A couple of years ago, I wrote about 10 reasons women choose men…and why they shouldn’t including stuff like being a churchgoer, being married and loving kids and animals, and more recently I’ve written about being blinded by intelligence and looks. Many a reader has also discovered that there’s no point going on about how much you have in common if you don’t have shared values and the common ground of a relationship.
People can have ‘hallmarks’ that would appear to indicate certain qualities, characteristics and values, but be very careful of using them to make blind assumptions.
It’s also safe to say that just because you believe you’re in possession of certain qualities, characteristics, and values or even life experiences, it doesn’t mean you can assume when you meet someone and find you have some common ground, like being only children, or fond of 18th century poetry, or similar relationship experiences, that you must be destined to be together and are ‘the same’.
When people say to me “I thought that because he was seventy that he was looking for someone to love” or “I’m fifty-effing-two! He should know I want to get married” or “He was married so he is obviously capable of commitment” or “She’d been through a lot – I thought she’d appreciate all the love I gave her”, I want to yell “STOP THE MADNESS!” and have it reverberate just like when Ross in Friends found out that his boss ate his turkey sandwich. Or hit the wrong answer buzzer.
No one thing or even a few things ‘makes’ a person and what many people are doing is taking something and using their beliefs while giving themselves too much credit for their judgement, and then extrapolating it and correlating it to the rest of the person and giving them qualities, characteristics and values they don’t possess.
Using past information unrelated to you to determine what you think you’re owed in your present relationship or as a way to bust your own proverbial balls is nonsensical. Values change and adapt, as does emotional state and capability and even characteristics and qualities – it’s all about the person in front of you.
It is time to stop the madness. You just cannot latch onto a piece of information and run with it.
At the end of the day, you can choose ANY reason you like from a stratospheric IQ, to bank balance, to penis or breast size, to whether they drink alcohol, to their religious beliefs, their ethnicity, their work with charity, their profession, their family relationships etc. but you still need to ensure that 1) what you think is important and that they possess is actually in existence and 2) that aside from whatever it is that you value, that you are in a mutual relationship with love, care, trust, respect and shared values.
Not all people that get married are committed – some are still ‘dating’…
People get married for all sorts of reasons. Many do it for the right reasons and are genuinely committed, and some have a different agenda. Getting married doesn’t automatically give anyone an increased level of intelligence, emotion, status, or even happiness.
Being of a certain age doesn’t mean someone should or will want the same relationship that you do. People are individuals. Long gone are the times when it was the norm for sixteen year old girls to be getting hitched and starting families, just like not everyone over the age of 50 is looking for a companion.
Some people are close with their family but it doesn’t mean they’ll be a great partner for a relationship. Just ask the many women that write to me and can’t get their man to move out from their mothers…
A few days ago, the same woman who assumed that because her guy was 70 that he was looking for love, also told me that she assumed that he was bitter, tightfisted, mean, and at times abusive because of all the previous women he’s dated that she assumed had ripped him off and ‘wounded’ him (cue the violins). She assumed he’d appreciate all her efforts and she could show him what a good woman she was. It never occurred to her that he may be bitter, tightfisted, mean and at times abusive because he’s bitter, tightfisted, mean and abusive.
Real love happens in the real world. We’ve got to, quite frankly, stop making sh*t up as we go along.
Do you want a relationship or do you want to be held hostage by your imagination proclaiming “I don’t know what was real and what was fake”? You never have to worry about such things when you’re a fully paid up resident of the real world on The BS Diet. Some of you don’t want to take the risk of asking questions, of actually getting to know someone and crosschecking information because you don’t want to emotionally engage to that level and be vulnerable.
Until you have enough facts and consistent evidential experience of what you believe to be true about someone, you’re in no position to be making assumptions and predictions about your relationship or them. Ultimately, none of the things you’re assuming or valuing in someone make a blind bit of difference unless you experience them and they add value to your relationship, because trust me, if your relationship isn’t working, it means you’re not getting the effect of these ‘wondrous’ things, or they’re worthless. Stick with substance and reality – it’s where happiness lies.
Your thoughts?
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“Real love happens in the real world. We’ve got to, quite frankly, stop making sh*t up as we go along.” I so agree with that!
I just chatted to someone on the internet a couple of evenings no big deal. They then asked me to change my relationship status to “in a relationship”. When I said that I wouldn’t do this because well i didn;t know them, would never meet them (I am in the Uk they are in the US) I was accused of “not making an effort, not fighting for the good stuff and throwing relationships in the trash can”…ER WTF? Now that so what I call being totally out of touch with reality, making shit up as you go along and projecting onto someone whatever is your crap to deal with. Then..wait for it they blocked me on this site! So funny but so sad.
This person has e.mailed me for two evening that is all. I shake my head as if its not in real life its just a typing relationship based on fantasy assuptions. Its bullshit..just my opinion.
Umi,
Something is seriously wrong with that guy!!!!!
Umi…it sure is b.s. And i reckon he must be nuts anyway – wanting you to change your status to in a relationship after a few online interactions is off the wall.
Agreed!! Good Lord, some of these people…I don’t even know. This reminds me of an incident during my brief foray into online dating. I had been emailing with a very cute, funny, seemingly very normal guy and it progressed to me giving him my phone number. The next day, I had a good friend who now lives out of state visiting. We were very busy riding out a snowstorm by eating nachos and watching The Golden Girls when my phone rang. Before I even checked my voicemail, I get a text from this guy. I replied back that I had a friend from out of town visiting and was catching up with her, but I’d call him the next day. He then proceeded to call me three consecutive times in a row, none of which I answered. Then came another text saying that his grandmother who lived in another city was sick and he really needed to talk to me before he went out of town. I replied back that I was terribly sorry to hear that and wished her a speedy recovery. This is where shit got weird. He then texted me asking if my friend and I planned on sleeping in the same bed while wearing “cute lingerie”. It was the grossest, creepiest conversational switch I have ever experienced. Needless to say, I haven’t had the fortitude to return to online dating since!
Natasha, what a creep! Its amazing how these creeps can appear normal at the start, isn’t it. btw, i love the golden girls too especially the mum -she’s a ticket.
Audrey, agreed on all counts!! If this was a Sophia story, it would start off, “Picture it: New England. A beaaaautiful young interior designer meets a yutz on Jdate…” However, it wouldn’t end in “and that man was…PABLO PICASSO!”, it would be like, “and that man was…A MORON.”
Oy vey was I guilty of busting my proverbial balls over what I thought my ex-AC did with a past girlfriend (yes, brief girlfriend…not long term girlfriend, not wife). It’s really kind of embarassing that I spent five years trying to validate myself off of an asshole based on information gleaned…from MySpace. Five years ago. I also used to feel like a jerk because he’d go on and on about how much he appreciated his family and friends and, there I was, the damn fool who was sleeping with him and it was like I was inhabiting a Lil’ Wayne song, i.e. I got no love! The day before Christmas (he Houdini’d that week, perfect timing) he posted something on Fbook about how he would have everyone who wasn’t around anymore on his mind on Christmas Eve and that they were the best people a man could ask for. It was like taking a sucker punch! None of this was ultimately important, but what WAS important was how he treated me consistently for many years of Boomerang Water Torture.
Nat, you couldn’t be more right that it’s about the person in front of you! I also saw on the Fbook feed about how authentic people don’t treat one person like gold and another like something they stepped in. AMEN!
Ohhh Natalie, I am so looking forward to reading your books on values. I am going to download them this evening and get started. I have been so guilty of mistaking common interests (secondary values) for core primary values. Frankly, I didn’t know the difference until I started reading your stuff. Even when I read your “Core Values” post in April, I didn’t get it. I think I may be starting to understand more now. Remember when I posted about latching on the fact the exMM’s favorite novel was War & Peace as is mine and ran with that? We also loved softball, hiking, and sushi…the superficial secondary common interests were many. Apparently, I simply ignored the red flag that he did not respect his wife or his 27 year marriage, a very, very core value. I can see now how easy it is for me to be blinded by common interests as well as intelligence, get carried away making assumptions about how great we are together and how great we would be together (fantasy-land) while ignoring boundaries and red flags. I know that because I can make s**t up as I go along I need to stay grounded in reality and “ensure that 1) what you think is important and that they possess is actually in existence”. Enjoying War & Peace, playing softball and going for pizza and beer after the big game with a MM isn’t the foundation of a mutally caring, loving relationship. Duh! The dots of my past relationship insanity are starting to connect.
Loved your comments regarding marriage! Soooo true.
Runner, would you say you assume more people in the world share your core values or don’t?
I would have said before that most people value what I do: honesty, monogamy, nuance over crudeness, kindness, ambition and a number of other things. And then I find that my dating history suggests that isn’t true, or at least I don’t insist on it being true. Then I’m left with – I thought most people were nice and honest!
Then, the flip side: I have to ask myself if I really value what most people seem to – health (eating well, resting well), organization, loyalty, teamwork (or maybe just team sports!). And then I feel like I have to hide these weaknesses, because I just can’t seem to be “most people.”
I don’t think I’d thought through what my expectations have been around values: seems like in some areas I expect people to naturally share mine, and in others I expect myself to naturally fall short of others’, or “exceed” others.
It never occurred to me just how unique one’s personal constellation of values really is. Once I think of it that way, it’s almost impossible to assume that anyone you might might have a similar constellation.
Sorry to make my response to you more of a monologue, runner. I didn’t get what Nat was saying about primary and secondary values for a long time. I sit down to write a response and find myself thinking it through as I type and the synapses fire as I go.
I still can’t believe, in a way, that both people loving to hike and to read novels and make wonderful brunches isn’t enough. Then I think back to the conversations with the exAC, the words and tensions that were the real tone of all the forest walks and smoked salmon burrito breakfasts and I’m like, yeah, it all goes flat when you do what you love with someone who doesn’t FEEL things the same way you do. Eh?
Hi Magnolia,
I’m totally with you. It is amazingly deceptive when two people share common interests but do not share the underlying constellation (great vision) of core values. It is so easy to unconsiously extrapolate from interests to values and simply “assume” that core values are shared as well. Additionally, society stresses common interests and rarely mentions common core values.
I read your post regarding how you could have married your exAC and had “the fairy tale life” if you would have just gone along and played the role he sloted for you. Apparently, your constellation of core values were not his even though you shared reading, hiking, and smoked salmon breakfast burritos, sounds yummy though.
I’m only starting to flesh this out so it may not make much sense. After being the OW, I can see now that my common core values involve things like honesty, commitment, and respect. Based on those core values, I would have never gotten involved with a MM who obviously is dishonest, disrespectful, and can’t committ to anything. So, reading, hiking, playing sofball, and slipping shrimp on the bbq with someone who is dishonest, disrespectful, and can’t committ seems absurd or “flat” as you described it. I may not be making sense at this point which is why I’m looking forward to reading Natalie’s books. This self-esteem, consciousness, and self-reflection stuff can be confusing. Onward!
I think that when you have rarely been asked out, when your ex AC was the only person to ever approach you for something more than sex, after the break up it feels as though being single inst a choice, no matter how empowered or high yourself esteem is. This is because history has shown that men will not be lining up to date you and that part of the reason you dated your ex AC was that you couldn’t believe he was interested. This of course leads to the one off meeting of a guy you think may possibly be interested being a much bigger event than it should be and allowing yourself to get carried away with the assumptions in hopes that you won’t be that girl again who seems to be watching all her friends have good (and bad men) approach and date them while her options seem to be non existent always finding herself a friend as opposed to a girlfriend.
I had a discussion in one of the other posts – how to get over the fact that this attractive, great guy who’s obviously not good in terms of commitment etc (only wants to see you at weekends and considers himself unattached) – actually wants to spend time with you, and not just sleep with you, calls you, wants to know what you up to… if I follow Natalie’s advice I should dump him and be single, and I know that’s what is going to happen because its not doing me or my confidence any good – but its really hard to resist allowing yourself to have this bit of happiness, even if it’s sort of fake…when I’m with him I’m completely happy and feel like I can be myself; I wish I could feel this way without him! I used to, a long time ago…I know I need to work on myself and get my old self back, but it really sucks being single – especially since I moved recently and don’t have many friends, either…
Mima,
Why not get out and get involved in activities and clubs in your area? Look into Meetup.com and check out volunteering. I made a ton of friends through volunteering, and it is very rewarding.
What you do with you life is up to you! 🙂
I feel you Jane. I’ve only ever met guys online. I’ve never had someone come up to me in person and express an interest. Yet I get told I’m pretty and seem confident so I don’t know why that is. Maybe it has to do with self-worth.. maybe I’m projecting my insecurities in person and I come across much more confident in the online world. Maybe it’s because I’m not confident enough in myself to project my own interest in person. I guess if you’re not putting the vibe out, you’re not going to get approached? I don’t know.. I was only in the dating world for 7 months after being in a 9 year relationship with my first bf, turned husband, before I fell hard for my ex, the narcissist. And yet when I think of the ACs I found online, it’s not like that was any better, so maybe my insecurities get projected no matter the medium. It’s just easier for the ACs to find me online. I’m pretty good at recognizing bad seeds in person, but I think online my projections of them (and the nice feeling of being noticed) get in the way of my natural ability to read people.
Carrie is there any way you could explain your not getting approached in real life by the fact that not all men are not super confident. Why has it got to be about anything to do with YOU? Being superconfident is not about attributing things that go wrong or are not perfect in your life to YOU.
Hi Carrie,
Some people tell me I’m pretty or hot and there have been times when a guy has approached me. BUT, one waved his red flag within five minutes of speaking to me when he told me he just finished four beers with his buddies. Whether he was “socially” drinking or not, I was not going to dive into that possibility of dating another addicted person. I had another guy come up to me that clearly seemed stoned. And another that was plain ridiculous and I gave him the wrong phone number. So, you don’t always get quality guys coming up to you in person either. I wonder what the heck I’m projecting that says “Hey, all you addicts, clowns, abusives or alcoholics, come hither!”
I heard a woman say the other day that you don’t know what you’re doing wrong unless someone else tells you. So I only have inklings of what I could possibly be doing but overall haven’t a clue. Too bad there isn’t someone more “evolved” to walk around with me and point out where I could improve. Because “being myself” doesn’t seem to win me friends or lovers or ones that are healthy and last.
“And another that was plain ridiculous and I gave him the wrong phone number. ”
Color, you have me laughing! I totally understand how you feel – my friends call me the Player Magnet and say that egomaniacs flock to me. I don’t think that you’re doing anything wrong, maybe it’s just that now that you know what to look out for the dating pool seems much more polluted than before? Maybe you need a change of scenery? For instance, my friends and I like to patronize the bars in the financial district in my city, which tend to be populated with stockbrokers looking to add a few new faces to their harems (this is not to generalize, I’m SURE there are decent ones out there as well ). Hence, my chances of ending up knee deep in player playa advances are quite high. I don’t have any earth-shattering advice on this one, but sister…I feel you!
color
No woman gets approached by dozens of quality guys. There’s a percentage of drunkards, addicts and womanizers who are hitting on us all. You’re not projecting anything, it’s just what they do.
You only have to meet one good guy. Just keep sorting the wheat from the chaff until you find him.
Mima,
I agree with Allison, I have done what you are describing, and in the end, felt lonely and worse off and started questioning my value in and why he wouldn’t want more. On the other hand, I wanted more than what he was offering and was not being honest with myself. So, if you are truly satisfied with what you are receiving from the relationship, then go for it!
Best,
Melyha
Jane
I really hear what youre saying in terms of meeting ‘eligible’ guys. I go to all sort of sporting clubs, gym, volunteering, go out etc etc etc, I chat to people, make friends and seem to get on well with many people. But I dont know if I’ve ever really felt like a guy has made the first move and proceeded to ask me out on a date that I have really wanted to go on. I have in the past when i waw younger got attention or been asked out from guys who i really had no interst in at all. I have done online dating and will never put myself through that again it doesnt feel good to me but i have tried it several times.
The guys i meet out and about seem to be too young, or married or they just dont strike up a conversation.
I will keep on going to different activities, socialising going to sports clubs and trying out new clubs etc but I probably have done this alot more nmy whole life than many other of my female friends who are all in relationships. I guess it just takes me longer! :/
My favorite new phrase is: Reality Check!
I use my journal to vent my feelings , letting them all out, no matter how silly or inappropriate or unfounded or how many times I’ve scribbled down the same damn things.
Then I write in big, bold letters, REALITY CHECK, and write down the no-BS version of things.
He can’t give me what I want.
He is selfish.
He doesn’t want to be a different person.
He doesn’t mean it when he says he loves me, it’s just words to him.
It’s okay that I made a mistake.
Reality Check hurts. It makes me cry. But at least my tear-filled eyes are open.
I like that A LOT… I will write it down and repeat, over and over, untill it gets into my thick head…He can’t give me what I want.
He doesn’t mean it when he says he loves me, it’s just words to him.
It’s okay that I made a mistake..
thanks Spiral…((
Yes, yes, yes! I was a classic case of having someone be a right sh*t to me, and me thinking that I could master it intellectually, and put my emotions aside. Bzzt. Wrong. I have been emotionally dishonest in a previous relationship, and I have had someone be emotionally dishonest (and a tad more, it should be said) to me. Now I’ve finally seen the full picture (including my bullishness about these relationships working at any cost), and had the messages from this site drilled into my head, I find it so much easier to see dodgy, mismatchy behaviour, what is truly impressive in another person, and, above all, when I am started to give myself ways of avoiding being vulnerable and sabotaging. You almost always know more than you claim to know, and you almost always have a role in moulding bullsh*t.
Thats exactly what I tried to do!
Lol. Nat, I assumed that since my exEUM and now complete assclown didnt want to commit bc he was hurt by his ex, at a state of limbo in his life and wanted to travel. I was right, and I also assumed that when he left me for his ex, the love of his life, that he would ride off into the sunset and I would never hear from him again. WRONG, while he is rekindling his romance he wants to still make visits and date me. Lol. Ugh, jerkoff.
Also, re. marriage: I am in my early thirties, and, of about fifteen school pals who were married in their mid-late twenties, three have already gotten divorced (after these splendid weddings!). Some of my friends have lovely marriages, but they’re not relationships that would work for me. I think it’s dangerous to think of marriage as the gold-standard. Besides a few weeks of counselling, if you’re married in a church, for instance, there are no tests to ensure that the individuals have the habits and grace for a happy marriage. As other posters have said, any punk can get married! Also, many studies show that women, on average, report to be less happy after marriage (the converse can be said for men). I am not saying that marriage isn’t worthy, and stats can be very, very misleading. But I think the message of this site is far more honest and sustainable: self-esteem first, relationship second, title of that relationship as by-product.
“But I think the message of this site is far more honest and sustainable: self-esteem first, relationship second, title of that relationship as by-product.”
Love it sister. Only one of my friends who got married is divorced. When she got married we were all astounded that she “reformed” this player into a husband. It was a painful, infidelity-ridden disaster in the end and it lasted all of 3 years. As it turned out, he wanted a pretty wife to show off, but he didn’t want to stop playing when it suited him! Gross. The rest of my friends who are married or engaged are very happy. The men they married/are about to marry have been consistently decent, un-ambiguous, respectful of boundaries and available for a real relationship. In both of these instances (I’ll call them The Frog and The Princes), the guys were who they were and my friends are who they are, regardless of titles!
YOU ROCK! I recently subscribed to your blog and you really know how to deliver the truth and make me laugh. Not cry, but actually laugh. I look forward to reading more! I have more dating problems than I know what to do with – I wish I could just blame the men, but no, I need help – looks like I came to the right place. Thanks Nat!
I recently went on a date (well, I THINK it was a date, and that is part of the problem) with a very nice man I met through the local lit community. He comes to events I put on. Our conversations have been so-so, but I don’t expect love-at-first-sight or even conversationgasms on a first date anymore: those talky intensities just always blow up, it’s my pattern, and so I gave this guy a couple of shots.
Now I find myself very aware of my desire to try to engage because he hasn’t been in touch since the end of the “date” (invited me to an afternoon show at an outdoor festival and bought me lunch). At the end of our time he even stopped me to say he doesn’t have my number, so I gave it to him and he said he’d call. I emailed the next day to say thanks for a nice day and left it at that.
Last time we went out, there was radio silence for weeks afterward, then I went away. He got in touch when I came back and asked about my trip, so I figured perhaps he just called when I got back. But now again, radio silence.
I have the “old” side of me, that wonders: is he daft? How can he do that? How can he ignore an email after spending all afternoon. Why say he’ll call, etc etc. ESPECIALLY when the conversations we had all day were pretty normal, he asked about my family, remembered my siblings, etc. Why be all asking about my family and shit? I even entertained thoughts of actually opening up and giving a shit about this person.
But the new side of me is – (can I say “bothered-o-clock”? I don’t know WHAT the heck that means but I see it every time I post! and think it sounds fly!) If it means, can’t be bothered to BE bothered, then that’s about it. Bothered-o-clock. Dude didn’t call.
Registering the info: Nice to talk to in the moment; he’s got zilch on the follow through. No making excuses for the guy; he’s had two chances. Now I know that if he does get in touch, it will feel very weird to enforce this boundary, but if I said yes to another ambiguous outing, I’d feel as though I were ignoring the amber behaviour. And assuming that him taking me out twice and being nice means more than the disappearing in between.
I can’t assume anything other than what he presents. I could ask, I guess, but it’s only two dates. Next.
Hey Magnolia,
Sounds like you’re being beautifully rational about this. COuldn’t agree with you more.
From experience, i think of it like this: the beginnings of dating a new person is always the ‘best behaviour’ stage. At least for the first couple of months. This is the time when someone who is genuinely interested and available will make a concerted effort to get to know you, to not future fake, but to make it perfectly clear that they are interested and would like to see where things go. That’s why it’s a discovery phase. If this is your guy’s ‘best behaviour’ what is normal behaviour going to be like??! If he is half-arsed at the beginning, he’s going to be a complete and utter arse in the future, i’m guessing. I think there are some things you CAN assume. 🙂
Magnolia,
the guy has got to have a pretty good reason for this non contact especially when he said he would. So just don’t bother with him. Sounds like as total waste of your time to me.
You mentioned that its seems wierd to enforce boundaries but actually it isn’t. I recently had a friend from the past contact me. They were totally crap at returning messages. I just told them straight that their behaviour was unacceptable and that I didn’t take friends on offended my sense of politeness by not being able to return communications.
Have I heard from this dipshit friend again…no. We just don’t have the same standards and I am cool with that. Bu-bye!
I’ve got one for you. As I previously posted, I got out of my comfort zone and attended a meetup group last weekend and met some nice folks, including an unattached kinda interesting guy. Within the group discussion, we found we had some shared interests. We all exchanged numbers and planned to attend another function this weekend. Last night, I got a one line text from the guy “Not gonna make it tomorrow”. Yup, a TEXT! I laughed and hit delete, although I wanted to text back “Who cares kinda interesting guy”. Prior to BR, I would have spent a ton of energy analyzing the hell out of that one line text message!
In thinking about your situation with bothered-o-clock ambiguous guy, would reliability be a core value? Doing what they say they will do or following through seems to be pretty important, right? What would be the core value that would relate to ambiguity? They tell us, through their actions or words, who they are right from the start.
I can start to see where if you consciously know your core values and boundaries, it makes it easier to screen out the white noise or ambiguous behavior. You didn’t know if it was a date?
Mag,
This was only a few hours of your life. Hon, you’re putting way too much energy into this situation. Perhaps, he just wanted to go out as friends.
I would let this one go, as it sounds like he has.
Allison,
I find your tone inappropriate. This blog should be a safe place to work out what is and isn’t “too much energy.” Seeing your response, I felt condescended to and that really angered me. It is difficult enough to come to this blog and admit that I need help without being addressed as “hon” and told I’ve put too much thought into a situation that I think – if you actually read what I said – I handled quite reasonably.
I think it takes a lot of energy to learn new skills and behaviors. For me, at first it takes longer/requires more thought and energy to deal with old situations in new ways, and as I learn how to act in my own best interests doing so becomes more natural and more automatic.
This is why it’s so hard to change– because it’s not easy! Good work, Magnolia- you are staying clear about what you deserve and you’re acting on your gut!
This is thought-provoking. I’m all for looking out for red flags but I think we should be careful of being too judgemental. The problem with writing men off as a dickheads is that you start seeing them everywhere and it gets disheartening. It’s a balancing act, and best done with a light heart. Just tell yourself it wasn’t meant to be and skip along.If we don’t pin our hopes on it too early, that makes it easier to do.
Maybe these guys were just making polite conversation, or enjoying a flirtation, or they got home and were not longer feeling it, or their ex got in touch, or they’re not ready to date, or they’d rather spend the rest of their lives home alone, or they’re not sufficiently attracted or just can’t be bothered. It’s not a big deal and doesn’t have to affect us any which way.
If men were obliged to follow up with every woman they spoke to, they’d never speak to us again!
All that said, if a man is genuinely interested and available, you will KNOW. I say, if you don’t know, it’s not happening.
Magnolia,
It wasn’t meant to come off that way.
I use the term “hon” as one of endearment, I was not trying to sound condescending.
I know that you are struggling, and I have seen your growth but, I do think we-myself included- have to careful not to put to much into someone before we have gotten to know them much better.
Good luck.
Argh – I have to watch it – writing about stuff that I *thought* was no big deal can be interpreted, in itself, as making a big deal out of something!
This post was about assumptions. I just meant to say what Grace said: I can’t assume anything about why this person didn’t call, so next.
Now that WE have talked about it this much, I am doubting myself, and my ability to communicate, and wondering if I did something terribly wrong to drive away this man who could have been the love of my life …
kidding!
(sort of)
But I AM interested in whether you all think it’s an assumption to treat being asked out by a man like a date. Do you all assume it’s friendly until he makes a move?
For example, in this case, if it is dating, and he were to call again, and say let’s go out, I’d be like – wtf? Weeks between dates? But if it’s just friendly, then I have less expectations – I could hang out with him for events and don’t expect a follow up call if I know there’s nothing going on underneath.
Do you all just simply ask at the outset? Seemed like that might be awkward.
Maybe it doesn’t matter? If not, can someone say why not?
Hi Magnolia,
Why not ask if it’s a date or not if you’re wondering? You have nothing at all to lose. Maybe it’ll be awkward, or maybe it’ll lead to more info. for you to go on.
Magnolia,
You bring up a good question. Is it automatically a date if a man asks you out? Unless he is a relative, or the fact that it is NOT a date is established at the outset, I would assume yes. Rather than having to awkwardly ask that question, just assume it is.
Here is why I say that. I think most men ask a woman out because there is at least some level of romantic interest. Now, some men are more cautious about how they go about exploring that interest. I.e., they may ask you to lunch, instead of dinner, or they may ask you to a group function, so that they are not committed to spending the evening with just you.
Then the experience and follow-up will tell you the rest of the story. From what you wrote above, it sounds like you have a very healthy assessment of your situation. And your reaction seems to be one of calmly interpreting it. I agree with izzybell, in that it may take more energy to learn these new skills, and your post on here is to bounce your thoughts off of us, and to get some outside perspective and support as you learn these new skills. I think you are doing a great job.
As for this guy being a romantic interest, I think you are right to say next, as a romantic relationship needs momentum and consistency, and the long silences in between can kill that. If he does call again to go out, you can just ask yourself if you want to see him as a friend. Why leave it up to him to define this? If long radio silences are a deal-breaker for romantic involvement (and it would be for me, too), then he has missed the boyfriend train, and has now been seated in the friendship car.
I guess it’s like Nat says, “Dating is a discovery phase”. Just because you go out, does not commit anyone to following up, etc. And you are discovering who he is at the very beginning.
Two weeks later he has emailed again, asking me out to an event next weekend. I look at what I said … at all your responses …
I just do not want to be taken for granted again. I do not want to be misled again. I am so hypervigilant about not getting used that I don’t even know whether to be insulted or not at the long breaks in between. Perhaps I could be gracious about the prospect of a new friend. If I didn’t feel stirred up (is he toying with me? does he just want to see if I will be at his beck and call?) maybe this could just be someone who likes to have company to local events.
I see now that a couple of invites out triggers me feeling like someone is sniffing around to see if they can abuse me.
I also understand why that might make me put way more energy into analyzing something that could be innocent, or at least, not such a big deal. The reality of trying to know if this person (or anyone showing interest) is in fact showing signs of potential abusiveness, or of wanting to add to his harem, is quite unsettling.
I feel like crying. I feel like going to hurt the guy for scaring me – see how he likes it. That makes me feel crazy.
Sigh. Somehow, I have to figure out what to do with this out-of-proportion panic.
I can be responsible for my own safety. I can forgive myself for past errors in judgment. I can only try to do better, and if I make another mistake, just cut my losses and move on.
Actually, Natalie, I think elsewhere you wrote that it sounds like my body is saying I’m not ready. Hmm. I’ve had panic attacks when guys have kissed me on dates before … it’s not just about getting over the last AC … when did the panic attacks start? I’ll think about that, some.
Natalie- brilliant. In scientific terms, what you describe is called argument by analogy, or syllogistic reasoning. Because two things share one or two traits in common, it is argued that they are alike and can therefore substitute for each other. It is the weakest, least valid form of argument on the planet. Ex: Mrs. O’Reilly has red hair, Irish people have red hair therefore Mrs. O’Reilly is Irish. Idiotic. We do the exact same in love. I know I did. I assumed that because we worked together and were both in our forties, he wouldn’t possibly mess me around. I assumed that because we were both educated and had shared histories, he wanted what I wanted. I assumed that because he sort of acted like he wanted a relationship, he must have wanted it. Of course, his future faking and flip-flopping helped me come to that conclusion but if I had been honest at any point in the proceedings, I would have seen I was in it 110% and he was in it may 12%. That I tried to make up his other 88% just made me a fool. Assumptions kill, in medicine, life and love. Even if he half-assed says something, if his actions are screaming otherwise, stop assuming. Another incredible lesson learned.
@ Nat and Debra – this is what I LOVE about this site. First, Nat’s insightful and wise beyond anyone’s years observations about relationships, values, boundaries, self-esteem… but equally, how bloody bright so many of the posters here are. It’s one of the few blogs that offers up gems from both sides of the equation. Thank you!
The last guy I dated did not have the same values as me, which gradually made me lose respect for him as things were revealed. I ignored it for a while because of my strong physical attraction to him, our common interests, and I liked the affection. These lack of values came out little by little, so were minimized by him, and even twisted to make me look judgemental for questioning him. Looking at the following list, it was a mountain of reasons to opt out and I can’t believe I fell for the poor victim act he played with me.
The difference in values were pretty profound actually.
1. I am straight and don’t smoke or do drugs, he sells pot and has a history of doing some drugs, said he still likes to do coke every now and then. Says he doesn’t do ‘bad’ drugs. (his words)????? He hangs with people who are doing hard drugs. ( not talking about pot here.)
2. I was a struggling single Mom who never received a penny of support for my son, money or otherwise from his absent dad. He refuses to pay child support for his two girls because he doesn’t believe in it, and said his ex wife is the one who chose to leave, so why should he have to pay her. He owes at least 8 years worth and they took away his drivers license because of it. His children don’t live with him. (probably a good thing) He still drives without a license, and drinks beer at the wheel while driving intoxicated on a daily basis (occasionally with his daughters in the car). This REALLY bothers me on many levels, as a parent and fellow driver on the road.
3. I am monogamous and don’t find it hard to do, he says monogamy isn’t natural and only a symptom of societal guilt and although he chose to be monogamous with me, it isn’t natural. He had a roving eye…matter of time????
4. I am very responsible and don’t steal from or cheat people. I witnessed him shoplift over the counter medicine at the store. (he said the rich bastards didn’t deserve his money)
Anyway, I jumped head first into the madness with him because I was living in la la land and assumed things would be different with a good woman like me. I sold myself out and assumed too many things and let him twist the facts. After reading it listed out, I am ashamed I was with him and feel kind of sick to my stomach.
It’s rare that I’m speechless but reading your comment took my breath away for the sheer crackerjack come assholery of it all. And….breathe.
After reading what I wrote, it hit me that something is wrong with him on a level that I didn’t fully admit until I saw it compiled in a list. It hit me that something is also wrong with me . I am not a bad person but the sheer desperation and denial that I just saw in myself scares the shit out of me. I cancelled my remark because after reading it back to myself, the feeling of nausea and shame hit me like a load of bricks and I didn’t want to share it with the world. You wouldn’t know it to meet me, I really appear to have it all to together. I feel stuck in this maze of dysfunction. I cant find my way out fast enough. I didn’t cancel it in time.
@Jennynic: Don’t beat yourself up for this! Many of us have been through similar experiences. It’s good for you to finally see the light, but I don’t think there is anything wrong with you.
I’ve put up with a lot of antisocial behavior in lovers and friends, although I’m personally quite well behaved and law-abiding. It recently struck me how antisocial my own mother was, in spite of her “super-religious” and “super-conservative” surface.
Momster lied habitually, she was incredibly lazy, she drank alcohol (hard stuff) every morning, she had lots of lovers before she married my unlucky father (and maybe even after that, who knows), and she made pervert remarks all the time. However, she always made me believe I was the “immoral” one while she was perfect.
One little example: She always insisted on me obeying all kinds of “rules”, even the most ridiculous ones. She punished me for the smallest, purely formal “transgressions”. “Laws” were everything. One the other hand, the one time I called her out on the fact that she habitually parked in no-parking zones, she seemed ready to kill me. How dared I to claim there was anything wrong with this!!!! I was probably 9 or 10 years old back then. Sigh.
No wonder I fell for all those other idiot’s lies.
jennynic,
honey, my heart did a little seize for you when i read your post.
“I am not a bad person but the sheer desperation and denial that I just saw in myself scares the shit out of me.” <---I'm glad it's scaring you. It should. You recognize that it's desperation & denial-that is KEY. I am recognizing this in myself & it's what causes us to make unhealthy choices-the desperation for love & affection (should have be given proper amounts in chilhood, but learning here how to give it to ourselves now). The thing is the faith-faith in ourselves that we are worth good love & love ourselves enough. I'm building that now from therapy, this site, etc...I'm still having a tough time with letting go of my dude, but I'm pleased to say that I am no longer obsessing about analyzing him & have taken a very keen interest in figuring me, my past, etc... That is what has been the epiphany here for me-Natalie's constant urging to focus on yourself & what is making you choose this. Love you NML! Hang in, jennynic 🙂
I had the SAME revelation about myself and it was so humiliating! I see myself as someone with strong self control. Materially I can go without for the long term gain. BUT I have less discipline when deciding to stay with a douche who should have been thrown back! I’m just too hungry to think straight! I’ve been stuck in the double bind of being emotionally starved AND being emotionally unavailable. So I’m going for long stretches alone and then in a fit of desperation, picking the wrong dudes. Desperation is like the enemy in dating. It will have you nodding and going along with some unbelievable shite.
Now Im a lover of AC of the most Toxic Type…Cheaters. Cant help it my father was a Womaniser, every woman he met thought he was the Second Coming…. However reading this post even I can spot a few Red Flags. Its scary when we put our Divine Intervention Hat on the damage we can do to ourselves. Hope your recovering from this total waste of space. Thats being polite!
Wow, Jenny, when you line it up like that it’s pretty stark.
But I am guilty of same! Dating guys who drink way more than I do; hanging out in my twenties with people who were into ‘open’ relationships and deciding I must be the square and conservative one; guys who stole (“from The Man”/”corporate big business” only – ok – that makes it cool, right?); and guys who “only lie to people I don’t know, never to you” …
It HAS to have been a low self-esteem issue because there is nothing inherently wrong with not being a party girl – defined as a girl who is up for anything and everything. But I’ve always allowed guys to imply that I was “closed minded” or “uptight” and I guess I believed them.
Argh. And then these same guys, if I smoke a joint, will happily either tsk-tsk me or use the fact that I smoke occasionally as justifying their habits. Hmm – just remembering how the guy who always had to have beer in the house used to encourage me to relax and smoke more pot. I went from once every couple of months to every day living with him, and he was like, it’s okay, enjoy! You can imagine what kind of leverage I had when he came home drunk and impossible. Well. That was my bad; not his.
Hmm. I guess I am kind of afraid of guys who say they want “a good girl,” because I believe that despite my monogamous heart I’m still open-minded in a number of departments, but I’m also irresponsible in other ways and so maybe ….
…. man, I know how this ends. BR – it’s like a constant headsmack up in here! Maybe picking these irresponsible guys helped me avoid my own sense of irresponsibility. Maybe I’m afraid of living up to the standards of a guy who hopes for some order and constancy in his life.
And so on.
This is something I needed to read even though I am not going through this at the moment. I know, I mean I KNOW I have a huge tendency to think this way when placed in certain situations. I love this article. Thanks for sharing it.
Great post! And this “check your assumptions” stuff works in the other direction too. By that, I mean, if you assume something BAD about them, you should check your assumptions too. Sometimes, there is another side to the story.
Oh, and I am using your advice in my workplace relationships too.
Thanks
No one thing or even a few things ‘makes’ a person and what many people are doing is taking something and using their beliefs while giving themselves too much credit for their judgement, and then extrapolating it and correlating it to the rest of the person and giving them qualities, characteristics and values they don’t possess.
I think this is a very good point to apply to relationships. I have been with the same man for 15 yrs. I have been guilty of making way too many assumptions, not reality checking and the like. I put me and my needs or wants on the back burner to try to get what I am not capable of giving myself. Now at this time I am so lost and confused I wouldn’t know reality if it walked up and slapped me in the face. Relationships are complicated but shouldn’t be if you have all of the right elements. I think I have been in fantasy land for so long I don’t even know what the real world is like.
Great post:
I think that we womyn also tend to “settle” for someone that we know da#$%& well are not for us out of frustration with the dating world. Yep, you have to have some degree of flexibility but remember; if he hates your core values, he basically hates YOU. Even friends have to share some core values with you otherwise the friendship will detract rather than add to your life. In addition to facing that someone I cared deeply for was a cheater, I had to end a four year friendship because it was too destructive, especially under my current situation. Yeah, I miss having someone to talk to other than the cat herd, but it is nice to not be constantly criticized for my environmentalism, traditions, my work ethic etc.
So true Miskwa… “if he hates your core values, he basically hates YOU.
I came to this realization with my ex..he was intelligent, interesting and affectionate, at the same time as having no conscience, moral integrity or adherence to social mores..it was so confusing and weird and I spent many an hour trying to understand how he could be all those “positive things” while simultaneously being souless….
The interesting intellectual talks and affection is what kept me there longer than I should have been despite my gut screaming..
When we broke up, he quickly hooked up with a woman who was in a “loveless marriage”..he kept calling me and proposed an open relationship…uh NO!!
It was like the clouds cleared and I finally saw him for who he was….I started to really see how cooly manipulative he was and how he was simultaneously manipulating a number of women who he told me were “friends”….
No amount of intellect could make me ignore his blatant lack of values…it was time for me to face the music and see him for who he was…he was showing me clearly….it was time to take off the rose colored glasses and get real…let him find someone without values to roll around in the muck together…sounds like he did…good luck to the two of them..she; cheating on her husband and he; providing the “loving” she’s not getting….Idiots!! I’m well shot of him.
Loved what you said “woman arent getting hitched at 16 anymore”…chuckles. What you say makes perfect sense… Because someone is a certain age, race, status, etc has no bearing to who the core of the person is… And the truth is…. Bc we were scared of being vulnerable, intimacy etc… We took shortcuts by making assumptions….playing the victim and not operating from an authentic reality.
This, as usual, is amazing. I’ve been hanging around this site for quite a few months, and have made some serious improvement in my emotional life. Thanks so much.
Recognizing a lack of shared core values, for me, has so far eliminated the fantasy of the guy. I recently was just chatting with someone, getting to know them, and found out that we are totally opposite on most core values (for e.g. I am a Christian, he is not). I told him he was great, very kind, but that I wouldn’t be pursuing anything past a friendship because our values were different, no judgment. He of course accused me of being close-minded, etc. I said nothing, just walked away.
Though I am always up for a good debate with friends, the truth is, I don’t want to have to justify why I feel the way I do about certain issues to my partner. I don’t want life to be a constant debate about what is right and what is wrong. No one agrees on everything, but why make things harder? A year ago, heck, six months ago, I would have second guessed myself for being judgmental or something like that. Today, I just say, “next.”
Thank you, Nat, and everyone on here. Every day I become stronger and more comfortable being me. Very grateful!
I’m in a relationship with a MM and in the beginning, we had so much in common – we had shared interests, we’d been through similar situations in our past, we were attracted to each other, and we had the same humor. For a long time I held onto those things during the rough patches and told myself that because of them, he was the one for me.
It’s been almost two years now and our “relationship” has all but totally fallen apart. I thought that I was holding onto those common bonds we once had, but even those have diminished; it’s like he’s a completely different person from the one I met and fell in love with. Lately he’s done nothing but make me feel bad about myself and propel me into crying spells. The person in front of me isn’t someone I want to care about anymore, but I still do. I don’t even know what I’m holding onto anymore, but it’s tearing me apart. We clearly don’t share the same values because I give so much of myself to him to get less than crumbs back in return…I’m getting exhausted.
Jennynic, I can feel the pain in your words and I want you to know you’re not alone. While the man I’m seeing isn’t doing illegal things, he still doesn’t exhibit the qualities I want in a husband and father of my children (if god willing I have them one day), yet I’m still hopelessly in love with him (or in love with who I thought he used to be). I too feel like there’s something wrong with me a) because I stick around and b) because I can’t get him to change, and that I can’t do anything right. But I think the first step is admitting that we deserve better than this, even if we’re not ready to take action on it yet, and I’ve finally said the words aloud: “I deserve better” just the other day. I’d like to think it starts there and hopefully I can keep moving forward.
Bri, Jennynic and anyone else who feels they love an unavailable, assclown, or someone who does things very far outside your values, I want to say this to you:
This isn’t about there being something wrong with you or about you cocking up in not being able to change him. It’s also about not intellectualising the fact that you’re in love with someone who either doesn’t love you/is a dipstick and then thinking ipso facto, there must be something even greater wrong with you for loving someone like this.
If you were in love with who the man *is* then it’d be one thing – but you’re in love with who the man *isn’t*.
Nat
That’s exactly it – we’re in love with the man he isn’t.
Bri – the relationship hasn’t fallen apart over two years. Over two years the truth has been revealed – you’re having an affair with a married man and you feel how all OWs feel. The person he is now is what he always was – I’m guessing he’s shifty, irresponsible, selfish, a bit mean, and unreliable. You haven’t made him into this, he HAD to be that to get involved with a young woman when he was married and drag it out for as long as you stick around. He was on his best behaviour in the beginning, playing up the charm, connection, and seduction but that can’t last. especially not when he has a wife. And as for rough patches, it’s all one long rough patch when you’re trying to get someone else’s husband to act like your committed boyfriend. It’s impossible and nothing you do can make it happen.
I would agree, and say that I miss the man he *isn’t* and who he pretended to be for a while (with the help of my blinders.) The man he *is* comes out of hiding and then back in to the “nice but injured guy” mode. I stumbled on this one for a few reasons I think, one is that my self esteem is low and I don’t trust my own judgment. I kept rechecking to see if I was over reacting to things ( he said I was) and don’t want to be such a hard ass that I drive everybody away that isn’t perfect. He is far from perfect and has issues that are way beyond healthy but I let his critical words about me make me question myself and doubt my perception. Why? That is what I can’t answer with certainty. Why do I doubt myself so much and why do I let the opinion of a guy who is swimming in issues bring me down. Does it boil down to low self esteem? Fear of rejection? My need for validation to feel worthy? Childhood scars? I have been reading this blog for about a year and I GET IT on a literal level all the concepts and reasons that Nat writes about. It all makes sense, and I have *aha* moments, so why do I have so much trouble applying it to real situations in my own life. I don’t want to be a hard ass, but it seems like I need to be a drill sergeant when it comes to my own life or I lose my sense. I wish I could be calm and confident about my expectations in people, but I come from a place of emotion. I AM emotional and empathic, but it seems to derail me. I can say that I was feeling good about myself before I started dating this guy and felt confident and ready that I would be smarter this time around after learning so much, but I went down the shit road again. It didn’t turn into years this time, but 5 or 6 months shouldn’t have happened either. I’m not in contact with him anymore, I ended the relationship a while back but now as I take a closer look at the wreckage I feel I don’t know who I am or how to help myself. I think maybe seeing a therapist to help me figure out how to apply all this stuff I learned to my real everyday life needs to happen. I thought I could climb out of the muck and mire alone, but I’m not making it happen. I need this to change. I am so tired of feeling like this.
I’ve been away for a couple of days but wanted to come back to you. To be honest with you Jennynic, you could stand to do some overreacting as in exceeding your normal level of reaction to what are quite frankly jawdropping behaviours. Please – *overreact*. You’d actually find that your incidences of being involved with these pisstakers become a no-go area. The whole nobody is perfect argument is old and tired (https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/why-you-need-to-drop-the-but-nobodys-perfect-we-all-have-baggage-argument/), and it’s just not even the beginnings of a plausible excuse for putting up with inappropriate and sometimes dangerous behaviour that have no place in *any* relationship.
I mean, look back at what you wrote about this man and then ask yourself/tell me, how on earth you can doubt yourself? Are you telling me he wasn’t an alcoholic? That he didn’t forgo paying child support? That he doesn’t drive illegally and sometimes with his children in the car? People like him are immoral and take no responsibility so he was never going to agree with your assessment of him. What did you want him to say “Yes Jenny. You’re totally right. Now that you’ve pointed it out I’m going to stop being an alcoholic and driving illegally. I had no idea before you came into my life that these things are dangerous and wrong. Where have you been all my life? Love me! Save me!”
Jenny, he knows that what he is doing is wrong.
I’m sure he thinks the lawmakers are overreacting too until he kills someone. I call it as I see it Jennynic and even if you had never told me another thing, the child support and driving illegally make this an open and shut case of assholery.
You know when you’ll truly be tired of feeling like this? When you stop making excuses for this man, stop rationalising, minimising and denying crap behaviour, and stop trying to be the exception to the rule. Nothing that I am saying to you about his behaviour is a ‘special case’ scenario. It’s not like you would go somewhere else and have people recommend you be involved with an alcoholic, deadbeat dad and law breaker. This situation hasn’t been designed to put Jennynic to the test – any person that comes along and gets involved with someone who has any of these factors, will get burned.
I agree with all you say about him and about me. This guy is a loser and I tried to force respect out of him. I have been thinking about all this and feel like I am having a mini breakthrough. I went from not asserting my boundaries in relationships in my past to learning how to have boundaries and what they are…..the problem is, I am still interacting with losers and assclowns and trying out my new boundaries on them…..it doesn’t work. They aren’t receptive to anyone telling them they are wrong or that their behavior is disrespectful. I haven’t been able to bridge the gap between having boundaries and getting respect because I am barking up the wrong tree instead of opting out when it was apparent. I tried to force this guy to respect me, he doesn’t respect anyone. I understand that I should of walked away when I started to learn who he really was and not tried to assert boundaries with this guy, it was pointless. So……learning to have boundaries doesn’t amount to anything if you are trying them out on unlikely people. I ended up getting told that I was out of my mind and critical (and insecure, crazy, out of touch, difficult, bitch )….instead of getting any respect. I kept trying. I took it personal and started to feel like something was wrong with me because he said so and because I wasn’t being acknowledged or heard. I am coming back to earth now. Truth is, I have a hard time knowing how to assert boundaries, I have been met with so much resistance in the past that I feel like I approach this with my fist in the air ready for my defense. I seem to encounter this a lot in my life, people pushing my boundaries. It seems to happen in my friendships and work too. This is where I doubt myself, my approach or even the way people see me.
Jenny
Don’t interact with ACs and EUMs at all unless it’s your job (policeman, A & E nurse, criminal lawyer), in which case follow your training. Or they’re your family, in which case limit the time you spend with them and structure it so there’s no opportunity for them to pick on you. Maybe you work with them? If your workplace is full of them, consider leaving or just getting very thick skinned and ignore it.
Otherwise, avoid. There’s nothing to be gained from interacting with users and abusers in the hope that they will see the light or to get practice in Idiot Handling. Just stay away. It’s not about being weak, it’s about being strong enough to know that they’re a waste of your time.
Most people will start doubting themselves when they’re being insulted and disrespected. That’s why we don’t stick around trying to prove we can “take it”. Just … leave it. And that includes leaving the self-doubt and wondering what it is about you that attracts this behaviour. The only thing you’re doing “wrong” is being in their vicinity.
jennynic,
it’s not easy at first – like you say, once you get boundaries doesn’t mean you immediately stop picking the kind of people you used to before you got them.
I like that Natalie sometimes models the reaction we *could* have to these behaviours when we encounter them. What she models as totally, undisputably jaw dropping is where we have been like – well, who am I to say? For every one of the Natalies in my life saying this is open-and-shut there have been ten people telling me: his behaviour isn’t so bad, or their own behaviour isn’t so bad, and I’m crazy, critical, etc.
One of the best things about this blog is that it brings together a critical mass of women who all can react from a place of self esteem: voice 1 – the man you describe is an AC. voice 2 – he’s an AC. Voice 3 – he’s an AC. Then we feel supported in our own judgment. When we’re on our own, it’s just our opinion against theirs, we have yet to learn to rely on our own assessment.
One of the most exciting and scary parts of this learning curve is feeling like someone is handing ME a set of robes and a wig and a gavel and saying, guess what? When it comes to your own life, and your own ethics, YOU are the judge. You make the call.
I mean, if you really KNEW that you are the only authority in your personal life, and someone brought your ex into your courtroom, and said to you: we are here to determine whether this man is fit for a healthy relationship, how would you rule?
Half the battle, it seems, is getting over the feeling that nice girls don’t judge others. Or feeling like we don’t have the skills (who does? we all work on intuition and experience) to judge others. When it comes to who gets to be at our side and in our bodies, we judge.
Bri and Jennynic,
For what it is worth, the first words out of my exMM’s mouth after I agreed to being “in” were “but you deserve better” followed by “this isn’t fair to you” followed by a long, dreamy kiss. It took 2 years of OW despair and lots of tears, then 7-8months of faux NC and lots of tears, and a heavy dose of BR and even more tears, for me to realize I did deserve better, being a mistress wasn’t fair to me, and I was in love with a man who wasn’t. CRINGE. You both deserve better too! Although I’m not totally on the other side yet, it really does get better most days.
I’m headed to my second Meetup function and very grateful for this post regarding common interests vs. shared values.
Wishing you the best.
Thank you Runner. I’m not heartbroken over this like I was after a four year stint with the ex AC but I do have up days and down days. I have tried to get out and be more social, like you, and it does help since I tend to hibernate. I checked out *meetup* in my area and found a group focused on photography, which would be fun and educational all in one. I’ll look into it. Friday I went on a date with a guy (introduced by a friend of mine) who doesn’t drink at all, doesn’t do drugs, has a job, paid for the date and was overall pretty normal. Did I feel fireworks? No. I did like him, but don’t want to make this about finding a new guy, just about enjoying getting to know someone and go from there. Plus, I am trying not to assume anything about this guy, including that this will lead to a relationship. One day at a time. Every day is a new challenge and lesson, isn’t it.
Hi Jennynic, yup everyday is a new lesson and a new challenge. Good for you on your date and the new photo group. Do check it out. It is hard for me to get out of my comfort zone too i.e. school, the gym, grocery store. And most of all, congratulations for getting out after only 5 to 6 mos. instead of years. That’s progress! I’m reading Natalie’s “No Contact Rule” (8 months late) and it is full of wonderful information that is starting to sink in. One of my problems in sticking to NC, among many, is when I get nostalgic and remember who I thought he was and what we did together. “Another component of nostalgia is believing that you have so much in common with him. The reality is that you may both like opera, reading high brow books, the outdoors, and laughing at bird jokes, but this doesn’t mean a damn thing if it doesn’t add positively to your relationship. These are just ‘interests’ but if you’re not compatible on values and you’re not compatible in a mutual love, respect, care, and trust of one another, you really don’t have a lot in common.” This is a great lesson, the difference between shared interests vs. shared values.
Natalie’s description of the fear of rejection and need for validation really resonated with me and it sounds like it may fit in your current circumstance. I think I’m finally getting the fact that his issues are his issues. “They don’t want permanency and they don’t want to connect, and they don’t want the responsibility that comes with being in a genuine relationship. They’re not ‘rejecting’ you; they’re rejecting having to behave like a half decent guy in a relationship that feels responsible to someone, has to be committed, and loves, trusts, cares, and respects.” His inability to committ to a genuine relationship then triggered my abandonment, fear of rejection, and need for validation. Hang in there. I’m hopeful that understanding my past will help in the future. The No Contact Rule is another great book even if you aren’t struggling with maintaining NC.
Natalie, I always wondered how you met your bf…a charity event that you weren’t so keen on attending, perfect!
Hi Runner
Hope this is not too late, but the ‘oh this isn’t fair to you’. I got ‘I know I’m hurting you’. Now with distance, I can see that it meant diddly. It didn’t actually ‘bother’ him or make him treat me like someone of value; it was just something he noted. Like bird watching. So he acknowledged he was an a/c, he just wasn’t going to do anything about it. So I had to [sounds of feet running away]. Sigh..but yes, the times when we remember all we shared. Er..I think, in hindsight, we didn’t share at all. He took. I gave.
Hey Outergirl,
Isn’t it amazing how they tell us exactly who they are right up front whether it’s an EUM, AC, or greedy MM or all of the above? I’ll be all ears next time a guy says “this isn’t fair to you”. In fact, I’ll be all ears period. I got “I know I’m hurting you” constantly too. Being me, I thought I could handle it and I assumed he’d choose me for being such a trooper. Wrong assumption. He used me for being such a trooper. Good point about the times “we shared”. The more I gave, the more he took. I assumed trooper; he saw sucker! Thank you for that. I’ll remember that the next time I get misty eyed. Distance does help bring some clarity.
Once again – right on que!
I’ve just been out on a date and was really taken with him because he’s a paramedic! I felt totally relaxed with him, trusted him, SLEPT with him (I know!!!) but now he’s totally backed off! But it’s fine because I’ve just read your blog and am so over him! I’ll know better next time :o)
I think what had me sucked in for longer than was needed, were with his words said he agreed with my values shared them etc. took a long long time to see that his words were saying one thing and his actions said another thing altogether and that was despite the fact it was smacking me in the face we had completely different vaues.
For example yes I agree with you a sexual relationship should be mogamous, then later oh Im sorry I had sex with so and so… but yes I agree with you. Even the second time we got back together he still agreed with me but 4 months in he was calling me to see if I was okay with him having sex with other women.
Its hard to take that I took him at his word instead of looking at his actions which told me all I needed to know.
This post reminds me of the quote….”I believe in looking reality straight in the eye….and denying it.” Garrison Keillor …
How many more posts does Natalie have to write before we get on with our lives????
I wish I had found this blog years ago, I would have saved myself so much grief!! I completely agree with everything you said and have realized that living in a fantasy of how I wanted things to be, is actually a complete nightmare! My “ex” is MR. UNAVAILABLE (all caps for a reason) and I have even found myself feeling badly for his other exes, even to the extent that I had contemplated reaching out to them to give them moral support. Of course I realized that the problem is I can’t “save” or “protect” anyone but myself. Your blog has been like a splash of ice water in my face of denial and I am indebted to you for sharing your experience and insights. Thank you!!
Hi, I love this post. I couldn’t agree more. I really identified with the post on the reasons women choose men and why they shouldn’t, because I have in the past been guilty of most of them. I have a problem where if someone is educated and has a good job, I think he must be a good person, when that’s just not the case.
I received a lot of help from everyone on this website including Nat a while ago when I posted about a guy friend I once dated who I had a very bad interaction with – he would criticise me constantly and tell me what to do – it was in retrospect very abusive.
I just wanted to say that I haven’t spoken to him since that weekend. It’s been very hard, but I have been on no contact. I told him briefly by email that I blocked him from my emails and phones and that I didn’t want him in my life anymore. I wouldn’t have had the courage to do it, or to even realise that I needed to do it, unless I had received the support on this page. The thing that is difficult for me is that I have really started to miss him lately. Even though every time we spoke it was just control and abuse, I miss him for some reason.
I haven’t seen any counsellors about it, because I am not in the UK, so where I am from counsellors or psychiatrists are all very expensive. Instead I’ve been doing a lot of journalling and talking to one of my friends who is very supportive. She thinks that I was in a situation where I was like a battered woman, even though there was no physical violence and that I had become accustomed to it.
Anyway, that’s where I am now, taking no contact day by day. Thank you everyone who helped me before, I really appreciate it.
Lavender,
I’m so glad to hear that you haven’t been in touch.
I won’t say missing a man such as your ex-‘friend’ is ‘normal’, as Natalie has helped me see: it’s so important not to normalize bad behaviour.
But I can relate to missing someone who was verbally abusive. I didn’t miss the abuse, but I missed feeling like there was *someone* was “close” enough to me to call at intimate times, someone who was relating to the part of me that needed attention.
I have been in a 12-step group for dysfunctional families – it’s free, maybe there is one in your area, or even AA, if your family background has any element of alcoholism that connects to you having normalised abusive behaviour. I can’t afford personal counselling right now either. The meetings and this blog have provided the support I’ve needed to make some major gains in my self esteem and expectations for love, care, trust and respect.
Natalie has been around for a number of years and I do hope her site is around for some years more, because it is a wonderful long-term support – nine or ten months for me so far.
Day by day: you sound positive, and sounds like you have a good friend to talk to. The pangs are understandable, as you have lost an interaction that was there; but eventually you’ll feel less of the loss and more of the freedom you’ve gained. Hope you continue to do well with NC.
Lavender,
Good for you!!!!!!!
Ditto. Everyone is here for you.
Colororange, I too have wondered if i was sending the wrong signal to off the wall shady guys… But i read somewhere that the problem doesnt lie in us attracting the wrong guys its accepting the wrong guys.
I’m 52 and I know guys who have been taken to the cleaners in a big way by their ex-wives and yet they still want a long term relationship.
You just can’t make blanket assumptions about any group anymore.
I’ve also dated guys my age (and older, like in their 60s) who claim to only have met post menopausal women without libidos and who don’t want to have sex, or don’t want to have it that often. Then they meet me with my off-the-chart sex drive and realize they can’t make assumptions about that either.
Just be crystal clear about what you want. Don’t assume anything – nothing. Don’t assume that fidelity is part of the deal. TALK ABOUT MONOGAMY. Find out where you stand. Don’t assume monogamy is part of any dating or marriage package. If you don’t discuss monogamy and then find out they’ve cheated on you, you don’t have a leg to stand on – sorry. Because they can come back with “We never discussed it!” Frankly, they’d be right. Why would you expect him to hold to something that was never brought up? That’s like crossing an “imaginary” boundary. It’s a boundary that exists only in your mind and not in reality.
But if they cheat on you after you’ve had an honest open discussion about the importance of monogamy, then, well, I guess you really are with a jerk. But at least you’ll know they crossed your boundary.
Hi Eva
I can agree with the ‘we didn’t discuss it part’ but not with the ‘they’d be right’. That’s just semantics; po-ta-to..po-tah-t. We don’t go in a store and shoplift because the shop owner did not tell us we couldn’t. IMO relationship = monogamy= no cheating. To suggest it doesn’t apply to a marriage unless it’s spelled out is really not an acceptable excuse on the part of either partner/cheater.
But in the end I do agree..discuss everything. I’ll know for next time.
I just ended a year long psuedo relationship, in which i gave my heart and soul to someone with completely conflicting attributes and behaviours, what
kept me holding on was my own need to help at the cost of my own sanity, fear of being alone, fear of facing yet another failed attempt at a reciprocal relationship – that is “making him love me”, which are of course my childhood baggage. But, above all, I believe that he has a developmental issue which expresses itself primarily in terms of his emotions, and capability for empathy, understanding the consquences of his actions and such – something like Aspergers, I saw similar patterns in his father, and I felt that he needed help, and i could help him.
In the end, he was avoiding his issues by sleeping around with women as well as me although everyone around him thought we were basically in a relationship – yes all the hallmarks.
But the kicker is he can’t fully engage with why i have finally left, he understands it in a way, but can’t engage with the emotional aspect – to say this is painful doesn’t quite capture it.
“Until you have enough facts and consistent evidential experience of what you believe to be true about someone, you’re in no position to be making assumptions and predictions about your relationship or them. Ultimately, none of the things you’re assuming or valuing in someone make a blind bit of difference unless you experience them”
For me, the assumptions are working in another way – The pendulum has shifted to the opposite end and I’m now catching myself making grand assumptions about men and how they are all cheaters and manipulators in one way or another. I’m surrounded by stories of friends and other women who have encountered or dated (or even married!) seemingly nice, normal men only to find out they’ve been cheating in one way or another.
As I’m making my way through the stages of self-healing, my self-esteem has come to a good level but I’ve now found myself on the defensive because of these assumptions. The worst part is knowing that I’m assuming but I can’t get it out of my head – the nicest gesture or complement by a man is now being interpreted as a sneaky manipulative move. If there’s a way around this I’d like to know!! Clearly assumptions can keep you in horrible relationships or keep you away from potentially good ones.
The definition of assumption is essentially something that is accepted as true – without proof.
The whole question of what amounts to proof can be either discussed as a scientific/mathematical thing or a philosophical debate.
Thats where your advice to check really comes into its own. Even if something looks like proof, it may not necessarily be so and so checking in with our partner is a prudent thing to do.
Ask; listen; check. Rinse and repeat!
Rosemary
http:compatibilityandlove.com
@ Lavender
I’m really happy to hear that you sound in a much better place. Keep up with nc. It’s normal to miss things, people, even if they’re not good for you. But resisting, strengthening your willpower, ( literally will and power) will build your momentum and confidence. Stay away from that nasty douche he’s not going to morph into anything good in your absence. If you crack he will bring you down. It’s not worth it. Maybe fill your spare time with positive things that lift you up.
@ Grace,
well said, yet again!
To me, there is nothing sadder than loving an emotionally ill person. When I was in my 40’s I met a man who instantly felt like a brother. Little did I know …
It took me almost eight years to figure out he was my Mom in a man’s body. I realized his lack of emotional awareness meant I had to stay away from him. I will always keep hope alive that he will be granted the gift of self awareness and the emotional health that comes from working with that, but now I am not affected by the outcome.
Leaving him behind left a scar, but that is how it had to be. Knowing him opened a childhood wound that was never quite healed and I was bleeding to death by staying and thinking he wanted /was able to work to be well. Leaving him was the beginning of truly healing the childhood wound of living with my mentally ill Mom that I could not help.
Thing is, I have come to see that pain of experiences like this as part of a life fully lived. Nobody ever said that a life that includes being deeply and honestly in touch with our emotions is easy.
Thanks to this site I also learned to look at my part in all the pain I brought on myself by denying the reality of the mismatch of his words and actions, continuing to engage in a codependent relationship, and hoping that he would be different. I know I will never compromise my health and happiness like that again.
Still, it is sad to leave someone troubled behind. I know it sounds trite but that pain you feel means you have a heart. Wanting to be here means you have wisdom. These are truly great qualities to have and with them we continue on our journey knowing we are doing our best.
That was beautiful StraightandTall. I feel everything you wrote and it made me cry..but just a little!! ha ha. Hugs to you
Bri *” i deserve better*, yes you do. I feel it takes a certain amount of humility in facing reality to get to the point of feeling like we deserve better and realising that the r/s isn’t working. Its easy to go on denying the reality of the situation.
After many mos., years really of introspection and working on myself and coming to this site; I think I can sum up how I got into this mess: That saying ‘been down so long..it looked like up.’
IMHO I think I see a pattern that has us falling prey to narcissits due to whatever we lacked in familial love & support that made us susceptable to them? I may never have all the answers, and that will have to be ok. The important thing is I realize why I did what I did and I hope to never be that victim again.
This is a great article, Nat, you’re on fire!!
We must keep our feet firmly set in reality at all times so we don’t build sand castles in the sky and get lead up the garden path. You know,i think being involved with eums, we end up living on a promise in a way.
It reminds me of being taken to the top of a mountain to see a gorgeous view on the other side of the mountain. The guide has said there’s a gorgeous view from the top of the mountain.
The walk is all up hill so it takes effort to get to the top. All during the walk up, you’re filled with great expectations of the view and you feel excited and exhilarated. The guide is talking about the view on the other side of the mountain and he’s building it up bigtime! You just can’t wait to get to the top. You’re so exhilarated that you forget to look around you much, but you notice the scenery isn’t that spectacular along the mountainside, but you think it must be better on the other side, like he said. You set aside your doubt cos you think to yourself, surely he wouldn’t have told me there was such a great view and put me to all this effort for nothing, would he?
When you get to the top, the view on the other side is nothing spectacular, in fact its a very ordinary view. You stand up there, dumbfounded. You don’t know what to say. He is still saying the view is great!!
Walking down the mountain, your heart is in your boots, you feel like you’ve been taken for a fool and you’re close to tears. You bite your tongue and say nothing and think to yourself – next time, i’ll do some research myself and i won’t put all my faith in what the guide says. Just cos he “looked” like a guide and spoke like a guide doesn’t mean he knows jack about what he’s talking about. He was full of hot air – he had no substance and didn’t live in reality.
Audrey, that is an excellent analogy!! Totally related!! Or take this one step further, we never even ASK what the view is like on the other side, we just *assume* it is going to be worth the climb so we just keep going.
Thanks for the image!
Magnolia, you said it exactly “it’s not easy at first – like you say, once you get boundaries doesn’t mean you immediately stop picking the kind of people you used to before you got them.” And you are right, many people tell me to give him a break, he’s a nice guy really, don’t be so hard on him. Coming here this blog is like hearing the voice of reason and reminds me of my own power when I start to forget.
Grace, I have cut out many of those kinds of people in my life, including people I called good friends at one point. The ugly realization is that now I have barely anyone left. At work, there are a few who are AC’s but I try to avoid them. I need to work on seeing the truth about people sooner and trust my own intuition about people. It’s all that conditioning we get as young girls to be a nice girl and don’t be sassy, or the dreaded….”you’re opinionated” like its a flaw.
I learned a lesson in all of this. Thanks for your “voices.”
Making assumptions in relationships is such a potentially lethal thing to do and something that should be avoided at all costs I have learnt … the hard way. The boyfriend I had before my last was a loner from an extremely dysfunctional background who was hopelessly addicted to several psychiatric drugs. I became madly infatuated with him because he was incredibly intellegent, witty .. so absolutely stimulating .. I felt he deserved a break so I naively vowed to help him overcome his demons. Inevitably the relationship soured. He refused to give up the drugs.. his moodswings were out of control. He was extremely abusive verbally and deceitful .. thats the thing about addicts.. they are formidable liars they have to be to pursue their ultimate passion.. I ended the relationship anyhow completely broken and vowed never to end up with someone like him again. So the next time I went for the opposite. This guy was popular from a decent family.. well raised it appeared.. good looking. Smart. Surely this guy would be in no way like the last. How wrong was I ? He turned out to be a controlling, manipulative, borderline sexual deviant. It doesn’t really matter what they seem like you have to do further investigation before you invest your heart and decide to trust. Appearances can be (and are more often than not) extremely deceiving.
Not all people that get married are committed – some are still ‘dating’…
I agree to this. I have a friend – more like acquaintance or he’s closer to stranger. We met six years ago and he got married two to three years ago. He lies about his status and he continuously date other women.
I pity his wife. He claims he got her pregnant before getting married. Call that *******.
Actions speak louder than words – the ones in your mind AND the ones that leave your mouth when you’re too busy explaining & rationalizing & pontificating to pay attention to what’s REALLY going on.
OldEnough ; yes not asking the right questions at the start is a pitfall. I should have made some enquiries of my own about that mountain!!! take care.
I loved this post and all the comments around this subject as I as like most of us always see the Dazzle and not the Tarnish. I have for some bizarre reason attracted people who feed me, cook for me, take me here to eat, take me there to eat…you get the picture. As a Starry Eyed twenty year old girl this was the height of Romance, for a World Weary forty year old this amounts to nothing more than being fed. My last EUM of 4 years ( actually it consisted of around thirty mini relationships of 2-3 months with 3-4 months of NC then Rinse and Repeat…) prided himself on taking me out to eat and taking me food shopping and preparing food for me. Now I live in a small town and I can tell you eating at the same places off of the the same menus, eating the same food gets pretty tedious and in the end it came apparent to me that that this guy had nothing to more offer me other than food. But the sad fact of the matter really was this I was with a guy who was trying to get his needs met by (wrongly) trying to meet my needs. Sadder still was after he’d filled me up with the specials from the local pub and a couple of big glasses of Merlot and we went back to his, he expected me to be so grateful that I would now perform like Jenna Jameson. In truth most of the time I was so full I would throw on my PJ’s and settle down for the night…this led to much huffing in the dark from the other side of the bed…and random excuses from him the next day as to why he couldn’t spend the Sunday with me, you know the stuff, he had his Step 4 Work to complete, he had to visit Sponsor ( I forgot to mention he’s a recovering Addict!) visit his dad. Not realising that if he had actually put some decent effort in on a Sunday he may have hit Bingo. But what this Dazzle and Sparkle was in truth was a form of control and it avoided true honesty and intimacy on his part. But moving on… I knew I had hit rock bottom though after a quick drink with a mate in a local pub led me to getting talking to some chump who worked with the above feeder. He bought me half a lager and after said drink was completed and I was putting on my jacket to go, he drained his pint, looked me squarely in the eye and stated that…he thought it was about time I took him home to bed…
nicola
how bizarre. some men have got it in their heads that women love to be taken out to eat, and for that they can expect sexual favours. I do love being taken out to eat actually, but i also love theatre, film, puppet shows, circus, dance, music, kites, the beach, walking, parties, yoga. sadly, the ex just wanted a booty call in the end.
maybe it’s worth suggesting other activities (not to these numpties though).Ifind women (or maybe it’s just me) end up doing the things that the MAN likes (even if he’s a good bloke who isn’t particularly overbearing). most good blokes don’t want that. As i overheard my brother say to his wife “don’t say you don’t mind. tell me which you prefer”.
anyway, dragging this back on topic (kind of), don’t assume that men want a yes (or an “i don’t mind”) woman. And don’t assume that you don’t mind. You probably do.
As always, you crack me up! Especially “but i also love theatre, film, puppet shows, circus, ..” As I said to one date several years back ‘It’s just dinner. The most I owe you is a thank you, not a shag’ That was obviously the last time I saw him.
The thing is even when we did other stuff and we did go out and about ( I did the driving coz he cant…he has a push bike!…snort) he would still act like his throat had been cut if I didnt put out. See assumptions cause alot of confusion, he assumed that if he took me out he would get a shag, I assumed he was taking me out because he wanted me to have fun. He would argue the toss…if he could type…
So taking assumptions a little further if I get taken out for a meal…again, god forbid…I will assume he likes to eat out so I will take him out… lets see how long these AC hang about then.
Ps I love a good puppet show myself xx