Getting married last year was a refresher course in boundaries. If our families had their way, the wedding would have been very Coming To America. Or, yes, even My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding. There would have been five hundred guests–all of them ‘aunties’ and ‘uncles’, don’t you know–Sexual Chocolate for a performer, and my stepfather seated at the back instead of standing at my side.
There’s nothing like family to bring out the people pleaser in you. They know how to strum on every guilt nerve you have because you share the longest history. And to make matters worse, you make a rod for your own back by projecting your fears and assuming roles that don’t serve you.
Even if your family doesn’t actually treat you that well and they are, in fact, incredibly dysfunctional, you can still end up near losing your mind about how to fit in, toe the line, and get their approval.
Despite not growing up around them, my extended family love bandying around the term “family”. There’s this expectation that you should do certain things. “Family do this…. Family do that….”. There’s a fear of crossing la familia. As I said to my father when the great bust-up happened, “Who do you all think you are? The Sopranos?”
You’re not being disrespectful to your family by 1) choosing to be the adult you are with your own life and 2) having boundaries. It’s an unrealistic expectation, whether you or they have it, to be expected to base your identity, worth and happiness around whether you’re pleasing a group of people.
Boundaries are something you learn through trial and error. And there’s something that I know with certainty: You can and are allowed to have boundaries with your family. It’s not “wrong”, so cancel your guilt account.
Boundaries don’t mean that you don’t love or care about family or that you will lose approval. Boundaries don’t mean losing family completely from your life. And if the latter is the case, that’s a very insecure existence that you cannot sustain.
You growing up and having your own life that includes family shouldn’t be something that threatens your family. Still, sometimes it’s how they feel. Being a doormat, though, is only going to make you miserable and continue the dysfunction.
I get so many people asking me how I deal with my family trying to bust boundaries. And I get just as many declaring that boundaries are “impossible” with family, which just isn’t true. Granted, there are some people, family or not, who will try to get their way by hook or by crook because they’re at the abusive end of the spectrum. And just like you don’t negotiate with terrorists, I wouldn’t negotiate with your emotional health. It’s painful to have to distance yourself or even completely opt out for your safety. It is. But if doing so allows you to live your life without torment, take it. If you think you can people-please to create a tipping point of change, you’re making the mistake of seeing yourself as an extension of these people. This is codependency.
Boundaries are for you. You’re not creating boundaries to influence or even control the behaviour of others. You say no, you have boundaries, and you set limits because you know what does and doesn’t work for you, and you want to be happy. Boundaries aren’t about you working out guidelines for others; they’re about deciding how you want to live and living it.
Family are going to respond however they’re going to respond. Experience has taught me that it’s best not to go around with your fancy-pants boundaries expecting people to reward or praise you. Don’t tell them about how you want things to be. Just get on with it.
Learn as you go. Don’t expect to get it “right” the first time or even the fifth or fifteenth time. Do realise, though, that you will gradually see progress over time, although you might not recognise in the moment.
It’s best to start off with known factors. It’s amazing how many people act surprised about stuff that’s been going on for ages. You know exactly where, which, and how family members tend to jump or rattle your fence. Work out the best alternative response for you.
Several years ago, after a stern talking-to from my acupuncturist about holding myself hostage on phone calls, I finally embraced the truth. I didn’t need to say, “My boundary is that I don’t want to spend two hours on the phone with you draining the sh*t out of me each day”. I just needed to show it by having shorter calls. Having opt-out reasons ready and saying something as simple as “I can’t talk right now” also helped. The sky did not fall down.
They can and will try the guilt card, but it’s best to stick to the facts. I appreciate that I came out of my mother’s womb or that somebody else did something for me. That said, it doesn’t mean that I owe boundary busts.
Do stuff because you want to and would do it without expecting something back. Don’t do it for approval or to put an IOU in the system.
Stop trying to control outcomes. Let the chips fall where they may. I learned this the hard way with the wedding, the being ganged up on (apparently, it’s called “family”) and going through a grieving process of sorts. People are going to say what they’re going to say, think what they’re going to think and do what they’re going to do, so it’s best to get on with the business of being you.
It did not matter whether I compromised or didn’t compromise, I would still have been talked about, and there would still have been a fallout. And actually, it all needed to happen.
If you want to do a favour and can do it, plus it doesn’t involve you eroding your self-esteem, knock yourself out. I like doing things for my mother, for instance. What I don’t like is being harangued or guilted into something by anybody, including myself. If you’re being asked to do something that goes against your own values or is even illegal, decline and don’t feel guilty about it. Yes, of course, you can go and rob a shop if asked, but does it mean you should say yes?
If you’re being asked to compromise on something that’s about you or your arrangement, decide what works for you and then let them know. It might not be exactly what they wanted, but it’s your compromise, so they also have to compromise. My family didn’t want my stepfather walking me down the aisle, but I said both could or only he would, so they had to suck it up.
If you’re the only one being expected to compromise, that’s not compromising; it’s losing.
Don’t be wishy-washy and passive. I know it’s easy to agree now, backtrack later or make disagreeing noises or vague protestations without actually saying “No” or whatever you’re being indirect about. When you hint, though, that means no direct message and opening you up to negotiation. I recently offered to do something, and the person then asked for something else. I did say no, but then I also sort of intimated that I might be able to do the other. This morning I said, “This is what I’m doing [the original offer]”, and they accepted it. Be direct and firm.
If you show fear to family members who know how to play you, they know your tell or even your Achilles heel. So look at how you can neutralise your tell (it could be as simple as not biting the bait when they create conflict) or address the vulnerability.
Always remember that a lot of how people react to you not jumping to their beat as you used to is about their discomfort in their comfort zone. But it’s not up to you to manage that, so get on with managing your own comfort…with boundaries.
Your thoughts?
Are you ready to stop silencing and hiding yourself in an attempt to ‘please’ or protect yourself from others? My book, The Joy of Saying No: A Simple Plan to Stop People Pleasing, Reclaim Boundaries, and Say Yes to the Life You Want (Harper Horizon), is out now.
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When I was stuck in my multiple stepmother, piss poor excuse for a childhood, I was always told to be grateful and severely chastised for the slightest of rebellions which of course meant I was being ungrateful. Never mind that most of my acting out was the result of being physically and emotionally abused. Nat, a woman may have gone to the trouble of carrying you, your dad providing for you, but that was their damned job. You have kids, you care for and about them, its in the job description. Don’t wanna care? Don’t have kids. You don’t owe them squat unless you choose to. I learned early on to not only write off family as any source of care or comfort, I learned to set some pretty rigid boundaries as well. No complaining about your marriage, my siblings, the world. No disrespect allowed. This meant cutting contact with my remaining brother and really laying down the law on my dad. Both were needed. I just bought a pellet stove and the guy whom I bought it from (married) and his helper(uneducated, unhealthy, with drunk driving issues) helped me carry the thing to my basement and have been bugging me constantly by text ever since, especially the married dude. Please note at the time I was seductively tricked out in grubby work clothes and a stocking cap. AC returned from a one month absence, plops down next to me at lunch, caresses my hair with his hand as he leaves. He has been told that in Miskwas world, touching a person means you care about them, as he clearly doesnt give a rats about Miskwa, touching her is completely off limits. This was right in front of our Dean so making a scene was off limits. Tomorrow I am going to quit a committee he also is on. Week isn’t even over yet and I am gonna have to lay down the law big time to three men.
What is wrong with this world we live in when a man can touch a woman who doesn’t want to be touched without incident but if she objects she’s making a scene. I understand how it works out like that, been living it since the doc said to my Mom ‘it’s a girl’, but I don’t like it.
Infuriating! How dare that asshole touch you in such a familiar way, as if he had a right to! Who the hell does he think he is? Reminds me of the day my creep dumped me. We were sitting next to each other on my sofa and after he carelessly stomped all over my heart he had the gall to give me a reassuring pat on my leg, as if to say “Well, that’s that! Good girl, thanks for not making a scene. I’m off now – have a nice day. Cheers!”
I wish now that I had made a scene and told him in no uncertain terms that if he touched me again, he’d lose his hand. You MUST say something Miskwa, as what he did was completely unacceptable and stuff like this will likely continue if you don’t.
Miskwa’s experience brought up another insight about my memory that I need to process… I realize that it’s bothered me for a long time because this one small gesture was so dismissive. So patronizing and condescending. Very telling. As if he was the Big Important Adult and it was ok to treat me as the small insiginificant child. Pat me on the leg and then send me off with milk and cookies. Note to self (and others who might benefit): the next time there is a whiff of any dismissive or patronizing behavior, it’s an instant FLUSH red flag.
Hey Miskwa,
Out of curiosity, can you email him at his work email, through your work email, and state calmly and firmly that you would appreciate him not touching you, that you don’t feel that colleagues should be touching others hair without their permission and that it really makes you uncomfortable.
That is a sexual harrassment waiting to be reported. I used to work in HR and if I had emails between professionals stating stuff like that, in complains of impropriety that was gold!
Dear NML,
This is such a timely post. As children we are not strong enough to defend our boundaries, but once we grow up things need to change. We all become peers worthy of respect, consideration and empathy. If the main family message is: some members are more important than you or the group’s harmony is supposed to cause emotional debt in us, it leaves us in a tough spot. The underlying message can have the tone of rejection. Truly a family that runs on threat of rejection is not much family at all. People who can not own their bully like behavior are likely to push others away. These are natural consequences of self centered behavior. It’s no different when the familia is concerned. Bully’s feed on fear. My latest family conflict brought me into therapist office, I needed a witness of their incongruent behavior. For so long I blamed myself for not fitting in, for the nausea I felt during Mother’s Day, for not visiting them for many years. They do know your buttons and play them like a virtuoso since they installed them there to begin with. Thanks for reminding me you have to be firm with them, you are 100% right. If you give an inch they take a mile. Even worse, they turn it around and toy with you with fear tactics.
I’m actively trying to cancel my guilt account. As a child I even blamed myself for several occasions of physical boundary crossings, it made me feel disgusted and was feeling guilty that it digusted me. Afterall, my mother was showing adoration in my changing body. Once I grew up I knew it was not so. My mother used to play with my then developing chest – during the initial stages when it would hurt too much to touch. I never managed to say no. Whether she meant it or if she did not know any better makes absolutely no difference. I don’t mean to be more graphic than necessary but wanted to point out there is no “accidental” way of inappropriate touching of a 11 year old’s body. Often family boundary crossing dates way back. If people feel entitled to cross others boundaries, they will as long as you give in. It may change form but it stays unless we decide to make healthier choices as adults. I wanted to thank you for putting together fantastic posts to support the public. Your writing has been crucial in my new boundary filled life.
Mittens,
your post shocked me, for you and into thinking how much I want to resolve my feelings towards my family and how near impossible it seems when there is abuse at the root. I think I might be making it so difficult by the fact that by resolve , I mean make it work without NC and guilt and I thought I did….but they don`t stop their pattern, they continue, in different ways.My parents are aging and getting frail and they haven`t dished out the physical abuse like your mother, what they taught me in childhood just deepened the effects of it from another family member.They are making me feel responsible for them in their old age and the familiar old feeling of being suffocated into accepting what my gut is screaming against is making me feel desperate, responsible, guilty and cornered.Like they flip a switch, and I take on my back everything they want to dump, being lonely and unhappy too. Or maybe I just take it on like I`m on automatic pilot. Maybe the boundaries with them is like the last frontier…Oh boy…family stuff is the biggest test.
Wonderful post. Our boundaries are not to control others…they’re for us. Love. So true.
THANK YOU NATALY!! THIS EXACTLY WHAT WE, MY HUSBAND AND I, NEEDED TODAY!
This by far is where I lack the most. I get taken advantage of by my family pretty routinely. My grown 26 year old son, who I love dearly and is a good man, leans on me for support so heavily it exhausts me. We’ve talked about it and I hear lots of promises but they never get kept because there is always some new problem (from his own irresponsibility) that pops up to complicate it. He does seem to have a cloud of bad luck on top it. I feel like my life is on hold until he gets it together. He isn’t doing drugs or anything like that but he is very irresponsible while trying to start his own business, sleeping on my couch, coming and going at all hours, leaving messes, sleeping late etc. I live in a VERY small place and have NO privacy. Having someone over for dinner isn’t even a option for me at this point. I know I have enabled him with my ‘help’ but when I do say no I feel tremendous guilt and he knows what buttons to push. I’m trying to work out how to find balance with him but don’t know how to do that without going ape shit on him these days I am so frazzled. I’ve made many attempts to talk to him about all this (till I’m blue in the face) and he hears me in the moment but it doesn’t stick. He only seems to really hear me when I turn into godzilla…..which I hate doing. We only have each other, his dad never participated in his life and the remaining family I have is almost non existent. I feel like it would be deserting him if I stopped helping him and let him suffer his own consequences. How can I let him sleep in his truck? It is my own guilt that is paralyzing me from stepping back but I feel suffocated. When I was his age I had a college degree, a career, a new car, a great place to live all while I was still a single mother raising him by myself. I had him when I was seventeen and just made stuff happen for myself in good ways, and it was freaking hard but I did it. That is what irks me….I worked my ass off and now I feel unappreciated for it. I need some breathing room, but just saying that feels like I am being a bad mother. I scream into my pillow a lot so I don’t explode. I’m stuck between a hard place and a rock.
Nice to hear a mother’s pov selkie:)
Maybe if you started to think of him as a lodger, rather than a son, it might help you enforce the rules – e.g. I’m having someone round tomorrow night, can you make yourself scarce, or if I find your stuff lying around it’s going in the bin – semi humorous but deadly serious – these are the rules so we can both live together and have our lives, and there will be consequences if they’re not respected. I’m pretty sure he’d even nod at the rules and agree.
He’s seeing you as a soft touch right now, not someone to respect. He’ll grumble, but I think respect only really deepens and matures a relationship in the long run.
Hi Fifi,
Thanks for responding to me.
I’ve been round and round and upside down with rules and throwing out his stuff.
Unfortunately, he does nod at the rules and agree, then three days later we are back where we started. If I keep pressing, he says life is too much of a struggle he wish he didn’t even wake up ( he’s not suicidal). Guilt! Maybe I’m making excuses here for my inability to know how to effectively stop all this without kicking him out completely. I think that it may be the only way at this point. I appreciate you responding and you are right, it should work but apparently not the way I’m doing it. He just walks right over me. My frustration is beyond measurable.
show him some tough love! giving someone no other choice than to become independent, in the long run will give them more selfconfidence en strength than all the help you can give. ( see my
post…)
Hi Sandra,
I agree with you. All my guy friends and some of my girl friends say kick him out. I have told him before he needs to get out, he says ‘Don’t worry, I’ll be out by Monday!’ Monday comes and goes and he is still here. It’s easier when they are little, you can send them to there room, take the phone away, ground them, etc. but at his age the leverage I have is no food and making him sleep in his truck. It sounds harsh ( and bad motherly! Uuugghh guilt! ), but if he insists on learning every thing the hardest way possible I might have to let him.
uh, selkie, I do feel for you and understand so well from my own experience. Being the only parent, I realise now, I overcompensated to my kids for the fact they had no father and thought had to provide double amount of love and support. There is a thing called giving too much and it`s not the extra love as we intend it to be, it`s the enabling them not to have responsibility for their own life. My kids are great people too but it got to the point where I felt suffocated and like my back was about to break and they just took and took.I had the same thing, talks that didn`t stick and exploding in godzilla mode that actually frightened the life out of them- and me. It took two years and BR ( wouldn`t have happened without Natalie)and it`s all ended well. I had to stop talking so much and make rules, and follow through with action, letting them feel the consequences of their actions. It felt awfull and scary at first, like I was abandoning them in a way. It also came out in the wash that the situation was not one sided,I was leaning on them emotionally far too much and they felt a responsibility for me they shouldn`t have had and it was hard on them. All to do with overcompensating for the fact that neither of us is responsible for, a father who wasn`t there. I was also like a wounded,twisted pretzel from my bad relationships, un-sorted childhood and at breaking point from the sum total of my life. A worn out doormat. End effect is we all feel respect for one another and we all have our boundaries, and are not so afraid anymore that conflict between us will ruin our little family. It didn`t and it won`t.Conflict is only a difference of an opinion and if you love and care about each other, which sounds like you both do, you will work it out. Let him take his part and responsibility, you can`t do it by yourself. In a practical way Fifi`s ideas are great. Rooting for you.
Sushi,
You said:
“Being the only parent, I realise now, I overcompensated to my kids for the fact they had no father and thought had to provide double amount of love and support. There is a thing called giving too much and it`s not the extra love as we intend it to be, it`s the enabling them not to have responsibility for their own life.”
Yes yes yes. You nailed it right there. You get it completely what I am going through. Pretty much EVERYTHING you said parallels my life as a single parent and my struggles with enabling him vs abandoning him. AND yes, the part about it being more than one sided rings true. It is scary but I know deep in my heart I need to be more tough on him. When I’ve tried he reacts in a way that makes me feel horrible and like I’m betraying him, but I guess I need to stop letting him hijack me in that way which will be better for both of us in the long run. It like the saying, ‘ This is going to hurt me more than you.’
Thank you so much for sharing your similar experience and your encouragement. It’s so positive that you and your kids worked this out and all grew from it. I know he and I will be okay in the long run but the struggle with him has exhausted me.
Hi Selkie,
Starting small worked for me. I had reactions from my kids too that made me feel pretty awful and I think that had to do with ME having low self confidence. Reality is, our kids will not like us all the time. And that is OK, I promise you. Since I didn`t feel entitled to respect, help,consideration : basically “my human relationship rights” in general I didn`t demand them from them, I was hoping I`ll get back what I put in. I either did Godzilla, when I could take it no more or asked in a weak, slightly whiny voice which communicated; “I`m asking you this, but feel guilty for doing it,please like me anyway” My daughter pointed this out to me. I had to put some messages ( in a voice that says – “what I`m asking is the most natural thing in the world” ) on a repeat…extremely frustrating and I had to make myself pay attention to stop overlooking stuff just because I was in a hurry or really busy or just fed up. I had to cut out throwing of a soft cushion for their bums to land on many times and once I got over my initial “horrification” it felt like the right thing to do. That action of not being there to mop up the mess brought the biggest change in them. I don`t think I could bring myself to throw my child out, think it`s better to make their lives uncomfortable. Like, have people for dinner as often as possible, it`s his mess not yours, they`ll understand and I bet he won`t like it, ect. Put a limit on how late he can come back. Treat him like a child where he wants to be treated like an adult and like an adult when he behaves like a 5 year old. That says; you can`t have your cake and eat it too. I don`t know if it`ll help you, but it would be a start. Hug!
“I had the same thing, talks that didn`t stick and exploding in godzilla mode that actually frightened the life out of them- and me.” Sushi I have flipped out on my daughter so bad it scared me a few times!! lol I can’t imagine going it alone with this situation so kudos to you. I do have the support of my ex hub and my other daughter. She has worn all of us out. All three of us are frustrated but they established boundaries first and I must say have helped me to see how my behavior was enabling her. This is a work in progress.
Wow Selkie I am going through the same thing with one of my daughters who is close in age to your son. She has gone through hard times re illness etc and my heart breaks for her. I worry about her all the time. I know that I have enabled her somewhat by feeling sorry for her. My other daughter and my ex husband actually had to intervene recently to make me see that I was not helping her by financially supporting a lifestyle she can’t afford by herself. I have done this for way too long and I realize she has been manipulating me for some time now. I have also noticed she takes advantage of her boyfriends. This is one daughter I actually have to side with the bfs on! She is a very sweet, beautiful girl and she is the first one taking care of me when I am sick etc which makes matters worse because I am such a sucker for her. I know it is not fair to her very accomplished sister but I rationalize that as a mother you give to the child who needs you the most. I am finally doing the tough love thing. I know I have to do this. I am actually making an appt with her therapist to discuss a plan of action and to deal with my problem of not being able to say no to her.
Beth,
This has been going off and on with my son for some time. He moved away to another town for 3 years and was on his own, although still struggling. I didn’t think it would come back to him living with me in my tiny studio, but here we are. It snowballed after he had a break up from his first real relationship and he was heartbroken. I had him reading BR! It’s been long enough that that isn’t a problem anymore, but yet he is still here. It’s tough saying no to the ones we love especially when we know they are going to suffer for a little while because of it, even if it is their own responsibility. I have been a Mom since I was 17, I really never had a life for me and me only, so that lends to this and my inability to distance myself. Good luck with your daughter and the meeting with her therapist. Sometimes the right things are so very hard.
Selkie I have the same scenario except I have plenty of room so of course she is thinking whats the big deal and she is quite comfortable. The worst of it is she is only working part time and I am subsidizing her and she spends like mad. It is making me crazy and I have finally cut her off. She keeps saying she is looking for another job but I don’t see a real effort. She indicates she wants to move out all the time but is doing nothing about it. She has had problems with depression in the past and I know that plays on my mind. Her bf has a big nice apartment and wants her to move in but she won’t and I have to respect that. I can’t even begin to tell you what to do because I know I could never put my daughter out even if 100 professionals tell me but I will listen to the therapist on everything else. I just have to keep working on her and make it harder for her so she gets motivated to find a better job and cut down on her lifestyle. I understand your dilemma all too well. Good luck to you Selkie You have had so much responsibility from a young age and yes you do deserve the kind of life you want to lead now. We will work this out I’m sure.
To add insult to injury every time I have problems with my daughter I want to call the ex Narc. He was so great to me when I went through my my daughter was sick and always knew what to say to make me feel better. Of course I know that Narcs know how to fake empathy better than anyone and I have to fight the lingering feeling that he really did understand what I was going through and wanted to help. Thank God I have read enough literature to know better and it keeps me strong. “When a narcissist is turning on the spigot of his well practiced fake empathy, the unsuspecting victim feels singled out as a very special person who is prized and indispensable. The socially gifted narcissist is an expert at convincing others that he/she cares deeply about them.” That says it all.
Selkie,Sushi, and Beth d,
Just wanted to join the chorus. I’ve posted on other threads about my 23 yro daughter and how I’m struggling with saying no, reteaching her what to expect from me, and establishing boundaries since she moved back a year ago heartbroken. When she unexpectedly left for college on the east coast at 19, 3,000 miles from home, I expected her back within months. Her idea of taking out the trash was to bring it down to the kitchen and she had seldom seen snow. She excelled 3,000 miles from home and I guess she figured out that trash had to go somewhere other than the kitchen. She loved her University as well as the snow. When I visited, she even planned an iternary, including travel time. This from a kid who figured if class started at 10:00am that meant she got up at 10:00am. In the year that she has been home, we have gone through some really tough times (correction: SHE has gone through really tough times). It’s been difficult trying to maintain boundaries for me and for her. I still want to jump in and fix her problems but since she is an adult, I can’t fix them anymore. Thus, I am learning boundaries. I probably shouldn’t have fixed them in the first place…shoulda, coulda, woulda thing. I was a single parent for 20 years and overcompensated. Now I’m facing the enabling vs. abandoning as well. I guess my rambling point is, since she returned home (heartbroken, without her degree, and 45K in combined debt), we have had the opportunity to learn boundaries, including emotional, financial and legal, for the first time. It is a struggle every single day though.
And…if Natalie allows a double post…establishing boundaries with my daughter has been THE most difficult thing I have ever done, including NC with my family. NC with the exMM, pales in comparison. Establishing boundaries with my daughter has been, as Natalie describes, a process of trial and error. Some days, I can see progress. Other days, not so much. For example, she lost her license due to a DUI and adhered to not driving for 6 months. In the last two weeks, she is driving without a license and isn’t home tonight even though her class ended 2 hours ago. Of course, I can’t DO ANYTHING, although the car is registered in my name and I pay for it. So I will have to enforce that boundary when she gets home. Although I’m not the praying type, I’m praying she is accepted at a University/College for fall as far away from home as is possible. My only regret is that in her numerous college apps, she didn’t apply to one in the UK.
I cringe when folks post about their narc/dysfunctional parents. Will my daughter post those comments about me even though I’ve tried so hard? I haven’t been perfect by any means. I have done the best I could. I hope one day she can forgive me for not being perfect.
Runner,
I finder it harder to establish boundaries with my kid more than any other person too. And like your daughter, my son did better for himself when he lived 5oo miles away on his own. The dynamic is so different with our kids than other people in our life. I don’t owe people anything and if they walk on me I can just walk away because there is no real obligation but with a kid there is a degree of obligation ( within limits that I apparently haven’t mastered) and we want to help them. Plus it hurts us to so them hurt. We spent years protecting them, feeding them, educating them, loving them, soothing their falls, etc so when the day comes when we have to stand back and watch them walk into the holes THEY dug it’s hard. When my son is running towards metaphorical barbed wire and I say, hey you better slow down, he ignores me or says, I know, I know, but ends up all tangled, It’s then very tough for me to not help him after he falls or snip the barb wire so he doesn’t do it again. It has an undertone of codependency on both sides. I haven’t been a perfect parent and in hindsight could of done some things differently but I did the best I could and was a good mom. I think our kids will look back and think we did just fine, once they pull their head out of their a**’s. Hang in there.
Runner, you’re no narc. I see your empathy daily. However, I have a thought about “the setting of boundaries” concept.
As parents, usually we are benevolent dictators. We make the laws and then go to war with ourselves about enforcement. We have our peers, culture, socioeconomic
backgrounds to shape our decisions. Ultimately as parents we “pick our battles”
with our children. Win some, lose some.
Boundaries I think are about OUR behaviour and response to others, not trying to control them.
Examples: My boundary: I will not respond when a man I loved caresses my hair without my permission. I can’t control his impulses. My boundary is my self respect. When he does that in
a public setting I am selfcontrolled and say nothing.
But I think to myself, well, you can’t resist my gorgeous hair, you have no respect or control. You have tried to take from me again. But I no longer enjoy you caressing my hair, and I do not give that privilege to you any more. I have set the boundary for me, in my mind. I have self control of me.
Runner Our daughters sound like soul sisters “I still want to jump in and fix her problems but since she is an adult, I can’t fix them anymore. Thus, I am learning boundaries. I probably shouldn’t have fixed them in the first place…shoulda, coulda, woulda thing”
That is exactly what I did..not without a fight but I would break. I can remember her in hs telling me a paper was due the night before and staying up all night to get it done. I also went through the dui and debt thing with her too. I bailed her out of financial and legal crap. I can remember flying across the country while she was in college because she was so distraught over a breakup and wanted her mommy. It’s just so frustrating to keep waiting for her to get her crap together. It is so much more difficult to establish boundaries with your child when the love is so unconditional. No more fixing for me. I know it doesn’t help.
And another one! My 23yr old daughter ran rings round me ever since I split from her Dad when she was 16.And I let her because I thought it was my fault she was so unhappy. She is a lovely,intelligent girl with a lot to offer but she dropped out of uni, had a series of boyfriends who treated her badly and I was always there offering support and sympathy but the more I gave the more she turned against me (whilst continuing to use me lol). A year ago, I realised I was enabling her behaviour and asked her to leave home. She now lives in a shared house and has had to take responsibility for herself. I still help her with stuff but nowhere near as much as I did and not if it is something she can reasonably do for herself.About 6 months ago, she told me that throwing her out was the best decision I ever made for both of us!!We have a lot more respect for each other now. Tough love every time.
As to whether boys or girls are worse, I also have 2 boys, 20 and 17 who seem to be much better at taking responsibity for themselves.Of course they have also tried to push the boundaries but I found it much easier to say No to them. Don’t really understand why.
Susannah when a girl is having troubles she is like a damsel in distress and we just want to kiss her boo boo and make it better. I have two girls. They are night and day. Not one ounce of these kinds of issues from my other daughter. We all tended to spoil my other daughter because she had medical issues when she was young. I know for me, I was just so grateful she got better. The past few years is when I really realized she was out of hand and it has really come to a head recently. I refuse to fight and battle her anymore so I just calmly explained “the party is over” I will not subsidize you any longer. You have a roof over your head and food and I won’t deny you that but the rest is up to you.
selkie, bethd, runnergirl and me,
when was the last time we said to ourselves, we did a great job bringing those kids up the absolutely best way we knew/know how? Kudos to all of us 🙂
Amen Sushi 🙂
Sushi,
Thanks sweetie.
Wow ladies, once again, I thought my situation was unique. Unfortunately, I guess it isn’t. Sounds like our 20-something young adult children are soul sisters and brothers. As I was reading through your comments, dealing with my daughter and former best gf who has popped back into my life, I remembered Natalie’s comment: I am the common denominator in my life. Last night after posting, I called/texted my daughter and told her to get home and there would be no more driving without a license. She called me crazy. Rather than going Godzilla, I told her it was the law,I didn’t invent it nor did I violate it. Thus, I’m not crazy. She was home within 30 minutes. She is eligible for a restricted license (school & work) and won’t be driving until she gets the restricted license, period. So yeah, I can have boundaries with my young adult daughter. Since I was on a roll, I told her that her clean laundry in the living room needed to be dealt with ASAP. It disappeared this evening before she left, although she accused me of “nagging”. I didn’t engage.
I’ll post on the previous article about saying no as to how I dealt with the pop-up, boundary busting best girl friend who is 50-something and acting as though she is 20-something. Between last night and tonight, I finally heard the boundary message loudly and clearly with respect to all areas of MY LIFE. The universe sure has a way to test me.
sushi, you are right. We did a great job. Kudos to all of us. Let’s all hang in there. At some point, it’ll just be too embarrassing for them to be living at home, sleeping late, and doing nothing, right? Send up a prayer that a uni sends an acceptance letter.
To all you wonderful women drawing boundaries with your kids, I salute you. I don’t know what it’s like to be in your position. I do know that my mom doesn’t have the best boundaries and when I stay over at my folks’ house I feel like I revert back to more of a user than I usually am.
It’s definitely a two-way street but I watch my mom not knowing how to draw boundaries with anyone else, and it is in part her not knowing that she could put that giving energy toward herself and learn to get a bigger feel good hit from that than the power/comfort/feel-like-a-good-mom thing she gets from over-giving (which always comes with a resentment hangover she’s not that great at hiding).
My sis moves in and out at will even though she’s married. I still have stuff there I stored while doing my PhD; i.e. six years they’ve had my pots and pans.
While if my mom grew a pair it would be a whine for us on some level, on many other levels it would be so great. Then, if she were a woman with boundaries, I could relate to her as a fellow woman-with-boundaries. Now I often feel like when we talk I have to do a performance of how well I am doing because that is what makes her feel comfortable (i.e. knowing that the way she gives is okay, because see how successful Mags is? and that she won’t be expected to be the role model that she can’t be right now).
In any case I feel like I struggle to say no to myself now as much as she struggled to say no to us. And when I do say no to myself, it comes from the same unhealthy places (resentment, financial instability, self-denial, martyrdom) that it did when she used to say no to me.
This is not to angrily blame my mom, but just to say that the apple hasn’t fallen far from the tree and now I’m responsible for figuring out boundaries.
If learning to say no to your kids means they learn at 20 (rather than 40!) how to say a healthy no for themselves to things that aren’t good for them, then you are still being a great mom.
It is interesting to hear this Magnolia. Figuring out boundaries from the perspective of a mother of a young adult daughter is really complicated. There are many folks in the US with their young adult kids moving back home so it’s a thing here. And the consensus is they revert back and we get the over-giving hang-over. So, I was riding high with enforcing the no driving without a license boundary last night. Today she’s out driving without a license. So, yeah. At some point, it becomes her life, her decisions, her choices. I’ll always be there but I can’t live her life or make her decisions. Guess that is the part of growing up.
It is really difficult figuring out how to be there, be supportive, and not be enabling. I’m trying to hit the balance.
Magnolia,
you explained this well oiled machine of interactions and consequences beautifully. My daughter could have written this about me…I could have written it about my mum ( not as well as you did). Once in a while on this site I find somebody expressed me better than I could do myself and missing links fall into place- it`s one of those, thank you 🙂
people are going to say what they’re going to say, think what they’re going to think and do what they’re going to do, so it’s best to get on with the business of being you.
This is my new morning mantra 🙂
Hi Natalie,
Okay, so this was a great post…..and I know that I should be leaving some great, reflective comment. But all I can think of is Sexual Chocolate!!!!! Ahahahahhahahahahaaa!!!!! LOVE IT!!!!! Would you have used Soul Glo at your wedding too? 🙂
Oh yes sexual chocolate just seen that movie for the hundredth time on sun!! But really great post Nat, just last mth my Dad had about 30,000 and made bad investments turned around and asked me for 350.I told him I could give him 100.I felt a lil bad but I figure My mom had a nice chunk of that money, why wasn’t she giving him 100, everyone was mad but, oh well I helped him out but couldn’t short my bills to do so.
I work 6am til 2:30,I have a sis that works an hr away, I was suppose to be the driver for her when she got off work at 8pm.I told my fam NO.I need my off days for personal stuff to take care of, if its a day I’m able to do it that I’d let them know in advance.
I am called mean and crazy but like u said Nat either way it had gone they still would’ve had something to talk about or not satisfied. But I do really love my fam.
Rev you are just so cute and funny!!!
Beth thank you! You just made me smile! 🙂
Absolutely!!
Standing up to family bullies can be one of THE most difficult, but most powerful thing one can do in their life.
This past fall, I finally really truly stood up to my nasty, petty, bully of a mother. We were at a family gathering to celebrate the birthdays of my young niece and nephew. My mother was ranting and fussing about some nonsense related to Facebook. She was jealous that I was “friended” by her younger sister and brother (my aunt and uncle) who are pleasant, reasonable adults. Mom was fussing and bitching up a storm, dripping with sarcasm and accusations. She knows good well why she is not my “Facebook” friend – it’s because she’s controlling and judgemental and definitely not a “friend” of mine.
“How old are we mom? Last time I checked we’re both adults here, not teenagers.”
With that comment, she shouted back at me to “shut up!”
I stood up from my chair and said (from the pit of my gut, mustering every ounce of courage I could gather)
“I’m 47 years old! YOU do not get to say that to me anymore!”
The room fell silent. My sister, sister-in-law, and other family members stood slack jawed, but I could see a smile cross a few faces.
It was probably one of the most empowering and terrifying things I’ve done in my life.
This event also seemed to bring about a change in my mother’s behavior. She figured out that nobody is going to invite her to any more family gatherings if she behaves like a child.
You’re absolutely right on, Nat. We can talk about boundaries and practice them with friends, lovers, and colleagues but if we can’t hold them with family then we still have work to do.
Oh Amy this made me laugh. I am also 47 and have a mother just like that. If I had stood up to my mother in public like you did, she would have fallen to the floor, clutching at her heart. Seriously. Talk about flaming Control Freaks. My mother just cannot get over the fact that I am not an extension of her. I have extremely different views from her on most things and our interests are polarised. She cannot forgive me for simply being myself. I am saying no to her more and more often, but I do tend to lie to avoid contact with her which I know is lazy. To be honest though, I am not interested in improvong my relationship with he as I do not like her and onlytolerate her in my life so as not to alienate my own children who have no concept of how evil, nasty, manipulative and did I mention evil, granny really is. My only aim is to stay as LC with her as I can get away with until one of us dies.
Wow some of these comments struck a nerve, especially about being different from one’s family; I am the only Democrat in a family of Republicans/Tea Party-ers…vegan to meat eating, Comp Lit degree to Business degree, Teacher to Executive, Atheist to Christian…you name it, I am the opposite.
I finally figured out this last Christmas that any debate that is brought up on my bro’s end ( about politics, school reform, diet etc), is always brought up not to hear my side, but to bait me and try to get me upset. I really don’t know why he does this. When I look back he had done this since childhood. He just is like my dad, a baiter
I am pretty good at avoiding it when I am on my toes, but when I drink I forget that he does it and get roped in. SO I think that I need a new plan; I am just going to say next time “You know, everytime someone brings up politics/school reform/veggie diets etc.you all ask my opinion…yet I get jumped on for expressing my opinion, so I am kind of confused why people SAY that they want to hear it, when it is clear that you don’t. What is that about?” with a big smile. I know that that is a tad bitchy, but I really do sometimes feel like my family needs to see how they just LOVE to create situations where they flip out. It is like they can’t just enjoy being together, they have to have a big fight. It is so dysfunctional.It is annoying on top because esp with my diet, I am always the one quietly managing it. I just show up with a dish, eat what I can of others and don’t make a fuss but my bro can’t let it go “Doesn’t this steak look good hmmm” with this big dramatic grin; it is really irritating; I feel like I am dealing with a 6th grader ( the grade I teach).
The last time we all went to church my sister-in-law was telling me how much she appreciated that I had not “outed” myself to my niece and nephew yet ( about not beleiving) and she was complimentary about how I handle myself in religious situations but then her mom had to start saying “Well you will come back. You will find your way. I will pray for you.” Grrr.
I know that we all make our own choices, but it is really irritating how many people try to force their views on others; really left-wing people have the rep of doing that but I don’t see that in my family. It is all the far right traditionalists that just bait all the time. It is like they can’t just shut up and accept that their steak/god/political views don’t need to be automatically foisted on others.
It is so hard to know why they do this. The Christmas before last I had to spend Boxing Day listening to my mother and her friend spouting their racist, xenophobic/right wing crap. I felt so disgusted with myself afterwards because although I didn’t agree with them, I stayed quiet, because I didn’t want to take the bait or, worse, “Ruin Christmas.” Last Christmas I totally avoided my mother as I knew I couldn’t/wouldn’t handle a repeat performance. Sounds like you are doing well handling your family. My mum’s main interests are celebrity gossip/village gossip/slagging off everyone she knows. I don’t even know who she is talking about half the time. AAGGGGHHHHH!
I did the same thing. LC with mother and didn’t want my kids to know just how bad she is. After all theY only had one Granny. A couple of years later I found that she was trashing me and my husband behind our backs to the children and telling them not to tell because Mummy would get very mad at Granny. It was a pack of lies and fabrications. I went NC and my eldest daughter did too. The youngest still goes over now and then and comes back in tears. It won’t take long for her to go NC as well. We give these people the benefit of the doubt and they backstab you and poisson your childrens minds. Beware.
Yep, one of the reasons I am now NC with Narc Granny. She loves the triangulation, setting one person up against another and sitting back and enjoying their misery as they slug it out. It’s sick. I caught my mother telling my three year old neice, “You love mummy, and you love daddy, but you don’t love Bubba (her 1 year old sister) do you?” How low can you go?
I’m glad you held to your boundaries with your family Natalie and your stepfather was at your side…I loved the wedding pics.
You are right about not jumping to their beat is about their discomfort in their comfort zone. It’s sometimes difficult to stay comfy in my new comfy zone. I’m really appreciating my new life, thanks to you and BR!
Ummmm…..I think (and hope) that you received my comment in the spirit in which it was given, Natalie, and that no offense was taken. It’s just that I’ve seen “Coming to America” more times than is healthy, and I have been known to sing “To be loved….” out in the streets with friends when I’ve had one too many. Damn, that’s a good movie.
Of course I did; just gutted I didn’t mention Soul Glo myself!
Whenever my day sucks, that is my go-to haha! That and the barbershop 🙂
“You know what Frank told me, he said ‘Hey, Joe Louis is 137 years old.’ A hundred and thirty-seven years old!”
LMAO!!! You guys are awesome!!!
I love this one! I recently had to block my older sister on Facebook. “What are they, 14 years old?” you ask? We’re both in our 30’s. Siiiigh. I’m not entirely sure why, but she would go through my profile and call my mother anytime she found anything that “made me look bad”, because she’s “just trying to help.” Errrr, last I checked, my life isn’t in a state of hot-messitude where I need my sister to monitor my Facebook profile.
My personal favorite was over the summer, when a friend tagged me in a bunch of pictures from the beach. She called my mother up and said, “Natasha posted a bunch of BIKINI PICTURES on Facebook!” and I got a text from her telling me to take them down because it made me “look desperate”. Nothing says desperation like hanging out at the beach with one’s friends while one is clad in a bathing suit, obviously.
You would think a simple unfriending would do the trick, but no. She would look me up in order to find something wrong with my profile picture. You’d think I was jailbait on Instagram! She even managed to find something wrong with a picture of me AT A WEDDING. Finally, I had had it and I had to block her. Now, every single time we speak or see each other, she asks why she can’t find me on there. As part of my BS Diet, I woman-ed up told her the truth – that I’m perfectly capable of monitoring my own (completely boring-ass) Facebook profile and it’s inappropriate for her to be constantly “checking on me”! This went over like a ton of bricks, naturally, because “she’s just trying to help”. Whatever. At least I have some peace!
“Just trying to help.” THAT old chestnut. Sheesh.
Agreed! The next time she says it (oh, and there will be one!), I may just decide to make it interesting and say, “Help with what, exactly?” Isn’t it amazing how the people we love the most sometimes have the potential to aggravate us like no one else?!
@Natasha,
I think that you need to start helping her; okay not really but seriously how funny would it be to text “You have no bikini pics up; why are you so insecure re; your body image that you can’t just wear a two piece?” “I notice that you barely post anything without double checking 16 times to make sure that it does not make you look “bad”: Do you think you have self-eseem issues?” Maybe that would do the trick…;)
I think that would be beyond amazing haha! I would probably have to go into Witness Protection for at least six to eight months, but it would be so worth it. I love my sister, but if I know her like I think I do, she’d come up with some aggravating response like, “Well, I’m MARRIED and you’re not, so you don’t KNOW how different it is when you’re a MARRIED woman.” Oy vey.
Yeah…’cause we all know that TRULY happy and content people need to prove to others how much better their lives are.
WOW just WOW I could of NEVER put up with that kind of thing fro ma sister for one minute. You have some patience.
Facebook is weird because it does tend to bring out peoples insecurities and compulsions. I always remind people that you don’t have to use it if you don’t know how control yourself!
My mum has issues with Facebook she is not on Facebook and doesn’t seem to understand it that well tbh. I tried to explain how it works but I could visibly see her struggling with the concepts of the ‘wall’ and such.
She doesn’t like her photo on there and she’s perfectly ok in having that opinion. For ages she lectured me on the lack of privacy and reputation etc… about Facebook. There are some valid points to be made – but what used to annoy me the most was her lack of aptitude of how it actually works. Also how she had little confidence in me as an adult knowing how to represent myself on the internet!. She’s very ott/negative in her thinking – always airs on the paranoid/overly concerned side about almost everything. Facebook is a special concern!
I have recently cut ties and gone no contact with her completely. She went to my aunties birthday party and the pictures were uploaded from that. I saw them. I went to visit my auntie recently and she told me about how my mum asked her to take those ones of her down because it would offend me to see her ?!
I only felt a lil slight shame that I couldn’t go because its hard for me and her to be in the same room and thats all.
When my auntie said she didn’t understand why that be bother me, my mum replied by saying ‘you wouldn’t understand. you are not respecting me’. Which is quite a standard response for her. She removed them eventually but not before my mum kept bugging her all day to do it.
Its hard going NC with your own mother when your connection to other family used to be through her. They all seem to understand these days which is ok, but I do still get comments like ‘oh but she’s your mum’ ‘mums are like that’ ‘just don’t tell her much’.
I went through years of taking on her stuff until I developed an ability to have some boundaries with her. But I still slip up every now and then and let her in and she ALWAYS uses it against me. I fully need to concentrate on my own life right now and unfortunately she needs to learn that manipulation and demanding information doesn’t work on me anymore.
Oh NK, I’m so sorry you have to deal with this. I completely understand in that I tell the aforementioned sister nothing and I mean noooothing private about my life, because it will be used against me. I can’t imagine how hard it is to go NC with your mother. Here’s hoping that she learns to take your boundaries to heart. I can guess that it’s very frustrating to say, “Okay, so I’m not going to tell her blah, blah and blah.” and then have her get it out of you and pull the ol’ shame-game on you! Why, oh why, do people do that? Hope everything is better, sooner rather than later!
I’ve blocked immediate & extended relatives. Blood is not immune to being blocked for (toxic) nonsense. Whatever maintains one’s sanity, just do it.
I am only just learning to speak up for myself and say when im not happy . Its a conditioning that awful self doubt when you say no . Now i dont fear it . Whats the worse that can happen ! Plus ive notice people who witness a change , some stop trying it on . Others its a you will learn eventually . That the doormat has gone .
this comes at a good time. I’m in the same conflict with my sister again that I have had several times in the last 15 years. She’s 41 and keeps on living in other people’s houses without paying rent and ‘searching for herself and her dreamjob’. At this time she’s living for free with my parents, and now she has taken money from my dad that was not hers to take because she is completely broke and thought she was owed it because she had helped a little bit at home?! After a huge fight with my dad, things went back to usual between them, but I can’t help remaining mad at her. It’s so against my values, taking what’s not yours and now I have said to her she can’t stay here (which she does once every week for another course she takes, afther she already has multiple diploma’s that she doesn’t use, she’s a veterinarion for christ’s sake… )until she’s got a job and earns her own living. It’s very difficult to say no, but I really believe in tough love. I wrote her the definition of tough love, her reply: I don’t believe in that. Yeah, right, if everybody would treat her like that, she would have nowhere to stay and she would have to fend for her own, for the first time in years. Family… it can be so complicated, but yes, I do have boundaries and values and I refuse to help someone who is more than capable to be independent, but just doesn’t do what she ought to. And yes, I still feel some guilt,I lie awaka at night, but I’m fighting against it. Thank you for your post.
Sandra, your sister might be a perfect match for my brother! He is younger than I am (in his mid-20s), but Lawd Have Mercy, he is a pain in the a**. His classic move is to insist on moving to a new city (“With a job in hand?” you ask and I say, “No, of course not!”), completely screwing up getting himself and his belongings there and my parents step in. Then anywhere from four to twelve months goes by and he has not found a job, moves home and is a nightmare to my parents because he’s unhappy. I hope so much that he grows out of it. I think you are handling it exactly right – leaving your parents to do as they please, but keeping your own boundaries with her. I think you are 2 million percent right not to have someone in your house that helps themselves to other people’s money because they feel they’re “owed” it for helping around the house. Ummmm, isn’t that what children do for their parents? As I hope my brother gets his sh*t together, I will hope your sister sees the light!
Oh Selkie, right there with you. It isn’t so much my son living with me, it’s the stagnation. Where are you going? What are your steps? Your goals? What did you do today to get there??! Coming home and taking a nap isn’t going to cut it. Getting up at noon isn’t either. That cereal bowl on your floor that’s been there for a week doesn’t cry out I am preparing for my SATs. And then he throws back at me how I go straight to the couch after work. Of course I’ve driving the other kid to and from school, worked all day, paid all the bills, probably gone for food or done chores or plowed the north footy or WHO KNOWS because that’s what adults do to survive their days, then I sit on the couch and crochet a scarf. It’s my right. Lol. It is frustrating. I want my son to get it. The best thing my parents did was kick me out. I wished to make the transition more smooth with my son but I’m not sure how. After my Godzilla episode last night, he did laundry and cleaned the kitchen. He’s picked up more responsibilities along the way,or, car insurance, phone,etc, still grumbling saying his friends didn’t pay for that while in college (he’s yet to take steps for college) … but he has been consistent. Aye aye aye…
Lo j,
Hah, the inert cereal bowl and sleeping late, again. I know it! Its funny, they do straighten up after our fire breathing dragon episodes but when they start slipping backwards again it’s like WTF, NO, not again? This is creepy but I can see how this reflects how I behaved in other relationships. I talked and talked about what should happen, felt a lot of guilt, got really pissed, and felt used, then got angry which brought about temporary results. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. I’ve been a serial doormat. Hearing everyone’s experience with their own kids has actually really helped. Thanks for sharing with me.
Selkie Yep, tis the same world that tells a woman to “get over it”, rather than suggesting that men apologize for shite behavior, where your dad tells you you shouldve been “an ordinary housewife” when you have three goddam college degrees, a healthy, exotic looking , very alive, intelligent woman is told “you need to settle for unattractive/overweight/uneducated men”. when is the last time a man who was anything that I just described was told to settle. yep, and we are heartless bitches for enforcing boundaries. ok, enough ranting and time for tough love. your son is using you as a meal ticket. the kindest thing you could do is force him out on his own, no matter how much you love him. otherwise he will have zero living/coping skills and will be a serious problem for every female he gets involved with. as an educator, I see this sort of thing all the time. he is adult, high time he acted like one. after I had raised my brother, on occasion he would stay with me as our dad and his then wife didnt want him around. he was fed, laundry done etc. but he had to work for his keep. he was far younger than your son is.
@ the parents with the adult kids at home,some advice along the same lines as above… full disclosure:, I don’t have kids BUT I have taught 1000+ tweens and teens at school in the hood; boundaries ARE love.
As far as I am concerned “high/reasonable expectations” is also a synonym for love and respect as well. I tell that to my kids all the time “You are smart,You are all capable and caring young ladies… you are MORE than capable of being respectful and I will not lower my standards for you in this class, towards me or your classmates. To do so would be disrespectful towards you. Having low expectations for you and high ones for another kid would be me giving up. I will not give up. We will all wait patiently, talk in turn, do all our work and listen and pay attention all the time. You *need* these skills that we are learning.”
I can’t tell you how many times I have had a parent tell me that their kid can’t or won’t behave in a certain way “I can’t get them to…” They won’t…” only to be able to tell them that in my class they do it. I know that it is hard, but as someone who re-directs behavior daily for 8 hours a day, for pretty much 25-40 kids a day, if you don’t stick with the high expecations kids will walk all over your. It is their nature. They are kids.
No 20 year old should be in the house, if they are not 1) cleaning after themselves, 2) paying some type of rent, even a bit, 3) being respectful to all household rules 4) paying for their own things to some degree ( cell phone, food etc). I moved out at 17 in 84. We had a recession. I did not have a degree. I was still able to pay rent, eat my own food, and in general take care of myself on two crap jobs…what is so different now? Recession, check. Low level jobs…beleive me they are out there. They can get deferrment on their students loans and if they have other bills they need to figure out that; if you are giving them a free space to live in, they need to be figuring out the rest.
Low expectations for a child is basically showing them that you don’t expect that they can rise to a reasonable level of behavior; why let your kids think that, right:)?
Miskwa,
“the kindest thing you could do is force him out on his own, no matter how much you love him. otherwise he will have zero living/coping skills and will be a serious problem for every female he gets involved with”
Thanks for the tough love I undoubtedly need to hear.
I know you are right about this. I know I need to push him out of the nest so he can use his own wings. But it’s so hard when they are hanging on in a tug of war battle looking at you like you are pushing them of the Empire State Building. It makes me remember a dream I had of him where he fell off a building. I ran over to grab him and almost reached his hand but just missed it and looked at his face looking back at me as he fell in slow motion. I’ve had more than one of these falling dreams about him.
I appreciate your view as a teacher. I’m sure you’ve seen it a lot. Curious, do you see it more with sons or daughters?
On a good note, at least in the romantic arena I have learned to use more boundaries. I don’t want to settle either. I did that my whole life with men and eventually settled after my pretzel postures proved useless. No more. I would rather be alone than tormented. I would also rather be alone than minimize myself to get along with someone I don’t find good enough. I won’t let them minimize me either by telling me I’m too picky. I was told recently by a man that me having expectations was wrong. HuH? Probably because he didn’t measure up to them. ( I discovered he does cocaine on a regular basis and I said I was not interested in dating someone who does drugs.)
Selkie: Waaay more with sons than daughters. Ironically another colleague told me I am unrealistic for having expectations. This dude has serious mysogynistic tendencies and is seriously into casual sex. I dont minimize myself either. I worked too bleeping hard on my education to dumb down for anyone.
Runner with all due respect to you & yr parenting, the current generation of young adults are one of THE most over entitled spoiled brats to come through yet so I wouldnt beat yrself up for not being a perfect parent. no parent is. notwithstanding those who abuse their kids, (which is a different issue), I am sick to death of hearing young adult kids blaming their parents for all & sundry. we have a generation who think they are entitled to awards & recognition just for PARTICIPATING in things no matter that their actual performance may have been quite mediocre! parents have had gurus telling them to reward their children for merely breathing to build their oh so fragile self esteem. it’s rediculous! these kids need to get out in the real world & wake up!
I have a 26 yo son who wont talk to me atm, after I endured years of emotional abuse from him, so I could hang in there long enough to get him into rehab for his marijuana use. he will be 2 years clean & sober in 2 mths time. I paid all expenses for his private health cover & extra to send him to THE BEST private rehab centre in the state. who got him onto the marijuana in the 1st place? HIS FATHER who I split from before he was even born!! I have drug & alcohol free the vast majority of my sons life. he has NEVER seen his mother drink, or smoke dope – zippo, nada NOTHING. YET b.c there are some unpleasant issues for him to come to grips with around the truth about his father, a TRUTH I have ALWAYS been HONEST with him about from when he started asking questions as a young teen, I am the devil incarnate to this child. it is outrageous. he hasnt even done the simple math to work out his father is a PEADOPHILE & his mother his child victim. Nope. This kid is the most ungrateful sonofabitch you could ever have the displeasure of meeting, who continues to inflict deep emotional pain upon me!
After YEARS of this I have FINALLY WALKED AWAY . Yup. Just decided to leave him to his incredible cruelty & to start my life over as if I dont have a son. for the sake of my sanity I have no other choice.
every decision I ever made in my life after that child was.born, was made to put interests ahead of mine. I had my shot at a record deal with a major international label, my DREAM & I turned it down, so I could keep being a mum to my little.boy. I have seated my ass off, 2 jobs, 7 days a week to buy a home for us so WE would never be homeless. he THINKS he will be inheriting my assets when im gone but he’s in for a very rude awakening. I havent told him this but he will get a small amount enabling him to put a deposit on flat for himself & the BULK of my estate will be used to establish a charity to pay for scolarships for kids in state care to go to university (i have already set this in motion).
do u think my son has bothered with any sort of tertiary edctn or even a trade even though he is 26? nope! he’s sitting back, assing about with girls in his 12 step recovery circles thinking he will inherit all he needs. hell to the N.O; aint gunna happen!
these kids need to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN LIVES & realise parents really DID do their best. moreover, those that treat their parents like shit in LIFE can hardly expect to inherit all the parental assets in death.
I know yr daughter is very different but the lesson is the same. no parent mollycoddled my ass to get me off to college or loaned me a car; hell I didnt even get a HOME or 3 square meals from the age of 3 yo onward! And you know what, doing it all for myself has MADE ME WHO I AM TODAY, & that has turned out just FINE.
all the best with yr daughter. im sure she will learn & one day realise how fortunate she is to have such a loving parent.
Teachable
I have to respectfully differ with you on this. I was born in 1964 which makes me one of the last of the baby boomers. I received; free tertiary education education. And the state supported me with a full grant while I studied. Free post grad professional training year. Ditto. A professional job I could walk into when I graduated (debt free). Housing I could afford to buy for on my salary. None of these things is available to young people now. We used up the free education, and the cheap housing, and I feel there is inter-generational inequality. My children are young yet. I left home when I was 17 and pretty much never went back; it was easier to do that then. Not so much now.
Gah so many typos!
I should say that doesn’t mean that excuses and enabling are okay, they are not, but it does seem harder for young people now than it was for my generation and there is the added presure that the “haves” seem to have so much more than they used to. I worry so much about what the future holds for my kids and how I/we/they will pay for their education and what awaits them at the end of it. My profession used to be very secure and easy to find a job in, now there are many high quality graduates unable to find work. Where I work we recently recruited a newly qualified and a trainee, and there were hundreds of applicants for each post 🙁
Teachable, I have to agree with Mymble that the youth of today, far from being entitled spoiled brats are feeling the impact of the selfishness of the baby boomers and gen X. Youth unemployment in Spain, for example, is currently running in excess of 50%. Uni tuition fees in the UK have been hiked to help with the austerity program required as a result of the greed of the bankers and business people of gen x and baby boomers.
I think there is this (faulty) thinking that each generation believes the next generation has it so easy. IMHO each generation has different challenges.
I believe it is natural as a parent to ruminate on what you sacrificed in terms of your own life by having kids. Who, in their right mind, would apply for a job that required you to be on call 24/7 for years and which didn’t pay a salary, but asked you to pay the employer?!! However, I don’t believe it’s right to resent our kids for those sacrifices or to expect anything of them. They did not ask to be brought into the world. All we can ask of our kids is that they respect our boundaries. Likewise we have to respect theirs. That means if they choose to be a bum, that is their choice. It doesn’t mean we have to like it, or enable (or facilitate) it, but we just have to accept it. As Kahlil Gibran says on having kids “You may give them your love, but not your thoughts. For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies, but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.”
Thank you Teachable. I am really sorry to hear about your son. It must be heart wrenching to watch him experience so much grief at such a young age. It’s wonderful he will be 2 years sober soon. I haven’t had the same experience with regards to drugs/rehab with my daughter. Drugs did play a role in her decision to return home and discontinue her education back east. Apparently, she was dealing with an addicted bf (unbeknownst to me, of course). She set boundaries with him and ended it after 3 attempts of getting sober (unbeknownst to me of course). She immediately enrolled in school full-time, either that or work full-time, and is struggling because she needs to be at a university, not a community college. She has applied everywhere and now is awaiting the results. That’s why I keep hanging in there. One of her Shakespeare profs at the uni described her as “scary smart”, which she is. Slowly but surely, I can see progress with her taking responsibility for her life, some days moreso than others.
BTW, with regards to the allowance, I’ve been deducting her extra-expenses and she’s down to less than she received when she was 16. I’ve been holding on to the money boundary and she’s been looking for work. The last two jobs just didn’t work out. Actually, I counseled her to quit a job at a tanning salon when the supervisor told her she couldn’t go to school and would have to be available for all shifts for minimum wage. WFT? There were plenty of shifts available around her classes. So, she’s back in the job market hoping for an employer who will allow her to go to school. Back in my day, employers of minimum wage establishments worked around our school schedules. Although, I had to quit several “lucrative” minimum wage jobs who wouldn’t accommodate a student. So, I’m hanging in there, staying out of her business, while providing the basic room and board necessities and providing emotional support and as much guidance as she will accept. She’s in a border-line FBG situation which is causing her tremendous sadness. So every day is a learning opportunity. I hope for the best for you and your son.
Oh & BTW, I DID kick my son out, earlier in the piece, aged 19 yo after one too many episodes of disrespect (as in he then went to his dad’s who I would add I did not know was using marijuana as he didn’t when I was involved with him. tht info came out later).
Enduring my son’s BS at the time (this was before he started the marijuana) was EXCRUIATING. I was working my guts out the time, desperately saving the deposit for out home while renting & he jacked up about paying board. After that, in addition to a fist through a wall (hello, we lived with the OWNER!), breaking my things & not giving a shit, emotional & communication stonewalling, as well as treating me like a slave (behaviour learned from his paternal g.mother, who slaves away after his father & uncles. she is ethnic & it’s in their culture) as well as trying & failing to resolve things through a family mediation service, one day I FINALLY cracked. It was SUCH A RELIEF when he moved out. He’s never forgiven me but I don’t give a rats. I WILL NOT endure ABUSE in my own home FROM ANYONE.
One day my son will have kids of his own & we will see how much better HE does. Given he has no edctn or vocational training if he doesnt wake up to himself he & his own family look set to STRUGGLE in POVERTY & fare much worse! Very sad. But hey, what would #I# know about that? I’d hate that to happen of course, but he will be leaving his long term rehab soon so it’s only a matter of time until the REAL WORLD kicks in & he realises what a GIFT I have offered him (free housing while he completes vocational training or edctn – so long as he pays for his share of food & bills; ie we don’t send ppl away to college here. its easily accessible from home).
Give it another couple of years. Some ACTUAL hard knocks will shave the edge off that self righteous arrogance in no time! 😉
Selkie… My son sent a text out of the blue yesterday telling me he loved me. I called him to make sure he wasn’t suicidal. Lol! I thanked him for the chores he had done and he said I kind of had to. I explained that that wasn’t the point, we were family and we do what we see needs doing and we appreciate each other! But he has improved. Less manipulation and bull shit, he doesn’t guilt me anymore. I definitely overcompensated for his father. We did the best we could for what we knew then. There is just such a feeling of responsibility when you think you’ve “ruined” your kid. But the great thing is, they get to see us make changes, and maybe they will pick up some ideas from us along the way. My kids have always been quicker learners than me anyhow.
Lo j,
How sweet and thoughtful of your son to show he cares. Bet that made your day!
In my opinion, when it comes to family, you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. So you may as well do what’s best for you. Blood isn’t always thicker than water, and one can create one’s own family with other boundary-respecting individuals.
Okay, Natalie. Here comes my proper comment(post-Sexual Chocolate distraction).
It’s so gratifying reading your posts, because you call bullshit on shady situations so eloquently. Truth be told, I actually have a lovely family. They’re a bunch of nuts, but they’re loveable nuts. And though I’ve had a few boundary busting episodes with ma familia, I mainly learned “boundary” lessons from friends. I was once the grandmother of all people pleasers to them. And what you said about people still disapproving of and speaking ill of you even AFTER you’ve wound yourself into a pretzel trying to please them is SO true!
I think that’s one of the most important lessons I’ve learned in life thusfar: people (not just family, but people in general) are gonna talk. So you might as well give them something juicy to talk about, and just be your damn self. It actually cracks me up sometimes when I hear stories about what I’ve supposedly been doing or secretly *thinking* (wow, how the hell could they know that?!) because they are so freakin’ off base. I mean, what next? I’m adopting a Haitian baby like Angelina Freakin’ Jolie? Sheesh. As IF my life was that interesting!
I think that sometimes the same people who push your boundaries are PISSED when you have the *nerve* to not kow-tow to them. And that disproportional response to you setting healthy, reasonable boundaries for *YOUR LIFE* (you know, the realm in which you SHOULD reign as an adult) is the reddest flag there is that this person is Bad News Bears. If they don’t straighten up and fly right, like Natalie said, you’re better off living your life “torment-free” without them. It’s like we tell children: “Go to your room and think about what you’ve done, and don’t come out until you can act better.”
Ha! I knew I had a good quote about boundaries! This is from an article that I copied to my computer, called “The Need for Boundaries.” Argh, I should have a source, but I don’t, sorry.
“Boundaries protect you from the control of others. You are president of your life and boundaries will protect you from people who want to impeach you. They will also make it difficult for manipulators to control you because you will recognize a threat to your ownership.”
Whoah. Like whoah. No is a very dirty word in my family. I have a family of addicts. Nobody knows how to manipulate and use better than addicts. I’m not so afraid of them anymore. An addict is weak, hence why they need a steady supply of whatever it is to not face reality. They can be mean, scary and violent. But nothing sends them reeling like a vampire retreating from the cross like a healthy dose of truth.
My super shady charactered herion addict cousin said to me repeatedly, “Family is the most important thing.” He most likely scurried off to hit up our eighty-nine-year-old grandfather for another twenty as soon as the words left his lips.
And to imagine the lunacy of my also heroin addicted brother who boasts, “Yeah, she always had my back” of our enabling aunt.
Family is not the most important thing. Self preservation is the most important thing in our day to day lives.
Giving into requests of sick family can quite literally kill us. (My father used to drunkenly drive me when I was a child and still has the nerve to expect me to travel with him nonetheless talk to him.)
Letting this man, though he is my father, into my life is a detriment to my health and well being. So he’s out. End of. He can choose to live however he pleases, I could care less. But I WILL NOT allow myself to be used by drug addicted men or family. I will choose me and walk away every time.
The under belly of addiction is horrid. I suggest all self respecting woman run from the following:
a) illegal drug use
b) men and people in general who abuse drugs.
It’s a very, very sick soul sucking existence.
Selkie,
You cannot desert a 26 year-old-man. Your son is using you and you are letting him. You both deserve a better, healthier existence. Selkie, he is not a kid. In a few years he will be thirty. Whatever happens to your son due to his own irresponsibility is on HIM not you. You’ve done your part in raising him. It’s time for him to take care of himself and you to take care of yourself.
This is a tough one for me. My father just left after spending a month here (he lives abroad and came to visit) and I still haven´t recovered. And he didn´t even stay at my place so it shouldn´t have been that invasive, but it was.
His personality is sufficiently complex to stress me out completely. He´s an active narc, meddlesome, bad tempered and sarcastic.
I don´t know why but he has a key of my house and doesn´t bother to ring or knock when he comes over (always unannounced). So he basically spent every afternoon sitting on my couch, sometimes reading a book (the one he found on my bedside table) or making my daughter anxious joking that he´d take our cat home with him. When we sat down together for tea, he would bore me with anecdotes of his partner´s family and how wonderful her granddaughter is.
This time there weren´t major conflicts because I managed not to get emotionally involved but he did drain me. And I ended up feeling guilty for not enjoying his company.
I´d love to tell him not to bother to come over because I feel so much happier when he´s far away, but how on earth could I do that?
I did attempt to take away his key but he made me feel guily about it when he asked if he could have it back.
Natasha,
Wow, I had such an outright laugh at the ridiculousness of your sister. Would she have prefered you wear a onsie to the beach?!!! What nutty behavior on her part.
It really is pretty funny to have drama over someone else’s bikini, I agree Peanut! I think my father summed it up best when he said, “Ignore her and devote that energy to pitying your brother in law.” Perhaps I need one of those woolen bathing costumes from the 1920’s?! 🙂
Mittens,
I have dealt with inappropriate touching from a female source in my family as well. It is horrendous. I felt like I was in this murky area of is this wrong or am I overreacting. It was so gut wrenchingly confusing. My gut was right. I was not overreacting. I needed to speak up. I finally did even though it wasn’t until I was in my twenties.
hi mymble
I dont disagree that edctn is now very costly & tht housing is becoming unaffordable. They are external factors & not what I was referring to however. I was referring to kids sense of entitlement of large reward for little work, or expecting to walk straight into well paying or senior roles b.c lesser ones are considered ‘beneath them’, of expecting praise for underwhelming performance as the culture of praising mere participation has pumped up their over inflated egos beyond belief. Of expecting all the latest gadgets & brands whilst STILL KIDS for goodness sakes even though mum \ dad clearly cant afford these things.
Numerous psychological studies provide supporting evidence for what I’m saying so I’m not just making this up. I stand by my assertion. The latest generation of young adults are THE most over entitled to come through yet.
I agree with you Teach. I am actually gobsmacked at the assorted stories here about twentysomething ADULTS behaving like children. Twentysomething adults who expect and receive allowances for crying out loud!!!???
My eldest turns 16 soon and had the temerity to TELL me that I would have to increase her allowance so she could buy more clothes for college. I had no compunction in telling her that in fact I would be CEASING her allowance as she is now old enough to get a Saturday job and pay for her own shit.
I do not know if this is a cultural thing? Maybe employment law is different in the US? I live in a very affluent area of the UK. I don’t know anyone whose 16+ year old doesn’t work. They work in cafes, cinemas, theatres, hairdressers, shops, call centres, stables etc etc. The sense of entitlement is overwhelming but there is no way I am working three jobs to support her while she sits on her laptop when she could be earning her own money.
Teachable
I am not comfortable with generalising about any group of people. If you change the words “the latest generation of young people” to “black Americans”, “homosexuals” or “women”, it wouldn’t sound too cool. It’s lazy thinking to characterise people by superficial qualities like age, race, gender or sexuality and does a massive disservcice to many fine young adults.
I remember reading somewhere that they have found texts from Roman times complaining about how lazy and spoilt their young people were. It is a perennial complaint.
Lilia,
Change your locks. It’s your home. Not his. People can only guilt you as much as you allow.
Runnergirl,
Well done! Setting boundaries is best for your children. I didn’t have parents for the most part and when I lived with my father he was really addicted and gone most of the time and my mom committed suicide when I was twelve.
My grandparents sort of stepped in when I was in high school and my dad went to rehab and I had nowhere to go and went to them to ask if I could move in.
Since, they have found it near impossible to tell me no. I have severe mental and emotional disturbances and was very heavy on self mutilation. (I got a lot of help for the ladder and am doing much better). And have been in therapy for years. And I must say paying for my own treatment has really helped me get more out if it.
I did make it through college (my grandparents paid for every penny bless their heart) and have maintained three years solid, consistent employment utilizing my degree in non profit.
That said after college I was depressed and unemployed for a year. It took some very tough love from an aunt to spur me out of my over dependent rut. My grandparents would rather see an apocalypse than tell me no. It’s understandable. My grandfather was pretty close to my mother before she committed suicide and his younger brother also committed suicide I think after his brother’s wife died. They’re terrified of losing me in that way.
Three years ago my aunt said, “You have two weeks to find full time employment. My parents can’t support you anymore. And they truthfully aren’t able to.” I cried and cried to her and it was all kinds of a scene.
In less than two weeks I had near full time employment with benefits when I had been ‘looking’ for work for near a year. What she did was one of the best things anyone has done for me.
I currently live with my grandparents and help care for a dog we share joint ownership of and just love. I work full time and am working toward my masters. I’m 28 and though I’m mostly self sufficient, I still struggle with managing my money, responsibility and not having my grandparents bail me out. Now I’m learning how to apply tough love to myself 😉
My father was the first EUM in my life. He continued that way until I reached my late 30s and then he changed. I now consider him a really good friend and a great support. This was only made possible because *he* made the decision to change and step up to the plate. And he only made that choice because things had become quite uncomfortable in his own life. (What do they say about growing through pain?!).. So, I totally agree, Natalie, you have to have boundaries with family. They are sometimes the most difficult boundaries to enforce, but we do ourselves and our families a disservice by not enforcing them. I often think of my dad, if I feel like I’m heading back into being Florence. People can’t be fixed (whatever we do), they can only fix themselves.
Sadder: I have been trying to maintain NC but yep, a confrontation may be necessary. Since we were involved nearly two years ago, a sexual harassment charge probably is not gonna hold water. Our boy is in deep doodoo at work; I am hoping that he implodes under his own power and is gone come next fall. Our boy is a narc so even negative attention is attention to him, but yeah, I am not gonna stand for behavior that is both inappropriate and also not consistent with his actual attitude toward me. It may be a deliberate act to remind me that I am still alone and lonely whereas he is not. Overall, am trying to avoid him. On the subject of the “millenial” generation, I must agree with Teach; this generation does think it is entitled for merely showing up. Yeah, I understand that jobs are fewer and tuition is higher but that means you find some sort of job or jobs plus financial aid to get through. Then you keep doing without till the loans are paid off. No ipads, iphones, laptops, social networking, parties, spring breaks, new clothes, nice cars, any luxuries till everything is paid off. I was born in 1960, in the US. I bailed out of the family at 17, taking a 13 year old brother with me. Got a job in a nursing home to support us and pay for my education. Learned to chop wood, burn wood, often went hungry or ate unwanted food off of patients trays so bro could eat. No socialization, no parties, no spring break, wore used clothes, learned to garden, no electronic gizmos, expensive stereo, or cable TV. Maybe I am a hard hearted old bitch but I have zero sympathy for this current generation and really fear for their ability to function as independent adults. I have often spoken to my non trad students, the peers of these kids, they have no sympathy for them either. The school of hard knocks is a great teacher.
I am in agreement with most of what you just said! I will add this though, as someone who has always relied on herself I developed a shell and it became hard to crack. I have started learning to accept support from loved ones and realising that you do need to make yourself vulnerable to build things with people.
Also, this generation has been taught the value of reaching potential, falling dreams? but now this message will probably disperse with the next generation – due to the economy.
It is always sad to meet someone who has been a bin man for all his life and has a steady family but h secretly wanted to be a marine biologist and she never pursued it due to his values.
DQ, BEAUTIFUL!!!!!! That is absolutely the truth. I read an article that said those words almost verbatim and I quite frequently reassure my oldest of this. Unfortunately, wasn’t taught this and couldn’t pass it on to him as he was growing up so he and I have some catching up to do. My youngest and I have it going on. Thank goodness. (plus he has a different personality and has had less trauma in his childhood.) Thank you so much for sharing!! Wise and positive words.
I have always had a difficult relationship with mum. A summary of my life and her is this – I went into care at 7 years old. After my parents relationship broke down because my dad got arrested for indecent exposure. There was also domestic violence from my dad and aggression and depression from my mum (particularly at positions in authority). After 2 years my dad got full custody despite being a registered sex offender. My mum lost all visitation. She got it back and when I was 11 I started visiting her. She was angry and bitter about losing me and it ‘destroyed’ her life. It was VERY hard to handle. Especially as a teenager who wanted answers. I was forever stuck in the middle between parents who don’t communicate.
After university I asked her if i could go live with her for a bit to save money and she replied: If I live with her then I have to cut all ties with my dad. I was also made to feel guilty because I informed her about my dads continuing indecent exposure behaviour and she said I am guilty because I never called the police.
Whenever I am with her she finds a way to put me down especially in front of other people. She is manipulative, demanding, plays the victim and angry. Although the anger has subsided over the years.
Flash forward to now (that was in 2008). After realising that she isn’t capable for providing parental support agenda free – I kept her at arms length, mostly. I have a relationship with my godfather and his daughters. She has tried to damage this relationship because she is jealous. Even though he is her friend. She started expressing distort in him and how they are not close anymore. She started a dislike for his elder daughter because of a comment she made when she was 8 years old. She is now 14. She made a big fuss when she found out i was at their house by saying ‘you have time to go see them but you don’t come and see me your own mother’. I straight up told her that our relationship has to be built slowly and that i limit our time together, due to arguments and said thats the real, truth. Stop trying to make me feel guilty. I ended the conversation and she pursued me for ages. She then turned on my godfather and destroyed their friendship. I said good bye. I sent her an email explaining i think its best to be in NC for a year at least. To be reviewed at a later date. She seemed to accept it.
Peanut … Thanks for sharing your story. It’s amazing the confidence we gain when we go out on our own. As a young adult in my early 20s, crazy as this seems, I was working 3 jobs, living with my parents, and I wanted to live on my own. They would say, “there is no way you can” and convince me I could not survive in the world. Then when I got pregnant, I was out on my ear … Minimal life skills with the responsibility of me and a baby. Lol! I learned pretty fast. Best thing my parents did for me. It wasn’t pretty, and as I said before, now that I’ve recently learned about boundaries, with love and respect, I would like for the transition with my son to be smoother.
And Peanut… You saw all views, your grandparents, how compassionate of you, and you appreciate your aunts tough love. And it was with love. Thanks so for sharing your story. I’m sorry you had to go through so much but how strong and compassionate you are now!
DQ … You should just wear garlic around your neck so they can’t suck the life out of you … and when someone says they will pray for you, make devil horns like Elaine on Seinfeld. 😉
Eloise,
I gave much thought to your post. I still believe my view stands however (in my opinion). I was not referring to govt ineptitude, entrenched corruption by mafia type criminal gangs eroding the social fabric over many generations or the failure of regulatory bodies to ensure appropriate measures are in place to stimulate jobs & economies. Those things are the domains of politics & in particular capitolism.
I was referring to personality traits of the emerging generation. Mymble on this for the purposes of social research like it not we DO need to categorise groups to collate data on different population samples including those of different ethnicities, socio economic status, & age (ie generations) etc. This does not mean that trends in populations hold for all individuals in
those grounds. It does allow for general conclusions about many things to be drawn however which is critical for knowing where best to spend tax payer dollars to improve the overall health & wellbeing or productivity of a nation for example.
I get it Kelly. I perhaps see this particular issue with a little less clouding my vision than others as I truely did achieve everything in my life with ZERO help from ANYONE in my family. Even so, I understand that the student allowance our govt pays young adults who are studying is impossible to survive on, in private rental accomm, even in the cheapest of housing options. I think the govt expectation is that students work part time to suppliment their income & the govt payment makes some allowance for this. I ALSO know that the more hours of paid employment a student does, generally, the lower their grades tend to be. That’s not rocket science. A student (I’m talking college/uni level) with more TIME to concentrate on their studies is bound to show better results. This is WHY I SLAVED MY GUTS OUT the past decade plus to buy this house for my Son (& myself) so that he would be able to have free housing, with me supporting him in that sense at least, while he completed some sort of edctn or vocational training to give him a good start to life. The kind which I never had. I will never tell him this but ultimately the stress of striving to complete my own edctn, as well as working in a high level career to afford it all at the same time, ultimately cost me my health, leaving me now not knowing what the future holds.
I was absolutely heartbroken when I was forced due to his abusive behaviour to have no choice left but to kick my son out of home earlier on in the piece. I had tried getting professional help for him/us before that, trying desperately to ward off the inevitable, but that failed.
My door will ALWAYS be open to my son. He is my world & I love him more than life itself. The boundary has been drawn loud n clear though. Mum here will no longer tolerate his abuse, most especially, not in my own home. If he can learn to treat me with kindness, decency & RESPECT I would take him back in a heartbeat (& change my will to reflect more generosity toward him).
I reached out for support this weekend to my TRUE friends & it FLOODED in. One sat with me sat arvo talking through some of this stuff with my son for a few hours. She has similar probs with one of her daughters (like my son, also has drug issues, very abusive to her & she in her case, has written that daughter totally out of her will). It was an incredible relief to talk to another parent in a very similar position. I realised as per Nat’s next post, I really am NOT unique or alone.
And Kelly the stand you are taking with your 16 yo daughter NOW will teach her one of the most important lessons of her entire life. It that of taking responsibility for herself. If you don’t teach her this while she is maturing into an adult she will grow up expecting OTHERS, like maybe some ASSHAT AC to take responsibility FOR her later on down the track. She will hate you now but thank you later. Be strong &.stay the course. Good luck. x
NK I was very moved when I read your story & I’m happy for you that you’ve found a way of getting some breathing space from yr mum. That side of things you’ve handled so well, so good for you.
I was saddened too in trying to read between the lines. I found myself curious as to why your mum felt such an injustice occurred when your father got full custody of you &.her visitation was stopped. You mention your dad was violent to your mum but that your mum had.agression & depression issues. I know it can.be very hard to unscamble the eggs.
I wondered was yr Mums agression perhaps triggered by the desperation of her situation? Any mother watching herself lose a daughter to a registed sex offender would be ropable. And they’d be ropable before hand too on discovery of the offending behaviours. The depression of course is to be expected for all women in DV relationships.
I only mention this as I worked for a DV service for some years & this may not have happened in yr case, but I can say you would be absolutely horrified at how many times the Family Court gets things wrong in these cases. I wonder if that is why your Mother has been angry all these years, including with ppl she perceives as not understanding what from her point of view might have been a terrible injustice?
This may not apply but it’s something to think about in your time of seperation. One day if you are able to understand things from how she saw it, & experienced it, it may help you to know your mother as a person a little better (& some people do this work in family therapy which can be helpful if the parties are willing to go down that track to find healing).
I was relinquished at age 3 yo & would give anything to have the chance to do family therapy with my mother. Sadly she is not willing. Maybe yours will be one day. Sending you lots of love & healing. Some of the things your Mum has said were way out of line. It is not your fault your Dad is a registered sex offender & that he re-offended. Sex offenders usually are recidivists. Stay strong. Hugs. T x
Thanks Lo J,
It’s been a tough ride and I do think it is just fine to help, but as with everything there is a balance and balancing anything can be quite a struggle when it’s gotten so out of whack.
ps I ought to have said & MEANT sex offenders tend to be recidivists (caught or not) rather than they usually are
It’s interesting Miskwa that two of us who were entirely self supporting to access edctn ect & through this slowly but surely built a better lives both view the generation coming through now this way. IMO you are bang on. I not only went without all the same things you mention (including thrift shop clothes, & food for me from charities) but I also made do without even a TELEPHONE for quite some years whilst studying. I relied on access to a public one in a hallway of the housing complex where I lived instead. If people wanted to call me they had to HOPE someone heard the public phone ringing & took a message down with chalk on a blackboard set up for that purpose! It once took MANY MONTHS for me to learn I’d won a much coveted guitar in a competition due to this complication. I was SO grateful the organisers didn’t give up & just give it to someone else instead! I was dirt poor at the time & desperately NEEDED that guitar. I bawled my eyes out when it finally arrived! In fact I also HAND WROTE all of my assignments for the 1st THREE YEARS of my studies as I simply could not AFFORD a computer, nor the training to learn how to use one! So for all those first few years everything was longhand, while my classmates zipped along with luxuries I could only dream of. Moreover, in addition to battling sheer poverty I had to contend with the gap in my education caused by being initially forced to leave school at 15 to get a job as my only way of legitimately escaping the child protection system I’d.been raised in. Yep. So off I went, feeling like a COMPLETE DUMMY to remedial ‘return to study’ assistance classes to learn simple skills, like how to structure an essay, or write a report, or reference things properly. Although my grades were good I stuck with those remedial special help classes for TWO YEARS & to this day will STILL avail myself of any extra academic help I can get with difficult subjects, if it is on offer. This is now moreso b.c I am a pedant but whatev. Point being, mummy & daddy weren’t NEEDED here for me to eventually find my groove in life & eventually start to shine. I knew it was ALL UP TO ME. Young adults with an overblown sense of entitlement might do well in life to not only HAVE parental support but to also take responsibility for THEMSELVES by realising that when it comes down to it, this applies to them too!
Love that quote on boundaries Rev. It adds to Nat’s post which was great too really well. Thanks for sharing it 🙂
I took another step on this topic today. Recently my mother re-initiated contact. She called the first time from my sister’s place. My sister (who has un unhealthy emeshed r.ship w my mother) interferred with the call by both cutting it short & then making comments about it afterward (note, the call had ZERO to do with my sister, who I don’t get along with due to her manipulativeness).
After the second call from my sisters home I told my mother please not to call me from there, due to the interferrance from my sister, in my r.ship with my mother. My mother agreed & called me a third time, on this occassion from the care facility where she lives (the details of which due to BOTH my mother’s AND sister’s manipulative games, I am not allowed to know. Of note, I have done NOTHING to warrent this, & in fact over the years spent thousands supporting my mother to continue living independently before she went into care – orchestrated by my sister I would add – so they can live near ea other).
Hearing I am not well, my mother AGAIN calls, this time, you guessed it, FROM MY SISTER’S. I state I am ill, re-iterate I have asked her.not to call from my sister’s & AGAIN explain why, don’t talk long & quickly excuse myself from the call. Her or my sister’s BS is the LAST thing I need to be dealing with right now. My mother makes a big fuss saying how much she ‘loves me’ before hanging up. I got off the phone & decided THAT’S IT. This is BS & I’m CALLING IT.
So, I briefly call my mother back at my sisters. I tell her that her behaviour is TOTALLY INCONSISTANT & DEEPLY HURTFUL. I explain that I have been nothing but a kind & loving daughter for my entire adult life, that I have never done A SINGLE HURFTFUL THING to her & in fact quite the OPPOSITE & that her not allowing me to have her PHONE NUMBER even for QUITE SOME YEARS is TOTALLY INCONSISTANT with her gums flapping that she loves me. I stated I found her behaviour to be.DEEPLY HURTFUL & MANIPULATIVE & that I would no longer TOLERATE IT.
She now knows if she wishes to have any contact with me then she will need to do so as in independent person & give me her.number so I can call her back.
I will not be missing anything if I don’t hear from her however. It saddens me DEEPLY to say this but the woman is frankly abusive & a total waste of space (as far as I can tell). By all means I would LOVE her to prove me wrong!
PS Although I feel obviously quite angry about this (read I SPENT THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS OF MY HARD EARNED CASH SUPPORTING THIS WOMAN IN HER TIME OF NEED only to be TOTALLY ABANDONED & NEGLECTED, & ABUSED in MINE) deep down, I feel very sad. I would rather she be dead than have to endure the hell she has put me through my entire life. I am not an unkind person, but THAT is how far her abuse has pushed me ie just waiting for her to DIE (hopefully painlessly, ie I am not cruel) so I can FINALLY be at peace. Ugh.
I am pleased but also sad to report taking ANOTHER step on this this topic last night.
After an on/off r.ship with my (toxic) sister spanning many years, I have ended my relationship with her PERMANENTLY. This was triggered by her inappropriate behaviour, which I at first tried to talk through with her, followed by 2 mths of silent treatment from her after she rudely hung up on me as she refused to take reponsibility for her behaviour, then an attempt to manipulate the situation by suggesting I was the problem. In addition she had done all of this at a time when I am very ill. I suddenly realised she will NEVER change & I was literally wasting my time, breath & energy with her. It was just like with an AC, who repeatedly hurts us, but then denies doing so & blames us. I thought, what the hell am I am *I* doing, sticking around for this CRAP? Why? Because she is my SISTER? That makes it even WORSE!
She tried the ‘none of my friends say I’m like that’ line to which I replied that’s b.c they don’t know you like I do. She then stated how kind & loving they all said she was. Great I said! Even WORSE as this means you have control over yr behaviour & single me out for it! YUCK!
I gave her a couple of very concrete clear cut examples which blind freddy could not deny (silence at that one, funny that) & told her, that’s it, I’m done. NO MORE OR EVER AGAIN WILL MY DOOR BE OPEN TO HER.
I note that she is in fact only a half sister (on the maternal side).& that this is the side which carries all of the mental illness in my family. And yep, you guessed it! BOTH my mother AND sister have psychiatric histories, including psychiatric hospitalisations, ECT (shock) treatment, etc. I on the other hand have never had any such thing. I think in hindsight my sister shares some of my mothers borderline traits.
I am sad but RELIEVED. My sister is plain NASTY, just like my mother but also very DEVIOUS. Ugh. I should have NEVER allowed this time of illness to weaken my resolve & drop.my guard by opening the door to either of them in the first place. They were the LAST thing I needed & almost pushed me over the edge. THAT will NOT be happening, esp not due to.maltreatment at the hands of toxic family members.
Glad to get this sorted! Thankyou NML & everyone @ BR!!!
Sounds like you’ve found the balance Runner so well done. Not easy I know. Your daughter will learn from her mistakes re driving unlicensed & being a FBG. These things you can only be of help to her on when she comes to you seeking assistance. (Although it did cross my mind that if she’s living under yr roof you could take her car keys. I’m not sure about that though, if she owns the car & paid for it herself?)
Re My son, yes a very sad & difficult situation. Sometimes I have hope, & recall the times he has cried his eyes out, as a grown young man, telling me I’ve been the best mother he could have ever hoped to have (a rare moment of vulnerability & honesty where he cut the BS). Other times I despair, wondering if he will be brave enough to stop demonising his mother & face facts re the horrible circumstances surrounding his coming into the world.
When I pass away of course it will all be so very clear as I have piles of paper work which will shock him to the core. He will realise what his mother was trying to tell him all along (minus too much gruesome detail in an effort to spare him), was not only all true but far worse, than he could ever have imagined. His entire view of his father will be turned upside down on it’s head. He will see who was lying to him & who was telling the truth all along. For me though, by then of course it will be too late.
My son was my only real family. I do hope he eventually comes to his senses. I need a miracle & so does he. Maybe there can be such a thing?
I was so glad to read your post and feel validated! I’ve had to set boundaries with family, which felt natural for me. I never bought into the “family expectations” thing. This started for me as a teenager when I mostly had to fend for myself due to family finances. So at an early age, I realized I had to take care of ME. So even though my family isn’t always thrilled with my boundaries, I make them for myself. I does help me live in peace.
It’s mazing how family tries to guilt us into be responsible to “the family” before our own needs. I wouldn’t do that to others, so I definitely don’t accept that into my life.
Thanks for validating that having boundaries are healthy–and not just a sign of someone being selfish.
You’re the best, Natalie!