Every day, people who are dating or in relationships where there’s unavailability or other issues, come up against hinting, you know indirectly or slightly indicating something. In essence, we receive feedback and signals from the actions and words of our partners that let’s us know what’s up…if we’re listening and watching.
You always know you’re up against hinting when:
– You’re making excuses for their behaviour or are even making excuses for their excuses.
– You make a lot of assumptions that you don’t sanity check and adjust accordingly.
– You deny, rationalise, and minimise which then means that hints become a blank canvas for your overactive imagination.
– Certain things have been said that you don’t like or want to believe, which you then spend copious amounts of time and energy analysing and ruminating over.
– You’ve decided that until they spell it out, loud and clear and even get a whole heap of nasty on you, that not only are you still in with a chance, but that you don’t fully believe what they’ve been ‘hinting’ at because they haven’t said it.
Hinting is a clue. Actions and words (or the lack of them) give a clue, as do certain situations. Where there’s one clue there are other clues, but the truth is, often just one clue alone is giving you vital information.
We used to love the British game show Catchphrase. Contestants were presented with a hidden image of a catchphrase and the computer would remove jigsaw like pieces one at a time, and they’d have to try and guess what the image said. The less pieces revealed, the more money you won. We’d be killing ourselves laughing when the host Roy Walker would get distinctly impatient when practically the whole image was there and they were still struggling. “Say what you see, say what you see!” he’d say tersely in his Northern Irish accent.
Well hinting in dating and relationships is very much like Catchphrase – the more clues you have to collect before you take the hint, the less of a relationship you have and the deeper you are into an unhealthy situation, either because they’re at best taking advantage of and at worst abusing you, or because by refusing to take the hints, you’ve ended up acting without self-love, care, trust, and respect towards yourself.
It’s your job as the person in charge of navigating your own life and setting and knowing your own boundaries, to be listening, watching, and acting upon those clues.
The most popular argument that people who won’t take the hint make, is that they believe that if someone for example wants to communicate “I don’t want a relationship” or “I’m not ready” or “I’m not interested” or “I’m not leaving my partner” or “I only want you for a shag, an ego stroke, or a shoulder to lean on”, that they should say this directly. Stop bullshitting yourself.
Putting it all on someone else to spell it out, is major avoidance of responsibility and accountability. You’re also saying that you don’t trust yourself to take the hint. When you’re dealing with someone who is either conflict avoidant and/or afraid of endangering a shag/ego stroke/shoulder to lean on/money/ or even a job, they’re going to hint.
Expecting a direct statement is like saying “I know they’ve not been calling, failing to show up, pissing me around, telling lies, and all sorts of Future Faking, but what if I have it wrong? Yeah I’ll just wait for them to tell me that they don’t want to be with me or that they’re not going to commit.”
What the frickin what now? They’re already showing you and possibly even telling you in their own airy, fairy rinky dink way that they don’t want to be with you and that they’re not going to commit!
When someone isn’t calling you, it’s a clue that…yeah, they’re not calling you, which means they’re not making the effort communication wise and are actually being disrespectful.
When someone only calls you when they want to hook up, it’s a clue that they only contact you to pave the way for a shag.
When someone doesn’t show up, unless they’re in a coma, it shows disrespect and disinterest.
When someone disappears, it is a clue that they’re a coward. If they try to come back and press the Reset Button, it’s a sign they’re manipulative coward.
When someone is married/attached and is trying to shag you or you’re already in an affair with them, it’s a clue that not only are they avoiding commitment, but that when they experience problems, whether it’s within themselves or their relationship, that they avoid them.
When they’re always drunk whenever you’re together or they’ve admitted that they have an addiction of some sort, or are clearly negatively impacted by their reliance on something, it’s a clue to get the hell out of dodge and that this person solves internal issues with external solutions.
When they’re telling you lies, it’s a clue that they’re dishonest.
When they’ve recently broken up with their ex, it’s a clue that they’re likely not over their ex which means you should be alert for subsequent clues.
When your partner hints that they’re gay or you even see them hitting on someone of the same sex or know that they’ve actually been sleeping with them, it’s a clue that you need to bounce unless you’re OK with this type of relationship. It shouldn’t take you having to find them literally having sex for you to take the hint!
When someone Future Fakes you and the future arrives without them making good on all of their grand talk, it’s a sign that this person is full of hot air. Instead of wondering what you did to scare away plans that were never going to happen, you should be taking the clue that that this person is all shirt no trousers.
When they’re being nasty, controlling, manipulative, abusive etc, it’s a clue that you’re in danger and need to exit, fast. You shouldn’t be waiting for them to put you in serious danger before you take them seriously.
When they act like a jackass to try to get you to finish it, it’s a clue that they want to end it, they just want you to do the dirty work. Either way, you have a relationship on your hands that needs to end.
When someone keeps breaking the relationship, it’s a clue that they don’t value you and that they also feel free to leave and return. Stop waiting for them to be nasty and say it’s definitively over – you end it!
When they say:
“I can’t give you what you want”
“I love you but I’m not in love with you.”
“I’m bad news.”
“I don’t want to hurt you.”
“I’m really busy.”
“I need more time.”
“What’s a nice girl like you doing with a guy like me?”
“I don’t have time for a relationship.”
“Let’s be friends.”
“You know my situation.”
“You deserve better.”
“I just want to keep it casual” and other such guff, it’s a clue that they’re unavailable for an available relationship and have commitment issues.
It’s important that you listen, watch, and process the clues in your relationship because what hinters do is give you what they feel is a heads up about who they really are. It may be what you perceive to be a ‘weak’ hint, but it’s a hint and lo and behold, when you get medieval on them about messing you around, they’ll remind you that they said “I’m not in a good place right now” or that surely with all of their dodgy behaviour, you should have ‘known’ that they weren’t committing or even decent kind.
Listen to the feedback from your relationship and take the hint so that you stop selling yourself short. Trust the hint, trust your judgement.
Your thoughts?
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OMG, Nat!!! I had to laugh a little at this post. You just described (too a “T”) my relationship with my EUM!!! Excuses, blinders, assumptions (even down to the “he would tell me if he didn’t want to commit, or didn’t want to be with me” comments); I did it ALL!!!!! However, when I finally had my “AHA moment,” you helped me work through all of those poor relationship habits and self -esteem (or lack thereof) issues that led me to spend 7 years of my life in emotionally abusive and unfulfilling relationships. Thanks so much!!!
We celebrated our first wedding anniversary in June. 🙂 Such a wonderfully boring, drama free life I have now.. It’s just deliciously dull!! LOL!!!!
RES
Great post! Guity as charged. More than one time!
I think hanging on for dear life until they actually say the words is fedinitely the ultimate in excuse making. I know I did this. I know it was just an excuse to hang on for dear life!
“When someone disappears, it is a clue that they’re a coward. If they try to come back and press the Reset Button, it’s a sign they’re manipulative coward.”
So true. My ex was definitely a coward and often a manipulative one. But not taking the hint is also quite cowardly, I think; at least when I think back now I’m not sure which of us was the bigger coward – him for his constant disappearing or me for refusing to take the hint and clinging to the shred of ‘but he hasn’t actually *said* it yet!
I agree Fearless on the cowardliness and actually, after I finally walked away from the guy with the girlfriend, what I disliked a great deal was the fact that I *had* been cowardly *and* I’d lacked pride. Man, there were so many hints from the outset, my cheeks warm a little just thinking of them! And yes, your ex hadn’t said it but he didn’t need to – he showed it!
Congrats. Res!!
I have read some of your guest posts, including the “honest conversation” post.
Thanks for sharing your journey.
I used to call myself insightful and I posted twice at BR under that name.
Reality check; I am getting schooled , tutored and mentored at BR!
Thanks to Nat all!!
Btw,my EUM used to call me “baby doll” and treated me like a rag doll. So I’m Baby Doll No-Mo’ and I’m in NC for months now!
I should have taken his hints earlier. But then again, I had no business with him in the first place.
He was a red flag on a stick!
Ah RES! Always lovely to hear from you! Congratulations on what must be near 18 months of marriage – yay! You embody why I write this site. And it’s not that you got married – you busted your proverbial nuts to look within yourself and work hard positively for over a year and recognised a healthy relationship when it came along. You’re in your forties and yet forty something women keep saying that the last chance saloon has gone – it hasn’t! I too have a deliciously dull life – I wouldn’t exchange it for anything!
I love hearing about happy outcomes for woman in their forties. I’m with a man who – after 3.5 years – doesn’t want to talk about the future, doesn’t want to move things on or live together. I’m thinking if I leave him I’ll be alone forever. I have neither the energy nor the funds to start hitting the scene again trying to meet someone else. Let’s hear more inspiration for the lost causes, lol!
{{{GonzoSpice}}} I’m not in my forties (yet) but I know how you feel and I thought I was going to be alone forever too. When I started thinking about things I realized that I was alone with or without my AC/EUM. With that in mind I set out to line up my life to be on my terms and found it so much easier to be alone without the constant disappointment and extra baggage. It will take some time to get used to but before too long you’ll see that you can be a whole lot better to yourself than he ever could!
Congratulations Res! Gonzospice, it is possible to meet a man in your late thirties or forties. After dealing with an EUM for four years, I made up my mind the emotional pain was too much, and let go. He met me not too long after he broke up with his ex, and I was the buffer to get him through it all, but he would not commit. He didn’t want a relationship, and he kept boomeranging, blowing hot and cold, hot and cold.
After I opted out of that insanity fest, I got counseling, read self-help books, had a decent boyfriend which didn’t work out (but that was OK…it was a mutual decision), and after a cooling-off period, tried dating again. And it didn’t take too long and I met my husband, and oh, it was so wonderfully different. All that anxiety, fear, that I had with the EUM disappeared…this guy showed up when he said he would, did what he said he would do, was kind and decent, and after 18 months of courting, we got engaged and then married. I was 39, and nearly six years later, it is still wonderful.
It is very painful to face your demons, but when you get to the other side, it is so worth it! If I would not have made the decision to break with the EUM, I would still be miserable and missed out on the past six years with my lovely husband!
Lovely Anna, great story.
Gonzo..have you ever thought if you stay in this, wanting so much more, you actually could be’alone’ for ever?The combination of ‘settling’ +fear of loneliness leads to lack of respect for yourself. Your guy isn’t hinting, he is showing you by action.
I noticed this in me, and if I’d left it to moulder, it would have affected more areas of my life, job,health,family, friends?
I stated what I wanted several times to my EUM,in terms of relationship and recognised total slippage pattern, not just with me but for donkeys with other women too. I did not hint.
For me, being single is more authentic, at moment.
Just thought I’d add that my sis has been with her guy for about five years, they are planning wedding , next year. A good friend of mine who is like Larry David, apart from baldness, has just proposed and is happier than I have ever seen him. Have hope.
My mother’s friend had a miserable 20 year marriage to a lying, cheating assclown. She felt unable to divorce him because she was Catholic, and had several kids and no money. He left her when they were in their early forties. It was a very bitter divorce, she struggled financially for many years, and she said she’d never marry again. At fifty, she met a great guy, and they got married. She’s now a widow, but says that the years she had with the second husband were wonderful, the best of her life.
My next-door neighbor is a widow in her sixties. She recently met a nice widower, and they look so happy together.
I am a lesbian in my early fifties. Last year, I was in my orthopedist’s office for a sprained ankle and got to talking with a guy my age who was there for a broken wrist. He asked me out. He seemed like a nice, decent guy, though who knows. If I were interested in men, I would have at least agreed to coffee, or lunch. He might have been great, he might have been awful, who knows? As it is, there’s just no point; I’m not looking for a guy.
But it just goes to show….you never know. It IS possible to date and find a nice guy, even at fifty or sixty, if that’s what you want.
Yep heard 3 quotes of those exactly as written – still hung in way past sale date. Glad that’s over. How can you expect to drink outdated milk past its sale date that has already gone sour and not get sick… yech!
Lol! Movedup.
I counted five of the brush-off hint quotes!
My personal favorite from his catolog;
“Now baby doll,” he said in a low tender voice. “You know my situation but it’s your call. It’s all on you girl. It’s all about you. I’ll explain later, but right now, I am too busy to talk.but its all about you babe”.
Ha!
Babydoll no-mo’, this comment made me *laugh*. That man wasn’t even talking sense! It’s like he was talking jive!
“It’s up to you.” I heard that one a few times when I told him I was thinking about going NC! Of course it was on me, I was in the relationship by myself. He certainly wasn’t going to take any sort of responsibility for something he didn’t value.
Another week NC today, girls! Hard but it also feels good, like I have some pride again.
Rb- Keep up the great NC work! I’m a little over 3 months NC and although it has been hard, and there have been days that it felt nearly impossible…we are strong girls and we are entirely capable of taking back control of our lives. There’s nothing more empowering than waking up and knowing you don’t have to wonder where your EUM/Assclown will be in the “do I love Chica8 today?” scale.
NML- Another slam dunk. Thank you so much for your awesomeness. The cowardly aspect really hit home for me. I was a coward for not opting out (never again!) but maaaan was the ex a coward. Be an adult. Man up. Decide whether you are in or out…the hot/cold, balking, “I love you” followed by “I don’t know” stuff was truly insane. Spoiled milk is right!
“How can you expect to drink outdated milk past its sale date that has already gone sour and not get sick… yech!” Brilliant Movedup. Stomach churning brilliant 😉
“Trust the hint, Trust your judgement”. Enough Said.
Thank you for this article couldn’t have come at a better time!
I am currently into week 3 of the no contact rule after breaking up with my EUM of 3 months.
He called me every day, even for the 2 weeks after I broke up with him. It was killing me to hear his voice everyday but not have him, so I said no contact for a while. he got angry and upset but respected my decision.
I am almost at breaking point of calling him, and this article has helped remind me on why I’ve done what I’ve done. He contacted me every day, but also said he’s not ready for a relationship so I know/hope I’ve done the right thing?
Nat, your words of wisdom, I’m sure are helping those of us who sometimes choose to not see those red flags! So thank you!
@MinSyd
you are doing good! He told you he isn’t avaiable. Yet he still wants to string you along. Forget HIM. Time to honor YOU.
Yes they will freak and spazz, showing false love when their sucker finally got a clue. Sure, it feels flattering in a sick way…even IF you took him back you KNOW it will be more of the SAME. You know this, MinSyd, don’t give him anymore of your life, keep up NC, good luck my dear!
Stay strong! I have already hit 2 low points throughout the past 4.5 weeks but I stayed strong and left him alone, and I’m glad I did. No regrets.
“He contacted me every day, but also said he’s not ready for a relationship so I know/hope I’ve done the right thing?” Er, you don’t need to *hope* MinSyd – you have done the right thing. Own your decision. Stop second guessing. I’m sorry, but what the frick is the point in someone burning up the phonelines while telling you they don’t want a relationship? Nothing. You’re not dial-an-ego-stroke.
MinSyd, you are doing great! He’s calling you to get validation that he’s still a “good guy”. In his mind he’s thinking “I know I’ve done her wrong but if she talks to me then I wasn’t *that* bad.” Don’t reward bad behavior!
Oh I am finding this soooo hard right now. I’ve been picking up on hints since May/June – being moody, cold, and ‘off’ with me whenever we’re out, not calling or texting as much, not seeing me very often. Because I couldn’t see any ‘reason’ for this change (I certainly hadn’t done anything different), I hoped it was just ‘stuff’ going on with him, and I backed right off to give him space to sort it out and miss me. Then I suspected he was fooling around with other women, sort of discovered ‘evidence’ (texts on his phone, his erratic behaviour when I bumped into him at a club, and my instinct said he’d arranged to meet some other woman – and I was right) but didn’t confront him about it. I agonised, lost sleep, fell ill, and couldn’t get any peace. I knew I had to say something to him or I would go out of my mind.
I arranged to meet him, and in a very gentle yet clumsy and inarticulate way tried to explain to him how I wasn’t happy with the way he’s been treating me, and wanted to know what had changed. He insisted nothing had changed, and was annoyed in a withdrawn way for me suggesting such a thing. I ended up asking if he did really care about me or was he just using me. He took umbrage and wouldn’t answer, said we would discuss it another time.
The next time I met up with him he still didn’t want to talk about it, and was still annoyed with me for suggesting he was using me. He changed the subject, and then on the way back to the tube he was full of flirty, lusty banter like he just wanted to forget anything had been said and pretend everything’s alright between us.
It completely flummoxed me because I had psyched myself up to get a clear answer one way or the other, to figure out if his behaviour had been a string of hints that he’s no longer interested, or whether he did really care about me and wants to keep seeing me, and I’d made a mountain out of a molehill in my mind. I thought he would either say perhaps we should call it a day, or be loving and reassuring that he does really care about me.
What I got (correct me if I’m wrong here) was a completely non-committal response that insinuated all was fine between us, and now he was offended because I had suggested otherwise.
So what is the message here?
Crazybaby…he was meeting another woman, you found texts,you’ve lost sleep, he makes you ill(so your body is giving you hints too),to hell with his message…what’s your message to yourself?
@Crazybaby The message is that he’s a lying chump trying to gaslight and use you for a booty call. By what you wrote, he broke up with you May/June and is using you as a buffer a time filler, a play-toy.
This man does not love you.
Men who love women declare it, show it, prove it and more importantly YOU feel it through his actions.
Please break it off, stop hurting yourself.
The message is move on from him and I’d suggest reading every word on this website. And, maybe changing your name from Crazybaby to Smartbaby or GotItTogetherBaby? Best wishes, my dear.
you thought you signed up for a caring relationship but he’s had this fine print from the start and its message is, what you see now are his real terms: he is entitled to have access to you with minimal effort by him*, while he reserves the right to keep his options open with other women**, and freely exercise those options***, no questions asked****. These are the final terms and they are not up for discussion.
* = clue of reduced contact
** you already have proof that he’s keeping his options open
*** you already have proof he’s exercising them
**** = hint of getting annoyed, withdrawn, evasive, on to fun stuff
I’m so sorry crazybaby… I know how this feels. But this is what it is.
Crazy baby – He’s not in a relationship with you. He’s using you as his option… Acting annoyed that you need reassurance is pretty clear indication that you’re not his main focus or priority. Sorry but I would bail and get rid of him, you deserve better… Good luck xoxo
NML – excellent post and topic. I wasted 4 years on an ass clown who kept dropping hints as big as an elephant, yet I chose to ignore or misinterpret. How foolish I was. Your blog saved me – 18 months now! 🙂
he wants to keep f***ckin u; that’s it; cut him out of ur life
Crazy,
He actions speak volumes. I think you know the answer: It’s time to move on!
It doesn’t sound like you’re getting any happiness out of this relationship, plus you believe he’s cheating. I would ask why you are holding on.
Wishing you the best!
You’re not crazy, CrazyBaby – this guy is pulling your chain. Read Jasmine and Lynda from L, below, if you don’t believe me. It’s not the same guy, but it may as well be.
Now is the time to WALK AWAY. Flush the handle on this one big-time – go No Contact. You will never get the last word, and you don’t need it. But you do need to get away, and fast, because this one could drag on for YEARS if you don’t cut the cord now.
You are worth a great deal more than this kind of cheap mindfuck. I don’t care if he’s George Clooney in looks or John Holmes in bed – he’s not worth it if he’s making you this messed up.
PS. He’s cheating.
What’s the message?
FLUSH!!!!
Crazybaby, after what you’ve written, I’m surprised you have to ask what the message is. You’re in denial though which is why you’re not getting the message and the smack in the face signs.This whole relationship should have been over in the first para, especially when you said you needed to give him some space to sort himself out and miss you. Nobody does that type of stuff unless they’re in a f*cked up relationship. It was definitely game over, no credits when he was shagging around. The message is get the hell out and go and sort out your self-esteem. He ain’t heavy, he’s an asshole.
Crazybaby,
He answered you by what he is NOT saying in response to you bringing it up, TWICE. I know we can second guess ourselves, and want to give people the benefit of the doubt, but you outright ASKED him, and only got a vague response, at best, and avoidance of the subject.
That in itself is another “hint”. Think about what it would be like to live your life with a man who communicates that way. He is disrespecting you by his refusal to acknowledge your feelings and talk about it. Don’t let his pretended outrage at your question of him using you throw you off. That is just crazymaking behavior designed to avoid the topic.
Crazybaby,
I’m so sorry you are going through this. Sometimes they just won’t be straight up with you, and so you just have to listen to yourself. Towards the end of the last relationship, although I was very scared of losing the relationship by speaking up, I was feeling so unappreciated and vaguely disrespected….so one day after the holidays, I swallowed my “pride”, which revealed I wasn’t as cool with things as I pretended to be, and asked him:
“You said you wanted a loving, committed relationship that could lead to marriage, but here you are disrespecting me, not appreciating me, making me feel like I have to have a threesome for the relationship to proceed to the next level…I know I haven’t spoken up about this before, so I am not going to assume you know you are doing this, but now that you know, and why, what is going on here? I don’t feel like your girlfriend, I feel like an option.”
It was the scariest thing I had ever done in my life (and that includes cave spelunking in pitch dark 🙂 ) and all he did was say
“I didn’t realize I was being so self-centered” then kissed me on the forehead, gave me a hug, and walked away.
A few months later he broke up with me, saying I hadn’t done enough for him, wasn’t to his level, I’d let him done in some ambiguous way… yadda yadda yadda. In the meantime, I lost sleep, lived with anxiety, had heart paplitations, ect. I believe, he didn’t speak to me honestly when I broached the subject because he wanted to keep me in his back pocket until he was ready to move on to the next lady.
Trust yourself and your gut. A man who really sees you, appreciates you, and wants you in his life will leave you with no doubts in your mind of his feelings for you, especially when you have voiced your concerns. Don’t let this shady AC manipulate you into keeping quiet and playing his game by suggesting that speaking up about your concerns is shameful, weak, or needy behavior.
Kick him to the curb, and if he ever asks why, you could just say:
“You and I have very different ways of treating people with respect, and that’s fine, but you don’t have a place in my life.”
Then, in a Chapelle’s Rick James voice: “I’m PRECIOUS sucka!” and then do a little dance away from him.
Okay maybe not the last part, but you know what I mean 🙂
Hugs
Jas
Jas, what the baldy hell is ‘cave spelunking’ in the dark.? Is that what us Brits call’pot-holing!’ No hints woman, tell me? Great post tho’
haha thanks Lynda from L – cave spelunking is when you climb around in caves with rope and a flashlight. The scariest moment for me is when you are hanging suspended in the dark, and you can’t see anything above or below you. Is it the same as call’pot-holing?! I also sometimes use context clues here on BR, and I figured out “massive tit” right away… but what is a pisstaker??! Luckily Ass Clown is pretty universal 🙂
Yep that’s pot holing, going into caves, abseiling in dark etc. Brave stuff. Pisstaker is when someone tries to fool you, acts shady, winds you up. In Scotland we call Ass Clown’s’ …
Bawheids(literally,telling someone their head is made out of balls/testicles)….bit more direct than hinting???
Really valued your comment, Jas, esp the tips on what to say (and do) as your departing move! Have had the same thing in both of my last relationships – the conversation in which they make it clear that they are not that interested in making you feel OK, and, in fact, they convey to you that sharing concerns or making gentle requests or stating preferences are all highly impertinent – greedy and/or needy. I picked up on this straight away with last guy – that he wanted to be right and have completely control more than preserve the relationship, so I wasn’t nearly as vulnerable and traumatised as I was with the end of the relationship with the AC, when I had spent months doubting and morphing myself.
Finally, a pisstaker is someone who takes the piss. Taking the piss means, in some contexts, to mock, ridicule or tease (ie to take the piss out of someone), but in other contexts, most common at BR, it means to take advantage of, breach some rule or convention without any shame, abuse trust, to try to get away with something that very few people would even think of, let alone consider.
Natalie, I consider you one of my imaginary girlfriends who gives great dating advice, and this post is another gem! When I’m in a sketchy situation, I can say to myself: What would Natalie say to me? 🙂
Haha Spiral! You wouldn’t be the first to say that to me! Now please stay away from that attached guy!
Perfect. Purrrrfect. Thankyou!
Nat,
The biggest hint was one I gave myself ? Before we even dated I had to throw him out of my house because I just knew he was playing games with me, had for years and I was sick of it. He only wanted me when it looked like I wasn’t going to be around to give him an ego stroke. Once he came back contrite and gave me the official title of girlfriend a few months later, I let a lot of dubious behavior slide. Then the hints kept on coming: he objectified women, and mentioned he was potentially addicted to sex, began to routinely mention threesomes with our girlfriends, some of his exes, or co-workers. According to him, all previous failed relationships were his ex’s fault. I began to see he was childish, judgmental, unreliable, manipulative, and dishonest with family, friends, and co-workers alike. Big surprise when he treated me the same way when it was time to break up. I didn’t leave because I just thought: ” Well this was what I wanted, so I have to make this work… I love him.” … but was beginning to have to overlook a lot of shady character traits in order to even like him. I’m pretty sure I didn’t respect him. I should have listen to my gut that day I kicked him out – I’m not given to dramatic scenes, but apparently I was in ultra self defense mode!
Jas
.
I agree with what you wrote to a certain extent but in my opinion people should just stop being cowards and say what they mean out front. Seriously though. I mean it is not that hard to say no thanks I don’t want to be with you. I agree that we should all look out for ourselves and not assume that others will do what is in the best interest of others because that is life, but that is truly sad how we have all just come to accept it. Whatever happened to people caring about other people/being courteous and being honest. Everyone is so PC and worried about hurting everyone’s feelings. I can say that I have no problem telling it like it is. My theory is if I don’t who will, and obviously no one has said it yet otherwise this person would not be doing what they are doing, and most of the time that is the case. I’m 21 and I just graduated from college and the past year I had an experience with an unavailable guy (he was 26, double shame), and he pulled the let be friends line and I just want to have fun. I believed what he said and I backed off I figured we were already friends things wouldn’t change, but he came after me with all this heavy emotional and personal stuff (you know the whole I’ve never told anyone this before…) so of course I got attached, and of course he got mad when he found out I still liked him because he said he wanted to be friends, but his actions said otherwise. People need to say what they mean and mean what they say.
I tried to be his friend but in the end he wasn’t happy with my positive personality. Misery loves company and I wasn’t hung up on him anymore or encouraging his misery or his woe is me attitude or his current “faux ” relationship with a girl he describes as nice who he was always complaining about and comparing to me. So he told me to decide the fate of our friendship (of course to make me the villain and him the victim) I told him to decide and SAY WHAT HE WANTED, he never did. So I decided he’s a complete idiot, and I have finally cut him off. YAY! Thanks to your advice about no contact, which I contemplated for about 2 months. 4.5 weeks of no contact, small but it is a start considering it was a year of this nonsense.
You’re so right Mel, of course we have every right to expect others to be clear and simple as the truth. But some people are unable to live up to that expectation. Some people are unable to live up to expectations as such! Your ex-EU friend sounds like he’s probably in both categories, is he? At any rate, your account of him sounds very similar to my experience with mine. One-sided oversharing, no idea about own role in relationships, allergic to being held accountable…
Couldn’t agree more, Mel. I totally get Nat’s point here too about not deluding yourself. But at the same time, I’ve definitely had moments where I’ve wanted a guy to cut the nicey-nice ‘it’s not you, it’s me’ crap and just say what’s really going on in his head! Especially when it’s someone you’ve been back and forth with for a long period — it’s miserable feeling like you’re not even worth having an honest conversation with to see if there’s a way to work something out.
It’s like getting those curt, generic rejection emails if you’ve applied for a job: “we cannot respond to queries about your application at this time.” So rude and condescending when you’ve invested so much time in the process! Yeah, maybe I’m better not knowing, but what if knowing that ‘constructive criticism’ could tip the scales my way next time?!
Well said and well done!!
I suspect the “just want to be friends” line was also a way to manipulate you. When it didn’t work ( with YOU coming on to HIM) and you backed off, he came back at you full throttle. Because he has to stay in control of the situation and he was able to do that because you didn’t fend him off when he returned all hot and heavy.
These damaged individuals are all about the control – they need to control the people in their lives. They are completely out of touch with their feelings.
‘I know they’ve not been calling, failing to show up, pissing me around, telling lies, and all sorts of Future Faking’
Pretty Much Him. These days,I have to admit he was conflict avoidant too and I saw the hints, didn’t ignore but certainly minimised what they meant about him, his history and the chance of success. I had reality in front of me and another deluded story running in my head.
His direct statement would have been;
‘Listen, I ‘m going to give you the time of your life in the first few months and promise you a life with me, we will discuss living together/marriage and I will say I have never felt like this before.( I will of course rationalise/minimise my marriage failure and blame the failure of all my previous relationships on the women concerned who were, emotionally cold,selfish,promiscuous, unreliable and non maternal, respectfully) You, Lynda,(aka. Florrie) will attempt to rescue me emotionally and sexually and life will be sweet for me for a while. Then,when I don’t actually include you in my life..and fail to live up to promises made, I will, of course, Lynda, Keep you on your toes…a bit of regular verbal abuse(you can take it!),disappearing act or two,odd meeting with ex girlfriend…then when I think the heat is off and you are getting confused and questioning yourself. I’ll return to promises made at the start of the relationship because I love you so, so much and cannot lose you. Lynda, prepare yourself for double standards… I will speak to who I like when I like, you will live the life of a medieval Nun. Also, I will of course send sex texts to ex’s and keep an eye on the ol’ dating sites I used to frequent..even though by that time we will be living with each other 3 days a week…the demise, will be a blast, L! When you confront me about my behaviour, I ‘ll get sick,deny I made promises,tell lies about you to all and sundry..then search around for a new Florrie. By the way the sex will be my way or the highway? Ok?Wanna sign up for 17 months…can I have your signature.
I gave him my signature. But he gave me my epiphany… I think I got the better deal.
Yep, this is what happens when you ignore the hints. Brill article Natalie, as always you are making great calls!
Brilliant! That is all.
wow Lynda from L… reading that first section, ‘Listen, I ‘m going to give you the time of your life in the first few months and promise you a life with me, we will discuss living together/marriage and I will say I have never felt like this before… Then,when I don’t actually include you in my life..and fail to live up to promises made, I will, of course, Lynda, Keep you on your toes…” — I nearly fell off my chair. today’s BR post is so specifically pertinent to my life right now, I’m gonna write a longer comment, but just had to stop here to say up until that sentence, this describes *exactly* my experience of the last 2+ years. I just had a phone call last night from the LDR/exEUM, I’ve been kidding myself that I can have any contact at all with this man. it’s a long story, but in the end all that matters is — he’s unavailable, always was, I chose to believe his Future Faking Fairy Tales, and have been unable despite huge efforts, to get over it and move on. feeling pretty pathetic at the moment…
Jesus. I got a great laugh out of that though.
OMG!!! Lynda that is brilliant and seeing it written like that is like reading my life story for the last 3 years!! And when I see it written down I’m like ‘whaaaa!??’ Actually, I bet that felt good to write it I’m going to do the same thanks
Hey Jane, Molly, Anoosh and LA…appreciate your comments. I’d love to say that the keyboard was awash with my tears as I wrote it but that would be a porkie!
In order to feel so’light’, there was a companion piece of advice to me’ Hints I Ignored to Myself’ As follows;
Lynda,
You told yourself that after two years on your Tod, after a bit of work on self,you deserved a bit of flattery. You returned to your old studenty,show pony ways, seeked attention and shape shifted into’ mid forties arm candy.’ Hint to self, take out the hair extensions.You were up your own arse!
You ignored EUM’s hammer house of horror record with women. Repeat, rinse, repeat.. Hint to self’ You were not the exception to his rule’
You tried to be his mother,dead sister,every female archetype in history. Hint to self..Park it Florence!
You put your career on hold, travelled to see him, made him the focus of your ever diminishing universe. Hint to self..he saw this, saw what it made you and disrespected you for it.
You couldn’t communicate unrest,anger,confusion to him.He quote-‘didn’t take a row’ Thus anger built up and periodically exploded. Hint to self, in future, if you have to keep it in that much, get out! No Tippy Toes…
You stayed too long in Limbo, lost face, took excuses , railed against the inevitable…hint to self’ When a man sends an e mail to an ex girlfriend saying’I will come through and be your rampant rabbit anytime,just say the word’-you, Lynda, are entitled to righteous anger.(she sent him a picture of her new sex toy!!)
Finally, Lynda, no amount of Indie films,trips,a great shag or two,promises that made your heart sing, similar interests….are worth it. Hint to self, maintain boundaries and values now and forever…
Direct statement to Natalie and everyone here at the site. From the bottom of my well worn and still searching heart. I thank you…
Ahhh… Movedup. A friend once said to me duringy ex’s reset button push…”Ramona, sour milk stays sour even if you put it back in the fridge”. Glad I tossed it. Thanks Natalie. Brilliant post.
Ramona, I LOVE that saying!
I went through a time where I couldn’t take a hint if it was gift wrapped by Neiman Marcus, delivered by FedEx and physically leapt off my doorstep and smacked me on the ass. I took back a Reset Button Dude after listening to how he was going to come visit me and give me a “sales pitch” (yes, that is an actual quote – I didn’t know other men actually went ahead and said stuff like that until I found this blog) for us being together.
Well as soon as he got a foot in the door, before we’d even sat down on the couch, the future faking extravaganza began – complete with specifics as to the glamorous NYE we were going to spend together. Mind you, I was ditched by Christmas *AHEM*. Anyway, so I asked all the pertinent questions about what had been going on in his life, why he wanted to start things up with me, what he was looking for, etc. What I got was not a sales pitch, but noncommittal hemming and hawing followed by…him trying to jump me. At that point, I should have been unable to sit down, due to numerous ass smacks from about 10,000 hints. I was so willfully oblivious, I congratulated myself for fending off his advances and decided he must really be a changed man because he took me out to a nice dinner. Denial, Thy Name Was Natasha.
Natasha,
Do these salesmen work for same organisation. I’ve had a visit too?
Resetting buttons a speciality…hmm. My visit happened after I laid down some terms.’ I want to build’ he said.’ Lets adjourn to lounge, with glass of wine and discuss how you will move to me, change job, rent out your house…it was actually a good deal. He only seemed to want money for utilities. Guffaw!
My side, look good,listen,endless shagging,court jester activities, putting up with pretty much what he defined as any other duties. Oh, and continue being a professional person too. Although your job will always figure less than mine…seemed clear. Hints came later, through lack of action. Then more lack of action…..sometimes a hint isn’t verbal or noticeable. It’s what you don’t see, because it’s not happening.
“Hints came later, through lack of action. Then more lack of action…..sometimes a hint isn’t verbal or noticeable. It’s what you don’t see, because it’s not happening.”
Exactly! That’s what sucks about these situations sometimes – it takes some time for the lack of action to become apparent and then it’s like, “Errrrrr, I’d like to see the contract I signed with that salesman?!” In my case, all the red flags were there from the get-go! I got the Reset Button too (I’m thinking that thing should be illegal at this point) after I booted him out of my life for treating me like a booty call and I know how aggravating it is. These men that come back with bs promises knowing full well they are not going to deliver? Ass. Clowns. Sounds like you definitely had one of those on your hands!
I just recently realized how I have and continue to make excuses for people’s bad behaviour – both men and women. I fooled myself into believing it was me being COMPASSIONATE but really it’s a sign of my own low self-esteem that I don’t think I deserve to be treated with higher regard. I’ve begun to call myself on this habit as it happens almost daily. I will say “Oh I’m sure he’s been hurt and he just needs understanding” blah blah blah but really now what I want is someone who has ALREADY worked on themselves like I have so they are AVAILABLE to enter into a healthy mutually fulfilling relationship.
ohh soo familiar!
The hints can start before the first date even begins.
Very true, Molly!
With my ex-EUM, I believe the hint started even before I heard his voice or laid eyes on him, the fishiness/flakiness was already glaringly present through someone else’s narration and direct encounter, all of which l witnessed. How ironic. But I believe I could be an exception and spared all that, being the great person/partner I am.
With another EUM (right after the first but not enough for me to learn my lesson, it wasn’t too long before I went scuttling back to the first when it went bust), I remember asking a good friend if he was a womanizer, because I didn’t want to get hurt. When she said yes, I remember wincing, but thinking that perhaps the word “womanizer” didn’t necessarily have such negative connotations in German-speaking lands. Sigh. The degree in which I was able to reconstitute, overwrite hints and turn them into something else, was quite astounding, unbelievably naive. He was literally, a real-life incarnation of Don Giovanni but I thought I would be different. After all, who would have the heart to hurt me? I literally saw an inferno and happily jumped in, thinking that I was immortal and I would be be spared, escape being burnt.
There’s been a lot of discussion about taking responsibility and being accountable for oneself. Amidst all this reflection and thinking about what I did to engender all these nasty situations, I sometimes think that I courted it deliberately, maybe to try to overcome challenges or to prove that I could be loved by even unsavory characters. I’m trying not to sink into a mode of “I really did deserve all that” and “I created all the pain”, but evidently, there were reasons why that had to be experienced and why I attracted these situations.
JadeSesame- We never deserve to be treated poorly, and we did not do anything to “make” these guys act up. I’ve done that in my head too…”if only I didn’t pick that fight” or “if only I wasn’t so firey/saucey”…it gets you nowhere, and guess what? A normal guy who loves you will recognize you won’t always be 100% perfect. Our mistake was in not opting out the second we were treated without love, care and respect. Period. Lesson learned and we can move forward w/this knowledge. Also, people with integrity and emotional connected-ness do not behave this way. I’ve recapped the way my ex talked/acted to my guy friends and brothers and every time it’s met with “huh” looks and eye rolls. Keep your head up sister, you’re going to be ok!
Thanks, chica8. What you said is all true- no bending backwards for anyone or wondering if we should have been more subservient and docile! I think I was in a state of disbelief that someone actually did treat me so shabbily in spite of what I had to offer/my self-perceived “goodness”, that I hung around and opened myself up for further abuse and disrespect. Neither is it my task to restore and rebuild someone’s lack of integrity. I’ve learned. Our friends are normally right in being vociferous in their opposition and criticism.
‘The way someone can tell you want you want to hear, or touch you the way you want to be touched. Or should one feel nothing but disgust and repulsion…? ‘
Yes I hear you Jade and I too, expect to be stuck at this stage in the grieving process for a while yet.. I am done and past denial and my anger has subsided into a wry objectivity(most of the time) I am still, however puzzling
‘ how’ a human being(these guys) can engage another human being intimately and deeply through sex or verbal strategies and remain at best unmoved, at worst gratified or titillated at our naivety. I know the best advice is stop puzzling…but I am trying to work through this for myself and myself alone.
As I’m sure you are too.
I’m telling myself, be gentle with yourself, I have come a long long way.. but like you I’m praying for’ internal shift’ that will completely clear me of the dark scary wood… I can see the field beyond, can’t quite get there yet.
I had a strong verbal and physical connection with my ex, and the flip side of both those coins was dark. Pretty Intense. Nat gave me a great compliment lately when she said I seemed’ Lighter’. This is my absolute true aim, I need to continue to Lighten. One of the lighter moments I do have, even on this topic, is when I discovered that he used the same phrases to attract me as he had done with loads of other women. Same words, same intonation,the women were interchangeable, not the patter! I can actually laugh about that now…and even feel a tiny bit of pity for the hollowness of him.
Trying to be the exception, or believing yourself to be sure is a salutory lesson Jade. That comment about you swerving’ German speaking lands’ . I bet you feel the wool over your eyes about that now… I often, like Nat has said, blush about naive, embarassing moments still. I get you too, about ‘overcoming challenges’. It’s like wanting to have a picnic at the edge of a volcano.
Jade- I SO get the part about feeling shocked when they treat us poorly. It’s like your mind can’t fathom that the once perfect boyfriend (at least in my case) would be capable of criticising me/checking out on the relationship. I couldn’t believe it, so I tried to twist and turn myself into what he wanted…hideous. ONWARD!
I like the picnic at the foot of a volcano analogy! Getting involved with a womanizer (he also used to say things in half jest, like “I would sleep with all my female friends if I could”. Age 35, never had a long term partner, etc.). Geez, danger was practically stamped on his forehead and getting involved was completely unnecessary and stupid. The hints were everywhere! But I was at a place where I was vulnerable, really wanted to fall in love and wanted to make a relationship work. Thankfully, I wasn’t in love so the fall-out didn’t hurt too much.
About disbelief and shock. These pangs intrude into my mind often (less than before, but still present) and I felt miserable thinking about it. I cannot reconcile how someone who could kiss/touch me with so much sensitivity and tenderness, could pull such cruel disappearing acts. At that moment, I thought there was love embodied in the touch, in a gesture. I never felt that way in my life before. I gave all of myself in that moment. But everything else didn’t add up and his subsequent behavior showed me that he wasn’t in love. There are concrete physical aspects of the person I miss (it’s ok to miss someone’s touch, is it not? Maybe it was all mimed/a matter of he being supremely experience/skilled, he mirroring me. The way someone can tell you want you want to hear, or touch you the way you want to be touched. Or should one feel nothing but disgust and repulsion for one’s abuser?) but I’m trying to be more objective in my assessment now. It was this weak spot that kept me going back to the scene of crime. Just an intense desire to be touched and to touch. Perhaps this is what I struggle with the most, the assumption that there is a kind of fidelity and depth embedded in someone’s touch, that something that meant so much to me could mean nothing to another. What hints could be derived in those moments? I did sense a kind of unavailability but I still felt that love was present. Now it’s clear to me it was nothing but a seduction game. It still hurts to think of how I was played with.
No point reminiscing about the past but sometimes, I find my mind being attached to the recollection of how it felt being near him and in his arms. I’m strictly in NC (numbers/old texts all deleted so I can’t get in contact), the frequency of the hurt is diminishing but I am still finding ways to support what I’m doing on the surface with an internal emotional shift and to remove the wool.
Hey Jade and Lynda,
For what is is worth, I tried to be the exception to the rule too. I thought I could win him by being the perfect OW doormat. I cringe at what I did in order to win him. Doesn’t it seem odd when Nat descibes a healthy relationship? I’m now up for a picnic in the park rather than on the edge of a volcano. It’s a totally different way of living.
Lynda, thanks for your words. Buoyancy and lightness can be useful. Gosh, my ex also recycled his phrases, he said the same thing to another woman. Their lack of imagination IS laughable. I hear the issues that you’re trying to work out. It’s difficult to disentangle from another whom you had a strong physical and verbal connection– I think it’s often perceived as being so rare, we must cling onto to it for life. I hate to think of how physical intimacy was completely desecrated with my ex. Sometimes I got the sense that he was mainly a detached observer, with me, but apart from me and that he derived power/a thrill from knowing he could make me feel so intensely and how responsive I was. These memories, of a physical shared togetherness are difficult to let go off. “They’re not that special”, is a phase that Nat reiterates here and I hope to eventually arrive at a point where I’m not reminiscing about how special/intense it was. It’s just very embarrassing and difficult to accept that all this was shared with someone who didn’t care about me at the end of that, when I believed then that it was something deeper.
Runnergirl, Nat’s description of a healthy relationship is no longer an abstract, theoretical ideal. I believe it’s possible. I cringe too, when I recall what I did to win him. I simply wasn’t being myself.
I feel like in the past couple weeks I have gotten some pretty strong hints that the woman I live with thinks she’s superior to me. She has said a couple things that I can’t rationalize and feel like crap, but my experience of asking her about them always just makes me feel like I have confirmed that she can get to me and that she is in control. I have put her on a pedestal for her organization and her accomplishments, and now find myself ruminating on things she said – “She didn’t mean that, right?” and feeling very familiar feelings of shutting down my speech (she doesn’t like it when I ‘complain’ about stupid racism in movies, or mention that it’s an emotional thing to figure out how to advertise myself, while still including that I write about race, into a resume). She is always going on about how she is polite and keeps certain things to herself, but in other instances it plays out that she indirectly lets me know she basically thinks I’m coarse, and oversensitive on the race thing. Her freezing me out over it just makes my desire to be able to talk worse.
I don’t know what the line is, but I find myself thinking, hmm, this is just like the exAC, but maybe to a tenth of the intensity and threat. Same feelings of “I’m too outspoken,” “I’m too victim-oriented,” and then the swing to “She’s fricking oppressive,” and “Why does she punish me for talking about my experience?” I sometimes feel like she takes pleasure in seeing me fret.
This is so damn familiar. My supervisor, who is super helpful, but calls me cute every now and then, or jokes about my capacity for a nervous breakdown. This woman, who sends me links that are professionally helpful, but then turns to a look of condescension when I say the ‘wrong’ thing. I want out.
I feel like if I took the first “hint” with both of these people, too, I would have no one. I am trying to learn the difference between knowing that even good people can be insecure and bitchy, and rolling with it, and knowing what counts as a hint. I hate the frustrated sense of knowing that I am the one who keeps choosing these situations.
@Magnolia: Can you move out? I’m not familiar with your situation, but even if you need to live with a roommate for financial reasons – does it have to be her? If I was in your place, I would rather stay with a person who goes about her own business all day long, even if she seemed “cold” to me, than with somebody who tries to meddle in my life or even mess with my mind. She’s quite obviously not healthy for you.
Of course, you have every right in the world to feel offended by any kind of racism!
Some guys criticize me for my “overly feminist” views and my “oversensitiviy” when it comes to sexism. This used to make me nervous and insecure too, but in fact, it’s not my fault! It’s theirs entirely.
If it comes to it, I will move. Right now I have a very small income, and it would be a very bad time to do that. My plan is to stick it out until the PhD is done, though when I let it get to me, I do things like stay out to avoid coming home. My mother says don’t talk about it with people who don’t understand. Then I get all: “I should be able to relax and say what’s on my mind in my own home.” But strangely I don’t – anymore – get quite as worked about gender stuff: that is, I don’t tend to notice chauvinist behaviour, or if I do, it just seems ridiculous to me. I’m in fact not around men much, and not around that behaviour. I used to get rolled eyes for my feminism, but maybe it was the way I went about it. I was offended at pretty much everything. Now maybe I have transferred that to race, or haven’t gotten strong on that ‘issue’ the way I have with feminism. My old scars don’t come from people taking initiative to bully by calling me names around being a girl, it’s around the other stuff. There are two brilliant women writers I know who are as engaged in teaching and discussing race politics as I am; I can’t imagine my friend treating them the same way. But then because I am compelled to say what bothers me, I feel “not put together.” I feel like I should just be over it, and understand who can’t hear me, and just go shut up and make some money and quit whining. Anyway, maybe I’m still stressed and looking for a fight.
It’s hard to distinguish another’s ‘hints’ from my projections. For example, last night I told my roommate about a writing pitch I’d made that was well received. The first words out of her mouth were, “Oh I thought that concept is passe by now, in my field we discussed that in the 90s.” Now, she is right, the words I used referred to a concept I hadn’t heard of that in fact were a popular poli sci idea that has been discredited. I read that later. At the time, I felt immediately put down.
I was like, “Is this a hint that she has no respect for me? Why did she have to dump on me the moment I mentioned a success? Or that she is just rude? Or am I projecting? Maybe she is just being argumentative and intellectual and doesn’t mean anything by it?”
This is not the same as her saying “I’m better than you” the way a guy says, I can’t give you what you want. But I’m back to the old self-doubt of whether I’m the one sabotaging or she is condescending.
Mag,
Can I say something. In the end, it doesn’t come down to your flatmate’s motive here or indeed to your potential projection. It comes down to, if every day , in your interaction with her, do you feel troubled afterwards, do you doubt yourself, ruminate too much or does it seem to add to your stress? If that stacks up, if after a fortnight or a month you are still having these feelings then look for options to remove yourself. It will be an energy drain otherwise.
I feel that you are spending time dissecting hints that may or may not be due to her jealousy, your over analysis of the situation or the fact that you may just be generally incompatible as roomies.
If over the next short period of time you feel unhappy, look to move. But…it may settle. Keep a short note in a feelings diary to keep you anchored about the situation. A decision will soon materialize. I used to ruminate like mad, know what it’s like..
Thanks, Lynda. Sometimes I do just have too much time to ruminate. God, I don’t always want interactions with people to cause this much panic/analysis. It’s exhausting.
Hey Magnolia, I was thinking about your comment yesterday and a few things spring to mind. This all sounds rather intense whether you look at it from a flatmate or friend perspective, but definitely from flatmate perspective. I was only just with a friend the other day who said that when she gets home, she doesn’t want to talk to anyone. She just wants some quiet, to let the day wash off her and can get a bit out of sorts if she doesn’t wind down. I know this because I’ve lived with her for little periods of time and took the cues and left her to it. It’s no reflection on me or anyone else – it’s about her meeting her own needs. Lots of people are like this. Experience has also taught me that within ‘shared homes’ we must respect one another’s boundaries. It is true – it’s your home and you should be able to say what you like. But not to her. It’s also her home, so she may be thinking that she can talk or not talk about whatever she wants to. You both need to respect one another’s personal space and the truth is, being flatmates isn’t an automatic precursor to friendship. I know people who have lived with someone for a few years. They get on but they’re not close and actually, this can be relief. These conversations are what you should have *after* a friendship has been established because then you have a greater sense of who you’re dealing with. In fact, it would be better that you have these conversations *with* a friend and I think irrespective of what your content of your conversations are about, it’s questionable whether you are friends. What you think of her, what you think she thinks of you, and ultimately her behaviour that you’ve described, suggests that you don’t have this type of friendship.
On the stupid racism thing, lots of people don’t like it. Race isn’t something that everyone wants to discuss or wants to discuss all the time. It’s your passion, your background and your career but unless they share that same value, they’re not going to react how you want. I don’t talk about blogging, or dating and relationships, or even my previous experiences with everyone – it’s important to know and gauge your audience. In truth, I think your flatmate is hinting that she’d like to talk about something else or that sometimes, she just wants to watch the film.
You’re not wrong to have things you want to talk about Magnolia but it sounds like you need to see yourself on the same level as her instead of putting her on a pedestal because you’re automatically treating and viewing yourself as inferior. You don’t *have* to put her on a pedestal. She’s just the woman you live with. Stop blowing smoke up her arse – correct me if I’m wrong, but she’s never asked you to inflate her? She’s not that special!
NML, Magnolia
It’s tough sharing, especially as you get older. Even someone having a different bedtime to you can cause problems. I shared a lot when I was a student and I am still friends with only ONE of my ex roomies . Some I got on with very well. Others we pretty much stayed out of each other’s way though there was no enmity. When roomies fall out, from my observation, it’s usually because it’s become too intense and then one, other or both finds it awkward to rewind it back to a more neutral place.
I think it’s best to keep interaction light, even shallow, and let it develop naturally. As the old saying goes – never discuss politics, sex or religion. It ALWAYS leads to differences of opinion -which is fine amongst old friends or sparring partners. But probably not so fine when you’re kicking back at home with someone you don’t even know very well, and just want to eat your beans on toast.
Ladies, this experience really has helped me think about why I open my mouth to talk. The other night my roommate was telling me about a difficulty she was having, and it was something that I would not find difficult, probably not even story worthy, were the same to happen to me. I found myself struggling to respond, in perhaps the same way she struggles with me – not that I didn’t want to hear it, I just couldn’t relate. When I hesitated to respond, she looked at me insistently, and said, “It’s hard!!” Then I understood what she wanted, and was able to respond with the appropriate, “Oh, that sounds difficult” etc.
Sometimes I’m probably not “just” talking, but hoping for a response, a very particular response. In my own way, I’m saying, “It’s hard!!” and just wanting someone (she happens to be there) to say, yeah, that’s hard.
It IS frustrating that she wants to talk about her work day, and all the theoretical issues that she has discussed with students, none of which trigger me, but my work has to be off bounds. I guess the point is to realize that we’re not *friends* in that deeper way, and I can maintain my own emotional boundaries appropriately. I have been putting *friend* expectations on a relationship that – you’re right – actually has not ever gotten to that level of trust/intimacy, despite having lived together for two years.
The fact that our ‘light’ conversation often feels filled with competitiveness is another issue, I suppose. I guess if I don’t expect the supportiveness of friendship, then even that can just be a feature of our talk without it having to fret me too much.
Some people who have partners going through the final stages of PhDs say that their partners go a little nuts! Both of us are in that stage, so there is room for a fair bit of intensity.
Thanks for being here to talk it through. (From my university grad lounge, where intense conversation around the R topic has come up 3 times in the past 3 hours. 🙂 )
This is exactly what I needed to hear. I was seeing a man for a year that kept telling me ” I’m too busy” “I have too many issues” ” “I just want to finish college”. It’s pathetic that these cowards can’t be honest. it was hard for me to accept and I was in denial because if I don’t like someone I will tell them straight up even if it hurts their feelings. unlike these fucked up assholios I guess I actually have a heart. It’s sick how ppl will continue to hurt and use a person they knows has feelings for them on purpose. Why continue being around someone you are not interested when u know they are going to bitch And moan when their needs aren’t being met? So pathetic. I think I’ve finally realized that looks, dick size, money, educational background, don’t mean a damn thing if the man treats you like a bootycall. thanks Natalie! I’ve recently let my assclown find someone else’s life to destroy. I wish I would’ve found thid site a year ago and I would have let him go after the first time he said “I’m too busy” or “I just want to take it slow”.
michelle
he was being honest. You weren’t listening. Don’t let your hopes and fantasies drown out what he’s saying.
Hi Michelle, I’m not sure what exactly your words were to which he would reply with “I’m too busy” “I just want to finish college” etc. Was it “Wanna live together forever?” or just “Wanna go to the movies?” How upfront were you? Whatever he kept saying no to… it was for a whole year. When someone isn’t showing up and we’re sticking around for when they finally do, we’re betting on potential. That potential we imagine may amount to little more than our private hidden agenda, which is also dishonest. Do we fallback girls ever explicitly say “Listen, more than anything else, I want to be loved and cherished, but as much as I crave intimacy right now, I would need to be in a committed relationship to really feel good about getting that close. Am I ready for a relationship? You mean, am I ready to be taken seriously – you bet I am ready.” When we deny wanting all that we want in its fullness, we’re handing them the excuse on a silver platter, if there ever was one, to take advantage.
I absolutely love that mental image of a puzzle with pieces appearing gradually, though I’ve never seen the show — Nat you nailed another one!!!
I think of clues as actions without the confusing quasi-explanations, and of hints as just abstract or hypothetical verbiage in noncommittal, indirect language that doesn’t actually get to the point. Saying “I’m busy” is evasive enough to qualify as a hint while saying “I’m not available” is actually an informative statement. In the end they both indicate identical facts, and always come supported by the clues of their actions or omissions. Just like threats or a hot temper are clues of a physical abuser while hitting someone is PROOF. Thank you for reminding us Nat and please keep at it!! we absolutely need to heed all: straight talk or hinting or proof or clues.
I used to know a special someone who was so fond of hinting, he used it for telling the truth about himself AS WELL AS for lying and manipulating! This cracks me up!!!! Yet, even couched in weasly language, the real deal is still the real deal and bullcrap is still bullcrap. And you guessed right again Natalie, my excuse to myself was he didn’t say any of this outright. Who the heck would say “You’re obviously hoping I’ll love you after I run out of excuses, but you’re wrong and you’re wasting your life on me” or “Come to think of it, now that you withdrew the benefits from the friendship, it’s not worth my pretending to try to spend the requisite energy to be there for you as a real friend?” Here’s one more, the translation for the first and last hint I finally did take: “Don’t try to make me feel guilty by talking about feelings, as soon as you start that I’ll simply discard you like the others.” It wasn’t the first time he hinted this but eventually I chose to cut my losses and just take the damn hint and act on it. So that became literally the last conversation we had. It is that simple! (Not easy, but perfectly simple.)
The flipside of the truth in hints is those not-quite-lies: his guy was a freaking world champion of hinting untruths so I felt like I could never catch him fabricating and confront him, it was maddening! Don’t ever wait for the right moment to reason with the irrational, just stop listening!
Almost every word in this post is relevant to my previous experiences with both EUMs. There were hints but I think I didn’t want to interpret them the way they should have been interpreted, which alludes to a dodging of responsibility of my part/avoidance. I was waiting for a direct, unequivocal statement to bail out, but why was I giving them this allowance when it should have been about me having the agency and self-driven initiative to bail out? I definitely didn’t trust myself to take these hints and in fact ended up supplementing them with my excuses: maybe it’s because men take a longer time to communicate and I need to be more patient, I was not used to men before and have to learn their modes, maybe it’s a cultural temperament hitherto unknown to me that I’m dealing with, a Viennese reticence, inscrutability.. The fact that I was trying to come up with explanations, theories, excuses was the biggest hint that I was in danger. I wish I was self-reflexive enough then to realize all this.
My ex-EUM loved hints. He was smart enough to drop hints that were actually not blatant, outlandish lies (the way he was smart enough to dish compliments that were actually not so far-fetched) it’s true that he had an unusually busy and demanding professional life. I think he was a subtle master manipulator in that he knew how the hint would be interpreted by me, but kept feeding me these hints (exactly what was barely enough, to keep me hooked), but I’ve realized that I don’t have to be a compliant subject. I can do the un-hooking and deconstruct these hints to see them for what they really are. Hints don’t always belong to the domain of grey, especially when these hints/indirect statements keep coming one’s way. The subtext is present, if one chooses to be alert to it. He was nothing but a pastiche of empty signifiers, non-committal words and hints. Am off the bullshit diet!
“Putting it all on someone else to spell it out, is major avoidance of responsibility and accountability.”
Omg, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve used the phrase “well, if you want me to go then I need you to tell me to go”. Sad thing is, this has happened more times than I care to share. Or some variation of that. Course they never came out and said “hit the road” or anything. Instead they’d use stuff like “i’m busy” or whatever. So as I type this, my mind leans back toward Uh-ohville. If this has happened to me numerous times….this needing SOMEONE ELSE to tell me to get lost, then something is ……….. errrr…..that word again…..with me. If someone is doing something you don’t like or you just don’t particularly like them, it’s a rare occasion you flat out say it. Instead you toss around cues hoping they’ll pick up on it. Heck, I do it with some people. Ugh, this brings my “why doesn’t he want me” thing again. Circles circles. Why doesn’t he want me? What is not to want?
“When someone is married/attached and is trying to shag you or you’re already in an affair with them, it’s a clue that not only are they avoiding commitment, but that when they experience problems, whether it’s within themselves or their relationship, that they avoid them.”
Yikes. MM wasn’t trying to shag me but if I’d thrown myself at him, he would have done it. We were fiercely attracted to each other. I think it was more intellectual stimulation. I thrive on that and so does he. Or at least it is exciting for me to talk about stuff like that. My guess is he’s missing that in his marriage or missing something, hell missing himself. This is a rocky playground here so I can’t walk on it for long else I get upset all over again wondering the why’s of it all. Still like a knife to my heart when I think about why he chose her and not me……ugh. God, will I ever get over this? There’s no one else that has had this much impact on me ever. None of the other EUMs. I am still in love with him and there’s nothing to do about it but let it go. Everyday, every second, let it go. Have my bouts of crying and being angry and move through it. But i had a bit of an epiphany today. I’ve been practicing over and over in my head saying I am good enough. I’ve picked up on how others tear themselves down and it reminds me to pay…
color – are you beating yourself up over why an MM chose his wife instead of you? ugh, let her have him.
in your comment is what sounds like another instance of colororange asking “what is wrong with colororange”? Was it Grace who said – and it may not have been to you – the only thing wrong with you is that you think there is something wrong with you?
keep believing in you, color. if you have a history of saying you need to be told, then clearly you were in the midst of learning how people communicate, and hadn’t really been told that some people won’t, and some people can’t, say what they want. Some people know and can’t/won’t say, other people don’t even know their own minds and couldn’t tell you even if they tried.
I can relate, though. When I was ten, I had a crush on the same boy who eventually led a group of boys to assault me. Do you think I avoided him? No. I would sit behind him on the bus and sing pop songs he would like, so he’d change his mind. I asked him, more than once, in person and in carefully folded and passed notes: “Why do you hate me?” I may even have given multiple choice checkboxes in the note. Stalker much? In my preadolescent way, yes. I was compelled to go toward, and try to question, hostility. “What don’t you like about me?” I’d ask, in a million different ways. As if once they told me I could be like, “Oh, that’s cool, that or whatever else you have a problem with, I’ll just change it, no biggie. Just stop leading group bullying sessions, kay? Kay. Thanks!”
So, too, later did I think that if someone wanted out, they would sit me down for a heart-to-heart and say so. Nope.
Some people just don’t have that capacity. And, the kicker is, they won’t ever sit you down to tell you they don’t.
That has nothing to do with you. Also, really, if he were to say, color, you weren’t smart enough, pretty enough, confident enough and you didn’t give me bjs from the right angle, what good would that do? Would that give you the information you need of what to go out and fix?
coloro
flip this on it’s head. If someone wants YOU to do something you don’t want to do – what do you do? Do you sit down with them and explain in depth why you don’t want to do it? Or have you, ever, even once in your life – not returned a voicemail, not responded to an email, ignored a text, said you were busy, made up a fake dead uncle (okay that’s extreme) etc? Or have you ever done the thing you didn’t want to, and the other person kind of knew you didn’t want to? All because you wouldn’t flat out say no.
Very few people be as blunt as to say “I don’t want to do it. I’m not going to do it”. To expect the EU to say it is expecting entirely too much. And, to be fair, he has told you in his actions and lack of action. You’re just not listening. In the same way that you’re probably not listening to me! You need to quiet the storm and see what is really going on here.He didn’t choose her and not you. HE IS MARRIED. he can’t choose anyone else. He is in a legally binding contract.
Have you had recent contact with the MM? You seemed to be doing okay for a while. Over and over I’ve seen women query the moon, stars and workings of the Universe just because … they got a text. It’s not worth it. Cut him off.
There are plenty of fiercely intelligent people out there you can talk do without being shafted. This bloke is not that special.
He’s been the last of a long line of EU’s. There was some contact and I had to go back NC again. :/ I’m pretty sure this time it’s official…….because I said something he was not expecting. It was difficult with him because he was the EU that would engage me and it didn’t seem to matter what I said to him, he stuck around somehow.
Yeah, the whole social cue of taking hints has slipped past me. I got caught up in words. And wondering why he’ll say I’m amazing yet shaft me. It’s another last ditch effort to win at something I’m never going to win at, at least not with him. I can say I am glad we never had sex. I imagine I would have completely went off the deep end if I had. I figure it’s pointless trying to figure out why this or why that with him. It’s like trying to figure out why my dad wastes his life away on drugs and alcohol. I’ll never understand and it’s not for me to understand. I’ve been diligently drilling it in my head that THIS IS NOT ABOUT ME.
Yes, I have to continue to work on my self-esteem, how I dog myself and oh god….how I apologize so much for being myself..how I say things that are probably inappropriate because I never got the book of What You Should and Should Not Talk About With People….I am working hard though, when I remember to keep doing it, each day in my head I tell myself something good about myself. I am going away for the weekend to stay with some family and I think that will help me out a bit to get away. And yesterday I reached out to someone I know that is going through a difficult divorce and told her how wonderful I think she is. I meant it sincerely and it seemed to help lighten her load for a moment.
ColorO,
When you find that book of social cues, please, post a link.
will do Friends First 🙂
Grace, that’s not THAT an extreme of an example – my ex once made up a fake dead uncle to get out of having me visit him. I sh*t you not. It started out as a fake injured uncle. How did he get me to start talking to him again? He texted me and asked if I had seen the obituary of said uncle (who I did not know was fake-deceased, whose name I did not know, and who fake-lived in another state) and felt badly about what I said. These are the things that happen when you keep second guessing yourself, i.e. you can look at a story that you know is bs, that everyone who cares about you is telling you is bs and still sit there thinking, “Well, maybe I’ve got it wrong.”
I can offer a guy who made up a fake dying uncle because he chose to go on a fun holiday with his family even though I had (at his insistence) already booked a long-haul ticket to fly out and see him. Of course the ticket was only partially refundable.
The last guy used a fake accident (a fall off the roof!) as an excuse why he’d stood me up for a date.
Jesus, it’s been a bad year for fake uncles…their mortality rate is through the roof! As for the one who lied and said he fell off of one…what. a. loser. I will never understand these guys – don’t they feel stupid?! I would.
And to think my great uncle actually just died (seriously) a couple days ago of a heart attack.
Oh jeeze Color, that was really bad joke-timing on my part. So sorry to hear about your great uncle and please excuse my faux-pas!
Color, I think it will help if you remind yourself that you have not missed out on anything by not getting further involved with this guy. Think of all the OW stories on here…is there ONE that hasn’t ended in tears? Nope. I think you can pitch this to yourself much more positively: You were really attracted to the guy, but you knew you’d be setting yourself up for trouble by getting more involved. So, you made the right decision for yourself. I think you also need to knock this guy off his pedestal. As Nat says, he’s not that special. There are many, many men out there that are available that you can have a great connection with and would be thrilled to have one with you. Believe it 🙂
Natasha,
Yeah, I hear all that. And I’m wondering where the frick they are? I made a nice connection with a guy at a popular electronic store the other day. He was wheelchair bound but a nice fella. I wasn’t attracted but we had a short conversation and it felt good to do that with a man. I still feel this pressure to be/say/look/act perfect around men. I can’t cuss, can’t pick my nose, sit with my legs uncrossed, must act feminine!!! and all that junk to attract a man. Oh and wearing jeans and a hoodie with sneakers is out of the question and OMG I must wear make-up (which I don’t). God forbid I accidentally toot around one. **sigh** There’ve been so many things written and talked about with all these blasted love coaches that I’m afraid to move my eyeballs a certain way else they’ll be put off by me!!!
Colour, I would suggest not picking your nose, but all the other? Why not? It is who you are among other things…why dress the part that isn’t you? Go by YOUR rules of comfort, etc because you will be authentic and not someone else’s idea of who you “should” be…just my 2cents worth if it helps at all.
“There’ve been so many things written and talked about with all these blasted love coaches that I’m afraid to move my eyeballs a certain way else they’ll be put off by me!!!”
Oh Amen Color! This might sound cheesy, but I really think that the right dude won’t give a sh*t if you don’t wear make-up and prefer sneakers over heels. Personally, I can tell you (via my guy friends) that a lot of men LOVE the natural look. If it works for you and you FEEL good in it, nothing wrong with that! Some of these love coaches…I don’t even know. I totally know what you mean about knowing logically that there are guys that would be a great fit for you, but in practice it’s like, “Ummmmm, where are they?!” Ohmygod, do I know where you’re coming from. If I find where they all are congregating, I will email you a map 😉
The thing about the ex Assclown,is that he didnt even really hint,He was as mean and cold as they come.
What the hell was wrong with me that I ever accepted this Behaviour…I put the horrible man on a pedastal for all the world to glorify….I made excuses for him,laughed when he did something insane whilst telling my freinds the story{Meanwhile they were looking at me like I was crazy for allowing this),and allowing him to future fake,dissapear,come back and the beat goes on…I sure am alot more aware of people now a days,and thats thanks to you all here,I will never settle again…
Brenda
Thanks for another cracking post, Nat! So important to hear as this is the damaging stuff. This is the stuff that makes you feel so humiliated and awful and delays the recovery process. It’s that ongoing realisation that you missed signs and clues. Some of this is natural – it’s healthy not to doubt things and to have a decent level of trust, and you can’t always recognise this behaviour at the time because it’s so foreign. But once you do and overlook or minimise it, that’s when you start to hurt yourself. I remember my body sending me danger alerts when the AC would tell me he’d never hurt me, and how useless he was at loving people, and I thought ‘I can conquer this’. Another one to look out for – a fave of recent ex: ‘I am who I am’. It’s nice now to be able to see these things and not take them personally. I met with younger guy yesterday and we had such a nice time, but he did say – seemingly out of nowhere – ‘I am so not even near marriage and kids.’ I am not exactly flicking through bridal mags, but that was a definite, if subconscious, attempt at telling me where he is at. People tell you where they are at.
I read the the title, and thought, hmmm, this sounds interesting. I think this has Mango stamped all over it. Then I read the copy in the blue box and thought:
Hahahahahaha! Bwahahahahahaha!
Ohmygosh, I am laughing. No, now I’m crying. I’m cry/laughing at the hilarity of it all, and also the absurdity of it all, and how I succumbed into the foolishness, possessed, as if under a spell. Silly long lost lover-the one that got away-man of my dreams fairytales. So, in answer to your question, No, apparently I cannot take a hint. How embarrassing.
And I haven’t even read the post yet!
That blue box. That blue box was in my head. He did say, “I’m not ready for a relationship”. Of course he did; he followed classic EUM form, and in true good ole fallback girl fashion, I willingly complied.. And the Mango bubble above my head, bleated out various yahoo babelfish interpretations, such as the one in your blue box, and OH. SO. many. more. Oy to the frickin’ vey.
I am, no no, was, a fool. A hopeless romantic, filled with hopes and dreams, and illusions and a broken EUM converter kit that never did work properly, because it was wired and configured all wrong at the start.
When my near migraine subsides, and I crawl out from under a huge work pile, I will read, and relate to the post. My eyes may leak as I’m bobbin’ my head with the rest of you lovelies. Yet, I will also have a huge smile on my face, as I can see just how amusing I must have been to the powers that be that listen, and silently guide, and wait for my next step forward…
I couldn’t take a hint. I couldn’t take the truth when he laid it out in front of me. For years and years I lived in la-la land, under some spell that I made. He didn’t put me under a spell – I did! I did not listen, refused to believe, would not hear it and kept pushing myself on someone who 1) clearly did not want me 2) did not deserve to breathe the same air that I was breathing.
During this time of reflection and super ALONEness, I realize that I just about always put a guy on a pedestal – chase – want – dream – love being in love so much that I don’t seem to care that they are not! ugh. There is no magic wand that changes a pile of **** into a Prince. It just doesn’t work that way.
“People think a soul mate is your perfect fit, and that’s what everyone wants. But a true soul mate is a mirror, the person who shows you everything that is holding you back, the person who brings you to your own attention so you can change your life.
A true soul mate is probably the most important person you’ll ever meet, because they tear down your walls and smack you awake. But to live with a soul mate forever? Nah. Too painful. Soul mates, they come into your life just to reveal another layer of yourself to you, and then leave.
A soul mates purpose is to shake you up, tear apart your ego a little bit, show you your obstacles and addictions, break your heart open so new light can get in, make you so desperate and out of control that you have to transform your life, then introduce you to your spiritual master…”
? Elizabeth Gilbert, Eat, Pray, Love
I wanted to share this quote with all of you wonderful ladies. I also saw the signs but ignored them all. I wanted to believe and trust. All the signs and red flags were smacking me in the face from day one. Three years later, still in denial and very much in love I caught him cheating. He was trashed out of his mind. When I confronted him with the other woman, he chose to walk away with her instead of me. That’s when I got the hint. Our relationship was never perfect but I never imagined it would have ended like this. He made a small attempt to get back with me. In my opinion, not because he cared so much, not because he loved me, because he was caught. It has taken me 3 months to not feel the pain. At the end the quote above “then introduce you to your spiritual master…”
ladies, become your own spiritual master…”
love yourself first xoxo
April
I don’t believe in soulmates.
Those are nice words from EG but I’m translating them as “Please walk all over me while I romanticise it”.
Love your last couple of lines though!
I used to think that the concept of past lives/soulmates was new age hogwash, but am quite fascinated by it now– why certain people have such a deep impact in our lives, a karmic pull, touch upon such raw nerves why others leave with barely a dent or an impression.
Found the Elizabeth Gilbert book quite absorbing and touching, by the way!
I used to believe in the ‘Coup de Foudre’ , what the French call thunderbolt…because I had it the first time I saw my ex husband.
But I read somewhere it’s just an instinctive, chemical(must be pheromones or sg) reaction to someone who has a compatible gene pool to you…your body hinting that if you ‘mate’ you will have healthy babies.
And truthfully, all these years later, decent guy as he is and was….it was just a chemical reaction!!
Denial isn’t just a river in Egypt. Awesome post as always, NML. And great insights from other readers, as well.
A lot of these things really are hints, but it seems like a lot of times, he’s going way beyond that and we still don’t get a clue. When he says he’s not ready for/doesn’t have time for a relationship, why do we think it doesn’t apply to us? Or when he says we deserve better, why don’t we believe it? The same goes for wanting to keep it casual. In these cases, the guy is being upfront but our wishful thinking gets in the way and we start to read all kinds of things into his actions.
I can take a “hint” Natalie! lol Or rather, I can’t! That is my problem! Anyways, rather than go on about my problems, I guess the better question is, WHY are so many men like this? WHY do so many men say these very things? I practically roll my eyes at this point when I hear any one of the above statements! It seems to me that men of year’s past weren’t this difficult. All they really wanted was sex with a pretty girl. And now all of a sudden it’s so much more complex than that and they have a litany of excuses! 🙁
Hi Natalie and everyone –
I’m just letting you all know how FAST life can change from zero to hero. Remember how cut up I was a few months ago about Nice Shy Guy? I can’t believe now that I let a thing like that get to my head – it was such a good sign that I was not ready to start dating again.
I am now taking my own hints, and have decided to put the (sexual) relationship thing completely on the back burner, and instead work on my family relationships and my friendships. You wouldn’t believe how much happier I am, and I’ve also gotten past the commitment phobia enough to buy a second property!
This is a big step/risk, but I have done the homework and am doing this with my head held high. I can’t count on anyone else providing for me in my old age/sickness, so it’s up to ME to take that responsibility, and it feels frickin’ fantastic – scary, but fantastic. You want an adrenalin rush? Don’t go out with a bozo – just go on the property market!
Just having made that commitment to myself has been priceless. By the way, it’s also signalled to the EUM (with whom I am slowly developing a friendship-only with good boundaries, plenty of space and more respect running both ways) that I really am now Off The Market, as my property plans include another family member. If it wasn’t for BR and all of you guys here, I’d still be stuck as a Fallback Girl, yo-yo-ing away and having the same conversations over and over with everyone here, while learning nothing.
It Can Be Done. I am living proof! Happy holidays and season’s greetings and THANK YOU!
Congrats PJM. That’s a big leap! Way to look after you.
Great news! xx
Nat…these have been my previous relationships to a T! And “all shirt and no trousers,” HILARIOUS!!! Going to sleep with these words make me happy! 🙂 i am realizing that hints do speak volumes, especially when accompanied by shady behavior! Good thing BR is here to save the day and give us back our sanity!
I *so* needed this spelled out for me – thank you!
Fearless: “not taking the hint is also quite cowardly” ~ Yes, that is exactly how I am going to look at it from now on (for myself)!
And yes, I did make excuses too, last winter, but when I finally came out on the other side of the whole mess and went NC (since late spring – I have no idea how many days or weeks or months and I don’t care to count…) I still had/have a niggling fear about getting jerked around by someone who can’t just SAY that they are not interested, despite trying to ‘play’ my interest and get benefits for themselves.
But this straight-talking of yours does help. It’s MY responsibility to not fool myself. “Hints” are communication, and hints are usually the best we can expect. And now that I know exactly what to look for (thanks to this website), I can take on that responsibility, and that is a gift! It’s a gift because it frees me up to be able to TRUST MYSELF.
And I think that is what I needed most of all.
One more comment – My ex-AC was a returning childhood sweetheart. He was EU then too, but at that time he at least had the guts to tell me straight up that he didn’t want a girlfriend. So I said “OK, fine” – and left. When he announced “I think I made a mistake” a few months later, I shrugged at him.
14 YEARS later, the only reason I had anything to do with him (the second time around) was because I could at least respect him for being straight up with me previously. Well, it seemed he had learned from his earlier ‘mistake’, and this time he wasn’t clear and didn’t tell me straight out that he didn’t want a girlfriend. He just tried to string me along, hot and cold, colder, coldest, lukewarm, cold, etc. This time he wanted to make sure he wouldn’t miss out on the ego boost and the sex if he changed his mind. Argh.
The good news is that since I have lost all respect for him, there’s no WAY I would ever go back. Not even in 50 years!
“What’s a gal like you doing with a guy like me?… ” Natalie do you I used think this was a compliment? Flattery?! I think have come a long way and THANK YOU!
I am still out there dating and practicing all the good stuff I’ve read. It’s not easy coz my fallback girl and Florence insanities are fading albeit very slowly but I do see changes in me for the good.
I was unfortunately raised in a “kingdom of martyrdom” and this too contributes to my acceptance of shady behaviors, trying to change him and be the exception. So when a guy said “I don’t want to hurt you”, I worked hard to prove to him that he couldn’t …. So he did! When he was controlling, I just bitched about it but still stuck around.
But I do feel stronger these days dating and walking away from dubious sensations… And sky hasn’t fallen on my head just because I walked
Ramona… “sour milk stays sour even if you put it back in the fridge”
Love that so much!! I am going to write that out and put it on my bathroom mirror! Thank you!
I’ve heard a bunch of those statements in my time, especially;
“I can’t give you what you want”, “I’m really busy” and “Let’s be friends.” Also (with a twist), “I love HER, but I’m not in love with her… so maybe we can still… you know…”
I have a very dear male friend who I am afraid is an affront to all women (even though we’ve been friends since High School and I love him dearly), and he favours the “I’m bad news” hint which he seems to use as a get out of jail free card. As in, “but I warned her…”
Interesting post…
Ok., so I arrive home this evening and collect my mail from my mailbox. Lo and behold I have a travel catalogue sent to me from my ex’s travel company. Now, during the 14 months that we were together, I was never on their mailing list to receive anything. I know that he arranged to put me on his company’s mailing list. Although I love to travel, I have no intention or desire to spend my hard earned money taking any trips through his company! So tomorrow morning, I will call the company (not him) and ask them to remove my name from their list.
Reading this post reminded me of clues that he gave when we were together such as, “I don’t want to hurt you.” and “You are a wonderful woman who deserves a man who will love you the way in which you deserve to be loved.”
Initially, I did not heed the clues because he strung me along by giving mixed signals, and I was both in love and confused. Once my rational mind told my foolish heart to step aside while it assessed the situation, I came to my senses and bounced.
I just wanted to vent because I am pissed off that he would have the nerve to actually think that I would put money in his pocket by purchasing a trip through his company. Sheesh!
Gina, I meant to post earlier… I missed posts that you had broken up with this guy and was feeling for you because you were optimistic for a while about it. You know something…check out for yourself…is it a better travel deal? See his company as apart from him, and get a bargain for yourself… It’s about what works for you, not him now.
Yeah he was giving you mixed signals. You bounced because you are a strong woman…take care of you.
Hi Lynda from L,
Thanks for your feedback, and for the nice compliment. His company does offer some really great travel deals, but my pride won’t let me take advantage of them though. I’m even more pissed off today, because I opened my email to find out that one of his best female friends (who always seems to pop up just when the ex makes some form of contact), has sent me an invitation to join some type of meeting, at her home, for a product that she’s been promoting. Afterwards she wants me to go running with her, her boyfriend, and some other friends. I deleted and blocked her email address once again (she used a different address this time), and I shredded the ex’s travel brochure (that felt good). Why don’t they just go away already?
Me:
He told you he does not want a relationship, he smiled at you with his – I can get women to drop their knickers for me when ever I want – George Clooney smile – hoping you said that is ok with you.
My friend;
Yeah I know. But I like him.
Me;
I have been there, you are selling yourself short and will end up talking 24/7 about a “relationship” that exist only in your head while he knows you are someone to call after a few drinks and feeling horny when his girlfriend is out of town.
Did I tell you I you I have been there. Even my no-good player of a male friend can’t talk sense into her and he knows!
At drinks after work, a guy who I had been casually chatting with at work with told me “I am not looking for a relationship” while doing his George Clooney smile on me. I smiled back, thought ( nice try you twatt), said ” it’s good to know what you want” and moved swiftly on. He no longer chats to me, I am ok with that. They will try it on, it’s up to you to breathe out : F.off you plonker.
Have your wits about you ladies, it’s the sentimental season (I used to work in bars, I have seen and done everything Christmas season), you have invested in a few dresses, expensive – insecurity targeted make up, those killer heels that kill your toes hurt but make you look tall, thin and sexy, and think or listen to Cassandras telling you that you should be with someone just because “ it’s not the season to be alone” but think again.
Give up the spandex to get into “ that dress”, take out your self-esteem for a celebration instead – much cheaper and you will be truly beautiful.
I am so glad that I found this website and after yet another crappy guy telling me ‘I can’t give you what you want’ I have learned my lesson. There were so many hints all the way through that I was completely oblivious to. Now I feel more awake and next time will go into it with both eyes open.
I love this!!!!!
I guess it can be hard to take the hint…especially when they are telling you how much they love you , telling other people how much they love you and sleeping with you whilst simultaneously treating you in a less than manner-letting you make the majority of the effort, being inconsistent, sly put-downs and criticisms, being inconsiderate and selfish. It’s confusing when this happens. I guess that’s the importance of believing the actions over the words and sitting down with yourself and noting their behavior-saying to yourself ‘well they say they love me but a man who loves me would not be OK with me doing all of the running around/making me feel uncomfortable/not checking in with me when I’m ill..’ and so on.
I think there’s just something about words that have people so hooked. Especially me..tell me you love me and I’m all yours lol and sadly there are people who take advantage of this.
Its almost insulting when someone tells you that they love you but carry on in a shitty way.
Thanks Nat – another great post – I am learning so much from you. Boy could I not take the hint! I must have been made of hintproof coating!
My exEUM relationship agreement was – I’ll be there for you for the first few months only, I’ll ring you and drive to see you and meet you for walks and talk about our future. I won’t tell you about my major health problem and my ED but I will expect you to help me get over it – I will even tell you that my ED is your fault when it isn’t. After six months of seeing you maybe once a fortnight I’ll suggest, without talking to you first, that we all (you and your children) move in together as I want to be with you so much and then because you don’t immediately drop to worship at my feet but suggest we take time to know each other some more, I will, overnight, change my mind and tell you I’ve tried really hard and that you and your family are inpenetrable. I’ll tell you that you are unloving and judgmental and then I’ll ignore you until you dance about and I know I’ve got you hooked then I’ll be nice but only give you the bare minimum because I know I’ve got you. I’ll not wash up the dishes for days and I’ll tell you I’ve saved it for you and you will do it, I’ll not clean the house at all because I know you will do it for me, I’ll not have any money ever so you can pay for everything because I know you will, I’ll not wash for days and will then expect to have sex with you because I know you won’t say anything and hey you are so lucky to be having sex with me – that is your reward for all this crap! I’ll not ring you because I know you will ring me, I’ll not go to your house because I know you will come and pick me up and take me everywhere and I will from time to time , usually once a month, get angry with you and tell you how useless you are because I know thats what keeps you in it. I won’t respect you because I don’t respect anyone including myself and when you try to be ok away from me I will still text you just to make sure I know you are still there and I can make you dance. Please sign here – sign up for theree years or more of it – because I know you had 20 years of it from your ex husband – you must be really stupid!!
OMG – when you see it that way WHO would sign up for that?? I did. What huge huge hints!!!! And still he texts, I hear nothing for weeks at a time, I’m getting along…
Jane, brilliant! Like Nat’s article it really works when you analyse what hints you’ve been ignoring and state or write down what it actually means, for you in the day to day reality of the relationship.
Didn’t wash for days..Eurrrgh!!The dirty bugger…
LOL at “the dirty bugger!” That is just gross!
Can you take a hint?
No I can’t especially when I’ve been smoking the crack pipe.
I listened to no one not even myself.
He must have loved it when I said “I hate conflict I always avoid it”
He was free to do as he pleased because I just avoided the conflict by denying what he saying or doing.
My lack of confronting him or allowing myself to feel my real feelings is what kept me there for four years.
It is funny how often I called him a coward, behind his back of course, but I have to agree with Fearless I was just as cowardly, afraid to confront him, afraid to question things more closely and most of all afraid to end it myself.
I have hung on clung on just waiting for words “no I no longer want you in my life”
Have there been hints errr just a million, no contact from him would have been the biggest. Thats okay I can run after him, humiliate myself a few dozen times. Cos its not the hint of his actions Im looking for its his words of bullshit Im listening to.
Finally in our last phone conversation, he was blunt with me and all of the truth came out. So it seems nope I can’t take a hint and even direct can be
a tough one when conflict is to be avoided.
here’s a bit of a sad saga. perhaps it could serve as a cautionary tale, for anyone who is ignoring those *clues*, at her own peril.
apparently, I didn’t get enough of a hint in a year & half of being broken up — which included 2 vanishing acts, 6 months of NC, and a great deal of pain. since July, a surprise call opened the door to “friendly” communication. which of course, has been leading me to entertain supersecret hopes that True Love will win the day after all, and the hard work to get over the heartbreak, well… that would just be water under the bridge. I take full responsibility for allowing this recent development, especially after reading Baggage Reclaim religiously since early April.
I wonder if anyone else who believes in this site with its incredible wisdom, who eagerly tries to soak up the knowledge and live by the principles Natalie writes about so brilliantly, who has gone NC, done therapy, journals, read self-help books backward and forward, looked at and worked on her life up & down — has ever turned back into A Fool Such As I (that Elvis song) when Mr. Unavailable came around again.
He’s been doing all the phoning up (2x month or so), making dvds of Brit TV series for me, trying to redeem himself I suppose. most of the talk has been light & sweet. I wasn’t bringing up anything about “us” or the past, except once briefly. last night, after a couple hours of chitchat on the state of the world, while saying bye, I foolishly let “I miss you” slip out. I then actually had to hear the words — “you’re there (US), I’m here (Eur)… we’re talking now, and it’s so great, I really miss you. we are such kindred spirits, I can feel the closeness building… but I’m locked in (?separated for 2 yrs but unable/unwilling to create a new life for myself & the kids which would allow space for a real relationship?)… my life & responsibilities are overwhelming here… I don’t want to create unrealistic expectations, that this is leading to romance…”
I won’t bore you w/many more details. I kept my cool, denied that I was thinking long term, tried to sound like I was not forgetting about the way he treated me. but then, as if it wasn’t bad enough, I decided to go for broke and confess that I still love him, and am not willing or able to camouflage my feelings. perhaps it was a mistake, but I truly had reached my limit of denying where I’m really at emotionally for the sake of holding on to false hope. I’m sure this will put the kibosh on the Fake Friendship, and the communications will just end or drift off into nothingness.
doesn’t matter, it was over ages ago. my heart just has not been able to accept it. I used to be more resilient, better at moving on. I haven’t been able to find a solid relationship in 10+ years, this is the first man to come along in maybe 15 who has claimed to be in love w/me, or who ever EVER said he wanted to spend our lives together. so, I’m trying to cut myself some slack. I do avoid those negative media stories about finding love after 40. I know love happens at all ages. but at 46, I have not seen the proof of it in my own life, and I’ve not been hiding under a rock. I’m just very sad, and it’s my own fault for putting my hand back in the fire.
Anoosh, sorry you’re sad.
I am the same age as you and have done all the same stuff , self help books, staying on site… I feel for you and have done as you have done. I went NC at ten months or so because he did the disappearing act for a month. He seemed to be making trips with pals, spending time in city at weekends, not as eager to get back. I now think a woman who resurfaced when it finally went pear shape may have been involved back then… don’t really care anymore.
I went back into the relationship for a further seven months because of ardent persuasion. Classic hot and cold… then if I called him on any plans,he sidled away, literally crab like. Verbal abuse,awful.
Your guy… you did right in my opinion. Its always excrutiating when you get the slide answer but you’ve put it out there. Defined expectations on your part and if the ‘fake friendship’ dwindles. It was ‘fake’. Do not hold out false hope, the ruminating is a place where I will never go again. It’s like signing up for cryogenic chambering…you’re there but you cant live your own life.
He’s given you his reasons Anoosh, and these reasons are not good enough for you. I too had,have let it go, a sense of wasted time…but you, we, have years ahead of us yet. Make your plans, for you. I’m trying to do something new, that I ‘ve never done, play,new walk,talk to new person,start a new debate…every week now.
If, a friendship is on the table with this guy and you can handle that, well and good. From my perspective, I would cut clean.
If you love someone romantically,have hoped for a future and they want different things…it’s not a hint.. its in plain sight. I couldn’t have a friendship with that elephant in the corner.
I don’t know about love’happening’truthfully now, I travel hopefully and take each day as it comes. I recognise the need to go out and see more people again and that’s a start.
Hi Anoosh,
I’m sorry that you’re feeling despondent and that the relationship didn’t materialize the way you wanted it to. I hope you will find it in your heart to hope, love, and receive love again, but love that is reciprocal, that comes to you in its healthiest, blessed, most wholesome form. And that you will see and create joy in your immediate life and surroundings.
Most of these so-called friendships tend to be quite dubious affairs, the EUMs try to weave their way back into our good books, I’m inclined to believe that many of them are drawn more to the idea of possibilities in a non-committal way, rather than the possibility of consummation and connection.
I relate to your sentiments of wanting “true love” to prevail and conquer all odds, the difficulty in accepting the reality of a break-up. Maybe this paralysis, this inability to move on, really alludes to something far deeper than needs to be addressed, something extraneous to the relationship? I try to frame it in this way for myself. Please don’t be too hard on in calling yourself a fool. If there’s anything at all, you have been emotionally honest and the depth of one’s feelings for another, the capacity to feel for another, is not something to be trivialized.
I read BR quite religiously from the second half of last year, thought I’d healed after 10 months of no physical meetings and that my ex’s last callous disappearing act was enough to piss me off for life, got into a new relationship late last year with someone truly remarkable and special, loving, emotionally available. I didn’t read self-help books but I did devote time to journalling, trying to understand myself, my tendencies, my past. But all this still didn’t prevent me from regressing to EU hell again, I thought I was “safe” after 10 months of not meeting but I got sucked into a libidinal vortex of his flirtatiousness, which culminated in me crying in his arms this summer, telling him how much I missed him and never forgot him. I regret my confession (should have kept it to myself) crossed appropriate boundaries, hurt my new partner and myself, while he has disappeared again and I am enforcing a permanent NC. Some friendships aren’t possible. It’s taken me 3 lousy summers.
Take care, Anoosh.
thanks so much Lynda & Jade for writing :). helps tremendously to read about your experiences, and to feel less alone, more hopeful. I was on that path of living life for myself for many years, just tried to be optimistic, hoped that one day I’d find love, meet a wonderful companion. I had no idea at this stage a heartbreak would have such a serious, long lasting impact on me. Somehow I just trusted this man, believed we were right for each other, never felt so sure in my life. I didn’t ignore the hints or red flags, but it had been so long since I was in an “in love” relationship, I often second guessed myself. His marriage was ending after 15 years, has 3 children, I’ve had neither of those — so I kept deferring to him, not wanting to appear “needy”. he was an old friend from college, and I felt safe, as he moved mountains to be with me. Never has someone taken me on such a big Future Faking trip, or pulled the rug out as he did. it was such a shock. and only with my most serious long term relationship (5+ years) did we remain friends after splitting (that eventually had to end too). I’ve never been in this situation, where there is such a long period of contact after a breakup. thanks for the good wishes, means a lot today. gotta keep reading BR! 🙂
anoosh
many of us have fallen into the trap of confusing longterm contact with genuine intentions. The million dollar question is – is this progressing?
Babies are conceived and born, Olympic stadiums completed, wars won or lost in the time it takes for these clowns to set up one meeting and turn up.
Actually snorted with laughter in the car reading your comment Grace which has caused an odd look from the boyf.
I’ve been thinking of you also Anoosh. I had long suspected that there was more than harbouring hope going on here and that you were in what can only be regarded as low level contact, high level feelings territory.
Let me tell you something that eats up entire lives and causes an immense amount of denial that you just don’t realise until you stop – hope. Not wiping out hope in its entirety for everything – you’ve been holding out hope for a relationship that not only hurt you badly and has been over for a long time, but he pulled some fakey stuff on you too. Hope that someone will make good on the promises they’ve already failed on and holding out even the remotest hope is dangerous because it’s an investment that wreaks havoc in your life. It says that you still want someone that treated you poorly. Anoosh, I’ve met you. You’re quite frankly lovely. This man doesn’t deserve you – not even your hopes. Stop giving him more of your airtime. Hugs x
Nat
All these things have actually happened while I’ve been waiting for men to come good on their “promises”! In particular, the Olympic swimming arena was completed while I waited for the MM to turn up just once for something we “planned”. Of course, I’m glad now that he was a repeat no show.
Many times, though, there weren’t even any “promises” – it was just me hanging on solo! Hope is a wonderful thing when you’re looking for your first job, supporting a loved one through sickness, starting out a marriage, having your first baby, building a house. But In these non-relationships, it is just not appropriate. Hope for better things. Hope for MORE that what you can extract from an unwilling man/an AC/ someone else’s husband.
When I was holidaying with my brother and his wife, a number of times we would be rushing home to get dinner ready for when she got back from work (my brother works shifts). They’ve been living together for over five years and he is still excited to see her and to do things for her. It shouldn’t be like pulling teeth just to get someone to acknowledge your existence.
Grace — that is so funny, the Olympic Stadium! so very true, time passes quickly, thinking about that a lot lately. I could’ve run for Congress & served my first term already 🙂 when this thing started it was early in Obama’s 1st term. now we’re going into another election year, mon dieu!
progressing? of course not. in the long run, it might be better for me in this situation, that we were able to heal some stuff before cutting off for good. I don’t know. I feel lighter today.
NML — saw this comment after I read today’s post on trading down (brilliant)! you’re so right, I love that concept, “low level contact, high level feelings territory.” that could apply to many situations, I bet. when I let the door open for communication, I honestly tell you, he had done such a 180, had been such an AC for so long, I never ever expected it would turn into bimonthly “friendly” chit chat, that he would be the one pursuing that. I mean, yes, I look forward to the Father Ted dvd’s, but gimme a break, it’s so obvious we are not palsy-walsy’s, why bother for goodness sake? the great thing is, I’ve had since April to absorb BR, and this time I know how to answer that question, to see his behavior (and *mine*!) much more clearly. yes, I am 100% responsible for not extinguishing that ember of hope. but this time I am not wondering why/what/how/where about him, I am not blaming myself for failing, or dwelling on rejection. I resisted the fleeting impulse to tell him all about himself 😉 I did say, after he gave his little schpiel about “I’m here, you’re there”– “umm, I think that’s how it was from the beginning when you decided to pursue…” (couldn’t help it, I’m a NYer, sometimes ya just gotta zing).
you’re absolutely right on your assessment and about the dangers of hope. nope, no more airtime, no interest in the “friend” thing with exEUM/AC’s, makes me feel like I’m in high school w/mad, unrequited love/crush on a guy who likes all your girlfriends (*never you*) where your stomach is in knots all damn day. and thx for the hugs & nice complement! yes, I am kind of lovely 😉 I know I deserve so much better. thank goodness for this site, the amazing feedback, I’ve passed it on many times. Love, Anoosh {sorry for the novella, need editor!}
Can I just ask? NML or ladies/guys?
What kind of hint does aggression give off in a relationship? And when is aggression a problem?
I just need this knowledge for future relationships. In my last my ex would at times get very angry and once he banged a wall to try and get me to shut up during an discussion he didn’t want to continue, was critical and sometimes he often had that very intimidating silent anger where they look like they look like they are on the verge of having a temper tantrum or want to kill you (I’m sure some ladies here might know what I’m talking about) :O..we weren’t together that long either.
I grew up around domestic violence so sometimes I feel it hard to know where to draw a line and often wonder does aggression not become a problem until they actually hit you?
What hint does this behavior put across, when does it become a problem and how do you know when you should bail out?
When you feel uncomfortable and when it’s progressively worse. Also I wouldn’t judge it by your childhood standards – if I’d done that, I’d be in an Ike & Tina situ by now. Your own childhood isn’t a benchmark for aggression – general standards of socially acceptable behaviour are. The truth is that most people, unless they have a high aggression threshold (ie those who have normalised poor situations) find this behaviour offensive, nevermind aggressive. Banging the wall? Oh hell no! Creepy silent anger? Yeah that’s someone trying to restrain themselves from opening up a can of whupass on you. That’s not anger – that’s rage being stifled. His behaviour, btw Sara, isn’t hinting. It’s direct. Of course, if you want to take it as a hint, I’d take it that he’s hinting that he’s got a bad temper, that it will increase, that he will ensure you experience negative consequences if you disagree/don’t do as you’re told. Get out. Fast.
Also “does aggression not become a problem until they actually hit you.” – Scary. Please go and talk to a professional. I hear from many women who experience what can only be deemed as emotional warfare. Manipulation, control, fear of reprisals, fear of feeling the angry reaction – it can actually be emotionally and even physically crippling. It’s a problem already – hitting is not the only form of aggression or abuse. What are you waiting for him to do? Pin you to the floor with his foot in your chest? To drag you around by your hair or bite or punch you? That’s a terrible thing to do to yourself – to wait for someone to get worse.
Thank you NML for your response,
I am outta that relationship now, I took the hint..I don’t wanna find myself back in another one like it so I am trying I guess to de-normalise things before I get involved with something new–I do have a high aggression threshold because of exposure to that kind of behaviour as a child. I see a professional but it’s a of work in progress and although I recognize aggression is not normal I still find it very difficult to get my head around.
It also baffled me that we were together such a short time and he was already behaving like that so it made sense to blame myself. He blamed me too-‘you make me angry’-Reading here and talking about it helps me see that this wasn’t the case and I can’t make anyone feel anything they do not want to feel or do anything that they do not want to do.
I find that Anger is based on some kind of fear,Fear of what I dont know..
My ex was an angry rager,He along with with his family told me that from day one.They would say”DONT POKE THE BEAR”.
I guess I needed to find this out for myself,and oh did I find out..
I could list several instances,but it would take forver,but it ws not only outward anger,it was like you said,silent angry looks,belittling,making you feel as if it was you who brought this out in them..
There was on time,when I was moving into my new apt,that he had asked me to stay at his house for the night as I was all packed,the next dya he had to work so Ihad his key.I told him I would be there when he got home to make sure he got in..When he got home he was silently angry,not talking,being as rude as could be…So I left again feeling like WTF??
2 hours later he shows up ay my house ans says to me “you wanna know why I wsa mad?”Im like yes sure…He says”Because I knew you were going to be there when I got home”….
I told him to use the door if he was so unhappy,and he just sat there…That is the only time I stood up for myself,,,and you know 2 hours later after still sitting here,he asked me to stay the night at his place?????????OMG…WHAT A FUCKSTICK!!!!!
@ brenda Yeah that’s the thing, when the things they criticise, get angry or rage about aren’t even rational…like getting angry over me not being at a correct angle in a photograph he was taking of us (ugh strong hint to be taken there).
Perhaps the fear you refer to for many men is a fear of loss of control.
I am taking hints and it feels good!
1)One fomer EUM whom I lightly dated 3 years ago is trying to reel me back in…with Facebook ‘likes’ and a sentence or two in a private FB message, lol! HELL NO.
2)A guy I’ve known causally for a long time approached me at an art reception tagged along with me for a bit and we exchanged biz cards. He said, call me. I told him to call ME. He didn’t call. I tore up his card. HINT TAKEN.
3)Was at a recent event. Nice guy started to chat. It became pretty clear that he is a alcoholic as he told me he’d stopped at a bar after work for a few drinks before attending the event…and he was on his third drink there that I saw (vodka). HINT TAKEN= he asked for my number, I told him I think we might not be a match. Wish I had learned to say that long ago!
Oh, god. I’m so over him it’s laughable.
He can say anything to me and I have no emotional reaction to it. Just a mental eye-roll 🙂
Next Saturday I’m getting the Japanese symbol for “Resurrection” tatooed on my shoulder. I’ve never gotten a tatoo before. Not sure who is more exited – my best friend (also tatoo-less) or me. She actually said to me (and we’ve been best friends for almost 30 years) “YOU SHOULD DO IT! THIS IS THE FIRST THING YOU HAVE EVER DONE FOR YOU!!!!”.
Gosh, do you know I never knew that. Never even thought that? But I AM doing this for me. I was at rock bottom both physically and mentally. I thought I was dying. We couldn’t figure out why my health was going to crap. It’s a Resurrection.
I may not need to post anymore. WOW. I’m happy 🙂
Thank you Natalie, Thank you BR, Thank you all you ladies who post.
He sent me this yesterday …. you are the sexiest, softest, kindest, sweetest, best kisser in the world. It got nothing out of me. I see it for what it is. Just words. He is STILL WITH HER. If I were all those things, then why am I not the main woman. Oh, Right, because he’s a LIAR. 🙂
I had a grand chuckle. Poor her. I feel sorry for his wife.
Ladies, you can get there. DO STUFF. Put yourself out there. I’ve made myself SO BUSY, and met so many great people who think I’m great too. Who build me up. And I’m not just talking about men. I’ve opened up to better relationships with girlfriends, I’ve MADE THE EFFORT. IT WORKS!!! Listen to Natalie. She’s RIGHT! Love to all of you and Luck xoxox
You sound deliriously light, Resurrection. It scares me how fluctuating one’s emotional state can be, in NC stage that sometimes I’m not sure how to trust myself or what to make of my feelings. I hope that this lightness will continue to stay with you (as well as your graciousness) and that you will never slide backwards, being the samurai fighter you are.
I got my tattoo when I ‘came back to life’ after a major nervous breakdown/workplace bullying incident. I won that one – I outstayed my bullies and went on to professional success – but in the process I really went through the blender.
So I went and got my tattoo – my ‘rebirth mark’. It’s like we do need to make some kind of statement about survival, and I totally get what you mean.
I’ve been tempted since then to get more (they ARE addictive!) but haven’t, because I’ve learned now to put the marks on the inside of me instead – kind of like the measuring line when you were a kid, of how tall you’d gotten.
So they don’t all have to be on the outside!
Crazybaby,
Take it from someone who’s just out of something very similar. He doesn’t want a relationship, he doesn’t love you. It is hard to accept, but it is unfortunately so.
I have been through the same BS with a guy for the past 6 months and did not take the hints. I was thrown off by the infamous hallmarks of a relationship and, since he was having a load of personal trouble (in the shape of his shutting up his business and having no new job lined up, piles of debts, creditors hounding him, etc) I did the whole act of being the perfect girlfriend, understanding, patient, ego stroking, yada yada. He would send confusing signals that had me second-guessing myself constantly (believe me: also not a nice place to be), blew cold when I was approaching him and then blew hot when I withdrew (to let him sort himself out, as you did), but I was weak and kept using his shitty business situation as an excuse for his poor behavior. I assumed that since he told me EVERYTHING about his life (I even had the password to his only email account!! Never used it, but whatever), he would have no trouble telling me point blank if he didn’t want to commit, especially since he knew I was in love and wasn’t playing games with him. MAJOR ERROR OF JUDGMENT. I found out he was flirting with another woman in Facebook, all while telling his usual tales of woe to me. Natalie is right: GAME OVER, NO CREDITS with a guy who, on top of it all, keeps you as an option and is looking to shag someone else.
It hurts like hell. But you cannot put your life on hold for these assholes. There’s better out there and you certainly deserve honesty, care, respect and true love. I hope we both find it!!
This post hit me in the gut. Over the course of a long, long relationship I was managed with hints. In my case, it was very hard to “take” the hints because of complicated gaslighting. If I got upset that he had done something fun and not invited me, he said, “you’re always invited; you just choose not to be part of my life.” When he was flaky and hard to get ahold of, he might come over and say, very hurt/angry, “I’ve been asking you for *years* to move in with me and I’m tired of being left alone.” (But he had never asked.) He would treat me with icy coldness, almost disdain, and I would retreat with a combination of bravado (I’m not putting up with that!) and that stomach-dropping horror/grief. Then I would get emails telling me I obviously preferred sulking to “a nice, loving relationship” and since that was my choice “don’t blame me when you find yourself alone in the life you’ve chosen.” Panicked at having “ruined everything” I would redouble my loving-girlfriend efforts, which he would reluctantly accept, while giving off “too little, too late” hints.
I began to so seriously doubt my own judgment and intuition that I spent perhaps the first year of post-breakup therapy talking about how I had sabotaged my relationship when he loved me so much and I had hurt him so badly. I am serious. I would cry myself sick in bed, thinking of all the “chances” he had given me and how I had been an ice princess, always displeased with his efforts and setting the bar too high.
I was manipulated into believing I was failing at a mutual, committed relationship that was always just-about to be mine, if only I hadn’t done/said or had done/said something slightly different. So I ended up blaming myself for attempting to protect myself and having *some* boundaries. But it was a no-win situation.
I had never encountered anyone like this. I had had a series of mutual, monogamous 2-4 year relationships. One of the effects of being in this was re-evaluating those. What if I have never actually been in a real relationship? What if everything was not what it seemed? I mean twilight zone territory. And if I got into this one now, didn’t that mean I was getting sick, or must have always been sick and not known it?
I’d like to add that rereading our emails can still do my head in. All the weird, mean stuff was in person or on the phone. The emails tell a tale of an earnest, loving man whose good-faith efforts at closeness are being capriciously spurned. And that is truly how he saw it.
There’s like this one exchange where I say let’s have dinner this weekend. And he replies, “I want to have dinner *every* night, but then I don’t get what I want, do I?” Feeling angry, but also somehow manipulated, I would not reply. And so another dinner would not be had, and I would blame myself later for my pissy self-righteousness and how it prevented what I most wanted. But, looking more clearly, what really happened? I invited him to dinner, and he did not acknowledge the invitation.
I remember one email I got on I think memorial day weekend on the Sunday. “Well, I turned down an invitation to go out of town because I thought we would be together. Just another way I put my life on hold waiting for you. I won’t wait forever.” But *he hadn’t contacted me to actually make any plans* — nor had I him because by this point I was incredibly confused like walking through a minefield. And yet that email sent me into a tailspin of self-recrimination. Why oh why was I so withholding? I could have had a lovely weekend with my love and instead I was in a “he better step up” snit. And at the same time, I didn’t understand why these emails, which seemed to offer love, made me so incredibly angry. Later, I would wonder why I hadn’t just picked up the phone and said, “oh, sweetie, it’s so sad we both wanted to spend the weekend together and got our wires crossed. why don’t you come over?” I would berate myself for false pride and sob, “what have I done? how could I have pushed him away when I loved him?”
It’s like that foreground-background face-vase image; my perception would flicker. He was pulling away. No it was me. I’m still not clear.
During a particularly mind-bending episode I won’t even get into, save to say I was actually throwing up every morning and had to take a week off from work, I found an emergency therapist. She said something that rang with bell-like clarity. “He doesn’t want what he says he wants.” That had never occurred to me.
Quite recently he told me, almost as an aside, “I was done with our relationship three years before I told you, but you were in denial.” [But he made sure I was invested and guilt-ridden.] All of this stuff was during those years. And those were the last years I could have conceivably (pun intended) had a child. Something that he has now decided is the most important thing in life and intends to pursue elsewhere. He “hopes it’s not too late” for me.
DON’T LET THIS HAPPEN TO YOU. THE HINT IS ACTIONS AS MUCH AS WORDS.
They’re way back, but Natalie did some excellent posts basically saying you should ignore words, especially when entering a relationship, and concentrate on a guy’s actions.
The problem is that EUMs screw with your head so much that you lose all sense of what’s normal, i.e. someone calling you, arranging something, turning up, having a nice time, doing it again (as with any true friend). In my EUM recovery phase I remember a friend of mine (platonic, the point is he’s male) realizing we would be traveling at various times and making arrangements to see me a whole TWO WEEKS in advance (and it happened). At the time I thought it was simply incredible, but once you treat it as normal you just kick everything else to the kerb.
Ixnay, you say it as it is with that comment ‘All the weird mean stuff was in person or on the phone’…100%. E mail and text allow them to be an alter ego, your dream feeder…
The manipulation of responsibility and blame of these guys, particularly if they have verbal dexterity in their strap- on toolkit, can be mindfckery in extremis. You are left reeling.
My take on this, is, they want to remain as the good guy, the gentleman, the social success. They will confuse you into reacting or complaining and then say…’ I did not mean it like that.
You go back over texts, e mails, attempt phone call clarity and they are still spouting conundrums. You pull the plug because naturally you have had enough and they can say’ She dumped. moved away. let me down.’ This is for the next girlfriend or their social circle.
Somewhere in their warped social construct of a brain a vulture circles. No-one can mind fcuk like that for so long, eventually they fcuk themselves.
Nat, you mean business: Focus back on us!
Big smile – I love it! You make it FUN.
As Christmas time is approaching – I get more and more the picture of one of these old steam engine locomotives with a big snow pusher in front to clear the way of rubble and snow. You go ahead and it is such a joy to hop onto your train (of thoughts) and have a wild ride. Who would have guessed that telling the truth and speaking one’s mind can be (though tough at times) so funny.
Again I think we should take off our gender glasses and stop insisting that they HAVE TO tell us verbally. If Guywanese means they talk through their actions, fine with me as long as I don’t fool myself with how to translate it. In doubt we offer our translation and check on him. “Did I get you right, by doing x/ saying y, you mean (insert what it means in clear cut terms)? If they hem and haw we know what’s up. Let’s not forget, men are calorie savers! They naturally don’t communicate the obvious; to them all their lines are obvious and convey all information necessary. Let’s learn Guywanese! Foreign language skills always come in handy. 😉
Guy: met in New York in July. He and I are both now in the same country in Africa, having been sent here for elections-related projects (separate contracts with separate organisations. We have both been coming to this country for work for years, although never met until this past summer.)
For the past few weeks he was out in the bush and I was in the city. He is now back in the city, and we have been hanging out. All in all, we have been dating for about four months, although I didn’t see him much while he was in the bush – but we exchanged daily texts and emails a few times a week.
At no point have we ever discussed our ‘relationship’ or defined it. The other day, while sleeping together, I noticed that I was starting to freeze up. This generally signifies to me that there is a gap between what I am feeling emotionally and what I am expressing physically. I have never been able to do the sex without intimacy thing.
So, I told him this, but we were both in a hurry to get to work, and we agreed we’d talk it through. We have not done since. Last night, we got together and made dinner and watched a movie, and I found myself probing to figure out where he’s at in our relationship. I asked him if, when our contracts are up (shortly), he feels like heading to a beach for a weekend or something. I travel a lot, with friends, with guys I’ve dated, so it wasnt a big deal to ask something like that for me.
But he froze. Actually, he had a panic attack. He lay there, crying silently for hours and would not tell me what was wrong. Eventually said that he travelled with an ex and it was awful and made him die inside and he would have reservations about ever doing it again. But it was the anxiety and panic that concerns me. There have been other occasions; whenever I have hinted that I wanted to talk about where we’re at, he clams up, gets very anxious.
I didnt know what to do, but I told him that if he wanted to talk about it, I’m there. But then I realised: it was me, and my desire to get clarity on ‘us’, that sparked the panic. So I stepped back. We sat there in silence for a really long time. I eventually said that maybe we should stop seeing each other if this is how I’m making him feel. He said he didn’t want that, but would not say what he did want, beyond ‘I like you, I care abut you, I want to keep hanging out.’
My contract is up…
I like the passage with the sentences – it’s a very compact way to actually recognize and face those hints. And it’s great as the words are as simple as the hint to find. I’m sure there are a lot more to add.
Here are my favorites:
– I cannot talk about emotions (don’t confront me with yours or mine)
– I have problems meeeting up someone (WTF?)
– You are very important to me (the more they don’t show the more often they repeat)
– I text/message you whenever possible (means 1 or 2 times a week, a month, whatever)
– I am a very kind person – while your communication with them tends to be rough a lot (from their side)
Alltime favorite: My longest relationship was a few month / 2 years when they are 30+
I am so impressed by all of the insight and confidence I’ve found on this blog. Wow. Perhaps I’m living in denial myself—maybe someone could offer an opinion? The fact I’m even asking the question might be a clue….
Anyway, I’ve been in a relationship for 14 months. At first I thought my boyfriend was heaven-sent. The most affectionate, caring, thoughtful man I’ve ever known. He sent me flowers and candy every single week. My co-workers even jokingly referred to my office as the “greenhouse.” Every week I would get love letters in the mail and romantic evenings out. After five months, we were engaged.
In June, I discovered he had lied to me about watching porn. I was absolutely sick. Not so much with the porn thing, but the fact that he had so convincingly lied to me about it. I broke off the engagement, although we still continued to date. Things haven’t been the same since. I’ll be the first to admit that I was VERY hostile towards him when I found out about the porn/lies. I said some very hurtful things after I initially found out about everything. There were constant fights, and he resorted to saying “f*uck you” and hanging up on me when things got intense. That really concerned me.
The main cause of the fights was me questioning him (in his words, “interrogating” him) about things that seemed fishy to me—his meeting other girls for lunch, certain fb posts from other girls, etc. And perhaps I was being paranoid. But I felt if he had lied to me about the porn, he could be lying to me about other things too. I just wanted the truth.
On our one year anniversary, back in September, he broke up with me. Three weeks later, we were back together..kinda. Basically, I feel like I’ve been putting in 110% and he’s been putting in 5%. Within the first two weeks, I literally initiated every single communication. I paid for us to go to weekly counseling and invited him out on dates. He’s started to initiate communication, but he seems so stoic and acts completely disinterested when we’re together.
He also takes ages to respond to text messages/phone calls. For instance, I texted him this morning telling him that I loved him and that I hoped he had a good day. Four hours later and I still haven’t heard from him. Am I just being nit-picky? He seems to think so….
I know this will probably sound incredibly naïve, but I honestly can’t understand how…
@Laurie
mamagirl please move on from this man he’s too lame to tell you that he wants to break up anr keep you on a string! But he is very obviously over and done with you as a love interest.
Send him a text saying I had fun, we want different things, nice knowing you, good-bye. Then NC. Or that’s what I’d do.
Broke up with you on your one year anniversary? Oh heck no. Over and done, dusted. Choose yourself, ditch this man, fast! Please let him go he’s poison, you’d have a horrible holidays with him torturing you.
Laurie…
Sorry, this is called the fade…painful, painful painful. You can bring it to a close two ways;
You can do as FlowerWhite says and send him a message saying you want different things and quit.
Or/ Tell him that you don’t feel like having sex with him again until you feel emotionally close to him….he’ll disappear back to porn and fb’s and you’ll see what he’s really about?
Personally I would send that message.
Thanks so much, Flower White & Lynda. God, that is so painful to see in black in white! I just don’t understand how someone could treat me like a queen for nine months and then make very little effort to keep the relationship going. I mean, this is the same guy who just a few months ago bought me a ring and told me he wanted to spend the rest of his life with me. It just hurts so much to think that he’s fallen out of love with me. I can’t believe I f*cked that up.
Lynda, I actually haven’t slept with him in about a month. When we did sleep together after having been broken up for about three weeks, I regretted it and told him that I wanted to wait until I felt closer to him emotionally. He’s still here…for now.
Yesterday he told me that I’m expecting too much. I didn’t realize that asking him to initiate communication and dates was too much, but he thinks it is. He said I expect him to behave like a machine and that I don’t care about his feelings because I’m too focused on my own unhappiness. He says I’ve put him under a lot of pressure. That got me thinking that maybe I’m not being patient enough? Or maybe he’s just looking for an excuse to leave. And maybe I just want to believe the former, because accepting the later does absolutely nothing for my self-esteem. I’m so confused.
Laurie
He’s not looking for an excuse to leave. YOU SHOULD BE SO LUCKY! I wish he would do the decent thing and break it off. And then ignore you 100%. I know how it goes – even if he did break it off you’d still be waiting for him. You might even send him a text or poke him on FB. Then you’d be back where you are now. Waiting for him.
He’s looking for a way to keep you in his life with minimum effort on his part. While FBing other women. While texting other women. While dating other women. While lunching other women. While shagging other women. While marrying other women. While having babies with other women. While having affairs with other women.
He feels pressurised because you want more than that. How dare you!!!
Get rid of him.
Thanks, Grace. After reading all of these comments, I feel myself rallying. I may be able to break up with him. I just want to make sure I’m doing it for the right reasons. He did lie about looking at porn, but I have absolutely no evidence that he’s cheated. Girls are constantly posting on his fb wall, and he does have several girls that are friends; but I think it was my own paranoia after the porn incident that caused me to read more into these other situations. I honestly don’t think he’s cheated on me with another woman.
I’m just so sick of initiating the majority of communication; planning all of our dates, and initiating most of our physical contact. You’re so right about him putting in as little effort as possible. That part is very clear to me. But I keep thinking that he’s going to get over this. For most of our relationship, he was showering me with attention and affection. It’s just been these past three months that have been horrible. I don’t want to do anything premature—especially since I still love him.
Thanks, Grace. After reading all of these comments, I feel myself rallying. I may be able to break up with him. I just want to make sure I’m doing it for the right reasons. He did lie about looking at porn, but I have absolutely no evidence that he’s cheated. Girls are constantly posting on his fb wall, and most of his friends are female; but I think it was my own paranoia after the porn incident that caused me to read more into these other situations. I honestly don’t think he’s cheated on me with another girl.
I’m just so sick of initiating the majority of communication; planning all of our dates, and initiating most of our physical contact. You’re so right about him putting in as little effort as possible. That part is very clear to me. But I keep thinking that he’s going to get over this. For most of our relationship, he was showering me with attention and affection. It’s just been these past three months that have beeen horrible. I don’t wat to do anything premature–especially since I still love him.
Laurie,
You didn’t actually do anything premature because this guy is still there.. He figured you for ‘a doorstopper’way back…he knows you will always keep the door open, whatever crap he pulls.
My previous comment to you was ‘tongue in cheek’, but maybe I didn’t express it clearly… I don’t think you should even bother to withhold sexual booty…press the eject button.
It’s not about the porn..per se. It’s about the fact that he doesn’t care a whit whether you like it or not…this will just get worse, believe me. This guy’s a keeper, believe you me, he’s one of those cockroaches we regularly mention on site who would survive Nuclear Holocaust…
laurie
If you follow any of the stories here, you’ll see it’s YOUR story. They always start by blowing hot – flowers, compliments, attention, marriage talk, baby talk etc. Then they start blowing cold. The woman starts chasing HIM. Then she gets fed up and “punishes” him with silence. Then he comes back. She’s happy until he disappears again. And so on.
The right reason to dump him is that he ignores you. That’s a very good reason to end a relationship. I’m sure it’s ended 25-year marriages and so it should. There doesn’t have to be cheating but I can tell you that all this female attention he’s courting doesn’t look promising on the fidelity front.
What will help your self-esteem is knowing what you want and deserve. And walking when you’re not getting basic respect.
Be careful of “patience”. He isn’t a flower that will bloom, or a child you’re teaching to read, or a sick animal. He is a GROWN man and he is ACTIVELY choosing to behave this way. I am sure you mean well but don’t patronise him by assuming he doesn’t know what he’s doing. He knows.
Natalie, I am 50 something and have been separated from my husband for three years, empty nest for about two years, had a death of a sibling in the last year and I live alone. I had come to terms that my marriage was over. To make a long story short, I slept with my best friend, I’ve know known for about 16 years. Big mistake. I know you’ve heard it a million times, but I felt safe and he would be careful with my heart. All the hints were there, I just ignored them. He became my boss a few years ago, but we have always worked around each other. The “no contact” is difficult at best, but I am dealing with it. He is married w/kids and about ten years younger than me. I have been married for 22 years and never cheated, so this really took a tole on me once I realized it was just a “hit it and quit it” situation. It has been about four months now of trying to figure out what was happening to me, because I no longer recognized myself. I was “emotionally cracked-out”. I felt strange about it, but I got professional counseling , because I had tried very, very hard but could not do it alone. I found this site about 2 months ago and have learned a great deal about trust, happiness and boundaries. I am now taking responsibility for what I allowed to happen to me. The feeling was like an addiction, I thought nothing like this could ever happen to me. I felt like I had crashed and was burning slowly. I understood instantly something was wrong with me but I was to caught up in the chase to stop . I love myself and could not understand why or how I could neglect myself that way. I felt imprisioned by feelings that only I was feeling. I could see the me I once knew was just watching from a distance and saying “what the hell are you doing!!”. It took me a while to realize..I was holding the only “key” to free myself all the time. “Diva’s” can’t deal with being locked up. I forgave myself for bad judgement and paid the cost of a valuable lesson learned. Thank you so much Natalie.
I recently was told during a casual conversation with new guy, ” I am a closed book and my ex used to get jealous that my good friend (married female) new more about me than she did. It became a huge problem and I avoided my good friend because of it, I will never do that again.” Is this a hint? It made me feel weird when he said it but I couldn’t put my finger on why….my internal fears, his subtle threat or am I reading to much into him having a healthy boundary? This has not been an issue with us at all and I have met her several times. Is this a hint that his girlfriends tend to be in the shadow of the female friend and this was a heads up I better live with it? Otherwise, this guy has been consistent and things have been smooth between us for 4 months. I have really failed at reading hints in the past and still feel wobbly on the new legs in this department. I post here often but changed my name because of a nagging feeling I am being ‘read’. Someone recently referred to me by my BR name in person….which is similar to my email name but little hairs stood up on my neck for some reason.
@Forget
4 months in and he reveals that he is a closed book has a best friend female friend who is married? And is basically telling you he’ll be emotionally closed off to you?
Dear, if that was me I’d be listening to my gut and call it off, you have time. Chose YOURSELF FIRST. Love is calm, makes you feel secure and good. Best wishes. Billions of men in the world
Forget Me Not
I agree with Flower White.
It’s actually good of him (in his own twisted way) to tell you what the situation is. If you don’t listen to him, you’ll be kicking yourself x months/years down the line.
“WHY didn’t I listen when he told me that this Married Woman is more important to him than I am!”
You have very low standards if you think that four months of consistency makes up for that. Consistency is the bare minimum (even though few of us are getting it).
Thanks Flower and Grace. If I am honest, we have gotten along great these four months and he has been reliable…always calls, shows up and is affectionate and considerate to me, and has generally been very sweet, but I haven’t felt like I’m really getting to know him. He doesn’t talk to me much about who he is. I haven’t either, I thought maybe this was both of us taking it slow and taking our time but is more like having walls and not letting me in at this point. I do think its worth talking to him about it, which is uncomfortable for me but is one of those hurdles I have to learn to climb. Time to be honest and real without fear… have a conversation and act on what’s revealed. I don’t know how a normal relationship progresses so feel a little unequipped to judge the mile markers and timing.
Girl…sounds like you are talking yourself into it. To me it sounds fishy. 4 months and he doesn’t talk about who he is??? Well, this is the tough-love site. Really, you don’t need anymore convo with him to know who he is, hopefully you won’t delude yourself and excuse what sounds like a dead-end relationship.
Wow, he told you up front that from the get-go he is emotionally unavailable, especially to the one woman who was supposed to be the most important to him – his ex! So from the outset he managed down your expectations and it sounds like you accepted it. Run! Run as if the hounds of hell are after you cause if you stay with this guy, you’re always going to be on shifting sands with him. He told you this married woman is the most important woman to him. Believe him! There are 7 billion people on the planet, half of them are men. The one thing we’ve got plenty of is people. There’s a guy out there somewhere who would just adore to make YOU the number one priority in his life. Dump the EUM!
ForgetMeNot
Talk to him if you must but I think you have enough information. Don’t confuse talk with action. I know it’s anathema to a lot of women but talk is just talk. Especially if the other party isn’t even listening. And if we’re not listening either because we’re trying so hard to make something be what it isn’t.
“What’s a nice girl like you doing with a guy like me?” The MM said that to me. What does it mean, exactly? Was he a bad person? I am now struggling to figure out what was real and what wasn’t. He was always worried about “scaring me off.” I guess he meant me no good. In the end, I chose not to engage with him and now he is avoiding me. I feel rejected because he is not pursuing. But I keep reminding myself what Natalie says: always chose yourself. Being involed with someone that belongs to someone else was demoralizing. So every day now, I chose me.
@Daisy…MM are like poison. Leave him be! I don’t understand how women can allow themselves to be slotted as second class citizens, being the mistress to a MM.
There are BILLIONS of single men on the planet all you need is ONE. In time, you will see that you should never again dally with a MM>
Daisy
What’s real:
He is married.
What he means:
Why would a self-respecting, attractive girl with prospects allow me to **** her, knowing that I’m married?It must mean that she doesn’t have as much self-respect as one would think. So I’ve got the golden ticket to treat her as my convenient bit on the side.
He probably sees himself as too nice to say something as blunt as this (though he has no issue DOING it to you) , so he trots out this cliche, tailor-made for this situation.
You’re in desperate place when you find yourself analysing a CLICHE. Cut and run.
I printed out the list. Later I am planning to check the ones that apply (used to apply) to me that I did not recognize as hints.
I. changed. my. phone. number.
This blog hit me hard because its sooo true. I dated a guy recently (have been NC for 6 weeks) and because he future faked me into a whirlwind 2 month relationship with him I just chose not to hear the hints and thought I could work through them. Whenever I suggested we meet up or spend time together he always had an excuse e.g. I’ve got to work late baby, or I’m meeting up with the guys on that day, or I’m gonna spend time with my family/kids (which he kept completely separate from me). It took him standing me up one afternoon whilst I was all dressed up and ready to go. He just texted me and said “My sister is ill and I need to take her to the hospital, so I will have to cancel” he waited until 20 mins before I was due to meet him. I just don’t know why I allowed him to do that! The signs were there, why didn’t I just take heed and run! I’m not properly over him but I’m nearly there. Although I have been NC, he hasn’t contacted me either and that still hurts a bit. 🙁
Sorry to hear that Stephanie and it only gets better from here. Please do NC with him.
Some men just like stringing women along, sick, big egos. Flush, delete, ignore!
This is an excellent and very timely post. Since I started “seeing” the EUM -aka- “Lying Hell” I became an emotional, nervous wreck. Why? Because he kept throwing these mental darts, red flags, and hints at me and I continued to avoid them for the fear of being alone. It is pretty sad, but, I would scour the web for “How Do You Know If He’s Into You” “How do you know if he’s falling in love” etc looking for validation on the mixed messages that I was receiving. However, I ignored the very blatant message he said from the beginning “I’m not looking for a relationship.” I heard those words, but he might as well been talking like the Snoopy “Woompp, woommpp, woompp” because in my mind I was determined he was going to fall madly in love with me because I was different. I even convinced myself that I didn’t need to be in a real relationship and would try this “thing” out that we were doing.
Looking back, all the signs were there.
1. Only communicated via text, email, or evening phone calls
2. Only contacted me when he needed or wanted something (including: dinner, a ride, writing press materials for him, an ego boost, a job, my car, company, sex)
3. All of his communication focused on sex
4. Whenever I’d ask for clarity on the relationship, where I stood, or anything serious he avoided the conversation. Unless, he felt cornered, then he’d conveiently remind me that we were non-committed.
The list can go on and on. Today marks day 4 of NC. I am feeling a lot better and I think I will get over him sooner than I thought. I feel much better prepared to ignore him when he returns home. I still can’t believe this fool actually thought that I would be accepting of him visiting another woman, and then have him return to me as though nothing happened. WOW! Now, that ladies is an EPIC AC!
Dare I say it – my ex-EUM/AC did most of the above, making massive massive hints but worst of all told me out right – I will not marry you – he told me this on many occasions but I still hung in there!!!! I am still experiencing some shock as to how I behaved in that relationship, now I can see the light I really can’t believe that that was me; however, with the help of this site, Natalie and all her wonderful books and all you fabulous ladies I am slowly coming out of this and I really do have to thank the AC for all of his atrocious behavior because it really and truly has shown me that I am so worth more than this, that I am as good as the next person and I am by no means out of the woods yet but I am most certainly 100% better off with that AC out of my life. He doesn’t know it yet and wouldn’t believe it anyways but this is one week now of no contact, I broke my first session of no contact but I sure as hell wont be breaking this, this is it for good now, I am on this site everyday and I am going to do this. Good luck to all of us x
D, don’t feel sad for scouring the web to search for “how do I know if he’s falling for me” etc. I done that as well when I was searching for answers because that’s what these guys do to you! The good thing is that you can look back on this experience, learn from it and ensure it doesn’t happen again. There was a time when I would say my prayers and beg God to bring him back to me! Now that is sad. However, each day I get stronger and stronger and I’m starting to realize that his good looks and charm don’t mean a damn thing! He’s a liar and a coward and I deserve and want better.
Insightful post. I wish I had payed far more attention to the hints and clues the AC was dropping. I am so guilty of this. When it all blew up, I wanted to make every bit of it his fault (and he had done more than his far share of future faking and mixed messages and all that crap), but in the honest born of hindsight, I see that I ignored, excused or denied a lot of hints and clues. What I am looking for now is a healthy relationship where the communication isn’t based on email, text and BS. No more clues. No more people that only speak in riddles. Not only am I paying a lot more attention – I am only playing with grownups from now on.
I finally took the hint with my most recent AC!! As someone who has formerly denied, bargained, spent countless hours scheming and plotting how to make him (flavor of the year) hopelessly fall in love with me, spending – WASTING – endless money, time, and energy, and pride … well, it feels pretty good. 🙂 Just do it!!
There were flags, and then he solidly flaked on me – so I stepped. I was sad that it didn’t work out – really sad, but that’s going away, and eventually, this dude will be a complete non-event in the grand picture of my life.
Thanks to all of you for your stories.
Hints, thank you my eyes have been well and truly opened, and i have you to thank for that. Trust me i have been tested over the last few months. Firstly went nc with the , im not ready for relationship whom i let go. For him to come back and say he missed me and wanted to be with me, only went on to try and manadge me down by not answering calls when he was with certain friends and not calling for weekend , when he usually rang 20 times daily. I didnt even offer explanation, sorry cant talk right now busy. Then old flame started contacting me on FB, rang a couple of times, said he would call on my birthday he didnt made some excuse about how he got caught up with stuff, then hed ring me tom . It never happened. He messaged me a few days later, pls call me . I said sorry busy ,girl stuff , hairdressers ect mabye some other time x. Next date with man who future forward lol. The guy must of not known what hit him on the date, lmao. The bullshit he was coming up with cracked me up. He talked about his holiday home in Jamaica and would i like to go next month , which realistically would be imposible for a single mother with a full time job, and do i have a hat for ascot next year, i pissed myself with laughter, which i feel made him very uncomfortable, I knew from the date that i wouldnt hear from him again, and my instincts were correct. But most importantly i dont give a shit. I really dont, i used to be omg what wrong with me, why are they not calling. Why dosent he want me. But Natalie i have learnt so much from you and i cant thank you enough. I just have one thing more to say, please , please , please write a book for our teenagers, I will buy ten copies. Not only for my daughters but for all my friends as well. I dont want them to be 40 like me to understand this stuff. You truly have a gift for empowering woman, men and opening up their minds in a down to earth , no nonsense way. They dont listen to us they think we are nagging lol.
What a holiday gift to have stumbled onto this treasure trove of support and fantastic advice. I sheepishly wholeheartedly foolishly shamelessly admit to making the MOST ridiculous excuses this week for the AC that just poof! failed to show up for Thanksgiving dinner…after 5 months of NOW what I can see was Fast Forwarding (all week I’ve been telling my girlfriends “HE’s a future faker fast forwarder!”) Actually, I’ve added another F word after that… but after a beautiful wonderful (gag gag) TEXT based crumbcake of a pseudorelationship…I am realising…it really isn’t about me. I was sooo happy to have his “adoration” and “affection” after a brutal, painful divorce (hubby of 14 years faked four deployments to Iraq to run off to Costa Rica, Cancun and anywhere else that starts with a C and is tropical…with other women obviously…at Christmas while the wife and kids cried at the airport…((It could be a cheesy Lifetime movie))I know…nooooo wonder I thought new guy was something special…really it’s not hard to “trade up” when you’ve come from such a painful betrayal. I didn’t find out until I took control of credit cards and iphone. New guy seemed amazing after such a hot mess of a divorce…but the hints were there. We don’t want to see what hurts to look at or hear what is painful to hear. NOW I see…must work on me…focus on me….love me..The hints were there..they were like whispers but I wasn’t quiet enough to listen!
What!? Faked deployments to Iraq to go to tropical vacations with other women! That is straight-up nasty. BR regular readers get to hear a whole bunch of stories about ri-dic-u-lous shit that guys have pulled and stuff that used to surprised me doesn’t now; but I suppose there is always room for new levels of assholishness and your ex’s makes my top ten list of jaw-dropping. Welcome to BR Juliska. Sounds like you’ve had lots of drama and this is a good place to come back to sanity and calm.
I just had to reach out and empathize with you on this one…your story is so similar to mine, and it may benefit you to know that you weren’t alone in believing the crap men can throw at us. My ex of five years told me he was heading to his small rural hometown to visit his mother over the holiday’s leaving me with the dog and HIS kids to care for, when really he jetted off to NYC to play for 6 days with a married ex-girlfriend he had reconnected with via e-mail! The hint i ignored…oh so many, like why do you need your dress clothes & nice wool coat in bo-hunk Saskatchewan?? The upside to my story is I figured it out while he was still there & had half of the house moved out before he got home!! HA HA!! The look on his face 🙂 Of course, like you it has left me with baggage the size of NYC & I am currently struggling with yet another assclown who doesn’t deserve my energy…but I’m learning!
Empowered…..I am from Bohunk Saskatchewan!!!!Too funny…
Brenda
I am definitely a hint taker now. The way I acted with former work dude is embarrassing. I will never be that woman again.
A hint i took today:
When they delete their dating profile (after making plans to meet up) but don’t offer up an alternative way of getting in touch…that’s a hint!
This reminds me of the exchange between Andie and Blane in “Pretty in Pink”, when he’s not returning her phone calls and avoiding her at school and she yells at him, demanding that he just be straight with her about where things are going. And even with her directly in his face he still couldn’t just reveal what was in his heart, he had to make up a lie, what a coward.
Watching that in recent years, that scene really resonates with me as I know exactly what it feels like to feel so frustrated by a man and knowing that things are not going well, all you want for him to do is end it honestly, instead of like a coward. It’s easy to look at how poorly he was acting and forget about the fact that I was the one who had a problem with it. It took me a while to figure out that things would never get any better, but eventually I felt that I was left with no other choice. Learned my lesson I won’t be decoding any hidden messages anymore…
Lia
I think you and all of us need to understand this crucial fact:
“HE MAY NOT WANT TO END IT!”
He may be quite happy stringing you along, having you on standby for when he’s at a loose end. Perhaps he enjoys waching you squirm. He could be conducting an experiment in How Badly Can I Behave and Still Keep her Hanging. Perhaps he likes playing the knight in shining armour for a day or two, but the rest of the time he likes you to leave him alone. Could be he likes having you on the sidelines as light entertainment with no effort on his part. Or he’s hanging on to you until someone “better” comes along.
If you don’t like it, and he likes it, why expect HIM to end it?
If my employer is exploiting me – if I’m working for less than I’m worth, if I’m doing unpaid overtime, if I’ve got the office in the carpark that no-one wants, if I’m doing all the jobs that everyone hates, if I’ve been told conditions will never improve, if I’ve seen other employees being treated better – do I complain a lot about not being fired … or do I get off my arse and leave?
Maybe he’s not being a coward. Maybe he’s just looking after his own interests. Which is the one valuable lesson we could learn from him.
Good, good call Grace…Put the focus back on our own interests.
So dead on Grace! I used to have periodic hissy fits when my ex would try to get in touch, because I’d be like, “Why is he trying to come back if we’ve spent five years establishing that HE DOESN’T LIKE ME?!” You just provided a very comprehensive list haha! Well done lady.
So true, Natasha. I start to think he reaches out *only to confirm to himself he doesn’t want me.* It’s like getting woo’d, devlued, and discarded within one conversation.
Ixnay, I think he’s probably doing it trying to confirm that YOU still want HIM – that’s how these jerks tend to operate. In any event, these are conversations that none of us need to be having!
“HE MAY NOT WANT TO END IT!”
Of course he didn’t want to end it, he was getting what he wanted out of me without putting much effort in return. I love your honesty. You would have fit right in with my guy friends that were telling me that, I just didn’t want to believe them at the time. Back then, he looked excellent on paper and I thought that I knew him so well, so I refused to see him as an opportunist. I thought I could “see the good in him” that they couldn’t see and figured that he just didn’t know what he wanted yet, and all that jazz (what a difference a couple years makes). And when I finally did leave he went through the usual motions to try to real me back in to maintain the status quo. You know, the empty promises, hollow apologies, the usual. But when I started asking more questions and he didn’t have any answers I figured that things weren’t working in my favor, so I bounced. I think I was too hopeful and too close to the situation for me to see the bigger picture, as it wasn’t until I was able to escape the relationship that things started to become clearer to me. I was so focused on him and what he was doing that I didn’t realize just how unloving and disrespectful I was being towards myself.
I would never want to pursue relationships in the same fashion as he, but I did learn that I’m the one whose responsible for looking out for myself, and no one would ever be able to do a better job than I could do for myself.
Spot on with your analysis of the situation, Grace.
Great, sensible comments Grace. I agree especially with the last line. Apart from looking out for himself, the ex-EUM definitely enforced clear boundaries. I felt like he was a boy-child locked away in his own room, happily absorbed in his own games. But every now and then, he’d run out to the door just to peek if the FBG was still there. Somehow, it was just fun and flattering to know that there was the possibility of a female playmate out there. Who was just waiting and hoping to be invited inside, but of course she never got a toe, let alone a peek in.
Something I’ve always asked is why doesn’t HE end it if he doesn’t want me? Truth is that, sustaining this for him took practically zero effort since I was the one who did all the work. It cost him nothing to maintain it!
The image I got a couple of times was a guy rushing in to give a wobbly plate a spin. Like in a circus.
spot on, my ex EUM was never gonna end things with me, why should he, he had it good, my complete attention with no effort given on his part while all the time he was looking around for someone that he thought was better than me – well as much as it hurts right now, he can go and do what he wants because I certainly do deserve better and at last I know that!
Well said grace.
Thanks Lynda and Sara
Despite my ranting, I’m not mad at you Lia, or anyone here, I get mad at myself when I’m reminded of the waiting, waiting, waiting I used to do. Not even sure what I was waiting for!
But I’m so much happier now, there is life after these relationships, really there is.
I am in NC for the second and final time, I’m just coming into my second week and I’m doing ok but I am constantly thinking about him one way or another ~ is this normal??? Do other people do this??? We were together nearly 6 years, we were living together, although I worked away a lot, and were going to get married this January ~ or so I thought, he had no intentions of letting that happen. He is with somebody else now, the very week after he told me (the nerve) that it was all over for good because I had crossed a line ~ not putting up with his shit anymore!!! But even though I wouldn’t have him back gift wrapped I still can’t get him out of my head. The house I live in is still in his name and he will be coming shortly to collect the rest of his clothes etc, I will make sure I’m not here but maybe that is why I can’t stop thinking about him, because I know this is still hanging over me. I feel sick when I get a new realisation of what I put up with, looking back it seems he was telling me, by his actions, that it was all over but he has done the same with me as he did his ex, kept me hanging on till he got someone else he wanted to be with. It’s sickening but unfortunately true and I can’t deny it anymore 🙁
Karen,
I think it’s normal, yes, but healthy, no. I am doing it too and it’s driving me freaking crazy. It took me a good year after ex MM and I quit talking the first time to get to a good place where my mind wasn’t spinning its wheels over him constantly. This time, well it’s harder and taking some time again. This time it’s harder because I thought I’d gotten closer to having him yet while he expressed feelings for me, he obviously wants to stay with his wifey. While I wish he’d choose me, I can’t do anything to change his mind. And I have to keep in mind to not take it personally, though I wonder……
I deal with “ok, why her and not me. What’s she got that I don’t?!” and accepting that I need to let go and move on yet again. And I deal with him being on my mind soon as I awaken to the time I rest my head. Those brief moments where I have distracted myself enough that I realize he’s not on my mind, I literally say out loud to myself “YES!! I FORGOT!!” Then I think about him some more until I distract myself enough again. I’m telling you, it takes A LOT to distract me from this! Slowly but surely it’ll be a memory and my mind will have occupied itself with other things.
Thanks for that Colororange, I also have had the odd moment when I am not thinking about him and think ‘yes, I’m not thinking about him’ but tonight I went out with some people who I don’t know that well, because I am new to this area and don’t know many people yet, but I went out and struggled like mad to try and get my mind off him and didn’t do a very good job until I hit the dance floor and while I was dancing I not only didn’t think about him but actually enjoyed myself as well and went on to have a really pleasant evening which has given me loads of hope and optimism for the future which I really needed because today has been a really bad day, it has been so hard but I’m feeling strong again so if it is possible I am sharing this strength with you right now, as has been said, don’t think ‘why not me’ think ‘thank God it wasn’t me’ – we are worth so very much more than what these men can ever give us, so much more and I look forward to the day when I don’t ever think about him at all, that will be a happy day.
colororange,
I had to comment because it was almost as if you were speaking my mind for me! I’m in a similar situation trying to get over a MM and although I sent a ‘goodbye’ letter 3 weeks ago, he’s acted like it never happened..hasn’t even acknowledged it. He’s even continued to contact me. I’ve even asked the same question (to his face) of “Why her and not me?” and he just said “I’ll have to think on that.” Never did get a response btw. This time, I’ve tried keeping NC myself but fell off the wagon 5 days ago and responded to several of his lame texts. We too have done the ‘let’s NC dance’ twice before but they were usually initiated by him, followed by him returning when he was “tired of fighting it.” This time, I thought I’d gotten closer to having him and having him be my night in shining armor. Turns out, he’s a joker in a dull paperbag. Now, I feel like the one who’s been rejected – again – since I broke my own NC. I was doing good this week until today when it hit me, I haven’t heard from him all week (you see, I subliminally thought I would). Then, the tears and rejected feeling hit me like a ton of bricks. Like you, he is on my mind from the time I wake up to the time I go to sleep. Everyday. I try to keep busy, but it doesn’t seem to help. The only thing I’ve found that makes a difference is coming to this site and reading. I too am waiting for the time when this all becomes a distant memory. As Nat said, I was waiting for him to “spell it out” that it was over, but he would never do that. He was and still is a conflict avoidant manipulative coward. Seems this type of person doesn’t even deserve to be thought about and missed. Now, if I could just get my head and heart to agree on this, I’d be good to go.
Lia,
You mentioned “Pretty in Pink” and that is one of my very fave movies not to mention, Andrew McCarthy, who was THE crush of my teen years (and beyond). I know what you mean about that scene resonating so much though. She catches him out and they have their scene at the lockers with her screaming at him, “Just tell me the truth, just tell me the truth” and even then, he is still a coward with her.
And then of course, smirking around the corner (as only he can do) is the deliciously evil James Spader and what is it about him that still makes me swoon after all this time as well? Such a great movie though, if only we could all have such happy endings in real life.
I loved how Duckie was still there for her in the end. It was a testament for the real love that he had for her…But I hated how she ended up with Blane, I thought that he was weak and I wanted her to tell him off then have a good time at the dance with Duckie. But she got her happy ending in the movie, I just wonder if they made a part 2 if the same issue would have crept back up and tore them apart…
Yes, yes, and yes. This is the #1 thing that I did wrong in my so called “relationship.” I thought that he should at least have the courage to tell me forthright that he didn’t want to be with me even though his actions and at times words, were SCREAMING it. I wanted to be with him far too much and realize that I was willing to stand by and endure all the disrespectful and shady behaviour just so I could be with him, whatever that meant. I was miserable more than half of the time but yet, I stuck it out and when I ended it was terribly sad. I realized later however through taking an honest look at everything that had gone on that I had nothing to be sad about. This person was nothing great and I am better off without them.
grace, you are so right.
when i told the AC that i wanted to end it , his response (via text of course), was that he didn’t.
but, who would want to give up free food, sex, hot water, a car, and constant ego stroking? a user! LOL
ugh- this article describes the perfect EUM/FBG recipe.. an ambivalent, self-centered conflict avoider who doesn’t know his own heart and a scared, hopeful validation seeker who wants a relationship so much that she avoids picking up on what she doesn’t want to see/hear. Blech- am hopefully never going to be in that frame of mind or situation again!
Here here D, I supported the AC in so many ways, financially, emotionally, socially etc etc and he didn’t even have to make any effort, he was a complete user so why would he end it although the b*****d did in the end but so what I say now, I have learned some valuable lessons and I am free of him, he on the other hand is stuck with him!!!!
As Grace said earlier: “HE MAY NOT WANT TO END IT!”
Yes, this!
I was recently dumped via facebook by this guy I thought I was dating for almost a year. After my previous 14 year abusive relationship, I over-looked a lot of red flags & hints with the new guy because I wanted this to work. Not because I liked him so terribly much, but because I kept telling myself at least he was better than the lying, cheating ex, and because I was afraid this was as good as it was going to get, and a whole host of reasons this site has been helping me identify (thanks Natalie!). Two months ago I became suspicious and sneaked a check of his phone – and confirmed he was seeing other women. But I allowed my guilt about violating HIS trust in checking the phone, and my own desire NOT to be the butt of another assclown to convince myself that I was mistaken. I allowed him back in my life, but it was on his terms. Oh he made it seem like he cared about me, that we were exclusive but I never pushed it because I kept telling myself we weren’t really dating. Well, I was right – we weren’t dating. I was providing all of the relationship benefits he wanted without actually taking care of my needs. He drip fed me enough to string me along, and then defriended me one day on facebook (after we’d been up to 1am sexting the night before no less. Note to self: pay attention to the txt red flags!) so that another woman he’s seeing wouldn’t find out about me.
Of course I was mad – and stunned, because despite all the hints and red flags I still expected him to be the type of person to be honest and come out and say what he wanted from me. But he was looking after his own interests, which was getting what he wanted from me until he didn’t want it anymore. He demonstrated repeatedly he was selfish and self-centered, yet I allowed the delusion of believing that somehow this behavior wouldn’t apply to ME. The worst part is seeing how I did it to myself. He looked out for his interest, I need to learn I’m important enough to look out for mine.
“Of course I was mad – and stunned, because despite all the hints and red flags I still expected him to be the type of person to be honest and come out and say what he wanted from me.
Ahhh, I remember this exact feeling. Strange how many of us have found ourselves in this position before. I too, had to learn the hard way. But if you really think about it, he actually was being honest with you while you, on the other hand, were being dishonest with him. He was showing you what he wanted from you and by remaining there, you showed him that you were okay with that despite the fact that you weren’t. Neither one of you were speaking up about anything, but he may not have thought that there was anything to talk about.
“He looked out for his interest, I need to learn I’m important enough to look out for mine.” That sounds like the “ah ha” moment that everyone in these situations seems to have once they realize how much power they were giving away. It really is about focusing on yourself and knowing what you want, and being confident enough to know that you deserve it. Whoever this clown was that messed you over, be glad that he’s gone from your life. The emotional energy that is spent on these guys could be put to much better use elsewhere for half the price. One thing I had to learn was that it is okay to say that something isn’t good enough for me. It doesn’t make a person arrogant or high maintenance to realize that, and it doesn’t mean that you’re looking down on someone or something, it only demonstrates that you know what you’re worth. I don’t know at what point in your life this occurred, but I hope you weren’t/aren’t too hard on yourself for it. It happened, you can’t go back in time and change it. All you can do is learn from it and grow. I wish you well in that journey…
Wow, thank you. There is so much there that feels like I could have written it. The kindness of people here overwhelms me.
This point really hit home:
“But if you really think about it, he actually was being honest with you while you, on the other hand, were being dishonest with him. He was showing you what he wanted from you and by remaining there, you showed him that you were okay with that despite the fact that you weren’t. Neither one of you were speaking up about anything, but he may not have thought that there was anything to talk about.”
Because it’s so true. Even though I said the right things: you know, the I won’t be a booty call, I won’t have sex with you etc. my actions were saying the opposite. I was sending mixed messages, and he clearly thought it was acceptable to listen to ones that got him what he wanted.
It IS an ah-ha!, thank you for clarifying it. Day three of NC, I know it will be better, just a little raw still. I really need to figure out why I got so sucked into a person I didn’t really even like that much.
I just have to say finding this site and reading all posts and blogs has helped my healing process. I’m not there yet because I still think about him every day and just can’t believe that he treated me like no other man has and just dumped me without any explanation. When I read about all you other women that have managed to move on it gives me hope. I used to be a healthy (uk size) size 8 but have dropped to a slim size 6 all because I put all my trust into a man. I failed to act on the red flags and hints and went along with the ride just because I was lonely. I hope soon to be free of all this unnecessary hurt and pain and be happy again. It sucks to feel this way. I’ve kept up NC but still struggle after 6 weeks not to call, text or look at his FB profile. 🙁
Stephanie, It will take awhile longer…a minimum of 3 months.
Stephanie, hang on tight… and come here everyday, it helped me.
Leisha is right, it will take a little while longer, but if you’re determined and do everything you can, you will get there, to the brighter other side.
@Leisha, thanks for the reminder. The last time I had to go NC it took me a good 4 months, then a couple months after that to fade out. Now I’m doing it again, NC on another guy, but I’ve been impatient and frustrated at myself for not being over it already. It’s barely 3 months. I need to keep in mind that I will get there, and give myself time.
Chinkiez, You’re welcome. It takes the time but it works…we know it does…we do the work and the “magic” happens .I’m on NC too…it’ll be awhile before the sky clears but I know it happens. I get impatient too, but I know and trust the process now although it is still hard. We’ll hang in there, get the lessons and go on…
@Grace
“If my employer is exploiting me – if I’m working for less than I’m worth, if I’m doing unpaid overtime, if I’ve got the office in the carpark that no-one wants, if I’m doing all the jobs that everyone hates, if I’ve been told conditions will never improve, if I’ve seen other employees being treated better – do I complain a lot about not being fired … or do I get off my arse and leave?”
Oh this is just brilliant! Thank you so much for writing that!
Goodness ladies, can’t tell you how much strength these comments give me. I officially ended it with my MM after 5 months of head over heels stuff, that never materialised because surprise surprise he never left – despite the many many promises and excuses. We’re still be flirting on and off and he’s been chasing, then I’ve been chasing blah blah. Spent last Friday night with him, him telling me he adored me and loved me. I still get that feeling of loss when a few days pass by and we’ve not been in touch. Try not to look at his FB page but he seems to ‘like’ everything I say – wow.
I am a smart attractive woman, and I can do this, and I have some amazing people around me….I am lucky. I’m just at the point where I’ve regained some confidence and I’m not sitting looking at pics of her or him and wondering, why didn’t he pick me….what’s wrong with me, what did I do wrong??? It’s just when it hits the weekend and I’ve had a glass of vino I start reminiscing and texting……aaargh! God give me strength to walk away and go after what I deserve. I deserve more, and I just need to focus ahead, not behind. Good luck to you all….gorgeous smart women xxx
My mom once told me that there’s only one other thing that compares to the pain of heartache, watching someone that you care about put themselves through it. I’m sure the same would apply to those who know what you’re going through. I’m now in the position of watching a friend put herself through something similar to you, it does hurt to see because she deserves better yet doesn’t know it. But I’ve also been in the position of having my friends watching me hurting over someone who treated me as an afterthought. It was actually the words of a friend that knocked some sense into me as he questioned how I could value the friendship that we had all the while this other man’s treatment of me at the same time. That question literally stopped me dead in my tracks as, until that point, I had never realized how there was absolutely no comparison between the two, they contradicted each other. By continuing to pursue this poor relationship, I was inadvertently demonstrating to my friends that I didn’t value the good things that they brought to my life, which was completely untrue. That gave me some much needed perspective, as it begs the question of what one truly values.
So what is it that you value? It’s time for you to have an honest conversation with yourself about that. But honestly, if you have great people around you yet you’re trying to keep a not-so-great one there too, the anomaly really is this married man and you’re acting out of line with your own values. Sometimes we forget how strong we are until we have no other option but to be just that. Have faith in yourself and your ability to get what you truly want, and know that the people that love you want that very same thing for you. I wish you the best of luck on getting to where you want to be.
“My ex EUM did so many of what you said above, Nat….The disappearing, the midnight booty calls, his (lack of) actions… 2 years of unbelievable on’s and off’s. I know I should have walked away long ago…Yesterday, after a month of disappearing, he finally appeared!!! The last month, he was decorating his new apartment and he didn’t answer in any of the texts I sent him. He was probably very busy and he had more interesting things to do than answering to me. But yesterday, guess what. He texted “Would you like to come to my new home for the night?” I couldn’t believe my eyes. He actually remembered that I existed…? Of course he wanted sex. I answered “Thank you but I can’t come. Have a good night.” You know what he answered? My friends, read this next one, please. “Ok. It was my mistake. Goodbye.” He probably expected me to beg and plead and do all the thimgs I used to when I was weaker. But not any more. So I did nothing. And I actually, feel a little, better today. I still miss him but I know he can’t offer me a healthy and good relationship. My God, what an ego! WHAT AN EGO!!!!!!
Ugh! It used to INFURIATE me to no end when you send them a facebook invitation/message or text and then there is silence…no reply. It’s like “you are not worth 30 seconds of my time or 25 cents”.
And this is only after you phone up, get no answer, so you text and then they only reply to texts.
Hey Lia,
Oh, I know, wasn’t Duckie just the best?! Seriously! He was there for Andie when she needed him, unlike Blaine who was just (well okay but its really Andrew McCarthy, *sigh* be still my beating heart!) well, his character did ultimately, do the right thing, but still! Argh!
But, I can answer your question about the ending: in the anniversary DVD edition of the movie, it turns out, that the original ending WAS Andie and Duckie together, with Blaine leaving by himself, BUT the test audiences didn’t like that ending and so, the powers that be, allowed for an alternate ending, the one we now are familiar with, today. Sigh.
Such a great movie though, I may just have have my Molly Ringwald trilogy movie night soon (Sixteen Candles, The Breakfast Club, Pretty in Pink)…hugs to everyone 🙂
I just remembered recently – I didn’t just get a hint, an ex told me on one of our first dates that he is a megalomaniac. I didn’t really know what that meant, brushed it off, and never looked it up. I probably wouldn’t have believed it if I had. And it is absolutely, utterly true. Ugh.
meg·a·lo·ma·ni·a (mg-l-mn-, -mny)
n.
1. A psychopathological condition in which delusional fantasies of wealth, power, or omnipotence predominate.
Ugh. Just ugh.
Ewwww, Sunshine,
Was he proud of this? To actually label himself and tell you?
Lesson learned… I will pay attention if guys says: Hi, my name is SoandSo, by the way I have no integrity and carelessly use and abuse all women that I meet…
I had one say, “I’m a dick.” And I ARGUED WITH HIM!! “No you’re NOT!!” Come to find out, he really was.
If it looks like a dick, acts like a dick, SAYS its a dick … its a dick. Ha ha ha ha!
When people TELL you who they are, believe them the first time. 🙂
By the way, that isn’t a “hint”. That’s a slap upside the head. I should be ashamed for that one!!
“It’s important that you listen, watch, and process the clues in your relationship because what hinters do is give you what they feel is a heads up about who they really are.”
If I had a dime for each clue & hint that I have ignored, I would be swaying in a hammock in Tahiti with a pina colada in my hand, never having to work again. It is frightening how many times I was blinded by hope, caught on my own runaway train of attraction and fooled by non-committal behavior that I’ve excused with “he’s shy, he’s intimidated, he’s busy working two jobs” and so on and so forth. Sometimes, though, the clues are just damn confusing. There’s a guy at my local karaoke bar who treats me with kindness but when I talk to him, he finds it hard to meet my eyes and conversation is stilted and awkward; he’s admitted that he’s quiet. But, still the thought nagging in my mind is, “Is this disinterest?”
blueberry
In this instance I would say that he is shy. See, I’m not a manhater!
That said, don’t let the fact that someone is shy (aren’t we all at times) blind you to any red flags.
And find out if he’s single.
Ok, Grace, I was thinking that, too, but I’m afraid to trust myself because of my ghosts of poor judgement past. But how do you ask that “single” question without looking pushy, desperate and, God forbid, interested? (here comes that fear again)
P.S. I never thought you were a manhater. Just someone incredibly wise and articulate about relationships…
In my newly established boundaries I will enforce a limited amount of time to establish a relationship with a man. A short period if hints are given., and an even shorter period if any flags are thrown. Can you say: Speed of Light, Quick as Lightening! Ha!
I put 14 months into last relationship and should have ended during first two months. Hint after hint, flag after flag. Honesty, I did not know how to date or to evaluate a relationship before I came to this site of Baggage Reclaim. Thank You Natalie!!! In Me, You Have Made a Positive Change, and have re-enabled me to be the person I am to be on this earth.
“When someone is married/attached and is trying to shag you or you’re already in an affair with them, it’s a clue that not only are they avoiding commitment, but that when they experience problems, whether it’s within themselves or their relationship, that they avoid them.”
I had to wince when I read that one…. so true. I have to face up to the reality that I too am guilty of this behavior.
Dawn, so true – avoidance is the calling card of the EUM or MM; it’s not an isolated problem with them; it pervades their entire relationship behaviour. Avoid is what they do. And we must think about what it is that we are avoiding – cos if we are not avoiding the EUM or MM it’s because we are avoiding something in ourselves or about ourselves that we should really be addressing (otherwise we would not be giving these hopeless and thankless relationships the time of day).
I’m so glad i stumbled upon this site thismorning!
i never ever listen to the hints, and im currently undergoing an impossible situation with my ex, whos now living with his new girlfriend, he says hes going to dump her soon but “now’s not a good time” (like its ever a good time to dump somebody) and “i dont expect you to wait round” after reading this article im starting to think thats a massive hint! im quite gutted inside =(
any words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated xx
Groundhog day
“he says he’s going to dump her soon…”
They are all going to step up… soon! All you know is he is NOT dumping her. End of.
One thing I’ve learned: never, ever, ever run my own life around what someone else tells me they are *going* to do. Take what he is doing *now* and act accordingly.
PS he sounds like a prize pillock – don’t hang your coat on his empty promises – it’s a very shoogley nail. He’d like to keep you hanging about as an option to massage his sad ego. You’re not that desperate; he’s not that special. Get on with your own life.
Thanks for your reply Fearless!
you are absolutely right, I’m so sick of all these excuses, there’s always a reason with these guys – she’s got an exam or she’s just lost her job or its so close to Christmas, well i think after reading some of these articles is that they aren’t reasons they’re excuses! then it’ll be valentines day, then it’ll be her birthday then he wont want to spoil her rainy day…
you’re right, im not that desperate! thanks! xx
If they are doing it SOON they are not doing it NOW.
Just like when NML says “fear means it is not happening yet”, SOON means it is not happening yet *either*.
Groundhog,
You may not want to hear this yet but the fact is he living with his girlfriend is more than a hint. It’s a fact. He’s attached and setting you up to be the OW (Other Woman). “Now’s not a good time” and “I don’t expect you to wait around” are classic Mr. Unavailable lines. As a former OW for two years, it was the most painful and worst days of my life. Read everything Natalie has written on cheating and all the comments from the OW’s (as well as OM’s). Being involved with a person who is attached and unavailable is a trail of misery, anquish, despair, and tears. OW’s seldom end up being the exception to the rule. Your ex is unavailable and a liar. As Natalie says: “There’s no such thing as an honest cheat.” If you think you are gutted now, think how you will feel in 2014 when he still hasn’t dumped her (poor her) and you discover you have been waiting around (poor you). I sure wish I had discovered Natalie and this blog before I wasted two years of my life as a OW and a classic Fallback Girl. Before you do anything else, download Natalie’s books, Mr. Unavailable and the Fallback Girl, the No Contact Rule, and sign up for the No Contact rule emails. You have a wonderful opportunity to avoid the trail of tears if you are open to listen. Otherwise, welcome to the world of the Fallback Girl: A shag, ego stroke, and shoulder to lean on, sprinkled with a bit of future-faking and a crumb every now and again. We will be here if you opt to be the Fallback Girl. It’ll leave you more depleted than you ever knew possible. I know this sounds a bit harsh but you deserve better than to be an option, don’t you? Listen to what he is telling you. He. isn’t. available. Trust what you read on this site. We are telling the truth even though it hurts like hell. GO NC ASAP and don’t look back. Sending you my best and a hug too! NC is your only way out.
I’ve gotta agree with Runner, Groundhog Day – you’re being stitched up. Big time. In fact, technically you’re already in OW territory as he’s attached and you’re trying to negotiate him leaving his girlfriend. A man who tells you not to wait is telling you that he’s not leaving and to go about your business, he just doesn’t have the testicles to *actually* come out straight and say it. You would hate him to be negotiating with another woman behind your back saying “I’m going to dump her soon” and “Now’s not a good time”. I understand you’re gutted inside but trust me when I say that it’s not half as gutted if you don’t hit your eject button *out* of this situation. He’s an ex, which means your relationship is over and he’s attached, which means you have to let go. It’s an awful situation but don’t allow yourself to be played.
Thanks for all your input everyone i really appreciate it! and the fact your all being brutally honest is only a bonus rather than fannying round n wasting my time haha. I shall go NC asap, im only a month n a half into it and i definitely dont wanna be waiting round for months even years to come, il nip this in the bud before i end up in a swirling nightmare of upset!
Thanks again =) xx
Groundhog Day: The rest of it? He’s not taking time in between to process anything. He’s running from woman to woman. He’s planning to step before he steps with someone in a way that is guaranteed to hurt the woman he is with now (if he doesn’t change his mind) and I wonder if he’s even tried to fix what is broken in his present relationshit. How respectful is he being to anyone here? How nice for him to have you waiting for him to come into your loving arms as if he’s some type of prize.What’s to stop him from getting ticked at you and running to her, getting ticked at her and running to you…Why isn’t he taking the time to address the demise of what he’s been in? I agree with Fearless, Runner and Nat and your decision to end it, but I just wanted to add a few thoughts of my own. Some people can’t be alone and so always have someone in the wings “just in case”. If he really wants to be with you he should end the relationship he’s in now. Grieve (hell, though, with him I’m unsure if he’s even aware of what that is or why he might need to do it…unlike us he doesn’t have Natalie) and one day in the distance check in with you and go very very slowly to see how things are and if you want a relationship based on values, etc. Of course, that’s what I think and unfortunately, unlikely to happen, but, it’s doable and a wise course to take to give any real likely relationship a chance. I wonder if the issues that made him an ex have changed…
Bottom line is we need to take a long hard look at ourselves and figure out what are issues are as to why we try to get blood from a stone, not recognize realities or even worse just go into denial and rationalize and excuse their shady behavior maybe because we practice similar shady behaviors also?? Until we get honest with ourselves, take responsibility for our own actions and behaviors we keep doing the same thing over and over, picking the same guy different package, over and over again. I have found out from reading NML’s postings I am also EU and I have a lot of issues that I have to dig myself out from under. If I had done the work sooner I wouldn’t have continued to repeat these self destructive patterns. Look within to find the answers, stop blaming men for not being able to be in a healthy relationship with me, I keep picking the ones who can’t, because of my own issues. It’s one thing to be enlightened but it’s another to actually do something about it. This last go around with a totally unavailable man brought that home to me. At least I am not on that miserable path to nowhere anymore. I went against my own boundaries, and wasn’t aware of so many things about myself and my unhealthy love habits until I started seeking knowledge here on this site from NML and all the ladies on here who share all their stories. I’m grateful for that. It’s helped me to take some huge positive steps towards being a more emotionally healthy person. As afraid as I am I know I have to do what’s best for me, it’s all in my hands now, I’ve made a commitment to myself instead of asking someone who can’t’ make a commitment to.
I too spent about 18 months listening to the BS excuses “it’s complicated”, “I don’t want to rush into another relationship’, “I’m not sure what I want’ and my all time fave “if you were a bit more consistent I’d be with you” lol. Goodness what a waste of time. And really why should anyone settle for crumbs/being a last minute option? He knew what he wanted, to keep me as an ‘option’ while he future faked into the next ‘relationship’ pfft. It gave me an escape from my own EU issues, as I was constantly making excuses for his behaviour, instead of my own 🙁 I now chuckle as to why I wasted time pining over a man who got the sweats about making a committment a few hours in advance, and on nights out with his own partner/girlfriend would take off from them to ring around/look around for someone else. Yikes!
I dated this guy for 2 months… it was a whirlwind romance. He chased me and texted me continuously but no phone calls. Only 2 phone calls during the duration of courtship. We got intimate after a month of dating and he opened up to me that his GF of 10 years died of breast cancer 7 months ago. After he opened up to me about his late GF, he even said that if I ever wanted to be friends with him, just say so (that was a hint that I ignored). 2nd hint: He did not marry his late GF of 10 years (hint: commitment issue). I know I should have walked away but I was so blinded by his “future talk” thinking that there was really a future between us. After he opened up to me, he started to act cold and distant and I thought he was feeling guilty because he it has not been a year since his late GF passed away and he started dating already. I went away for the weekend and he sent me a text message to enjoy myself so I thought everything was ok with him. I got him a souvenir so when I came back from my mini vacation, it texted him, left him a VM to tell him that I got something for him. No response and so I emailed him to let me know if he is no longer interested. NADA! He just disappeared!!! I left the souvenir in his balcony… not even a thank you. It’s been 7 weeks now since I last saw him and after my email I made NC. He even de-friended me on FB a week ago (he was the one who requested to be friends with me). I still think about him and I know I will fully get over him soon. I know I am getting there… life goes on.
I’ve disappeared and not due to being a coward…any further contact would have been detrimental to my well being. But as adults 99% of the time breaking up should be done face to face
This post was probably the hardest to read.
May of this year ended a whirlwind of hints I ignored. It took this person basically escalating our “friendship” to abuse for me to know that he was never going to ever actually tell me he wasn’t interested (why not, he was getting all the benefits and didn’t have to do anything). Things blew up in March when I saw another woman posting on a social media site about sleeping with him too, her comments at least validated how I felt as she wrote things like “I’ve never been in such a confusing situation”, “Oh the things I do for boys” etc etc. I knew she was going through the same things I was with him….I confronted him about it without using her name and he basically got angry and told me he felt “used” because he hospitably allowed me to stay with him for a few weeks in between moving apartments and I proceeded to accuse him of this at the end of it. I stupidly second guessed myself and thought maybe what I had seen wasn’t accurate (even though that hint might as well’ve slapped me in the face).
Before things blew up he was future-faking left and right (“come and live with me for a few weeks”, “we will get through your job transition and move together”, “if you need anything ask for my help”). Suffice to say I was terribly confused about what the heck was going on and proceeded to see him. He was afterall “A nice guy, great job, seemingly nice, seemed to have things going”. He came around again after disappearing for awhile and helped me fix some things around the house and ended that night with a “I miss my friend”, which in a weak and confused moment I stupidly slept with him again.
I saw him once more after that, in between those two times he was pointing out girls left and right and making references about asking for their numbers (hinting that he’s looking around). AGAIN I stupidly did not pay any attention to anything this man was hinting at (he might as well have been holding a neon sign saying “all you’re ever going to be to me is some eff buddy”). I kept thinking why would he offer to help pay for my housing closing costs, offer to help me move, offer to fix things around my apartment if all he wanted was a bit on the side while looking for something else.
Same pattern, he disappeared for awhile and then out of the blue texts to meet. It started out talking as…
Ooops I didn’t realize this had a limit.
Anyhow, suffice to say I was in quite the confusing future faking, is this something or is this not situation. This has never happened to me before. I feel ashamed, humiliated and used.
Please all I can say is trust your instincts as its taken 7 months of NC with this person to even feel semi normal again and I still dont feel like myself.
6MTHS ago I met a guy who came out a LTR ( over 5 yrs). He has been out of the relationship for abt 1.5 yrs. He said he was looking to settle down. Anyways, I started to like him and told him how i felt. This guy is the total opposite of me. He said he was willing to give it a try and see how things go. Few days down the line, he flipped out on me. He came back saying he is not long term, im too good for him, he is a wreck and that he will leave if he feels like its not going to work. This will be my first relationship, and according to him, i will be hurt if it doesnt work out. So I left it at that. 3 mths passed, he contacted me. He wanted to hang out. I told him im intersted and if ur not going to give it a try, dont waste my time. He said fine we will see how it goes. We went on a date, made out like for hrs, and he wanted make love to me. I said no as im a virgin and i wasnt sure if he was even serious. He dropped me home, kissed me few times. Few hrs later, he msged to tell me it was empty and he felt nothing. I was upset. He knew all along that he wasnt into it. He gave me so many reasons to why i shuld be with someone better. When i started to question…he freaked out….told me to go away, leave him alone, started to yell. All this is new to me. I have never seen such emotion on a person. Why is he freaking out? why come and try to sleep with a virgin…he culd hav gone anywhere….why me
Even though my ex-narc baby daddy blew a lot of hot air up my bum in the beginning talking about us getting married (all his idea…marriage was never on the agenda for me), he later started dropping hints. He would say he’ll never wear a wedding ring as they are too “uncomfortable”. I would ask him why he manages to wear his engineering ring, and he admitted that he values his engineering ring (he would not value a wedding ring). He made a million excuses for not wearing a wedding ring including “I don’t need to tell the world I’m owned. When I’m committed I’m committed…I don’t need to prove it”. Blah blah blah. He wouldn’t put on Facebook that he was in a relationship with me. I found that odd…he wanted to get me pregnant but didn’t want to tell people on FB that we were in a relationship. He hated going to weddings…on principle. This was the same guy that wooed me by telling me we’d have a small wedding in his back yard by the flower gardens we planted? Now there was no talk of weddings…however after he dumped me and threw me and our 5 month old baby out of his house, he loved to email me to tell me how I RUINED his plans to propose to me in NYC. Yeah…apparently by me having a voice and standing up for myself when he treated me like crap, I wrecked his plan to marry me. He wrote…”I used to dream about taking you to New York and proposing to you. It brought tears to my eyes”. Yup…the thought brought him so many tears that he ended our relationship before he actually had to go through with it! ASSCLOWN!
I just got out of a 2 year LDR with a fellow. We started off as friends, then about six months later we were admitting to the feelings we were feeling for each other. We made plans to meet and to have him move to the States. We talked daily, for hours on end after carefully arranging times (7 hour time difference).
Then after I started university and had to focus a little more on my studies (though always with skype up so we could talk)….he started to become distant. Less time online and when he was, he was always distracted with a conversation with someone else online or by playing a browser game. I would call him on the telephone, on the times he would answer he was happy to hear from me and would chat for awhile, but he would never call in return. Last I heard from him, he wanted some time to think; he was nervous about the move and all, but was quick to reassure me of his love and that I would hear back from him. The very next day, his new girlfriend ( I had no idea he was seeing someone else) came on skype to tell me about their new bed and how they were busy breaking it in.
I heard nothing back from him and all attempts to contact him were ignored. I went NC and stayed that way until last night when…..
I found out he’s been seeing someone since the end of August and lying to me about it. While telling her he loves her he’s been telling me the same. He paid for her plane ticket to fly to him (halfway around the world), while crying to me how broke he is because his car broke down. I think he was putting me on hold until she goes back home and then planned on trying to pick up with the “I love you” bit again. I had even told him to just be honest with me if he didn’t love me any more after he told me he needed time and he swore he still loved and wanted me.
So many red flags I overlooked because with him being younger and me being older than him, I didn’t want to look like a desperate old fool….and yet I would up like that anyway.
This blog entry brought me to BR. I had been avoiding responsibility for my own actions contributing to being in a casual “relationship” with the same man (back and forth) for 6 years.
It’s been 3 months since the break and 6 weeks since the NC. I don’t have any urges to contact him/get back together. I’m mainly angry and having trouble letting it go. I feel used, humiliated and incredibly stupid for falling for it time and again.
We were never in a relationship, he was with me for a shag, an ego stroke, to spend time (movie/dinner/etc), shoulder to lean on (old hurt + drinking problem), is depressed, and a total narcissist (his friends, his sexual needs, his interests, his family, etc).
He has said most of these things to me over the years and I discounted them because he’d also say he loved me and all the other positive stuff (selective hearing, not taking a hint). I FINALLY see now that he was blowing hot/cold to maintain status quo. I did settle for close to nothing and had illusion of it being something more.
I felt disrespected b/c we didn’t have a title, and nothing progressed. He never engaged in my life, I had every excuse under the sun for his behaviour and I blamed it all on him.
He came back into my life after 1 year of NC when I was doing great and I bought into it. Anyway, I see now that he was passing time with me, I was expecting more than he could offer so he jumped ship.
This is where I get stuck — he has always been a EUM towards me and would never ask me out, 3 weeks after the left me, he was in a relationship with a random girl. I wondered, is this his emotional airbag (since he broke down pretty hard after leaving me) or was he using me until he found someone suitable. I guess it doesn’t matter.
We spoke for an hour (major mistake), I was confused angry, lashed out. He said he it wasn’t even like that in regards to the relationship and that he was only half with someone. I figured well I guess he’s her EUM now.
Natalie, what hit home for me was that I was staying in an uncomfortable comfort zone. This unhealthy behaviour is what I know and have seen growing up. At first I didn’t see the connection between this and my low self-esteem. But I see now that he was reflecting my perception of myself. Pretty/admired/successful on the outside, broken on the inside.
I didn’t even have the…
Atrophy,
stay out of denial. Never go near him (or anyone like him) again. And in time you’ll be just fine. Read Nat’s Mr EU and the FBG – it’ll really help. Good luck.
…the courage to leave, I was betting on potential and a return on investment. He was crying uncontrollably and said all I do is hurt you and I don’t want to do that anymore.
My guilt for doing NC is what I sometimes struggle with (he still wants to be friends). He did give me all the warnings (I don’t want to hurt you, I’m scared to be in a relationship, I’ve ruined every relationship I’ve been in, I don’t know how to be in a relationship, I don’t want to be vulnerable, I haven’t cared about anything in a long time, I have built up walls, I’m dead inside, I don’t want to lose you, you mean so much to me, let’s be friends, I can’t give you what you want/need, you and me – it just won’t work) but I refused to listen. Then he asked me out…so I was confused, I felt I had given him my bottom line and he was doing it to keep me around wasn’t fully invested, so it went back to status quo.
Thanks for making me accountable.
Natalie has hit the nail on the head once again. However, I don’t agree that when men don’t want to commit to one woman it means that they have commitment issues. They can commit when they feel like it.
What they have is a lack of desire to pin themselves down with any one woman because they want to keep sticking their sorry little wieners in as many women as possible who are willing to spread-eagle for them. It’s as simple as that. It comes down to a lack of honor, concern for the woman’s physical and emotional well-being, selfishness, self-absorbed behavior, arrogance, self-indulgence, and unwillingness to exercise self-control.
Unfortunately, today’s society encourages males to behave in that manner and they are all too-willing to refuse to act like real men. Frankly, I’ve hung up the towel. I am waiting until my next life-time to find in-love, love, magic and sublimeness.
Ashyl, I don’t know how old you are, but you MUST *NOT* fall for these types of guys. Is he a lot older than you -OR- are you older and just happen to be a virgin? By the way, there is nothing wrong with being a virgin.
Whatever you do, however, do NOT get mixed up with guys just out of a relationship, whether a marriage or a boyfriend/girlfriend thing. It’s never good news. For all you know, he wasn’t even out of a relationship and just gave you that bulls*it so that you would not expect much from him. I think that Natalie would call it “managing down” your expectations!
Having had HORRIBLE luck with guys for 3 years straight, and having given up trying to find a good man, I’ve been alone for just over 3 years. I really don’t think that there are many good guys nowadays; if there are, they are happily at home with their wife, and if they’re not married, happily at home with their girlfriend.
Anyway, my point is that you must NOT be with married guys, guys just out of a relationship, or guys who tell you that they are about to get out of a relationship. If ANYTHING about them triggers your red flags or your gut just doesn’t feel right, LISTEN TO THE RED FLAGS AND LISTEN TO YOUR GUT! Do NOT make excuses or try to second-guess your red flags or gut!
Best wishes to you!