Over the past few days I’ve been pondering the whole subject of ‘unhooking’ yourself from the ‘hooks’, the stories you tell yourself about why you’re with someone, why you can’t let go of them, and even, why you miss them. As I explained, we combine the hooks with the act of ‘picturing’ which is where you “take pieces of information that you hear or see (hooks), make assumptions about the person and correlate it to the rest of them, and as a result of this information and the resulting assumptions, adjust your picture of the potential of the relationship.” It is the combination of hooks and picturing that we derive the potential for the relationship from.
I wanted to follow up these couple of posts and talk about ‘unhooking’ yourself and wrote oodles of stuff but still came back to wanting to find the simplest way possible to discuss it. Every day, here and on Facebook and on Twitter I hear from people who are holding onto illusions whether they’re in the relationship or out of it and often they know they are and yet…they’re still attached to these hooks.
When I was thinking about it on the Very Long Car Journey today (my baby niece got christened), I thought about hooks that I’ve had in previous relationships and the comments on the recent posts and I realised it was important to acknowledge something very important about hooks, picturing, and potential:
Some of the hooks are ‘true’ as in whatever it is does exist, you do or have experienced it, or the person is whatever it is that you think they are, and then some of the hooks are assumed or invented and this will have happened when you were picturing.
Even some of the ‘true’ hooks may be exaggerated or overweighted, as in you place a distorted amount of importance on them, almost compensating for the fact that in reality, there isn’t enough substance.
You also have to allow for the fact that many women in particular, are very good at taking crumbs, putting them through the low self-esteem oven, applying some rose tinted glasses, doing some picturing, and having an overblown loaf come out the other side.
For some of us, just getting the feeling of a relationship, some attention, some sex, basking in their status is enough to make us feel on top of the world. If you’ve been in the desert and not eaten for ages and someone offers you a cracker, it’ll feel like a five star meal…but it’s not. You can keep eating the crackers and seeing the mirage of a five star meal, but it wouldn’t change the fact that ultimately it’s a cracker. A crumb or crumbs are still crumbs.
Part of the reason why you’re still hooked on the hooks is that they’re a mix of fact and fiction and the two have become blurred – you don’t know where some things start and others begin.
You’re struggling to let go because even if it is flimsy, there is some truth in there…you just don’t know what it is. Just because there are grains of truth in something though, doesn’t make it actually true. You stick around because you hope that how you see things will reveal itself if you just wait around long enough. The pain that you experience is reality piercing the denial bubble. An example of how this happens:
When you experience an issue in the relationship, you try to solve real problems such as the fact that the relationship is not working, using assumptions that are tied to assumptions you’ve already made about qualities, characteristics, and values they possess.
This means that if you’re thinking about how to deal with the situation, when you think about how you think they should or will deal with it and how you will deal with it, you do this based on assumptions you’ve made about them and then formulate your response accordingly.
When you’re engaging with them and you try to get them to understand your point of view or to do whatever it is that you expect, still keeping with the assumptions means that it becomes a bit like you’re speaking Chinese and they’re speaking French and also at times it will seem like you’re talking about an entirely different person and entirely different relationship. You then feel frustrated, hurt, and confused. It’s getting conscious and reconciling the picture of how you see things with the actuality.
To start unhooking yourself you need to accept this:
You’re having a ‘relationship’, not with the person, but with the image of the relationship that you would like to have. You’re not relating to the person because if you were, you would realise that there is a disconnect between your perception of things and how things really are.
Healthy relationships with a chance of progressing require the two parties to relate to each other. When there are illusions and you’re focused on the ‘good points’ or on insubstantial stuff to the exclusion of seeing the bigger picture, it means that you’re actually relating with the images of the relationship and that person, not the actual person.
You can’t save a relationship if you’re not even trying to save a relationship that exists.
You can’t hold onto someone if you’re not even trying to hold onto a person that exists.
It’s not as easy as telling yourself that your relationship was a falsehood – you did experience something but you need to get real about what that something was and see what you’re left with. At least if you’re going to stay or work at a relationship, make sure you’re being real about it because otherwise you’re wasting time.
Take the relationship out of your head and put it down on paper. List all of the reasons why you love this person, why you want them, why you stay/stayed, why even if they’re gone you can’t let go of them and go through them one by one and ask yourself what is true, exaggerated, non-existent, or over-weighted. Remove what is untrue, reassess and re-describe anything that is exaggerated and overweighted, and acknowledge what you haven’t got out of the relationship. What did you think would happen (potential) in the relationship? What has actually happened and what is the difference between the two? The reality of your relationship – can you work with this?
How did you/do you want to feel in the relationship? These feelings are they based on them or on the image of the type of relationship you’d like to have?
It’s also good to compare the person with the positive and negative characteristics and qualities of people like your parents – you may be trying to recreate feelings with partners based on old patterns with them.
At the end of the day, whatever you have left, did you have a relationship with mutual love, care, trust, and respect with shared values and boundaries? If not, whatever is holding you there is a major sign that you may be focusing on very insubstantial things to the exclusion of what is needed for a healthy, sustainable relationship.
People have said to me: But what if the hook is true or is a value? For a start, it depends on what the hook is. Anything can be true but it doesn’t make it right for your relationship. Telling me it’s true he was a great lay, very important, kind to animals, wanted to get married is all well and good but if he was a great lay, very important, not that kind to you, and didn’t actually want to get married, there’s just no point in talking about it. They’re overvalued.
For me, unhooking myself was initially a daily act in denying myself the act of bullsh*tting me. Bad enough that someone else would lie to me, but to grieve the loss of my relationship so that I could move on, I made sure I had an honest conversation with myself and went on a bullsh*t diet.
It was tough at first, but every time I got nostalgic and felt the pull of the ‘experiences’ and ‘feelings’ that I had images of, I replaced them with a reality image. I didn’t just let myself run riot and get hijacked by my imagination – be accountable for everything that you think or imagine about this person and force yourself to see them and the relationship as they are. You deserve it…and so do they. If unhooking yourself means letting go of them and the relationship because the reality cannot work for you, at least you’re free to get into a real relationship rather than clutching at the straws of insubstantial hooks.
Your thoughts?
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This paragraph:
You’re having a ‘relationship’, not with the person, but with the image of the relationship that you would like to have. You’re not relating to the person because if you were, you would realise that there is a disconnect between your perception of things and how things really are.
REALLY hit home for me! I also went back and thought about the reality of the situation, that he didn’t care about me, my feelings, my needs, and was too self-centered to even miss me when I was gone. Now, a few weeks later, while I grieve the relationship, I see that I’m grieving what I thought was a relationship and what I thought would happen. The reality was very different, and my eyes are wide open so I don’t fall into that trap again. I especially liked what you wrote about the crumbs and the overblown loaf. Thanks again for your blog post.
“he didn’t care about me, my feelings, my needs, and was too self-centered to even miss me when I was gone”
Yes, that is me as well. Worse, I spend all my time away from him thinking about him. He just gets on with his life.
I feel such a fool. Natalie is a genius.
Hi Nat,
I think what you said below really resonated with me.
Part of the reason why you’re still hooked on the hooks is that they’re a mix of fact and fiction and the two have become blurred – you don’t know where some things start and others begin.
At the end of a break up especially if the x is an emotional wreck, you can be left extremely confused.
I know I had to spend a long time going through what had been basically dumped in my lap, which was like word salad. If I didn’t go through that which was like a relationship inventory to work out what was mine, what was his, what was real, what was not and what I had to work on for ME then I would have taken on all the blame and basically destroyed my self esteem even more. Abdonment issues generally mean you’re prepared to believe the worst about yourself and on this occasion I just was not prepared to do that to myself again because I know with out any hesitation that I was a great partner and im lovable and deserve better. Even for ages I would say to anyone who would listen “he is a really great guy but he is emotionally screwed up”
NOT true, he isn’t a really great guy; in fact he is not much at all.
Ill happily admit that I was starved of any affection, niceness, kindness and love towards me and that cracker felt like a roast dinner with all the trimmings !!!!!! + desert 🙂
Now I see the truth, the truth can hurt a little but at least it’s the truth and only the truth can set your free.
Love your work Nat 🙂
“You also have to allow for the fact that many women in particular, are very good at taking crumbs, putting them through the low self-esteem oven, applying some rose tinted glasses, doing some picturing, and having an overblown loaf come out the other side.”
It’s Sunday evening and the nostalgia for the nothingness that was the ‘relationship’ was creeping in. You start thinking about if he’ll move on easily, more quickly than you will. Funny thing is, you’re not really pining you’re just desperate to not care anymore. I was the queen of overblown loaves; because the gestures were so few, everyone had to be made more grand than it really was. When I try to write a list of what I miss, all I end up with is “I miss having a pseudo relationship”. I can’t say I miss the support, because I never felt like he was someone I could depend on; can’t say I missed the respect, because every day it seemed like he was testing my boundaries; nor the care, because my interests were not of importance – he tried to play the role, but it’s not him.
And in the end that’s what it amounts to, you know what you require and accepting any less results in emotional anorexia – not enough to sustain you, but just enough to keep the relationship alive. Not thriving or growing, just there. Reading these articles and comments helps…it’s so easy to backslide and sugar coat what you went through. Going back into the abyss would be self-inflicted punishment. For sanity and sense of self, we can’t go back, so we have to keep up the fight.
“It’s also good to compare the person with the positive and negative characteristics and qualities of people like your parents – you may be trying to recreate feelings with partners based on old patterns with them.”
Oh man, that one hit me so bad. I’d been trying to recreate the relationship my parents had with each other, and met up with my current *on-again, off-again* guy. Still, in the process of recovering and becoming my own woman, I’ve come face-to-face with the ultimate reality: somewhere along the line, some part of me has indeed moved on; whether or not my guy has truly changed or not, that doesn’t matter. Because there is the possibility that I may not be as interested anymore. And who would be, if they had to be subject to many demands and the relationship didn’t feel like it flowed naturally at all? My ultimate hook right now is keeping on to my current idea of what happened in the past (but without the bad stuff!)….
To Natalie,
These last three articles you have written about “hooks” and “unhooking” ourselves are absolutely spot on. You explain it perfectly. I have learned so much I am so grateful. The explanations you gave are what I have needed to learn and apply for so long. It’s what I have been looking for to help me understand what I was expierencing, all the thoughts, and feelings that I was not previously aware of what they really meant. Now I do quite clearly understand why it was such a difficult expierence for me and why it was so hard to figure out what was really going on with my feelings for this man. Why it was so hard to let go, why it hurt so much and why I was so tied in. With these last three articles I feel as though I finally totally get it. I can’t thank you enough for all your insight and knowledge. You have managed to put into words a very complex experience. You have explained just how to go about untangling all the knots. I got more from these three articles that you wrote then you can ever imagine. . I am forever grateful to have found you. You are a blessed and gifted person. Absoultely priceless Natalie- thank you from the bottom of my heart for all your help.
This is kind of like having your heart and your brain not match. This is where I am. My brain says, “it’s over, move on.” But my heart can’t let go, even after 7 months. I walked out, but I feel as though he walked out on me. My brain and my heart are having arguments. It’s been 7 months, I still can’t get over. Can I trade hearts with anyone?
Perfectly put JJ2!!!
Maybe thats just the grief part? even though we know the x may not be right for us we are still hurt and have to go through the pain of letting go? Its still a loss of the dreams and hope.
Exactly at that point too. I have a feeling my pain is never going to subside. Its been seven months and despite my best avoidance strategies, I do run into him at work. There is no cure it seems. Today, I resigned myself to the fact that I may never get over him. I am 35 years old and life never hurt like this.
I work with my x also, same floor and if i look up from my desk i see him. Makes it tuff but it can be done.
Juts keep pushing forwards and bring all thoughts back to you, what you need, want. hopes and so forth 🙂 Make it happen despite of him and walk through the office, tall proud and confident!!
It’s been EIGHT months for me! Exactly the same as you — head knows I have to unhook, heart/genitals just cannot let go. I call him my Meringue Man: so charming to me that he is sickly sweet, but inside, there is no substance to it. He feels nothing for me, all I am is a mirror to reflect his inflated (and undeserved) image of himself. Even though I know this I keep on flattering and praising him. I must be mentally ill.
This is such helpful information. I have strugged with a long distance relationship with a Full Blown Assclown(=pathologically dangerous relationship with either a malignant narcissist or sociopath) for about 5 years, and I can safely say that I have been to hell and back again, largely due to this sadistic jerk. I am now NC with him, and although empowering to be NC, I am struggling. You see, the Assclown I am dealing with is most likely a malignant narcissist/sociopath…I believe that he gets off on hooking women (I am probably not the only woman he has hooked, no doubt)…and like a cat playing with a mouse, he enjoys tormenting his target’s good intentions (and imaginings of what could be, “picturing”, etc)…he is a pathological liar and very diagnosable in the DSM. He is an emotional vampire, and targets those who have qualities he wishes to possess. You see, there is an entire category of assclown that is truly sadistic and pathological, and very dangerous…we are not talking “just” a player…we are talking a man who enjoys tormenting a woman after promising her a future as a couple, professing his love for her, seducing her, essentially telling her that he is creating a future with her…all to Discard and Devalue her…this is what narcissists and other pathologicals do when they have “hooked” their targets…they come on super strong and seduce/hook like there is no tomorrow, and the second they “have” you, they knock you off your pedestal and tell you that you are crazy, that you must have been mistaken, that you are competely incorrect, that they didn’t actually have feelings for you…(this is called “gaslighting” in the literature on narcissists)….the reason for my post truly is just to say thank you for all the validation, and also that women who have been subjected to such misery come from all socioeconomic levels, education levels, ethnic backgrounds….anyone can be targeted by a sociopath/narcissist….but one must read up on such pathologicals to understand the full psychological dimension that is involved in extricating oneself from such a “relationship”….there clearly is a biochemcial addiction involved….there is a “high” from the seduction ( adrenaline /dopamine surge) then there is a crash when these pathologicals Devalue and Discard….and then when AssClown attempts to re-enter the picture_-(and he always does , if you are good narcissistic supply to his very fragile f***ed up ego), then he “curtain calls”…and you are re-hooked, so to speak, IF you allow it…because the “bad drug” is soooo potent…you want that original “high” again that you had with him (but you never will)…because it was all an illusion, a story he made up just so he could have a captive audience and feel powerful….yes, he is THAT SICK. The only way to free yourself of such ill people is NC…it’s the only way….listen to what Natalie has to say…she is right on…
Even men that do not have such ,mental health issues do the things that you stated at a little lower level. The ego stroking is the biggest issue I think. They always need to know that you still care! NC is the only way for sure!
Andi,
If I may ask I would like to know exactly where you get your info on sociopaths/narcissists and the pathologicals? I believe I am involved with a very dangerous one. Your help would be greatly appreciated.
Here is a description of my recent A/C:
He was a passive aggressive self-absorbed insecure narcissist.
Ok, insecure narcissist is, itself, an oxy-moron, but it fits.
I am caught up in what you describe above. My head knows it, but my heart/genitals are still totally addicted. I’ve tried to go NC but I weaken to have “just one more” (sex) time with him, which has now been 4 (“just one last”). I wish someone could help me.
anybody ever listen to John Mayer? Although I think he’s talented, I do believe, from what I’ve read, he is a narcissist…his music clearly reflects that of an individual who is intimacy-avoidant (with assclown potential)…ever hear Heartbreak Warfare or Half of My Heart? Ever listen to Bad Pill by Pink? Bad Romance by Lady GaGa? All these songs reflect the damage an Assclown (i.e. Narcissist) can do, if you don’t protect yourself from such emotional vampires…
Hi – Also, virtually anything by Steve Page and the Barenaked Ladies. He is the king of assclowns but at least is honest about it:
“I didn’t have the heart to say goodbye,
so I continued on my charlatan ways,
did I say heart?,
I meant to say guts”
and Rehab by Rihanna:)
another great song depicting assclowns: Patty Griffin, Change
“Dog comes howling up behind you, sinks his teeth in your leg
Tells you how now things are going to be a little different
And he takes you down a peg
You make him ashamed for you, he buys you a new dress
Because you make him ashamed for you, he’d like you to took your best
So you change, and the dog bites down a little harder.”
I think John Mayer is a complete joke! I run a mile if he tried to talk to me.
He did a number on Jessica Simpson, it took her a long time to finally stay away from him, I guess meeting Tony Romo back then made her stop chasing him – I am going by what I have read about it and my own experience, no, not with John Mayer 🙂
I don’t buy his music because I think he is an a**clown.
He played Jennifer Aniston as well, I can’t remember but I think she was on and off with him for a while.
It can happen to any woman – as long as the woman learns from that experience.
Also, every time you go back you will be discarded faster.
This is BRILLIANT! I’ve been waiting for this follow up. Currently unhooking my self from the potential of a 3 week internet/ text go nowhere (canceled but not rescheduled date) but on the ego stroke string thing. I laughed out loud several times at this .. My 2 faves .. Crackers that look like. 5 star mirages and Bullshit Diet.. ROFLMAO!!
Also wanted to share something I read today ” if it is consistent, it is courtship.. If not, seduction..
Cheers and Thanks for what u do as always!
My thoughts are: damn. Your posts are always so timely for me as well as others. Moving on from my exEUM is harder than I thought. After many failed tries of no contact, I decided maybe it’s best to work on my perception of things first before a (hopefully) final attempt and in the meantime try to stay as real as possible about what is going on.
Struggling with the loss of illusion has been the hardest. I seemed to have overvalued things but am finding that there is still some value there. I don’t know if this person is still worth having in my life. But I’ve been trying to focus more and more on myself instead of them.
I wish it was like a switch and I could just turn off emotions, illusions, hooks, struggles and just move on instead of the process taking months and months.
I definitely feel better, stronger, happier, more grounded than a couple of months ago and this site helps a lot.
Cindy, I feel your pain. It’s what I’m dealing with. I’m in my 50’s and you would think men in their 60’s are over this A/C stuff and are ready to be serious.
Yes, yes, and yes. Turns out this happened with a particular guy somewhat recently and then I hear these “Oh he’s so nice” statements from people who “know” him and am taken aback of their ignorance. Nice? So he was nice enough to act all gentlemanly towards me and then start to flake out near the end of his sudden disappearance (for the second time, mind you). I thought he wanted a relationship (that presumption based on a source) thus I kept on giving him the benefit of the doubt thinking “He won’t disappear on me a second time. Surely not” or “He’s interested in me and things come up”. I realized he used the “My car isn’t working” excuse a second time to get out of something at the last minute. Or the “Sorry I haven’t been in touch in a little while. My phone hasn’t been working because of [insert catastrophe here]”. I can’t believe I put up with his crap (we weren’t official or anything but still) but I basically told him after he disappeared that he had done that before (but didn’t say anything then) and now having done it again, I don’t deserve the behavior.
I had the same experiences. These guys are NOT NICE they are just people pleasures with low self esteem that use women and then often can play victim? Seriously! So pathetic~
Goodness Lisa! So simple and so well put. Exactly!
Ellie, I too hear from people, “He’s such a nice guy.” This bothers me to no end. It is almost like he wins again. This guy was absolutely HORRIBLE to me and people still think he is such a great guy. On the few occasions I let out what was going on, people basically didn’t believe me. I stopped telling people and basically withdrew from everyone. After being treated like dirt, it knocked the wind out of me to have people not believe me or say he’s not that bad. Since going NC, I have changed everything. I don’t really talk to mutual friends now. I have discovered that many of them are as shallow as him. He is the master of the game, without a doubt. I have struggled with this. It is so unfair. I am armed with the truth of who he is, but it is still a slap in the face every time I hear how wonderful he is.
I know exactly what you mean, my x plays the “im just a nice, sweet but confused guy and i didnt mean to” to a T. I just say to people who actually fall for it, you only no him as a friend or associate you dont know him on an intimate level.
Also as time went on more and more people saw what a tool he was 🙂 He really did play the victim well. I was shocked, hang on you dumped me out of the blue for nothing and acted like a tool but your hard done by????
Go figure!!!
To me this only proves that they know they are morons and really they are just starting the 2nd part of their act. 1st act: im a great guy and ill give you what you want. 2nd act even though i did wrong by you i will accept NO responsability, be hard done by, play the victim and try to keep you roped into my life so you dont move on.
Its like the worst movie ever which no doubt has been played to death and will be re-run over and over !!!
Take care
Ellie:
I had the same experience too. My ex-AC disappeared on me twice. The first time he did his vanishing act, I confronted him about it months later and he had the audacity to deny it by turning the spotlight on me- “you could have called” and then, I started to think.. perhaps he didn’t disappear, why didn’t I call. ACs seem to be talented when it comes to brainwashing/superimposing their revisionist narratives onto you.
Now he’s done it again. But sometimes, I feel I don’t even trust my own instincts enough (as I am still trying to entangle myself from the hook, he’d succeeded in creating his image of himself as being misunderstood, victimized by women, that he is really mr Nice guy) and I need verification that he is incapable of behaving like a decent human being.
These posts really hit the nail on the head and at the same time, it’s almost tragic or comically grotesque to have to confront the fact that I was responsible for generating all this pain and misery, I was the author of my own confusion, the scriptwriter of all the drama. If I had a firmer foot planted in reality, if I had not lived in the realm of romantic delusions, all this would not have happened.
Wow. There it is, in black and white. What happened with the AC. Probably one of the most helpful things about all of this is the fact that its the mixture of truth and fiction that makes it all so hard to comprehend, and all so hard to let go of. Yes, I absolutely pictured the relationship. Probably 50% of what I thought was going on existed no where but my head. But,and its an important but, there was something going on. I wasn’t completely crazy, I didn’t imagine all of it and I am not solely to blame. The problem I have been having is separating the fact from the fiction (and maybe that helps explain why, every time I think I have made peace with it as only a mirage or picture, some nostalgic flash reminds me of a “good time” or a serious crumb). One of the hardest things I have been trying to reconcil is that I want so badly to learn to trust myself again, and I was so sure, so positive he really liked and cared for me and now I am faced with the truth that he really doesn’t. Was it because he stopped or was it because he never did (and I pictured it?). If he stopped, it literally happened overnight.
One of the clearest examples I have that we were speaking different languages and having two entirely different experiences at the end of the relationship was when I sent an email saying I was going no contact and he wrote back that he thought I had sent the email to him in error – that it must have been meant for someone else. He couldn’t understand what I was so upset about – in his mind we had only kinda, sorta started seeing each other (for 5 months) while in my mind we were already together. I used his ambiguity, his flip flapping BS to help nourish my fantasies about what was going on. I read all kinds of meaning into things that were meaningless. I took every crumb and turned it into a feast. I can see now why he had such a hard time understanding where my pain was coming from. It was coming from the pseudo relationship in my head.
So what to do about it all now? I have to work with my AC and he has, at least in a half hearted, AC kind of way, tried to reconnect and make things better between us and I have held on to the grudge and the pain. I am trying hard to let it go, move on and forgive and forget. Hopefully all this knowledge will allow me to do that. Keep my boundaries strong, realize that he is still a dangerous assclown and try and stay in reality. Wow.
“One of the clearest examples I have that we were speaking different languages and having two entirely different experiences at the end of the relationship was when I sent an email saying I was going no contact and he wrote back that he thought I had sent the email to him in error – that it must have been meant for someone else. He couldn’t understand what I was so upset about”
Sorry, I couldn’t help but roll on the floor laughing! No, I’m not laughing at you.
I tried four times to walk out on my A/C before I actually did walk out the fifth attempt. Even on the fifth attempt when I actually did leave, the A/C was such a narcissist, he was actually “surprised” that I would walk out because he thought things were “turning around” and would be “better for me” (though not from any of HIS actions…). He actually thought I was unhappy in the town he lived in. It’s like the four previous times I tried to walk out just didn’t even register and he didn’t even think my walking out was about him……
another great post:))))))
I guess my mail hook is that I know, how attentive my ex-EUM can be to other girls. We have the same group of friends, so we still see each other from time to time… and there he is, charming his new victim… and i start picturing how great their whole relationship is… and how he has never been like that to me…blah blah blah… and that’s my hook, wondering why he hasn’t been the same to me
any thoughts???
xoxo
ana
My EUM treated me really great until I let him know I liked him. It is all a game and bullshit. Don’t worry his victim will end up used and abused sooner or later. Not that we want anyone to get hurt but just know that he is just an weak man that needs to use women in order to feel good about himself. It has nothing to do with us. We do need to just let them go and work on ourselves. The worst thing we can do is feel like he is choosing another girl over us. He is not… he is just so f- up that he needs to keep getting the next high and the next and the next. he does not know how to love! He is sick!
Ya know, with all these “review” websites (Angies list, etc…..), I’m surprised someone hasn’t started a “rate your ex boyfriend” web site. I’d LOVE one of those right now. But then someone else might start a “rate your ex-girlfriend” web site. Um…… that might not be such a good idea….. On the other hand, I think Facebook takes care of that already……. in a covert way….
“My” AC appears to seek out women who have been previously abused. He has openly told me how his ex AND the woman he currently has his eye on have been abused by men in the past. It’s like he thinks they will accept any shite he throws at them. Maybe he is right, because his ex did AND I have, and I still do! I feel I must be a masochist to put up with the way he hurts me time and time again and I just keep coming back for more… I need some serious help.
@Wastedlove
If you think you need help, perhaps you should listen to yourself and get the help. NML’s blogs are great for keeping you h ead straight but you need to be serious about acting- and being proactive – in your own best long term interests.
You are ‘aiming but you are failing to fire’… if you want to end the thing you have with this guy you need to get serious about doing it; you need to be both ready and willing (read Nat’s current blog) and that means getting uncomfortable about it. You need to keep your head in reality – at all times – even when your are getting your next final “sex fix”, you will then find it is not so palatable!
I think you are maybe giving in to the temptations of the short term too easily? (This is my own guilty pleasure!) You do not need to act out your every ‘desire’. Think big picture – think long-term – think of your self-respect and what the trade off actually is here for you – you are putting an awful lot of yourself on the table for this guy to pick up – for free? Is it really worth it? Perhaps think about this: What are you actually getting back in return for trading in your self-respect? (this has helped me in my situation).
Good luck
ps A decent, worthwhile relationship does not require either party to hand over their self-respect just to get some “attention” from the other person.
Nat’s blog ‘Hold on Tight to your Self-Respect…’ (through thick and thin) is now my mantra! NO TRADE OFF!
Natalie,
Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and insight into messed up relationships. I know he isn’t an AC, and I’m not sure if he is an EU, but you still have a wealth of information that applies to my situation.
I had a 7 month long distance relationship with an ex flame from high school. To make matters worse, I was the OW, his excuse for staying married was that he has a child who has emotional issues that he feared a divorce would exacerbate, as well as the divorce might mean having to sell his business, thus leaving him financially unable to provide the financial support she needed to keep stable. He convinced me that if I could just wait 4 years until she went in college, he would feel he had met his obligations as a parent. Then he would divorce and marry me, he loved me more than he had ever loved anybody, etc.
In addition to our both being emotionally starved, we both spent a lot of time picturing our future together. For six months we sent long letters and 3 hour phone calls a few times each week. At 4 months we even took a week vacation together, and he gave me his mother’s engagement ring so I would know the ‘truth’ of how much he loved me and planned to be with me. He encouraged me to move out to his area so we could be closer and see each other more often. Then in the last month he started managing down my expectations for the quantity of our contact, with various excuses. I should have seen the writing on the wall, but my rose colored glasses led me to want to be “supportive of what he was going through.”
Three weeks ago he dumped me out of the blue, claiming the wife had “somehow” found some of our e-mail that talked about our vacation and my plans to move out there, he had to cut all ties to do what was best for his family, but he would always love me, etc. When I asked about getting together in 4 years, he stated that he had told his wife he would “make an effort” on their relationship, so he could no longer promise me anything.
I’ve been a basket case. Reading your site I knew what to do, but was unable to stick with NC myself, because I didn’t want to accept the relationship was truly over. We do share values, so in my mind I couldn’t “see” anybody who would be more perfect for me. Your recent posts let me see I had so many hooks (security, plans, interest, connection, fantasy) that allowed me to make excuses for him. Still, I couldn’t get myself to give up hoping for a reconciliation.
This latest post “the picture of your relationship” allowed me to see that I while I was partly grieving the loss of the relationship itself, the biggest grief was being unable to let go of the picturing I had done with him over our supposed future together. I was grieving something that haven’t even happened yet!
Your posts are brilliant and filled with insight. Thanks for all the help you provide.
These ‘hook’ articles have helped me enormously. I too was having a hard time moving on, kept slipping back down the slope, now i know it was because i was still hooked on the illusion i had and kept hoping he would contact me, like he had in the past, now i’ve been forced to aknowledge that he won’t, that his caring for me was ll in my head. Now there are no illusions, only sadness. I am happy about that because i am no longer thinking, analyzing etc. I’ve got all the evidence, it has led me to this: i thought he cared for me deeply, that i wasn’t as invested as i actually was, that i could skip away from him without a care when our time was done (pfft!), now i know he was just passing time with me, that he liked me as a person, but not in the way i liked him – and that’s it. Done. Nothing more to analyze or talk about. It is what it is. I feel like crap, but i’m alllowing myself to feel like crap and i know that i will eventually be ok, as i have been when previous relationships have ended. (sigh).
This is so me! Having not been with anyone for years and I allowed myself to fall for someone that knew all the romantic tricks. Since we had been friends for years I fell for it and himl. Now I see the truth and know he is a user, and he rationalizes his bad behavior. For the last few months I really lied to myself about this whole situation. I kept thinking he was this great guy when in reality he is just a weak man that people pleases. What a jerk, he even admits that he has been doing this for years, but does nothing to change his horrible behavior. I wanted him to love me so badly that I imagined a relationship with him and took his words of sex as words of a relationship. For example when I first aked him if he ever thought about “us” he said “all the time” I took that as us being in a relationship, but I now know he took it as us fu—-g and when I tried to stop seeing him and he gropped me or embrassed me I would say “when you do that it get the ball rolling for me and I can’t stop thinking about it” he took it as sex… I took it as I can’t stop thinking about the relationship or him? I was addicted to him he was addicted to sex. It is as simple as that. The one thing I have to admit is that as soon as I felt him pull away… I would try to use sex to keep him. That is my fault… I would go deeper and deeper into erotica to keep him interested. That is something that I learned from this experience and will never ever do again. As far as he is concnerned though! I am def going to use NC with him because at this point…. yeah I hate him!
Dear Meli,
I have been there (a long time ago) and heard it. Same story. Same outcome.They are one big walking excuse (I care so much for my children or I would be with you properly, so you see the reason I can’t is because I am such a nice guy(?) So, what’s the reason for having the affair, then?).
He has not suddenly found his conscience, he has been caught cheating on his wife – trying to have his cake and eat it – and has had his wings clipped.
One of NML’s quotations that really helps me to get ‘unhooked’ is this one: “the man who can’t resist you won’t resist you.”
The other one I hang on to – for unhooking my head – is this; if he was really that bothered he would do what it takes to get himself into a position to be with me properly.
This is a v helpful blog. I fear though that we are all somehow hoping there is a quick fix, a painless way out, some key thing, some message, that will cure us, instantly (I know I am looking for it) – and we all know there isn’t one, and that is what is also painful; that we know we have to go through the hurt to get out the other end. A wise friend once said to me about an old romance that I miseried over for months: you’ll get over it when you want to get over it and not moment sooner. He was right.
I would think about this, Meli : “We do share values,” Are you sure? His values don’t look all that admirable from here.
I know he has the values I have, but as NML says: Is he applying those values to YOU? And for the most part, no, he is applying them to his family. I just assumed that when he was finally mine, I would reap the benefit. The most ironic part is how he assured me he wasn’t the typical married man … and I fell for it.
NML thanks to you and your post I have been un hooked for quite a while now and I am currently in a relationship where there is zero drama, misundestandings, disrespect, games etc.
I can communicate very well with him, we get along in the real life, this relationship is not imaginary, he is a complete sweetheart, I never had such a relationship before, how sad.
However, I have found myself recently acting like an EUW. I have caught myself going cold on him for NO REASON at all.
I guess I just cant believe that I am finally in a great relationship and my acting up is trying to sabotage it!!
Please post tips on how to prevent this from happening!! I have had a whole year of deep healing and reading your post etc and as soon as I was ready I found this amazing guy. Now it feels my own behaviour lets me down at times when I am trying to sabotage it with my temporary periods of coldness. I wish I could understand or explain why I do it, I just do it.
NML I remmeber you mentioned once you also tried to sabotage your now wonderful relationship, how did you come back to your sane self? It will helps tons to hear this. Thank you!!
@ME. I’m doing this too. This guy who I have been on three dates with has already picked up that I am being a bit hot and cold and intellectualizing feelings.
Depending on how deep you want to go with it – going cold is a way of retreating to your own world as if there is some outside threat. It’s a classic EU/narc trait, developed from childhood in order to cope with erratic, extra shaming/super doting parenting. It’s both a means and by-product of being able to swing between outside performance and inner ‘dream’ state. I am, I should add, giving really cheap analysis from what I have read, so take it lightly. ; )
My ex-AC used to become very cold, triggered by something innocuous, but it would last for hours or even days and he certainly would never take responsibility for it. Whereas, it’s quite normal to have short moments of it, especially when you’re only just getting into a relationship, when, after an EU/AC relationship, you, quite reasonably, still think a threat is imminent. Be careful though! Don’t write the self-rejection script! Don’t entertain the idea that you’re separate and not able to be understood/too special for a relationship, and that you need a little place to hide away. Share your feelings (in proportion, so that you don’t create this script for your relationship that you’re a ruined EUW). Like yourself. Be authentic. Don’t worry about perfectionism.
I say this bit about not thinking yourself ‘too special’ because I am fairly certain this is part of the mindset that gets ACs into AC behaviour (plus a bit of casual rage and social/familial unaccountability!).
All the best. Sounds like a lovely, new relationship!
@ Elle, I found what you wrote quite interesting, where did you find that information?
It kinda explained my X pretty well, especially the ” EU/narc trait, developed from childhood in order to cope with erratic, extra shaming/super doting parenting”.
You also mentioned the being perfect thing. Interesting because he basically thought unless things were perfect then something was majorly wrong! So one small hiccup that would take a 30 mins to chat about would turn into, going cold, withdrawing and its over. It was exhausting and so dramatic and terribly inconsistent in every way. Even if things were fine, he would project into the future of say 5 years down the track and worry about that !!!!! so i just could not win! He would decide on what the answr or my responce would be all by himself then go cold, meanwhile id have no clue of what was going on. I didn’t know if I was coming or going in the end and truthfully its taken a year for me to repair the damage to my health, emotional stability, self esteem and self belief, But the good news is ive come out even stronger then I was before I met him and with a even more deeper and defined understanding of who I am, what makes me tick and he hasnt scared me off love.
P.s what do u mean by this? EU/narc trait…… is that a narcissist?
Take care 🙂
@Trinity: That was my AC too! Completely panicked about anything that I did that was different or possibly too scarily (and off-puttingly) the same as what he did. The rules always changed. I said to him a couple of times – something he admitted was true – which was that by having invisible trip wires he made things impossible, that he did not want to be accountable, that he wanted to keep things always a little bit off and chaotic. And, of course, this was all communicated by the ice-cold, bottled anger treatment. His face would literally flush with seething resentment toward me, usually triggered from me saying something happily flippant or being kind or grateful towards him or about my friends and family, but could equally be triggered if I expressed vulnerability about my work or future. Geez! I am only four months out, and still have some after effects going on. Because you’re frozen in reaction mode – to their crazy behaviour, holding your breath and hoping it will go away – it actually takes a long time, far longer than I had anticipated – to shake off this sort of relationship, and build yourself back up again, especially since he said all sorts of screwy things like, ‘You are the only one who brings out my anger’, ‘Everyone likes you, but I am sorry, I don’t.’ Makes me laugh now, as I know it’s just not the sort of thing a sensible person says, but it’s been like crawling out of a trench.
As for my pop psych, it’s come from an assortment of things I’ve read and my own interpretations of my experiences. But here’s an excellent source of information:
(If the link is dodgy, search for Mental Health Matters, Do Narcissists Have Emotions?)
My current view is that EUs (myself, to some degree, included), while far less destructive than narcissists – for starters, they have self-awareness, empathy and a will to change – have a tad of the narc about them – ie some weird sense that they’re special and couldn’t possibly be understood. This sense of being special can, of course, come from serious trauma so I don’t mean it in a cavalier way. But there’s something about being emotionally unavailable that is connected, I think, to seeing yourself (unconsciously) as threatened in a relationship, of losing an identity that is sacred. For reasons that the article goes into, positive and negative emotions are tightly bound up, which is why coldness can follow happiness so quickly.
True (narcissist) AC’s think that there will be this perfect set of conditions for their ‘true’ identity to be realized and adored. No audience is good enough!
Anyway, I miss my bloody AC today – for all his attractive, witty and intelligent/insightful qualities, so I am going to have to re-read the above post and map out things in a more proportional way. I am sure my perception of him is like one of those distorted maps of the world in which countries are given sizes to match population size or other variables. I have his good qualities overblown.
Elle – I read the post on narcassist you cite – OMG. There is was, explained. One of the most interesting things was this:
“The narcissist finds it hard to remember what he felt (even a short while ago) towards a Narcissistic Supply Source once it has ceased to be one.”
I couldn’t figure out how he had gone so cold, so fast. There it is. I had resisted the idea that my AC was in fact a full blown narc but there is just no question about it any more. The discussion about the void of emotion, his contempt and feelings of inadequacy in the face of genuine emotions, his need to protect his image at all costs. His complete and utter lack of feeling. He was fine as long as I was stroking him constantly. The second I stopped – look out!
Fascinating, and a bit scary. He and I work together and there is no avoiding him. He has been not only cold and indifferent but openly hostile and trying to turn others at work against me. Having read this, I wonder if there is anything I can do to try and fix things. It sounds like there isn’t (short of just blindly adoring him again). Ugh.
With you completely on that one. I have a tendancy to go cold for no good reason. All the pieces fit – I have a great life and a great love – there is no real reason to fear. There is no reason to hold back. The only thing that comes to mind for me anyway is stinkin thinkin. Occassionaly I slip back into I don’t deserve this, this can’t be true and waiting for the other shoe to drop. When is he going to turn into a cockroach. I have to stop myself and remember – I do deserve to be treated with love care and respect and if it all ended tomorrow – I would cry I would grieve and I would move on. There is nothing to fear – so love – love all you can – open your heart and take that chance on yourself. Of course first make sure all is in alignment – then go for it. Love like your heart has never been broken. I deserve him and he deserves me. All of him and all of me!
@Nat – love the desert analogy – that’s where I was – starved and accepting crackers as a five star mean – it was all a mirage.
This is what my x did to me and was the main source of our problems, he would go cold for no good reason and withdraw for days to weeks. My X would also say things like “is this real?, Im such a loser, I dont deserve this, This cant be true, why do u love me” He never took responsability for the going hot and cold thing. He to also had a parent that did the”erratic, extra shaming/super doting parenting” His primary care giver has Bipolar. I created a very open forum for any discussion and never raised my voice, always listen but it just was not enough. I know i could never win with this realtionship because no matter which way i played it i was ultimately wrong some how.
I was either perfect and everything was wonderful or everything was bad and i was either frozen out or rejected.
Then when he left the whole thing was lumped onto me with out him taking ANY responsability.
@ ME ::::Hey, dont let the past destroy your future. You are lovable and you are worth a great relationship. Let go and have fun. Enjoy it 🙂 Just let go…………
I use to think that the opposite of love is hate. Not true, Lisa. The opposite of love is indifference. While you are hating, you still have feelings/emotions for that person. It’s when you are indifferent/have no feelings/just don’t care anymore…. that is the opposite of love. That is what I am striving for.
@PAB, I know what you mean. Me too. I know from past relationships that even though I thought at the time I was going to die if I had to live without this person, indifference does come, eventually, with time and distance.
Indifference comes eventually to any relationship if you stay away from them for long enough and both get on with your own very separate lives. Eventually the connection is lost and they disappear into the past; and they become just another guy you used to go out with. They all do, eventually. I am old enough to know this.
It’s no consolation at the point when you are trying to let it go because moving on is very painful. This is why NC is such a good move… the sooner you start the process, the sooner he will be of the past and not of the present.
I have been swithering with NC – making half hearted attempts at not ‘stoking the fire’) – I know I need to be NC as I have too many hooks to deal with – not least the sheer length of time I have invested in this ‘relationship’.
So, I have for the first time, taken ten minutes today to write down what are now my non-negotiables, and what should always have been or I wouldn’t be in this position! (and have also written out some of what are now my boundaries. I am not the gift that keeps on giving!!).
Here’s the laugh: If I stick to my non-negotiable boundary number one, that will be enough to rid myself of this particular EUM! I wouldn’t even need to go down the rest of the list! If I stick to number one, which is this:
“I do not go out with or seek relationships with men who are attached in any way to another woman (i.e. married/living with someone/living with ex/recently separated)”
Then I have nothing else to do, except to stick to that new boundary. And it makes complete sense to even a moron, so I can’t argue with it or argue around it! Eureka!
Sounds simple, doesn’t it. And it is. Until you put me into the equation! It’s the enemy within, not the enemy without, that scuppers me!
But I am going to try it and see. If I have non-negotiables – then that is what they are. I cannot see him, I cannot pursue the relationship because he breaks one of my non-negotiable ‘deal-breakers’. Full stop….and they all lived happily ever after.. the end.
These thoughts today (as per NML’s good advice on other blogs) for unhooking and getting to indifference may also help others?
Act always in your own best interests. Know what your non-negotiables are. Just cos you didn’t apply them early enough to avoid your current situation doesn’t mean you can’t apply them right now to the man you are struggling with or are trying to dump.
What are our non-negotiables? Why are we trying to negotiate with them. You can’t; they are non-negotiables. You are unhooked! Now you just need to sit back and let time and distance do its work! (sounds easy, doesn’t it? Maybe because it actually is? If we would just let it be)
Here is that wee prayer again, which may be good for some, for unhooking; for letting go:
God grant me the grace to accept the things I cannot change
The courage to change the things I can change
And the wisdom to know the difference
F
@ Fearless
I read your 1st non-negoitiable and thought “that was me!” I had the same plan until the return of the childhood sweatheart – there is no getting around some one lying to you – I found out too late that he was still married, and of course that ended it for me. I am still trying to get over it now but these rules don’t work when the AC/EUM sets out to mislead you. I am now working to clean up the mess he left me in and get myself straightened out. There is no preparation (sometimes) to deal with the level that some AC’s will stoop to- to get what they want, when they want it.
I am working to unhook myself and it “should” be easy for me, since he lied to me about almost everything. What’s there to miss? more lying?
There is nothing i can look back on and say for sure I know because he intended to keep me in the dark about so much…It’s hard to really understand it even from a distance now. I may have to tell myself there will no be answers as to how and why this happened to me, and I won’t be able to look back and see the signs of his lies, but I didn’t until the very end.
I look forward to the day when I reach indifference, I still want some kind of vengence….but I will remain NC.
@left wondering
I know. You feel you’ve landed on planet Zorg and you want someone to explain to you where you are and how you got here; it’s like you have no frame of reference and the world doesn’t make any sense anymore.
The terrible need for answers, for the truth, dissipates over time as you begin to realise that even “he” didn’t know what the truth was half the time.
If it’s any comfort, you can know that he lied to you becasue he didn’t think you’d give him the time of day otherwise, and continued to lie so that you would not leave him… and it just snowballs (that tangled web we weave.. and all that) until there is no way they can possibly back track.. they have to keep lying and every lie needs another to back up the first, and the second needs a third.. and on and on it goes…until they don’t know whether it’s New Year or New York.
You are probably experiencing now the same kind of mental fuddle he was in when the affair was going on. They become more and more anxious, the pressure of all these lies and deceptions becomes impossible for them to manage any more. (unfortunately you are oblivious to all of this at the time). But they continue to lie because they do not want to lose what they have. You. (and her as well).
One way to unhook from that kind of deception is to understand that it was all just a mess that can never be unravelled and one question, even if it could be answered, only troubles another. He was juggling too many balls in the air; was spineless and a coward… and knowing the truth of the details, the whats and wheres and whens, i.e was he where he said he was that night when…? (probably not, is the answer)….did he mean it when he said he wanted us to be together?…(yes, probably, when he said it he meant it), but they get themselves into so much of a fankle, that, frankly, I don’t think even they know what they are saying anymore; it gets to the point that it is just damage limitation with them and they say anything so as not to land themselves in it. And when all the balls are too much to juggle and it all comes tumbling down… they cry like babies and run away (all tears and snotters, grappling their way back to the wife, if she’ll still have him), all the while hoping that the OW he knows he has treated like crap will not send in a couple of heavy male relatives to give him the thrashing he deserves.
If it’s any consolation he already knows all of this. He knows he’s a f**k up, knows he’s a lying, manipulating wee git who treated you, who didn’t deserve any of it, it like crap.. .he knows all of this and he has to live with himself (and so does his wife – (and it’ll be an open sore for her for the rest of their married life).
They really are, or do become, that pathetic; they reap what they sow. Be glad you are not part of it any more. You can have peace and reality back and a clear conscience. He can’t. And all people (unless you’re a psychopathic nutter) eventually recognise, if even only on their death beds, that a clear conscience is worth its weight in gold.
That’s my rant for the evening, (I think I’m wandering off topic – please forgive – I’m now wandering off to bed)
Fearless:
I think writing down the non-negotiable list is very powerful and visualization actually helps, so much so that one can internalize the non-negotiable.
Regarding indifference, I think that is a true marker of someone having absolutely no more control/power over your thoughts. It does make perfect sense to match the other person’s indifference, if he doesn’t give a hoot, if he is callous, cold and unfeeling, why should we continue to stay invested?
I’ve thought often about whether feelings can develop and whether love can exist autonomously, in spite of, and apart from the mistreatment. How does one reconcile the indignation and anger arising from the mistreatment, embrace acceptance, forgiveness, move on in a healthy and detached way while integrating the past experience, perceive the AC with the newfound reality-grounded perspective?
I wish I could magically arrive at the state of indifference where he has absolutely zero effect on me, but it is hard to do so after all that emotional investment. I’m struggling too, between abiding by NCR, wanting to achieve indifference, unhooking myself and with all the pent-up frustration that I’d suppressed and fantasizing about that angry confrontation (while realizing that this will have no effect on shaping his behavior towards a more positive direction, but perhaps gratify his ego because to display anger is still a sign of my emotional investment/a form of attention)
@Jade Sesame
I am totally in your place. I am trying to stay away from him. I see it all, clearly, I think. I see my hooks and my picturing and am trying to break all of this down into manageable bite-size chunks. Writing things down does help, if even to give your head somewhere else to go! My non-negotiable – in balck and white – is helping me.
I agree – I don’t know what to do with the anger and frustration I feel. I feel the need to express it to him -it’s v hard right now not to text or email him some little pearl of my wisdom!, but I know it will make no impression – at least none that I will see or know about, cos I would get zero response and his ‘indifference’ would only feed the frustration.
Knowing that is the one thing that has often helped me to avoid making that contact: it might make me feel better when I click “send”, but an hour later when I realise I am getting nada back from him – not even an acknowledgement that I have spoken – I can then be overtaken with a fury that can leave me unable to function normally, sometimes for days. Sometimes what I do is text him again – to get nada – then again – to get nada – until he texts me something like “stop it” and I feel like a nutcase who now has to apologise (which I would tend then to do, because I realise that I have turned into a nutter!).
He always seems to remain aloof and distant, and unless I am willing to invite him in on his own terms, then I simply don’t see or hear from him.
So, I know the script. I know if I messaged him I’d get nothing back and I’d just feel like I was pouring my feelings into a black hole.
When I try to focus on that, it stops me from doing anything. But I would like him to feel the pain of indifference; I think that’s what is now one of the ‘hooks’. And I know the only way to make my point is to treat him the same as he treats me (I do know it’s not about making points to him; that it’s about my own recovery and well-being, but I also know that my own recovery will really annoy him because with it will come indifference, and he deserves to be very very annoyed for once!!)
What to do with all that anger and pent up emotion and get to indifference? I wish I knew.
Yesterday I went for a long walk. I will do the same today.
Fearless – I like the idea of the non negotiables (why did we not have them in the relationship?) but I don’t know if any one thing is going to be the answer. You kind of hit the nail on the head with distance, time and no contact. As hard as it might be to beleve now, there will be a time in the future (hopefully soon) when the ACs that are causing us such grief now will be but an unpleasant memory. I remember the worst break up I had ever had before – months of tears, endless attempts to reconcil, more pain than I thought imaginable. Its all just a memory now. Months, even years have gone by that I haven’t thought of that guy and hopefully the current AC will join him (although I work with my AC, so seeing him everyday is just one of the lasting side effects). It is certainly so much better than it was already, thanks to NC.
I had heard that “the opposite of love wasn’t hate, its indifference” before and absolutely believe that to be true. I think indifference is much worse, much more painful. If my AC hated me, at least that would be strong emotion (albiet in the wrong direction). Indifference is cold, meaningless, infuriating. Accepting and witnessing his indifference every day has been brutal. The most I can hope for in the short term is that I begin to actually feel the indifference I have been pretending, to match the indifference to me he already has. All this is so sad, so counter to the joyous hope of the beginning of these ridiculous relationships. There are days when I shake my head and think how did it get this bad?
OMG! This is exactly what I am dealing with right now. I have made it through one month of NC…and was starting to waiver. I have to keep reminding myself that if I did contact him, that the person on the other end of the phone/text/im is not the man I was calling/the one I want to talk to because that man DOES NOT EXIST! I wouldn’t be talking to a kind, giving man who respects and cherishes me–I would be talking to an AC who was just trying to have his ego puffed up with no regard to me. Remembering that has stopped me several times. Now I sit here and cry over my folly-that I filled in all the blanks with my best wishes, that I overlooked every signal that told me to run. This coupled with the fact that after a horrible marriage, his crumbs were indeed a feast in my eyes, kept me with him. So, now I am trying to see things clearly, to forgive myself, and to try to keep moving forward. Again thanks Natalie and everyone here-I really don’t know what I would do without you!
hooks for me have always been comments my ex-AC stated regarding how “special” I am to him…he is/was a master manipulator and knew just what to say to me at a time when I was very vulnerable The sick thing is that he claims to be a “life coach”–yeah, very sick. Like a homing pigeon, bingo…I was a perfect target, coming off a depression and a relationship-break-up. This guy is a sociopath (or at minimum a malignant narcissist). Some of these toxic men will use mind control techniques, NLP (neurolinguistic programming, etc) to get their sense of “power” over their targets, which then fuels their very fragile ego. Very dangerous men.
It would be so great if we had a database that listed all the names and/or locations of all these AC’s and EUM”s. I swear when I read these comments I feel like we are all dating the same guy.
Thanks for another great post Natalie, you are wise beyond your years.
LOL!!! I love it!
Suziq,
Well, it’s a scary thought, and I know we are all over the world, but if you think about it, the odds are that a few of us are talking about the same guy. I mean, really the exact same guy.
Can you imagine? What if all of us are all talking about the same 3 guys! We could all just get together and kick their as**s. LOL!
Over It
This is so true. I have a great imagination and made him out to be more than he was. I felt so in love with him when he was not around, because I was free to turn him into who I wanted him to be. I proved this point to myself by finding a random guy on an internet site. I printed his picture because he was attractive to me. Then I spent a weekend fantacizing about him. I envisioned going on dates and how he would treat me. My attraction was very strong to this imaginary friend. Then I realized it is what lonely children do to keep themselves from feeling the pain.
Now do that with a real person, and you have one bad relationship. The story of my life.
A database of assclown’s names!! Yes !! That thought has crossed my mind:) There is a website called “Great Boyfriends.com” why not Assclowns .org?lol..
Sorta struggling to not contact the once daily emailer texter for three weeks now.. He postponed our first date twice without rescheduling officially so I said if we didn’t end up meeting up in the next week then I would probably think he was more interested in fantasy than reality, and I am much better suited to reality. No surprise no contact. No worries though .. Setting boundaries and following thru feels great!! I was sweetly accommodating to the 1st cancellations cuz they sounded legit, but enough is enough, the picturing has got me hooked, ( hooks were looks, creativity, aloofness, confidence, responsiveness(,up till now)intelligence,also , I love me a challenge.. Bah! It took me this whole time to figure it out, but at least I did and feel he’s lost his chance at this point and am proud to be aborting mission/opting out with little more than a sideways glance .. THANK YOU NML!!
Hello Natalie,
Oh my, you are so right about what your topic covers both on “hooks” and “reset button” . I felt tears well up in my eyes as I read your latest 2 emails. I’m so that person you are describing,and he fits so many of your examples too…. no wonder I haven’t been able to successfully disintangle my self with my EUM/AC for so many years of its on, its off, and why I keep letting him back into my life and heart and sending the wrong reasons and messages to my head and my heart about him and myself and all the B.sh…t!!!.
I’ve started my quest for NCR and to really break free from him, I dont even have a decent relationship as it is, its a mirage in my head. I have a thousand good reasons to move on. I am praying for courage and guidance to dig deep and get it done!.
Your emails etc will help me stay focused. Thanks Nat
Shez
You’re right sometimes we only have an impression of being in a relationship and that satisfies us even if the relationship with the partner is not good or healthy . You’ve given such a wonderful example of being in a dessert and having cracker which seems like a five star meal ! Sometimes people are so eager to be in a relationship that they accept whoever comes in their way and when the relationship with the partner takes a back seat it still doesnot bother them because they are content they they are ‘in a relationship’. All you need is guts to accept the reality and move on !
Here’s a relationship test you and your friends would like to take –
Unwanted Partner in your Partnership – Has criticism & contempt become the unwanted partners in your partnership?
http://www.3smartcubes.com/pages/tests/unwanted_partner/unwanted_partner_instructions.asp
Looking back over the EUM’s I can see that my imagination was hooking me far more than the actual man. I had an image in my head of how wonderful life would be if he lived up to his promises or if he lived up to my expectations (which were not too outrageous). However, there was a huge gap between what they said and what they did, and in the end I had to end the relationships. It then took A LONG TIME for my imagination to simmer down and for me to stop thinking what if, what if what if.
The only way out is no contact, the slightest contact kicks off the imagination and the what if again.
I would also add that this phenomenon is particular to EUMs and ACs. They tend to be show offs and make a good first impression, they have a lot of experience with women and know how how to hook us, they give you a lot of space (ignoring you, not returning calls etc) so your imagination can go into overdrive, and they rely heavily on texts/messaging/email which allow too much room for fantasies.
That’s how they get under our skin in a way that a normal, decent PRESENT guy does not.
We have to look at ourselves and ask the question. “What are we so afraid of that we have to throw so much time and energy at a man who ISN’T EVEN THERE?”
Its good to consider whether we get involved with these guys because we might have EU issues… but I cannot paint myself EU because of my one AC relationship.
The big question for me is why I refused to see the situation for what it was. My relationship was a mix of illusion, that hopeful picture I painted, and a delusion that came from getting to know the AC’s chaotic world of confusion. If you have no prior experience with manipulative narcissistic behavior you can get very lost in that world with them.
The good thing is that I got here and found a way out and began the recovery from some very real damage I inflicted on me by staying on with him on his terms.
The gift of the painful AC experience, as Nat has so aptly written about, is that these relationships can offer one a real epiphany. An epiphany is a rare gift of insight; that is valuable thing that cannot be bought or willed or conjured.
I grew up with a mother lost in a fantasy world and, without even knowing it, I worked so hard as a young girl to be down to earth and grounded and not like her. I was successful for decades until I got involved with the narky AC. I so easliy went down his rabbit hole future faker world of fantasy and I got more and more ungrounded without knowing why.
It was shocking when I understood that I had become just like my mother in that relationship, really out of touch with reality and living in some hopeful future picture I had painted.
But, with that came the epiphany. I am wise to the fact that I have a weakness towards painting a picture with these types of guys and my optimism and creativity just add fuel to that fire. Like dlite’s story above, I am pretty hip to this sort of thing now and my recovery has made me pay even more attention to what is really in front of me at all times.
Only now am I beginning to see the bigger picture, I love the idea of non negotiables but laughed to think of my own.
Number one for all of my adult life – I don’t cheat and will not tolerate anyone who does.
Um except that I usually got involved with attached men, so by definition they were cheating from day one, just not on me, and I went on to accept their infidelities as part of the deal. Obviously my main boundaries were a bit confused, now I see that. I honestly didn’t join the dots until recently.
I am still trying to remove the hooks (by now reduced to almost entirely sexual) that are very embedded in me so if there is a next time I will have a much clearer view of what is and is not acceptable to me in another human being, and I hope will have the courage to stand by my principles.
That’s interesting – becuase he was cheating ‘with’ you, he wasn’t cheating ‘on’ you? I guess it’s not ‘cheating’ if the ‘teacher’ knows. It’s like a student using the answer book right in front of the teacher, and the teacher saying, “Well, we all know they’re gonna cheat, so…at least he’s not lying about it.” At least he’s not cheating AND lying? Or, at least he’s not lying to ME?
You’re trying to take the sting out of the betrayal (self-fulfilling prophecy) by condoning it. I’ve never thought of it that way before. Thanks!
The way out:
1. Look at each day as a brand-new day, a day over which you have control, especially over the way that you feel; remember, no one can deny FACTS and how you FEEL about any things/facts; and:
2. Feel your feelings–don’t deny yourself your feelings; and:
3. Choose to love, not hate; and:
4. (In my opinion:) Pray. Have faith. A creator exists. Otherwise, how would everything in this world be so beautiful and work so perfectly together?
@Fearless
I relate to what you’re saying, about having to deal with the blatant non-response or having to engage only on his terms, the pain of being ignored, unacknowledged, unheard, unseen as a human being (maybe one possible way is to look at the AC as an incomplete human being with no self-recognition, hence he cannot interact with another). I cannot deal with the silence. It has in fact become so crippling, so habitual, that I find myself anticipating it, and I prefer not to contact him at all, rather than to deal with the anguish of having a no response.
Perhaps ACs choose to flee/disappear, because we represent and highlight aspects about their deficient personalities that they do not wish to confront. If loving, acceptance and respect are all intertwined, then perhaps the best and most compassionate thing to do is to let the AC go and not force to confront issues? I don’t know.
Like you, I feel very tempted to insert “a little pearl of wisdom”, because I think we’ve somehow internalized our roles or taken on responsibility for the AC’s well-being. I’ve always thought that because he shuns what he perceives as confrontation, the onus is then on me, to re-frame and communicate what I want to say (my grievances, my hurt feelings) in a non-antagonistic loving way.
So I attempted to do so in a jovial way, decorating the SMS with smileys that I thought would amuse him, since humor can function a good tool to deflect anger while retaining the original message. Instead, I realized that the message itself was completely lost on him. All I got was “u r cute”, “u r funny”. I wanted to break down. It simply fell on deaf ears, I realize that I was completely modifying myself in my attempt to reach out to him and I was not being true to myself. He had simply no capable antennae that could receive it. It’s a bit like asking a 5 year old to give an Immanuel Kant lecture to graduate students, one simply cannot.
I think it’s so important to find a healthy outlet to channel our pent-up anger and frustration, and maybe it’s necessary to live through it before arriving at indifference. Might it be an inevitable outcome after all the emotional exhaustion? Sometimes when the grief feels too intense, I wish that time could fast forward itself.
I have these fantasies of just lashing out (because I’d stayed silent 90% of the whole time, for fear of repelling him, for fear of appearing demanding, wanting to be complicit, but the price has been high). I think that at some point, we just need to do what is right, what would be the best thing to do for ourselves (and everyone seems to have different ways and emotional journeys when it comes to working things out). I’ve wondered whether anger can be cathartic– I wrote a blunt and angry letter a year ago (felt as if I could stick to my guns, then had a major relapse months later and regretted it later, and a year later, now, I am reading the letter and feeling that nothing I wrote could have been further from the truth.
A friend of mine called up her ex-AC to blast him over the phone (for justifiable reasons) and he hung up on her. I’ve thought about that– instead of allowing the anger to slowly sublimate and evaporate into indifference, would it give one the sense of having the last word/a sense of justice being done, regardless of whether he gets any sense of it? That having that one last angry telling off to the emotionally stunted AC, might be the best thing we do for ourselves because it is a form of catharsis, of release. To greet his indifference with indifference seems too easy, as if to let him get away scot-free, conveniently off the hook. Or might a confrontation just be an exercise in futility, because any attempt at engagement is still a sign that we are firmly in the AC’s sphere of influence? I’ve played out multiple scenarios in my head.. I guess this is still sign that the hooks are still there after the encounter is dead.
@JadeSesame
I was reading your post – and you could be in my mind. I have had every thought you verbalized. Regarding the anger – I’ve done all of them. Journal – keep it my self, then later I sent when I was angry about some more of the AC behavior. I have kept my mouth shut – just to explode in one “barf” session, demeaning and belittling him. AND of course I felt HORRIBLE for weeks and months after. I had done so much work on my anger and communications (talking directly w/ people). My 1st clue was when he stood me up and I said nicely please do not do that to me – his response was to say he would let me go (we were on the phone) and ignored my emails/phone calls for 5 days, standing me up for my cousins wedding, then breaking up with me. I was not allowed to say “Ouch” – he brought down my expectations, manipulated me, and I sold my soul – only I allowed it all. I let tons of my non-neogaibles slide – including telling him if he ever cheated on me I would be gone – but I stayed. I still don’t know if he slept with her – but he sure as hell had an emotional affair.
During all this (2 1/2 yrs) the most productive thing I did with my anger was cut contact and bought plates at the thrift stores and threw them at a concrete wall. I plan to do mosaic art with the shardes. It was good and liberating. I would voice each of my grievances and then pretend the wall was his face. It worked!
Thank you everyone – I have really needed you all thru this.
@Jade Sesame
I think I am in the same place as you, roughly. When I read your comments it could be the workings of my own mind. I am trying to unhook; I think for the first time ever I am even serious about it!
I do agree we eventually become unhooked – or indifferent to them -because it is so exhausting trying to hang on to the hooks and keep up all the picturing, especially when, as now, I am more clued up with what his problem actually is – trying to make it work with this guy is like trying to climb a greasy pole!
I have done the rage and anger thing – they do just hang up, or reach for their coat as if there’s a fire in the house, and you are left with your fury all by yourself, again. I wouldn’t recommend it. Silence I think speaks volumes. Show them a clean pair of heels. They know then you have voted with your feet. I am not shrinking violet with this man; I can go ballistic with him; I have tried it all. Nothing works. They are seriously wanting. They have no means to do anything differently; or to make the connections.
The most consistent thing they bring to the relationship is their ‘absence’. To pinch NML’s ideas for a moment; he is not in this relationship with me. I am riding solo to Miseryville via Miseryville.Get off the horse.
To stop me contacting him today, I wrote out every reason I could think of for why it is a bad idea to contact him. I had 38 reasons!
I didn’t make contact. I am v glad now. One of those reasons was same as yours. I can’t bear the anguish of his silence. And even if I got a response, which I wouldn’t unless I sent him an invitation to continue with his nonsense, it would be just more of the same crap arrangement.
I particularly like my No. 19
(Maybe others will too):
19. Confusion, hurt, dishonesty and disappointment are not kindly, well-intentioned gentlemen callers. Close the door.
F
Jade, he is not responding because he knows he can – he knows you will keep contacting him, he blows you off and you keep contacting him. You are right, he can’t relate to people, he can’t relate to anybody. Men like him make lousy boyfriends, lousy friends, lousy co-workers, lousy fathers, lousy everything. You are right, the best thing to do is to let him go, that would be the best thing for YOU. If you think it will make you feel better, lash out at him and then be done with him.
Go NC, with time you will feel better, you are not walking on eggshells anymore, not waiting to see what he will do next – probably nothing anyway. Take care of yourself.
@JadeSesame,
What a beautifully written response! Everything you have written is so similiar to what I have gone through in the past couple of months. I moved to a new city which only magnified my sense of isolation and the being ignored and the AC not returning my calls, etc was absolutely crushing. Last we talked (nearly two weeks ago) it was me calling him after sending nasty text message. Any little crumb he would or wouldn’t throw my way would make or break my day. I found myself lamenting over him to the point where it was detracting from my career, friendships, etc. I have chosen not to call or text him since we last spoke because like you, and I suspect many others, the silence is just too painful. It’s just not worth it and I have to say, since I erred on the side of self-preservation and have been reading these incredibly helpful posts – my awareness is heightening and sadly, I see our situation for what it really was.
I think we’re all finally seeing our situations for what they really were, thanks to NML, and that’s why there are a lot of very depressed people on the comments right now! Depression is good in a way though – it’s the final step before ‘acceptance’.
Funnily enough, my ex EU’s Fallback Girl before me actually sent him a long, ranting, angry email that did make him feel bad and think about what he’d done – temporarily. He was talking to me about it (before we got back together the last time) and said that she hadn’t told him anything he didn’t know – i.e. that he’s a selfish a*sehole – but that it did make him stop and think ‘wow, yeah, i’m an a*sehole’. You know what he’s doing about it now? Nothing. He still got back together with me knowing he had nothing to offer, he still dumped me two weeks later (after the usual AC/EU ‘i miss you’ song complete with ‘i’m sure i want to be with you’ dance). He’s now carrying on exactly as he’s always done. Maybe he’s a little more considerate, because when he dumped me he said ‘it’s wrong to string you along while i figure out what it is i want’ and hasn’t contacted me since, but he’s still living his life (at home with his mum) in the usual way, still an EU, still doing absolutely everything on his own terms, still not getting involved with anyone because it ‘complicates’ and ‘inconveniences’ his life. That’s how they see relationships after the initial high of infatuation, as an ‘inconvenience’!
You can rant and rave all you want and you MAY make them feel like crap for a little while, but if they do really change, it will be when THEY want to change and not a minute sooner. These guys do everything on THEIR terms, remember?
I like the throwing plates at the wall idea; sounds like great fun and at least you know the outcome will be satisfactory :).
Yeah, I agree with the no-confrontation. When AC dumped my ass, I wrote a 5000 word email outlining in such a sensible and kind way (I have read it a few times since and I am quite astounded by the level of insight and self-composure – it was that reprieve before the shock wore off and pain and trauma set in!) the reasons why his handling of the relationship and the break-up was unhealthy, unnecessary and unfortunate. It was a really compassionate email, no begging, firm but not too self-righteous. Anyway, want to know the reason why I did NOT send it (besides knowing that emotional emails should never be sent, if at all possible)?
Because I remembered him saying that an ex confronted him with all his shortcomings after they broke up…and his response?
‘You have to be grateful to these people who bother to tell you these things about yourself. It was good stuff to think about.’
It did not make him go back to her, it did not make him change in any radical way. At best it translated into a modicum of nostalgic respect for the woman, but in a kind of distant, condescending way. Her emotional investment was certainly not paid off. I recognize that life is not about things being even – I have benefitted from many teachers (formal and informal) in my life. But I think if there’s any tinge of wanting a future relationship with these people or even wanting some form of validation and respect, it’s highly unlikely to happen. This kind of angry plea/purge is either avoided (met with blank stares) or else seen as fodder for romantic, private self-pity. Unless this person comes to you for a heartfelt chat, I would say that a confrontation is probably only going to make you wish you could have another one to modify the confrontation or to even apologise for it. And then his response will, almost invariably, make you feel depressed or at least very low.
(But I say this in full knowledge that I have fantasized about the debrief conversation many times, and still do from time to time. Best to go with Kipling if you can, and start again at your beginnings and never breathe a word about your loss. Would be wholly different if you were still in a relationship – where honest, direct comms is crucial – or if you truly thought there was the basis for a decent friendship there.)
Elle – Just had the debriefing conversation with my AC yesterday. Like you, I had had it many times in my head and had hoped for the opportunity. It was nothing like I had hoped and I am sorry I did it. He was extremely hostile, refused any accountability, berated and belittled me and paced like a caged animal the entire time. Nothing good came of it and if possible, things are even worse now. In my head (more picturing, I know), he had shown remorse and empathy and we had been able to reestablish the friendship I had valued (and thought he had). In reality, he went from indifference to rage then condescension. He walked out, getting the last word. It could not have gone worse. Maybe its better to keep having the conversation in our heads. Any real ones are unlikely to bring any real closure. The only closure I got was confirmation that he is a narcisstic assclown and not the man I had imagined in my head the whole time. I guess there is comfort in now knowing he was a mirage – I really am not missing anything by his being gone.
Yuck. That sounds so distasteful. Sorry that happened to you. It’s such a crap (but interesting, in the bigger picture) thing how fragile the human ego is, how he is obviously holding on so tightly to an image he has of himself, that one chink to it is perceived by him as fatal.
I find the condescending response the worst – that’s precisely what I got from my AC, things like ‘You’re the one who is so desperate to be married, I am being the responsible one here in leaving you!’ [ironing over the fact that he was equally, if not more, into the marriage talk!]. It’s classic…but also hideous, and a tone most people grow out of in their teens or at least early 20s.
Anyway, I think you can take something from this, a real sense that you’re not missing out, that you’re well rid of him, and that these qualities of his are pretty stable, and can’t make a healthy relationship. You want a man who can stand still in the storm.
@JadeSesame
I read your comments and saw so many similarities in the behavior of our AC’s- the silent treatment I feel is what really put me over the emotional edge. My AC had the nerve to completely lie to me and hide that he was still married and was still in contact with his wife. When I looked in his phone and found that she was begging him to go to counseling I confirmed what my gut had been telling me. When I asked him if he was still married he didn’t respond. His reaction was to tell me that I had “trust issues” and left in the middle of the night. He would of rather had me believe that there was something wrong with me. Then he completely cut off all communication, and email and put my phone calls to voice mail. I felt like he was controlling it all. I felt powerless. It was during this time that I was also scheduled to have surgery. I so badly wanted to “clear things up” before I went in to to surgery. I was apologizing for looking in his phone when he was lying to me about being married. He let me grovel for my mistake!! He knew I was going to have surgery and the stress of all it was hard on me! I just wanted that last bit of REAL DIRECT communication and he never was able to pick up the phone. He couldn’t even break it off properly, and I got a dissmissive email a day before my procedure that basically said “don’t hate me, good luck with your surgery, sorry” Basically, he was done with me. It was all very simple for him. He was so cold and heartless, i felt like I didn’t even know who he was.
It was only through efforts via my friends and family that I found out the truth about his marriage and even then, it was hard for me to accept. It was hard to accept that he lied to me from the very beginnning, about everything, faked a future with me, and I didn’t believe that he had been totally infatuated or inlove with me…. he just wanted all the highs, but none of the lows. What you wrote about the AC fleeing and dissapearing is so right on for his character. What a pathetic boy/child he is! Even what you said about how he reacts to any kind of confrontation, and changing the way you communicated with him… all of it shows me how I was bending to please him when it shouldn’t be this hard to communicate or get the truth from someone.
I am getting my head together finally, and as time goes by, I am healing. He really broke my heart, or my “illusion” of who I thought he was and who I fell in love with, really broke my heart. My AC was toxic to my life. I have wanted answers but what answers I get, will not come from him. I have been so angry and wanting to lash out, I like the plate idea and I will think of something that will help me deal with my emotions in a more creative and helpful manner.
I am thankful to NML for her blog as it has allowed me to see myself and how I am relating in my relationships more clearly; and how I can improve my self so that I can be a healthy and loving partner some day in a REAL relationship 🙂 . I am going on a bull*hit diet starting today. I am finally unhooking!
The justice bit gets us all! I was faced with a watered down version of what you did, @left wondering – the sudden break-up and flee, minimizations, and ridicule of ANY reaction I had to the point where he was laughing at my tears. What we want is some outside arbiter to recognize that their behaviour was somewhere on the poor judgment to psychopathic scale, and, ideally, for them to acknowledge that, and, even more ideally, for us to experience some form of retribution or compensation (it’s a pretty natural human instinct to want justice). But, in these non-legal, intimate matters, with society being the way it is, it doesn’t happen like that, and it won’t.
It’s such a hard thing, but that’s the test, I guess: seeing it for what it was, accepting that people (us included) do sh* things, knowing yourself that your boundaries were breached and that being enough, channelling anger in a creative, healthy way, working out what you’re really missing out on and grieving it, and somehow ducking it all, letting the injury pass by you, like some really awesome Matrix slow-mo karate move!
I sometimes wonder if I am now hooked more to the injustice of the whole thing than to him as a person now. Yes, he had some excellent qualities (and they were pretty intoxicating) and I still want a hit of whatever it is he gave me at the start, but I filled in the rest of it on the basis of my values and family traits: consistency, warmth, reliability, courage, dedication and decency. These were actually never there in the solid, enduring sense, if I think about it, honestly, now. His warmth was more in the form of an anxious need for my attention and trust, but then once he had it, it was of very little value. It’s was awfully instrumental. He wanted to be with me, but the reality of me was a let-down for him (and I don’t say that to put myself down, it’s just that he is a man of fantasy, above all and it made him feel awful that I was a person with needs, foibles, and an outwardness he perceived as uncontrollable).
I strongly suspect I am addicted to the lingering pain of injustice, as childish as that probably sounds.
Dear ladies,
Thank you for sharing your experiences, wisdom and personal stories on what confronting the AC was like and your thoughts on the aftermath. I have derived much inspiration and insight from you all, much strength and solidarity, it amazes me to hear of how uncannily alike our cookie cutter ACs are, how we’re all from different parts of the world, unknown to each other and are going through these complex emotional trajectories. I appreciate this empathy, support and I am thankful for NML for bringing this community together.
The common thread seems to be that we all have a desire for justice. We have all realized that these men are toxic and that our lives are much better without them. There might be vestiges of missing, yearning, desire, but we’ve all realized that it’s time to move on and to simultaneously get unhooked and enforce no contact. We know that there is the utter absense of mutual love and respect, none of these men seem capable of truly comprehending and acknowledging the hurt that they inflicted, and much of the anguish must stem from this disbelief, incomprehension. If the emotionally bankrupt AC with the EQ of an earthworm can’t even have the decency to cancel a casual DATE, but prefers to leave his woman as the one waiting, cannot honor a simple promise of making a phone call, how can one expect him to do something like break up in a mature fashion? Or let alone recognize our pain, apologize?
@Elle
I relate to your sentiments on “being hooked on the injustice”. Thank you for your advice on why I should not explode in anger, you have said it well. I do want to slap the man and give him a good shake up on how he is such a sadist, but at the most it seems that he will only retreat into become a detached, amused spectator watching a circus act, laughing at my angry hysterics. It seems that the more intelligent breed of ACs know that there is something wrong with them but they’re just too stuck in their old habits to want to change, because real change is difficult, painful confrontation with the past.
I asked my AC why his ex wife was being so nasty towards him, all he did was to grin, shrug, and say “because she thinks she has the right to do so”. He labelled her as mentally unsound. He has paid dearly for his unawareness where his ex wife left the country with this daughter without his consent. I wish such a crisis would provoke some actual contemplation, thought and self-reflection… one of the hooks that kept me in the encounter, was that I’d imagined he was traumatized by the ex wife from hell, that all he needed was patience and encouragement, but no, it seems that he is carrying on living his life, perpetuating his thoughtless, insensitive behaviour. Now, it is clear to me that she is mentally unsound because of him. Maybe losing his child is the biggest kind of retribution and I have fantasies of telling this to his face all the time.. some people atone and reform, some just don’t. Why is it so important for me to want him to reform? And then in the midst of my anger that comes in spurts… I see this image of him as the wounded child. I see myself as the wounded child trying to heal, trying to address the wounded child side of him.
@left wondering, Fearless, debra
I feel your indignation, your anger. And if anything at all, perhaps the unpleasant encounters with the ACs might affirm and strengthen one’s resolve and determination to discard them for good. They were no good creatures before they met us, when they were with us and will be long after we’re gone. Why should they be the ones who chuck us, when we, as intelligent, sensitive, thoughtful women, should be the ones doing the selection and quality control? We should be the ones bidding them good riddance, not crawling back to their heels, trying to reconcile, trying to think if we made any mistakes by over exerting our demands.
@Fearless, I made me own list on why I should unhook and go no contact with the AC. After I wrote the list, I realized that there was nothing I respected about this man, I had 45 points on why he was a lousy person, lousy lover, partner etc. etc. it was the crumbs, the drama, the ambiguity that kept me hooked, the unhealthy over sympathy and the image I’d constructed of him in my own mind. It is the first time I am truly wanting and seeing why I need to do this. I’d previously done NC in a half baked way, as an emotional reaction, like a drug addict on no turkey but not seeing why drugs were fatal, not because every pore and cell was screaming for me to disengage myself from the AC. I think that at the end of the day, we all want to move towards self-healing and growth. The question is why I had to allow myself to endure so much torment, allowing every crumb to make or break my day, before getting out? I feel as if I was sitting in a house that was already feriously consumed my flames, and yet I told myself that I’d be unscathed, it was only a little match flame.
@Aimee
I too, was gagged and prohibited from saying ‘ouch’. Love your personal ritual of throwing plates on a wall! I would do that too. Or some equivalent.
Thank you for all your sharing and stories again, ladies. For myself, I have to go NC, because I’ve decided I’m not going to put up with the fury of having no reply to my sms, the indignity of not have my calls answered, and I can’t march up to the AC to scratch his eyes out because I live in a different city. I am pissed that the AC is withholding my belongings and is getting a kick knowing that I am trying to get them back, or to demand compensation, because it seems that he lost some of them. Maybe over the next few months, when I am more calm, I will internalize why NC sans anger is the best. I wish the best for us all. Xx.
@JS (re your house fire metaphor) I think a massive part of the reason why it takes a while to be cajoled into action – i.e. to leave an unhealthy relationship – is because a relationship with these sorts of men is akin to the frog on a bunsen burner experiment, in which the frog will immediately leap out of a boiling beaker, but allow itself to burn to death when the temperature is turned up slowly from tepid to boiling.
With their charming ways, their anxious, baby-like attempts at wooing, their sad stories, their artful language, combined with our fantasies/picturing and naturally trusting/communitarian mindsets (and less than sturdy boundaries), I think their sudden, but steady fault-finding and passive aggression, withdrawal and mixing the water temperature until final burn out (boiling for us, cold for them), means that we can be like the stunned froggies in the beaker.
And yes, seeing them as wounded children is better than regarding them as big, adult monsters, as far as our healing goes. But apart from sending subliminal messages of love or acceptance, we can’t actually heal that child, especially not without their permission and co-operation. We each have our own inner children to deal with! And they’re still totally responsible for the way they react to that pain and handle themselves as adults. As we all are. ; )
What I am thinking more of is the idea of ‘preferences’ (enforceable preferences) rather than ‘expectations’ and ‘demands’. The former is empowering, the latter reactive:
‘I would have preferred AC to behave in a certain way, but he didn’t because of his own reasons and limitations. I cancel my expectations and demands of him because he is responsible for his choices and deeds, and holding onto these expectations and demands is tying myself to the hurt that is associated with him.’
Then you have to do the same thing for yourself – forgive yourself for not enforcing your own preferences, for own reasons and limitations.
Man, the picturing concept is really hitting home with me right now. I now see I do it big time and I think my ex AC does a fair share as well. After months of NC, we have twice tried to “work through” our issues so that we can work together. He had come back trying to hit reset and pretend nothing had happened, I was expecting an apology. After weeks of not talking or acknowledging each other, we had our first talk. I told him I thought he was an AC and that he needed to apologize for hurting me. He didn’t think he needed to. I told him I didn’t trust him and didn’t want to pursue a friendship. I found out yesterday from a mutual work friend that he had spent the weekend preparing a presentation, including a selection of emails from me to him, as well as dates and conversation and he had shown this to our friend, painting me as a pathetic, jealous liar who couldn’t accept rejection. I confronted him and got more rewriting of history and denials of things he had said literally minutes before. My picture or story was that he was an AC and that I was better off without him. His picture or story was that I was a jealous loser and that he had nothing to feel bad about or apologize for. Unless one of us gives up their story or picture, our work place has become a war zone. I concede at this point we both were wrong in the end – he felt he had turned it back into a friendship (although he didn’t tell me) and I was still carrying the picture of the relationship in my head. I felt I was owed an honest and direct conversation when he had changed his mind about pursuing the relationship- he feels he had sort of, kind of told me indirectly. In a sense, seeing him as an AC is protective – I know not to believe what he says, not to expect anything from him and of course there is no hope of a relationship at this point. I am not certain my boundaries are strong enough to give up on the image of him as assclown just yet. Clearly there is still alot of emotion on both sides.
It’s weird, I have been generally feeling so much better as time has gone on, but the grief seems to come in waves… every few days there’s another unexplained build up where I feel such a loss for the few special things that kept me so hooked, that I will never find them again. The fact that I was willing to sacrifice my sanity for a couple of things is clearly off, and yes it’s true – I will never find again someone so full on that they make love to me and then go out to a function while I stay there… maybe I glorified the time not because he was good to me, but because I had to be a bloody saint to deal with it! Maybe that’s what I am grieving – that I sooo wanted praise for all the sacrifices I made and I got no praise except him disappearing… maybe I am still waiting for the adulation of my efforts being rewarded. Still waiting for the ‘prize’ that never came but was promised. Yeah, right!
Interestingly I have never felt scared to confront someone before like with him, and when I did pluck up the courage and called him it did help to get clarity as to what I was dealing with. I mainly made the decision to contact him because it took more courage to call him than to avoid him, I felt I just had to go there to move forward. I don’t know why I feel so scared to be blatant with him, I know I am still vulnerable and emotional but what am I really scared of I wonder? Am I really just scared of the fantasy being completely shut down? It all felt real until his sudden change of attitude. Can he really hurt me or am I in some sort of shock / fragmented state?
I guess it comes down to, why am I carrying on like this and protecting him by not saying what I need to say to him, regardless of what he does or doesn’t do with it? My reasons for contact or no contact need to be about me, and not what I would like from him or hope on any level as he may not have anything worthwhile to contribute. If it makes me feel more resolved then do it, if I need to stay no contact then so be it, but the journey remains within me – I cannot expect anything from him – just to hear the sad reality. Still not entirely clear on this but that’s where I’m at now. Thanks for your contributions and support, Dianna.
@ Dianna
I just wanted to say that my grief comes in waves also and although I am doing much better today, tomorrow I may feel down again.Take that spot light off of the AC/EUM and put it on to yourself (in a kind and caring way, not critical). Each time I find my mind wandering to the thoughts of the “how’s and why’s” of this negative faux-relationship- I try to remind myself that this thought process really isn’t helpful to me. I will not get it figured out and he will not provide me any answers, so… I have to drop it and move on, find peace somehow and really move past it. If I have to find a new hobby to occupy my time so be it or throw plates at a wall…so be it. Some days I literally want a reprieve from my brain! I feel my thoughts about the lying AC have been obesessive and I don’t like it. It doesn’t serve me to keep this painful process going, and me turning all these ideas over and over in my head, provides no me benefit – only keeps me stuck in sadness.
Be kind to yourself, gather good friends around you. Go out and buy a new music CD, take a long walk or plan something fun. Do anything you can think of to bring the focus back on to yourself and your healing.
Hugs.
@ Dianna
It is healthy to grief and to allow oneself to grief, it is part of the spectrum of emotions, together with betrayal, anger, the pain of feeling ignored, used. Try to take comfort in the fact that they come in waves, waves come and go and they pass, and if grief feels like an all consuming, powerful tidal wave, do tell yourself that rebirth can come after destruction, and then new beginnings always emerge at the end of a cycle! I have been following your thread on the previous post. Like you, I feel downright miserable and depressed, because the AC didn’t appreciate me, not only did he not love me, while I did believe that I tried my absolute darn best to prove that I was lovable, I was an attractive partner, I inconvenienced myself from him, never complained, put any pressure etc etc.. instead, not only did he fail to reciprocate my affections, but he kept my things, ignored my calls to retrieve them, disappeared. Perhaps one possible thing to do is to see him for who he is, in the context of the behaviour he has shown you consistently, not based on a few significant precious moments… I think when these moments are so few, so fleeting, so precious, we tend to hold on to them for dear life, to use NML’s analogy, to mistake crumbs for an overblown loaf of bread.
I feel that when we try to rationalize their behaviour, it’s really about them, they had problems way before we came onto the scene and will carry on with their problems after we’re gone. It’s not about us not being good enough, not about us being worthy of their love, but because they are incapable of receiving love and affection. Ive learnt that if you want to show love to someone, the other person must be able to receive it, and more importantly, I do want it to be mutual, not a one woman show! I’ve learnt now, that I don’t need to prove and work so hard to be lovable and attractive, because I know I am, I will not invest anything in another person that cannot love me back because that is destructive to my self esteem. I’ve stopped making excuses for him and protecting him, to continue to do so only prevents me from getting in touch with reality, that he is an AC. I cannot expect any decent behaviour out of an AC and if I choose to carry on with him with my martyr complex and self-sacrificial approach, I will ravage myself, be continually depressed, feel emotionally vulnerable, disempowered and unloved. I think love isn’t meant to be expressed this way.
It does feel like the sad reality now, I do empathize with the pain of rejection and the idea that we all tried, tried so hard, and still wasn’t enough, is a devastating and shattering thought. No one likes to be rejected, we all crave acceptance. But why do we crave acceptance from men who cannot offer it?
I hope you’re doing all that you can to keep yourself happy, uplifted, surround yourself by positive thoughts. and I wish you courage in moving forward in your journey. I hope that over time, you will realize that what seems like a “sad reality” really isnt so sad, you deserve someone who appreciates your love and can love you.
@JadeSesame – My AC kept my things as well – the one that hurt the most is he had all the pictures from our travels and holidays for the first year and half after my mom died. I truly begged for these pictures cause they were the first year w/o my mom. He kept them from me for almost 2 yrs – when I finally didn’t care anymore is when he was willing to give them to me – I didn’t want them anymore.
I believe it is one of their tactics to keep you “hooked”. It did me, it was his leverage to keep contact with me. Also believe it shows their absolute immaturity. I on the other hand gave him all his stuff – left it on his front porch and then called from down the block as I didn’t want it to get stolen. His reply was “this is so easy for you”. He has no clue and doesn’t even care to know.
Thanks for your encouraging posts for everyone – they help!
I read an article on another website that reinforces what Natalie says about “hooks” and “crumbs.”
This article indicated that when a significant other inflicts “pain” (even if it’s EMOTIONAL pain….) the “hook” goes deeper. And throwing the “crumbs” at you is an exaggeration of Pavlov’s theory. You know the one. Positive reinforcement. Instead of giving you regular positive reinforcement, the significant other gives you “intermittent” reinforcement. When someone gives you “intermittent” reinforcement (the crumbs), you become more “needy.” And then the A/C can turn it around on you and say YOU are the “needy” one.
I’m dealing with this. I’ve had some bad relationships in my life, and my last one wasn’t the worst I have ever had. But it’s the worst for taking THIS LONG to get over it. This is the “deepest” the “hooks” have ever gotten into me. He had some good qualities that we were compatible on and it was hard to leave that. But the A/C behavior was just too much. I couldn’t take it. I wish I could find out something really really bad, because then maybe my heart would let go. I still picture us together. I need to unload the “picture” from my brain…..
6 months NC as of today!! Hooray!! I just felt the need to post since today will mark 6 months full NC(not slipping up not even once on my end) and him ofcourse phoning me several times during the whole 6 months. Its amazing how they’ll try to push that dam reset button if you let them. I never even gave him so much as a crack back into my life. When you know better you do better. I know I have a long way to go but I think I’ve done pretty good and I must say that I don’t miss him at all. Going back to the same old piece of narcissist; unvailable ; mind game playing; manipulating BS? The grass is much greener and sun is actually on the other side.
Hi Everyone – I am really struggling the last 2 days.
@JadeSesame – I did do the angry thing and have been labeled the mentally unstable one – psycho b****h. In his last 2 emails he told me I needed to go take my medicine and that he would not give me my dog as I might take my pain out on him. He also told me all his neighbors believe I am psycho and will be calling the police if they see me in his neighborhood. He went as far as to copy my brother on this email. It was lovely. I never responded and have been NC for 22 days – when I read these I thought “this guy has no idea who I am” and I knew that in my heart and was calm about it. But now??
I am doubting myself – like maybe I AM the crazy one. I have always been the one that would do self-evaluation to try and grow but have gone overboard blaming myself for “everything”. Like it was all my fault and if I had just done this or that it would have been ok. I believe this is my way of trying to have control – so I can “fix” everything and “feel” better. But I am powerless.
I can’t seem to shut my head up – maybe I am the crazy one? maybe it was all my fault? I was too insecure? I asked too much? I should have left earlier? Why did I do this to myself? How could he use me? Was my interpretation of him really that off? I bet he and the new (old FBG) are just so happy! She’s probably moving in and they will live happily ever after! He realized that he loved her (they were broke up for 6 1/2 yrs) and they will be happy! Why couldn’t he love me? etc. STOP!!! I want my head to shut-up!! Yes I do have a part, but why am I so hard on myself?
The grief is killing me – I miss my mom – she died in the midst of all this and of course he was not there for me – it was him, him, him. I’m so tired of trying to keep myself up. I am so sad. Any encouragement would be greatly appreciated! I need to get the energy up to go break some plates! I hate him so much right now and of course my spiritual side is saying “not good” – he is wounded pray for him – but I just can’t right now. I hate him.
Aimee,
You know are NOT crazy.
You know these guys are masters at messing with our heads.
Last week, after months of NC, I heard from my AC again and it really threw me — even though I didn’t respond. And I was furious at myself for caring (and crying!).
Well, guess what. In less than a week I feel fine again.
And I didn’t talk to him, and I kept my power.
Yeah!
You know what *crazy* would be?
Not caring that someone you trusted would hurt you,
Not caring that someone you honored had disrespected you.
Not caring that someone you cherished would slander you.
It’s not crazy to have enough self-respect to honor yourself, your dignity and your feelings, in spite of suffering assault on all three fronts.
You should expect no less from yourself.
Hang in there Aimee; I’m cheering for you!
Over It xo
@ JadeSesame – I forgot that the mother of his son who use to live about 20 blocks from him up and moved out of the city 2 yrs ago – now I know why. He use to say that she was turning his son against him. He has not seen his son in 4 years. He quit paying his child support when she moved him.
Also – as a side note – my old abusive AC from 22 years ago just asked me to be his friend on FB and sent a message 2 days ago. Do they really have ESP – I have not heard from him in 10 yrs (when my house burned down). They always seem to know when you are down. His subject line was: no long time no see. I thought about sending a one liner subject line: there is a reason for that a**hole. But I will not be responding at all. Unbelievable – he really thinks I want to be his friend? You have got to be kidding me!! Even 22 yrs later!
Aimee!!! Chin up sweet heart! Don’t beat yourself up. You have risen above this before, and you will again. Stop focusing on what you THINK you might have done wrong–you did NOTHING wrong! You gave to someone who was unable to give back–YOU KNOW THIS already hon. He proved he was unable to reciprocate in any way. He was not there for you, any REAL man would have been there for YOU and WITH you , to help you through your mothers passing. This is HIS flaw, NOT yours. Damn, I think coffee would do us some good! Hugs to you hon!
Editing to say, the fact that you hate him, your angry at him, is a good thing! You are going through the stages of getting over him-soon you will be indifferent, I finally am! And it feels so good! But like you, I had to hit that hate him angry phase, once I did it was uphill from there. Just remember, YOU are worth SO MUCH MORE! Anger is not a sin hon, it is an emotion that comes from healing when we have been through the ringer of an AC.
@Aimee
this guy is a bad man (sounds silly, but true). You need to be much kinder to yourself and protect yourself more from his assaults.
Do some things for yourself to help yourself through this very bad patch…actively, DO it. Force yourself.
Little things can help. NML has lots of advice. Pick a few and do them. I have done a few things this week that helped me over a bad few days…e.g..
. write down all the reasons it is not a good idea to contacthim/or give him any more of your time or space. Even just DOING it makes you feel more in control – and read what you have wriiten every day.
Allow yourself only one hour, or such like, of the day to think of him/”it” and no more. Put it in your diary! If you find yourself thinking of him outside of the “allowed” time. DO something else. Anything else, and literally push these thoughts out of your mind. Get in control of what goes on in your own head. It is your head, not his. Don’t give him that as well!! Go fo a walk – read abook – ANYTHING. But you need to realise that your healtth and well-being are very important and you need to actively take charge of that. Do what it takes.
Every day, do something YOU enjoy. Even for half an hour. But do it. It is our own inaction and lack of self care that can be so dibilitating and destructive.
Think of what your mother would want for you. I am a mother and in my absence I would want my cherished daughter to do for herselff what I could not do for her or help her with (if I were absent or gone from this mortal world). Your mother does not want you to suffer like this. She wants you look after yourself, love yourself and stay FAR away from people who would hurt you.
Seek the company of people who care about you. People in your family pehaps that will make you feel more grounded, part of something beyond “him” and part of something bigger than yourself (if you have a religious faith, draw on it). He is not where your life begins and ends..!! You are an imprtant part of something much bigger than him and his nonsense.
We are all rooting for you Aimee.. seek some peace and tranquility, wherever you can find it. You deserve to be loved, so do it.
xx
@Aimee,
Sorry to hear about what you are going through. You are not crazy, the guy is. He’s doing his smear campaign, stirring up drama to try to break you, brainwash all your neighbours, friends and family to see you as the aggressor, him as the victim. By doing NC and very rightly so, you’re infuriating him because he wants to get a reaction out of you, all these tactics are done to push you over the limits, these sick sadistic men can’t deal with indifference, they’re not interested in your well being, they believe they are the ones who are suffering.
I’m sorry that you have to deal with the grief of losing your mother, in the midst of all this. It must be really distressting. I hope you can draw upon your inner strength in order to tide you through all this. Try to channel your anger somewhere, release it, smash a plate, write letters and burn them, and all this you do, do it for yourself as a way of exorcising the presence of an unwanted man. Stick to NC, it is the best approach. And meanwhile, seek comfort in the company of your friends and loved ones. You’ll only emerge stronger, more empowered at the end of it all. Do all that it takes that can make you happy, we are the creators of our own happiness and realities. Lousy men do not deserve to be in this sphere. Do take care and be well.
@ Aimee,
Just wanted to send you my support and encouragement and tell you that you WILL get through this difficult time of your life and you WILL be okay. Stop doubting yourself hon! I beat myself up too. AC behavior has a way of making you think you are crazy. They say one thing and do another, there actions never align with their words/promises. I went through the phase of beating my self up and thinking that I should of seen signs or the red flags. Don’t be so hard on yourself. We are not perfect people and we all have our faults and areas we can improve.
If he wasn’t there for you when you lost your mom then you are better off with out this man in your life. That is awful, here is someone that should love and support you and loosing a parent is a huge deal! You deserved better, and one day soon you will come to see that you are NOT crazy. I really wish you all the best for a speedy break up recovery! I found that my grief of the loss of the hope for the relationship was tied into alot of other issues in my life. Maybe some of the strong grief are feeling also is connected to the loss of your mother from your life too. I had to get clear on what I was really grieving the loss of.
We are here for you Aimee!!!
You guys are the best – thank you!! Doing better the last few days!!
Aimee! So glad you are doing better sweetie! I have been worried about you. You are cared for. Stay strong hon, you CAN and Will get over this! I have faith in you. You have a beautiful heart and are a loving and lovable person. Stay strong my friend, you are doing great!
Dear Natalie,
Great article. Thank you. In my case the relationship isin’t ever going to go anywhere because the man is just plain unable to commit – the reality in my situation.
Question still remains-what do you do when your still are in love? How do you get rid of the feelings of love that you have for him? My point is yes-I have faced the reality but that doesn’t change the fact that I still love him. My love doesn’t just go away because of the reality that he can’t commit.
Dawn,
I know what you mean; this is the hard part!
But the point is that you are in love with an illusion – are you really in love with a man who can (I assume) treat you so badly? What are you actually in love with? This is what NML suggests we try to get to the bottom of, and when you do, you begin t see that whatever it is you think you love, is not actually there.. it’s wishful thinking.
Also, love is something you DO…something you GIVE.. how can you love someone when they are ‘absent’… it’s very hard! And you can’t give someone your love when it’s an unwanted gift. We have asked for his permission to love him (or whatever we imagine “him” to be) and he has said ‘no thanks’. That really should be the matter done. What’s to love?
That’s the bottom line. So we can love him all we like but we are pouring ourselves (and our love) into a black hole.
We should not be ruled (or more correctly, over-ruled) by our heart, is all I’m saying.. it doesn’t know any better!
You do NC.
Get him out of your life and you can grieve properly (rather as if he had died).
You can’t grieve properly if you’re still seeing him, talking to him or, God forbid, sleeping with him. YOU HAVE TO FEEL THE LOSS. It hurts like hell, it’s supposed to.
It took me over 3 years to get over my ex. With hindsight, I could have got that down to a year if I had cut him off sooner.
@ Grace,
Can you explain to me what you meant when you said “….it’s supposed to hurt?”
It’s a break up. It’s a broken heart. No-one enjoys that. The end of a relationship is a top stressor, along with buying a house or a death.
When you love someone those feelings don’t just go away.
Healing is a painful process that you have to work through, which takes time. However, I will say that if there is no let up after six months to a year, that you may be clinging on too much to the mirage or the fiction created in your own mind.
And I can’t say it enough – cut off contact. Otherwise your world will still revolve around what he said, what he may be thinking, what he did etc etc. All that is irrelevant now. ( It was irrelevant at the time if you were dealing with an AC)
Amen – cut contact. It is honestly the only thing that will truly allow you to see him and the relationship for what they really are – mostly in your imagination. As long as he is around, he’s real, even if “he” isn’t “real”. Once you get him out of your life, you will start to see things differently, you will begin to recognize the “love” really is “need” and that it was probably all one sided. That’s what all these posts about hooks and picturing realy are about – seeing things as they really are. Doing this saved me – it ended the heart ache, it got me thinking clearly and seeing the relationship as it was – a mirage of happiness I had created in my head with someone who was distant and ambivalent enough to let me project all over him. It hurt like hell in the beginning but it stopped – I promise. Three months out I literally cannot see a single cell of the man I used to care for (and I work everyday with my AC). It was all a picture, and what I though was love and caring was just my need for validation and my desire for a loving relationship. It hurt to realize he didn’t really care about me (he can’t really care about anyone but himself), but better to know that now then later. Stay strong, focus on you and what you need and want. It will get so much better.
“Just because there are grains of truth in something though, doesn’t make it actually true. You stick around because you hope that how you see things will reveal itself if you just wait around long enough. The pain that you experience is reality piercing the denial bubble.”
nat, thank you for the wonderful articles. i feel so liberated after reading them.
i was with a MM for almost 2 years (broke up and got back so many times) and we finally split up (for real) last weekend. i really love him because he accepts me for who i am and doesn’t try to change me or criticize me for things i do or did. but just like the usual ‘unique’ circumstances, i don’t know if he is consciously manipulating me to stay or if he is just generally indecisive because of his so-called responsibilities. i knew we started on the wrong foot and when i tried to break away fruitlessly, he would always come back for me, asked for more time yada yada. we did set deadlines, but often it would only be the last few seconds of the deadline that reality struck me, hard. it gets harder each time but it also makes me more determined as well. other times, he would not give me an answer, and you know ‘no reply is a reply’. he rationalizes his actions by saying he can’t decide between me and his daughter and even though he does not love his wife like the way he loves me, he wants his daughter to have a complete family.
for the last deadline when he gave no reply but later started bugging me again to meet him for dinners and activities, i got tired. i still cared about him and i couldn’t move on… i feel bad for going on dates with guys. i told myself, the focus is on me. who gives 2 sh*t about you not wanting to go home and all? i started the no contact rule and it was all good until he started flaming me with accusations that i lied to him about stuffs and all. in short, it was a mistake for giving the last shot.
he told his wife he is unhappy with the marriage and she dug from him that he is seeing someone else. she moved out the very next day with the daughter. we spent alot of time together after that though he used work as an excuse to shun the question of ‘so will we be together?’ he kept telling me his wife would probably leave him so i thought maybe we could be together. it wasn’t until 2 weeks later that i realize things may not be what i thought they would be. he told me he is not happy and that he misses his daughter. i was so upset when i heard that because i, too, was unhappy, except that i didn’t voice things out. so i said maybe we should end things and he agreed. he told me he went to see his daughter the previous day and took her to his parents’ place and had a talk with his dad, who pointed to him that he has a responsibility to his daugher’s happiness.
i can’t describe in words how betrayed i felt. all along, he never wanted to be responsible for me though he kept saying so. i have done alot for him, for us. he kept saying the issue is his daughter but honestly, we meet everyday and he doesn’t go home even when we don’t meet. the only time he sees her is when she wakes him up in the morning and on weekends. all the other time else is spent with me. he used his daughter as a reason but when we split, he spent day in day out drinking with his friends. since we have a rented place, he sleeps over there without going home.
if that is not worse enough, every time when we were not together, he would drunk dial me and threathen to sleep with another girl to break my heart. it was anger most of the time but there was one incident, it happened. i even heard her moaning at the background and i was so traumatized by it because it happened in our rented place, our bed. the worst thing is, i asked him to come back to me after that incident because i felt partially responsible for it. this act is really beyond my boundaries but i could accept it and it has basically rendered me as someone without any boundaries.
i love this terrible and selfish man in the same capacity as how much i hate him but the love doesn’t neutralize the hate. i hate myself for still thinking if he really did love me (because it all points that he loves himself the most, followed by his daughter) and for wondering how are things for him and his wife now.
i hope to unhook myself from the picture of this dysfunctional relationship… soon.
I am trying to understand how people fall for married people? This is not a judgement – I am truly trying to understand. Even though I fall for AC’s/EUM’s I have always veered extremely from MM or even men that have GF’s. If they’ll do it to to their partners – why woundn’t they do it to you?
Please don’t ever expect any man or woman to chose you over their children – it’s not fair. There is no competition – we are the adults. I do see his inconsistency tho – if he had chosen his daughter to begin with – he would have NEVER had the affair with you, whether he loves his wife or not.
I think we forget that love and commitment are different. I can love someone and chose not to commit and vice versa. I thought that was what marriage is about – that at times I may not “like” my partner that much, etc., etc. but we have a commitment here – commit to being in when sometimes I don’t feel like it, or I am angry at you, etc. etc. But invariably my emotions past me by and I am still in love with my partner – if not, do the responsible thing and get out BEFORE you start something with someone else – that is a person of integrity!! This guy has none – is that what you really want?
I think one of the hardest things I have had to face when people have hurt me and continually hurt me – is looking at my part and how I have betrayed myself. Not just how they betrayed me – part of the illusions again – believe their words and not their actions. My AC said he was monogomous – but I forgot to ask him what that really meant to him instead of assuming it was the same definition as I had. He continued/continues to flirt with ALL women, including old GF’s, and has had at least 2 emotional affairs that I am aware of – that is NOT monogomy to me.
This guy does not know what he wants and he is playing sick, manipulative games with you. Don’t you want a man to yourself? I hope you find the strength to treat yourself better – you are in my thoughts and I am rooting for you.
The hardest thing I am working on accepting right now – is that my AC did NOT love me. Maybe in his mind he “thinks” he did, or “should” love me – truth is – he never did and never will. People who love me do not treat me the way he did – lies, deceit, secrets, cheating, not being there for me, etc., etc. the list goes on. They also admit IN THEIR ACTIONS when they do something wrong – as we are all human.
Good luck to you – I know it painful – but love yourself more!
Because we want to be the exception to the rule-I didn’t know that when I was involved with my MM-i only learned that later from reading nat’s insight on it Also I wanted valadation from him that I was better than his wife and therefore he would choose her over me because I was truly the right one for him, that I could give him everything he wanted in a relationship. Also learned that from Nat too. Did I think that he would cheat on me also if we were to be together? At first I didn’t think so but as I got to know him better I learned that it was very possible because this man doesn’t have the capacity to love anyone woman enough to not cheat on her. Oh boy, I can’t beleive I just said that out loud! See that’s part of the illusion I had about him-I thought that my love would cause him to love me so much that he’d never cheat on me. Now I know that he can’t and won’t love me enough ever to not do that to me too. It’s heartbreaking to fall for a man that just isn’t capable of being in a truly commited relationship -commited in being faithful to his partner. And that’s the reality that I have GOT to accept. I can’t stand that it’s true because I don’t want it to be. But I can’t change him -he is who he is. I could show my love for him and it would never make a dent in how he is.
@ debra
Thanks so much for your thoughts. yep-it’s all one sided. Hard to beleive. But I am working on it. I no longer see or talk to him and am busy filling my life up with loving people. Doing more things for myself. Somedays are better than others but I am getting through and having more better days than bad ones! I am getting there.
@Dawn – Thanks for replying. Everything you said is what I have felt with single men that I was in relationship with. I think we are taught as women that we can “save” men with our love. I think men are taught that as well. My ex even told me that he would do better in his life because of the “right” woman. I just think we have more of a chance for happiness if they are single (of course – not if they are AC). And I learned very young that in order for me not to carry my crap from one relationship to the next I have to take time to grieve and learn about me inbetween. Wishing us all growth and self love!
@Aimee,
Your welcome. It sure is tiresome trying to get someone who doesn’t have the capacity to love or be in a fully commited relationship to do so. Thanks for your insight on love and commitment. ” I think we forget that love and commitment are different. I can love someone and chose not to commit and vice versa. I thought that was what marriage is about – that at times I may not “like” my partner that much, etc., etc. but we have a commitment here – commit to being in when sometimes I don’t feel like it, or I am angry at you, etc. etc. But invariably my emotions past me by and I am still in love with my partner – if not, do the responsible thing and get out BEFORE you start something with someone else – that is a person of integrity!! This guy has none – is that what you really want?”
My AC has his next victim all lined up. He tells me he is crazy about her, that she is “The One” and he is going to start a relationship with her in 2011. The reason for waiting is that he told in June that he intended to dump me in six months time. She said she’d wait for him. He wants me to keep having sex with him for the next 6 weeks. He is also seeing another woman twice a week and a third about once a month (all sexually). I agreed because I am obsessed/addicted and (evidently) have no self esteem. I just let him walk all over me because he is so charming. Has any woman ever sunk as low as me before? I keep having feelings of rage and want to get some kind of revenge. My plan is to write a long document about him and the appalling way he’s treated me, and present him with a bound copy on 31st Dec, copying it to all his Facebook friends, family and employer. That’s what I call “closure”.
From @WastedLove: “My plan is to write a long document about him and the appalling way he’s treated me, and present him with a bound copy on 31st Dec, copying it to all his Facebook friends, family and employer. That’s what I call “closure”.”
I know that is VERY tempting, but copying to Facebook, etc. is NOT the way to go! It’s tempting to do that to my ex, but neither of us has Facebook. But believe me, DON’T do that. Making anonymous comments on here where you don’t use the person’s name is a lot more “healing” than posting to Facebook.
PS forgot to say, have contacted the woman he has lined-up and told her everything. She is involved with someone else and wants nothing to do with him. She even sent me all their email correspondence, so I now have black and white proof that he has lied to me (and her). So I know for a fact that when he dumps me 31/12, he actually HASN’T got another woman to go to. Heheheheheheh.
WastedLove – I believe in being honest so what I say next isn’t to hurt you but to hopefully give you a different perspective. While this guy clearly is a dipstick, it is you degrading you not him. How you can list someone’s sexual encounters with various others and not feel the cold slap of reality is near unbelievable. If someone told me that I was a sexual gap filler until they moved onto someone else they want, I’d be deeply insulted. You are further degrading yourself by getting in touch with these other women and trying to exact revenge. What are you having revenge on? You’re not in a relationship! Even if he has not been fully upfront with you he’s been enough for you to have enough knowledge to make you back away. You are using horniness to drive your actions and again, that’s not him that’s you. Your vagina is not something capable of making decisions. It’s not your vagina that’s weak – it’s your mentality.
I say this to you because it pains me to see you disrespect yourself. Yeah he’s a loser but that doesn’t explain why YOU are doing this to yourself. You’re in total denial and focused on him and taking revenge – even if you did, that wouldn’t change a thing other than give him a reason to think his treatment of you was warranted.
This is not a man hating site and it has plenty of male readers. This site is a journey in self reflection and honesty. I’m all for calling a spade a spade and explaining to you all about the inappropriate behaviour of assclowns and Unavailables but by the same token, You have to take responsibility for yourself. Stop making it about him and make it about you and your choices and think past a few minutes of sex. I wouldn’t waste your breath or energy with your dossier – it will be an act of spite that will be regarded as pathetic.
Wasted
Please do not wait until 31 December for him to dump you. Walk away now. Also, he can easily find another woman to go to anyway. He’s already been stringing two along, a third, fourth, fifth will be easy enough to find. There’s not shortage of women with low self esteem who will eat up this nonsense.
And do not put the dossier out there. That could EASILY find it’s way back to your friends/family/colleagues and it WILL make YOU look like the crazy one.
Natalie I am hurting enough already, feeling stupid enough already. Berating me isn’t going to help me heal or escape from him it’s just making me feel even worse when you point out how stupid I am being. Can’t you help me instead please?
Wasted love – I feel your pain, as does everyone who visits this site. That some relationships are harder than others to let go of or get over is unmistakable, and it sounds like you are caught in a very painful one now. I can only wish you the best and hope that you can find a way out of it. Please do not send the dossier. I say this from experience. It may seem like the thing to do now but please believe that it will cause more harm that good, potentially alot more. The best revenge you can have on this man is to walk away and go no contact. Cut him out of your life. You are not addicted or obsessed, you are needing something from him that you really should be giving yourself – validation, love, respect. You are clearly not going to get it from him but you can find it in yourself. If you send the dossier, it will be that much harder for you to feel good about yourself, and that should be your only goal here. You cannot hurt this person, he doesn’t care enough about you for that to happen. The other woman means nothing, to you or to him.
I know this feels like the only thing in your world that matters right now. I have been there, made bad choices in terms of how to deal with him and the end of the relationship and paid a very heavy price for it. In the end, all it cost me was my own self-respect and self- esteem and I had too little of that to begin with. All I can say is that if you go no contact and get away, you will start to see things more clearly, stop seeing him as anything you want and start to care about yourself again. 5 months ago, I was where you are now. I promise you it gets so much better, once you begin to care for yourself. I now no longer need or care for my AC and have redirected all my energy into liking and caring for myself and my world is calmer, happier and a more loving place for it.
Keep visiting this site. Keep reading the posts and venting your anger and pain here. It is safe here, provided we all agree to play by Natalie’s rules. Just hold on, read about going no contact and don’t do anything until you can do so calmly. Promise yourself not to take any action until you have thought about it for 48 hours and it still seems like a good idea. Then, stop and think about it again.
Please take care of you.
Thank you so much Debra, I feel the love coming from you to me, made tears well up in my eyes. You say “You are clearly not going to get it from him but you can find it in yourself. ” but HOW do I find it? It’s hard to see how I can go NC when I feel utterly desperate to see him. He has asked to see me tonight (for a brief sex session) and I said yes, because I want to sniff him and feel him in my arms. I have the next 8 hours to try to find the strength to cancel. I’ve read literally for hours and hours on this site. How will I know I am ready for NC? I wish I had somewhere to go, hundreds of miles away, for a few weeks, to go NC from a distance. He lives just up the road. Thank you again.
WastedLove, you want my help, you got it and then accuse me of berating you! I am trying to help you but you need to help yourself. You have a whole site here with over 1000 articles of help! I said what I said because you wrote six comments describing what is a clearly destructive situation which within these comments you were even laughing at the prospect of him discovering that the next shag isn’t around. WastedLove, I receive hundreds of comments a week, and can’t keep up with the stream of the coming through but I reached out to your comment because I am genuinely concerned after reading yours. It is unfair of you to accuse me of berating you when you are not willing to consider your part in things. You want me to reply to you and say he’s an asshole, you’re a victim etc etc and you’re accusing me of berating you because I’m not telling you what you want to hear. He is an asshole but you’re not a victim. If you want this situation to change, you have to be prepared to help yourself. I can point you in the right direction, I can provide a site full of information and some brilliant women who have experienced their own hurts, but at the end of the day, it will still come back to you.
I am not endeavoring to make you look stupid. I am trying to show you how destructive you are being by letting the quest for validation and having sex take precendence over your self-respect. If you feel worse, use it to take action. In the meantime, when you are ready to consider what you can do, read about no contact and the posts in the archives including these below.
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/using-sexual-atraction-as-judge-of-character-other-sexual-pitfalls/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/getting-to-grips-with-sexual-values-avoiding-sexual-insanity-rewarding-and-gratitude-more/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/getting-to-grips-with-sexual-values-stop-trying-to-revolutionise-the-wheel-chasing-the-feeling-more/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/more-on-sexual-values-questions-to-ask-yourself-before-embarking-on-sex/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/how-to-spot-an-assclown/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/100-tips-thoughts-for-better-self-esteem-because-if-you-dont-like-love-you-youll-choose-people-that-reflect-this/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/why-doesnt-my-emotionally-unavailable-guyassclown-see-a-committed-relationship-with-me/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/i-cant-believe-they-dont-want-me-syndrome/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/make-me-official-the-obsession-with-titles-in-relationships/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/do-you-want-to-be-with-an-emotionally-available-person-be-emotionally-available-yourself/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/are-you-a-responsibility-dodger-or-a-but-girl-caught-in-your-own-relationship-insanity/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/the-fallback-girl-is-mr-unavailables-disgruntled-customer/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/is-he-different-with-her-why-did-he-choose-her-instead-of-me-when-youre-not-the-one-or-they-move-on-to-a-fresh-victim/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/coping-with-feeling-rejected-by-mr-unavailables-assclowns-part-one/
OK Natalie. Your comments DID hurt me but I have to accept you are a propoent of tough love and you’ve seen hundreds like me and must be feeling sometimes that you are banging your head against a brick wall — why can’t these women SEE how they are degrading themselves? Well Natalie I really wish I knew. I have been a radical feminist all my life (I am in my 50s) until this man came along then suddenly I lost myself, I degrade myself, it has blown apart everything I believed in, my self esteem, my self-worth, my self-respect and yet here I am agreeing to see him again tonight and intending to see him as much as I can till he dumps me on 31 Dec. I wish Nat you could swoop in like Superwoman, kidnap me and lock me up till I see sense. I admit I am stupid, idiotic, weak, yes I admit all those things but HOW can I stop? HOW can I force myself to go NC? I KNOW it’s the right thing to do, I just have to somehow find the strength.
This site helps by firing me up a bit, so thank you for that!
Thanks too to GRACE, FEARLESSS oh my goodness so many people have responded, I had better go and read them ALL and very CAREFULLY and maybe SPEAK YOUR WORDS OUT LOUD to myself.
I dearly wish there was some kind of Rescue Hitsquad where you ladies would turn up on my doorstep and kidnap me for my own good, take me to a spa where I could have saunas and massages and healing and aromatherapy, five hundred miles away, and give me life-affirming books. I honestly feel too weak to do this on my own, but I will try with the help of all these amazingly wonderful loving and caring messages.
THANK YOU ALL FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART!!!
@WastedLove
“I admit I am stupid, idiotic, weak, yes I admit all those things but HOW can I stop? ” Begin my not calling yourself these things – they are not WHO you are, they are behaviors that you DO. Simply STOP the behaviors – ok – how’d you like that comment? I know, first hand, that it is not simple or easy to stop these behaviors – but you have to start somewhere. Start NOW. I know somewhere inside of you that you think you can’t go w/o seeing him tonight, that you have to have “one more night/sex”, etc with him, but trust me, once it is over you will feel worse. How about believing and knowing that if you decline and go NC you gain a little bit more self-respect, self-love and your POWER! Grab your power back honey!! Your life depends on it!! AND YOU ARE WORTH IT – he on the other hand IS NOT!
I grew up with a feminist mom, and I have been one as well – it has been a defense for a long time. I am woman hear me roar – ok – I am woman which also means I am vulnerable, soft, loving, kind, patient, etc. Which means it is time for me to find a man who loves, respects those qualities that are me, not some man-boy who gets off, sadistically might I add, in exploiting them causing me to become the “bitch” they want me to become so they get off scott free from their “behaviors’!! Who is going to protect you if you don’t? And I am not saying go out and be the tough, independent women we claim we are when in feminist role.
Now – I want you to sit down and start a list as to why you do not want him back. His behaviors, lack of respect, YOUR VALUES he has violated, his lying, cheating. READ IT everytime you start to miss him. I remember my old AC from 22 years ago amped up his calling when I backed off and began no contact – I literally would answer the phone and take my left hand and force my right hand to hang up the phone on him. Then he would call back and I would just disconnect the phone from the wall. DO IT! Today, with technology, I just blocked my current ex’s number.
Huge apologies Aimee, I am not yet familiar with the way these pages are laid out so I didn’t see your message until I decided today to re-read this entire thread all over again. Just to say, thank you so much for your thoughts, time and effort in writing. I weakened and saw him that night, enjoyed it a lot. Would be easier to go NC if I felt empty and bad afterwards, but I don’t. Your idea of making a list is a great one and I will do that today (shall I post it on here?) I will also remind myself it’s not that I am stupid just that I’ve done stpuid things. lots of love xxxx
Wastedlove,
The help is there in Nat’s comment if you want to see it. He does not need you to write him up a dossier – he already knows how he is behaving and so do the other women (and besides it is not your job to explain it all to any of them!); he knows better than you do what he has bee up to! As for sending it around on FB etc.. you may find that action will backfire on you, very badly – you will live to regret it (the advice to drop the idea, is very, very good advice. Take it.)
You do need to focus on yourself and not on him, his other women or on getting revenge – this is all counter-productive. You do need to see how your own decisions and actions have encouraged and validated his actions and have perpetuated this terrible situation for you – once you see your own part in it you will see more clearly. Your head is in a fog right now; you are focused on all the wrong things. First thing you need to do is save yourself.
Ask yourself: what is the aim, the objective here FOR YOU? It should be simply to get the hell out and away from this man and this situation and re-claim your sense of self-respect, but the actions you are taking are counter-produtive to this and are actually sabotaging this aim.
You need to focus on this : ‘what can I now do for myself to get out of this situation with this man, get my feet back in reality and re-gain my own self-respect?
Nat’s advice is good adcive – you will not accomplish any of that by continuing to feed off the drama of being involved with him or by continuing to dig a deeper hole for yourself by feeing into it all with dossiers and revenge and facebooking his other ‘shags’ etc.
Put your spade down and get the hell out of there.
Fearless, I have been rading your responses for a while and you give really good advice and I am just wondering if you take any of Natalie’s good advice to heart and apply it to your situation?
I realize that you are dealing with this man for about 9 years or so, are you totally NC with this man at this point? I don’t want to cause any bad feelings, just hoping you are on a path of change and healing.
I feel for you, I somewhat did what you did for about 3 years, but isn’t it time to do for yourself what you preach?
Astelle,
Yes, I am in NC with my EUM. I am practising my own advice – or at least I am doing what everyone else here is doing: I am fighting for myself now. I may stumble along the way – as we all do – that is one reason we come to Nat’s site.
I have been with ‘my guy’ for nearly ten years – in a relationship with him, albeit not the most healthy of relationships for me; it was not the worst of relationships either but it was plainly not leading to marriage or commitment from him. However, point is, he was not some flash in the pan bloke who was dropping round for a shag whenever he felt like it for a few months (had one of those years ago and I can tell the difference).. nor was it youthful infatuation for me, nor was he someone I chased for dates for a few months… he is not a bigheaded, god’s gift, shag-around type – not even nearly in that bracket.. etc.. etc.. He is a guy who is definitely EU but he is not high on the scale of outright AC and narcissistic behaviours that I have read about, but I know him when I see him – and I do not see him as a total narc or AC. He is an ‘active fearful avoidant’ commitment phobe – a text book case – well bad enough – and not going to change!
I can use this language now; but I only came to know of it and uunderstand it after finding Nat’s blog in July and spending days and days reading more about EU, commitment phobias, attachment styles and narcissism – I bought four books on the subject of EU! This made me go NC and take action to get out of the relationship – so far I have done that – I have held firm and I am working on myself and my resolve and my self-esteem every day to remain firm. What more do you think I should be doing, Astelle?)
The point I am trying to make is that while we are all struggling with ‘unsatisfactory men or relationships’ all of our situations are not straight forward carbon copies of eachother; they may have similarities, but they are all also very different- and EU/AC/Narcissism is not an all or nothing characterisation – these behaviours and attitudes lie on a spectrum – all of us probably have some of them – our ‘problem guys’ are not ‘clones’ of eachother and our own personal realtionships with them are not identical in nature or context, by any means. We each have our own struggle and sometimes we see the way through for others more clearly than we do for ourselves, which is why ‘objective’ comment can be enlightening.
So, to clarify my own position – I have not seen my EUM since July. I have not been in the same room as him, let alone had sex with him. I could have seen him, easily, if I had wanted to – he would see me at the drop of a hat if I motioned my willingness, but I have cut off his ‘way in’ and my own ‘way in’ to him. I have remained NC since July – excepting two very minor wobbles by mobile phone – texting.
I would ask you not to under-estimate the effort it has taken me to do that – to cut us off from eachother – it’s been a long time! – to take control of the communications between us – but I have done it and I am doing it still today – nearly 4 months later and I am still on the case; still following the advice and doing my damndest to follow my own. I am getting there.
Yes, I had a wobble last week at a very low point when he tried to tempt me with something he knows I love to do… a weekend in London. I turned him down and I have maintained my position of no further communication since those two or three texts that went between us last week. At that point Natalie also reminded me to stay firm, which helped me a lot; and to ‘practice what I preach’ and that is what I did. I was also given some ‘no holds barred advice’ from others here, which I very much appreciated. I think I am doing quite well, so far. Others, like yourself, may not agree, but that is up to them. Only I can really know just how far I have come and how hard it has been for me and how hard it has been on me.
I make no claim to be invincible, Astelle, I am not the oracle; I make my own mistakes and I suffer accordingly, but I have heard and taken advice from others – God knows it is that advice that has been my sole support these past months – and I take the view that if I have a comment, it may also help others. They are free to ignore me.
However, since you have pointed out what you have, I will think twice before I offer my thoughts/advice. I do not intend to patronise anyone – and I am sorry if I have come across as doing that – I am, as you say, in no position to take the moral highgound here – or any high-ground for that matter – and I do not see myself in any position of ‘authority’ at all. I do though have quite a lot of general life experience, which may be helpful to some young readers, maybe not to others.
I wish you well, as I do everyone here who is struggling to cut ties with a man they have loved, wisely or otherwise.
correction – last line is meant to read: UNwisely, or otherwise.
Thanks. F
@Fearless
I think you are doing good girl! I know it is always easier for me to see what is going on for others than for myself as I am more objective (not in the middle of their life/feelings). So I tend to be able to give good advice to others, and at times not take my own advice. I think we are all capable of that.
Also I have learned, for myself, that I have to articulate things in writing, advice, etc before I take action. For me it’s the “preaction”. Like going from my head (advice/words) to my heart (doing the words/advice in action).
You have helped me tremendously, as many have on this site, I am proud of you for not going to London as I know how hard and tempting it can be to run back to “our fantasy”.
What I am finding for me right now is: With my AC I would take 2 steps forward 8 back. Now I am taking 2 forward 1 back, 5 forward 3 back. So doing the math – I am making progress albeit slower than I want!!!! I just want to be over it and not feel the feelings, one of the reasons I would go back when he started the contact again – so I could “manage” my feeling bad, but going back only made me feel worse. Also, this time, as much as it hurts like hell and is messing with my ego – he now has an old FBG he’s with – this has helped. As I am afraid to admit that had he not gotten with her and continued to contact me I think I would be very tempted to go back especially through these holidays. I have been very sad and depressed – but I just keep trying to “show up” in my life as best as possible. 74 days NC!
Lots of love!!! Aimee
Thanks, Aimee. It is hard. You too have been a source of support for me. You are doing great and I have a good feeling for you that you will get through the worst very soon and find your own happiness, free of EU/AC nonsense. I know what you mean about the maths!! I think so long as we keep moving on the objective, not let any set-back derail us and most of all do not resort to the ‘give up and stand still’ return to status quo scenario, then sooner or later the maths will be fully in our favour and we will experience all of the gains.
The biggest – the most unambiguous, constant – gain I see in unhooking myself is that I have actually stopped fighting FOR the relationship, and not only in my actions but in my head. I am no longer mentally fretting about how to make it work, how to fix it – I have stopped trying – and this, I think, in my situation, is almost all that was needed to put a stop to it (but I have known that for a long time: that it was my efforts that were really driving the relationship – not his. He did many little things to try to please me, but in the big picture, never ever made any effort to make or mend or cement the relationship. He didn’t want to be with me; that’s the bottom line).
I always knew really that if I gave up and stopped caring, it would all run out of fuel very quickly, which is why, I think, I clung to caring about it – the more I invested the more I clung and the more determined I was not to ‘leave with nothing’. It’s hard to just abandon ship when you have spent years struggling to drive it through the high seas! The more you fight for something the less you want to admit defeat and let it go. So, admitting defeat was my first and major hurdle.
One of the instant benefits that I feel is that I don’t need to care what he thinks anymore – phew!! That’s a relief worth all the effort, let me tell you! That was a lot of caring for a lot of fuck all!
Like you Aimee I do though often feel very sad and depressed about it all; mostly for what a real disappointment he has been to me. He is actually just a spineless little shit in a grown man’s clothing! Nothing at all like the man I thought I saw when I met him and desperately wanted him to be, so that I did not need to be wrong!! But I can do nothing about the past; I can only control what happens next. And I will. Natalie’s blogs, those that speak most to me in my position, have brought everything into perspective for me. I see with much more clarity now what my problem is/was, what a sad chancer he actually is, and it’s like a door opening that I never saw was there before and, really, all I have to do is let go – really let go – no kid on! – of what is now standing behind me and walk through that door.
My next job is to start focusing on filling up my life, finally, with all of those things I know I want to do. I applied for a new job last week – there’s a start!
Good luck Aimee – you know where the door is! Love to you too x
Huge apologies, I am not yet familiar with the way these pages are laid out so I didn’t see your message until I decided today to re-read this entire thread all over again.
You ask me to ask myself: “what can I now do for myself to get out of this situation with this man, get my feet back in reality and re-gain my own self-respect?”
I am working on it, pls see foot of this thread. I am fully in reality. Not with the self-respect yet. Not out yet.
My 2 cents to Wasted Love
A year and change ago I thought this was a harsh, man hating site. I was considering buying a dating program with money I didn’t have that suggested that if you only focused on your man the RIGHT way, THEN you could be successful in relationships, if only you weren’t too needy, emotional etc. and this (probably assclown himself) could show you how. I came here instead (thank the Universe) and despite the fact that Nat “told me off” lol in a post and the other posters inadvertently shamed me (in my perspective at the time) for having low self esteem because I revealed that I was unbelievably obsessed for 3 months over a guy I went out with only twice and that is just the tip of the iceberg re: my whole damn romantic life which includes an absent father/psycho mother, and a 10 year marriage to an emotionally abusive narcissist! I heard the message loud and clear. FOCUS ON YOU!!!! NOT. THEM. Unfortunately I have been one of those people who takes her reality in small doses and only gives herself gradual pieces of the puzzle at a time, But, it accumulates. meditate, do yoga, learn to play an instrument, masturbate like crazy, be celibate for a while, read this blog religiously. Whatever you can do . Maybe see a therapist if you can afford.
Now I have the ability to see that the most recent and seemingly BEST dating experience and closest match to my newly acquired values I have ever had is STILL not up to par/ the guy is freshly separated, does not share the same sexual values, bolted the sec the interest level reciprocated in kind, played the friend card and the one that threw me, would only converse/and “break-up” through email, (That one was still a blinder cuz I told myself Oh, look how communicative and responsive he is being (not typical AC traits) so what if its through email? ) WRONG, he was emailing 10 times a day and trying to rush me through the “relationship ” to get sex. but guess what I said hell to the no, feel great about myself and my choice to go NC after he went cold twice (I had to suck it and see lol) and still feel fine. Probably cuz I managed to keep the knickers ON. For me , having been where you are , and most of us around that spectrum on this site, this is progress, to a degree, but its true, it starts with YOU and your Willingness. Take responsibility. ACT. There is no need to seek revenge as the only one it will hurt is you . (fun to think about for a second tho isnt it? ;P) This is a tremendous public service being offered . I never ever, (ok maybe by the age of 80) would have learned these things on my own and Natalie doesn’t charge a dime. Mad respect YO. We are rooting for you , and each other, and ourselves.
Best Wishes,
Dlite
Fearlesss,
Just to say that I have been reading your posts for a while now and I have always found what you have said helpful. I have been NC with my ex EUM for a year at the end of this month – and it has been REALLY difficult, although when he made an effort to get in touch with me three weeks ago after seven months of silence, knocking on my door (I ignored him) sending me texts telling me he loved me and that we have something “something special” and begging me to talk to him I also ignored them. I was with this guy for three years, which I felt was a long time to be caught in such a sprial of emotional confusion and pain, so I c an only imagine how difficult it has been for you after being with someone for ten years . You have courage Fearless, you have given us all the benefit of what you are learning as a consquence of your own struggles and I do hope that you will continue to do so on this site. Congratulations also on how far you have come in your journey.
Hugs. and respect girlfriend.
I am glad that Fearless made this comment because I am afraid to.
“while we are all struggling with ‘unsatisfactory men or relationships’ all of our situations are not straight forward carbon copies of eachother… We each have our own struggle.”
I realise when I write about “my” man people imagine him as this boastful, swaggering type but he isn’t. He has OCPD and to a lesser extent NPD. He is softly-spoken, polite, gentlemanly and very well-liked; he comes across as decent, honest, moral. And yet, he has multiple girlfriends and tells me he is leaving me at the end of the year for another woman who he thinks is his “perfect soul mate” (he thought that of me once). He’s not the stereotypical “abuser” or AC. He’s more like the Charming, Smiling Assassin. He appears meek yet his neediness to have his ego constantly built up by me and the others turns him into an emotional vampire — his entire conversation consists of himself, his hobbies, his needs, his problems. It’s quite exhausting to be with him.
After 2.5 years, I feel that I have taken some steps towards NC by refusing, as I did on October 9th, to spend any time with him other than purely having sex. I won’t talk to him about non-sex-related matters and won’t give him my companionship or support or listening ear. This is not what he wants; he misses my nonsexual companionship deeply (he has asked me to dinner on Thursday and to stay overnight and spend Friday morning with him).
But I must stop thinking about HIM and focus on ME. I don’t know how I became so weak and weepy and so addicted to his pheromones. Menopause? Hormones? It doesn’t matter, I just HAVE to get out of this. I have three options, as I see it
(1) dump him NOW. Email him and cancel tonight’s sex-meet and add, “never contact me again”. Then go NC. This feels like a really, REALLY difficult thing to do and I think I will sob myself stupid all day, all week, for goodness knows how long.
(2) shag him till Dec 31st, then go NC. Then just enjoy sex as much as I can, continue not to see him socially. (The woman he still believes he is leaving me for does not want him, and intends to tell him so as soon as he contacts her). This feels much more do-able than NC from today. I will have five weeks to get used to the idea, maybe line up another F-B to divert my longing away from him, gives me a chance to “say goodbye” (secretly, in my own way) to the sex and to his body. The biggest problem is that sex with him is excellent and addictive because he plays the role of Perfect, Selfless Lover like a consummate actor, and so it’s amazing being on the receiving end of it. I could have six more sessions, count them down, knowing they are my final times.
(3) Keep seeing him indefinitely until I somehow come to my senses “naturally” and feel it’s easy not to see him.
I don’t think there are any other options.
@WastedLove
I am confused honey!!
“shag him till Dec 31st, then go NC. Then just enjoy sex as much as I can, continue not to see him socially. (The woman he still believes he is leaving me for does not want him, and intends to tell him so as soon as he contacts her). This feels much more do-able than NC from today”
This is more do-able than learning to love yourself??? WTF Get out of this twisted thinking (I know it cause I do it!!). FIGHT FOR YOU!!! Sexually please yourself, sob all you need to, talk to us, write, journal, take a hot bath, sob some more BUT WHATEVER YOU DO, PLEASE DON’T DO IT WITH HIM!!
I also encourage you to not even email him, contact him or show up. He does not deserve this “courtesy” and it only keeps you “hooked”!!! Love to you dear – you are in my thoughts and prayers! Aimee
THANK to Dlite for her comments. Also, Lucy1, your words…
“a spiral of emotional confusion and pain”
.. describe absolutely accurately what I have been through with this man. Perfectly worded, Lucy. Spot-on, accurate description.
I have been working my way through the list of links Natalie sent — THANKS — and just wanted to report that they are really helping me to get some kind of understanding of how I ended up wasting 2.5 years of my precious life on this man. Sometimes when I read Natalie’s writings I think, OMG, She must KNOW him!
My AC said (a) I was his perfect woman but the timing was all wrong because he’d just got out of a 22-year relationship and needed to get over her and clear his head and have some space. (b) He was also hurt and damaged by her, especially her stifling, controlling, pathological possessiveness. (c) She never gave him any love, praise, support or encouragement, and none of his friends or family do either, he’s got all these problems, and nobody to share them with. He pouted, and his “little-boy-lost” expression melted my soft, womanly heart.
And so this lonely, desperate-to-be-loved, middle-aged, unattractive, menopausal spinster, who has too much empathy, compassion and willingness to “heal” his life got sucked in. Add to this mixture mindblowing sex, and that was it — hook, line and sinker!
Instead of seeing a) b) and c) above as Red Flags, they made me think (a) I am your perfect woman! You are my perfect man, so obviously I will stick around a few months till the timing IS right, (b) Poor man! I will be nothing like HER, you will have complete freedom and (c) Poor man! I will make up for all your disappointments, I will listen, I will help, support, encourage, praise, if ONLY you will be mine!
(a) led to him getting the relationship exclusively on HIS terms while I waited…. and waited for the timing to be “right” for him.
(b) led to my having to share him with other women to prove I was nothing like his ex.
(c) led to my being sucked dry by his vampire-like neediness, while getting absolutely nothing in return. He talks incessantly about his life and problems, yet has never been the least interested in me, my life or career.
In Natalie’s words, he is EUM to my Florence Nightingale.
@ WastedLove
GOOD GIRL!!! You’re getting it!!
Oh Lordy! Even MORE spot-on stuff from Natalie! You MUST have met him! Must have!
“He might make references to the future today but if you bring up the future next week, he’ll tell you off for being needy. Whatever role he feels like playing, you are expected to jump to his beat and play along.”
Yes, this is him. He will refer to me as his girlfriend when it suits him, but if I do the same he interrupts and points out that I am not his girlfriend!
” Mr Unavailable’s tend to have a stock of women on tap, or what some readers refer to as a Narcissistic Harem…. that he turns to get his ego massaged…. but by spreading himself thin he keeps his distance from everyone but always has a woman to ‘fall back’ on.”
I realised long ago that his reason for having two regular girlfriends ISN’T because he does not get enough sex but so that neither of us can “claim” him. This is why he told each of us about the other. I put up with it at first because I thought he’d dump me if I behaved like his “possessive ex”, because I thought he needed to do this to “heal” and because I truly believed that if I showed myself to be compliant, understanding, easy-going and non-jealous, he’d eventually choose me over her (I hoped the other woman was jealous, then I’d “win”). Two years later he’s still seeing both of us.
Wasted
At first I would not see that my AC/EUMs are the same as all the other AC/EUMs. I very much resisted putting them in that category thinking “everyone is an individual”, “every situation is unique”. I didn’t want to go NC; I thought I could manage it another way. However, I finally had to admit that I could tick most of the boxes in the AC/EUM checklist. In fact, if you can tick 25% of the boxes, you have got yourself an AC/EUM. And if one of those boxes is “has another woman”, extricate yourself immediately.
I get that men DO fall in love and leave their wives/girlfriends (Brad Pitt!) but it is (i) exceptional (ii) they do it quick and (iii) you’re not Angelina Jolie. They don’t string you both along for months or years.
@Grace – I agree, that whatever and whoever… one thing for sure is exactly the same for all of us: Get out of there. And NML’s advice on how to go about doing that and never finding oursleves in the same position again is universal.
Best to you
F
wastedlove,
I doubt very much his ex was overly “possessive’; she probably simply expected him to be faithful, to offer her care, trust and respect. I doubt vey much that she got anything like that from this man you are describing.
You should take what he says about his ex-wife’s “faults” with a very large pinch of salt – you are experiencing now what she had to put up with. Trying “not to be like her” is the same as trying not to ask him to treat you care and respect.
The whole scenario that you describe is mind-boggling (No, I am not trying to be mean and yes, I too have been a sucker for many a guy!). This guy has got you thinking that offering him a sex-only agenda is some kind of ‘punishment’ for him (?!) Why did you not lay down a ‘chat-only-no-sex’ agenda and see how often he came around for that?
He has you thinking that accepting his shagging around without the least complaint is an admirable quality!
It all sound a bit like that “Friends” episode where Joey is impressed with Pheobe’s “date” who has somehow managed to get Pheobe to beg to him for sex while telling him he does not need to call her again afterwards (Seen the one, anyone?)
You are plainly in the middle of a muddle and I hope you find your way through this; perhaps you should start by stopping ‘believing’ in this guy; for one: stop thinking that his “charms” are indicative of his values. Charming is something he does – not something he is. It’s a mask.
Someone here once posted on a link to youtube – to a doctor talking about narcissism – here is one of his ‘talks’ on the subject, you may like to have a look:
I found it interesting, but was relieved that I did not see my “ex” EUM as an example of what he is talking about (My EUM is definitely selfish and a bit self-involved, moreso than I am at least, but nowhere in the true narcissistic realm).
Wastedlove; you need to step back from this guy as soon as you possibly can, at least to give yourself some clear vision – you are in the middle of the fog he has created around you.
This works for me, from Nat:
Hold on tight to your self-respect. Choose you. Everytime.
@Fearless
Dang – your link is not there! Wanted to watch!
“Why did you not lay down a ‘chat-only-no-sex’ agenda and see how often he came around for that?” This did not work for me – he was still an AC – guess it was the friend card??!! hahaha!
@Grace – “if you can tick 25% of the boxes, you have got yourself an AC/EUM” Mine scored 64% – ouch!
Aimee I posted again, a link that does work – go to ‘next comments’ here or just go to youtube and type in Sam Vaknin – narcissism – you’ll find it. Fx
That link didn’t work – here’s another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKClN8rnj4o&feature=related
Bad day today!
I don’t even know what I was in this non-relationship. It wasn’t a relationship at all. I feel hurt that he still made a pass at me after three years. I feel like I’ve been intruded upon by his declaration of love and his “this will never end and I think we will see each other again.”
I feel sick to my stomach.
I read everything on here and I’m numb. I’m trying to see my role in this. I know in part I’m at fault for accepting a lunch date with him. I should have slapped his face when he kissed me. How dare he! (and then I melted – what an idiot!)
I get deeply affected by the good memories. The awesome places we went. I love traveling and I did it with him. But I want to go back to these places and I find myself getting upset after the good memories come. I don’t know what that’s about.
How do I get to indifference. I so want to be there. Then I would know I can go back to the places I loved visiting with him so much (to see more of it) without feeling huge loss of friendship. I really did have a friendship with this guy at the start.
I’ve identified that when we crossed the boundary and got really intimate – that’s when the problems started. For him because he’s married and for me because I became the OW. I really wish we never had done that.
I’m sad today.
@Fearless. Yes indeed unless we speak to these exes we are only hearing half the story. Sorry I didn’t make it clear that I wasn’t saying that is how I feel NOW I was just explaining that is how I got myself into this mess in the first place — by wanting to “heal all his wounds” etc.
You say “This guy has got you thinking that offering him a sex-only agenda is some kind of ‘punishment’ for him (?!) Why did you not lay down a ‘chat-only-no-sex’ agenda and see how often he came around for that?” The reason is because his NPD traits make all his chat about him ONLY and the one-sidedness makes me unhappy. However, I enjoy the sex tremendously, more than with anyone I’ve ever been with before, and far more than he does (he devotes himself entirely to my pleasure and does not come at all). When the rest of it got untenable that was the one thing I really didn’t want to lose. We both enjoy it and want to keep doing it. He ALSO wants the chat/social side but it’s ME that doesn’t. So, yes, he would keep coming round if it was chat not sex. At this very moment he is pressing me to come round for an evening, so he can cook me a meal and we can chat, and it’s me that’s telling him “No, let’s just meet for sex.” As you said yourself, AC men are not clones of each other. When I say “sex-only” each woman will get a mental picture of what happens, how it is conducted, but that is not necessarily the reality.
“He has you thinking that accepting his shagging around without the least complaint is an admirable quality!” That’s a complex sentence, needed a bit of untangling but I think I’ve got there in the end 🙂
Sorry I didn’t make it clear that he does not “shag around”. He hates casual sex. After 22 yrs with one woman (he says he was faithful and I’ve seen nothing to the contrary) he met me 2.5 years ago, then another woman six months later and has had ongoing, committed relationships with both of us. There is another who he was seeing about once every few weeks, again long term. Not saying he’s “right” to do this, just that I’m not sure that fits the definition of “shagging around”.
He’s met another woman who he has never had sex with who he intends to start dating in January, and has told me he will be 100% faithful to her because she is his dream woman. To this end, he has already stopped having sex with the other two and intends to stop having sex with me at the end of the year. He still sees one of them twice a week even though they no longer have sex (I am in touch with her so I know he’s telling the truth).
And yes, it’s a slap in the face to me that he’s preparing to be 100% faithful to this new woman when he told me he could/would not offer this to me! It’s hurtful that he sees her as his Ideal Partner and not me. However, he’s very far from being MY ideal partner because he is EUM, NPD, OCPD, and slyly manipulative. Not swaggering, not cocky, but subtly manipulative.
And my HOOK, the only reason I still have ANY contact is that I love the sex, absolutely love every last second of it like I’ve never enjoyed anything in my life before. And yes I KNOW I have to stop. I know. I’ve listened to Natalie’s video umpteen times, don’t let your vagina make decisions for you.
It’s just a question of going NC now, or going NC at the end of the year. There is only, what, 6 weeks difference. When you’ve stuck it out for 2.5 years, 6 weeks doesn’t seem very long. I know that sex with any other man is going to be SO DULL. In fact, I might remain celibate (seriously!) once he and I break up for good.
I’ve heard ALL Sam Vaknin’s videos and read his entire website. He’s a Narc himself, not a medical doctor, and his opinion on NPD is just one sufferer’s opinion, there are plenty of better-qualified people, he just puts himself about on the Net a lot, because he’s a Narc himself!
Wasted, he’s shagging around. Hope that clarifies it for you. The more you try to explain this guy’s behaviour the less I like him.
Am I the only one who suspects that if we go by all The Rules on here, walk out at the first sign of a Red Flag, have high standards and strict boundaries, we’ll never meet the right man? Or SOME of us will have to live our lives manless (not that that is any great tragedy) because there are so few men left after all the ACs have been weeded out that there aren’t enough to go round? Could we have a new page addressing this issue, please?
Today I had lunch with a guy I met on the Net. 52 is my upper limit. He is 57 but he seemed nice so I took a chance. He monopolised 80% of the conversation with anecdotes. I didn’t mind because they were interesting and amusing, I was learning about him, and I could just relax and be entertained. But his dates didn’t make sense and when challenged he admitted he was 62. By the end of the date I knew his life story and he hadn’t asked anything about me. Not one thing. Just before we parted he said it had been nice meeting me but I “talk too much”.
I came home and sobbed into a Kleenex and told myself I’d rather stay with Mr Charmer EUM than to date one more lying, insulting man. It has made me feel even more convinced that once I leave Mr Charmer EUM I will be a celibate spinster the rest of my days.
Wasted love,
Had to comment because you still seemed deep into it. At one point I think you object to the word shagging around and then list all the other women in his life. Do you see the delusion there?
Also if you wait till 31st what will it get you? NC today and NC then is the same. Infact NC then would be more painful. He says someone else is his dreamgirl but he still wants you, just for a second imagine I you were his wife and he said so would you take it? A marriage is a social commitment but a true relationship feels and behaves like mariage even if you are not married. Natalie would agree I think. So please remember the other person has to treat you like family, like a priority.
Read whatever you have written again and try to see the contradiction. One good thing is you came to this site. Keep on reading, you will see the light and also learn to love you.
@ learningtomoveon. No delusion. Not all EUMs or ACs are clones of each other. Not every derogatory label fits every man. My definition of ‘shagging around’ doesn’t fit yours: he hasn’t had sex with anyone new for two years, and for the last 5 months has had sex only with me…. and to me, that’s not SA.
But pedantically defining his other LT relationships is irrelevant. It doesn’t help me find a way to force myself to go NC while still feeling this addicted to him and, to make matters worse, he’s currently very keen to see me, has turned his charm and irresistability up three notches, and wants to return to us spending more non-sex time together.
(NB the woman he believes he is leaving me for doesn’t want him, so if I don’t end this, we could carry on indefinitely.)
I feel in utter turmoil and swing like a pendulum several times a day. One minute I am angrily hating his guts, being furious about the way I’ve let him manipulate me and wanting NC right away. I feel strong, positive, maybe even line up a date and tell myself, ‘Sod him! Plenty more fish’.
Then an hour later I’m at the other extreme: anguished sobbing punctuated by vowing aloud that I will never leave him and praying he will never leave me. Sometimes I feel so guilty at the hateful thoughts I’d had previously, I might drop him an affectionate email at work, which he always replies to with equal or greater affection, feeding the side of me that is obsessed with him even more.
I swing from one extreme to the other several times a day, and have calmer, less extreme ideas as well, like, ‘oh this isn’t so bad, better than being celibate, better than being alone, I’ll stay with him till someone else comes along.’
I know it’s ‘wrong’ to think this way, to be scared of being lover-less, but I am just being 100% honest about what goes through my mind every day, knowing I’ll be judged harshly, but refusing to hide my real self from y’all. If I am painfully honest, my obsession is, I think, 80% addiction to him (caused by pheromones, oxytocin, menopausal hormones, sex) and 20% assuaging my boredom and loneliness; getting attention and company; having my dull working day brightened up by affectionate emails from someone who calls me by a pet name, tells me how much he’s looking forward to seeing me and sends loads of xxxxx’s. It’s someone to get dressed up for; somewhere different to go (i.e. his place or out somewhere); it’s also a huge boost to my self-esteem that even though the world sees me as ugly, an attractive man finds me very sexually desirable AND, even though few women want my friendship and company, he does.
And before anyone yells ‘he’s only using you for sex’… it’s become ‘sex-only’ only recently and at my request because I am sick of his being EU while getting ALL his relationship needs from me. I toyed with NC but instead withdrew the ‘relationship’ side because that was so unequal and draining. I kept the sex because it is equal (well, he ‘gives’ more than he ‘takes’ but at least it’s within my power to make it 50-50). My immediate problem is that he is trying to lure me back into the nonsexual or ‘social’ side of the relationship by inviting me to spend an evening-overnight-morning with him this weeks and once a week, and I am sorely tempted, but know it’s a step backwards for me because, again, he’ll want to suck me dry of time, effort, emotion, empathy, sympathy, while giving in return his usual ‘few crumbs of meringue’ — i.e. terribly sweet but utterly insubstantial.
I hope I’ve explained more clearly this time that I have quite a lot of powerful ‘magnets’ that are sucking me and attaching me to this EUM/AC. I feel I will have a huge gap in my life if and when I go NC. I’m not feeling quite ready YET, need to boost my self-worth, self-confidence, self-esteem; assuage my loneliness and neediness and boredom; kill my sexual addiction to him. These things aren’t controlled by a simple switch, we can’t just flick them on and off at will.
I feel I’ve made a step in the right direction by being EU to him in return. I think that is a HUGE step considering that I’ve been in love with him and his “provider” and “supply” for so long. Not all of us are self-sufficient enough to go NC in one step, we need a few baby steps.
Please, sisters, don’t beat me up for that. I NEED YOU ON MY SIDE to get me to the next step, not telling me off or using accusatory or appalled or critical terminology which amounts to putting me down — I’m down enough, thanks, in the gutter sometimes, don’t kick me when you see me in there crying.
So, please don’t accuse me of stuff like being ‘delusional’. If I was, I’d be accepting an EU’s meringue crumbs (MANY women do – for a lifetime) not logged in to this site 6hrs every day reading every thread, not turning down dinner dates with him and planning going NC.