Experience has taught me through the pain of repeatedly putting my hand in the fire and living life lessons on repeat, that I don’t feel uneasy for no reason at all and that I must listen to and trust my gut. It doesn’t always mean that something ‘bad’ is happening but it is a prompt requiring me to slow down enough to listen to me, to be self-aware and to pay attention to my surroundings (the situation or person). As many of you have shared here, the less you listen, the louder or more uncomfortable it can become, or whatever you ignored comes back to bite you in the arse at a later date.
The most common example of this is with relationships – the very things that we turn a blind eye to and override due to other feelings we’re enjoying or ‘potential’, are the very things that prove to be an issue further down the line. We turn a right light green or we ignore certain things that don’t fit with our vision only to find that they form part of a larger picture and pattern of an issue. Then we beat ourselves up for not listening and if we’re too hard on ourselves and don’t actually heed the lesson from the insights gained and apply them, we actually forget to do the very thing that got us into problems in the first place – listen.
Our habits allow us to do a lot of things in our day-to-day lives without much thought, which is good in some respects because we’d be exhausted if we had to make decisions about every last thing and do everything ‘manually’. Where we run into issues is if we’re doing too many things out of habit that aren’t actually serving us and we’re operating on autopilot, defaulting to our comfort zones out of not wanting to get uncomfortable and use our judgment.
Our guts are there to wake us up. It’s our unconscious telling us to get conscious and reduce the amount of automation and coasting in our days. If you’re not listening to your gut, you’re ignoring you, and you’re ignoring reality while potentially operating in a high bullshit environment.
Your gut and your ability to decipher emotional reactions of unease or a signal to trust is learned over time. You’re most certainly not born with this skill that helps you to navigate life which is why your experiences and the type of support you’ve had in learning who you are and learning about the world are particularly important. Your willingness to listen to your gut and the ability to trust it can be compromised when your trust is breached, or when your feelings and opinions were invalidated, or you felt penalised and disapproved of if you made a mistake, or you were told or came to believe that you were worthless or “not good enough”.
Why are you going to trust something that you don’t think is of value or that you believe isn’t up to the standard that you ‘should’ be?
Instead of your gut being your friend that gives you feedback that helps you to trust the positive and recognise something of concern, the gut feelings become associated with a sense of failure, doom, or not being “good enough”. It becomes that ‘party pooper’ that recognises that the party is a bit sketchy and suggests that you leave because they can see that you’re very inebriated and on your way into trouble.
Sometimes your gut knows before your head does – this is OK. Have awareness of it along with the willingness to listen, as the truth of what you’ve registered will reveal itself.
Ignoring your gut is ignoring you and you’re worthwhile paying attention to, even if it’s to say, “It’s OK. I know you’re worried but _____________” instead of “Shut the eff up and stop ruining my life. I hate you!” It’s one thing if you have a ‘feeling’ about something, you’re not quite sure what it is, but nothing else shows itself over time to support it and you’ve been having the awareness to pay attention but, habitually ignoring important feedback and ignoring your gut about the same people and situations is also ignoring reality.
While your gut can be sending danger signals, often it’s messages like “Slow your roll and step back a little so that you can see more clearly” and “You’ve done the groundwork, I know you’re afraid but trust the information”.
Your gut doesn’t say stuff like “Hitch your wagon to that last chance saloon so that you can escape the you and the life you hate even though this person is a complete stranger”. That’s your conscious thoughts.
I had a group of people doing the usual griping about the near ‘awfulness’ of having boundaries which incidentally is like complaining about having self-respect. I told them: Boundaries aren’t a cockblocker.
Neither is your gut.
It’s a matter of practice. Check in with you regularly, especially when you’ve got “niggles”.
- What am I feeling?
- What is going on around me?
- Have I felt this way before? If yes, what was happening then? Familiarity with a previously shady situation is a code red alert – it’s repeating something that you shouldn’t be.
- Is there something I’m ignoring here?
- Am I going too fast? Or is it that I’m being distrusting in spite of compelling reasons to increase trust?
There’s a fear of getting things wrong but the quicker you learn to trust your gut and to learn from each decision irrespective of the outcome, is the more finely tuned your gut is. You can hardly spend thirty years ignoring your gut and then expect that every last decision you make from here till your dying day is going to be “right”. Life is a journey of on-the-job training. The information from things not working out this time contribute (if you learn from the insights gained), to helping you do better next time and at least when you do trust you, you eventually have more incidences of getting it right than you do of getting it ‘wrong’. And sometimes wrong isn’t wrong; it looks wrong now but don’t see that in the future it may very well prove to be right plus the more you trust you, it doesn’t matter about some old decision because you’re enjoying the benefit of subsequent decisions.
Your thoughts?
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Sometimes your gut knows before your head does is the absolute truth!
When we allow ourselves to take a step back and listen and ask why this feels familiar and we can identify it with a previous crisis averted or a disaster we rushed in to is crucial. Trusting your gut is all about learning to trust you. I know my last shady encounter was due to me thinking I was being dubious because of a previous shady encounter, when I really had good reason to be.
Going forward, I will be trusting my gut more and not talking to the person I feel my gut is trying to tell me something about – good or bad. I’ve learned that less is more. It makes no sense to tell someone who is good and decent that you had reservations about them and it makes even less sense to tell someone who is duplictous that you think they are. It’s not like any friend is going to say, “yes, I plan to sleep with your man behind your back” or any partner is going to say “yes, you’re right, I plan to screw you over the first chance I get.” On the contrary, most people will swear on a stack of bibles that you have them pegged ALL wrong when in fact you don’t and NOW they know you know it. You can catch people red-handed with their hand in the cookie jar and they will SWEAR they aren’t stealing!
Also, do we really need an OUTSIDE person to validate what OUR OWN gut is trying to tell us?
Yes outside people are helpful especially BR. Sometimes we try to play games with our gut and fight it. I can remember answering my narc/ac call after months of NC because I was down that day and had some issues. I knew he would temporarily make me feel better as he would say all the right things so I dipped my hand in the fire. My friends and I analyzed the shit out of my Narc throughout my relationship much like Carrie of Sex and the City. We even called him “Mr Big” I agreed to meet for lunch but I didn’t tell my besties. Not till after. I knew they would stop me from the madness. The fact that I initially hid it screamed at me loud and clear. You know this is dangerous, you know this is not a good thing and you can’t have contact with this man at any level. Thank God my gut kicked in and even though I enjoyed seeing him again every fiber of my body threw out warnings. Especially after three sleepless nights in a row! I went back to NC shortly after and Nat and the Br posters helped tremendously with that.
Great post Nat,once I’m at the point in my life where I’m trusting my gut I know things will fall into place,and it will eliminate most of the drama and people that are not suppose to be in my life.Thanks Nat!
Love this: “Instead of your gut being your friend that gives you feedback that helps you to trust the positive and recognize something of concern, the gut feelings become associated with a sense of failure, doom, or not being “good enough”. It becomes that ‘party pooper’ that recognizes that the party is a bit sketchy and suggests that you leave because they can see that you’re very inebriated and on your way into trouble.”
I hate it when I just sense something is amiss and yet cannot determine if it’s just fear based on insecurity or fear of something real and likely. I usually honor my gut feelings in other respects (which has actually saved me from potential physical harm) but when it comes to relationships, I tend to muzzle my gut. I try to logic away those hunches or misgivings. How does the tally stand?
Gut – 1001
Head/Heart – 2
It’s the subconscious that sees, hears and records all, screaming or nagging at us when something is off like when we receive feedback that by itself may not be all that telling but it says more than maybe what we are able to fully process in the moment. I can recall more instances than not when my gut flip-flopped, took a nose dive, or twisted into knots. What usually replaced the feeling is dread…and then I tend to go into fight or flight mode like a bat outta hell.
Good reminder to always trust the thing that’s always being fed, even when your heart isn’t. (-:
‘… fear based on insecurity or fear of something real and likely …’
You just exactly put into words the problem I have with listening to my gut. In work situations, my gut is right pretty much 80% of the time. In relationships it’s much easier to flounder. Also, if you’ve had the wool completely pulled over your eyes by a sketchy situation in the past, this can really dent your intuition. It’s a process I guess :-/
” It becomes that ‘party pooper’ that recognizes that the party is a bit sketchy and suggests that you leave because they can see that you’re very inebriated and on your way into trouble.”
Excellent!!!
I did ignore my gut with the ex narc and it was exactly as Nat says, I wanted my gut to eff off and stop trying to ruin all my fun. I am ashamed to say it wasn’t the massive Future Faking that tugged my gut. I thought it was sweet and fun and FLATTERING.
What kept niggling away at me was this one rather random thing. The fact that he had been in a relationship with a woman for 8 years and never lived with her. Then when they “split up” they kept getting back together again over and over again for another FIVE YEARS!!! I knew this was bad news, really bad news. Of all his odd behaviour (and there was plenty of it to choose from) it was this fact that my gut kept dragging me back to.
I just wish now I had listened to my gut from the very beginning when I simply found him very intense. I think though there is that fear that we end up dismissing everyone because we are generating red flags left right and centre. I guess the main thing I have to do is what Natalie calls “slowing my roll.” I do not do this in any part of my life. Everything is done full speed ahead! I have been trying to listen to my gut more and what I like about it is this. I never had much of a childhood (yeah, dry your eyes) and there is something about trusting my gut that makes me feel quite childlike and this is novel to me. I am usually very cerebral and trusting my gut is totally against the grain and feels quite, well dangerous, even though it is probably the opposite.
Wow, Victorious -I could really relate …that initial intensity is SO … comforting, addicting … and I too didn’t have much of a childhood (be gentle with yourself…) and what I mean by that is – Excessive responsibility at an early age … NO tolerance for mistakes (very punitive) … high standards “not good enough” environment … I have had trouble trusting my gut/making decisions – though at work, they see a totally different ME. I too am learning to just listen to myself – focusing more on my heart center, but will now give the gut some attention. I had the “niggles” for many (almost 12) years too .. his explanations of his past that were just very “pat” answers, too rehearsed/glib … this inner tug of “really?” … If a friend were describing some of this to me, I’d be saying “RUN!”. But I noticed myself, after the first few years, telling fewer and fewer friends about my complaints/concerns… so all that was left to listen to my worries was a diluted version of “me” … and by then, he was firmly implanted in my brain. I’ve come to see – he simply replaced my parents – specifically, my mother.
I have also come to see that he entered my life at a very vulnerable time, and am able to offer that younger me more compassion/forgiveness …
Reading this site and everyone’s responses has been very healing … Thanks for the clarity, Natalie ..and thanks everyone for sharing. I find I don’t feel so stupid when I realize .. I am not the only one to have walked this path.
Victorious, I just read your response on the Reflections post. You sounded just like me when I read the Miss Independent Miss Self-Sufficient chapter. It’s mind-blowing. I’m glad you found it helpful.
It’s interesting how the set-up sounds perfect but there is always a little “niggly”. Like you, I’ve always thought my head knew better and it goes against my grain to trust my gut. I do think, for me, it is the opposite. My head concocts fantasies…Donny Osmond? Mine was Greg on the Brady Bunch! But I’m with you on Johnny Dep…dreeeamy.
Thanks Runnergirl. I cannot tell you (except you clearly already know) what a total life saver this site has been for me. I am staying clear of men/dating whilst I sift through all this stuff emotionally. I think I need to order Nats Fantasy/Dreamer book and progress from there. At least I have been able to improve my life in other areas though by applying boundaries which I just didn’t have before. Thanks again for all your support.
I have always been an impetuous, adventurous, thrill – seeking person. I did always feel that my gut, as Natalie mentions, was the “party pooper”. I would forge ahead with whatever it was I just had to do, have, experience and/or joyfully soak up. Many times the experience proved to be not very pleasant, much less joyful. Then, I would be kicking myself because my gut warned me and I refused to acknowledge and certainly did not take heed. These days, I take things MUCH SLOWER, and especially if the situation looks especially good because I know how easily I’ve been lead into self destructive behaviors. I’m seeing a psychologist who is helping me with the use of Cognitive Behavior Therapy. For me, it has been the best thing since sliced bread and I’m making progress rapidly. Still, I have a long way to go. Also, I’ve found that avidly following BR stories, helps me to consider what my gut would tell me if I were in that particular situation. Bottom line. IMO, by being willing to listen to your gut you can avoid many, many pitfalls that your raging hormones, acute loneliness, etc. can lead you into. I’m learning and enjoying the high of making a happier healthier life for myself. I’m saying “At last”, but, then again, remembering it’s better late than never.
Yea that adventurous, thrill seeking persona is what most likely attracted me to my Narc even though my gut told me “player”!! I was having a blast until I wasn’t and then I was again….I always liked the roller coaster ride but now that I am older and wiser I hate it! I get dizzy and nauseous.
OOps. It was MR. Writer that coined the phrase “party pooper”.
“Life is a journey of on-the-job training.”
And how Natalie!! We need to start educating our young people in the art of trusting their gut.
This article is spot on. I knew he was bad news from the moment I saw hi sorry arsed face on match.com. I ignored what my gut was telling me. Big mistake
I think so often we second guess ourselves because the ‘popular wisdom’ tells us to allow some crap behavior from men. I’m thinking Mars/Venus, Millionaire Matchmaker (US TV show), ‘The Rules’, etc.
So someone treats us poorly, or says something that we find ‘off’, we are instructed to see the other side, imagine HE’S having a hard day and needs to retreat to his ‘cave’, WE are being pushy/needy, we aren’t being open/accepting. I could go on for hours. But when you feel one way, and everyone and the ‘experts’ tell you you shouldn’t feel that way, you DO come to second guess yourself. And that’s how we all wind up on this site!
Tracy, Spot on!! It’s really pretty simple. Stay with your feelings instead of sliding over to them and feeling how they must be feeling and then fix it.
Staying with my feelings, however, fleeting they may be is my gut, intuition, my reality. Once I sit there, journal about it, I can decide how I am going to act on it. And the more I do that, and act on it, the more I trust my intuition, the stronger i get. Another tip, I have followed, as soon as someone tells me how “I should” be feeling or what “I should” do, I say thank you for your “unasked for advice” I turn around and run. NO ONE knows what “I should” do, but me, they aren’t me!!! If they want to talk and ask me how I feel about something, I will sit and talk till the cows come home. They are the ones who want to get to know me for me, not impose their views, etc, etc, on me.
I have
Any good qualities but they have most always caused me a world of hurt. The impetuous, impulsive an, curious, and adventurous, living on the edge has led to my undoing. Ignored would be and understatement. No wonder my life is in shambles. But hope lies ahead with the timely information that Natalie provides us with. I am but a child, I will have to learn to crawl before I can walk. No more ignoring me or my gut. I know there are going to be many mistakes made. It s okay as l of this is new, I never knew any different, it may be why I am alone, disabled and suffering so. I have the rest of my life to work on me and find out who I am. Thanks to all…
reallllly good, Nat.
this one is bang on for me , right now, and any time i’m seeing someone.
i loved “the gut feelings become associated with a sense of failure, doom, or not being “good enough”. It becomes that ‘party pooper’ that recognises that the party is a bit sketchy and suggests that you leave because they can see that you’re very inebriated and on your way into trouble.”
the only thing i’d disagree with, and i don’t even know that i disagree but i’d discuss: is that , I have recently found myself in a situation that has SOME repeating factor to it –except– I can see this time where my defense mechanisms screwed me and things up last time –and also this is a different dude (last was a Narc and thank God really it went tits up) This one is a decent man I am finding out , even tho my gut wanted me to ditch several times and i created drama. I was literally misinterpreting things thru my “abuse/neglect” filter. I had to step out a bit and look objectively and my viewpoint changed.
So, i don’t know what that says about my gut. It has a slightly defective tendency to freak out? I just keep an eye on it. But the repeating …well i guess i’m saying sometimes it’s not what it looks like?
I knew – I knew before I looked at his phone the last morning I saw him, that I was one of many. What I couldn’t have known was just how many. Bright shiny EUA texting at his absolute best with a crop of new girls. All the same moves, all the same plans.
I told him I would not do casual, I would not be one of many, he reminded me he ‘couldn’t’ do a relationship (we’re five months in), and that was it.
15 days NC – excruciating – head/heart battle almost every day. He hasn’t reached out, which is almost more insulting, but reality. Narc harem is intact!
But I KNEW it was, my instincts were right where I left them, under a pile of EUA’s bullshit.
THIS. Months prior, my gut told me he was bad news. Hell, HE told me he was bad news. But I ignored all the red flags. Oh well… onward an upward. Today makes 10 days of NC!
I think that “I’m not good for you” line is utter BS. Mine said the same thing that last morning – ‘you should date and find find a better man for you’ – – – I responded ‘and if you’re the man I want?’
He said: ‘not happening’
And I’m still bugged? It has to be over the rejection, feeling thrown out like so much garbage. Instead of embracing NC, I wake up every day thinking of casual texts to send to break the ice. I need to get out of my head!!
Hi Anna, I can relate. That’s up there with the ‘you deserve better’ lines that most of us here have had. THEY reject us when they recognize that it’s just a matter of time before we suss things out and dump them (heaven forbid we dump them and bruise their ego), OR they’ve gotten what they came for and now we are no longer ‘useful’, OR we’ve allowed too much boundary busting and devalued ourselves and therefore they are no longer attracted to us. It is an ego blow for us. But remember, no matter WHAT they say, the only person who can truly reject you is you. He is a clown and not worth ‘the steam off your pee’. Resist the urge to contact, he’ll just us it as an opportunity to reject and feel superior some more…danger danger danger. What he says IS true…he is no good for you BELIEVE it, but don’t let it get into you that it’s because he’s better somehow, he’s not that special. Mine tried that BS, implying that he was better off than I was, that he was ‘leaving me behind’ as if somehow that he was now in counselling with his wife that he was going to be ahead of me somehow. I was the reason he wound up there by forcing him into a position to have to do the right thing. I was already miles ahead of him, he just can’t see it, just like he couldn’t see that I wasn’t as insecure as he thought I was and sussed out his game and exposed him for what he truly was. Try hard to let this AC be, he will always be an AC, always was, acceptance of this is the only way to move past…don’t let his words blind you to the truth behind them. Maybe read Nat’s post on putting too much weight on words – that was/is my achilles heel, still working on looking past them.
Anna,
Don’t beat yourself up about it. NC is a daily struggle for me as well. I sometimes think of emailing or calling him. Then I think of all the crappy things he did and said, and the urge to contact him goes away pretty quickly.
I know from experience how hard NC can be, I am now over 4 months NC and I can honestly say there is no way I would ever voluntarily contact him. I still feel slightly at risk re responding to him, but only if he caught me when I was drunk/desperate. It DOES get better, please please believe me. I wish I had known at the start that I would not be in “that agony” forever. You will get over it just as I have.
Thanks so much – all of you – it’s like overcoming an addiction! He’s had access to my pandora account & I went in tonight & deleted his stations then felt GUILTY that he won’t be able to listen to his music tomorrow.
As if he felt guilty when I walked away in tears?
Thanks for listening & for giving me hope that it won’t always SUCK 😉
Don’t worry, it won’t always suck. It would have if you were still with him though 🙂
Here’s one for you. Shall I believe my amazingly unpleasant ex when he tells me that the reason why he blanked me for a week whilst he was thousands of miles away was because he was in fact ‘making lots of people’s live a lot better’ and the woman I thought he was having an affair with (I didn’t suggest he was having an affair with anyone particularly, more that I didn’t entirely trust him) was actually someone he cured of not speaking for 3 months because she’d been gang-raped and that’s what he was doing for the three weeks after I left. Not that he thought to mention any of that at the time or indeed after I’d put his stuff into storage. Apparently, though, he is not ‘qualified’ to cure me of my ‘madness’. My gut instinct screams ‘nonsense!’.
When it smells shady it usually is shady in my experience. A true case of trust your gut!
Dear Shyner,Who is this guy?? Does he travel faster than a speeding bullit, has a big ‘S’ on his t-shirts, walk on water, making people’s lives better all around the continents!!!! What a croc of crap spills out of his mouth…he disappeared for a week cos he had other things planned..end of story. I think you should go NC immediately, then make him wonder if he can cure you of that!! Be good to yourself.
Yep – nonsense. As in !!!nnnoooonnnnssseeeennnnnsssssse!!!
But even if it isn’t, that doesn’t make it okay. If you can’t help someone without making someone else miserable then it doesn’t amount to much.
And if the miserable person is someone for whom you’ve taken on a degree of emotional responsibility and accountability (by dint of being in a relationship with them/living with them/expecting them to babysit your stuff) then that’s even worse.
Who’d be impressed by someone who left his own children to starve while he built an orphanage with his own hands? You’d have to assume that whatever was motivating him, it wasn’t the welfare of children.
He doesn’t care about you, he doesn’t care about himself, but he expects you to believe that he’s totally motivated to care about the human race in general? Yeah, right.
Shyner, really? That’s what you’re gut instinct is screaming? Reading your comment, my gut instinct was screaming ‘Just STOP TALKING to this cock smoker already!’ Oh wait, that wasn’t my gut instinct, that was ME.
OK, so remind me again why you are continuing to let this loser flap his asshole gums in your direction? You got all of his crap out of your house, at your expense and effort (still think you should have bonfired the crap out of that shit) and kindly let him know where it was. In you doing that he got way more of your consideration than he deserved. That should have been end of. Loser should be DEAD to you. Dead people don’t get to ‘explain’ their shitty behaviour to you using patently ridiculous excuses. You see what he did there? He got to try to convince you he has the magical powers to restore speech (AWESOME GUY!) AND tried to suspend your outrage by making it appear as if you are in the wrong to be disbelieving him when he was helping some aggrieved third party (AKA known as the poor girl he was fucking). Wake up and smell the bullshit. The only gang bang going on here is the one you are allowing him to perpetrate on your sanity and self worth. Who the fuck cares what his shitty excuses are.
So shall you believe him? NO YOU SHALL STOP GIVING THIS FUCKER ANY OXYGEN, TIME OR ONE MINUTE’S MORE THOUGHT. Concentrate on Shyner and work out the reasons why you found yourself with this unspeakable loser, and still can’t seem to cut contact with him.
Ms. Determined – “Cock smoker” will now be added to my vocabulary. Totally stealing that phrase.
NONSENSE Shyner. If there was ever a time to listen to your gut, it is now. He cured somebody who couldn’t speak after she’d been gang raped? He’s making lots of people’s live a lot better? Seriously? What about you? This guy sounds pretty full of himself. Listen Up!
It’s just such a bizarre thing to say. He also said he couldn’t understand why I put his stuff in storage – all that effort!, he said. He tells me we could have had a long and happy life together if only I hadn’t ruined it all. This was all part of a ten minute rant at me before he put the phone down. I said nothing at all. I think I was so flabberghasted by it all that I just sat there listening. He was so rude, obnoxious and unpleasant going so far as to say that he should have known on day one that I was going to be trouble. Amazing, really, that he is qualified to deal with a victim of gang-rape and restore her power of speech yet can’t cope with his girlfriend’s insecurity. I do think now, though, that my ‘insecurity’ was actually my gut feeling trying to tell me to get out. A lot of what Natalie has said here rings true. I was particularly interested in the part about having been told that you’re not worth much being the reason why you wouldn’t trust yourself.
“We could have had a long and happy life together if only you hadn’t ruined it all… I should have known on day one that you were going to be trouble!”
Shyner, those aren’t just obnoxious comments, they’re one step away from threatening. He’s in a rage because you won’t come along quietly into whatever planned performances he wants to stage. You’ve been cast in a role by him, the Director and Star of course, but you refuse to play along. Stay away from him, his lies and inventions, and his Theatre of the Absurd.
I agree with all above statements Shyner, he is a grade ‘A’ Assclown. He is fucking with you to the nth degree. What the f***. I’ve been fed similar in the past, but not to the same level as this creep. ‘Oh, I couldn’t call you for days because my friend’s wife was in the hospital and I had to be there for him’ – does this mean you lost the ability to pick up a phone? I know men aren’t good at multitasking, but that’s absurd that you think I’m going to believe that everytime you are involved with one thing, the rest of the world just falls away. It’s classic, ‘you can’t think I’m a bad guy, look at how good I am to the world, how important I am, how needed I am, you’re lucky to have me in your life in any capacity…’ It’s all crap, Narc crap, toxic crap, run run run he is beneath you but trying to power play you to believe the opposite so he can get what he wants from you. lies lies lies. Please shut your doors and windows to this man, he is veeeerrry sick.
Dear Shyner,
He is using the AC ammunition that they all use when “your onto them”, “got them sussed”. They all do it…they become all outragous, they make up the most ridiculous reasons and excuses bordering on the totally ridiculous to make them look like they are the most amazing frigging person ever born. Believe me, you are well rid of this zero-man, he has zero to offer you. One clown that my friend briefly dated told her that he did not call her as his AGARAPHOBIA was ‘playing up’ and could not leave the house to see her but was seen on the golf course,and at the movies!!!
Trust that gut, Shyner. He could have texted, he could have told you what he was doing, where he was going, not just disappear for a week. That is BS!
The thing I’m really struggling with is that I let this happen to me in the first place. More than that, that I keep letting him say things to me that only serve to batter my self-confidence. It’s an intrinsically unpleasant thing to have someone keep coming back to batter you emotionally a bit more but I am letting it happen. I think all the right things but my actions don’t show it. I worry that I am repeatedly setting myself up for a fall. My family situation is the root of all this and I know that so what do I do next?
Oh my god, I’ve made such a fool of myself – I’ve been completely taken for a ride, haven’t I. Do people like that really exist? The more I think about it, the less I want to believe it but all arrows point toward BS. I don’t think there’s any escaping it. I feel like I need to get away, hide for a while and get my head together. The time I’ve wasted! I feel better than I did but this stuff has really knocked me sideways. He has absolutely zero empathy and a guilty conscience. And i am such a soft touch. He knows I have not been treated well in the past and his main concern is that he is not added to that list, even though he is doing the same.
Well, apparently there was a woman who was presenting that way. That doesn’t feel make much difference to things, though. He still didn’t call for a week.
I know you are really hurting Shyner, but like Rev says, you have to try to see the funny side. I can’t quote Woody Allen but I can quote Bruce Springsteen “Someday we’ll look back on this, and it will all seem funny, baa naa naa!”
You CANNOT take this dickhead seriously. Stay well away from him because I can guarantee he will keep coming back until he realises his game is totally up. No, absolutely No Contact!
This has all flagged up my insecurities, big style. I have some work to do on myself before I can be in a relationship. We’ve pushed each other’s buttons. Not good. Or very good, depending on how you look at it.
Shyner, I felt the same way, I had to work through the disbelief of the situation, then the anger of being duped, then the shame of ‘how’d I get in this position?’. And yes it has to do with family situation, I was brought up with EUMs, so how could I have possibly known what a healthy relationship looked like? Still working on my family dynamics furiously so that I too won’t find myself in this position again. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I’m taking this to heart, I have no shame in this situation, I didn’t know. Now I know, if I find myself in this situation again, it’s on me. Try not to be hard on yourself, it’s a barrier to understanding, compassion for oneself is hard to find sometimes, but it is the only way.
I’m doubting myself a lot. Really a lot. He is so angry with me and just keeps saying I’ve ruined a brilliant relationship. What if he’s right and I’ve misinterpreted everything? I don’t know how to trust myself and I know my disappearing dad and difficult mum are a big part of this problem for me and I don’t know how to solve it – just that I have to.
I would think that he’s not mad at you, but at the loss of control of the situation, he’s trying everything to regain control, using anger as a tool against your self doubt – DON’T LET HIM!!! NC NC NC Don’t open the door or any window to this dirtbag. You need time, space and distance to begin to integrate what you are learning here. As long as he is around preying on your ‘weaknesses’, and he will look for them in all directions believe me, you won’t be able to process it all. He is trying to hold on to you to keep you clouded, you need to be on your own to gain your clarity and sanity. Trust all of us, it’s the only way. We’ve all been in your shoes one way or another and everyone here is at different stages in the process. Trust yourself to it and keep talking to us. Whatever you do, don’t talk to him, he’s only interested in what he can get from you, not you.
Also, yes these people do exist in far greater numbers than is comfortable, that’s why it is so vital that we educate ourselves to protect ourselves. I once dated a guy who claimed to have a brain tumor, nope, just a prescription drug habit. Before this guy, I had no idea these duplicitous sorts existed to that level. I didn’t know before my recent ex that someone could appear soooo innocuous, pursue, dote upon, emote so freely and be the eqivalent of the guy with the fake tumor! But now that I have found BR and have a wealth of EU relationships of experience to draw from, I should be teaching a class in a few months 🙂
What’s my excuse? I had a great family situation but never had experience with a Narc and asked myself the same “How did this happen to me?” question. Never had self esteem issues either until I met the jerk and he tried to break my spirit. It could happen to anyone that is exposed to these wolves in sheep’s clothing! None of are immune unless we recognize the red flags early and make a quick escape.
I think perhaps he found a new, interesting, ‘incredibly attractive’ woman to work his magic on, who no doubt thinks he’s amazing and so I’m not needed. I literally can’t make any sense of it – hence my massive doubts about my own thoughts.
I dunno beth, but you’re not the only one who wound up in the same situ that came from a good family dynamic. Maybe fantasy prone, fell in with the wolf in sheep’s clothing that did a number on your self esteem and set you up for more of the same? I think those of us from poorer dynamic background may take longer to get out, or take it harder…me thinks. Or you’re right, everyone is susceptible, it’s about life lessons. I never understood the dynamics of being an OW, judged it in fact. Now that I’ve been through it, I get it and have more compassion for those who’ve wound up there. It’s a part of life and now that I’ve been talking to my friends about it, guess what? Most of them have also been there – maybe it’s a right of passage of sorts for those of us who really need a wealth of relationship experience to draw from. 🙂
Shyner, IF it is true he’s found a new shiney plaything, she won’t find him amazing for long or is going to wind up in a world of hurt just like you. You did the right thing, stop second guessing yourself! (I’m guilty of this too)
I don’t know about the taking it harder because that kind of devastation is excruciating no matter who it happens to and it does scar you to some extent. I do tend to agree with you that they may not stay in as long unless significant changes are made. I fought mine from day 1. He use to call me a little pitbull. The bad thing is that he did keep coming back stronger and that set the relationship insanity in motion. I wanted badly to believe in “us” and our special soulmate connection he always spoke of. I really believe it would still be going on if I didn’t find BR. I found out the jewelry, gifts, vacations, hot sex were all addicting and intoxicating but….none of that is worth it if you know it is imminent that excruciating pain is on the horizon and it could come at a moments notice. The drama is exhausting and sucks the energy out of your soul. I can’t put a price on the peace I have since he is out of my life although I know it is just a matter of time when he will try once again to infiltrate my life. I pray that I am wrong but it doesn’t matter. The door is closed for good with the cockroach. I love that word jewells!
Shyner, can we get a reality check here?
I feel like this guy has found the perfect button to push with you: “You ruined what was going to be a brilliant relationship.”
But what’s the reality here?
He’s putting your focus where he wants it to be: there he is, miracle worker, raising the dead and counseling the bereft, and all because you have no trust and can’t go 1 week without a phone call (can we say needy?!) you put his stuff in storage like a drama queen and ruin this amazing relationship.
Reality check time: I’m not going to comb through past threads, but wasn’t his disappearing the last straw on top of a huge stack of shady behavior? I think you were supporting him, he was giving you little info about his plans, you asked him not to go on this trip? Something like that?
Where’s the brilliant relationship?
As in relating brilliantly. As in he wasn’t relating (in the narrating sense) anything to you, nor was he relating (as in the texture of a shared life and responsibilities) TO you.
He’s taunting you with a mirage. There was no brilliant relationship, there wasn’t any communication when he pooled, and the ONLY thing you have ruined is his storage-area-with-free-sex arrangement. Which may have been brilliant for him, but wasn’t a relationship (except of tenuous exploitation).
He is MAD. He is really really MAD that you took away his gravy train.
He knows you wanted a brilliant relationship, so that is what he is using to both a) hurt you back and b) get back inside where it’s warm and cosy.
He HATES that you exercised some control over the situation. Now you need to pay with self-doubt.
I didn’t mind him going on the trip at all. I know all evidence points to you being right. In fact, the more I think about it, the clearer that picture becomes. But I just don’t want to think of things being like that – I just didn’t think it could possibly come down to that. There were good times, too. Blimey, I don’t know – it’s all a bit weird and rubbish. He could have called and that’s that. I find it very strange that he is no way interested in anything I have to say and is so called and angry. It’s sinking in, ladies. Slowly.
Shyner,
Were you supporting this guy?
I guess I was. We got together immediately on being in contact again and he basically lived here. He was penniless and was loaned money by someone he worked with. He is in a lot of debt and will have to declare himself bankrupt. He left a lot of stuff here when he went away. He cooked and in lots of ways seemed like a romantic, lovely domestic set-up.
Well he is playing the victim now – the guy I was involved with, done the same – when he went silent on me for 10 days and I asked if this is how he chooses to end things, he said I didn’t contact him as well (though it was me who last wrote him and received no answer). As if he doesn’t need to do things to keep the communication going (call, enquire, etc.), placing the burden and the responsibility just on me! Does this blame-shifting sounds any familiar to you?
These guys know we want to make things civil (discuss everything and etc.), yet silence is how they “punish” us (by not giving what we want). He knew I take vanishing as the rudest way to end things, and yet he did exactly that. This guy in your situation is doing just the same-wants you to believe his explanations, but doesn’t want to hear what you have to say, leaving you in a limbo and making you feel guilty and second-guess yourself.
Not one thing I have said has been acknowledged or I haven’t been allowed to speak at all. To be honest, I’m glad he’s gone but it leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth, some difficult sadness and a whole lot of confusion. I just want to get over this mountain of uncertainty and summon up some out-and-out self-worth and confidence in my gut feelings.
Even if I totally misinterpreted everything, by now if he really thought we were amazing, he would have dropped the nasty, dismissive side by now and would have wanted to set about getting to the bottom of things. And Anyway, my view is that it wasn’t a brilliant relationship but it wasn’t all bad and my feelings about that amounted to nothing. I don’t want to be in a relationship with someone who drinks like a fish, smokes their head off, can’t take responsibility for his part in things and doesn’t see his children. i think I fell for the potential because I am/was too desperate, forgiving and understanding.
I know what you mean when saying “it wasn’t all that bad”. Yes, we do have some nice moments with those guys, which kind of “pay-off” all those not so nice moments, when we’re left wondering of what is happening. Let me remind you, that those rare nice moments are called crumbs.
I wonder what is his definition of an “amazing” relationship and somehow I suspect its a synonim of “comfortable”: its amazing as long as you don’t raise any issues that are significant to you (so yeah, you “spoil” things when you dare pushing him out of his comfort zone).
I don’t know if desperate is the right word in here. I’d actually use the word *confused*.
After reading loads of various crap that the mass media is providing, being in my late 20ties, I really didn’t know how do I draw a line between a mans need for alone time and being a booty-call? being needy and wanting a proper amount of attention? So I got to learn this the hard way- to experience everyhing in practise (2 EUMs/ACs in one year), which has brought me here.
Girls and women are taught to be forgiving and understanding even in the cases we shouldn’t be(e.g.loads of articles of how infidelity “strengthens” a relationship and similar crap, which is aimed mostly towards women – I’ve never seen an article in a mens journal saying “She cheats on you? How can infidelity help your relationship grow”).
Articles about mens jerky behaviour emphasise mens needs, telling women to pay attention to them so not to loose a man, yet theres no reciprocation on the fact that women have needs too, yet not only men, but women themselves aren’t taught to meet them! The primary focus is placed on the needs of men, so its not weird at all that it only results in womens self-doubt and lowering their standarts to *lower-than-a-ground* level, at the same time labelling this as “being desperate”.
Im glad mine got louder and louder and wouldnt go away . It kept on and on and i did try and push it down . Gut is more sensible that a overthinking head and a blind heart . Listen to youre gut
I think that I could probably rally a chorus with this comment; until a few years ago, I was so out of touch with my feelings that I did not even have a gut to go on. It was so sad. It was just beaten out of me as a kid and as an adult it took forever to figure out when someone was stepping on my boundaries…by the time I realized that I was hurt, mad, sad whatever, they were off doing it again, or just off after having taken advantage. It makes me so sad to think back at all those times that I just felt so hollow and like I was a shell of an outside of a person trying so hard to convince myself that I was worthy of something…it was like there was no one there but a shut down little girl in a 30 something body.
Now I have gut feelings but what is still hard is honoring them; the last relationship was SO boring for me and I felt SO unattracted that towards the end I was literally cringing when he touched me…but I did not honor my feelings because I just kept thinking that something was wrong with me, that this supposedly decent guy was boring me to tears…
But you know what? Firstly he turned out to be not super decent and secondly…there was no emotional intimacy. Sure he could mow a mean lawn and rake some leaves but looking back, he did that as a way to keep me around…he did not want to have to do the hard stuff which was to be open and vulnerable so he did the easy physical chore stuff to confuse me and keep me around. I doubted myself but really; was it so wrong that, at 45, I wanted occasional deep conversations and emotional moments? No it was not.
I get it now, I finally get it; what I need is what I need and I am never going to tell myself that someone else’s method of showing affection supercedes my needs; if I need a good quality conversation that is what I need! I can get someone else to mow the lawn, thanks.
My gut will never be ignored again. EVER.
Wow dancingqueen, I can really relate to this sentiment and it is great you are honoring your gut/feelings. I definitely need more practice in that. We former Fallback Girls can find it hard to let go of the “decent guys” and ignore our gut feelings because being with the decent guy seems to be the right thing to do. But what if we’re not into the seemingly “decent” guy? What if there are flaws that we overlook/tolerate because we realize that, at least he’s not as bad as the last EUM/AC? It feels like an obligation to hold onto those guys who treat us semi-okay because we’re so used to the toxicity of dysfunctional relationships. With that as a comparison, any guy would look halfway decent.
We want not just the decent guy but the guy that really fulfills us, that doesn’t make us think we’re settling, that doesn’t bore us. I know Natalie has written posts before about how the lack of physical chemistry initially might not be a bad thing at first since we’re so used to the up-down, hot-cold narratives of AC’s/EUM’s which excite us, but I think that chemistry with the right person at least grows over time. Whereas if we’re just settling, it probably won’t.
i am starting to think that basic human characteristics (BHC) don’t count as personal shared values. you can meet a guy who has BHC but who doesn’t share your personal values so it won’t feel right even if they are a “nice guy”. you get blinded from ways they diverge on actual values by the nice factor cos you’re not used to basic human decency. fallback girl meters are so warped by experiencing a-grade assclowns. a person with low self esteem’s “nice” is a normal person’s “normal”. people who have no or low standards do the emotional equivalent of giving someone extra exam points for spelling their name right on the exam sheet.but guess what if they don’t answer the exam questions right, they still fail.
I really like that phrase, “Basic Human Characteristics.” We do tend to inflate any decent quality in a guy because of our experiences with bad ones. Instinctively though, we know that any guy with BHC can seem decent despite his flaws or the gut feeling we get from them.
Recently I met a decent guy who acted nice to me, waited with me when I needed company, and we appeared to have some compatibility even though I wasn’t that attracted to him. However, I found that my whole body was charged with this idea of “NO.” I simply did not want to date him. I wasn’t sure if it was because I was being shallow, or because I wasn’t ready. But not just my gut but my entire self was armed against having any experience with this guy.
I was caught in the dilemma of, are you just being shallow and not dating the people you usually would? Or are you trusting your gut about the fact that this might not be the right guy for you? Because there were also other qualities I saw in him that made me feel a bit stifled so I wasn’t sure.
And sure enough, when he asked me out, on a day that wasn’t convenient for me, and I explained I was exhausted and couldn’t today, all I got was “Ok.” No other thing, even though I had asked how he was. There was just something EUM and weird about that.
Even the EUM’s I’ve dated had been more expressive, and I find I need someone who is more expressive. And yes, I want someone who I feel physically attracted to. Men usually don’t settle for less than that, yet women feel obligated to. I just don’t want to. I settled for a long time, and I can’t do it anymore. Maybe that’s what my gut was telling me.
Hi courtney, I can totally relate. There’s a guy I went on several dates with who I knew as a friend the past few years. He had always been interested and finally took initiative to ask me out recently; however when we finally did go out, the weirdest thing happened: something was missing, and my gut was telling me not to put forth any energy in the situation. I still can’t put my finger on it, and it’s strange considering he is 100 percent right for me on paper, and the situation was setting itself up to be promising. Lately I’ve been finding my ego looking for validation and wishing he’d ask me out again but my gut is telling me to leave it alone. I know that someone will come along who is a better match for me! Keep the faith 🙂
Dancing
A lot of men can be decent but they are incapable of intimacy and emotion. I think it goes for women too, but I’m straight so can’t say how that plays out in relationships.
They don’t do the practical stuff just to keep you around necessarily, it’s more the case that they don’t know how else to give.
My father is a good person with integrity. But he is EU and does not know how to share emotionally. He can cook so when I see him he would always try to give me something to eat. I see it now for what it was. Love. But food isn’t enough to sustain a close relationship. We get on, we have each other’s back, and we wouldn’t rip each other off or take the piss, but we will never be close.
You did the right thing. We do have to be careful of conflating decent person with emotional intimacy, or even “not an assclown” with being decent.
Physical attraction and chemistry does follow emotional intimacy I think. After six months I think the boyfriend is amazingly attractive. He’s beautiful to me. Logically, I know it’s not possible that he is more handsome than a year ago, but that’s how it feels. Don’t believe the common “wisdom” that attraction fades with time or that familiarity breeds contempt. That’s not true where there is a real connection. (Real, not fantasy, and it’s not about sex)
DQ, Grace, Kookie et al; I’ve been exploring this within myself lately. I broke my ankle in the fall and a male work colleague who was there when I was hurt has been immensely helpful. He took me to the hospital, picked me up 5 days later (required surgery), texted me everyday to check in and make sure I wasn’t getting depressed, took me to get groceries, out for coffee, he reassured me that he did it because he enjoyed it. I in turn did recognize during this that there was an interest in me and a relationship of sorts, hints were there and my gut told me to be mindful, so I kept myself in check by not asking anything of him, but let him offer his help and only took it if I actually needed it, I didn’t encourage or intimate that we were doing anything other than what friends would do for one another and thanked him often. I had found him attractive in the past, but never got to know him back then. This has actually been a good opportunity to get to know him and I have found that despite his display of ‘decent guy’, he really is EUM, with a AC tendency underneath that he has desperately been trying to keep under wraps, but because I have been taking my time with him, it has inadvertantly come to the surface at times. I also found myself really unattracted to him and really can’t spend much time with him. But as he had been so helpful and thoughtful, I gave him a chance. But then I also look back and reflect on how many AC’s Narc’s EUM’s go for women at their most vulnerable and THAT may be what he was doing. Bottom line, I made sure that I didn’t come out ‘owing’ him anything (by not letting him do more than absolutely needed, letting him offer and he stated that he really just wanted to help) but my gratitude. But the time spent also gave me time to assess the situation and see what the dynamic really was and practice keeping myself in check.
@courtney, grace, kookie, jewels I really appreciate all your comments: it is important that, in taking care of ourselves, we don’t “conflate” as Grace so aptly put it, men who are decent and kind with needing to be considered as the right one; it is true that desire can wane and wax but feeling turned off physically by someone is definitely a sign that something is wrong. I am just not willing anymore to burn my hand in the “he is so safe” fire anymore than I am willing to burn my hand in the “he is so hot and dangerous” fire either lol.
I have been online dating lately except that I am not even getting to the dating part! The string of eum men who approach me are so laughable that I just pretty much hit delete on a daily basis. What kind of conversation can “hey whats up cutie?” engender?
I do have a new freind though from the experience who is kind of cool. He is a no photo, no wanting to meet guy who apparently is home bound due to illness and he is using OKCUPID to just make some freinds and email. He seems to be a very decent person who is really cool to talk to; we write maybe twice a week, long emails, complaining about how shallow and weird cyber dating is, discussing literature and movies and each of our obsessions; mine animal rights, his art. I have to say, that even though I have no interest in meeting him, nor he I, it has been cool to just email and talk to someone about things and not feel like there is an agenda on either side.He is just a really interesting and normal sounding person who is able to have a good conversation. I think that we both just feel isolated where we both are; me in the deep south as a democrat, vegan atheist and he as a thoughtful arty dude back in the swamps of LA.
In some ways I have to say that coming here, and hearing from all of you, even though I will never meet any of you, has really made me feel less alone and less defective and my conversations with this man via email do something similar; they feel healthy and vibrant although it is all cyber based. I read the other day that 43% of people over 45 in the US are single…that seems such good news to me but why can’t I meet anyone? Oh well, the bottom line is, that sometimes a good conversation, even in cyber world, is more meaningful than a bad conversation with a real person. I am starting to see that cyber freindships/support groups in many ways, can be real and valuable and meaningful. I had looked down on technology but now I am seeing it differently. It is not always the creator of shallow connections.
Another point I’d like to make. I don’t know if Natalie has touched on it, I suppose she has,lol. She leaves no stone unturned, I just don’t recall.
I think this point ties in rather well, and that would be our conscience. The old adage comes to mind, “Let your conscience be your guide”. It is the little voice that screams at us, NO! Don’t do that it’s wrong, or you’ll regret it! It keeps us, safe, strong and healthy in all aspects of our life.
I know I have personally ignored mine, to the point of searing it. When you choose to ignore it or over-ride it, it becomes seared. The first few times may be difficult, but as it is done time and again, it becomes easier. At first you’re guilty, regretful and feel remorse. You may feel uneasy and can’t quite shake the feeling.
Sometimes your conscience will cause you to make restitution if possible or resolve to never do it again. But if not, and you continue to ignore your conscience, eventually you will feel nothing, no sense of right or wrong, no guilt, you’re not even apprehensive of repeating it again and again. You’ve numbed it, no feelings or emotions.
At this point your conscience has become seared, until at some point in time if ever, you chose to let it be your guide. By this time Jimminey Cricket has shrunk to only a whisper.
In the case of my EUM, I seared it. I lied about who I really was, how I felt about things, what I wanted and needed. I did things I have never done before, things that I knew were wrong, period, and choices that were wrong for me. It affected my heart and mind, hardening it.
I made the wrong choices, felt the wrong feelings and did the wrong things.
The voice screamed at me, time and time again. until I began to feel that some choices were not wrong at all. These were physical, emotional and spiritual choices. While I knew what was good, or right, I chose to ignore that voice and did them anyway. The voice became softer and softer until it was almost gone.
I started reading BR and then the voice started coming back again. I feel the shame, regret, remorse, and guilt that I should feel if I want to be the kind of person I wish to be. Someone who is good, kind, does what is right, and is not ashamed or embarrassed to admit it or speak up when something is not right.
While I can’t change what I did, I can change what I do now. I will let Jimminey Cricket blast my ears away. As my oldest daughter tells her children, “Put on your listening ears”. I will be listening to my gut!
Hopeful,
I did the same and had the hole in my soul, that I filled up with food, alcohol, men, etc etc whatever to fill the emptiness inside I was trying to fill up because I had learned to ignore my inner voice. So today, when I want to get a drink( which i haven’t in 28 years) think a donut looks good, or get on POF, or Match.com, looking for an instant ego stroke, I ask myself, what is really going on here? How am I not taking care of myself, that I have the hole in my soul, coming back. And it’s usually that I have not listened to my intuition and did something to please someone else, and I’m feeling empty inside. I’m pretty at peace with myself today, over two months no contact, I have taken my life back. If i don’t get a good feeling inside about something I plan to do. I don’t do it. If I feel confused about something, ( thinking of moving back home) I don’t act on it, just to get rid of the uneasy feeling. I trust that the answer will come. I have been looking into buying a house, and have a good feeling about that. So I am just going to go with the flow right now. And I am trusting my intuition. I know if I let my ego, or my head, get in the way, I know where I end up, in a lot of pain.
OMG Hopefull you sound exactly like me and what I just recently went through. I was involved with a guy at work (strike 1) who was younger than me (strike 2) who lied to me and told me he was divorced (strike 3). At first I thought he was around my age but then when I suspected he was 10 years younger I have to admit I felt flattered and I was physically attracted to him. I have been divorced for 3 years and haven’t dated or had sex and was missing affection so I jumped in feet first and found myself acting completely out of character for me i.e. craving sex, acting like a wild woman, having sex in my office etc. sending erotic messages to him via work email etc. Mu gut and conscience screamed at me and I ignored them. Consequently I suffered from extreme anxiety and stress as I was lying to myself about who I was, what I wanted, what I was feeling, etc. I was in conflict with myself over my choices and actions and I felt so guilty. Even after I found out he was married I still hooked up with him 2 more times for sex because the magnetic pull between us was so strong. But then I was able to dump him go NC thank GOD or I think I would have had a nervous break down from betraying myself. I am now working on myself and getting to know myself again,reestablishing my values and beliefs and just being “me”. I lost myself for a while and I went to a scary place that I never want to go back to again. Now I will speak up when something does not sit right with me and will not be ashamed or embarrassed to voice my beliefs or values. And I am just now getting to point where I can forgive myself for being so stupid and foolish and ashamed for my actions. And I can finally admit to myself and acceptthe fact that all he wanted was sex from me even though he hinted at wanting a relationship in the beginning. It’s hard to face the real facts that someone just used you for sex but what’s even harder to face is why did I allow it? Why didn’t I put up boundaries? Call foul? Recognize red flags etc? What does that say about me? It’s something I am currently working on with a lot of help from these blogs. I have your back Hopefull
My gut is my truth-teller. It is authentic me. I can feel truth physically. I have often had battles with it…telling it that my “shoulds” and my talking and my “reasons” carry more weight.
Last year when I my ex threw a horrible curve ball at me – unexpected and sudden – my “shoulds” just fell away and I was left with a huge amount of pain (in my gut) that I had tried to talk myself out of for years. I felt like I was drowning for months. My counsellor told me to stick with it and that it would ease away – and not to go up into my head but to listen to my voices there. It was a good lesson and I am still learning.
I love my gut. It’s a combination of my knowledge about myself, my insights, values and boundaries all wrapped up in a nice emotional package.
I haven’t listened to my gut in a very long time but I sure am listening to it now.
A previous EUM from 2 years ago has tried walking back into my life expecting me to slip him a piece (he’s now got the message I won’t have a bar of his crap) but over the course of several phone calls my gut started churning. I took a big step back and it took me a little while to work out what set the alarm bells ringing. Apart from giving me an assessment of MY character (yes, it just reinforced MY negative opinion of him) he dropped that phrase ‘I don’t want to see you get hurt’. I know what that one means – big red flag and bail as quick as I can.
I’m paying more and more attention to my gut these days and guess what? I’m feeling a whole lot better about myself and trusting my gut that knows something is ‘wrong’ even if I’m not sure at the time what is actually going on.
I’m trusting myself.
Thankfully, I have been on a low BS diet. After spending Vday w/ my kids and 12 weeks of NC, I wake in the morning to find assclown text. “No I did not lie when I spoke to you.” After a year of him future faking. Then HIM running me down on Christmas Eve,in a grocery store, breaking NC. (I do NOT count this as me breaking NC) telling me “he didn’t know what he wants and he’s efed up in the head” He decides to text me on Valentines day evening. Thankfully, listened to my gut. I Did not break NC. It was nice to know he had nothing better to do on V day, than try to do some lame, lazy text for attention or whatever. Maybe that is a weird “validation?” All I know is that he didn’t apologize or act as if he was wrong in anyway, but he wants me to think he’s not a liar. My gut told me he is a liar. My gut tells me to FLUSH!
So, not only are you lucky and charmed, Lucky_Charms, you have one sexy and magnificent gut there. I would be taping that flush button down so it’s just stuck on repeat. Flush…flush…flush…flushIt could lull you to sleep at night. You could pretend you were on some gorgeous tropical beach…the waves washing too and fro…laughing flirtatiously with the cocktail waiter….at your ex drowning far out at sea…
Oh I can’t believe it LuckyCharms!
Here he is again, returning to the scene of the crime to persuade someone he has patently hurt that a) the crime wasn’t so bad after all, b) he’s a really great guy, and c) there’s something wrong with her and her perception of the crime and of him as assclown.
This is extraordinary. I’m going to exaggerate here, everyone, so don’t read it if you’ve ever been exploited —
but this is the kind of shit that rapists and sex offenders do. If their victim is known to them and they haven’t been reported/caught/etc yet, often they creep around their target afterwards, telling him/her that they’ve got it all wrong, that he’s a good guy really, and that the situation was “just kinda crazy you know?” and how he/she needs to stop thinking of the whole incident as a bad thing, and how he/she needs to shut up and stop telling people what happened because they’re telling it all wrong. And often they take the opportunity that the victim played a role in the whole thing, too. Mitigating the act. Diminishing the crime. Reducing and deflecting the blame. And so on. I don’t want to demean the horror of actual sexual offense, but the behaviour of the free-range offender is often the same after the incident. And here it’s so often played out by someone who may not have broken any laws but who definitely and deliberately hurt someone emotionally, mentally, possibly physically and financially in some cases.
I ask you. Would a burglar return to the house he burgled a week earlier to try to convince the owners that he didn’t actually steal all the things he stole? That they must just be imagining that they once had a television in the corner of the living room. That they only think that their floor safe used to contain £3000, but really it’s been completely empty all along. And that they themselves must have lost or destroyed the solid silver candlesticks they inherited from a great aunt in 1987. The burglar would insist of course, to their faces, that he’s not lying.
Who the hell BEHAVES like that?
Returning to the scene of the crime…..!! Omg that is great. Mine would try the persuading me the crime wasn’t bad but after I nailed him to the cross would actually admit how effed up his behavior was, all the while saying he didn’t mean to hurt me. He called his behavior “weird ways” and would say…well I may have issues but doesn’t everyone? Who behaves like that??? Narcissists, Sociopaths and AC’s!
I told my therapist about my last convo with my exMM AC Narc where he said (all the while crying) that he “would have to live with the guilt for the rest of his life for leaving behind the person responsible for saving his marriage”. My therapists response – ‘who the hell says that!’ It was so outrageous to her that she dropped her usual indifferent demeanor. (For anyone not familiar with my story, I made him fess up to his wife by threatening to expose him with his text messages and if he wanted any hope of saving his marriage it’d better be him telling her and not me)
Oh, the ‘leaving behind’ was in reference to them being in counselling and intimating to me that he was going to be far better off out of this than I was. Nope, don’t agree, I get to gain so much from this site, my therapist and my freedom from his character disorder to get leaps ahead of his ‘game’. I see that statement as his projection and lack of touch with reality that got him into his pile of shit to begin with. He underestimated me and thought of me as far more insecure than I truly was. Even in the face of truth he still tried to prey on what he percieved as my insecurities to devalue me. What he failed to recognize (which was his ultimate downfall and achilles heal) is that I am stronger and smarter and more secure than he can see. I didn’t come out of the situation unscaithed, because I did get into the relationshit with him due to a certain amount of self doubt and lack of self care, plus it was also a time where I was being buffetted around a bit by other AC’s in my life, so his sheep’s clothing was my soft place to land, so I thought, and I also was being lazy and not taking time out to reflect on my gut and even outright telling it to shut up because I wanted to believe. Anyhoo, lesson learned, BS detector tuned up a notch, taking better care of myself and learning to recon with reality…and trusting my gut
Jewells “, I get to gain so much from this site, my therapist and my freedom from his character disorder to get leaps ahead of his ‘game’. Amen
Although it is shocking to be caught in the web of a disordered person it truly is a life learning experience that changes you forever. The reason they underestimate you is that Narcs truly feel superior to anyone they are involved with. I was the first person to abandon my Narc and boy did he make it hard to escape. They operate on fear and ego and how dare you challenge their ego. Drew me back into his malicious web numerous times but I thank God I escaped and you should too. If you didn’t give him that last ultimatum you would still be caught in the web. Now he is predictably playing the pity card and feigning guilt. The only mistake we made is believing in the goodness of humans who never had our best interests at heart.
Amen to you too Beth, I feel the same way. My ultimatum just burst forth when the penny dropped during a time when he was attempting to ‘manage’ me. I second guessed myself later when I actually thought about it, thought myself being mean etc, but have come to see it for what it was in the light of BR; I was protecting myself from the cockroach by setting events in motion to get him out of my life. Since I’ve learned that these guys have the tenacity of a cockroach after a nuclear blast, it really was the most efficient way of eliminating him. I may not have found BR with him continually dipping his toe in my life, I was so easily led by his ‘pity me’ and ‘I’m so guilty’ crap, it may have dragged on indefinitely if I hadn’t pulled the rip cord. It worked out for the best all round, I do believe their marriage was/is in trouble so counselling and him being exposed fully can only start the process properly and they can resolve their situation one way or another and stop the madness they are in, and I got away from his web and learned a lot about myself and what I need to do to find the relationship that I truly crave. And yup, the most distressing thing in the end was that I believed in him albeit naively, but I’m not that woman anymore!
Cockroach!!! lol That’s just what they are. Your second guessing coment brought back something that happened in the beginning of my relationship. I remember my ex giving me some bs story once (related to disappearing for 3 days) and I said “wow you really are well rehearsed” He was so mad!! He said those words intimated he was lying. I said if the shoe fits..wear it. lol Then the intimidation… He said if that’s how you feel maybe we should stop this. I said great idea! bye!!! and slammed the phone down. My second guessing started shortly after. They confuse you and it is the nature of the beast. I held firm as it was the beginning of the relationship but I did break when he came back like a lamb. Talk about red flags I ignored!! Ughhh
Yeah, it’s like they have no shame really, they’ll do ANYTHING to secure, gain or regain power, to win. The MM AC Narc I was involved with never used anger for control, always pity and tears, probably learned early on that this was the easiest quietest way to manipulate women. Looking back I see the flags, I just did’t know what they meant. Like on our first day together after he told me he was actually married (in a drama filled tearful way), he got on his knees and cried and begged me to wait for him… Poor wee lambie, I was so enamoured by this vulnerable display of emotion and how could I possibly hurt him by denying his request? and there were many more instances of his ‘free emotional expression’ of ‘how strongly he felt for me’. GAWD, I was soooo gullible he must’ve thought he hit the jackpot, BUT now I know better.
Oh and how that relates to listening to my gut? If my empathy/sympathy buttons weren’t being wholeheartedly stabbed at, I may have been able to hear the quiet voice of my gut. But when you have a ‘drama king’ in front of you making it all about him, it’s really hard to listen to what is going on inside of you. In future, I will endeavor to be sure I don’t let myself get bowled over again, to be sure I give myself quiet time to reflect on what is actually going on and checking in with my gut.
It’s a known fact Narcs gravitate to empaths. My buttons were constantly pushed by a damn drama King too although I prefer your cockroach word lol It truly is all about them unless they are using their energy to manipulate, persuade, and con you into buying their sad story. whoa is me is their motto especially when you play hard ball with them.
Indeed. Only people who are pathological liars ever feel the need to insist, totally unprompted and often without context, that “I haven’t lied to you.”
Honest genuine people who have no hidden agendas or ulterior motives and nothing to cover up NEVER make a statement of truth and then blurt out “I’m not lying!”. That would make no sense. Truth and lies require different areas of the brain to operate, and when someone says something that’s a lie, they often follow it with a ‘disclaimer’ chaser because that deceptive area of the brain is still switched on.
Which sounds true and which sounds like a lie?
– I’m late because I locked myself out of the house this morning! It took me half an hour to get the spare key from my cousin. What an idiot I am. Sorry I’m late.
– I’m late because I locked myself out of the house this morning! I swear to god I’m not lying. It took me half an hour to get the spare key from my cousin. Sorry I’m such an idiot but I haven’t lied to you.
They keep referencing ‘deceit’ because ‘deceit’ is exactly where their thoughts are at the time.
They say sociopaths and others with personality disorders do their best to mimic emotions — appearing to feel ‘sorry’ and trying to guess when an apology is supposed to be required (because frankly they have no idea when that might ever be) — but they don’t always get it right. Sometimes it seems a bit ‘off’ to normal people — too much, too little, too early, too late, not at all, and it’s not put into the right context because they have no idea what you might be feeling at any given time. All they know is that they need to stop you from thinking ‘hmm he’s lying’, so that’s why they’re always keen to rush too early to ‘counter’ that reaction.
Stupid, aren’t they. They think that by saying they’re not lying we’ll actually believe they’re not lying.
Wow Griz, love that point, so true. My exMM Narc AC cried and cried and kept saying he was so sorry – tho never actually said what for. Then told me that he only lied to me as much as he was in denial to himself. ‘the lies I told you were the lies I told myself’. I guess the lies by omission were what you chose not to think about either…he told me that a year ago they’d decided that they were over, but staying for the kid’s sake (classic MM lie). When I asked if they were sleeping in seperate rooms – he agreed, so I guess if he didn’t actually ‘say’ they slept in different rooms but just agreed to my question, that’s not really lying? When I occasionally asked a question regarding his impending separation, or anything about how his wife feels about the whole situation, he diverted my attention to something else and never actually responded to the question at hand…I guess that wasn’t lying either because the question was ignored…
But according to him, he only lied in so much as he lied to himself. Hardly. They were all lies in different forms so that he could get what he wanted and not take responsibility for his actions. If he was a decent person, our last conversation would have gone more like: ‘I’m sorry I lied to and decieved you, I hope one day you will forgive me’. End of. Instead, I got drama filled bawling baby saying ‘I’m soooo soooooowwwrrrryyyyyy (repeat ad nauseum), I’m scum on the bottom of your shoe!, but hey I’ve kept your info despite being told by my wife and counsellor to cut ties with you, do you want me to let you know how the counselling is going with my wife?’
PUKE
I’ve gotten really into true crime/police procedural shows, like “Solved” and “Real Interrogations.”
Real interrogations is cool because you can start to get good at telling when someone is lying.
They use a lot of words like “actually” and “truthfully” and “to tell you the truth” and they also say “I would never do that!”
The witnesses or interviewees who knew the victim or whatever but who did not commit the crime simply don’t say those things.
They also (the liars) confidently set forth their story, but when pressed for a detail they hadn’t planned for (exact time, what movie theater was it etc.) they look theatrically perplexed and buy time by saying “Let me think, I want to be really accurate for you” or “Hmmmm, let me see, well we were over here so maybe that was half an hour?”
The fascinating ones for me are the vehement, tearful deniers. “I did not kill her; I need you to catch that animal!” Then, later, when they do confess, it’s totally surreal to look back on their outrage at having been accused and fake grief.
How interesting! I wish I could see those programmes.
Sounds like a good demonstration of how your gut is already making you feel uneasy before your conscious mind can actually pick apart what’s going on.
Love your gut, girls!
Here’s one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf7ThDQmAEI
This is so true.
The MM said, very near the beginning “we will always be honest with each other”. It was a strange out of the blue remark, which made my guts twist a little. I couldn’t quite articulate to myself WHY he would say that. But of course it reflected some thought process of his relating to avoiding being truthful with me. However, quelle surprise, he’s a married cheater, (oh yeah but planning to leave in a couple of years…right..) so what else would he be doing but lying through his teeth at every opportunity?
Beth,
People who don’t take responsibility.
Its difficult, even for these creeps, to truly see who they are, as then they would have to acknowledge that they are not good people- It’s much easier to live in the land of denial. I have to say the same applies to us. I mean, isn’t it easier to return to the same shit behavior, than recognize what brought us to that point. It’s easier to be the doormat, then make positive change.
Alison My ex really liked think he was decent and I wanted to believe it too. He is in total denial about how his Narc behavior affects people that dare to get close to him. Yes much easier to return like an addict for that next high and to temporarily feel good. I think of it as the toughest battle of my life but yes…it does lead to positive changes that I have experienced since NC. I am resolved to never go back to the web of emotional manipulation again.
Grielzda, The burglars say that to the cops! Same personality – narcissist, antisocial personality disorder.
Hi all,
Hope you’ll forgive me for spending a lot of time on this particular issue, but it’s kind of in my craw and because it fits in the category of
“Have I felt this way before? If yes, what was happening then? Familiarity with a previously shady situation is a code red alert – it’s repeating something that you shouldn’t be.
I’m chewing on it a bit more. Today I got *another* casual invite/”see you there” to ex-new-roommate’s party tonight, to which ex-new-roommate did not invite me. Let me call him XNR for short. I was like, look, people who met me at XNR’s gathering expect me to be there; I’m clearly getting dissed. Who cares, right, if he’s an ass? Why feel rejected by someone I don’t particularly like? These feelings are indeed similar to the feelings I had around first meeting the ex-AC.
People seem to like XNR. He assembles people at his place and is just as new to this town as I am, yet I still feel shy about having people over. Yet when I think about the conversations I have had one-on-one with XNR, and the sneering tone and weirdness, I’m reminded of the same weirdness that came up very early with exAC.
Today I remembered how in conversation with XNR’s roommate (nice girl) about being-hit-on-by-older-men, she opened up about father figures and stepfathers abusing her. We spoke a bit about her mom not “noticing” and I told her about the ways that the exAC had no problem exposing himself (it’s the cabin! it’s skinny dipping!) in front of an eleven-year-old girl and the weird ways he spoke about another teen he used to “babysit” when he was in his forties … I said I never thought I’d be in that position of having an awful gut feeling about someone (i.e. that he could have a pedophilic streak) and so wanting to not believe it. Who wants to believe the man you’re seeing is capable of that? I’d said, so you ignore your gut feelings and tell yourself you’re overreacting.
This is the conversation to which XNR got defensive, angry and said we were judging all men too harshly, etc.
All this to say that the weird gut feeling I had/have about XNR – there’s no words for it. And thank you, Tinkerbell, for the advice not to describe myself in the way I imagine he thinks of me. For the sake of this post, I’ll repeat that it felt like he hated my black-feminist-self-righteousness. I wrote earlier that when I’ve sensed that from someone, I’ve tried to ignore/overcome/pretend otherwise: because of what I guess I believed the situation said about ME.
So: while it takes a long time to come to it, I’m thinking today that the weird feeling I had when I first met exAC eventually had me knowing he was a psychologically aggressive jerk and wondering if he was a paedo.
I know very little, really, about XNR but maybe it’s because some old feelings/experiences are stirred up that I feel … stirred up.
You know how we talk about wanting to right old wrongs? Does it make sense to say that sometimes I feel like the molested little girl in me keeps thinking she can just love/reason/talk to the kind of guys that do that kind of thing? And that the kind of guy who wants a docile-servant-wife-in-kitchen-who-obeys-him: he always hates me, it’s my dad who I wish loved me hating me all over again, it’s someone I want to win over, all over again?
The gut feeling of contact with that misogynist energy makes me kind of sick, and instead of just moving away from the source, I want to understand it, or convince it, know that I can have an effect on it?
Okay, I think I’ve broken it down a bit. Hatred is heartbreaking. The child in me always wanted to not be the object of hatred. She tried to pretend/ignore that she was. She was. I may well be (on a nice, polite, adult scale) now. It makes you sick to your gut, right?
This little-bit-sick re XNR is how it feels when it’s time to just step away. It’s not just-a-little-bit-uneasy-therefore-I-should ignore and try to make friends out of such a situation.
As an adult I need to learn to trust that and sadly move away from those who hate women who speak, or who just don’t like me. It’s the sadness I’m trying to avoid. It IS heartbreaking.
I’m sure I’ll get to the point where I stay strong and just know I don’t like them. I know I’ve given a bunch of energy to this situation but I guess I just had a knot of old stuff to work out.
Time for a nice bath, glass of wine and more Zadie Smith.
Aw Magnolia, I know this will sound really trite but it doesn’t matter what he thinks. I recall a line from a Woody Allen film that made me laugh, “I don’t know why there were nazis, don’t ask me. I don’t know how a tin opener works!” There is evil in the world but you can’t think about it all the time and we can only do so much.
I think you should keep it distant and barely polite. We can’t change the world one AC at a time. Unless he is a present danger to you or a loved one, ignore him. He had his views before he met you, and he will continue to have them.
This man has nothing to do with you, fortunately, and doesn’t deserve even your negative attention.
And popularity doesn’t say much about a person. Even the people who seem to like them probably wouldn’t piss on them if they were on fire.
Ha, ha grace. I still love Woody Allen’s early humour.
Strangely enough it was exactly the existence of “evil in the world” that this person insisted we must deny and try to understand.
My imperfectly-made point was indeed that the energy of Bad-Values-Fit should immediately mean His Opinion Doesn’t Matter for me. Even though I get that intellectually, I was/am still chewing on it emotionally.
I was working on some fiction tonight and realized that I have for years been trying to understand one of my baddie characters. (Conventional wisdom is that writers need to know their characters’ motivations.) I said to myself, you know, in real life with these dudes, when I don’t like them, the feeling isn’t one of understanding them, it’s one of totally NOT getting how anyone could behave in whatever way.
Maybe my baddest-baddie characters will only work when I stop analyzing and allow them to be as impenetrable and morally foreign as I experience some people in real life. Maybe I’ve been trying to put deep, complex motivations on the eqivalent of Tucker Max – when the reason Tucker Maxes exist is because some people don’t do deep or complex!
Hope your dental stuff is all healed up, grace …
Magnolia, BRAVO, I love watching you work through your issues on here. It is so inspiring, real and done in such an honest way that it makes me feel its possible for me to do as well. I read a post of yours a few days back where you were really down on your new living/city, making friends arrangement and I totally understood the way you felt. Sometimes when I’m making progress to new healthier self and I get push back from others, it makes me feel that I’m all alone in the world of emotional healthiness and I get really down. So I just wanted to say thank you for being brave enough to share what you feel.
Yeah, I’m done with the misogynist crap myself. I admit I’ve been confused by this my whole life. Coming to recognize that my father was EUM AC Misog, I think I’ve migrated to these types in some form or another up till now. I can’t fix them, why do I bother trying to understand them and get along or overlook it in the name of ‘friendship’ or love? No more. I’ve even confronted a person who I thought of as a friend for many years, but realized I actually don’t like. I rented his basement crappy apartment for 3 years, left over two years ago, a couple of months ago he started telling everyone that he was my ‘benefactor’ for ‘letting me stay’ there. I said – ‘I paid rent’, his response was – ‘well you should see the bills, it makes a huge difference when another person lives in the house, so what I saw in rent was all going to bills’. I let it slide at the time, but then it got back to me that someone at work said that they didn’t trust me, and I believe it has to do with how this ‘friend’ speaks of me (I work with him also). I know with women, his attitude is that they all are out to ‘take advantage’ of men, and that’s the picture he is trying to paint of me. I confronted him (but not in a good way in retrospect due to a Natalie post after the fact) by text asking him why I was singled out as being benefacted when all the Men who rented the apt before me paid the same rent as I did were not talked about in the same manner. Response? *crickets*. I have come to realize that I allowed too much crap to go on in that ‘friendship’, that he will talk shite about women regardless (even make up shite to fit his beliefs), I spent too many years confronting his crap and he will never change. I am done with these bozos in my life from now on. Thanks to BR, I know what I’m looking at, know what futile arrangements are, and that some people need just be left to live their lives without you cause they’re determined to make a muck of things no matter how you try, cause they won’t try.
ah zadie smith I love her. The Autograph Man (?) one was awesome, especially her loving description of huge American breakfast buffets.
this really hit home “The gut feeling of contact with that misogynist energy makes me kind of sick, and instead of just moving away from the source, I want to understand it, or convince it, know that I can have an effect on it?”
I don’t know if I ever really want to have an effect on it, but I find myself being civil to men who I can tell hate women; no matter how ignorant they act, I just automatically go on autopilot civil. It gets me really angry at myself! A few weeks ago this stupid man was acting like a lout at a bar that I was at, and he was so insulting, with his gross come-ons and yet at the end of the evening I got suckered into shaking his hand because everyone else was and I did not want to be ‘rude”: augh!
Magnolia, dear, you’re obsessing with an ass and his jerky behaviour. He’s acting like that because he’s an ass, not because there’s something wrong with you. Period. Wow, he’s so popular, so was Ted Bundy. Better to be shy, than to be an ass.
If you like his roommate, why don’t you invite her over to your place, without the asshole attached?
Our gut helps remind us of past experiences. I remember feeling several years ago that there where other men. And that her EU had to do with her inability to focus on one person. After a breakup and NC she reached out to apolize, cried, promised, admitted and explained. Swore to prove her commitment.
A few months into it, although certainly more engaged, something didn’t feel right. I second guessed my gut and convinced myself that it was just my insecurities from the past because she was saying what I thought was progressively more than in the past. But slowly things began not to make sense. Constantly texting, not allowing me to participate in her social online circle, when I asked or question things she would say if I didn’t trust her to just leave. There was a pattern to us seeing each other. Eventually as Natalie says we end up going down a slippery slope, I saw her phone and it revealed not only men from her past that should have been gone, but memberships to adult dating sites, flirting with men from social sites, searching for lost loves and a recent heart felt email to the love of her life that I never knew existed. My world crumbled to see all that madness. I gave so much to this woman and her children, I helped her so very much financially. I don’t know why I didn’t run, I was in disbelief. I still am. In the end she called me a creep for going through her things, and that she doesn’t ever want to hear from me because I broke a serious boundary. I did, I’m not sure I would have ever found out any other way. My gut was right based on past behaviors. That should have been enough, but I was paralyzed by analysis. I broke boundaries? Sure but did you not break several common sense ones? How about just common desency? I’m not even sure where to start to grasp and make sense of this all. I shouldn’t have done what I did. But the more my gut said something wasn’t right the more she would counter it by saying its just in my head. I feel so used and humiliated. And to add insult to injury I’m hung up on her calling me a creep and that I was sick.
Free don’t beat yourself up over this girl or going through her phone. I dated a guy who exhibited the same behaviors you mention in her. He kept his phone locked with a password so I never had a chance to look at it but my gut told me what was going on. Trust me if I had been able to look at his phone I would have. You are not a creep or sick as she states, she is the creep. Your only mistake was not listening to your gut instincts or common sense, that is all, she got what she deserved.
Ditto Free, she’s going with the ‘best defense is an offense’ guidline. She’s projecting on to you so that she won’t take responsibility for the reality. She lied to you, strung you along, cheated… and when you find the proof, that somehow magically made you the bad guy – it’s a diversion to take the attention off why you felt the need to look at her phone in the first place. It’s all BS. If I were in her shoes, I would do the same thing. Luckily, I’m not a lying cheating cow with a personality disorder, SO I DON`T HAVE TO.
Sorry if I offended any cows…
Free,
I have done the same,I snooped, I called family members I talked to friends, that he keep me isolated from.
I needed to get to the truth no matter what it was. I had the fight going on between what my intuition was telling me, which was based on AC’s actions, the secret texts, the constant being on the internet, the ex-wife being around, etc, etc, in short, HIS BEHAVIORS, versus what he was GIVING ME LIP SERVICE, – I love you, there is no one else, you are a psycho, you are delusional, (Two of his favorites) you are the cheater, on and on, was inconsistent. Even when he was faced with the facts, I still was the sick one, the crazy one.
I too, got hung up on wanting him to finally say, ” oh ok, you finally caught me, all the stuff you say is right, I have been screwing you over and taking advantage of you, because I am insecure, afraid to stand on my own two feet, and support myself, I cheated, I’m not over my ex wife, you aren’t crazy, you are a good person” IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. As I will never get it from my father, who has been dead for twenty years.
SO I have to reparent myself. And know that I am vulnerable to people that trigger the same feelings I used to feel when I was a kid, and seemed to try to get that acceptance, that I never received, from my partners. I need to do it for myself.
Free, I did the same thing with an ex. My gut was telling me something wasn’t right…but he kept on telling me I was just being paranoid, he would never cheat blah blah blah. One day my gut was on hyper-alert and I went to his house, confronted him, and grabbed his cell phone that he was always so protective of. I ran with him chasing me in hot pursuit. I got to my car, locked it and took off. Found all the proof there, that there was indeed others. He called the police on me for taking his phone. Okay yeah, not my proudest moment, but honestly if I didn’t, I would be going crazy with doubt and being confused with his stories that just didn’t add up. He tried to “gaslight” me with his behavior and I put an end to it (even though he did try to come back!) Don’t beat yourself up. That woman just is turning it around on you because she got caught. That’s what bad people do to good people. That’s why bullies get away with things. Stand your ground, don’t let her make you feel bad about yourself. You’re a good person. Understand that.
I’m with the others, Free — sometimes when we know we’re being scammed, but they’re using lies and obfuscation to keep us in line and continue play, we have no choice but to commit a ‘personal foul’ to stop the game.
Of course she’s angry that you discovered her scam and would only ever blame you, never herself. You were onto a loser from the start you see — whether you uncovered the machinations or she secured another target and dumped you, you were always going to end up with the shit end of the stick.
People like her, in the end, always alienate everyone they’ve ever known because they don’t value anyone.
My entire life has been at an enforced dead standstill for two years now & I’m STILL not clear on what my gut says as to the way forward. The solution? Tend to each day as best I can, & keep STANDING STILL, until the way BECOMES clear… A practise in patience, faith, restraint, self control & heeding input, at times, from others. None of which I find easy. ALL of which are neccessary. Sigh.
Speaking of listening to my gut, exMM contacted me via work email (which I can’t block) back in November about this incredible project. I responded with one line: “Sounds cool”. The more I thought about it, I realized he couldn’t be engineering this project. It was way above our pay grade. I wasn’t born with the ability to trust my gut but this sounded too fishy even for me!
Come to find out, the project, a major fossil exhibit at a local museum came to fruition sans him and sans me! Come to find out, he spoke with somebody who knew somebody who was arranging the exhibit. I bought tics for me and my daughter and we had a fabulous time looking at 3.9 million year old bones and listening to the real guy who arranged the exhibit and dug up real bones. I knew the exMM was the party pooper. He has such an incredibly inflated sense of himself. It was difficult to see through that at first. This time, I was on my guard and listened to reality. What a arse! This time my head knew before my gut and both my head and my gut said no frigging way in hell.
Is it something these guys drink in the morning that makes them so full of themselves? May I have some, please?
Sometimes my gut has a voice. I remember one time years ago when I was at my Fav jazz bar. A handsome guy who could have been on cover of GQ kept pursuing me and wanted to leave that bar and get food at next place. I said no a few times and he persisted.
A voice in my head screamed to me “This guy’s trouble!”. I ignored the voice, had food with him- drove safely in separate cars, and started dating him., and of course he immediately started lying and seeing other women – instead of getting to really know me or progress in a real relationship. It drove me nuts for a couple weeks but I kept busy with college and friends. Funny that when I was completely over him he tried to get me back. I had no feelings for him and he was the one who left rejected.
I do now try to listen to my gut and inner voice and my intuition etc. Older & wiser. , still single, and not desperate, not lonely and not a doormat for EUMs.!
Thanks Natalie and friends here!
Hi Shyner,
That was very inconsiderate of him. It’s amazing the amount of disrespect these people dish out! Hope you are feeling way better now.
Ignoring my gut has given me nothing but misery. Oh why oh why won’t I listen. I’m exhausted. I unhappy and I am lonely. My gut says mourn the loss of you marriage, be good to yourself, you deserve better than the ex-ass clown and be glad he’s gone but my head says go date..…
Tonight my gut has been screaming to me about why I am I so desperate to date when I made a vow that I would to date till June13. The answer, I’m lonely. After a 14 year marriage that lacked emotional and physical intimacy, I’m desperate for ANY companionship. I’m really not got at making friends so I lack that too..I’m lonely there as well. Lately I’ve been so lonely that all a guy has to do is smile at me and I’m pick wedding china in my head. What is wrong with me? How do I get over this desperation? How do I stop wanting someone, anyone so badly? Am I so bad that no one will ever love me?
Confused
I feel for you, this is very much my situation and I too am not so great at making friends. What I have done is join some activity groups – a book group (mostly women) and a women only running group. And I have persisted with it because joining new things isn’t always comfortable for the first wee while. I wouldnt say I’ve met soulmates but I now have a nice time at these things and things to look forward to. My advice would be to start small. If you’re feeling vulnerable and desperate to date, thats a recipe for more hurt.
I sometimes feel like that, but dating is out of the question as my separated husband is still in the house:( Our lawyers trying to sort things out.
Mymble. Well look at you; running and reading and not accidentally stabbing your separated but still resident husband just to hurry the process along a bit. You’re like the sexy poster child for people just getting on with shit. I love your quiet and self-assured dignity.
I can’t understand why you say you’re not so great at making friends. If the way you treat yourself is anything to go by, people should be stampeding through your front door like it’s opening time at a major department store at the post christmas sale.
(Just to be safe, I would check to see what’s on the other side of the door first every time you step out).
Confused,
You need to fill other areas of your life with activities: volunteering, classes, Meetups etc….. You need to get busy!!!!
If you are so dependent on another for your happiness, the relationship will not work, as it is a lot of responsibility to the other partner, and is very draining. I know that I would quickly lose interest in someone who did not have a life or interests outside of me.
Confused
I know lonely sucks but please dont go accepting treatment of that isnt right . At xmas my dad had a stroke and i was so upset low etc i nearly and i mean nearly fell head first into another shit situtation because i wanted comfort and company . I pulled myself out, unless its a real geniune rlship you wont find warmth or affection there . Its just a act. My dad recovered and spending more time with him and me mam , made me realises where true love is . Ive spent to long worrying , thinking that i should be in a rlship , not anymore . Its nice to be at a calm point in life . My ex hubby come round to get kids and he moaned at me for having a layin on sats , its only day i get to do it . And i thought still trying to control me , ill layin if i want , , my gut feeling with him for all thise years a subtle form of mental bullying and gut said resist and i didnt , cost me my self confidence . Hope you get through it ,. Your not lonely not if you dont want to be . Look at it as a state of mind . Get out there 🙂 and find good people to mix with . Thats just what i did 🙂
Thanks Mymble & Tired.
You are both absolutely right. No dating for me until..well my slef esteem is better and I can live my life without feeling lonely. 🙂
I also found Nat’s post on “Dating whn you’re lonely”. Heaven help me but this blog is my saviour. I’m so glad that I found this site and you wonderful ladies. Hugs!
argh, right on time nat. a strange girl started chatting to me on the train last night and i figured this tiny girl was harmless , and i am very different looking from people around here so people always randomly talk to me cos i am exotic.she was very forward wanting to hear about my country and work and wanting to meet for coffee when i had literally just met her.so despite the fact that my gut was screaming that something was off with her i totally gave her my number against every fibre of my being just to be rid of her, she even called it to make sure i hadn’t given her a fake one! she has been texting me non-stop all night very rambly messages. think she is mentally ill which is sad but i ignored my gut instinct to get far away from her. she could have been a serial killer and i would probably have invited her into my house and handed he the knife she would use to cut my body into small pieces.sigh… still learning to look out for numero uno first and not be so goddamn nice to strangers. i aint the friendliness patron saint of the universe.
Kookie I have had the same problem. I am naturally friendly and can start a conversation with anyone. It works for me professionally but personally has gotten me in trouble a few times. Once when I was shopping with my last AC, a guy was demonstrating trash bags for lawn clippings. He asked us both did we want to buy them, I said no I don’t do my own lawn work. The AC said nothing and we kept on walking. The guy proceeds to follow us the next two aisles asking me in a weird way did I want to buy the bags. I don’t know what his problem was, I tried to be polite but he just wouldn’t let up. Needless to say the AC blamed it on me for being too nice, but that’s another story. I used to think if a person directed their craziness at me that I somehow caused it, no these people just use friendliness as an opening. Since being friendly works to my advantage 95% of the time, I’m not going to stop being that way I’m just going to learn to shut the crazy ones down faster.
Oh god similar thing happened to me the other night. I was out at a club with my gay friends and this guy came up and introduced himself and said he was straight and liked the relaxed nature of gay clubs. I just go there to dance with my friends so that was fine, just had a little chat with him, trying to keep it brief and not encourage him, just being pleasant at the most. Gut feeling was he’s about to get sleazy… and then sure enough he started going on about how he had been watching me all night. I made my excuse then left him. Until later when I ran into him in the unisex toilets (!!) and he said he was “going to get a hug by the end of the night”! I know I am not going to meet someone in a club, precisely my point, I just go there to dance and get away from sleazy AC straight guys who I thought would hang out in straight clubs. I think now I know myself better and am living more authentically I can just laugh at these situations. I trust my gut so much more and can confidently weed these losers out. It has taken some time and hard work though, not too get wrapped up in the attention and immediate highs. But coming here and reading Natalie’s wise words regularly has sunk in so much more than I ever thought possible. In the words of The Shapeshifters “I’m a different person!”
Aaah, the gut feeling! 🙂 It’s true that if there is a feeling of discomfort, there must be some (legitimate or illegitimate) reason. However, there could be a case of hyperactive immagination, thoughts transmitted by other people through assumptions or plain ‘ole gossip, or bad memories of a similar situation in the past (often involving a different relationship). These things have applied to me recently. I believe it’s important to find some intimacy with yourself (risking to sound like a yoga guru 😛 ). Take time to yourself to process your thoughts and find inner peace. Then, you need to slow your roll whichever your situation is, but without turning into a private investigator, and, in the end, only act upon concrete evidence when it is presented. If a longer period of time goes by and you see nothing *concrete* that confirms your fears, then probably you have nothing to worry about.
Sandra not so. I once had a guy say something to me that was to an outsider benign, but my alarms went off screaming. Since all his friends thought he was a good guy, I ignored my alarms and went out with him anyway. I never saw anything concrete but based on his behavior I had a strong feeling that something wasn’t right about him and stopped seeing him. I still to this day think that there is a possibility that he is a child molester. I have no concrete proof whatsoever and I’ve never felt that about anyone else.
I avoided a shady encounter as I trusted myself. This guy I was interested in blew real hot for a time and then cooled when any new shiny light passed by and then get hot again. I thought it was me and in a way it was. I missed these cues initially as I’d been so used to minimising my own importance and had learnt to negate what I saw and felt. I finally decided to test out detachment. It taught me so much about myself and this person’s behaviour. He was not for me.
Going against the grain was hard but now I am so grateful that I have.
As a side note I am regularly informed by him about how happy he now is. Good for him and great for me as I would have been very unhappy if I unconciously went back into the same relationship funk.
In the fetus, the gut and brain develop from the same “stuff” (technical term, ha). So I think you can actually be born with a gut instinct. Often I have felt physical discomfort in my gut, even IBS, in times of trouble. When the MM overstepped the mark, I felt like a stone of doom was dropping through my gut. It was a very strong reaction and far louder than the fantasising. Could have saved myself a few months of trouble if I’d listened to it.
Grace, I think if we did a quick poll of BR ladies, we’d find that IBS and gut issues are pretty common. I know any time I get emotionally churned up, my insides do too. Ew. Or if I feel as if I don’t have any control in a situation, my body tries to *ahem* hang onto things, shall we say. I can tell the state of my subconscious by what the plumbing is doing. Revolting, sure. But more accurate and convenient than tea leaves.
I went on a date last night and got a strange feeling in my gut. Thinking about Nat’s post I tried to tune into what was happening a bit more closely (I was on wine #2). Turns out it was just wind (damn you, pan-fried pequillo peppers). Dude is getting a second go.
Yes, after I recognized that I had a gut, I started thinking of it as a ‘party pooper’. As soon as I would start having fun with a new guy, that gut feeling would rear its ugly head and ruin my fun. And it seemed to happen with everyone I dated. Most times I ignored it, or let it beat me down. But my last episode with a guy I was interested in, I stood back and waited for the story to unfold on him without ever having to get involved. When I first met him he told me something that denoted he had an issue but he was very clean cut, nice and I met him at church. I had the opportunity to see him on a weekly basis after that, his story slowly unfolded and it was not good. And it is a good thing because I already have a reputation of dating messed up guys at church with the last two I dated.
YES Paula! ‘I don’t want to see you get hurt’ is code for ‘I know I am going to behave dishonorably & HURT YOU so if you go any further with this, it’s ON YOU because I’ve now WARNED YOU of what lies ahead!’ IMMEDIATE FLUSH for anyone banging out this baloney!!!!
LOVE this post!! Whenever I have listened to my gut and bailed out of a situation as a result, I have NEVER regretted it. On the other hand, whenever I have ignored my gut, it has always ended in heartache. This has applied to both friendships and romantic relationships. If I get a bad feeling about someone, I no longer second guess myself. I take action. Example, I opened my home to someone whom I thought was nicer than she really was. Prior to her moving in, I had a very strong feeling of dread for no apparent reason. After she moved in, she unfolded and showed herself to be a manipulative user. I sat her down and made it clear that she was no longer welcome in my home anymore. After she moved out, she tried to remain on friendly terms with me so that she could continue receiving mail at my house! I ignored her texts asking to get together, and went down to the local post office to stop her mail from coming to my house. When she realized that she could not use me, she left me alone. People can only disrespect you if you let them. Don’t let them!
Hopeful, you are right. You cannot change the past, none of us can, but you CAN use the lessons you learn from it to propel you forward into becoming, who you most desire to be. You are doing this already. Forgive & be gentle with yourself. A new way of being & life awaits & I promise, it WILL be so much better, if you stay the course. Hugs. T x
Shyner, is this some sort of bizarre F grade movie script? This guy is SUCH a TOSSER I just puked! NC all the way for you or we will all sanction you to the BR looney bin!!!! 😉
In addition to listening to my gut, I now talk less and observe more. I am an ESFP and am often able to read people’s facial expressions, body language, as well as pick up on their feelings. I listen to what they say, and observe what they do. Now here’s the tricky part: Sometimes what they say and do match, but I may still get a sense of something not being quite right. I use to down play that feeling thinking that I was overreacting and being too sensitive (ESFP’s are supposed to be sensitive!!) not realizing that I had the gift of insight! Not anymore!! If I am getting to know someone and both their words and actions match, but my intuition still tells me that something is off, I am gone! No questions asked!
Ahahaha Gina! I’m an ENFP and an Enneagram type 7 so, suffice it to say, listening is not exactly my *strong* point. 😉 But I DO think that it is SO important for gathering “intelligence” for your gut.
Incidentally, a good friend of mine is ESFP and we go along like peas and carrots. :)We definitely get the party started and the energy flowing wherever we are, haha.
I did the test and am ENFJ. Will have to read up on what this really means now!
Somebody mentioned Extra sensory in anotehr context. It reminded me that when I was with the ex narc, just around the tippin point of when I started to realize something wasn’t right, I went to see a clairvoyant “for fun”. We were away on a weekend break at a seaside resort, and a very well known clairvoyant was there. She saw ex N for maybe 2 seconds as I came in, and he didn’t say a word. Amongst other stuff she said that I won’t bore you with, she also said “That man you were with, you haven’t been with him very long (true) and you won’t have a future with him. There are dark things about him that you do not know.”
Spooky!
Hey Revs!!
If I was one of the Golden Girls, I’d definitely be Rose!! Ha! Ha! I doubel checked the personality test that I took a year or so ago, and I, too, am an ENFP not an ESFP! DUH!!
Woooohooo!! Another ENFP in the house!!! Incidentally, us ENFPs are supposed to be scarily good at reading people quickly. WTF happened to us with our ACs, Gina?! 🙂 We must’ve momentarily disabled the “fire alarms” ourselves! Ha!
Wow! This reminds me of a book Oprah introduced a long time ago “The Gift of Fear” by Gavin DeBecker. It dealt with trusting your gut to avoid violent situations. Strangely, I just read an article about trusting your gut to pick a partner and I believe Natalie, you could write THE book on this subject and it would shoot to number 1! Anyhow, the point being that the inner voice you hear is real and it’s usually right! I think often we second guess ourselves because we don’t want to be wrong about someone we hardly know. We are taught not to profile, or prejudge people. I went on a date recently and the guy was giving me all the right signs, eyes sparkling-big wide open smile, leaning in to speak, all the “stuff” we hear that’s supposed to mean great body language. Ten minutes later, he begins flirting with the waitress! What’s funny is that she just looked at him like what the hell?! She was about 20 years younger than the two of us and in that moment I realized, he’s gonna be difficult. Now, my sister said, “Oh no, you got his motor running and men get a bit over-confident and act like asses sometimes, it means nothing.” She was wrong, he later emailed me that he had a great time and his only regret was that it couln’t have lasted longer. He said we’d go out again, but he totally dropped the ball and I never hear from him now. MY GUT was right, he found something else shiny and the poor fellow is distracted. What gives me comfort is a quote I recently read about an actor, and it went something like this: “Nothing cures an over-inflated ego like a receding hairline.” He had one of those, so I just kind of giggle to myself. Always, always, trust that gut–it’s like a guardian angel! Thanks again, Ms. Nat, you are right on!!
Gawd, that made me laugh, my exMM AC Narc last I saw him had just got pills from his doc to deal with his thinning/receeding hair…I guess he’s doing everything he can to keep his over inflated ego…and he’s an actor bwahahahha…tee hee
Wise Ol, funny enough I had the same situation but outcome was a bit different. IT’s happened ten years ago, when I was young, assertive and confident! So I had a date with a guy and he started to flirt with this waitress in front of me, she was fluttered and I felt like the odd one there! TWO minutes later I left them, he run after me begging me for forgiveness, I just said to him: “No man do this to me in the first date, good bye!” He called me few times after that, but I said he had one chance and he blew it, no more chances. What happened to me since then, NO IDEA!!!
What I am finding about the “gut feeling” is that you don’t have to swing out one way or the other. I used to swing way out in ignoring it, now I find myself swinging out making it mean too much – like I better not have that person in my life – all or nothing.
So, how I am dealing with this is I am taking things slowly and listening. It is giving me a great opportunity to be in relationship with people (not men yet, since I am in NC with an ass-clown). I am setting boundaries in my relationships.
Example: I asked my daughter not to call me after she had been drinking and she is honoring that. I’m hardly hearing from her but at least I don’t have to worry that she is driving drunk because I don’t know when she’s drunk or not now!!
Another example, I told my eldest daughter (33) that she cannot tell me how to live my life and I won’t tell her how to live her’s. It’s working better, we still are not close but at least we have some perameters to work within.
I’m in day 35 NC with ass clown. There were four days in the middle where I nearly got drawn back in but made it through. I am close to his 7 year old daughter after 18months of being “together”. I contacted her mother so that I can stay in touch. I have set a boundary that I only see the mother to be in touch with the daughter even though the mom seems to want to get close to me. My gut was screaming out on that one. Also, that I have minimal talk about ass-clown with the mom who is his ex. It’s tough because I would love to find out all his lies but I see how bad it is for me.
He has replaced me with a babe who is 20 years younger than him – just like his ex-wife and is apparently doing all the things he did with me in the beginning – makingout he has money, acting like the big shot. My gut was screaming at me when we first met. He reminded me of an old boyfriend with ADHD and no communication skills and ignoring my inner voice I thought “How great that I had that old boyfriend to teach me how to be in this relationship”!!!!!!!!! Argh! All the time thinking “God, I can’t stand this” and putting up with it. My belly was aching and I wasn’t listening. So for 12 months I have been “The Friend” and losing my self-esteem daily.
Thankfully I’m out and plan on staying out with the help of Natalie’s books and this website.
Gillian, you’re doing good! Sounds like you’re really getting your act together.
Oh and this 20-year-younger ‘babe’? Past behaviour = future behaviour. She’ll be swigging Pepto-Bismol in no time.
I started seeing a new therapist I was getting siren’s big time about this lady(but I didn’t trust myself) This lady was terribly in need of therapy herself,during my sessions talking about her husband,his kids! It was like a competion to get a chance to talk! I knew I needed out,there were warning signs before it got to this point. But I figured since she was a person whom I should be able to trust,my feelings were less important. Finally I cancelled my appointments,looked at my insurance statements she was double billing me for more time than she actually seen me! Thing is I had a burning feeling from the beginning about her,but I still went to see her! From now on I trust me before anyone! Thanx nat
Thanks to the wise and wonderful Natalie, (by the way your pic is super cute!), I AM getting it, these lessons are so important!
The last potential GF put out warning signs which in my pre BR days, I would have ignored. My gut was saying nooooooo way Jose, and I finished off the date, and dropped her off back home. In the car she said “it’d be fun to play with you”, and sure for a minute, I thought “why the hell not”, but then I knew, I just knew, it’s like you can’t eat just one potato chip. It would have dragged on for months, my self esteem would have been in the gutter, etc. etc.
Thank you gut for giving me some guts to just say NO!
when i first met the EUM, everything felt ‘right’. even my gut agreed. however, as soon as things appeared ‘off’, my gut was indeed trying to tell me something. the first time something happened, i gave him the benefit of the doubt, but the times after, i just KNEW something wasn’t right. i ignored my gut feelings. if i had opted out then, i could have saved myself months of misery and heartbreak and loss of sense of self worth.
what a lesson this has been.
i made a promise to myself that if it doesn’t feel right, i must push that exit button. take off the blinders and trust myself.
Natashya, I SO relate to this! I think our journeys may be similar. Except in my case my gut told me right from the start “give this guy a miss, he’s a bit off, and not for you, even if he is interested in you.”
I can even remember “telling” my gut “what is the worst that can happen? We have a relationship and then break up someday. I can handle that. I want the relationship! So, I will proceed with caution. I hear you, gut, but I am over-riding you.”
Then came the brief period of feeling “right”, and then the long period of giving him the benefit of the doubt, of making allowances, being patient, having self doubt, walking on eggshells, participating in ever escalating drama, and otherwise “lengthening my yardstick” as Nat says, till I finally listened to my (now screaming) gut and ended it. I had no idea it would be so extremely painful, confusing, self-destructive, and difficult to recover from.
As I have said before, I have had longer, more serious, deeper relationships that have not had anywhere near the painful recovery time when they ended. The big difference: in those healthy relationships, I did not ever ignore my gut, because my gut was fine with them.
Yup SallyJane, you accurately described my internal dialogue. I told my screaming gut, “What is the worst that can happen” and “I’m not doing anything anyhow”. I even told my gut, you know how this will end and I thought I could handle it. I overrode my gut figuring this would be the exception, although I totally underestimated the rule. I had no idea it would rock my world upside down. I will never, ever, ever, spend another night screaming and crying, let alone screaming and crying via a text message. That’s when it is all over. I will flush long before I get to the screaming crying stage, particularly if I’m relegated to a text message. Hi gut. I trust you now!
Sally Jane I could have written what you wrote word for word. I have ended two marriages and not felt the same pain and confusion. The difference for me with the latest experience though was that he was a narc and that is just so difficult to recover from. I am trying to be gentle and give myself time, and I have been NC for 4 months and not dated anyone else blah blah. Patience is not one of my virtues!
Oh my, this sounds just like me! My gut agreed too, in fact nothing felt so right as this did in the beginning. In a weird way, my gut feeling was so powerful it overrode my brain, which was hearing and processing all the dodgy things he said, but the “feeling” was so good, I ignored my own rational mind. (Then again, maybe it wasn’t the gut, it was just raging desire and hormones. I said, I want this relationship, reason be damned! This feels right, so it is right!)
But eventually even my gut started to see this guy for who he was. At one point I remember standing in my kitchen just chatting and out of the blue I blurted “this is too good to be true, isn’t it?” This was my intuition and my gut screaming at me to pay attention, but I didn’t realize it at the time. “Oh no,” he said. “This is true, this is real, you can trust me.” Then he had the gall to lean over, look me in the eye and actually ask “You do trust me, don’t you?” Yep, I got handed the ole’ “you can trust me” crappola, and I believed it. Three days later he was sleeping with somebody else. At least I know now that my deepest “knowing” was on high alert and looking out for me – I won’t ignore it again.
Emerald and Jewellz, thank you very much for the support I truly appreciate you taking a moment to chime in. I certainly wish I had not broken NC several years ago, but thinking about it now when she approached me begging to prove her love I realize now it was validation of sorts that in the end meant nothing as I’m back in the same mind fuckery state I was in before. But more hurt. I had a right to know… And sadly my gut prooved me correct. I just hope I won’t treat any new comer the same way when my spidey senses kick in. I’m sure I won’t. I’ll just trust my instinct. I just have never known any person male or female that was so dicitful. How does that mind work? This sucks but I’ll get through it. With the help of BG and all of you. Much love. Free
It seems like such a gamble though. I have always been told since I was very little that I am cleverer than most people. My IQ is very high, I did well academically, and so I believe I should be able to use my BRAIN to get the most from my relationships.
To rely on my gut seems so RISKY!!! And yet I do know that my gut is often right. Maybe it comes back to what Grace said with her High Science Theory about brains and guts being made of the same “stuff.” Maybe I should spend a month just doing whatever my gut tells me and see what happens?
I hear you Victorious. I’ve excelled academically and thought that my brain should be able to figure it out. It feels like a gamble to rely on my gut even though it has been right and my brain has been wrong when it comes to relationships. Now I think relying on my brain is RISKY. Since I’ve been doing the online dating thing, I’ve strictly relied on my gut, my boundaries, and Natalie’s fabulous suggestions. For the most part, my brain and my gut have been tracking. It hasn’t been that tough though. I talked to a nice guy at the gym today. His opening line: “My wife and I are just finishing the divorce…” Suddenly, I had a ton to do and had to get moving. Before BR, my gut would have focused on “…the divorce” and I may have hung around. After BR, my gut AND my brain focused on “my wife and I are…”. Nope, my brain can’t over-ride reality. Is all it can do is obscure it. Nice guy though. Needs a rebound, an emotional airbag, and his ego restored and maybe a quick shag. That’s NOT MY JOB!
Yeah it does spoil all the fun though. I have been soooo tempted to take the bait thrown by an ex from 30 years ago who has been in contact. He describes himself as “married but temporarily separated.” He is gorgeous, sexy, intelligent and charming. And clearly very married. Before BR I would have just heard the “Separated” bit and focussed on the fact that they are living in different cities and so their marriage MUST be over.
I have been sorely tempted but I re-read the Boundaries post and told myself that even if he were properly separated, it would still be too soon and I am NOT someones buffer.
Right on Victorious, yup married is married, even ‘properly’ seperated is still married. He sounds like an overlapper, definitely looking for a rebound or airbag. Ugh. But congrats on sussing it and realizing what it is and not subjecting yourself to the bonfire 🙂
Gina. What is ESPF? I assume it’s “extra sensory” something or other? Many times, you ladies use abbreviations and I wish you would write out(after abbr.) what you are talking about. Also, what is FWIW? Is it similar to FBG? Jeez! I feel like I’m in the dark ages, but I want to get clear. I also have to read up on Asperger’s. It’s very rare, but I see it is thrown around on BR as if it is not at all unusual.
Back to topic. I completely agree, that IBS is a common ailment among us. Our gut tells is, “No,”, we refuse to listen, and then our bodies rebel. Wish it had done that when I was messing around with the MM. But I guess, that shows how far out I was in abnormal/amoralville. LOL!
Haha Tink! Sorry to confuse you! I’m gonna jump in for Gina on this one (hope you don’t mind, Gina) and clarify:
ESFP and ENFP are designations for personality types from the Myers-Briggs personality type system.
FWIW = For What It’s Worth
We live in an acronym-rich society, and it’ll be the death of us, I swear. As Americans, we’re farther along in the decay of our language than you Brits out there. Don’t be too quick to catch up. 😉
Emerlydeyez
I love what you said about wanting to plug up that hole of uneasiness but instead realizing that and then stopping and saying..what is going on here? I still get confused and upset about how to deal with the discomfort of those feelings just being there even though I know my gut speaks the truth. I had a situation with boundaries this morning that really bothered me with my ex (we are still in contact). I went right back to feeling really upset and teary, saying to myself – oh why bother bringing it up, it will just be a hassle, just forget it, it isn’t important etc. But it was and is important to me so I had to. I am hoping that I will do this more automatically and with less inner conflict someday.
My ex broke up with me 9 months ago. I recently found out he is dating a 17 year old and he is 38. He denies dating her saying they are just friends. I don’t understand why when I see him he looks the other way to act like he didn’t see him or do I can’t see for fact its him. I don’t speak to him or plan on it but him dodging me makes me feel like I did something. Why does he do this
Miranda, he does what he does. Focus on you. Be grateful he isn’t pursing you as well as the young 17 yro. The guy may have problems you can’t solve. Dodge HIM.
Miranda, many men can only pursue girls who have zero experience of the world, zero expectations, zero common sense, zero knowledge of what men can really be like, zero taste, zero discernment, zero self-protection, zero self-knowledge, zero boundaries, and zero critical thinking ability.
We all suffered from these exact same deficits when we were at the lower end of the dating age range. And that’s why we too at that age found men old enough to be our fathers or grandfathers trailing along after us with their tongues dragging along the pavement.
These men always try to say they like the ‘youthful innocence’ of the young women, but that’s a poorly disguised lie — it’s the ‘youthful ignorance’ they like. Ignorance of assclowns, of EU behaviour, of all the dirty dealings these types of men specialise in. Young women know nothing of the language of the Red Flags. A 17 year old will stupidly and gigglingly go where a 35 year old who has ‘previous’ with any kind of assclown would never touch with a bargepole. A man will coerce, shame, and behave unconscionably with a woman that young, and she’ll cry in the bathroom every other night but do nothing for a very long time to preserve herself, whereas the same kind of shit with a 35 year old girlfriend would get table lamps thrown at his head.
What kind of men need to hang around such sadly ignorant women in order to feel comfortable and happy?
I’ll tell you who. Men who just aren’t wrapped too tight.
Thank you for your post Grizelda, I was always wondering about this “age difference attraction”. When my current AC (I am NC with him for two months now) was talking about 18 years old girls, and him being 48!!! He can date them now, I do not want him and his BS! They are welcome to him, he is a weak man with so many insecurities:)
Yeah, Miranda, even if they were ‘just friends’, what the hell does a 38 yr old man have in common with a 17 yr old girl? Yuck
And to Griz and Little, yeah, I have stopped looking at my age as a barrier except as a filter for the assclowns who are looking for the naive 20 somethings. If a guy holds my age against me, it’s only because he has a peter pan complex, will not grow up, so therefore is not a ‘man’, and not for me anyway. Flush. My ex Narc actually brought up that his roomate (who I worked with about 8 yrs ago) told him that he would have never dated me because I was too ‘old’ – the guy is 4 years older than I am. The ex Narc actually thought that this would hurt my feelings and feigned sympathy for me despite the fact that I said point blank that it wasn’t a reflection of me, but of how retarded his roomate was…
I obviously failed to register the fact that he failed to ‘read’ me, but ‘projected’ onto me what he thought I should be feeling and thinking… sign missed, lesson learned
Thank you for your reply. Let me ask you this the few times I have seen him he completely looks the other way as to think I didn’t see him. I don’t say anything but my thing is if you have moved on why I can’t you even look in my direction?
Thank you for your reply. Let me ask you this the few times I have seen him he completely looks the other way as to think I didn’t see him. I don’t say anything but my thing is if you have moved on why I can’t you even look in my direction?
I can honestly say that every time I don’t trust my gut, I get hurt eventually.
Love what Wise ol owl says!!
It’s amazing how much we can suppress our own instincts and cap it off to stress or some other reason. Once I was able to distance myself from a situation and look at things objectively without my emotions getting in the way, my instincts were on full alert. As I’m slowly to start dating or getting to know people now, I’m listening to myself more. I was interested in one guy who I seemed to hit it off with, we had a great conversation, but I couldn’t shake the feeling that he was fake, even insincere. So I made sure to watch for signs, and it turns out I was right. He’s classic EUM, when I told him I was interested, he practically told me he wasn’t ready for commitment (despite appearing very interested as well) and that he didn’t believe humans were monogamous (wtf?). The next day he even asked if I was interested in a friends with benefits arrangement, and of course I said no. We haven’t talked much since! My instincts narrowly saved me from an arrangement that wouldn’t have worked for me!
It takes guts to act on your gut . When I was immersed in my very very unhappy marriage I spent a lot of time pushing down my feelings and trying to keep everything together. I remember once reading an analogy that trying to keep your true self hidden is like trying to push a load of inflated beach balls under water and keeping them there. Eventually they will start to pop up. For me it was one more infidelity, one more dose of fantastical lying and I knew I had to end it for good and this time stick to my guns. Probably one of the hardest things I had to do, but this time I listened to my gut and while its tough, I know I did the right thing. Having that certainty and confidence in knowing my gut was right and acting on it has given me such a boost. Dealing with a marriage break up is far from easy but living with a pathological liar, a cheat, and a person who had zero regard for my welfare was even harder.
I have two situations re my gut going on ATM involving the male (& possibly interested in more than friendship with me?) species.
One is that horrid man I met walking near the beach on a hot evening who at first seemed helpful & by the 3rd time of meeting him showed himself to be a weirdo. He has called twice since with further offers of ‘help’. I have continued to decline (although I am, in fact, in desperate need of assistance). If he calls again, I will (again) & MORE FORCEFULLY this time state, ‘if I need help, *I* will call *YOU*’. I would flat out tell fuck right off but unfortunately due to his creep factor, need to exercise some damage control measures. Alternatively, I will just not answer any calls from private numbers for a while. His number always comes up as private, the only one I know that does of late, so maybe that’s another way of handling him.
The other is a male friend of 25 yrs whose stepped in with GENUINE help. We have a lot in common as FRIENDS ONLY but I suspect he’s EUM & the idea of being intimate with him for some reason really repulses me. He ‘reads well on paper’ but I know he had sex addiction issues many years ago. My gut says to be careful here too, so I am being mindful to ensure I don’t ‘owe’ him anything.
I really am looking forward to the time when my life is totally back on track. So tired of dealing with all this tbh.
@ Tink: ESFP – Extraverted, Sensing, Feeling, and Perceiving. When cultivating relationships, I am very careful to whom I reveal this to. If you look it up, you will understand how my mind works (my strengths and weaknesses). This information in the wrong hands, can and has been used to take advantage of me by individuals who lack character and integrity.
FWIW – For what it’s worth
What is an IBS and FBG??
Gina, FBG is Fallback Girl. Thus the title of Natalie’s book, Mr. Unavailable and the Fallback Girl. I thought I knew what it meant until I read the book, which for some odd reason, I resisted for several months after discovering Baggage Reclaim. I’d read so many self-help books and still needed help, I figured it was just another one. NOPE! Just like this blog, it is a brilliant book. My spring break is coming up and I’m going to read it again! If you have the means, it’s the very best. There are different types of FBG’s. It’s not as simple as it sounds.
I googled IBS. Apparently, it is Irritable Bowl Syndrome? Ouch?
Hey Runnergirl!
Thanks for breaking it down for me! Of course I knew what an FBG was! I am such a spaz sometimes!! LOL!
Irritable Bowel Syndrome
Fall Back Girl (See Natalies Book)
I love personality tests, can you do this Myers Briggs thingy online?
Do the Enneagram too, it’s even better!
I did both! Enneagram came out Type 1. Other one came out ENFJ which apparently means I have thin boundaries (no shit!) and am an over giver. All makes sense.
‘Often I have felt physical discomfort in my gut, even IBS, in times of trouble.’
I once went on a date with a nice guy that I was friends with and was taking a chance with because I decided I was done with ass clowns. We went to the movie for our first date and through the ENTIRE movie I sat tense. I had tensed up every muscle in my body and became so sore I couldn’t wait until the movie was over to relax them! I had never experienced that before and to this day I don’t know what to make of it. Was my gut trying to tell me something??? What do you guys make of it? Have any of you experienced anything like that before?
I’m not sure if you were tense because you had a horrible experience with assclowns or if because, as friends, you know this guy is up to no good, but I would proceed with caution and watch out for actual red flags.
recoveringloveaddict,
I’m a recovering love addict too! Hmmm. I’d say your gut was most definitely telling you something. In no way shape or form am I calling your friend a serial killer, but even serial killers can appear ‘nice’ and not to mention often times have a pretty full harem in their back pocket *ew ew ew* You must listen to that gut every time and not discount yourself. Tension=something was sending you on a fight or flight response. Fly. I have found when I’m around people who are healthy and nice I do feel very uncomfortable, but it’s more like a, whoah this feels good, they said something nice and I don’t know how to take it, or just this feels really dang foreign. Tension I know all to well, and for me that means get the eff out and fast.
I didn’t listen to my gut and now i’m paying the price. I gave in because he promised to talk about the baby. I travelled 9 hours at great expense, he paid half. I was completely awash with emotion, I cried and we slept together. He asked if I was on the pill and I said yes. I tried for four days to talk about my lost baby. He told me to focus on the future. I became more and more anxious,but yesterday we slept together again. I tried to mention the baby again but ended up in a heap crying. Somehow or other we returned to my being on the pill. Because I was angry and upset I hinted that I might not be. He became furious, told me I was cunning and deceptive and had acted like a criminal. He said that it was for the best that i had lost the baby. He orderered me to go get the morning after pil. He never gave me a chance to explain. He would not listen. He left me stranded here. I could not aford to change my ticket. I’m now at the airport in tears. it will be hours. He has blockd me so G can’t talk to him. I am the biggest fool and G just want to be home.
Lily I am so sorry. Please please tell yourself this will be the last time. He is not a man he is a lowlife scumbag piece of shit. I am sure rev and Ms D will come up with far better descriptions. Strong cup of tea for you. Lots of sugar. Buy a magazine or something to try to distract yourself just for now while you wait for the plane. Or buy a notebook and journal how you feel right now. The read it back next time the fucker tries to reel you in. I would like to set a rocket off up his arse.
Oh Lily, I feel for you,and hope you get home safely. Please, please get help for your loss with a safe appropriate person. You have suffered an awful loss and you do not need to compound it by reaching out to someone who is not able or willing to help you. Stay safe and focus on you.
Lily, this is one of those situations that was going to happen as long as you kept seeking from him something that you knew that you could not get. You want him to make the loss of your baby right. You want a man with no empathy in general to empathise and grieve with you for a baby that he didn’t support you on. You want a miracle.
It’s bloody awful what has happened and I’m sorry that you’re going through this. I want to give you a big squeezy cuddle and tell you that everything will be ok and it will, once you let go.
Please get home safe and accept that this is the end of the road for you and him and deal with your grief. Go to grief counselling, go to grief support groups, do whatever you can. You have been trying to turn back time because you want to change things outside of your control that you regret, which is actually creating more regret. Your unborn son would not want you to pursue this man in his name and memory so don’t. You can keep his memory alive without ‘input’ from your ex. You cannot truly hold your son in your heart and learn to live with this loss as long as you’re giving room to this prick. There is only so much room in the inn and a toxic guest pushes out everyone else including you and the very son you love, so it’s time to make your choice.
Also do not make the meaning of this be about your worth or your baby – I hope you finally see this man for what he is and see this as a sign to meet your own needs and leave him behind.
Nat is right, continuing any contact with this unbelievable low-life does not honor your son or his memory. Your son would not want this done in his name. Your son would not want you to suffer like this. Please, please make the choice to get some serious grief counseling as a way to honor your precious baby as well as yourself.
Lilly I’m so sorry.
All I can say is thank you for being honest with us here. Thank you for telling us. I’m glad you did. And I’m glad you’re letting us try to help you.
You now know everything about this man that there is to know. Everything. There is nothing more to know. There are no hidden qualities, there are no secret miracles, there are no special meanings, there are no changes to come, there is no goodness in him. No, not even a little goodness and not even for you who has given him everything.
He is behaving true to form and strictly according to his predatory and cruel personality disorder. Understand that the pathology is forever. It will never, ever, ever change no matter how badly you wish it would. It will not. Asking a shop window dummy to feel something for you is futile. Asking it to behave like a human being, to show you some element of kindness after what you’ve been through will only ever get the kind of result you’ve just received. Do you understand this? Do you understand that there is no cure, no treatment, no amelioration for what’s wrong with him down to his core? This man has done enough deliberate damage to you. No more please — it’s time to exclude him from your life and to regain control of yourself.
There’s no need to be afraid — you’ve been through the worst and here you are, just needing help to get your life back. As the others say, please get grief counselling now — I promise you it will help you and make you feel better than you can possibly imagine at this point. It will help to make you feel normal again! Wouldn’t that be good, to feel normal again? Balanced? Calm? Happy, even?
Safe journey home. And once you are home, please let another more personal journey begin Lilly.
Lilly,
Honey, are you home safe now? Girl, these things happen. It’s life. He’s a dickwad and you and I and the postman and everyone here know it. Like all the rest of the girls here said, you can’t get validation from him for you OR your baby boy. It would be like getting blood out of a stone, and I think even a stone would be more generous than this poor excuse for a human being.
Lilly, print out what Natalie has said to you. She is brilliant and right on, especially about not letting this toxic waste rent room at the “inn” anymore. And I do agree that grief counseling would be very helpful. Even if you’ve already done it before and are thinking “been there, done that.” Try again. Try with a new counselor. Take your time and INTERVIEW counselors first before picking one, so that you are sure to invite someone safe and kind and gentle into your psyche at such a delicate time. I know you’ll be okay, Lilly. If your schedule permits, take a couple of days and get as much sleep as you can, and then when you’re rested, get up and take a gentle walk outside in nature. Drink tea all day, anything to keep your core warm. Take hot baths. Eat regularly and healthy food, no alcohol right now. Find a friend and accept as many hugs as you need from them. Tell them you need to talk and have them listen and not say anything or give any advice for now. Just rest and rebuild right now, because you’ve been through a trauma with this clown. And honey, this guy would have treated *anyone* this way, so please don’t waste any time thinking that somehow it was your worth or something about you that *made* him act in such a heartless way. You may have put yourself in the middle of the road temporarily, but it doesn’t change the fact that he’s a drunk and reckless driver who hit you. Please, please do whatever you can to take care of yourself and *don’t* do anything rash right now. I know that everyone here on BR is pulling for you.
Fantastic post Rev So sorry Lilly. Rev is spot on with her post every word. Print out what both Natalie and Rev said to you. Prayers and positive thoughts coming your way.
Lilly all i can say is big hugs and care for you and your baby . You have been through such a lot please be string and get home . Then please please seek proper help for the loss .your son will be proud of how strong you have been and will be again x
Sorry Grizelda for leaving you out. Yours was great too. Lilly print them all out. You got great advice from some extremely some smart posters.
Lily
I’m so sorry you had to hear him say those harsh things. It’s horrible just reading them, I cannot imagine how it would feel actually having them said by someone you do, or did, love. It can be very, very difficult to reconcile the picture or memory of the person you fell for with the person showing himself to you now. We don’t want to believe it. Its horrible and frightening. But that really is who he is.
You weren’t a fool, it’s more a question of finding it hard to accept that someone would behave like this and wanting to give them a chance to prove they aren’t what you fear them to be. I suspect you are generally an optimistic person who likes to see the best in people, this is generally a strength, but like all strengths it can be a weakness too.
I hope when you get home you take care of you – remembering to drink plenty of water, eat, and sleep as much as you can.
Lilly. I am so sorry to hear that. I think the other commenters & NML have pretty much covered it and said it better than I probably can, but PLEASE… do not waste any more of your time on this AC. What he did and said was totally uncalled for and shows that he has no empathy whatsoever. You deserve better. I second the suggestion previous commenters made about going to grief counseling; now is the time for you to take care of YOU. *hugs* <3
Sweet Lilly, don´t beat yourself up any longer. He lured you into this and you responded because you are still extremely vulnerable. I really wish you had severed off his penis instead of even discussing the morning after bs, but hey, that´s easy to say in hindsight, right?
I know this is probably my overly optimistic silliness talking but the good thing is that you can now drop him completely and begin to heal.
Big hugs to you.
Lilly, I’m sorry. As the others have said, please take care of yourself. You’ve been through some horrific trauma. Sending you support. Rest, eat, and sleep now.
@Lilly,
I can’t say anything better than what anyone else said. I am so sorry but I have to say that if this is what it takes for you to get this truly sick man out of your life, than it needed to be the mistake that was made. There is NO turning back now; there is NO reason to EVER EVER EVER see this maggot again. Please please please dig down into your sensible side and see this toxic man for what he is and stop speaking to him. Ever. Ever.
Please go to grief counseling and get help; this is not healthy for you and he is not worth what you are going through. He does not have the key to getting you to get over anything; you have that key please please see that.
((((hugs )))
Lilly. I am sending you a cyber hug. What a complete & total bastard!! You deserve so much better. Sometimes we put our hands back into the fire because we forget how much it hurt before. Been there done that. I hope this is the last time you ever speak to this creature. Listen to all the wise people who have responded. FLUSH him from your life forever. I attended a greif share group when my mother passed .It was nice to share w/people who understood the emotions of what I was going thru. I am sure hospitals have them for anyone who has suffered the loss of a child. God Bless U …
Recoveringloveaddict:
Your situation reminded me of something I experienced last year several times. I was starting to date a guy friend from my teen years (am 31 now) that I had some cautions about but many good things too… long distance from him, and several times he flew me to visit him in his state. Each time I was there, (not to be too graphic) but my colon would literally seem to shut down for several days. It felt like my insides went into major lock down/protect mode.. and sure enough, there were stressers in the relationship and in time they got drastically worse, til I had to admit down the road, he was abusive. My point being, my body was in tune with things I was on alert for, but it was registering in my ‘gut’ (literally!) way more adamently than my mind knew for sure then. I don’t know about your situation – maybe yours is a positive. The unfamiliar of potentially being with a healthy, good man is scary enough to bring a bodily reaction. Whatever it pans out to be- – acknowledge it, like you are, and remember as you continue your journey.. ‘listen to our gut!’ 🙂
Gina, You’re funny. I thought you would know these abbreviations. IBS is Irritable Bowel Syndrome, characterized by severe cramping, constipation, nausea. It’s in the intestines, not to be confused with gastric hyperacidity or otherwise known as GERD, which is in the stomach and esophagus. FBG is Fallback Girl — you knew that one. Nice that we can exchange this info. Thanks so much. Hugs, Tink.
Shyner,
Okay, so I know I’m a little late to weigh in on your dude, but seriously WTF? Is the guy making bird houses out of recycled landmines for Croatian orphans or some such bollox? I mean……..(wait for it)………….(no, wait for it some more)………REALLY?????????? This guy is too busy telepathically healing people like Dionne Freakin’ Warwick to pick up a freakin’ phone and talk to you? He’s narcissistic as fuck.
Mark my words: when you get through the pain that this asshole has inflicted on you, and when you get right with you, you’ll laugh your ASS off when you look back on nutcases like this. Really. Since we’re quoting Woody Allen on this site (lookin’ at YOU, Mags and Grace! ;)), this fits: “Comedy is tragedy plus time.” Someday you’ll laugh your ass off, and the only tears you’ll shed will be tears of disbelief and mirth that you let a crack addict like this dude in your immediate presence. End rant.
Ha. Well, that put a smile on my face. i get to a point where I start trusting my gut and then remember that I’ve been told so many times that it’s all my fault and I’ve ruined everything, that I swing that way instead. And since I found out there was a silent woman who spoke again, that’s made me doubt myself even more. Am I literally bonkers? It reads like a bad film. He told me he didn’t have any credit to call but I’m sure he did and besides, there were other ways he could have got in touch. I feel like I’m drifting away form my own truth here and focusing on the wrong stuff. I don’t even know what to believe anymore. I would love a boyfriend. It’s been years.
Telling you that you ‘ruined things’ is pure BS. There was never a future for you to ruin as there was never a future with him, he’s just throwing that shite at you to evade his responsibility in the mess he created. He will never grow up. Just explore why you take on the negative messages so readily, I know I am/was prone to this mindfuckery myself as I was bullied by my brother and his friends, got negative messaging about myself from my misogynist father, so it hit/s a sore spot already established within me from my past. Time to dig deep to heal those spots so ACs of the future can’t prey on them in us.
I’d love a boyfriend too, but I need to love me first and then I know I will find a bf that I deserve. No more EUM ACs…
Shyner,
we all would love a boyfriend, but this guy you’re writing about is obviously not a relationship material. As you’ve said yourself – there were other ways to contact you, yet he didn’t use them.
So kick him out of your life as soon as possbile.
I wish I was that wise when my latest EUM acted the same – went silent on me after several months of daily comunication, yet he would answer my texts if I wrote him.
His explanation was he is moving, and he was cut out from the cyber world, though while moving he went to his office every single day and he surely could write me an email at least to say he will be out of reach for some time. But guess what-he didn’t.
So I wasted a whole month all in knots, waiting for my prince charming to remember I exist. And finally when I asked “wtf?” he just ignored me and ignores me ever since.
Don’t repeat my mistake of wanting a relationship with a guy who doesn’t want one and living in a fantasy of how things would be if he was your bf. If he wanted that, he would turn the world around just to talk to you,not even to mention any other stuff, yet he does nothing, and thats all you need to know.
NC is going pretty well, so far. I had a text from him a couple of days ago and he sounded very cross indeed but that’s up to him. I think I have gone through all the emotions quite intensely so by the time I got to this bit, I was ready for it. I have started a mindfulness course, too, which is helping and I read BR on the train to and from work – invaluable. I am absolutely determined to break this pattern of dissing myself and choosing crap men to mirror that. I can do this. I am doing this. I am knackered and want a holiday. Changing entrenched patterns of thought is a tough call but I am completely convinced it is the only way forward and I’m excited. This is a new feeling. Thank you everyone.
This NC positiveness comes and goes, doesn’t it? His life is such a mess and I think he’s a very unhappy person. Maybe I’m wrong but I have this naff side of me that hopes he’s ok and i want to check. Rubbish.
Yes, this positiveness of NC truly comes and goes, so thats why its so hard to maintain at times. It would be for better if you’d be able to stay NC, cause my experience shows that breaking it has little impact on him, while you get hurt once again (by your own hands), cause he doesn’t reciprocate. Reminder why you should stay NC – going through some hard time doesn’t give a man the right to treat you with disrespect.
Rev. Thank you also for enlightening me. Now I won’t feel so self-conscious when I ask for clarifications of abbreviations. I’ve been reluctant to appear stupid. Btw, I’m not a Brit. As American as can be, formerly a New York City girl. All the more reason I should know these things.
Tink,
NYC in the house!!!! Right on! 😉 Yeah, wasn’t sure where you were, as we have such a cool mix of people here from far flung places. And please don’t ever be bashful about not knowing acronyms. There’s been many a time where I’ve had to figure it out while reading comments here. You’re far from “stupid” as anyone can plainly read from your comments, Tink. 🙂
Griz. Love what you wrote about telling the difference between someone lying to you, and telling the truth. Never gave it much thought. But, it’s so true.
Jewells. You got me going, now. Please keep us informed about you and the “nice” guy who was so helpful to you when you broke your ankle. Any rship possibilites there?
Hey Tink,
Nope, I’m not attracted. I think pre BR I was because he is EU. He also has AC tendancies, I do see that he is aware of it to a degree, but he just says the darndest things. He’s negative, looks for things to comment on inappropriately and to judge and compare. I took his help as it did give me an opportunity to get to know him better and the assesment is that he’s a no go. I give him credit for putting in the time and effort and behaving in a thoughtful manner, so I can say that I can be friends. It’s the underlying negativity, opinionated, critical stances that turns me off completely. I grew up with that kind of negativity from my father, the picking on part from my brother and I’m not setting myself up for more of that when I have choice not to. To be truthful I really can’t spend a whole lot of time with him as I only have so much patience with that part of him, couple hours once a week is about it. So, that’s it ducky. But hey, my ankle is near the mend, so I’ll be out and about in no time meeting new peeps. I can’t wait to put my BR education to work 🙂 (tho I think I already have with this guy)
That gut feeling. It’s usually found under the anxiety and fear, residing quietly but calm and firm. Sometimes it sounds like a damn lunatic to me. What, don’t go there, buy that, Why the eff not? If I don’t listen to it, it gets me every time and makes sure there will be another opportunity for me to choose it instead of the bad.
Anna my ex EUM sounds like the same guy, although mine was making all the right noises about us being in a relationship and being ‘a couple’. My gut had a niggle and I acknowledged it but emotionally took a small step back to observe and look at things objectively.
It was an LDR and I flew down for the weekend as I felt that being in his environment for the first time, something would become clear and it did. On the sat evening his phone was vibrating with messages and while he was upstairs I looked at the screen to see one girls name….then moments later another name. When he came down I said casually I think your phone has a msg. He looked at it and said, oh it’s my sister. Eh no….it wasn’t. He only has one sister…that wasn’t her name that showed up. Had he been honest at that point and said oh it’s my friend such and such, I wouldn’t have been tempted to properly look at his messages as I did the next morning, and got my answer…I wasn’t the only one he was dating!
What I recognised in him were very subtle signs of FFWD’ing, future faking, trying to manage the relationship by text (which I called him out on). It’s information gained on this wonderful site that helped me know shady behaviour when i saw it, even though he was pretty good….although not that good. He thought he was pretty smart but don’t tell a girl that your lucky number is 3 and not expect me to try 3333 to unlock your phone….which it did.
I felt ashamed at checking his phone as it is something hand on heart that I have never done in my life, but I’m glad I found out.
Worst part was when caught out he had nothing to say. He actually left me in his house and wouldn’t come back and talk to me, saying he was disgusted with himself and couldn’t face me!! Bless him……..he’s lucky I’m a woman of dignity and didn’t trash his house before leaving. I left with my head held high and saved myself a lot of heartache.
Apparently his ex and their breakup (3 years ago) has made it too hard to care deeply for anyone….how sad…now go tell someone who gives a shit!!!
Oh yeah, they all have this “great” excuse about their broken-little-heart, yet at the same time they don’t feel any shame to go out and break someone elses!
Another thing on gut feelings: It’s not necessarily relegated to life or death, emergency or relationships with others situations. Case in point: After initiating no contact with the ex, I requested a new cell phone number. I had an uneasy feeling as soon as they assigned me the new one. My gut said,”Speak up. Politely ask for another one. Say you don’t want that one. You want another, I can assure you, you don’t want that one.” I didn’t listen for out of fear of appearing too needy or demanding. Welp, now I get all these annoying calls and texts from solicitors and strange numbers. Case in point.
I do not know Natalie, if it is gut feeling or not…BUT I feel that I am not READY to meet anyone, I am so disappointed of men, and I do not know if I ever meet anyone special. I just had enough and genially feel comfortable to be on my own, no calls, no dates, no hurt, no disappointments…IT is easy this way, me think:)
Little Star,
I’m feeling EXACTLY the same way.
Little Star,
You have to do what you’re comfortable with.
Please know, there are a lot of good guys out there, but it was the men WE chose that screwed things up.
Give it time, and when your boundaries and self-esteem are in place, you will trust and make better choices. It affects all area of your life!
Little Star… I am in the same mind frame as you.. I am so over men & their games,lies,cheating ect…It does at times make me sad that I am alone but I tell myself being alone is so much better than being with someone that does the things I mentioned above. I dont have the desire or energy to play private detective anymore.
Lilly … wish I could carry you to a safe place. As always, sending big hugs and a kiss on the forehead. So sorry.
You are worthy and loveable Lilly and so was your baby. Believe that. Leave that man behind completely. He is NOT part of the equation.
Oh, like so much of what I read on BR, this is something I wish I’d heeded a long time ago — Before my recent foray into Ass-clownery. There was always something a little ‘off’ about him, that I could never put my finger on. He’s nice to talk to, for sure (or he can be) — but (this sounds weird) — in photos, there’s something wrong with his eyes. They look almost predatory. There’s always been something in him that I’m a little afraid of. I think I sensed the lack of empathy from the get-go, and I’ve suspected for a while now that he’s a narc. Today is day 10 of NC, and I’m feeling strong. So far, he’s not tried — so maybe I’ve escaped, relatively unscathed. We shall see. 🙂
Best hopes for you Foxglove! Stay strong. NC is the best investment you can make in yourself when you want your life back.
I know what you mean about the eyes. I find it hard to put into words, yes predatory but also somehow… empty? Like nobody’s home?
Odd isn’t it. When we’re growing up, we’re always told by parents, grandparents, teacher, adults, clergy, etc that ‘you can’t tell a book by its cover’ or that you need to ‘give everyone a chance’, that ‘everyone is good’ and so on. We are largely encouraged to ignore our gut screaming at us. In fact, the way I was brought up, I was loudly and publicly shamed and scolded by the adults around me if I didn’t immediately take an active liking to everyone I met.
If only we’d had ‘BR training for little girls on the go’ back in the 70s…!
Hi Grizelda
Agreed. Many a time my gut would tell me to back up or get the hell out of there. I would doubt that instinct in favor of wanting to be nice, comforming, easy going or because others said that this is a nice, great, good or amazing person, even though I felt they were not.
Animals have the right idea. They trust their gut and if it does not sound or smell right they run.
I have now invested in trainers for the rest of my life journey.
Grizelda…..
NC is the best investment you can make in yourself when you want your life back…AMEN
NC is the only way to heal,move on & recover from these relationships. Anyone who believes otherwise is just fooling themselves.
Also, Nat probally wasnt even born yet in the 70’s 🙂 but how nice it would have been to know then what I know now.. Better late than never!!
Rev. Thanks so much for the vote of confidence. From now on I will ask when I don’t know. Hell, nobody knows everything. We are so fortunate to have BR. We can let it all hang out, seek comfort, advise, give each other encouragement, joke around about the never-ending BS of ACs and not feel embarrassed.
Jewells. I understand. It’s so much to consider with these men. They may have the smoothest, shiniest veneer covering the biggest AC mannerisms, tactics, etc. The “nice” ones are the most dangerous and you’re really challenged to use all aspects of your BR education. Do you mind if I suggest something to you? Think of the “no-go” guys as The Ac, The ExMM, because when you say “My” that denotes possession and he was never
“yours”, was he? I believe the how we THINK, so do we SPEAK. And, I’m sure you are trying to DISTANCE yourself as much as possible. Therefore, he is not “My” ExMM AC. Lots of BR ladies use the same term and I cringe every time I see it. Maybe, it’s ME.
You’ve got a good point Tink. It did take me getting to the point of realization of what you said of him not ‘being mine’ to truly detach and accept the finality of the relationshit and subsequent ability to actualize the lessons within myself. He’s where he’s meant to be as he made a promise there long before he met me, it was never ‘Supposed To Be’ (despite his sweet nothings that said otherwise) as he belonged somewhere else already. He was just visiting a life lesson upon me about what men are capable of, and nothing more.
Now, we could easily use ‘the’ instead of ‘my’ as these clowns definitely play from the same book, so really they are interchangeable and require no definition by who in particular had the life lesson bestowed upon them by whatever flavour of EUM it was, whether it be MM, AC, Narc, Psyc, Socio or whatever combo fits.
I think my reference to ‘my’ in the ex MM, is that despite not ‘being mine’, there was a relationshit and most definitly an attachment. He was ‘my’ experience, he definitely changed ‘my’ outlook, he impacted ‘my’ life in a big way. I won’t refer to ‘no go’ guy as ‘the’ AC, as there is and has been no relationship, attachment, nor lessons derived from him, therefore as a non event, he just gets the label ‘work friend’.
So, from now on I will endeavor to refer to ‘the’ exMM AC Narc, as I am the one writing means I am the one with the experience of him and therefore how he relates is a given. 😉
Great point Tinkerbell. I unconsciously kept referring to the ex as MY ex husband. Yes, I truly believed he was MINE because he was married to me so that was supposed to mean something. However he lied and cheated and behaved appallingly and I hung on far longer than was healthy, because he was MY responsibility (or so I thought) and I needed to change him!! What warped thinking on my part. Now, thanks to a lot of hard work on my part, Nats courses and the BR community I am wiser and realise I was really on a hiding to nothing. From now on he’s THE ex husband. Thanks Tink for sharing that point, its another helpful step for me in disassociating and moving forward.
Gut gut gut gut. Follow your gut. I’m at a creepy coffee shop with creepy men (hey once you sift through the creepies, they have good tea). A creepy with a puffed up chest came to chat me up. He called me mentally quick. Ew, as if this is a complement as some women are so challenged in that area. Then he mentions an ex. I probe him even further and he talks about how she was ‘battshit crazy’ and how they were always fucking or fighting. Ew. I then say to him, “It’s men like you that make me happy to be single.” Go me. Victory me. Loser guy zero. He then says, “I’ve kept you from journaling long enough.” I reply,”Yes you have.” He looked at me a bit stunned and I said,”What, you said it?!” Then he left. Thank god. What a jerk. There would have been a time I’d have folded for fear of being a bitch. I handled this one like a badass. Go me. Sometimes we must put on our big girl bitch pants to deal with these losers. Thanks BR! Couldn’t have done it without you. It smells like poop in here. I’m leaving 🙁
Nice one Peanut!
Nothing like a man cozying up to you in a public place and handing you a whole basket full-o-red-flags.
He needs a new pick-up technique. Maybe something a bit more subtle. I wonder if he’s ever tried “Hi. Would you like to come back to mine and see my collection of crossbows and novels about serial killers? You wouldn’t? Ok. Would you like to come into the alley behind the building with me so I can show you something? You wouldn’t? Ok. Um. Hey, where are you going?”
Grizelda,
I have actually encountered a scenario you just described. Except this guy wanted me to go look for snakes in a ditch with him. Actually it was at the same place. Hmmmm. Anyway it was a few years ago, I didn’t leave with him, but I managed to be ‘nice’ the entire time I let him talk to me (a good 30 min). Now my approach would be more: “Beat it creep.”
Jewells. You got my point so perfectly. I’m glad. Keep on strong and wise as you are.
Thank you so much BR for being my safe place. I somehow made it home, but I’m not in good shape. I’m clinging desperately to all your responses, thank you Natalie, Victorious, Chrysalis, Sadder but Wiser, Grizelda, Revolution, beth d, Tired, Mymble, loj, & McKenzieM. Natalie, BR has saved me from total meltdown. I truly need help and will be finding a new grief counsellor. I thought I was doing ok and I thought I could handle him. But I could not and I cannot. He was trying to re-establish me as his FBG which I recognised because I’ve been coming here a long time and I was once again trying to get blood from a stone. It was a horrible struggle. Him trying to have all the power and control and me fighting desperately for him to properly acknowledge the baby and show some emotion and care. He now believes there is a chance I could be pregnant again and that I’ve intentionally deceived him. This is unforgiveable on my part; it’s manipulative and desperate behaviour. But I felt in danger of being swallowed up by him. He was just about to put me back in a box, send me on my way and take me out when he wanted me again. He had it all organised, our work together, when and where we would next meet up, but he was distancing himself emotionally; the same old hot and cold stuff. He showed me his application for a position in Washington and I was floored. One minute he was staying here the next he was going overseas. I didn’t know if I was coming or going and telling him I hadn’t taken precautions felt like something to grab onto, but I don’t really know what I was trying to achieve. All I know is I wanted some emotion, some sort of reaction which is what I got and he punished me big time. He verbally attacked me and left me stranded, almost 4000 km from home. I’m safely home now, but I feel abandoned, humiliated, angry and tearful. I also feel like a bad, evil person and I’m sorry for what I said. It was a mistake, but he wouldn’t give me a chance to rectify it. I’m going to need all the strength I can muster because this HAS to be it. I’ve plummeted into a deep, deep hole and I can’t go on like this. I’m listening to my gut now and it’s telling me to completely cut-off and block him, but is it right to let him believe I may be pregnant? I am the one in the wrong here, but I don’t want to start up any more conversation. I JUST CAN’T. I want to go ahead and block him. It will take me minutes to block him from every source. For my own sanity; I cannot cope anymore.
Lilly,
I’m so glad you made it home safe. You don’t owe this man anything and I fear that worrying about whether it’s right to make him wonder is just one more way to keep a psychological connection and/or to justify reaching out to him again.
You think he’s going to fret? If he thinks about what you said at all, it will be more about how to avoid responsibility than to worry about you, and you don’t need another reminder of that.
I’m glad to read that you know that communicating with him is not what you need to do “for your own sanity.”
Block. Block. Block.
And ((hugs))
Lilly,
Please forgive yourself for what you said. Don’t try to rectify it, don’t use it as an excuse to get back in touch with him. Just leave it.
You only said it because you felt you had no other weaponry to use at the time against his reasserting his power over you and leaving you helpless. You can’t be blamed for that, you were desperate, you were cornered, he was being entirely emotionally abusive, and you used whatever weapon came to hand. But it’s over now. Just leave it. Don’t return to it, don’t pick it up again, don’t explain yourself. Why? Because that comment might have inadvertently freed you. When you said it, it worked. An escape hatch opened and in you went, while he turned and ran screaming for the hills. You’re now home. Just leave it there.
This man does not sound right ‘upstairs’.
Lilly!
If a man is that concerned about unwanted pregnancy there are things he can do about that. 1. Not have sex (100% reliable) 2. Use a condom (+90% reliable) 3. Coitus interruptus (I’m not putting a figure on that, but it’s more reliable than full steam ahead). Let him stew over whether you are pregnant or not, when he hears nothing for a month, he will assume that you’re not.
As for what you have done wrong, while I say “trust your judgment”, those of us with an overly sensitive conscience may need to trust the judgment of outsiders. A few times at work I’ve questioned myself and my boss has said “You’ve done nothing wrong”. I’ve run things past my boyfriend and he says “there is no sin there”. And I think o-kay. I might not believe it or feel it, but I trust them. Trust us. You have not behaved in your best interests but you are not a bad, evil person for making a mistake.
You are not the first of us who has instigated NC, struggled with it and then contacted him just as you were feeling better. You think “ I can handle it now I’m stronger.” I say, you can see him when you don’t care whether you see him. And what’s the benefit of being able to handle an assclown? You’re not the assclown whisperer. Just because you’ve changed doesn’t mean he has. I’ve been on BR for some years now and not one single time has re-establishing contact turned out well. The BEST it can achieve is affirmation of what you already know (he’s an ass), and the worst it can achieve is what you just experienced. Some believe that getting the “best” is worth the risk, but I personally don’t think it is. I don’t need to be on the receiving end of more assholery to confirm what I already know.
You seem to be in the situation where any attention is better than no attention. Drama feels like something is happening and it’s a distraction. You can lock in on what he’s done and how bad it is (and yes it is bad) rather than look at what you need to do. Yes, block him from every source. You’ve got to rid of him before you can move on. That is 100% non-negotiable. Don’t contact him just to tell him you’re not pregnant. You’re looking at a mountain of crap and wondering how you can fix it. Just walk away. There’s no good way to end this, just end it.
I used to watch Judge Judy and occasionally a woman will put in a claim for emotional damages. Judge says “I can get you compensation for the car/money/ whatever but I can’t compensate you for that. YOU PICKED HIM!” When I was leaving the abusive ex, a few people said “You picked him”. It is harsh but there’s a truism there. You need to stop picking him. The real problem with these people isn’t that they are assclowns, it’s that we end up doing things we don’t believe in (manipulation, infidelity, sexual stuff, drama seeking). Save yourself from that.
Grace, “assclown whisperer!”
Classic.
Lilly, so glad you got home Ok but now the work begins again. I don’t suppose he gives a toss if you are pregnant or not really. He just cannot cope with any loss of CONTROL. Like someone else said, you are looking at a pile of crap, but please don’t be tempted to try and sift through it and sort it out. Just leave it there, steaming in all it’s crappiness in the sun, and move on away from it.
Lilly,
that man did terrible things to you, I’m really sorry you had to go through all this. Not sure if this will be any comforting, but this latest (and hopefully the last) encounter with him could actually be the first stone to step on in your journey up from this painfull situation that you’re in at the moment.
You are not a bad person, you’re just sad and in grief for your baby, and that makes you vulnerable. You have nothing to rectify – you’ve tried doing this for too long, dear.If he is afraid that you might be pregnant again-well fine, I wish he was afraid actually, if he can’t feel anything nice, he could at least feel terrified! How many times he left you hanging without answers you wanted? I bet it was about *too many times*. So don’t worry about him, and take care of you. Hugs!
Lilly,
Your anxiety about this issue is perhaps more about wanting him not to think badly of you, rather than actually worrying that he might be upset. I doubt that he is very concerned about that issue anyway. He knows that it would only be a small possibility, at most. He got angry because he was temporarily alarmed.
It doesn’t matter what he thinks. It
would only matter if he genuinely cared, and was acting in a caring way. Don’t let him sit in judgement on you, he is in no position to get self-righteous and indignant. His actions have been about
1000 worse. Stop blaming yourself and worrying about what happened, and try to focus on looking after yourself and your future.
And block him because there is a strong possibility he’ll be back once the dust has settled – how many times can you put yourself through this?
It is odd, you said a few weeks ago how much stronger you felt and I recognised that I had broken NC when I was nearly over him, thinking I could “handle it”. Well duh. The reason I was better was because I had been NC. And I went through that cycle three times, getting through the worst, starting to feel good about myself and taking that as meaning ready to re-engage again.
But nothing had changed with him, just as yours has not changed and never ever will. It’s banging your head off a brick wall.
Lilly,
I am sorry that you are going through so much pain.
Sounds like a good idea to explore a new grief counselor, sometimes you have to go through several to find the right match. Are you on anti-depressants?
Please. do not contact this man!!!!! I feel that you are using it as an excuse to reconnect. The connection needs to be cut. Immediately!
Please be kind to yourself and block all forms of contact. This has to stop for the sake of your sanity. He has nothing to give you, nor does he want to!
Lilly,
I’m so glad your home safe and you have distance from that clown. Please read what all of the other lovely women have written to you, as it’s all so true. And don’t worry about what you said to him. You don’t owe him any explanation whatsoever. Like everyone says, when you block him, he’ll get the hint pretty quickly that you’re not pregnant.
I just watched the move “Bridesmaids” for the first time this weekend, and it was hilarious. But there was a character that was a total TOTAL AC DOUCHEBAG and he reminded me of all of our assclowns. In the movie, the main character met someone much better than that guy and started to be treated with the love and respect she deserved. Watch that movie, because it’s hilarious and it will get your brain going. Don’t buy your douchebag’s subtle propaganda that you only deserve to buy what he’s selling. Walk away from the flea mart. There are REAL Persian rugs for much less money elsewhere.
Take care of you, Lilly. Hugs and kisses on the cheek.
Love,
Rev
Dear Lilly,
I can only second the wise words of the women who have already commented. You are a wonderful person – obvious even virtually! You made a very understandable mistake against your own better judgement, and got badly burned. You thought you might find healing and closure and you found the opposite – but an important part of you already knew this would happen. You are right that you are in a “deep hole” and cannot continue the way you have been. You did nothing “unforgivable”. What’s the saying? When you play in the mud you get dirty. So get yourself out of the mud once and for all! You absolutely CAN put this behind you and become the person you want to be, the person you really are. This misery is temporary, and very useful if it causes you to make the changes you need to make. You CAN and WILL. And we are all behind you. Big big hugs.
@ Lilly, I second the wise advice from above: “Your anxiety about this issue is perhaps more about wanting him not to think badly of you, rather than actually worrying that he might be upset.”
What I am about to say will be hard to hear, but it is said with love: LOOK at this situation clearly. Think about this: he left you when you were pregnant the first time, he is married, he does not care. at all. he did not care about your feelings, nor your childs…I know this hurts to see this but these are the facts. Now, despite what I just wrote, you care about what he thinks about you? You? Who the hell is he, to judge you, after cheating on his wife, leaving your pregnant and alone and then devastated after the miscarriage….seriously, how in the world is it reasonable to even care what this complete selfish dick thinks? It would be like caring if someone who tried to kill you, was accidentally stepped on, by you…it makes NO sense!
Please stop giving this man power; you are literally giving him power over you every time you care what he thinks. You need to make a choice now to choose to stop caring. You can make this choice. You can choose to stop responding to him, to stop giving him power. Please stop this madness and please get grief counseling. Please:(
Ladies (& gents),
Months ago, back when I was still involved with the EU AC, I met an acquaintance. Let’s call him Jim. I found Jim to be a nice guy. I thought he might have been interested in me, but I was so hug up on EU AC that I kind of blew him off. Jim has invited me out and I don’t know what to tell him. He seems like he doesn’t have any AC tendencies, but I’m worried that he might just be a “decent guy,” or an AC in disguise. Does anyone else have this problem? Being afraid to trust themselves after going NC with an EUM/AC? I’m concerned that I don’t trust my judgment because of my history of beig a FBG.
Any thoughts?
I am no expert but using BR I would say “Let him/it unfold.” If you take it slowly and have all your spidey senses about you then why not? I am assuming here that the guy is properly single and that you don’t find him physically repellant. The law states that you have to report back though……………
Victorious — he is properly single and not repulsive to me physically. He’s not my usual type but certainly not ugly.
Jewells – I will look for those blogs. Thanks.
Lau_ra – Haha! I would love to put my new found BR knowledge to the test. I think I am freaked out by the potential of being an EUW because if the date went well and he actually wanted a relationship. I want a healthy relationship, just not sure I want to be in a relationship right this moment becuase I’m still working on getting my own shit together after the havoc that the EU AC wreaked on my life.
Kit+Kat – I’m not opposed to going on dates, I just know I’m not ready for a relationship given I’m almost two weeks into NC with the EU AC. So, I am torn between thinking a date is just a date, it’d be fun, and thinking that it would be unfair to waste this dude’s time if he wants a relationship. But I guess I wouldn’t know what he wants until I actually go out with him, haha. 😛
Tinkerbell – See what I wrote to Lau_ra & Kit-Kat. I think you may have summed up what my gut was trying to tell me. The weird hesitation I couldn’t shake even though Jim seems to be a nice guy is more about me than him. Being almost two weeks into NC, I know I am not ready for a relationship because I still have a ton of work to do on myself. I was thinking a date is just a date, but like you said, it would be a distraction. Also, I think I kind of want it to get back to the EU AC that I’m hanging out with someone else as awful as that sounds. YIKES. I can’t believe I just wrote that… (but it’s true).
McKenzieM,
I must admit I’ve been freaking out of the potencial of being an EUM as well, and I actually was one (its just recently that I don’t cringe anymore when being touched by a man – earlier I’d even cringe when touched in a friendly manner). Yet all that flushing that I wrote about happened at the same time, so I’ve noticed that being an EUM actually helped me in making the right decisions towards men who were giving minimal effort to stay in touch with me, and expecting me to do all the work, cause I wasn’t blinded by my usual delusional thoughts.
It doesn’t look like the idea of going on a date seems totally repulsive to you, so I say, don’t let your insecurities decide – in case Jim wants a relationship and you feel that you just aren’t ready for that (have your owns things to solve, only need someone as a means of revenge for the EUM/AC, etc.), I’m sure you’ll be able to act in an assertive manner and tell him that.
Search this site for Natalie’s blogs on trust. She has covered this exact thought that you’ve just put forth not too long ago. There’s also one on the guy who comes after the EUM. Sorry, don’t have the links for them, but I do know they exist as I’ve read them myself.
Oh yeah, tell me about it!:D I think you should just go on a date and try your BR knowledge on a live person, not just in theory (however bad that might sound)! At least thats what I’m doing since I found BR, and I’ve successfuly flushed several guys who tried doing sexy talk on a second or third date or were using the lazy communication all the time or were so so busy they couldn’t make time in a week to meet me.So go for it!:)
P.S. I really really hope he is not an AC, yet if he is – you still have a chance for having fun in a BR way!
McKenzieM… If you really believe in your heart that u are ready to date again than maybe you should give this guy a date.Remember it only a date , not a life long commitment to anything. Meet somewhere for coffee,drinks, dinner whatever… Use your new radar detection unit & absorb the information he is giving you… Is your choice either way..
“Tension=something was sending you on a fight or flight response.”
Thanks for the feedback, ladies. I have to chuckle though because I actually wound up marrying the guy! We’ve been married 21 years now though I have struggled over the years with intimacy issues and doubts, even to the point of a recent, brief emotional affair that I have shared on this site.
Your comments made me think of other times where I have felt that same tension after sharing on personal levels in a recovery group I belong to. I have experienced, on occasion, a complete bod tenseness and shaking. I have wondered if it had to do with feeling vulnerable and if I didn’t feel vulnerable on my first date with my husband, like maybe afraid of him getting close. Before him, I chose men who weren’t capable of getting close to women, men like myself. I do agree that tension is fear, but I just don’t always know what I am afraid of.
MckenzieM. Your insecurity and skittishness is so common after what you have been through – EUM, AC, FBG, etc. You’ve lost faith in your ability to decipher who means you well and who does not. It is classic. We’ve all been through it, horrific situations that disrupt you to the core leaving no security or foundation on which to relate to another, man, woman, or beast safely and healthily. Take time for YOU. Reread all the responses to Lilly’s traumatic experience, as they suggest ways in which to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and go on. Read Natalie’s book and stay with us on this blog. You need personal, emotional space right now. Seeing someone new is probably not the best idea, at this time, because your judgement is out of whack. Any “new” person is going to look good or promising. After you are well on the road to recovery, there will be plenty of time for a relationship. When you are secure and believe you don’t need a man in your life, he’ll show up. I won’t promise you that he’ll be Mr. Right, but at least you will have equipped yourself with the skills to decipher. That’s how it happened for me. Not until I was satisfied with living my life alone and determining to remain that way, did I attract my bf. Work on yourself, Mckenzie. Don’t rush it. Sooner or later you will be okay, and you don’t have to give up on ever having the love you’re craving. BUT YOU MUST LOVE YOURSELF, FIRST.
Tink,
Thanks for your response to Mackenzie. Though it was written for her, it was very helpful for me to read. I, too, am in that place where I don’t trust anyone as far as I can throw them. And I’m naturally a very trusting person. (Too trusting, actually, is my nature. Which is probably what has gotten me into these messes.) Anyway, I feel totally shut off from men. And I have been for several months. It’s not even that I’m a “man-hater” or “bitter.” It’s more like I’m just totally neutral around them. They do nothing for me. If anything, I would cringe away if they started to talk/chat me up. Unless they are old and disabled or gay, I feel like they want something from me, and it grosses me out. Makes me want to run away, because I feel like I have nothing to give to myself right now, let alone my tried-and-true friends, let alone some dude who may or may not want to strip me of all my resources. Ugh. I want to believe what you told Mackenzie, Tink, but I seem to be drifting further and further into numbness/knee-jerk reactions against being around men (I even give men a wide berth when I’m walking out in public! I know: this isn’t normal.) And I know that that’s not fair because there are decent men out there. This feeling just seems to be getting worse instead of better, and though I am relieved to be single so as not to have to deal with beating/cheating/put-downs/subtle underminings, etc., I’m not so sure I want to continue to sink down into this “coma” of a feeling. Does anyone get me? Have you felt this way before, Tink? How did you get out of it? Should I even get out of it?
Just some basic info on ‘gut feelings’. They are a real physiological phenomna. The nervous system broadly, comprises the sympathetic & parasympathetic nervous systems. The Vegas nerve is part of the latter, & feeds info about unconcious organ functions to the brain. It travels all the way down to the gut area. Situations of severe stress cause the parasympathic nervous system to overcompensate in it’s functioning, due to activation of the flight – fight response which is modulated by the sympatic nervous system. Non concious functions are controlled by the parasympathic nervous system (heart rate, blood flow, etc). Hence, this is WHY people feel ‘sick in their gut’ when presented with an aniety producing situation. In short, your body is preparing it’s organs for a fight-fight response. Just thought it might help to share this very rudimentary explanation on this phenomena. Cheers all.
Lilly,
Big hugs for you. You’ve had a major setback but you WILL get through this.
You don’t owe this guy ANYTHING. Zippo. Nada. Nothing. You never did. In fact, it would be poetic justice to LEAVE HIM WONDERING.
He DOESN’T CARE anyway. All he cares about is HIMSELF. As if this wasn’t clear enough ALREADY, it’s underlined by the fact that he presumably wasn’t using condoms on this recent encounter. Despite a PREVIOUS PREGNANCY! Right irreseponsible, selfish ASSHOLE he is! It’s highly unlikely YOU are the ONLY person he’s been having extra marital sex with. I’d suggest getting a check up for STI’s ASAP, as some have no symptoms & undetected, can cause infertility.
Get your health attended to (including your psychological health with.counselling etc) & we can sort through the rest as the aftermath of this, unfolds for you.
Remember Lilly, you owe him NOTHING. He will know the likelihood of pregnancy from sex over a 4 day period, will be very ‘hit & miss’, depending on your ovulation cycle. Hence, deep down there’s a 80% chance (roughly) you’re not pregnant (by his reckoning, as you’re only fertile for approx 4 days, out of 28). In fact, admitting the truth will only give him MORE ammunition with which to denigrate you.
FUCH HIM. He left you STRANDED 4000 kms from home! N.C all the way for you now & who GIVES A FLYING FUCK what HE might now (wrongly) be thinking of YOU.
Think about about what YOU think of HIM, get fucking ANGRY & resolve to NEVER LOWER YOURSELF by falling for his FUCKING BULLSHIT ever again!!!
Teachable
Exactly.
Ahhh, there’s the Teach we know and love. 😉
You said everything I wanted to say much better than I could have expressed it. Kudos, Teachable.
McKenzie. I disagree with your going on a date. It sounds harmless enough, but if you are still licking your wounds he would be a distraction to make you feel better. Then what? If you REALLY deep down feel that you can handle dating so soon, then go ahead. But, what is wrong with taking a little time out!!???
It’s for YOU. If you want to go out, you can do it with a girlfriend. I’m not saying you should isolate yourself from men indefinitely, heck no. I’m the last one to tell you that, but certainly 2-3 months is reasonable until the fire has burned out, and the wound has at least a scab.
Oh Rev. I DO KNOW how tough it is. Not to say I a rship guru. Hell, no. But, in my case it was only one MF. The MM. I think of all the rships we can be engaged in, being the OW is the most awful self degrading experience. With men who have personality disorders, i.e, narc, sociopath, EU it’s different because it’s basically their problem. You leave or stay. Not to be simplifying it because I haven’t had that experience. But with a MM, you are an equal participant is destroying yourself and everything good and wholesome about you goes straight down the drain because of the immorality attached. For me, Rev, it was worse than my husband’s demise. I really and truly HATED myself and that’s an awful thing. When I initiated NC is was extremely difficult but at the same time so liberating. There was no way in hell I was going back into it again. But, if you remember, after a few months of unbearable loneliness I started the online dating madness. The types of men on there were a major insult to my intelligence, but at least I began to learn about all the assorted f—ers out there because prior to the MM I’d been happily married for 25years. It came to a point that I felt stupid spending the inordinate amount of time (I’m retired) on the dating site, and coming up empty. So then I abruptly quit that. After more time went by I met this man (my bf) through my sister. I was terribly AFRAID that he would be an EUM. But, fortunately I had already read Natalie’s book, read several self help books, enlisted a good therapist and read BR until I thought my eyes would fall out. But included in all that it was my determination. I happen to be a remarkably resilient person who views any type of adversity in my life as a battle. And, I WIIL WIN. While going through the grief accompanying NC, I was like a human sponge soaking up all the sh*t I’d seen and heard about and squeezing it all out until I was fresh and new. I refused to succumb to heartbreak. I have a will of iron, when I choose to use it. Unfortunately, the same way that it works for my benefit, it can work to my detriment, also. At that time my feelings about men were also ambivalent, like yours are now. But, I decided to trust my gut this LAST TIME. When I first saw him and engaged with him it was so different than any other experience I’d had since being widowed. I felt immediately comfortable and did not have to put on any airs to make him like me, because I really didn’t care if he did or not. And, when we were at the beginning, I was working overtime trying to find major faults and any signs that I should run. There were none. And, so far we have a firm foundation to build on. If it comes tumbling down I know I will be fine. Rev, if it’s been a long while since you’ve had a good man, don’t close yourself off. It is VERY HARD to trust and to BELIEVE and to have FAITH. But one day you have to. You’ve been on BR long enough to recognize who is a good bet and who is bad news. If you are not meeting anyone decent, make changes. There are a few good men out there. It does still happen. The big difference is that now that we are older, they’re going to have some kind of baggage. That a fact, unless you’re willing to hook up with a 16yr old. But, YOU DECIDE what you can and want to deal with. It’s all about YOU. He should handle his own issues. That’s what two well-adjusted adults do. I’m sure I haven’t said one thing to help you, but I want you to know that I am totally supporting you. You DESERVE your share of the pie. Don’t you think? I think so.
The reason I’ve told McKenzie to wait a little while is because there are so many kinds of AC vultures out there. If she is not strong enough she will convey this. If it is the wrong type of guy, she’ll be in the sh*t all over again. Men are not nearly as smart as we women are, but when it comes to recognizing an opportunity to exploit and “get over” on you, they’re geniuses in that respect. We have to be well armed and anticipating any kind of crap could possibly come up, before we put ourselves out there. I know you can do it, if that is what you want. If you don’t, Rev, that’s fine, too. (((hugs)), Tink.
Tinkerbell,
That was such a great comment! Thanks so much for taking the time to answer me. I’m just at a loss for what to do right now, and it scares me because I’m not getting any younger, but yet I feel like I may be even a couple of YEARS away from being ready to date again. Right now, I’m afraid that I will scare all the elusive “good guys” away from me. Not so much scared of attracting assclowns as I practically have a PhD in them now. You’re so right about it being very hard to trust and believe and have faith. I’m lacking all three at the moment, but hoping to someday make it back to shore. Thanks for all of your words of encouragement. Believe me, they make a difference.
Ladies, thanks for sharing this conversation, it was very useful for me too. I´m completely at the same place as Revolution right now.
The funny this is I just came back from a week-long trip with my ex husband and our kids, he asked me to come along because it was the only way they would spend some time with him (they haven´t forgiven him for living with this children-hating witch). Witch wouldn´t be told about it – yes I was cast in the role of OW which is really idiotic considering she was the OW at some time.
So it was a complete recipe for disaster and emotional turmoil for me. The weird thing is, it wasn´t. I felt so indifferent to him romantically, and just enjoyed the wonderful landscapes, walking through rainy woods and looking at the deer and wild boars and having fun with my kids.
Ex husband didn´t attempt anything sexual though he did call me by the nickname he used to have for me at the beginning of our relationship (I didn´t do the same). I don´t think he was aware of it.
I thought it would be nice to be with someone I got along with and who treated me kindly but I felt eons removed from that possibility. I´m so dissappointed by the series of ACs and EUMs I´ve met, and by my ex husband´s history of wishywashyness that I can´t imagine opening up to someone new.
Many eons ago, when I was an undergrad, I used to carpool with a friends husband and their daughters. This dude always gave me the heebie jeebies though he never did anything bad in my presence. I chastised myself for feeling negative towards him, maybe I was being snobbish because he was dirty, fixed cars, smoked, was generally kinda trashy. It turned out he raped both of the daughters, one aborted, I helped the other through the birth process. Somehow, as I aged, I was more likely to give folks the benefit of the doubt, maybe its my strong Socialism. After the AC, I did a lot of self reflection and maybe too much self criticism. My analysis reminded me that every damn man I have dated since coming west has set off my spidey senses. The stalker was sooo blatant that I bailed after date two but the rest I gave the benefit of the doubt to and paid for it. All of them from different backgrounds, socioeconomics, different appearance but they all at one point set my senses tingling, not in a good way. Since the AC, the few on line dudes I have gone out with have made me uneasy. Although I do not always know why at first I have re learned to trust my senses, sometimes they’re frauds, sometimes dishonest, sometimes many things in combination.
Ladies, from the bottom of my heart thank you. I got something from every single comment and have taken everything on board. I have read and re-read all your comments. I’m sorry I can’t reply to each one, but I’m in a complete mess and I can hardly function. I just cannot take it all in, what just happened. I have an appointment tomorrow with a therapist and I will start to try and pull myself together. Thank you all so much.
Lily, I read what has happened to you quite late and just wanted to further send strength and love to you. I know what it is like to be pulled back in by someone and feel like there is nobody else in the world out there for you than this one guy. But it is so not true! I am just over 3 years No Contact, and whilst I didn’t have half the heartache you have had with the loss of your baby and a real slime ball that keeps reeling you back in, I didn’t ever think there was another human being out there in the world that would like me other than the ex. It is totally not true. I know I could not think about meeting someone else for a while, you just need to have time to move on, but since then I have met so many men over the last 3 years, in various shapes and sizes. It is a gradual process but I cannot stress how much benefit you will get for having time on your own to really really get to love yourself again. I actually don’t think I ever knew how to before, and it is bloody hard work, but keep focusing and keep spending time with good good people, that’s what I do. I tell myself how loved I am by everyone who is dear to me. I say it over and over and don’t make a man the focus of my life anymore. I really really feel for what you are going through. Let out all the tears and do speak to someone. Do not go anywhere near that guy, he is hideous beyond words to have done this to you. But you have a choice now. I think Natalie said that once, self esteem is all about choices, and you can choose you now. hugs from afar but everyone here is sending their kind spirits to you xxx
How you tie this up will of course be yr choice Lilly, & I understand the feeling of wanting to admit to him, that you didn’t mean it when.you implied you might not be using contraception. I truely do. Think that through though.
What would be PURPOSE of you setting him straight on this? Presumably, so you could attempt to get him to ADMIT his lack of emotional availability, which triggered your actions.
YOU ALREADY KNOW he is UNAVAILABLE though, not just emotionally but TOTALLY b.c HE IS MARRIED.
Yep. MARRIED. And NOT to YOU.
I make no comment on the OW issue as I haven’t experienced it so it’s not something I can help with. I WILL say though, it’s important in life to do our best treat other’s how WE would like to be treated. If the idea of another woman having an affair with YOUR hubby down the track one day doesn’t appeal, & of.her.even.hoping to maybe destroy YOUR marriage, so she can ‘steal’ him away from you & have YOUR HUSBAND who you thought you would be with FOREVER, all to HERSELF, then you might want to use this as a starting point for getting your MORAL COMPASS back on track (& I say that not with judgement but love, assuming he is still a MM).
That aside, returning to my main point, this man is NOT going to VALIDATE you, your stillborn baby, or even your RELATIONSHIP, which again, presumably consists of clandestine meetings etc, EVER. THIS is really my main point.
You are not a bad person for any of the things which have happened. You are simply a woman who has made some poor / unfortunate choices which are now bearing down on you like a freight train, as the CONSEQUENCES of those decisions, have well & truely come home to roost.
The loss of your unborn baby was TRAGIC Lilly, however, aside from getting the grief counselling needed, I think by focusing on that event, as traumatic, terrible & forever life changing as it was, you’re at risk of missing the bigger picture, & in fact AVOIDING what probably feels like a very harsh bottom line.
THIS MAN HAS NOTHING TO OFFER YOU & THIS R.SHIP IS FOR ALL INTENT & PURPOSES OVER. That is, unless you WANT a secretive,
THE best comment ever!!!
r.ship which will continue to DESTROY you, or even if he DID leave his wife for you, to KNOW he will be highly likely to then have an affair, or number of them even, b.hind YOUR back too!
Hence, the point I think you need to really explore, perhaps in therapy, is WHAT ON EARTH you could possibly see in someone who has treated you with such CRUELTY? I say ALL of this with gentle hugs as I know, it’s hard to hear but the time has come to focus on YOU now & right now, YOU are hurting very badly.
People who truely care, even just on an anonymous blog like BR, don’t just piss in each others pocket’s Lilly. Sometimes, they tell each other what they NEED to hear, not what we WANT to hear.
I don’t know if deep down long ago you hoped to eventually be in a LEGITIMATE r.ship with this man or not, but if you ever did, after ALL he has done, you ought NOT be wanting that NOW. THIS was your DISCOVERY PHASE (gone way over line as next time I’m sure you’ll reverse PRONTO at the words I’m MARRIED, however, we ALL make mistakes & these are ALLOWED so long as we LEARN from them). Are you LIKING any of how you’ve been treated in this whole stinkin mess? HELL NO! GOOD! As I say, get damned well fucking PISSED OFF & USE YOUR ANGER TO PROPEL YOURSELF OUT OF THIS FUCKWIT’S ORBIT FOR ONCE & FOR ALL! That is what anger is FOR Lilly! It exists to PROTECT YOU. Get in touch with it & USE IT to SAVE YOURSELF.
Big hugs. Will be thinking of you the next few days.
And Lilly, absolutely UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES beat yourself up for ANY of what has happened b.c that wont change shit. What will change things is your ANGER. Your INDIGNATION. The sting of being HUMILIATED. AGAIN. AND AGAIN & AGAIN.
NO MORE Lilly. Only YOU can end this. Make that CHOICE & soon you will slowly start to recover. xx
Remember Lilly, re ppl who are unfaithful ‘if they do it WITH you, they’ll do it TO you’. Is THAT what you want? A scumbag guy who AT BEST will eventually CHEAT on YOU TOO?
I don’t think you want that Lilly. You are way TOO SMART for that & what’s more, you KNOW it.
So deep down, all you have to do now is make ONE VERY SIMPLE CHOICE. Do you want more of the same with your life continuing this downward spiral or do you you deserve better? It’s YOUR CALL Lilly, but YOU HAVE to CHOOSE & if the choice is the LATTER, you then need to develop a plan (possibly with your therapist) for how you’re gunna back it up.
Don’t worry about taking too much of anything in right now Lilly as frankly, you’re deeply emotionally traumatised by this whole awful saga with this guy, your stillborn child, the lot.
Just listen to us here at BR for a little while & let us be yoir guides while you pull yourself back together.
Here are concrete things I suggest you do next, as in right now, today, whenever you read this.
1. Eat something. Food is important & easily forgotten when distraught.
2. Sleep. Your body, mind & spirit are very stressed. Let them find solace in sleep.
3. DO NOT CONTACT THE MM UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES (We can debate this another time when your head is clearer).
4. Take a bath (if possible) & as many of them per day as needed.
5. Reach out for support to whoever is safe for you disclose to ie. counsellor, friend, whoever.
6. Read material which will aid your state of mind (like this blog, nat’s books, esp the no contact rule, etc) even if only in short snatches
6. Hang in there!
Xx
Lilly,
Teachable is so on with her advice!!!!! Great contribution!!!!
Time to make some changes that will benefit you, as the current path is so self-destructive.
Time to join Team Lilly! It’s your choice!
Teachable
You do SHOUT a LOT:), but what you are saying is true.
Being an OW is absolutely miserable.
Lilly. I have not said a word in all of this because it was so emotionally upsetting for me to even put into words anything helpful or supportive. It breaks m heart to see a sweet thing like you being treated so badly. PLEASE, PLEASE, listen to Teachable. Print it out, stick it on your wall and read it every day. YOU HAVE TO GET OVER ALL OF THIS, if you are ever going to have a decent life. Always remember. Nothing stays the same forever. One day you will look back and even though you will continue to feel the loss of your child, you WILL NOT miss that scoundrel. Help yourself reach that time asap. All the best, Tink. If I can help in anyway via cybernet, please ask.
All of my posts are via smartphone mymble. I use caps as I can’t use itallics, & don’t mean them as shouting, but more for emphasis.
Rev, you’re right, I’m SLOWLY getting myself back. VERY slowly. As of yesterday, after almost 2 mths of living on thin air, lol, I now have a meagre income, so FOOD at least ought no longer be such a struggle.
I’m also in with a real chance of WINNING a current quasi- legal battle which I’m fighting re my financial situation (amoung other things). I dare not get my hopes up but I’ve already won round one & definately here quietly (or not so, in Lilly’s case) doing pushups preparing to deliver a final knockout punch.
Just a matter of time for me now Rev’s. I must stay patient & conserve what little energy I have for what lies ahead. 😉
Teachable
I wasn’t actually criticising!
When I read your comments I hear, in my head, your australian accent, and turn of phrase, and it makes me smile.
And Rev’s if I win this thing, it means my HOUSE is saved & will be paid off, very close to entirely (& entirely by other means if I can win this battle first). The stakes are SO high it’s no wonder I waver at times. My house means EVERYTHING to me. Growing up poor & homeless as a kid was an experience that fuelled my determination as an adult to take full responsibility for my financial future, starting with, buying & owning a home outright so I would NEVER be homeless again. I was DETERMINED to achieve this WITHOUT a man or relationship as I KNEW that co-ownership of property would NOT be sufficient for me to feel secure. I am SO CLOSE to achieving this once & for all, yet due to my current situation, also fearful it will be wrongfully snatched out from under me, just as I was entering the home straight.
If I lose this battle I would have sufficient equity to sell & buy a small unit outright but that will NOT meet my needs, due to probs with noise pollution. I am a musician. HERE I have a proper fully soundproof home recording studio. I can record whole albums in my own home (& this is my future plan, as a hobby though, no longer professionally). In a unit I would barely be able to strum an acoustic guitar, let alone sing, & my drums would definately have to go. I would certainly no longer have space for a recording studio let alone sound proofing! Here I also have room to take in foster kids, with them having their own seperate lounge & bathroom, so they can feel a level of independence, with their own ‘space’. Another goal for when my health returns. Again in a small unit, I would not be able to do that as there would be no room.
Here I also have an OFFICE which I need, as I intend to persue my academic goals & to eventually become self employed. When this is all over, I will never again work for a ‘boss’ as a full time wage earner. I’ve got the professional runs on the board in my sector & when my eductn is complete I already know what I’m capable of. No more bullying corporate environments for lil ol teach here. The time has come to reinvent myself & step out on my own. The office I WOULD possibly have room for in a smaller place but who wants a home devoid of my other real passions; caring for troubled kids & music? No thankyou!
So (being selfish & talking abt me here now) my gut says at least this: FIGHT TEACH. Fight this one like you have never fought before. Take every bit of fire in your belly from ALL the hurt & pain you have EVER experienced, the whole damned lot of it & focus it like a laser beam on just this ONE fight. Fight as if your LIFE depends on it. Because, now that I cannot work for the foreseeable future due to my disability issues, I feel like it DOES!
Righty ho. I think I’m ready to face the day now. Love to all. xx
Ladies, I’ve done it! I have blocked EVERY source of contact I could find. I received an email from “it” today with an attachment related to work and this message. (He didn’t even bother to use a greeting or sign off):
AC: “Here is the attachment as promised. You often contemplate ending contact with me and flying solo – now would be a good time for that.”
That was all. At first I cried and felt sick with anxiety. But then I remembered Teach and her telling me to get ANGRY. I could have chosen to ignore it and this would no doubt have been the best thing, but I sent “it” this:
“Hi ……
I was always flying solo. Your rather pathetic attempt at being cruel has very little effect on me now. I’ve had plenty of time to think over the last few days. You have zero ability to show any care or empathy for anyone other than yourself and I don’t want anyone like that in my life.
I acted badly last week and for that I’m sorry. You had every right to be upset, but you did NOT have the right to deny me a chance to explain, you did NOT have the right to leave me stranded and you did NOT have the right to prolong my suffering by ignoring my pathetic attempts to communicate with you.
It appears you are hell bent on punishing me for reasons only known to yourself. I could allow myself to make some excuses for you, but I won’t; not any more. I’m going to put myself first. I have needs. I’ve experienced heartbreak and my feelings matter, my experience matters.
It, whatever it was, is certainly over, so do not contact me anymore, even this email was unnecessary. I will now BLOCK all sources of contact.
Lilly”
Whether right or wrong I’ve sent it and it’s over. I feel sick and I’m trembling, but I’ve taken my first real step away from this evil, cruel bastard. There will NEVER be another time when I write on this blog that I have given in to him.
Now I will grieve for my precious little baby. My heart feels like it’s in pieces, and I’m in terrible pain, but I will do this. I cannot express how grateful I am to Natalie and everyone here, thank you all so much.
Lilly,
He really is a piece of shit. That was a vicious little message. And he does not deserve any of your apologies. But it doesn’t matter who said what, the important thing is to get your own life and health back on track.
Major piece of shit. Unbelievable! Lilly, whatever you have to do to disentangle yourself professionally, DO IT NOW! Ask for help and advice from other colleagues if you need to. Talk to a lawyer if that’s appropriate. Don’t let work and career considerations suck you back in on ANY level. Your career will be fine. Worry about that later. Take care of your emotional health FIRST.
I’m glad you’re getting angry, because anger can be a great ally and a source of tremendous energy. Use this energy to help you run, not walk away from this bastard as fast as you can!!
lily, i have not commented much but i’ve followed your story. i am proud of you that you blocked him and have chosen YOU. it is now time to exhale and heal. a book that has really helped me besides nat’s books is ‘getting past your break up by susan j. elliott’. it will give you tools and exercises to get past the trauma of the relationship and how to grow into a healthy person.
i just want to give you the biggest ((hug)).
WOW, Lilly. I felt the gravity of each and every word you wrote to him. Talk about a strong, classy message from a woman full of self-respect. You went out with a quiet, but powerful, bang. If this dude is conscious at all (which is doubtful), he will feel the full impact of your words. If he doesn’t, YOU will feel them. I am so proud of you. Talk about balls, Lilly. Now please, get some rest before the next step in this process, which is properly grieving your son. Sending you warm, calm, restful thoughts, dear.
Lilly I am so glad you did this!!! I am proud of you, please please please do not be involve with married men anymore, they belong to other women, just like us, who have feelings and love their husbands. THIS SH@T do not deserve you, he does not care about your feelings, his wife and kids!!! Concentrate on yourself, you will meet nice guy eventually, who will love and care about you and will make you happy!!! x
@ Lilly,
That is an AWESOME final note to that disgusting asshole: that is IT, that says EVERYTHING, there is NOTHING to say that could efface the quality of those words, or their truth.
Fantastic news that you did what you needed to do for you: I am so glad that you told him off, before you blocked him! I am sorry, for anyone who disagrees with me, that bastard did need to have his stupid arrogant scumbag ass told off properly before the NC door hit him in his behind1
WAY TO GO LILLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“When I was leaving the abusive ex, a few people said “You picked him”.”
Grace hopefully they didn’t mean because you picked him therefore you deserved him to hit you.
To me it kind of comes across that way.
We may pick them but do we deserve what we get?
I am in a major struggle right now and one thing I am trying to get my head round is did I deserve all what has happened because I chose him because I didn’t listen to sound advice because I am a fool and thought I knew what was best for me.
“You’re looking at a mountain of crap and wondering how you can fix it. Just walk away. There’s no good way to end this, just end it.”
I am looking at my own pile of crap now thinking it is all self inflicted there is no fixing it so much damage to myself. Not many of us get to walk away without damage.
Lily I hope you are okay and got something out of your therapy session xx
Tulipa
No, they didn’t mean I deserved it (and if they did, who cares), but rather you’re the only person who can help yourself. Even all the charities and shelters can’t stop a woman from going back.
I’ve worked with a charity that helps trafficked women. The women are offered counselling, support, alternative accommodation, an escape plan yet it’s still down to them to take the final step. And sometimes they won’t. They feel helpless and are afraid of their captors, but the risk of staying put far outweighs the risk of taking up our help. Once you get away from these bullies, they often just let you go. Their power is magnified in our minds. Of course there are extreme nutjob exceptions,so don’t do anything reckless.
We cannot get these women (or often, more accurately, girls) out against their will. We don’t blame them for feeling afraid and helpless but we do wish they understood there is a choice.
There is a difference between taking responsibility for yourself and blaming yourself. When your self esteem is shaky it seems like there is no difference. But it’s vast.
“Not many of us get to walk away without damage”. I used to think that, but now I know it is entirely possible when you let go of the notion that there is something wrong with you. You acted in a way that is quite common, understandable, well documented with recognised, effective remedies. You need to get out of your head that you are uniquely flawed. You’re not.
It took me years to realise that I’m pretty much like everyone else. A human being of the human race. Yay.
“The real problem with these people isn’t that they are assclowns, it’s that we end up doing things we don’t believe in”
Exactly, and this is what has happened to me I don’t want to go into details and I certainly know my situation is not unique in anyway.
It took me too long to heed what people were telling me and I have not walked away without paying a huge price.
You are so right it is time to take a lot more care and responsibility for myself though it will take some time to not blame myself for how it ended but at least at long long last it has ended.
Thank you for your wisdom, Grace, it is always helpful and a lot of food for thought.
Thank you too, Teachable, I will take on board what you said I have often thought how F’d in the head I must be for going back and going back. But if I were to pull it apart there would be far more to it than I am f’d in head.
PS there was no pysical violence to the relationship.
Perfect Lilly. Just perfect. Now STAY angry for as long as it takes to surgically remove this dishonest, pathetic EXCUSE for a ‘man’ from your heart. I PROMISE you in time this WILL happen Lilly & you WILL finally be FREE of the terrible anguish you are now experiencing. It is CRITICAL you stay the NC course though. NO MATTER WHAT.
If your work means you can’t avoid contact, then FUCK IT, get your resume out there, & so long as you can secure your housing & $ for bills & food, QUIT YOUR JOB & find a new one.
I have DONE THIS Lilly, in backing up the decision to leave a relationship behind. It was a job I LOVED but sadly, it ALSO placed me in harms way in terms of ongoing contact with someone I needed to break away from (this was many years ago now & it was my first final seperation from my now deceased ex AC). You know what happened Lilly? I was subsequently offered ANOTHER JOB doing the exact same type of work I LOVED so much at the time ELSEWHERE! In hindsight, it was TOO EASY but I had to take a calculated risk / leap of faith first & BACK MYSELF. And I SURVIVED. And you will survive too Lilly.
Time will tell what lies ahead employment wise for you (you will have to assess this) but YES STAY BLOODY ANGRY for AS LONG AS IT TAKES to cut the psychic chord with this creep. You now NEED to HARNESS the ENERGY of that anger & to USE IT to propel yourself onto a totally different track in terms of your relationship with yourself AND others. That anger is your FRIEND Lilly. It’s trying to SAVE you. LISTEN TO WHAT IT IS TELLING YOU & REFUSE TO INVALIDATE YOURSELF. THAT is what HE wants you to do but YOU are in control now, NOT HIM. This is now ‘TEAM STEAL MAGNOLIA’ & myself & many others here at BR are ON YOUR TEAM.
GREAT THINGS lie ahead for you Lilly but it’s time to cut YOUR OWN BS & GET SERIOUS about ALL that has gone down here & YOUR PART IN IT b.c this IS serious business. This is YOUR LIFE we are talking about AND your very SANITY.
I will now say something few if anyone here would dare say to you. I speak from LOVE as a woman as you may recall, who as young teen, ALSO lost an unborn child, in my case MURDERED IN UTERO at the hands of a violent AC. Hence, I feel some leeway in addressing the following point. Steal yourself as what I’m about to say, WILL sting, but remember it is said with LOVE & COMPASSION, not judgement. So, here it is straight up:
It’s time to let go of the high moral ground (some unkindly call it ‘victim status’ however I think in your case that is a misnomer. You HAVE been victimised by this man, although sadly, you played a part in enabling that to occur). In any event I suspect it has been easy to UNCONCIOUSLY fall into this mindset with regards to the loss of your unborn baby especially. You’ve posted a LOT about this & OF COURSE it WAS a TERRIBLE tradgedy so that’s normal & OK. You need to TAKE RESPONSIBILTY, however, for ALL that has happened here, IN IT’S WIDER CONTEXT. This does NOT mean to beat yourself up about it or mentally denigrating yourself. On the contrary, it simply means focusing on YOUR PART in all that has happened, instead of HIS RESPONSE OR LACK THEREOF to the loss of your unborn child (except for how this relates to your part in things).
Firstly, at some point, YOU made the choice to have an affair with a MM. That he then turned out to be a COMPLETE ASSHOLE when you (presumably) ACCIDENTLY fell pregnant to him, is frankly, no great surprise. After all, HE’S MARRIED & I’m guessing most blokes seeking a bit of nookie on the side don’t bargain for a BABY as part of the ‘deal’. He though, by failing to practise safe sex, is equally responsible for this having occurred, so that is not all on you (& as I don’t know if you perhaps merely accidently forgot to take contraception I wont continue down this line). Point being, we all know his part in this. That has NEVER CHANGED I.e. The guy has behaved lower than a COCKROACH in response to a very sensitive & traumatic experience which HE was partly RESPONSIBLE for creating & has subsquently continued to behave like said cockroach. We GET IT. Now though, I think you would benefit you most by turning your attention to focusing on YOU not HIM. eg Questions to ponder are things like what triggered you falling for re-establishing contact with him beyond the boundaries you had set? What made you vulnerable to him again? How can you avoid a repeat of this if a similar situation arises in future? (b.c it WILL Lilly, mark my words, it’s highly he will never give up trying to have a crack, so getting out of this will be all down to you. AC’s are like that. They stick like effin superglue until you totally annihilate them). What made YAou vulnerable to becoming an OW in the FIRST PLACE? Answering these Q’s for yourself are the things which will help you move forward 🙂
Next, you need to mentally seperate grieving your unborn baby from grieving the END OF THIS RELATIONSHIP. Although, inextricably linked, these are SEPERATE ISSUES & it is the LATTER which is causing so much pain as until now, deep down, you haven’t been able to fully break your psychic connection to this man. You need to GET TO WORK ON THE LATTER LILLY. You have now made that call that it’s over so you now need to back yourself 100%. Hopefully your therapist will help you with this as your situation DOES warrent professional help. No shame in that all. It’s the KINDEST thing you can do for yourself at this point (as well as thoroughly immerse yourself in Nat’s NC rule ebook)
It’s time to let go of whatever you were hoping for with guy. IT AINT GUNNA HAPPEN. He turned out to be a LOSER. You don’t WANT a loser b.c YOU’RE a WINNER. A winner made of STEEL & as pretty as a magnolia!
You’re really getting there with the flush of anger shown in that post! And getting rid of all of his contact info? THREE CHEERS, WAY TO GO!!
When you’re going through hell Lilly KEEP GOING. Eventually this fucker will disappear from yr rear vision mirror & you will be FREE & DELERIOUSLY HAPPY to be shot of him.
I onced ‘loved’ the violent AC who willfully murdered my unborn baby Lilly. Today, almost 30 yrs later I am fighting to put him IN JAIL where he damned well BELONGS!!
xxx T
PS I’m not siggesting yr MM was physically violent btw but he CERTAINLY has been emotionally abusive. He’s emotionally battered you badly all you’ve been able to think about so far (mostly) is the loss of yr unborn child. Except that isn’t the whole picture of what occurred in yr situation.
Your unborn baby is AT PEACE now Lilly, along with mine, wherever their little souls go. Your unborn baby wants YOU to be at peace now too. It’s ok to LET GO OF YOUR BABY so you can LET GO of this MM too now Lilly. It’s safe to let them BOTH go. In fact, I’m betting that’s EXACTLY what your unborn baby would want for you. You have your special baby box of trinkets & your baby will always be a part of you. I don’t have ANY trinkets at ALL but my lost baby is STILL a part of me. Mine would be 28 yrs old now. See? 28 years later I have NEVER forgotten (soz, little teary now). Your’s will be too, forever. I promise.
The AC wont be though & neither do you want him to be. Make THIS your focus & honor your baby’s memory but not allowing that fuckface to HARM or ABUSE your baby’s mommy EVER AGAIN. This is now your mission. xxx
No offence taken at all mymble. Realised I ought to have added smiley face after posting to show my ‘tone’ but too late as no edit function. Was just explaining that’s all 🙂
& yes you picked my accent, even via the written word! Too funny! lol
Stay the NC course Shyner. It isn’t easy but becomes more so with the passage of time. To hell with wondering if HE ok. Return your thoughts to YOU & the awful way he has treated you & how terribly this has eroded YOUR self esteem. LOVE the mindfulness course! Wanting to do one myself! Hang in there! T 🙂
Err no Tulipa. Ppl who say the crap you allude to are FULL OF SHIT & should be AVOIDED LIKE THE PLAGUE. We do not know on first meeting an AC, or violent partner that they are so. We are not IDIOTS. If we KNEW we WOULDN’T date them to start with. The error we make is in both failing to recognise an AC or abuse once it emerges & then not leaving quickly enough once we do realise this. Many complex factors come into play re the latter, so even that is not a simple case of ‘well you must be fucked b.c you STAYED’. Many stay longer than preferable for example out of a lack of financial resources to get out/lack of housing options/no means of being finacially self supporting & having kids together etc.
Teach, I’m chuckling here reading your comments. You came out swinging, girl. Woman after my own heart. 😉
I, for one, am on Team Steel Magnolia too. D’ja hear that, Lilly?
By the way, Teach. Take the Enneagram personality test when you get a chance. I think you’re an Eight. Eights are great to have in your corner. 😉 Love the fight in you, girl. You’ll come out on top of this case no matter what happens–you already know that.
~flops down in corner spent after fighting my own battles here~
I have done the Myers Briggs (I think it is?) personality test Rev. Can’t recall what I was. Vaguely EN something or other? Will check it out & do again sometime 🙂
And I hope you’re right about my sitch here. It will be a long time, as in years, before I’m able to return to work so this is IT for me financially.
Another little win yesterday. Due to my now meagre income not even meeting my weekly expenses, (which have already had all the ‘fat’ cut), I was assessed for a food program yesterday, which on getting great detail of my situation, blew me away by offering free WEEKLY food assistance for the coming FEW MTHS until my final hearing of appeal comes up. I couldn’t believe it, as thought they’d give me a few items & tell me not to return for 12 mths, as most places do. They actually said, I’ve worked & paid taxes all my life, & they see ‘all sorts of ppl in diff situations’ & they WANTED me to have this level of assistance b.c they reckoned I DESERVED IT, as my predicament hasn’t been caused by any sort of financial mismanagement on my part & has instead occurred due to circumstances beyond my control. I left there with a CHOCOLATE MUFFIN (amoung other things) & I can tell you I have NEVER been so GRATEFUL for a CHOCOLATE MUFFIN in all my life!
So now, I can use my small income toward bills at least & know I will still have food. Absolutely amazing! The puss sucking gutterslugs I’m fighting think they can starve people into dropping their cases, or that sick people will be too ill & fragile to challenge them. Err, no. I don’t know if I will win ornot (although noises at lower appeal levels suggest I’m in with a good chance) but I damned well intend to give it my best shot!
Critically Rev’s, after a long time in a very dark tunnel I had to believe there was a light at the end of, even though I couldn’t SEE it, I’m starting to feel HOPEFUL. Maybe I WILL win?! I certainly BELIEVE I can as I’ve been wrongly effed over.
I sometimes now think, how FANTASTIC it would be if I DO win. Only little tiny snatches as I don’t want to be too disappointed if I don’t, but really, imagine if I DO Rev’s. It will make a HUGE difference to my life, even though there will still be a series of flow on battles, to be fought & hopefully won, after that.
As this all unfolds, I have to constantly make decisions as to my next move, just like a game of chess, trying to keep my eye on the goal. I keep checking in with my gut for direction, but it’s somewhat deadened to the finer points of play (probably due to the effects of depression). So all I have to go on is my own ‘bigger picture’ & what my gut says about that, which I’ve already explained.
And all the while, I’m ‘limping along’ physically, so ill, that I’m only firing on 2 cylinders instead of 8. I’m not improving pysically yet but I can feel a mental shift.
Just like Lilly, I’ve made my call & now I’m committed to backing it up, come what may. If I crash & burn it’s on me but at least I tried. The real ‘losers’ in life are those who are too scared to ever enter the ring.
So, BRING IT, I say!
Teach,
You keep that hope alive, girl. Why couldn’t you win this? Give it all you got, and then let the chips fall where they may. You are one smart cookie, Teach. It’d be hell to go up against you, I’d imagine. Give them a run for their money.
Trying to keep it brief so as not to try Nat’s seemingly neverending patience with semi-off-topic discussions. But please keep us posted of your progress as much as you can, girl. I light up whenever I read your comments. “The force is strong in this one.” 😉
By the way, the Enneagram is a much more complex system than Myers-Briggs. Check it out when the dust settles, love.
Lilly,
Sending you big huge cyber hugs today! You’re on my mind & I too, am very proud of you for sticking up for yourself, & telling that that AC to take a long walk off a short bridge!!
xxxT
Teachable, you have brought out the fight in me when I didn’t think I had anything left. Thank you for being so supportive when you have so much going on. It upsets me that I cannot offer anything back, but I can offer a big huge supportive hug to a truly inspiring person.
BR ladies, I have printed out every single comment here and when I feel the urge to cry I read them. I would take up so much space if I replied to everyone, but I would like to say that every single comment is a source of comfort and strength. I’m still struggling because of the contraception lie, but I am not going to put myself in further emotional danger and I will just have to live with it. Thank you all for being there.
Lilly, I saw your comment above about you finally blocking the assclown and going NC. I am SOOOOOO happy for you! I hope you manage to stick with it, and whenever the going gets tough, come back and post here for support. 🙂
No probs Lilly. I don’t post in depth to many here as yr right, life here is rather topsy turvy, however, I know how it feels to lose a baby to an abusive AC.
Yrs may not have been physically violent but he has been emotionally abusive. Just like mine wasn’t married (& sadly, I was a mere child at the time). Still, the result is the same. We lost our babies & I know how much that hurts. No sweat of my nose to reach out to you as one mum of a lost angel to another. I hope yr feeling a little better. x
Rev, I reckon yr right. Just do my best & let the cards land where they may. So many complexities, other battles, spins offs too here to be dealt with (I wont elaborate now as would go off topic). Head spins when I consider the big pic. Mental vertigo… just doing the next right thing & taking things day by day. Thanku for caring. Tbh, not a lot of ppl do (ie no real family, & I shed a lot of so called ‘friends’ when I retired from music professionally, a decade bk. Since then was just too busy working & studying 7 days a wk to replace them). A small few care though & that’s all I need. x
I think I’ve finally reached my breaking point with AC. I think I finally see that the relationship has been an illusion on my part, but his part is that he is a narcissistic future faker. It just has taken me 5 years to realize this.
The latest and hopefully the last time I go NC is the weekend coming up and AC has not been heard from since yesterday afternoon when previous to this calls had been into the evenings as well as daytime. But the reason that I have not heard from him is that he is seeing someone else as has been a pattern that occurred for a period in December and January on the weekends. I discovered this through his phone records because I was wondering at that time what was happening when I would hear from him all week and then nothing at all over the weekend. I talked to him about how I felt my gut was telling me that he was seeing someone else and he told me no and had other excuses for not being in contact–excuses that were believable from what I know about him and his health, etc.
Anyways, my stomach has been twisting and turning since he stopped contacting me Wednesday afternoon and Thursday afternoon. He has no work committments on a regular basis on Thursdays and Fridays because he was put on a 3 day work week awhile ago. Thursday’s and Friday’s he may not have a work related thing to do.
My gut (and I think the sick feeling I get is my gut) telling me that he is with this OW even though he has told me that she is not someone who is at the standard of women that he wants to have in his life.
To go back a bit, we were broken up back in July 2012 and had been in contact since October 2012. He has lead me to believe that he wanted to re-establish a relationship but slowly because we tended to go for awhile and then come to a halt a few times before this. I agreed that we could take that time and see about working out the problems that were occurring before our split. I also asked him if there was anyone that he was seeing. He said no. I was leaning toward believing him because he was very strong on people telling the truth.
I am having a hard time at the moment coming to terms with finally having to stand my ground about the lying he has been doing. When I mentioned to him that my gut was telling me that he was seeing someone else those weekends that he was uncommunicative, he told me that my gut was wrong-even though what had brought me to looking at his phone record was the gut feelings I was having about those weekends.
When I say I have to stand my ground on this now, I recently had a conversation with him about my not wanting to be the OW to someone that he was interested in spending time with. That’s when he told me that he was telling this OW that he didn’t want anything more with her. The lies come in because I checked the phone record 1 last time prior to this conversation and found that the communication with her was very, very freguent and extensive for someone who wanted to put things to an end.
I want to be strong with going NC and am really afraid that I won’t be able to hold out unless I find ways to get and give myself support should I need it not to take a call from him and hear his excuse as to why he couldn’t talk to me. I become weak thinking that I am not giving him the benefit of the doubt and believing that he has other reasons for not contacting me when contact was quite regular before the weekend. I feel like I am not strong enough to finally let go of him and move into a place where I can be happy again. I have not been happy since just before our last split in July 2012. I think that he keeps coming back into my life to shake it up and to keep me from moving on. I am upset that I let him in again and again and everytime there is a break, I go down to the point where I don’t go out but to work for awhile. I don’t want to go into that hole again for the umpteenth time. I don’t have alot of support because that dwindled down because of the relationship with him.
I came to BR in hopes that I can keep myself from going into that hole of despair that has been a ongoing visitor in my life.
Karebear. I’m a bit unwell today & wrung out dealing with my own life so this is just a short reply. Everything you wrote makes perfect sense. Especially the bit about him continually returning as a way of stopping you from moving on. I recommend Nat’s ebooks. They’re a great place to start. Others here might suggest others for you also. Trust yr gut. It is yr siren system trying to warn you something is very wrong. It’s rarely wrong. In what you describe, this guy sounds full of it. You deserve much better. Any guy who has made you unhappy for the past 7 mths & has problems with simple honesty is so not.that.special (as Nat would say). I wish you well. 🙂
No worries Tulipa. All sorts of variables/factors contribute to repeatedly returning to a r.shit that is not working.
Ppl post about what these were for them on BR all the time.
After all, pretty sure no-one arrives at BR happy joyous & free! lol
And good for u for refusing to put yrself down with yr internal dialogue. What we tell to ourselves about ourselves is so important.
Re past mistakes, in the words of a friend, ‘it takes a lot of sh*t to grow a beautiful rose!’
All the best 😉
Karebear you will get help and solace staying with us and reading extensively all of Natalie’s posts and all of the comments. you cannot help but get stronger and wise up. Don’t believe a word coming out of that weasel’s mouth. Don’t you see how he has cleverly planned it so that now he can spend Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday with his new victim? Or go shopping for someone new. Flush him, honey. Stick to NC. DO NOT GIVE HIM ANOTHER MINUTE OF YOUR TIME. And BLOCK him from your phones, FB etc. etc. etc.
Natalie your website is a godsend! After reading it for a year I finally feel that things are sinking in. After dating a guy for a month (taking it slowly and really getting to know him) my gut was screaming at me to get out. I stopped and actually listened to it, spoke to him about it and lo and behold he admitted that he wasn´t interested in being in a loving relationship and that what he was currently offering was all there would ever be. After kicking him to the curb (you should have seen the look on his face) and analysing all the stuff he had told me and thinking back on his shady behaviour I have never been so proud of myself. I trusted myself and I am so glad I did!!! Thanks Natalie for all your amazing advice!