Last week I wrote a few posts about hooks, which are “conscious and subconscious ‘stories’ that we tell ourselves as to why we are with someone, why we think we feel so much for someone, and why we struggle to let go of the relationship.”
They’re your ‘blind spots’ because they affect your ability to see the person in their entirety because you instead, allow these hooks to carry so much weight that they distort your perception of the relationship, them and even you.
I also talked about ‘picturing’:
This is where you take pieces of information that you hear or see (hooks), make assumptions about the person and correlate it to the rest of them, and as a result of this information and the resulting assumptions, adjust your picture of the potential of the relationship.
We then add hooks and picturing together and we come up with the potential for the relationship. Of course the problem is that while there are some elements of truth, they’re mixed in with illusions and it can seem difficult to disentangle ourselves which is why we end using the word ‘but’ a lot.
But he’s so busy at work. He’s so important and everyone wants a piece of him.
But he’s got a lot of issues he needs to deal with. He’s so kind, generous, and loving…or at least he would be without all of these problems.
We often exaggerate the ‘greatness’ and importance of these hooks because many of us are afraid of the consequences of change or the perceived cost of change. It seems more comfortable to be uncomfortable in inertia than it does to change our situations because it is uncomfortable, so we stay put and overestimate the wrong things (the hooks) to not only convince ourselves and him of our greatness, but to avoid having to do something about it and confront things about ourselves that we’re too afraid to see.
You are not an island though. Unless this relationship was a fantasy that took place mostly in your head, if you were engaging with another party, for example, an assclown or Mr Unavailable, they played to your hooks too.
I remember many moons ago when I lived in Florida for a few months and ended up being involved with an assclown that turned out to be mean and aggressive with a drink problem, plus an allergy to the truth amongst his offences. When I told him it was over, he at this point was living at my place (freeloader). I was giving him the cold freeze for the two weeks until I headed back home to Dublin and after a few days, he actually had the brass nuts to practically demand that we should continue sleeping together until I left. I actually laughed at the sheer audacity of him. While some people can do the whole slipping ’em a piece, me – when I break, I break. Sex was the last thing on my mind. He just expected to press The Reset Button and get shagging!
As I thought about hooks earlier, I realised that you can tell a lot about what the other person thinks your hooks are by what they focus on in the relationship, especially when the chips are down.
This deluded assclown thought my hook was ‘sex and passion’. He thought that even though he had lied and driven me nuts with The Dripfeed Manoeuvre and racked up a litany of black marks, the moment that I was presented with an opportunity to screw him, he assumed that I would jump on board. I screwed him alright…just not the way he intended!
Another ex Mr Unavailable that straddled the assclown fence, when he tried to get back together with me, he tapped into what he thought were my hooks ‘Security’, ‘Plans’, and even ‘Validation and Righteousness’. He talked about buying ‘us’ a house, getting me a ‘little car’, letting me do a ‘little course’ and how I wouldn’t want for anything. He started talking about the future all of a sudden where before he’d been reluctant to talk about the next hour, and it was ‘I’m an asshole. I didn’t know what I had. It wasn’t you’ and yada, yada, yada.
One of the interesting things you’ll notice which will be a sign of your own personal growth and increasing indifference is when the old hooks don’t hook you so much or anymore.
There was a time when, for instance, being secure, making plans, and getting validated would have felt like all my Christmases had come together, but actually, when he came back into my life, it turned out that the hooks were no longer attractive or effective.
As well as your own hooks, there is also the perception of the hooks that they think that they can most likely hook you back into the relationship with. They think it’s your weak or blind spot, or that it’s what you find most attractive about them. Most of this they will have picked up from a combination of what you say and do, however, just like you assume, they assume too.
This means that when you present certain qualities, characteristics and behaviours, they do their own picturing and assume the potential for them to be and do as they please.
And it’s also important to note, that particularly with assclowns and Mr Unavailables, they’ve danced this dance many times before and so in some sort of warped cloning type action, they think that because various other women they have been with who have exhibited that quality, characteristic, or behaviour, have accepted certain things from them that you’ll accept certain things. They assume they can also play to the same ‘ole hooks.
This is why the good looking guy that shags around and thinks all his ex’s were hooked on his great sex assumes that he can just jump your bones.
So looking back at the key hooks and ‘reverse engineering’ them:
Status – Position, standing, popularity, fame, money, authority, power. They talk about themselves an awful lot and give you second hand references. ‘Oh Major Joe Bloggs was saying I was one of the best people he’d ever worked with’. They invite you along (or even just talk about it) to things that will enable you to bask in their status. They’ll use the word ‘we’ to make it feel like you’re included in their status. It can even be as simple as suddenly (and temporarily) making you the focal point of their energy – you then think ‘Wow! Here he is so important/famous/popular and now he wants to hang out with little ‘ole me!’.
Security – Money, family, perceived ability to commit, their presence, having a title. They’ll litter the conversation with ‘we’, talk about how they’d like to have kids with you, buy you this buy you that, how they don’t want to be with another….even if they’ve known you a relatively short period of time. If you’ve broken up, they use the word ‘girlfriend’ or make veiled references to you being their wife. However on the flipside, this hook can be used as a weapon to prevent you from leaving as they may say you won’t survive without them, how will you manage, they won’t support the kids etc. You’ll convince yourself you can’t manage without them.
Sex & Passion – Drama, spontaneity, excitement, great in bed, sexual chemistry and attraction, ‘best you’ve ever had’ syndrome. They’ll focus their energies on trying to seduce you. Even when you’ve been out of touch for a while, they’ll suddenly send a sex text. When you try to talk to them, they try to silence you with sex and seduction. They tell you that they’re the best you’ve had or that nobody does it like you do. It’s even the stuff like ‘My wife/ex didn’t do….’ so that you leap up and offer to do whatever that was. It’s the booty calls, suddenly turning up, suddenly disappearing and reappearing, and the air of mystery. If you’ve been practically hurling yourself at him naked or telling him that you’re hooked on his sex, he will think he has you in the palm of his hand.
Pain & Problems (Sympathy & Control) – They may know you like to feel needed so make out that they can’t manage without you (even though they can). They do the whole One Time In Bandcamp and Poor Poor Pathetic Me Whine and if it’s your hook, you’ll lap it up. He may break down in crocodile tears suddenly and you’ll think he’s in so much pain or that he’s exhibiting emotion. Of course…you’ll forget what was bothering you only moments before… Remember the episode of Sex and the City where the guy told Charlotte and a whole host of women that he was bereaved and grieving and was sleeping with them all? That’s a man who hooks women on sympathy.
Propensity (or lack of) to Commit – Beware of the person that knows you’re eager to be in a relationship. Again they’ll talk about ‘we’ a lot, litter the conversations with references to the future, make casual comments that you’ll think mean more than they do. When you break up, they woo you back with talk of engagement, kids, settling down. On the flipside, knowing how much you want it, they may use it to make out that you’re failing in certain areas hence why they haven’t committed. They may say they want to commit, it’s just bad timing or whatever obstacle they’re claiming stands in the way.
Disinterest & Rejection – They know that you’re interested because they’re not and then they dangle the possibility of potentially being interested and play to your sense of rejection and use it to their advantage such as still getting sex, an ego stroke, or a shoulder to lean on.
Appearance – They know you’re blinded by their appearance so it’s quite easy – they just keep making sure that they’re looking good and may even try to make you feel grateful for their presence.
Validation & Righteousness – They know you want validation so they either starve you of it and use you chasing it to gain an advantage or, for instance, when you break up or when they need to get you back on side, they give you validation to pull you back in. Also be careful because when someone knows you’re obsessed with being right, they’ll make out that you’re wrong to keep the drama going and wrong-foot you.
Plans – They fake a future with you and you get so caught up in someone making plans with you that you miss some alarm bells that should be ringing. When they’re trying to get you back or stop you from leaving, they talk up a storm about plans…that don’t materialise.
Interest – They know you’re hooked on the fact that they’re interested in the first place and that you may even be grateful for their interest so they may imply or outright demand certain expectations be met as a result. They may also dangle the possibility of them losing interest.
Connection – Sex, common interests, sense of humour, similar jobs, backgrounds, childhoods. They know you buy into these things so they used these seemingly shared connections to blind you to other things that may not be so great. When you tell them to beat it, they’ll remind you of these connections.
Fantasy – They know you’re not on the same planet as them and that you’ve got carried away with the fantasy and they exploit that by sometimes playing to it to get what they want.
Regret – They may know that you misguidedly are blaming and shaming yourself over the relationship and feeling guilty and they use the opportunity of righting those wrongs to their advantage. They’ll basically exploit your ability to bear the responsibility for the failure of the relationship.
Just like I explained in my post on unhooking yourself, it’s all about you getting very real about the lure of the hooks and working out what is fact and fiction. What you can see here is that the other party may see the hooks and the potential very differently because you may be thinking about the potential of the relationship whereas they may be thinking about what they can get.
Just like the local drug pusher that knows you’re hooked on crack and dangles some in front of you, in a relationship where there is hooks and illusions, the other party does realise that there are benefits to dangling possibilities in front of you but they do come at a price. Don’t sell yourself short and make it your mission and responsibility to give it to yourself straight no chaser and get back into reality so that you don’t continue to be involved with someone who can tug at your hooks. Just like me, when you do get real, the hooks don’t look or seem so attractive anymore and you realise that they need to step up to the plate a hell of a lot more to be worthy of your time. That’s when you’ll quickly see who is all talk and little or no action and who is really deserving of you.
Your thoughts?
Check out my ebook on emotionally unavailable men and the women that love them, Mr Unavailable & The Fallback Girl as well as the No Contact Rule and more in my bookshop..
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Yes! I have a guy pursuing me at the moment, even though I have stated on many occasions that I am not open to a relationship. I can tell he thinks my hooks are: persistence (in and of itself), plans, security in the form of emotional intensity (always trying to find out everything about my past, and desperately trying to ‘save’ me – doesn’t believe me when I say I am fine), and looks (he is v handsome and is not afraid of reminding me of that fact). When I write this, it makes him sound creepy, when I know that he’s trying to attach to me and make me attach to him in the only ways he knows how. I can see he feels really anxious about it, as he was waiting in the wings while AC was centre stage.
I totally agree with the last part:
Just like me, when you do get real, the hooks don’t look or seem so attractive anymore and you realise that they need to step up to the plate a hell of a lot more to be worthy of your time. That’s when you’ll quickly see who is all talk and little or no action and who is really deserving of you.
It just feels like, in this post-AC climate of mine, that I am way too aware of hooks – as traps, rather than potential by-products of honourable qualities. Having said that, I know that will balance out when I heal a bit more and am more trusting and less cynical. For now, I am on my own, and in observer mode, using these ideas to see what’s going on and what’s being offered to me (and what I am offering too). It’s definitely a crucial conceptual counterweight, having been completely hooked through the cheek by the AC’s ‘You’re the love of my life’ / future talk. Geez. I was a sitter with all that!
Hi Elle, you’re absolutely right that when you get on a more even keel with trust that you won’t be so hook aware as you won’t be holding onto stuff from a negative perspective. Don’t forget to give yourself time. As for the other guy, he seems to be very hard of hearing and if anything, he needs to stop turning this into a game of cat and mouse. Stay firm!
Yes, these guys know how to hook us. They use the same techniques with multiple women. One guy who I went out with twice was a One Time in Bandcamper. He would complain to me about his soon-to-be ex wife and how she this, that, and the other, and how she was turning his daughters against him, etc. He also relied on his good looks to get him in.
Another guy used the One Time in Bandcamp technique as well. He is an astute observer of people and could tell I was searching for excitement, status, and sex appeal. He played to all of these desires in me, constantly relating these wild tales about his life, puffing himself up, keeping a harem of women around to show how desireable he was, constantly talked about his libido, but on the flip side would tell stories of health woes and other misfortunes to garner sympathy and “hook” his objects of prey. Also the interest/disinterest dichotomy was utilized. It was torture tearing myself away from him, even after he indicated he wanted nothing else to do with me. Going on two months of NC, and I’m getting so much better.
Hi Pirouette. As ever, distance gives objectivity. When you’re in the thick of it, it’s difficult to see it for what it is. Some of these guys are very practised at what they do – they have danced this dance many times before which is all the more reason why we have to be grounded and observant.
Sure I was def hooked, but I do not have to stay hooked. My biggest issue now is how to stop my obsessive thinking? I read your blog about grieving and know that I have to grieve, but it is weird that much of this was just my head. My need to feel like I was special. But really he was everything to me and I was just an option to him. I obsessed about hi8m and he obsessed about sex with me and every other girl he saw. Now I accept this reality and my rose colored glasses are off. BUT I am still trying to fill the mental void. The “sand castle in the clouds” scenario was at least a pretty place. Now it is replaced with anger and hurt. Grrrr but it feels good to know that I can cry and be angry! I deserve it and I am going to be really angry and cry if I want too. No more stifling my feelings or holding back! i deserve it. I deserve it all. He is dead to me!
Hi Lisa. You must absolutely feel your way through your feelings and work through them as it will stop you from denying yourself or the actualities of what happened. Obsessing is about looking for reasons to blame yourself and playing everything over in your mind – it’s another form of holding on but the more you process how you feel, the less you will hold on. It’s also good to examine your beliefs that are tied to this situation and also if this situation reminds you of other losses you may have experienced as this can be part of the reason why your mind is consumed with him.
Someone who uses these hooks to control your behavior and keep you around could potentially be very, very abusive (they don’t even have to be physically violent!). Be careful!
I guess we all have hooks that keep us in any relationshipS – healthy ones too. What our hooks are do tell us a lot about what keeps us returning to the EU/AC; these hooks are obviously unhealthy in these particular repationships, but I guess in a healthy relationship there are also hooks. For example, the love and care of that person is a healthy hook if it it real and actually delivered, but it’s unhealthy if love and care is sought but never actually available and is all but a figment of our imagination through picturing of him as a loving caring person, when he is actually anything but that in the relationship you are having with him.
I am thinking though, that the EU/AC must also has his hooks, those that keep him coming back to us for more, and perhaps if we also consider what his hooks are we may see more clearly what we are truly worth to these men – what they actually want from us.
For example, we too have our wily ways of drawing him in (just as he has of drawing us in); we know how to get him to show up, to gift us with his company etc.. so what bait are we flinging him that we know he will most likely bite on… sex?..an ego stroke?…a good pot of soup?! whatever it is, it should tell us something about him, about what he is really in it for?
If we can “bait the guy” with healthy bait (love, care and respect – and a good pot of soup) then this is a good sign… if we need to resort to baiting him with sex, or ego-stroking, or cash, god forbid, then that should really send us a clear message that he is not in it for the right reasons, or interested in us for the right reasons.
So, I think perhaps to consider what his hooks are can also be quite revealing for us.
I know I can get mine here in a flash if he thimks there’s might be a BJ in it for him! Though I can also get him here by just being nice and ‘harmless’ by being ready to accept the re-set, playing the game and re-assuring him that there will be no further attempt at an “uncomfortable” conversation (someone mentioned their AC/EU behaving like a caged animal during the ‘de-briefing’. That is mine to a tee! I have never put it so well as that before – but that is exaclty what his behaviour is like the minute I mention the “us” word, he acts like a claustrophobic stuck in a lift).
So, we know what hooks them and we know what chases them away and, up till now (?perhaps), we apply the hook and avoid what we know chases them away.
I love Elle’s: You need a man who can stand still in a storm. Exaclty.
Very well said Fearless. My hooks are love, care, trust, and respect and I’m getting them with everything else. If I wasn’t and I still stayed, I’d be creating pain for myself. Sex and being easy going are two key things that we often use to woo back these guys and we have to ask ourselves what it means about them and us if we have to use sex to draw them in and or sideline our boundaries. I’ve had the caged animal experience and the passive aggressive message is that if you bring up things that don’t suit me, you’ll be met with resistance, silence, and outright conflict. When you’re afraid of losing them, you’ll compromise yourself by preventing conflict so that you can hold onto them.
So very, very true Robin!
Hi Nat,
I am so sickened by all of this but so grateful. How could I have been so stupid, now learning how. I am trying not to beat myself up. I know knowledge is power. That is just one of the manuevers he used to “hook me”. He is an astute observer and has a memory from he**. I am in shock and having very painful realizations. He lives on planet me and I never even existed exept for his use. I know it’s part of the “unhooking” and healing process. I am not sure whether he is a narcisstic/sociopath, or just a AH & EUM. I know that knowledge is what I need about him and myself. I am afraid, very afraid. I know he is a very serious danger for me and if I don’t stop I won’t make it out alive. I am in pieces and trying to work on what brought me to this point. He even told me he didn’t know if he was capable of love. He has been very good at saying things, then denying or reniging on them.One of my problems is I like to be right and I will go to the very end of myself to prove it. He can’t feel anyhting, I see that now. Anything to do with him is futile, I feel sorry for him. Maybe his attraction to me is that I feel too much? I know sex is at the top of the list for him. Maybe because that’s the only thing he can feel and there is outward evidence of it at the act? How pathetic, and I was right there for him. It pains me to know I sank to such low depths but I guess that’s what it took for me to open my eyes. I hope I make it out alive and a better and wiser person for it. I’m always up for a challenge, but this is one that I wish I had sat out on. I appreciate you Natalie and all those that post there experiences, thoughts, concerns, etc. I know it is painful for all of us, but I guess as they say, no pain, no gain. Peace to all…
@Hope ful: honey don’t beat yourself up! I too, was involved with someone who hooked me with the sex. I know exactly what you are saying and feeling. You WILL move past this, you WILL feel better, you HAVE to forgive yourself and move on. This man played with you, with your emotions and its NOT your fault! I am finally over my ex and it feels great. Once you go through the stages of anger, resentment, exceptance, etc…you will so clearly that that ass clown was not worth your time, your heart or another moments thought. We have all been there–that’s why we are HERE! Nat and her blogs are so empowering (thank you Nat!!). Its exactly what I needed. Typically dead on and on time too. You will move past this, you will forgive yourself, and you will be more open to healthy relationship after. Head up sweetie, you’re on your way!!
How long does it take?????? I’m going on 7 months and I’m still not all the way over the A/C. I’ve never taken this long to get over someone.
@JJ2, I can’t answer for you and when you will get over it. In my situation the fact that I questioned things for over a year regarding my relationship, things like –was he stringing me along?, the relationship felt “unbalanced” (because it WAS), his lack of emotion when I would break it off with him (only for him to suck me back in again), then add in there catching him lying, cheating, etc. I never felt safe in the relationship. I was always questioning over and over again and making exuses for his actions not backing up his words. So mentally, I think I knew that it was never going to work out, but I kept holding out hope that it would. So when the bottom finally fell out (again), my head already knew it would, I just had to let my heart catch up. So in my circumstances it wasn’t like the wall came crashing down all at once. I had been taking it down brick by brick for a long time–knowing that it was only a matter of time before the wall that my heart was hiding behind would catch up to my head.
For the first month or so, I think I was hoping still that things could work out, that he would change his ways–but that was the fantasy I built up in my head from the get-go. When I finally realized it WAS NOT me or my fault, it was HIS loss not mine, then I was able to go through all the emotions of hurt, anger, exceptance and keep building yourself back up (and reading Nat’s awesome true words), you will start to move on, it will get better. Stop dwelling on the what you built up in your head as this ex AC being all that, because if he had been, you’d still be together. Instead of looking at how hurt you are, how much gave, blah, blah, blah, start focusing on the things he did showing who he REALLY was/is–someone who will never have a healthy, real relationship, who will only use hooks and crumbs to keep you around–is THAT what you really want? Aren’t you worth more than that??!!? Of course you are!! And deep down you know it too!! Hugs sweetie, you will get there and when you do you’ll wonder why you ever wasted your time on such an AC!
JJ2 read my post on getting over them. It takes as long as it takes and we as individuals play a big part in that length of time. The less focus on them, the shorter the time. The more your thoughts and efforts are focused on you and getting on with your life and less on analysing them, the speedier the whole process is.
Thank you for your encouragement, it gives me hope. I disagree with one of your points, “it’s not your fault”, you see I think it is. I didn’t pay attention to him, but more importantly to me. I was lost anyway, I trusted blindly and loved blindly,mixed with a lot of denial. I wanted so badly to be loved and be special. It was major overthinking, I was in super high gear for the destruction of me. Myself, something I never really paid attention to. I thought that was selfish and I was taught and received messages a long time ago that I didn’t matter. There were other things that mattered more at the cost of yourself. In the sense that as a infant and a child, yes it was not my fault I was not in a position to do that. But now, I can teach me, I don’t have to let others make my choices. I can and I will, and they will be better. So in that sense it is my fault. These men are extremely dangerous and destructive. They come through like a freight train and leave such mass destruction behind that it will make you sick. They are as powerful as any natural force of nature. Why? Because they can and WE let them. Who is left to rebuild? Only ourselves, ultimately, and I am worth it. There is no one, but no one, except our creator that can love or do what we can do for ourselves. I like the saying, “When someone hurts or uses you, it says more about them than it does you”. Pay attention to those little voices, it is you crying out. You are right, forgiveness and acceptance are key elements in healing. I need both. Peace to all ladies…
Totally agree findingmyself. I’ve been that woman – I know what you’ve both been through. One day you’ll suddenly wonder how the hell they or sex could have mattered *that* much. We mustn’t be so hard on ourselves. We need to be tough enough to get real and empower ourselves, but no so tough we become trapped in blame and shame.
Thanks Nat! I *was* that other woman too–but I am OVER it, thank god I am free!! It’s been a long, emotional roller coaster ride for many years. But I finally got off that ride and found myself again. Thanks to YOU I was finally able to do that final disconnect that I had tried and failed so many times before on my own. Your words of wisdom helped kick my ass into gear.I was finally able to see things for what they were–all talk, hooks, EU AC. Things I kind off knew already, but couldn’t quite put all my emotions and thoughts together regarding it. I was holding on to the fantasy of him and us that he helped build up in my mind. And when I was finally able to let that go, because of your words, I was free! You rock!
Nat, I have a question for you. I had been doing so well, or so I thought. Now my ex EUM is playing this card, Pain & Problems (Sympathy & Control). He is all of sudden acknowledging his past wrongs. He is now in therapy to better himself for “us”. He is wanting to change, he doesn’t want to be ‘that guy’, even though he had been that guy through our entire relationship. I guess the “new hook” is that now, after years of pain with him, he is seeking help to change that person who hurt me over and over. He is claiming that he is doing it for him, me and “us”. Honestly, I have to wonder if a person can really change when more than half of their life has past and they have many, many years (back to early childhood) to unlearn being EU…is that possible? This is my thought (for what its worth), maybe during therapy he will come to realize some things and where they originated from, but its another to change those learned traits that he he has carried with him for YEARS!! I know I shouldn’t care, I am not going back, but I do wonder what your opinion is on someone mid-life going to therapy to unlearn EU traits and actually fixing that flaw. Thanks NML!
Hi Hopeful. Don’t beat yourself up – use this to empower yourself to make different choices and create a different experience. We’ve all been there. I wouldn’t worry too much about categorising him – what you need to focus on is acknowledging your experience and doing what you need to do to move forward. Many will focus on trying to diagnose their guy with something but that’s just another way of avoiding focusing on themselves because it doesn’t change their need to change their own relationship habits. When someone tells you they are not capable of love, believe them – he knows his limitations. And of course you can make it out alive and a better person – you have options. Don’t let this guy or any other let you feel that you have no options or that they’re as good as it gets. xxx
It’s been driving me crazy…what is it about me that drew him to me? It was two weeks since I’d broken up with a ‘nice guy’…not that nice since he cheated on me. And I told the AC this. Guess that was a mistake? Because he painted himself as an ambitious creative type that was truly interested in me, and I fell for it.
His hook for me was that I was sympathetic. I was the best listener he had ever found, or so he claimed. So for 8 months he spilled all of his crap out on me, and he hardly ever cared or asked about what I was going through. And I let that happen. Basically, he used me for sex. So, I’ve spent the last few months crying over it…but the pain is starting to lessen. I just hope I can get past the bitterness. But if a guy tells you you’re ‘too nice’ for him (the AC) or ‘too smart’ (the nice guy)…then listen.
I’m going to have to work on not making myself an easy target.
or how about “you deserve better than me” – you’re damn right I do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah, there was a definate undercurrent of ‘you deserve better’ when he told me how I was too nice for him.
But it didn’t jive with his massive ego–he honestly thinks that he IS the best and is confused about how no one else (in his creative field(s)–he’s trying a few to see which stick) seem to realize that. And the more I concentrate on that, the more ridiculous I find him. He’s a total contradiction. Anyways, he probably meant that he deserved better since it seems he’s always on the prowl for the next best thing. And I was willing to overlook it all–that realization sucks.
Whatever. I do deserve better.
And when they say it, believe it!
Hi time2wiseup. Yes definitely – when they say you’re too nice and too smart, they’re giving you a heads up. Try reading this
Dear All,
thanks Nat for this post, I have myself experienced different kind of hooks in my past relationships. Needless to say, they all failed in the end.
If you don’t love a person for who they are, removing all hooks and other artificial stuff, it is doomed from the start.
But I would like to add, if they – AC, EUM, etc, need to wheel you back into the “relationship” with your own hooks, it shows that they don’t really think much of themselves.
They know that nobody loves them for who they are, so they need to hook you with their money, sex, looks etc.
They have low self esteem and a lack of inner security, but this it not our problem !!
Best wishes
X
Alice, you said: “They have low self esteem and a lack of inner security, but this it not our problem !!” This is EXACTLY what I finally figured out last weekend (after over 2 years of being used and abused and obsessing) about this man I’ve been involved with. The hook? His daughter. I believe he is sexually abusing her and I’ve been trying to “save” her. I can’t prove anything and can’t save her. I can only save me. So, Nat, what say you? Have you ever heard of a man using his daughter (and he does use her, by sending photos of her to my phone during periods of NC, etc) as a hook? What does it say about me to try to save someone I can’t save? What does it say about me when I walk away knowing in my heart and soul (with no absolute proof – my best friend is a lawyer and we both know but can’t prove) that this kind of abuse is going on???
Hi GettingOverIt. Lots of these guys use their kids, pets, mothers and whatever else they can to find a way back into people’s lives. It’s almost standard procedure with the manipulative type that try to play to the guilt factor as you will have an emotional connection to the child which gives them an angle.
Re the abuse, if you have genuine reason to believe this is happening, it would have been far more appropriate to involve social services or whatever it’s called wherever you’re based. It’s a pretty major thing to accuse someone of so while I appreciate that you’re looking for absolute proof, if you do actually think that it’s happening, then make the call. I’m assuming that you have more than a hunch and have seen things taking place that suggest that an inappropriate relationship is taking place because that’s what they need – you being able to explain what you would think that a man is sexually abusing their daughter. I don’t know how you could just ‘know’ and that’s what you need to explain because someone being an assclown to you doesn’t make them. The best way that you can save her is to report it. Leaving it any longer is only endangering her further.
Hi Alice, very, very true. It doesn’t say much for them when they have to rely on what’s in their pants, wallet etc to try to hook you back in!
Thanks everyone for all your sharing.
The last time I felt blissfully happy before everything shattered was when I felt I was pregnant and was lying in bed one morning, feeling these awesome buzzy sensations, I was so ecstatic, it was like my life had finally lined up. I knew it wasn’t ideal yet with his life but honestly thought it would come good, and I was so in love with him that I was willing to trust him on almost anything. He seemed like a good person in a bad situation and I believed it all.
I remember thinking that it was so peaceful because he had agreed to give me a couple of days to catch up with myself before we spoke again. I remember feeling this baby and thinking, you know, I guess I should call him soon as he’s the father but I was actually really thankful that everything was so calm and selfishly wanted to let that moment go on forever.
So I called him and was optimistic that things would be good but again I was disappointed – he took many hours to get back to me, up and down my moods went, mind racing with what was going on with him, etc. By the time we spoke I was already a whimpering needy mess. We didn’t really get the time together I’d hoped for although as usual I tried to be fully supportive towards him. A few days later I miscarried. He wasn’t there and my friends rallied. I sent him a one word SMS ‘Help’. He came good and went out of his way to be there for me, it helped heaps. A few days later and he bailed over some lame reason linked to the situation.
I feel like I so let myself down, and let this baby down, and that I shouldn’t have put pressure on him, I know that’s crazy but it’s like I took on all the pressure for everyone – no wonder I lost the child. I know the child has free will and decided to go but I am honestly still so devastated that it didn’t carry, and that the person who I gave my heart and soul to went with it. I know that it doesn’t excuse his behaviour and lack of conscientiousness towards me but I am just so sad and bereft over this. I feel like I screwed up big time, like I failed so many people by not being strong enough, or accepting enough, or whatever. I just wish I had a baby in my arms so that all the love that’s in my heart is reciprocated. Maybe I so desperately wanted that to bring us together in reality and it didn’t happen. Maybe that’s why I’ve been shattered over this and his absent caged animal attitude since. Actually, he’s behaved more like a wounded pig – making whining sounds and filling his own belly.
I guess I’m hooked on needing the reciprocation of love. And he couldn’t give it to me. Thanks for letting me share this, it helps with grieving the loss of everything I’d been waiting my whole life for. Dianna
Aw, honey, don’t blame yourself for the miscarriage. I’m so sorry this happened to you. You sound like a terrific person and I hope that you will be able to take good care of yourself, as you deserve.
@ Dianna
Everything you are going through and feeling and turning over in your mind is natural. I am especially angry today and feeling quite grumpy. I get so upset with myself because I keep thinking back to the past. I replay these conversations and my blood boils. I can’t stand it some days! I want to be free of these feelings, the longing for “something” to snap me out of this mental stupor! (hopefully soon, crossing fingers.) Maybe we share the same hook with wanting our love reciprocated and we are both dealing with the let down. You are dealing with the sadness and loss of child in addition to loss of relationship. Be kind to yourself and try not to take all this blame on.
I can beat myself up and I can find all kinds of fault with myself and the many things that I could of done differently, but it all amounts to me not being good enough or deserving of his real love and respect and care. I would of never been successful having a relationship with a married man! Intellectually I understand this…but my heart doesn’t for some weird reason. I know I couldn’t of done any of it differently because I was blinded by my feelings of love for him. You are not at fault either Dianna.
It just didn’t work out for us. We didn’t do anything wrong or worthy of this dissapointment. But we are going to have to hike up our britches and treat ourselves better now…I hope we both can find some peace of mind soon. Best to you!!
Dear Sweet Dianna,
Of course you’re grieving, and you’ve every right. Love you, find love for you. You don’t need a baby, man, mother, father, or anyone else to do what you can do best… love yourself like you’ve never loved before, the rest will follow…
Hi Dianna. You’re going through a difficult time where you’re grieving the loss of your baby and the loss of the relationship and it’s a lot to bear. Please don’t be so hard on yourself as miscarriages happen for all sorts of reasons and it’s rarely down to something that the woman has done. Just like not being able to progress your labour and having a c-section is not a fault of the woman – I should know! I know quite a few people who have experienced miscarriages and it’s a good idea to speak with a counselor to help you process your thoughts and deal with the grief especially as you don’t want to tie yourself up in anger because depression is unexpressed anger turned inwards. It is unfair for you to shoulder the burden of what happened – you are not superwoman. Take care x
Interesting. My ex (who is incapable of working this out consciously) cycled through all of these until he found the ones that worked with me, then he sort of dropped the less effective ones and concentrated on the one that did work- sex. This suited him as he often said that he only ever had two things in his head.,sex and fishing.
He was almost right, I remained hooked for a long long time (and still am to some extent) but my hooks were getting his attention first and sex second.
Except that I really wanted sex and an emotional connection whereas he just wanted sex and attention. Two very different hooks but I got them confused for a long time.
I love what you said and I guess it’s so true for me too. I have had sex like I never imagined with this man. It was fun, exciting, fulfilling, etc., but not real. Just more of my imagination and fantasy, and the false beliefs I held about myself and relationships. You see, I have many issues, but my #1 is, I am a sex addict, I chase it and the feeling I get from it. I use it to get their attention, their love, it gives me power, and security. They spend their time and money to get it, I am good at it, I probably could have made a very good living at it. This sounds very sick, and it is, that was my hook and they knew it. I had red lights flashing everywhere! And you know, I never realized it until just this moment, that was my biggest hook. The other problem is, it is all an illusion, nothing was real, not a bit of it, I got nothing, and it cost me plenty.The first step of change is recognition. I now have a big piece of the puzzle. Thank you Natalie, notsosadthing, and everyone. A safe place to come, bear your ugly soul without judgement, and heal it. All I wanted was a friend, he wouldn’t be one without the sex. He wasn’t one with it. I got swindled and robbed. I didn’t need a enemy, I was my own. Peace to all…
Hi notsosadthing. Great insight into how some of these guys operate. I can just imagine rooting through his box of tricks, hitting on sex and saying ‘bingo’. Sex does not a relationship make. It’s just sex at the end of the day without everything else.
YES NML!! When you walk out of the bedroom and the rest of the relationship is ‘us’ holding onto words, crumbs and carrying the load of the relationship alone–all the best sex in the world can not make-up for the majority of the missing pieces that holds a *true* relationship together.
Quite honestly, I’d rather have good sex vs “the best sex”. Hell, even good sex with trust, mutual love and respect is WAY better than “great sex”- that when you walk out of that bedroom and the only thing holding you together is under the sheets.
i love you
thank you very much for let us be confident and sure of what we think of. you ‘re amazing
Oh thank you Ghada! xx
Thank you, NML for this post. It was very insightful and I think of it as “how to deconstruct an AC”, or “how to prevent one from succumbing to the curse of the returning AC”, It helps to understand our own hooks and knowing what they think hooks us, is really a good way to prevent ourselves from falling back repeatedly under their hooks. I like this passage in particular..
“they think that because various other women they have been with who have exhibited that quality, characteristic, or behaviour, have accepted certain things from them that you’ll accept certain things.. ”
With men who have no ability to self reflect, this reinforces the idea of how static and predictable these types are. My AC’s major card was status. He knew that women’s hooks were being impressed by the glamorous well established musician he was and it helped that he was quite good looking. He knew how to make people feel important and wanted, by giving them temporary, short lived extremely concentrated attention. When he wanted to bait– get them to be interested in him, get himself into the other person’s good books, he would go out of his way to get free concert tickets and he belongs to an orchestra where every single concert they give is guaranteed to be sold out, and so we would all jump at these free tickets, prostrate to him on our knees in eternal gratitude. It was his strategy to get my friend hooked onto him, by pandering to her sense of importance.. it was his opening strategy with me too. And I thought, I am so lucky, so privileged! why should he actually go out of his way to get me a ticket? He himself has defined free concert tickets as one of the benefits of having a relatioship with him. I’m pretty cynical when I recount his behaviour now because at that time, these seemed like gestures of goodwill, kindness and affection. He got me 2nd row seats to the opera, which I was extremely grateful for because I wouldn’t be able to afford this on my own, he told me that only the wives of the former concertmasters would sit there, that the crowd knew one another and I was an addition to it. Looking back, I really recoil and am amused at how he was such an emotional con artist, not an artist, a maestro at using flattery. He also knew that I had a tendency to over sympathize and over identify, and would deliberately show me his physical injuries, act like he was helpless, accident prone, scared of my big dog, really, really harmless and clueless. I’m glad that I’m soon to be unhooked- what I’m mourning is really the loss of the own illusions I’d conjured up for myself.
Hi Jade Sesame. What you’ve described there has really accurately described the dynamic. They are alarmingly predictable, to the point where you’d almost believe there was a secret manual out there that they’re all reading…. He sounds very insincere but also very insecure!
Funny thing too, I always likened him to the Tin Man in the “Wizard of Oz”, I was partially right. This man really doesn’t have a heart though, when you knock on him he is empty, Completey void of any good emotion or act, unless it suits him. He mimicks things, he is a wizard of the dark side, and he is near genius in intelligenge, ( a hook of mine). He knows everything yet knows nothing of it, he cannot feel it, he can only see it. Science, sex and optics are of great importance to him, he sees evidence in that. Politics are one of his passions, he is a bulls**ter. He spoke truth to me, I just didn’t listen or pay enough attention to it, because he used his imagination (another one of my hooks), and jokes,(humor, another hook), to illustrate it. I tried to associate it with good, because I can see evidence and proof in love and goodness, he cannot, because he is not. He told me there was a dark side, he is that dark side. But the light always shines through, and I am the light, I will shine. Evil never wins, good always does in the end. I am nearing the end. Peace to all…
Hilarious Hopeful! Love the Tin Man reference. I’ve recently been calling him a Hollowman – not much going on in there but a lot of hot air….
I guess my hook is disinterest and rejection, as sick and sad as that sounds. My AC and I work together and for the first few weeks, he was indifferent, sort of civil and professional but didn’t seem to care one way or the other. I was the one who was cold and rejecting. After two attempts at talking, he is now hostile and refusing to speak to or acknowledge me. For some reason, this has pushed me over the edge. I literally cannot stop thinking about the conflict and what his silence means, why he won’t answer business emails etc. I have no delusions about a romantic relationship but his hostile abuse seems to have torn open the wound I had worked so hard to heal. I think my hook might actually be the drama. This really gives my head something to do and focus on and I seem to be unable to control that. Its not that I want him back. I have come to seriously dislike him and can no longer see one speck of the man I used to think he was. It just seems to be the strength of the emotions (good and bad) that I had associated with him. I am also nostalgic for the way things used to be at work – fun, flirty, exciting. Now everyday is a descent into misery, tension, stress and hostility. Once again his behaviour has robbed me of my peace of mind and I want it back. I am struggling to get off his hooks, my hooks and away from this sick relationship. I envy those whose ACs can be cut completely out of their lives.
Tina,
I have read your comments since you started writing here, and have admired your strength and insight.
From reading your previous posts, I’m afraid that in the process of healing you let your guard down a bit with this guy and started to think of him as a real human being and tried to relate to him as if he were a grown man.
But he has always been an AC, and it’s no surprise he’s being an AC now. He saw your approaching him as a chance to take your power away from you again, and he’s succeededing.
Take your power back right this minute, Tina!
Put yourself back at the center of your Universe.
(You were there before, I could hear it in your writing.)
He’s the one being *emotional*
You’re too cool for that nonsense.
Think of him and yawn with boredom.
Just be professional.
He’s the *crazy* one now. (How sad.)
You are in the power position.
Put on your seat belt and stay there.
Best,
Over It xo
Hi Tina. You also have to look at how you’re also robbing yourself of peace of mind because you’re engaging in the dynamic even with just the whole thinking about why he’s ignoring you, something which you were also doing to him. Now all of a sudden the tables have turned and in one fell swoop it’s gone from you ignoring and feeling in control to him ignoring and you feeling out of control. Best thing you can do is meet his behaviour with the same coldness and rejecting as before – nothing has changed. You’re confusing yourself and playing into his hands. Why have you gone from cold and rejecting to trying to talk to him? Be careful of getting sucked into playing games of who can ignore who the most and who gives in first. Go back to blanking him and cold turkey it out. I used to work across the room from my ex – the more I saw him for what he was, the easier it was to go about my day. It was hellish at first but it got better once I stopped concerning myself with how he was reacting to me not wanting him and his games.
Thanks everyone for your sharing.
I’ve had a bit of a shift in confidence, at first I was really concerned about talking to him but I’ve taken some good hormonal herbs, strengthened up a bit and decided to put the hard questions to him. His first reply was all a bit lame, it was my fault blah blah blah, did not want to know what was going on for me (well I knew that!).
I plucked up the courage again today to talk to him and actually feel I can laugh about him now. To be able to say to him, I’m disappointed, you’re not the person you seemed to be, you’re not a great communicator like you think you are, was great. I also pressed him to let me know whether he understood my feelings for what I went through with miscarrying and him buggering off. He actually said he didn’t wish to disclose his feelings!!! Has anyone ever encountered anyone who says ‘I never get stressed, I just go if its not working’ – how’s that for emotional absence!
But really at the end of it all it was a case of I don’t really know this man, he clearly wants me to leave him alone so he can pick another person to control and have a pretend relationship with… and if I think about my actions on the day he took off (thankfully), it was me deciding that it wasn’t fair that I was taking on all the stress and everything was going his way… and pushing him to see what he was made of.
Wow, I just got another link, that was my dad all over – his self opinion was that he was great guy that works like a trojan that people don’t listen to (but they should because he’s a hero), that emotions aren’t important, and the woman should just shut up and let him call the shots.
The EU/AC sounded hassled that I wasn’t letting him go so I said I’d leave him alone, satisfied that he wouldn’t know a feeling if it ran over him and god help the poor person he finds next. There was a small twinge when he said the future plans were still happening without me but now that picture looks quite horrid not rosy, as I based that on him being decent which was not going to happen! He was cool and weak and heavily guarded, the only thing he had going for him was that he put up with my questions (guilt no doubt that he knew he put me through grief and had a sliver of sympathy).
I just feel so much better that I spoke up to him and stopped making him more important than me (a neverending hook because when he buggers off you can never fulfil it!) and basically got my power back. He now just occurs as a strange creature that behaved badly and that I let him do it.
A final thought… when you are close to people who are unbalanced, in order to co-exist you often take on their imbalance… I wonder whether that’s what makes it hard to break away from these clowns because we’ve warped ourselves to cope with them, and now we have to un-warp and have no idea where we got to… of who we used to be before they got into our heads and twisted us around. They stay twisted, we try and get straight… many thanks, Dianna
Dianna – Thank you for sharing your experience. I am glad it was productive for you and that you came out of talking to him stronger and clearer. I had a similar debriefing with my nightmare AC that was not so good, so I guess its comforting to know that some times it works. That you can see him for what he is is the most valuable thing and sometimes the hardest part ot get. I like what you said about them being twisted and us trying to get straight. There was a time in my life when I cared so much about the emotional state of my AC. Now, I care about my own emotional state. I am trying to straighten out after too long bent completely out of shape – Debra
@ Debra
Thanks for your sharing!
Someone like this does not want to be vulnerable, does not want to lose control (high narcissism), so will never want to admit fault or say sorry or show any human rapport. If you don’t expect this of them you can use the conversation to ‘straighten out’ and see the weak and lousy behaviour that you used to put up with. It’s like a great antidote.
If you expect them to suddenly not be an AC and come good (like the false promises), that’s more illusion and the illusion has already been broken.
I guess I was lucky that my AC is fairly articulate though emotionally blocked, so it didn’t get into an argument, but if you hold your focus if you’re going to take them on and don’t expect anything of them but just learn from what you get back, then it can be liberating. I totally get though, that often no contact is much easier and more liberating if you’re feeling too susceptible.
There is no point getting nasty with them, they won’t take it, they’ll just block it and pout or retaliate so you have to be in your centre and kind of get what you came for and get out without pushing them harder than you can negotiate.
I had the experience of ‘twisting’ with an old boyfriend, who admitted long after we got together that as a child he’d been dyslexic. The reason the conversation arose is because I was approached by someone who asked me straight out if I was dyslexic, because they were dyslexic and saw some similar traits in me. I said no, I wasn’t but would think about it and mentioned it to my partner at the time who unknowingly admitted that this was his background. Without knowing I’d done it, in spending a year of my life with him and trying to get into his head, support him, work with him, I had taken on some of his dyslexia! Only about 20% symptoms, but enough to be picked up by someone astute. My language and mannerisms, the look in my eyes, speech patterns, had started to become ‘sympathetic dyslexic’. It would be the same for any mental illness or imbalance…. spend long enough around these people and you will echo their mannerisms. In the case of narcissists it creates codependents, because you can’t have two leaders all the time, so one has to be the controller and the other the victim (being us). But the victim, when untwisted, knows they are not really like this so gets into constant turmoil and power struggles because they also want to be in charge, so the ugliness begins. The narcissist tries to push you down, the victim tries to rise up, leading to years of drama and unfulfilment – let me out of here!!!!
It just helps me so much to see it for what it is, get those rose- coloured glasses fully off, then I can carry no fantasies or what-ifs, the fantasy picturing which stops me letting go, stops right there. Cheers Dianna
Dianna said “But the victim, when untwisted, knows they are not really like this so gets into constant turmoil and power struggles because they also want to be in charge, so the ugliness begins. The narcissist tries to push you down, the victim tries to rise up, leading to years of drama and unfulfilment – let me out of here!!!!”
That statement is SO accurate! I know, I lived it! The worst part being, as you are going through that drama, you can’t even see what is happening to you. I am so thankful that I was finally able to see things for what they really were–it took years for that happen-years of trying to rise up above him pushing me down. I can finally say NEVER again!
debra
Unfortunately, there is a real risk of going back for a 2nd, 3rd, 4th “debrief” and that way lies madness.
Because ultimately nothing they say can satisfactorily explain their behaviour. Even if they outright said “I don’t love you, I never loved you, I was just using you because you were convenient”, we would STILL find a way to twist it into “Oh, he really did love me BUT he had a bad childhood, his wife was being difficult, he has commitment issues. etc.”.
I say this because I have been there myself and the only thing that freed me was NC.
I only say this as I wouldn’t want other women to think that a debrief with the man concerned is the ultimate answer. We must all do what we think is best for ourselves, but seriously think before you put yourself in the path of someone who has already hurt you.
Grace, your two sentences hit home and are dead on.
“Unfortunately, there is a real risk of going back for a 2nd, 3rd, 4th “debrief” and that way lies madness.
Because ultimately nothing they say can satisfactorily explain their behaviour.”
Yes, yes, and YES! Sadly, I went past the 4th, way past it! I kept going back again, and again, and again…..oh that wicked web they weave….and those of us who get caught in it, struggling to break free from all the madness.
I’ve wanted to have the debrief as a form of forgiveness/reconciliation, but I believe what stops me each time (and I haven’t spoken to him once since he dropped me) is that I just don’t trust him with my feelings, needs and perceptions. He always saw them as threats and insults in the relationship so I think I’d rather back myself and take them elsewhere. I think if he were capable of that sort of conversation, it would have happened. I strongly suspect he would get more out of a debrief than I would.
Sometimes people closest to you can say very simple things that help you out. A few for me were:
From my ex before the AC: “You’re not missing out with this guy. [He’s a nutter.]”
From my little brother: “The reasons [why he left] are no good for you.” And: “You’re the one person who he would see as refuting his ‘perfect guy’ image so he’s never going to be fair and honest with you.”
From my older sister: “I have two words for you: ‘Run’ and ‘away’.”
From my twin: ‘What makes you think he’s at the stage where he needs to learn these lessons? They’re your lessons.’
From my father: ‘These sorts of people don’t actually want a solution. They like the impossibility.’
From a colleague: “You’re not accountable for [AC’s name]’s idiosyncracies.”
Hope they are of use! Feeling like I’ve jumped over some massive emotional hurdles with this over the past week or so. Yay me! This site and all you guys are a huge reason for that. Thanks.
@Elle – thanks for the lists of things people have told you and @Fearless – for the reasons for NC. I agree with all of them!
Have been feeling very positive and finally acheived peace over the last week, thanks to you guys and the ‘Hook’ articles. I feel i’ve made real progress and have moved on a lot. You can’t change the past – it is what it is, you can’t go back and you can’t live there in your imagination, you have to move forward and it feels SO good when you finally leave it behind you.
Hi everyone
I’m aware that speaking to the AC in a debrief can be like festering a wound, but it really depends on what helps you heal. I’m the sort of person that would rather know the truth even if it’s bad, because it helps me get clear. I wish my AC gave me credit for that, as so much of the pain I felt was because he dressed up truth and left out the bits that would have made it complete and peaceful for me, and grounded in reality not illusion.
I know a lot of people don’t find it helpful to know the ugly truth, they see no need in putting themselves in the firing line again, and to do so would be insane for them. It’s easier for them to unhook with space and no contact and letting things sort themselves out… plus of course it sends out a clear signal to him to leave you alone.
I know for me though that my brain tends to overanalyse and I found my debriefing really helped me get my thoughts in order. Plus is my case I knew he wouldn’t be contacting me again so was not trying to stop him re-wounding me again.
I think you have to know yourself and the way your brain works and how letting go works for you… and whatever you do, expect nothing from him except that he will be self-centred and only interested in himself.
Getting an apology, forgiveness, any of him time or his understanding, are just bonuses if he feels like it. I don’t think you can go in still hoping he’ll change and come good, that’s what keeps you hooked and going back for more painful rounds. For me, it was being very clear that I wanted out and just wanted answers, and that I was strong enough to face him.
I think being friends is hard – I understood through my debrief that he is very goal focussed not people focussed (except where they are dependents) so friendship isn’t really going to happen. Not because of my wounds because I know they will heal, but just because as a narcissist, he doesn’t value it.
After speaking the only thing that is left now is that I miss is some of the remnants of friendship, the shared sense of humour, memories of good times etc, and knowing that he’s not up for friendship and just have to unhook that, and find others to play with.
I love this site and by sharing this am not trying to go against what Natalie or anyone is saying about No contact, I am just saying for me my ‘reality-check’ debrief did me a world of good and has moved me forward much more than being stuck in my own head without absolute clarity, would have achieved.
I am also aware many of us at some stage have considered trying to talk to them and heal the rift and ‘suck it and see’ so am sharing that with no illusions it can be part of helping you can straighten out. I found Nat’s article on ‘suck it and see’ really helpful.
I know all of us here are moving forward but I am also acutely aware that until we reach neutrality and hold no pain any more, that there is a difference between the wound being faded and being truly healed.
I want to be able to look him in the eye if I ever run into him and not even react, and for me, I had to ask him the tough questions and place his answers very clearly in my psyche. That is truly healing it for me.
Please don’t get upset if you feel no contact is vital for you, I just knew what I needed to do and now it’s done, thankfully!
Regards, Dianna
Dianna, I am much like you. I did eventually go NC, but before I did that, I HAD to know some answers to some questions. He knew I was done with him, never to return. And before I walked away and shut the door completely, I just wanted some painful answers.
He lied so often that I knew I probably wouldn’t get the entire truth, yet I went for it anyway. He did answer some of my questions-which I already knew the truth about but he always denied. So I know he did finally come clean in a few areas. The other areas, that I am not 100% sure about, I’m still not so sure of his “honesty”.
So don’t feel that you are the only one who needed answers first. I did also, hell I still do! But now the rest of the unanswered questions don’t really matter that much anymore. I know all I need to know, he knows I know and I can move on, shutting that door, once and for all.
Dianna – Thank you for a thoughtful and compassionate post. The main difference between you and your successful debrief and me and my painful failure is that I see now that I went into it still expecting empathy from my AC. While I had completely and utterly given up on the romantic relationship, some part of me still believed in the friendship I thought was real and I went in hoping he would express remorse or at least acknowledge that he had hurt me and was sorry. I see now that that was simply expecting far too much from an emotionally stunted person. As you say, narcissists don’t value friendship, except for what it gets them. I had mistakeningly thought that because I had no romantic expectations in trying to talk to him, I had had no expectations and that wasn’t true. I wish I could go back now and redo it, as we have to work together and the situation has become so hostile and dysfunctional that I now have to resign or go to forced mediation (try and imagine a full blown AC in forced mediation!!).
You expressed beautifully that the point of your debrief was what you needed and because you were wise enough to go into it with no expectations, it had worked for you. I can see now that if I had been in that place emotionally, the debrief would have been much better for me as well.
Natalie is absolutely right – friendship with true assclowns is not only a bad idea, its actually impossible. Just as they don’t have the emotional capacity for a real relationship, they can’t do friendship, empathy, or any feelings other than anger and lust. I have now, finally, reached neutrality. I want and expect nothing from my AC, other than more assclown behaviour and that is exactly what I am getting. The reason NC works in the face of that is that I have now come to like, respect and care enough about myself to see that I don’t need a second of that in my life.
Best wishes, Dianna. I am so glad you are healing so well. You deserve the best.
@Diana – I wanted the truth too as I wanted to base my actions in truth and have my feelings based on the truth and in reality. The problem was I kept expecting the truth from a liar – knowing that he had lied to me before – feelings and all. It also was a mind-screwer because he kept “changing” how he felt about me. One minute friends, not in-love with me, next in love, didn’t want to lose me. I finally had to look at his actions, not his words. And I had to realize that he was lying to himself – therefore he was lying to me. I also believe he was a coward – he didn’t want to “hurt” my feelings – but he did more damage to my feelings by not being honest and speaking his truth. I think the biggest respect to give someone is to speak your truth – it saves alot of time and can minimize pain most of the time.
@ Aimee: quote “The problem was I kept expecting the truth from a liar – knowing that he had lied to me before” Aint that the truth sister! Same here. Like you, I wanted to base my actions in truth and have my feelings based on the truth and in reality–which is “normal” but when we are dealing with liars, and known liars at that, do we really expect to ever get the real truth? Nope. But I guess we can say we tried, it made us feel better, but the bottom line, we still questioned his “truth” because he (they) have proven to be untruthful.I guess our last ditch effort to expect them to human and have a conscience, which we know will be a cold day in hell when that happens.
I can wholly relate to wanting to get the “truth” from these guys, but I think as aimee says, what makes anybody think that someone who has never been honest with you is suddenly going to become Mr considerately truthful just because that’s what you want. What you want is not high on his list of priorities – never has been, why would it be now?
He is not going to be honest – not really, truly honest. That is not who he is, or you would not be in this position. It’s doubful that they even know the truthful answers to our burning questions about their true intentions and true feelings for us. They have shown us that already. What part did we not get?!
We may care about the truth of it all, but they don’t! We turn it over and over in our heads – they have yet to even think about what the “truth” might be.
Many years ago when I had a nightmare relationship as the other woman, my guy (unbeknown to me) was lying his ass off constantly…he insisted that he and his ‘partner’ were not sleeping together’… she contacted me eventually, when she found out about us through her ohone bill, and I told her that he had always insisted that they had stopped having sex. She told me that was a lot of rubbish and told me about them having sex on the kitchen floor only weeks previously. This occured on a particular evening, one where he was supposed to be moving out and had spent the earlier part of the evening with me… I was very naive; I was devastated by what she told me. I was madly in love wiith this guy.
I contacted him to get the “truth”… he told me she was lying… and then shortly afterwards she called me back and retracted what she had said, explaining that she had made it all up in order to hurt me because she was so angry.
I was relieved. However, after a few weeks I started to doubt everything; thought I was going mad and decided she had probably told me the truth the first time. So I worked up the gumption to contact her, which I did. She admitted that she had in fact been telling me the truth the first time and went on to say that he was so angry with her for what she had told me that he had “made her” call me back and retract what she had said.
You can imagine my confusion and anger. He lied to me. Then she told me the truth. Then he lied again. Then she lied for him. Then she told the truth, again. In the finality, he admitted to a watered down version of what she had told me in the first place.
This is what can happen when you are just looking for a simple, factual truth about an actual event never mind about what their intentions really were and what they really felt for you!! All that stuff is way too tall an order for these guys! They can’t do it! All they do is screw you up, if not right away then later!
The only sense I can see in looking for “the truth” by contacting these people is that the truth will reveal itself for you if you are speaking to them from a new realised awareness of the reality of EU/AC behaviour (a la NML). Once you have learned and know THE TRUTH ABOUT THEM, as described, for example, by NML, speaking to them is a whole new experience for you because you have now learned their language and so can now read them like a book! Once you have learned the language of the AC/EUM you will hear the truth for yourself, you don’t need them to tell you. The truth comes from your own understanding, knowledge and awareness about WHO (not what) you are in fact dealing with.
If you want to hear the truth you better learn the language. They are not going to translate for you!
Fearless- Love the line about translation. I absolutely concur – why are we suddenly expecting honesty and caring from someone who has never shown it?
I have been trapped in a growing nightmare with my AC, 3 months after going NC. We work together. After weeks of not speaking and others complaining (we work very closely together in a department of 3), we had the first “debrief”. I had given up on the relationship but still expected him to show evidence of the “friendship” he insisted he felt – nothing! At that point, I knew I had a full blown assclown, laughed at him and called him an AC. Turns out that was a very stupid thing to do. I don’t just have an assclown – I have a narcissist. When you devalue a narc, they rage. He spent the weekend rereading every email I wrote, selected the ones where I tried to explain my feelings to him and came in Monday and distributed those emails to everyone I work with and for, stating that I had “fallen in love” with him, he had rejected me and that I was now trying to destroy him professionally. He publicly called me a liar, psycho and jealous. While I freely admit I had made more of the crumbs of the relationship than I should have, he was literally trying to deny there ever was a relationship (guess we just slept together as co-workers…). One of my colleagues commented that “when you back an assclown into a corner, they grow claws”.
I love this site, I laughed the first time I read the term assclown and going NC helped me see him and the relationship for what it was. But the problem is, some of the guys have real mental and emotional problems. My mistake was in dismissing him just as an assclown. I am now paying a very dear price for that professionally and personally. I have been humiliated at work, we have reached complete dysfunction,non-communication and open hostility at work and I have been given the option of forced mediation or resignation at work. I am looking at having to sell a home I love and renovated that I only bought in February. I have to leave a country I only moved to 1 year ago because I am on a work visa. All because I laughed at an assclown for being an assclown.
Be careful when approaching these guys. Not for one minute did I think this guy would turn on me like this. I took his complete indifference to me as a sign there was nothing I could say or do to him that would hurt or impact him in any way. While he had no emotion for me what so ever, I underestimated his ego. I had mistaken his reactive attention to me (because of my interest in him) as caring and feeling and I was so wrong. Most of these guys probably are unfeeling jerks, but some have the capacity to stalk, batter or worse. Please never underestimate that. Just because they can’t feel, doesn’t mean they can feel rage.
Hi Debra, I’m appalled to read about your situation. I had to work closely with my ex after we broke up & I had to bite my tongue. Your company is right to seek mediation and I suggest you grab it with both hands. The danger is that in making assumptions about him and thinking that you could make that comment, you forgot that most people can’t handle being insulted even of it’s the truth, especially someone who at best has narcissistic tendencies and at worst is a full on narc. You guys are in a professional environment and your company is forcing you both to be professional and this is one area where you can now pull back your power because he has been incredibly unprofessional and has attempted to discredit you at work. I suggest you pull together all emails, and any other evidence of communication, put together chronologically, and go to mediation. All emails will add a context. I also suggest you see a solicitor. Although he may claim he was provoked that is no justification for his behaviour and I suggest you forget about your relationship, have no further discussion with him and focus on your life. Read your company’s policy on office relationships, dealing with conflict and ask to speak with HR or their legal representative.
In a work environment it is not worth your livelihood to persist in interactions with an ac or try to have the last word. You have both forgotten the professional side and he has exploited it. Now it is time for you to fight for your career and reputation – remember nobody will think he is normal for what he has done and will realise what an absolute asshole he is that has disrespected you, his colleagues and himself. Make no further assumptions about him and fight for your job. I’ll speak to my friend who has done HR for some of the biggest co’s in the uk and see what else you can do.
@ Fearless – Love what you wrote – it is amazing how convoluted their excuses and explanations are. Even though I tried to do the “closure” talk – it was just more mind f**king.
My old AC from 22 years ago: I finally went to his friend to ask and his friend said “you finally ready to hear the truth?” I couldn’t believe it – he confirmed every gut instinct I had had. (I wondered why he was so distant to me, the friend, and when he told me all this I realized he had to cause he knew the truth, plus he had lost respect for me cause I had tolerated it). Turns out the AC called me later that night and I said “I know ALL about you!” He said “What is that?” and I said “That’s for me to know and you to find out.” – he started admitting and confessing all this stuff his friend either didn’t know about or hadn’t told me. It hurt then – but in hindsight it is comical as hell. I played him. Remembering this I said the same thing to my current ex-AC…….
In an email I wrote “I finally know all about you and that is liberating”. He never answered that – but I know he gets to sit and ponder what I do know – and trust me he does.
I have 30 days NC from me today! Yeah!!!!!!
Hi everyone
I totally agree, not to expect truth from a liar.
What I was looking for was to get MY truth from what he was saying. Not to automatically believe his words, as they may or may not be true.
But to believe what I interpreted from them, what resonated with me, and what didn’t. To read between the lines, to put it simply.
I only ever had rose-coloured glasses with him before he left so hadn’t questioned fully at all. Now, and with the help of this site, I fully expected that there would be a bit of nonsense in his explanation and I just wanted to sift it myself. It was truly liberating!
From this context, even a no-answer is an answer because you can literally feel whether he misled you, or you had unrealistic expectations. You know if he answers too quickly, or if your body churns, that something’s not accurate.
It was purely an exercise of putting him through a lot of situational questions where I’d had a lot of angst and purely sifting what came back, with my radar on high for the way he was answering. More like detective work on reflection!
I agree, that some things you just put behind you as you’ll never know, and truly want to stop even thinking about it, but as a stepping stone to that and eventual NC, this was a really liberating exercise.
Good luck with your work situation Debra, that sounds full-on, do the right thing by your work, maintain appropriate boundaries with him and if at the end of it all your work does not support you, keep your reputation intact and trust that something else will come along. Don’t make assumptions you will lose everything, it’s not a pretty picture you’re painting. Believe in yourself and don’t let him bring you down. Let him dig his own hole, you don’t have to join him in it. Cheers, Dianna
Thanks Natalie and Dianna for your comments and support. I fully acknowledge that I have a role in the current situation. I allowed a failed personal relationship to invade work. I also see in hindsight (always 20-20) that there was no way he was going to respond positively to be disrespected, although it followed a great deal of disrespect by him to me. None of this makes it right. We are both to blame here. Like eveyone else in the world, I have experienced conflict in the workplace before and have always resolved it amicably. However, in those cases, there was always enough respect and desire on the part of both people to fix it. He has made it clear that there is nothing I could say or do that will fix this. I have told him far too honestly how little I think of him and there is no walking that back. His response, while personal and disproportionate, was his attempt to level the playing field. When there is a complete absence of trust and respect on both sides, I suspect the only resolution is for one of us to walk away. Because he has passed his probationary period and I have not, it makes more sense from the company’s perspective that it be me.
Again, in hindsight, I wish I hadn’t said it. It was a personal conversation about a personal relationship and he had asked me repeatedly why I no longer trusted him. I know that there is no hope of any kind of functional relationship but resignation should be a last resort, not just the path of least resistance. I am not certain what mediation can accomplish, given that the problem really is personal and the wounds are deep, on both sides now. We are both in our 40s and don’t really need to be told to keep personal stuff out of the work place. We just didn’t seem able to do it. More than anything, I am embarrassed that it has come to this. This has been the most destructive, painful relationship of my life and that the end of it is playing out so publicly is humiliating. I suppose there are more life lessons here (if nothing else, I must learn that no one likes to be called an assclown, even when they are one). I am trying to stop all resistance, see the situation as clearly and honestly as I can, release all expectations and accept him, myself and reality as it is (something I struggled with in the relationship itself). I have no idea what a “good outcome” would be at this point. I just dread the thought of going to work Monday morning.
Hi Debra
Be courageous and open, who knows what your work can come up with? I know you are in pain but don’t rule yourself out! Just be who you are and see what happens.
It’s interesting how we ‘test’ the AC, yours was with calling him an assclown, mine was by texting him numerous times when I was in pain and he was avoiding making time for me. I also didn’t know this would push him over the edge, as he had handled things before.
I think these ‘tests’ get created so we can really see what their limits are and what they’re really made of.
I suspect if it hadn’t been your comment, there would have been some other incident that he would get angry over and blame you for, at a later stage. Not that you didn’t contribute, of course your comment didn’t help, but he is the one not wanting to get over this and punish you for it.
It’s a part of the character, part of the control and power games, part of not taking ownership… they are just little boys really.
It’s easy to regret that maybe we shouldn’t have said what we said or did what we did because look what happened, but them wanting us to feel regret is just another hook that they are using to keep the power.
It’s amazing that power is more important to them than love or happiness, that’s why it’s the actions that count because most of them will profess that they’re in it for love but their real motivations and behaviour are much more about power, status and control.
Don’t beat yourself up, it would have happened eventually anyway in some other way with him, that’s what makes them assclowns. The reason mine gave for his behaviour was so lame I just knew there was nothing I could have really done differently, it was written on the wall. Good luck, Dianna
@debra
I truly sympathize with your situation and what you are going through. I offer the following as one who has been there and learned a painful lesson. I also work with the ex-AC and it was and is a nightmare. Like you, I love the idea of “assclown”, thought it summed him and his BS behaviour up perfectly and it was empowering to me. He wasn’t some great guy who had rejected me (and what was wrong with me)…he was a jerk who screws women around and has the emotional maturity of a toddler. It helped me break free of my obsession with him and see the relationship for what it was. The problem was that I carried that very negative image of him into work and let him know it. I began to find fault and shady behaviour in everything he did and did what I could (secretly, of course, or so I thought) to make sure others noticed his shortcomings as well. My behaviour was not mature, not professional and not fooling anyone. It became obvious that I too had to completely let go of the relationship. He was behaving professionaly and I wasn’t. I was disrespecting hm and assuming that because he was unaccountable in his personal life, he was unaccountable at work and truthfully that wasn’t entirely the case. I had to learn to compartmentalize my personal feelings for him from my professional feelings for him.
As you say, without respect and trust, it can be impossible to work with someone. You don’t have to like everyone but just because you know a great deal about someone because of a personal relationship, doesn’t mean you should automatically assume the worst about them. If you aren’t able to correct the situation at work, it will degrade even further and you will both expend more energy trying to prove to your colleagues that the other is wrong or bad or whatever. A game no one wins, trust me. I played it and lost the respect of my colleagues because of it.
Apologize for the assclown comment if you can do so sincerely (and you should probably have someone else in the room for safety, if you can). Promise to behave professionally and cordially from here on out. If possible, stop thinking of him as “assclown” (that really helped me – I used to write every work email to him with the word “assclown” screaming in my head and that translated into the message. At the time, I was almost proud of that but in hindsight it just dragged me down to a level I wasn’t comfortable with). Minimize contact and remember that you can never go wrong with choosing to be professional. It sounds like there is little chance of any revisiting of a relationship, so hating him to protect yourself doesn’t seem necessary anymore.
My thoughts are with you. I know how hard this is and how messy it can become. It is almost superhuman to expect you to completely control your feelings following one of these relationships. Like those women who share kids with their assclowns and have to tough it out for the sake of the kids, those of us who work with our ACs have to learn to put on a game face and fake it till we can honestly feel that way. Good luck – we are rooting for you!
Dear Debra and all those who have posted – The hooks are powerful and you are seeing that up close and personal. You felt that you were over him, had the hooks out and then even one conversation seemed too much. Any expectations are just too much. I don’t know if they are tests so much as just lessons we are meant to be taught. I share a child with my former EUM and it was a struggle in the early days not to say anything negative or disparaging in front of her about him. All we do is pull ourselves down to their level. I suspect everyone at your work will be willing to look past this is you are able to clean up the current situation and find a way to harmony. I lived through a couple at work having a nasty divorce and it was hard on all of us. It’s like watching our parents fight when we were young. There is something about watching two people who used to care about each other slash and hurt each other. I think if you can reach a place where you honestly want peace and calm and can express that, others will support you in getting that. It will also highlight his unprofessional stance.
Everyone makes mistakes, has bad days and is emotional (except assclowns and EUM!!). You shouldn’t beat yourself up and don’t let others shame or blame you for being human. If you accept responsibility for your part, hold him to his part and agree to move on professionally, that is all any employer can ask. You have seen absolutely who he is and what he is capable of. I totally believe you when you say you didn’t see it coming – I couldn’t have guessed the depths of cruelty, indifference and immaturity my ex was capable of until he had done it.
We want to laugh these guys off because it makes us feel better. When we are hurt and rejected, we either internalize the pain and use it to blame and hate ourselves or we externalize it and begin to hate them. The healthiest response is to see that the relationship, while doomed from the start, was just there to teach us something very valuable about ourselves. It sounds like you have a very useful (if painful) lesson here. Learn it, accept it and grow strong. The rest really will take care of itself as long as you are honest and taking good care of you. Wishing you the best. Sarah
I completely agree with the desire to have questions answered, and I am still struggling with my own lingering questions. I understand that I can’t ever expect him to provide me any answers. The way he can pop in, come on so strong, lie to me, and then basically dissapear is entirely hurtful and confusing. He asked me to love him, told me it was safe to love and trust him, and then lied and dissapeared on me…. just when I only had discovered the tip of the iceburg.
I suspect one reason he and I will never “debrief” is because he is hiding from his in-actions, he can’t face up to his wild lying, infatuated behavior, or my questions.
What my questions really boil down to is confirming the worst of what I have come to know about him via his actions. That truth doesn’t make it any easier to swallow. And, part of my desire for answers is to somehow lessen my pain, that he didn’t really “mean to” and it was not his intention, he didn’t set out ot lie to me, or hurt me, but boy that sure was what happened. It would of made me feel better just to hear that he got caught up and carried away in it all, and then couldn’t get out of it, and vacated. Than to hear what his actions told me : I never loved you and I don’t care about you – at all. I used you and tossed you out without regard for your feelings.
His absence and silence have been deafening some days for me… and especially that he knows that I fell in love with him and it didn’t even matter to him. I meant NOTHING to him. I was a means to an end for whatever ego crisis or mid-life crisis he was having at the time. Somewhere in his heart and mind, he can place me to the side, as unimportant.
Let the AC actions speak for them. I will always regret it. Always. People will say to me ” you will hear from him one day” Why do they think that? I don’t believe it for a second, and I think he is too cowardly to make it happen anyway. I look forward to not caring, but I despise him at present.
I hate it when people tell me i will hear from or bump into my ex EUM – i don’t think people should put thoughts like that in your head, it’s not productive. It’s probably true in my case, since we have mutual friends, but i would rather believe that i will never see him again. It just makes it all seem so unfinished! I’m constantly waiting for (or dreading, depending on my mood) this ‘meeting’ and wondering how we’ll both react.
@left wondering – i understand completely about wanting to hear him say he got caught in the moment and didn’t ‘mean to’, rather than thinking it was because you meant nothing. No one wants to believe that their feelings were entirely one-sided. I was exactly the same (and i know what you mean about their silence being deafening) but then i realised i was seeking validation and in a way it was easier to move forward when i told myself i meant nothing to him – it made me face reality and let go. It repulsed me that someone could have so little regard for someone else and it made me stop wanting him so much. It’s good that you are angry with him, but i understand that it’s sad at the same time, to hate someone who once meant so much to you. It does pull you in two different directions. The feeling of being in love is such a sweet one, that we don’t want to let it go, so hating them kind of feels like hurting oneself – but you can’t love for the both of you. You will feel better in time and you won’t keep wondering what the motivations for his actions were, you will just accept that it happened.
I’m really missing the big idiot today. I don’t want to be with him anymore, i don’t think it matters why he doesn’t want me or why he did what he did, or whether he ever cared for me, but i do miss the man: flaws and all. Dammit!
Tomorrow is another day!
Left wondering – I feel for you. Before I had to go to forced mediation with the AC I still work with, I did alot of reading on narcassistic personality disorder and it really helped me understand alot of things. The “blowing hot”, “golden beginning” part of the relationship is really just the narc trying to secure a new, valued supply source. It looks and feels like attraction, love, caring but it isn’t. Once the supply is secure (ie you begin to feel for him and consistently provide him with the love and support he has asked for), his interest and investment in you begins to fade. He literally gets bored or immune to you as a source and begins to look elsewhere. He never expects you to disappear as a source and expects to be able to return to it whenever he choses, but you as the source are not allowed to need him. When I began to see my AC for what he was and called him on his behaviour during our “debrief”, he went into a narcassistic rage. I, as a supply source, had devalued him and the only response he could have was to devalue me more and he did, in a very public way.
Understanding something about the disorder has helped me understand how he went from seeming so loving and attentive to (literally overnight) not caring about me. It explains why the words and actions don’t match. It explains why he made a half-assed attempt to reestablish me as a supply source when he came back to work and was honestly shocked when I didn’t cooperate. He is incapable of empathy or understanding what he feels, much less what I feel. He sees people only as a mirror for his own image.
I am not saying every AC is a narcassist. But in cases where there are narc tendencies or even full blown narcassism, there is a need for serious caution. A complete lack of emotion and empathy are serious signs, as are an inability to hold oneself accountable for one’s actions. I don’t know if you will find any answers or comfort in understanding narcassists but it actually helped me understand what I was dealing with, since I still need to interact with him on a daily basis. It also helped me,finally and completely, let go of any expectations that this person was ever going to give me anything, any answers, any human decency. Much of my pain in this situation was entirely of my own creation. I had made a meal of crumbs. I had projected all over him and come to expect honest emotion from him when he was incapable of it. The good news is that I am now in a position to stop my own pain and disengage from him in a real and meaningful way. I wish you all the best and hope you get to a state of indifference soon. I certainly understand your anger at the moment.
leftwondering,
I so feel for what you have said in the above comment. I know precisely what you mean. It’s like anything is easier to handle than that they just didn’t give a shit! And we look for excuses: ‘he didn’t really mean to be cruel… he just got carried away with all the lies…he just got himself into pickle..blah, blah…’ All probably true…but they are essentially spineless cowards to just talk a good shop. All style and no substance.
I think their “feelings” are mostly about themselves – not us. The world revolves around him! And we re-affirm that for him!
We put all our needs and boundaries down to service his – his needs and his wants, whicc are always top of the list! Thus confirming to him that he is indeed the centre of the universe – and our function is not to disrupt that ‘natural order’ and to make him feel good, even at serious cost to ourselves… and I don’t believe that he even computes the hurt and confusion he causes. He does not relate to it. You can tell them; but they just don’t get it! They can say they are sorry, but I am not sure they know what exactly it is they are to be sorry for!
I think they can intellectualise everything, but they don’t “feel” it – they have no true empathy for you.
I have had two relationships in my life that have left me feeling as you do, leftwondering, One is the current that I am trying to dump now. Did he or does he love me? Yes, of a fashion! So long as “loving” me makes him feel good! Does he love me for me; is he concerned for my welfare and well-being? No, he pays only lip-service to it. It’s not “love”, leftwondering – not as you or I experience it or understand it.
I am ever more convinced that these men don’t have the answers. You do. (They don’t even know what the questions are!! Sure, you can ask them… but they don’t KNOW what these questions are actually about, which is why they squirm and run – they do know on some level that as a grown upperson, they SHOULD know what these quetions are about – they know on some level that they are ‘wanting’)
That’s what I have come to realise: that I am better placed to evaluate the situation than they could ever be – I see my ‘hooks’ and I see his. They are very different things. You both need to have the same hooks; and without the hook of simply wanting the relationship to work – to be good – to be of value to BOTH of you.. then you are both in it for different reasons, and, as I have said before, trying to ‘work with’ these men to achieve that is like trying to climb a greasy pole – and he is carrying the can of grease and the paint brush!
If your relationship was a walk up a hill… you might want to get to the top of the mountain with him, but he just wants to stop off for picnics (and you’ve to bring the hamper!). We are at cross purposes with these guys… they have feelings for us, just not the same ones we have for them. When it comes to their relationships with women, they haven’t got a clue. Not one clue. As someone said, which I noted – ‘they screw women around and have all the emotional maturity of a toddler’ (try getting the “truth” out of a toddler if you think there’d be any point!!) That is the sad and sorry truth.
I have read all the above posts intently, as I have been wrestling with the question myself. Do I need to have a final talk with my ex to get closure and answers to my questions? I think not. I read the following today:
Choosing to forgive implies that you recognize that broken feelings cannot be mended through normal channels of communication. Loose ends will always be a part of that relationship and the emotional debt that has accumulated will never be repaid. Not being able to let go of bitterness gets us stuck in a childish approach toward life; we demand that significant others treat us well before we can be healthy ourselves.
I completely understand and respect where the various posters are coming from. I have wanted, needed, dreamt of having closure and that last discussion with my EUM that will explain everything but I know it will not be satisfying, will not answer my questions, will not give me peace of mind. Only I can do that. He couldn’t or didn’t love me (I like the information on narcissists – maybe they really can’t love at all). The rest really didn’t matter. He was just getting his needs met the way he knew how and didn’t care enough about me to think what would happen to me. Do I really need him to say that out loud for it to be real?
Sarah, no, it’s real whether he says it or not. We really don’t need these guys to explain anything to us, do we?
It looks like a duck and walks like a duck…
We have to wonder, is there anything we don’t “need” them for?!! Are we really incapable of coming to our own conclusions, our own opinions, without having to seek, nae beg for, their approval of our conclusions, like we would ever get it anyway!?
When’s the last time he called us to ask what we feel about it all and why we feel that way?? Do they give a toss what we think? I don’t they do very much. If your guys are anything lke mine they make it very plain that they do not want to hear it!
Do we really need to forgive them? Do we want them to “explain” something that we can understand and sympathise with, so we can get to forgive them? Why do we need to forgive them? Can’t we just accept that he has behaved very badly and that we allowed him to? And if he wanted forgiveness he would be asking us for it – but it seems insead of him asking, as he should be doing if he understood anything at all, we are actually begging him (or trying not to beg him) for an opportunity to forgive him, if only he would be good enough to provide us with a reason and if he doesn’t have a reason can he please give us just one excuse no matter how flimsy,please, so I can forgive you for being a total shit!
We are all intelligent adults, so since when do we need other adults (who we already know are wanting) to confirm our opinions for us?
See whatever you think it is – see whatever you think has happened – that’s what it is, that is what has happened. What it is we want them to say? Because the person who would say it is not the person who would behave like that in the first place!
The best I ever got from mine was ‘I know you are hurt and I’m sorry’ That’s as good as it gets, I think – and even after that he ran me a merry dance for another 8 years (on and off and on again and off again – of course!!). So how sorry was that?!
I had posted above that one his hooks was how great our sex life was, like no other, blah, blah…wanna know what I told him?…I said, “I already have one ass hole in my pants, I don’t need another, thanks but no thanks!” I haven’t heard from him since, YEAH!!! He said that comment was offensive, boo-hoo, like I really cared. Like all the shitty things he had DONE to me during the course of our relationship was equal with one low blow funny comment–man up!
OMG – you had me rolling with that comment!!! Can I use it? Please? Please! I can’t stop laughing!!
Yes, it’s astonishing how readily “offended” these guys are especially since it is they who dish up crap for us day and daily – but we are not supposed to notice that part, and certainly not to call them on it or they are sooooooo offended. Beggars belief.
I asked mine – by text – about what I knew was a lie he was telling… he knew it was and I knew it was… I didn’t mention the word “lie” – I asked/texted him if he would tell the truth… he texted me back, “stop calling me a liar or stop talking to me”. Oh well then… so apparently the problem was not his lying, the problem was me bringing up his lying. That was me put right!
(think I’m ‘off on one’ today and so am probably posting too many off topic comments. Sorry if it’s troublesome. Will pull in the reins now)
That’s the funniest thing I have heard in years-love it!
This is such a powerful and transforming post Nat, thank you again.
You have successfully described and pulled apart the whole Yo-yo-ing, repetitive elastic band syndrome that I had endured for years.
The hook dynamic is now so clear , we hook onto the thing we need to heal in us .In my case it was sex and attention and being noticed after a sexless distant marriage where I had learned to be lonely , disconnected, shut down and unattractive. I was also hooked by my drive to heal.
The AC actively sought out women like me . He made us feel cared for, connected , sexually ablaze , as long as we played by HIS unavailable rules and down managed expectations. But if you are dying of thirst in the desert any water tastes like LIFE , even if the oasis is just a mirage. In my case it went on for years and I kept pulling back to try and save my shredded self esteem but whenever the band got too tightly stretched between us, SNAP , back he would twang into my life.I could almost predict how long it would take him!
Naturally he was simultaneously snapping and stretching himself in all directions with multiple women. This dynamic nearly destroyed me. I watched him do it to two other women , good looking, genuine women, who were at a low point in their lives, and deeply in pain .He used them as he used me.
He used sex hooks, and connection via “so much in common” and the “deep bond” we shared. The “you are special” hook played to all those deeply held fears of being unworthy of notice. He also developed an “only you can heal me ” hook which was carefully crafted to match my Florence Nightingale drive (he used to date nurses and i am medical too) .
For my part I would actively seek to hook him by sex and connection and by my status. I also hooked him with drama (he loves watching TV soapies!) .I just needed my fix !
Seeing all this clearly now is very liberating. I have successfully avoided meeting for 6 months now and I am feeling MUCH stronger.
He approached me recently again to meet and I successfully recognised and ignored ALL the hooks he was throwing, including an invitation to come and stay with him in his beach house as we “still share a deep bond”. I then deleted all contact points and phone numbers.
THANK YOU Nat. Reading your ebook on Unavailable Men and the Fallback girl and all these posts has been deeply painful and confronting , but somehow I feel this is the oasis I was seeking !
Hi everyone
Whether they are willing to debrief and give you something to go on, or not, the fact remains that they do not know how to treat women well, or for that matter, themselves. Once our hurts stops I can truly say we will have the last laugh as we move on to healthy, supportive relationships and they… well… go nowhere forward.
Right now I actually pity the fool for even bothering to waste my time and make me believe his nonsense for the time i did. He is no wiser. And probably never will be.
For me, the future is bright and I’m looking forward to it. He will never be happy and I won’t be around to put up with it for a minute longer. I think he’s cured me from bad men. Onwards and upwards, Dianna
@ Fearless
The saying is very true and helps put things in to perspective –
“they screw women around and have all the emotional maturity of a toddler’” so true!.
@ Rosalind
You have really done your homework! NML provides excellent viewpoints, advice and feedback, but it really shows in your recent comment how you have reflected on your relationship and broken down all your hooks ….
“He used sex hooks, and connection via “so much in common” and the “deep bond” we shared. The “you are special” hook played to all those deeply held fears of being unworthy of notice.”
I resent him also because I spelled out my boundaries to him so early on about marriage and how I would never want to be a part of the downfall of a marriage or be the rebound girl. He said he was divorced 5 months at this stage and I said it was too soon to start anything new, he needed time. I even sent him an article about rebounding! I thought his coming on so strong was a red flag (felt smothered), and told him so, he brushed it off saying he had waited 20 years, of course he was excited! I was “so special” and his “dream girl”.
Bad things happen to good people all the time. It is still very hard to know that he manipulated me and hurt me and then walked out. It is still hard to believe the extent he lied to me, and the reason he did so, and I won’t ever know or understand.
@ DIanna
I have been following your story in the comments and just wanted to say that I am SO happy you are feeling better! You give me hope girl!
Thanks to all of you and especially NML!
Thank you all…one day …one day…I look forward to having this pain behind me.
Leftwondering,
you know the old saying, “All is fair in love and war”? I have a feeling that is how they think; it’s not about sharing, it’s about getting what they want any way they can – they have no rules.
Totes, @Fearless. The use of these hooks that Natalie lists are all part of a game – whether it’s based on sex, charm, status, future fantasies, fears or pity. They know the lines and the promises to make, even if they rarely work out a plan before they use them (i.e. the vast majority of people are not scheming crooks, they just subconsciously and semi-consciously know what gets them desired results).
In any event, if it is a game, then it’s just ‘bad luck’ when someone gets injured or loses out. My ex AC even told one of my friends that I was ‘old enough’ to know that this is what could happen in relationships, and that if he didn’t see me in his future then he had no choice but to end things and ‘find someone else who could make him happy’. (Never mind that he ended them in a way to make me feel actively and willingly exploited, deceived, belittled, worthless, and without a place to live!) They’re so condescending, even contemptuous, when it comes to other people’s feelings.
@Left Wondering – you will get there. When I typed my ‘story’ briefly above, I didn’t feel much of anything. It does become less painful over time, and the more you fill up your life and mind with other things, the quicker the process. It’s a forced thing at first, but your brain and heart slowly catch up. Anyway, you seem to realise all this from your tone. Having said that, it’s probably never going to be truly neutral in your case because what happened to you was so extremely deceitful, but it will just be relatively less important to you one day. I too am also going to remember that someone dangled an engagement ring in my face and then chucked me. It was a brutal end, but – with hindsight – to a relationship that was never stable. Keep being good to yourself.
Finally – here is something a cheeky Irish guy said to me recently re. being rejected by an AC:
“It’s like you’re telling me that Hitler doesn’t want to be friends with you. You should be rejoicing. Yay! (hands in air)”
Fearless–
Exactly. And the reason/basis/justification for their thinking makes NO difference. They think, “I decide I want x. Fine. I want x, and I will get x, even if getting x means getting, then hurting, y, and z…”
REmember, they always CHOOSE what they do. THERE IS NO GUN TO THEIR HEAD. They are not “forced” by “circu,stances” (or whatever!…including “past hurts” from “hurtful women” they may–or may not!!–have once “loved”).
They are selfish, to the hilt.
And, yes, the thinking does go something like, “All’s fair in love and war.” If that thoughht entered your head, it SURELY has entered theirs..and has been the basis/excuse for their behavior!
@Fearless
I also especially like “I don’t miss him, I miss who I thought he was”. And I did read up on narc’s too – thanks.
I think you are right on with how men view the rules of love, and he is a military man so I think he has become very good a detaching himself at will.
There are things he said that continue to play in my mind such as ” I need to be right” and “I’m loyal to a fault”. huh? He consistently found me to be argumentative when I would ask a direct question. I wasn’t even angry when I asked the question “what’s wrong with you?” this is right when he withdrew/went cold on me… he seemed to view everything that I said directly as argumentative. If it wasn’t sweet and sappy he didn’t participate. I guess if I had said ” hey sugar pie, how are you feeling today?” while fluttering my eye lashes then he would of communicated? another hoop to jump through to get to some reality and truth?!
He seems vacant to me on so many levels now- except- for the high high emotional level of infatuation and love. It feel like that was all he really wanted. I remember him saying how he had all these feelings going through his body just from the intense love he felt for me. I felt that too, strong sensations running thorugh me – believe there is a term for it. I know he was depressed when we started talking again, and it was very apparent to me; he even said family had been worried about/for him. It was one reason I believed he was divorced! He was at emotional low point and somehow this all helped him feel better. But, sadly, I feel it was just transferred over to me! I was at a great place in my life, and feeling better on my own than I have in 10 years.
I don’t grieve for this man or his “love”, rather I grieve that he treated ME this way, I just made the ONE BIG mistake of letting him in. I tried my best to enter into the relationship honestly and openly, he didn’t. I think it will take me longer than I would like to get over it, not because of love, but rather it feels like he wanted to hurt me. I somehow can’t wrap my head around it yet. I wonder what the heck he wanted, surely he didn’t need to do all this just to get laid…right?
I am thankful it didn’t carry on longer. I have read some posts and cringe at how much time and love was involved and I thank my lucky stars god was looking out for me, and took this man out of my life sooner.
And, although I know that he went straight back to his cheating/lying/stealing wife, maybe one day I will come to peace with it, and not feel like him running back is a reflection on me, rather what he needed to do because it was the right thing to deal with it. I just still hear this little voice that wonders what was wrong with me? Even though logically I know this person was bad news for me, short term or long term. It still stings.
This sounds similar to the situation I was in with the EUM/AC that I knew, and who I still see (as he CHOSE to attend the same church I do!). I, too, was at the highest point of my life–I had taken total control over my life, and was starting over in many ways–and here was this guy, who INTENTIONALLY saw many women at a time and BRAGGED about it to other women–the women he “dated” and the women he bragged to being in overlapping social circles–here was this guy who INTENTIONALLY managed down my expectations and kept himself at a distance while continuously leaving the door open (and writing, and emailing) his continuous (before-me, and after-me) then-gf, now-wife.
Question #1 (for me, like you): Why the intentional desire to date a woman–me or any other woman–who he KNEW he did not want any sort of future with, especially when he KNEW we ran in the same social circles, unless he had a mean streak in him?
Question #2: Why the woman he chose, and not the others? After all, she is dull, not positive, not pretty (AT ALL), and a gossip.
He IS embarrassed about how he acted. I will NEVER talk to him again, though I have years and years of seeing him in front of me ahead of me! BUt I have to say that I admire how she has this guy respecting her! He will NEVER speak to me, out of respect for her.
Why the respect for that ONE woman? And the DISrespect for all of the women who he CLAIMS to hold regard for (e.g., women who are not “easy”: women who wait, as I did, to have sex before marriage)? ESPECIALLY when she was “easy” with him before marriage.
Why the hypocrisy?
Anyways, seeing him just brings back the memories of how I felt badly for myself, at a time that was to have been the best in my life. I clearly recall how I was, the one day that he told me that he would not share a holiday with me (and this was after I told him not to take coming to my parents’ home that seriously): I cried on my bed the loudest that I had ever cried since being a little girl.
I decided then that I would NEVER have negative energy like him in my life again. NOONE has that power to make you feel that way about yourself. AND THEY DO WHAT THEY DO ON PURPOSE.
That was the LAST time I ever did that, for ANYone, man or woman.
But seeing him brings back the feeling of rejection. And he CHOOSES that I see him, b/c HE WANTS me to feel badly.
When I smile and have a great time, he stares and, once, got pissed. (He acted “reactionarily”–he darted in front of me to get somewhere before I did, so he could get the last seat! LIKE A LITTLE KID. Did he think I’d sit across from him, in a bind–sharing a seat on a couch–with someone else? NO WAYYY! I went to another room entirely!)
NML, explanations/reasons? Or is it just that some people are just cruel, hence the lack-of-empathy explanation for their behaviors?
I do notice lately that most anyone who has recently acted jerky or selfish with me never wants to think of themselves that way! People justify their behavior all the time. If you are not a jerk, you won’t even get that people do this…until you really WANT TO BELIEVE that people are capable of doing this.
People over the age of 7 know the difference b/w left and right, and right and wrong. DON’T MAKE EXCUSES FOR THEM. Think about it this way, too: Do they make excuses for you? I’d bet a lot of times that they DON’T, esp. when they are looking at you and projecting at you their own behaviors and logic!
🙂
leftwondering,
hang in there! Life is too short to spend it feeling too bad for too long… we are a long time dead…live for the here and now.
When my EUM gave me the silent treatment for not playing by his rulesmy pal would always comment, ‘oh dear, were you not wearing your fluffy bunny slippers today?’
And that’s about the size of it!
I have definitely had my ‘a ha’ moment with a five year going nowhere relationship. I have been the fall back girl more times than I want to admit. I always thought it would get better, that things would change. While I must own my part in the dysfunction, my ex has definitely done things on his own terms and has his own version of how things were between us. He has gone back and forth between me and the poor new girlfriend….cheating on both of us at the same time! Now that I am implementing the ‘no contact’ rule…..I have a problem……he lives across the street. It makes it so hard. Does anyone else have this problem? My intention is to just ignore him. I can’t move….he isn’t going to….I’m sure he thinks he’ll be able to come back one day, which is definitely not the case.
Hi everyone
@ Left wondering
Mine was the same. He was so disconnected in his intimate relationships, withholding, amusing himself elsewhere, that he had become accustomed to treating women with suspicion. The first time I didn’t treat him like he was the hero and he dropped me. I didn’t realise that I was being tested but of course if he had a choice of a new chick hassling him, or the mother of his kids hassling him, and it all sounds the same, he’ll go with what he knows (plus of course its easier with kids to stay put).
Interestingly he often repeated when he was planning to leave them. It was a big hook that kept me in it, but I can actually see now that it was NOT a promise to me, he was simply trying to convince HIMSELF of it, a bit like a pep talk. It made me think he was further along than he was, and by that stage I was already intertwined.
I just wanted a relationship and he wanted something different from what he already had. He didn’t want to work at it, that’s what his past looked like. He wanted to create a fantasy. Only problem was, I was actually in it for real. To be fair, part of him was in it for real too but only a very small part severely compromised by the rest.
We are clever women, we know when it’s too soon, we know when they’re not being consistent, we know when we’re dropping our standards constantly to fit in with him. I was saying to him for months that he was too busy. I was saying that it was a bad idea to start a physical relationship. I said that if I did it would knock my hormones around. I said that we really have to put our relationship first if a situation like this could work. And he went overboard to beat down my resistance until we were together. Only to realise that I was right all along, but not until it had brought a pregnancy, miscarriage and shattering breakup with it.
We just have to be stronger at resisting the charm, and not to doubt any future suitors who want to be with us, but that we hold our boundaries very firmly in place. The right guy will not destroy our boundaries, he will support them and want to do it right too.
Best of luck to you, Dianna