I turned thirty-eight last week and while there are many takeaways from what was actually an emotionally tough but very much necessary year—and I’ll be sharing these in another post—one thing that I won’t be doing is stopping short of expressing what I truly feel or think on the basis of “not hurting people’s feelings”.
There are people in this world who could stand to be more conscientious and truly empathise but it’s safe to say that there are some of us who really need to get grounded and own our own and let others own theirs. We can still be conscientious and empathetic but we must not take ownership of other people’s feelings and behaviour and duck out of stepping up and showing up, on the basis that the person in question might not like the way that we’re doing it or might not like our response to their boundary crossing behaviour.
It’s my nature (and my calling) to look underneath the hood of human behaviour and to increase self-knowledge and self-awareness and so I look for the patterns and where I can tweak and adapt, not because I think it will “control the uncontrollable (it won’t) but because I have no desire to be be stuck in my own Groundhog Day.
It is OK for me (and you) to express feelings and opinions that are not all hearts, flowers and My Little Pony vibes. We have a range of emotions to draw on and each one provides clues as to how to take care of us and repeated ones give indications about our inner state.
It is OK for us to not always be able to articulate our feelings and opinions. It matters that we try, try and try again.
It is OK for us to not like being around somebody or what they represent. The sky won’t fall down. Move along. Don’t make it your vocation to try and find a “good point” so that you can be The Good Person or to try to change them. Respect the differences.
“Yes, it is OK for us to consider the feelings of others and to consider the impact of our actions but what isn’t OK is for us to bullshit ourselves about why we’re doing this and to end up doing all manner of self-destructive stuff in an effort to ‘spare’ others from us.
Be conscientious by living your life authentically. If you keep shying away from the business of being you, you are the one who has to live with the consequences and these are far bigger than any short-term discomfort and tension from showing, speaking, or stepping up.
Any person who cannot cope with you coming from a place of love, care, trust, and respect, will shuffle along. It clears the way for people who are in alignment with the way that you conduct yourself.
Remember that you can still be a loving, good, kind, positive person and express feelings and opinions that you’ve typically labelled as negative. It’s called being human and not living so much of your life in fear. You can be direct and conscientious rather than being so achingly conscious of not wanting to be vulnerable and say the “wrong thing” that you don’t really say anything at all. That’s called hinting— a slight or indirect suggestion or indication of something because you don’t want to be explicit in your communication for fear of embarrassment or negative consequences.
I’m never mad at me for being brave. Whenever I’ve been angry about hinting-related stuff, it’s because on some level I’d balked at going “all the way”. I’d known what I truly felt or thought (or I’d had a damn good idea of what the other person was saying or indicating), but struggled to find the courage to address it. Time after time, that’s what many BR stories have an underlying theme of – this sense of frustration that comes from knowing what needs to be said or done but being too scared at the time and feeling regretful.
Thirty-seven was when I learned that I have to go all the way and thirty-eight and beyond will be my continued execution of that.
I hinted at my upset with our ex-landlords, then I hinted at my frustration and disappointment with a professional acquaintance, and then I hinted at hurt and anger with my mother-in-law and mother. It felt as if I was saying a lot in each of these situations (and I was) but I stopped short of laying it down. It’s not because I typically do this but there was a theme of feeling as if I was out of control of my circumstances in a way that I hadn’t felt since I was a child. It was triggering and in the end, rather freeing.
There is a part of you in these situations that thinks, Hold up a feckin’ second here. I’ve laid it out in black and white. Sure, I haven’t gone batsh*t on you but I’ve made it clear that I’m not happy. Why do I have to give you even more? You were there too.
And you know what? It’s normal to feel this way but what it doesn’t acknowledge is that we’re only really making assumptions about how much they understand or empathise plus we’re using hinting as a way of avoiding taking responsibility.
We’re all different. We all need to communicate. We also need to do less trying to anticipate every feeling and thought that a person might have and more be-ing. We must take care of our own side of the street.
It can feel as if we’re stopping short but only “just a little”, like, I won’t say that last bit because I don’t want you to think that I’m being mean, which might not have been the conclusion they would have drawn anyway. At least they’d be able to get a sense of the gravity of the situation because we’re communicating it. They have an opportunity to respond, as do we.
Our perception of what’s ‘short’ may be another person’s ‘ long’ so we might be leaving something off the table that’s vital to truly communicating our position but also to growing us and growing our relationship. We think we’re going to “third base” but we might only be going to “first base”.
It can feel as if we were crystal clear but when we hint at stuff, we take a lot of the substance out of our communication. We apologise for our feelings and opinions or even put words in the other person’s mouth. We list our grievances and forget to state what we’re going to do or what our expectations are. So many people have heard, “This isn’t working” and not realised that the other party is saying but not saying is, “I don’t want to continue dating/working/whatever with you.”
We know we’re going “all the way” when we say what we mean instead of hoping that others will read between the lines.
Our relationships grow stronger when we are owning our own and letting others own theirs. We feel at our best when we speak and act from a place that we know to be true in the sense that we’re trying to do the best that we can by us but also trying to do the best that we can by our relationships because we value them.
What we express represents our understanding at that time. We can evolve. We can gain further understanding by not basing our perceptions of what we’re “allowed” to say or our perceptions of that person’s reactions, on the past because we can inadvertently end up responding as if we’re a kid and they’re an authority.
You cannot know what you feel if you don’t acknowledge it or express it.
We’ve got to stop being so afraid of “hurting feelings”. It’s not about going the total opposite and not giving a stuff about anything or anyone, but guess what? Whichever way we go, there’s going to be feelings out there and even when we think that we’re not saying anything, avoiding conflict, criticism, rejection and disappointment has a hell of a lot of hurt feelings that come with it— ours and yes, sometimes those of the people who we don’t trust to truly engage and communicate with. We end up carrying deep regrets about all of the things that we wished we’d said and done but didn’t.
I’m leaving my prints here on earth and yeah, I’m sure I’ll ruffle some feathers along the way but at least I’ll know that I was here and that I showed up. Please join me.
Your thoughts?
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It’s been a very long time since I posted but felt I had to today. I recently purchased a new car and have to take it back for some issues I’m having with it. It’s still under warranty. First time I went I was pretty much blown off by the guy. I have to go again today and am having slight panic episodes. That feeling in my chest, the shallow breathing. Not wanting to piss anyone off, etc. But the point is I paid big money for a vehicle I have wanted for YEARS. There are a couple things I need addressed about it. This article was exactly what I needed today. In about 15 minutes I’ll be heading to the dealership to say what I want. Deep breaths. Deeeeep breaths. Thank you, Nat. I’m going all the way.
You can do it!
I realize this is pretty late, haha
How did it go?
@ So_True
As it usually does…a lot better than expected 🙂
I actually got to speak with a different person and she was very helpful. But, when the car company sent me a survey about my experience with the dealership I was honest.
Amen. Coming from the childhood I did I was taught to not rock the boat, not trust my feelings and led to believe I am overreacting. Time to unlearn this. I had an opportunity last weekend when a coworker made a pass at me at a concert. We had been drinking but it was completely uncalled for. We were with a group and I have hinted for a year or more that I’m not interested but he didn’t hear it see it. I finally got a chance to be crystal clear and did so, even though part of me just wanted to ignore it and pretend it never happened. But I was MAD. Maybe I should start getting mad more often.
Remember the movie Network? Peter Finch’s best scene of any film:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXqs02lNQMM
I’m really struggling with this with my parents. They are both emotionally abusive in their own love-addicted narcissist/codependent way. I never call them and they never call me. I assume I’ll see them here and there, but moving from enmeshment to estrangement is very odd. There is a huge elephant in the room of what changed and I don’t know what to say, if anything.
I guess I could say nothing but act like an adult and set boundaries. It’s just a hard balance. I feel like I’m still shouldering the burden of THEIR dysfunction and biting my tongue about it. My sister and I both dream about spilling the beans and telling them everything.
Any advice?
@Tangerine; I have spent years telling my mother while remaining more or less codependent. The last few weeks I have cut off due to the last big blowup fight and my feeling that I had actually set a really important boundary that I did not even realize was mine to set. Of course she immediately countered it with her own entitlement but I stuck it out.
I was also taught to not trust my feelings, I was gas lighted by my mother (i never said that! you twist my words! – and she usually says that with this outraged martyred AND pitying gasp to stress how dysfunctional I am poor thing that I so suspiciously misunderstand her… and sometimes also with ‘oh my god, you have twisted my words’ but if you press her she cannot say exactly HOW you might have twisted them or if you misheard then can she repeat what she really said or meant? Nope. So she forces me to go lawyer on her and then reacts all outraged. AND she undermines my grasp on reality in the process. After all its our belief in stability of reality that our ears are functioning okay etc. so if someone makes us doubt that, it shakes the very core of what we think the world is about. Its a way to slowly go mad. Just thinking about it makes me sick to my stomach. And makes me sick that my mother can still get to me, that there is no escape from this and that it undermines my sense of being in the world). And eventually I still visit her usually because I have to – I dont live in my home country and going home means I have to visit her as I have nowhere else to spend a good chunk of time. I know I should probably stop but the guilt will consume me. I dont know how to behave with her, I dont want to see her, I cannot be by myself because I have to protect myself so much to function around her. I dont know why our parents can get to us like this because we’re all adults with difficult jobs, and mortgages and cars and what not but we can’t manage the damage of our childhoods.
Why do you need to tell your parents? I tell my mother quite often, and there has never been any effect. The effects happen when i set boundaries, have a sense of humor, cut her off, or dont communicate whether that means not calling, refusing to invite her, or even refusing to discuss specific issues. I will visit, but such and such is not to be discussed; and I dont have to tell her beforehand, I just refuse to discuss it when it comes up. No, I dont want to talk about that, no i’m not interested, No no no no no. And if the other person isn’t listening, then walk away from them.
So I guess (thanks for letting me rant about my mum!), I would say dont tell them whats what. Just learn how to set boundaries that allow you a modicum of relationship while maintaining an estrangement that probably is working just fine for you. When I’m happy with myself then for me humor works, and being always vigilant with my mum, vigilant to the fact that a lot of what she does is about her, her anxiety, her need for control and not about ME. So understanding your parents better might help you because the danger is that you might turn to them for answers and they cannot provide any. You need to think through your life with them to understand how to deal with them. They will not change. You maybe feel you have a hole in your heart where that relationship should be. You have to fill it with yourself and your resilience. And talk it through with your sibling; I find that that does help.
Tangerine – if you feel any guilt or shame based on your behaviour towards them – whether you do the right thing BY YOU or the wrong thing BY YOU – then yes you are carrying THEIR disfunction which they have pre-programmed into you – so they don’t have to be around you to control/manipulate your behaviour to their benefit.
This is where you get to draw the line. This is where you become. You simply have to stop the guilt and shame from being your personal motivating factor and refuse to accept it, there is ALWAYS a choice and you are not only allowed to take it – it is required, full stop. You do not have to continue to do what is expected of you for people who do not and have not repeatedly made you feel good about yourself.
The huge elephant feeling is really a little white mouse in order to scare you into being submissive to their will. This is not acceptable for any mature adult to submit to – believe me I’ve been there. Do not reward emotionally abusive people of you with your time or worry. Reward people who genuinely make you feel good – only.
Your instinct to not explain/ or explain again? has been mentioned on Natalies posts before – where where she explains clearly that they know!! already and if they were interested would have done something to sort it out – they are good posts and worth a revisit.
I can attest to when ever I have explained my whys and wherefores – I have regularly not been validated by my parents – let alone agreed with or helped to feel better/more happy being with them.
Narcissists will never by definition take responsibility no matter what explanation or reason you give them – mine use it in order to attack me/break my resolve because it is not in their interests to keep my resolve but is in mine to keep it.
Conversations have been switched and its been pretend ignored until I am safely out of the room or vulnerable enough to throw it back at me etc… so now I’m not explaining anymore – whether you do the same or not depends on your honest answer and understanding of your needs as an emotionally separate being to your parents – of the above question at the start of my post. This may be difficult to see right now? as you may still be enmeshed to them even while not in their presence and distance and time away from them, will bring you more clarity even if it is interspersed with momentary lapses just like with non contact and focusing on yourself works in romantic relationships.
oona, tang suki
Very true, the guilt thing is a challenge, but they did program it into you from childhood. Narc parents are the toughest, because they cannot see it as their fault. My father is exactly like this, he doesn’t even know what compassion means, he just doesn’t get it at all! Amazing. Suki, my mom is just like yours too.
The sad thing is that I have taken on the victim role and have sabotaged a lot of my success as revenge. I only recently realized this and it really sucks! I want to turn this around, but haven’t quite been able to yet. And it gets tougher as I get older, I’m really going to have to stop it, but it seems to be some belief I adopted…not a good one. My siblings have chosen success (even if they don’t like their jobs) and seem to side with the narc parents.
well, i should say my siblings don’t let my parents bug them to the degree I did. I wanted to live by my values, but I also like some of theirs and that’s where the problem seems to lie. Still trying to sort out what’s truly mine and what’s theirs.
I know for sure that the men I attract are men my parents would like, usually successful and tend to be narcs, at least somewhat, EU for sure. The unsuccessful men might have more heart, but I don’t feel secure with them, they can’t take care of me. I know, I can take care of myself, but not in the style I would like. I need to give something up and so far I haven’t been willing.
I’m about to go visit a man who might have more heart, but is financially strapped, he can’t even afford to visit me, but I really want to go to his city. I am nervous, because I know I probably won’t chose this man even it I do fall for him.
Oh, well, it’s kind of sad, but I don’t want that kind of struggle, hence the successful narcs. I’m still looking for a guy who has both success (enough for me to feel secure)and heart.
You said:
The sad thing is that I have taken on the victim role and have sabotaged a lot of my success as revenge.
WOW! You have the power and choice to change this. NOW.
Consider doing the broke guy you know might have HEART a BIG favor. Don’t go visit because you want to see his city if you know he does not have what you need (security and money). This is not being considerate or respectful of him. Can you imagine how you would feel if a man wanted to spend the weekend with you but he knows he cant take it further because you don’t have the full package he needs? Don’t future fake this man you describe as financially strapped. He may be broke, but would probably give you more respect then your NARCs.
You appear to have a sense of entitlement that may not serve you well. At this late stage in your life you can still turn things around. Many mature women go back to college and create second acts. Even though your parents want pay consider it. At this stage in your life do you think it is fair for your parents to pay for your education? Consider going back to school or finding an alternative way to support (provide the security) yourself without relying on a NARC or anyone. Otherwise you may end up getting older and still not be able to adequately take care of yourself.
Create your own security. No one else is obligated to do that for you and if they do you will never know when they will pull that security blanket from you. This could leave you out in the cold and bitter. The poor treatment by your parents has left you COLD.
You can make the choice not to play the victim or demand a man provide you with security. The stories on BR should serve as a reality check. Men can decide to check out. Can you take care of yourself when they walk?
You can change your path.
mj
We’ve talked about it, no real future faking going on except if I fall for himtoo much, especially if it’s not reciprocated, that’s what I’m most concerned about, otherwise I think we could be good friends I am hoping, we’ll see.
Mary Jane,
you said ‘You appear to have a sense of entitlement that may not serve you well.’
I’m not sure what you mean, if you are referring to my parents helping me, because my siblings got the help, I do believe I should be entitled to it, only because they were and they are better off than I am. So, yes I want fairness, however, I never expected anything from them (didn’t even want it) until they helped my siblings.
I have had to let that go, whether I am entitled to it or not.
The right moment may present itself one day… It did for me just before Christmas 2014. I was 55, and had never been ‘allowed’ to answer back to my parents. So, after Mum died, and my father married an interfering narcissist like himself, I gradually withdrew – but I didn’t say anything… Then my sister died a few years ago, and I had to see *them* as well. After that, my father became even more controlling, not taking no for an answer, really violating my boundaries. And I’d thank him. Wanting him to love me has been my only mistake… Grieving what can never be feels impossible, because there’s nothing tangible that I’m grieving… So, if you’re not allowing yourself to feel the pain, that would be my only advice. The rest will come once the grief comes up to be healed… (())
Tangarine
I feel like this issue has become my life work. I have parents like that too. Last visit with them was horrific with dad showing me his cold narc side. Mom goes along, other times she shows her nasty side and dad goes along, they are a narc team, mom more borderlineish I think. I am now setting boundaries with her enmeshment with me. After last visit which took me a month to ovecome (do we ever overcome them?) anyway, i am setting boundaries in that i said i want to email only for now, yet she calls (well, she doesn’t know how to use the computer, narc dada does) Ok, listen I need to leave to go teach a seminar (yeah!) will continue when I get back, I did something very interesting with them and had a new mini breakthrough with mom…stay tuned. Please message me if I forget.
tangerine
I allowed myself to be vulnerable with them, which I never did before, I mean showing my pain, which made my mom respond in a very compassionate way, best I’ve seen from her, dad couldn’t quite do that. So, it was a mini breakthrough with mom, her messages she has left since then also felt more from the heart. I am choosing to protect myself right now, because it took me quite a bit of time to recover from the visit, but I do sense a shift with mom and I and more ugly clarity with dad.
This is a good reminder for me. Sometimes when there is a series of challenges or disappointments I start to feel worn down. The fact is it is ok to speak up consistently for ourselves. I know I am an empathetic person who considers others and I’ve learned to make myself ok with considering myself and speaking up. If someone isn’t ok with that I still am! It is always good for me to read even Natalie still has tests and has to help herself through things because in years past one of my biggest obstacles with consistency in taking good care of me was when challenges came still I took it as I couldn’t get it right rather than it being a fact of life. I appreciate this website.
Great stuff. I would add – *doing this* is how I got closure. By saying things like, “I wanted you to be my boyfriend.” “I wanted us to take the trips we talked about.” “I wanted us to spend quality time together.” It hurt like hell to say it out loud to him but it’s how I exposed that we weren’t on the same page. He wasn’t behaving in a way that indicated that what we were doing was leading anywhere or was his priority. It was as if, after the pain, this rationality came over me and I could point out how his statement A did not match behavior X. Saying it out loud made me accountable to myself and then he was confronted by his own words and actions.
In that moment, I stopped worrying about his delicate ego and started to honor my own desires as valid and real – and it became so clear that he had been taking advantage of my desires for his own (limited/selfish) agenda. “Not worrying about his ego” doesn’t mean that I was cruel or hostile to him. Rather, I said my view and told the truth without blaming or attacking. I said what I was observing and once he heard it out loud, the only conclusion anyone hearing my words could reach was: this is over. What a powerful entry, NML. Thank you.
Interesting Michelle, but’s it’s become quite easy for me to say such things and I do it in a non-blaming way. In the past I tried to learn such approach from self-help books but struggled, and now it just comes to me naturally. I guess I understand now that I have the right to my wishes and the other person also has a right to his/her wishes which might not include me. I might not like it but it’s fine with me because it doesn’t reflect on my value as a human being. At least nobody is losing time. Also, I’m now soooo put off by high maintenance behaviour (my father and me desperately trying to please him) though I guess still struggle a bit with hot and cold behaviour. But I’ve just realised I’ve come a long way!
Mephista, I have to confess I am a bit envious of this. I am getting there but sooo slowly. Like pushing glue uphill. It’s like 10 steps back for every one step forward. Any tips?
can’t really pinpoint it – i think that i just finally really understand it and accepted it in my heart. the heart thing is crucial, i think, understanding isn’t enough.
Tangerine, I can relate. This is how I was raised and I can tell you that every time my brother and I have confronted them about it, it has never gone well. They blame us and tell us we’re overreacting and that we ‘had it good.’ I don’t speak with mine because my dad is a mentally ill alcoholic and my mom is a codependent alcoholic. They never see or talk with my kids except holidays. Its very sad…but people who are abusive, narcissistic, manipulative or otherwise ill simply cannot take responsibility most of the time. Knowing that going on, however, you and your sister may feel better just telling them you how you feel. Like me and my brother, you two have each other and KNOW you’re not imagining or overreacting. xo
Meant to say ‘knowing that going in…’
@NML.
“I’m leaving my prints here on earth and yeah, I’m sure I’ll ruffle some feathers along the way but at least I’ll know that I was here and that I showed up. Please join me.”
What a wonderful thing to read.
Best, V.
I struggle with this issue with my FOO. There has been serious dysfunction, I expressed myself both verbally and in writing many times, and in general the response I get is “I don’t want to talk about it”. Several family members are willing to have a relationship with me only if we don’t talk about issues…and these “issues” aka dysfunctional dynamics are a killer for me and it’s unacceptable to me not to resolve them in a way that feels validating and healthy. “I don’t want to talk about it” (when they mean forever, not just needing some time) seems like such a power play to me and completely invalidating.
Oceanic, this is just the same line I have gotten over the last few years from a man who is supposed to be a friend, although with the roles reversed. It’s whenever he wants to express his issues with me – he won’t let me speak at all. It’s like a drive-by shooting.
It’s true that he has all kinds of problems (anxiety, depression, PTSD) but whenever he feels offended or upset by something going on in our relationship, he sends me an email telling me everything that’s wrong with my behavior, then writes “I don’t need or want a response from you, I don’t want to talk about it”. Which means that nothing gets resolved or reconciled, it’s just swept under the rug so he can continue to hang on to hurt feelings and victimhood, and he can control me with a form of silent treatment.
You’re right, this attitude is a total invalidation of you as a person, no matter how the roles are assigned. Either you as someone who has been accused is told to shut up and take it, or you as someone who needs to discuss the things that don’t work well, the boundary-busting and disrespect, is told to shut up, that is isn’t important and you should just get over it.
My friend and I are barely speaking now – just the occasional email, no phone calls (he lives 2 hours away, so I don’t have to see him in my daily life). I’m moving on but it’s hard because, like so many of us here, I was raised to believe that my feelings were of little or no value, that it was my job to caretake the feelings of everyone around me, make it all better, absorb the blame and negativity, and never, ever expect anyone else to own their own issues.
And again, you are so right – it’s a dirty, profoundly unhealthy power game.
I still deal with this crap, and I’m 64 frickin’ years old.
Silverbee, this “friend” deserves the door slammed on him. To unload on you and then say he doesn’t want to hear back from you is downright abusive. How convenient that he gets a one-way street of abuse, right? He is NOT a friend. Let him find someone else to rant at in a one-sided relationship. He will never own his own issues; why should he? He likes the power inequality just as it is!
And I’m 70 frickin’ years old and have had enough of that type of b.s. also!
Silverbee, this is such a manipulative behaviour! I can say whatever s##t comes to my mind (about you) but you have to listen to me and not answer back and criticise me because I’m depressed/ have PTSD/ am very sensitive (my father)/ hold grudges and can’t forgive (my sister)/ don’t want to discuss things. Yeah, right, flush!
What’s a FOO?
I believe it’s ‘Family of origin’ – so it relates to issues from childhood.
Ahh ok, thanks for that.
Otherwise known as F**k Off Out (of my life)if you’re toxic!
Coming into a school year I want no part of, this was just what I needed to read. Although one is sposed to be “professional” always, some of my co workers are just plain not nice people. A chopper, a self centered child, a drama queen and good ol AC. On the other hand, some of my colleagues are awesome and I have the greatest respect for them. I had, earlier this summer, decided to forgo having lunch or doing anything remotely social with all but a few colleagues. This will cause some bewilderment, hurt feelings, but my stress levels and happiness comes first. They’ve had 8 years to get it, and I flat out confront, often numerous times,in a polite, respectful way, no hinting here. This post confirms this. Thanks Nat.
Hello I’m new here, my first post, although I’ve been reading article after article for the past month since I first discovered this site. Thank you SO much NML for your clarity and wisdom and downright sensibleness in all that you say. I have come to some mighty realisations about why I have spent my whole life trying and trying and failing and failing to have a ‘normal’ happy, fulfilling relationship. So many failures, so many EUM and one enormous failed marriage. Failed in that I so desperately wanted the happy family, having grown up without it. All my life I’ve felt trapped behind a glass wall looking at others in (seemingly) happy relationships/families, feeling unable to create one myself. Now I see why they were all doomed to fail – because I gave myself and my self-esteem away bit by bit, hoping that in giving more and more my partner would value me, when I (now seems obvious, but I was blind to it)quite blatantly wasn’t valuing myself. Eyes opened at last! Thank you. And I’ve been NC for 5 weeks today, except for a 3 word birthday text to my ex, to which I received a 3 word reply!One small slip but I forgive myself. Relevant to this post today, I wanted to say – being assertive, which is how I read this, is so empowering, so self-valuing, and I agree that driving straight on through the ‘stop’ sign of the half-expressed feeling, and onto the motorway of full congruence is way to go!
This really touched me, KK. Welcome. I have been in the same place. I found this site to be really helpful in a long journey to wholeness, and I am still walking!
Via this blog I found Get Past Your Breakup, with this excellent post:
http://www.gettingpastyourbreakup.com/gettingpastyourpast/2015/07/being-a-doormat-doesnt-make-you-nice-or-loving-it-makes-you-stupid/
What she says about holding people hostage, and trying to buy them with your actions, and essentially recruiting actors to play parts in your own life, really rang true for me.
Take courage. You aren’t behind a glass wall, although I am very familiar with that feeling myself as well!
Thank you so much Ethelreda for welcoming me and for your empathy and encouragement. I did read the post you recommended which I think was in another thread. Like someone else (can’t remember who) I found it both truthful and a little forceful, I was a doormat (most of my long life) but it wasn’t through stupidity, it was through conditioning from childhood and a misplaced loyalty and willingness to try and understand someone else’s unkind (unfathomable, abusive, aggressive, demeaning, diminishing etc etc ) behaviour and be forgiving. Religious beliefs also played a part in my acceptance that others were more important. I can now see that all that doormatting was very destructive to my own self-worth and probably completely unacknowledged/important to the ones I was giving myself away to, but at the time I didn’t see that. Denial I guess, but with reason. It is definitely through Natalie’s life-changing (for me) website that the glass wall has disappeared, something that years of counselling, self-analysis, heart-searching etc never achieved. I am so thankful! And thank you for replying to my post, so I know I am not invisible.
I ended a friendship with somebody recently. He flaked on me a couple times and I called him out on it and he told me the problem was that I was not being “cool”. My ex husband used to do that whenever I expressed emotions that were not convenient for him. I also grew up in a household where my mother who is a wonderful person in many ways tended to want to minimize things and when I got upset to tell me I was being “irrational”. For the longest time through adulthood I just did not express any emotion that I though might be too damaging and big shocker I have also struggled with chronic depression for years.
Now I am trying to get back to expressing myself clearly especially when I am upset or angry and for the most part people don’t like it. I am not a screamer or a yeller but when I tell people like my now ex friend that I am angry or hurt I get push back, I realized in that instance, hey it is not my fault he is an asshole it is my fault for tolerating it.
Ironically enough women are often told to “say what they want” and accused of being vague in friendship and romance but I think we often default to being vague because when we do express ourselves others and not just men get pretty offended. I had a friend ask recently if she had been neglectful as of late and I said she had been but I thought that circumstances in her life had shifted and she was resetting her priorities and I respected that and I made her unhappy for a moment. But the moment passed and the world did not explode.
On the one hand I am definitely not contented being that person who says things are okay when they are not but there are definitely not any fun prizes for trying to be authentic within oneself either. This is an acute struggle for me because I am at 51 trying to re-build a social circle and think about dating. My divorce coincided with a couple of close friends leaving my city and I impulsively decided to do a graduate degree to fill the void so I withdrew from the world in a real way.
Now that I am back in the world the reality is that people especially in my age group are super wrapped up in their lives. So I am balancing trying to be “nice” to make friends with honestly expressing myself in a way that feels right. The best rule I can come up with myself is that anybody who tries to make me feel like shit or just gives me a bad vibe is to be avoided. When I reflected back, I realized that every time in the past I avoided my gut instinct it resulted in disaster for me.
Sorry I blathered on, I have been lurking here for a long time and this particular post spoke to me.
@Hi Paula. You wrote “Now I am trying to get back to expressing myself clearly especially when I am upset or angry and for the most part people don’t like it”. The last part, I think, is crucial. It’s about control and also ties back to our boundaries. We set a boundary and it often happens that people used to know our boundarie-less previous selves don’t like it and push back (manipulate us via convincing what we feel is not right, by minimizing our opinions/evaluation of the situation etc etc). Or even new people (hello, the wonderful world of dating that is full of people getting outright mad or even surprised at a woman setting boundaries) but this is when our part ends. We put a boundary and the anger that the other person feels towards it is THEIR problem. I feel that as women we are somehow socialized to take on trying to take responsibility for everyone’s feelings (often as a form of controlling our environment). But it’s not healthy. Some boundaries are meant to make some people mad.
But setting boundaries don’t suddenly turn nice people into angry pushy people. They just highlight it.
I agree with your comment that women are socialized to become responsible for people’s feelings. I used to balk at the idea of using a scrip to respond in certain situations, it felt too phony but now I am seeing their utility.
“Some boundaries are meant to make some people mad.
But setting boundaries don’t suddenly turn nice people into angry pushy people. They just highlight it.”
Why – this is spot on, I love this. One of the hardest things about changing our behaviour, and meeting our own needs, is that we think we’re gonna get a cookie because we’ve finally seen the light and done good by us. The shock comes because the ‘prize’ is often a very uncomfortable feeling and ‘punishment’ from whoever it is we’re trying to draw the line on.
BUT, as you say, this is just a huge signal that the boundaries are working. If the other party liked what we did, then it would probably be serving them and not us, wouldn’t it… ? 😉
Boundary setting, which I learned from Nat’s wonderful site, as well as from a great therapist, is a long game. The rewards don’t come instantly, but when they do come, they last for life.
struggling today – I’m on a mixed ability community craft course which I really enjoyed but have found one male also on the course who has mental health difficulties, has taken to an emotionally abusive manner in communicating with me on several occasions and its stopping me going in to do work from a dread of having any contact with him – which totally reminds me of my ex’s emotionally abusive ways – so I made an appointment and finally opened up to voice my needs to a woman significantly in charge enough to possibly help me find a space I could work away from him – as I understand his behaviour is possibly due to his illness and I cannot deal with him and my problems right now – I need to focus on mine and let others focus on theirs.
She immediately told me I wasn’t the first to have a problem with him – apparently others (plural) had been to her before about him – (hense the other room which is small being full – where he isn’t – and the large room where he is, being fairly empty?) and she then started to go on and on and on – un provoked or encouraged by me, into detail about HIS problems finishing up on – ‘but his mental health ability is surprisingly clear, people presume it isn’t but it is….’ ????
Er…..What the hell was that supposed to mean????
I had just spoken to her about healing from major trauma and how I acknowledged it affected my mental health.
I reacted!! and defended myself – I thought – only I didn’t in reality.
I said that I was not familiar with his mental health problems personally and that it was my problem with being reminded of being abused that I was concerned about finding a solution for and looking for help with…. and that I had worked for a number of years with people with the condition she mentioned he apparently has and so I am familiar with it – and what it isn’t.
(I didn’t tell her this but the condition she mentioned IS a mental health illness and she had told me what I considered to be confidential health information about someone else’s health which I hadn’t asked for and didn’t want – I asked for a different space/time to work in – where I could feel safe).
I realised I felt thoroughly uncomfortable in the moment with her and afterwards basically realised by over emphasizing that I was looking for a solution to my problems – I absorbed all the blame – for him emotionally abusing me! – It didn’t once occur to me in the moment to simply ask directly …’ are you implying you feel I have mistaken his mental health condition and am blaming him wrongly for emotionally abusing me? or ‘are you defending someone I feel abused by? and have you ignored others possible abuse?’ or ‘can you stop giving me confidential information about anothers personal health conditions and focus on helping me find a way to co exist in this workspace in safety?’….any number of things I could have asked and I wanted her help so much I absorbed all blame and responsibility ….she ended the meeting by informing me that the tea she had made us both she had stopped drinking ages ago during the conversation because she thought the milk was funny and that she had ;a keen sense of taste for these things’ – luckily I had stopped drinking it also mainly due to the fact I realised it tasted absolutely disgusting and I informed her I wasn’t used to drinking tea and that I thought it was just the over stewed manner in which she had made it.
She has found me a women’s group for one afternoon but I feel I really was dragged through it in order to get any help – it’s interesting – that it never occurred to her to be horrified by the experience I was telling her I had experienced or sorry or upset for me — and that it never occurred to me to question why she wasn’t horrified, sorry or upset – until I got away from her – when I remembered! she had done something similar to me once before.
I’ll be staying away from this person in future – I don’t think I left any prints today apart from telling her her tea was disgusting – I’m working on it….
Oona
That sounded just awful to have to deal with that. Sadly, often others in authority do tend to either condone the bad behavior or just refuse to deal with it. Because this is a more affordable area, we have a disproportionately high number of untreated mentally ill folks, mainly hoarders but also others as well. Most of us lack the training to effectively deal with the mentally ill, yet we have to deal with their behavior, which in the case of hoarders, means situations that can be a major fire/health hazard for all. One of these folk can become very violent immediately when taken to task about his hoarding, which, in the past, has literally blocked a city street. While I feel for someone mentally ill, that’s not a green light to endanger or threaten anyone.
I stopped short just a little for far too many years with my mother. When I finally found the courage to call her on her manipulative and toxic behaviour, I was able to finally start living my life for me – long over due!
I realised something important. The only reason we hesitate to tell someone everything is because we’ve allowed them, to some degree, to have ownership or control of our feelings and given them free licence on that front. When you take into consideration that certain people cannot be trusted with respecting our vulnerabilities, it is an unwise move indeed not to keep our hands on the steering wheel at all times.
So very true BermieGirl. there are many people who cannot be trusted with our vulnerability and its mandatory for us to keep our hands on OUR steering wheel at all times.
I learnt that the hard way with the AC I was involved with. Sometimes I wonder if I have gotten too tough with other people stepping over my boundaries but at the end of the day I realise I haven’t when the red flags consistently show up in their words and actions.
It’s so important for us to say SOMETHING to these indivuals the minute they start using or abusing us. that gives them a clear message that what they are doing or saying is not appropriate and if it continues they will be CUT OFF.
We aren’t doing ourselves any favours giving AC’s, narc’s etc any room to keep coming along and use and abuse us.
One shot, keep it simple, thank you so much for that post Nat, it has made my life so much easier.
I’m joining!! Day by day I am growing into my own shoes – feeling more confident in expressing myself (including the ‘negative’ emotions). As an artist I would express feelings or observations and tie them sentiments… and that felt like a comfortable space to share those parts of me. But now that I am in a relationship that I value with a person that seems to as well.. interpersonal relationships are a whole other ballgame. I’m glad that I found your blog after an encounter with a Mr. Unavailable/Future-Faker… and with the help of a counselor 🙂
Thank you!
Katharina
Good for you! How did you make the change?
This post really resonated with me. 4 months out from a ended 5 year relationship it burns me still that i did not express my true thoughts and feelings to my manipulative and deceitful ex girlfriend.
I was not true to myself in voicing and calling to account her bad behaviour as i still held out hope for reconciliation. I was not being authentic to myself and in doing so further diminished my self esteem. Am tempted to write and deconstruct her narrative that made her think she was right and the winner. But me seeking validation will not make me feel any better but it does irk me that she walks away definite in her mind she did no wrong.
Not all EUM’s and AC’s are only guys !
I come from the other end of the scale. I was in a physically abusive relationship as a young woman, which I just conveniently pretended wasn’t happening. But after that experience ended, I gradually began to express a huge amount of anger about various things, and I think that I said and did things that were too full-on and sometimes inappropriate.
Sometimes, though, it WAS appropriate, such as when I was bullied at work twice in five years, and had to seek legal action to protect myself and my job. Both can be true: the inappropriate, and the appropriate. I love that Nat says ‘that’s OK’, because I also need to hear that a lot more often.
The Catch 22 for me is that I have been forced – by a continuous lack of parental and male protection all my life, and in fact repeated abuse from childhood onwards – to stand up for myself. I have done so. And I then get told that men don’t like strong women who can take care of themselves; that my competence and intelligence and high level of education ‘frighten them off’.
I was not aware that the so-called dominant sex were quite such timid forest creatures, but I have learned that any man who needs me to chase him is NOT WORTH CATCHING. I like sensitivity and kindness and gentleness in a man, but I also like a spine and some testicles. The two are not mutually exclusive!
My solution to the apparent conundrum is to be single and enjoy it as much as I can. This involves cultivating and practising genuine values and a decent character; being useful, productive, hardworking and also kind, funny and good company. This is a full-time job for me already. It is a full-time job for any woman.
I think it’s sad that we have been sold such a pack of lies about needing to be less than we can be, in order to ‘get a man’. I don’t have the luxury of floating about the place in a gauzy frock, spending hours on maintaining my waist-to-hip ratio, playing dumb, and sporting long hair which does not actually become me. I have never had that luxury, because I’ve had to earn a living and have lived away from home since I was 19 years old.
I am here. I have totally showed up. And I am looking forward to continuing to show up. It doesn’t matter if I’m with someone or not. That doesn’t mean I won’t be lonely sometimes, or yearn for a partner, or get down from time to time. I know plenty of partnered women who experience loneliness, distress, neglect, abuse, insecurity, nervousness, timidity, lack of confidence, and low self-esteem.
Having a partner is NOT the solution to these problems. Showing up and being real is the solution.
Ethelreda, what a powerful comment! Thank you for writing this. I feel inspired by your wonderful words, really.
Coincidentally I can sign under almost everything you have written: abusive relationship in my 20’s, left home (for another country) at 19-ish, not spending time on pretending to be someone else (but spending time to find out who I actually am).
Ethelreda
Tis funny, I have very black, actually blue-black hair past my a$$ and am told I should cut it off because its “not appropriate” for a woman of 55 years. Folks think my bright colors that I wear, and yep, I am gonna wear a gauzy top today, it’s hot out, are inappropriate but then, so were the baggy work clothes I wore last night to haul firewood. No win. Screw them all!! No one, repeat, no one should dim their light for anyone. A coupla female colleagues, smart strong women, become total downtrodden, used Debbie Doormats when with their partners who are, in many ways, far “less than” they. Nope. Nope. Nope. I like being outrageous and redefining what it means to be an older woman. Ive led a varied life, done lots of things, met many awesome folk, and am proud of it. Yep, so many of these guys fully expect you to be there solely to support HIM. If a guy says you’re”doing too much”, it’s because they haven’t done enough. Shine on.
Noquay, LOVE your comment about “being outrageous and redefining what it means to be an older woman”!
I’d also like to point out that even in our “western” world the idea of an “older woman” differs so greatly across cultures and countries. The moment you mentioned your long hair and gauzy top I immediately thought of the ladies I see when visiting Milan (Italy). Long hair, short dresses should they want to. Elderly gentlemen hitting on them left and right and younger folk ogling them in admiration (both male and female). It’s not the clothes or the length of our hair that bothers those people who try to shame us into dimming our light or forget about boundaries. I am becoming convinced that it’s their own feeling of being inadequate or not willing to confront why they are annoyed at how we challenge their ideas of beauty/relationships/communication/etc that is at the heart of this all. In a sense, it’s straight out xenophobia.
Why, I don’t know how old you are, but 55 is not that old and long hair can look good, I know lots of 55 year old women who wear their hair long and it looks good and is perfectly appropriate.
Who cares what other people think, screw them!
I would love to join you Nat! One of the things I love most about my career is the criticism. I (sincerely/really) love to stand in front of people and hear what they truly think of my creations. It’s so exhilarating because so many times we’re told to be nice over honest. Niceness is fine sometimes but it’s like sugar — a bit is delish — but a diet on that is impossible to healthily sustain. Being nice generally is not a huge catalyst for solving problems. Getting right down to the truth is always the best way.
And I never get close to people who have an aversion to honesty these days.
Speaking of going all the way, I do have a question I’d greatly appreciate feedback on.
So. It has been three years of No Contact (with some fumbles) with the ex. I don’t want to be with him. I accept him for who he is, but I don’t want to date who he is.
I’ve been single for the three years since the ex and the better part of a decade.
I’m not really dating and haven’t been. I have male friends that I enjoy convo with and that’s all. I see people getting married and having babies and so forth. And the only thing I can feel is gratitude that it’s not me. My childhood was crazy and I don’t have it in me to properly raise a kid at this point and even if I were more stable, I don’t think that’s what I’d want to do with my stability. I just want to work on my career, be alone, eat tacos and hang out with my dog.
I don’t feel inferior for not being married or having kids, & I’ve seen a recent theme in these really low key magical warm fun loving weddings which is nice, but even then I don’t think I want that.
I am over the exes (thanks to Nat & Co. aka BR). But now I just want to be alone with my newfound freedom. I want to give myself the peaceful childhood I never had and I think I’d resent a baby if I had one.
As for a boyfriend, I can’t really see the point. I take care of all of my needs and feel fulfilled. & I typically like doing most things alone…eating out, movies, walks, swimming, shopping etc. All alone. And in social situations, the more people the more miserable I am. I have a friend who is my complete opposite but honors this — our plans take into account my hermit crab lifestyle.
I like my life and even the idea of being solitary and sexless for a lifetime just working and being around pretty things, and eating tacos.
Can this come from a healthy place?
Ha! Absolutely!
As a fellow hermit may I suggest finding a group of likeminded people on the internet for the times you want intellectual stimulation and converse with people but also feel quite hermit’y (I am going on a limb here with this assumption, maybe you’re totally different so please pardon me in advance) ? Michelle mentioned Dr Nerdlove in the previous post and there’s quite a community of smart and articulate people around it. Sometimes I feel just so much love for the opportunities living in 2015 provides. For meeting people, for connecting to the right people and still feel like you don’t have to sacrifice a large chunk of your emotional stability for this.
I think this desire to be alone can absolutely come for a healthy place where you feel self-sufficient. So can a desire to be coupled with someone 😉
Peanut
This is where you are right now and it’s A. OK. Time alone is healthy, especially when youre healing, growing as a person, figuring out your life. It’ll be OK 20 years from now too it that’s what feels right for you.
@Peanut; Yes, totally a healthy place. You’re setting your own boundaries, recognizing your needs, and acting accordingly while doing your best to not hurt anyone. What could be healthier?
If not for society’s expectations instilled in me, i would be happy alone forever. I would like a dog. I would like family. I just dont think I can do romantic relationships anymore. I realize now the type of guy that I want, and I doubt he exists or if he does I might be too old for him. When they say you should know yourself and a good relationship will come – its not true. You need to find someone that ALSO knows themselves and is on the same journey as you.
The type of learning we get from BR-type things (books, conversations, actions that are authentic and validate us) in fact will make it more likely that we will remain single; all those guys you dated that quickly rebounded with other women, they are not on BR like sites, they are not exploring their emotions, childhood issues, boundary issues, taking responsibility etc. So if you meet them again, you’ve grown in so many ways, and they havent. The less evolved the other person is, the more they are likely to want it to feel like ‘romance’. The ex-EU told me that I didn’t make him feel like he could ever be in love with me; then he proceeded to keep coming around, hitting on me etc etc (yes I know it took me a while to realize).
So now I’m single and I have a no b.s. diet. Its hard to find no b.s. romantic partners, I’ll keep looking. I heard some stories from a friend about someone she is dating – shudder. She’s finding it hard to look beyond the drama, she realizes that it is drama but she’s still trying to make sense out of nonsense. There but for the grace of god.
Suki,
“I realize now the type of guy that I want, and I doubt he exists or if he does I might be too old for him. When they say you should know yourself and a good relationship will come – its not true. You need to find someone that ALSO knows themselves and is on the same journey as you.”
I have thought the same… I’m doing all this work for myself, and to make better choices, specifically as these choices relate to relationships. Last year the man whom I thought was aligned with me, with my basic values and goals, who claimed that he’d worked on himself, who spoke of being mindful and aware, ended up being the very same person who drove me to find this BR website. What I “see” in my world includes men who are:
married or otherwise attached
the wrong age
needy (financially or emotionally)
physically unfit/unhealthy
unavailable
only interested in sex
non-committal
uninterested
I knew what I was looking for in a partner before BGE and before this site. He is the only person I’ve ever met that has matched these qualities. Of course future faking, gas lighting, minimizing, disappearing, and rejecting are NOT on my list. BR has reinforced what is an absolute “no” but I agree Suki, healthy options are extremely limited. I haven’t even MET anyone, appropriate or NOT, in months.
Hi Peanut! OHH YES. Choosing the solo life can be not just healthy but AMAZING.
First, I think there are greater social stigmas surrounding women who are single vs. men. When women are single, as we age, the questions loom over us – what’s wrong with her? (and we ask ourselves same)… It’s so transgressive for a woman to make her own life that we can start to wonder, “Am I really happy?” Everyone else can seem *so* uncomfortable with us being single, we start to wonder… am I delusional?
Second, it’s a radical thing to live a solo life, especially as a woman. It breaks a lot of social expectations about what’s supposed to be meaningful and important to us culturally – that our lives should revolve around men, children, family (especially). So, when our lives DON’T revolve around that, it’s difficult for some to believe we’re happy (including US)! I’ve been called “selfish” – for focusing on my own goals and projects rather than looking for love. That says more about that person than it does about me.
You may be discovering that the cultural boxes of a “proper life for a woman” don’t fit – and that may make some people uncomfortable. But that’s because you’re not following the rules – which means they don’t have to follow them either – which means (my guess is) THEY may be worried they didn’t choose a life in alignment with who THEY are.
There are many famous women who never married – especially women in the arts. I’ve found reading their biographies to be so inspiring, empowering. Mary Cassatt, Oprah Winfrey, Clara Barton, Coco Chanel, Simone deBeauvoir, Diane Keaton…
Go forth and be untethered – the single life is a wonderful life. It’s on your terms, on your schedule – you’ll look back and say, I did it my way! You can relax at the end of each day, knowing your life is exactly the way you want it to be. Be proud. xoxo
I agree. I can’t subscribe to other people’s expectations that I should be Bridget Jones, crying ‘I hav-ent got a boy-friend – boo-hoo-hoo’ on a regular basis so that they can feel better about their own bad relationship.
But I have to point out – well, I don’t have to, but I am going to point out – that Oprah’s been hanging on to that man she’s with for an awfully long time, and Simone de Beauvoir’s choice to be Sartre’s doormat was a terrible betrayal of the stuff she used to write about with such conviction. He cheated on her constantly and treated her like shit.
But there’s always Florence Nightingale – hahahahahaha! And it’s such a shame we have to use her as shorthand for our fix-it-heal-the-broken mania, because the real Florence was an amazingly strong woman who did really incredible stuff in a hugely patriarchal society. And she wasn’t a ‘Florence Nightingale’, either, ironically – she was not hung up on fixing broken individuals, but on driving major reforms to the healthcare industry, based on accurate data collection and statistical analysis …
… just goes to show ya ….!
yes! sounds like you are an introvert which is a perfectly healthy and normal way to be
Hi Peanut,
Agree with all the absolutes on your side i.e. you are coming from a healthy place so no need to self-doubt there (trust yourself basically and go with what’s in alignment with you now).
Stick with the content you wrote in paragraph 6 (…want to be alone with my new found freedom and giving yourself what you missed out on growing up…) The gentle nudge will come your way re where to next. Live well, fully, and intimately in your own space.
Dear Peanut, given all you’ve posted here on BR about the incredibly screwed-up family you’ve come from, I say hooray to you for creating a beautiful solo life for yourself. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it, it is most definitely the healthiest response you could have as far as I can see.
Unhealthy is going after situations and people who have repeatedly shown us that nothing we do, say, or become, nothing we offer of ourselves, is of any value to them – other than to serve as their toxic emotion dump sites. Who the hell needs that???
I’m with you, sometimes the greatest things in life are good food, and a loving pet at one’s side!
Yes! @ the idea that we are considered selfish for being alone. I heard this from my mum; not so much selfish but that I dont really understand responsibility and am really lucky that I have no one to take care of. Hello! I am single handedly taking care of myself. That means when I am sick there is no one to even run to the store for medication, or make me tea. Sure, there are friends that will step in if I really needed help, but overall, every decision, every meal, every laundry run is by me alone. THis is both liberating and very very exhausting. I like the freedom very much but to think that somehow this is easy or low responsibility is ridiculous.
AND I remember what my mum was like when I was a kid, how much she resented my dad, and her responsibilities, what a martyr she was, and how she terrorized me, and insisted that her taking care of me was a debt i could never repay. Whats so noble about that kind of ‘responsibility’?
A single woman makes others afraid. Women who are unhappily attached fear you because you show them exactly what they dont yet have the strength for; years ago, a few friends who had recently divorced/broken up with ACs were sitting with a friend that was still with her AC and hadn’t fully realized he was AC> As we talked about our exes and our reasons for leaving, she got more and more uncomfortable. She was seeing him for who he was. SHe got up and said I’m so glad that X is not that kind of guy, I’m so lucky, I’m going to call him right now. And she went off to call him. If I didn’t like her so much I would have been offended by what a rude thing that was to do. But she was realizing that women that she respected had left men for doing what her bf did, AND that what he was doing was problematic as all hell.
The Mens Rights Activist are convinced that a single woman has made her choices (that is, pursued a career on her own terms) and therefore now deserves to have no family and no man. A single woman makes them afraid because that woman is saying that she doesnt need a man – but really she is saying that unless she’s treated the way she thinks she deserves, she’s fine alone. If all women said that, the lousy MRA type men wouldn’t even get to a first date.
Ahh, Suki. Your comment reminded me of an old ex-bf who made me wait until he “finished dinner” so he could help me go downstairs and into the ER car that was waiting for me. I was so sick I could barely move but having to deal with his selfishness and stupid remarks about my health made me realise that to be handling maladies on me own is SO MUCH easier than with that string of ACs I used to have in my life.
Suki,
I LOVE what you have said in this post. God bless the child that’s got his own. There is nothing like being independent!
I just love this.
You said:
The Mens Rights Activist are convinced that a single woman has made her choices (that is, pursued a career on her own terms) and therefore now deserves to have no family and no man. A single woman makes them afraid because that woman is saying that she doesnt need a man – but really she is saying that unless she’s treated the way she thinks she deserves, she’s fine alone.
I agree with you. I can take care of myself and if someone can’t treat me right then I wish they would just go away PLEASE.
MJ
Yes MJ,
It’s all about respect. Is this group for real? I’ve been taking care of myself too, all my life, but it would be great to SHARE. (ps I’ve never surfed, but I have tried stand up paddle boarding. Nobody to do it with routinely though!)
Hi Say Something,
Sharing with someone else would be amazing. There has always been a major disparity in income with men I have dated. I earn more. I don’t have an issue with this as long as they don’t. But they have to SHARE. At least when they walked away from us we didn’t need their financial support. That would have been a major blow.
Speaking of Malarkey (smile). I am still want to build new friendships. Do you recall I had dinner with someone who is engaged and basically said she is too darn busy to do anything? Last night I received a late evite from her to come to her new house warming. She sent it to me days before her house warming. You know I want to make new friends. I am put off at how late I received the invite. Six weeks ago I thanked her for dinner and never heard a peep from her.
I went online last night and shipped her a gift. I can’t go, but I think it stinks that she ask me to come so late. She said she didn’t have my correct email address and apologized for sending it so late. Really?
It is hard to have real life friends. Everyone wants to text. What are you doing to cultivate new friendships? I took a break after being stood up a couple of times.
Have you heard King of Pain (Sting)? These words in their song ring true for me as I continue to search for new connections (friends).
There’s a little black spot on the sun today
That’s my soul up there
It’s the same old thing as yesterday
I striving for change. I am keeping my heart open also like you suggested dear friend.
MJ
Call me a cynic, MJ, but I think the housewarming invite was simply to wheedle a gift out of you, which you provided. I would not have gotten her a gift if I was unable to attend.
She’ll be back. The very next time she wants to hit you up for some money – a baby shower, some homesale item – jewelry, cosmetics, etc.
It’s all too familiar…I been there.
Hi Elgie,
I was laying out on the beach in the sun and I swear I had the same thought cross my mind. I got the feeling I was being USED. She got me. I bet I never hear from her again until she wants something else. I sent her a fabulous gift. I hope she enjoys it.
She disappeared for weeks and then she reappeared with an invite. All I wanted was someone who wanted to go to movies, dinner, shopping or just meet up to talk. I just have to take a deep breathe. I just can’t get the small things I need in my life.
Nope. She probably didn’t lose my email. Elgie your feedback is why I want a real girl friend in my life. She would have told me -not to send the gift if I was unable to attend just like you did. I m convinced one day I will have a genuine friend to depend on and share good times with.
I have spent my time investing in my education and business. Then I devoted my time to a relationship. I wish along the way I had secured one damn friend. This is what makes healing hard. It is just ME. I am trying to reconnect with some college friends. If people would just stop with all the texting.
You called this one like it is.
MJ
Elgie R, my thoughts exactly.
Mary Jane, authentic friendships work both ways. You rewarded her for zero effort. She hasn’t even given you basic courtesy and she gets a gift?!
The invite was sent late deliberately and she’s relieved you couldn’t attend. And be glad you didn’t. She would have put on a great show pretending to be besties to impress those she actually cares about. You would have felt guilty for thinking (correctly) that she’s full of shit and when you contacted her, she’d ignore you until she’s at a loose end or needs something.
If you’re feeling this pissed off, and you haven’t even got a friendship with her, imagine how much worse you’re going to feel down the line when you’re putting in your 100% plus an extra 95% to make up the shortfall of her 5%?
I feel for you. Had too many years of one-sided so-called friendships also. No more. No one is that special.
Spend your precious energy on those whose ACTIONS prove they want to become friends.
sounds like the friend did take mj out to dinner not long ago; right?
that dinner is what made her know that mj would want to reciprocate somehow.
thing is, the friend didn’t want mj to reciprocate with a one-on-one dinner that mj would host/provide.
she wanted mj to reciprocate exactly as things turned out: with mj’s present but without mj’s presence.
good thing you sent the gift after the shower. if you sent it before, she would have had the opportunity (at her housewarming) to acknowledge it publicly, and get people talking about mj’s broken engagement while mj is not there.
yucky friend.
Hi Used,
This made me laugh:
she wanted mj to reciprocate exactly as things turned out: with mj’s present but without mj’s presence.
Just for clarification she doesn’t really know me. Also, I never really discussed my broken engagement with her. With all new potential friendships I don’t want to bring that up. I would prefer to start over without that being the topic of conversation.
That cant define the future I have ahead of me. I have captured all my learning points for sure. But it does not help me to continue to discuss it with everyone. I am reframing my story and letting it go as I move into the new phase of my life. With each day that passes it just becomes a thing of the past.
I don’t spend much time mulling over the engagement. I m traveling alone and I crave the opportunity to build new friendships. Everyone at BR drinks are on me tonight. Smile.
Have a beautiful weekend ladies and may everyone have the desires of their hearts one day.
MJ
Hi MJ,
I read the other comments, including your response and indeed this scenario could be true. But a question for you…and please don’t take my question as trying to be hurtful. But I wonder… Is there a part of you trying to buy her friendship? And I mean, is there a part of you that thinks ‘wow, she CAN’T ignore me if I send this fabulous gift. She will see my value, and how thoughtful I am. She’ll see what a good friend she’s missing out on. She’ll see that I’m thinking of her, and had time to send a gift EVEN THOUGH it was last minute and I couldn’t make it.’ Because you overcompensated for someone undeserving. I’ve done it. This is the woman with the semi-public-famous guy right? I loved your story about having people over cleaning and chatting and cooking for them. That won’t make a friendship either, but those women weren’t expecting anything from you or using you.
And yes, I know king of pain, and got to see Sting perform several years ago! I had to attend a work related meeting this week @ 20 people. We had to give introductions and talk about the highlights of our summer. I was THE ONLY ONE. THE ONLY ONE without a beautiful vacation story or plan. One woman even described her vacation at the place I was promised by BGE. I can apply that song. It hurt to hear all that and know that I have nobody to go with. I don’t know how you do it. And I’d be happy sitting on a rock for a week with someone that wanted to spend time with me. it’s not even about the location, it’s the sharing of time together.
What do they, all those other people, have that I don’t? I looked around and wondered. What do they have that I am lacking? This is exactly why I have questioned that I must have some fundamental flaw. People who care about them and love them. That’s what they have. If I ever, ever, EVER have a vacation, it will be all the way. It will be with someone who WANTS to be with me. Someone who cares enough to spend time with me.
NML said, ‘You cannot know what you feel if you don’t acknowledge it or express it.’ I think we’re both good at knowing what we feel.
Happy belated b-day, Natalie.
Hi Say Something,
That is a fair question based on how I am always saying I would pay for one happy day or I would empty out my bank account to erase all this PAIN. But if you were around me you would see that I do nice things for people. You said I have a heart of gold and other people have said the same. Smile. Some things I shouldn’t do. Yes you have it correct it is the lady with the high profile fiancé.
This Summer I was invited by 2 clients to weddings. I sent gifts because I just could not go to a wedding right now -too much right now for me to do. When I get invites and I cant attend I send something.
I send flowers and other gifts to people because I really like sending joy to other people. I really have no expectations. But I need to reel this back in a bit. I admit that I can go over board. In this case I did just that. I don’t know her. If I told you what I sent her. You would virtually beat me. Maybe it was the loneliness of being out here alone and having one soul contact me. I don’t know. It was good to go to dinner with her. She showed me vacation pictures and she was with 30 plus girlfriends. My heart sank. I want that. They went to a vacation spot that I traveled to all ALONE.
BTW she sent another email telling me that some great guys would be coming to her place for the house warming. Sigh. I would LOVE a new friend. I promise you I want try to purchase one.
Like you in the office listening to vacation stories-I just looked at the vacation pictures she showed me and said that could be me with the group instead of traveling all around SOLO. So, she said to me you can go with us next time. I admitted to her that I had spent time building up other areas of my life and I neglected to build friendships. Then she told me that she was BUSY with her sweetie pie. Anthony Robbins says our choices lead us to where we are. I swear I had no idea it could be so damn lonely and painful. The things I need in my life are attainable. I have met some really nice people in foreign countries. If I invest the time I can build a new friendship and it will not cost me a dime.
I have been traveling alone and you are right it is best to do it with someone. I have had some good days. Really good food. I am just on a roller coaster ride right now (up and down).
Thank you for being so thoughtful.
MJ
MJ,
Really good food is on my list of really good things! Glad you are experiencing wonderful things.
I have no doubt that your gifts are given from the heart. I can only IMAGINE what you sent. I’m starting to think of the movie Bridesmaids and the over the top (but hilarious) shower scene:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B0gHAvB1X9k
I LOVED this movie and I would like to nominate it for the BR movie list, if such a thing exists. Also, I’ll add The Sweetest Thing. One of the best authentic, feeling your feelings meltdowns, that many of us could relate to AND laugh about. I SO relate to Kristen Wiig’s character.
MJ, stay true to yourSELF, be your authentic giving self, and don’t allow the beautiful group vacation pictures to make you work harder to try to belong to an unknown entity. Maybe within this group are some people you might connect with. Just leave out the trip to Paris and the giant ‘stupid f-ing cookie’!
NML: ‘We know we’re going “all the way” when we say what we mean instead of hoping that others will read between the lines.’
I hope you and others found some humor and comfort in that clip above. Yes, extreme example, but sometimes we really need a good laugh. That is one of my favorite *going all the way* scenes. In real life, we might want to tone it down a bit.
Hi Say Something,
I can’t tell you how many times I have seen this movie. I LOVE it!! It is one of my favorites. That is one of the scenes I love. I die laughing also when Melissa M. is riding around with all the little doggies that were given as party favors. I would get one of those if I didn’t have to clean up his poop.
You were asking me about how I traveled alone. I figured I might as well or sit at home alone counting the tile on the floor. I had one person who could have traveled with me but she just opened a new office in Dubai and wanted me to go there. That is not on my list of places to go for the Summer. She is someone I have known for about 8 years. I know I am on BR complaining to you about wanting friends. I really like her but she can be a tad boring. Yawn, but I do love her. I told her I am going to light a torch under her. The two of us have a vacation planned for September. We have done business together and have some nice talks by phone. We share life secrets. It is just tough getting people to pick up the phone or getting to meet face to face. Is everyone really this busy? I guess so.
I arranged a birthday party for her once. One of her friends was being really nasty with me. She was so rude -looking me up and down. Women can be cruel. So, I left the party and went back to my ex’s home. Now, I wish I had given up a couple of days of being wrapped up in his arms to cultivate my friendships. MAJOR REGRETS. This pal hasn’t given up on me. So when we both land we may do more together. I want someone to be there to be a friend.
We both laugh about our differences. I cant get her excited about going to Barneys and shopping for hours. I tried to get her to spend a day at a museum. No go. I am not trying to change her but she is low low maintenance. We do have some things in common. We also both love to travel and we are looking for that special someone.
She stays on the road traveling the world. We are both going in opposite directions right now. She is the one person I am going to reconnect with. We are just a tad bit different and I guess we shall see.
I don’t pick up the phone to call people because EVERYONE is texting. When I call it goes to vmail and the next second they are texting me WTF. I do it too. Yet I m here really hurt and crying about friends. I don’t want to be a pest to anyone. So, I find comfort coming here to BR. Right now I m going to focus on building a friendship with the friend I have known. She doesn’t get excited about a pair of Valentino Rockstud pumps or like the same movies I do and that’s ok.
I am going to travel with her and we can share stories about looking for that special someone. We can even exchange business ideas.
Elgie you made a great point about not looking at these groups and couples in envy. Everyone may not be as happy as I think they are.
I have been doing yoga and having a dose of Anthony Robbins this week and it is helping. Oh and a piece of chocolate cake every single day.
Say Something I agree with you I would sit out on a rock with someone right now just to have great company.
MJ
MJ, I have those same lonely feelings. Have had them all my life. I think a common quality in we BR refugees is that we’ve grown up lonely and disconnected and just don’t know how to fix it. I remember there was a brief moment in college when I had a “crew” where I was an integral part and I felt connected…the only five people who joined the Math society and I was the only person of color. But I remember the friendship, and it was great…going to the movies and people actually not wanting to do things unless you could make it too, studying together, staying at each others homes, meeting up in the quad, playing cards. It is nice to belong.
But don’t assume that everyone who is coupled up or everyone who has a group of friends are all happy and supportive of each other. There’s a lot of false friendships out there.
Maybe these men’s rights folks need to understand that we chix also need to pay bills, buy groceries, put a roof over our heads, same as them, eh? Not only do we “not need” men, but rather have them around because we WANT them, (BTW what sane person wants someone incapable of functioning on their own), if men continue on the present trend to not get educations, not go after careers themselves that would allow them to actually provide, in future generations, none of us chix will have any choice but to do it all ourselves. Not meaning to diss all men, but there is a certain sub population that disses successful women yet CHOSE not to succeed themselves. They say they want the stay at home wifie, kiddies etc. Well, being a ski/snowboard bum, starving musician type, seasonal raft guide ain’t gonna get you there.
I’ve also heard several times how selfish I was for not having children. Less so since I started to respond ‘I’m sorry to hear your children are such a burden to you”. Another one is ‘You’re not really a woman until you have children.” Answer: “I’m sorry to hear you’re unclear/ confused about your gender identity.”Btw, talking about selfishness, in our so over populated world childnessness is ulimate altruism.
Ok, I am totally stealing these answers! They are fantastic, Mephista.
I love those answers too! I was blatantly asked why I “don’t have babies” two nights ago. Like it was just something that SHOULD’VE happened already.
I’m only 29, but apparently that’s too old to have not popped out a couple of rugrats by now!!!
@mephista – those are good! We should start a list – because what you did is take the ‘should’ implicit in the weird insult / question / judgment and expose it. We need to do that for all the standard ones out there so we can see the patterns in them, and the patterns in how these things make us feel.
Wow! Like having children you do not want is an unselfish act?! I used to get this too: I’d say “you mean there’s a human shortage on the planet”? One US child consumes the same amount of stuff by 18 as does 420 Kenyan kids. The planet cannot afford us (Americans) anymore.
Funny, long ago, in my 20’s, my dad asked me why I wouldn’t “give” him grandkids; I told him “my only experiences of family life was incredible tension, arguments that started on the slightest whim, yelling, and basically being dragged into issues with your shi$$y marriage, why in hell would I choose to put myself through that again “? Silence. Never mentioned that again. Weird though, because I chose not to do the family thing, do a lot of manual labor, am outside a lot, can use tools, he always thought I was a Lesbian even during my marriage!
Mephista laughing so much tahnk you…
…and now noquay – thank you.
I think so, peanut. It’s about knowing who you are, and knowing your limitations for now. And you sound like you are in a really good place.
I was just dealing with this situation yesterday and it’s been on my mind today with a situation with an old “friend/acquaintance” and I think I did both good and not so. How to stand up to someone who is not your friend and does not mean well, or someone who publicly does something intended to send a message of put down…Today I stood up- in an email- a result of a situation as described above- and I called him a DB. I have never done that. I still feel good about it. Even if it’s not the best thing to do- IT FELT good and I have no regrets.
A couple years ago I finally understood my attraction to unavailables and the role I played in those relationships. I did a lot of healing, but bottom line…there’s an aspect of me that is still unavailable, probably always will be and that’s ok. Since my epiphany, I’ve taken up with a fellow somewhat unavailable, and that’s ok, too…like attracts like. It has been a challenge in this dynamic to sort out what is my crap and what’s his, but thankfully, he’s available enough that he let me take my sweet time figuring it all out. I dealt with my crap, called him on his…and he stuck around, he even communicated with me (very little, but sometimes a little goes a long way). He’s the first person in my LIFE who made me feel insecure and then actually stuck around until he didn’t make me feel insecure anymore. Lemme tell you…coming from an abusive household (a father who physically, emotionally and psychologically abused me and a mother who’s preferred mode of communication was the silent treatment) and meeting someone who triggered some of those childhood issues stick around until those triggers subsided: a gift from the heavens. I never thought I’d be a healthy, well-adjusted woman, but I am. From herein forward, I’ll be leaving my high value prints all over this Earth!
somewhat EU
Good for you! That is a gift, when a man sticks around long enough for the healing to happen! I’m in need of that too and hope to find it and have somewhat in the past with some men, but only to a degree. They say you heal in relationship, not out of it, and that makes sense to me. We were damaged in relationship, therefore, we need to heal in relationship with another, as well as with ourselves, but I think the big stuff can only happen in relationship, because we need to learn to trust. It was our trust that was broken by others, and need to be repaired through others.
@Somewhat EU and @whatever – I’m a bit confused by your statements so I wanted to reply and try to clarify what you are saying. The way I read your post is that you are glad that you found a guy that was available enough to stay with you even though you are EU. Am I correct in my understanding? If I am, then why do you feel like this is a good thing? Based on what I have read, this guy should have let you go and figure your issues out and not stuck around for crumbs. The way I take what you are saying is that this guy is great because he took so little and stuck with you while you worked through your problems and that’s a good thing! Isn’t this a case of him not having boundaries or knowing what he wants?
I was in a similar situation, where the EUW I was involved with was giving crumbs and had red flags (which sounds to me like you in your scenario), which violated my “boundaries”. Given this, I chose to break it off while she worked on her, admitted issues. I even told her to contact me if she was ready for a committed mutual relationship. She has a lot of baggage to reclaim and she understands that. She stated so on our last conversation when I told her I wasn’t getting what I needed out of the relationship. The advice I received on this site was to give her a wide berth. So, had I stayed with her and accepted what little she could offer, would that have made me a “gift from the heavens”? Letting her go to work on herself was extremely hard for me and still is at is was only a few weeks ago. VERY HARD! I cared for her and had a lot of empathy for her circumstances, but I didn’t want to settle on the hopes that she would “turn the corner” and want me like I wanted her.
@whatever – your statements read as though you believe that sticking with the person and helping them heal is the way to go. That seems counter to the idea that you can’t heal someone, they have to heal themselves.
Am I missing the message here? It just doesn’t seem to fit with all NML and others describe. It also makes me question my decision to step away from the situation and let her deal with her own issues in her own time. Had I stayed, busting my boundaries, would I have gained the trust with her and possibly reaped the rewards in the future??
confused guy
Ok, I’m guessing you are a guy from your handle. Yes, there is a school of thought that says you can really only heal in relationship and as long as the person is willing you could stick around, nobody is perfect and we all have issues to heal, so if she is committed and loves you and you love her, I would stick around, depending on what the situations is, which I don’t know. What happens with many men I have come across who are EU, they are NOT interested in healing because they don’t think anything is wrong with them. This is not a person you stick around for. Hope this makes sense.
Yes, I’m a man, which puts me in a great minority on this blog. 🙂 I hear what you are saying and I guess it is situation specific, as all matters of the heart are. We weren’t together long enough to reach the “L-word”, but I believe we cared for each other. At least, I know I did. The short story is that she had red flags and stated she wasn’t sure she could handle the role of girlfriend for fear of failing, so it didn’t reach priority status against other roles she is filling(mom, daughter, professional, sister, etc.). She admitted she had walls up (aka EU) due to many bad circumstances over the past year and half.
My fear of sticking around to “wait it out” is that you continue to accept crumbs, which is a potential time bomb waiting to blow your heart out of your chest. It’s a game of chance, right? How do you know if someone is truly interested in healing?
Again, not sure I understand the advice in the context of all the other things I have read, and come to believe, from this site.
@Confused Guy,
I think you made the right choice. I am also a mom, daughter, sister, aunt, cousin, professional, friend, sports team member, reader, registered voter, cable subscriber… See where this is going? I could list 100 other ‘things’ but so what. I was the one committed to the relationship and he wasn’t. Geez, he’s not even a cable subscriber.
confused guy
you know someone is healing if they are doing the work, self correcting, seeing a therapist, doing personal development work etc.
It comes out in conversation. Ask her what she’s doing to correct her situation to become the kind of girlfriend she would like to be, know what I mean?
You have to ask the questions and if she doesn’t answer, or isn’t interested in trying to answer, or feels very uncomfortable with the topic, then she’s probably too closed off and not doing anything intentionally to change. Also, find out what she meant by red flags with you.
Good luck, let me know how it goes.
@whatever – I believe she is working on it, at least she says she is. Seeing a therapist, journaling, etc. Only she really knows. The damage is done as I said we needed to break while she heals. Maybe I will get lucky and she comes back with a different perspective and we have another go. I would definately give her another chance. It didn’t end in some sort of horrible flames. As for red flags, I saw them with her she never used that term about me. Texting as primary communication mode, too busy, talking of exes, etc etc. My statement must have been confusing.
confused guy
how long were you together?
We were only together around 3 months. We didn’t see each other that often, maybe 10 times (she’s too busy). When we were together it was great and we texted daily.
that’s just the first stage of dating, maybe it is best to let and go and reconnect later if the opportunity comes back. good luck!
Noquay,
I tired to respond under you comment but it wouldn’t let me. I think your hair sounds absolutely fabulous. It’s absurd that people tell you its inappropriate for your age. I mean, who gets to decide that? Why them? I admire women who find their own style and expression. It takes guts to do your own thing instead of trying to fit into imposed social norms or the Glamour Magazine type guidelines that are set for women. I too have been criticized for not being ‘the norm’ and have been told I am a free spirit and independent. While it was meant as cautionary comment to me, I was elated to hear it! Today I’m going on a coffee date in a camouflage sundress I made. It’s nothing you would find in a store but it’s very pretty. I get questioning comments on it, (why camo? Because I like it) but who cares. I have long hair also but with grey in the temples and some coming in on top. I have women and even some men tell me I should color it. I say no way. I wear it proudly. With all the pressure we have to be a certain way, it’s hard to find your own style and be comfortable. When you do let go of the constraints, it’s very freeing to be just who you are and celebrate it. If some men find this intimidating, then they are the ones with fragile egos who would be a pain in the ass to placate all the time. Why bother with those types anyway? They don’t value your authenticity, which is a set up for more shit later on.
I’m headed out on a coffee date this morning. I am showing up ready to smile and have fun. I will not hide myself or try to act the part that seems correct, but instead just be myself and relax. I have the mindset that I am good just the way I am. I may make a great new friend….or not. Right? Regarding this post, I think in the past I’ve either hinted when I was uncomfortable or hit them over the head with the ugly facts like a baseball bat. I strive to find middle ground, which to me involves saying my truth but with grace and assurance instead of from a place of boiling emotions. I am an emotional sensitive creature by nature, so this is a challenge for me but when I do achieve it on occasions, I feel grand with myself. Wish me luck 😉
good luck Selkie 🙂
Go Selkie! The object of the exercise is to have a good time. That’s all a date is.
I need some advice on this topic. I left my marriage after many years of emotional abuse and poor communication and after trying to deal (unsuccessfully) with a lot of passive aggressive behaviour. I tried many things to improve communication and engagement and stay in the marriage but it was hopeless. One person can’t do it alone.
I am almost a year separated now and living in a new city with new friends, work and activities (yay for me!) but it saddens me that I am seeing more and more how the dynamics of my relationship with my ex have shaped certain dynamics in my family and with my now grown-up children. Basically I was expected to be strong, overfunction and shut up and my ex played the victim.
My son is a lot like his father (no surprise) and he is sometimes unkind, dismissive or thoughtless to me. It hurts me. I want to be more authentic but talking to him about a couple of recent incidents scares me a lot! He can go ballistic on me just like his “mild-mannered father” used to do. I am afraid but need to talk more honestly to him. I feel already hopeless about my ability to handle this – it didn’t work with my ex. A friend who is a therapist tells me that I can’t ever discuss anything meaningful with my son and must just talk about “work, activities and sports” if I want a relationship with him. But what about dealing with hurtful behaviour? Is part of being authentic accepting that a relationship is at risk of being totally lost if you bring things up that are important? It bothers me that I am so scared – but the stakes are so much higher.
Espresso
You said “Basically I was expected to be strong, overfunction and shut up and my ex played the victim.”
YOU placed unrealistic expectations on YOURSELF and when you didn’t get the response you expected, blamed others and played the victim. You’re still blaming others when you aren’t rewarded for your expectations. When we point a finger at others we fail to see the three pointing back at us.
You say your style of communication didn’t work with your husband but you’re communicating in the same way with your son and hope things will be different?
You wrote in an earlier post your about disappointment at your son’s reaction towards receiving gifts. You’re under the assumption that everyone feels the same way about giving/receiving gifts as you. Same thing here. You’re expecting him to react in a way that makes you comfortable.
Take the good advice of your therapist friend. Step back and take baby steps with him. Maybe you think if you can control your son’s behaviour then all the effort in your marriage won’t have been in vain? You’re clearly aggravating him. You can’t force him to discuss things he doesn’t want to.
I believe part of being authentic means respecting other peoples boundaries as well as enforcing our own. No one can break our boundaries unless we allow them to. They are here to protect us and allow us to realistically reflect on OUR PART in a situation.
If you continue you are at risk of losing your son and possibly your other children. Do you want them to be writing to BR complaining of their overbearing mother who plays the victim when they don’t react how she wants them to?
Be kind to yourself by not creating unnecessary drama. Reflect on your amazing achievement of getting separated. Give yourself time to heal.
All the best.
You might find books by Lundy Bancroft very, very helpful. He has one book called “When Dad Hurts Mom” which explains the dynamic you are talking about – abusive behavior passed from father to son. I would check it out.
@espresso; i got blocked for some reason and it was when i was responding to you. so that made me rethink. Ok, your post triggered me because it is my dynamic with my mum. So i am responding to you as a daughter that has a parent that sends her into rages and has for years but that didn’t for years change whatever does the triggering and instead thinks i’m crazy for going in to rages.
Now, some of my raging seems nonsensical on the surface but its not. There were always reasons some deep some minor, and the fact that I was enraged over something normal never made my mum think that maybe whatever she did/said was problematic to me, that she should respect me and therefore not do it. There was plenty else she did problematic but here I am thinking of two everyday things she did that enraged me every time. It was similar to say someone asking you how you like your tea; lets say you ask someone and they go into a rage. And you ask again. Same thing. And again and again. Now, the tea asking – is it that important to you? Because nobody likes to be in a rage and lose control. So you are knowingly triggering someone’s rages. Your son is suffering when he rages (he might also be an arse) but something about your tone tells me he is suffering.
You think your ex is scum. You think your son is like your ex (no surprise! you say – meaning that you dont think you raised your son, or are responsible for anything about your relationship with him). you want to tell him home truths since they are authentic, and work, sports, whatever is not authentic and you prefer to lose your relationship with your child rather than just forgive him whatever wrong (you believe) he has done to you and move on.
Are you perhaps trying to get closure on your relationship with your husband through your son? After all he is like his father.
AND by ignoring your sons wishes – whether he’s an arse that controls with anger or a depression sufferer with rages triggered by you, he has made it clear he doesnt want those conversations. By continuing on, you are being passive aggressive. But darling, i want the best for you! Why can’t we talk about this? Why must you scream at me for this? Everytime I bring it up you go ballistic! Like your father! I only want whats best for you. Are we to have no relationship at all?
Yeah. Dont tell him.
Why, Noquay, Michelle, Ethelreda,
Thank you all for the responses! & I am an artist! (I feel I am married to the arts and all that I create are my little babies.)
Also, 13 yrs ago I happened on the best friend imaginable — my dog!! I also do love hanging out with my grandparent for social time. I feel like they really really get it in terms of what matters in life.
For me the last few weeks have been very revealing as I could not for the world figure out why I was still feeling so strongly (different things at different times. Hate, love,sadness) about a man I thought I knew 3 years ago when he moved on, not contacted me once, fell in love and married HER.
Then it occurred to be …It the humiliation I still feel at the way he treated. I loved him. He didn’t. No closure either. It was like one day I stopped to exit. That hurt when he moved on so easily. Not one call, not one glace back. No way for me to tell him to go to hell and how much he hurt me, my trustwhich I think would have helped me get ‘Closure’.
It also the way he treated me. Disrespectfully and without any lack of love, care or respect. I know in many way it was me being naive, lack of knowledge of boundaries and red flags but I still feel guilty for allowing his behavior.How do I forgive him and move on when I can’t forgive myself?
Confused,
You don’t have to forgive him, you only have to ACCEPT the facts of what happened. I have not been able to do this yet either. In the end, I DID clearly state my wants, followed up by the actual sent letter. It didn’t make a difference to him, but I never had to regret not saying exactly what I meant. Of course there is a harmful impact when someone you love reveals that he doesn’t value, care about, or respect you. Even if you can’t say what you want to him, because it WILL NOT BENEFIT OR HELP YOU, you can declare it for yourself. And what you want can never be him.
Thanks Say Something. I will ACCEPT that it happened and I long recognized the “he’s just not that special’ aspect. The thing I struggle with is the ‘forgiving myself’. I hate myself for being involved with him and going through the hurt and the lack of love, care and respect. How do I forgive myself? I do I forget. would Love your thoughts. Hugs..<3
Confused123,
I think you are grieving for what wasn’t hence the myriad of emotions holding you back or rather keeping you static 3 years on.
Yes you hate yourself so now you can love yourself and while in this process the self forgiveness will slowly filter through. Only you know what outlet/healing methods (journalling, unsent no-holds-barred letters, therapy, poetry, new focus are some ways that are working well for me) you are needing to find and take action on so please do not abandon yourself (thoughts of hatred, humiliation and guilt are examples of this). Instead make this time very special for yourself in your search to finding the you that once loved, cared, trusted, and respected (douchebag) because that same person is still there.
For starters (Nat has many articles on the following) turn your naivety into awareness, increase boundary knowledge and put them in place to include paying attention more to red flags and act on them. This will help give you strength to not be done over again by people (ex) who are so clueless to the meaning of real and sincere value.
Warm Smiles.
Hi Confused,
You can’t forget. I can’t forget. And I think part of acceptance is not beating yourself up in the “post-aftermath”. I haven’t figured out this part yet, as I am still reeling from being cut-off and discarded like a great story that just happened to be written in the wrong font. And I know there is a difference between pain and prolonged suffering, but I haven’t figured out how to disconnect from that suffering either. Pain has to be replaced with joy. I am so clear on what I want that like Suki said, I worry that it doesn’t exist. I stress that I am not trying hard enough to find balance and happiness, because my belief system does not include being forever happy living solo. I learned from wandering around this weekend, if it makes me upset, I need to stop doing it. Thinking about being tossed away feels devastating. I should stop doing it.
Hi Confused… I can relate. It’s hard to be left asking these questions. I myself struggled with, “How did I not see this sooner?” “What was I thinking?” “Why did I make excuses for him and ignore what seems so obvious to me now? Jeez, am I stupid or something?” I think a lot of us are grateful to find Baggage Reclaim but then, armed with our new knowledge and understanding, turn on ourselves! Yikes! I guess it’s just part of the process. I went through this too.
When these questions come up, I try to answer them with responses like, “You saw it when you saw it and then you did something about it. Who could ask you do more than that?” “You wanted love and a relationship; what’s wrong with that? You’re human.” “You tried and it didn’t work out; you can take these lessons and apply them, avoid the heartache sooner in the future, like a vaccine – I took in a bit of the bad so I’ll recognize it/obliterate it in the future. That makes you SMART (not stupid)!”
I think I struggled with forgiving myself because I looked back and expected an earlier version of myself to be all-knowing and somehow, predict what would happen. How could I know that? I know it NOW, but how could I have known then? I didn’t. And I couldn’t. So why would I judge myself for not being clairvoyant? Once I break it down, the way I am judging myself… I see how ridiculous I am being.
I hope this is helpful – I encourage you to dig into what you’re really telling yourself when you find that you’re judging yourself really hard or refusing to forgive yourself like it’s some sort of punishment you “deserve” because “you fucked up.” If anything, you deserve your own compassion and understanding. In my experience, when I forgave and was kind to *myself* first (which took awhile), I had no problem forgiving him.
Michelle/Say Something/Gina:
Thank you all for your reply. It is very helpful and in some ways soothes my soul. As Nat says I think I need to find my own closure as I will never get from him.
I am slowly learning to trust myself, take care of myself and I know eventually it will lead to my giving forgiveness to myself. Hugs to you all ladies. Stay strong.
Confused
Am in much the same boat and get to see/work with the happy couple starting next Friday. Don’t blame yourself, someone gave you the impression he cared about you and didn’t. That’s his dishonesty not yours. Decent folk like yourself simply wouldn’t recognize red flag behaviours for what they are simply because it would never occur to you to act that way. Moving on is harder for the decent person because we don’t discard folk like last weeks trash, we look at our role in the situation, take time to reflect and grieve and don’t get out there until we’ve dealt with it. Confused, feel lucky you never need see him/her again. Having to see them, deal with them is very, very, hard. You, the honest person gets to see the dishonest get away with it once again while you are still alone. You dont want this. Its ugly. There never is closure, never apology, and even if you could tell him off, you’d be completely disregarded, these folk are incapable of empathy, of owning their s@#$.
This was a great article for me to read at a difficult time and reaffirms to me that I need to be unapologetic in asserting my desires for my life; something I find extremely hard.
I wonder if anyone can offer any advice please. I am heavily pregnant with our first child. My partner and I had only been together 6 months when
we found out we were expecting but already knew this was where we were heading, albeit not so soon. Very sadly, my partner lost his brother in an accident shortly after we met. My partner had just moved back with his family at nearly 30 to save money for a mortgage when it happened and
was relied upon to do almost everything regarding the funeral and keeping the family fed. He has since been told he is not grieving as hard as the rest of them and has spent his whole life being told he is the cause of family problems, whilst having to take on a lot of adult responsibilities at a young age whilst his parents partied.
I tried to give the family space when I visited but also to help out where I could, cook meals, invite them out
with my partner and I to get them out of the house, and generally be pleasant. My partner was finding it very hard living there with his mum infantilising him and giving him no privacy but refusing to listen when he asked her not to do those things. His dad came close to leaving his mum and my partner convinced him to stay. His mum doesn’t know this.
I ended up living with them, paying rent, for ten weeks whilst we waited to move into our new house. We could only afford to live right round the corner from them which meant moving an hour and a half from my family. His mum started to ignore me and pretend I wasn’t in the room, completely ignored the fact I was pregnant, cooked family meals without including me, talked over me whenever my partner tried to ask me my opinions on things for our house by giving her opinions, dismissed my very real chronic medical condition because she personally hadn’t had it, told me horrible things about my partner behind his back… Honestly I could give pages and pages of examples. I ended up depressed and desperate to move out.
Once we had moved she suddenly
wanted to know everything my partner
was doing, and started sending him frequent random messages, often ringing him saying “I’m going to come up” and then wandering around our house as if she owned the place. His family came to see the house every time we went to look and even the day we got the keys they went before us “to open windows and air it out” as we were at work, then came along that evening when we went to look at our house for the first time, completely sidelining me and just telling my partner everything about our house, as they had already been that day. My partner and I had a huge argument as I felt that should have been our time to enjoy a special moment, and that we had yet again, been bulldozed, and I had been ignored.
As I say, there are so so many things I could list, but recently his mum said she wasn’t excited about the baby because it doesn’t seem real, his dad got drunk and said I was “just the vessel for the baby” and for about the fifth time told us it had to be a boy. Both parents are openly racist, misogynistic, homophobic, you name it. My partner and I are sick to death of them turning up unannounced, turning up with 5 minutes notice, treating me like sh*t and him like a child and just having no respect for anyone. However, if confronted, they have in the past threatened to kick my partner and I out (when we lived with them), given lots of verbal abuse and have had rifts for 20 years with various immediate family. They are clearly grieving the loss of their son, which is tragic and happened 15 months ago, and I appreciate that his mum now wants to hold my partner tight. He has another brother at home who like his mum, doesn’t work and does very little, and he is very much babied.
My partner is frightened to cause a big row by telling them we need space, but has promised to do so when we have the baby as it is a good reason to ask for space. My fear has always been that having ignored me and made my pregnancy absolute hell, I would then have his mum turning up constantly expecting me to hang out with her so she can see the baby, and if past form is anything to go by, tell me everything I should be doing and want to take over. My partner read up on narcissism and we are both convinced she is a classic case, based on his entire life and her relationships with others. Sure enough, the day I started my maternity leave she has decided the baby IS real and she wants to see me. And the next day. Both days my partner said I was under the weather and eventually said that I have been working long days and now I just want some time alone to relax and nest before the baby comes, to which she replied “OK.”
I was so pleased to establish that little bit of a boundary, but I want it to be ongoing. I don’t have anything in common with his family, they have vocal abhorrent views, treat us both with little respect and I would rather not see them too much, and certainly not on my own. It is possible his mum has realised the error of her ways, which would be nice, but I still don’t think it’s unreasonable to see them say every three weeks when we have a newborn. We have lots of other family and friends and we need to bond with the baby! We anticipate this causing a row. My main concern is that having been very depressed and negative, his mum will tell everyone that the baby is helping her get over her grief and that by not hanging out with her in the week, and asking for space to have some weekends where we don’t see them, I am hampering her progress by denying her unlimited access to her grandchild. I don’t want to be mean and I want her to get better, but I don’t want to feel that I have to sacrifice my own happiness in order to make her happy when all this time she has made my life hell I have bitten my tongue so as not to cause a row! I’m not talking about cutting contact (although I wouldn’t feel happy leaving the baby with them alone and neither would my partner), they will still see the baby more than my parents due to proximity!
If anyone has any thoughts I would be so grateful.
BunInOven, wow.
One word: BOUNDARIES.
I can tell you already know that firm boundaries are necessary. And it is good that your partner seems aware that there is a boundary issue. But his mother’s tentacles are deeply implanted, and he is still her puppet, dancing to her puppet-string pulling. Only HE can change that. There may be some hope, in that he sees his Mom is a narcissist. He has to accept that narcissists don’t change and cannot be reasoned with.
Moving around the corner…..???…..what???!…that is a totally codependent act on HIS part. It will only cause more boundary issues.
You have a good head on your shoulders. Your reasoning is good. And you’re in a tough situation.
The mother totally stole your housewarming moments. There is only one FIRST time in a new house for a couple, and she refused to let you two have it.
Not sure, but are you saying his parents have keys to your home? First thing I would do is get an additional lock installed on your doors, one to which she does not have the key. No more impromptu visits to YOUR home. I did that when I lived in an apartment. I had two locks, but only gave management the key to one lock, because I wanted notice that management was going to be in my unit. And yeah, a couple of times management could not get in, they left a note, and I scheduled their time and left that extra lock undone.
But in order for boundaries to work, you and your partner have to agree to what they are to be. And right now, your partner is still dancing to Mom’s music. For example, if you get a second lock, he is likely to cave and give a key to Mom. If he wasn’t dancing to her music, he would have moved farther away. If he was able to stand up for what HE wants, he wouldn’t be using the “wait for the baby to come and then I’ll state my case” excuse.
Don’t go along to get along. You’ll have to learn the art of saying NO without it turning into a big fight. And he has to recognize his own codependency AND want to end it. And he has to see that his codependency will wreck your union.
It’s possible that your union can survive. But only if you two are on the same page, and right now, you two are not. Your partner has to step up. He needed to be on your side about the housewarming day and he needed to correct his Dad disrespecting you and he needs to tell them to go back home when they come over unannounced and he needs to say “NO, because we don’t want to” to those impromptu visit requests. But the fact that he did not do any of those things is not a good sign for a long happy union.
Oh MAN. I’d be looking at fleeing the country, to be honest.
I had a partner with an invasive and over-controlling family – my last partner; the EUM that brought me to BR in the first place – and they did all of this kind of thing to him.
He was spineless and refused to put boundaries in place. Your partner needs to be absolutely 1000% with you on this one, because he is the weakest link.
I think you need distance from these people, and I mean real physical distance, or this woman is going to ruin your life and your child’s life as well. I foresee a battle to get their son AND the baby off you, and leave you out in the cold, when they’re ready. You are just the vessel, Bun In Oven – the dad has TOLD YOU THAT, so please LISTEN TO WHAT HE HAS SAID. When people tell you who they are, you must listen to them!
They need to leave you the fuck alone, and you are going to have to fight them every inch of the way on this. You need to grow a massive spine very fast, and your partner needs to grow one as well. This is going to be ugly, and you are also going to need a very thick skin.
Ask yourself: do you want a future with this man and his family, or not? If he is the weakest link and is going to cave in every time Mamma comes over or makes demands, you need to take your child and leave him, because otherwise you will be chaining yourself to a miserable existence for the rest of your life.
You need also to look at your legal status – are you defacto or married? Just what legal rights can you maintain over your child to keep this woman away from him/her?
Document everything. Document every invasion of privacy that she carries out. Document every insult, every crazy phone call. Because one day if this all has to go to court, this woman will be banned from accessing her grandchild forever, if you play your cards right.
I can’t see this ending well, unless you and your partner man up, BIG TIME. Which is hard to do at 6 months pregnant, but you may have to turn into a Tiger Mummy to defend your baby.
bun in oven
Your partner is so lucky to have you! I feel for him and his family because his mom is similar to mine. I think it’s great that you are a team this way. The mom will drive you nuts for many years to come. Would it be possible for your husband to find a great job in another country? another city? This would give you the space you need, but even then, when she visits you it will be weeks of hell too. You married into the family, hopefully your family is better than this, it sounds like they are, otherwise you would know how to handle this woman, but even then, you would just be fighting all the time. One thing is for sure, you will need to practice your assertiveness skills a lot, while she is alive, that’s what you signed up for. Good luck to you!
also, I really hope you have a girl, they may be less possessive, especially if it comes to a courtroom battle, but probably not. Your partner will not be able to step up for you every time,so plan to do it for yourself too. These type of parents are hard to handle, and with a resent death, double that. If they are narcs they cannot take ownership of their wrong doings, they simply think they are right…always. If you have a fighting spirit, use it, that’s all they respect, but it’s a damn nuisance, I know, I have parents like this and have had to fight it out with them every inch of the way. But, it does make you learn how to stand up for yourself.
@Bun, I disagree, I think narcs respond to one other thing, especially family narcs where you can’t so easily get away. They respond to humor, pandering, politeness, and facade. My gas lighter ex was for some reason dipping into my life for a while, and I would respond to emails with ‘thanks I appreciate your email’ even though I hated it. I didn’t want to open any doors, and we no longer had the intimate relationship where I needed to tell him anything real about my life.
Boundaries doesnt mean group emails and FB posts about your ‘rules’ – if they are so controlling then you need the facade of compliance while doing exactly as you please. So if you can’t make it home in time to see the hundredth aunty visit, just say ‘oh Aunty X, we love her so much, oh dear dear, when is she coming next, put her on the phone, bad Aunty X you didn’t tell us, we love having you over, what a shame’. Done. Easier than the FB post. Less of a battle of wills. End result is the same – you didn’t see Aunty X.
I once had to leave a party early, they were close friends of my family, and it was the sort of overbearing family you speak of; and I was all sugar and niceness and I did not budge as they started to badger me to stay (control with love, I hate that!). I was like “No thanks! I dont want dinner served early (we were still an hour or two from dinner!)…no drinks thanks! I love your house, what a great house, my family loves hanging out with you so much, they told me to come over since we’re all family here, how lovely, what a great decor, and now I must go…” She was so flattered and totally exhausted with MY overbearingness that it was easy.
Since you’re having a kid, and say you love this guy, you need not only boundaries but your sanity and good humor.
You might think the family is awful, and that won’t help much either – narcs dont want to be hated, so the control might also be a way to get you to toe the line. All I’m saying is; you need boundaries while managing to not be resentful and also to not become enmeshed in the drama. There are bits of what I hear from you which make me think that there is a dynamic here that you are also a part of; e.g. writing the email of rules to family and friends about visiting.
Short version; boundaries means being authentic while remaining sane, non-resentful, and in control. People dont need to know the reasons for your boundaries.
That IS what boundaries are. Boundaries is not saying no to visits, then seething over it, and then asking the same people for help the next day. That is not boundaries.
[one other thing might be; do you have enough boundaries with the bf? Why are you taking on his family problems? say no, leave him to deal with it. I hope you’re not having long talks with him about how racist etc his family is, etc etc. Dont turn him against his family. TBH you have a hard battle which is why you NEED humor and kindness to everyone in this story. You can only change yourself]
Suki
Although I understand your ‘unauthentic’ approach to narc families, I saw this approach used growing up and I hated it because it was so phoney, narcs use this with each other. I could barely use it myself and when I do, I feel slimey with all the ficken lies! Unfortunate as it is, this does seem to work with them, but it really doesn’t work for a truth teller like me.
I used this today with my boss. He’s clearly trying his best seduction play at keeping me there, turning on the charm, telling me he’s expanding the department I’m in…Me – Oh, thank you for the offer, I have other obligations. Can’t run fast enough, but not making it obvious. Two more days!!
Thanks for the advice- it’s good to feel I’m not being completely crazy. I just don’t buy this suddenly wanting to include me. She is up to something. She may have had an epiphany and realised she needs to make amends, but even if she apologises for the way she has behaved; I feel she has shown her true colours. Besides which, I just don’t think it’s unusual or unreasonable to not want to spend time alone with her or see her once or twice a week when we have nothing in common and I really don’t enjoy her company. All she does is moan about something or talk about how she doesn’t like various of her husband’s family. All the women in his family, all of whom he is estranged from. Believe me it rings alarm bells. My partner has come to realise this too having just believed from his parents that they are all horrible women. Even his own half-sister! I feel certain there is more to it than meets the eye.
I think I didn’t give my partner enough credit in my original post- not intentionally! We love each other to bits and he is absolutely the person I want to share my life with and feels the same about me. He has had a really hard time losing his brother, trying to keep his family from falling apart and managing to buy and renovate a house for us to live in when we found out we were having a baby. All with me trying not to sink into complete despair over his family, his mum in particular, and him juggling trying to keep everyone relatively happy. He has had it really tough and we are on the same page that he will assert our need for a bit of a baby-visiting-calendar and people can’t just turn up, and that we will move further away next year when the house
will make us some money! I have been very clear in the past that I’m not happy that the boundaries have kept shifting and would be forced to leave if driven to it- he has promised to stand up to them in the past, namely when we moved, but always had reasons not to. To be fair, these are legitimate reasons like his dad helping us work on the house for two weeks and letting us borrow tools, so my partner doesn’t want to say we need space because it would be thrown back in our faces how much they have done for us, and he suspects they would lay all the “blame” at my door, accusing me of taking him away from his family if we said “please give us some/more notice if you want to pop up, don’t ask us every week because we need time alone, please respect us both as adults with our own lives.” However, as a somewhat outsider I think that is difficult to say those things but just plain unreasonable behaviour from his family! We are very grateful for help given on the house and thanked them with a gift, but my partner has also done a lot for them over the years and particularly recently. Besides which, it feels as though because they have done things for us we are then indebted to them and that debt is that we have few boundaries; it just doesn’t seem a reasonable trade-off. When we lived with them his mum went in our room every day whilst we were at work (opening our window just a bit wider than we had opened it for example, as justification) and his brother was allowed to go into our room and take things of my partner’s without asking, including things like just taking tobacco and smoking it. The comeback was “well you live under our roof and so does he so he can do that.”
My partner recently spoke to his grandma
and didn’t go into too much detail but said a few things and that we felt we didn’t even want to see them right now. She immediately said his mum was jealous of me and that we have her full support- apparently his mum complained to her once that she doesn’t see him (once a bl**dy week at LEAST he sees her) and his grandma said she had to give us time alone. He used to live hours away and his parents hardly saw him or phoned him for years, even when he really needed their support, that’s what grates so much now!
We aren’t married but I don’t see it ending in a court battle (I hope). If it came to it and I was going to leave him he would do whatever it took, I believe that deep down. I just don’t want to be dishing out ultimatums when he is already under so much stress. He wants to take the approach of telling the extended family in a joint message that they need to arrange with us when they can come and see the baby, and include his parents in that message. If they take umbrage we know that the rest of the family has seen what we said so they can’t stir up too much trouble, and we can say the rules apply to everyone and they aren’t being treated unfairly! It also hopefully means that people will contact us individually rather than the current situation where everything goes via his mum and we get phonecalls saying “auntie so-and-so is here and we’re going to come up.” This happened on Saturday and we were with my family, miles away. His mum seemed shocked he hadn’t mentioned we were going away for the day and said “but you knew auntie was going to be coming over.” Yes, and no-one asked if we were going to be in or suggested seeing us, you just presumed we would be in and could all come up with no notice! She then said she wanted to see us/him and when were we getting back, to which my partner curtly replied “late.” She then said “but I’ve got you something, can I come up?” Unfortunately we needed help with something at home that I just couldn’t do due to pregnancy so we went round quite late when we got back so we could ask for help, and therein lies part of the problem. I wish we could just ask a neighbour as we say we are going to ignore them then ending up needing something! That’s his call not mine though. I also think it’s odd that if anyone visits his mum and dad they then all come to see us- I don’t get why his mum has to also come every time and it can’t be that his grandparents ring us themselves and come alone after seeing his parents, but maybe that’s just me.
Sorry, I’m rambling! I just need us to be able to hold it together as a couple until we can move further away but that could be a year and I don’t want a fall-out when we should be enjoying a newborn but nor do I want to be bulldozed when we have a newborn!
Bun, these are long stories and I’ll be short. I believe everything you wrote. I also believe that your partner is a great guy and that you love each other very much. The problem is that unless HE steps up with NO excuses, legitimate or not, your relationship will seriously struggle to survive. I’m sorry to say but having in mind that you moved a few minutes away from his parents isn’t a good sign at all. And you feeling responsible for his mother’s feelings (continuously depressed is just her way of manipulatíon – she’s been impossible her whole life) doesn’t bode well for the future either. I apologise for writing this, you know, it’s just my opinion.
BunInOven, it is not a “gift” if it comes with strings attached. Meaning his parents are keeping a running tally of what they do for you guys, and they feel you “owe” them because of what they do for you guys. And you are buying into that manipulation. You do see that it is manipulation, right?
Guess what. You DON’T owe them. And the fastest way to break them out of the habit is to stop allowing the manipulation. Meaning – don’t reciprocate. They will tire of doing things “for” you if they see that you have absolutely NO COMPUNCTION about receiving their “gifts” and not reciprocating.
Most folks would say stop accepting their help. But that’s not going to break them out of trying to manipulate you. What WILL break their habit is for you to accept what they give, but NEVER be blackmailed by it. Yes, I know you babysat last week, but, NO, you can’t come over now because we have our own plans. Yes, I know you lent me tools to help me on my house, but, NO, we can’t come by tonight. It will totally throw those parents for a loop, they will call you all kinds of selfish, and you and your partner will have to stand together, and let them know that maybe it’s best that they stop giving if they can’t deal with things as they are. You don’t OWE them.
You can’t change others behavior. You can only change your own. But it is amazing how, when we change our own behavior, the people who give us the most grief start changing their behavior.
Oh, and this using emotional loss as the reason to allow boundary busting is BS-movie-of-the-week nonsense in my point of view. I really think people watch too much Lifetime. No amount of letting her have her way is going to bring back the brother…it is not your partner’s job to heal Mom.
where are your partner’s family from? This doesn’t sound like a typical English family.
And what exactly IS an “English family”??
And what does it matter if they are English, American, Armenian, Iranian, Pakistani, Indian, Chinese..etc family.
The fact is that they don’t read boundaries.
The rest is moot.
Buninoven
if you can step back a bit, I think you will see the funny in their behaviors, imagine a sitcom with them in it.
BunInOven,
Attachment still to his parents is the problem and not part of. Enabling behaviour on your part is not helping the situation.
I think you need to take serious action with your partner, not an ultimatum like you say, something that will cause him to take you seriously as he’s not seeing you in this way at all eg. write out the seeing baby schedule yourself now and give it to your partner. This will show him that you are serious about your own family time, and everything is not on him to do. This includes also asking the neighbour yourself next time and not wait for him to jointly do so. Be proactive (this may be happening already) in as much as you able to while pregnant, good empowerment top up for yourself in general.
Boundaries are a no-no to shift and until they are appropriately enforced, part and parcel you will be of dysfunction that I hope you consider thinking twice of marrying into. Baby is already in the mix.
BunInOven,
What gina said. I could not agree more.
This is rampant codependency on his part. I just have to be honest and say that my ex was very unhealthily attached to his mother (I knew I didn’t stand a chance at being a priority in his life.) I noticed something was wrong and I got out fast (best decision of my life.) Now that you are expecting, I do not know. But as is, this is not healthy for you or your child.
I’m 62 and starting to think that true love and living with a partner just may not be on my horizon.
Silly things have come up, like worrying that if I don’t hurry I will no longer be interested in romance or sex. But what I should I do, fall in with someone I don’t care for just because they still have a few drops of sexual hormones left? Ugh.
I’ve been compensating for a lack of dates, love and affection by fixing up my house, going out with friends occasionally and doing basically whatever the hell I want to.
I turned my future love life over to God. I never was that good at picking anyway, so let’s see what God drags in.
Being alone is very convenient in many ways. I think I’ll be fine either way.
Karen..I hear you…I’m 66, in great shape for my age physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually. I recently went NC with my ex husband who started coming around, offering to help me with projects at my home, acting like we’re still married. Enjoyed being with him then he would disappear (even had his ex girlfriend staying at his place “til she could find another place to live”..right.) It’s been 3 weeks. Hard when I still love him but know he’s not on the same page and his presence is too damaging for me.
I am committed to my own happiness and peace of mind after 5 years of dysfunction with him. It takes time to recover and heal. Take all the time you need. I’m not allowing myself to rush into a mediocre relationship (and definitely no sex). I’m furnishing a new apartment in another city where there is a better social life and fun activities. That feels really good. Life goes on. I agree with the adage that “living well is the best revenge.” We owe that to ourselves.
“I’ve been compensating for a lack of dates, love and affection by fixing up my house, going out with friends occasionally and doing basically whatever the hell I want to.”
Dates, you can live without. But love and affection, you can’t live without. And the best way to find it is to give it in funny places, without a plan. Have you got time/energy to volunteer anywhere? Either people or animals – you choose.
“I turned my future love life over to God. I never was that good at picking anyway, so let’s see what God drags in.”
Good call. God moves in mysterious ways, but He’s never let me down, ever, and He is never outdone in generosity.
This post helped me through a recent interaction. I could hear NML’s voice in my head as well as Nicki Minaj, saying “Speak your m**f** mind!”
It took me a couple weeks to finally say, over fbchat (I know), to a male friend that I was uncomfortable in our friendship because I felt that when he was kind/helpful I couldn’t be sure when/if he was trying to get me into bed.
He didn’t react well to that. He got defensive.
At first I felt like NML describes in the link to “Do we need to explain why someone’s behaviour bothered us?” – as in, I shouldn’t have to explain why his behaviour was wrong. But I found myself instead writing out what he did on a specific evening that I interpreted as him hitting on me, and how feeling hit on colored the rest of my experience with him. I felt like I was spelling it out but at the same time, as I wrote, I realized that I could give precise details of an event and say exactly what my read was on them, *understand that my viewpoint was valid* and *not apologize for my own experience* while still allowing that he may have interpreted/meant the same actions differently.
When I was clear about the event, he seemed to realize I wasn’t calling out his entire way of being with me, but that I was concerned about the context for the nice things he does for me. Then he was able to respond by empathizing with my position, expressing that he did not consider himself to have made an advance, and apologizing for making me feel uncomfortable, etc.
It felt like a big risk, because I enjoy our friendship so much, to bring up his actions, but I reminded myself that I don’t need to rely on any relationship that has me feeling like I can’t say what’s on my mind. So I spoke evenly, with the understanding that he had every right to decide I was too sensitive/cold/arrogant or whatever and just get angry and potentially drop me.
I am sincerely touched to find that once I was clear, not just hinting, that my friend had something concrete to respond to, and to try to see from my perspective, and then he did that.
I also realized that I was operating based on assumptions (i.e. “He would never do x if he weren’t thinking y”) but when I explained what I was inferring from his actions (my assumptions), he had solid examples of his doing x with many people and it not being motivated by y.
So. A good lesson. Speak your m**f** mind!
Magnolia, I think your actions caused your friend to “check” himself. The fact that he got defensive says to me that he did have a hidden agenda, and your frankness forced his hand out into the open. His “examples” don’t negate the fact that he is trying to play the booty angle. The former FWB single guy I know has many female friends for whom he does favors, but not one of them would be able to pin him down on doing favors for booty, even though he would FWB any one of them if they gave the OK. I am certain that every female he knows has at some time been in a FWB relationship with him that they thought would turn out to be more but eventually gave up the ghost. He just hangs around waiting for that weak moment when he becomes the “better than nothing” candidate.
I am new to BR and guess what has brought me here… EUM/AC/MM/User and in the end, just a cheater.
This is my 24th day of NC and blocking all means of communication (but my gut feeling is that he wouldn’t use any… not enough decency to apologise), and still struggling whether this is the way to say what he was not capable to understand before. Or should I simply say clearly what I was hinting too often (that never worked).
My last communication was a chat message (yes, very poor way) saying I had seen him “hunting” (24 hours after I hinted I was not OK accepting certain rubbish!) and that would help me to move on finally, wishing him all the best.
But I keep the anger in me and makes my days and nights difficult. I saw him two days ago at work and decided to avoid looking at him or saying hello, even though my “normal” reaction has always been communicating, discussing and letting know my feelings.
This keeps me in an anxious state for the last 3+ weeks, until the point of having to take some pills to sleep and reduce that level of stress.
I’m resolved to make my NC work as it should, and try to emotionally disconnect from him and his actions, but the “speak clearly at once” comes to my mind once and again.
I have seen tons of wisdom in this site, and I am understanding step by step so many mistakes I have made in this situation, boundaries wise, patterns and my own (poor) responses to the unhealthy situation. I am trying to forgive myself, but I believe I’m not there yet. Sort of feeling that I need that moment of catharsis to blow off steam and get the serenity I’ve not been able to find.
Anna, to be honest, I don’t think it’s a good idea to speak your mind when you break up with somebody. I don’t think this is what Nat meant. I bought into an idiotic idea that you have to make your feelings known because men (or women) can’t read minds, and confronted several exes. Bad idea. By all means say that such and such behaviour is so unacceptable that you have to part ways and keep NC. But it’s of no use to say anything else because these guys don’t think normal way. In their minds they did nothing wrong, above all, didn’t promise you anything (time, affection, fidelity). They also don’t care about you (or care only vaguely). So you speaking your mind just sounds like mad woman ranting to them, and it just reinforces the idea that it’s just as well they got rid of this crazy person. I’m sorry I ever expressed my feelings this way even though now I don’t care one iota what my exes might think of me.
If saying what you think and their impact on you help you, then do it. Most probably, it’ll have no effect whatsoever on them.
Thank you Mephista.
I read and re-read Natalie’s “No Contact Rule” and identify myself in the anger phase, feeling like picking up the phone and saying all about him but it’s true that it would not help and I would just become the “crazy” one.
Sometimes I think.. do I really care what he may think about me? 😉 and my answer has surprinsingly changed in the last days. It used to be “Yes, I care” but now is “No, I don’t care what he thinks but I care what “I” think”. Not sure it’s an improvement but I feel sort of proud that my head is evolving towards myself and decoupling from him.
Keeping the NC… today has been a bit easier than yesterday.
Anna, please keep up the NC. Do it for as long as you can. The other person will NEVER validate you, and will only continue to hurt you as you let him back in to do it.
My analogy for trying to re-contact an EX, after breaking my own NC.
EX: I don’t love you. And if you notice, I did not say “I love you” last night when we hung up either. (Insert here image of ex trying to push me off the emotional balcony by out of the blue taking away his affection from me, and enjoying the shock of my understanding of this fact).
ME: (on realizing EX is EUM and AC not intent on preserving the relationship going forward)Initiated No Contact.
ME: (4 days later, me giving in and emailing EX, who never called me at all that time) Did you say you don’t love me, EX? Because there is no where for me to go after someone says that. Well, I will continue with my work and we should not talk until the end of the next week or so, to give us both time to sort out our feelings.
EX: (as he inches forward towards me again, hands outstretched to try to throw me off of the emotional balcony AGAIN!) I NEVER said that I did not love you. I would never say that to you. (Effing liar)
ME: (what the?) (He is trying to throw me off the emotional balcony again, denies what he said loud and clear about now not loving me).
ME: (wanting to email back to him and say, “well yes, you did say it, and you said x, and y and z, and that proves you said it.”)
But, ME instead: cancelling all email subscriptions we share to all services, blocking his phone numbers on my personal telephone, blocking is emails from personal and work on my computer, and making every effort to be genuinely involved in the happy aspects of my own life. He will never validate me, so there is NO reason for me to try to keep contacting him to get something he will never, ever give. I need to love me right now, and that is how I got over the last EX EUM and AC. Hope your situation works out for your good. God Bless.
Thank you Adele,
Ladies, your comments and posts, your experiences shared with all of us, reinforce my determination and the weak moments pass and anger relaxes when I read your encouraging words.
I read again the post from Natalie, with eyes not blinded by anger, and feels like that I need to learn a lot still.
During the initial phase, during a trip, I recall the first (and only) time I spoke clearly and said what was needed to be said. And I recall he took the train and went back home so I finished the vacations alone. Since that reaction (which should have raised red code alarms instead of letting me down), I simply hinted during the whole time, and I was scared to say what needed to be said.
I only hinted I was not happy, I only hinted I was feeling used, I only hinted I was feeling vampirised… Better now that I don’t hint anything else; now it is clear, it is over.
It’s been a while since I’ve posted. I’ve been working to get a healthy balance back into my life and to listen to my own voice/needs. It’s been really good for me. Got my bike out – I’ve really missed biking. Overall, just working on taking good care of me and listening to me.
This post resonated with me because this is something I have been working very hard on. I’m still learning, as many of us here are. A big obstacle has been the guilt and fear that comes up when I think about/do set a boundary.
I’ve had lots of successes over the last 3 months and have grown so much. I’m really proud of that growth. I’ve made mistakes (according to my perception), but I’m learning from those mistakes.
I’m in the home stretch, I think the woman I’m filling in for is coming back in a week!
A few weeks ago my boss put in his two weeks notice! I only knew because the HR person was interested in me for the position – yeah, right! I politely declined after pretending to give it a day to think it over. Lots of drama on their part for two weeks. Turns out he was likely bluffing to get a raise and he had them and they knew it.
The HR person has been coming to me for support since she’s been there. She had said she wanted me to stay after the person I’m filling in for came back.
In a moment of weakness I confided in her that I was feeling unsupported by my boss and she said she understood as she was always coming to me because he wasn’t any help. Feeling validated, and frankly relieved with the emotional support, I also mentioned that someone was putting his hands on me. BIG MISTAKE. I know, I know. Please don’t judge. I regret it for the most part and am working hard not to beat myself up. First she said he was in my personal space and I need to tell him to back off. I told her I was shocked and froze. She said “you allowed it” (blamed me). I told her that I have since responded and have got it handled. She said I think I know who you mean, “that’s just his way” (denial, minimize,rationalization). I asked her to keep it between us. She said if we have the conversation again she will talk to the VP.
She immediately pulled the aggressive director aside.
I know. I have done so well keeping my guard up and responding instead of reacting. I reacted.
I am now the bad guy.
Here’s the dilemma for me. The wrestling match I’m having with myself. What I imagine is not unique to me.
What did I do wrong? I told the truth. My truth. Yes, the truth is threatening to her and the company, but it is the truth.
I understand they don’t want to face his behavior or they’ll have to face their accountability for allowing it. It’s far easier to blame me.
What’s wrong is that I have to keep the secret to keep the peace.
There is a part of me that is very proud of me. I did it. I’m not keeping the secret. I spoke up – stuck up for myself. I’m not pretending it’s not happening. I’m not buying into the peace at all costs. I’m not denying that it’s happening or that it’s not bad.
I also recognize that their are consequences for this. I’m now a threat. A threat to the balance/lies/denial. I’m sure HR no longer wants me to stay on after “Sarah” returns. Which is fine, ’cause I wasn’t planning on it!
I wonder what price we pay by just going away quietly without speaking up.
My boss is thrilled!! The aggressive guy has been getting away with this without anyone calling him out. My boss has been super sweet and accommodating and back to the way he was when I first started. I’ve learned, I’m not buying it. He can switch back at any moment (and has). I am polite, but I do not engage more than I have to an only deal with him when I have to. I do not offer help. I’m acting cold as I can (very hard for me was raised to be a sweet, passive, smiling,compliant).
The HR person came by my desk the first few days after asking if I was ok. I just said yes. Of course I don’t trust her now. The VP avoids me. My guess is that the aggressive director is acting like a victim.
I look back at the last few months and have faced so many fears (terrors, really) and I am very proud of the progress. I have learned how to accept and respond to many different personalities/behaviors. I’ve set limits with people and let them feel their feeling about it without trying to fix it. I have developed good relationships/boundaries with most of the people there, including many who originally were wary of me because of the position I hold in the company and the toxic environment in which they work. I have lots of people (many who work directly for the aggressive director) that have my back. They go out of there way to help me out – sincerely help me.
I haven’t done it perfectly, whatever that is, but I’ve done really well.
I’m leaving footprints and some pissed off people. Working on feeling/healing what I need to in response to that!
Veracity, you actually did the right thing to tell. If you cover it up, the story will get twisted and you will be seen as a willing participant. Freezing when something happens is not a willing participant, trust me. Many people are so shocked at someone’s actions, that you don’t know how to react as you have not had the opportunity to process the situation long enough. That is why people who are hit with violent crimes in public cannot scream out sometimes, they are too shocked. HE is the liability to the company, not you, but you have more power than you think. Whether you would or not, you have the keys to a lawsuit on discrimination, sexual harassment, or bullying in the workplace – whether you decide to act on this or not, they know you could if you choose to do so. These lawsuits have big public awards, none of which the company would want to have put out there. I would suggest to start looking for another job just in case, and to redo your resume just in case. But until you are ready to leave, hold your head high, as you did all the right steps as I see it. You should start to feel really good as what you did was pretty brave, acknowledge that to yourself.
Thank you for your kind words of support, Adele. Once I got past my feeling that I had done something wrong – old messages/guilt- I felt/feel pretty good about it. I will go in with my head held high and detach from their feelings about it. It’s not my problem. I have actively been looking/networking for another job. This one was a short term position that ends in about a week. I will acknowledge that to myself.
Thanks again!
Welcome back Veracity. I am really pleased you are doing what you need to do, when you need to do it – you have worked damned hard for it and deserve it – where are you going next?
Or better still – where would you like to go that would work really well for you?
Thanks, Oona. I’m not sure where I’m going next. I’m still looking/networking. Reading about new business ideas. Exploring other fields/areas that would be a better fit for my skill sets/temperament. I’m going to take some time to relax, first and foremost!
Hey Natalie,
I’m not sure if you’ve realised what you had was not just an epiphany. Complete honesty with oneself, total authenticity and ability to see the truth in every situation. What you had was in fact a spiritual awakening! What a breath of fresh air! I feel like I can have endless conversation with you. You are right on track with your life purpose. Keep up the good work!