Due to the nature of my work and in particular my spidey senses and sniffer dog nose for shadiness and assholery, I can pick up on very subtle early warning signs that someone else may construe as me being ‘negative’ or even ‘too sensitive’. For example, a few months back, I met up with a business acquaintance and when parting and discussing another meeting, they quipped that I’d better not be giving them any of that “sh*t” and pointed to my herbal tea. I felt slightly disconcerted. It niggled because it felt over the line. Now some people might think I’m crackers for thinking that but that warning turned out to be ridiculously true. It’s not about jumping all over what may be innocent or ill-thought-out comments – those are distinguishable from the stuff that blossoms into a problematic relationship. If you look at your mutual and healthy relationships you will see that these people don’t put you down and rarely cross the line and if they do, they feel bad about it and don’t keep repeating it. They make amends. Your instincts are correct when the behaviour you witnessed keeps showing up.
It’s the very subtle yet niggling stuff that sets the stage for what can turn into an untenable situation or even an abusive relationship. Watch out for Choppers with their insidious erosion of your self-esteem, self-image and even your perception of reality with their putdowns and passive aggressive mind effery. They don’t punch you in the face on day one or come out with something directly offensive but they do slip in a putdown where you think, Did he/she just say that?, Am I being too sensitive? or, That’s a bit over the line. Or they do/say something about someone or something else that when you look back on things further down the line, you realise that it was indicative of things to come.
Sometimes when attempting to decipher situations and wanting to be perceived as generous with our chances, we don’t consider what a person’s actions towards others may mean.
We don’t see it as something that can affect us…yet… which is why so many of us have been or are with people who behave pretty damn badly with others and now do so with us. We thought we’d be the exception to the rule or that what we picked up was irrelevant to a romantic relationship or could be overcome with our love and pleasing.
Classic examples are people who are discourteous to, for instance, restaurant staff or who rage at others right in front of you. One reader went on 4-5 dates with somebody who went absolutely ballistic while driving with her on all of the dates – warning sign of anger issues. Early jealousy and possessiveness is another classic – one ex had a hissy fit when he found out that my ex boyfriend was helping me with a project at uni – we’d been dating for four days when this happened and lo and behold, he was very controlling and jealous throughout the relationship.
People share with me how their partners or exes are racist / sexist / schemey etc., or and think, Why are you going out with somebody who hates your own race or another race, especially when you don’t feel the same way? Or, Why are you going out with someone who despises women/men? You don’t think it’s a bit strange that they’re embezzling their company?
The ‘problem’ with picking up on stuff and feeling uncomfortable is that we can fall into the trap of reading this as ‘judgmental’. We like to see the best in people. Hell – sometimes we like to make up the best in people. Sometimes we mistake assholery for ‘realness’ – Wow! They’re so into me that they’re super comfortable with being their bad selves!
It isn’t judgmental to register information or to compute it against our own set of values. It’s not judgmental to know the limits of a particular relationship; it’s relationship smart. The fact that we pick up on something doesn’t mean that we necessarily have to make a big ‘ole judgement or that it’s a permanent statement of the future or them – we’re just not that powerful remember – but what it does mean is that we need to be aware.
It can be frustrating when we see something first that others around us are slower to notice. It’s easy to assume that people don’t trust us or think badly of us in these situations when really, people have to find out how things are in their own way plus, sometimes we’re attuned to something due to the context of our connection/involvement with this person.
You can often find out the length and breadth of who someone is by being assertive and owning your right to say no and be yourself.
You also see different aspects once you exchange bodily fluids… There are so many who are baffled by friends who screwed them over once they became romantically involved or who feel wounded by knowing what someone’s really like due to having been romantically involved. Looking back, there were indicators within the friendship that they overlooked or indicators within that person’s other romantic relationships – they assumed things would be different because of the friendship. We also interact with people in a different capacity in romantic relationships and in an affair, the secrets and lies predisposes us to seeing a darker side. Romantic relationships also require a great deal of vulnerability and some people are allergic to intimacy.
I don’t always know exactly why something bothers me or why I’m attuned to something in the air but now that I’m willing to listen to me instead of just blithely and blindly careering around like a bull in a china shop, I’ve learned that it’s not a question of spending my life trying to work out if there’s a threat or not (unless there’s imminent danger). Basing your life around feeling under attack or warding off the possibility is pretty damn draining.
You don’t prepare to be run over each day or for your house to burn down; you learn to be street smart and safe and you put in a fire alarm, practice safety habits, and have some insurance. Listening to and looking out for you enables you to be ‘street smart’ and emotionally literate. You’re your own fire alarm with your boundaries which rely on self-awareness and self-knowledge plus knowing that you’re willing to step up for you is your insurance.
You might smell or see smoke before you see the fire – boundaries and code amber and red behaviour is like this. You learn to associate certain indicators and if it proves to be a false alarm or not a major issue, you can adjust to accommodate this. If it turns out there’s an issue, you don’t think the equivalent of, Feck. There’s a fire but I don’t want to appear judgmental or safety conscious so I’ll just stay where I am and see if it goes away or wait until my back’s against the wall.
Even if I don’t use ‘feedback’ immediately, I register it somewhere. Me (or you) registering that info won’t change a person or control their feelings and behaviour in the future or necessarily pave the way to being distrusting – it just helps us to keep our integrity and our own reality. It also may prove to have no use with the person in question but if we experience it elsewhere, we will know what it means or it will click with us.
Time and experience has also taught me that being ‘right’ isn’t important or even the goal in listening to ourselves; it’s paying attention to those little pieces of information and observing, rather than judging. Better to listen and either confirm or remove your concerns (finetuning and learning on the go) than to ignore and learn nothing. That’s harmful in itself.
Your thoughts?
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I know that I have thought when I have had a feeling about something that I thought I was being judgmental. When I meet my ex I thought I was being stuck up and felt bad because he had three baby mama’s and no job at the time. I rationalize that anyone can lose a job which they can, but I thought he had to be irresponsible to have three kids from three different women and the fact that he liked me so much, but I would not here from him from long periods of time. Well eleven months later,taking him to work back and forth after he finally got a job, while he made excuses that he was going to get a drivers licenses, blaming his baby mama’s for his odd cold behavior especially when I got pregnant, a miscarriage, being disappeared on, being lied to about a girl seven years younger then him being his classmate, and him reappearing 6 months after this texting me with corny texts about I know you can’t stand me! I have learned that I should pay more attention to my spider senses.
“Watch out for Choppers with their insidious erosion of your self-esteem, self-image and even your perception of reality with their putdowns and passive aggressive mind effery. They don’t punch you in the face on day one or come out with something directly offensive but they do slip in a putdown where you think, Did he/she just say that?, Am I being too sensitive? or, That’s a bit over the line”
As always, NML is spot on with her timing. I have not been on here in awhile. Been working on myself, re-enrolled in school and volunteering. I have grown a lot in the last 9 months.
Recently my ex-husband started dating a girl that I absolutely DETESTED in high school. He has made sure to drop a few insidious hints all under the guise of being nice, or fair. He doesn’t want me to feel “uncomfortable”, or even innocently asked me where I got my new bed. (Hint-hint–he’s having sex again–whoo hoo!)
At first I was so upset. He text me to let me know he had “accidentally” put they were in a relationship on FB, and he hadn’t meant to let me see it. After over three years apart, I was stunned at how angry and upset I became. I left him, right? He was an alcoholic, mean, cheap, and so passive-aggressive. He is the definition of a “Chopper”, and Assclown.
So why have I been so upset about his relationship with this girl from high school? Because she is really not that great. And he is still drinking. But my self-esteem took a nose dive. I felt it was a reflection on me that he is apparently, suddenly so nice, and because of her, and despite my 35 plus years with him, I still could not manage to “fix” him.
Upon reflection, I am seeing that I -(me, myself and I) are taking this new relationship as a negative at myself. I am not good enough, I am not as good as her, I could not make him be nice. When actually, he was a jerk, and probably always will be to some extent. Their relationship has NOTHING to do with me. I am a better person, stronger, and with or without someone, I always will be.
I needed to ground myself in reality, and just let it all go. I can’t control his actions now, anymore than I could when we were married. He loved to make me feel like a child, and is still trying to do it, but I can control my reactions, and refuse to accept his BS.
I’m not ready to see them together at any family functions (ie: grandson’s birthday party coming up), but I can work on staying positive, and keep moving ahead with loving me.
I’d appreciate anyone’s thoughts. I always come back to BR when I need a kick in the pants.
It has been a couple of weeks of feeling anxious, angry and sad. Part of that is because he always made me feel bad about myself, but I cannot allow him to do that. I
no_more, the worst thing you can do, from their perspective, is be your sweet self and give them your blessing. “Oh, you don’t need to explain or apologize! I think it’s great. I gotta run.”
The thrill for your ex husband is that he thinks he’s putting the screws to your emotions. Don’t let them see you sweat.
I don’t want to be a “beseech”, but I’m not going to go out of my way to be nice. Hard to strike a balance though.
My ex loves to appear nice. Good ole ###. But behind closed doors..he’s a terror.
Don’t ignore early signs girls!
He knows that you realize you are better off without him. He know he is not on your level and isn’t capable of being on your level. He is trying to hurt you by picking this girl you used to detest. He is upset but will act like his life is great now, and will not let you know he is upset. He is putting on the appearance of having a nice life, when in reality he is still the same shitty person he always was. Take heart in knowing that now you are free to move forward and have a fabulous life without being saddled with him. Enjoy your new freedom and run with it. Best wishes.
Thank you So True and dcd! I really needed this. I was feeling crappy and disregarded. This girl was a putz to me (as well as all her friends) in high school. I always felt so so SO insecure. My ex knew how I felt about them, and would always say; “you’re too sensitive”.
No- they were mean. End of story.
I deleted him as a friend on FB. He wasn’t my friend during the marriage, why am I pretending he is one now? He will always have an insensitivity issue. Doesn’t matter who he is with..the man lacks compassion. The night I moved out, he said; ” let me know where you end up”. Blahhhh!
Anyway..their thing is not my thing. Or, as I’ve adopted lately as my motto:
Not my circus
Not my monkeys.
Thx to all. Especially NML.
no-more – I suggest reminding yourself just what kind of man you are actually looking for – be brutally honest and imagine the best, for your eyes only – put it on paper in ink – for those weak moments and compare it with all the men that come in front of you.
Also write in ink a list of things your ex did, that didn’t make you feel good and keep them together somewhere you can find them easily in a moment where you are feeling bad about yourself because of him.
Now – what are YOU doing to get your life on track? I don’t mean are you going out dating and rubbing his face in it – I mean what are you doing for fun in your life? so that you don’t even know that he exists anymore?
oona,
Thank you for responding. I am really having a far more difficult time with this than I imagined. Maybe residual feelings I didn’t deal with three years ago?
At any rate, our daughter told me tonight he is getting really serious with her, and she is “weird-ed” out that we are still married, (legal separation for over two years)(and that status so I can maintain health insurance), and she wants him to get divorced.
Who is she to decide that?
I have not heard this from him, but he IS A JERK. And logically I know he has not changed all that much, but it is playing on my emotions: why couldn’t I make him change? Drink less? Be nice? Why was he an a**hole to me?
Factually, I know I am better off, I have been for two years, but emotionally, I am feeling anxious.
I am going to school, I am interviewing for a better job, I am NOT in a hurry to date or get married again.
I REALLY want to get to that point where HE DOESN’T exist for me anymore. He was narcissistic, cruel, a drunk, abusive and emotionally distant. He withheld sex, money and kindness. So she can have my sloppy seconds, I just don’t want HER dictating how we handle things.
Am I backtracking for some reason?
No More,
I don’t understand the reason you give for remaining married to a man you loathe and whom you recognise as bad for you. Is the health insurance issue to result in you remaining married for the rest of your lives? What if you meet someone and wish to marry, what if your separated husband wishes to remarry? The advice many women receive here, and this also happens to be something I actively follow, is – don’t get involved with separated men, if they won’t get divorced or are in the process of doing everything necessary to formally sever the tie in a timely manner then whether they know it or not they are not EA. As far as I can see this applies to you as a separated woman. It is good you are not ‘out there’ dating as you are EU.
Clearly you are still attached to your ex and questions such as ‘why should she (his gf) get to decide if he gets divorced’ aren’t really your concern are they? You are keeping your head and heart in a toxic situation with these thoughts IMO. It is up to you…if you want to move on, then you will need to actively commit to that at some point. Getting divorced may be a first step.
p.s. Sounds like your separated husband’s gf has some healthy instincts kicking in if she is “weired out” by the fact he is still married. I don’t blame her. I know my old self would have been (I would never allow myself to end up being the gf of a ‘separated’ man these days.
No More- I’m sorry but I’m having a hard time understanding why you’re upset that his gf is someone you loathed in high school? My ex – bf married my now former bff who I had known since elementary school. In fact, I knew both of them since elementary school. When I moved on, I moved on regardless of how long I’d known them or what my past feelings were for them in elementary school. I agree with lizzp that you still seem quite attached to your separated husband. I suspect you’d find any flimsy reason to not like any girlfriend he may have.
Thank you all for the responses. It took me about 10 years to actually leave my ex. Old people-pleasing patterns. I finally left because he was becoming physically abusive, and usually passed out by 6pm every night.
The still married part is because I cannot afford health insurance, my current job doesn’t offer it, and I’m working to a degree that will enable me to get a better job, and benefits.
In addition, the ex has dated other women, and that didn’t bother me AT ALL. This woman and her friends have always been unkind to me. I think, after mulling all this over, I’m actually reliving teenage angst and insecurities. And people change, maybe she’s a sweetie now. Who knows? I didn’t want him back, I just didn’t want her to have him.
Having said that, re-reading my journals, BR, and talking with a VERY smart friend the last week, I think I am back on track. I was embracing pain again, and thinking less of myself.
You are right, his stuff isn’t my stuff, and it never will be. I have recognized I am EU on several levels, and need to break free of that.
Yesterday, I inquired to several insurance companies for benefits, increased my hours at work so I can afford it, and initiated the final divorce action.
It was a set back in terms of how far I’ve come from the needy, insecure and miserable person I was 3 years ago, but I think I’m grabbing the bull by the horns, so to speak, and continuing on my path again. I was derailed, but my anxiety is gone, and I feel back to normal.
Thank you for the support, strong, honest opinions, and needed input.
lizzp,
Absolutely spot on. And good for her. She can have him, and more power to her if she can make him a better man. My children will only benefit from that, and THAT’S the important thing.
No more toxicity for me. Thanks for the astute comments. It helped.
No More,
She can’t ‘make him a better man’. Only he could ever do that, if he is capable and then only through great effort and awareness.
The changes you mention you are initiating above sound wonderfully healthy. I hope you are feeling extremely proud of your integrity, strength and capabilities. Virtual hugs and warm wishes.oo0
Thank you lizzp – I have been reading over these specific posts every day.
Virtual hugs back – you’ve helped more that you know. xx
I think – No-more – that it is a shock to see someone you convinced yourself was going to be with you forever – actually with someone else – let alone with someone who didn’t make you feel good when you were younger – you already feel bad enough.
Getting over someone does take longer than you think sometimes, things can simmer under the surface without you being fully aware of them. I had the same thing – thought I had processed everything, stopped the daily wailing, then wham! saw him with another woman, walking a puppy together and even though I never want to have a conversation let alone be with that man again in a month of Sundays – I could not bare the thought she had what I had wanted and was refused – what was wrong with me?!!!! = Totally irrational thinking! but – actually a blessing – because it has given me the biggest kick up the back**** to go out and start to get my life together.
I still was not focused on me – I was just temporarily stopping being focusing on him momentarily, that’s all, but not replacing it with strong good things for myself. Go on No-more! you cannot control others – the only thing you can have control over is yourself and whether your needs get fulfilled or not – is up to you – not your ex /semi ex /or semi-semi ex’s girlfriend – he has blatently proved he has absolutely zero ability to make you feel as you really deserve to feel. Love. Acknowledge you feel bitter and unhappy about it and do something good for yourself with your energy… or wallow.
Oona,
Thank you..you really write well, and succinctly.
Definitely done wallowing. My friend said, “let that younger you pout a bit, but then go shine. It’s time.”
And she’s right! So I’m off to shine.
Thank you!
Just wait six months till he’s dropped the act with her. Then you’ll remember all over again why you had to leave.
Kriss,
I think she’ll have him at the alter shortly from the sounds of things.
I guess I just don’t want to deal with someone from high school that plagued me, and the thought of hiding from them infuriates me.
Suggestions?
no-more, your story touched me for some reason
– maybe because i’ve been in a similar situation recently. you mentioned your ex being a narcissist; i think it’s good you recognized this. and i’m sure you have read all about how they engage in smear campaigns, lying to others to make YOU look like the crazy one. he probably bad-mouthed others when the two of you were together. so at some level, i’m guessing you’re imagining the conversations he’s having with her, and feeling like she’s got access to your private information. he’s giving her power and you have no defense, which has to be infuriating! all i can suggest is to stay strong and trust the force that one day she will come to learn how he really is. she may even realize he was probably lying about you. OR she might end up still being a total B like she was in school. in either case, you can only control your own actions. i know you know this. you just have to keep reminding yourself that you left for a reason, and if they want to be aholes together, good for them, at least you’re not stuck with him anymore. i’m sorry your children are having to be involved – that will probably be the hardest part. anyway, i just wanted to add another voice and say i understand. all the best to you!
Last week I tweeted this person I’d worked with last summer, a guy who has his own consulting firm, to see if wanted to have coffee. Within a couple tweets he had invited me to travel, on his dime, to a four-day conference that was very similar to the one we’d worked on together. “All you need to do to earn your keep,” he said, “is to speak French to our delegates. I don’t have any francophones on my team.” I’m unemployed; I’m looking to make new connections; I thought I might want to work for him; I said yes.
Being brought out seemed very generous. I wondered why he would pay to bring me across the country. Once I got to the conference and began hanging around – yes, I could see that my French skills were useful, but I couldn’t understand how a guy running his business would really foot the bill just so I could speak French to delegates. I couldn’t put my finger on it.
The weird feeling escalated when I learned from his colleague that he had broken up with his partner since the last time I saw him. I started wondering if he was attracted to me, maybe showing off his work to me, and getting to know me. I already find this guy attractive. But the idea that he would mix business and dating together felt weird. I knew his last gf had worked with him.
At the end of the conference we were supposed to have a beer (to finally have that coffee date I’d originally gotten in touch about). He blew off the plan that same night and asked to meet me in the morning. That felt weird, disappointing, rude, but I thought, well, that’s because I’m attracted. I can’t know for sure that he is. The breakfast meeting the next morning felt a lot like a date. We talked about family a bit, he told me he’d broken up with his ex. He did absolutely nothing untoward, never crossed a line with me, but when it was done I felt like I’d been looked over and either didn’t pass the test, or indulged, or I don’t know what.
At the end of the conference, as is the norm, a bunch of us who’d hung out for three days friended each other on facebook. This included members of this man’s team with whom I’d now worked. I added him, but he never added me as a friend. This from a guy who is in communications, who is on his phone non-stop, who will report on what’s happening on FB at the dinner table. Blanked by a guy who has just paid to have me come across the country … for what?
Then it occurred to me: the whole conference was a youth event in which visible minority representation was a huge talking point. It was a conscious design in terms of the delegates invited to have a high percentage of aboriginal and minority attendees. But my ‘friend’ had not invited any women of color to speak at the event, had a full roster of white panellists balanced by one male aboriginal speaker, and his own event team is all white (five men, one woman).
When his colleagues introduced me to delegates as “one of the team,” I was like, wow, are they trying to recruit me? Then he asked me to come to another event back in Toronto. I was like, wow, why? But something felt off. I was like, how can he foot the bill to bring me out, seem to entertain a kind of sexual tension, invite me to another event, but not want to friend me?
Oh wait: it looks good to have me there representing his team.
It’s cheaper to invite a brown french-speaking woman on a trip as if you’re doing her a big favor, and present your company to an audience as though you’re inclusive, than to actually hire to be pro-actively and visibly inclusive. When I considered that this might be his motivation, all the behaviour made sense. So I’m pretty sure I just got used to make a company look more diverse than it is.
But like NML says, it’s just about registering this information. The first couple of comments this guy made about people with “artistic temperaments” (I’m a professional artist) or telling me not to make a certain facial expression (!?) were small, but “niggled because it felt over the line.” It took me a few days to figure out what all the weird feelings were telling me, and maybe then I’m not even ‘right.’ But knowing that I have taken inventory of the times I felt subtly disrespected or that I wasn’t getting the full story, and figuring out what I think I’m seeing and then acting accordingly (I’ve cancelled the FB request, for example, and am not pursuing my original intention to ask him about working for him), makes me feel like I am in my power and able to handle whatever this world throws at me.
That’s pretty interesting, Magnolia.
I don’t know exactly what your work situation is, but what about the other people at that conference, the ones who may actually be interested in your talents?
Also, that’s pretty brazen and shameless of that guy, as if you were too dim to eventually catch on.
Could it be that he really is only interested in your skills?
In all likelihood he is both a jerk and a fool, but then the world is full of them… Anyway, I think there is nothing wrong with using those trips for networking.
I think the problem is that you invested waaay too much energy into that guy. He’s quite obviously not worth it (neither personally nor professionally). I’ve been guilty of the same. Healthy people don’t make you jump through hoops, healthy people don’t dangle carrots in front of you, and healthy people don’t put you down.
If we learn to keep our distance, it should be possible
to interact with most of those people in a professional, superficial manner.
Something else I’ve learned is that, whenever I feel that somebody (usually male) might be the “magic answer” to all of my problems, something is “off”. Even if a job offer was on the table, it would be pretty mundane compared to our fantasies.
Same with any potential “Mr. Right”. I’ve been staying away from the dating scene for three years (!) now, but it took me all those years to realize that a mate with similar values would be just that: A mate with similar values. Not a permanent solution to any of my other worries, such as financial insecurity (yes, they may have money, but what if they leave us or die?), the fear of being rejected, the fear of not being good enough and so on. I would still have to address those problems by myself.
dcd, that’s the point she’s making. He was interested in Magnolia’s skill in making his workplace look better than it is to a bunch of people he’ll be doing business with, and Magnolia knows it.
dcd, it *could* very well be; I don’t think I’ll ever know for sure because I doubt he would admit it if my ticking the minority box is indeed his main, or even significant, motivation. I told the story because it’s one where my gut tells me there’s more going on than this person let on.
The last time I felt this way was when my ex-bf, when we were first going out, wanted to take me on a big trip and was spending money on me. It felt like too much, but I ignored that feeling and told myself, hey! You’re worth it! Why question why someone wants to be generous with you?
In the end the bf was the type who was happy to spend any kind of $$ to make his experience better (and at first, that meant seducing a new woman) but got abusive when expected to give emotional or otherwise genuine support. That ex-bf was always up for paying to decorate himself with me when he was going to be seen in public.
EllyB, I did invest a lot of energy and was obsessing. I wouldn’t call him a full-on jerk – lots of people think they’re being generous when what they’re doing is tokenizing. I’m sure he thinks he did me a big favor, and it would be nice if we all just assumed my French skills somehow trump the skills of the local Francophone facilitators he had already hired, but that’s just not possible.
Anyway, like NML says, it doesn’t have to be a permanent statement; if I’m wrong, then I’m sure there will be opportunities for me to see that. I can stay open to being wrong without discounting my experience so far.
During the conference, I in fact got pulled in to do a day of facilitation because one of the facilitators wasn’t managing well. I did a great job, but he didn’t offer to pro-rate me on what the facilitators got paid, even though facilitating was not part of what he said I’d be doing. So he got that for free. People-pleasing me was like, “Oh look! I got to show you I’m a good facilitator!” whereas more seasoned me was like, “Hey, I should ask you to pay me” (but I didn’t because I feel like I agreed to the I’m-doing-you-a-favour scenario). Sigh.
While all this was going down, the new Head of my old department, the guy who is basically my key reference-letter writer if I am to apply for any more academic jobs, sent me an email telling me of a dream he had where I was stretching / lying above him / having an appendange “unfurl from between [my] legs.” References to strap-ons and “six inches” closed his remarks. I wrote back trying to keep it light and saying he shouldn’t have sent such a note and don’t send any more stuff like that. But I am very disappointed to have him put me in that position, and have no idea if he will continue to be a reference for me.
It hasn’t been a great week for feeling as though my male colleagues take me seriously!
Magnolia – I’m going to be honest.
NOTHING IS FREE – NOTHING! You will ALWAYS pay for it in some way – no matter what they tell you – they know you will be grateful to them and they will probably get back more than they ever give in reality. They bank on it.
It is YOUR job to weedle out whether what they offer really forfills YOUR NEEDS DIRECTLY.
The money and trinkets and references are not worth a hair on your head but they are able to blind you with it because in reality YOU DO NOT VALUE YOURSELF, so you mistakenly feel these things are ‘worth it’. YOU HAVE A NEED FOR SELF RESPECT – your time and care IS PRICELESS!!! and can never be got back once given.
Reference – find someone else or volunteer to someone,that you KNOW you can respect, for an independent reference – free from sexual abuse! – and in setting it up – FOLLOW EVERY INSTINCT OR SPIDEY SENSE OR NOSE SNIFFING SENSE YOU HAVE. Good luck.
Ps In my experience, if you play shady – you get shady. Next time you want a job – ask them directly how to get a job in their company? ‘A coffee’ – for a chat about a job – is not entirely honest, direct or upfront and immediately leaves you open to abuse because of its ambiguous social?/business? nature. If you are ambiguous about your needs don’t expect other people to understand what they are, let alone meet them.
So it looks like the guy you mention framed using up YOUR time and attention with a “free” trip (it’s not free – you had to rearrange your schedule and use YOUR precious time, which is more precious than money). So, he was able to manipulate free work out of you and make HIMSELF look good, when in reality he’s too cheap to hire someone.
You were doing HIM all kinds of favors.
Some books that have helped my with boundaries and assertiveness have been “No Is a Complete Sentence” and “The Secret Laws of Attraction” by Talane Miedaner (it’s not really a “law of attraction” book).
Man, that egotist manipulated you into thinking you owed HIM something!
Don’t wait for people to ask about your worth, on the job or in relationships. Know what you’re willing to walk away from . Put it on paper next to the mate list that someone mentioned upthread.
Oona is right. We have to raise our personal standards (knowing what we will walk away from) while lowering our expectations of others at the same time.
People can’t read your mind and if they could, they wouldn’t care about your needs generally because they’re too busy getting their own met.
By and large, people don’t give a **** about your needs, that’s why you have to politely by firmly state them.
SOOOOO perfectly said…thank you!
Looks like I’ve got a new list to create, in addition to the ones I made of my core values and how to ID toxic people before they trap me!
Yes you protect yourself best by really knowing yourself.
Hi, Magnolia. Yes, he did want you as window dressing it seems. He paid for the trip out of “CYA” and maybe a little guilt over his dishonesty with you. I mean, if you complain about being used he’ll point out the “trip” was free.
But, yes, he was not forthcoming about his true reason for wanting you at the event.
If the romantic disappointment is too stinging, then walking away is good. But…if he needs you…and you want something from him, something more tangible, like being PAID along with his footing the expenses…maybe there’s a business deal that can be mutually rewarding. Quid pro quo – something for something.
@Magnolia
Clever, clever girl!
The devil is in the detail.
Your story inspires me!
Well done Magnolia you worked it out & yes it is the right thing to do for your own self worth & empowerment to say no to this vial man. 🙂
Nat, Your sense of humor cracks me up! Spidey senses and sniffer dog! Love it!
What you told us here should be taught in high schools.
I am happily single, and I now use my spidey and sniffer dog…. No second chances ( to disrespect me), I pay attention to everything and place new dates “on probation” IF I even get the sense of a yellow flag. No time to waste on the multitude of messed up people, and not letting them into my life… Thanks again!
Three Baby mama’s & no job is a RED FLAG people. Run, do not walk, to your nearest EXIT!
Thank you, Angel!
I’m with you angelface and yes it would concern me but I do know a woman with three children from different fathers and yes it did indicate a problem she had with relationships but she got genuine help after the third one and has now been in a secure and loving relationship for years as a result. Not easy for her but she wanted it and went out and got it – so it is possible.
I’ve always noticed things, and learned early in my childhood to “not see” them. Somehow, though, part of me made mental pictures–took notes, as it were–and there came a time when all of that part’s pictures and notes came up when I was ready to see their meaning. For several years I had to redefine my entire sense of identity, because so much of that identity had sprung from my having made up lots of good things about most of the adults around me. They were nice, they were good, their subtly abusive attitudes were just…uh…oh, nevermind!
That was my childhood. After turning the corner on that, though, I developed an absolutely wonderful, amazing technique to honor the promise I made to myself to never ignore my intuitions again.
I write in a spiral notebook everything I feel and believe about a given strange interaction. I don’t worry about punctuation or paragraphs–I just let everything spill onto the page. This is one of three vital steps. The second is that I must stop after three pages–this forces me to focus and to get all that stuff down before I come to the end of my allotted pages. The third: I MUST tear up and throw away the pages as soon as I’m done writing.
One of the elements of not paying attention to my intuitions and then recognizing that they were all accurate is that when I get a weird feeling, I want someone to know about it! I want affirmation and agreement and morale boosting. This means that as I’m writing, I’m imagining “someone”–“them,” whoever–reading my pages and “getting it.” Understanding me. Facing their own off-ness and doing something about it.
But if I tear up those pages, I know I really am totally free both to be honest with myself and to have to work it out, just me and God. You wouldn’t believe how relieving this whole process is. It’s been a life-saver for many years now. It builds self-sufficiency, dignity, self-trust, and clears the decks sooo well.
I was totally with you until you got to the tear up and throw away bit. I got my technique from the Jane Campion book. Everything the same – writing out your feelings until you get to the end of three pages – then on the back you write all the negative things you said about yourself and put a positive repost next to it.
I find as I write, it is cathartic but also helps ME to actually hear my own voice – sod what anyone else will hear – and then I use the result to work out what action to take based on actually connecting with myself better and my spidey sense and nose sniffing instinct….
Oona and Erin- Thank you for the ideas! 🙂 I’m going to try both of them as the tear – and – throw away may work for one situation but Oona’s (Campion’s) technique may work for a different situation.
Coming from a culture and parents who taught me “its not nice to judge people, everyone has their unique journey”, I believed that it makes me a bad person to find flaws in someone esp in pesonal situations. But Ive realised and well with this post, now, super realised that it is OK to have these realisations. I am a decent person with good judgement and wouldnt be unfair with no prejudice so I know now that the times Ive felt a flag come up, I tell myself “Lily,make a note of that, come back to question and learn more. This needs investigation”.
I also seem to have a highly sensitive “weird feeling” system, Lol, perhaps my gut. It knows when something isnt right and the signals go crazy and get super strong…so much that if I ignore it, it makes me physically sick. Now, I listen to it the first time and if it is not fear based but actual “something doesnt add up here..”, I take action or at the least, ask question to understand more. Like AngleFace mentioned, I put the boys on probation until I know more and will not proceed (generally but the time the get out of probation, they’ve done so many amber/red flag activities that its OUT for them).
There are SO many messed up people out there, waiting to drag you in into their nets. I sometimes find it heartbreaking to see what they do to you (and done to me).Sometimes finding the strength to get back out there is hard. But the fact that their behaviour disgusts me, shows me Im not one of them. Win.
Being aware of a person’s behavior and making a decision on how to proceed regarding your own future actions is not judgmental. It’s smart. It’s self-protective. If you don’t protect yourself, nobody will.
Thanks for another great post Natalie! This site is a total godsend!! I definitely have been guilty of ignoring warning signs in the past.. Little tiny red flags that didn’t seem that important but still stood out. They always turn into something else.
I am one month NC with a man who I loved who treated me like crap near the end. This site has been such a blessing. First in helping me understand his behaviour (to the extent it’s understandable!). And not go crazy as he was pulling all the classic AC moves because I could recognize them for what they were. And then for helping me stay strong as I attempted to go no contact. I could never have done it without you and this site. Thank you so much!
Isn’t it great? :>
Another great post and a timely reminder. The problem I’ve had over the years is that having your spidey senses (I call it my radar system) working away can cause a kind of information overload in some situations. I’m super-sensitive to vibes and behaviour but was raised by a pair of totally screwed up, aggressive, intrusive, disrespectful parents. They messed with my head and that of my brother and sister too but all four of them have always refused to acknowledge or discuss things, unlike me who had the courage to say “this isn’t right” – only I did it by screaming and shouting which led them to treating me like I was a mental case and the sole cause of all the family’s problems. Overloading on bad vibes and crappy behaviour meant I long ago got into the habit of putting up a wall of chatter and laughter and all those other denying things that help protect you from the invisible intrusions and shady behaviour that muddle up your brain and drain your energy. And because of this wall of superficial lalala lovely stuff that I was putting up, not seeming to judge, pretending I wasn’t hurt, denying the existence of other’s shady behaviour (until I exploded!), I missed, ignored and denied a thousand warning signs from friends and boyfriends and got myself into some dire situations with some horrible people and suffered greatly because of it. I also didn’t know that I had a choice when I presented with a warning sign – such as “move away”, or “back off from this person”, or “end the relationship pdq and leave”. In the last six months with the help of this website and Natalie’s wisdom and generosity (and courses!), I have made BIG progress. I cannot agree enough with Nat’s post here that you need your spidey senses and sniffer dog nose working to register when something isn’t right and I agree with Angelface that this stuff should be taught in schools, from Primary upwards. I worry though for those children who have been overloaded with crap who, like I did, go into profound denial or put up a wall of superficial chatter unconsciously, simply to protect their fragile selves, and who don’t know they have choices that they have the right to exercise. When you’re a child you really don’t have much in the way of choices but I would love to see all children being helped in schools and at home to understand this stuff, and to give them a chance of a normal, fulfilling, satisfying life where they have the confidence to listen to their spidey senses, and make good decisions for themselves.
Well said, Natalie!
We women are way too forgiving of things that could potentially bit us in the behind later.
The trap I fell in during my dating years is that I would date a guy, notice code ambers, then decide to pay attention. Moved on, more code ambers, and after about 10 code ambers, people were telling me I was being “too picky” and that “nobody’s perfect”. I even convinced myself that “Hey, who am I to judge? I’m not perfect either!”
Then, we end up “settling” for the 11th guy (in spite of the code ambers) and look back on the code ambers, regretting not having listened to them.
Yes AMM it is difficult – Are they really a red when we are seeing amber? or are they an amber when we are seeing red? Or are WE the amber or red?
As a general rule of thumb if a person makes me feel good for who I am without any ‘changing for them for better or worse’ issues set by myself or them – then I usually find they are a goodun for me and worth setting real boundaries with which they generally try hard not to break due to wanting me to like or love them. If I have done bad by them then I am the first to feel it and do something about it when I am able. These people are special to me and are not the norm, due to me only recently beginning to recognise what they feel like. This is how we are able to be imperfect and human and yet real friends and lovers at the same time.
OOOO one last point – If you aren’t confident in showing them your vulnerablities and your ****ups – I would suggest this is a red flag in itself because you have not got full communication with this person – as your true self.
Yep the real last point ;-> It is not necessarily a bad thing to recognise you cannot be fully vulnerable with someone – it may be because you have a good sub conscious instinct to protect yourself – because they should really be a red flag for you…
Code ambers & settling are enlightening words for me & just what I need to hear. I having been seeing John for over 2 years & broke up with him 3 times….but I am lonely & he knows it (single mum) he gives mixed signals & I am now going the chicken way out…ie making excuses that I can’t see him until I get the courage to say over for good. So this week around work & family I am going to join new social groups & start having fun on my own. He does all the flattery & 1 of many red flags is; “My ex asked to marry me & I felt pushed into saying yes…I am a stubborn person.” Obviously that was just one of his ways of letting me know marriage is not on his agender, although he tells me he thinks of ‘our future together’. I need to get away from this man pronto!
Wendy! Confused! Isn’t he cryptically/badly telling you he IS a pushover/submissive? So he will say whatever you want him to, rather than what he actually wants to really say – that is what would concern me – anyone who can’t find a way to communicate their real needs and feelings on such an important topic – directly to you – is seriously emotionally unavailable.
Has he learnt from this lesson? Is he future faking with you (see Natalies older posts on future faking) and you allowing it/encouraging it based on your loneliness?!! Your move to new social groups is a seriously, seriously a good idea – stay on BR also and keep talking…confusion is never a good sign.
Did this man have children with the woman he wouldn’t marry Wendy?
This line in particular hit home: “Looking back, there were indicators within the friendship that they overlooked or indicators within that person’s other romantic relationships – they assumed things would be different because of the friendship.” I was good friends with a man for 3 years before anything romantic happened. As soon as something happened, he made me feel worthless by ignoring me and treating me like one of his meaningless university conquests. Of course I let it slide because I was overjoyed that we finally got together and that we had this strong friendship, yet the disrespect continued. I tried so hard to be fun, sexy, pleasing… Nothing worked. He finally said “I have nothing to give.” This included friendship. That’s when it finally hit me that he was the one who was worthless and I rarely think about him anymore.
When he said “I have nothing to give” he was talking about himself. Not “I have nothing to give YOU, but I can give to others”. ACs know that they are dry wells. Any appearance of generosity or reciprocity is a transaction, an investment that they expect a return on, but YOU better give of yourself indefinitely, he expects it. He gets his needs met, but if you bring up one of yours, you’re “needy”.
He don’t need to clingin’ vines!
oo lovely analogy – clinging vines…
Right on. Love your writing!!! 🙂
Trust your gut. I wasted two years making excuses for a very self-centered mean-spirited controller and still have self-esteem issues. Us nice girls need to be alert to mean people that take advantage of our kindness. Saying things like “I love you but I would love you more if you lost weight”. I was a size 8. A marriage proposal with another subject two clause-weight comment. Needless to say I did not marry this man but unfortunately it was a time in my life turning 40 that I was at the biological-clock time bomb going off. Great to have these blogs to ‘vent’!
Oh honey, you’re just not that desperate. A weight clause? NOT SEXY! NEXT!
Judy – that is so superficial. One time mine said I have no problem with your body…just don’t gain any more weight.
You did so well to get out of that!!!! Imagine having a child with him! – ‘oh your not quite tall enough, small enough, intelligent enough, kind enough, strong enough, GRATEFUL enough’ for the next end years of its life – let alone yours. Insidious!
Three and a half years ago I let myself be taken in by a charming, very bright man who wanted his US Residency. My first red flag should have been when he refused to open my car door on our first date and then began defending why he was right in his actions. Throughout our subsequent marriage he did nothing but control the time and energy he put into the relationship, despite my requests to honor my needs and love for him. Oh, he said he loved me and would be there for me but never wanted to make plans for a real future together living in the same home. Lo and behold, 3 days after he received his Permanent Residency, he used a heated conversation between us as his exit strategy and disappeared. That was over 2 months ago…no calls, no coming around in person…just nasty emails continuing to defend his feelings of being “victimized” by me? Such a crock. I filed for divorce the end of July and haven’t looked back. NC is easy when I focus on the good life I have (and have always had in my small town). Good riddance to AC/EUMs who refuse to do their work and treat people with complete disrespect. Thank you for the opportunity to warn others about paying attention to the red flags. I will never give any man “the benefit of the doubt” again.
“My first red flag should have been when he refused to open my car door on our first date and then began defending why he was right in his actions.”
Not sexy! Next!
This reminds me of an incident with the ex – we both got out of the car to go to a building and he didn’t wait for me. Just walked ahead with me following behind. It wasn’t unpleasant, he wasn’t in a huff or anything, no big deal, right? So I didn’t think anything of it at the time, it was such a small, insignificant action – but looking back now I can see that it said volumes about what he really thought of me. Pay attention everyone. It’s in these small actions that they reveal who they really are.
I agree Wiser.
Last guy in my life who I am trying to get over did this very type of thing.
He would always walk in front of me with no awareness of where I was. I don’t think he was doing it on purpose in the moment but it showed an utter lack of care and regard for me. It was not on his mind to make sure I was near him, to open a door for me, to put a hand on the small of my back. (Ahh how we girls love that!)In a nutshell he was not protective of me, therefore not in love with me if relationship books and experts have it right when they say a man wants to protect the people they love. I think we all want to protect the people we love, men and women. Little things like this, show a lack of that quality.
It is likely that I will be moving to the same city as this man soon. I keep going up and down about whether to let him know that or not. We are not talking at the moment because he basically cut me off as our casual relationship began to naturally get more serious. This went on and off for a year.
The relationship was casual, and I was treated casually in the little things like this and the big things like commitment. When we are able to look back, and even better catch behaviour like this in the moment we are able to see much more realistically where we stand.
“…In a nutshell he was not protective of me, therefore not in love with me if relationship books and experts have it right when they say a man wants to protect the people they love…Little things like this, show a lack of that quality.“ W.O.W….just. WOW! Until I saw this, I NEVER put that together before! The last two men…er…”adult CHILDREN” I’ve been with (incl. the one I am in the process of getting rid of now) have gone out of their way to recklessly endanger my safety on numerous occasions, and the current one, to even deliberately harm me. Hmmm…think there’s a problem here?
Brenda,
You need to start to understand your patterns and who you’re choosing. This is not a coincidence, that you’re ending up with these people.
Thank you Allison! Working on that and think I may have cracked the code at last 😀
Brenda,
That’s great!!!
I responded to Marshmallow below, and thought the comment applied to you as well.
Have you looked into co dependency to understand who you are choosing. Natalie has also written about the Florence Nightingale syndrome. I would see if you can locate some of her articles.
Thanks again! Sounds like codependency is the next thing I need to dive into and unpack now that I have tackled boundaries and core values….
Boo and Others- Mr. Casual and I were walking down the street late one night and he did hold my hand protectively when we passed a couple of shady-looking men. An ex – bf used to ride a motorcycle. I couldn’t go near it without helmet, fluorescent jacket, denim jeans, and boots or thick tennis shoes. Neither of these men was in love with me. You can read into it as possible character traits to look for, but please don’t read it as a sure sign that he has feelings for you.
Very true, Wiser. It’s the small stuff that unconsciously gets our guts roiling with that uneasy feeling. However, I have found that some men naturally have manners, some do not so the significance of some actions vary widely. Holding open doors, for instance; some men do this out of habit or because they are always ingratiating themselves with women. My last stalker and the AC was big on this but it meant nothing. A dude that at one time cared a lot but was incompatible never opened a door, walked ahead of me, lots of seemingly uncaring stuff but it was because he was never taught to have manners.
I need some advice, please. Me and my ex have been on-off for almost 10 years, I know :(. We’ve been broken up for the past year. 3-weeks ago we started talking again. He told me he wasn’t ruling out getting back together but he didn’t want to jump back into anything and either did I. He was telling me how I was supposed to be his forever and that he never wanted to get married but he would have put a ring on my finger. In the 3-weeks that we spoke everything was on his terms. I was the only one reaching out and putting in effort for us to see each other … he would see me, but never be the first to initate contact. I had slept over one night and b/c I was already there he had invited me to spend the next couple of days with him, took to a movie, we went out for breakfast, it felt nice. However, I had called him up on something one night and he lashed out at me saying it’s not my place to ask him any questions, that he could do what he wanted, etc. and that we didn’t need to see each other every couple of days. So he basically wanted the relationship without the relationship.I had to go to his place that day to pick up stuff I left there, he answered the door looking like he drank the whole liquor store the night before. His drinking on the weekends is out of control. I asked if we could talk and he said he was going back to bed and shut the door in my face. I got a text from him a couple days later apologizing for what he did but that he can’t live under someone’s supervision and having to explain himself (but he could do it to me). I called b/c there’s a few things I wanted to say, he was busy but said he’d call later. I told him not to worry to just call me the following day b/c I wasn’t feeling well and was going to bed. The next day/night came, no call.I texted the next day b/c I was more hurt I didn’t get a chance to say what I wanted to. I didn’t want to say it by text. I just bascially said that I didn’t receive a call and should I just assume he doesn’t want to hear what I have to say. He responded and said he doesn’t want to do this again and that it’s unfair to the both of us. I didn’t respond. What’s unfair is that he would come back into my life to push me away again. I know I let him, but I guess I give him too much credit after not speaking to him for awhile thinking he’s changed. He threw it all on me (like he always has) saying I’m the problem. It hurts because I can’t tell you how much I’ve done for this guy. My birthday is coming up and I know he’ll text me. I have never not said thank you (it’s not the person I am to ignore a nice gesture) … but at this point, I don’t even think he deserves even that. Advice?
He doesn’t want to get married. He doesn’t initiate contact with you. He lashes out at you, and says that he doesn’t have to answer to you. His drinking is out of control. He throws everything all on you and says that you are the problem. He plays with your feelings and comes back into your life so that he can reject you. This is not how a person who loves and values you behaves. You deserve so much more than this. You don’t owe him anything. Go no contact with this loser, and keep on reading this site. These people are so predictable. Most of us havebeen through this with some flip-flopping fool of a man or woman. Talking to them about how they hurt you is useless. They don’t care. You cannot change someone like him, or get them to understand. You start healing when you stop engaging with them.
Advice: Run! Go No Contact from now on. You owe him nothing if he contacts you in any way on your birthday, or at any other time. It’s not about being rude or polite, it’s about protecting yourself from him and his manipulations.
Ten years is more than enough to spend on someone who, by his actions, is not showing you any love whatsoever. Any good times you might have had with him in the past don’t make up for his behaviour now.
There are much better ways to spend your time than waiting for his calls. Focus on your career, take up a new hobby, get out and meet some nice people. Anything but thinking about him!
Broken, ten years is a long time to hope for something better. Please try to.stay in reality and see he is not.the guy for
you or anyone else. If.he wishes you.a Happy Birthday do.not respond. Believe me,when I.say I know how hard it is, but you.should.block him on your.phone. His contact just hurts you over and over again. I.am.trying to get in reality after my assclown of three yrs, dumped.me. I.keep telling myself thank God I didn’t stay in for 6 years or 10 years, it still.hurts,
though. I know that I am mourning who I wish he was, not who he actually was. I am in therapy, and.trying to stay busy and fighting the urge to contact him every single day. I do feel better than I did a couple weeks ago and I know in time I will be okay. Don’t waste one more second of your precious time with this guy, Broken. you do not owe him any politeness or courtesy. He.is.not.texting/calling Happy Birthday because he’s a nice guy. He’s.just trying to string you along.
I am sorry Broken. I have learned so much from BR. And to put it shortly; do you want to play games with this buffoon for the NEXT ten years? If you do, keep being nice. Remember you’re always going to be ruled by his emotions, schedule and passive-aggressive BS. Realize that you can say thank you a thousand times, but he is still going to make you tow the line. Ick.
Pick you honey. Don’t let him break you. Go no contact. Stop riding his crazy-mobile.
Read what you wrote out loud. What would you tell a friend who was going thru this situation?
Good luck Hon!
Broken- “On & off” for 10 yrs. says everything right there. The guy sounds emotionally unstable. You’re not obligated to respond should he send you a birthday text or whatever. It may feel weird to act out of your normal but, as a conscious creature with the ability to introspect and, thus, change your course of action, you CAN create a new normal. It’s time to be the subject in your own life instead of a passive chess piece in his.
Broken,
I’m sorry to say this, but if it hasn’t worked in ten years. IT WILL NEVER WORK!!
There are so many red flags here:
He would have put a ring on your finger He never did
Everything is his way
You were the only one making an effort
You’re not allowed to asked any questions – Does this sound like someone wanting to have any future with you
He’s getting many benefits, while you get nothing
Alcoholic
He didn’t follow through with call – clearly showing you’re not important to him
Sweetie, please do not waste any more time or energy on this guy. Ten years is enough! I’m thinking that he has never been there for you, and is incapable of anything substantial.
Time to block all forms of contact,so that your are not sucked back into this mess. You know who this guy is,and that he has nothing to offer. Time to move on!
the thing about these guys is there’s no such thing as “good times.” “Good times” are some fabricated heat to keep you from noticing just how ice cold they can be. It feels warmer than it actually is because you’re desperate for it. You should be ALLERGIC to this guy because you have a bullshit allergy, remember?
No contact. Blockity block block block if your phone has that feature.
Thank you everyone for the comments. They’ve empowered me to start making some better decisions for myself.
I remember sitting there with him one night and he told me him and his brother haven’t spoken in a year (this has happened before). When I asked him why, he told me it was because he had forgot his mom’s birthday and his brother hadn’t called him to remind him. He had received a text from his mom the following day obviously not happy her son had forgot. He called his brother right away to ask him if he knew it was her birthday the night before. His brother said yes. He went off on him and cut him out of his life for the past year all because his brother didn’t call to “remind him”. I still don’t understand this one, but it makes me realize who has the real problems!
Broken you have problems too and YOUR priority right now is to no one else but yourself first. Well done for writing on BR it is a thousand times better than saying one word to that person who will never fulfill your needs. Keep it up and find more people and places that do want to hear from you – walk away from the ones who don’t.
Broken,
I agree with OONa.
You need to understand why you stayed with, and kept returning to, this idiot. I would strongly suggest some counseling, as you’re not recognizing very poor behavior, or recognizing self worth.
This guy is a loser, and was always a loser! I would hate for you to follow this pattern with another creep!
This one is tough. How do you know if it’s your gut turning good men down because it is so used to look for vibes of bad men? At this point it is difficult for me to trust my gut as it has lead me to bad men before. I have turned good men down because of “gut feeling” that something is just not right. And all along it was me looking for chemistry and false signs of love. I am lost with this one, I would need more guidance than just reference to early warning signs.
I think a book or blog might not help with this. You might want to try a structured support group or group therapy where you can discuss what you need to freely without judgment. This has a healing effect, and the natural consequence is that your “picker” improves.
I think the answer is to treat yourself as good as you can. Treating yourself and caring for yourself and loving yourself trains your emotions to recognize the capacity to love you that way in guys. The old versions of us treat ourselves like crap so being treated like crap feels familiar. We have to make it unfamiliar so we can sniff it out.
Agreed!!
I am still ( we are talking over three years) learning how not to treat myself like crap.It is just the worst habit to break.
If its been going wrong before based on ‘false signs of love’. You need to redefine what YOU think love is. Yes it is tough until you do this.
There is a proverb in the bible: the soul that is full loathes even the honeycomb, but to the hungry mouth every bitter thing is sweet.
If your soul is “full” – that is, you are getting your core needs met (you can find out what they are with exercises from the book The Secret Law of Attraction by Meidaner), then bitter crumbs won’t taste sweet to you. Your standards will be raised naturally because you’re not starving for affection, flattery and attention as you make sure to get these on an ongoing basis.
You’ll be more likely to spot unacceptable qualities and treatment from others, and at work, and walk away with your poise intact.
Helen, it’s a very good question.
Perhaps there’s a little confusion about gut feeling being about wondering ‘is this person going to give me the relationship I want?’, and treading carefully til you get a yes or a no to that, and gut feeling being about determining ‘is this person worthy/available/caring/respectful/loving/sane/safe?’.
In the latter, anything short of ‘yes absolutely’ on all counts means it’s time to run like your heels are on fire and your bottom’s catching. Also you can’t raise or discuss any of those latter points. “Um, do you have a personality disorder? Are you sure? Oh, great, ok. That’s good. Because I noticed that your eyes are kind of… well… looking into them is like staring into the deepest darkest pits of hell rather than into the eyes of another human being. So I thought I’d ask. Can I get you another beer?” You have to judge according to what behavioural evidence they display (and that includes things that have gone on in the past particularly), despite whatever words come out of their mouths. Words can deceive. Actions cannot. And we have to rely on our gut to tell us what these actions and behaviours mean, what this person is really like, so that we can deduce how they’re going to behave with us. Because how they behave has nothing to do with what they want in terms of a relationship, what kind of partner they want, what they envision happening in five years time, and all that — if their behaviour and personality isn’t all pointing in a respectable direction, none of that relationship stuff even comes into play.
beautifully put Grizelda.
I’ve just witnessed some classic assholery. I had a date with someone living nearby, we exchanged lots of messages beforehand and it was pretty clear that it wasn’t going to develop into anything romantic. I’d sworn that I’d only get in meaningful relationships, but it’s been so long, I just wanted to ‘get out there’ and break the silence, have fun. He was smart and I liked his manner.
He told me in advance something had once happened between him and his housemate, I asked twice whether they were now seeing each other and it would be cheating to see me, he said no. I thought he must be quite honest to have raised it with me, but I felt suspicious and thought I was maybe just too jaded. I said he should be aware how awful it is if he’s hooking up with her and misleading her.
Then before the second date, he tells me he has to sneak out at a certain time and seems to relish the idea. I said he WAS cheating on her, he said they didn’t have a label on what they were so it was ‘officially fine’. I asked whether it was case of him not wanting to rub her nose in it, or if she did not know that he might date or was dating others.
He said the latter and they were ‘seeing how things went’, so I told him it was over.
So after this, I feel sorry but glad to have asked him about it directly and stopped things. But it makes me angry. He is totally playing the field, made it clear that he’s looking all over for women, going on dating sites etc. and is trying to get over his ex.
Having been in the housemate’s position over a long period of time, I feel so sad for her. Even though I was living with a manipulative AC who nearly destroyed me, in some ways he was better because he at least told me there were other women so I had to take some responsibility, while she doesn’t even know. How many more are in this situation?
I told him before ending it that women are likely to get attached for biological reasons and are generally deceiving themselves if they think they can handle casual – the only reason I was ok with him was because of a set of circumstances and it couldn’t last long (being single but with my heart elsewhere, while finding someone I was physically attracted to virtually on my doorstep). I told him this in the hope that he’d realise what he’s doing to women, but I recognise now that it was foolish and none of this matters to men like him, even worse, they’re happy to play on it, as so many do. They don’t respect women. It doesn’t mean anything to them that it’s just an uncontrollable urge that gets women attached and not because they’re special. There’s no reasoning with this kind of ego.
It makes me sad that there are so many people like this and I want to take the warning.
Don’t assume he’s into you until he says it clearly and makes a commitment. These people are slimy with the truth.
Though I’d understand if readers found it distasteful that I saw him in the first place, I feel like I’ve handled it well. Old me would have let it go on and brushed away the truth, slowly getting attached and denying the attachment while hoping for an upgrade, my battered ego trying to get him to choose me. I chose me, I’m not that desperate and that means I never will be. It means I can stop judging all my past mistakes as the way I am, because now I’ve done the right thing.
Something else that hit home with me is how he’d call 30-something women ‘girls’. I never really thought about it before, not long ago I liked to be called a girl, but now it tells me the guy saying it has no respect. I will sometimes call men ‘boys’ in a casual way, but it’s not the same thing, I still see them as humans with brains and souls when I say it.
This man has no idea about equality, he wanted to just take from me without giving, sexually and otherwise. I’m so glad I didn’t stand for it. No more cold-hearts for me, I’ve had my ‘fun’ and want nothing less than to be adored.
This the line you need to read over again, Happy, and realize it applies to yourself too: “are generally deceiving themselves if they think they can handle casual.” Doesn’t matter what set of circumstances you think will keep you from getting attached, in all likelihood, you WILL. Why risk going down that rabbit hole?
Diane, just saw this, and you’re absolutely right. He still keeps contacting me and it would be so easy, he would just come to see me when ever I feel like it and satisfy me, if only it were that simple. That one time left me with emotions I couldn’t control, it gives you a bond with someone who couldn’t give a crap about you, it distracts you from looking for real love, it leaves you empty and hungry, it’s junk food, and the more of it you have, the more you think ‘well, ok it’s not great but what’s one more time eh?’.
I’m not going down that rabbit hole, don’t worry! I had to learn it once more, but now it’s onwards and upwards, with no shame in my life.
Another timely post. I had just been revisiting the old “Reasons You Are Chronically and Terminally Single” self-talk, and the phrase “wary and avoidant” was one that sprang to mind. I don’t want to be one of those people who makes the same mistakes, keeps dating the same guys over and over in different guises expecting different results, doesn’t recognize toxic people until it’s too late. So I am wary and avoidant.
I just met some guy last week who was pressing me really hard to go out with him that same night. Some women might think, “he really likes me!” I’m thinking, “O rly? As if I couldn’t possibly have anything more pressing to do. Trying to get things on his terms right from the get-go, this one is.” I’ve dated and dumped this type before, so this time round I’m skipping straight to the dumping. Saves time.
I just noticed Natalie’s 21 Day Belief challenge thing. It’s free, and on the right hand side of the site if you scroll up. I’m doing it to challenge limiting beliefs. It sounds like maybe it could help you too.
I don’t have ‘spidey senses’ at all and when in love especially. My ex talked like women hater (about other women), said I was f@ckuble (?!?!) as a compliment and called me ‘petty’ whenever I questioned anything… Basically it was ‘put up or shut up’ attitude…at the end he said he didn’t have anything to give. I was his sex toy for 5 years finding excuses for both. He was a soul raper, heartless empty idiot ( and I thought at the time he was ‘mysterious’ LOL! Until I found myself inside, I wasn’t able to get rid of this lunatic. Maybe it was my own lunacy, maybe I needed to hit the rock bottom to find the beauty and clarity inside. I wouldn’t even survive if it wasn’t for BR and this sisterhood of wounded but strong souls. Thanks, y’all!
Amen. I was told that I had a beautiful c_nt. And that he dreamed about uncomplicated p_ssy. Mine was a soul raper, heartless empty idiot as well. I’ve been NC for two weeks….and have received two text messages and an email about stupid stuff. Enough! BR is very helpful.
Rewind,
This guy sounds so disgusting!!!
What did you say when he said those things? The C word is the most disrespectful word anyone can use! Blech!!!
This man hates women!
I would guess he doesn’t like women so he punishes and disrespects every woman he is with. He is an African American and I am white. He only dates white women. He works with women and never has anything good to say about them. It’s craziness at it’s best. I have gone NC, and trying to get my life back to what it was five years ago. Wow…the power of a narcissist. Charming crumbs, devaluing, disappearing, reappearing, inviting me and one of his other supply to the same dinner party at his house, having sex with one woman, and then two hours later calling me to come over…it just goes on and on. So I am the crazy one for putting up with it for so long, and I can’t even explain why I did!
“Uncomplicated *****” is his way of expressing annoyance that women are people and not a sex toy with a life support system. He’d mad that other people aren’t eager to please his every whim, all the time. Something tells me these types would score very high on a psych eval. for psychopathy and extreme narcissism.
Rewind- Is this the guy you recently did laundry for?? Oh please, please tell me it ain’t so. 🙁 If it’s so, please, please tell me you’re seeking a good therapist. You are in a very dark place.
Yes, this is the guy I did laundry for. And yes, I have a therapy appointment next week. I am doing good with no contact. He is loved by so many because he works with youth. No one know his dark, private side. But I guess it’s not my place to let anyone know. I just need to work on me. If you knew the thugs he has done to me, and the other women that I know about, you would have me committed. This site gives me so much…and is what is keeping me strong with NC. It also is painful, because it is showing me how crazy I have been trying to be with this sick man!
Rewind- It’s good that you’re feeling pain as it’s telling you that something is wrong. Therapy will probably be painful too as surgery is always painful. You’ll have many light bulb moments too, “Oooh! That’s why I did that…” Congratulations on your NC & making an appt. with the therapist. I’m forever grateful for mine! 🙂
Oh Rewind be strong. A man who extols the virtues of ‘uncomplicated p-ssy’ just wants the p-ssy without the rest of the human being attached to it. Because he can’t relate to the rest.
A good Christmas present for this guy would be half a shop window dummy. The lower half. Just the legs, the bum and the groin, but chopped off at the waist before it gets all complicated.
Ha. Great idea!
Rewind, I would have no further contact with this man. He flat out hates women and has told you this in various ways.
The real issue isn’t *him*, it’s How much do you hate yourself that you have allowed an adversary into your innermost circle, and why?
Very timely as usual! I’ve been seeing someone and I haven’t been happy with the effort he is putting into it lately. I’ve talked to him and he said everything is fine and he’s into it but his actions say otherwise big time. So I respectfully ended it today.
A big thank you to Natalie. In the past, I would have defaulted to feeling sad and I would have questioned myself, wondering what it was about me that was causing his behavior. Not doing that this time! 😀
Three times, I felt a gut wrenching feeling of dread at seeing certain men again. Ironically, all three were guys that most would say were good enough and to not be so picky, so elitist. Two of them would up stalking me, the third, the spouse of a fellow student, later admitted to raping both his daughters. The tricky part is when one feels just a bit of unease, which is normal when being with someone new because you don’t know the person or where you stand, and folks are sooo highly variable. The latter is what gets me into trouble.
Please explain why this man is not being turned into the police.
The male coworker who was handed my old job… we had a friendly relationship. But since my Director turned over my system to him, I got that niggling “why is he always painting me negatively, but with humor” feeling. He’d “joke” that “Yeah, Elgie bailed just as it got hard” or “You want me to do the difficult stuff..ha ha”.
I was helping him learn the system until two days ago when I realized I was allowing myself to be used as an invisible project leader…I do the planning and male coworker takes the credit. So I stopped. Cold stopped. Told him he had the ball now.
Well, today, male coworker threw a hissy fit in my office. Pretty much said he was going to “tell” on me….he really used those words. “I don’t want to get you in trouble but I’m going to have to tell.” Do what you have to do Steve, I said. He tried to guilt me. He attacked my professionalism, said it was my job to “turnover” everything I know. This is the same man who took me to lunch a month ago as thanks for my helping him. I remember being unsettled by being taken to “lunch” for “helping”. Helping??! I’m effing planning this thing and LEADING this thing…I am not HELPING. Very patronizing. It did not feel right to me then…and now…as Natalie said…his sputtering tantrum is proof that my instincts are good.
I have no plans to lead this project without being given the official role. Or not leading and not being any part of it. Either one is OK.
Elgie, nice! Keep turning a blind eye as it sounds like the male coworker is not going to let up, plus attacking your character with empty threats reeks of desperation (and very childish) as he is going to be pulled up sooner for not achieving required targets/goals the system was put in place for. Be prepared (and don’t be surprised) for the pending blame, very disingenuous these types of people. And I really do admire women like you who really know how to put yourself in right and proper stead. Hats off to ya…..!
The problem is he is mad because he doesn’t know how to do his job without you! If he wasn’t being such a d@*k, you probably would have gladly SHOWED him how to use the system. What would have happened if you left or lord forbid died? He was going to have to learn the system on his own. He sounds lazy! Let him sweat and figure it out on his own, especially since it’s his job and not yours anymore.
Very apropos! I am navigating a relationship with a new roommate and I’ve had the niggles about her, but really what it meant is I needed to set a few boundaries (trying not to vent to each other, etc) and she has been very responsive.
When you are raised by a narcissist, one thing you learn is that there are bad people and good people, and they are a good person and should therefore never have to encounter any boundaries. You learn that in order to get to a point where you set a boundary, you have to feel angry and willing to assign that person as “bad.” This makes developing intimacy so hard because you don’t get to know people’s humanity and still keep your integrity. You have to try to see in black and white and if you chose good, ignore all the ques to set boundaries.
It has been a great journey to calm down my reactor and set boundaries respectfully without damning the person who needs the boundary. It also allows me to realize that maybe someone has had too many chances. I don’t have to be made about it. There doesn’t need to be drama. I can just calmly withdraw.
sidenote I recently withdrew from a friend. Longtime friend, and she has all my bad habits and more. Some comments of hers were odd. When I expressed an interest in comics and football, she asked probing questions that made myself feel like I had to prove my legitimacy as a fan. She was being possessive of those qualities and didn’t want me to have them, it seemed. After separating from her it becomes clearer to me that that fit into a pattern of her generally not wanting me to be great. She wasn’t an empowering presence and it’s a relief to say goodbye to that dynamic.
Love!
The great thing about wisdom, emotional growth and maturity is you learn how to pay attention to people’s action and words. You learn to patterns and behaviors based on previous experiences and use these to make sound decisions that can save you a world a pain later on. This is when you know you didn’t go through life’s journey without learning the lesson that was given. Then and only then do you feel like everything you went through was not in vain.
Amen Stephanie!
Sometimes I wondered if I have learnt the lessons I need to..and wondered “I hope I am doing ok”…and then see that I am able to pick up EU issues with men/people within a couple of hours/few dates and opt to stay away. I still have ongoing work to do within myself but I know for sure that I can see the patters. The lessons have been learnt, now to keep using them in life.
Thanks for the reminder, needed it today.
My last (and luckily only) EUM taught me to be very alert of the self-righteous talk. I have never faced this before so I did not know what a red flag it was. Example: he’d get very fired up when he knew someone married a younger girl, or cheated on their wife. While cheating is nothing to be admired yet his reaction was always extremely exaggerated, no matter who was cheating on whom (in some cases they could be even fictional characters in a movie we’ve just seen!). He has had a few of these “themes” that got him on his white horse and verbally crusading against older men getting younger women, men promoting young and clueless girls just because of their looks etc. And lo and behold – it all became true with him. Shortly after meeting him and our “hot” phase I learnt that he had a girlfriend, then he started cheating on both of us and now he has promoted a bunch of clueless girls to positions they know nothing about. In retrospect I think all this enormously pompous talk was because he was jealous and wanted TO DO all and have all those things he was so verbal about and against.
I’ve seen something like this too. There is a German proverb
“When the fox preaches, check on the geese” – that is, be alert when someone says self righteous things, because you can almost bet it’s a cloaked confession!
I don’t even understand the negativity attached to the word ‘judgemental’. We all need conviction and understanding that it’s our right to observe, draw conclusions and pass judgements on people and situations according to our set of values.
I’m glad you said that Sushi!
People largely hold views that benefit them personally. It makes me wonder what kind of person wants to encourage others not to hold people responsible for their own behaviour.
Sushi
Right on! If we ignore what we see, ignore what we feel, we can find ourselves, give folks an unwarranted benefit of the doubt, we can fins ourselves in a toxic situation in a hurry.
That`s why we all end up on here, we don`t hold views to benefit us,we ignore stuff right in front of us or how badly we feel, we don`t believe we are allowed an opinion.Or to make a mistake.If we knew how to and were not afraid to judge there`d be no BR because be`d all be walking and flushing away.
What a zinger, this!
Despite being keenly reactive and sensitive to vibes and energy from other people, I had somehow become conditioned to ignore and override my own apparently highly functioning alarm system and have had hell to pay for it. Indeed I am currently in the process of extricating myself from an epic disaster of a relationship that should have triggered a veritable din of alarms and warning lights going off all over the place from Day One, but I chose to paint over the writing on the wall….
I really appreciate everyone sharing their personal experiences and giving concrete examples of what assclownery looks like, as it helps me to train my eye to see the colour “red”. Fuck…it’s as if I’m colour-blind! The red flags/code ambers/etc that the assclown I am currently married to (and trying to get rid of) and the one who preceded him and the one before him abundantly exhibited since Day One would have been broadly obvious to anyone of normal sensibilities (i.e. someone with healthy boundaries) but not to me, as I’d been immersed in self-doubt and subjected to an overload of dodgy, boundary- busting behaviour all my life so lacked the frame of reference to recognize them.
Here’s one of my own for any other people like me who may be reading this:
In the early stages of my relationship with Assclown #2, I was going through a really bad depressive episode and he cajoled me into driving all the way (± 45 minutes from my house) to his place to hang out with him, and then took me along to a party he was going to. He had NOT told me about the party earlier, so I had no makeup on and was dressed very poorly (hard to bother with such things, as depressed as I was!), plus I didn’t know anyone there except him. When we got to the house where the party was, he turned to me as he opened the door to go in and said in an overweeningly patronising voice, “You don’t need a babysitter, do you?” and then disappeared into the crowd, leaving me standing alone on the doorstep looking like a walking pile of dirty laundry.
Did I do as I ought to have and bid that AC a sincere go-fuck-yourself and run for the hills? No! I let him continue to string me along, chop-chop-chopping at me to annihilate whatever vestigial self respect I still had left after what I’d just been through with another one before that particular specimen got to me, and then when he finally dumped me for good a year or so later, pined away and cried myself to sleep for months on end! “Oh, why did I fail so hard? Why wasn’t I good enough?” No más!
I saw all the signs. When he asked me out for a drink I said to myself, ‘he had severe back problems, nothing says emotional unavailability like back pain,’ but I accepted his invite nonetheless.
As we sat at the bar, the red flags were fast, furious and humorous. I fell for him fully knowing he was never going to step up. He never did. He broke my heart. But he broke it perfectly. I so clearly saw that his actions were not about me, but about him. All of a sudden, my whole life made sense. All of the assholery of my childhood wasn’t about me, either. People are just messed up sometimes. Hurt people hurt people.
He was the last of the man boys. He cured me of them forever. The world’s greatest gift.
OH. MY. GOD. I have had chronic back pain for years on end, but it’s been getting much better recently, so much so now that I don’t even really remember having had it anymore! Oddly, the improvement happened to coincide with me finding BR and beginning this “deep scalpel” work on myself! My head is spinning….
I want to know more about this link between back pain and emotional unavailability.
I am not a back expert but they have proved there is a direct link between stress lowering your immune system which then allows/brings on chronic conditions and diseases which otherwise your immune system would automatically protect you from.
In my experience I became extremely ill after the stress of dealing with a seriously abusive ex who then ran a smear campaign about me in the new community I am living in, stopping me from getting friends, work and trying to get me kicked out of my home. So I don’t find it too hard to believe emotional stress can affect you in other physical ways even if its as simple as we put more strain unconsciously on a certain parts of our body while dealing with whatever we are going through.
So true. Once you fully realize, deep down, it’s not you it’s them, it makes life so much better. Whether it’s your parents, your spouse, strangers on the Internet. Someone being an asshole is about THEM and not something YOU did. Odd and sad how women just don’t get something so obvious from the get-go.
I heard the phrase recently, ‘you get the love you think you deserve’. I’ve been thinking about it a lot, it makes so much sense to me.
If we think we deserve crumbs, we ignore the red flags, we rationalise and justify and accept what we can get. One the other hand, others have a gaggle of devotees, they are over-entitled. What matters is whether or not we think we deserve the kind of love that we want. I’m sure it’s not quite that simple, but it seems important.
happy b- Is it really love these devotees are experiencing or is it like why so many of us post on BR- trying to get our own needs met by becoming doormats? I don’t call this love; it’s desperation and a cry for help.
Rosie, that’s true, and those over-entitled people don’t really care about how they get the devotion, or where the devotion comes from, or what type of devotion it is. I don’t think it matters to them if you tell them this ‘love’ they’re receiving is really dependency and desperation, they are just as desperate and for both sides it’s superficial.
My point really is that the people who are truly loved are not necessarily the greatest in character, looks, attitude etc., but instead know what real love looks like and that they’re worthy of it.
The relationship I was in for 3.5 years until a year ago sent me to therapy to finally learn how to draw better boundaries. It’s so hard to recognize a deep-seated feeling of unworthiness beneath what everyone would recognize as an abundance of charisma and confidence. All through this relationship I kept waiting for his better behavior. He enjoyed getting under my skin and was often irritable and contemptuous, and whenever I protested he labeled me as “over-sensitive” and “difficult.” “I’ve NEVER had a relationship like this,” he would hiss whenever we had a fight. “That’s because you’ve never been with someone who actually cared enough to call you out on your sh*t,” I’d reply.
Here’s the thing that stumps me, though, about boundaries: once you get attached to someone, how do you differentiate between the person not acting in the interests of the relationship, versus being in a stuck period in his life? My ex was very stuck in his career and life in general: living in a garage apartment at his parents, seeing none of his friends, working a job he hated but moving in circles in any attempt to find a better job, unable to articulate even one specific thing he wanted out of his life or tell me what direction he WANTED to go in. I really tried to help him, but eventually I got frustrated, especially when he had excuse after excuse for why we couldn’t even TALK about a future together despite saying he wanted to be with me. My spidey sense told me to leave (as it had in some form since practically the beginning, because of his love of getting under my skin), but I also felt like it would be unfair to just walk away when he so obviously was lost. I thought once he got on track again the relationship would correspondingly improve.
Obviously now I see my mistake in staying, but at the time, it wasn’t clear and I’m afraid of making a similar mistake again. So, how do you know?
Hey Marshmallow, I feel I may be speaking out of turn here since I am brand-new at diagnosing relationship problems, as all I have done up until now is have them instead of trying to fix them…er…what was that post from the other day about not dimming our light? 😉
My sense is that his stuckness is a secondary issue. What leaps out to me is him enjoying getting under your skin. I have recently come to recognize that sort of tactic as a predatory behaviour (= MASSIVE red flag!). Certain personality types (“drama queens” in particular!) seek to provoke and antagonize the people they are dealing with as a default setting for their way of interacting with others. They get off on the drama that generates, i.e., they provoke you so they can jones on the energy you throw off from the annoyance of it.
About the “how do you know” part, I am in the same boat, and in fact that reminds me of Ground Zero of the 15-year relationship / marriage to a professional ne’er-do-well (man child) that I am in the process of extricating myself from (yeah, it took me long enough!). When I first saw his place, I thought, “Good god, this guy must be really, really depressed!” (Yeah, he’d just been kicked to the curb by his wife of 20 years, had been dispossessed of his career as a musician by his ex-wife and father and was now stuck in a shit day job, and on and on…victim victim victim….) and for years I stayed with him because I felt sorry for him! I later came to recognize that there are certain types of messes that scream “mental health issues!” There are certain patterns of speech that indicate an inveterate “victim consciousness” (= an unwillingness to take responsibility for the shit you’ve got yourself into). His stuckness is not your job. He has to want to fix himself, and if he chooses not to, you can keep spinning your wheels and having your vital energy drained away and wasting your time until you give up in frustration and leave.
What I am doing is compiling a list of these “tells” I am identifying based on an extensive review/ post mortem of past (and current) failed relationships and learning as I go. Do not be afraid to make the same mistake. All you can do is protect yourself and hedge your bets by learning from past mistakes and keep moving forward and upward. Peace 🙂
P.S. And yes, giving your boundaries and core values a major overhaul helps immeasurably!
I agree with Brenda K. People can and do use one another as an energy source. In dysfunctional relationships, often one person is left feeling depleted and confused, while the other is energized and renewed. It’s sick, but if someone habitually puts you down, it’s because they’re getting something out of it, not just “being real”.
Marshmallow,
Please look up co dependency. The website CODA could be quite helpful.
Marshmallow, all you need is to be actively aware of and actively embracing your own boundaries and values in your everyday life. This will, in turn, guide your attachments to others which are, when all is said and done, the result of the choices we make in many contexts, rather than the result of sudden impositions on our emotional selves by outside forces.
Brenda K and Marshmallow – look up Natalies posts on Florence nightingales on the above menu of older posts.
You definitely need to ask yourself why you thought it was your job to find him a job, an apartment, a purpose in life, etc. It’s not your job. It’s HIS. All you can do is support someone in his efforts, ie “Oh you sent out your resume to that company? Great!” But then it’s not your job to niggle him about did he call to follow-up, etc. He’s an adult. His life is his to decide how it’s going to go.
Okay ladies (and the occasional gentleman) :),
I cannot apply this post to my romantic life (mostly because it’s nonexistent….) but I can apply it to my entire life: a pattern of having a strong gut. Even as a little kid. Teach, if you’re out there, you especially will understand. When, as a child, you feel like you have to have your own back, even a mediocre or slightly strong intuition about people develops into an outstanding one. Out of necessity. But I digress. The problem is not in the intuition, but, as Miss Nat so eloquently points out, in the trusting of this intuition. But it doesn’t end there: once you trust your gut, you still have a choice how to use that information with the most maximum benefit for all involved, if possible.
Case in point: I had set eyes briefly on a lady at my gym who is also a Zumba instructor like I am, though I’m much newer at the job. Anyway, most of the instructors I’ve met since I got licensed (in January of this year), have been very lovely. However this one, when I first laid eyes on her (she was actually introducing herself to another instructor and I was in their presence), my gut was like “Oooooh girrrrrll….watch this one.” So the other day, I went to a regular Zumba class of mine (as a student, not instructor), and she happened to be the sub that day. I had never taken her class or even officially met her at this point. I was gonna play it cool and just take the class (as I always do) as a student and not even mention that I’m also an instructor, simply because….well, who the fuck cares? But she came up to me before class and said, “I know you. You taught a few songs on Labor Day….you taught that Shakira song…I teach that one too.” I could feel the eyeballs rolling in her head, folks. Yep, I was being sized up, girls. I could also feel her posturing and pulling rank, even though I didn’t have my checkers on the board. So I kept it small and gracious (yeah, I may be a blowhard and a toughie, but at least a little of my mom’s efforts to make me into a lady have paid off in my late thirties, finally…. 😉 ) I said, “It’s nice to meet you. I’ve heard such good things about you. I’m looking forward to taking your class.”
I could tell during class that she was performing more than she was teaching. And upon reflection, I could also tell that this and her sizing me up in the beginning was because of insecurity. So after class, I made it a point to go up to her and say, “You did such a good job, and gave us a great workout. Thanks so much. It was nice meeting you.” And it was all true. She DID give us a good workout, despite posturing, etc. So, am I listening to my instincts with this one? Well, I don’t have the urge (or plan) to be bosom buddies with her. But do I have to be rude and dig deeper into her insecurity and make it fester even more, when I can word my commendation to her in such a way that it is sincere?
Revolution- Good point! We can be respectful while remaining disengaged from the nonsense. Ok, time to apply this lesson when calling my mom today…oy…
Another brilliant post. I credit myself with a pretty good BS radar, but my problem in the past is that I would just minimise or ignore it which led to increasing low self esteem and untold angst and heartbreak.
Since reading BR and having some therapy, I’ve learnt not just to listen to my instincts, but to actually act on them.
So during my recent attempts at online dating I’ve managed to steer clear of a man with a big alcohol problem and a man clearly not over his ex- wife who was still so bitter about her and crying on a first date! First and last date.
I now look after myself much better and my tolerance for BS is very low. Some o my friends initially thought I was just being cynical or too mistrusting, but through their own bitter experience have come to see that actually I have a point and am good at sniffing out nonsense. Always trust your instincts and don’t try to make something that goes against who you are feel right. It just doesn’t work.
Michelle- Regarding the two examples you gave, I don’t think it takes instincts, just an ability to see the obvious. Should you come from a family that swept everything under the rug or didn’t let you have a voice, this ability is underdeveloped and may feel like instinct when using it at first. Again, though, it’s really just about acknowledging the obvious.
That’s a good point.
I just decided to revamp an entire project because of my gut reactions and instincts, which l kept fact checking with my intellect and reality. The only hold out was a lack of confidence in myself at the thought of implementing Plan B and possibly C, D, and E if necessary; I’m coming face to face with some self-esteem issues. I’ve never identified these feelings so accurately in the past. I know I can handle this situation, but emotionally, I’m unsure of myself, but I don’t know why. I’m asking myself, “What are these feelings, and how can I support myself emotionally through this process?” It felt like I uncovered low self-esteem in a part of me.
It feels like a trigger. It feels like inner child learned helplessness. But, at the same time it just feels like me not fully trusting in my gut and wanting someone to come in the room, and agree with me… tell me, “Yes, you should stand your ground and….”
Damn it! I still want the predators to say, ” Yep, you’re right. We are predators, and we’re going to eff you over if you don’t take your power back and stand up for yourself and follow through with your actions because what we are doing IS wrong.” Yeah, I like that because that makes me feel good, but why? And, it ain’t gonna happen!
Maybe this just feels foreign to validate myself because I’ m so used to getting people’s OK before I make major decisions.
Or, maybe I’m just feeling normal human emotions that come when making major financial decisions.
Ugghhhhh.
Well, “OK.” I’m giving myself the OK to stand by this decision.
And, I’m going to take care of myself emotionally.
OK, back to work.
“OK..OK…. It’s OK. I really can do this…yep…OK. I’m sticking to my decision.
Ughhh.
Ha! It will get easier. *smiling*
Mirror of faces – new territory. You are finding your true voice. Well done.
Oona,
Hey, thanks. I do believe I am.
It is a strange, different feeling. I don’t feel so disconnected from Self, and I’m getting that “I feel alive” feeling.
Take care, Mirror :o)
I remember thinking, yeah, this guy is my best friend, and I’ve always been attracted to him, so this is it; he’s the one. But, yeah, there’s a real difference between a friend and a boyfriend.
First correction in thinking: I don’t think anyone can be my best friend. I’m not even sure what that is anymore. I feel like if anyone is truly my best friend it would be me, and actually my ex wasn’t my best friend.
But he was a friend, and I accepted him as is. In my gut, I knew he had a temper, and I knew something about him was emotionally unstable, but I had never witnessed it, but there were signs, but I just thought, so what; every one in my family has a temper, and besides, he walks away when he gets ready to lose it, and I’m emotionally charged as well, and I can handle him, and his temper. It’s rinkee-dink bullshit. Besides, he will never talk to me that way, and if he does, I’ll jump in his sh&%.
WRONG!!!
Run! Do not engage!
This has been very timely for me. I have just had to put some boundaries in place with a married female friend, who I have been listening to for about a year and a half. She simply approached me one day at our church (as an almost-complete stranger) and started talking about her very personal marriage problems, and instead of thinking ‘WEIRD’, I tried to be kind and listen.
Turns out there’s a long history of her seeking a Miraculous Third Party to ‘save’ her marriage, when actually she and her husband are about 50-50 responsible for their problems, and neither of them is prepared to do the work.
It’s very sad because she refuses to accept that she may be contributing to their family problems (five gorgeous but super-stressed kids) with her extremely high anxiety and control-freakery, and she continues to blame her rather tragic husband for everything. Admittedly, he has lost every job he’s had since she met him, but I’m starting to wonder if he was like this before he met her!!
So anyway, I finally lost my temper with her – which was wrong – but then told her I’d be taking a long break from any conversations of this sort with her, because I didn’t want to be another female friend she has burned through with always being in crisis mode. (She admitted this once about herself, thank goodness, which has helped me a lot).
I felt mean, because her husband’s about to lose another job. But then I thought, ‘No – STOP. This lady has been boundary-busting for months with you, draining you like a battery, and all that time she’s not moved one inch towards greater insight, or more forgiveness, or better mental health. So not only are you not helping; you are making yourself crazy as well.’
And I think – and I hope this isn’t premature – that I may now be cured of trying to help people too much, which is also an overdue thing.
Treatment? I am reconnecting this evening with another married female friend who I haven’t seen for ages, and with whom I am not drained. I am still available to the Blamer, but only for the most general chit-chat about things of mutual relevance. NO MARRIAGE TALK. She keeps trying to get back on my radar, but I ain’t budging.
PS: I am also amazed that I was able to say STOP! so firmly to myself, and also to recognise that if I didn’t say STOP! to her now, because of the current ‘crisis’, then I’d never escape, because there would always be another crisis being engineered to keep me involved in her personal life.
The poor husband had also started emailing me, trying to use me as an amateur psychologist (they’re already paying someone around $200 a throw to do this professionally!), and to help him blame his wife for his failings.
I was able to stop him – politely – in his tracks and say, ‘I’m sorry, but I’m not a psychologist; I’m just a friend of you and your wife’s. So maybe keep the psychological stuff for the professional.’
This is what I love about BR; it has helped me to learn skills to use in ALL my relationships, which I realise now have been infused with dodginess for many years.
Now to re-read all the stuff about would-be Florence Nightingales … and LEARN …
Ethelreda,
Well done for maintaining your boundaries without needing to be overtly rude about it. When we talk about our problems constantly without actually changing anything in our lives to help solve these problems, then the sole point of these conversations is to “re-fuel”. Basically, your friend is drained from her problematic marriage, she seeks out a friendly ear to help herself re-energise, during these uni-directional “conversations” she will pretend to be taking your advice seriously. After the conversation she will feel a temporary high at the expense of the listener, and bingo, she has enough energy to take/give more crap at home for a while, and the cycle repeats.
I have experience with this cycle myself.
RP
Thank you, RP – that really helps to put it in perspective. I was finding it hard to imagine things from her side of the fence, but I think you’ve shown me some truths there! It makes sense in the light of her admitting she’s burned through all her female friendships, but it also helps me to forgive her, because she really hasn’t got a clue of what she’s doing.
I’m hoping that what I said to her when I got angry actually might have penetrated on that score, at least. But time will tell – and if she starts again, I will be able to say STOP once more, and fully withdraw.
Ethelreda,
She’s an emotional vampire! These people will suck you dry! They use, use, use. Very self-centered!!!!
I’m assuming everything always about her?
If only, Allison! IF ONLY.
Instead, it was all about her husband and his many, many failures, which she has been hoarding up like dragon-gold for the last 15 years. She can give tabulated dates, times, what he said, what she said, etc. It was like some kind of terrible relentless drill bit. And it’s suspiciously coherent and well-rehearsed.
Until I started saying things like, “Yes, but the response you described to me as ‘joking’ was actually really bitchy, so no wonder he reacted the way he did.” She didn’t like that.
It would be great if it had been all about her, because then perhaps she might have gotten some insight!
Ethelreda,
Did she dare to inquire about your life? Was the entire convo about her, and her marriage problems?
These people don’t give a crap about anyone but themselves. They feed off the drama. It’s actually quite sad, but I am not saying I want to have any of them in my life.
Ethelreda! Hello!!! – Your great instinct is definitely telling you DANGER. You have been an UNPAID therapist for her right from the start – once you do she will always, ALWAYS keep coming back for more – it’s just toooooooo good – unless you stop therapy completely = she won’t find another ‘therapist’, real or not, because as you recognise, she is stuck…
Hi Ethelreda,
I agree with Allison. The person you describe sounds to me like a toxic parasite! They suck your energy using you as their personal “crisis hotline” (or in other cases, as a captive audience for them to spout endless lectures at — that’s a variation on this personality type) because that is the only way they know how to interact with others. I find that I almost always get an icky feeling with I am in the presence of an energy predator, so now I know to listen to that and make myself scarce.
I am so thankful to have stumbled along back to this site today. What a great post. Don’t disregard the early warning signs and there are usually many there long before we dare to realize… I won’t go in long story detail… But you have to recognize the red flags no matter who you are dating. Recovering but still Alcoholic; divorced; mere talks of him telling me earlier on at the beginning of our courtship that he sufferers from depression; (no medication it’s controlled) yea right! controlling; avid church goer and minister of music (but not really saved); carried massive firearms; (for lord knows what his intentions were) wanted trips out of the country at my expense (where there were no domestic violence laws preferably is what he jokingly stated out of his mouth) ; bad mouthing his child’s mother and just bad mouthing everybody. Our first date was at my church that I invited him to only because he was adamant that he had to go church. He played Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hide. Wrong! Lier! A devil in disguise. I took the devil to church with me that morning. I am so glad that I did not continue on with this no nothing relationship soon to be a train wreck. And watch out for people’s motives too. I have never been a victim of domestic violence and I was not going to become the next statistic but staying with this guy I could see where he was headed. I hope I save somebody else here today. Don’t disregard the early warning signs!
An interesting post Natalie,and very timely for me, though it is in regards to a platonic female/female relationship rather than anything romantic.
I won’t go into too much detail, however everything you’ve said is absolutely on point. The side-ways remarks, the looks of disdain that touch somewhere deep inside, that you know are meant for you alone.
There was an episode recently where she took the time to go into great detail (in front of friends) how much she hated another woman, whilst using me as the example of the woman she so hated. That was the last straw. It was abundantly clear. The next step was to either permit myself to be involved in an emotionally abusive, toxic platonic “friendship”, or set my boundaries in stone and then let the chips fall where they may.
It’s taken me a while but I have accepted that this is her behaviour, and I do not need to tolerate it nor be around it. And I am happier and free-er for it. I do not care what she says about me to whomever, nor do I miss sitting and waiting for the inevitable veiled-insult to be pitched at me.
Others may or may not see this person for who they are – they are chameleons. However, the key is to trust yourself, your gut…and make known your boundaries. You are not paranoid, nor sensitive. You are intuitive and most probably an empath too…
Thank you Natalie for a wonderful piece.
Best,
Leia, London
Thank yo
And so, I have extricated myself from her mess, and I watch
“Thought about you a bit this past weekend. Hope things are well with you and your family :)”
got this from my high school Ex this morning. I thought I had a good relationship with him, but the minute I went to college he started dating my best friend, posted a picture of a condom wrapper on Myspace, got her pregnant, she got an abortion without telling him…just a toxic mess.
10 years later after a particularly bad break up with a narcissist, I slept with him and he pulled that always “busy” routine and was a complete a-hole to me.
I was having a really nice morning until he hit me with this. It’s all I can do to just mark it as spam and and ignore it.
Ladies, any reason you can give me not to give this kid a piece of my mind would be greatly appreciated.
I really want to say some shit like “you have repeatedly killed off any chance of you ever being worthy of putting a message in my inbox so I’m going to need you to never write to me again.” But I know that will just enable him to feel like I’m overreacting and he’ll find a way to still feel good about himself. Honestly, it breaks my heart that the one guy I thought I had a healthy relationship has turned out to be like all the rest.
Tangerine- The best thing to do is not respond at all. Tell him all about himself in your journal & re-read it during weak moments. NC is best as it clearly communicates you have better things to do than chit chat with him. He’s not important. By responding angrily, you are sending the message that he is important. Why else would you be so angry? The opposite of love isn’t hate; it’s indifference.
Tangerine – don’t reply at all. I made the mistake during several bouts of NC of responding to the AC, by giving him a piece of my mind about how he’d treated me. It had no effect whatsoever – he just ignored the texts. It made me feel better at the time, but when he didn’t respond I felt even worse.
I run into him from time to time (and a variety of his women) at social events – he greets me like an old friend. I’ve even been introduced to a woman he was with as ‘a good friend’ and then invited to sit with them. Words failed me!
I know my friends think its childish of me to ignore him. They tell me I should be friendly to him as ‘he’s such a nice pleasant guy and not all relationships work out’. I know that, but he was a deceitful,lying user – to me anyway. I discovered that when he was ‘busy working’ he was sleeping with at least 2 other women besides me. When I ended it, he smirked and just shrugged. In fact he still smirks when I’m unlucky enough to come across him. The last time I saw him, I was with mutual friends at a party. I simply said to him ‘I hope you find whatever it is you’re looking for’ and left it at that.
It is hard to get no reaction and harder to realise that I meant nothing at all, but I am working on being indifferent instead of feeling like a gullible fool and getting angry. I’ll remain NC and coldly polite if I see him again. These ACs must all follow the same rule book!
Hello Shattered,
I like to share my experience about the ex gfs.
With some of them we are not in contact, but it became naturally. If we meet on some random event we just say hi, but we don’t ask nothing personal. If we have join discussion with circle of people we enjoy the discussion, but basically we are indifferent. We just accepted, that we don’t have a match and that’s it.
I have one ex, that we can just sit and drink a beer and to talk for one hour, but after, that we are just bored and of course everybody goes home. That’s it we are just not good match.
There are 2 ex gfs, that I really hurt. I usually avoid them and don’t try to get any reaction from them. I sucked big time, why I have to screw them again.
There is one ex, that screwed me and one girl, that tried to play games with me. They always see my back! Thant’s what I got from them and I don’t want to give a second from my life anymore to them.
Hello Shattered,
I can add something about this: “I’ve even been introduced to a woman he was with as ‘a good friend’ and then invited to sit with them. Words failed me!”
Come on, this guy is pathetic. You were introduced as “a good friend” … with this relationship history, you can’t be good friends. Probably the guy was also testing you are still hooked … so pathetic. This looks like pressing the reset button.
I wish you good luck 🙂
Tangerine,
Why haven’t you blocked this guy? Hasn’t he taken up enough of your energy. Hon, you;re continuing to punish yourself!
geeez!
Sometimes I get the impression that there exists an “AC limited access” website where these dudes go to download their text messages. Seen one seen em all.
I agree with Rosie and Shattered. Ignore the loser!
RP
Tangerine,
you are far too good for a loser like him. Tell him to bugger off.
If you want to drive this point across there is nothing as good and effective as silence.It doesn`t matter what he will think of this response because he is full of BS.If you see him in person and he talks to you it`s best to look bored.
As long as you respond in any way at all he will continue this meaningless game when he is bored or lonely of feels like rattling someone for validation and it will continue to rattle you.
I know it`s easier said than done, cos one has to really let go of the illusion of them/relationship and could been`s before we can be truly indifferent. Fake it till you make it.
I let myself be rattled by ex-texts and phone calls which I never answered for nearly three years after the break up. And then, after about a year`s worth of silence I got a phone call. This time I answered because I didn`t know that it was him, as deleted his number. To top it off I didn`t recognise his voice, and to top THAT off I had a blank and didn`t place him straight away after he introduced himself. Then I put the phone down. And he knew – the game was over. It was really satisfying but I forgot about it in 10 minutes.
Today I had a similar incident. Been seeing a guy for only two weeks where he was very very keen, but my spider senses were kicking in as I did not feel very impressed him after unfolding after two dates, as well as being doubtful of his maturity. I broke it off with a phone call, after which he called back and DEMANDED that I owe HIM an explanation. Talk about instinct, glad I listened to that code red cos he delivered it with a silver platter, the bloody child.
This is my first time commenting here, though I’ve been a reader for almost a year. I have been learning to listen to early warning signals and not ignore what they might be telling me. For example I had a date with a guy recently, who I didn’t know much about, but had loosely labelled him as ‘seems nice’ (that’s why I said yes to the date, to get to know him more). But on the date we didn’t have a lot to talk about so the silences were getting a little awkward. I was going to write it off but then we had a kiss. Because it was nice, I felt like things went up (and maybe it eased some nerves for us both). But then he went too far and was trying to put his hands everywhere, to which I firmly said no, because I wasn’t comfortable with it at that early stage. He said he respected this, but proceeded to keep doing it (as if I was only teasing or something! wtf) But for some reason after I went home I somehow wondered if things could still work out with this guy – ie I was trying to play down his disrespectful, pretty creepy behaviour because I hoped that a different self would emerge and that would overcome this. I don’t know why I didn’t listen to myself…but then after a second date, and feeling the same way, I was firm in my feeling that this was not good enough for me. Last year, a similar ‘red flag’ behaviour was going on with a guy and I ignored it, getting hurt in the process when he finally showed what he was really like. So I would say I’ve learned something, about what I will and won’t accept, and hope this intuition will get even stronger.
Always listen to your gut feelings. I have always had such a strong I intuition about these men and I am ALWAYS right and discounted myself. My ex of two years and I just broke up a week ago and he was so strange in so many ways with not wanting me to hang around his friends without him, or saying he would have guys nights and there were always women there, and I knew he was acting as if he was single without me but as many of these EUMs he is a salesman and gives a great pitch of what a genuine loyal man he is. Long story short I found out so much this last week through other sources that my intuition was always right! Although he never physically cheated on me who would go out and act single and entertain offers the entire night. At the end of the day you just have to love you and know you’re worth and feel sorry for these people. They are dysfunctional and unhealthy people who are very unhappy with themselves and live a sad life. No women is every going to “change” them. This is who they are and they go through life like this for life.
I have been dating my current boyfriend for 5 months now, but the relationship has been on and off for most of that time. We have a significant difference in age, he is 45 and I am 30, we also come from different cultures. This is already a recipe for distaster in terms of challenging communication in itself, but to add insult to injury, he frequently exhibits controlling behavior, is quite touchy and this makes me think that he is also quite insecure (despite projecting a very strong and “manly” image). Most frequently we fight because he takes awful offence at the smallest things I say and do. I enjoy being playful when I feel comfortable in a relationship I would like to be able to make an innocent joke without the constant feeling of walking on eggshells… Several times already my partner went totally ballistic when I inadverently pulled his leg (or rather, stepped on his toe) or tried to express my feelings and emotions about some problems, anxieties I had in the relationship and my professional life. Every time he’d accuse me of being “childish” or “bad mannered” (in the first case) or “sulky” and “grumpy”, in the second. Then there’s the same scenario: he would yell shout at me (sometimes makes me think he has anger management issues), then block me and not talk to me for as many days as he feels sufficient to calm down (the first time we fought over such an innocuous occurence it took him 6 months) and then would come back but not to apologize but tell me what I did wrong and make me promise never to do so again because otherwise he’d leave me because he was getting pretty sick of me not heeding the lesson and repeating the same mistakes over and over again. And since I was always somehow feeling guilty and because I love him, I’d always push the reset button and start over again. However, since I can never know exactly what pushes his anger buttons, I continue to cause situations which he finds offensive and the arguments persist. I don’t know what to do anymore and this is taking a huge toll on me… I wish he would just not take himself so seriously so as to take everything personally and trust me that I’d never say anything to deliberately hurt his feelings. Do you think this is code red behavior? So far, everything has been on his terms – he decides when to step away and come back and I just waited patiently for his forgiveness. I know I should not do that but despite all this, I do love him. He is generally not a bad guy and has many redeeming qualities.
Hello M.,
I think, that this is very very red code! This silent treatment for example is red code, everything on his terms is red code, yelling – red code, reset button – red code.
He is 45 and he can’t build trust and respect in you and probably in women in general. Why if he still stays with you in case he finds some many issues in you.
Ask yourself, why you are allowing this kind of behavior?
Stay strong, read BR and you will find support here. I hope, that some wise woman can give you better advice and to share her story with you, but what I am reading I see that this guy just have to be flush.
It’s good that you are seeing a problem and you googled about it!
Yes, this is code red behavior.
Get out.
This old lady is telling you – Don’t let him take your youth.
Throw him for a loop by telling him that you’ve decided you’re not good enough for him and you don’t want to waste his time. He’d be hard pressed to say nice things about you to win you back, since he finds so many flaws with you already.
Please take heed. I wish that I knew what I know now, when I was younger.
This behavior sounds a lot like an ex-EUM I used to have in my recent past. He used to say things like “I have to correct you…how else will you change?” (wtf?) Or he would parrot everything that I said to him and I would hear my exact words back to me. Which is more than annoying, especially if I was trying to make a point. So I realized he never knew exactly how to react to me when he felt threatened, so he just said the exact same thing back to me. It was emotionally exhausting and I could not believe the time and effort it always took to get any point across.
You need to leave this situation, as your body is going to start responding to the stress. You will stay as long as you think you are in love, but this negative attitude will start stressing you out, producing stress hormones in your body, and you will eventually develop health symptoms as a result. Will it be worth it then? Not really.
You may need to look outside your own experience on this one. One time when my EUM yelled at me “I am putting as much into this relationship as you are!” and I realized, no, no he is not – that is when I had the courage to stop eating his crumbs and throwing him back the best loaf of my life. He really believed belittling me and arguing with every word I said was adding to the relationship, it was not.
Ask yourself this:
1. If you won the lottery today, millions, would you still want to be with this guy?
2. If you turned into a famous movie star tonight, would you still want him on your arm at the next big bash to act out in front of a crowd and humiliate you to “knock you down a peg”?
3. If he was dating your “daughter” or “niece” or other close relative, and you saw him acting out to some woman/girl close to you, would you tell HER to leave him at the curb?
4. If you were the most popular girl in high school, and you were both still in high school right now, would you let other kids see him treating you like this and STAY with him?
If you can be honest with yourself, you will see you have to go, just think on it, girlfriend. You take it so he keeps dishing it out, I can say that is I ate the dish out for way too long too. It is hard to leave as you will be wishing beyond hope that one day he will change, appreciate you and you want to be there when that happens. It will unfortunately never happen.
Best test ever: Think about what he says out of his mouth to you, the tone and words and everything. Would he say these words to his own mother, grandmother or other women he totally respects? I can tell you, my EUM would never disrespect anyone the way he routinely disrespected me, never ever ever! And we were from different cultures too, (let’s just say his culture was more family oriented and traditional where men ruled the world, so to speak).
The next time he does the silent treatment, block his number. He will get the shock of his life. That is what will give you the freedom to make the best decision for yourself and your life. Love does not hurt, so think about this carefully and good luck.
This is very timely, and a good reminder to listen to my gut instincts. I want to thank you Ms. Natalie – your posts do not fall on deaf ears/blind eyes.
Here’s what happened to me just a few days ago. I met a man through work and he was very enthusiastic to begin dating. I explained that I was in no hurry to jump into serious dating at this time. He seemed okay with that. During one conversation I made an offhand comment that I needed to get my nails done. I mean they are in sorry disrepair, and I was embarrassed that he was looking at them. He said he’d love to go with me and I kind of laughed it off – I couldn’t imagine any man really being interested in such a thing. I gave him my phone number the same day. It was a “let’s be friends first” kind of thing. That evening he sent me a text message that he had gone to a nail salon, made an appointment, and that “we” needed to go the next night, late in the evening.
I had already explained to him that I was currently working 80+ hours a week on a serious project and didn’t have time for socializing until it was over. I had explained to him that I’ve been going to bed by 8:30pm because I’m exhausted. I had explained that my one free day would be spent doing mundane things like grocery shopping, doing the laundry, and cleaning my house.
I almost had myself convinced he was being super-considerate of my personal needs and wanted just to spend time with me. I took some time to reflect and decided the thing to ask myself was “Who does this virtual stranger think he is to make plans regarding my personal grooming for me without even asking me first?” I called him and revisited my current work situation, explained that I was very busy at the moment and felt uncomfortable by his pushiness. His response was that he is “a take charge kind of man”, that he also wanted to take me out to dinner (which would mean even less much-needed sleep!), and he just didn’t want take no for answer.
The red flags were just too much even for my ever-accepting heart to take. This, I’m afraid, is a full-on five-alarm boundary buster.
Nope.
DawnG,
Just could not read your story without commenting. What an absolute stand out response! You have taken care of yourself from the get go here. Absolutely fantastic.
His behaviour was not ‘flattering’ or reflective of a considerate soul but the contrast – he’s shown you quite clearly what respect and consideration of another’s openly stated needs means for him – not much. Once again, great response. If someone can’t or won’t ‘hear you’ at the beginning it does not bear well for the future. This makes me think of Nat’s saying “start as you want to go on”. I’ve found this so useful in so many areas of life and often will say/think it to myself when faced with situations that are initially confusing because of old habits born out of devaluing my self – the simple phrase usually sets me straight and back in line with my own values.
Seems like you started as you wanted to go on Dawn by not pretending to yourself that this man’s inconsideration was anything else other than that. Bravo!
It only went downhill from there because I didn’t outright cut him off at the knees. I thought since I hadn’t heard from him he would just disappear. But no.
He sent me a text asking how I was doing and I responded that I was having a very challenging day. He then sent a sexually suggestive text while I was working. I questioned why he thought this was okay, and he told me I was a tough nut to crack. I told him I wasn’t interested in being “cracked” at this particular time. He said I should call him when I wanted to go out on that date.
Next day I was talking to my BFF about it, and she said she thinks she might know him and please pull up his Facebook profile. He had already un-friended me. So I guess we can call this offically “done”.
Dawn, looks like you’ve dodged a bullet. Just goes to show his initial boundary cross was not some sort of anomoly and he continues to disrespect you. Don’t know what chronological age he is, but by your account he sounds like he’s about four or five in developmental years, at any rate the young child age before he/she starts developing the capacity to understand that another’s needs matter as well and that he/she is not entitled to get what he/she wants simply by imposing themselves while turning a deaf ear. Sexually suggestive texts, text messaging during work – imposing on you whilst hiding behind his little smart phone! Red flags galore…
p.s oh yeah, his ‘defriending’ you on effbook translation: “you’re mean, I don’t wanna be friends with you anymore” and goes and sulks in a corner or runs home to tell his mummy.