At this time of year, I hear from many people battling against what they perceive as the weighty expectations of their nearest and dearest about Christmas/The Holidays. In their heart of hearts, they don’t want to agree to the request, obligation, or assumed expectation. Yet based on this notion that because they, for instance, go to Aunt Flo’s every year or because they are somebody’s child and hence must obey even if they’re a parent themselves or simply old enough to be an actual adult, they don’t feel as if they have a choice. They don’t believe that they can decline because they’ve previously accepted.
This struggle is the same as what we wrestle with about asserting boundaries and saying no.
It’s as if we have ‘one shot’. Whatever we agree to, whether stated by us or inferred by our apparent lack of resistance, we think it removes our right to ‘change our mind’. In simple terms, we believe that previously agreeing to something means we have no right to later account for our needs, expectations, desires, feelings, and opinions.
Does the fact that somebody crossed our boundaries give them the right to continue doing so?
No one is entitled to disrespect us just because they previously benefited from our lack of self-esteem, awareness, or even foresight about what certain behaviours or decisions mean. That entitlement does not exist regardless of how we manage our boundaries.
Integrity dictates a person’s character and actions, not opportunity.
The fact that someone encounters somebody who isn’t managing their boundaries that well doesn’t give them the right to exploit this.
What should we do when we realise we no longer want to be or do something? Pretend that we don’t know better? Surely, we are allowed to grow and make aligned choices? Acting as if we have no right of reply or to take action even if delayed limits our options. We worry about offending others due to the situation no longer working for us.
We worry too much about offending!
Whether we say yes to something fair and reasonable or compromising, no one has the right to continue receiving that yes. We are entitled to reconsider instead of feeling we must enter into a permanent tacit agreement.
Our resistance to updating our nos and boundaries taps into the issue of complacency. We avoid this painful pattern when we remain conscious, aware, and present and don’t take it for granted that we can go on autopilot and that people will say and do whatever we expect. Autopilot and complacency just put us in a fantasy world where we end up feeling disappointed that people haven’t lived up to the pictures we’ve painted in our minds.
We have to continue to show up. The people in our lives have to continue to show up.
When this happens, neither person expects the other to show up as a yes-person. Instead, they care about the other person’s feelings and are aware of their own.
Okay, so let’s come back to this whole Christmas/The Holidays malarkey. If we’ve done the same thing year after year and it’s not ‘doing it’ for us anymore, it’s okay to take a breather. At the very least, it’s okay to acknowledge that these agreements aren’t enjoyable when they feel forced.
Sometimes, we go into these arrangements like the sulking, skulking kid who doesn’t want to go on holiday with their annoying parents or be caught in the same room. We go into child mode and hand over our authority to decide what we’ll do. Really, who the hell is going to enjoy anything entered into like that? I know so many people who brace themselves for this time of year. It’s like they expect to have teeth pulled without anaesthetic! If we’re honest with ourselves, sometimes we create Dynasty levels of drama in our minds about this stuff because it’s easier than admitting that we can do something about things and take action.
It’s why so many people get drunk and lairy or get into what, in retrospect, appear to be petty arguments at these ‘festivities’. It’s all the suppressed feelings and thoughts. It’s also an excellent time to remember that most people don’t have a family like The Brady Bunch.
There is no rule that says that you ‘should’ suffer through what may be a very unenjoyable gathering.
Ultimately, you could still decide to do [the Christmas/The Holidays arrangement] you’ve been struggling with. However, you’ll stop struggling with it when you choose from a grown-up place rather than almost victimising yourself and dragging your feet. You’ll stop feeling shortchanged due to people not paying up the ‘debt’ created by you going along to get along. You might even surprise yourself by enjoying it. Like when we drag our heels about going somewhere and end up having a great time. Obviously, if you go somewhere hellbent on not enjoying it or coming from a place of, Everyone is out to get me, or I’m the odd one out, then lo and behold, that’s what you’ll look for and behave like.
If you make different arrangements, it’s not to say that the other parties won’t feel disappointed.
Still, the sky isn’t going to fall down. It’s likely as well that, on some level, they’ve been half-expecting it, even if they won’t admit it. Remember, there’s always next year. Acknowledging how you truly feel means you can commit and plan for change. It’s something to look forward to. You can also let the ‘stakeholders’ know. This way, they have time to get used to your decision or make their own plans.
Unless you want to continue to put the past on repeat, it’s time to stop living there! Base the decision to be or do something on the present, not the past. Decide based on now because you’re not the person you were ‘back then’. Acknowledge who you are now.
Just because you’ve been or done something previously doesn’t mean that you should or indeed have to do so again. Once you liberate yourself from the obligation to bust your boundaries and remove no from your vocabulary, you will feel much more in command of yourself and your life instead of being swept along.
Your thoughts?
For more help with boundaries and saying yes and no more authentically, check out my latest book, The Joy of Saying No.
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I did Christmas alone one year, just because it turned out that way. I’d always dreaded this happening, because I’d been told it was the Worst Thing Ever, but actually it turned out quite nicely.
At that time, I was in another country, housesitting for friends, and I went to church in the morning and then made myself a nice lunch, and then lazed and watched TV and didn’t do the washing up. The interweb thingummy wasn’t so big in those days, so I didn’t even turn on a computer. I think it may have snowed a bit in the afternoon.
Having plenty of friends, I COULD have made other arrangements, but I chose to try to do it, and I’m glad I did, because now I know that I can do Christmas alone if I have to.
Has anyone here ever simply told friends/relatives ‘This year I’m going to do something different’, involving maybe a trip away to a reasonably-priced island paradise, or serving Christmas lunch to 100 homeless people, or having a bunch of other single people over to your house, or going to a restaurant with a group of friends?
I like the idea of saying ‘this year’, because that way it sounds as if you do value the ‘family tradition’ but you are just taking a small break from it. This may in fact be a white lie, because you may actually intend never to darken their door again, but this way there may be less fallout.
Then again, this is when your mother says, ‘Well, that’s nice, dear, but of course this will probably be Uncle Frank’s last Christmas with us, on account of him having cancer and all, but don’t worry, you just go and enjoy yourself’ …
I have chosen to skip all the family chaos at Christnmas before and I had a fine time on my own just taking the day as it came.
I opted out of Christmas with the family this year after the past two years were complete and utter disasters. Instead, I’m in NYC housesitting for a friend and having a FABULOUS time….all by myself. Whew.
Gabriel,
I spent my first Christmas in my thirty years alone. And it was fabulous. Christmas Eve I ordered a splendid steak dinner and ate it alone in my apartment; it proved to be the most delicious meal of my life yet. I spent Christmas sleeping/resting and feeling mounds of gratitude for freeing myself from my violent family. It was a holiday of liberation. Sounds like yours was, too. Congrats, onwards, and wishes for equally lovely holidays to you in the future.
Take Care
Xx
Peanut
I’ve spent the last 4 thanksgiving’s volunteering and the last 4 Christmas’ with just my daughter – away from my siblings – for my sanity. They aren’t good for me and I’m no longer willing to go along to get along.
I love volunteering at Thanksgiving, it feels good to focus on helping someone else and not on family drama!
I regularly spend Christmas ‘alone’- x3 so far and they are great compared to the stress hell I was treated to before I took the plunge and am developing it now into a fine art – I feel liberated! – don’t get me wrong – I would love to spend it with other people around a lovely log fire and indoor tree of some kind – but found with friends with families a plus one just doesn’t work with those particular people – whether they are trying too hard to make me fit in to their traditions (which actually makes me feel more alienated) or not trying at all and I become basically invisible and totally un-involved in the proceedings.
I don’t know any other singles at the moment around here so …cie la vie…
I do a bargain price shop xmas eve for luxury freezer bargains, cook myself full dinner xmas eve with all the trimmings, buy my own presents, wrap them, put them under tree way before xmas day, put crappy bad craft decorations up, buy others presents and send them to them, buy something great to plant every year, in the morning with my bacon buttie and hot chocolate ie a tree or fruit bush etc, get loads of dvds I might want to watch for the afternoon/evening – go for a short walk if weather good to the river or the hills behind me – listen to a bit of radio, Christmas music, eat some dinner, light my special candles that rotate, open some crackers and a present or two… text/ phone a few people / watch another film possibly… at which point I’m ready for sleep….feeling happy in that I treated and loved myself fully – even if no one else does.
The worst bit of a Christmas alone for me, is really the protracted period of time without joining in with people doing things equally, before things get back to normal in the new year – those twilight days between xmas and new year!! – so this year I am on a mission – making plans for a walk on boxing day where I know there will be lots of other people but i can join in on my own, a special cinema visit somewhere lovely and noted some creative projects that might be good to get off the ground?? – that will make me feel good for doing them and remind me the rest of the year that I can actually start something if not complete it.
Funny thing is the same people I ran from at Christmas after over 30 of them with them – claim every year their Christmas is a perfect / wonderful event – and now I don’t ever have to feel jealous or wonder what is wrong with me because I couldn’t enjoy them – because I too have a wonderful, perfect Christmas without them (and their stress), doing things I like doing (or not doing them) and experiencing something new that I want to do – whether its a sandwich sitting on a hill or planting a new tree in my garden or somethings even more silly or simply on the net talking to some good people like yourselves….
Happy winter holidays to everyone on Baggage Reclaim!! – I hope you all have a stimulating, fun, peaceful and joyous occasion (with a few luxuries thrown in)… some good times that you truely enjoy. I value you all, no matter where you are, or that I can’t see you all – some of you here have helped to give me and others, the best gift of all – to value myself consistently and assert my right to action this as fully as I can – no matter what situation I am in. Happy, peaceful, new year everyone.
Oona, there is so much in your post to admire and relate to. Bless you and Merry Christmas.
Oona,
You sound at peace with life, and yourself.
Happy Holidays!
Oona- HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂 Your Christmas sounds wonderful, just relaxing and peaceful. You deserve it.
Hello guys!!! Thanks, Lizzp, Allison and Rosie!!! – Yes I have been working out a thing or two 😉 and I am doing much better – thanks to a lot of help and real support etc… hope you all had a good one or are having a good one also!!!!! Currently I’m enjoying a cup of tea – heaven! :-0
My plant this year turned out to be a dwarf cherry tree and its such a beautiful shape – I can’t wait to see it with leaves in the spring :-), my smoothie was strawberry and banana – evan though my fitness self said to go for the one with extra winter vitamin c that I’d had before – the fun self said a clear No and yes the sun did shine Christmas day even though its been blustery heavy rain and wind across the fields for ages… Christmas wasn’t perfect – I had a slight bumpy ride with a ‘family’ phone call attempting a reinforced emotional blackmail/manipulation/guilt trip thing – but I understood what was happening fairly quickly (for-warned is for-armed as they say) and importantly, dealt with it and moved beyond it pretty quickly.
What I did do/am doing for Christmas – the reality of it – is still sitting really well with me – and I would be close to saying I actually… feel… happy!…currently… and that’s something I never believed could happen at Christmas time – ever – alone or not – roll on 2015!! Happy joyful holidays everyone……
Oona,
I am going to do the same next year and glad to see that I’m not the only one who wants to spend it alone without the family. I have an extremely emotionally abusive family led by my mother, who at 83, is not slowing down.I am always dragged into the – you can’t stay alone – crap, along with the – you are dividing this family this year. Why can’t you just go along? – You have validated my thinking and I thank you! Happy New Year!
My first Christmas after the arseface left I spent with my sister’s family and our parents. It was one of the worst Christmases I’d ever had, feeling like an intruder and afterthought who had nowhere else to go and no one to be with and I vowed never to repeat the experience.
The following Christmas, last year, my daughter was home but I also volunteered at a charity lunch in the park event for people who were in need at Christmas, be it financial, social or emotional need. I frocked up, wore my jingling reindeer antlers and I had a great time in my role as a table host. It was a bit emotional for me and bloody tiring for an introvert but it was good to get out of my comfort zone and do something positive for, and in the company of, others.
This year I’ve been very much enjoying putting up my decorations in my own home, catching up with friends and am again volunteering on Christmas Day. I’ve got lots of lovely treats for myself and my furry white dogs and bought a few things I’ve been coveting for myself.
There seemed to be a bit of expectation that I would go to family for lunch but I firmly said I could come in the evening for dinner as I was already committed to my volunteer role. I was a bit worried that response would be an issue but it turned out be cool. I’m finding that it’s not as much drama as I fear when I gently and unemotionally state and stand by my choices, especially as I now make those choices from a healthy self loving place.
I’ve been powerfully reminded that we need to live fully and in the here and now by an incredible turn of events that sort of brought the arseface back into my life. I cut all contact with his family but did stay in touch with one Aunty by marriage, just because she was so funny and likeable and not close to him. She messaged me about four weeks ago to tell me that he had died that morning from a virus he had contracted! It was totally unexpected as he had only just turned 40 and I was almost disbelieving, especially with the long history of pathological lies. I’ve done some grieving and had more than a few moments of black humour but now my focus is firmly back on myself, he was then, I am now; and I am well, loved and full of peace and joy.
Have a wonderful time of year folks, whatever you conceive it to be and however you choose to spend it. *hugs*
Furry White Dogs- It sounds as if you’re creating a full, rich, meaningful life. Beautiful!
Great – fury white dogs – go for it.
I just broke a habit that’s had me in stitches for years with an ex. He was a total jerk to me when we broke up (and during our relationship, though I couldn’t stop being in love wih him at the time). He was very controlling throughout the whole relationship, but in subtle, manipulative ways. Well, I was heartbroken when we split and he went on to date someone else (as did I). But recently he was back in touch and wanted to be friends. He must have been recently single, but of course I hopefully thought maybe he had changed. We made a plan to meet up for coffee, but because he had to work around my schedule, I could tell he was annoyed (he likes to always be the very important and busy one). So he cancelled on me.. Then we reset up the date and hours beforehand, he cancelled on me again! He used to do this all the time, so against all my normal ways, I snapped! I was actually pretty polite, but just said to him, “why did you cancel so late if you knew you couldn’t make it?” He was so annoyed! He snapped back at me about being controlling and wanting so much from him. He said he still wanted to see me, but I said it wasn’t a good idea. Said I couldn’t go through being rejected over and over. He got so mad! Said I was overreacting, reading too much into it all and that he hadn’t done anything wrong but I was giving him grief. Wtf? I have been EXTREMELY accommodating to him throughout the course of our relationship. And now just because I put up the smallest boundary he says I’m givin him grief? Maybe I overreacted but seriously, I kinda don’t think so. Trying to stay strong and not doubt myself. I hate that he will walk away thinking that he dodged a controlling, complaining bullet, but I know I am not. I know that I am awesome and it is his loss, even if he can’t see it. I am the one who has dodged a bullet, right??
Hannah, Hannah, Hannah [head in hands].
I would love to put together a collection of Cautionary Tales about breaking No Contact – and this would be one of them. I think a collection like this would be invaluable to anyone out there thinking ‘But this time it will be different’, or that their situation is the exception to the rule.
Judging by the dialogue you report here, you two should never, EVER see each other again. And I mean never. In fact, try to stay out of the same city. Or even state. Country, if you can manage it. ‘Incompatible’ is too mild a word.
Who cares what he thinks? You shouldn’t.
Hannah,
Why are you questioning yourself? What’s with all the self-doubt?
Why in world would you agree to meet up, if he had been an asshole when you were together? For the most part, PEOPLE DO NOT CHANGE!
Stay NC!!!!
You are correct! He needs to stuff those bullets.
Hannah – I don’t even know why you want to interact with such a coward. He cancelled on you and is then labeling *you* as controlling and wanting so much from him. This interaction is dysfunctional on so many levels. He’s treating you like garbage and *he’s* insulted that you are asking him to treat you with courtesy and decency. You are only asking him for the basics, and he’s turning it around and acting like you’re at fault. This is so aggressively manipulative and so abusive, that I wouldn’t even engage with someone like this. And as Natalie wrote, just because he treated you with disrespect in the past, doesn’t mean you should allow him to do so in the present.
Hannah! It’s funny how ALL controlling people will at some point use the ‘you are controlling/ complaining!’ line!!!!His cancelling and remaking off appointments are a classic actions of a controlling person and his line was actually himself complaining.
WAKE UP!
Or your life WILL go down the toilet!! – like his manners, care and respect for you obviously did – BEFORE AND DURING THE MOMENT YOU ASSERTED SELF RESPECT AND NATURAL CARE FOR YOURSELF!!!!
His line basically demands you to throw your self respect and self love – to the curb – or else, which would leave you totally vulnerable for a ‘man’ who already shows you zero respect – and that’s when you are setting boundaries – god help you if you stop!
I also just changed the way things have been operating in my life with my ex MM. I am embarrassed to say that I was the OW for about 6 months, but I thought we were in love and he said lots of little things to make me think he was wanting to leave and be with me (though he never made any promises). I feel terrible about it now, but I was so crazy about him! I couldn’t stop. I asked him what he wanted and he said he still loves his wife. That hurt a lot to hear, so we decided to stop seeing each other. He said he still wanted to be friends, but I told him that would be hard for me. We work together, so it’s tough to truly get away from each other. But instead of respecting what I said, he started coming hy my office more and wanting to kiss and telling me how beautiful I am and wanting to make out. i got swept up in it again. no sleeping together, but making out. I asked him what it meant and he started back-pedaling again, saying he loves his wife. I said thats fine, lets try to be friends for real then. But then he abruptly cut things off with me. I know that’s what had to happen, but he was so rude about it. Started saying that what they have is what he wants and that he loves his wife and doesn’t want to lose her. That’s fine, I said, but I don’t want to hear this!! I told him we can’t be friends, it’s too hard for me. but then he started coming around my office again and would linger around but then tell me about his wife’s family and their vacation coming up. Seriously?! Go away! It has been so hard for me to push back on him coming by because I do really love him and wish we could be around each other. But this is ridiculous! You either love me or you love her and if you love her then leave me alone! I finally took a big step and told him this Sunday night via text not to come around my office anymore. I said he has really hurt me and I dont want to see or talk to him anymore. That I’m not mad but I just can’t have him in my life and watch him move on all happy sappy with his wife. He never responded. I said sorry that it was just the way it had to be, and he said okay. of course I feel really sad. Did I do something wrong? I know I was the OW and I regret that. But nobody deserves this level of pain! Now I have to follow through and not cave to seeing or talking to him.. It only leads to pain for me. But I am proud that I took a step that was very hard for me. Hoping to heal from this and move on. Have I done the right thing? Did he ever actually even l really love me? So confused :(. Trying not to care about his life. I was just so in love and he suddenly seems like he couldn’t care less.
Pain? You know what – Pain Is What you Get When You Screw With Married Men. You have learned a valuable life lesson. Let it sink in.
(Pain is also what his wife is going to feel when she finds out, because you are almost certainly not the first woman he has fooled around with, and he may have also been fooling with other women while he was fooling with you. She will find out. They always do.)
Leave him alone, and get some help with your own problems. What made you think it was OK to mess around with someone else’s husband? Was it the danger? The flirting? The flattery? The compliments?
Why are you so lonely that this looked like a good idea? What’s missing in your life, that you need to be with a married man, who is never going to leave his wife, and who is basically using you?
THIS is where it gets interesting – you could go a long way towards happiness if you start digging into those deeper parts of yourself.
Totally well said Ethelreda!
Thanks Ethelreda,
I think I just really loved him. Not rational and not well thought out, not lonely or the rush of it. But it doesn’t matter. it was still stupid and I feel so horrible. I knew it couldn’t carry on, but I didn’t expect him to be so cold and mean about it when I asked him what he wanted. That’s the part that hurts the most (though thinking of them going on their merry way really hurts too.) One day at a time to healing I guess.
Hi Leanne, being OW wasn’t the best thing you’ve ever done in your life but this doesn’t mean that you have to beat yourself up for the rest of your life and take all the blame. I don’t envy your situation because you can’t really go total NC (as you should) and he keeps pestering you. I believe that he does have feelings for you (and his wife) but I don’t think he’s capable of any particular emotional depth. Also, why should he, he’s having great life, probably a devoted wife (no, I don’t believe these guys are in abusive marriages – if they were they wouldn’t dare to stray) and a (potential) thing on the side. I understand you’ve got feelings for him but why do you question now whether he’s ever loved you? Do you really need to feel validated by a guy who cheated on his wife and continues to pester you (and ask for sex) against your wishes? There are several things you could do to get him off your back – you could say something really horrible to him so he’d never want to speak to you again (worked quite well for me in the past), or you could threaten to tell his wife if he doesn’t leave you alone, or that you’re going to report him to your employer for sexual harassment if he continues. I don’t know your situation at work but HRs are often very discrete but still deal with the issues. You might not even tell them that you had an affair with him, just that he’s harassing you (because this is what it’s happening).
Thanks Mephista,
I really appreciate your comments. I know it wasn’t smart, but it really wasn’t rational and I tried to pull out of the situation, but when he kept coming back, I thought maybe he had changed his mind and wanted to be together. Lesson learned 🙁 I think you hit the nail on the head when you said he didn’t have emotional depth. I cant believe how horrible he has been to me since things ended. I feel like he just dumped me in the trash and is happily moving on with his wife. I feel like SUCH an idiot, though at the same time totally miss him 🙁 I am glad I changed my reaction to him, but it hurts a lot right now. Looking forward to it getting better (and never getting in this situation again!)
Leanne,I also went through exactly what you have. We also worked together and after the 6 Month fling (I was young and in love) he disappeared but still called every Year on my Birthday for 30 Years…then his Wife died of Cancer…three Months later he calls ME…I said NO to seeing him…he calls again off and on….stupid me (Still Love Him)and 6 Months later I give in and see him (I am in Heaven. Christmas comes he has me to his Home to meet his grown Children and Grandchildren…I was shunned by all and he said nor did nothing to protect my feelings…we saw each other for another Month but things went down hill from there…He moved to another State with his Daughter and Family and again starts to call me with all his problems..this goes on for a Year then he moves back to my State and expects to see me….I said NO..he keeps calling but I will not see him..I cut contact for a Year and on my Birthday a Card comes…I sent him a Birthday Card a Week later for his Birthday..no contact for another Year,then November this Year a Birthday Card saying he thinks of me often..I did not respond in any way…have not seen him in 3 Years nor spoke on the Phone for 1 1/2 Years…I will always Love him but have lost my Respect for him..I deserve better…I am finally Happy again..You will be also…
Wanda,
You did the right thing by not being receptive to him anymore and I am so glad that you realized that you deserved better because you do! God Bless
Thanks for the support wanda. This has been so tough! Your story sounds terrible and I feel for you. I can only imagine how difficult that would be. Good for you for breaking your habit!!
Leanne,
This is what you get when you get involved with a MM and try to break up a family! God God, he also told you he still loved the wife. Most men say the wife is a monster. What were you thinking???
And to believe you could be friends. He only wanted sex and attention.
Stay away from MM!!!
I know, I feel really embarrassed about it 🙁 I was just so in love with him, I couldn’t see reality. We didn’t actually sleep together, just made out.. doesn’t really make it better but still. I thought he loved me but I guess he was just using me. And I really didn’t set out to break up a family. We were friends for about a year and a half before this started. It really, really hurts 🙁
Leanne, I think that last week’s blog wasn’t exactly right. It said dont make it about you, but sometimes you should make it about you. You are saying a number of red flag things.
-married man [hell to the no]
-co-worker [problematic unless you’re jim and pam]
-you ‘love’ him – how? How does one love someone that one has never had a truthful honest publicly acknowledged long-term relationship with? You are using the word love very loosely here. No, the odds are you didn’t love him, this is love created out of drama, secrecy, forbidden-ness. You must ask yourself why you crave this type of connection – you sound EU also.
-married man co-worker comes to your office to make out with you [hello red flag for your career!]
-man you said no to is busting your boundaries, ignoring your needs and feelings and your words [and you repeatedly let him – I am not judging dear friend, I have done the same recently, and this guy was just EU and not MM. It took a while for me to say hold up am I insane? I cut contact, I rehearsed what I will say if he calls me, I accept my responsibility in that after figuring out he was a jackass I let him play hot-and-cold, be disrespectful etc etc. That is my responsibility, I was passive, I was lonely and bored and I let some tepid guy be an ass to me. That is on me].
The MM is total scum – I doubt he loves his wife either since someone that loves their spouse wouldn’t be in hot pursuit of a co-worker. However, him being a jackass doesnt absolve you of responsibility (not blame, but responsibility) for your part… you need to take full responsibility for your behavior. All of it.
Hi again Leanne –
I re-read what I said earlier, and I sounded a bit harsh. I guess I get so frustrated when people say, ‘but I was so in love’, as if that somehow excuses things! We’re kind of programmed by Disney and commercials to think this way, but it’s a long way from reality.
We say ‘I can’t help falling in love’, but actually, WE CAN. ‘Falling in love’ doesn’t just happen. It’s the result of dozens of tiny little choices you make in your relationship with a person, over time.
It can happen fast or slow, but we DO have a great measure of control over it, and over WHAT WE DO with those strong feelings. You don’t always have to act on them.
I am saddened by your story – you sound very young, by the way! – because it strikes me that you’ve never learned to protect yourself against workplace romances. You absolutely MUST learn how to do this, otherwise this will keep happening.
I made a resolution to myself that I would never, ever ‘shit where I eat’, eg. have an office relationship, and although I’ve been tempted to do so sometimes, having attractive colleagues, I’ve stuck to keeping my mouth shut and my boundaries in place.
The reason I made this resolution was that I didn’t like the odds. Statistically, most relationships break up. I love my work; I love my career, and I will NOT jeopardise it in this way. It simply isn’t worth it.
The other thing, of course, is that people in your office will know that you and the MM have been having an affair of sorts, and they will talk about it. Your reputation is now also compromised – not because you’re a Random Sex Fiend and Homewrecker, but because you’ve made things unpleasant at work. Co-workers can be very resentful of office romances because they disrupt a happy working atmosphere, and make things tense and difficult for others.
So anyway, the upshot of this long and rambling response is that I think you have been used by this man – he sounds like he had a very practised routine which he used on you, and I strongly suspect you were not the first woman to have this kind of fling with him. Learn, learn, learn – and guard your heart.
Leanne -I believe you need to redefine what you think love is – because all I’m reading here is a whole world of pain and that’s never ever love.
Physical attraction and lust that you have mistaken for love for some reason!
You need to search through your friends and family for a relationship that makes you feel completely comfortable as yourself, that also doesn’t put yourself or others – in danger or harm emotionally, physically etc AND MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD FOR REAL…
What kind of man or woman puts people in this position???? – Not someone I want to devote time and space to – the most precious thing I have to give.
Now you know what lust is and how it can potentially take you over and enmesh you in poor relationships that bring you pain – you can guard against it but only if you do the work Leanne. Re evaluate what love actually is Leanne. I promise you it is much much nicer than this sorted collection of details. Good luck.
Alison, this is misplaced anger and doesn’t help Leanne in any way. What kind of Victorian language is this, telling her off for breaking up a family? Leanne is single and the guy is married and it’s first and foremost up to the guy to respect his marriage. Also, I’m quite sure that Leanne didn’t rape him and that he was a very willing participant and probably an instigator. She now leaves him alone and he keeps harassing her. Some perspective please and less judgemental attitude.
Mephista,
Sorry, she’s half the problem.
“Victorian,” or not, we stay away from our sisters men. Period!!!
Also, he is not on this forum, so I can only respond to her part.
It needed to be shut down much earlier, but good to see she has put a stop to it.
Allison- I’m totally with you on this! I don’t know if there are kids involved in Leanne ‘ s case, but mistresses ARE trying to break up a family. How many stories have we heard here of women begging, pleading, & jumping through fire hoops trying to get these sleaze bags to leave their wives with no thought to the devastation this would cause the kids?
I don’t care if I’m called “judgmental” (calling somebody judgmental us making a judgment, btw). I don’t coddle grownups. My heart’s with these kids. Isn’t anybody thinking about them??
First off, let me start by saying I am not condoning cheating. I never would. I also have never and would like to hope would never find myself involved with a married man.
However I am a child of divorce and felt very strongly that I should just point out in response to this comment that the best thing for children is not necessarily having your mother and father together -Especially not if one of the parents is capable of cheating. Some people get married and have children who should not probably not have gotten married and had children. We are all here (I believe) to learn lessons through life and turn into better people, sometimes a broken marriage is a lesson to grow from and not necessarily repair.
Word. I’m also a child of divorce. My parents would have made one another miserable had they stayed together. Frankly they had no business remarrying to the other people they married either.
But then I’m the weirdo who is coming around to thinking that marriage and procreation ought to be separate matters. But that gets into a whole discussion of matrilineal extended families that really isn’t on topic here.
Boo & Dana- Yes, I understand that divorce can be necessary and even better for the children in some cases. What a I’m talking about here is what happens to children when they discover a parent has been unfaithful to their other parent. It can be devastating! It’s setting these kids up to be future BR readers & commenters.
I’ve not been the OW or been cheated on by another person to my knowledge in my life, I don’t walk in others shoes and I can only go on my own life experience/knowledge but blame and judgement in my life hasn’t been all that helpful for me personally – other than for me to use it to beat myself up more – pushing me into further negative relationships – however being honest about the self-blame can help you to search out ways to forgive yourself, gain closure and move out of this as a negative pattern.
Everyone here I believe would agree this is not a satisfactory situation for anyone and everyone deserves to feel love for real – so why is someone sabotaging their chance of a true loving relationship? – at the very beginning? – by accepting someone who is already with someone else and not prepared to do the honorable thing before committing to them or others? Conning themselves and deceiving others in the process also? Why accept it Leanne? Some questions need answering. You must have committed some terrible human rights crime in your life to deserve this deceit instead of love – or perhaps you don’t deserve it and you deserve the real thing? You being on this web site and communicating openly tells me something and I wish you luck in getting to the bottom of it once and for all.
And moving on…:-)
That’s true, but in the end she’s still not breaking up the marriage. Only he can do that. She isn’t married to his wife, he is. She didn’t make the vows, he did. Her sole responsibility was not shutting down on her end and backing away. Everything else was on him, including the fallout with his marriage if there is any.
The driver of the get – away car may not have been the one who robbed the bank but the crime couldn’t have been pulled off without her help.
Honestly, Leanne, it’s hard to say what is going through this guy’s head. It sounds like he doesn’t know what he wants and doesn’t want to commit to either/or. He wants his cake and to eat it too, at the expense of your heart. BS. You did the right thing by telling him not to come by the office anymore. He’s playing games and being totally reckless with your feelings. The fact that he would be intimate with you and then pull back is so wrong on so many levels. Then there’s of course the fact that he’s being unfaithful to his wife. Yeah, that part is clearly disturbing.
I could see how some guys can seduce you and you feel you involuntarily weaken with their advances. I actually just experienced this recently — not with a MM — but just with a guy who totally toyed with my affections. Like you, I felt I could not resist him and just fell so hard for him and lapped up his attention when we were together. I overlooked so many bad points – like the fact that he disrespected me, didn’t make me a priority, didn’t truly care about me, and seemed to only be using me for a good time. I literally felt he was the ONE, despite his behavior/attitude towards me clearly demonstrating he was USING me.
Here’s the deal — he doesn’t deserve you. It SUCKS… this torment you’re experiencing. I GET it. You wonder how, why, and WTF. It’s so confusing, twisted, and pulls at your heart and soul and makes you question EVERYTHING.
That is exactly why it’s not right. Something that makes you feel like such s&*$ and makes you question everything is NOT good for you. There’s always going to be some good points to something bad for you. Jobs, food, friends… those are some examples. And we have the FREE WILL to make choices – healthy choices, preferably. Yet, if we want to screw up our life, we are entitled to do so. So the choice is yours. Are you going to sacrifice yourself for this guy who brings you down to the ground? You may love and care for him and all that juicy stuff, but how does he make you FEEL? Can you live with that? All the ambiguity and lack of true consideration? I think you’ve already answered that question through your actions – actions of strength and character, might I add – given that you walked away. You’re doing good.
The bottom line is this: you DESERVE better. Someone who truly cares about your feelings and is willing to back up his consideration with true love and commitment. None of this ‘having to sort through all of the BS’ in search of the truth.
The truth ain’t pretty honey. He’s a liar, a cheat, and he’s proven he doesn’t care by treating you the way he’s been treating you. I know it’s a tough pill to swallow. Hell, at times I’m cringing at my current reality with the situation from which I’m recovering, in which I too, was disrespected, and feel confused and used. However, I know I will find better. Odds and time are in your favor. It seems impossible right now bc you’re knee-deep in heartache and sorrow and the end seems nowhere in sight. Truth is, time DOES heal. Been there, done that. Take it as a lesson and move forward and know that you WILL get better and feel whole again without him. You WILL. Trust me. Have the faith girl. Have the faith. Take it one day at a time.
This reminds me of a conversation that I had with a co-worker when I was in military service. He had a very pretty wife, but he was notorious for chasing women. I naively asked him, if he was so unhappy in his marriage, why didn’t he divorce her? He looked at me like I was crazy. “Get a divorce? Why would I do that? I’m happy.”
I asked, “Then why do you cheat?”
He said, “Well, I like having her at home, and I like having other women too.”
Disgusting, but honest. He wanted to have his cake and eat it too…the lovely wife who takes care of him, the sexy girls that he can have fun with, the ego boost of knowing that multiple women want him, the attention, the fun of “getting away” with something. Like a selfish, greedy kid who wants every toy for himself, and the hell with who gets hurt. Not his problem.
Why did his wife put up with it? Well, she was foreign-born, and did not speak much English. If she left him, how was she going to support herself and their kids in the U.S.? And back in her country, there was a lot of prejudice toward women who dated or married American men, especially military men, and no acceptance of half-western kids…so going back home was not really an option for her either. She was trapped with this louse. He knew it when he married her, that she wouldn’t be able to leave.
I think that this is a lot of cheaters. They like having the man/woman at home, they like the playmates, and life’s just a blast.
I agree 100%. Like Queen Latifah says in the movie “Last Holiday” about the cheating married man – “They’re not bad people. They’re just GREEDY people. They want a little bit of this, a little bit of that..”
They are usually extremely attractive to others – whether it’s looks or personality or both – and find it very easy to pull a new person in.
Elgie R.- How insightful! Yes, “greedy” is the word for it.
And in my view, in the case of ACMM, I understand his wife not leaving. Why leave a very likable person who you find physically and mentally attractive, who also is a good provider and parent. As boring as marriage seems to get for people, I think it certainly makes things more bearable when the spouse provides physical and mental eye candy.
I think all or nothing, happily-ever-after thinking is a naïve fantasy about marriage held by those who’ve never lived inside a marriage.
I know a married man who admits to sometimes feeling like he wants to walk away from the marriage, but he won’t because he loves his kids and actually likes the wife. He said he thinks what makes you hang in there through rough times is that there has to be something you liked about the person you picked to marry.
Hannah,
You dodged a bullet. He will go away thinking : “damn! My crap didn’t work this time. She’s changed! ” this is a good thing. You have changed. Be weary if he keeps trying to meet. That shows you he is trying to bust your boundaries and get you back under control. Don’t let him.
I too have changed. No longer wish for a close friendship with the “nice” ex. Cos he wasn’t “nice” to me. I don’t condone avoiding someone’s calls if your not officially NC but I allow myself to speak to people if and when I want to:) (change) I don’t have the urge to chat with him for hours on the phone like I used to. So I don’t:)
Sometimes saying “no” is not in the word but in the subtlest of actions.
I slept with a guy I really would like to be with a few weeks ago. We’ve been off and on for a year. I’ve been a willing participant, both of us good people but both of us EU due to the past. As usual I’ve heard nothing from him in the weeks after. I never hear from him for a while after we’ve seen each other…like we both savour it then try and store it at the back of our minds cos due to life circumstances it would be a challenge to be a couple.
However I’ve grown and I’ve changed so this time I told him I loved him. (I do)
Now it’s up to him to say/show it back or its ended. No drama, in the words of Megan ” no trouble”
I expressed my feelings which I’ve never done before and the truth will be on the pudding.
Simply put: when you grow, you change and things change around you as a result. You don’t have to stay the same but he prepared nothing else will stay the same either.
Bx
I have mentioned before my bitchy older sister and her domineering partner I call “The Ayatollah Smurf.”
I hope the following isn’t too repetitious, but if so please forgive me–I can’t remember whom I told what these days.
To recap, my older sister is a bitch, and I call her even bitchier partner the Ayatollah Smurf.
Last June, I was so disgusted with my sister’s hot and cold passive aggressive BS, I told her I needed a break for a month or two–and without asking why, instead she got insanely angry and extended the break to 6 months and told me I was exhaustingly needy.
The break ended Dec. 3, but she waited a week to contact me via e-mail. She sent me a photo of a cute little monkey looking kind of expectant and worried, and asked me if I was planning to attend our cousin’s holiday party on Dec. 20.
She was so used to being a bitch to me, then having me forgive her without discussing it, I guess she figured by sending a monkey pic and asking one question, all would be back to normal. Crumbs again? Wrong-o.
I simply replied, “no.”
We will all be together Christmas, and in the past I would have skipped it to avoid those two, but I wanted to see my beloved nephews and the rest of my family. I can ignore her stupid ass and totally ignore the smurf because I know I’ll have so much fun with the nephews and the rest of the family.
So, once I let it go and focused on the fun I know I’ll have, my brother called yesterday and said he doubts they will be there. HO,HO, HO! Those ho’s won’t show!
😀
Karen… your comment totally cracks me up. I love the strength in your actions. The fact that you’re not willing to take crap is so empowering.
I’m grateful to my married ex. We used to date 10 or 12 years ago and I dumped her during a last second chance for suspected cheating. She ended up marrying the one I suspected her of cheating with. Last year, after 10 years had passed with NC, I figured all the dust had settled and e-mailed her a generic how’s it going note. We started up again after she convinced me her marriage had dragged down to a sexless, Laverne & Shirley type thing. You know, strictly platonic except for that legal marriage document.
Long story short, I was just one more notch on her online chick belt and I dumped her for good last March. No contact at all. But she screwed with my head so much I did the hard work of digging all the way back to toddlerhood to find out why I was attracted to rats, cheaters and wounded birds. Once I hit bottom, I saw the bottom was solid and I started climbing up toward self esteem. Now nice months later I am ready to date again but waiting for someone with integrity and the same life goals as I. That’s why I am grateful to her- she was such a skilled seductress, she managed to shake me out of my emotional coma.
In other news, I was dreading family Christmas with my bitchy older sister I haven’t spoken with since June, but my brother told me today she is going to his house the next day instead of Christmas day. That proves to me there IS a God. 😉
I agreed with my bf of 5 wks to take it easy as he was sorting out some situations were he couldn’t afford to take me out much as he had some commitments at the moment, ok we met 2 times a week to talk and spend time with each other. Last week I didn’t feel too good, arguing and being unresponsive to his texts and calls.
I wasn’t happy about the situation and didn’t feel he was being truthful with me. I don’t know I just had this gut feeling he is not speaking the truth, after talking and trying to sort things out, all he could say to me is that he loves me and wants to be with me..bla bla…
I heard it all before so I text saying I don’t believe him, after texting back and forth and me getting into a state, and him saying things will improve next year, to give him time.
Yesterday I called him after work which he answered my call and we spoke for a while, then he told me to bell him back later, he didn’t pick up and has not answered my call or text, he would normally text me as soon as he wakes up and during the day and before he dozes off at night, since last night nothing, I try calling him again today, his phone just rings he’s not picking up. I’m not sure if he’s cut me off?
I don’t know if I should call him again or text him or if I should leave it as it is? It’s a bit strange cause yesterday afternoon we were talking and he seems fine.
Any advice please?
Kadija
Leave it. Isn’t this the same dude that had the drinking problem?
Some guys who have issues and are having a hard time getting their act together just evaporate. Again, let it be.
Kadija,
If I can be frank with you, considering you’ve only been with the guy 5 weeks, his behaviour so far is whack. It’s too soon to be feeling this anxious and stressed about your relationship – this should be the honeymoon period!
I’ve learnt over the years to take people for their actions, and if you feel like he’s not treating you the way you want to, or you have concerns over whether “he’s cut you off” – then you need to seriously question whether this ‘relationship’ is working for you. By the sound of things, it’s not.
I’d flush it now while it’s still early and save yourself a whole lot of pain and heartache. He may have a good reason for not getting back to you, but you’ve mentioned several things in your post that make me believe otherwise.
Love and respect yourself enough to identify the red flags when they appear.
Good luck x
Kadija – I am not sure I can say much, considering that you don’t provide a lot of information. He has commitments he needs to honor, so he can’t give much to you. I don’t know what that means. Also, you have a feeling he’s lying to you. That’s a red flag I wouldn’t ignore. And if this guy is your boyfriend, then he owes it to you to tell you exactly what is going on with him, rather than keep you in the dark. You are in a relationship, aren’t you?
That’s what being a relationship means, you let your partner into what your issues are, and you deal with them *together*. The fact he’s disappeared is very strange. I’d make sure this isn’t a pattern where he disappears at the sign of trouble. Wait and see what explanation he gives you as to why he disappeared. During times of trouble, couples should turn to each other, not away from each other. You need to see how he copes with problems.
Kadija,
It sounds as if he has blocked you which means that while you can hear it ringing it doesn’t notify him on the other end. Five weeks is such a short time to already be having problems. I mean good grief, you don’t respond then he doesn’t respond what is it going to be like after a few months?! It sounds as if you both need to sort yourselves out!
Check yourselves on the “in love” feeling. I too thought I was “in love” with the ACMM. Now I realize I was in love with being validated, because so much of my life has been about “invalidation”.
I mean, really, what was I in love with. A man who has no interest in me outside of his sex visits. No matter how charming he was and how much laughter we shared, it was just the wrapping on the sex visit. He’s not THERE for me. How can we claim to be “in love” with someone who is not “there”, not really present in our life. We are just giddy that someone out there throws us some contact now and again, because we are lonely, and have trouble occupying our minds with things other than thoughts of HIM.
It’s like saying we’re in love with George Clooney. It’s fantasy. It’s the way we are in teen years, screaming at the Beatles, or David Cassidy.( Or for me, Bobby Sherman. )
I don’t hate ACMM. I just realize my feelings were more about wanting to fill MY emotional emptiness than something provoked by how he treated me. And believe it or not, I think some of the ACs know this about us and take advantage of the situation presented.
Elgie R.,
Absolutely. Now looking back, it was not love I felt for him. It was looking for validation, admiration, filling up the empty spot – that nagging empty achy spot craving for someone to love me even if it is fantasy. The loneliness that had lasted for years since childhood created the “in love” feelings for him. Then, I was holding on to the investment I made with him. It is all about validation and ego and dependency on someone to make us “happy.” We cannot expect anyone to make us happy and fill the void. No human being can do that. It is God for those who believe. It is you Yourself, who don’t believe. But no person can do it for us.
Sofia, I can relate to your words and I want to be honest with myself and say that maybe I wasn’t really in love with him, but it all felt so right. Maybe he was just the better of all the other EUMs I’ve been with and that is what’s keeping me “stuck”. I don’t know. I do know though that I DO seek our validation. I have such fear of abandonment which goes way back to childhood. It was such a tremendously good feeling to have someone “care” and “love” me. That “validation” was like a high for me and when he abruptly stopped, I felt the old me come right back by asking myself over and over again, “WTH did I do this time?” I thought I had gotten this one right. I don’t know how to get past the feeling of seeking validation for myself. It is almost a terrifying feeling.
I meant to say seek “out” validation.
Elisabeth, I had goosebumps reading what you wrote. That would be me saying all these words just few months ago.
Believe me, as hard as it is now, in few months time, up to a year, everyone has different timing, these feelings will dissipate. You will wear out from feeling them. It is like you will feel depleted from feeling them over and over. From thinking of whys and whats over and over.That’s why as cliche as it sounds, time will do it. I testify. I was a mess for straight 9 months and then it started letting go slowly. Well, actually it lets go every day a little by little and you do see the difference every month. There will be some setbacks and again “whys, should haves, could haves.” Eventually it is like your body emits this natural response when you even automatically (out of habit I noticed, the brain is trained to think of him because you have been doing it for months) start thinking of him, you realize that bringing up his face in your memory doesn’t elicit the same feelings. I have some sadness (PMS, holidays) now when I think of him, but the feelings are so different from few months ago. Believe it or not, you will get there. It is very normal what you are thinking right now. Yes, my EUM was too a “better” more consistent and predictable EUM than the ones before. When he broke up with me, it was truly like withdrawal from the drug although if you THINK about it, there was not much love and care from them. It’s almost like that love and care you craved was your own that you gave all to them but never got back. Got robbed and stripped and left even hungrier than before.
Be patient with yourself. Don’t listen to people who say “hurry up” and “get over it”. Heal on your time. What helped me: my faith, church, this blog, reading, working out, being a mother first of all, to keep me sane from day to day in all of my pursuits and activities.
Gradually it will let go! There is no forcing to it. No deadline. It is like detox. Organically your body will heal and cleanse.
Write here frequently, read, and share. We will help and support you!! You are not alone!
Sofia – you said ‘out of habit I noticed, the brain is trained to think of him because you have been doing it for months.’ In my case I have been doing it for 3 years. I think about him everyday and i Know its because its a habit. I want it to stop. Sometimes I still have conversations in my head with him of things I should have said. How do I make it stop? I don’t want to think about him anymore.
As I am writing my reply to you, Lynn, right now, I am thinking of him. It is a habit, sadly. How do you get rid of it? One thing is knowing and accepting it’s over and starting to heal.
I believe, if I am not mistaken, you reestablished contact with your ex and slept with him while he is with someone else. So that’s breaking NC and you are back to “being with him” in your mind anyway. So that doesn’t help healing. I was lucky, I guess and true, yes, that my ex didn’t maintain any contact with me except for couple – three meaningless superficial texts throughout this year to which I responded and regretted. Now I regret it too but only because it delayed my healing. Not because “what did he think when I texted that.” If my ex wanted to see me in the first 6 months past breakup even as friends, I would go and most likely sleep with him. Although he was the one offering me friendship and “let’s meet up after couple months,” he never offered it again and ignored my question, “are you trying to be friends with me?” to his first text in April (broke up in February). He just went silent. Anyway, I am going into describing too many details here. I will cut it short.
How do you make it stop. So first, No Contact. You know and accept this is over. Start crying and howling and cursing and whatever else, beat the pillow, go run. The first few months I spent at the gym running and crying while running. You have to accept it’s over and start healing. If you are still hoping there is a hope, you will always be thinking of him painfully not just robotically out of habit.
Then once you realize it’s over, you will start healing and focusing on your life. Gradually you will get immersed in your life and thoughts of him will be substituted by your daily routines, tasks, goals, and hopefully something big like a career change (like for me now I am trying to), academic path change, or whatever else. With time you will find yourself thinking of him less and less.
I used to try force myself not to think of him. Wearing a rubber band and snapping the wrist. No, those tricks don’t really work. The only two things that work are accepting that it’s over and time.
Yet I said I am thinking of him today and becoming sentimental. Holidays, hormones, our last month together December last year. Actually not much together only pain.
Wanting to change career – anxiety. Disliking my job now creates emptiness and EUM “nostalgia” blows out of the proportion related to dissatisfaction in the professional life.
Focus on your life. But for that you have to know and agree with yourself that you two are done. Go NC COMPLETELY. No text no “have a nice day or Christmas.” Nothing. Or no response if he texts. I made that mistake 2-3 times. Set me back for months.
So yes, now, he popped up in my head out of habit. It is like the brain is saying, “Wait a second, I haven’t thought of such and such for a while, let me think of him. ” Ok, I am emotional now, so I am having sad moments, but so what? There is nothing to miss. Usery and humiliation all it was. I miss the potential of who he was I had thought. I miss the illusion, the dream relationship I had placed him into. I wanted a stable very long-term, marriage boyfriend. That’s what I am missing now. The man I thought he was. But it will pass.
Lynn, just decide for yourself it is OVER. I don’t think you have yet.
Thinking of him is ok. You will for many months more, but once you decide it’s over, the image of him in your head will become more like a habitual junk thinking. Spam which you discard. You will learn to brush it off and gradually he will not be on your mind anymore.
Thanks for your reply Sofia. I know its over. I’ve accepted its over. I don’t want him back. I think my issue is that I’ve an underlying need to be chosen. I realized the other day that I always feel like a second option sometimes to my friends, sometimes to my mom….whether I really am or not. For a long time I felt like a second option to him, even though he told me he never saw me like that because at that time we were friends. Even though he did choose me at one time, I guess ultimately I still want him to choose me and I think its just my ego/pride that is still hurt. I am seeing a counselor and she told me that I am not hurt over him, I am just hurt. I’ve thought about him for so long (3 years) that it’s so engrained in my brain. My counselor told me that I need to distract myself and start doing new things. And when I am thinking about him to say stop it, and work on distracting and thinking of other things. I started thinking of happy things when I find myself thinking of him like my favorite places or my nephew. Starting new tv shows on netflix distracts me greatly and I think I may do that. I have a 2 week break from work and I did that last year and it helped. I will say that last year at this time I was a mess. We were only 3 months NC and I was still very much devastated. I am definitely not carrying around the pain that I had last year which is good.
We are definitely NC. I have no plans to contact him and no desire too. But its frustrating when I woke up this morning thinking about him and I thought about what he will be doing Christmas morning with his gf. If they will have her son that morning and open presents together and when will he will get his son, which I know when he will get him, its always in the afternoon. He moved in with her really quick and now has an instant family. But really who knows how it will be. I quickly told myself, it doesn’t matter and started playing with my cat. But its things like that or things from the past that I think about it.
Hope you have a Merry Christmas!
Lynn,
I know the feeling of not being chosen or not being a priority. I felt like a second or rather third priority with my ex all the time. When he didn’t chose me, it hurt too. I am glad you are seeing a therapist. I think of what my ex is doing during Christmas too. With whom he is. Part of it is a habit, part of it is me still healing. Holidays bring on sentimental memories. With time we will think less of them. They naturally evaporate I think. I had an ex for whom I had strong feelings and it took about 3 years to not think of him at all. We were together for 2 years, but after he left he kept calling me and e-mailing me. Back then I didn’t know about NC concept, didn’t know anything about myself. I basically chose to live in a misery and was waiting for him to come back – to change his mind and realize how great I am (he moved to another country because he found a job there). If I had known BR I would have gotten over him in 6 months. He was a classic example of AC. No doubt about labeling. At a certain point I was just over him completely. No feelings at all. He still contacts me about once-twice a year. I don’t react. Delete.
We are working on ourselves, so it will happen soon for us in regards to our most recent ex’s. It’s the best when you don’t feel anything toward your ex. Just nothing.
Thanks, Sofia. I’ve started reading about my abandonment issues and I know this has really triggered my deep-seeded fears. I hope to overcome the abandonment fears once and for all this time. Maybe this is the relationship which knocks me on my ass and forces me to get real with my issues, fears and most of all to go forward in life no longer ignoring red flags, stop accepting crumbs, and really love me.
Elisabeth, I recognize myself in your words back in February this year. 🙂 Yes, it sounds like this is your epiphany relationship. You are facing your abandonment issues going back to childhood. You are facing the pain you have to heal and the pain goes back years back. That is what I have been doing for a year and today again I thought, “I am so blessed and happy that this person came into my life. The suffering I have gone through the entire year has finally brought me to the point I am today. I have never been so much content and confident in my life.” So I am grateful for the suffering I have had to experience. Because it opened up the doors to myself as a much happier and content woman. You will get there too and perhaps even sooner than me. It is great you are discovering underneath issues so early in the self-discovery process. You are self-aware! This experience is a blessing for you to get on the right path. You will see it very soon and have an “aha” moment. I promise!!:)
Elgie,
I love your post! I question myself many times as to what I really was in love with. I was a sexual conquest. A fallback girl. But like you, he was NEVER there for me and actually knows very little about me. But his crumbs were non-stop and I fed myself with them for validation. In fact, I just received a text from him Monday that said “Hey…miss you.” For the first time in five years, I didn’t respond.
Yay! Good for you!
David Essex, in my case …
But yes, I agree completely. I was thinking about this last night, about an unavailable man who I find attractive, and a social situation where I could have been with him, but I was too unwell yesterday to take part.
And then I thought, ‘Meh. He’ll talk to the other men and have a great time, and barely talk to me at all, because he really is happier the way he is. Is that REALLY what I want? This man cannot ever be what I want him to be. So I’ll just lie here and get better and not think about him any more.’
And I didn’t. I got a book and read instead. A great relief.
I havent been on here in a while but Im a still on fb and saw this post and clicked in. There are so many stories on here that are similar to mine. An ‘assclown’ who is unavailable who we give too many chances because we love them. I have realized during my period during NC that a huge part of me felt victimized. I had not truly forgiven him for what he did and said. I spent my days and night drowning in alcohol dependence and ignoring the rest of my life rewind and rewatching the past in my mind and picking it apart.
It was whn I had hit rock bottom that I finally told God to take it. I told Him that I could not do it anymore and that I was dying and it was after this conversation with God my life changed. It was only after God healed me that I could breathe without the pain. He told me to forgive the man who hurt me and he helped me do this. I let go and turned it over to God and have been walking with God since. This happened in June and now its December and He has turned my life around.
My unavailable has come knocking several times. He is hurting and has apologized a million times and only thru God have I not gone to him because I still love him. However, God took the hurt and has placed a peace that I had only read about before, but now experience, in me. Everyday. So now God is my number one. He is first. He saved me when I could not go on. I am no longer alcohol dependent, my heart is not breaking everyday. I am at peace and my life is finally getting on track. I have met a really great guy and we are taking it really slow. He also puts God first and I am happy about that.
I have never been a highly religious person but God revealed himself in my life. Literally. Now I live to serve Him. #LetGoAndLetGod <3 :))
IWokeUP, I could write what you wrote:) Very happy for you. I am in the same place. In every aspect. I hit the bottom February this year. And that’s when God picked me up although he had always been with me, but I just chose not to notice. Had never been religious before.
Not with a great guy though, but it doesn’t matter. First and mostly, I am with God. A relationship is just a possible addition to my current life.
Merry Christmas everyone, in the true meaning of this holiday and the way it is celebrated in the churches around the world.
Me three. Thank goodness I got/re-found religion when I did; I was a mess.
It’s given me real purpose and meaning again, plus a new extended family of people who feel and think the way I do. They are a support network, friends, people who share their kids with me, and who help me out when I need it too.
Happy Christmas!
Happy Christmas, Ethelreda! I too don’t know what the meaning of all of this at all if we don’t have faith.
So great to find friends and network of people who support you and think like you on some aspects.
And with faith, you are never lonely, alone or with someone else. You know what I mean.
I also couldn’t make it without my faith. I get lonely, sometimes, but I really do believe it is because I became a isolated. I’m working hard to change that, now. Things are getting so much better since I went back to depending more on my beliefs and my relationship with God. Men aren’t as important as I made them. I wish I hadn’t done that. I’m learning to just be grateful for what I have.
I am spending a quiet Christmas with me and my daughter. I wouldn’t want it any other way. I have learned to love the peace and tranquility. Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukah and happy holidays, everyone. Blessings.
Love,
Lori 🙂
Lori, I am spending a quiet Christmas with my daughter too. We went to the church service on Christmas Eve. It is the best Christmas in my life. No drama, no chaos, no anxiety, no men, no doubts and uncertainty. Just peaceful Nativity celebration and quiet family time. Wonderful holiday to reflect and be grateful for all the blessings that we have.
If you feel lonely sometimes it is maybe because you are isolated. As a single mom I know it’s not easy to build a social life and be out there most of the times. However, we are neither alone nor lonely.
We just need to keep looking for places and activities that will make us feel less isolated.
Being alone and getting used to it is not so bad as I have been learning. You really learn about yourself a lot by being one to one with yourself.
I really agree with what you wrote, Sofia: “It is the best Christmas in my life. No drama, no chaos, no anxiety, no men, no doubts and uncertainty.”
Amen.
I’m really happy, today. I am learning to be grateful for what I have, too. I believe this is an important key in recovering, for me. When I focus on what’s good, after awhile, I forget about what isn’t the way I wish it were. It’s a real peaceful place, and it just feels better and better.
I’ve been trying to do the things Natalie writes about and I’ve been trying to reach out to others with love, Sofia. What a difference it’s making. I’m losing this insecurity that I have always had and feeling at peace with my life-with me.
One step at a time. I don’t ever want to go back to the drama and crumbs and being treated like a second hand castoff.
You are so right, Sofia: “being alone is not so bad”.
I never thought I’d feel that way. It is ok and there are places to plug in. I just have to think and then face my fear. Church Sunday will be good step this weekend, I think.
My Mom sent me a music box. It plays “You Are My Sunshine”. My little girl is drawing these precious pictures to put in it. There is richness to life and a sense of well-being that I didn’t have before these bad relationships with men that I had. I crawled before. I feel I am living in the present and enjoying the moment, now.
It’s been a long, hard journey. (I’ve been reading here for awhile). I try to read every post and I am so grateful. It really can be done.
Thank you. Thank you all.
I wish you peace tonight.
Love,
Lori 🙂
I read through the comments above and noticed a little theme running through them about love. Mine included.
I’ve been in love in a long term and committed, above board, out in the open, merging of friends and family relationship.
Except none of those trappings meant that he loved me or treated me right.
I believe love is independent of who you choose to give it to. Its a feeling at the end of the day. No more and no less. For some, it informs the way they behave, for others it does not.
People say love is a verb. A “doing” word.
I believe it is an entity that stands on its own.
A “relationship” on the other hand is the thing that exists in the real world or not. Its the thing that needs “doing”
When involved in EU situations, what we do not have is a relationship. Whether it has the trappings of one or not. I do not believe this means there is no love present in these situations.
Love does not equal relationship and from what I have seen, a lot of enduring relationships exist without love. There is also attachment, attraction, friendship and a whole other host of things that go into relationships.
But love to me has always seemed to be something different.
First and foremost the love we give to ourselves is the biggest thing that will help us to gain perspective and happiness.
Sorry if I am rambling. I hope I am making sense. I just want those of you who have loved EUs and people that are not so great for you, to not necessarily feel that your love for them was not real. When that love has nowhere to go, or not a worthy candidate to receive it. Give it back to yourself.
Boo, interesting comments. It brings back the intense feelings of love I had for the AC, even when I was posting my grief on BR and going through a great deal of pain, it seemed almost to get more intense as our ‘relationship’ unravelled. I don’t know if it really was love, or if it matters to know. I walked away easily enough when it came to the crunch.
I think you feel love for someone when they become ‘just so-and-so’, ‘Just Fred’, ‘Just Wilma’ etc., they stop being someone you can pigeonhole and become someone totally unique who you can see and accept in their entirety. I have friends and co-workers who fit in this category and family who don’t.
When I turned love for the AC to myself, I saw that I was not only more compassionate to me, but also to others.
“I know so many people who brace themselves for this time of year as if they’re going to have teeth pulled without anaesthetic!”
It seems that no matter how much my life progresses during the year, no matter how vibrant, full and interesting it has been, I come back to this place of insecurity, aching sadness, loss and anger. Christmas in this place cares not for spontaneity, discovery and adventure, the things I thrive on, it extinguishes them and only recognises stable families and material wealth.
I can’t win. I’ve cut it down to spending a minimal amount of time with my fragmented family, but this just means a poor ratio of travelling around the country with heavy bags to rest time, so it now looks physically exhausting.
The only good xmases I remember are 3 times where I left the country, so I have resolved to do this in future and see my loved ones in January in more relaxed circumstances. I remember a lovely lecturer from years ago who would go on a cruise every year. She had the right idea.
BR has now become a part of my xmas Groundhog Day!
Happy
My best Christmas , Solstice actually, was when I’d just gotten together with my ex. He went to his men’s group party and a married woman friend asked me if, while I am waiting, would mind accompanying her to a Solstice celebration at the local lesbian commune. The women there knew we were straight yet accepted us completely, were so warm, loving. These complete strangers treated my far better than my damned family had ever thought of doing. When we got back, many of the folk in our activist center reassured me that my man would be there shortly. That my ex was considerably older than I, that the women he’d broken up with many months prior was dishing out serious dirt about us both, didn’t matter, they accepted us as a couple and were happy for us. Again, acceptance. We spent our first night together that evening at a friends cabin as I was supporting my dad at the time. I woke up witha sense of belonging, of joy, of “this is what it’s supposed to be like”. Later, sometimes we spent the holidays together, sometimes apart as his grandkids needed him more. It was OK. Now the holidays are almost a form of punishment, for what, I dunno. Still meet with resentment because I refused to attend the work holiday party. Made a wise call as one of the most creepy, racist, butt-grabbing individuals in the town was there and smacking someone upside the head at our parties is generally frowned upon. Saw ACs latest conquest driving down the main drag, saw AC himself on my way outta work; had to converse about a work issue. Screw up in a small town and there’s no escaping the situation. Ended the semester by getting into an argument with my supervisor over enrollments, her resistance to new programs, my need to not plod along teaching the same damned thing over and over and use my mind to create new programs, uplift our institution and our town. Am happy though that I now look forward to unstructured time where I can wander, get stuff done, be creative, accomplish something. I often thought, Happy, that if we all collectively decided not to “do” Xmas, especially the consumerism and the false obligations to fokk that do not value you, we’d not only take huge strides toward a more sustainable planet, but also clear some serious air within our families and communities.
Noquay, I like the idea of not doing Xmas, or stripping it right back. Some people are good at doing it low-key. I know a lot of other people struggle with it, and rather than making me feel comforted that I’m not alone, it just makes me more annoyed.
I’m not determined to be miserable, far from it. Today I was on one of the world’s busiest shopping streets and happily took photos for tourists and wished them a wonderful holiday. I have some great times with friends coming up. I just think it’s unfair that I have to keep my scrooginess to myself or I offend people, but no matter that others offend me by shoving their extreme consumerism in my face!
All we can do is get through it – but it really will change next year. I am an adult and as I often remind myself, I can do as I please. No one has forced me into this, so it’s my own responsibility to opt out or to accept the consequences if I play along. We have more choice than we think.
Christmas in this place cares not for spontaneity, discovery and adventure, the things I thrive on, it extinguishes them and only recognises stable families and material wealth.
Not in a tropical paradise with a pool bar … hehehehehehe
What’s bringing me down this holiday season is all the mandatory fun and all the pressure to feel a certain way. For me this time of year is about contemplation and is kind of sad — no, I don’t want to make cookies and sing carols, and that’s my right.
For me, the Solstice is the start of the new year and the rest of it is simply crap. I don’t bake cookies either; if I am going to take in empty calories, they’ll be in the form of a high end glass of wine; at least you get your anti oxidants that way.
NoMo, we owe it to ourselves and to others to be authentic. In my own experience, the people who are really OTT with it are using it as a mask for their issues of alcoholism, consumerism etc. I have once provoked a reaction of extreme anger when I was truthful about my feelings, but this really was her not problem, not mine, she is a pretty barmy family member!
But there are also those lovely people who just like baking and carols and hosting etc., let them do it and enjoy it, but as you say, we have rights too! Many others feel this way and we have to speak up for them as well as ourselves. We can dislike ‘it’ but keep our contact with people human and respectful. Lots of xmas revellers are happy to find someone being themselves, they can relax for a while!
Great post! I stupidly told my ex that I “hoped we could be friends” and “maybe even do some things together” when I ended the relationship. I felt guilty and I stupidly thought that ending the relationship would bring more respect and thoughtfulness my way. Everything was new to me and this was a mistake. I quickly realized that he would be treating me exactly the same way, now knowing he didn’t have to care about what I thought. I became aware that I don’t like the man, think he is a jerk and when I hear from him around a business issue (only a couple more months to go) or selling house issue, it still upsets me (less than it did but I am still “in process”) I believe in being consistent in my behaviour so it bothered me that I had changed my mind SO much. And I think he craftily exploits this by still acting familiar in his emails as if I would WANT to know anything about him. And telling him I really don’t want him in my life…I tried that. And of course it didn’t work. Well, just a long way of saying that it helped me to read this today.
Seasons greetings to all of you. I am living well in another city, getting my Phd and crafting a new life….feel well and am running again a lot. I can’t believe I made it through this year……
Espresso
Communicate with him only for business/house issues. When this stuff is over, pour yourself a good glass of red and delete his contact info for good. He will never treat you with respect simply because he is incapable of doing so. Congrats on the doctoral work and your new life.
Congratulations!
The trying to be friends with the EU’s is still a challenge for me. I’ve found that I’m still attracting them in my social circle, but I either don’t respond to their advances, or if I do, I realize before the 1st date that their EU and cancel the date. Most recently I met one I thought was great. He has many great qualities, but listening and showing genuine interest in me (or anyone most likely) isn’t part of the package. I think he’s gonna be the one to help me through some good work on myself. I see him a couple of times a month at regular event we both attend and it’s pretty painful for me. I’ve been using it as an opportunity to tune into the pain and ask myself when I felt this before (in childhood) and dive in and feel it! Brutal, but it seems to be working!
Veracity, I feel like I could have written that! I, too, seem to attract them and recently met a guy just as you describe. BUT, there are some red flags and I apart found myself trying to overlook them…STOP, I told myself. I MUST break this cycle. I MUST! Good luck to you and keep on track. You can do this!!
Meant to say I almost found myself…not apart. 🙂
Elisabeth, Thank you for the encouragement! I send it right back to you! 🙂 We can do it! I think that we are seeing it is the first step in breaking the cycle. I’m now working on updating my beliefs to include knowing that I am worthy of much better and that it is possible for me to have more. Hugs, Veracity
I am a thirty years old; I am way past the age of not relinquishing unnecessary stressors. I am not celebrating Christmas because I choose not to. I am sleeping in and eating pancakes. This every year is just nuts. And if I choose to have a child, my child will not be lied to about “Santa”. By me anyway.
Hi Karen,
I love the name you gave as Ayatollah Smurf… Visual. I came up with a good one a couple days ago. Seems there is new reality TV show where young women go into convents to see if they could become nuns. One of them showed up with high-end items like Gucci and Louie Vuitton… I named her Sister Saint Shop ALot. Humor assists in minimizing, taking them off pedestals/ power and/ or giving them accurate and funny identifiers. Named my X harem guy Invincible.. named another one jackass. Laughter is a good medicine!
LOL I had a boss I nicknamed, “The Devil Wears Payless.”
My ex I nicknamed, “Bait” because her romantic charm is only extended long enough to hook some idiot. Her wife is a Pisces so I call her Phish. Phish n’ Bait will be together forever–one is a doormat and the other is a cheating, conniving rat.
Hi everyone
I need some support, I wrote last week about me going out with a younger bf, it’s been 6 wks now, problem is he likes drinking, I have talked to him about this and he s promised me he will change as he doesn’t want to lose me. Ok I said I will see how it goes, that was last week, this week he got drunk with his mates twice, last night we had a talk and I told him how I feel about all this, he didn’t say much but was not very happy, he promised me to give him time, I text him last night explaining my feelings on this issue, it’s nearly Xmas and he doesn’t have any plans for us to do anything, we dont go out, he complains he doesn’t have money for us to go out, says I should give him a little time so he can sort out his finances, yet he has money to drink as he is self employed and gets paid daily, …
Last night after I text him saying my concerns he didn’t reply to me again, seems he is not happy with me explaining how I feel…earlier we had the same talk and he goes I’m not understanding and I should give him more time, since we met he’s always texting me to say how much he cares and misses me… Everytime I tell him how I feel about his behaviour he goes cold on me, it’s been an issue for me as I only have a drink when I go out, but my bf drinks whenever he has the cash to do so… 2 days ago he was drunk, called me and promised me so much and I kinda believed him cause I didn’t know at the time if he was drunk, I found out the next day as when we met and I ask him about all the stuff he said the night before he couldn’t even remember, like him saying he’s gonna take me out for a meal, inviting me at his family’s house on Xmas day…bla bla…I don’t know what to say, I feel I’m losing interest in him as I’m not sure if he’s serious even tho he says he doesn’t want to lose this relationship, I don’t see any effort on his part…
Any support please.
Kadija
to loose interest – fast! Good idea!!
Kadija,
Since I’ve been in this situation and can tell you with certainty that nothing will come from this but pain and mindfuck for you, let me be blunt.
You’ve set some standards for your relationship and his behavior and he said he’d try….well he did for about a week (seriously that’s not trying) and now he’s back to being exactly what he WANTS to be. You telling him all about himself will do nothing but make him turn cold (like you said he is) because he doesn’t want to hear it. He is who he is and you can’t come in and turn him into a new man to suit your needs. You’ve spoke your mind to him more than several times, and he still does exactly what he wants, you keep talking. You’re showing him with your actions ( sticking around to tell him all about himself) that you’re still kinda willing to deal with it, as much as you tell him you aren’t. Sorry, but his drinking issue is not something you can talk him out of and this relationship is doomed. Walk (eerrr, run actually) away now while in the early stages. I’ve been in your situation and it only went from bad to worse and I got very badly hurt, lied to, and messed with. Let it go for your own sake. He is not relationship material, at all, not even a tiny tiny bit.
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/?s=talk+to+much&submit.x=13&submit.y=12
Read this if you get a chance. You might find it helpful.
Kadija,
This is so new, please leave this relationship.
This is who this guy is. He has drinking issues and if you’re not comfortable – I wouldn’t be either – then it must end. He told you he would stop, but he has already gone back on his word, twice.
It almost sounds like you’re a parent to this guy, do you really want to continue down this path?
The actions say it all.
Imagine my hand holding yours steady as you press the flush handle. NEXT
Get thee to an al anon meeting! The members and the program’s publications will explain to you how your boyfriend’s behavior is potentially that of an alcoholic. They don’t judge or give advice.
I’m feeling really annoyed with how I let this guy treat me. It really upsets me when I think about how disrespected I was, yet I was kind enough to be the bigger person and apologize for something, thinking he might then subsequently apologize for his actions. He didn’t, and the way the situation was left, it’s almost like he thinks he is so much better than me, and I’m really pissed off about it. Like, what a freaking jerk. What is wrong with people that they think they can treat people like dirt and then walk on like they did nothing wrong? With no remorse? Like, how do they sleep at night?
Jamie, this is something to learn from.
We try so hard to be the decent person – we think it gives us some kind of credit to be treated well, but sadly it gives a jerk more room to screw with us. That’s not to say we shouldn’t keep on being kind and generous, but we need to think about where we’re directing that kindness, and why. In your case, you thought it would come back to you. But any kind actions have to be for their own sake, not with any expectations. Sorry to be harsh, but you weren’t being genuinely kind, you were trying to manipulate him into action, and it backfired because you 1. compromised your own integrity, apologising for something you didn’t need to apologise for, and 2. you didn’t get the response you wanted.
Over-giving is very damaging, it puts us in a mode of being disappointed and downbeaten, but it’s entirely of our own making. It makes us victims and martyrs, do you want to be that way? Can you see others, perhaps in your family, who follow this pattern? You have to be firm and put yourself first, because no one else will. Then your generosity will go to the right places and for the right reasons. I learned this the very, very hard way, but some people never do.
Oh, I’m going on again, I don’t know why I keep falling for jerks, charmers, last night he called me, I was busy at the time, when I call him back he didn’t pick it up, until now he’s not responded. I think this is some stupid mind games, he keeps asking me if I love him when we talk, why? It seems like he wants to know if I’ve fallen for him so he can give me grief.
I’ve decided today to end it, after spending 5 yrs in a relationship were I was the one trying to fix things all along, now I can’t believe it I’m dating another jerk, he was such Annie guy to begin with… Don’t know what’s the problem with some men…. Sometimes I feel like giving up and staying solo.
So many empty promises, texting, calling, once you start to think things are going well, everything just turn opposite, all my relationships have been the same for the past 15 yrs, I wonder if I’m the problem? Guys come as really nice and suddenly they do a u turn and things start to go downhill and I’m all hooked up and keep trying to fix things..
It’s very depressing to move back and forth in relationships.
Kadija,
If you keep falling for jerks, then you are the common denominator.
Look at your patterns and who YOU are attracted, and most importantly why.
Thanks for all your wise words ladies. I re-read my post and it does sound like I take no responsibility (or very little). I think it was just because I was so upset at him when I posted (the break up is pretty fresh). But it’s been very helpful to read your comments. I have been so up and down the last couple of days. He is on vacation with his wife right now and all I want to do is email and tell him off. Or just email and say that I don’t want to talk again ever. But I’m trying to go no contact instead. It’s day 4 of 18 (my goal until I’m back to work in the new year). I’m really hoping I’ll make it. He says he wants to try to be friends in the new year and I really wish we could because I just love being with him (we were really close friends for about a year and a half before we got together). I just can’t though. Should I tell him now or later? This is so tough. :(. Also taking your advice to work on myself and why this happened. Thanks.
Leane,
You don’t reach out to someone to tell them you want NC. You simply go NC.
If you are really regretful of this situation you will cut it off, completely! You cannot be friends. Do you really believe that a man that would do this to you is your friend? Stop making excuses and end this with this guy, once and for all. Tell him to leave you alone or you will go to HR.
Tell him you will go to HR, only if he continues to pester you at work.
Leanne, you dont need to tell him anything. NC doesnt require conversation, or more drama.
I was talking to a friend today and telling her how resistant I was to go NC. I remember telling another friend, first, why can’t i still sleep with him? [she kindly wrote an email where she said she’d picked the 5 out of 100 reasons that applied]. Then I was like well I guess the only thing I am willing to do is have coffee, not dinners etc. And then I had another friend say errrm no, nothing more with this guy unless other people are also there, no more one-on-one. I had to wrestle with this till I was finally able to see the light fully and say yes, no more anything, no more drama, no need to explain myself. [does he explain to you why he keeps pursuing you while he’s still married? no. then you dont need to explain NC]. I eventually realized that I also have to be ready to forge new friendships and give up our shared social circle if it comes to that.
Its okay, it will take you a while to get over your resistance. But its good to recognize it for what it is. You are resistant to NC, to give up your romantic dreams, and accept that you made an error of judgment. You need to work on that. Keep looking for advice, keep telling us how its going.
I’m telling you now what I needed to hear from my friends – no more anything with this guy, no explanation texts, emails or calls, no ‘please treat me badly once again’ smoke signals, no sighing looks, go home and scream into a pillow but the rest of the time when you are around him, total unsentimentality. Be professional. If he calls you on the office line? [I leave that as an exercise for you – how to respond to him with NO drama at all, yet with firm no-nonsense boundaries. Watch some Audrey Hepburn, Katherine Hepburn, and other no-nonsense ladies. Channel some classiness, some frosty ‘yes, dear wormy man, why should i pay attention to you ever’ looks.]
I tell myself that sometimes you like an EU/AC and thats okay, forgive yourself. We all like the wrong person and it takes a while to get out. You’re out. Now stay out.
I had a couple of people tell me ‘he’s not your friend because friends dont treat each other like this’ and it was like a light went on. So I’m telling you ‘he’s not your friend, he’s not your boyfriend, he’s not anything but a guy that disrespects your boundaries’. Please go out and be your kick-ass self, you are not such a weak person as you are painting yourself. And I have realized that my recent EU is a blessing in disguise – he has forced me to rethink what ‘casual’ means to me, and what kind of person I am looking for now that I am older than the last time around.
[the truth is neither of you were friends to the other. You might resist NC as it fundamentally involves responsibility for inappropriate choices that you know werent working, and responsibility for future behavior, and no more ambiguous dating. These are difficult choices to make].
Leanne,
You cannot be friends with him. If you do, you’ll be back in his arms before you know it, then you’ll be crying, miserable, and alone once again. Break it off for good. I’ve been there. It’s the only way to find peace. You have to love yourself enough to put that boundary in place.
You don’t need to tell him. You don’t need to explain. Just go NC and end it.
Get through this time by being as nice as you can be to yourself. Go shopping. Buy new clothes. Hang out with girlfriends. Clean your house. Exercise. Buy little treats. Just get through this time.
Take Nat’s self-esteem class. I did, it helped so much! Good luck!!!
I.need my ass kicked I guess. EUM.broke up with me over text. he refused to talk about anything. left me for somebody ten yrs younger. initially I texted and emailed a few times but he didn’t answer me. so now it’s been about 4 months of NC. Last night at a Christmas party, I found myself composing and erasing texts to him. when I left the party I drove down his street, I have never done anything like that.I told myself that if it looked like he was home, and no other cars in the driveway, I would text him and ask to talk. I was horrified to see a car in the driveway and it made me cry.which is stupid because he did leave me for somebody else. I drove home and then I texted him:”could we get together and talk and just catch up, and if he didn’t answer me I would take that as my answer and never bother him again. five minutes later I was shocked that he answered me back.he said yeah sure but not now. I said ok.now I feel kinda sick and stupid. I do miss him terribly. but he did leave me, he did break.up in a cowardly fashion. maybe I’m trying to get closure? which I know is stupid. maybe he will never contact me. all I could think about all day was seeing that car in his driveway I kind of let it ruin my whole day. and I haven’t told any of my friends or family. they would be very unhappy.I feel like I’m keeping a secret and lying but I don’t want to tell anybody.I don’t have another therapy appointment for 3 weeks. in spite of a lot of ups and downs I have been getting better. I.guess im going to.have to blame Christmas. Ugh. I’ve worked.on myself, but apparently not enough.I think I’m still looking for validation from him. I need.help.
his driveway, cried, got the hell out of there & drove home. then I texted him asking if we could please talk sometime, just to catch up and didnt.he miss my company?.&.if.he.didnt.answer me, that would BE.his.answer.& I.would.never contact.him again. Five.minutes later he texted me back, saying:” yeah, sure,but not now. I texted “ok”. Now I feel kinda sick
Phone/ typing glitch. Disregard the last couple.sentences.which basically repeat what I.wrote.
Echoes- You had a lonely, painful moment and you let it get the best of you. That’s ok. You don’t have to talk to him. You can change your mind. It’s allowed. 😉
Thank you, Rosie. I haven’t heard from him and I’m trying to forget about it and stay busy and keep working on myself. I never thought it would take so long to get over this. I’m really glad Christmas is over. It was hard for me.
For all of you who are struggling with a married man, an alcoholic, or a verbally abusive man, I want to share my story with you. Three years ago I met a man who seemed to be the man of my dreams. He was very handsome, my age, a ship captain, smart, wealthy, and very charming. We would get together as often as his sailing schedule allowed, and it was one amazing party after another for us two. The sex was mind-blowing. We traveled, danced, dined, and saw the world together. But things started to fall apart very soon. After a while, he told me he was married but “separated” from his wife. After a while, I noticed that he drank a LOT all the time–and scotch and whiskey made him so mean, like an angry wolf. I started to realize that he wasn’t as nice to me as he’d been at the start–he yelled often, put me down, called me names, etc. But the romance of it all kept me absolutely ga ga over him. I was more than in love, I was addicted. The highs were very high, but the lows were very low. The drinking got worse, the divorce never happened, and the snotty, rude comments got more painful and harder to bear. I realized that I was crying all the time, depressed, and the relationship was damaging my health and my mind. I was such a mess. My career was suffering. I cut myself off from friends and family. My health tanked. I found this site and my instinct told me I would find help here. I read and read. I saw what the problems were right away, but it took me a while to break it off with him. When I did break it off he saw it as a challenge and he continued to pursue me. I went NC but he kept calling, texting, and asking his brother to call me. Yes I changed my phone number, I blocked his email, but believe me if a man wants to harass you he will find a way. One day he called me 20 times at work, on a phone system that I could not block from. Yes, I stumbled a few times and gave in to him, but I could feel myself getting stronger each day. It has now been 9 months since NC. Every month on the 19th (my NC anniversary day) I celebrate and honor myself. I am going to really splurge when March 19 comes around. Ladies, if you are suffering in your relationship I urge you to read as many of these posts and blogs as you can. Take Natalie’s self esteem class. Read all of her books. Get counseling. Try to break away. My life is so calm now. I smile every day. I haven’t cried since the day I said goodbye for good to him. I am dating a new man who is very kind, very sweet, single, and not an alcoholic. I am taking it slow with him. I am guarding my peace of mind and happiness.
I just want to say–hang in there. You can break free. You can begin again. You can learn to love yourself and set healthy boundaries in place. 🙂
Hugs to Natalie and to all of you beautiful sisters here who help each other on this journey.
Yes I changed my phone number, I blocked his email, but believe me if a man wants to harass you he will find a way.
oregon girl, that line there just jumped out and bit me! It’s the best way of reminding yourself that ‘If he is interested, HE WILL CALL’.
Too often we think guys are just shy, etc, when actually they are not interested – and when they ARE interested, nothing will stop them from pursuing.
Whether the pursuit is good or bad for you, is another matter. But boy, they can pursue when they want to.
I have some unsolicited advice I came by the hard way. If your lover/spouse etc. seems shady, they probably are. I say dump them and run, and if it turns out they weren’t shady, watch how fast they run and how hard they work to get back with you. You are worth it.
My new year motto:
I left all my relationship bullshit in 2014.
Thanks guys, I am so, so grateful for this site. I agree that just NC without explanation is best… thanks for your thoughts. I already told him before that I can’t be friends with him because my feelings were too strong (and then caved when he came back in hot pursuit), so it can’t really be a big surprise or mystery to him if I really go no contact. I just really worry Im not strong enough. But what would be worse than losing him (which is clearly necessary here) would be to lose him but also act like more of a fool in the process than I already have and have him walk away thinking bad things about me 🙁
Anyways, I have a feeling he will go no contact with me now since I kinda lost it on him. Or alternatively he might email in the new year to ask how my break was and if I want to come by his office and chat. My plan is to just say “I don’t think its a good idea, sorry.” No other explanation really necessary, right? I want to end this without drama. I think that’s the best move (though it will be very hard to do).
On a separate note, I am feeling so badly about myself these past couple days!! I know I shouldn’t care about what he thinks, but I can’t help but feel like such a loser that I got myself into this situation and that he probably thinks I’m an idiot for some of the stuff I said and did at the end. Nothing terrible but a bit embarrassing. I hate these thoughts. I know they will go away with no contact, but right now they are horrible. Made it through day 4 of no contact though!!
Dear Leanne,
going NC is something you do for yourself, not so that you prevent ‘have him walk away thinking bad things about me’. What he thinks does not matter. You are judging yourself as an ‘idiot’ and projecting it onto him, as if those were his thoughts. The truth is, you don’t know what he thinks, and most likely given the chance, he would just come back and poke (they almost always do). So walk away with your head kept high, be gentle and kind to yourself, and all will be ok in the end. Trust!
I’m saying this as someone who has held on tight to her hurt for far too long. Only therapy in my case and trying to be good to myself have slowly freed me. I still have a lot of work to do on myself, but when I finally surrendered and decided to trust, things have improved immensely. Best of luck!
Well, why are most of us here? Because most of us have fallen for someone who was emotionally unavailable, involved with someone else, or just not able to have a healthy relationship. I sometimes look back on some of my relationships and cringe. I ask myself “Oh, God, what was I thinking? HOW could I have done that, said this, picked that person?” You’re certainly not the only one. What I’ve learned from the posts here, is that I didn’t have models of healthy relationships. I didn’t know what to look for. I often failed to recognize red flags when I saw them. Even if I did recognize the flag, emotions led me to rationalize them away. It wasn’t just that I had blind spots — I didn’t even know that I had the blind spots. This site, and these posters have been a Godsend. Yes, going no-contact is painful at first, but the alternative is worse. My advice is to take it one day at a time, and keep reading and posting here. You can do it, it does get better with time.
Leanne,
I think it might help to start focusing on his wife and how she’s affected, not so much on how foolish you may look.
Are there kids involved?
Leanne,
I know I’m being tough, but nothing makes me more crazy than these types of situations – they are hurtful to so many.
Glad to hear that you have a plan in place. Stick to it. I would also consider some therapy to understand what would take you to this place.
Thanks Allison. No kids involved. I was actually in a very long term relationship when this started (way longer than his) but broke things off when my feelings grew so strong for this guy. He encouraged me to do so, but like I said, never said directly he wanted be same thing. Just lots of talk about wanting to be with me. I realized I couldn’t carry on in my relationship anymore, so made a plan to move out and be on my own. I am now working through that. It’s really for the best were not together and I spend a long time on my own to heal and learn from this. I guess it must have scared him that I actually wanted more than he did. I get that he’s married, and I didn’t want to hurt anyone. But I have spent my whole life just doing what everyone thinks I should and I felt like this was different. He said the same thing was true for him, but then he back pedalled hard when push came to shove and I told him I couldn’t cary on like this. We either needed to be together or end it. Anyways, it doesn’t matter. I should have never gotten involved with this guy. And now I have to do the tough work of moving on and healing. I can already tell that NC is helping. And I do hope to learn and grow from this.
Anyone who thinks dallying with a married person isn’t that big a deal should spend some time at Chump Lady ) and read about the devastation infidelity causes to spouses and especially, children. She rightly names the betrayal of cheating as a form of abuse that causes incredible trauma, rips apart families, and results in pain that takes years, if ever, to get over. You want to be part of that? At least inform yourself about what is really going on when you do.
Wiser – You are wise indeed. I absolutely love that website you referred here. Chumplady.com. Just like Natalie’s website here, my oh my what a great website that is too. I really liked her theory “The Humiliating Dance of Pick Me” and the “Unified Theory of the Cake”. I love how she gets into the motives of these cheaters. Love it! Thanks for sharing.
Dear Leanne,
I’m new here (posting) though I’ve been reading BR for more than a year now (since a breakup I went through two summers ago), and I’m so so grateful to Natalie for this blog and how it helps so many of us to feel better just so often. I just would like to say how sorry I am to hear that you’re going through this. Yes, i think all the ladies/girls here are right in that it’s a nasty situation and it’s true that it always takes two to have a romance or an affair. But when it comes to feelings, I perfectly believe you when you say you loved him, and I feel your pain. It feels the sadder when you realise he’s not such a lovely person as you liked to think he was… But, although these situations are always complicated, still you shouldn’t feel guilty. You did so well that you acknowledged that all that was wrong and you were brave enough to tell him and decide to cut contact. I say brave because, when you have feelings for someone, it always takes guts to be the first to break whatever is going on, especially when he makes it look like “it’s all fine, we’re so fine together, I’m suggesting Let’s be “friends”!” Cutting contact that way does take courage, but I agree with everybody else here in that it’s the only right thing to do.
There’s no point in trying to be nice and be friends with a man who is messing with everyone’s – his wife’s AND your – feelings. He may seem “lovable” to you, he may be sweet and acting nice, this is how it happens sometimes, but he’s not – he can’t be because he just can’t give a damn about how you feel, while you may be feeling sorry that you’re no longer talking to him. If he were nice, then even if he found himself in a hard situation where he’d have to choose, he wouldn’t be messing with you. He’d have to make a decision. Instead, he prefers not to choose at all – or, rather, he chooses what’s convenient for him: he wants to keep his wife AND have you somewhere close, regardless of the pain he’s causing you (and his wife). This is not a sign of a considerate person. He’s really not worth your pain, your time and your health (because this is so unhealthy!)
Please don’t blame yourself, you sound like a nice person, and it’s very sad you’re going through this. I think you see it all so clearly though and, despite “roller coaster” days (they always happen!) you’re on the right path. This guy gave you some crumbs and you fell in love with him. You should know that you deserve better, much better. This takes a little time, but as soon as you realise that you’re actually worth something real, something that would make you happy (and which, btw, wouldn’t make you feel like a terrible person!), you’ll find yourself with someone who truly cares for you and who deserves your attention and regard. (And I think that consciousness is already there in you, because you weren’t happy with this affair on his terms… and that’s the healthy “you” saying “NO!” to his BS :))
Have patience, love. You’re worth so much more.
lovely, compassionate and understanding response :)A help to me too. Thank you 🙂
Thanks Mee, that was a really sweet and helpful response (made me cry actually). I’m on day 6 of no contact and I can feel today is a sad one. Does he even miss me? Did he ever even love me? It doesn’t matter, but these thoughts run through my head. I will keep going no contact. But I really really appreciate the love and support on here. It is so nice to know that other people have been through this stuff (and made it through!). I’m hoping to come out the other end a better person (and hopefully be one of the great gals posting responses on here for others). I’ve planned a bunch of fun things to do over the next two weeks to fill the time while I’m in initially no contact. And I’m trying to do some thought work (and booked an appointment with a counselor in the new year). I can’t wait to get past this… It is so sad. But I know I’ll have a great life again. I just need to get past the embarrassment and sadness of this 🙁
Ahh I’m glad you’re feeling at least a little better, Leanne, and you too, Boo 🙁 Yes, you will definitely come out the other end, and you’ll be much stronger (i.e. you’ll know what you need and you’ll love you more and treat yourself better and will therefore only accept nice, caring behaviour towards you)… just give it a little time.
Please don’t worry that you’re having these sad days, when you wonder whether he has ever loved you. I do understand the feeling 🙁 About that, it seems to me that when people feel like being with us, it’s because they enjoy it and love those moments (for whatever reason). But in this situation, no matter how much he might have enjoyed having you there for him (I say! at work!), and even though he might thus ‘miss’ you as his “friend” (yeah, no contact sucks, at least sometimes, especially because it hurts their ego so much), it was a very selfish option the one which he wanted to enjoy, at your expense, by cheating and making you part of that. What I mean here is that, should he have any feelings and common sense (deep down), he’ll understand. He can’t blame you for choosing to walk away. Why should you want to be the OW?? Especially this NOT being the case when he’s been telling you “I’ll get a divorce, etc. etc.”, but just the other way round. It’s nuts. And if he can’t see it, then not only is he an incredibly selfish chap, but also an idiot, hopeless. In either case, though, he’ll respect you so much more for choosing you! (Because he is just NOT an option – he’s not offering you anything but pain and crap…)
xx
Oh, and just another thing. You miss him now, you still care for him, but imagine yourself in the position of his wife – i don’t mean right now “you’re doing something wrong”, i actually mean you probably wouldn’t feel very lucky having such a husband (now that you know him)… which leads to, Would you really like to be in a relationship with that guy, even if he were free?
Yeah, you are so right Mer. I think there’s this crazy feeling like that it would be different with us. I need to get my head out of the clouds and process this grief. If he were to leave and be with me, he’d probably be back and forth with her on the side and/or other girls. It’s a total dead end regardless of his choice. I wish I just didn’t care. He’s definitely acted like a jerk, but I keep feeling sad and missing him. I’m just in early stages of grief I guess. It’s good he’s away on a vacation as it gives us a natural break to start off on this new path (no contact). Im trying to distract myself but swing hour to hour between dreaming about him and wanting to tell him off. What a painful situation! I wish I had stuck to my guns and cut off contact in October when I first tried to so that I had dealt with it earlier. But I guess this is why I have to stay no contact now (so that Im not saying this about this time around!!) How can you feel so strongly for someone who treated you badly and you know you have no future with?? Insanity! I wish there was a way to speed up this process. Day 6… Thanks for your support 🙂
And I know I sound crazy.. He is married.. What was I thinking! I was so blinded by my feelings. That’s the part that’s so embarrassing. Was it just one-sided? Ugh, I hate suddenly feeling that way and doubting what happened. i need some serious space from this. I am looking for a new job, but with the field I’m in it could take awhile.
No, you arent crazy and it wasnt one sided …men are very good at looking after themselves and moving on …they believe even that its part of being a ‘good guy’ , sticking to their responsibilities, being open about what they need, what isnt working for them, letting go etc …women end up being the ‘crazy one’ for the texts asking did i ever mean anything, why didnt this mean more to you, etc etc ….
You fell in love, the love was real. You are a good person. But you deserve to be with someone , who can be yours. You know you do.
To all of you going recently NC , enjoy the holiday when you feel like it and don’t feel bad about retreating and withdrawing when you feel the need for silence and quiet …I feel stronger now that I’m not forcing myself to feel all fine like nothing happened and I’ve told myself its fine if it takes even a year to stop dwelling. Go with the flow, (except where the flow takes you to break NC !)…
Hi all,
Thanks to Nat for her amazing articles and to all the commentors on here for your inspiring posts.
2014 has been one of the toughest years of my life and finding this blog recently (just a month or so ago) has helped me tremendously. It was a Godsend in some ways as I was grappling about to find some support to just get me through.
Well, I have read so many ppl’s experiences here and learnt and drawn strength from it – that its only fair I give back. I have shrunk back from posting my story on here a few times cos I know I wasnt an innocent victim of an EU or AC …I made some terrible judgement errors …learning to forgive myself is the hardest part but the most essential one to pulling onseself out of similar mistakes and doing better ….here is the summary = I met my husband when I was just 23 (12 years ago, almost 13) …it was kinda a long distance romance (two different cities) so mostly online, phone , then meeting ….whirlwhind romance (a lot of it in my head really , fantasies rather than reality, he was a practical person who was weighing in my qualities, which isnt a bad thing, while I was literally head over heels and very little hard thinking) …anyway, we got married in just about 18 months of knowing each other, I was so caught up with ‘get married at 25, have a baby while still in late twenties, a beautiful house with picket fence by 30, blah blah blah ‘ …..the marriage these past 10 almost 11 years has been mostly hard work ….right after we got married,I realised he enjoyed his family and friends company more than mine , but I see now i worried a lot more about that than asking myself, the times we did spend together, did we have a whole lot to talk or laugh about ? was I per se happy? I focussed too much , TOO much, on external variables on did not read myself at all. I wont get into too much detail but I was essentially a very joyful , funloving , vibrant person upto 23 but slowly changed after marriage cos I blamed myself for not being able to make it a success( although I had plenty of resentment leftover for his family and friends, who i felt sidelined me, im not proud to admit to all this gross immaturity , but I was young and silly) …..anyway , he started at one point hanging out with various women who were just friends ( i have no proof that they were ever anything more) ….I didnt feel the slightest inclination to hang out or even befriend any other men. despite the fact that we found that we were not very sexually compatible. shockingly enough, the years went by with status quo and I started thinking a child was THE SOLUTION and life would be perfect after that ….i had a son when i was 30 ….after that about two years of just focussing on the baby, and I emerged at age 32 , feeling like we , me and my husband, were two roommates,or housemates sharing rent ….he barely ever wanted to go out with me or do anything together like a movie ….I look back now and wonder if the surge of unhappiness I felt 3 years ago was just boredom or post partum syndrome , but there had been violence in the marriage about a handful of times so I know all the sadness wasnt just imaginary drama ….(incidents when he hit me i mean and then said i was an annoying btch and any man would have done that) ….anyway, I dont know how it happened, but almost suddenly but maybe 10 years in the making , I found myself a couple of years back, having not much feeling for him or no real desire to stay in the marriage. i started taking interest in my hair and clothes again after years and years of not doing so and went to the gym and worked on things that made me happy , even mundane things like writing online more which used to be a hobby of mine ..this is the part where I feel so ashamed to write ,but I got attracted to a colleague of mine at work …he was 9 years younger than me …..it started off as us both talking about our relationship/s ..he had just broken up with a woman he had been crazy about for years cos she was unfaithful , he admired that I had stayed faithful to my marriage for 10 years despite a lot of unhappiness ….we became friends, that lead to flirting which made me feel things that I had thought for long happened only in books and movies (I was an attractive girl when my husband first met me, and I had other men interested but somehow when the marriage had no heat, I forgot it even existed out there, for years and years) ….nothing physical happened, cos he was in another city office location ( so you see, long distance attraction seems to be the only way it works for me ?) …so it mostly chatting on the office network, phone , and seeing each other during office Video conferences and met in person only once for a week , during office conference …..I know this whole story sounds ridiculous, but thats hindsight …..anyway, as the months passed by i got more and more drawn in , at one point i told my husband i wanted out and i stupidly admited i wanted to be with this other guy ….my husband called the other guy and threatened he would ruin his career ( all drama caused by my big mouth and refusal to ever be a grown up) …the other man, told me he had never meant to be the cause of me leaving my marriage , and ‘lets just be friends, no more flirting, go back and work on your marriage since you have a child’ …my husband started doing small things albeit but still an effort to try and make me happier so I stayed (he also said he would fight bitterly in the custody courts if i ever left) ..im sighing again and again as I type this …so there I was for about 6 months after all this …still in my marriage, still working with this other guy in the same team same office altho two different locations …he did well enough ‘at just being friends’ I struggled constantly and kept thinking of all the other stuff he had said to me during the first 3 or 4 months and it wasnt just flirting …it was sweep me off my feet stuff that , well, had really swept me off my feet …he kept saying even at that point that he would ‘support’ me as a friend if I left the marriage but we could ‘never be anything more’ …altho at the beginning he had said the age diff didnt matter, it did of course, i knew it did, i understood, and i wanted better for him than me of course …but I felt heartbroken through that period, nonetheless ..anyway, I quit the job , there was some more drama around that time, more of the same really ….bottom line, I dont have any more contact with ‘other’ even tho he expressed that he is ‘always there as a friend’ which i guess means when he is bored or one of the young women he is really interested in didnt reply back and hes trying to get his mind off that, and I can be really entertaining I suppose with all my antics…..anyway, I am glad that contact is fully off now. A. I need to give my marriage a ‘real’ chance without someone else in the picture , who confuses my thought processes even tho he doesnt mean to. I think my marriage could now be better given that my husband did try to fight for me to stay , i think we should both try now at working on it , more so cos we could never agree on custody the whole of last year that divorce came up 2. truthfulness is important, I dont want to talk to that other guy anymore behind spouse’s back after all this has happened. 3. I dont think the other person’s life , he has clearly moved on from those brief few months of discussing ‘something more’ and feeling that close to each other. 4. I know I need to move on from what happened with the colleague.
But having said all that, I know it sounds very pathetic but I miss him a lot and miss our conversations, it was literally hours everyday for a whole year (yeah, I have neever ever done anything non work during office before that, and I know that aspect made this all the more wrong, it was the main reason I quit there and joined somewhere else, where I hardly even talk to anyone if its not about work)
Staying NC can still be a struggle when I sometimes at the very least feel like snooping on his facebook page or girls from the old office twitter pages to see if something is being said abt him etc ….I know he wasnt an AC or EU …i dont know if my husband fits into the definitions, probably does ….but right now, I am hurting a lot and the hurt is probably mostly self inflicted as I know I have consistently shown poor judgement ….I know that self esteem and not working for my own happines has caused a lot of this ( I mean the one time I do somehting wrong and reach out to someone outside the marriage, why have it be someone 9 years younger and long distance and then spend so much more energy on yearning …I must really hate myself to set myself against the impossible all the time) …I know a little bit of what I want now, I want to take a lot of time to reflect on all of this , I want to listen to other ppl have made poor choices and been in sad relationships and how they have coped and what the learning was. I guess Im saying I want nothing more right now than to introspect for a while. Time spent with my 5 year old son gives me joy and its the one blessing I thank God for every single day.
You tell us your marriage for 10 years has “mostly been hard work” and you found that you were not “sexually compatible” and you “stayed faithful to the marriage for 10 years despite a lot of unhappiness” And there have been incidents in the marriage of “violence” where he has hit you. Of course you miss your colleague, sounds like he was nice to you, sounds like husband is awful. You are young, find a therapist to regain your self esteem and a future which I think does not include your husband.
I agree!
I think you deserve some happiness and peace.
You should never stay with an abusive partner.
I’m the same person who posted as rags_mom and then realised I prefer not referring myself to someone’s someone all the time in my user names ….
Anyway @Leanne, your posts were the ones I read right before posting mine, I felt your sadness and pain hearing your story, Ive spent time both being a victim of sorts and a cheater of sorts too I guess…just one thing, he may have started out really hoping to leave the marriage and be with u and realised it was harder than he thought, i dont know , but either ways u did THE RIGHT THING getting out of it and to NC. Stay strong. I think people of both genders cross lines that they shouldnt when love or attraction comes into the picture, and women find it very very hard to forgive themselves,but the difference I feel between the genders is men are by nature maybe …’users’ to some extent or the other, i dont neccesarily mean that in a bad way …but they are good at doing casual …at heated passionate relationships turning into lukewarm how have you beens ….but women , 95% of women, cant do casual friendships once a romance or an almost romance, forbidden or otherwise has ended. I’m starting to think that we women prefer abrupt endings sometimes to seeing what we cherish so much sink in to casual indifference by going ahead with what these men suggest ‘ lets just be friends and be grown up about it’
You are soooo right; we women emotionally attach quickly and strongly. I think about the impact of a failed rship with hotrunnerguy, 4 hours away vs. AtworkAC, right in my damned face for now going on 3.5 years, 5 days/week. In order to maintain NC as much as I can, I have, literally becone a hermit both in my workplace and in my community 9 months out of the year. We chix really, truly need to only respond to men we need never, ever, see again if things go south. I cannot imagine the pain those of you with kids with an ex go through.
Caramel or rags
You really seem like someone who has been traumatized and is slowly coming to that realization. Yep, you need to see a therapist, get “you” back. When we become attracted to another while in a marriage/relationship, it’s a warning sign that something’s terribly wrong with our primary relationship. We don’t have to nor should act upon that attraction but recognize it for what it’s telling you.
Rags_mom,
This sounds so similar to my story in many ways. I hope you are well and it sounds like you’re focussing on the right things. Have you tried counseling? I have signed up for some serious in the new year. I’m looking forward to the clarity that that hopefully brings. Right now my self esteem is so battered that it’s hard to think about anything clearly. But you sound like a nice person in a tough situation. I feel for you!!
Rags,
The younger guy isn’t really relevant. It’s natural to be attracted to someone who treats you decently after spending years with an ass, as you have.
I think your focus needs to be on ending this marriage first, and then learning how to become emotionally available yourself once that’s taken care of. Healing yourself is essential before starting something new when you are free to do so.
Bad enough that your husband treats you the way he does–hitting you is inexcusable–but your child is learning how to behave from this man. It’s a toxic environment for a child to grow up in. He will turn out to be Just like your husband unless you take quick action now.
Your child will be in school shortly and so you will be able to earn and save money very soon. Your husband’s threats around custody will be moot when you bring up his physical abuse of you in court. No sane judge will accept the “You deserved it” line.
Good luck and happy holidays.
Merry Xmas Nat.
You still remain the only source that has told me the truth about relationships. I didn’t have a life before BR. Now I have a solid career path, self-esteem, and purpose.
Thanks for all your great comments on here ladies!! Your thoughts are all so wise. I’ve been really up and down all day, but when I’ve felt down, I just took a quick break and re-read the comments on here again and felt better. So helpful!
I am day 8 of no contact (on my 18 day challenge). Feeling better but this morning was tough cus there was this insane feeling of “maybe he will text/email to say merry Christmas”. He didn’t (and I don’t really want him too), but there are these funny little milestones of grief where you realize, oh yes, he really is carrying on with his life as if I don’t exist and he doesnt care for me. It’s nuts cus again, it has to happen, I asked for it to happen, but it’s still a sad and hard process. I know this is for the best, but days like Christmas make it tough. I’m trying to enjoy the day with my family and feel great ful for all the amazing things and people I have in my life (and not focus just on the one person I dont). I’m gonna start a New Years resolution diary in the new year I think (a bit like Bridget jones, but hopefully not as neurotic!). I think journalling might help get me thru this as there are limited people to talk to (and almost no one who would feel sympathy for someone in this situation as I was he OW).
Anyways, thank you so much for all of your support again. It means the world to know that there are people who care and are listening and not judging. I am so grateful I found this site! Merry Christmas everyone xo
Leanne , thats a fun useful idea re the journalling , you should definitely try that …I often write down lists and it helps me a lot, I write down plans for the next few months , etc …writing always helps….and lol the reference to Bridget Jones, I just finished reading the latest in the series, ‘Mad about the boy’ …if you havent read that one yet, try it, a lot in there that makes it a good read for those of us struggling with NC and all of that right now….
Also, I understand how you feel about other ppl not sympathising with your story , I feel the same as I am NC with OM , still married , complicated life , so most ppl would say I was weak and brought this all on myself , BUT the pain is sitll real …..pain of heartbreak isnt just not being asked out to the high school prom by your crush …
Yours is even more hard as there is no real outlet for it, you thought what you both had was real and that there was a future , probably illadvised at the time but doesnt make it easier to get over because of that ….you loved him and you miss him, take your time coming out of this ……
Because I am new to this site, I still have so much unread material both Nat’s great articles and all the reader discussions, and I am literally savouring come on here and finding stuff thats like comfort food right now on here …I didnt think I could sit through movies , have been so restless, but managed to watch a few of the new ones, and it gets through the days and right now getting to your target of 18 days , and then onward to the next milestones is what you need to do, all the stuff u do to get there doesnt have to be deep = movies, books, gym, music, shopping (went to the boxing day sales yesterday and spent 5-6 hours shopping !) …keep posting and updating us !!
Sorry, I also meant to add = re about him not sending a text or email wishing for xmas and your thoughts that ‘ he has moved on etc’. I know its all about keeping it real and not having any more illusions etc – but dont make it harder on yourself than you have to. Be realistic but not negative. there is a difference between the two. Yes, if he felt about your relationship as strongly as you had, he would have left his wife and been knocking on your door, maybe months ago. But the complete other extreme isnt true either at all. My GUESS is since you loved him so much, he has some redeeming qualities and one of them could be that he has the decency to see that he has hurt you already and that he cant just send casual emails/texts without hurting further ? I havent explained well, but dont make assumptions about what he is thinking that hurt you further than you have to. Yes, he isnt with you , he has made other choices and he is trying to stick to them , thats all we know. I have found recently that men have a very practical view point to sticking on or ending a marriage – their thought process is not similar to ours, ie am i still in love with him or not.
They think (and it wasnt just my husband , the other guy too reiterated all these point asto what he would do if he were in my husbands position) – they think about the financial repercussions, years and years of joint assets, all the hassle of splitting versus just staying and working on things, kids = they are a lot more conservative and traditional about some other guy being dad to their kids even part time,even the thought of it. Sex = they are very pragmatic about this. even the most romantic of guys is still more practical than us. while we stop at ‘ it was magical, it was intense passion, blah blah’ they go a step further = she’s taken time to lose weight, shes dressing better, shes looking hotter, I like how shes wearing her hair these days, all those other guys at the party last nite were looking at her and shes actually mine. Im rambling but just making a point that male approach to sex is a lot more ….visual and earthy. The OM once told me that he can have great sex without love, and I actually believe he was speaking for all men when he said that, I do think women want to live that way sometimes but we cant.
Nat, I can’t wait to buy your new book. You are an astounding author. Due to BR, I now have freedom. I am finally becoming who I am supposed to be: Single and making that art 😉 And if there is to be romantic love, I’ll be ready.
Thank you; thank you a million times for your honest insights.
Xx
Peanut
Thanks to everyone who replied to me …very sound advice ….and much more sensitively worded than the version of it I heard from my siblings ..
I have cut contact with the other person , as he was completely muddling up my thought process….having a crush on someone (9years younger) would have been the worst and most irresponsible reason for leaving a 11 year marriage resulting in court battles over custody of my 5 year old.
Also, the OM said he wasnt interested in anything more with me , but he still was open to us ‘being friends’ …everyone around me said I should go NC with him and then try working on my marriage wholeheartedly for a period of time before reaching any kind of decisions in my mind ….also, yes my marrigae hasnt been the best to say the least, but husband showed willingness to work on things (all it took was showing interest in another man, why didnt I just do that 11 years ago ? where did being a good girl ever get me, a year of puttin myself first, got more from my husband …everything feels so mixed up these days cos of all these recent events, i mean for the first time i realised how important boundaries and retaining one’s sense of self at all times are..the man needs it to be able to respect us and be happy with us)…
thank u all again …im still in the process of figuring my life out, but I love that I found this website, and reading on here is helping me tremendously…will keep posting updates …all of us are in different situations but the underlying theme is the same, we didnt put ourselves first when we should have and we havent done anyone any favours by trying too hard to be the good girl ….and despite all the different situations, one other thing that runs through all of them is we love too strong and too soon and hence the trouble letting go moving on cos we are very heavily invested too early on ..weve moved towns, made career adjustments , changed hobbies or friend circles all for HIM …
Ive been learning so much and realising so much in just the past month …even when a guy isnt AC or EU, going NC is still a good idea if there is no equal balance in the relationship and you are the one more invested.
Not to change your mind or anything, sounds like he doesn’t want anything, and it sounds like a mess. But I don’t think the age has anything to do with it. My grandmother was with a man who was 16 years younger than her, for 40 years, until her death. And my best friend is married to a man 14 years younger than her, they’ve been together for 12 years. Just saying, I think it’s a lot more than the age.
Hi Diane, thanks for your reply.
Yeah it definitely wasnt just the age difference
1.Long distance.
I live in the UK, he lives in the US …we were on the same team in office but in two diff locations and our talks were mostly virtual, and we met for a week through office during this Spring. He seemed even more amazing in person tho.
2. I’m married !!!!!!
3. I have a kid and hence always bound to live close to my sons father if we share custody.
4. the guy got increasing contempt for the way I kept being indecisive, liking him but not leaving the marriage either or not being able to be strong abt it all.
But i still think if we had been the same age , I had been 27 instead of 36 almost …we would have found our way to each other, if it was meant to be.
The age diff made all the above insurmountable ….and we probably would have had a physical affair last summer if it hadnt been for long distance, but I’m glad in the end that didnt happen as ….toward the end, he referred to me as ‘middle aged’ would have been even more heartbreaking to move on , if we had slept together …
Also , I dont have the excuse of being financially dependant on my husband for sticking around years ago when it got really bad ..I have a pretty high flying career and make actually more than he does …I stuck around cos I didnt stop ‘being crazy about him’ for 10 whole years …I look back now and think it was just refusal , issues with letting go …’denial’ …..I never admitted that the issues were serious to myself all the while …and I focussed so much on making him happy like that was end game all the time and didnt wonder if he did become everything that I had dreamed of , then what , ie am i ready to forget the bad years and be happy. all hindsight.
sorry again, forgot to add – am getting counselling of sorts. We are in marriage counselling once a week now and I have the option to have one on one sessions with the same therapists.
It is helping ….but all this other stuff I am doing on my own, is helping just as much to be honest. I am working my way very slowly on Nats posts and sometimes I read her post multiple times and let each sentence sink in before moving on to the next. Like when I read her post on taking the focus of others and bringing back to self – I mulled , and admitted to myself that possibly the months (not years) that have been happiest in my life in these 35 years was when I had the focus on me…strangely these were probably the brief periods of time when a. Focus was on me so I wasnt looking for anything to happen romantically b. Romance came knocking on my door everytime I was this ‘not looking for anything’ woman c. The focus was on me, but it made me a very considerate, fun, easy going, laidback socially person hence my most popular times I guess ….it was OM (hate that I have labelled him this, and also that I’m quoting him while he has probably forgotten I exist long ago and hanging onto words of some 22 year old probably now, but nonetheless dang, the guy had some wise words that stayed with me) ….who told me, ‘ when you expect less in life, thats when more happens’ …
What about counselling for your child? He is learning how to treat women from his father, and learning about how relationships go from both of you. What kind of man will he become, given the current examples being demonstrated to him?
Thanks so much Rags mom for your great replies. Sorry I haven’t been as helpful in responding to your situation! I’m finding myself at a loss for words and wisdom these days (which is rare for me.. Words I mean, Ha!). But I really appreciate the time you have taken to write very insightful responses. I feel very sad for you but am happy to know I am not he only one going through this!
What you said about my MM guy and where he’s at rings really true. I do think that he has pulled back hard so as not to hurt or confuse me further, as I told him he was doing both. I feel bad about that as it put an abrupt end to things (though I know it was necessary), but it sucks because he’s just suddenly out of my life (again though I know he has to be). He kept coming back around and wanting to kiss and it was so hard to resist. But when I asked him a second (and then a third time) what he wanted and what it meant, he kept backtracking and saying he loves his wife. Early days he was complaining about her and talking about how he never thought he would feel this way about someone. I don’t know. This is the stuff that makes me feel like I did something wrong. But If that’s his answer and what he wants, then best to know it now and feel the break early than get even more attached. Hell, I don’t even know how I got myself into this ridiculous situation.
Still I am in grief and NC is so hard and I still feel stupid for getting into this. I appreciate what you said about it maybe being a practical decision on his part (maybe). His wife is from a VERY wealthy family and they are likely at the stage where she wants to have kids. So likely very hard for him to change life course even if he did really care or want to. I don’t know.
I swing between feeling like he used me, to feeling like its my fault, to feeling like he is amazing and I want to text him funny stuff that happened today, to feeling embarrassed and never wanting to talk to him again. Sometimes I want to contact his wife and tell her what happened (yes that crazy thought has crossed my mind!). not so that he’ll leave but so that she can know what an ass he is and they don’t just go in their merry way. But then I realize I’ve hurt her enough (even though she doesn’t know it) and that that kind of stuff is crazy!
I don’t want to sound sad and sorry for myself for not breaking up a marriage. She actually just didn’t seem real. I never saw her, he rarely talked about her. When he did it was usually to say something about how She was different than him. But he never said he loved me, just that he had very strong feelings for me and didn’t know what to do. Anyways, I don’t know how I went so far down this rabbit hole of feelings. maybe I fell in love too quickly, as you say it happens with women a lot. I don’t know.
Anyways, it was a pretty good day. I missed him a lot and spent a bit of time this evening drafting an email that I might send him at the end of the 18 days, basically asking him not to come by my office as we should stay no contact. I don’t know if I should send it or let sleeping dogs lie. Thoughts?
OMG, what you said about constantly wanting to text funny stuff that happened to him …I feel sad everytime I realise I cant tell OM about funny stuff and see his amused reactions , sigh…
Hope you get a lot of advice and replies to more saner ppl than me on this site , but I’m looking out for you when I say I do hope you dont send him the email at day 18 if you really intend to stay NC …cos once you have sent that email, it will be back to Day 1 again or worse, you will be checking for replies, analysing his reply , if hes asking questions, you’ll be back and forth again and have to restart NC at some point weeks after.
I dont know your full story, how long you were involved with MM….and does he work in the same office ….but based on your last post, looks like u went NC after he pretty much made it clear he had no concrete plans of leaving his wife and he wasnt averse to something on the side with you. Unless that changes , I am guessing you dont want to be pulled back into the whirlpool of pain again.
A few insights that I can give you from the other side of the spectrum as a married woman who wanted to be with someone else (even if it was only something short term that OM was interested in at one point – before he took even that off the table since I kept dithering) ….I did actually ask my husband for divorce serveral times in a 12 -15 month period, many times I specifically openly told him i felt really strongly for this other man and I didnt feel morally justified still being in the marriage …I said I knew I had to travel back to our home country to agree on custody so I didnt plan to pursue anything with OM but that I wanted to be free to not feel constantly guilty about being the attraction I felt and couldnt kill ….but husband actually broke down and cried and said he loved me and wouldnt let me go…he made changes, all the changes he was capable of …Leanne, he completely changed when compared to 10 years ago…constantly made himself available to talk anytime during work, texts calls, coming over during the day…. sad that he made all these changes only after i ‘fell in love’ with someone else …i was so into OM , sadly, i still would have left the husband if it hadnt been for our son at that point in time …my advice would be stay NC so your conscience is clear that you are not actively stealing another woman’s man …only time can tell if in months or even a couple of years from now, he comes to you as a seperated or divorced man and wants something real with you …and its upto you then, cos I cant tell from what you have posted whether he is an AC or not , only you can know that and NC also clarifies thinking a lot ….in just these past few weeks, NC and reading all these posts here has clarified a lot in my mind but I still have a long way to go. NC for even a few months may help you know yourself better if nothing else and hopefully once you have reached that 3 month or 6 month target you will have a much more objective view of the situation ( its hard to resist when you are living it in the moment, I know how it feels , absolutely)….
Also, sorry I wanted to avoid saying this in earlier post, but given the spirit of this whole website, NAT’s writings and all the other reader insights on here …if he is wanting to kiss you, and says he loves her,all in the same meeting / day …does sound like hes a bit of an AC (i really find it very hard to say this about someone I dont know, only you must be the judge of him) .. I can understand if he desperately wants to kiss you and goes home and asks for a divorce and she cries all night and he comes in next morning and tells you he cant go through with the divorce …i can understand this type of up and down (not excusing it, but this is what i went through for 12 months, and i admit i was being an assclown myself actually for it, but i ended up crying almost everyday)….
NC is a good plan Leanne and well done for finally getting there. While you are on early days of NC, please contemplate this = getting him is not endgame, visualise being married to him years down the line, can you trust him not to be in love with u and kissing someone else ? not trying to be trite here, but the recent Cameron Diaz movie ‘the other woman’ may have a few relevant messages that are worth watching for if you get to see this movie ..I saw it just last week ….
Hi Crystal, thanks – these are the kind of hard questions that I need right now.
I asked for divorce multiple times last year , the first few times I asked for divorce , was before I met the other guy, altho later my husband chose to think it was all about ‘the other guy’.
Anyway, he always said he would fight bitterly over custody, that was primarily my reason to stay at that point. He was bullying me into staying at times, but I couldnt hate him for it, cos I knew he was scared , terrified of losing his son, he cant even bear the thought of partial custody and some other man possibly being some kind of step dad. I could actually face the possibility of giving my son to him on weekends but it was he who didnt want the family to split.
The incidents of him slapping me around were 2004-2008 (about 4 or 5 times in total)….I should have left then , I know that now. Just like I know he would have left last year if it hadnt been for our son. Yeah, its all a mess, and I certainly wasnt an innocent victim.
But having said all that, we are both in it for our son ,even now. a few people have asked me this same question, ie why keep my son in the toxic environment, but what I dont get is, am i morally entitled to seperate his dad completely from him over those domestic abuse incidents ? Am i legally entitled to ? would it really be in my sons interests or would my son resent me for seperating his dad from him completely ?
As I understand it, my husband would get partial custody ,yes ? and then it would be 3 days now and then when I would completely not be my sons side …my husband wants to go back to his home city if there is a divorce, (in fact, home country, which is not where we reside, ie the UK) and he believes since we got married there originally, the D would be decided in courts there. I dont know how we can even share custody from two different countries , and my son may lose out on growing up in this country which is a much better place for him to grow up than home country. Its just not that simple or cut and dried altho I badly wanted it to be for a whole 18 months …I’m putting my son first now, as everyone told me divorce would be traumatic on him.
Sometimes I feel like, no matter what I do , the future may say it was the wrong decision …when I contemplated D, everyone said it would be traumatic for my son and I should stay and work on marriage , ….now that I have done that , ive had ppl ask was it the right thing for my son ….
Also my husband planned to live near his family, if we D and i assume my son will be spending a lot of time there if partial custody plays out, and I fear toxic influences for my son there (wont go into details, but one of the main reasons I became depressed early on in the marriage was husbands family and their constant put downs) ….
If you can spot something Ive missed in my connundrum, let me know please ….he seems like an okay dad to his son, I doubt that the love for his child is genuine.
I’m not happy , I constantly miss the other guy, tho it was not a full blown affair, I think it was something real, tho I know even if I had left the marriage for a shot at something with him , he wasnt interested in anything long term with me cos of the 9 year age differnce.
But at least I havent had an actual affair with anyone in 12 years, so I cant be that bad …it was one attraction, one guy and it stayed at friendship (altho I was weak enuf that I wouldnt have resisted had he wanted more a few months during the spring) …..
Sorry I forgot to add, that my husband has also said multiple times that he will use all the emails that I sent and received from that other guy in a custody battle, it evidences that tho it wasnt a full blown affair , I wasnt above flirting…
wow , the more I think about it, the less self respect I have ….
sorry again, I meant to say, I dont doubt that his love for his son is geniune …
Thanks again for your responses Rags mom. Definitely stuff to think about and so true that NC brings clarity. I will carry on and yes, I hope that one day things could potentially be different for us down the road, but even more than that, I hope to get well, move on and grow.
As to your situation, have you spoken to a divorce/family lawyer in your jurisdiction? Even just an initial consult might help clarify your rights and his with respect to your son if you were to separate and help you have a better sense of what that might look like. I know in my country (Canada) divorce is ‘no fault’ in most jurisdictions, meaning that the courts don’t punish either of you for who or what happened during the marriage and breakdown. (Other than abuse). Child custody and alimony/support is based on the best interests of the child and support guidelines. So if it is similar in the uk, then I wouldn’t worry too much about texts and emails etc being used against you. But there are many hard realities that you would face it sounds like with a divorce. I can’t imagine it’s easy for anyone, but with children.. So tough!!
It’s interwsting to hear your analysis of your situation with the other guy. He sounds great and like the type of person you could be with if you were to be on your own. Perhaps it would be worth giving your current relationship a timeline o improve (ie. 6 months) and really working on things before making a decision about your feelings at that point? This is probably something a counselor could help you with.
I feel for you and your story is so similar to mine. Please let me know how it’s going and I’ll do the same. It’s day 11 of no contact for me. I have to go into the office for a day tomorrow, so going to just stay mum there and hope not to see him. If I do, I’ll just be courteous and professional but that’s it.
I’ve made a plan for more stuff to come in january and had the idea of doing something that I read on a cool blog a few years ago. A woman who had been through a tough break up and was fighting off depression did an “adventure bowl” in which she put little adventures/challenges she could do in her home city (LA) and then would pull one out each week and do it. I might also try doing that for 2015 as it sounds really fun and would help keep me focused on something else as I move forward. I will keep you posted about what ensues! Cheers.
Hi Leanne, thanks for your advice. I think I got the timeline mixed up though in my responses to Crystal and her valid concerns about impact on my son from staying in a marriage which had a history of domestic violence ( a few isolated incidents years ago, but once is one time too many with these things I know) ….I have had people tell me its in my sons best interests if I leave and I have had people vehemently tell me its selfish of me if I dont stay for my sons sake.
I guess only I can know what the home situation is from the inside and whats best for my son. I HAD to go NC with the other guy to allow myself to think clearly -I’ll admit I felt an overwhleming attraction (sometimes to casual flirting from him , a few times it was ‘friendship’ tagged stuff like when he said ‘ I love you too’, to me…all crazy making in the end) …..so coming on here was mainly for support to stop feeling sad about letting go of OM completely from my life (a part of me still thinks, what if i call him 8 years from now, what about 10 years, what about 20, how can it harm then etc, sigh) …..
Anyway, re my marriage – I think I will stay. as long as the current status quo stays. Husband and I are never going to be best friends, we are never going to be extremely intense lovers, its not what I had or thought I had for a few months with OM in many ways, there isnt even much shared laughter ….but Im mommy and hes daddy ….we are home and family to a 5 year old whom we both adore and think of as ‘the best thing that ever happened to me’ …he goes to work, contributes financially and at home …we give each other space and its not like we cant stand each others company, far from it ….I know hes capable of goodness …I know this may not be the right answer, but its the one that feels right to me, to stay ….I had a million chances to leave in the past 18 months when I had OM as my ‘best friend’ and a shot at something at least short term with him while he was in between gf’s ….i didnt seize the moment…I have gone NC with OM and I am sad but still alive , (I was smiling this morning at utube vids of Ellen Degeneres dancing on her show) …if the alternative had happened, and I had my something short term with OM before he moved onto someone his age …and I had 3 days every week without my son, I think it would have been 1000 times harder than this ….at least thats how I feel right now.
Also, before I end this very long reply (hoping reading all this keeps you ignoring smug/sweet MM at office today lol) …just something that may be relevant to you = working in the same office creates a lot of illusions about the whole romance. As long as I was in the same office with OM, we talked everyday. An hour a day even (when you add up the minutes across a 4 hour period) …it gave a false ‘future faking’ illusion to me that he loved / needed to talk to me everyday just like I did ….I waited for the time he came in everyday, hung on his voice during team meetings, etc etc …I thought he felt a little bit of the same especially when he said things like ‘ we have this need for each other’ …’I’m upset you are leaving, lets talk everyday on gchat’ etc …but reality set in after I left …the truth is he can easily , EASILY go days, weeks , even months without initiating a conversation with me now that its not ‘convenient’ to do so, ie im not a colleague anymore, I have no doubts that he can easily live with never talking to me again at this point. Good, thats one less thing to worry about. I only have my own heartbreak to feel bad about.
Warning: If being shallow and focusing on looks offends you, please look away, because I know how this sounds…. I broke up with the EUM 3 years ago but was basically still in love with him, even thru long periods of NC, but I just wasn’t meeting anyone. Tho I tried very hard. Anyway, finally, I’ve met a guy I like a lot. We emailed for 2 weeks before going out and usually after some emails with a guy I start to lose interest, but with him, my interest was increasing. I really respect the things he cares about and is interested in, and he seems to feel the same about me. Anyway, we finally met up, and I knew he was “chubby” (his words) but when I met him, he was even bigger than I expected. I couldn’t tell the body so much because he’s tall and was wearing loose clothing, but his face is, well, there’s no other way to put it, fat. He’s even got a double chin. Kind of sad considering he’s only 35. For me it’s an issue because I work very hard to stay in shape and so have most of the men I’ve been with. The EUM, damn him, was my absolute ideal physically — I could look at him for hours naked. I swear that’s why I stayed w him for so long, despite not liking his insides very much. Well, this other guy did ask me out again, and I agreed, and I still like him, I’m just not sure I can get over this. Yes, I know people can get into shape, and he’s made noises that he wants to do this (claims to be intimidated by my working out schedule) but I’ve definitely come to realize thanks to Nat and other books, blogs, that you can’t go into a relationship hoping someone will change — either mentally OR physically. In fact, there’s a real possibility he might get even fatter. And yet of course I feel very shallow by thinking of all this, but it’s not like he doesn’t like me for my looks too. He’s mentioned them several times. So… he’s judging me as well, only judging me positively. He would be the biggest guy I’ve ever been with — health and fitness is very important to me. Sigh. Anyone have experience with this?
Diane, it isnt shallow – you shouldnt force yourself to date someone whom you dont feel physical attraction too. In fact,the fact that you have flagged this early on is good – cos guy/s expect sex at some point in the dating cycle and backing off at the last minute would have been hurtful to him. But now that you know how you feel, be honest with him – say u dont feel any attraction and dont want to waste his time ?
If you really like him, maybe friendzone him (I dont mean in the way EU guys do – since you dont feel any attraction, you wouldnt be flirting, sending mixed messages or leading him on)…and then if he does clean up his act sometime in the future, and gets as much into fitness as you, and you do feel attraction, if he is available and interested at that point , then maybe take it forward ?
I just read what I wrote and wonder if this is what ex EUs have done to us ….kept us friends , waiting to see if we clean up our act and explore other options meanwhile …its a fine line I guess.
Dont continue dating if you dont feel physical attraction.
Diane, I too work out to maintain my shape and weight. I am not a fitness crazy person, but I do think I look fairly fit. I would have the same issues as you. A bit overweight could be maybe ok. But fat – no. You are not shallow. These are your values, remember, Nat tells us that we have to live by our values. Fitness, health, and sport are your values. Stand by them. I feel you are lonely and want to have a partner. I completely understand. I am starting feeling this way too some days (1 year of no dating).
I can relate to your physical desire for your ex. My ex’s body was amazing. It was a drug. I think so too I stayed that long because I was addicted to him. I knew that his personality was not that great. Do you think we would stay with our exes and miss them afterwards if they were fat? I doubt it… Sad, but not shallow. Fitness is important in my book. One doesn’t have to be an athlete or a marathon runner. But average fitness and normal weight are important. Health wise as well. So you are not alone.
Thanks everyone, I appreciate your responses. I’ve accepted one more date but I won’t let it go much past that if attraction doesn’t build. Oddly, he just wrote today and said he signed up for his office’s “Biggest Loser” contest. So who knows maybe he’ll shed weight rapidly in three months! but one thing I will NOT do is lead him on, I’m incapable of that anyway, and he deserves someone who is attracted to him. But I’m still hoping attraction will build despite his looks because I am so attracted to who he is as a person (so far anyway). But it’s taken me SO long to meet someone I am interested in (3 years!!) that this is like some kind of cruel joke. Thanks, God!! 😉
But I’m still hoping attraction will build despite his looks because I am so attracted to who he is as a person (so far anyway). But it’s taken me SO long to meet someone I am interested in (3 years!!) that this is like some kind of cruel joke. Thanks, God!!
Just don’t rush, and give it TIME.
It’s great that he chose to do that of his own initiative, and now he can manage that HIMSELF, independently of you. I think this is a really good sign.
It’s also great that you can see beyond his weight to the man inside, who may be really cool, fun, respectful and worth loving.
That may be EXACTLY why this has happened now – you may well have been too shallow in the past to find him attractive, so it’s a nice little reminder that there has been some personal growth on your part as well.
In a sense, you are the one who has ‘put on weight’, but it’s the best kind of weight – you have greater depth to your character.
Diane,
The one thing I learned when it comes to love is that you can help a person lose weight and dress better, but what you can’t do is make them be a good person or help them have integrity. These are things they just have and at the end of day remember this when you make a decision as to whether you want a relationship.
The fact that you are fit is actually good because you can probably help him get into shape. Think about it sometimes we meet people to learn something or to teach something and this maybe your moment. Good Luck!
Diane, it looks like you are really interested in him. I see from this post and the post before that he would like to lose weight. That’s a good start. I see what you mean about trying not to lead on the person. I would say stick to developing a friendship right now and see how it goes. Maybe you will end up in the gym together several times a week as fitness friends and the results will show! People do change because they want to change themselves. Not when we want to change them. Seems like this guy is into it without your influence or pressure. Good luck and Happy New Year!
Don’t be a Florence, that’s the main thing, or else you’ll just get him looking hot for the next woman …
If you are sufficiently friendly, you could have an honest conversation with him, and say that his weight is an issue for you simply because you’ve never dated anyone as heavy as him.
You could even say, if you felt you could, that you don’t want to be the ‘fixer upper’ of him, and that THIS is an issue for you – that you are wondering if he wants you to ‘fix him’. Listen to what he says in response; it’s important.
Ask for more time to get to know him, and to take things slowly. You will find that either you get over his weight issue because you fall in love with the man inside, or that he will take some action about it himself of his own free will, or you guys won’t hit it off any more and will drift apart naturally.
Thanks all. He seems quite determined and has emailed me several times (of his own volition, I have never once mentioned his weight) about is plans for the South Beach Diet, starting running again, etc. He says he put on a lot of weight recently for various reasons. But there is NO way I am getting involved in being his fixer-upper diet mentor. I will also just SEE what he does. I have been working out a long time, and people can SAY a lot of things, but at the end of the day, you need to get your ass to the gym and then you need to restructure your diet in a permanent, consistent way. I don’t know if he’s like that. He could shed the pounds for the contest and then next year balloon up even worse. Since we’ve only had one date I didn’t think it was the right time to bring up his weight. We’ll see how date #2 goes. We are having dinner at a healthy restaurant rather than going to a bar (where I watched him down FOUR pints on the first date — so hello weight problem, and possible drinking problem!)
“Don’t be a Florence, that’s the main thing, or else you’ll just get him looking hot for the next woman …”
Haha. That would be my luck.
The topic in this post is about owning our ability to make decisions, including the decision to make a different choice than previously in a certain situation. Self-love is the goal for many of us here. However, self-love can’t happen without self-acceptance. Self-acceptance can’t happen without self-awareness and self-awareness can’t happen if we’re in denial that we CAN and HAVE made selfish and unthinking choices. I may not have knowingly been involved with an attached man but I have hurt others many times through selfish, self-absorbed choices. Does this mean that I always make poor choices? No way! But it does mean that I must own the reality that I’m capable of acting selfishly and that’s normal. Everybody else is capable of that too. This self-awareness is what helps me to stay awake in situations that can put me in spiritual and emotional danger.
I don’t know if I’m making any sense. I guess what I’m trying to say is that genuine self-confidence is built upon genuine humility. It’s OK to say, “Yes, I acted selfishly and hurt people because of what I did.” What’s not ok is to think that this is all there is to you. I think once we remove the label from ourselves as “good person” or “bad person”, we can see ourselves more clearly and our decisions will reflect this and, thus, our decisions will become more soulful instead of soul-depleting regarding ourselves and, yes, others.
Oh, I’m rambling but I hope I’ve made some sense to somebody…it’s time for sleep in my part of the world so I’m choosing to go to bed.
Totally agree, Rosie – recognising our mistakes and forgiving ourselves and others too is a big part of moving on to making better choices.
Rosie, you make a perfect sense. In the spiritual context this is interpreted as letting go off your pride. Not to become a doormat but actually love yourself and others without the screaming ego ruining your self-awareness and decisions you make. I understand your point.
Also, with respect to my MM, I can’t figure out if he’s an AC or just EU. As someone pointed out in an earlier response, I’m probably EU myself (gonna work on that), so maybe that makes it difficult for me to tell. But with this guy, I don’t know. I don’t think he had intentions to hurt me, but he was definitely rude when things fell apart and selfish during the whole affair. He was almost Sort of smug about it when he broke things off, but that could be the stress of the situation. He does have a really sweet side and is generally a really nice guy. Who knows? Maybe I misjudged him. There were one or two small red flags in things he said that looking back I ignored (besides the obvious fact that he was cheating!). He said a couple things about women that gave me the impression that he is used to being chased and that he enjoys that. What an ego! I have heard people say that there’s no such thing as an honest cheat. But I really can’t figure It all out. And in particular, why I still care :(. I can’t wait to stop running through the same questions and generally stop thinking about him. Whatever. I am done thinking about hjm for today. Thanks for your patience in listening. I think I just start to ruminate at night when I get tired and also I’m nervous about seeing him tomorrow (should I run into him). I don’t know how to be. As I said before, just gonna be calm and professional and get the hell away from him as soon as I can, should he come by or I run into him. He doesn’t know I’ll be in tomorrow so hopefully that helps. Going to be working on that finding another job business hard. So sad. We used to be like Jim & Pam from the office. Now I pretty much wish we had never met.
Leanne, my two cents: imagine a point in the future where this whole thing is behind you and you have made all the right decisions along the way. You don’t have to make the decisions yet, just imagine how you would fell when it has all turned all right for you. Now, think about your current situation and notice what’s different. Ask yourself: “What is the next smallest step that will take me in the direction of how I want to feel when I’m done?”. Take the step. Do this exercise whenever the thoughts about the AC return. Happy New Year!
Yup figuring out whether a guy is AC can be hard , esp one we like so much – only you can know. Pay attention to what your inner voice is saying tho – in just the one post , you have said that this generally nice/sweet guy was in specific incidents = rude, selfish, and smug (during break up !!).
OM was rude with me a few times as well, especially the closer we got to NC ….. we try to tell ourselves guys cant deal with things ending, and the rudeness is just a front. maybe. all the dating gurus say guys say exactly what they mean to.
It is going to be very very hard for you to stick to NC since he works with you and he probably is going to try to stay ‘friends’ if not wanting casual intimacy as well everytime hes feeling like he needs attention ….
Not rushing to recommend u change jobs tho, I did that (OM worked in same office altho I had other reasons for leaving as well) …..and its very hard to be in a new workplace and adapt to change when ones personal life is already so scary ..its making it harder in some ways …long run tho its probably the only way for a complete break, forgetting and moving on ..
While you are still there for now, it will be tough. You will be fighting feelings like excitement when he approaches, and disappointment when he doesnt, and self flagellation for feeling all of this. just to get to day 18 for now = have Nat’s blog open on your laptop/desktop or some print outs in your bag that you go for a walk and read multiple times a day = posts like the one about ambiguous relationships and what it can do to you.
I’m not being overly dramatic, it will be that hard doing NC and seeing him strolling abt everyday – also if he starts chatting up someone else and the things it will do to your mind ….be prepared for all this and have your strategy war. You need to look out for yourself, he is the one who has the power to break your heart/ who already has in fact.
I know you’re probably not going to be ready for a while – but maybe dating soon may not be a bad idea for you. You definitely need other things to start focussing on big time. I cried almost everyday at my new job during lunch for weeks but its getting better now. I’m slowly starting to feel enthusiastic about other milestones, goals, plans again altho it comes and goes. Good luck for today !
Leanne,
You said “There were one or two small red flags in things he said that looking back I ignored (besides the obvious fact that he was cheating!).”
You seem to add the cheating part as a side note and focus on the ‘small red flags’ you ignored. You are minimizing. He may be AC, but he is certainly EU because he is married. He said he loves his wife and you are still ruminating on whether he is EUM, maybe you misjudged him, etc. The denial here is leaping off of the page. He is married, he is not leaving his wife. Those are not red flags, those are stop, do not trespass, keep out signs that were present from day one. You are already trying to figure out the best way to break NC after 18 days, which is not NC, it’s dragging it out. You don’t seem ready to let it go or truly see the reality of the situation. He is not a good guy, he isn’t. Nothing you did would of made a difference with him because he is married and claims to love his wife, yet he’s cheating on and lying to her. I fear you will get sucked in again as you don’t seem ready to let go, you are still looking for loopholes and asking why why why about his behavior. Ask why to your behavior….why would you think a married man is all you deserve? Don’t you want a man to yourself who can be there for you from day one….not toss crumbs at you when his wife is busy, or call you when he is bored, or use you to make himself feel better when married life makes him feel less alive. Grow some self respect and expect more for yourself than a cheating married man and feeling sad you weren’t picked by someone who was already taken? It’s hard to do when you still have feelings, but the alternative is being on call for his ego.
Leanne, everyone other than Hitler has good points, so your AC does too. But this guy is married. He could be your soulmate [no!]. Except for the fact that he has another soulmate too, his wife. So it doesnt matter how great he is, you dont have to sit around and wonder – he’s off limits. If you conclude he’s awesome – so what? He’s not available. I often meet guys that are married/taken and are wonderful – and these guys are really the good ones, nice, funny, mature adults that aren’t hitting on other women as far as I can tell… and I think when I’m around them, how nice it is that there are good guys out there. And I enjoy hanging out with them and their girlfriends/wives – with guys like that there are no strange vibes, they can be your buddies and you can have the good parts of being around guys and none of the bad stuff, they’re good people.
Is he an AC? Most definitely yes – people cheating on their spouse, at work, pursuing the OW while insisting they still love their wives etc etc = AC through and through. Is he an AC for life? Who knows. But he’s an AC now, and he’s an AC to you and to his wife. He’s NOT a really nice guy, nice guys dont cheat on their wives with their co-workers. By definition. He does NOT do sweet enough things because he is currently doing this one really awful thing which makes everything else suspect.
Its like AA – you have to be able to say to yourself ‘I was with an MM, I made a decision that was not good for me, didn’t take care of my feelings, put myself down’. As long as you see him as really sweet, and you as Jim and Pam or tell yourself he was not that great to you etc., you’re still pretending you had a real relationship. You didn’t. What is the level of behavior one expects from an MM? [none. By definition that is a relationship without expectations]. You complaining about his smugness is not the same as if you were in a real relationship – nothing he says is true, nothing at all, because the entire relationship is fundamentally a lie, there is no there.
Till you put that focus on yourself, you’ll still replay the drama of this guy, and potentially find yourself in more sticky situations. You dont have to see yourself as a bad person to see that you managed to get swept up into a bad situation; you might have decided that only ‘bad people’ do what you did, and your cognitive dissonance prevents you from seeing yourself as bad, and hence you’re still thinking about him because to think of your own part in this is painful. Ergo you won’t be able to take responsibility. Without responsibility, there is not going to be a learning or growth from this experience. NC. No letters, no explanations, get ready for it to get uncomfortable and you’ll have to ride it out as you’re an adult and a strong person, and no conversations about it, he is no longer important to you, cut him out, its over, done, fini, ended.
Reading this is making me realise what a total idiot I have been over the years. I got to know a MM at work about 10 years ago, purely on a professional basis. I took over a team of his and people starting noticing that he was paying me attention. He started emailing, walking out with me at lunch time and generally flirting with me. I loved the attention, he flattered me. We spent minimal time together ,just texting which went further than it should. We had physical contact a couple of times but the guilt afterwards made us both stop at the time. I knew I wasn’t the only woman he was flirting/contacting at this time. I also knew that I couldn’t wait to hear from him & that I developed feelings for him. He turned nasty on several occasions and so I stopped all contact,it was better for all concerned as it was wrong in all ways. We acknowledged each other in meetings but his office was nowhere near my place of work- I am married and lucky that I still am. we have gone to counselling together and this has helped us both move forward. Back to the present time- 18 months ago this MM tried to commit suicide several times-he survived several attempts. I felt for him so much. no contact was allowed but knew I couldn’t do anything as I didn’t want to exacerbate the situation. he is no longer in work and has now been pensioned off. he has contacted me and says he wants to meet me and take things forward. He is still married to his original wife and she has stood by him.I have said no to nothing starting up again as he needs to continue his treatment and get better & I fully intend on staying committed to my marriage. However the only thing is – if I say no will he try to commit suicide again- I wouldn’t want this for him or his family. I try and believe that if you want to commit suicide then nothing will stop you and its their decision. I regret so much of what we did but I was infactuated with the attention he gave- it wasn’t real.
Katec: please know that a person that attempts suicide is not necessarily therefore a ‘good’ person that ‘needs’ you or deserves you. Attempted suicide does not cleanse past sins. AND there are a number of people out there that use threats of suicide to keep others in line. If this guy was your friend, I would say please help your friend, be there for them. This guy is not your friend, he’s an ex-AC/MM AND you are married – he has a wife, i assume he has siblings, a therapist, a doctor, a pastor, and god knows who else to help him. Stay away from him. Its the best you can do for yourself, and probably for him too.
If he tries to commit suicide again – trust me, you’re not that important in the grand scheme of his problems. Anyone that harms themselves because some married woman they had a fling with… did what exactly? Even that you think this about him [that you are somehow consequential in his craziness], means you need to really get some help so you’re not dragged into a very unstable person’s drama.
Even if he were to say you’re the one to blame — so what? does that make it true? Are you going to become his caretaker? Are you going to sleep with him to ‘save’ him? Can you hear how crazy that sounds? He’s hooking the part of you that wants to be important, indispensable, necessary for the very life and death of another person – thats crazy stuff, totally unhealthy. Please stay away.
However the only thing is – if I say no will he try to commit suicide again
Wrong thinking on your part.
if you want to commit suicide then nothing will stop you and its their decision.
Right thinking on your part.
When men attempt suicide, they usually succeed. So that makes me think that this guy is doing it simply to get attention, because he lives in a fantasy world. This is also what drove his ‘affair’ with you.
He can’t cope with reality any more, and he is trying to drag as many innocent victims into his black hole as he can.
Go NC and stick with it like glue, and in fact get as far away from this manipulative vampire as you can. Do NOT go there. At all.
If he eventually kills himself, accidentally or on purpose, IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT. IT IS HIS FAULT AND HIS DECISION. Suicide is the single most individual decision a person makes. It is solely and utterly their choice. You must realise this, and accept it and internalise it.
Katec- An ex – bf years ago tried to commit suicide three times because I broke up with him. My mother threatened to commit suicide years ago & blamed me for it.
It’s not your fault, katec. You are not responsible for his choices. You’re not that powerful. If he’s suicidal, he needs a psychiatrist, not an OW. You are free to continue working on your marriage. You made a poor choice & owned it. You don’t owe him anything.
@Leanne, sorry for the typo/s – I meant to say plan your strategy on a war footing – dont underestimate how hard sticking to NC in the same office is going to be.
Also, these words really stayed in my mind and might be relevant to your early NC days too = on Nat’s post about ambiguous /whatchamightcallit relations , Ethelreda had said this to someone in her comments = Process your grief during NC, dont try to stay friends with him, if you do, then you will end up processing your grief with him, and therein lies madness.
You may end up blurting out to him how had you are finding NC, how much you miss him. A lot of us do this and I think we secretly hope that being honest will allow us to show him how much we care, and hope he says the same things. But after you have said all this , you will feel horribly vulnerable. The only thing that can validate your feelings from his side is his replying ‘ I’m going home today and moving out, I cant be without you even one more day’ …what are the chances at this point of him saying that in response to you breaking NC ? Dont bare your heart, thoughts and emotions to him anymore. Protect yourself. Listen to him if he sends emails , texts baring his soul and that might help answer questions in your mind, but you dont owe him a response other than the most casual minimal polite ones. Let us know how today and the rest of this week back at work after the holidays goes ?
Take it from me, I finally got lonely and desperate enough that I met up with the EUM who was bugging me to meet for a drink, and we ended up making out and saying things to each other like, “I still love you,” “I still love you too!” etc. He told me if he could do it all over differently, he would. A week later, he pretended none of it actually happened and said, “All I remember is us arguing.” We never had an argument! It was INSANITY. Luckily, I was three years out of the relationship and had done a huge amount of work on myself in that time (not enough obviously) but at this point I knew this insane gaslighting was his issue, not mine. I said, “Oh okay, thanks for letting me know that was all a figment of my imagination” and then ignored several emails after that and have gone NC (again). Trust me, these guys CAN say all the dream things you want them to say — but they haven’t changed one iota. It’s incredible! Don’t even bother dreaming about him “coming to his senses” because he might, but then, the next day, his senses have mysteriously left the building again. Haha!
Diane, wow! I think the recent ex might have said the same thing had we met after a year. Maybe not “I love you,” but “We argued a lot!” WE NEVER DID!!! Mostly because I was a people pleaser and compromised until the end having no boundaries or self-respect. Luckily I will never meet up with him. Good that you are 3 years out of it and this meeting didn’t affect you too much I hope. Your story shows they do not change. I often think that because I have changed so much throughout this year, he must have changed too. No they don’t. Unless something really important to THEM happens. We were not important in their book.
Also, isn’t it just teenagery and immature, to say those things “still love you” etc and then act like it never happened and then chase again? How old is that guy? 21? I doubt it…
Hahah, no, it would make too much sense if he were 21. He turns 40 this year. But is very emotionally stunted obviously. If what happened made you feel uncomfortable, just say so. Or even say “I don’t wish to discuss that, it was a mistake” or whatever. But to say it never happened? So when I said, “Oh you don’t remember making out?” He claimed we had “different interpretations” of things. LOL! Too much insanity. To the point of being mentally ill, possibly. I have ignored him since then.
I second that. Almost a year after we “officially” broke up. And he would call and demand to talk and say how he’s working on himself and cry because he is in “pain” and then less than two weeks after – back to his gf, telling me how selfish I am to expect anything from him when HE is in so much pain. I was expecting a reply to an email in fact. How totally selfish of me ha! I think Nat has written about this dynamic too: these EUM/AC say whatever feels like the right thing to say in the MOMENT. But then another moment comes and they may say the total opposite. It’s irrelevant WHY they do it. What’s important is that you cannot build a relationship (even friendship, let alone an intimate loving relationship) with a person whose opinion keeps changing and who does not honor their own words. Honor and courage used to be the main measure of a Man. Let’s not forget this, ladies.
Here’s to a new year for us, the courageous ones to say NO to bs and courageous enough to stand up for our own values even though we’re only learning to do it and are not perfect. Here’s to 2015 and meeting honorable men!
“I think Nat has written about this dynamic too: these EUM/AC say whatever feels like the right thing to say in the MOMENT.”
Oh yep. That’s exactly what it is. We used to have these discussions and he would sound so plaintive and sincere and repentent, and days later, he would say “I never said.” I should have just left but I kept thinking either I was misinterpreting things, or he had memory problems. I really did think he had memory problems!
yeah ….
@leanne, AND maybe only Nat can give an expert view on your query whether you are EU yourself ….I dont think you are tho. yes, you got involved with a married man …but you it wasnt casual for you and you didnt move on to the next man, or next MM, it wasnt a lifestyle choice that was meeting your needs as an EU woman would have at least partially thrived on this rather than getting all messed up.
You are on here crying over him and questioning your sanity for getting involved with him …I dont think you are EU, he has managed to get you thinking you are tho by managing your expectations down.
Thank you rags mom.. very very helpful!
Thanks Suki, that is very helpful. Yes, NCis the only way to go. Re-reading my posts (as I re-read all of this chain daily right now), I can’t believe what a whiner I sound like! What a ridiculous situation & and I agree that I need to take more responsibility for my part in things. The longer I go NC, the more I can see my role in this and how bad it was instead of pining away for him like some moonstruck teenager. It really helps to see and hear that he is an AC. I feel like I get stuck on thinking that he’s great (but a bit of a jerk) and I was a fool to let myself think he liked me more than he did. Who cares?? You are so right about that and to everyone who has been encouraging and posting responses to me the last couple days.. thank you so much!! These words are really what is helping keep me strong as I break out of these feelings and away from him and this situation.
I am in the office today but haven’t seen him at all (good!) Did a little searching online re: new jobs. Made a plan to hit a yoga class, see some friends tomorrow, go shopping for new lipstick on a break, and planning a bit of a fantasy trip (that I may never be able to take but it’s fun to plan). I am also going to carve out some time this afternoon to think through my role in this and what made me think it was okay to get into this in the first place. Going to counseling next week, so hopefully that helps a bit too.
I appreciate all of your advice and I hope I don’t sound like too much of a selfish whiner here. This has really been a tough experience that has forced me to look at myself and how I am operating in the world (espcially with respect to men and boundaries).
Thanks again. Made it through 12 days of NC now. Once I make it to 18, I’m gonna buy myself a new pair of shoes and challenge myself to the end of January (which will be 45 days). Thank you all for the support!!
Leanne, I’m glad to read your post. You sound very rational and put together about this. I would suggest think of your responses and write them down, so you cement your resolve. ‘If he writes to me asking for coffee, I will not reply. If he calls me and I pick up by mistake, I will be polite but not agree to anything beyond work. If he corners me, I will be polite and say I’m sorry this is not appropriate and walk away. Etc etc. 45 days is not challenge at all once you decide that there is nothing there, there was never anything there – the moment i accepted that the EUM i was vaguely involved with was an AC, was being a jerk, and that there is no there there, there should be no contact, I no longer see myself as doing some terrible task or chore of NC. I’m just no longer in it – I can pick up a phone call, I can see him with others, but I am not invested in him, I will not see him alone, I will not have intimate conversations. I know that. I am not interested anymore. You need to get to that point.
And I like that you see yourself as potentially ‘whining’ only because that word is so undramatic, so taking yourself humorously and thats what you need – to be kind to yourself while seeing the silliness of what you are doing so you can accept yourself, flaws and all. Please know that we’re all on here because we have made mistakes too, not stood up for ourselves, not made the best choices for ourselves, and its not making you a bad person. its so easy to get swept up in someone else’s drama, in someone else’s lapse from appropriate behavior especially when you’re single [so its not like you’re breaking marriage vows]. You deserve good things, and someone that likes you for you, and not because they need the thrill of self-destructiveness [because that man is on the path to self-destruction, too weak to leave his wife, too weak to look for love himself, too weak to work on his marriage, and he’s messing about with his career too. He is not a good person even if he were single tomorrow because he has a lot of work to do.].
Time and perspective and No Contact are all great healers. They screw your head back on right.
You don’t sound like a selfish whiner. At the beginning, you sounded like everyone else does when they first come to this site – we all have our head full of the stock-standard ideas about romance and emotions and entitlement, and believing we are the exception to the rule, and completely ignoring our own role in our disasters.
This site soon sets you straight. Go to the list of posts that Natalie has done in the past, and just read them at random; they’re always marvellous and a real pick-me-up.
And buy that lipstick!
Leanne, it’s not about whether you believe you’re a ‘whiner’ or not. I don’t think that was what Suki was meaning with her excellent posts to you up thread. Rosie up thread makes similar points – these posts are priceless if/when you are able to absorb them. You see, moving your focus to whether you’re a whiner is just another way of avoiding settling into the the important questions around responsibility and self examination – why do you think you only deserve a married man who is by definition emotionally and in all other ways unavailable? From this other questions will arise…when you are ready to truly take your mind off him and recognise the painful truth of the ‘non reality’ of your relationship (another way of saying this is that it was built in the majority on fantasy on both sides because of the emotional ungroundedness/unavailability of both parties). Other questions will arise once this first big step is accomplished.
Rags,
Getting involved with a MM is EU, as they are unavailable!
So, at the end of the day he stopped by my office. He actually emailed in advance to ask how my break was and if I wanted to come by and talk. I told him I couldn’t, sorry. But then he stopped by mine at the end of the day with a little Christmas present (something very small and silly) and asked what I was doing for New Years. I tried to keep it very short and neutral and he didn’t stay long. I think he is actually trying to be friends, but it is so difficult.. It just won’t work! even in the 5 minutes he was there, I felt terrible when he mentioned his trip and then sat in a daze for the next hour after he left not being able to do anything. Good god! This is going to make me go crazy. I need to find a new job soon!! I would sort of like to email him to say don’t come by again (but I don’t want to sound rude/sad/angry). I guess if I am consistently quiet and NC on my end for long enough he will get the hint. I seriously can’t handle being friends with this man. Anyways, one more small step towards polite no contact. Carrying on.. Thanks for your support. Day 12 complete (though I don’t know if I have to start over? I hope not).
Leanne, see Natalie’s old post on managing breakup drama in the workplace.
I was just reading it this morning as one of my Random Reminders (in between posts, I like to revisit the list of all posts and just pick and choose one here and there to remind myself how to stay on the straight and narrow).
This one here is also handy:
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/reader-question-is-it-normal-to-want-revenge-on-my-married-assclown/
Leanne, I had to work with an ex who hurt me badly and I did everything I could to avoid him. We never had a discussion about it and I simply ignored him in every way possible. I had projects that needed his input, but I managed to figure out ways to do them on my own. I was so proud! I too was quietly NC and trying to keep my dignity – I figured eventually he would get the hint and leave me alone, but that took some time. Being a clueless idiot, he kept dropping in the office, or he’d call me on the phone about some work item, big smile when we’d pass in the hall. He was blithely going on like nothing had happened; I was tense and miserable anytime we had interaction. I was proud of how much NC I could accomplish, but looking back, if I had to do it again, I would definitely have sent a nice, polite but firm note right at the beginning that said something like “under the circumstances, it would be best for us to have as little contact as possible. I’m sure that whatever contact we need to have for work purposes can be handled through email.” No ambiguity, no hidden agenda, no secretly hoping it would change him, change the situation. You’re telling him to leave you alone in no uncertain terms.
So I recommend in your situation to make things as clear as possible as soon as possible. Why should you have to endure days of being miserable until he “gets the hint”? Forget the hinting – be clear and claim your power!
That’s very good advice Wiser! I think in situations such as Leanne’s taking a first step of commitment towards ourselves and doing better by ourselves has to be a leap of faith in some ways. Those feelings around hoping to be chosen/he will change don’t just go away overnight. I know how stubborn they – the result is a prolonged battle the battle to let go. Letting him know what’s what in straight up, unambiguous terms is a nurturing act for our wounds. Being our own strong parent. We act in the best interests of the resistant part of ourselves that wants to prolong all those deep imagined possibilities with someone whom we know deep done does not treat us or other people (ie his wife)well – with respect and consideration. And of course beyond that the knowledge of how poorly we have respected and cared for ourselves. It’s a first step to treating ourselves well even as we struggle with that. It’s a taste of what self respect (and hence for others) in action feels and looks like.
Leanne, throw the gift away. Would have been better to return it but sometimes thats hard to do in a classy way if you are still feeling bad. You didn’t break NC. He isn’t trying to be friends – he’s trying to keep you hooked. He’s trying to make sure he still looks like a good guy ‘yeah, I messed her up but I’m such a good guy, friends with all my exes even the ones that aren’t exes since they were the OW’. He’s making his ego feel better, thats all. He has no right to be ‘friends’ with the person he cheated on his wife with, there are no good motives here at all.
This is a not-good person, nothing he does involving you has good motives. Remember that. This is not being friendly, he is not your friend, he is your enemy. He is the enemy of your calm, your career, what you think of yourself, what others think of you etc etc.
I’m sorry to hear you felt so bad hearing about his trip – thats how it is when we get in these situations. You’ll go through all those other stages too, wondering why he gets to be so happy and you dont etc. Frankly, you dont have it near as bad as his spouse will when she finds out if she doesnt already suspect. You’re in a far better place that him or her.
AND if hearing about a trip, just a trip, something I could tell you about too [I’m with my friends! we are eating ten million mince pies!] makes you feel so bad – I hope you can see how bad this is for you, what a needy weak person it makes you because it is fundamentally a bad situation, a toxic situation.
Work harder, dont avoid other work colleagues, find a new group at work or socially, join classes, work harder harder harder. Fill your head with other things, watch junk TV.
Dont email him – your grief is yours to deal with on your own. Emailing him will restart the drama. NC is for you, you dont contact him, if he contacts you within your work life you stay polite. Dont pick up the phone if you see its from him outside work hours. Good luck.
Leanne, I have been reading your story and would like to give my input.
Because you have had a crush on a married man it doesn’t mean you are unavailable. You just had a crush and made a mistake opening up your heart and falling for a married man, who is a cheater and AC obviously. You just haven’t learned to control your emotions yet (allowing yourself to develop feelings for a married man. We all had done that – meaning not controlling for whom we are falling). Now you know. You will process this, it will all burn out, and you will never repeat this mistake again. I too fell in love with a married man in my late twenties. Had a crush on him for couple years (actual meetings = sex was for about 6 months). I was truly unavailable because I didn’t even question whether what I was doing was wrong. You are working on your thoughts and feelings and asking for an advice. That’s great self-awareness, which means availability to yourself. I realized I did something very wrong only during this year while processing my last epiphany relationship and all the other hurts and mistakes in my past. It’s a very healthy and good sign that you are aware of this dangerous for you and others situation.
My advice: if possible at all – change jobs. Or switch departments for now. The best is to leave the environment.
I think you are doing well. You will be over him in no time. Happy New Year!
Leanne,
He like a lot of AC don’t respect boundries. What you need to do be firm in your “NO” and also use your body language to convey that you don’t want him to bother you, he will leave you alone. These men are selfish and don’t care how u feel. They are only concerned with their feelings and nothing else. Remember that before you start to get nostaligic! Good Luck
Nope, you didnt break NC by replying to him in this case, as he works in the same office , not like you can NOT reply when he is in the same room 🙂