It’s no secret here on Baggage Reclaim that I used to have a penchant for assclowns and Mr Unavailables and I know that part of the problem was that I used to get carried a way on a sea of excitement, curiosity, and professed attraction and chemistry. As I discussed over several posts a few weeks back, compatibility, ‘type’ and ‘common’ interests is what keeps us chasing the same ‘ole relationship patterns with same guys different packages.
We let our ideas about compatibility, type, and the so-called ‘common interests‘ we share with these guys blind us to the reality because we use the excitement, passion, hopes, dreams, curiosity, desperation and the whole kit and caboodle to blow life into the chemistry and attraction and create an illusion that we hold fast to.
We’d actually make more progress and opt out sooner if we came down to earth, parked what we think we feel, and then sanity checked it with the reality to see if the two things match up.
Instead, the illusion and the fantasy outpace the reality till we get a nasty jolt that suddenly highlights the fact that we have become too far distanced.
The struggle then ensues because it’s like we don’t want to connect with the reality so we keep trying to push the illusion, only now that we are aware that there is a reality that’s different to what we imagined things to be and that it doesn’t sit too great with our feelings, the reality starts to gather pace and catch up with us.
We don’t want to accept the reality because we want to hold onto the feeling and continue with the fantasy because if we don’t, we have to do something.
This is how we end up holding onto assclowns and Mr Unavailables. We deny the reality and claim that we feel a strong chemistry and an ‘undeniable’ attraction that we don’t think we’ll find anywhere else.
Truth is, if you have unhealthy relationship patterns, a history of being attracted to Mr Unavailables and assclowns, then the reality is that you feel chemistry and attraction with people who are reflective of some negative things that you believe about yourself, love, and relationships.
People who don’t have you best interests at heart and who don’t have both feet in the relationship, plus who struggle to treat you with love, care, trust and respect, are those you feel chemistry with. That’s a problem.
If you have been involved with Mr Unavailables and assclowns, then you’ll know that fear has a big part to play, and in being involved with these types, you end up realising your fears, not avoiding them, so you feel chemistry and attraction to people that represent your fears.
What you also need to consider is that people can see when you see more in them than actually exists and are dining off an illusion.
Not only will they end drawing their own, likely unfavourable conclusions about you, but for some, your penchant for being caught up in the illusion represents an opportunity for them to take advantage of you.
And what about when they say stuff like:
I’m not the man you think I am.
I don’t want you to get carried away here because I know I’m going to disappoint you.
You’ve got the wrong guy.
I keep telling you I can’t do this.
You’re expecting too much from me.
They’re trying to tell you something: they’re saying get with the reality, stop projecting, stop betting on potential, and get me down off that pedestal.
This is why it’s important to believe you’re worthy and start liking and loving yourself, otherwise you’ll be looking up to guys and blowing smoke up their arses when they don’t deserve it.
All this reality avoidance is like taking your feeings and ideas and projecting them on to a different guy each time, so it’s not even like you’re seeing them anymore.
I don’t want to kill off the excitement and passion, but until you address why you pursue and are attracted to certain types of partner, you will continue to overestimate the chemistry and attraction that you feel for these men, because you don’t get real which also means you don’t see them, the red flags, and the potential crossing of boundaries.
At the end of the day, you need someone of substance and character. You need more than ‘feelings’ because if all you needed was ‘attraction’ and ‘chemistry’ to carry you into a committed relationship with the potential to last, we’d all be living happily ever after… with assclowns and Mr Unavailables.
Some people are drawn to the heat and ‘beauty’ of the flames in the fire and they put their hand in and discover that it burns. Do they pull their hand away and learn to be attracted to less dangerous things or do they put their hand back in and say, Eff it! It hurts but I can’t help my attraction to it?
Add to favorites
“I’m way better at this stuff online than I am in person.”
“I don’t deserve a woman like you.”
“I always end up letting down people who care about me.”
“You KNOW I’m a doofus and it doesn’t seem to matter.”
Should have LISTENED to the guy … 🙂
Lol Skyscraper…
“Some people are drawn to the heat and ‘beauty’ of the flames in the fire and they put their hand in and discover that it burns. Do they pull their hand away and learn to be attracted to less dangerous things or do they put their hand back in and say ‘eff it, it hurts but I can’t help my attraction to it?”
Loved that part.I guess is way time for me to start being atracted to less dangerous things and stop investing on something bad just because I fell the atraction.Great post NML.
“I’m not the man you think I am.”
“I don’t want you to get carried away here because I know I’m going to disappoint you.”
“You’ve got the wrong guy.”
“I keep telling you I can’t do this.”
“You’re expecting too much from me.”
When people tell you who they are, please believe them. I forgot all about my guy telling me he was so afraid he was going to disappoint me. At the time, I thought, “Gee, what an honest man, to be so open about his fears. Most men don’t confess to any type of insecurities.” I also wondered why you would willingly disappoint someone. Now that I see this, I guess I should have paid more attention to what he was really trying to say-don’t depend on me for any time of genuine emotional commitment, because I am incapable of giving one to any woman. These folks should be put on a desert island with each other-away from the rest of us.
@Skyscraper- anyone who says that they are better online than in person-run away as fast as you can in the opposite direction. Trust me, I found out the hard way.
H ha, my exEUM said “You’re too much woman for me, I’m not man enough for you.”
@Skyscraper He’s trying to tell you who he really is!
@Sarah 🙂
@Anusha Yes – you’ve got to stop putting your hands in the fire because you now know that no matter how pretty those flames are, you will get burnt which in itself makes it not so attractive anymore!
@Penny I doubt there’s an island big enough! People tell you directly and indirectly about their insecurities. Whilst you can appreciate them being honest, as you’ve discovered you have to process that information and realise what it actually means for you and the relationship.
Er…any man who says he’s better online must be moved away from faster than a speeding train!
@Regina Toxicodendron Diversilobum Hello stranger! Nice to hear from you. My my! That was quite the declaration from him. When they say stuff like this, we end up going ‘Yes you are, you’re so XYZ’ and bigging them up so we can boost their ego.
@ Butterfly If the connection feels familiar to previous ‘connections’, I’d feel very cautious. If it’s got all the other stuff that makes for a good relationship candidate, knock yourself out, but if the person is lacking in substance, I’d run for the hills.
@Meant To Be Happy Hopefully this will help. A forum is a discussion board where people post topics to be answered and can form groups around those topics. Blogs are really websites with articles that have comment boxes for you to respond to the author or subject of the piece.
@Blaise Thank you ever so much for your thoughtful, eloquent reply! I have taken on your suggestions and set up a group on Ning which will hopefully resolve this issue! I’m glad you enjoyed the post. I hear you on the connection and chemistry- the funny thing is when you examine the relationship further, it turns out there really isn’t much of a connection or chemistry for that matter!
@divalolo You have been spared the pain! It’s that word ‘possibilities’ that you need to use to remind yourself that whilst you can do some hoping, you need to make sure your feet are grounded in reality.
@Anusha I think you’ve highlighted why the forum/social network has needed to be set up because a comments box isn’t for posting that kind of content, as you pointed out. You want to be able to look for help and hopefully now this can be done without creating the problem that has existed. I think for the most part, most people who don’t follow the guidelines don’t do so intentionally and they take their lead from others. I don’t think there is any bad intentions but in the past, I have particularly taken issue with those who have been warned about it.
@Brad K Absolutely. The thing is if you’re relating to an illusion, you’re disregarding the reality of that person and keeping yourself at a distance also because the reality of the interactions are distorted!
“I’m not as strong as you”
I think this is well timed for me, because I am working out what to do with this guy I saw the other week. On paper … well on paper he is great but he’s not making much effort to contact and as the time creeps in I am starting to think “hmmm ok but is he really compataible?” Then I meet someone with all the chemistry as a massive click …
I am taking a step back from the whole thing (I did text Mr Dectective and got a reply fairly soon but I know he is still busy … BUT ….)
Oh I dunno. One thing I do know is that the undeniable chemistry IS deniable when in NC 🙂
@NML – I also saw your comment at the end of the last post, and I would like to ask a question, if I could – what is the difference between a blog and a forum? This is the first site I have ever posted on, and I’m not fully aware of the difference.
When I am answering other people’s posts, I do try to keep the topic in mind, and to address it somewhere in my comment (e.g., power, isolation, personal happiness), but is this not enough? I am so appreciative of this site – it means so much to me, and I want to use it appropriately.
Thanks NML,
Meant
Meant,
I don’t know what NMLs answer will be, but I think the difference is commenters primarily talking to each other about a topic(s) and a blog is commenters talking about the POST and to the AUTHOR, as well as to each other.
I agree completely with Sweetie187’s post in the last forum, it does seem that the comments section here has become (in my words) a lonely hearts club of about 6 or so people, with folks using this site as a therapuetic outlet, and I don’t think it is respectful to NML or to other commenters.
It seems that focusing so much on our personal pain and day to day truimphs/upsets and what is going on with our personal EX-EUMs are not only uncomfortable for others to read such a level of intimacy but perhaps not very safe to discuss on such an open forum.
Perhaps a small forum for the “regulars” who have formed a connection (and any others who may wish to share more personal revelations) would be a safer and more respectful discussion area than here.
Now, on topic…This was an amazing paragraph:
“At the end of the day, you need someone of substance and character – you need more than ‘feelings’ because if all you needed was ‘attraction’ and ‘chemistry’ to carry you into a committed relationship with the potential to last, we’d all be living happily ever after with assclowns and Mr Unavailable’s.”
You have a real way with words, NML. I used to be so focused on “chemistry” or even more, our “CONNECTION”. But what did that really mean? NOTHING. It meant, I was using some elusive fear-based feeling to fuel getting treated like crap. That’s what that meant.
Thanks, this blog has really helped me to wake up.
Oops, I meant Sweetie’s post in the last TOPIC, not forum.
“… people can see when you see more in them than actually exists and are dining off an illusion. Not only will they end drawing their own, likely unfavourable conclusions about you, but for some, your penchant for being caught up in the illusion represents an opportunity for them to take advantage of you.”
My xEUM used to say to me “Don’t look at me like that” (e.g. google-eyes of adoration). I was carried away by the sex hormones and the possibilities. Sure enough, he went off the boil plenty soon. Thankfully I found Baggage Reclaim and saved some of my dignity, otherwise I would still be beating that dead horse.
Thanks for the post.
Butterfly-I was talking about my other post to you regarding the email to my ex mother.I had posted it here since the last page was closed for coments and NML moved it back there.
About meant question,I think that in a forum you can post about anything you want and on a blog you suposed to keep on the topic of the post,comenting about the post.I understand NML request to keep it on topic but I do think we also need a place where we can coment about personal things that happen to us and that we need advice.For example the email to my ex mother or what to do when the ex EUM calls,show up,text like I saw some posts here about it.I know is off topic but sometimes we just dont know how to handle the situation and need some advice.And since my name was included in the “six group” that a few posters mentioned,I wanted to say that never was my intention to let anybody out.Yes I discussed about some people personal problems here and my own too but like I said I was just giving and looking for advice,not to make a closed group or anything like that.
I am not sure where to post this on the website, so please forgive me if it is in the wrong spot. I am really looking for some help and support.
Three months ago I started dating a very famous person. He did not have a reputation as a womanizer or an assclown, and our mutual friends all told me he was a great catch and that I shouldn’t think twice about dating him. He had had a long term relationship in the past with a “normal girl” (not a star or a female with public profile), so I felt like I must indeed be his type (as I’m a “normal girl”, too).
We met in a really lovely way and the chemistry between us was fantastic. Still, as I am 32, I played it very cautious and was upfront about my requirements from him. I told him he needed to respect me and to show me his interest rather than just use words. Honestly, he did these things. He took time out of an insane schedule and made sure to see me. He was on time, he was polite, he was a gentleman. He was also funny, clever, and a joy to be around. Over about six weeks we got closer and closer. It was so nice after five years of being single (and having had such a hard time of it) to have met this person who I was beginning to fall very much in love with. He had to go away for the summer, and the night before he left he asked me to be steady with him while he was away. I agreed.
Throughout the summer he was also amazing. We were in constant touch (phone, text, email) and I have no doubt he was entirely faithful. This was feeling like the healthiest relationship of my life. We were both counting down the hours until he got home, and I was so excited to begin this new chapter with him, as he was me.
And then.
And then two weeks ago he arrived home and has not made a minute to see me. The first few days/week I tried to be cool with it. He’s got a huge public profile and basically had dozens and dozens of people he had to see, including family members. I tried to remember we had only really been dating six weeks before he left, and that the two months he was away sort of didn’t count. He was staying in touch with me (he lives in the other end of our city) and SAYING he wanted to see me but was having a hard time carving time.
It is two weeks since he’s been home and obviously I realise I am with an assclown. The trouble is, the whole country I live in thinks he is AMAZING and all of our mutual friends would never even believe that he could/would treat me this way. If anything, they’ll just think that I am not “good enough” for him and that he’s likely better off with an actress or more successful girl. They won’t believe that he’s a guy that won’t commit. I did tell one of my friends the story and she reluctantly offered up (far too late) a story of him doing the same thing to another woman, albeit to a lesser extent.
The only red flag I had before any of this, before he went away, is that he didn’t have sex with me the first six weeks we were together. At the time I thought it was sweet, but after a summer of delicious dirty texting, I find it so weird he would come home and not want to sleep with me even…we’d built that part up in our relationship a lot….
Since he’s been home he’s had tons of time for photo-ops and work but not one minute to see me.
I’ve spent two weeks in shock. I feel like I’ve been so had, and it is all the worse because I was trying to guard against this situation in the first place (making sure we took it slow, that he was respectful of me, etc).
I am very upset and not sure how to cope. I am so lonely in my life — most of my friends have husbands/babies, and in the last two years I have been through a lot of tragedy. I lost my only sibling to cancer and nine other friends have passed away from cancer as well. All under the age of 35. This man seemed to be everything I was hoping for — a dynamic personality, smart, shared mutal friends, and very trustworthy….and now here I am totally totally totally blindsided by his disappearing act and selfcentred behaviour. This, after a whole summer of sending me gifts, notes, photos, being thoughtful and really genuinely putting an effort into keeping our communication very strong. I 100% didn’t see this coming.
I have spent the last two weeks barely coping — hardly sleeping, hardly being able to go to work (I have a demanding, hectic job) and I am so disillusioned by life. I feel like nothing good will ever happen to me, despite my efforts to stay strong, be positive, and hopeful.
I know my story is a bit odd, maybe because the fame of this person I should have forseen it (ego, etc) but honestly I work with famous people all the time and he was the ONE famous person who I honestly felt was DIFFERENT. And now he is turning out to be exactly like the rest of them.
I feel like my options are running out in life. I had a really wonderful boyfriend years ago, but because of geography it didn’t work out and he married and had a child. I coped with family tragedy all on my own, while still working a full time job and taking care of my brother and my mother on my own. Through it all I have stayed as chipper as I could, and when I met this man I thought “finally….now I have someone who cares…”. It made the last three months of my life so lovely and blissful, and now I don’t know how to go on, to start over, and to find myself right back where I was before I met him — alone, and now even MORE vulnerable than before because of how terribly I have been treated.
Any advice or support is so helpful.
I just wish all the girls who want this guy (and there are thousands) knew the truth, but if I told it no one would believe me. His reputation is stellar. I had no idea things would turn out this way.
Devastated. xo.
Devastated, I would suggest joining the new forum and reposting your story there. I will keep an eye out for it there and will post a response. Your posting is too long for me to respond to here but I may post it as a reader advice post as well.
@Butterfly I hope that you are OK. I have set up a forum should you wish to join but the site will still be here should you wish to come back plus you have my email. Take care and thanks.
@Meant to be Happy The trouble with having someone on a pedestal is that the longer it goes on for, the more fatal a blow it deals to the relationship. It’s like saying – you are better than me and looking up at them which means they are looking down on you which means they lose respect for you because you don’t really see the real them – you’re seeing the illusion.
@aphrogirl Personally what I actually find most galling about the tone of these comments is that I have actually given people free reign to comment in spite of the guidelines and have tried to intervene when it gets really out of hand and the hostility kicks in. That’s what happened yesterday. I am trying my best but I do not have time to be playing playground mediator, especially when I have specifically stated that I won’t and why, but if you feel that me asking people to respect the guidelines, i.e. my rules and boundaries, so that this can be an inclusive place where even *I* can comment makes this woolly and cheerleady, then I recognise that there isn’t much that can be done to please you.
@Brokenheartedbabble If you have to call it a fantasy, then you have a problem. Why are you not getting with the reality? It’s not that you can’t have faith in someone but what he is telling you that you have two high expectations of him and have placed him on a pedastal that he either doesn’t think her deserves or doesn’t want to be on. Are you going to continue to push something that he has said he doesn’t want? Or are you going to listen to him and get real about him so that if there is a possibility of a relationship, it’s one based in reality?
We’re going off topic here too ladies, in fact this is the exact thing Natalie asked us not to do.
I personally am not going to post any further. This is not because of any negative thing, or looking for validation. I am just aware that as I have said to many people to be aware that what you post can be difficult for others in a fragile place.
I am at the stage where I want to be helpful and supportive and to show there is life after all these issues with these men who hold us stuck fast precisely because of the subject of this post: that “undeniable attraction” but I realise that I am to the point where I have nothing left to contribute at this stage. Good luck to all of you, much love and strength.
@Blaise – thank you for your response. I must say, I have never meant to be disrespectful to NML or to *anyone* posting here, and when I see people write “hearing everyone’s stories is so helpfulâ€, I figure details are acceptable and wanted sometimes. I apologize to you Blaise, to NML, and to anyone else reading this if anything I have written has made you feel uncomfortable.
@NML – “this is how we end up holding onto assclowns and Mr Unavailable’s – denying the reality and claiming that we feel a strong chemistry with these men, an ‘undeniable’ attraction for them, that we don’t think we’ll find anywhere else.†– this really makes sense to me. I had a strong “chemistry†with my ex that felt so special, I never thought I’d feel it again. Now that we are broken up, I know that, as Butterfly says, the undeniable chemistry IS deniable when in NC. I look forward to the time that it fades away completely. I would like him to be off the pedestal, and I don’t want to bet on potential any more.
@Butterfly – I just refreshed my screen and saw that you no longer plan to post here. You will be missed. I will probably post much less often too, based on the feedback we are getting today. Best of luck to you, too Butterfly, and to all women who read and post here.
Hugs,
Meant
ahhhhh chaos theory lives, this site is just another example : – ))
I personally don’t understand why anyone would be afraid to post here ever, regardless of who all is posting, nor to say something about staying on topic when it goes haywire, if that bothers them enough to not post. Writing and sharing in this way seems to be theraputic to many and a way to get through the shock and awe of realizing you are in deep and in denial with an AC.
I really hope this reminder of NML’s does not make all the comments become those of the rather bland cheerleader variety, as thoughtful comments that explore the topic with personal anecdotes and opinions added a lot to this site for me. Or, in other words…just as some may be uncomfortable with personal or intimate comments, I am uncomfortable with reading just recycled or cheerleader type comments.
This was actually the motivation I needed to move on again. I feel I have been leaning on this site a bit too much of late, so I’m with Butterfly in signing off and wishing everyone well.
Its a wild wooly and wonderful place this internet, and this has been a great place to explore the world of the EUM. Thanks to NML and to all who shared so much of thier insights with me.
@Anusha – thanks to you, too, for your explanation of forum vs blog
@aphrogirl – agreed!!! I have also been leaning on this site a lot, and plan to wind down in the near future. Thank you so much for all your insights, which you have shared with all so freely (same to you, too, Butterfly). Because of NML’s posts and your comments, my life has taken a turn for the better.
Love…
@ NML,
You list a couple of the warnings you might get from him, and explain they mean he wants you to “and get me down off that pedestal.”
But isn’t his complaint also that you aren’t showing respect to him, if you are relating to your illusion instead of who he is? Isn’t he also complaining that you are holding that illusion between the two of you, making it impossible for him to find out who you are?
.-= Brad K.´s last blog ..ps: Boundaries – keep kids, romance safe. =-.
And I have no idea what that spam is at the end of my post. Sorry.
“The struggle then ensues because it’s like we don’t want to connect with the reality so we keep trying to push the illusion, only now that we are aware that there is a reality that is different to what we imagined things to be and doesn’t sit too great with our feelings, the reality starts to gather pace and catch up with us.”
But, NML, when he says “You think more highly of me than I do of myself,” can’t that reflect a man who needs someone to believe in him? Please don’t say my faith is misplaced:-( I’m still betting on the reality of the fantasy. I know there are problems and am not blind enough to realize it may never work. But you’re right in that some days the best I can do is close my eyes and hold on. I don’t know what else to do.
ps: Thanks for clearing up the blog vs forum stuff. I agree with aphrogirl that if all we get here is “bland cheerleader” stuff, this site won’t be helpful. But the conversations have been sometimes intimidating.
.-= brokenheartedbabble´s last blog ..Threadless Tshirt Giveaway at jaypeeonline.net =-.
how about: ” you know I am shy ”
To an extent I thought he was actually shy but I bet if he ever get to love someone he wont be as shy to talk about the relationship.
@Katty A lot of people are shy but that doesn’t stop them from trying in their relationships!
@Tulipa I added your comment to the powerbase post which has the comments now open.
@Aega I obviously can’t stop you from choosing to stop visiting – that is your prerogative but should you wish to continue your discussions, there is now a forum. baggagereclaim.ning.com/
@Leonine – Same for you – it is a shame that in me stating boundaries that have always existed but also creating an alternative place to have these personal discussions that you feel this way.
@sisyphus welcome!
@de-lightedtobefree There is a forum now. I appreciate your desire for these interactions but it’s not really fair to say to thousands of readers each month not to read posts!
@Lisa That’s really good to hear of your progress and how you are learning about yourself. You have the power to change where you go instead of standing still. You are so right about the numbers of people not mattering.
@Anusha Here’s to the ‘magic’ losing its appeal! Don’t be tempted to follow him on Facebook as you will just put yourself in line for pain if you see something you don’t like.
@Judy That is fantastic to hear – yay! I always say – if it feels familiar and you have a history of assclowns and Mr Unavailable’s, be veeeery cautious. The wonderful thing is that you gave things and yourself a chance – good luck to you!
@aphrogirl Thanks for explaining – it’s appreciated. I am off to bed in a moment as it is very late but I will email you tomorrow. In essence off topic is if the comment is not directed at the subject of the post and has spiralled into a personal discussion that is more appropriate to a discussion board not a comments box. I don’t respond to off topic comments because if I did, it would create the message that they are OK and that I will respond to everyone’s off topic comments which then sends an inconsistent message to the people who do actually comment within the guidelines.
I’m sorry to say but I find this confusing now my comments are best suited to “Who Holds The Power Base In Your Relationship”
but you can’t post their I can’t always access a computer at the time NML posts her advice..
Anyway I just wanted to share that I did not do as he expected me to do and and contact him on his b’day. I worked out his mo was to give me crumbs with which I would bake the whole loaf and call to his attention that what he is doing wrong however there was no real consequences from me for his behaviour so he continued on.
He through me enough crumbs to make me think this time he would follow his words with actions but that turned out to be totally not true.
So his b’day was Sunday and I did not do as he expected I did not contact him in anyway at all about it.. I felt guilty but kept recalling his lies and why would I want to say Happy B’day to a liar??
I don’t think he has noticed that I said nothing either that or he thinks I’m playing games now to gain the power but really I’m trying to see the big picture and move on with my life and get out of the fallback girl position.. That was a great article NML thank you and apologies it is posted in the wrong spot.
@devastated
You have definitely met an EUM…the first thing which may be the best for now is to download NML’s book and start reading. You didn’t deserve this, but you can do something to prevent it from happening again in your future, if you choose to. You are at the right place at the right time. Follow NML’s suggestions and start doing things he won’t expect – change your behavior towards him – change how you treat yourself.
The No Contact Rule (NCR) is for your benefit, for you to get your feet planted on the ground again and to “get smarter” so that you start taking charge of your own life, and not feel powerless to his behavior or his EU lifestyle.
I’m sure you are a good, decent person – you deserve someone who can appreciate all those good qualities without playing games, blowing hot/cold, and managing down your expectations.
Get strong so you can get past this pain/hurt, get past this AC and on to a more worthy individual who does want to commit and build life with you and be a good partner, parent, friend, lifetime companion.
@NML
As many others here, I’ve come to rely on your posts for a new fire in my belly each week… 🙂 I too am sorry to have contributed too much in the way of personal anecdotes; it was just that the perspective and advice from the readers your site has drawn was helping me through a very difficult time. There is a lot of “relationship talk” on the web, but yours has been so on the spot, thoughtful, and just plain useful that it stood out head and shoulders above the rest. The dialogue it subsequently inspired (and continues to inspire) was equally helpful and insightful.
I also apologize for frequently straying off topic; after finding your site and reading the recent posts I had gone back and read all the archived material, and had questions regarding issues that many others had already moved past. I’m still at a very messy stage, and I can’t promise to always stay on the straight and narrow, so I wanted to take this opportunity to say thank you for the positive thoughts and feelings that came my way by the way of your site. I hope it’s OK if I say goodbye to the friends I had found here, and wish luck to those that will make new friends here in the future.
@Meant, Butterfly, aphrogirl, Anusha, Angelina, lisa, Leonine, and all the other fantastic women (and gentlemen, Brad 🙂 ) whose open hearts and minds have meant so much to me over the past few weeks:
Thanks, guys. You had welcomed me despite a story I’m not proud of and had been hesitant to relate. I credit NML’s lifesaver of a website and your genuine warmth and input for giving me the impetus as well as support for much needed change. To say that I am going to miss all of you is a huge understatement, but I do understand that I misused the venue here. I wish there were a way of seeing how your individual stories develop because healing is a process that I think is easier when shared. It helped so much to be a part of this wonderful community if only for a short time, and please know that even when not “seeing†you here I will be thinking of you and wishing you peace and resolve as you go on.
It is hard to let go of friends having forged such a strong connection, especially since the internet is much too big to hope to “bump†into you again.
Hugs and love,
Aega
Aega, a fond farewell to you and I hope all goes well inyour life from now on.
I, too, would like to say “Goodbye” to all the wonderful people I’ve come across on here. Having read NML and really taken it on board, I’m moving off into real life too now, having the powerbase in my relationship with ME firmly in my control.
I would like to thank NML for her wonderful writings and insights and to everyone else for their strippingly honest inputs, which have helped me more than anyone can ever know.
Be well every one of you, and I hope you all flourish from here on in.
Much, much love, Leonine. xxxx
i’ve been reading this blog for a while but this is the first time i’m posting a reply after reading devastated’s entry.
*HUGS* i really really feel for you. i’ve been treated in a similar vein but for much longer and i was too ignorant/stupid/in denial for too long of a time.
Hi all…
I’ve been out of the loop for awhile and just came back today to see how my ‘buddies’ are doing.
I would like to say… it is because I have recieved strength and support form all the wonderful women on this site that I have been able to get back to my life and happly. It took two years of coming here everyday of working through stuff of reading NML’s book and coming here again. I could not have done this if I was not able to tell my anecdotes, pour my heart out and get some REAL support from women who were and are going through the heart wrenching numbing experience of dealing with this time of male. I have learned such important lessons and feel a sisterhood from you all. I think this is NML’s site and she should be the only one saying what goes on here and what doesn’t!!! She is also the only one who should be saying what she likes and doesn’t like to beposted. And she hasn’t in the past two years of my experience ever complained about our out pouringss. Sometimes she has been unavailalbe and we have CARED FOR each other. If there is only five or six people posting here right now it is becuase they have created a real CONNECTION and are nurturing each other through something ultimately life and soul saving. It saddens and angers me to se that some people do not understand. Please don’t give up on each other ever! If you find a post to difficult to read, don’t read it! Sorry if this is off topic.
I’m sending love to my old friends here…lovley to see your names again.
As usual Brad..right on!!
Love peace and light to all
@de-lighted to be free
It’s great to see you on here again! I agree with all you have said, and it will be interesting to see if NML will add to our discussion on what should be posted here.
This site has been a life-saver to me, too, and if anyone was offended by anything we wrote earlier, it would have been nice to hear it at the time.
I am sad to see you go Leonine and Aega (are you leaving?), and wish you all the best.I will continue to post for a while, but much less often.
Thanks NML and all who post here for your wonderful insights. I think there has been some “chemistry” of a different kind among all of us, and it has really helped my recovery process!
Meant x
Right, I will be posting later today about the commenting ‘issue’ and the guidelines. It isn’t the first time that this has happened and I doubt it will be the last. I am setting up a specific area for people to have their personal conversations so that the comments can be used for what they were intended – letting people comment about the subject of the post and discuss the subject further.
Here are 4 posts from the last nine months or so about the commenting issue.
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/off-on-maternity-leave-commenting-policy-reminder/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/important-update-new-email-post-notification-service-plus-comment-subscription-forum-closing/ [a brief explanation on why the forum was closed – ie it wasn’t used because people used the comments box as a discussion board]
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/a-reminder-about-commenting-and-group-therapy-posts/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/change-in-advice-requests-a-note-on-commenting/
“Truth is, if you have unhealthy relationship patterns, a history of being attracted to Mr Unavailable’s and assclowns, then the reality is that you feel chemistry and attraction with people who are reflective of some negative things that you believe about yourself, love, and relationships.”
I don’t feel chemistry too often, only a few times in my adult life…. one was with the first guy I was engaged to (who cheated on me, so I broke off the engagement), then with the guy I actually married who was EU, and then this last time, a MM who mislead me to believe he was moving out, in the process of divorce, no wedding ring, etc…
So, to sit here and accept and digest that the “chemistry” thing actually ends up attracting me to guys who reflect myself and who aren’t good for me makes me really upset, but I think I have to take a good look at it so I can figure out how to find something right and real and end it with bad relationships once-and-for-all.
I don’t date a lot, and there aren’t many seemingly available guys out there, but with the help of these posts and the books by NML, and from listening to other people’s stories who have gone before me, I think I’m finally in the phase where I am ready to find a real, comfortable, compatible, two-feet-in-the-relationship guy to spend the rest of my 30 or 40 years with. I just turned 46, and I always considered myself really careful about who I fall for, but even if you fall for only 4 people in 25 years or 40, if they’re bad for you, you’re doing something wrong. No more drama, no more sadness or loneliness. I really am ready to be totally together with someone, and not just for chemistry.
I, too, apologize if I was using this site incorrectly and will try to be more attentive to the topic if I post in the future.
Thanks to everyone who helped on this journey and especially the author and founder of the site.
Hi Meant to be happy!!
Oh oh..are we all growing up and leaving the nest??
Well, just to re-iterate something someone very clever wrote along time ago…Chemistry and connections are easy, love is difficult…know what love is and get back on track..if it makes you happy and free and expands your life it’s love, if it makes you miserable and afraid..it aint love..recognize it quick and run for your dear sweet life.!
Take a week to cry, don’t pick up the phone! put some lipstick on and go find love, it’s out there waiting for you..I promise!!
xxx
NML-Thanks for your coments,I do agree that having a forum is important so it was a great idea to create one 🙂 I think it will help us to keep on topic here and we also will have a place we can go for personal stories and to ask for advice.
Butterfly,Aega and all the others that are leaving-I realy like you and have learned so much from your posts so I hope that I can still hear from you sometimes.
About the atraction(that is the topic of this post) I can happily say that mine is fading away.I just found out that my ex joined facebook too(by acident when I was searching for his mother’s email) and when I saw his profile picture I felt diferent.I still felt something but was much less than it used to be.I even thought that he didnt look so good as I used to think before(even though he looked pretty much the same as before).I can say something in me is changing,is like the “magic” is fading away and Im starting to see him on a diferent light now.I think Im geting over him 🙂
I hope this comment is relevant to the post because I agree 100% with this article. I recently met someone that I didn’t get the usual butterflies for and initially I wasn’t interested purely because of this reason.
However thanks to this blog and all of NML’s advice (which I follow religiously) I took a step back and recognised him for what he is – completely emotionally available, stable, lovely and I’m now in a very happy and committed relationship with him. And there is no fear and drama (i.e. chemistry and attraction) that I usually feel with EUM men.
Thank you NML… I think I might be cured.
Off topic post by me, responding to NML
“but if you feel that me asking people to respect the guidelines, i.e. my rules and boundaries, so that this can be an inclusive place where even *I* can comment makes this woolly and cheerleady, then I recognise that there isn’t much that can be done to please you.”
NML I have toms of respect for your words, they are awesome and helped me realize I was in a bad funk I needed out of. But, frankly, I just don’t even understand how this site got perceived to be non inclusive, especially to you, since we are all free to post with no restraints except that you might remove a comment. This makes me think I was not clear enough with my writing.
My concern is that without more clarification of off topic/ on topic, people would be worrying if their post is too long, or not enough on topic, to the point where the comments all became those of the “me too” or “he said that to me” or ” I’m gonna kick that AC to the curb ” type. Not that there is anything wrong with those comments, not at all, and that is what I call cheerleading.
But those comments alone do not add to the discussion or insight for *me* and make me feel uncomfortable because my habits change by thinking and understanding and hearing others insights, and not by affirmations. And I guess, when all I hear is affirmations/ cheerleading from people I wonder why I am still struggling, like how come I can’t just move on, get with the program and get happy. And I am truly glad affirmations work for others, or are the thing that others in that stage want to share, truly I am. They have their place to be sure.
And wooly, FTR, as I use the term is not a negative thing at all ! its a positive thing. Wooly means energy and passion, and where those things exist there is bound to be messiness and disagreement and a need to work things through. The blase indifference of not caring enough to work through the problems and disagreements is the disheartening thing so many of us have been through with the AC’s.
I think you are aware this type of site is a new frontier so to speak, and, like the frontier, it gets wild sometimes. People come here in crisis, or at the dawning stages of crisis. Some, like me, for the first time in their adult life. And that means it is bound to me crazy sometimes. That being said, this is your town, you get to play sheriff, and I am guessing it’s a new role for you. Maybe you don’t even want to be sheriff, I know I would not. Lots of sites and lists have deputies, aka moderators, just for this reason. And if I was doing this site, I would do it much like you, and let it live its way till I got uncomfortable with something.
OK, to reiterate. I am grateful for the site, and it has helped me immensely. I was throwing in my concern that without clarity of just what on topic is.. ( EUMM/AC behavior can get pretty relevant to every single post) the comment section would be a place with people worried that their experiences my not be on topic enough and thus they would hold back from sharing the relevant parts of their experiences. A clear description of what a blog is vs a forum is a good thing , since I really never really knew or thought much on the difference and there is such a desire and need to share when we are in crisis.
Regardless, this site is what it is, and has been great for me at all times; the quality of the postings, the format and the comments is way, way better than anything I have found, and I hope this site will always have a wooly and vital life of its own. I also think a section for those in crisis who want support, and/ or are worried that their writing is off topic is a great idea.
Namaste, NML, I do salute and honor you efforts, honestly. it is good work that you do.
“Truth is, if you have unhealthy relationship patterns, a history of being attracted to Mr Unavailable’s and assclowns, then the reality is that you feel chemistry and attraction with people who are reflective of some negative things that you believe about yourself, love, and relationships.”
“People who don’t have you best interests at heart and who don’t have both feet in the relationship, and who struggle to treat you with love, trust, respect, and care is who you feel chemistry with.”
Wow, good post, especially above. I guess for me this applies to EUM, an ex-spouse and an assortment of family and friends, ouch!! Not only have my hot/cold relationships been with the men in my life, they have also been wiith so-called female friends and family members. As long as I was going along with the program,their program, I was number one woman. Right now I am totally alone and rarely get phone calls. So be it, yet sometimes it is very, very painful to realize just how wrong I was in my thinking about each of the relationships.
NML, thanks for posting this.
So glad to see NML in the comments. NML, you ROCK.
To all: if you want to know how to set boundaries, look to the way she does it. Firmly, concisely, but respectfully, with an effort to accomodate all – but keeping her needs a priority. Best lesson I have learned here yet.
Bet you never knew what a soup you would be falling into when you starting this site, did ya? LOL
@ Blaise, I agree with you in regards to NML and yes, she does Rock!
On the other side of the coin is also the man that won’t necessarily come out and say “Im not good for you, or I keep telling you I cant do this etc…” but who will actually do the complete opposite because he knows you are soo invested in the illusion more so than the reality that he will HELP to create it with you. This is another way that we get taken advantage of when building castles in the sky instead of keeping our feet firm in reality and looking out for any signs or opening our eyes to see if what this man says and does is actually real. I dont know which is worse. To stay with a man who is outwardly telling you that he is no good, or the one who knows you are more emotionally invested but decides to use that instead to his advantage by telling you everything that you want to hear and not following it up with actions. I do have to say that for me, the latter was worse because it took me longer to figure out that he didn’t mean what he said. He said “I love you” because its what i wanted to hear. He said “Yeah, Im leaving the mother of my kids soon” because he knew thats what i needed to hear in order for me to stay. I look back and its so sad that someone could have used this as a tactic to keep me invested while all the while knowing that they never intended to follow through. I was taken advantage of and it hurt like hell. My emotions were his ammunition and he toyed with my feelings. Whenever I feel chemistry and attraction now I make sure to also keep myself on the ground. To not be so naive to fall for words and for my mind to not become clouded because of the chemistry. There are men out there that will tell you through words or actions what is really going on and then, there are others where you have to listen to your gut and decipher for yourself what his intentions really are. Not overestimating the attraction is key!! Thanks for the reminder NML!!! 🙂
To NML,
Thanks very much for enforcing a much needed boundary, and for setting up a social network forum in order for some of your website fans to have back and forth, personal, off topic conversations with each other, if that’s what they wish, without the rest of us having to feel like outsiders, eavesdropping on a private discussion between two people or a select few.
The social network forum is a highly appropriate and worthwhile move that will benefit some of the fans here, and its creation will help to free up the blog comments box to be used as it was intended to: which is to stay ON TOPIC according to the blog in question, adhering to the commenting guidelines.
Sweetie187 -x-
@Sweetie187 No problem at all!
@Aega Very eloquent way of putting it – thank you 🙂 Things are always evolving!
@Meant to be Happy The internet is a minefield for many and it’s part of why I have tended to let things go. I am glad that you are shifting away from your guy and focusing on you. You’ll be better for it 🙂
@Butterfly I hope that you are OK now. I see that you have posted in the forum – I am on email if you need me.
@Anusha You want him to be different and you want to believe that your initial judgement to be with him was the right one. We also like things to end on our terms and when we feel like there are questions or that we are not liked, it bugs the crap out of us. You know he’s no good for you but in knowing this, and knowing you’re better than this, it’s like ‘well why the hell does someone who is unworthy of me not want me? ok there must be something wrong with me!’ Stop throwing yourself into the oncoming traffic…
@SomethingSomethingDarkSide Keep persisting. Eventually he will tire of it or you will be so far into your own life that it won’t matter what he does because you’re too busy enjoying life and past him. Some of these guys will keep trying their luck till eternity – you just have to get on with your life and not hand over your power or attention. I have a friend who still has a guy she broke up with 8 years ago calling her periodically – she doesn’t care.
@Angelina There’s nothing in the post suggesting that someone shouldn’t be attracted to their partner or have chemistry with them. The subject of the post is about feeling chemistry and attraction with inappropriate mates on a habitual basis.
@Lisa Well I will drop her an email and let her know that the forum is there but the fact that the comments are not for personal discussions or dispensing ‘help’ that creates conflict still stands and that type of ‘posting’ is for forums, not a comments box.
@Finally Free Yep! Acceptance is key…so you can let go 🙂 Thanks for sharing!
I will finish my replies in a bit. It is dinnertime…
@NML (off topic… but I have to say THANK YOU)
That’s fantastic that you have added a forum! My intention was not to say goodbye because I was leaving, but because it appeared that so many of the people whose input had become so important to me were going to stop posting.
I am glad that you were able to dispel whatever discord seemed to have crept into the discussions here. Everyone here shares some degree of hurt or disappointment and the topics we discuss address some of the most fragile of our parts. One of the things I love the most about your site is that the positive, constructive energy of your posts has fostered an atmosphere of such acceptance and caring and tactfulness. You’ve created a safe haven for many; I’m happy to see the community continue on in the same spirit.
@NML
One more off topic post – thank you for explaining the difference between a blog and a forum. I truly did not know this information before (I am in my forties – new to some of this internet lingo), and always thought I was following the guidelines before – I have now been enlightened. Now I understand why you stopped allowing comments on some of the posts – if I had known sooner, I would have stopped the conversations that were more of a private nature earlier. And thank you for setting up the forum – much appreciated!
– and thanks for the feedback on my previous post. It’s nice to hear from you! Until I started reading your blog, I did not realize just how high on a pedestal I had put my ex. The chemistry was a strong factor in my getting involved, but not enough for the basis of a relationship. Like you said, “At the end of the day, you need someone of substance and character”, *and*, I believe, you must try to BE a person of substance and character, too, which is something I am striving to do myself.
Meant x
Butterfly, your comment has been removed. I think it’s best that you read this comment and the subsequent ones from a few months back. Any questions, drop me an email. Thanks Natalie
“Instead, the illusion and the fantasy outpace the reality till we get a nasty jolt that suddenly highlights the fact that we have become too far distanced.”
This can be applied to other things. I am going to go think about this carefully, and try to understand why this whole situation has made me cry buckets in ways that I have not done for months because it sure as hell is all tied together not just over a few words someone wrote on a page on the Internet.
Sorry Natalie. The truth is, I reacted adversely because I am now afraid to say anything in a place where such love and support was. I am afraid now, and this particular topic cuts to the heart of it all for me. I really am now going to be quiet, because I am sure no one wants to hear it if I am hurting.
I’m going to apologise also publically to Sweetie for snapping, and with that I consider that it’s closed (at least from my side).
Butterfly,
Your apology has been accepted, and like you, I too consider the matter closed.
I would reconsider your decision to quit from this site as it would be a shame to abstain from a resource that you (and many others – me included) find so beneficial.
Please believe me when I say that that I am not personally against you and it was not my desire to alienate you from drawing support from this website. The only interest I have, is ensuring boundaries are maintained and the appropriate use of the blog is upheld.
Best wishes,
Sweetie187 -x-
NML-Thanks for your coment,I indeed was tempted to go following him on facebook yesterday but hopefuly I was able to restrain myself.You are right,I would be just setting myself up for pain that way so is better continue to not know what is going on his life for now.And is funy how the atraction can come and go,one time I dont fell it much and other I do.I think maybe was atraction to the dream not to the real him.I was thinking about the past and started to miss him so I just need to remind myself how he realy is to make it go away.It bothers me that I still fell atracted to him after all that he did to me.Plus he wanting to not keep the “friendship” once I cut the “benefits” after the last broke up,realy wasnt nice.I should not even want to talk to him ever again after that,I mean that would be the normal reaction to that.But how come I can still fell atracted? I dont know much and I guess it just shows there is something wrong with me.Maybe is my low self esteem,I dont know.I just fell it should come a point after all that he did where that atraction should just disapier but it doesnt.Anyway I will work on that and at least now is getting less and not the same as used to be anymore.
Dear NML, it has been almost 1 full year of NC. I know I WILL succeed in moving on. NML, when I refused to maintain contact with my ex-slapnut, I blocked him from every number I knew how. I blocked every screen name email I knew, and eventually probably 7 months down the line he awkwardly joins the myspace group I frequent and just as randomly finds one of the posts started by me, and very randomly responds to it in a very direct, subjective, un-elaborate way. What does this show?
While I agree that this, “over the top” feeling that we seem to have for the AC/EUM gets us into “trouble” . . . I still think that there has to be some kind of attraction and some kind of common basis in order for a relationship to be carried out.
I mean, if chemistry didn’t matter, then all of the “arranged” marriage situations would work out better as well. I don’t think that a relationship can be built with someone who you don’t have something in common with.
I think there’s a difference between attraction per se and overplaying the attraction thing. It’s deffo where I got stuck, with the illusion of chemistry which literally WAS chemistry in a lab in his head.
Wouldn’t surprise me if he had some pig pheramones somewhere.
It’s when you get all hung up on it that the problems start.
NML, I reread your comment to gaynor back in April (that you linked for Butterfly), and wanted to say that the way gaynor posted, her straight-shooting, “tough guy” persona was really what helped open my eyes to the reality of what the MM was and get on with sticking to no contact…
So, I guess it takes all kinds of personalities, and certainly one person’s way of speaking will resonate well with someone while on the other hand offending another.
I just wish she was still posting. Her tough, no nonsense approach was really helpful during a time when I didn’t think I could get through this.
Felt mild chemistry, not blow-me-to-the-moon chemistry, with someone the other day, and I will only see him at my children’s functions, so it will be interesting to see if anything comes of it (in the long, long run…. as I’m in no hurry) I will keep reading the posts to help myself keep my head on straight and keep to sticking to my new found boundaries.
Let It Go
By T. D. Jakes
There are people who can walk away from you.
And hear me when I tell you this! When people can walk
Away from you: let them walk.
I don’t want you to try to talk another person into staying with you,
Loving you, calling you, caring about you, coming to see you,
Staying attached to you.
I mean hang up the phone.
When people can walk away from you let them walk.
Your destiny is never tied to anybody that left.
The Bible said that, they came out from us that it might
Be made manifest that they were not for us.
For had they been of us, no doubt they
Would have continued with us. [1 John 2:19]
People leave you because they are not joined to you.
And if they are not joined to you, you can’t make them stay.
Let them go.
And it doesn’t mean that they are a bad person it just means
That their part in the story is over. And you’ve got
To know when people’s part in your story is over so that you
Don’t keep trying to raise the dead.
You’ve got to know when it’s dead.
You’ve got to know when it’s over. Let me tell you something.
I’ve got the gift of good-bye. It’s the tenth spiritual gift,
I believe in good-bye. It’s not that I’m hateful,
it’s that I’m faithful, and I know whatever God
Means for me to have He’ll give it to me.
And if it takes too much sweat I don’t need it.
Stop begging people to stay.
Let them go!!
If you are holding on to something that doesn’t belong to you
And was never intended for your life, then you need to……
LET IT GO!!!
If you are holding on to past hurts and pains ……
LET IT GO!!!
If someone can’t treat you right, love you back,
And see your worth…..
LET IT GO!!!
If someone has angered you,
LET IT GO!!!
If you are holding on to some thoughts of evil and revenge……
LET IT GO!!!
If you are involved in a wrong relationship or addiction……
LET IT GO!!!
If you are holding on to a job that no longer meets
Your needs or talents
LET IT GO!!!
If you have a bad attitude…….
LET IT GO!!!
If you keep judging others to make yourself feel better……
LET IT GO!!!
If you’re stuck in the past and God is trying to take
You to a new level in Him……..
LET IT GO!!!
If you are struggling with the healing of a broken relationship…….
LET IT GO!!!
If you keep trying to help someone who won’t even
Try to help themselves……
LET IT GO!!!
If you’re feeling depressed and stressed ………
LET IT GO!!!
If there is a particular situation that you are so used to
Handling yourself and God is saying
“take your hands off of it,” then you need to……
LET IT GO!!!
Let the past be the past. Forget the former things.
GOD is doing a new thing for this New Year!
LET IT GO!!!
Get Right or Get Left .. Think about it, and then,
LET IT GO!!!
“The Battle is the Lord’s”
@Finally Free
Thank you. Simply thank you.
The attraction and chemistry were definitely there, but when I look back it was one of the good things about our relationship…Like NML has often stated…crumbs, that’s what I got… were crumbs…crumbs tossed occasionally, and when they were tossed in my direction, I was happy as pie…funny how we delude ourselves in thinking that the crumbs were given all the time. I am fresh out of a breakup with my EUM (5 days) and believe I am seeing the relationship for what it was…one sided, me giving, him not valuing what I did for him or who I was, broken words and promises, everything on his terms, etc etc….But my problem seems to be that I’m stuck in disbelief that I ALLOWED this to happen…even though I knew full well he was doing all those things to me…I had little self-respect boundaries and I assume little self-respect…but now i think “how could I have allowed myself to do this”. I get angry with myself…sometimes pangs of feeling a bit nauseous, at the thought that gave and I gave and I gave…and frankly, he didn’t truly value me or what I did! I got very little in return….maybe crumbs. How do you get over the anger? How do you get over the disbelief of your own actions? I feel a bit stuck, or is this normal? There are also parts of me that’s saying ‘I’ll show him”…and do all these things that I neglected to do when i was with him… On one hand I can see it’s a good thing, but on the other…it’s just the wrong motivation… the motivation should be me alone, and somehow, that’s not the case. The thoughts still come rolling in of things I did for him, or things we did together, or things where he just was a typical EUM…How does one get over being stuck like this?
Magenta…Its like ending any relationship…we need to grieve. Only ending one with a selfish con artist who manipulated us…(and they are experts!),,,is more difficult. There is actually a rehab in Florida for people wounded by these evil ones!
I ended my relationship 2 1/2 months ago and not a day goes by that I don’t think about it all..Sometimes I am angry at myself…sometimes at him..sometimes both. But, we were manipulated and brainwashed one thing…(that we are loved), and it felt great…then, we “felt” inside that something was wrong. Being in the relationship was painful too. I enjoyed being in a relationship with someone who didn’t exist!!! It was an illusion. Deep down, I did think he cared on some level..but I was confused all of the time. Thats what they do…divide and conquer..only they divide YOU.
My x portrayed himself as a “nice, sweet, clean, professional, mannerly man. But, it was all an act. And a GOOD act. Weird, but from the start I had one eye open…my gut feeling kept telling me something wasn’t right. I was married for 7 yrs and had 3 kids with a narcissist….and I was so confused…he was a jekyl hyde and his good side was SO amazing..but his dark side…which came out slowly…was AWFUL..painful.
Well, Magenta…we are alive. Look at the poor girls that Ted Bundy baited in and then KILLED!…Look at Lacey Peterson…dead. We are alive and we will forgive ourselves and go on. Remember, everything we do in life has a “pay-off” ..it fills a need at the time. I loved being in a relationship…feeling loved and cared about…and loving him.But, …now I realize that he was damaged goods and not worth the act he put on…I hope I find someone that is a good person, normal, stable and not a sociopathic liar. I will approach any new relationship with CAUTION next time. We will be friendly at first…develop a friendship…I will get to know him before I jump so quickly and let my emotions rule my reasoning!!
At the time we met, I was lonely, hadn’t time to have love and romance in my life…for YEARS…I was raising 3 kids alone and just didn’t have time to date. We met at work…and I should have listened to the majority of people there who saw him as a liar and sneak. I was too desparate for love and affection and he knew it and took advantage of me.
But, its over and I learned alot.l know that I have to rebuild my self esteem…and I am doing whatever it takes to do that…getting my body in shape…taking care of ME. When I feel good, strong, happy and secure with ME…I know that I will attract the right man..and so will you…THIS TOO SHALL PASS.
I will NEVER make the same mistake again…already have tools to help me with the next relationship.
Oh…p.s.
I did alot of stupid things when we were together..loaned him money…(when he makes 5 times what I make!) and didn’t question him when I should have…let him make decisions and control me. I ask myself..why? I just wanted a relationship so badly…that I wanted to give him my all…BUT, I learned now…that in life…with everyone..you need to set boundaries….or else, when you violate your own laws…this is where it ends up.
One thing..I am STRONGER now with everyone. I am no longer the sweet, kind person I was. People mistake kindness for weekness…no more of that for me!!
This relationship was killing me slowly..in a sense. Eventually, would have really hurt me more. I am glad its over and what didn’t kill me..made me STRONGER…stay angry.
@Sweetone
Thank you for relating…and for your words…I could so relate to everything that you said. Mine was similar…I just loved being loved too…well, the delusion of it anyway…now knowing it was crumbs. Comes on slowly doesn’t it? And we let things slide. The jekyll and hyde thing isn’t an easy one cuz you’re always confused, and never know where you stand or if everything is alright one day to the next. But yes, you are out now, and it’s a hard lesson to learn.
Like you, I have to work on the boundaries, my self-esteem and self-respect….wow, that’s a lot of work and not going to be easy! Like you, I feel like I’m not gonna let that happen again, and like you, I feel like I’m not going to be that sweet, all-accepting, all-giving person… Next time, I’ll be someone with boundaries. I’m so glad you have made it to the point of being stronger. Reading this from you and the other women here, are really inspiration.
One thing that’s become clear in the last few days for me is that I’ve ‘overestimated’ the other stuff– interests, looks, physical chemistry, getting along–and “underestimated” or “undervalued” VALUES period. I think I’m a person with values, but when it came to the other person, I shock myself when I realize that I compromised values in another person and I settled. So my work ahead also involves making values more of a priority and not let it take a back seat to ‘getting along’, ‘enjoying each other’s company’, ‘sharing interests’. NML is right: what’s the point of sharing interests, when love and respect aren’t there to begin with.
“Stay angry.” LOL! Ya, I hear ya…if that’s what it takes to make you stronger, and a better person to learn from, I hear ya… Only there is a point where anger turned toward self is not a good thing…and that’s where I am right now…my mind knows I need to turn this around…and I like the idea of getting my body in shape and healthy….so good luck to you on that!
“This too shall pass” Thank you Sweetone….again, for your reach out to me. We are all truly energy for each other with no distance in between.
@magenta – at 5 days NC how you’re feeling is entirely normal. It passes.
Long but it helped me…
Some people unwittingly choose destructive relationships over and over again. The consequences of their choices are painful and emotionally damaging, yet those that engage in this repetitive behavior never seem to learn from their experience. Instead they go from one bad partner to the next, much to the chagrin of those closest to them (including therapists) who pull their hair out trying to stop them. Why does this happen?
Traditional psychoanalytic theory offered an intriguing, yet seemingly unlikely explanation for such self-destructive relationship choices. People who choose such partners must derive pleasure from being mistreated. Simply stated, the choosers are masochistic. If the “pleasure principle” drives people, as analysts argued, certainly this behavior follows the same rules. The therapist’s task was to make the unconscious pleasure known to the patient–and then they would be free to choose a more appropriate partner.
Yet, in my years of doing therapy, I never found any client who received any pleasure at all, conscious or unconscious, from the abuse and neglect heaped on them by narcissistic or otherwise destructive partners. Rather, my clients were simply hurt over and over again. Still, the “repetition compulsion” was true enough: no sooner had a client ended with one particularly hurtful person then they found another wolf in sheep’s clothing. There had to be a good reason. Here’s what my clients have taught me over the years.
People who have not been given “voice” in childhood have the lifelong task of repairing the “self.” This is an endless construction project with major cost overruns (much like the “Big Dig” in Boston). Much of this repair work involves getting people to “hear” and experience them, for only then do they have value, “place,” and a sense of importance. However, not just any audience will do. The observer and critic must be important and powerful, or else they will hold no sway in the world. Who are the most important and powerful people to a child? Parents. Who must a person pick as audience to help rebuild the self? People as powerful as parents. Who, typically, is more than willing to play the role of power broker in a relationship, doling out “voice” only insofar as it suits him/her? A narcissist, “voice hog,” or otherwise oblivious and neglectful person.
And so it goes. The person goes in the relationship with the hope or dream of establishing their place with a narcissistic partner, only to find themselves emotionally battered once again. These are not “oedipal” choices–people are not choosing their father or mother. They are picking people they perceive powerful enough to validate their existence.
But why doesn’t a person leave when they realize they are in yet another self-destructive relationship? Unfortunately, on occasion things go well with a narcissistic partner–particularly after a blowout fight. A narcissist is often expert in yielding just enough “voice” to keep his or her victim from leaving. They grant a place in their world, if only for a day or two. The wish that this change is permanent sustains the voiceless person until the relationship regresses back to its usual pattern.
Giving up a destructive relationship is difficult. The brief moments of validation are cherished, and the person who finally leaves must relinquish the hope of “earning” more. When the person finally breaks free they are faced with an immediate and lasting feeling of emptiness and self-blame that makes them question their decision. “If only I had been different or better–then I would have been valued,” is the usual refrain. Once the old relationship is sufficiently grieved, the person immediately resumes their search for another partner/lover with the qualifications and authority to again secure him or her a “place” in the world.
Ironically, this “repetition compulsion” is hardly masochistic. Instead, it represents an ongoing attempt to heal the self, albeit one with disastrous results. The cycle repeats itself because the person knows no other way of preventing themselves from feeling tiny or immaterial.
This is exactly where therapy comes into play. The analysts were correct in at least one important matter. This repetitive behavior has its roots in childhood, the time in which “voice” and self are established. People are often aware that they are struggling to be heard, to have a sense of agency, and to be valued in a relationship, but they are unaware that this is usually the very same struggle they had with one or both parents. A good therapist reveals this by closely examining their personal history.
And so the presenting problem is redefined and broadened to a life issue–and the work begins. A therapist bears down with all the resources available to him or her. Insight is certainly one–for, as suggested above, there is much the client does not know about the depth and breadth of the problem. Just as important is the relationship between therapist and client. Simply put, the relationship must be real, meaningful, and deep. The client must learn to establish voice, and it must be appreciated by the therapist in a genuine way. For the therapy to be effective, the relationship will likely be different from every other one the client has had. Advice and encouragement, often seen as hallmarks of good therapy, are by themselves insufficient. To make headway, the therapist must partially fill the same void that the client was unconsciously hoping their lover would. The client must feel: “My therapist is someone who hears me, values me, gives me a ‘place’ where I feel real and significant.”
Once the client feels certain of this, they can begin looking for partners using more realistic, adult criteria. And they can finally free themselves from people who chronically hurt them. In this way, the self-destructive, repetitive cycle is broken.
Thank you Finally Free, very interesting and informative.
“The client must feel: “My therapist is someone who hears me, values me, gives me a ‘place’ where I feel real and significant.â€
Once the client feels certain of this, they can begin looking for partners using more realistic, adult criteria. And they can finally free themselves from people who chronically hurt them. In this way, the self-destructive, repetitive cycle is broken.”
I dont really agree with this sentence. I have been in and out of therapy since I was 16 years old (I am 33 now). I have spent most of my life choosing men that were abusive in one way or another (with a couple in between that I would actually consider having been Healthy and loving relationships). I know that I struggled most of my life in search of someone to love me. In search of someone to “hear” and “validate” me. I can honestly say that while the therapists listened and asked intriguing questions, the void inside of me was never filled. Even if I knew that perhaps my parents weren’t 100% available to me emotionally or that my father leaving caused me to have feelings of abondonment etc… that did not provide the needed tools for me to understand how to stop choosing and allowing bad relationships into my life. I understood where the void came from and how it happened, but it did not show me however, how to heal that void and nor did I feel that having a therapist who was loving and who listened and who “gave me a place where I felt safe” filled that void either.
I am not trying to say that therapy does not play an integral role in all of this. What I am saying is that I never found the “tools” necessary to have a successful relationship or what that even meant in order for me to be able to stop it from happening again and again. I knew people would always say: “you have to love yourself first” but I didnt know how to get to that place or what that was supposed to feel like or what that exactly meant. I didn’t know how to stop obsessing over the men once they were gone. I didnt know how to stop myself from wanting to just RUN into the arms of the next guy (any guy for that matter) that showed even an inkling of love and care) thus me making poor choices and not seeing red flags and or establishing boundries. I didnt know how not to crumble the minute I found out that the one i loved was about to leave me or end the relationship. I didnt know how to stop ALWAYS wanting to be in a relationship or after some man period. I realized that I felt empty and unloved and certainly not validated. And I also didnt feel that replacing one man for another or one source of love for another fixed the real problem. In fact, feeling so desperate and aching so badly for a man, for love or for a relationship shouldn’t be the reasons why we get into or want a relationship to begin with. I say this because as long as we are out there searching for a man, or “love” out of a needs based mentality, we are still subjecting ourselves to the same cycle. Even if the therapist tells you where all your dysfunctions came from and you finally realize that it was your mother or your father or your uncle or etc…. that isnt enough to show us how it is that we are supposed to go about repairing it. I am one who agrees that its important to understand where it came from, but more importantly, just tell me HOW to get better. Tell me how im supposed to overcome this now as an adult. Ok, my parents couldnt/didnt do such a great job at showing me what self esteem was all about and I was certainly too young to understand what was going on in order to give it to myself but looking back there is nothing I can do about my childhood or what caused it, but I am completely open to knowing what I can do about it now and for godsake, how to stop putting myself in these types of relationships.
For me, the repititive cycle isnt broken because I have found a partner who values and loves me or a therapist that does (certainly that helps) because for me, we are still relying on outside sources for a love that we lack for ourselves. If i dont truly love and value ME, I will always feel empty regardless of the wonderful partner I may have. And then the issue becomes, I have a great man/partner but im still not happy. And we wonder why. I am all for building my self esteem instead and not NEEDING the love and validation of another (desire and need are two completely different things) Instead, Im going for feeling completely whole and love and validated within myself first so that if you choose not to love me one day, while it will hurt, I wont feel obsessed to come looking for you nor will i blame or hate myself for the demise of the relationship. Nor will I need you to validate for me the person that I am. Those are all reactions that are attributed to low self esteem and that causes us to get stuck. Instead, I will grieve the fact that someone I loved has left me but let them go and still keep myself in tact and know that just because someone did me wrong or chooses to leave, that I am still loveable and worthy and that I will still be ok.
To me, finally having learned that I just didnt value myself enough and that that was the reason I continously got into these types of relationships in the first place was key. I used all the tools and advice on this site to get me to see this and from it I feel I emerged a much stronger woman knowing that it was ok to put me first (in fact, its a must). That its ok to establish boundries (in fact its a must have!). That we have to take it slow and not get caught up in chemistry and attraction alone, and forget about all the other important things. That we have to not rely so heavily on someone’s elses opinion and love for us, that we must come to the well full not empty. That while we all seek to be loved and cherished and to find a partner to share our lives with, we must also posess the qualities that that partner will reflect back to us in ourselves first. That the good healthy relationship I was always searching for, was the relationship that i just didnt have with my SELF.
If we are full of love and we value ourselves, our partners will too. If we are empty, lonely, need to fill a void etc, we will always encounter partners/relationships that are less than satisfactory because we have not nipped the problem in the bud. We have put band aids around an issue that does not dwell in another, the issue dwells within is us and therefore so does the answer and so does the love that we so desperately seek. The whole point that NML states over and over again (some of us see it, others dont) is that its not about the “guy” and why he did it or why he hurt us or why the relationship didnt work out. Its about “us”. What made us be attracted to these men? What made us stay so long in a relationship where we were only given crumbs, or where we were cheated on, lied to, etc..etc…. What is it within US that it made it ok to accept this? The answer (I found) always comes down to how we truly feel about ourselves. Because if we truly value and love who we are and know what we have to offer, we would never allow these types of men and relationships into our lives. For me the answer wasnt behind knowing what happened in my past. The cycle wasn’t broken because I gained that knowledge or was privy to that piece of information. The cycle was broken because I finally found a place where I could understand why I was obsessing and feeling this way and why i was choosing these types of men and where I found the tools that I needed to implement in my life in order to have more successful relationships all together. No therapist for me, provided the type of advice that I have found here. Like I said, I was told “you should love yourself first” but i was never shown HOW TO actually do it. Relationships are the catalyst that is used to teach us about us. This is the place where we learn who WE ARE in relationship to someone else. If what we see or what we feel is not what we like or hoped for, its not only about changing partners its about changing ourselves so that we choose better next time. Its about changing all the negative false beliefs that we gathered all the way into our adult years and chipping away at them one at a time until we can stand in front of ourselves and say: Yeah, I like who I am and what someone else thinks or feels isn’t going to change that but they can certainly join me in feeling this way and reinforcing and reflecting back to me what I already know to be true. Only then is the cycle truly broken because you no longer NEED an outside source to fill that void. We instead come to relationships with no void at all. And isnt that setting ourselves up for a better chance to have better relationships rather than seeking relationships in hopes that this time it will be a better person or chance to fill a void?
PS: The overall reason for my post was to show that mostly all destructive behaviours and patterns can be linked back to the lack of love and relationship that we have with “ourselves”. That is why we keep going back for more or keep choosing the same types of partners over and over again although they cause us pain. We don’t know any better than what we are comfortable with and so therefore we continously choose partners that feel “familiar” to us even if they are indeed hurtful one’s. We are told that its the guy or the relationship that needs to change or the city where you live, or that you need to go back and mend the relationship with your parents etc… all the while skirting around the REAL reason and never getting to a resolution or to break the cycle. Whether we do all of the above or not, the perception that was damaged was the one that we have about who we are in the world. Whether we make peace with those that contributed to that or not, we are still left with having to repair the damage that was done to our “self” and that can only be achieved by learning to finally accept and love who we are regardless of what others did to us. After all, we live in a dysfunctional society and so none of us really get to escape dysfunction in some form or another. We instead have to learn to repair the damage and learn to love who we are despite it.
I believe in therapy and I was not in anyway trying to invalidate that. I just wanted to clarify and hope that it didnt come across that way! 😉
Finally Free and Karen- Very nice and informative posts.I have the same problem as Karen,I know where my problem come from but I didnt know how to fix it.We hear a lot that we have to love ourselves but to us that arent used to do that we just have no idea where to start.I have been reading a lot about it here and in other books so now Im finaly geting how to do it.I agree with Karen that the key to fix it is to learn to love ourselves,to fill our void with our own love so we wont lose ourselves in relationships.Isnt about finding a diferent guy(sure is important to be wise,have boundaries and pay atention on the red flags) when we chosing the next time but the most important is to change us.I think therapy is the way to show us where the problem started and to understand it but fixing it is up to us like Karen said.
NML-I guess you are right,I do wonder that.But I think what get me the most is that I keep wondering why no guy I loved ever loved me back.That is my first relationship with a EUM but thinking about my relationships patterns I tend to fall for guys that cant give me the relationship I want.I want to fell loved and end up geting involved with guys that wont make fell that way either because they are EUM like my ex or because they just not interested on me(like all the guys I got involved before him).Anyway thinking better about it not reciprocating my fellings can be a way to be EU too since is impossible to have a relationship with somebody that doesnt love you back and isnt interested in being in a relationship with you,so I guess that maybe you can say that the other guys I loved before my ex were EU too.And my point is that I want to fell loved by a guy but never realy felt that way with any guy that was on my life.So I end up internalizing that and thinking that there is something wrong with me or that is my fault that they didnt love me what end up making me fell worse.Anyway maybe Im just expecting that love from guys that just arent capable of giving me that,so like you said I have to stop throwing myself on oncoming traffic.Thanks for the insight.
What was helpful to me was identifying the root of the problem and beginning the healing from within. This was a learned behavior, we were not born like this and it started from our informative years growing up. Therapy to me is just a positive step in 1) You realize and accept you have a problem and 2) You need help in trying to fix it, otherwise I see no need for it. No one can give you a surefire direction or instruction of what will make this cycle end for you. That my friends is up to us and us alone. What works for some may not work for others when it comes to finally seeing the reality of who and what we have become and we all may not have had the same underlying root cause however, the common ground is we have come to our wits end and want out of this unhealthy pattern with these men. I had to do some serious soulsearching and heart breaking reality checks about myself before I even begun to feel relief and every truth I accepted and confronted myself with made the load easier and lighter to carry. It wasn’t one particular thing that helped, EVERYTHING and every positive outlet helped me! I am still healing and working on myself one day at a time, but the truth is the light! We have a choice everyday when we wake on how much power and thought we will give them and if it today wasn’t a good one and we failed to take control, guess what…? Tomorrow, GOD willing is another day to choose again! Stay positive and strong ladies! Pray & believe!
@Karen
I can relate when you say we hear over and over again we need to love and respect ourselves first. But over the years, I’d feel like screaming sometimes “How do you learn how to do that?!” when you’ve spent your whole life approaching love and relationships in a very dysfunctional way…and when this is all you know??
I looked for answers in therapy, in spiritual books, in self-help books….which all helped, but always felt like there was some big missing piece. I came to this website and WHAM…NOWHERE have the answers been ever more clear …FINALLY I’m putting the pieces together. FINALLY, clarity of knowing HOW I can start loving and respecting myself, and putting priority on values.
Really all seems so common sense doesn’t it? But tell it to someone like many of us, in this trance and head in the clouds…not being able to see past the pain and hurt feelings..repeating the same mistakes. NML’s posts somehow powerfully “slap us in the face” and shakes our brains up. What a godsend. Finally waking up.
@magenta
I agree with you 100%. I have bookshelves full of self help books. I think I know and have gone to every therapist within a 25 mile radius of where I live. I have gone to seminars and workshops and even had changed my major once in college to “Psychology” all in hopes in finding the answers. I finally found them here as well. This site truly saved my life and I only wish I could have found it sooner. I am a completely different woman (a better woman) because of it. I’m so glad to be here where I am now and to see so many others that have found this site and have found the answers as well!
A million THANKS NML!!! xoxoxoxoxoxo
This site is AMAZING and I can’t express in words how it is helping me. It is a Godsend!! Thanks to NML all of you. I have been reading for quite some time and my heart goes out to everyone in our situation. I haven’t shared my story yet however, I felt compelled to share as much positive input as I can because you never know where someone’s source of strength may come from even it’s just a word of encouragement!
We don’t choose how or when we will die, but we do decide how we will live. We have to forgive ourselves for frequent drifting and continue reaching out to each other for help to see clearly the best path for us.
If a part of your past continues to haunt you and rob you of your joy, forgive. We know we can not undo the past, but with knowledge and understanding, we can let go by forgiving ourselves and everyone else that has hurt us. It is so important that we learn to forgive. You can never be happy with anger or bitterness in your heart.
No one has the power to take your happiness or keep you from being happy and at peace unless you allow it. We have to remember that we are sustained and supported by the love of God for us who wants only for our safety and goodness and to love yourself as God loves you, you must end all low self esteem behavior or it will become a way of life. May we always believe in our worth.
My EUM gave me the red flags right in the beginning, I should have listened to him:
“Don’t be so nice to me, you don’t know me!”
“Always if things start to be good, I sabotage them.*
“I push people away, that are good, maybe to protect them from me.”
“Dont be so nice, Maybe I will disappoint you.”
“I will never hurt you…physicially.”
“How can you love me, you don’t know me.”
“I might not know, how to play house”
“My last girlfriend was 23 years old, young girls don’t have expectations, they don’t want children or merry.”
“I still love my ex.” (all of them)
“Inside of me I am like 25” (he is 48)
“I feel bored in relationships very fast”
“I dont want babies”
“I am not the type to merry.”
Next time, if a guy warns me about himself, I will listen to him.
“Am I?” When I said he was very loving man.
“I am not very good at relationships.”
I too thought he was just being honest and that made me ‘fall’ for him all the more. I have often felt like I wasn’t very good at relationships with men but I thought, well then we could both maybe figure this out together. I also agree with alot that Devastated said, I really tried hard to protect myself against someone taking advantage of me or being dishonest – and he did the same as your man. He just left me dangling and disappeared.
I have felt incredibly angry and upset both with him and with myself, as if I could have foreseen the future. I guess now, I can look at it differently and see things I would say and do differently. Mostly, I would hope that I feel differently. About myself at least; I would like to value myself more and be more confrontative in the beigning. Not in a bad way but just maybe being more honest.
I really thought I had finally found someone who was honest and kind, I thought wow! this is someone worth having waited for. What I thought was his feeling anxious and shy was also maybe something else. He seemed shy, could also be interpreted as: not able to perform adequately in an intimate relationship.
Well, it’s been a year since i met him and now I am re-living the things we did or said and hopefully, trying to see them in a new and healthier light. I have spent alot of time this past year working on my childhood issues and beliefs and so that has been very valuable. I plan to keep doing that, and so far I have had good success. Therapy is also great! yeah!