One of the biggest barriers to making the decision to break up, staying broken up, or breaking up with your self-esteem in tow, is people pleasing in an attempt to influence and control the other person’s feelings and behaviour.
In this situation, you think that you’re being ‘nice’, ‘loving’ etc., but when you examine what’s behind the thoughts, feelings and actions that encompass your patterns and habits in this area, what becomes apparent is that trying to be The Good Girl/Guy, is a means of avoiding and running from other feelings that you’re afraid to confront.
Here’s why: People pleasing is about doing what are often theoretically good things, but for the wrong reasons. Until the hidden agenda is revealed, it keeps you stuck in a painful loop where you’re trying to get it met while also blaming that person directly or indirectly for why you’re still there and suffering.
Now, that’s not to say that this person isn’t potentially saying or doing things that play into your propensity to be liked at all costs, but it is this lack of awareness about what’s behind your behaviour that drives you to keep engaging or certainly delaying on doing the right thing. Basically, it’s not that this person is The Best Thing Since Sliced Bread.
Are you being ‘nice’, ‘loving’ etc., because it’s a healthy connection, or are your pleasing activities motivated by the fear of confronting certain feelings/responsibilities and taking the next step and moving forward?
Here’s how you find out: What do you consistently feel about or around this person? Anxious, resentful, guilty, angry, vengeful, blame, shame, sad, victimised, powerless, helpless, owed, obliged, rage, or even depressed? If you’re experiencing reoccurring visits from any of these emotions, these are notifications that you are doing you a disservice and that the boundaries are very blurred or absent between you and this person.
You cannot make loving, caring, respectful, trusting decisions for you, never mind another person, if the boundaries are absent or blurred, because it makes you unable to distinguish your feelings, actions, personality and character from theirs.
Healing and moving forward with love is only going to happen when you are honest about the baggage behind these feelings.
When I struggled to break up and in some instances, do No Contact, it’s because I experienced feelings associated with abandonment, which I then fed with various thoughts and action habits that exacerbated those feelings further. It’s no wonder I struggled to have endings when I was responding as if I were running the risk of alienating a parent and experiencing a devastating wound.
Breaking up and letting go isn’t supposed to be easy but they’re a necessary part of life. Without loss, we don’t grieve and make space for something else that we didn’t anticipate. We don’t heal pain, fear and guilt and we’re often unaware of the impact that this emotional baggage has had. If we’re always clinging even when we know that a person and the relationship we have with them makes us less of who we are not more, we are settling for less.
Ask yourself: Who would I be without the drama of this relationship or my habits?
Life comes with some uncomfortable choices as part of the package. At some point you become aware of the importance of being loved, cared for, trusted and respected, not just by others but by you at the same time.
If you keep trying to be liked at all costs, when you are faced with uncomfortable but necessary decisions around boundaries, you will be stuck between a rock and a hard place. You will become so obsessed with the other person’s opinion of you and how you think they might feel, which incidentally, has very little to do with the truth and is more about your projections, that you will deeply compromise you. In trying to take care of their feelings and behaviour, you will neglect your own, ending up out of like and love with you. This becomes even more painful when it becomes apparent that the object of your angst is not going to lose themselves over you in the way that you’re prepared to over them. It’s a duff deal.
With all the best will in the world, you could lay yourself out on a sacrificial alter for this person, and they’re still going to think what they’re going to think, feel what they’re going to feel, and do what they’re going to do.
A breakup has to hurt before it doesn’t.
There may come a time when you can both be genuine friends or stay in touch periodically, but that time, along with your healing, will never come, if you keep screwing you over and expecting them to act or feel differently to make you feel better about it.
It’s all very well trying to be nice, loving, patient, understanding, empathetic etc., but it’s too much for someone who does not conduct themselves in that way towards you, to keep expecting you to continue as if they do. Giving these things to someone else though, must not come at the cost of giving them to you.
You can be nice, loving etc., without people pleasing and that’s by, wait for it– accepting that person for they are instead of trying to make them into who you’d prefer them to be. When you accept them, wholly and fully, you can see why you loved and liked them but you can acknowledge the factors that communicate that the relationship isn’t going to work.
Work on it
- What’s the baggage behind it? Locate the experience(s) of abandonment, rejection, disappointment or anger that’s blinding you in this situation. Acknowledge the impact that these experiences are having on your present-day thinking, feeling and behaviour.
- What are you trying to avoid? Identify the feelings, perceptions, responsibilities etc., that you’re running from. For example: you might be running from feelings of being ‘not good enough’, or avoiding committing to what you really need and want. What are you trying to be in control of? e.g. Uncertainty, them spontaneously combusting into someone else.
- How is this avoidance manifesting itself? List the specific things that you’re being and doing as part of this habit so that you’re aware, not just of the cost, but also the habit itself. This is your disappointment cycle. Now, when you’re, for instance, about to pretend to be friends even though this inevitably results in you feeling ashamed and berating you, you can say, ‘That would be me trying to avoid those feelings of being disliked by my peers at school’, and you can pull yourself into the present and have some compassion for your current and younger self.
- What can you do for you? I learned to talk me off the proverbial ledge of my freakouts. I stopped chasing fear noise and I reminding myself that my ex wasn’t my daddy or mommy. I stopped tricking myself, acknowledging where I was trying to be in control of him because I was afraid of taking command of me and saying no to my tantrums. By saying no to destructive stuff, I also learned that having boundaries is how we show love for ourselves and others. I also discovered that worrying made no difference because contrary to my ego’s opinion, he and I were not hooked up to each other’s minds and emotions. I’d worry about him not liking me or hurting him, he’d be letting me know that he’d happily get into my pants or doing something that reminding me that he was all about himself. What was there to fear? Doing things designed to avoid/control is different to what you do to take care of you and spark loving feelings.
- Commit to healing the baggage behind the habits in this breakup. Let the fallout from trying to be ‘nice’ and ‘pleasing’ be the wake-up call that it is to address the root cause of your people pleasing habits. Whether it’s through self-exploration and other support and resources you might draw on, or with the help of a professional, make this commitment a higher priority than being liked by ‘everyone’ or by this particular person. Think about how you want to feel, not just right this minute or in a few days or hours, but how you want to feel in future. You can only see a little bit of the road in front of you but there’s a great deal beyond what you see. Don’t sacrifice a loving future or present, to keep catering to the past.
Some Baggage Reclaim resources and books you might find useful: My Feelings Diary and Unsent Letter guides, both available for free from my downloads section. My latest book Love, Care, Trust & Respect, for guidance on loving relationships and how to get there, plus The No Contact Rule.
Hi everyone. Great post Natalie! It is amazing and so timely. I have had some really good weeks healing and have found a new position! so am moving on!!
But I will be doing the exercises you posted about here to help with healing the additional baggage of this breakup.
My people pleasing here to try to make-up for my (legitimate) blow up at him two years ago has been the worst. And he’s continued to spin it like I am the heartbroken loser, while I have continued to try to repair things. People pleasing has made him feel better and more powerful and me feel worse and worse, even though I never deserved any of this from the start: I have created this extra pain for myself.
I have to forgive myself for this people pleasing, but I also have to stop doing it! Life has taught many of us women to always be nice. And in this situation, the one time I was “not nice” and told him what I really thought of his behaviour, he scurried away. Being nice since then was my continued effort to salvage our relationship, but it resulted in exacerbating what was already apparent if I stopped and just payed attention: I was the only one who making an effort to repair things and the only one who cared.
By making extra efforts to be good to him, he continued to exonerate himself from any wrongdoing and brush off his shitty behaviour to me because I was demonstrating that it wasn’t that bad (it was) and I was so in love that I was willing to settle for less (when I deserved/deserve WAY better!). I was trying to “nice” my way into keeping an illusion alive.
But, of course, it didn’t work anyways. And like Natalie says, left me feeling like I had totally abandoned myself. He seemed to relish in watching me squirm, but beyond that, people pleasing for the last two years has been one big exercise in watching myself try to turn a real (shitty) situation and a person with real flaws into the amazing person/relationship that I thought it was when we were together and have built up in my head that it could be again. It was an illusion! If one “calling out” for real behaviour was enough to scare this man away so that he no longer talks to me and treats me like garbage, there was nothing real here to begin with. Seriously. I need to write that on a sticky note and stick it on my forehead!. And trying to over-nice it for the last while reallyprevented me from calling it what it was and moving on sooner.
But I have been getting stronger and strong these past six months and particularly in the last couple, I have been making extra efforts to move on. I will be continuing to work on myself (including going through the bullets above and really spending sometime with this).
Thank you so so much Natalie! For always helping put things in perspective and for everyone here sharing their inspiring stories and advice and continuing to be a support. xo
I remember finally finding time to forgive my bad behaviour towards myself in my last realtionship. I realised pretty late that people pleasing also is a way of undermining myself. And how can i expect someone to treat me well if I dont treat myself well?
I came accross an article the other day about how to start dating again after your divorce. I am divorced myself and has been looking into dating for a long time. However I am scared of making the same mistakes i did last time.
http://www.nextlove.com/blog/overcome-dating-fright-post-divorce/
“The first thing you need to do is be kind to yourself! So that means to stop beating yourself up over your divorce and start realising that you are a fantastic person, inside and out. ”
Made me think of this subject. Because being a people pleaser is not being nice to yourself.
I think if we all take care of our needs and respect our feelings along the process then we will come a long way in our next relationship
EEEEEEP! I just received your new book, Nat, and my fourth copy of Mr Unavailable and the FallbackGirl (I devour every copy making them illegible, i.e., they go with me in my in the bed, the bath tub, everywhere).
I am so excited to begin reading Mr Unavailable for the fourth time (it is one of my favorite books), it gives women who have that pesky (and sometimes ferocious) addiction to bad men a chance at life, as pursing jerks will eat your life and leave one nothing.
Anyhow, your new book was/is such a fantastic idea. You are one of my all time favorite writers. (I order your paperback books from Amazon and they are so affordable and arrive super quickly–just when I need them).
Thank you, you are a gift to humanity.
So it appears Mr Nice Guy is not quite as nice and available as I thought. My fault, I guess, for trying to see something that wasn’t there. Just been out for a birthday party with a group from the office, including Mr Nice Guy and our female, very dynamic,very intelligent boss. I’m no body language expert but his body language screamed “familiar” with our boss and her body language wasn’t exactly freezing him out which leads me to think there is something more going on. This angers more than upsets me as she’s apparently happily married and yet it appears she’s not against dangling young men on the end of a string. I’m not as yet sure whether they’re having an affair or she just likes the attention.
I’m not sad at the loss really as I think I probably dodged a bullet here, but I’m frustrated and frankly disappointed my spidey senses got this so wrong. It all looked so promising – same interests and sense of humour, he didn’t seem opposed to my career goals, we genuinely laugh until it hurts etc and yet the result is the same. He gets distracted by someone else or perhaps he wasn’t that interested to begin with and I didn’t see the red flags. Thankfully we never got so far that things might be awkward (self-preservation kicking in, maybe I always knew?) but it sure is another time I’d very much like to understand WTF is going on inside a guy’s head.
Any thoughts, ladies and gents?
Trust your instincts now. What your boss does is not your concern, how he treats you is. Don’t ignore his behaviour at that event. If you sense he isn’t committed to you, pay attention to that. Talk to him about it and don’t ignore what he says or his body language when he’s talking to you.
Men generally can’t be *emotionally* attached to more than 1 woman (current, past or present) at a time. Mr. Nice Guy may *like* you and all, and may be available sexually to you, but you already know that he is emotionally invested in “her,” not you. Mmmmm. . . further, sounds like she knows this and is playing with him, perhaps not as “happily married” as it seems on the surface?
Sorry.
No need for apologies at all, you’re right!
I need to trust my instincts – something is way off between them. I believe I may have had a lucky escape. I can deal with him not being interested in me to be honest, as I’ve developed enough self-love to realise I really am worthy of a loving, equal partnership with a complete nutjob Sci Fi fan like me (thanks Natalie, you didn’t pull punches in Mr Unavailable!).
What actually upsets me most – I think – is my perceived betrayal by my boss. Not because she knew I was interested in Mr (Ex) Nice Guy as I don’t believe it was that obvious and she purposefully “stole” him, but more that I thought she was better than this. She’s bright, hilariously funny, and darn good at her job. She’s really invested in me, helping me develop my skills. I actually found her quite an inspiration. And now I’m struggling to see her that way and it ruddy well hurts. I perhaps shouldn’t have put her on a pedestal but I work in such a male dominated environment it was reassuring to have a strong female role model I could look up to.
Sigh. 🙁
Oh, that sucks Nell. I can’t respect cheaters either. Is it possible they just had a relationship before she got married?
It’s not a very pleasant situation to be in, I agree, it sucks!
She’s been married for about 10 years (very happily I thought) and he’s in his mid 20s so slightly younger than me, about 10 years younger than her. A friend outside my organisation wonders if she’s maybe trying to prove to herself she’s still got “it”.
That said, I have no actual proof beyond their odd, out of character interaction at the bar – they seem professional at work. I could have read this completely wrong but alarm bells are clanging like crazy in my head and I’ve learnt not to ignore them!
As Nat says, peoplenunfold over time, so I don’t think you have missed any red flags, you have picked up on them and paid attention. And you also said “thankfully things didn’t get so far that it would become awkward”, so a good time to be paying attention and noticing a red flag. Particularly as you work together…. so I think you have done really well to notice these issues early!
Nat also talks about having common interests vs common values, you talked about your common interests, do you know his and your values are? Perhaps you value respecting your dating partner and not flirting with others while he doesn’t value that so much?
Possum, you make some excellent points there about Values vs. Interests. Looking back at our interaction I realized we never really spoke about values, more stuff we like and enjoy, like films and other geeky stuff. Another valuable lesson for me.
I’m a little hurt, yes,but actually think I may have escaped what could have become an awkward difficult situation had I not realized there was something else going on in the background.
I’m still not 100% sure what that something else is but I’m trusting myself this time and taking a biiiiig step back. IF there is something going on and they’re found out they’ll both be in trouble (her in particular) as our organization has very strict policy against line management relationships. I want nothing to do with it when/if it happens. I shall lick my slightly wounded pride in peace!
From what you have described and despite your instincts i doubt your boss is fooling around with this guy. Sure it is possible but unlikely.
While he sounds a dick flirting with her in front of you that is probably all it is. I don’t know a women on this planet that would not be enamoured by a younger man’s attention.
And maybe her positive body language towards him is no more than a cat playing with a mouse.
I’m not sure if this is right, but I think you can see someone’s values by their actions and behaviours, ie if they value being on time they don’t turn up late, if they value honesty they behave honestly.
Another example: I am interested in losing weight, I talk about it, I know I need to change my eating habits, but I don’t really make an effort. So it’s an interest that I probably have in common with a lot of people! However, if I really honestly valued losing weight and it was truely important to me my actions and behaviour would change and reflect that.
Hello everyone – I’ve recently discovered BR and think it’s great but just wanted to ask, is this for women only? I’m a guy but I’m in a very similar situation with a n EU girl!
No – open to all !
It’s open to all. You wouldn’t be the first guy to ask this and if it’s any comfort, I have a hell of a lot of male readers. Welcome!
“Painful loop” is correct. To keep MUA in my life I have to be nice, relaxed, and responsive. In return he cycles from attraction to interaction to rejection. But, how do I feel when we are together? I feel like the most incredible, funny, smart, desirable person in the world. When he leaves he takes the emotional content of my heart and tucks it into his back pocket until he needs to see me again.
We were friends for a significant period of time. Then attraction took over and neither of us said “no”. I have a strong investment in his opinion of me. He has been through a lot. I try to have good zen and be a source of comfort to him; my apprehension is that he will disappear if he can apply the term demanding to me.
Natalie, I have been reading here for about a month, having found you through tinybuddha.com. Reading CYO last night made me laugh, cry, ruminate and recover repressed memories. Thank you.
Correction: the book I read last night was “Fantasy”.
What does MUA stand for?
Wait one-You HAVE “disappeared!” Listen to yourself: (when I’m with him)”…I feel like the most incredible, funny, smart, desirable person in the world…(he leaves and takes) the emotional content of my heart and tucks it into his back pocket..” You mean like in the same general vicinity where he puts his wallet??
“I have a strong investment in his opinion of me.” Well, who’d a thunk it??!
(And then it gets scarier yet. Aye)
I don’t know what MUA means either but I think it has something to do with an unspoken excuse a la “he has been through a lot.” Which I guess it a Get Outta Jail Free card for anyone who has ever stubbed their toe on the footboard while attempting to sneak away from the scene of the Mutually (mis)Understood Assignation.
You know, all those wonderful feelings he has absolute control over (apparently)? Well, they’re coming from YOU. Self-generated. Have you seen your Self lately? Think: Where did you see that Self last-if at all? Go back there. That’s where ya need to start. Obviously you have the capacity to generate these kinds of feelings so there’s hope here. Believe it or not, he’s not the generator of all these goodies-you are. In your head. THEY DO NOT EXIST IN REALITY-OR IN HIM. Please remember professional Booty Calls are also left alone until “he needs to see” them-but at least they get paid. In the meantime, you can’t even “comfort” your own Self-so the only thing you have to give anyone else is a dilemma: “Fill me up on high test (oooo, an oxytocin fix!) and lemme know how much I owe ya” with a gas tank that leaks like a sieve. Runnin on empty isn’t conducive to zen so much as zed: Zero self-respect. Zero self-confidence. Zero understanding of your own needs, wants, desires, *where they really originate from* or how to dare even ask for someone to JOIN WITH you in celebrating these same human needs. Because if you ask, he might accuse you of being “demanding” and “disappear.” This isn’t a relationship: It’s a “Take Me Away” fantasy writ in million candlewatt power on a blank slate you’ve used to project all kinds of stellar qualities and magic Shazam *you need to believe* he alone possesses. Meanwhile, objectively the guy “needs” a toothbrush and clean shorts.
A relationship that’s fear based is like a dog whose behavior is fear based: Sooner or later they’re gonna bite ya no matter how “nice” or “zen”you are to them. Without some serious remediation of the underlying cause the result will remain the same. If you continue to stay where you are, I hope you can afford some more serious pain-and seriously expensive co-pays. Do you have any concept of an upper limit on how much you’re willing to pay to play, to get another opportunity to be the Other Woman to his already expansive and ever-expanding Ego? To be his personal helium to inflate his Ego?
Keep reading and start applying, OK? This post was tailored by Ms. N just for you and this kind of…situation. Insight alone is not enough to stop digging your own grave any deeper. Please, stop here. Take a well deserved and “life affirming” break for some serious “hmmm.” And ask yourself while you’re at it what is it about *your own needs to “fix”* that are being met by confusing love with pity.
I have a feeling your concept of a “demand” is somewhere around “Please pass the salt when you’re done with it, if you don’t mind and if you think I deserve some and if the moon is in waining gibbous with Libra in retrograde and Venus is rising, OK? No? That’s OK too-after all, that salt and shaker has been through a lot.”
Good luck-yes, you can so do this. But this guy? He coulda been anyone as long as you continue to believe only some “he” can ring your bell. Guess what? You already have the bell and YOU get to decide who you wish to share making that clapper clap *with*-not *at*-you. Otherwise, from simply a practical point of view you run a not insignificant risk of an MD shoving a long needle in your butt after a serious discussion of STD transmission. Yeah. Ouch. Especially when it could have been avoided with the judicious application of Reality.
C’mon, I know you can make room in your life for your own uniquely lovely Self that’s just begging to be heard-and respected. (Besides, I also know you can generate at least some of those same good feelings in under 3 minutes-and that’s from a Cold Start. Just sayin)
Wow, so direct and deadly-on, TW. Natalie’s original and what others have said make me thing of that “people pleasing” = daddy issues and also being modeled to and molded by unhealthy relationships growing up. I mean, if we are going through a lot of drama that is unequal to please a man and he is just raking us in (and over the coals) we really have to ask ourselves what the root of that all is.
Also, I think don’t underestimate the fact that there is emotional unavailability going on on BOTH ends (the pleaser and the pleasee) b/c both parties have shut out their right to having needs met in an authentic way. Because neither recognizes their true needs. Which means, honesty, discussion, sharing and the like, not this random, overboard “pleasing” and “being nice.”
Not wanted to end a relationship with a pleaser (b/c it feels good to keep someone on their toes and, essentially, use them) and to keep a relationship by doing anything to please is equal parts twisted, IMHO.
I meet regularly men who awwwww, just can’t seem to detach from their significant others. To which I respond, I’ll be under you as soon as the ink dries over the divorce papers, but not before, okay? See, she’s doing everything to please him so he’ll stay, and he *stays* but cheats. How many sob stories I have heard about how the wife is no good in one way or another so I can take his side and sleep with him, to which I always ask, but does she wash your dirty undies and roast chicken for you? To which he replies “Yeah, sure, every day” as if it’s nothing to him.
See, *staying* from *pleasing* is no indicator of a good, healthy, mutual relationship with an emotionally available, good, healthy man.
I think it takes a lot of detective work to avoid these types of scenarios, as pleasing type roles are common among women, especially if the father was emotionally unavailable even *slightly* — there’s going to be a hole/void to fill preyed upon by men who groove to such behaviors.
Hello ladies,
I am new on here, having just purchased Natalie’s ‘Mr Unavailable’ book and discovered the Baggage Reclaim website.
Well, it seems to have happened again…… After messaging on a dating site for a week or two this guy asked me if I wanted to meet up for drinks. We exchanged numbers, met up and it all seemed to go well, no ‘red flags’, he was nicely attentive without being OTT. When we were going to go our separate ways at the end of the night he was gentlemanly, waiting with me for my bus home to arrive, texting me during my journey saying what a nice time he’d had and asking me to text to say when I was home safely. All normal, all good. We had a further 5 dates after that, dinner, drinks (pictures once). Again, all good so far (no ‘red flags’). We would normally text each other several times a week between dates and he would ask when I was free to meet up again. Our last text contact was last Wednesday, he sent me a message and I answered it. Nothing from him since then, quite unusual, so now I’m thinking that I’ve been ‘ghosted’. I am an intelligent person, not needy, I don’t ever hassle a guy with loads of texts, I don’t text again until I’ve had a reply and I never call a guy when he’s at work. Still, it seems this guy has ‘played’ me.
All along I have been calm and cool, reciprocating this guy’s interest but not being ‘full-on’ in any way. Why the feck has this happened to me, seemingly without any warning?!
Would rather get an explanation from him face-to-face but that doesn’t look likely now….. So, I have drafted a short, calm, dignified text message (with no swearing, no exclamation marks, no caps, nothing unpleasant). When we reach the one-week ‘radio silence’ point later this week I plan to send it to him. I will do this for MYSELF to help me move on and stop thinking about this piss-taker any more. He’s already had more of my mental energy than he deserves, I’ve been racking my brain trying to think of any signs I’ve missed in his behaviour up until his ‘disappearance’. There have even been some tears, I confess. (I know in my mind that he’s not worth even one of my tears, but I’m human and I do feel pain when someone treats me badly). I know that he really ‘isn’t that special’ (as Natalie says), but it’s still pretty raw at the moment. It’s really hard to trust anyone when there seem to be so many idiots like this guy out there! He even has the same first name as an ex of mine who hurt me VERY deeply, though it took him longer to reveal himself as a proper ‘wrong ‘un’ than this latest guy…..
I also know from this site that I would be advised to No Contact this cretin but I do need to send him the one final message I’ve drafted. I’m doing this only for ME, not because I’m expecting him to text back apologising to me and declaring his undying love–Hell, I don’t even expect any response at all. Any ‘man’ (I use the word loosely, as he isn’t acting like an emotionally grown-up man at all) who is doing this sort of thing to women is a coward and will probably never admit to having behaved in a disgusting manner. Once I’ve sent my message it will definitely be full No Contact, believe me! (I promise). I don’t plan to engage with him and accept a load of lame excuses should he bother to get in touch (which is doubtful). This too shall pass, I hope….. I’m SO tired of it all.
Any thoughts on this ladies? Hope to hear back from one (or several) of you.
Sorry we’ve all gone through such a load of crap at the hands of these game-playing, emotionally manipulative, soul-destroying, tosser Unavailables. But I am glad we have this forum to help ourselves (and our fellow sufferers) to slowly heal and try to move on.
All the best to all of you. 🙂 M
Please note: By ‘forum’ I mean’t the traditional meaning of the word (a place for discussion), not ‘forum’ in the IT sense. I know this is a blog. Sorry.
Michele,
It’s great that you’ve written out what you’d like to say to him, but I would VERY strongly suggest you think hard about sending it. And decide not to.
Sending it will keep you connected to him, hoping for a reply that might not come. And if he does reply, it will be tempting for you to do the same, and the cycle will continue. Either way: he is still going to be on your mind more than he needs to be and it will delay your getting over him needlessly. Keep your text as a reminder to you that you don’t need him. Break it all off with him now, for your own well-being. You can do it!
Hi Crystal,
Nice to ‘meet’ you.
Thanks. I do take your point and understand your reasons for making it and I have debated whether or not to send the message to Mr Time Waster. In this instance I do feel the need to ‘say’ something to him, I think it will be freeing for me actually. (As I’ve given far too much thought as to why he has done this and I will continue to do so without this final communication). After that, end of. No more contact with him. I will never know what’s gone on in his mind but I feel as if just leaving it as is will only serve as some kind of validation of his behaviour. ‘See, it’s not so bad what I did, she doesn’t seem bothered about it’, he’ll think. I know how to cut a toxic person out of my life, I will not engage with him and will be perfectly happy to No Contact him (permanently).
Everyone is different of course, hopefully this will be the right course of action for me (in this case anyway). If not, I will say thanks again to you for having tried to talk me out of it. 🙂
Cheers, M
Good luck whichever way you go. I hope freedom from him comes quickly.
Hi Crystal,
Thanks for the good wishes. Tomorrow is the day, I’ll send the message then. I expect A) No reply B) Simply a pathetic ‘Sorry’ (and that’s it) or C) A defensive response because he know’s he’s done wrong and can’t handle admitting that he’s actually not a ‘nice guy’.
Bets anyone? 😉
Wishing all you ladies a drama-free day. M
Hi Michelle,
I’m inclined to agree with you on this one. I don’t see any harm in sending a text message if the purpose of it is to conclude matters once and for all. I have, in the past, sent final texts to guys who have treated me badly like yours has, as a means of:
1. Making my feelings clear about their behaviour – especially when I know I won’t have a chance to speak to them face-to-face
2. Letting them know I won’t tolerate their BS any longer
3. To advise them that I’m no longer interested in them/the relationship
4. To instruct them NEVER to contact me again
Sometimes you really need to draw a hard line in order to move forward without any hopes of reconciliation.
I’d be interested to know how he responds to your message (if at all). Please keep us posted. 🙂
Hi Rachel,
Thanks. Yes, this is purely my way of ending ‘whatever it was’ with this guy.
It’s funny (more sad than funny actually) how on our last date he was holding my hand at the table and kissed me sweetly as we said our goodbyes at the end of the night. He didn’t do it in a phoney or OTT way either, it all seemed so normal (we’d kissed before and he’d held my hand as we walked). Then to ‘drop-kick’ me like this. Damn, he’s good (at being a two-faced shite)…..
I’ll let you know what (if any) response I get from ‘Mr Wonderful’. 😉 M
Michele,
I completely understand girl, I’ve dated guys like this so many times, and it’s always disappointing when the bottom falls out so unexpectedly. Makes you wonder if it was all an act, or maybe they did start to catch feelings and it scared the crap outta them? Who knows?!
The important thing is that he revealed his true (ugly) self to you early enough in the game for you to escape with pride and dignity in place. Assuming that there was no sexual contact either, you’ve come out winning in my opinion!
The bruised pride feeling will dissipate soon, but don’t beat yourself up over this one. I think he did you a favour by opting himself out, so that you are now free to date guys who want to be in your life.
Look forward to that update! 🙂
Hi Rachel,
No, I have not had sex with this guy, would have been way too soon. We were still ‘getting to know each other’ (or so I thought anyway)…….
Obviously, ‘ghosting’ is a pretty shit thing to do (to anyone). If he wasn’t interested, one date should have told him something, no? It does for me and I’m grown-up woman enough to tactfully tell the guy that I don’t think we should see each other again (for both of our sakes). Communication shouldn’t be too much to ask for should it?
This latest setback has sort of put me into ‘I’m never gonna meet anyone decent!’ mode again, which does make the tears flow a bit. It just feels so exhausting at times, having to ‘pick myself up off the canvas’ over and over again. (My ability to trust dwindling with each new disappointment).
Anyway, I’m sending him the message this evening (after he’s out of work). I’ll give you an update. ????
PS. Welcome to the BR community Consistent. (Men are always welcome, great to have the male perspective on these things too). I’m sure that many women are also guilty of the very same disrespectful dating/relationship behaviour many men are.
Why don’t you just ring him?
He could have been hit by a bus and be dead for all you know.
Texting is for teenagers.
I actually thought more or less the same thing – about the bus!
I had a similar thing happen, but we were together almost a year. Typical EUM, whenever things got serious or I tried to have a conversation he would back out and treat me like we didn’t have any connection. The people pleaser in me took his behavior because I hoped that he would eventually reciprocate my dedication. He never did…and chose to break up with a half assed conversation where he told me he loved me but needed to “figure things out” even asked if I would be patient with him during which I agreed. He then slowly stopped communicating. About a month after our convo asked if he was ready to talk I got a very simple “im sorry I tried.” and that was it. A few weeks later I got the you are great thank you for all the memories texts but nowhere hinted towards wanting to try again. Then came the facebook likes, instagram likes and messages sent with funny videos ect. At first because i am me…responded in the kind way I always do. Then it hit me…he couldn’t even break up in a respectful way, left me to come to my own decision that it was over, so why did he deserve my kindness when he showed NO respect to me. So i left a message, a very refreshing message, where I told him “if you can’t give me the respect to resolve our relationship, I am in no position to try and be friends with someone who lacks that level of consideration. If a conversation is not something you can do than take this as my goodbye.” I got a text telling me he listened to my voicemail and that was it. I didn’t respond and it felt great. I for once stood up for myself and my feelings and didn’t fall into my people pleaser behavior. It was sad in some respects because I was still holding onto being in contact with him…but I know in the long run its the best thing for me and my healing. He is someone I would want a friendship with, but not under these circumstances. I agree that you have to be realistic in what you are hoping to get out of your contact with that person…but when it comes to standing up for you I fully think that is the right avenue to take.
I’m a little confused — based on the topic, I’m not sure why you’re so upset about a guy disappearing after 5 dates. It’s not a “relationship,” he wasn’t your “boyfriend,” not much is to be expected of a man met on a dating site — except what you described.
Did you try to please him into something or appear perfect and now are upset that he’s now gone, after “all you did”? Was there sex? Were you not adequately prepared that such behavior from a man on the Internet is kinda the norm?
He dumped you with no explaination and you can’t handle that for some reason. Why? Is this a pattern that triggers something for you?
I’m reading into it based on the topic “why am I getting dumped even though I’m so nice to men” — but that isn’t what you specifically stated. NOW THAT would be a reason to be upset, and look further into yourself as to why you feel that way, not the expected behavior of some dating site guy who was a stranger to you before clicking and texting.
Btw, as a musician I meet guys like that all the time. I blow through them like tissues/hankies. I’m not saying it takes a thick skin to deal with it — far from it, as I am very sensitive which it sounds like you may be as well. When you are “nice” and “good” and “pleasing” and “fun,” you don’t expect people to treat you badly in any way, you expect them to gravitate towards you for more of same. But (sh)it happens, more often than not. I learned to really be clear about why somebody would seem to be so interested in me and then. . .nothing, all of a sudden. I know that it feels SO harsh to let go and move on, like ALL the time.
I learned so far that me being upset was some measure of feeling that I’d done everything “right” and didn’t get what I wanted PLUS I wanted more than that person was able to give. It sometimes feels like wondering, “What happened, did I not meet up to their standards? Or did *they* not meet up to *mine*?” I think that I’m learning that the vast majority of people are not meant to be attachments — not as friends or lovers, and that a dinner or show out (or *five*) is just that at that moment (or moments) and nothing more.
So. . .think through things for yourself very carefully, I say. I wouldn’t send a message of any sort, and don’t reply to his, if any.
Sorry if it sounds harsh, I’m learning to balance directness with seeming crude or rude — it’s something I have to do in dealing with loads of the general public — it’s hard, people especially men want pleasing behavior — they go on the attack if that’s not what they get. If you send a message like the one you described, he may attack you in some way — remember, this is not someone you know well.
Well said. And correct.
He owes you nothing. Girls pull this shit all the time. While i empathise with your hurt …. maybe he is hoping for you to contact him first and not just replying.
If you really like him …. contact him. Then if he answers or not you will have clarity. But texting. No. Ring him. Be an adult.
He has done nothing wrong.
Hi Hareeba,
‘Girls pull this shit all the time.’ (The word ‘shit’ does imply that something wrong has been done).
‘He’s done nothing wrong.’
Make up your mind.
Again, my point is it’s just the LACK OF COMMUNICATION if he’s ‘changed his mind’ I take issue with. THAT’S what shows a total lack of respect for the other person’s time, energy and feelings. Just be a grown-up man (instead of a coward) and TALK to me about it. Not too much to ask for I don’t think.
It’s completely uncool for men OR women to simply vanish without so much as a word. See what I’m getting at?
I agree. My take is that I always go for closure and if there has been shady behaviour I let them know. If you are an adult it is adult to let the other person know you don’t want to pursue things. I have done this on a first date and also indicated if I’d like to meet again for a second date to avoid wasting my time. That shows respect for yourself and others. The interesting thing is that men have always learnt from my behaviour and acted better for the next woman. Dating with dignity also means bowing out with dignity. Ghosting is not acceptable it is immature and disrespectful of another person. If someone does this then they aren’t someone you want to have a relationship with.
Hi there…can relate so much to what you are going through, met a (fabulous – or so I thought) guy online a few months ago, and we really hit it off..thought this might be the one, finally. (We live 7 hours drive apart but he was coming to see me over Christmas). Well – guess what happened? He started a slow fade, less and less messages/calls – and was back on the dating site. I finally had enough on Christmas Eve and sent him a (polite) email asking where he thought this was going, and for him to just be honest if he had changed his mind. Guess what – radio silence since then. I have now had over a month of No Contact – which has been pretty difficult sometimes! – thought he might regret losing me, but it would appear not. The thing that annoys me the most is how much this has got to me/hurt me – I am not a child, and know people can behave like s***s. I am getting over it, and you will too – but it is such an a-hole thing to do to someone. Stay strong, girl.
Hi Gail,
Yeah, it really is pathetic the cowardly BS these guys subject us to.
I must say that my decision to send this (latest) idiot a short final message was a good one for me (rather than just taking it, saying nothing and thereby ‘letting him off the hook’). I very calmly explained how uncool that sort of behaviour is and suggested he ‘have a word with himself’. I’m sure he won’t change (they never do) but having my say felt great, I unburdened myself of his narcissistic, disrespectful crap once and for all. Done. All texts and contact details deleted, he’s dead to me now. 🙂
Michele, he changed his mind. That is all that is happened.
Are you saying he is not permitted to change his mind about you? I just watched an episode of “Black Mirror” where society as a whole based personal self-esteem on getting “likes” from others. It created a society of artificial-ness, where people did their best to be super-liked in all encounters – being super-positive with strangers on the elevator and the clerk who gets the coffee….it wasn’t done out of genuine interest in the other person, but more for getting a good rating from them after the encounter was over.
Michele, you seem to be living or dying by whether or not this man is still showing a high intense “like” for you. His frequent texting became key to you approving of yourself – that is bad, that is the problem.
Chill out, girl. Stop demanding that he explain why he has slowed down his texts to you. It happens. It has nothing to do with your worth. There is no need for you to send a Grand Statement of your “relationship status”. Besides, aren’t you really just trying to elicit some response from him – any response? You need a text fux..oops..fix….text fix.
My feeling is, if you let it be, he will come around again…in a month or two. His actions clearly say he wants things to be casual.
If he is a game player, he may be testing you, to see how much you will do to keep him interested. He text-bombs you for a few weeks, then shuts off the spigot, and waits to see how you react.
Sometimes we fall in love with “attention”, not even realizing that we are not really in love with the *person*. If what you really crave is consistency, this is not the man for you.
And – My guess is that MUA is Mr. Unavailable
I love that show , Elgie R! I’m a bit of an anxious mess about society after watching sometimes. But it helps me use all the technologies in my life mindfully now
Hi misspriscilla,
I don’t care if he replies in a defensive, even abusive manner or (more likely) doesn’t reply at all. That’s not the point. I will do this for ME and only me, he will probably read it (out of sheer curiosity) and delete it. Maybe something will register in his brain, maybe it won’t. At least I will ‘say my bit’, not just ‘wear it’ and suffer in complete silence. It’s a very measured message, not any sort of mad rant (I don’t do those). IF he does reply, I will read it and delete it (whatever it is) and that’ll be that.
My ‘experiment’ with online dating is relatively recent and I take what the guys say on there with a handful of salt. I am in no way naive.
As for the length of time of our acquaintance or the number of dates we went on, I think it’s a bit irrelevant. It is hurtful when anyone treats you badly whether you’ve known them for weeks or many years, whether it’s dates, mates, family or work colleagues–people either treat other people with respect or they don’t.
Hi Michelle — Yeah, that’s an angle, my understanding of what you’re saying is taking your power back. I agree that it feels hurtful when people behave weird.
I think what I have learned is that emotional unavailability creates strange behavior, it doesn’t matter how long you’ve known the person, I agree that it’s there or it isn’t. Losing any investment, even if it’s “good behavior,” like, “I treated you with respect for however long, how come you didn’t do the same, huh?”? Feels wrong.
That’s why, for example in my small dealings with the “music business” where, as an amateur I thought things would be happy and free and about getting together and loving music. The very second I discovered that it wasn’t, and that even as a casual player I could be manipulated by men, I resorted to putting things in writing and stating my expectations upfront through my website. Like “Hey, great to meetcha! Great, the idea of getting together! Read this, this is who I am, okay?” And if they don’t bother to even check out my website well, caveat emptor, you get what you pay for — I know that I’m not dealing with someone who cares about ME but wants some other hidden, unstated need met. To control, to feel superior, to get sex — whatever it is, it’s bound to be strange, not music.
As humans, not robots, feeling feelings can bring out the worst in us. Emotionally unavailable people tend to act strange when things get real, over time.
So. . .I’m not saying being so “hardcore” like I do out of necessity in certain situations in future, but as you go along in future, perhaps stating your expectations of getting to know someone upfront would help. That way, it’s more clear to you and them that their behavior is about THEM, not you.
Have you tried just asking guys upfront, kind of screening them, if you will, if they’ve ever “ghosted” someone they were dating? And stating that you feel very uncomfortable continuing to interact with someone who has done that in the past, and might do it to you? And that you’d like a phone call, or last meal or whatever if they don’t want to see you anymore?
I guess I’m trying to say in a rather longwinded way, don’t just “expect” things, good behavior or whatever of people you don’t know. Find some way, however awkwardly, to state your needs, wishes and desires, to own them. Don’t make others responsible for your feelings — people you don’t know, who don’t know you. That’s a setup for perpetual pain, especially if you continue to “date” online men and otherwise complete strangers you and no one you know has met previously.
It’s been clumsy for me to navigate social relationships with a sense of self (e.g. not be so pleasing, to be say, disagreeable at times if only to show different sides of my personality) but eventually well worth the journey. I don’t go by “rules” of “respect” any more, just to be “agreeable” and “nice” and expect the same back from people who really, truly, can’t give that to me.
Based on what we’re talking about relative to the topic Natalie opened — being automatically, as if on autopilot, “pleasing” to people is a NO — some discernment and detective work about the situations we find ourselves in with what types of people is necessary as well. It’s like, don’t bend over backwards to be any kind of way with new folks, suss ’em out with due dilligence. That way, we’re not so taken aback by strange behavior, maybe, and not expecting something not in keeping with the (awful) truth of who that person truly is just because we were “so nice to them”
Hi Miss P,
Yeah, it would be a great time (and energy) saver if we could simply ask a guy if he’d ‘ghosted’, stood someone up, cheated, etc. and he would give us an honest answer to make it easier to make an informed decision as to whether to continue dating him. Unfortunately, in most cases you probably would not receive an honest answer, it would ‘freak him out’ and he would beat a hasty (and cowardly) retreat. He’d tell himself, ‘She’s too demanding’ or ‘She’s getting “way too heavy” about things’. Too bad really……….nice idea.
I wish a neon sign would just appear over these guys’ heads: ‘Mr Passive Aggressive’, ‘Mr Time Waster’, ‘Mr Two-Faced’, ‘Mr Married and Hasn’t Told You’ (!), ‘Mr Still Needs His Mummy’, ‘Mr “Separated” (but not really)’………….. The ‘selection’ of signs would be endless. Until, maybe one day, from out of the crowd ‘Mr Actual Grown-Up, Emotionally Mature, Respectful, Ready to Start a Mutually Fulfilling Relationship’ appears. Then witness the ‘stampede’ of women trying to get to this one Golden Ticket of a man. 😉 M
Hi Michelle — Yeah, that’s an angle, my understanding of what you’re saying is taking your power back. I agree that it feels hurtful when people behave weird.
I think what I have learned is that emotional unavailability creates strange behavior, it doesn’t matter how long you’ve known the person, I agree that it’s there or it isn’t. Losing any investment, even if it’s “good behavior,” like, “I treated you with respect for however long, how come you didn’t do the same, huh?”? Feels wrong.
That’s why, for example in my small dealings with the “music business” the very second I discovered that it wasn’t about loving music, and that even as a casual player I could be manipulated by men, I resorted to putting things in writing and stating my expectations upfront through my website. Like “Hey, great to meetcha! Great, the idea of getting together! Read this, this is who I am, okay?” And if they don’t bother to even check out my website well, caveat emptor, you get what you pay for — I know that I’m not dealing with someone who cares about ME but wants some other hidden, unstated need met. To control, to feel superior, to get sex — whatever it is, it’s bound to be strange, not music.
As humans, not robots, feeling feelings can bring out the worst in us. Emotionally unavailable people tend to act strange when things get real, over time.
So. . .I’m not saying being so “hardcore” like I do out of necessity in certain situations in future, but as you go along in future, perhaps stating your expectations of getting to know someone upfront would help. That way, it’s more clear to you and them that their behavior is about THEM, not you.
Have you tried just asking guys upfront, kind of screening them, if you will, if they’ve ever “ghosted” someone they were dating? And stating that you feel very uncomfortable continuing to interact with someone who has done that in the past, and therefore might do it to you? And that you’d like a phone call, or last meal or whatever if they don’t want to see you anymore?
I guess I’m trying to say in a rather longwinded way, don’t just “expect” things, good behavior or whatever of people you just met. Find some way, however awkwardly, to state your needs, wishes and desires, to own them. Don’t make others responsible for your feelings — people you don’t know, who don’t know you. That’s a setup for perpetual pain, especially if you continue to “date” online men and otherwise complete strangers you and no one you know has met previously.
It’s been clumsy for me to navigate social relationships with a sense of self (e.g. not be so pleasing, to be say, disagreeable at times if only to show different sides of my personality and not seem “perfect” — doesn’t exist!) but eventually well worth the journey. I don’t go by “rules” of “respect” any more, just to be “agreeable” and “nice” and expect the same back from people who really, truly, can’t give that to me.
Based on what we’re talking about relative to the topic Natalie opened — being automatically, as if on autopilot, “pleasing” to people is a NO — some discernment and detective work about the situations we find ourselves in with what types of people is necessary as well. It’s like, don’t bend over backwards to be any kind of way with new folks, suss ’em out with due dilligence. That way, we’re not so taken aback by strange behavior, maybe, and not expecting something not in keeping with the (awful) truth of who that person truly is just because we were “so nice to them”
miss priscilla,
i see where you coming from. sometimes it actually takes great courage to politely and calmly explain to someone that their behaviour was not acceptable to you , regardless of what they do with that information.
i don’t believe you have ulterior motives of trying to keep connected in a situation that doesn’t work for you. i struggle a lot with that myself. think nat has a post about how some of us prefer radio silence over vulnerability. we’re more likely to go the route of just abruptly “cutting everyone off” , but as with anything it’s not the action itself that makes anything unhealthy but the intention about it. i think if your intentions are in order, do what what feels right to you.
seems you value manners which is why his behaviour bothered you. you can recognise that not everyone rolls with manners and they are different to you but i get that part of staying true to your good manners would be letting someone know why you’re not talking to them anymore and not just hinting. but if you don’t really give a shoot about being well mannered to people who aren’t well mannered to you that’s fine too! just check your intentions either way.
Hell yeah!
What the hell? I feel like I am going crazy here, when people on here are saying “just chill out, let it go, what’s the big deal about him not getting back to you?”. It was 5 dates, if a grown adult can’t tell someone they are just not interested after 5 dates, then I pretty much can guarantee they are going to have issues in communicating in an actual relationship.
Ah it’s called manners, plain and simple.
MUA married unavailable man, the very worst type of man to be involved with, believe me, three years on and I still bare the scars
I have been reading through these posts recently because a failed relationship has been brought back into my face because I have to see this person fairly often now. I did avoid any place where he would be for several months after he stood me up and then ignored me. Yes, his behavior was hot and cold, yes I was an idiot to fall for him and YES!!! I know that now, but as Coach Corey Wayne says on his video coaching website (for men), “attraction is not an option.” We are attracted to who we are attracted to and that is mostly out of our control. (Coach Corey’s videos are really excellent for men and women.)
Anyway, since coming back into our social circle at the request of a mutual friend who kept insisting that I should move on and move past this – I have seen this ex-interest behaving as tho he had swallowed a porcupine, very emotionally distraught and beaten down. He was not the same man I saw last August, strong and confident and happy. This was a broken man. We have been reasonably friendly and he has even *sort of* apologized but not really directly. Slowly, in the last two weeks he has gotten his confidence back and now seems alot more stronger and – well, now he is back to his old ways of ignoring me and acting like I don’t exist. Sometimes I like you, sometimes I ignore you. Come close, go away, I adore you, I don’t see you. Good times.
The whole thing is incredibly sad to me because he won’t communicate with me and yet we have this painful history that has never been acknowledged by him, but definitely has been felt by everyone around us. All our mutual friends had to deal with the fallout and the loss – except, he has never spoken to me about it directly or honestly. It’s a false truce really, and he is still trying to control the strings on the whole situation, and me I guess. I really don’t know how you can care about someone and then just ignore them like that, in front of others who know you both very well. Incredibly sad and dysfunctional.
But I am learning as I go and am a better person for it. Thanks BR and all who share !
Orange Sun, your story is my story. I finally ended things with my EUM in September because I met someone I felt I could truly have a relationship with. My EUM is like a drug to an addict and I knew he had the potential to mess things up with my new guy. By the way I have known him for 2.5 years and involved for one. I went no contact…I have tried to before but this time I really did it. I unfriended him/blocked on social media, my phone — but he somehow managed to contact me during a time things were not going well with my new man, who, also proved to be emotionally unavailable for an entirely different reason. My EUM started a conversation with me about something I am involved with in our town (we literally live down the street from each other). I told him I loved him back in the late spring; he said he could not reciprocate but was glad I told him. Anyway, not knowing I had moved on he told me how much he missed me, was depressed, didn’t know why he was messed up, that he has never felt this way about anyone else, all these things — we had a heart to heart conversation and he asked me to please go out to dinner with him. I did not want to hurt him by telling him I was seeing someone new but I eventually had to and that I could not see him. He told me how much he missed me. I told him I still loved him; when I love someone it doesn’t go away and I cared, I would check in on him (he has a history of depression).
New man ends things and I feel like a fool for not seeing the EUM red flags and guess who shows up but old EUM. I told him I had broken up with my new guy. Takes me to dinner, we talk about all of our problems, everything seems great…we make love and afterward he tells me he loves me. “Did you hear me? I said I love you.” Of course I said I love you too — I do. We see each other a day later, amazing — make plans to see each other and he sends me a text telling me he is in pain, depressed, something happened at work but it is also everything in his life, he can’t see me for our date, will explain tomorrow but is sad and going to bed. Since I live down the street from him, looks like part of this was him getting in a car accident when he uses his car heavily for work. I know he has some sort of mental health diagnosis…I am a RN (read: doormat caregiver for the hurt and sick).
Anyway, he never explained and left me to worry about him and suffer through my own shit over the Xmas holiday. Haven’t heard from him since New Years Day.
I have had a major epiphany being left basically by two men at the same time. I have childhood issues like Nat — likely most of you do too. I realized though that I cannot repeat the old childhood pattern of love anymore. I see I replay the abusive and neglectful dynamics of my childhood out with men. We CAN stop. Your “little voice” tells us when something is wrong — the red flags are usually there fairly early on but for people like us, desperate for love, we ignore, rantionalize — try to earn love. We try to meet other people’s needs without thinking of whether the other person is considering our needs, never mind meeting them.
My EUM will be back but I am hoping to be strong and stay away. Yes, you can love someone unhealthy but it doesn’t mean you need to “be” with them. I am ready for healthy love and a man who can meet my needs vs. using me as a counselor, teddy bear, or drug. Thank God I have finally said no to this pattern — I have wasted 13 years since my divorce on the wrong men!! It is sad because my exH was not the one for me; I left looking for a true heart connection never imagining 13 years later I would still be alone and heartbroken. Say NO to these guys with me…if it is not right in the beginning, if you feel worried, scared, uneasy, things don’t feel right or make sense — as Nat said — WALK AWAY!! I will be in the future. I am almost 50 and don’t have time to waste anymore. I want a partner not another patient/client to nurse back to health.
Wheatfields, my comment below was actually meant for you not Orange Sun.
Hi Elgie R,
Think you misunderstand me, I just don’t want to spend any more time thinking about this guy. That’s why I want to resolve things in my own mind by ending any contact with him in my own way.
I wouldn’t find it acceptable for him to suddenly ‘re-discover’ me in a few weeks time after I’d ‘chilled out’ and not contacted him. No, I don’t want someone who is duplicitous, ‘blows hot and cold’, changes his mind after leading people on, etc. Absolutely not.
…our very wise and very ancient grandad Lao Tzu once said
“Silence is a source of great Strength”.
He is still right. ;o)
Michelle, I totally see where you are coming from its rude and disrespectful to disappear with no explanation, Miss Pricilla and ElgieR would you disappear on someone after 5 dates without any explanation ? Whether it be a potential date or a new friend you dont behave like that, well not in my world, as for sending the text, I would think long and hard about whether you send it, iv done it in the past to make myself feel better, but if they dont reply it will hurt … good luck to you x
Hi Catwestfield,
Thanks for your words of encouragement. Glad I’m not the only one on here to think that it is really unacceptable to simply disappear into the ether after dating someone for weeks. Yeah, I know we weren’t going out for years and engaged or anything but it’s still not on to treat anyone that way (ever). I certainly wouldn’t. I don’t think respect, communication, grown-up behaviour (or basic good manners) should be too much to ask for from anyone. Call me crazy………..
Cheers Cat. 🙂
Q: would you disappear on someone after 5 dates without any explanation?
A: Weel,Yes, absolutely.
Catwesterfield, I’m loving that moniker btw, it’s like, is that a cat? Named “westerfield”? Or is it short for Catherine W. . . .so ambiguous, love it.
But let me explain, however it might be kind of a struggle to make it understandable.
I think it has to do with the idea of the “Circle of Trust” (COT) concept Natalie mentions. See, I got out of the (unconscious) habit of letting new people/men into my COT too easily and/or too quickly. Especially on the sexual/attraction side, there’s a tendency to trust people more and, perhaps, prematurely, due to the sex.
So, let’s say it’s been 5 dates or less and I’ve experienced something that makes the person seem even SLIGHTLY untrustworthy or dangerous or emotionally unavailable or whatever. Remember, at this point the person is at the outer rim of the COT, not much more of an acquaintance. To be clear, I’m not talking about dumping someone for superficial reasons, it has to be Code Red behavior that rears its ugly head early on if, thank goodness I’m paying attention and not “giving the benefit of a doubt.”
Yes, I drop them and have, with no further explanation or contact — especially if they have said or done something that REALLY sets off the alarm bells, such as they are married or dangerous or crazy or something.
Also, I read something a while ago *on a dating site no less* — that stated that in the current culture it’s perfectly acceptable to do “the fade out” with someone you have been “dating” under 6 months, or perhaps dump with a brief text or email. Between 6 mo- 1 year, it’s a phone call. Only in an established relationship with some level of commitment is there a “last meal” or maybe”breakup sex” or whatever, otherwise facing them in person.
Now. I find that concept positively horrifying. But I accept it as The Way Things Are and have experienced same. Based on the kind of second part of the original topic Natalie set forth, I think there are different *ways* to break up with dignity. It’s counterintuitive, yes, but sometimes the dignified, no-drama way out is to. . .just. . .disappear.
I personally don’t believe in being polite or having manners at all costs — that’s very similar to people-pleasing, to me.
Also, I’m looking for how does the person handle conflict. Conflict is the opposite of people pleasing — does he try to bully or sweet talk me out of my opinions? How does he act when I disagree with him on something, however trivial? Does he *expect me to be a people pleaser*?
Briefly, following all the ideas expressed above, recently (like last week) I had to get rid of someone I was inclined to like and to be open to beginning the process of becoming close — had I not been EXTREMELY aware of small things from the very beginning. Yes, I could have given him the benefit of a doubt for the argument/power struggle we had over something small, in fact, very trivial on it’s face. But when I tuned in to my feelings of disturbance about the incident, I recognized a tendency(probably from childhood) to be Miss Go-Along — to please, to be sort of steamrolled into pleasing, rather than to at least take the OPTION of negotiating equally to make my feelings, opinions and needs known. Steamrolling BACK, if you will.
So. . .it’s complicated, and I hate seeming like I’m on guys sides on this one such as what happened to Michelle. . .but I do think that women in general right from the “dating” stage are more inclined to be pleasing and pleasant to get in or stay in a relationship. Men tend not to do that, and I think these types of details are apparent from the very beginning.
Yep.
Liking this comment, misspriscilla.
In my view, the “fade out” is a form of non-verbal communication, and non-verbal communication is really the strongest way we humans convey lots of subtle information. I have no issues with the fade-out. I don’t think it is rude, I think it is very much human nature. Whereas verbal communication is often VERY rude.
Regardless of whether rejection is dealt to us verbally or via a fade-out, being vulnerable means we have to learn how to handle rejection….especially rejection by someone we like. But for those of you who swear to want words, if on date number three or five or ten, your date says to you at the end of the night – “I enjoyed our date, but I will not be calling you anymore after tonight. I will not text you anymore and I will not respond to your texts. You are very nice but you are not the one for me.” You are saying that would make you feel better than a fade-out? That would leave you feeling less confused and less rejected? Well…ok then. I think it would result in even more of a tailspin… feeling that he “should have known” on date number one. But maybe he allows for more dates in his discovery period than you do. We are not the same. Or are there still more rules on *how* he has to verbalize the rejection?
My point here is that what hurts is Being Rejected. No matter how the rejection is dealt out, we will still feel its’ sting.
Elgie R,
Guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. I’ve just sent my message to the man-turd and I feel SO much better already. Whatever his response (or lack of response), I can actually (even physically) feel I’ve unburdened myself of his duplicitous BS. I’ve deleted all of the many texts he sent me as well. Ah, sweet relief. I’m free.
I really don’t feel the ‘sting of rejection’ (and hell yes, I honestly would have preferred him to be completely up-front with me from the beginning, even if he had rejected me). It’s the wasting of my time and energy coupled with the lack of communication (and thereby the lack of respect for me as a fellow human being) that made me feel hurt and angry. As for the rest of it, who cares? I’m done with this unfortunate episode. I’m done with him. It feels GREAT. 🙂
Hi Wheatfields,
It is awful when people are emotionally manipulative, sending conflicting signals, seeming to open up (thereby ‘sucking you back in’), then quickly putting up walls so you feel like you’re ‘back to square one’ again……. It’s all very exhausting for the person trying to decipher this sort of behaviour. It is toxic.
It is unfortunate when you have to cross paths with a person like that, it can feel like salt being poured into an old wound. You think about the warm feelings and happy memories you may have had in the past and you hold on to those. But you must try to also remember how much pain this man has caused you through his distance and coldness, in spite of any emotional intimacy you may have shared with him in the past. I think it probably is a good idea to avoid contact with him and your mutual circle as much as you can as it really seems to be causing a lot of conflict and pain for you. I hope you are able to step away a bit, be kind to yourself and heal again over time.
Good luck and best wishes. M
Hi Michele,
Exact same thing happened to me(5 dates, everything seemed to be going great). Then he stopped contacting. I was not hurt or sad. People change their minds. However, I did sent him text: Hi, hope you are doing well. I have not heard from you. If you are not interested anymore – it is ok but would be nice to know. He replied: i was cool girl and all but just was not feeling it. I did it because next time he should know/have some decency to let the other person know. Lets not make excuses for these grown a.. men who cannot be straight up. Be nice to yourself, be nice to your girlfriends.
Cheers!
The question is, will they learn from it and treat the next person any better? I don’t believe they will. They’ll ghost because it’s easier than acknowledging the truth, because it’s lazy, because there are no real consequences even if they get called out on it from time to time.
It’s rude of course, but I can’t see how anyone who would behave that way in the first place would suddenly change and become respectful.
Crystal, whether they learn from it or not is irrelevant. Whether they reply or not doesn’t matter. Michelle feels the need to send a message and let him know that his behaviour is unacceptable and she will not be entertaining him any longer. Not now. Not in 6 months time. Not in 6 years time. She’s explicitly letting him know that this door is now closed, never to be opened again.
Michelle, I can totally relate! I have been in the dating game for too long now and it’s so frustrating as a reasonable, young woman trying to deal with unreasonable men. When you’re grown/mature and you know what you need/want in a man, and keep meeting guys who f**k around and play dumb games, it’s a massive waste of time, and our time is very precious.
If we walked around telling guys upfront what we want and don’t want from our interactions with them (as another lady suggested earlier), then we’d be labelled as desperate, or a nutjob. The whole point of dating is to learn and discover info about the other party, but when people behave suspect like this guy has, it undermines the entire process, and becomes a waste of the other party’s time, money and effort thus far. If he had any doubts or reservations about his compatibility with Michelle, he would’ve known by date 2 or 3 (at least) and could’ve done the polite thing and explained that to her before disappearing in the ether.
By sending this text, she’s letting him know that she’s someone who’s time and feelings won’t be toyed with, and I think that’s OK under the circumstances.
Michelle needs to do what works for Michelle. Since she isn’t (and won’t be) involved with this guy anymore there’s no risk of perpetuating a bad situation. If Michelle had a pattern of needing to air all her grievances at the end of a relationship, that would be cause for concern.
I see no harm in calling a spade a spade. If she wants to tell the guy off for the pleasure of it, I say “go for it” as long as she knows her reason is just to let him know he was out of line and she can let it go with just the one text.
Speaking in general terms and not directly about Michelle’s situation, the only problem is if you don’t know your motives. The need to “fix” others is very closely related to the need to “please” others. Both are about control. The need to always have the last word is also about control. The need for closure can lead to all kinds of post-relationship trouble. If any of these motives are involved, then she should not send the text.
MMMM. . .If we walked around telling guys upfront what we want and don’t want from our interactions with them (as another lady suggested earlier), then we’d be labelled as desperate, or a nutjob TO. . . could’ve done the polite thing and explained
So, I’m seeing and feeling contradictions in the ideas expressed above. It’s not the statement, it’s the experience of it in real life that I think Rachel pointed out/identified. It’s the conflicting things that are going on with dealing with these people and situations. Going back to the original stuff Natalie was saying, it’s about the messes involved with people pleasing vs. dignity.
To clarify, I’m not referencing stating needs, wants and desires in a desperate, nutjobby sort of way. Or even dictatorial (you will do this and I will do that). It’s more like boundaries, needs, desires, hopes, wishes along the discovery phase that dating is “supposed” to be, without the expectation of “politeness” (a.k.a. “pleasing”) as a social construct wrapping things all up in a neat package.
An adult discussion of needs, wants and desires in a “feminine” way that is natural and even playful at times is what I mean. Like, “I’m looking for a man who is consistent over time in a realistic way that works for both of us. Could you not text me every day if you can’t see yourself doing so for the next 5 years, if we’re still in each other’s lives? I don’t feel comfortable responding to your texts daily, as I don’t really know you. Daily texting is more like being in a relationship, and we are not there yet.”
This kind of stuff is about whether a persons words and deeds match, what kind of person is he. For me, it’s rather direct, but I realize my *style* doesn’t work for everyone. I’m saying, develop *your own style* and don’t be exempt from being a grown woman who asks for things, just to avoid a very unfair and unreasonable perception of being a “nutjob” or “needy” for 1) knowing what you want and 2) asking for it.
Uhhh, not saying it’s just Rachel, but really, who in our lives previously made us feel crazy for stating preferences and having boundaries with strange men? It’s worth thinking through and perhaps changing how we present ourselves and interact == not people pleasing. Which, btw, is a way of controlling outcomes — it seems benevolent, to be “nice” but isn’t, really.
Look — guys in the types of situations we are all referencing here on our experiences aren’t going to be polite. They want sex or don’t, they want a relationship or don’t. They play games or don’t. Etcetera. It’s WOMEN primarily, who are expected to “act nice.” Most men aren’t going to deny or cover up their needs, motives, or behaviors just to be a people pleaser. They just. . .yeah, disappear without a word.
And actually? I think that’s fair, as long as I’m not in pleaser mode — which is trading my good graces in the hopes that they will be decent in return.
Further? I believe that the person IS telling us and sending a very clear message — just not the way we would like to receive it b/c. . .we. Didn’t. ASK! And, that person is under no compunction to “be polite.” He’s definitely telling us, just not in words, but by actions we don’t happen to like!
So, I think at least casually mention — “hey, it’s so great to have met you! We’re just getting to know each other (put arms around his neck) and I’m having a great time as friends so far (gently squeezing his hand). I’d love a (call, text, email, kiss on the cheek goodbye, rather) rather than just disappearing on me. I’ll definitely do the same, okay? (kiss goodnite)”
A person who can’t do that, who can’t have a good discussion early on about adult topics is probably emotionally unavailable either *us* b/c we can’t/won’t express our needs and/or *them* b/c he can’t/won’t meet them. And it’s those we need to weed out early and not waste time, heart and expectations.
I fully hear you misspriscilla! 🙂
Yeah, there are different means of expressing your needs/desires to your date in a way that doesn’t feel like you’re bludgeoning them to death with your expectations. I guess we’d need to assess it on a case-by-case basis and see how receptive (or not) a guy would be to such a conversation. If a guy was to ask me what I’m looking for in a mate/relationship (as I’m often asked on dates), then that would be my queue to initiate that discussion in a casual way.
The problem is, I’ve always been quite blunt and very vocal about what I want and don’t want. And this hasn’t always had the desired effect! So I’ve learned to temper my delivery as I’ve gotten older, and I try to let the conversation happen organically now.
You’re right, it’s important that us women conduct ourselves in ways which are authentic to WHO we are as individuals. And ways which we also feel comfortable with.
Your suggested techniques sound interesting, but personally, I wouldn’t feel comfortable with it. I’m not one for manipulation, fawning or sycophantic behaviour. It doesn’t come naturally to me, and it’s just seems like an underhanded tactic of gaining the upper hand – by using your feminine charms to get what you want. If I have to employ stroking of hands and behaving flirty/coy, then I’m not really being authentic to me.
“I think that’s fair, as long as I’m not in pleaser mode — which is trading my good graces in the hopes that they will be decent in return.”
Funny, you said this because your suggested approach smacks of people pleasing to me… If I can’t have an honest, level, adult conversation with a guy (without having to blow smoke up his arse), then he’s clearly not the one for me.
Whatever method works for you is all that matters in the end, but you have to be true to yourself throughout the process.
*deep breath for deep waters* — Rachel, this is all so hard for me to articulate but I feel like what I was trying to convey is understood. I think I have mentioned that I too am struggling with the delivery aspect of things — even on a forum such as this. So, being even *partially* understood feels great to me.
Isn’t that what we’re all here for, even with our men, to take the risk of struggling to be heard and understood? And try and fail and try and fail, gaining ground with each step? That to me is the opposite of people pleasing, the authentic will to make mistakes that intimacy inevitably will bring, and not the pre-packaged pleasing of striving for perfection and harmony at all times and all costs.
On the point of feminine charm vs. manipulation — yeah, I get that, and I can see how what I was saying came off that way b/c it’s very hard to imagine it otherwise.
It’s part of what I struggle with as well b/c I have found that most men take directness from a woman as dealing with a man. I have found that I as well as the man need physical touch and some form of intimacy to soften the blow of topics — it makes the situation less threatening for them. . .and me, I was surprised to find this out as I go along.
For me, being some form of touchy-feely with the man I am with or want to be with is necessary to distinguish the interaction from “friendship” and “business.” That way it’s clear to me when lines are being blurred when I have to be a hard negotiator for business reasons (e.g. making sure I get paid on time for freelance work) and the guy is trying to sweet talk me into rolling over. It’s like, I save my sweet talk for my lovers, only. Further, I don’t want intimacy to be reduced to a contract or a transaction that is ironclad and absolute, the way it is in business. Intimacy is fluid and for the growth of both partners as each will change over time. People pleasing keeps the relationship static, I think b/c you are doing a set thing for a set response.
It’s kind of like, pleasing vs. establishing intimacy. For me personally, I found out accidentally that I want to show my femininity to my partner and ONLY to him — not to be a random people pleaser but so that we both know what the relationship is about, that only HE gets certain aspects of me.
That’s why I’m learning to be very selective about who I let come close. Can you imagine the power that man would have, were he to abuse the fact that I’ve sincerely allowed true intimacy with him? It can happen, and has — I got shocked into making myself learn the difference and be more careful. Establishing intimacy isn’t for *every man you meet* and *probably NOT online and through texts etc.*
I’ve literally seen men physically tense up as if ready to fight or flee in adult conversations, vs. if I say THE SAME THINGS in a soft voice with my arms around him or stroking his arm — different. That’s assuming that the “relationship” has progressed to that point.
It’s weird — very hard to articulate, very distinct from feminine manipulation — and very new to me, and, I imagine many.
Glad to have had the opportunity to process.
I have a hard time with understanding the fact that the EUP knowingly knows what he is doing yet will continue treating meme the same and say, I love you. If you knowingly know you are behaving in such a way and you choose not to do anything about it it is like a slap in the face. So my thing is, how come they can get away with it. So they know what there doing, is it they can’t consciously deal with it and take responsibility. Because in the book sometimes it sais that they are unable to do certain things or it is done unconsciously it’s confusing at times.It’s like sometimes they know and other timesthey don’t have a clue.
My use of MUA was in error. I intended to use EUM, but as Catwesterfield and Elgie R. said- both apply. I also should have said “when he leaves he takes the emotional content of my heart with him”; the additional metaphor/allegory was not clean writing. I included how I feel when I am with him because that was the self inquiry Natalie suggested.
Wheatfields and Michele: while you were not addressing me I appreciate your comments. My therapist actually raises her hands, one is palm out for “stay back” and with the other she beckons the “come here” gesture. She said that has to be physically, emotionally and spiritually exhausting for me to accommodate his approximately 2 week cycle.
He is dramatic, dynamic and intense. And, as the MJB song “No More Drama” begins and ends: “I’m so tired….”
“Attraction is not an option.” I so strongly buy into that. If it was an option I would not be 15 months into this mess.
MillionReasons,
You need to break it off now and start No Contact. Then you can start moving forward and out of this mess. Without NC you will just stay in the same cycle. If you communication with him at all you will get pulled right back in.
The only reason things are great when you are together is because, by mutual agreement, you don’t address the problems in your relationship. And you both know why. It’s because you can’t. The relationship is a hopeless dead-end. It can’t be fixed. It either has to end or continue on in its dysfunctional and destructive form. It’s not love, affection or even attraction that is fueling this temporary happiness when you are together. It is the relief from the pain you feel the rest of the time. It’s the denial of the reality that your relationship sucks and you are being used.
Find the strength to end it and get your life and your self back.
Men are just cowards…. end of
Hi Cat,
Yes, they are (most anyway). Men can be very physically strong and ‘brave’ in that sense, but when it comes to women’s (or even their own) feelings they’ll ‘run for their lives’ before they’ll deal with any of that.
Evening ladies — THANK YOU all. I have spent months reading posts to try and confirm that I have not lost my mind. I feel I am at the crossroads with my EU AC of a man. Btw, he’s not married but has a GF. So yeah, I have sort of been the OW off and on for 8 years. We have not slept together but he has told me that he truly has feelings for me and we are not allowed to fall in love or stalk eachother if we get physical. Wtf? That floored me. Rules have just been thrown into our friendship? We have been best friends for those many years btw. He is very charming, caring, and handsome. He also has some issues that he has spoken to me about and I can see where some of his behavior would be linked to this. My issue is how pissed off I get when he will not text me back. I ask him if he can help me fix a broken pipe or show me how to change the oil in my lawn mower , and he won’t reply. He works 15 hour shifts a lot and is toasted — he works here but his g/f and house are 4 hours away. I’m dealing with crumbs from him as far as a friendship , and his constant future faking with me and flirting starts up whenever he hasn’t heard from me in awhile. I honestly feel like a weight has been lifted when he is not around — I love him but I cannot change him and he will never leave her. I have people pleased the crap outta this guy for years! Dropped everything for him — left work to help him when he was sick. when I got into an accident, where was he? He sure as heck wasn’t next to my bed. The last time I talked to him, he complimented me on how amazing I looked (I’ve lost a lot of weight since accident). He flirted like crazy, and said he would have to stop by and see me “wink wink”. I made his favorite dinner, I was ready… he never showed up. Sadly he does it quite a bit…but this man is like a drug and I don’t know how to quit him. All I ever have known is how to make him happy since he’s very unhappy with his g/f. I am an ego boost for him.. always positive … I am broken. So broken. I cannot keep doing this and fear NC will just hurt me more when he guilts me into the reason behind NC. Annnnnny suggestions. Much luv.
Orange, then you need to do like any good addict and ask a Higher Power to relieve you of this bondage, you are powerless over it and you believe that a Higher Power can restore you to sanity. And, you turn your will and your life over to It. It really can work.
In all truth, until I can understand my own background story and why I keep pursuing the same man over and over – same man, different names and appearances, if you see what I mean – then I will not stop doing this. Same damn man, but different names, ages and locations. Damn it ! I act like I have no idea how this happens but it is my childhood with my cruel and abusive/neglectful father. Ok, I get it. This last man has made me cry the last few days and I feel overwhelmed with a tidal wave of emotion as I look past him and see my childhood, and the same pain I feel now is what I felt then. It’s possible he also struggles with similar feelings from his own childhood because I believe that people we are attracted to are our mirrors, these intimate partners reflect something very deep in us. He is reflecting my painful early life, and maybe I am a sort of a trigger for him in his own abused childhood. It seems likely, but I really don’t know. My feelings of helplessness around his behavior make me believe that it is something from his own childhood and victimization with his mother (I guess) and that’s why nothing I do can change how he perceives me, and I can never “win” and be loved by him. He isn’t even really interacting with me, just with a weird ghost of his childhood through me.
Does that make sense? I have really been grieving this situation and loss of what could have been a really potentially healing experience for both of us if he had chosen to talk to me about his feelings and experiences. What a powerful healing opportunity that could have been. I am healing but I can’t speak for what he is doing.
I will definitely stay away for now and just focus on taking care of myself and getting to know a couple of men I have been talking to and who seem open and interested in me. I need to let go of him in order to be present with them and the rest of my good life. Thank you all, awesome ladies – very healing comments on here.
Wheatfields,
Thank you for your honesty, your vulnerability and sharing your self reflection. This flavour of grieving is not linear. The healing only comes in jagged peaks of granite. But it comes?
I liken this healing and grief to pedaling my bike out of a small town called Jackson Hole. I left my very cheap hotel just as the sun was trying to warm the cold morning. I was so cold and feeling so alone on my bike. Then as I kept pedaling on through the morning, I got warm and started to notice the landscape. And then suddenly, I mean mind blowingly suddenly, I pedaled around a curve and there before me was The Grand Teton Mountain range in all of it’s magnificence.
I choose to believe that these jagged, hard and cold ridges of our shared grief will give us a magnificent view…. if we keeping pedaling together and lift our heads.
Thank you to everyone who continues to help me.
OrangeSun, your story was mine. And you’re right, he’s a drug u feel u can’t quit, & it leaves u feeling broken. Read your own words, over & over. This is not a relationship that’s adding to your life in any positive way, it’s poisoning your spirit and breaking u. You already know u need to do no contact to break this addiction, heal, and regain your self-esteem & self-respect. And I get why you’re concerned about how he’ll react or may try to press for reasons. For me it was part of a people pleasing co-dependent personality to be more concerned about what he’d think of me or how he’d react than my own needs. But bottom line, this is a grown man who’s treating u the way he wants to, regardless of nice words or good intentions. Not for u to fix him, he’s showing u what he’s prepared to give to this relationship by his actions (and inactions). And it’s crap, & u know u deserve so much better. In trying to talk things through with my EUM, he said he keeps everyone at a distance. That was his answer, “don’t take it personally, I treat everyone like that”. Blowing hot & cold (or disappearing) is a way to avoid that closeness, something I craved but with his abandonment issues scared the hell out of him & caused incredible anxiety & feeling out of control. Treating me so inconsistently was a way to control the temperature to right where he was comfortable & regulated. When it got too hot he’d blow real cold & completely ignore mea, & after awhile would turn up the heat. Repeat the cycle enough times & you’re up to your eyeballs in toxic sludge & it’s very hard to climb your way out of that. For me his response was completely void of empathy or willingness to even try to give an inch. It’s basically stepping in sh*t, & being told not to feel so bad about it because everyone else steps in sh*t too. Guess what? It’s still SH*T. But my head waa so disconnected from ME it took forever for me to realize this. My suggestion? Write him a letter & get all your reasons out there, just don’t expect a reply. It’s about u & your healing, your need for no contact, your saying you’re finally done with accepting his crumbs & crappy treatment. No need to be nasty but be honest. Sometimes raw honesty can be harsh, but it’s authentic & be clear how much this relationship has been so unhealthy for u. I did no contact for a good year before I sent that letter, & that space & distance really gave me clarity to understand my own part in our mutual dysfunction, boundaries I didn’t have at the time, & the treatment I chose to continue to accept from him. Some wouldn’t recommend giving him a letter, but I believe if u feel strongly u want to communicate that to him, u should. Writing is a way to convey it clearly & thoroughly, without him becoming defensive, steering the conversation in another direction, or weakening your resolve. Sometimes it makes sticking to no contact easier too, because you’re not thinking about if he’s confused as to why u pulled the plug. You expressed how much the relationship hurt u that he won’t be so inclined to try to draw u back in. Just understand that u don’t need his validation to walk away. You know what u need to do to heal yourself, and that’s 100% your job. You do that however u need to. You don’t need his agreement, his blessing, or his understanding to justify anything u feel or any choice u make. But for me, writing what I did was necessary. Trying to distance myself yet remain “friends” wasn’t working. I’d tried that & he just continued to trigger me, like a struggling addict walking into a bar of free booze. Sad that it had to be a complete break, but fitting for how pitifully broken I’d become. Ours was not an ordinary situation or relationship. It affected me in an extreme way and I needed that bridge burned. Ask yourself what you’d do if u weren’t afraid, and do that. Hugs to u.
GettingItRight,
I have read your words over and over. This applies especially to what you wrote about the inconsistent treatment, and the cycle. The past week turned out differently than I expected and he is currently trying, well, just trying. What in the world would I do if I wasn’t afraid? I’m still hooked and nowhere close to ready to find out.
Good day GettingItRight! I wanted to thank you for your post. I like many have been in a cookie cutter situation and your words have been so comforting. I see my EU once in awhile during the day so taking the steps to avoid him are tough. He plays games where he blows very cold but when he sees me, flirts like crazy with just his quick comments and actions. He used to communicate and text frequently – it was the highlight of my day but he got sucked into Twitter and Snapchat and now he is addicted to that. He has admitted to being an introvert and no matter what I try – I ask if he wants to get lunch, see a movie , etc he just withdraws and ignores texts. These men can be so poisonous and hurtful. All I want is 5 minutes to tell him how he is treating me but I can’t even see him for that long. I think the reason this has been so tough for me to let go of is because we fell for eachother so quickly, and really connected. I’ve never been so comfortable with a guy before like I was with him. Even my family likes him. Now I feel deflated and am struggling to avoid him and move on… any tips???
A brevity of things I’ve said previously adapted for your sich —
“Awwwwww, you’re having a hard time with your girlfriend, are you? Well, no more of me until no more of her. ‘Kay? Buh-bye, now. Now. Stop it, really, NOW!”
Not to be flip, but it really is that simple — I’ve done it in almost exactly those words. Guys/guy-friends, friends with no benefits yet, pre-cheaters and the otherwise attached think I’m joking when I put it to ’em like that, but I’m so not.
OrangeSun,
I feel for you! I tried to break it off with my EU ex several times before finally succeeding. It was an addiction: I’d say I was done with him, then I would decide we could chat/have lunch “just this one time”, then we’d end up back together. I couldn’t stop or control myself where he was concerned. It was only when I imposed no contact that I was able to take a serious look at myself and what I was doing to create my own hell. When we were together, I would always focus on him and what he was doing, thinking, feeling: all I did was try to please him. When I was alone I spent my time resenting him for not appreciating my efforts. I was screaming out the message that my needs, feelings and opinions weren’t important and then getting angry when he agreed with me!
A little background. We met at work and were friends for over a year before beginning our romantic/sexual relationship. During that first year he would occasionally mention going on “dates” which seemed perfectly normal for a single guy so I thought nothing of it. What he didn’t tell me was most of those dates were with the same woman. He’d been with her for several years but kept this little tidbit to himself. I spent 18 months as the OW letting him treat me like crap and pretending to be someone other than who I am in a vain attempt to please him and hang onto a relationship that was making me completely miserable.
NC was the only way to break this pattern. I spent the first few weeks completely obsessed. I thought about him and the relationship all the time, day and night. Then I started, slowly, to turn my thoughts to why I was so consumed by this man. It took about two months, but once I figured out what it was that kept me stuck (for me it is an inability to handle rejection, even when I am rejected by someone I don’t like or respect) I made surprising progress. I still have a long way to go, but I have finally beaten my addiction to Mr. EU.
Natalie, I wish I was a Star Wars fan (I only saw #1 when it premiered in the 70’s), but I remember Obie-wan Kenobi, who was everyone’s brilliant, sentient voice of reason.
You are my Obie-wan.
Your post made me smile and think, “God, I’m so glad that people pleasing crap is over for me.”
After two years of therapy, lots of intentional isolation, daily journaling and intense self reflection, I finally got it.
I realized the reason I kept attracting cheaters was because I was attracted to them.
I realized I could bitch forever about my lousy bevy of assclowns, narcissists and losers, but bitching and blaming wouldn’t heal me.
I realized that even if I could change one of them into a delightful dream partner, I’d soon get bored and feel so trapped, I’d run for it and never look back.
I finally realized that I was the common denominator in all of my disastrous romances…because I was as emotionally unavailable as any of my cheating lovers.
I picked rats who were likely to cheat, so when it ended I could play the poor, victimized martyr and get sympathy from friends and loved ones.
Then I connected that dot to the one that explained I was emotionally unavailable because I never thought I deserved love.
Then came the big, red jackpot dot: I never thought I deserved love because my parents treated me like a major inconvenience–I was a surprise, very unplanned pregnancy that occurred much later than their two carefully planned kids.
(flashback)
It was a fantastic Fourth of July party on the beach in Southern California. My parents were having a blast, tipsy on rum punches and the era’s new cocktail sensation: screwdrivers.
The moon glistened over the Pacific Ocean. The wind was warm and sultry.
Cue: stock footage of waves crashing on the beach, with fireworks exploding in the sky and reflecting in the moonlit water.
That’s how I happened.
Decades later, when news that Roe vs. Wade passed in the U.S. Supreme Court and made abortion legal, I was at my mom’s watching it with her on the evening news.
She chuckled and said, “You ought to be glad abortion wasn’t legal back when I was pregnant with you.”
(Gee, mom, sorry to wreck your carefully planned and organized life. I’ll try not to make any more trouble by becoming a classic people pleaser, always amusing you and never asking for anything special).
Once that big final dot exploded like a zit on a teenager, then and there I became my own mom, and I am freakin’ great at it.
I’m no longer attracted to users, abusers, slackers, chronic texters or self involved cheaters.
My ex, whom I used to think was the most beautiful, artistic, sophisticated woman I’d ever laid eyes on, was largely a product of my own fertile imagination.
Now I look back with clear eyes and see an ordinary, aging, unhappily married, neurotic woman with a never-ending, online cache of half-assed “romantic partners”–strangers she can seduce but never has to touch or be touched by.
That old line, “It’s not you it’s me,” we all have used to get out of lousy dates? Yeah, well, in my case it was me.
I’m learning how to become emotionally available by just being who I am and letting the chips fall where they may.
My friendships are few but wonderfully reciprocal and sincere, and maybe I will fall in love one day with a mentally healthy, fun person. Or maybe not. As long as I remain healthy, fairly sane and still like to have fun, I think I’ve got it covered.
Thanks, Natalie. You and Louise Hay are diamonds.
Hi Karen,
I’ve been reading Natalie’s blog for over 10 months as well as her books and this is the first time I’ve posted. But your comment spoke to me in a pivotal way. It was as if you were speaking to me. My story is SO similar to yours. My mom became pregnant at the age of 16 and married my dad (they are still married). I became very aware I was a thorn in her side. I’m an only child, but of course would ask for a sibling. Her comment was, “After having you, there was no way I was going to have anymore.” Wow, I didn’t realize how awful I was. Like you, I never felt like I had enough value to be “worthy” of loving relationships. I was pretty much left alone growing up and learned to take care of my own needs. But of course I wanted my mother’s approval. My relationship with her has waxed and waned through the years, but with the help of this blog and therapy, I’m at peace with it and have learned to parent myself.
One of the comments that hit me like a Mack truck was, “I picked rats who were likely to cheat, so when it ended I could play the poor, victimized martyr and get sympathy from friends and loved one.” WOW!!! It was like a light bulb went off. I have spent 20 years with various forms of assclown, douche bag, narcissists who have addiction issues. It’s a tough pill to swallow to come to the realization this was one of the reasons I kept repeating my pattern. Then it hit me, this was my way of “feeling special.” Natalie wrote a blog about this very topic, how we make ourselves feel special even if it isn’t special-Inverted Narcissism.
The other comment that stuck out to me was, “My ex, whom I used to thing was the most beautiful, artistic, sophisticated woman I’d ever laid eyes on, was largely a product of my own fertile imagination. Now I look back with clear eyes and see an ordinary, aging, unhappily……..”. The epiphany relationship ended 10 months ago, which was how I found BR. After reading your comment, I think the rose tinted glasses FINALLY came off. I see him as the ordinary, boring, assclown, man child he really is. I’ve spent a lot time with ruminating thoughts of how I wanted his validation after spending almost 2 years people pleasing my way to try and attain the “relationship I thought I deserved.” I raised his kids, plus still cared for mine, I took care of his demented mother who lived with him, I took care of his dogs, cleaned his house, cooked, and did laundry. Now my thoughts have shifted to, “why do I want validation from an ordinary assclown who used me?” I have had absolutely no contact with him since I ended the relationship. I have blocked him from my phone and blocked him on all social media. He has made 1 attempt to get my attention on Facebook (I didn’t take the bait). He wrote me a letter about a month ago to let me know his mother had passed away and to thank me for all the care I provided to her and his boys. Gee, you were so thankful for me running your household that you were having a relationship with a co-worker the whole time???
I’m still healing the wounds from both my past and present. I’m stronger, I’m still standing. But for the first time in 42 years, I value myself.
So thank you, Karen, for such an eye opening post. And of course a thank you to Natalie for her wonderful blog and books.
@Wheat and GettingItRight — thank you so much , you have NO idea of how relieved I felt when I read your replies. I almost cried in my coffee. This guy has strung me along for so long and I never caught on to his games because I never knew that someone like this could exist and treat me so horribly. I’m a trusting, caring and giving person. The other issue which I forgot to mention is that with our jobs, we often see eachother in passing every so often. I cannot escape him even which means if I do go Nc, he knows he can corner me in person and ask me what’s going on. I recall once that I had just returned from a trip. I hadn’t answered anyone’s texts or calls, I was unpacking. Well he called and texted numerous times. When I didn’t respond he found me and guilted me “why didn’t you respond , where were u?” Seriously?? BUT I am not allowed to do that with him. He just doesn’t answer. He blows hot to keep me roped in, or when he needs something. I should clarify that no we have not had sex but we have come very close on numerous occasions and he has stopped. I often wonder if he feels guilty or if he just wants to make sure he doesn’t eff up our friendship (the very blurred line friendship). I am strong, but this man is a powerful drug. I’m going to save your responses and read them when i feel weak. I’m also going NC ad it’s going to be very tough. I see things I want to tell him about, or something happens during a basketball game with a team we like and I want to share it …. it’s so sad to think he has driven me into the ground and he doesn’t see it. I don’t know what to believe when he says he really has feelings for me… is he honest , but can’t do anything because of his g/f? At this point I want out… I’m mentally done. My health can’t take it anymore. I’ll check back in for sanity sake. Hugs to u guys, thank u!
OrangeSun, I also replied to your earlier post but I feel your pain with doing NC with a coworker. It’s tough when you don’t know when you will unexpectedly bump into this person. I don’t know how much you have to interact as part of your work, but I would make it clear to him that you will have no conversations that are not work-related. If you’re worried about a guilt trip or think you won’t be able to follow through if you talk in person, send a text or email instead. That’s what I had to do. Tell him he’s not allowed to call or text and stick to your guns. If he does contact you, ignore him. Don’t feel bad about setting the rules. He’s been setting rules all along.
As for his having feelings for you. I’m sure he does: When he’s with you. Don’t be deceived or flattered by it. When he’s with another woman, I’m sure he has “feelings” for her too. This outta sight-outta mind thing is a sign of emotional immaturity. Any true feelings would translate into some semblance of decency. Respect and empathy are two feelings he does not have for you.
I know I’m making it sound a lot easier than it is. I was so turned around by Mr. EU that I stayed with him for three months after he (very coldly) made it clear that I was only a booty call. It takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of time, but you CAN do this.
Love this article because it is truly my behavior. I do journal and have made some strides toward boundaries and whatnot. I continue to try to be a friend to the man that has hurt me over and over again. And even when I thought it was working after a night of mediation and a good talk with him, I received a text when I got home that said “I really want to F— you.” It was so disappointing but not unexpected. So….I have regrouped and am trying to move forward knowing that I have to let the “friendship” go. And when I look back at journal entries from years back, his escapades with other women and the late night phone calls to come service him remind me why I need to let go. I have always believed that love negates hate. But with this man, there really wasn’t ever love…just lust. Thanks for the spot on article.
@Stephanie – u nailed it! Mine was so sneaky when we first met. He didn’t mention a g/f and so I thought I was in the clear. We would flirt all the time, talk o the phone for hours but he would never go on an official date date. One morning I got a call from him, and he said he had to be honest. Wham! Now it all made sense… but let’s see, it’s been years and he’s still with her and he’s not happy. I’ve met her. I’ve been around her face to face and she is the complete opposite of me in every aspect. I feel that’s another reason why he is drawn to me. BUt all I do is stroke his ego and be that people pleaser. What do I get out of it, and what have I gotten from it? I used to think he rejuvenated my self esteem, but sadly no. I will say that almost during last year because of the stress he put on me, has made me change my lifestyle. Eating/drinking/exercise etc.. it’s all different and I look great and feel good. He notices , and comments… does he know that with his mental torment he caused that I almost died? Nope. And I don’t think I will tell him. What good would it do. I’m better than that… today I really reflected on why I am drawn to him. Why do I always try to make him happy and not rock the boat… I don’t even dare ask him how work is because he gets mad. God forbid u ask what hours he is working he claims right up. I found that out when I first met him. He only gives as much information as he has to. The other side of the coin, he is caring, supportive, and thankful in different situations. I also know how weak and sad he is deep down because of things in his life. I know I cannot fix his things that are broken and I have to stop thinking I can do it… let his g/f do that! I don’t think he and I can even be friends anymore because it gets too complicated with the feelings. He’s that drug that crawls back into my life suddenly and I must ignore it… I will!!
Ladies- one other question. He recently was published and was extremely excited. I admit he is a good writer, but papers don’t normally do stories on him. Well he texted me immediately to share he had worked so hard and that he made the paper. This is my confusion; is he still trying to be a friend and just share with me or is he trying to still be in control over me and this is a way to keep me somehow sucked in? I’m so confused. Ive had nC btw for 2 days.
Orange, Please reread Natalie’s post. You will never know what he is thinking so stop tearing yourself up wondering what’s in his head. Heck, he probably doesn’t even know what he is thinking. It doesn’t matter anyway. What matters is that the relationship is toxic and you need to stay away. He doesn’t know how to have healthy relationships so it doesn’t matter if he really and truly wants to be your friend.
In my opinion, he is still using you to stroke his ego. He just wants a different kind of stroking than usual.
Congrats on your 2 days of NC!
or is he trying to still be in control over me and this is a way to keep me somehow sucked in — THAT’S THE RINGER.
I’ve had nC btw for 2 days— make it 3. . .then 4. . .then 5. . .then 365. That’s a year.
Don’t even bother with the “no more you until no more her” thing I said before.
See — until you get some distance, you can’t see that ole boy is all about him. Not you.
For example, as a not-bad, not good musician, until I set up a website and clear policies about the circumstances under which I would get together and jam or otherwise collaborate with people I didn’t know, I was SO TEMPTED! SO caught up in the other person! SO caught up in feelings and possibilities! SO. . .willing. . .to . . .PLEASE!!!!!
I needed a built-in way of stepping back, and being forced to do so. I think that’s what you need as well.
Sort of like, first go no contact. Then, when you do contact him after a LONG while, it’s only to direct him to your website of wonderful things going on in your own life — to which he will NOT respond, by the way. More no contact. Then when you do respond to his messages, it’s only to “meet up” with someone else there — no more will you spend time alone with him.
Etcetera. I’m not saying the steps are perfect or apropos, but you need SOMETHING b/c no contact seems to be too much for you. You need something to clearly delineate that the relationship is going to be tipped in your favor or ended.
And . . .it should. . .be. . .ended.
For me, NC got easy after 1) lots of distance and 2) lots of practice noticing that most (new) men were all about them.
I have steps: I’ll chat up the person, then direct them to my website. No further chatting until they make it clear to me that they understand what I want and have an intent to treat me equally in the situation. If not? Well, for me? When I text, that means I don’t want to be bothered with people — I guess I’m different in that way, I don’t confuse text with emotion.
so. . .I think this texting is like an emotional stimulus-response for you, like Pavlovian. His ego=your feelings stirred up=texting to see how he can hook you=his ego.
Dr. Phil says this thing where don’t treat anyone like a priority who treats YOU like an option.
You are his option, not his priority. You are not *YOUR OWN* priority. . .until you are.
He is a good writer? He is excited? He is in the papers?
Lady, where are YOU and YOUR accomplishments in this equation?
Yep.
That’s the thing OrangeSun it’s not that there’s a problem with you being happy for him over his achievement; you care about him – why would you not be happy? But engaging with him, expressing your happiness for him, whatever, these things have been provably harmful to you. So you can’t do it however much you want to, or feel that you should – be a good friend or a good sport. You’ll tell yourself that you’ll just congratulate him over this one thing and then you’ll disengage and put it all behind you. But then he’ll contact you with the next thing and what do you do then? Where do you draw the line? You do have the right to draw the line. If dealing with this man messes with your head and makes you feel bad you shouldn’t do it, and you don’t owe it to him to do it. You’re not his keeper and you’re not responsible for his happiness. You are responsible for your own though so…misspriscilla is right, you need to focus on you. Good Luck.
Thank you .. agreed and you are right.
@Stephanie and misspriscilla- if I could hug you both I would! I love reading Natalie’s blogs and hearing from amazing ladies like you–it’s all very blundt and that’s what I need! This EU toxic controlling guy needs to take a hike. I’m not going to be people pleasing him by stroking that ego or anything else for that matter! The NC will be tough, but the less I hear from him, the stronger I feel and more “free”. I’ve toyed with replying to him if he does text me, but guaranteed he will notice I’m not my bubbly self and want to come over. Although maybe that’s what should happen so I can tell him where to stuff it in person! Wish me luck ladies — I survived almost dieing last year, was strong and fought back to healthy, have a wonderful job and family, caring friends, and a new path. I have found the fork in the road. Cheers 😉
Respected All,
I feel like I am able to breath again after seeing this forum and thanks a lot to Natalie madam !!
First of all I am sorry for the so long story but I really need suggestion based out of the exact situation please.
I am the one who ruined all of my life due to over honesty. I really need your advices and solutions to solve my mistake please.
As I got molested couple of times during my child, I was very very cautious of boys/men and my dressing. I do not sit beside them, dont even give eye contact, very self-disciplined thinking and took oath myself that I should be pure by heart that I should have my future husband only in my heart and no love affairs. I really made it until my post-graduation though so many guys proposed me, thinking of I should get arranged marriage only to keep up my family respect/happiness.
But God has another path for me. As I am very intimidated girl I do not have many friends but one or two. So I became very good friend to one of the love couple(he and she loving each other before I met), they became best friends and I started doing all favour to them though they not expecting(its my weakness to help others without expecting anything). But I always draw the line with him as a girl but no line to show my helping hand thinking there will not be any problem from that guy because he already has lover and she also best friend to me and I like both of them very much that I forgot about rest of my world including my parents also. But one day he hugged me and expressed his love to me. As I am a kind of girl who dont give importance to love before marriage I should have vanished away from his eye sight for ever, but he hugged me so my oath broken so I cannot marry another guy but I dont want to marry him also because he is my friends lover who dreaming beautiful life of their marriage, so I dont want her to cheat. But I cheated in another way that is having illegal relationship with him, which I dont want but because of him I made it but the mistake I did here is, I should have ran away from their life for ever. Why I didn’t ran away is, I dont want to marry another guy and so I want to die after completing some family responsibilities with in one year, I thought at least for one year I can think him as my husband. But it took two years to complete my responsibilities which includes that I made both of them to marry(and had a child) and I am all set to end myself. But as I am continuing my relation these 2 years, one day I came to know that he cannot live without me (I know this before also but not expected that he’ll die if am not there) and if I die he cannot be alive. So I didnt die. Finally 10 years passed like this by cheating my best friends, parents with uncountable lies and dramas, which all are against to my personality and attitude.
I forgot that I am also a human who need happy, joy, marry, children and people to share my feelings. Why because, due to me their life should not be disturbed and spoiled. But I cannot describe the pain that I went through these many years having a feeling of cheating my friend. This caused to spoil my health, became very moody, dull, sleeping all the time, just looking at the dark closed room and away from all friends/family members/relatives. In short, I lived in hell.
Because of my dramas and lies, I started living in their house itself. Now she is ready to share her husband by getting marrying with him as second wife(she don’t know our relation). In my heart, I never expected this(not only me no girl in this world likes this) but played dramas because he need me to stay in their house only. And I know that I need to face so many problems if I stay as second wife like I do not get respect, I cannot take decisions, I cannot do what I want, I cannot eat what I want, I cannot sleep when I want, how much love I may show to their family at the end of the day I’ll be a third person and endless sacrifices/hiding myself. I set myself to face all these by thinking that I only need to face only for few years after that with my love I had a confidence that I can solve all the problems at least to some extent which is for the sake of him.
But in-justice things cannot be supported by God though I put abundant effort, many sacrifices and show love. And I trust his love also pure and not fake, that is the reason I was able to continue for more than 10 years. And also he going through pain that he spoiled my life. But he cannot imagine me getting marry another guy, of course even I. I loved him so much and in fact cannot live without knowing he is living happy.
Now I failed myself to stay in his house permanently as promised to him, though I got chance to be a second wife(which we didn’t expect in the beginning but we though I’ll stay as a fiend in their house forever). Because I lost my patience to face all the insult that I receiving in his house. That doesn’t mean that I want to live happily(after cheating all), but it means that I want some self-esteem. So I have below options:
1.Stay back at his house by marrying him: Though I tried for this earlier and showed him many hopes that I’ll be with him throughout his life, I am now unable to stay in his house. Because I lost all my patience and broke my heart on their family members(I dont blame them because no other family members would have been accepted me to the level they accepted me. They are good but I lost control on myself to get adjust with them). So without love on their family members how can I stay throughout my life. Am I thinking right ? or Am I doing the only things that I feel happy(may be within myself I feel I am sacrificing) like initially I want to stay in his house permanently(so played many dramas) but now as I got unhappy I want to leave him. Am I thinking wrong? Should I convince myself to learn on how to adjust in his house throughout my life. If I try can I really make it happen till my death because day by day I am thinking negatively? or should I respect my self-esteem and leave his house.
2.Quit this relation and live without marrying anyone: Many times I tried to end this relation very seriously but due to his emotional things I am unable to do this(of course even I cannot live without him but I concluded myself that what I am doing is not right so at least now I should not prolong this). The problem for him is, as I am aged(33) now I do not get good guys who can take care of me, even he cannot imagine me with another guy and he cannot live without me(its all my mistake that I should have not showed that much caring on him/his family) and he is going under depression that because of him only my life spoiled and even attempted suicide along with his family(so I said i am happy only and will live in his house).
On the other hand, in future if I convince him to break up, I am worried of my future that how can I live alone as I am very much scared of bad mens(because I know how bad men cunningly tries to satisfy their lust especially with alone women). I have great interest to serve the society as much as I can, but as alone I cannot think of it also. How can I live alone without any responsibility and who will takecare me during my old age. So once I step out of his house I have no good life. So should I think selfish and stay back in his house itself by adjusting myself thinking its my self-made fate (though I cannot).
3. Quit this relation and marry someone: So in future if I convince him to break up and as I am scared of living alone, if I make-up my mind to marry another guy then can I be able to succeed it. Because may be the fault is with me only that is the reason I am not able to live in his house under his love and affection, but not ready to face the insults. May be I dont know how to adjust and how to run family. So can I be able to live with a new guy whom I gets marry only for the sake of marriage and social security. So what if I spoil that marriage also and that new guy’s life also spoil as if I cannot forget this ex-lover. In addition, should I tell my relation story upfront to him before marriage, and then who will marry me after 10 years of relation? If someone marry me knowing my background also, in future if he criticise my character then for sure I feel hell. And for sure I know that in every situation I’ll compare my future husband with my ex. So isn’t that a sin that I cheat my future husband? And also cheating my ex by showing many hopes for a decade that I’ll never leave him ?. What if I want my ex back if I could not live and if I fail to control myself ?
On the other hand, currently he is not healthy so if I leave then because of that depression if he(will) not takes care of his health and dies soon(please don’t think mean about me but this is one of the major reason I continued these many years), then I think I cannot live happy married life. So I want to live alone, but again I am scared of living alone.
Or as I went through the painful days for a decade, is God wrote good life in future for me ? Because I am at least honesty to myself so to fulfil the bonding of marriage I have confidence that I’ll takes care of future husband and can love him if he ready to accept my love(maybe I am superstitious because I failed with the one whom I really loved for a decade. But with full commitment and determination I can try but again its in God’s hand if my future marriage will succeed or not).
4. Get suicide: This is the best solution according to me. But after these many years I learnt little philosophy, so I understood that suicide is a sin. So I wants to live till I get natural death. But scared of living alone, cannot marry and cannot live in his house. So only option for me is suicide forgetting the bullshit of the sin as I failed in all aspects of my life. Because I am very much anger on myself about my super over honesty.
Respected all, can you please suggest what is the solution for my problem. Your advice may give life to me.
******
And my message to all the one who is currently in beginning stage of illegal affair: Please stop it and run away from his/her life forever and make them live happy if your love is true though initially it leaves pain to them. Please dont make mistake like me until the life teaches you the lesson that I am facing.
*****
Thanks in Advance.
Dear Sinner,
you are not a sinner! But this whole story sounds completely crazy! You seem to have no self esteem and are full of religious illusions. Sorry to be so hard!
You are still young and with thinking about the value of your own life you will find a way. Read more in Natalie’s blog, search for words and read the articles.
You will realize that you are the most valuable thing in your life. You have only this one….
Break up and out. Go to another city! No contact! NML! Go to another country to save your life. All this is NO LOVE! Its total fake! What is scary in living alone and owning your life in comparison to this mess?
It sounds that you need professional help by a counsellor. Please get it! It will cost money but you spend it for yourself.
All the best! I am very concerned about your health.
(I am a man and a doctor..)
Hi NK,
Thank you for the reply !!
I agree that you are rude because the fact is I am crazy, so I agree that you right. That is the reason I am angry on myself and punishing myself.
And I realized my mistakes which I cannot rectify now. But I am trying my level best to start a new life. The first thing what I am trying to learn is to respect myself and I want to take time to decide what I am capable of doing in future.
One more comment…I used to keep track of the days of no contact in my journal. “Day 1 – No contact with ___. Day 35 – No contact with ____.
One of my new year’s goals was to quit keeping track of my no contact with him. Why? Because every day that I wrote such, it made me think about him. In a way, I was still stroking his ego even though he didn’t know it. So this year…no more contact but also no more even writing his name regardless of positive or negative.
When I journal this year, it’s about my power, my life, my goals, my joy. In an article I read about believing in yourself, it ended with “Happy You Year.” Perfect!
Natalie, everything you state is true, but how do i get my focus off of him. trying to keep busy and getting involved in other activities doesn’t seem to help me
Thank you all for all your comments! They are what I need to read right now. I need emotional and spiritual rehab meetings! There should be chapters of BC groups that can meet in local areas all over the world.
Hi I am Brenda and I am addicted to an EUM…..
@anna – you have a very good question. How do you block out thoughts of this EU toxic man that has taken over most of your thought process for “X” amount of time? I have tried to not think about mine during the day (I’m doing NC and so far so good thanks to these amazing ladies on here!). I find I do think about him now and it’s a lot of reflecting on the good we had, the fun times, and asking wtf went wrong with HIM? I get frustrated because I deserve the guy he used to be but then I wake up and realize — he lied to me from the start. He wasn’t single when I met him. He withheld that. He still only shares crumbs with me and I’m literally afraid to ask him things because I know he will snap at me — they are questions I would ask any other guy friend without hesitation but not him. In my head I know that’s effed up. But he’s a drug and a addiction and my brain was retrained by him for many years to think that’s just the way it is. Thank god we never dated, and we never will. It’s been thing but stress on my side of whatever you call this blurred friendship, and I accept that he has mental issues / depression etc but if he can pull it together for his girlfriend, he has missed the mark with me assuming I’ll just take whatever he throws at me and always be there. Wrong. Working out , trying to reconnect with friends who I lost because of him, shopping, work, music, etc… keeps me grounded and I stay away from the danger zone. A lot of little things trigger me though – a commercial we used to laugh about, certain sports games, news items, movies coming out I want to see with him… but I won’t reach out, and it hurts like hell. But I have to be strong and show him I am not his option!!!!
Hi everyone – I have been reading all of the remarks here and I have a situation where I fell for my Male BFF. We have admitted we have feelings for eachother but never have slept together. Sometimes we get awful close but we both just back off — at this point I feel like it’s torture. All we do is text and flirt , he future fakes a lot and I can’t seem to get him to commit to spending time with me. (He doesn’t live near by it’s a haul to get to me). I find that I always come up with things as a reason for him to come over. I broke a lawn chair can u help me, I made extra food because i had a party do you want some etc… sometimes he will come over and he is great. We laugh and have a great time but I always have to instigate it. I text him and 10% if the time he replies. I’m always the one that replies immediately. I’m sick of that. He also changes his cell number like people change hair styles. He always gives me his new digits but I can’t figure out why he is filtering people so much… should I just back off from this guy and stop the flirting ? Mind u I have known him since we were introduced through a mutual friend about 12 years ago. Men… they scramble my brain!
Hi Salsa,
I’ve added the ‘F’ after my first name as I see that there is another Michele (with one ‘l’) writing on here about a different topic.
It does seem to me that you are giving much, much more than you’re getting back (or might EVER get back) from him (even as a friend, much less as a romantic partner). Sounds like he’s messing you around a bit, everything is on HIS terms with you making all the effort and him ‘doing you a favour’ by deciding to occasionally answer your texts or swing by at his own convenience. Doesn’t look like he wants to get serious so you’ll need to do one of two things: Accept that you will only be friends and ask him not to flirt with you as it ‘muddies the waters’ OR you’ll have to put some distance between the two of you by not texting him all the time.
I’ve recently had to send a message to a guy I was dating for a bit (see my posts) to end things in my own mind and stop driving myself mad trying to work out what’s going on in his head. I feel much better for having done it too. It’s simple self-preservation.
I know it’s very difficult for you as this guy has been a friend for a long time. I think you might be in a ‘When Harry Met Sally’ situation (WITHOUT the happy Hollywood ending). They were friends for years but when they had sex it just made everything weird between them, with Harry rushing off at the earliest opportunity and Sally left feeling hurt.
Please think about YOU in this situation and remember that giving so much to someone who gives so little back is always just going to lead to more disappointment and pain.
Good luck with everything. Please let us know how you get on. 🙂 M
Michele F- thank you so much, you have very accurately described my feelings. I do feel like I am pushed and pulled with my feelings. I’ve always been there for him no matter what, but when you really break it all down, where was he when I needed him? I almost feel like it’s a flaw with him, and it shocks me considering he is a high ranking military man. He helps others all of the time… I need to learn how to step back and not offer to help and give to him. I have days where I question why he still talks to me. If he was just in it for the booty calls we would have done that when we first met. I sincerely think he considers me a friend — he’s trusted me with some very intense things that he has gone through. But, after reading this amazing blog, I also feel he is EU and isn’t capable of handling a close relationship with me although he wants to. Maybe I shouldn’t give him the benefit of the doubt but that’s my two cents. I will indeed step back and give him more space though and let him come to me … NC (most of the time I start the conversations via text), will be so tough. I always stroke his ego when he ends up going off on missions and text him at all hours of the day just to say hello and know I’m thinking of him. I only wish he would reciprocate :((
Hi Salsa,
That definitely sounds like a plan, don’t contact him for a good long while. Try to focus on other aspects of your life, I know from personal experience how mentally exhausting it is when you’re trying to figure out what he’s thinking and why. You need to look after YOURSELF now, he certainly seems to have no problem putting himself first. He thinks about his own wants and needs and puts yours way down the list of priorities. You deserve better, life really is too short to settle for just a few little ‘crumbs’ from someone. Take it from me, I know that from bitter experience.
All the best. :-)M
I will work on ME and figure this out — thank you. I have to try and sort out how to disassemble parts of my life that he played reoccurring roles in. It upsets me because part of my brain trusts him, and trusts he is my friend but the other parts is screaming “CODE RED”! That part knows that he isn’t the man for me, and my people pleasing isn’t going to get me anywhere with him. He’s just eating it up and hardly trying… everything is handed to him (in terms of our friendship). Well, off I go to stitch up my heart and build up that self esteem wall. Disappearing and NC from him…. I got this. I’ll keep u updated. 😉
Salsa,
My support goes out to you and I admire your resolve. Certainly I am in no position to give advice. I echo what Michele F has said.
Your situation resonates with me because I too had a friendship with MEU; it was mutual and its duration was about 4 years. It didn’t change overnight but back in 2015 it became different, initially with compliments and flirting. FF and everything is a mess. I so know what it is like to be hooked and your use of “torture” is familiar to me. When I first found this site I was amazed. I have the books Mr.EU and Fantasy on my tablet. Between them and the posts here my mind just swims. What he does or does not do, what he says or does not say is just compounded by the time I spend trying to somehow figure out what he thinks.
The emotional brain is capable of partitioning itself in many ways. Once he told me he could seem distant (a comment made to him by someone else) but said that he would never be that way with me. A part of my brain said of course not because what we had was special but the other part of my brain registered code red; that he was telling me exactly how he was going to be with me. I pushed that conscious thought deep into my subconscious.
In my situation, as you said of yours, he is hardly trying. Over the last week I interpreted a couple of things as “he is trying” and I was mistaken. As Michele F said, it is a bitter and exhausting experience.
Million – ohhh I think we all need to meet up in a local pub for a few cocktails, and have a round table discussion!:)
You mentioned how he told you basically how he was going to be. Mine has texted me before saying “I know I’m a terrible friend, no one understands me and it’s really sad but that’s okay, whatever.” That was after he had disappeared for a week. He has said things like that before and it’s clearly him telling me, this is how I am going to behave, take it or leave it! Our brains just fight that because deep down we want so much more– I always see more potential in him and it’s because of his job. He’s a different person when he’s working but I see the real man behind the mask. He has PTSD and inside I know he is fragile. Trust issues — oh yeah he has them.. as he gets older everything gets worse and I end up trying to help him and be there but I can’t do it anymore. I end up suffering. My anxiety levels kick into overdrive and I cannot focus on anything but him. I guess if we hadn’t blurred the lines of this friendship so long ago things would be easier, but when he tells you that he has feelings for you and cares, it is tough to not focus on that. Crumbs though, and FF are all I have and damnit that is not a healthy loving friendship.
He got hurt on a training mission 2 years ago. Nothing major, but he could not do his job and ended up behind a desk while he healed. He completely disappeared and didn’t want to talk. I saw him in person and it was like trying to pull teeth to get him to talk. Of course I said “stop over and visit with me, I would love to see you I have been worried about you!”. You know what he said? “I don’t know, I just live my life moment to moment right now.” Wow… and he’s been like that ever since. (He was cleared by medical and back to his normal job now). But yeah that just hurt that he would say that. Whether it’s PtSD or if it’s because he cannot get close, it amazes me how he will FF with me and disappear so easily. Oh 1 more example. I bet no one has had this happen before. 5 years ago I took a job where I could not use my phone during the hours I was in this particular building. He knew where I was and had been thrilled that I found this place to work. I left my first day there and got home to find my phone had at least 10 texts from him, missed calls and he had called my parents house to see if someone had stolen my phone. He was upset and worried about me. Yes he is close to my parents btw. Remember tho… if he disappears and I try to text him… ooohh that’s taboo! Yeah I’m ready for distance and some major healing. I have Natalie’s books and this amazing site with all of your comments that have helped me more than you know. I don’t know if I will ever figure him out and he’s really missing out on an amazing woman who cared for him so much but for my health I cannot anymore. 🙁
Salsa,
Yeah, someone should organise a Baggage Reclaim girls’ (and guys’) night out so we can meet and swap dating/relationship ‘war stories’.
I think you need a bit of distance from him in order to give yourself a break. I know he is a bit damaged (with the PTSD, etc.) which is setting off your ‘carer’ instincts. That’s natural. But you need to do a bit of caring for YOURSELF now.
Please leave him to himself for a bit, don’t text/call to check on him all the time. He certainly knows that you care about him, you’ve shown that time and time again. He really needs to show that to you in return (for a change).
Can do….and WILL. I guess sometimes we just meet people who we are drawn to and feel we need to care for. He was “that guy”. If I could turn back time I would never had met him in person. BUT I have learned so much and will know the signs. Ill keep you updated as I go NC and give him space. Cheers.
Salsa,
You posted “…and I cannot focus on anything but him. I guess if we hadn’t blurred the lines of this friendship so long ago things would be easier, but when he tells you that he has feelings for you and cares, it is tough to not focus on that.”
Oh yes, I hear and feel that. In my case there were times when “what have we done?” was discussed. Our mutual conclusion was that an attraction developed and grew so strong that what happened was inevitable. And I can remember the exact moment that attraction began.
BTW my screen name is from Lady Gaga’s song which describes me and it exactly.
Nice screen name — funny you should mention music, so many songs and lyrics have helped me work through frustrations about him! I crank up the tunes and exercise. 🙂 Has anyone gone as far as seeing a psychic because of the frustration that these EU AC’s cause us?
Gah… I broke NC because I saw something that reminded me of the good times with him. I heard he was sick and not working so I immediately reverted back to my people pleasing ways and sent that damn text being my sweet self… I know I won’t get a text back and that is what hurts. I feel so cruddy because I don’t have the power to break free from this drug of a man. How do u all do it!!!!
Just like that! When you recognise that the next time it will be exactly the same as it was this time. Because it always is: It’s never any different and it’s never any better. There comes a day when you don’t feel or hope but know that you’re worth more than whatever lacklustre effort some guy might expend on you – if he feels like it. At that point you’re done. You might not be over it (probably won’t be) but you can’t go back. It’s the Fallback girl’s Rubicon!
yes girl yes.
Orange, That’s Mr Unavailable’s stock-in-trade, he’ll give you just enough good times with a few little ‘table scraps’ of attention and affection thrown in (when HE feels like it). That’s how he keeps women holding on, they hope that these ‘scraps’ will somehow become a fulfilling relationship someday. That won’t happen, he will continue to slowly ‘starve’ you emotionally.
If it’s all about him, with everything on his terms and you left feeling confused and anxious by his inconsistent behaviour it’s really time to call it a day. You need to stand up for your self-esteem and free yourself from his trap once and for all. You have one life, this is it. Do you want to spend any more of it feeling this way? Didn’t think so. Keep thinking about all the pain this is causing you. THAT’S how you do it.
Stay strong. Let us know how you get on. 🙂
@MicheleF – no. No I don’t want to feel like this anymore. I want to feel more like myself and the way I used to be. No more anxiousness, anger, highs, lows… life is 2 short and he is NOT worth it.
@Eli and Michele F thank you. It’s what I need to hear after mentally yo yo’ing back and forth today about him. I actually saw him from a distance tonight in a store . He just waved and smiled as I was stuck in a line. This doesn’t answer why he never replied to my texts when I expressed concern for him feeling ill and over tired. That’s the part that will always, stump me. As I move forward knowing he has been using me for ego stroking, and as a time killer when he wants to talk, I will absolutely be more careful putting myself out there. I admit when friends talk about how they hook up with guys after meeting at the bars and resorts so easily and just kinda go with it, it makes me ask “whyyyyy can’t it be easier with this EU AC?”. He’s had all of these years for us to hook up a lot and we still act like teenagers around eachother for the sake of the friendship — which is very quickly showing it’s real face. It’s very 1 sided ugly face. I’m sure you all know what I’m going through and letting go and doing NC again has begun. I blocked his cell number. Wish me luck and strength.
Good luck, we’re all behind you. 🙂
‘Needle in a Haystack’ by The Velvelettes is my theme song these days (except for the bit about believing ‘all fellas are nice’, I’ve never believed that).
Has anyone ever felt that they are struggling with NC and staying NC because they fear the CHANGE? The change of always being the OW/friend that made them laugh, texted them funny things randomly, shared advice when they asked, watched sports…. but now, they have started bowing cold and they have changed. Not us. They have changed and it is scary. Where do we as the people pleasers fit in now ? That’s what scares me and always makes me second guess NC– I don’t want to lose what I know if there is still a chance.