One of the biggest challenges that we face in our efforts to build meaningful, fulfilling and loving relationships is that–thanks to what might be some pretty painful experiences in our past–we might be unclear about how to recognise healthy relationships and interactions.
Becoming educated about healthy boundaries as well as having greater awareness of what I call code amber and red issues and behaviour are undoubtedly vital, but we humans do have a tendency to become hypervigilant for potential transgressions rather than empowered.
We quite simply don’t realise how guarded we’re being instead of boundaried.
We build walls to protect us from our fear of the past happening again (or to assuage our guilt about where we think we royally messed up either through actions or inherent inadequacy). Despite what might be our increased awareness and knowledge, we play Columbo. We also engage in catastrophic thinking and routinely doubt ourselves despite what might be overwhelming evidence that something isn’t right.
If we have increased awareness and knowledge of what constitutes unhealthy behaviour/situations, why do we doubt ourselves?
It’s because we tend to wonder if we’re being needy/dramatic/too sensitive/unreasonable/unfair/psychotic/jumping the gun/judgemental/over-emotional.
It’s like knowing the signs of fire but wondering whether you’re being melodramatic as the place is burning. So many of us have a fear of not only making a mistake but also just straight-up listening to ourselves.
The aim of life isn’t to only listen to ourselves when we’re guaranteed to be right! We have to tune in and be OK with sometimes getting it wrong–vulnerability. Life is on-the-job-training and by listening and learning, we gain personal security and hone our judgement skills. We become happier.
The irony is, of course, that if we’re criticising and doubting ourselves in response to something, it’s a code red alert. Something is very wrong. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the person/situation is shady, but it definitely means that we don’t have our back. We are the feeler of our feelings, thinker of our thoughts and keeper and advocate of our needs and desires. If we’re not listening, no one else can.
Our boundaries being crossed is undoubtedly an issue but how big it’s going to become comes down to whether we have an active response. Where we stand with an issue that we’ve responded to from a place of loving, caring, trusting and respecting ourselves (even when there’s a possibility that we haven’t got our assessment of things ‘perfectly right’), is very different to where we stand when we’ve either not responded at all or we have but from a place of busting up our boundaries.
Our feelings provide vital clues to our emotional state, our needs and what may or may not be going on around us.
Feelings aren’t facts, or more accurately put–the stories, judgements and assumptions that we pad around our feelings aren’t facts. The fact that we, for instance, feel anxious, doesn’t mean that the sky is about to fall down. We’re being signalled to either reassure ourselves or make a decision.
Identifying what tends to trigger a spiral of thoughts, feelings and subsequent actions allows us to make self-care driven choices. E.g. If we have a pattern of becoming anxious when the going is good or when we have free time, we can compassionately acknowledge these reasons. We learn that we’re still fearful of a past situation happening again and so protecting us from being “too happy” or that anxiety is our pastime– it’s a habit we use to fill time or to cover up other feelings and thoughts. Choosing to consciously respond from a different place allows us to move forward.
There’s a simple formula that works every time for recognising healthy people, situations and relationships:
Healthy connections regulate you, and unhealthy ones destabilise you.
In healthy interactions and relationships, there’s consistent calmness, steadiness and sense of self. This doesn’t mean that you won’t have occasions where you feel anxious, stressed, frustrated, etc (hello, you’re human), but you will be able to go ‘back to base’.
No matter how fabulous you are, persisting in hanging on to something or someone that isn’t compatible with your values will destabilise you.
A hell of a lot of people unwittingly (and sometimes consciously) believe that destabilisation is love. It’s not; there’s a fine line between excitement and fear.
If you’ve become less of who you are, the person, situation or thing is not in alignment with you.
It’s time to change the way in which you’re interacting with it/him/her. Or, you need to recognise that life is communicating something crucial to help you move closer to your values.
Working in a job that makes you feel as if you have to medicate in order to function? No longer seeing your friends, family or doing any of the things that matter to you? Run, Forrest, Run! Acknowledge the toll that whoever or whatever it is is taking on your life. It’s communicating vital information about who you really are and your needs. And then start working on getting out.
If by becoming involved with somebody, you can’t seem to eat, sleep or think straight, or it’s as if they’ve come along and decimated your life, you’ve been activated, triggered.
Something about that person, the dynamic, what you’re trying to ‘get’, what you’re avoiding, is a reflection of an unresolved wound. It’s unhealthy. You’re being invited to see something that you couldn’t see before. If you weren’t misunderstanding something about your worth in relation to your past, this situation wouldn’t exist. The relationship is here to wake you up. It’s forcing you to confront the pain, fear and guilt that you’ve been carrying around. In doing so, you will make space for the people, opportunities and things that are in harmony with who you really are and how you want to live.
Pain is not love.
Healthy connections regulate you, and unhealthy ones destabilise you. This is a simple yet powerful way of quickly gauging where you’re at. Listen and learn.
Your thoughts?
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Wondering if the ‘activation’or trigger is always a result of the person and your interaction. Ive been veey triggerred lately but i think its situational.. .got pregnant veey very early in a romantic relationship with a friend ive had for 15 yrs. We’re both trying our best to figure it out but it’s a lot on warp speed. And of course our emotional triggers are there. Feels really different than the relationship that got me reading your blog. Feels like something worth loving and working through even though we’re both flipped out emotionally from time to time. Thoughts?
Congratulations Kahani. I know it can feel pretty daunting. I think what helps is to get a gauge of whether it’s internal or external fear. It sounds like you have both have some natural apprehension due to your surprise impending arrival. Surely the situation is the trigger, as in, you have a massive impending and unplanned for life event that you’re both having to navigate in the early stages of your relationship. That’s going to bring up feelings about uncertainty, being out of control and all sorts and that will include bringing up old and unrelated things from the past that are associated with those same feelings: From personal experience, I can tell you that it will be easier to navigate this new world if despite being scared, you’re both on board with the decision and are on the same team. That wipes out a lot of the awful anxiety and that’s important because pregnancy is something that no matter how long you’re with somebody, it throws a curveball at you and prompts a myriad feelings and concerns. You’re bound to flip out – sometimes you’ll take it in turns and sometimes you’ll do it at the same time. Good luck!
This was honestly one of the hardest learned lessons for me. I betrayed myself a million times until I finally learned to start trusting my own feelings. It was one of the most eye opening and life changing lessons. I believe that day was my “awakening.”
It is just so unfortunate most of us will learn this lesson the hard way. My way was brutal. It’s such a shame we are conditioned by society to minimize our feelings and doubt our own intuitions.
Ooh yeah, I’ll share this too…
My favourite anecdote that always helped keep me in line when I started doubting myself (not a thing anymore God Bless – my intuition and I are true soulmates now):
“Good people make you feel good. Bad people make you feel bad.”
Was especially helpful when the Mental Gymnastics of rationalizatiom would start up again in my head and Id go into a frenzy over some situation or another. ESPECIALLY with the emotionally unavailable men. If someone is triggering your brain to go around in circles over and over, exhausting you, instead of overanalyizing the external world for “clues”, STOP and just listen to how you feel. Judge INWARDLY not outwardly. If you constantly *FEEL* horrible, this person is wrong for you. Simple as that. No overthinking or overanalyzing. Just allow your feelings to lead you.
“Healthy connections regulate you and unhealthy ones destabilise you. “
Wow! If only I’d heard this a very long time ago…no, wait…I most surely must have, but nevertheless had to go through my own life path complete with all its booby traps and landmines to get to a place where I would listen and understand it and heed it at long bloody last.
There is a lot of food for thought here. Three years ago I made a highly questionable decision to get involved with a very long-term friend who’s been trying to get in my pants for the past 35 years (since I wasn’t even quite of legal age for consent — he is 12 years older than me), and while compared to my wildly dysfunctional ex I finally divorced after 17 years of insanity, this guy came up (initially) smelling like a rose by comparison. Nevertheless, I spent most of that time feeling “destabilised”.
“Something about that person, the dynamic, what you’re trying to ‘get’, what you’re avoiding, is a reflection of an unresolved wound. It’s unhealthy. *You’re being invited to see something that you couldn’t see before.* If you weren’t misunderstanding something about your worth in relation to your past, this situation wouldn’t exist. The relationship is here to wake you up. “
I truly appreciate this self-compassionate perspective. I have spent the entire involvement referenced above feeling highly triggered in a way that strongly suggests a direct line to something in my past, but still can’t quite put my finger on exactly what it is. All I can say is that this man frequently made me feeling like I was a teenager arguing with my parents (I am 51 now and left home when I was 18 despite being woefully unprepared for an unsupervised life in the adult world), and I did realise that that could not possibly be a healthy dynamic in an intimate relationship. I just never quite got around to letting go, and am still struggling a bit in doing so now, two months after receiving 100% credible intel that he has been two-timing me for much of the past year, which he finally came clean about earlier this month. Live and learn!
Finally, I’m at a stage in life where I love and care for myself. My boundaries are sound and so are my core values. I consider myself a good person who projects an optimistic attitude.
I used to be shady, very obese, loud, sarcastic, two faced, a know it all, and basically an assclown about 95% of the time.
I also was popular, with a busy social life, tons of friends, a family who loved me and a reasonably active sex life that was filled with variety and fun.
Now I’m a decent, kinder, more honest person, with a normal sized body, and a more humble attitude. I feel far too polite and “morally upstanding’ to seek fake friendships or insincere one night stands with people who once only needed to be nice looking to qualify. The good old days may have been less than ideal from an evolved perspective, but I had a helluva lot more fun and laughed more back then.
Now I’m alone a lot, I have only a few friends left, my parents have passed away, my once beloved siblings have turned to liars and rats, and I haven’t gotten laid in ages. My cell home has spider webs, and all my e-mail and snail-mail consist mainly of ads and bills now.
I realize that whatever happens to me in life begins with me, and that blaming others for my lot in life is a fool’s game. I try not to whine or cling to others “in hopes they’ll save me,” I’m very kind to people, and I don’t even yell at my two kitties anymore when they do naughty stuff, like pee on whatever item of clothing I’ve left on the floor for more than 10 minutes.
Lately, I find myself longing for the life Bad Karen used to lead.
How can I resist spitting karma in the face and keep from reverting to that bitch who used to have such fun ?
No karma here. Karma has nothing to do with where “Evolved Karen” is at right now.
I have always been Evolved Used. BUT I have always been surrounded by narcissists and ACS. Always. And, oftentimes, those who were both narcissists AND ACs.
I have always felt alone.
It is hard to be a person of integrity. A solid person. A person who is whole. So it’s hard to find those who are of the same mold.
You don’t need ACs surrounding you, this is for sure!
You go back to your old life, you’ll be sucked into backstab-or-be-backstabbed. And, as long as you leave no fingerprints–as long as people *think* you are sweet, it’s all good.
In the AC world.
It’s a no-win game.
The solution? Be social with all. But close with none. You’ll be called a snob. Can you deal?
I think you are right in a way that people with integrity are hard to find. But that doesnt mean that they just dont exist. I think the idea of circles of trust is important – most people you meet cannot be in that innermost circle. I find that the people in my circle of trust are family and people I have known at least ten years> ten!!! Its not that the bar is that high. Its that so many people dont make it beyond a few months, or a year or two. But they are there. So I would say that certainly you wont find those people during those times where you were non discriminating and looking for fun. The people you go drinking with are usually not the people that will show up to sit with you when your parent dies, or send you an uplifting message before a difficult work event.
If we are talking about finding a partner — then yeah all bets are off. Its a totally different ball game. I think the physical stuff throws it all off. It creates a faux intimacy for men and women, and then you think you love someone – but if the circle of trust has lots of people drop out after some months or a year or two, and the real trust is apparent at a distance of ten years, then its clear that only serious relationships are even capable of being in the circle. We just believe ourselves in love much quicker in romantic relationships than the time we might say we love a friend. I’m rambling and not making any sense. Heres something to add to that — if youre getting older things will be different. No more wandering to the pub with ten people most of which you dont know. Those things happen less. Society is set up that you do that in your 20s and 30s. In your 40s you eat ryevita and have kids and buy carseats.
What a load of bullshit….
Sammy stop advising people based on your warped views on life!
“In your 40s you eat ryevita and have kids and buy carseats.” – According to who??? Just because that’s your experience doesn’t mean it applies to everyone else. I know people in their 40s who still join their friends at the pub, don’t have children and would turn their nose up at the thought of eating Ryvita.
I don’t know if you’re being sarcastic, attempting to be humorous or you’re actually being serious, but don’t troll people’s posts to tell them how they should live / think / feel / respond to life’s curve-balls. Don’t assume that people should be doing certain activities at certain ages either. Your particular brand of armchair psychology is for the birds! You do others a disservice by not listening and responding in a sympathetic and genuine fashion. STOP.
Many great philosophers support what you say, Sammy. To every thing there is a season. That doesn’t mean winter/spring/summer/fall. It means in our youth, we do youthful things. As we age, we drop some behaviors and adopt other behaviors. Some people have arrested development, and never mature, regardless of their chronological age. Some young people have wisdom beyond their years.
But so far as fun goes, from eight to eighty-eight, I think every one (those who are socially inclined) has a desire to get more fun into their lives.
So far has falling in love too easily, that should be restricted to youth, those under 21. But something has happened in our society, and now I think most folks are so starved for connection that they assume a connection is deep after superficial interaction. I mean, today, 12 and 13 year olds are killing each other over boy-girl stuff…40 year olds are killing each other over failed relationships….nobody can withstand a broken heart or rejection. We are all so fragile and so ready to snap. Something is amiss at the root of humanity.
When you level up and grow into a better version of yourself, I think it’s really common to feel isolated for a while, until you find new people who match your new and improved way of being. Sounds like you’ve shedded the folks who no longer fit in with your current values, and that’s a good thing!
At the same time, I can relate with you. I lost most of my friends as a result of cutting toxic people out of my life. I often feel very alone, and I do not have fun like I used to. However, I also feel like I am living in integrity with myself now, where I wasn’t before. I think of it like a pendulum effect. Eventually I know I will build new relationships with people who share my values. And I know that I have the capacity for fun, so I will figure out a way to bring that back into my life.
You don’t have to slip back into the person you used to be to find meaningful social connections and fun. The question is more, how can you build new, healthier relationships and integrate more fun and play into your life now? At least that is how I am approaching it for myself. Again, I think it’s really common to feel what you describe after you’ve leveled up and dropped the relationships and habits that don’t match you anymore. There is no “end” to the process of growth, so in this case, perhaps it is just the next step in your evolution finding like-minded folks to share your new and improved, awesome self and have fun with. Best of luck to you 🙂
My thoughts exactly and this is what I have done.
I feel your pain, Karen. But it is possible that you are remembering the past as only “good ” times and forgetting any negativity from that time. I am exactly where you are. It was hard to excise a couple of friendships from my life, because we DID have fun, but at what price?? Everything had to be HER way. When we went on a mini vacation together, it had to be where SHE wanted to go, and she even dictated that neither me nor the other person that went with us, could take or use our tablets or computers. Then proceeded to use her phone all weekend. On the drive home, she refused to use the a/c in her car (she drove and we split driving costs) and this was JULY. I got nauseous and dizzy, and could not eat, and my blood sugar dropped too low. (diabetic). I still miss her but know I made the right choice. The other friend flaked out on me 9 times out of 10, for minor things, as if her time was way more valuable than mine. I enjoyed her company, but the frustration was too high a price to pay.
As far as your cell phone not ringing enough, when it does at least it is a genuine person who truly cares for you calling, not a good time Charlie (or Charlene) who just wants to raise hell for one night. That is a nice feeling. Quality over quantity.
As for what you can do to not revert back to “old” Karen, here are some ideas that are just a little naughty, but not too much, and are also constructive things that will advance your knowledge and abilities.
Take a pole dancing class. There is no audience you are performing for, so it is not immoral, but still good exercise for you, keeping you limber and flexible. And you get bragging rights!! If pole dancing is too extreme, belly dancing is another idea.
Very sensual and good exercise.
Also, consider taking a self defense class. ALWAYS useful, and Krav Maga or Tae kwan do may save your life one day. And you will feel a little like a badass.
I take a dancing class, and I am learning a second language. I did meet a couple of people that became my friends, and I am keeping my brain and body toned. Good luck with it all. Good on you for refusing to be around negativity. Do NOT give up!!
This sounds to me like your ‘clean slate’ time. This is your ideal opportunity to get to build a life you love, not a life you’re playing at. You sound lovely! I have been through the same scenario – I feel I have led two completely different lives. I have worked hard on myself and changed a lot about what I think and believe, hence what I feel. I have offloaded so many situations and people who were bad for me and I now understand myself better and what I need to do to be happy and confident. Mindfullness has helped me enormously and is now in-built into my life. I am doing things I never thought I would ever do, and loving my new challenges. See this time as a healing period and feel all the feelings you need to feel, and work on everything. Read books and do yoga and do self-help stuff and buy flowers and cook healthy food and exercise and practice meditation and go places alone and look around you at all those miserable couples and think “I know something you don’t know.” Good luck! Xx
bahahaha that’s great. Practicing all of that after a recent devastating breakup (except here in Hawaii I can just grab flowers in nature all over the neighborhood instead of buying them.) Just a sensitive man here I know most of you are ladies.
Wonderful post. You’ve hit on all the things I know, but for some reason choose to not trust. Time for some reflection and application me thinks.
I think Natalie’s last three posts have been about focusing on making yourself the type of person you would like to be and maybe even meet. Like Karen, I sure had a helluva lot more fun two-timing and being an assclown. And, honestly, I miss that, and the laughter. What I don’t miss are the feelings of near-insanity when he would go back to his country to visit his wife, or being treated as a booty call, shooed along so he could make happy hour with his ‘work wife’ and other buddies. How I felt about myself. The awful secrecy. Etc.
I feel so much stronger mentally now after I had my ‘epiphany’ between Christmas and New Years. That text a few minutes after midnite, I ignored. And all since. When he texted, emailed and even tried to call on my birthday in mid-March with no reply; he got the hint and stopped. And I don’t know how I feel about that. It’s something that I begged him to do, even going as far as to delete an email address that I’d had for 15 years. Not that I’m going to break NC, no way.
Instead of obsessing, this is the time to re-train the brain, lose those pounds, train for the marathon (congrats, Nat!), get that certificate/license/degree. To get to the point where I can deal with my AC husband. To create boundaries without closing myself off from everything. To learn to live with the new reality.
Thank you so much for this article, Natalie. It came at just the right time and was really insightful.
Hi,
Question – how do we align the idea that healthy connections regulate you and unhealthy ones destabilize you with the idea that my attachment issues or “baggage” attract me to feel like unhealthy relationships are normal and I don’t necessarily feel destabilized in those situations because they are normalized in some sense….that they may be unhealthy in some ways but since this is our normal we can’t see is right away.
I’m now aware of attachment theory and recognizing the red flags of my last relationship but I’m concerned about making those mistakes again.
Baggage needs to be dealt with or else it clutters the mind and doesn’t give the other person a chance. No-one wants to be a therapist in a relationship for the person they think is relationship material. I believe that if you have baggage you shouldn’t date because not only are you destabilised by baggage you then can destabilise a person who has got themselves sorted out.
My yoga teacher just shared a quote, when you let it all settle down, it’s like the silt in the water settling, so you can see to the bottom through clear water.
But I know how tough it can be to see what’s your stuff and what’s their stuff, and what is really going on. I needed a therapist and CLOSE trusted friends to help me sort it.
This post has caused me to experience a wide range of feelings.
From Natalie- “…there is a fine line between excitement and fear.” Certainly there was almost constant apprehension. However that was only after the first rejection. Before that I was in lala land. Why wouldn’t I be there? Every day began with “good morning beautiful” and ended with wishes for sweet dreams. And of course we were going to start that new life by moving together. After all, his divorce was ‘imminent’. Maybe I read this here, (?) “it isn’t why did I fall for all this, it’s how could I have not”? There was so much excitement. The excitement won. It always won.
Also from Natalie- “if you’ve become less of who you are…”. Actually I felt more like myself, not less. It was me, enhanced and improved. I felt very congruent with myself: I was more vital, more interesting, more desirable.
So maybe he and I were in alignment and I messed it up?
But, as Natalie said, “Pain is not love.” And there was so much pain. There still is. Meadowlark referenced the feelings of insanity. I feel insane over and over again. Once he told me we had to stop the physical aspects but then three days later was texting me a DM song about lust. Or when he was ‘absolutely’ going to come over until ten minutes before ETA when he changed his mind. Then there was the time he insisted we could never go to bed together again but ended up there within ten minutes. He initiated contact but ultimately blamed me. (Feisty posted regarding that one and cleared it up for me.)
Back to apprehension and maybe even fear. Maybe he will change his mind and I’m pretty sure I cannot, would not, resist. A corresponding fear- maybe he never will.
“Healthy connections regulate you and unhealthy ones destabilise you.”
I hate every member of my immediate family.
They are the biggest source of anxiety and hurt I’ve ever known.
My narcissistic mother aside (who now has cancer so everyone is treating her like a saint), and my step-dad who only ever acknowledged my existence to bully, criticize or insult me, the only other person I should be able to rely on is my older brother – and he’s never really been there for me either.
He made a big deal of us getting together over Christmas and trying to connect seeing as our parents had moved back to the Caribbean. We went for lunch, had a good long talk about things and decided to make more effort to contact/see each other. I started seeing my nephews again after a long break due to their heinous mother (common af, talks like a fishwife, drinks too much and lives on govt handouts), and I even organised a trip to the theater (including their mother) as a treat in Feb and paid for it too. Had a great time and no drama. My brother even rang me after to say what a great time my twin nephews had.
Fast forward to Easter, I bought my nephews Easter eggs and text their mother to ask when would be good time to drop them off. I received a message a couple days later saying, “The boys have eggs coming out their ears, so thanks but no thanks.” I was upset for several days and couldn’t figure out why she was being so rude (most people just put the eggs away and ration them accordingly for their kids). By this point my brother had pretty much gone MIA since hearing about our Mum’s cancer diagnosis. I’d try to call or text and was informed, that he’s “not in a sociable mood” – so I backed off and gave him space. I decided to send him the babymama’s message and explained that I considered it rude and would prefer to liaise with him directly to see my nephews. To this day, still no word from him or the nasty babymama. My mum reckons something is going on with them and I’m being scapegoated for it, but this happened to me before which is why I didn’t see my nephews for so long, and I refuse to get drawn into their BS again, so I blocked both of them and decided that I won’t allow other people’s shit to poison what little sense of stability and peace I have left. The twins birthday has come and gone and I let the day pass – feeling guilty that I didn’t buy them anything or try to see them as we had previously planned. It hurts me not being able to hang out or talk to my nephews, but I’m not getting involved in their parents drama again. I have no idea what I said or did to cause them both to treat me like shit.
It doesn’t matter whether it’s the men I date or my own family, I always end up being shunned, ignored, mistreated, abused – and I’m so fucking fed up of being kicked around by the people who are supposed to have my back. This whole situation makes me feel like my efforts aren’t appreciated and I’m not valued. It also reiterates the fact that I regardless of what my family say, I am well and truly ALONE in this world. My parents don’t give a fuck, my brother doesn’t give a fuck, and every man I’ve ever encountered doesn’t give a fuck either. My brother acts like he’s the only one struggling with Mum’s situation, it would’ve been nice to be able to talk to him about it, but I get the silent treatment instead. So much for the protective big brother lol. He got my hopes up just to let me down and I feel so disappointed with him. I can’t rely on or trust anyone it would seem.
Am I wrong for blocking my brother and his vile babymama? Honestly, I feel like I had no choice but to flush them both as I couldn’t deal with the anxiety they were bringing to my life. Now I’m questioning if I was too hasty to go NC with them? If I’ve made matters worse by blocking/deleting? Or am I doing the right thing by distancing myself from their BS? Either way, looks like they won’t be getting in touch with me any time soon…
I’ve actually had a number of negative responses to suggestions I’ve made for classes or gifts for my nieces/nephews from my sister in law. It always sound a bit curt and hurts my feelings because I’m trying to do something nice for them – even if she wants to say no to something, I always think she could do so in a nicer way. That said, I’m not dealing with all of the other issues on top of it that you have described.
Maybe they are dealing with their own issues and you could mostly leave it alone, but check in with your brother in small ways from time to time. You seemed to enjoy reconnecting with him, so it would be nice to keep some means of communication open and hopefully he will come back in his own time.
More importantly, keep in touch with the kids. Even if it’s just you sending them a card and a small gift in the mail from time to time – it’s a way for you to connect and for them to know that their Aunt is thinking about them. I’m sure it’s great for them to know that they have someone else in their lives that loves them and thinks of them.
I can’t say whether you should be in NC or not. All I can say is – you are carrying a lot of baggage. I remember at the start of my attempts to move toward a healthier place ten years ago – I used the worst names about the people in my life. Vile baby mama was not one of them but close enough. And I realized over time that when we are this judgmental about others we are also this judgemental about ourselves. We are harsh on everyone and everything. We see no redeeming features. We want to burn it all to the ground and dance on the ashes wearing the glittering garments of self righteous self flagellation.
Your story is – everyone let’s me down. I give and I give and I give and those a-holes can’t appreciate it.
It takes two to tango so one must ask how that story came to be. Giving to people you consider ingrates is not true giving.
You shouldn’t cut them out because they’re a lousy no good big brother in name only and his vile babymama. You should cut them out because they bring out the worst in you – negative thoughts, feelings of rage and despair, all the hurt and abandonment of childhood. Your mother that you hate is dying. It’s a tough reality to face. You are likely to want to lash out. Try not to do that. For your own sake.
Sammy,
Whilst I appreciate you taking time to respond, your interpretation of my situation is way off and I can’t relate to your assumptions about me or my situation. Where in my post did I write “everyone let’s me down. I give and I give and I give and those a-holes can’t appreciate it”? In fact, I referred to the fact that I feel like nobody gives a fuck about me in my family (which is true) and how I’m abused (also true and a topic I discuss at great length with my therapist).
If I have judgments about someone based on my experiences with them, then it’s for good reason, so you pointing out my use of language (which I feel is accurate and justified under the circumstances), only makes me feel like you’re being judgmental of me and how I choose to express myself, rather than offering me a fair assessment of the situation which I provided much detail about in my initial comment.
Your attempt to psychoanalyze me, and create your own version of my situation based on your limited understanding of what information I offered is deeply offensive. You’ve completely dismissed the fact that a) I’ve been done wrong multiple times by a number of people; and b) I’m genuinely hurting and upset as a result of this (no, I’m not being a judgmental jerk who considers people “ingrates” as you so creatively worded it).
In an attempt to make yourself appear sympathetic and wise, you’ve successfully managed to project your own issues / beliefs / judgments onto my situation and made yourself look thoughtless in the process, for e.g. “You are likely to want to lash out. Try not to do that. For your own sake.”
Please tell me why would I choose to lash out if I’ve purposely taken steps to go NC and distance myself from the source of my pain???? I avoid confrontation and have remained distant from my family for several years due to the abuse and disrespect I’ve endured since childhood.
So keep your highly imaginative and unsolicited advice to yourself as it’s clearly based on your own personal experiences and doesn’t take into consideration the fact that we’re two different people , with very different life experiences who have different ways of approaching matters like this. And please learn to read and fully comprehend a post before making such grand assumptions about a stranger’s feelings, thought processes or life experiences (you know jack about me Sammy yet you respond as if you know my innermost thoughts).
In future, if ever in doubt, try asking before responding with utter nonsense like you have here.
“We are harsh on everyone and everything. We see no redeeming features. We want to burn it all to the ground and dance on the ashes wearing the glittering garments of self righteous self flagellation.”
Where do do you get off writing such self-indulgent rubbish like this to someone who is actually suffering??? You don’t know me – yet you’ve managed to call me self-righteous, self-pitying, “self-flagellating” and judgmental – under the pretense of trying to be helpful?! Thanks Sammy, really helpful.
LL, you mentioned narcissistic Mom…I’m wondering if you are familiar with personality disorders. The way you write about your experiences with your family remind me of some familiar situations that go beyond excess baggage, AC, assclown. There’s a site called Out of th Fog… there’s a very supportive forum and a toolbox that help you to develop easy to implement skills and approaches to deal with the disordered individuals in your life, whether you choose to continue interaction or go NC. It takes some effort to sort through and get the hang of new approaches ways of interacting but I encourage you to check it out if you haven’t already 🙂 It’s been a game changer and I hope it might help you. Kindly, W
It’s Out of the Fog, not “th”, I’m sure you could’ve figured that out, lol. Check out Medium Chill in the toolbox…oh my, works wonders!
MillionReasons – I think it’s the newness and the feeling lived and special which makes you initially feel as though “you are more yourself” but eventually the pain outdoes that. It’s like when you get a crush – you feel on top of the world, you feel great, you have so much energy, confidence and sexual interest and if he reciprocates that, even better!
Your brain is telling you it’s you, but it isn’t you. It’s just a feeling
I have learnt from my past and if I feel uneasy and something acts as a trigger I listen to that big time. Not only that but I am also very good at listening to what people say which may be a skill from my career in health. I now have the confidence to clarify especially if something is said then corrected. I put me first and if I see red flags then I abort whether it be with a man or friend. I have one friend who makes out she can’t afford to spend a lot of money but then buys herself a £300 smart phone. She asked to make sew something for her and I’ve charged her below cost because I thought she wouldn’t be able to afford the full cost. I see her in a social group and we speak from time to time but not frequently as I am now aware that she isn’t always what she makes out. I can’t abort because we cross paths but have taken a step back.
For me it is all about actions and if those actions make me feel uneasy then I have choices but I won’t allow myself to be taken advantage of. Men have said to me I wouldn’t do that to you then go and do exactly that. Now if a man said that to me I’d be aborting. I’ve had a man omit to tell me that he had a woman in the background for months talking in the singular all the time as I did this etc. though I only knew him professionally, but he was coming on to me no doubt to boost his ego and try his luck. The fact that he lied by omission told me everything I needed to know. Words are just that and we shouldn’t get hung up on them. I have learnt the hard way sometimes but I won’t repeat my hard earned lessons and if I get triggers I don’t do nothing now.
Phoenix- Yes, I have been ruminating about that all week- were we actually in alignment and was I the one who messed it up? Natalie’s comment about ‘less than’ also threw me. I guess I so desperately want those ‘more’ feelings back. With him.
Day by day there are challenges. To stay NC, to not get overly invested in his activities, to accept that it is over. It’s five months NC today.
Paraphrasing Jen from an earlier comment on this topic about normalcy…what he dished out became normal to me. I’m pretty sure the neurotransmitters in my brain rewired a gazillion times during the almost three years. As I went from perfection to vaporized so many times- ok- that’s normal. Throw in some sexual weirdness- ok- that’s normal. He’s an experienced man; he didn’t go from zero to infinity quickly. No, he set the stage; he crafted it all.
But, oh yeah, that excitement, that feeling of more. A friend said to me that I had a significant part in this because instead of setting boundaries early I sent out other messages. They included that all this drama is ok, as are unreliability, lying, inconsistency and the list goes on and on… I don’t know if she was being ironic, but she also suggested that I might be bored in a normal relationship.
At this point, I doubt I will ever know.
Million Reasons, I so hear where you’re coming from. It’s so easy to put yourself in a place where you think, maybe it was me and what if I had done something different???
You are so right that you begin to see things that are probably abnormal as normal. These men are very skilled at what they do and it is so hard to break the cycle. Congratulations that you did xx
Mine just sent me a text saying it was over after nearly six years. That was nine weeks ago and I miss him like crazy. I miss the physical intimacy and connection I thought we shared.
Everyone tells me time is a healer. But I want a date when I will be over him lol.
Good luck with your journey xx
@londonlupie
I will try and say what I said earlier with no sidebar. Someone upset you. You think of them as a ‘vile babymamma’. You feel this way because of how you believe you were treated in the past. You can be sure that she will not think she treated you badly (I’m not saying you’re exaggerating, I’m saying that different people see the same reality differently). The way you talk of her suggests that you don’t like her. The words you use sound like you maybe even have contempt. It’s very likely that when you talk to this person she feels that you don’t like her or that you have contempt. This person then responds to your contempt with her own behaviour which irritates you. She might know it irritates you. She might even do it to irritate you. She might also do it because she knows you have contempt for her. You do nice things for her children and you feel she doesn’t appreciate it. But if you hold her in contempt then she might not see them as nice. By the way – you don’t have to like her. You don’t have to be her friend. But if you are that angry with her, she will react. Maybe being neutral is a good place to be with her. NC is also ok but neutral will help you maintain a relationship with the kids.
I said in my post that when I called people names like this it was because I was also negative and judgmental about myself. I couldn’t see redemption in myself or in others. I wonder if it is the same for you. I am not calling you names – I am saying that I have felt like you feel. And at that time I was not kind to myself. I didn’t see the good in anyone. And I would have burnt it all down and danced on the ashes (if you read it again I actually said ‘we’, not ‘you’). You may not like what i said. Because my read of your situation is that you are hurting. And your brother or his wife will not fix this relationship. And you can’t get them to change. You can only change yourself. Once you treat yourself kindly and at least give others the benefit of the doubt, you might find their bad behavior declines. Or you don’t care so much so it’s easier to forgive.
Here’s a small mantra that worked very well for me. ‘It’s not about me’. Others bad behavior is not about us. It’s about them. They’re stressed. They had a bad day. They have bad role models. They don’t do conflict well. You don’t have to own it. By the same token our bad behavior is not about others. We also have bad days or mess up or just have weaknesses.
No sarcasm in this post – which I sometimes do. No humour which I like to do. No trolling which I do not do. I can’t say things more straightforward than this.
@ Sammy, NO MORE ADVICE PLEASE! THANK YOU!
Just be mindful of what you’re saying and how you say things to others in future because you came off really OTT, condescending and downright judgmental. You assume to know what others are thinking and feeling which is a dangerous place to inhabit because you’re NOT that person and you have no idea what they’re going through.
Lovely lovely you. Pick yourself up, get up, open up the door and walk. And continue to walk. Against the light .With your head high or low, it doesn’t matter, just walk. No explanations, no more trying, no more questions, no something . No. Nothing. You disappear out in space or in to the forest or under the ocean or up in a tree that you hug for weeks or months but you walk and keep quiet. You pick yourself up and you love yourself strong. You love yourself centered , you love yourself respect. You love yourself something like happiness and pride. You love yourself beauty like trees, fields and flowers and wind and clouds. You love yourself something so big that it can never more be deceived. Not by you. Never. You love yourself your own little nest where nobody and nobody and nobody and not even someone like him can even open up the door the slightest . No. It’s yours and only yours . Now sit there safe and learn to be your very best friend.. ( and read Baggage reclaim) That’s what i told myself and that’s what i wish for you. : )))
@londonlupje, Did I say anything specific that you disagree with? If not, the all caps ‘stop giving advice’ is a bit strange on an advice board where you specifically came asking for advice. And where I have given and received advice for years without a reaction such as yours.
MillionReasons
I think I’m the same as you, maybe a regular relationship would bore me. I’ve wanted the same guy for over a year now, We don’t even talk, but he’s still my “drug”. Who knows. I often feel as though I’m happy on my own and that I like attention that not only one man could give (I don’t mean sex with many ppl, just attention), I often feel maybe I’m so insecure that inly one man couldn’t give me all the attention I need. I’ve only been in one long term relationship in my life, I was miserable and pretty much ignored by him.
I think maybe I just have all this baggage, and too much inexperience, to even start to understand my needs Nd wants. Who knows.
Been single 18 months, I’m 32, and staying single for as long as I can. I was 107kg, now down to 85kg and want to lose another 15-20kg. I’ve been concentrating on my weight loss this year, things are going great. I’m just stuck when it comes to a man.
Great read, thank you!
I need to read encouraging positive posts and blogs. This site is nothing short of amazing.
But I have a question – maybe it’s off topic, but I will ask anyway.
Some of us have been involved with an attached man. We fell in love in spite of ourselves. We tried a few times to break up with him – they simply didn’t let us move on. They kept coming back with promises. We suffered. We hoped. We waited.
Here is my question – or a theory: If we – as women – were able to stick together, men would not cheat!! This means, if we united and let’s say ‘reported each cheater, who is promising to “leave” on a website – they would be so scared! I know we love them (initially), so we keep quiet and we’re so scared to lose them – but hell, they deserve to be reported. 🙂 The wives and/or girlfriends could check the site (or not – it’s up to them). But hey – the information, name, height and the SIZE of their bullshit, would be publicly available.
Maybe this is going to be my project during my healing period – I’d create a website, where every fallback girl can ‘report’ her AC. With a profile pic.
I know I’m mostly kidding. But I’m so mad at myself for being so naive during my time as OW.
I have always believed quite strongly that when there is divorce due to one party’s adultery that the co-respondents should automatically be named and they should also pay 50% of costs until the decree absolute. The party that has stayed loyal and true who is divorcing an adulterer should not have to pay a penny and they should get the lions share of money. This would have two effects. Marriage would be taken more seriously and adultery would stop with only fools going there with punitive divorces.
Feisty,
Regarding your post from May 03- I admire your emotional strength. To the slightest extent, when he said he would never be cold or distant toward me, there was a chime in my head that I almost immediately dismissed. It wasn’t even an alarm, just a little ping. Perhaps on a subconscious level I may have thought what you referenced- the importance of their actions.
Phoenix,
Congratulations on your weight loss! For me as well, it is so important to have variables in my life that are confidence boosters. Within the past couple of weeks two men started conversations with me. Kind of flirty but not really overt. They seemed nice and it was good to have that social exchange. I didn’t take me long though to start ruminating about why they found me attractive and he has totally lost interest. The real confidence boosters for me now are that my work is going well and I am concentrating on my move. I’m leery of deriving reinforcement solely from men, because I know I can go there in my head quite easily.
Emma,
Please don’t be angry with yourself. It sounds like you believed, you trusted, and you were vulnerable. I’ve heard: ‘since my divorce’, ‘the divorce is imminent’; and my two favorites, ‘in my heart I’m already divorced’ and ‘in my heart I’m not really married’. We didn’t get to be the OW by ourselves.
On a lighter note, thank you for the best laugh of my day- when you referenced SIZE in caps. I don’t know exactly how you meant it, but I took it literally and LOL.
MillionReasons,
Thanks for your reply. I’m glad I made you laugh. I meant it exactly the way you read it 😉
I love the statements you write about. So classic! These guys say whatever they feel ‘in the moment’. My AC used to tell me : ‘I’m no longer in a relationship (with his gf), it’s just a meaningless struggle’.
The no BS diet I’m on now is detoxifying. It’s painfully necessary.
Thankyou Millionreasons says. I should add that I noted this about men and learnt from those who said then did what they said they wouldn’t do. Now the new me will challenge any man who says that by saying what do you mean, why are you saying that? Or I’ll say the last man who said that did it! Lol. In the past I was silent thinking that if I spoke then I might scare them off. Now it is sort the wheat from the chaff and if they run they run. I am also stronger in that I don’t have the same fears now; fear of being ill and coping (done that), not afraid of being single (proud actually as I won’t make do), fear of scaring a man off (happened anyway no matter that I was silent). So I am just being me and enjoying life.
Love it. I’m with you on this!
I have just kicked a Consultant to the kerb. A year ago I was told I never had a condition that was diagnosed in 2016. After taking medication I never needed for over 12 months I have been left with long term side effects I now live with. The misdiagnosis was based on an assumption. I got another Consultant in the same field and he wanted to make a 2nd diagnosis based on an assumption. I was driving the process in my quest to get answers and he was the passenger. If asked about something he acted but he was passive. I hit the brakes when the possibility of another misdiagnosis raised it’s head based on assumption without proof to protect my self.
I am mentioning this because I looked at actions, he delivered if asked to but it was one sided. I looked at history about to repeat itself and stopped the car. Since the misdiagnosis coming to light last year I have moved on in so many ways and learnt so much. I felt so uneasy about this interaction and was becoming frustrated with it. I then though if this was a man socially I’d kick him to the kerb so why should I accept it in a Consultant who is effing around with my health. He knew what happened, how it affected me mentally and physically and didn’t show any sensitivity. I believe that he was going through the motions and someone wanted me out the door because I have kicked butts and created hell about what happened.
I listened to my gut and acted. In addition I feel empowered and enlightened since making this decision. Not only that but I have expressed in simple language why I made this decision so they understand that I was not about to accept a repeat scenario and go backwards after all my progress. They have behaved abysmally about this misdiagnosis and I have been on a steep learning curve noting actions, not accepting bs and challenging it as part of the new me! You know what they say what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger and this is me, how I am and people can either like it or not.
Recently I was in a relationship which made me feel like I was going crazy. I wasn’t sleeping properly and felt very anxious and out of character. My friends kept telling me I was inventing problems in my head. One night I just lost all control and started shouting at my partner, crying and I couldn’t bear for him to touch me. Again my friends said it was all me and I need to seek help. I am not normally like this and so I ended the relationship, my friends have turned their backs on me. I am sure that my gut instincts were shouting at me that this relationship was wrong on all levels. I am still trying to recover from my emotional roller coaster and I hope this is just a time thing.
MR, yes I find I get attention from men but it’s never lasting, and I’m prone to establishing feelings way too quickly. I see it as dangerous to me and I have to be smart and keep on guard. One day when I’m happy within myself, with the work, I will be ready and not get so upset when I get rejected by men.
Emma,
Thank you for your feedback on my comments. The four I mentioned actually came from two different guys. With one, it was our third date: “By the way, I’m not really divorced. But that is just the legalities; in my heart I’m already divorced”. The others were from the one I mostly write about here. Apparently his wife had an affair and moved. Therefore, “the divorce is imminent” and on and on about how in his heart they have not been married for a long time, how they had nothing, no respect, no love, no sex; and yes How emotionally exhausted he was from ‘the endless struggle’.
Neither have divorced.
Phoenix,
I admire your perception and perspective. For me, the sexual rejection (by the second man mentioned above) has been the most painful rejection I can remember. I can more easily understand no attraction in the first place, returning to an ex, and falling for someone else. But for me this rejection, following what I thought were good sexual experiences has been especially painful. Feisty previously posted regarding this, and her comments were very helpful to me in terms of cognitive understanding. With him-damn- talk about being diminished and dismissed… well, the pain is visceral.
“Healthy connections regulate you and unhealthy ones destabilise you.”
Hmmm, that’s true, and our thoughts plays a vital role (the way we think and interpret things) plays a very vital role in our lives. You are the author of your faith and the captain of your soul. No matter the circumstances you are faced with either in relationships, family, at the office, marriage etc, just remember why you are there in the first place and if the disadvantages is more than the advantages, I believe you know what next to do.
Hi Natalie. I haven’t been here in a long while. I’ve loved your blog for years and have valued your amazing advice and insight, but it felt good to finally not have come here and read read read until 2AM to help me get thru the day. Me finally not needing to come here everyday was like a victory for me. Your words stood in as sanity for me until I could regain my own. Which I did eventually. But….I’m having a hiccup in life and I’m letting my boundaries get walked on. It’s all too familiar and I don’t like it one bit. I came here for a reminder of my own power. Your words cut right thru the denial and the bargaining I’ve been doing with myself. I have a pattern of staying in situations that are bad for me, knowing they are bad for me but analyzing the crap out of it to avoid having to ACT. I am with someone now who can be very mean and short tempered with very small things or for no reason that makes sense to me. Talking to him about it ends up me being yelled at or belittled and I feel worse. I have started keeping my concerns to myself because my sharing them gets me emotionally punished (impatience with me, silent treatment, rude, irritated with me, yelling, very short with me and like a time bomb for exploding in anger if I make one wrong move). I feel he is very critical of me and finds fault with so many of the things I do. I know how unhealthy this is. And he is impossible to talk to. He never apologizes for the hurtful things he says and I am more and more distant and guarded. Then I get punished for that. Its a cycle. A very unhealthy cycle. The simple fact is….I feel beat down and very mistreated. I feel alone and unappreciated and this isn’t how one should feel in a relationship. So, here I am. I’m back for a refresher course in boundaries and being true to myself…. and an NML reality check.
Selkie, you are right on with everything that you have observed!! Now act on it, give it the meaning it deserves, give it the value it deserves! Take a step back, and ask yourself why would I be attracted to a person who treats me that way?
And furthermore look a little deeper what you are seemingly attracted to, is it his image that he has of himself or that others have of him?
Natalie wrote once that we have to accept wholly and fully what we know about that person, even if we don’t like it! Do not focus on their reasons, they might be ‘good’reasons but it doesn’t matter if they treat you badly. You said it yourself that you feel your boundaries were busted, so pick yourself up and reclaim them. It’s very empowering and you will wonder why you were even attracted to him…
Hugs
Wow – this was an eye opener, and just a reconfirmation of something that I’ve known for awhile. I have a friend that used to be a friends with benefits, that went back to friends. I have pretty deep feelings for this person, and I’ve tried to just be friends with them. He is dating someone else and complains about her. I’ve asked him to stop. Half the time, I feel good around him, and then half the time, I feel awful. I don’t sleep well anymore – I’ve had bad dreams about him, it gives me massive anxiety, etc. I know I need to reassert my boundaries, and I know that I also need to wean off our friendship. It’s very hard. He’s got two kiddos that I really care about and enjoy spending time with. But it’s getting harder and harder to do this. It’s not his fault, I’m doing it to me, and I have to let me feel good, not feel bad and lose sleep. It’s just so tough, especially when we are as close as we are.
Amanda–I don’t know how qualified I am to give advice, but I think it’s in your best interests to not hang out with your friend anymore. When trying to get over a certain someone, I read “if he wanted to be with you, he’d be with you.” Those are tough words but they put it all in perspective for me. They will help you establish the distance you need and the space in your life for someone who *does* want to be with you.
It doesn’t matter if your friend is a “good guy” or that you like his kids; you don’t need to hear him complain about his girlfriend, when it’s *you* who want to be his girlfriend. Use the time away from him to be good to yourself.
Wanda, thanks for posting about the website, it sounds great and I’m going to check it out.
This was so right on time for me. I had recently entertained an old lover who came back around claiming he had changed and been to therapy and realized things in his life and blah blah blah. Yet again, the situation left me feeling emotionally unstable, isolated and destabilized. In my heart of hearts I just didn’t trust him. I didn’t have any proof of him seeing another woman or being dishonest but my intution rang loud and clear for me. For a while I didn’t say anything in an effort to keep the peace or downplay possible trust issues. However the only issue was that I did not trust him because he was not emotionally available to me. He lacked compassion and receptivity to my needs and would quickly vascillate from hot to cold, forthcoming to defensive, sincere to manipulative and finally interest to disinterest. It left me feeling so discombobulated and attacked for expressive my emotions, that I’d finally had enough and ended it. I knew that I should have trusted my intution from the start because it was pointing me towards safety and away from contradictory, immature and duplicitous behavior.
In being in a healthy relationship, I have realized that I never had to question someone’s intentions or interest. I have never had to doubt or be ashamed of my emotions either in a healthy interaction. This post is so spot on. Thank you Natalie!
Good for you getting out of this situation. Everything you described is a call for you to get the hell out. There was more than enough evidence in what you were experiencing in body and mind.