One of the fears people considering improving their self-esteem and boundaries struggle with is about being “selfish”. They’re so not used to taking care of their own needs, expectations, desires, feelings and opinions (rather than expecting others to do so), and they worry that others won’t manage or will feel neglected.
Taking responsibility for our own feelings and behaviour puts us on equal footing with others. So ironically, this fear we have of being “selfish” is basically a fear of being equal. It’s not wanting to recognise that everyone has their own life to lead and also has their own needs, desires, expectations, feelings, opinions, motivations, experiences and purpose.
When we don’t put ourselves on equal footing, we come from a place of inadequacy and dependency. We’re essentially reliant on people to “do the right thing”, take care of us as a result of us putting everyone ahead of ourselves, and also live up to our ideals.
When we worry about being selfish, we also have to acknowledge that on some level, we think that people who consider their own values and boundaries are selfish. We believe that if they don’t want to be and do as we would like, that they’re selfish. Because we’re willing to extend ourselves to such a degree that we lose and forget ourselves, we can feel perplexed and, in fact, shortchanged, by people not wanting to do the same. We effectively want them to pay the debt created by us not having our own back.
Selfishness is about lack of consideration for others. It has nothing to do with healthy self-esteem and healthy boundaries.
It would be fair to say that the people pleasers of this world are too considerate because they over-feel. They worry excessively about and, in turn, make themselves responsible for other people’s feelings and behaviour. They don’t honour the separateness that we all need in order to retain a sense of self and have healthy boundaries. People pleasing, then, is an attempt to influence and control other people’s feelings and behaviour.
Of course, taking on this unnecessary responsibility means that when people pleasers feel bad, they conflate improving their own feelings with others amending their behaviour. When these people don’t, they feel shortchanged because, on some level, they’re thinking, What? After everything, I’ve been and done for you, and you won’t just do this thing that will take away my pain? And then they feel that they haven’t been “pleasing enough”, which just reinforces the sense of inadequacy.
People pleasing is not a selfless pursuit; it’s a transactional one with an underlying expectation about what we will receive in return.
Considerateness, like compassion, is a full circle kinda thing. You can consider others and consider you too. You can care about yourself as well as care for others. It’s not mutually exclusive. However, if you focus purely on considering others, not only will it result in you doing things for the wrong reasons, but you’ll end up filing for emotional bankruptcy.
When we have healthy self-esteem, we are coming from a place of love, care, trust, and respect.
And actually, when we come from that place, healthy self-esteem and better relationships are a by-product. When we don’t, we are operating from a place of self-interest. We either make everything about us because we see everything in relation to our worth and assume too much power over others, or where we just don’t give a eff and see it as our right to try to aggressively or passive-aggressively force people to do what we want by hook or by crook.
- When we base our expectations or entitlement about what we feel others should do on what we feel that we’ve been and done, there is an element of selfishness in there.
- If we’re in a relationship, romantic or otherwise, and we only or mainly consider our own feelings, opinions, needs, etc., and expect things to be done our way and on our terms, that’s selfishness.
- If we expect people to change because we feel that who they are is “wrong”, this has an element of selfishness. Our expectations are based on our ideals around an imagined person, not who they actually are. We’re not respecting the truth of who they are.
- If we operate as if only our boundaries matter, this is selfishness. Healthy boundaries respect us and others.
- If we focus on what we need, want, or expect without thought for the consequences on others, that is selfish.
Every human has their selfish moments, but don’t conflate self-esteem and healthy boundaries with selfishness.
When you have healthy self-esteem and boundaries, you can co-exist with people. When you try to rule others in order to get what you want etc, that is selfishness.
If you have negative associations with self-care, as in literally, taking care of you in the day-to-day of your journey that is life, it’s important to note that improving self-esteem and having healthy boundaries is not a selfish pursuit. It’s not about navel-gazing or being too caught up in yourself, and it’s not purely for your benefit.
Yes, you will feel better as a result of self-care but so will the people you engage with. Why? Because you’re no longer crossing their boundaries and looking for them to be and do things to fill you up. You’re not stuck in re-runs of old patterns trying to make them play roles to right the wrongs of the past.
You will know exactly what I mean if, like me, you’ve bumbled around in various relationships and situations repeating a pattern and looking for these people to ‘fix’ things from your childhood.
Don’t get things twisted. There are plenty of people out there who do things for others and also take care of themselves.
It’s not because they deprioritise their needs, desires, expectations, feelings and opinions, though. Instead, they remember that they have to take care of themselves and know their limits so that they can do what they set out to do. They also operate from an authentic and so boundaried place. This way they don’t end up feeling owed due to underlying expectations about reward and fixed ideas about how others ‘should’ behave. They are and do stuff because they have it ‘give’, not because they hope that it will create a tipping point. It’s also the age-old wisdom of knowing that in an emergency situation, you put on your lifejacket or your oxygen mask before you help others.
How the hell are you going to help somebody if you’re compromising and even endangering you?
By recognising your duty to consider you and as a result, putting you on equal footing, you also learn that you can do so without bulldozing and decimating everything and everyone in the vicinity. Boundaries and knowing yourself are not about trying to rule others; they’re about knowing and living your own line.
‘Putting you first’ doesn’t mean that you are selfish. It means that you recognise that you cannot ignore or deprioritise you and expect to have a self left.
You cannot enjoy healthy relationships with others or have anything left for you if you’re drained or broken down. Before you write off your endeavours to improve the way you treat and regard you as “selfish”, remember that if you don’t learn how to treat you with love, care, trust, and respect, you will find that even when others try to put you on equal footing, you will always be coming from a less than position. You must be for yourself before you can be for another.
Your thoughts?
Are you ready to stop silencing and hiding yourself in an attempt to “please” or protect yourself from others? My new book, The Joy of Saying No: A Simple Plan to Stop People Pleasing, Reclaim Boundaries, and Say Yes to the Life You Want (HarperCollins/Harper Horizon), is out now.
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This is so important, and pretty much makes the foundation for any healthy relationship. It reminds me of a saying I heard, probably from Oprah, where you fill your own cup first, then use the overflow to help others. Otherwise, your helpfulness to others will come with resentment, feeling owed something in return, etc.
I used to operate that way. I would put everyone’s feelings ahead of my own. I think this stems from a role of peacekeeper in my family. I would give and give, and then most of the time the people receiving would disappear when they were done with me, and I’d be left wondering why I didn’t get my share of support/love/attention in return. It made me feel useless and less than. I always knew this was wrong, but it was only a year ago I started to change my behavior to end this dynamic. Since then I’ve started to check in with myself first, and then with what others need. If what I feel disagrees with what others need from me, I respectfully tell them so. In some cases though I’ve had to just cut out people from my life because the whole relationship existed based on this dynamic. I still have my times where I go back into the old pattern, but I try to catch myself and correct course asap.
Checking in with myself to see how I feel about things has helped me a great deal in increasing my self love, and it does make it easier for me to accept when others say no or do their own thing. It probably seems so obvious to someone who has never been in that dynamic, but it’s refreshing to realize everyone is their own person, and so are you! You have every right to your own feelings, opinions, etc. as the next person. By being a best friend to me first, I can be a great friend to others.
“By recognising your duty to consider you and as a result, putting you on equal footing, you also learn that you can do so without bulldozing and decimating everything and everyone in the vicinity. Boundaries and knowing yourself are not about trying to rule others; they’re about knowing and living your own line.”
This paragraph stood out for me. I wavered and talked and talked instead of taking immediate clear action in a messed up situation. I drug things out longer than I needed when I knew all along what I had to do. Instead, I avoided. I stalled. But the top line info is that repeatedly reminding someone what it looks like to be a decent person is not my job.
I imagine I have wings and as I start to soar higher and higher into the sky, the person who was causing me pain by being careless and deceitful got smaller and smaller until they disappeared. Visualizing this is helping me let it go. I made an appointment this week to see a counselor to help sort out why I’m still have trouble acting in my own best interest. I’ve done a ton of work on myself but after my brief time dating again, I see more clearly the triggers I have to work on. Thank you Natalie for another brilliant post.
Thanks for this!
“You must be for yourself before you can be for another.”
I am taking responsibility for this. I am taking six months to myself to get therapy and recover from my patterns before I think about dating again.
🙂
Selkie- I like what you said about having wings and soaring higher and higher while the person who caused pain gets smaller and smaller. Yes, this is what’s happening with me too. As I’m learning to care for myself (baby steps), my eyes are opening to the smallness of certain people and I’m very sad about it in a way. I think this sadness is compassion for myself, compassion for trying so hard without knowing I was unconsciously surrounding myself with deceitful people. It’s also a scary realization that I was out there swimming with sharks without protection (self-love) while thinking I was protected.
Rosie,
“I think this sadness is compassion for myself, compassion for trying so hard without knowing I was unconsciously surrounding myself with deceitful people. It’s also a scary realization that I was out there swimming with sharks without protection (self-love) while thinking I was protected.”
Me too. I am a little depressed these days. I believed in someone one who utterly disappointed me. It just hurts when people treat you with disregard and disrespect. Its hard to gather hope after repeated bad outcomes. I know I am the common denominator in this but still, why so many rotten people out there? It scares me.
Selkie, I feel that too. It’s so discouraging to know that there are so many people out there that treat people so poorly and think nothing of it.
Selkie and Veracity; I used to be always meeting mean girls. And feeling like i was ‘helping’ people and getting nothing in return. The thing is – those people werent right for me, didn’t have the same values. A lot of those I was helping at work were using me, they were lazy and not motivated while I was and am very into my work, and I didn’t need them for anything – we werent too friendly, and I clearly was and thought myself to be already ahead of them in work and didn’t need their help. So they resented my help while needing it. ANd I provided help while not needing anything back and resenting being used.
Nowadays the people I help are my colleagues that I really trust, I value their opinion, we have a real give and take of mutual advice etc. We share the same values of being really into our work and caring about how well we do. And we are NOT using each other at all. And I find much fewer mean girls in my life – because I ignore mean girls and make sure not to get hooked.
I guess I’m saying – I find that there are lots of good people in the world. And having healthy boundaries is a way to find them. People will still disappoint. The EUM from last year was a total disappointment to me – BUT … I knew it. I knew it from day 1 probably. And every day after that brought that knowledge up again and again. So really I have to take responsibility for that repeated disappointment.
Good people are out there. Perhaps think of who in your life is good and spend more time with them so that you get used to what it feels like to be treated well. Then it will be harder for people to repeatedly disappoint you because after the first or second time, you’ll say ‘enough!’ and thats that.
Sometimes when I had invites to go hang out with mean girl type people (and I include mean men in this as well!), I would think to myself, boy, I’d be happier at home with the Simpsons … and I’d just avoid. That tells you something – if staying home with TV would make you happier, just do it. Dont think people are disappointing. Instead think ‘exposing myself to disappointing people isn’t good for me, I need to avoid this’.
Suki, Yes, I relate to everything you are saying. I’ve always attracted mean girls too. I realize now that my mom and sister(s) were/are mean girls. That’s really good advice to ignore them. There are a few at my new workplace and I see the situation you spelled out very clearly. They need me and I don’t need them. They are continually testing my boundaries and being friendly when they need something then ignoring me when they don’t.
I’m taking my time to see who people are and am responding accordingly and keeping firm boundaries even though it often feels as though I’m being mean/unreasonable. I’m also doing as much of it as I can in writing so I have that to fall back on.
Like you, I now don’t do social things with people I don’t feel comfortable with. I’d rather do something that brings peace and pleasure to my life.
Learning to have my own back even though it often feels *wrong*, like I’m being mean or unreasonable.
There’s a new song that came out that describes users very well. It’s called Fooled You Twice.
http://thomasdarcymusic.com/media/
These lines in that song keep running around my head and help me to remember to have my own back or I will suffer the consequences.
Would you have my back if I don’t have yours?
Stick with me and you’ll get burned.
Yes and mean girls smell blood. The worse you feel, the more you attract them and its a spiral. When you get your power back, thats it, no more mean girls. And amazing powerful smart people will find you and you’ll find them – I believe this. I dont know yet how this converts into finding a romantic relationship, but I know how it converts into finding and keeping male and female friends.
And its important to see that we are responsible in some of these cases; we continued engaging with people that we didn’t like, we expected them to change, we expected to be somehow ‘rewarded’ for how ‘nice’ we are and so on (the whole people pleasing).
We dont have to be nice all the time. We have to realize there is a time and place for that, with people that reciprocate and are kind. And identifying who’s worth it is what life is about. And the only way we can find that out is over time. Everything happens over time. Right now all my really close friends, are at least 10 years of friendship – 10 years!! No one in my inner circle is less than that. Thats what it takes to build something real, to prove how much you care about the other person.
And imagine this with men – we often fall in love after 2 days of very fake social connection (bars, movies, drinking, hormones going crazy). We think a successful marriage is 10 years – whereas thats just the beginning of a good friendship.
I really think most of what we talk about here boils down to; learn to know what you feel, and act accordingly while maintaining your dignity, being authentic, and not crapping on others. And — its hard to do, its a lifelong process with challenges thrown at you every day. Its also a practice, you get better at it. And other people teach you how too – we’re not the only ‘good’ people in the world. I’ve learnt in the last 2-3 years how to ask for and accept advice. I ask for advice on everything, and I take it. So those that give me advice know that I’m serious, I’m not sucking up their time. And the same with them – i give advice, and they actually take it showing me that they value what I say. Wow. its powerful… it takes guts to realize that others often see your situation better than you do. And this is one of the things one can get from BR – funny how help from others gives us power. Take your power back – if you have to be single which many of us are, and that we feel sad about it, then you are going to be the goddamn best single person you could ever have imagined. I dont need a relationship to feel good about myself, I dont need validation. I validate myself. Mean girls dont hook me because I smell your insecurity for a mile, and I’m outta here!
Suki, every single word is woah! You rock!
Hello girls,
I have been reading Nathalie’s posts for years and have read all her books, but have never actually commented.
First of all, may I just thank her and you for sharing all your precious experiences for the benefit of others. This truly is a place of healing.
In all the years I’ve been reading this forum I think Rosie’s phrase, is what it all boils down to for me, the phrase is: …It’s also a scary realization that I was out there swimming with sharks without protection (self-love) while thinking I was protected…
This is absolutely what has been going on with me for the past 46 years. This phrase is so powerful for me that I have had a sudden realization which is nothing new to most of you, but I have finally got it ..
Self love and self esteem are the answer to all our problems with these abusers.
When a person first approaches us what we need to seek is the quality of the person, his capability to love us deeply, sustain us, support us, need us and dedicate time to us as well as his intentions towards us. It’s not how much they are attracted to us, it’s not how much we are attracted to them, it’s not not how much they pursue us, it’s not their job, it’s not their bank account, not their social status. All these things do not determine the quality of a person and his ability to love deeply. We are reeled in by these people for the wrong reasons and please, let’s not kid ourselves we dont know who they are from the word go. Our intuition ALWAYS kicks in, but we think we know better. Well we don’t, because intuition defies rationality, we can’t overrule intuition with a rational thought. Intuition doesn’t understand the smooth speaking, well dressed, often high cultured, high sexed person or simply aloof person we have in front of us. It just recognizes the predator. It is one of our most precious functions. It a fight or flight reaction and our stomachs always say flight.
Usually, however, our self esteem is so low and our need for love and intimacy is so great we are grateful that someone is taking notice of us at all and willing to overlook what our bodies are telling us. We don’t see the caring, loving, intelligent, talented, multitasking women we are and how these people can damage our lives, our health and our spirits with their selfishness.
Gradually with time our brains acknowledge that their words don’t match their actions, but we think we deserve no better and are so highly invested that it is difficult to retreat. Why don’t we love ourselves to the point that we put ourselves in dangerous situations? There is the work to be done…
It’s WHO the person is that approaches you that is important, their core values and their intentions with regards to you and the relationship. Never be afraid of asking and always take the time to get to know someone. If they mean well their actions will be consistent with the term love. Love is an all encompassing word. It is a feeling which promotes an action and at a certain point when the initial feeling has worn off it becomes a decision. Its presence or absence also determines our physical wellbeing. It encompasses both the emotional, rational and physical aspects of our person. It is never ambiguous. And it never involves game playing.
May I just say one more thing, venting on an abusive relationship is part of our healing process. This site is a precious place where we can find solace, support and good counselling with people that have gone through or are going through the pain of heartbreak. However, there is a time of letting go of the hurt and moving on. We cannot spend this short life mopping over some emotionally stunted moron that doesn’t know his arse from his elbow and is loosing out on the only part of life that brings meaning: YOU! These people are time wasters and the more you think of them the more your are missing out on your life. Feel sad for these people once the anger and frustration have past and live your life to the fullest knowing that they will never feel true happiness ( who cares!!) and what’s more important they will never bring YOU happiness or add in any positive way to your life.
I, on the other hand, have after one year of a relationshit with a full blown narcissist (usual patterns strong initial interest, now neglectful, selfish and I won’t go on because I am already over it) am trying to pluck up the courage to end it. (Have tried several times but always been reeled back in again and same behaviour). However this evening have resolved to close. It takes courage when you still love someone, but we have to realize that we love our own projections of the person, not the actual person, because the actual person means neither us nor the relationship any good otherwise we wouldn’t be in this situation in the first place.
I am strong and I am beautiful and I can do this! Let’s hear a cheer for the girls, ladies!!! And please say a little prayer for me, God knows I need it..
Eli,
Sending you prayers wherever you are. I hope you find your strength and say goodbye to the person who’s hurting you. Yes, you are strong and beautiful, we all are. I agree with all you say above. And yes, truly letting go means eventually letting go of the story we tell. It’s history, that should become and live in the past. We anchor ourselves to it sometimes because without it, it feels empty after a break up or a life trauma. Finding purpose after your world suddenly feels empty and your reality is undone is a hard slow process, for me anyway. Perspective does come with time. Good Luck Sweetie.
“It’s WHO the person is that approaches you that is important, their core values and their intentions with regards to you and the relationship.”
Sometimes a shark shows up disguised as a dolphin.
Hope you’re sticking to your resolve.
Eli
Sending you many prayers, you can do this.
You are so right when you say these people we get involved with are time wasters and the signs, red flags are always there right from the start and we ignore them to our own cost down the track.
I’ve had too many ‘if only I had listened to my gut and dumped the AC I was involved with when I saw the glaring red flags’ moments but I’m past those now.
I can live with the mistakes I made and I’ve learned some valuable lessons.
Care for me first and always.
Live in the present, no thinking what would be if only he/she was …. insert your own dream here.
Stop people pleasing, you absolutely matter.
You can’t change people, don’t even try. If you don’t like what you see, hear or what they are doing leave them alone and walk away.
I did it, I walked away from a bad situation and I’m still standing. It was so empowering.
Just to give an update. I left him. Not when I said I would, but four days ago. Unfortunately a nasty break. I will never be in touch with him again, although I still love him.
Girls what we need to go for here are the dolphins as ‘Say Something’ notes. The only way to find out if he’s a dolphin or a shark is to get to know the person before committing. There is no short cut. Some of us get lucky because we dive into something and it turns out the guy was worth his salt after all. This is, however, not always the case. We know the red flags, we know when it is time to get out.
I am taking three weeks holiday now doing things I really like. I have no illusion however that the next few weeks are going to be tough and full of grieving, however I need to get it out of my system and fast.
Wish me luck and I hope you all have a joyful summer and let’s think as little as possible about these jerks!
Well, this certainly is tough love about not deceiving ourselves into thinking we are giving when it is about what we want when we want it no matter what!
I’d been OK with interpersonal relationships for the past 22 years. Then I had an experience with music and didn’t realize my reaction stemmed from my father and how he treated me. There is a whole chunk of my life that I must have kept separate. It only got uncovered when I emotionally responded to music again and it’s associated person.
Thanks to Natalie and her wise counsel. Now it’s like if I want to be a whole person I have to address this issue. I remember in the past, recent past even when I thought of my father I drew a blank.
So, I have worked on father abandonment, trust in the universe, father and music etc. Now I have to work on love, care, respect and integrity to myself. I want to do this and still have music in my life and even want to play and sing again. I’m still reeling from this narcisist activity and trying to recognise that I am a worthy person. I want to move on from this.
After reading up on how and why I’ve been the fallback girl (I basically let a guy use me for over a year) I decided the best thing to do was to stay completely single for the rest of the year and try to get to bottom of my issues. I thought it was going well and slowly I was getting some self esteem back and respect for myself.
I’ve recently moved to a new area and making lots of new friends. This has involved partying a fair bit and for the last 3 months we’ve tended to end up in the same club where there happens to be a very attractive manager.
Anyway in my tipsy states I’ve often told him he’s attractive and been quite touchy feely with him. He tended to just laugh it off (I expect he gets the same a lot) which I took as him not being interested in me for whatever reason…
Then last weekend we were finally in a position where it was quiet to actually talk. He asked me questions and got me a drink etc. I’d say we flirted. He told me he was single and I then questioned that he’s never once reacted to my flirting previously. His response was that it’s because he’s at work so he can’t really engage properly. We then discussed age as I pointed out he was a bit younger than me and he went…4 years is no big deal don’t be silly. I then asked him outright whether he was interested…he said yes you’re very pretty. In hindsight he could hardly have turned around and said no could he without sounding mean! (Cringing at my drunken interrogation techniques)
Anyway for the rest of the night we flirted a bit when I walked by him.
As I went to leave the club I went and told him I was going home and hoped he had a good remaining shift. He then took my number and said he’d text….third day and I’ve heard nothing.
And now I’m feeling really silly and insecure. Thinking things like he clearly doesn’t fancy me, maybe he just took my number to be nice because I flirt with him so often. Like if he actually liked me he’d have text right?
Anyway point of the post…I’m clearly nowhere near being healed or developing any self esteem. It’s actually really bothered me and now I have no idea how I’m actually going to get better with this stuff.
Any advice?
@Jen, just because someone isn’t interested doesn’t mean you lack self-esteem. Men are expected to make the first move with us all of the time — imagine what they go through. So you gave it a shot with someone you found attractive and he didn’t text you, doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you. You should be proud of your bravery and the fact that you let him know how you felt. I would say in the future that if you still want to pursue it ask him if he’d like to get together when neither one of you has been drinking. I personally think nothing really healthy can come out of drunken flirting — you have to get to know him sober and see if he’s anything even worth pursuing. However, you gave him your number, he didn’t respond, so I’d personally just let it go at this point.
Jen
You could try staying totally sober next time and see what happens then.
Being a bar manager he’s more than used to people who do dumb things when drinking. If he’s cute, ask yourself how many girls flirt with him every time he’s there. Have you ever been harassed by a guy who’s had a few drinks and thinks you’re up for ‘something’, it’s just the drink talking most of the time.
I’ve had tipsy/drunk guys give me their phone numbers before today and all I did was throw their number away as soon as I could.
It’s his job to keep the customers happy and returning to the bar for another good night out with friends and you can’t blame him for doing his job, you’re chasing him and he’s not responding.
Back off and leave him alone, if he is interested he will call, if he’s not he won’t. Don’t sweat it, it’s not worth worrying about.
Jen – dianne’s comment is really good advice. My advice would be to question whether you are getting your joy and kicks in life purely from this man as a source or whether it is coming from yourself?
When it is coming from yourself as Diane says you will feel rightly brave and good about being honest with this person even if he doesn’t respond the same back and will brush it off easier after dealing with your feelings of being rejected.
If you are finding yourself being attached still to external validation from him – don’t beat yourself up – rightfully celebrate knowing/finding it out early in the relationship like before marriage and kids and mortgages etc… and then get up and do something purely for yourself that will make you feel good – and is not reliant on this person or others – also write a list of what you are looking for in a mate, now you have a better idea of what it doesn’t look like for you. Really think about the kind of man who makes you feel genuinely good for being yourself, not a man you feel you have to change for in order to be good enough to catch or who you feel insecure about after three days of him not ringing.
Focus on your life and let the universe sort itself out. All the best.
Jen, I would say; he might not fancy you which is why he isn’t texting. And you should go back to that bar and you should be non-flirty friendly with him. [if that bar is important to you, then this will get over any awkwardness].
NOW – if he actually gets back to you – I think you should decline. First, its possible he’s one of those guys that only does things on his terms. Since you made the move the whole power balance is off for him and he’s going to play this in some way. You dont need that. Second, lets assume he’s at least somewhat interested — BUT read what you have written, you’re clearly already hooked with this guy, that is, your general anxiety about yourself has found a home in this guy. So the odds are that you will spin all sorts of things out of this – plus he’s not the most stable of bfs is he? I mean he’ll be out every night at work, and you’ll keep wondering what he’s doing etc. He’s not the right bf for an overly anxious person. So thats my two cents. Dont engage. Be friendly. Keep it cool. [note also that keeping it cool will help you feel confident about yourself again. ANd it means that if he does reciprocate you have a ready way to say no or whatever feels right rather than immediately falling in with whatever plans he might come up with]. Be choosy. Be picky. Dont go for tepid. Guy takes number and doesnt call? Ha. Its over.
Well put, Suki.
Another interesting article covering an interesting topic!
I remember in some older post Natalie wrote about people in a happy relationship not giving each other 50% (as the ‘half + half makes whole’ theory suggests), but giving 100% and thus receiving 100% back from the relationship. Guess the same should ideally happen between parents, friends etc., meaning people helping each other while not expecting the other person to change into an imaginary ideal, pay them back, feel ashamed/guilty for not having paid back, become dependent on them etc.
I wonder if doing good to people and expecting nice treatment from them always means some degree of ‘people pleasing’ or seeking validation? Probably not, as helping each other is a natural way of things until one party starts taking advantage of the other (mentally, physically, financially etc.) If I expect good for good, that’s not because I have a ‘good deeds’ notebook with comparison charts in my pocket or judging whether it’s worth my time/effort to help this or that person. Sometimes there are cases when I will fill the other’s glass before filling my own, and that’s how I treat people I love and care about. Is this strange that I expect them to fill my glass too if I suddenly need it and cannot do this myself, or share their glass with me in times of grave need?
I understand the point of ‘I’ve done so much for you, and what have YOU done? Nothing!’, yet this has two sides as well. The other party may smile genuinely and tell you they’ve lived with their boundaries and doing what’s good for them and seemingly not overstepping your boundaries… while really not giving back much. At the same time they have the right to say ‘You know what you’ve stepped in, you should care about yourself and do it yourself, not expect anything from me’, and that’s true as nobody’s deeply responsible for how I feel. Two independent people with boundaries and self-esteem either caring for each other, or not caring and not even getting together, or getting together with somebody changing for the sake of it?..
Seems to me the line between ‘putting myself first’ and ‘selfish’ is still thin, because as soon as someone else’s interests clash with your own – boom, you’re either selfish, or breaking your/his/her boundaries, or quitting if you can. And sometimes things do get complicated…
Excellent article as usual, thanks!
BTW, that would be “navel gazing” 😀
Great, clear thinking on this topic. Thank you. I am beginning to feel that separateness – those boundaries starting to take hold. Whereas I used to worry what he thought and *that* was the basis for whether I’d “done/said the right thing,” now my own comfort with my choices is serving that measurement. He had a similar dynamic with me: if I was upset, he took it as evidence he was in adequate, done wrong, etc. So we were using each other as barometers when we should have been listening to our own selves – and toward the end, when we each retreated into meeting our own needs, the other would feel abandoned, ignored, etc. but this was absolutely what needed to happen. This is why I agree that No Contact isn’t just for you – it’s for them too. Like it or not, we’ve got to get back in touch with ourselves, get used to listening to ourselves and trusting ourselves before we can really engage on a deep level with another person.
I am feeling that separateness, that autonomy, that sweet calm that replaces the anxiousness of trying to control the uncontrollable (another person). Today is my 3 month anniversary of NC and I’m here to convey my appreciation. Experiencing the emotional results of healthy boundaries is such a reward for the pain/anguish that brought me here initially. What a resource this blog is – and all of YOU are. Thanks.
Great post Nat.
This jumped out at me – When you have healthy self-esteem and boundaries, you can co-exist with people. When you try to rule others in order to get what you want etc, that is selfishness.
This is so true. Having good healthy boundaries and self esteem means a big shift in attitude towards other people. I can accept that their ideas, point of view or character is theirs to own even if it is diametrically opposed to mine. It is possible to co-exist quite easily as long as they accept that you have differing ideas etc. If they can’t, there will always be aggravation between you.
Attitude is everything.
Michelle,
“Like it or not NC is for them too.” I agree. I instituted NC and realized I couldn’t be around him and ignore him. He would then come right up to my face and I had to respond politely for convention.
I then read somewhere that beause of their social immaturity or damage, whatever that they can’t ignore you when you are around. So I decided to withdraw from my social group completely as it was best for him and of course for me too.
I hear that, Mistea1. I remember missing him so much (and as Nat reminds us, Missing *what* exactly? Missing what wasn’t real/authentic in the first place?) and now, after 3 months of NC, no more longing/aching. I used to think that ache meant I really “loved” him but now I see it means I wasn’t getting what I wanted/deserved and I was “hungry” to get that out of him – thus, the ache.
Same here: when I run into him, he falls back into the same behaviors around me and I consciously redirect the conversation, set boundaries, etc. It’s amazing how I used to feel our similarities but now the differences are so loud and bright… It just reinforces to me how much I’ve changed and he has not. Stay strong and keep on that NC… it’s such a gift.
This is so very true, Nat. After 7 years spent in 2 miserable relationships, I took myself OFF the market and refused to date anyone until I figured out what I was doing wrong. I initiated NC for BOTH me (still haven’t broken it), and with your help, spent the next year working on ME! In retrospect this was the most selfish thing I’d ever done. I PUT MY HAPPINESS FIRST! After a year, met a nice guy, got married and have been pretty happy ever since. It’s weird, or maybe not so weird. I was thinking about how putting my happiness first has changed my entire way of life. I take good care of my self now (not just the external). I get regular check-ups, address health concerns, and yes, after fearing it for years (my dad died of cancer when I was a kid), I finally had my FIRST mammogram TODAY. Loving myself means making sure I am healthy and strong enough to live my life to the fullest…
Loving yourself and taking care of you, spiritually, emotionally, and physically isn’t “self-centered”….IT”S FREAKING HEALTHY 🙂
Thanks so much Nat…
PS. 5 year anniversary next week 🙂
RES,
Your story is just like mine! Once I started looking out for me, I never considered that being selfish. I didn’t hurt anybody or manipulate anybody inorder to do this. Once I started to take care of myself emotionally and physically, my life got better. I met a nice guy, who was normal and loving, got married and had a baby. All this while not hurting anyone in the process. This is difference between those who are selfish. They don’t understand that you can obtain happiness without leaving a casualities of bodies behind. Happy Anniversary!
RES and Stephanie – Your stories are inspiring. I’ve only recently started to really put my foot down to take care and love me first, and I already see changes in my life, especially with who I choose to keep in my life. I haven’t taken it to the level of dating yet, but I am staying open to meeting and talking to guys in person to see where that takes me for now. I really do hope that I can share a similar story some day too!
Love this post Nat! I, like so many women, have done my fair share of people pleasing. Only in the last few year have I become a. It more “selfish” and it’s been fabulous! It was triggered by meeting a girl who I befriended in grad school and I just came to adore. She was confident and funny and awesome, and really just didn’t give a f- about what most people wanted. She had her core group of people that she cared for and cared about their opinions, but for the most part, she just lived for herself. It was so refreshing! And you know what? She had/has the most fabulous life: awesome job, great man, fabulous home, great friends, etc etc. I think she just exudes joy from living herself and taking care of herself.
After I met this girl, I decided I wanted to live more like her. Of course I still wanted to be myself, but I worked on adopting a bit of we self love and attitude. In the past I will have thought it was too selfish, and some of the people in my life who were used to the old me don’t like the change at first. But after I got use to putting myself first and my close people got used to me being a bit more self-loving, all is well. And I am way happier! I do things I like all the time now a dam in a work field I love and similarly have great friends and a fun life I enjoy.
The next step is To work on carrying someone this self-love into my romantic relationships so I don’t get swallowed up by unhealthy situations and self-centred people. It is a challenge, but one that I think would make a big difference to having a healthy, happy relationship.
Leanne – I wish to be that woman too! It’s great to see inspiring people like that. I believe we can get there too, and then we can inspire others in the same way.
Thank you ladies!
Agreed, I do now appreciate that he probably was just being nice and like you say…keeping the customer happy.
It just concerned me that I thought I was getting better at not letting these kind of little rejections crush me…I know that not everyone will like me so I don’t get why I then turn it into something major and think ‘oh I must be really unattractive etc etc) because I appear so confident to everyone I give off a different impression to who I actually am.
Regardless I clearly have a long way to go in terms of improving my self esteem etc
I will leave the guy alone from now on and just be polite. Like you say…he would contact me if he wanted to.
Thanks again and I hope you are all on your way to self happiness!
I’ve had a few people pop up from my recent past. I found it interesting how things have changed over the last 15 months. I don’t hate them, but will not reconnect as friends. One disappeared after she got a boyfriend. They broke up and I’m not willing to participate in the drama and pity play and not trusting her motives about reappearing. The other I dated for a short while last Summer. He has moved back into town and sent me a hello and apology text. Eh, an apology deserves a phone call, not a lazy text. I’m glad he respected boundaries and didn’t hoover after the breakup, but he did say some very nasty things to me when I ended it. He’s an OK guy, but he has a lot of baggage and needs a nanny to take care of him and his messy life. My response to him was “thanks and see you around”. My boundaries are stronger now as I don’t want lopsided attachments with selfish people who prey on and victimize good people. Also, in the long run, users don’t respect you, because they know they’re using you and your taking the bait.
People pleasers *are* more likely to be perceived as selfish because we attach ourselves to people who expect more than a 50% effort from us.
The selfish people who engage in hurtful behavior never understand how their behavior affects other people. They just assume that because they are happy that the ends justify the means. No matter how many people tell them about being selfish, they DON’T GET IT!! Many times it’s because they don’t invest enough. They are in pursuit of their happiness and are not concerned with the casualities they leave behind.
They just float through life experimenting with people’s emotions and sucking them dry, then using their pursuite of happiness as an excuse for their crappy behavior. The more that person lacks empathy, the higher level of selfishness they will exhibit.
Another good one. I’m a mess today because I used boundaries with the ex-EUM. I’m sooo tired of being jerked around and lied to and played with. He feigns ignorance and innocence but he KNOWS what he’s doing and I’m DISGUSTED, mostly with myself. I told him yesterday to leave me alone, blocked him from Instagram (where I had been secretly enjoying that he still looked at my posts), that I’m sick of this and him and I need to get on with my life. It was INCREDIBLY hard to say those things (via text, mind you, because that’s the only way he’ll communicate with me since we broke up in February(!!)) and I feel selfish and sad and scared…scared of what? Losing a loser?? I came here right now for strength because he texted asking why I blocked him and acting pouty ‘I’m sorry, this is so hard,’ blah blah blah. No it’s NOT hard. If you wanted me, you’d know. And I’m so mad at myself for it taking this long to figure out. I’m tired of crying at work. I’m tired of waiting for his attention. I’ve blocked everything and need to work on loving myself instead of constantly allowing people who are not able to love me into my life because I secretly deep down believe I don’t deserve any better. This is so hard. I’m disappointed in myself.
Dee,
Sounds weird, but YAY! for you for getting angry. You are disgusted, you’re getting pissed, and that’s a step toward letting this shit situation go. You’re getting a glimpse of wanting more for yourself and feeling your inner strength, of knowing you don’t have to take this crap ambiguous kind of treatment. Only you are keeping you there but you’re taking a step in the right direction of removing yourself. Follow through and block his texting and calling, not just Instagram. It’s actually a huge relief once you do, because you know that maddening, ambiguous, insult your intelligence text is not gonna reach you. He may still be thinking he’s playing with you by sending it, but the joke’s on him. You never get it. His jerk off, negative vibes go out into space. He still thinks he’s getting to you, but you’ve just made him impotent and he has no idea. And, don’t be too hard to yourself. Be gentle with your mistakes and learn from them even if it’s a slow process.
I’ve quoted a song on here numerous times but to me it’s such a simple but powerful statement, I’ll quote it again if it helps anyone. It helped me as a gentle reminder that I did have a choice in the matter.
“Ain’t no talking to this man
He’s been trying to tell me so
Took a while to understand
The beauty of just letting go
Cause it would take an acrobat
I already tried all that
I’m gonna let him fly”
Let him Fly by Patty Griffin
Dee its this beating of yourself up that makes you susceptible to the assclowns in the first place. Stop it
– now go and think about what you can do instead?
– oh and give yourself a – good job! – every time you start to beat yourself up for asserting love for yourself.
Well done 🙂
Oona and Selkie,
Thank you. I needed the support and am going to post here when I want to reach out to him. I AM angry. I want to say, ‘HOW EFFING DARE YOU, WHO DO YOU EVEN THINK YOU ARE?!’ And I’m replaying his actions when we were together because you know what…I think he was stringing other women along the whole time, and now he’s probably seeing someone else and still stringing ME along. I know all of this is wasted energy and I am trying to remind myself that it isn’t even HIM I want, he doesn’t exist. It’s this addiction to what I WANTED him/us to be. It wasn’t ever real. He was a future faker the first 4-6 weeks and made me feel like the most important woman in the world and then it crashed. WTF. I am a woman who has been in a 10+ year marriage, and a 9 year relationship/engagement and broke BOTH off in a mature, adult way and am FINE. Why the HELL would I let 6 weeks of passion affect me this way?! No. Screw him. I am far too good for him. He has a history of these kinds of patterns and completely un-self aware. I AM aware. I am emotionally mature (well, comparatively)….There is nothing to miss from this man except this previously mentioned addiction to his attention. I’m not sure who posted before or in what thread, but someone mentioned making a list of things you want to do, and when you start thinking of these f*ck ups, look at your list and get moving. I’ve started my own list. I’ve blocked him from everything. Let him wonder, I know it drives him nuts and he has no right to know anything about what I’m doing. Let his imagination run wild…meanwhile there are quality men beating down my door. No, I’m not ready and actually KNOWING this and not just saying yes to the next man in line is empowering. I am okay. I am more than okay. I read somewhere that once you make a list of how you would like your ‘dream mate’ to treat you, and then treat YOURSELF that way. I want love, support, patience, someone to listen, etc., Then first I must love and support and have patience with myself. Thank you everyone. Seriously, the 7-10 days of PMS are the absolute fekking worst. I wish there was an easier way for all of us to keep in touch. I feel like I need you wonderful ladies…know what else helps me? Looking at all of Nat’s old posts and all the comments from 2, 3, 4 years ago. I see women suffering and know that NOW they are probably doing so much better, completely over these Ass Clowns. I wish there was a way to ask them how they’re doing, but deep down I know time really does heal. Anyway, rambling. Thanks and love to you all.
? I don’t feel selfish for putting myself first – I feel down right difficult, naughty, cheeky, out of order, bad, rude, manipulative – what ever feeling I sponge off the person trying to block my asserting myself – for their own reason and reward/benefit.
I am beginning to practice protection that boils down to self esteem, every time – if you know who you are for real and value yourself and validate yourself repeatedly – no one, not even mother theresa to the most evil people – can tell you who you are and determine what story you are going to play out against your true wishes – you grow it for yourself by making your own better informed choices.
Oona,
I love what you have said in the post. I need to learn to validate myself repeatedly maybe this would be a cure for some of the loneliness I feel. I am trying to get happy with my own company but it is tough.
MJ
It IS tough. Some days easier than others. Nights/weekends really suck when I’m not with my daughters. They seem to be what’s saving me – I feel calm, happy and naturally joyful when they’re with me. Hang in there MJ.
Hi d,
Dinner and drinks everyone at my place. LOL. Come one come all. Hey d I am doing much better I no longer cry when I hear songs that me and my x listened to. I don’t miss him. I just need friends.
Robin Thicke’s Lost Without You came on while I was
sitting in the salon today. Say Something I did not shed a tear. I felt NOTHING. Before I would have fallen apart and cried like I took a knife to the neck. This is a major sign of healing. Time does heal all wounds but there is no exact date on when the healing is final. It sucks but it takes time to recover. Ladies this is why you have to send AC packing before they do deep damage. Put yourself first.
A question for anyone-Have you ever been afraid of spending your life alone? Like there is no Mr. Right who is going to show up to spend time with you.
MJ
Yes MJ – I had to/am facing it and the more I choose do it, the better and happier I feel/the less danger I am in, less poor relationships that don’t live up to the fantasy or worse.
When I start going down the negative ‘no one will ever love me’ road – which does happen even now – if I’m on the ball I kick in the…right if I am going to be alone for the rest of my life – just how do I want to live it in my wildest, happiest feeling?….. – and then I try and find something practical/physical to move me towards those goals and keep them up step by step till I get there.
It’s a long way off for me to really forget about it completely, but thinking proactively and facing my fears of being alone at 80/90 years – if I was lucky enough to get to those years? – seems to help me get a distance from my fears and to start thinking positively/proactively about the future – without a man or children or grandchildren in it. My own version of a family.
I have started to note lots of good things for being alone that I actually value/like – being able to get up/go to sleep when I want with no one snoring heavily in my ear or heavy breathing. Watching what I want – going/doing/eating what I want without having to negotiate with anyone. Writing when I want, sketching, spending all my money on me, mostly, not having to cope with a child screaming in shops, waking me up early in the morning, worry, stress and time spent parenting etc, and putting up with being made to feel bad for being me by anyone – husband, children etc… you get the drift.
Ask yourself the question – I am on my own NOW just HOW in my best wishes do I want my life to look/feel and be – really? What would be really comfortable way of living that would stop you worrying about being on your own – and go and find it.
…..And I’ll give you a little tip – when it doesn’t involve a man rescuing you from your life, then you might just be on to something worth going and doing, and what ever it is – go and get yourself busy doing it/keep doing it till you have what ever it is you need for yourself to feel happy as you are……and before long you will forget about the past because you are living for now and for the amazing person you really are.
All the best…
Hi Oona,
Love your list on the value of being alone. There are days I have appreciated being alone and no one else has to schedule what I am doing. The only time (all this alone time) it is not appreciated is when FEAR seeps into the day and makes me NUMB.
My healing is tough because I am doing it alone. No family, no friends and no therapist. The path I chose. I am trying to rebuild my life. On days fear sets in I go negative. My major fear is being alone. A majority of the time now I have been focused on doing some really positive things.
I am managing some challenges with a client that has me stressed. The time I have to dedicate to solving this work related issue is pulling me from social things. It is draining the LIFE out of me which means this client will be cut soon. So, I am working on securing new clients. Stressful.
I would rather be out during more social things but right now my focus has shifted. Your tip is really good about finding something I love doing which will have me focus on the present. I appreciate your advice.
MJ
Yes, MJ, that is something I am facing head on. I’m embracing it. I figure if I accept that as a possibility it gives me more freedom to enjoy my life right now. I think otherwise there is a tendency to put off our lives for when he shows up. If he doesn’t show up, we’ve wasted our lives waiting around.
I’m focusing on what nourishes me – mind body and spirit. If and when he shows up, I’ll be the best version of myself and most likely, he will be too.
MJ,
Good to hear you were non-responsive to a song that used to bring on feelings. I’m not there yet. But I know there’s sense in putting ourselves first when we are being treated poorly. I think, for me, there was such shock, because I’d been treated well and couldn’t comprehend the EU-turn. Still don’t know what happened. But to answer your question, trait feels upsetting to think about being alone forever. It’s not what I want, so I don’t want to “prep” for that.
Hi MJ, I’ll be right there! You’re right – hanging with friends and making plans makes me feel MUCH better. Yes, I do worry that I may be alone forever. I’m trying to take a Buddhist approach to it, that if that is the case it doesn’t matter…I have a good friend whose mother got divorced in her 40s and never had another relationship her entire life, and was one of the happiest people I ever knew. She had a loving family around her and tons of loving friends and was completely fine and fulfilled. I even asked her about it once and she responded that she had done that in her younger years and really didn’t feel she was missing out. I’m not sure that’s my ultimate path but I do try to remind myself that a partner does not determine my worth or happiness.
I’m faithfully doing NC now, but the anger is consuming me. I know this is good, I’m not crying because I’m sad or miss him anymore at least. I’m just so angry that I allowed him to manipulate me. I’ve broken into angry tears frequently this weekend. Excuse the language here ladies, but I hate this motherf*cker and I honestly wish I had never met him. He brought nothing good into my life.
Dee,
I understand what you are saying about the anger. I no longer miss the jack ass who cheated on me. I will take what ever progress I can get. He caused me so much pain. I wish I never met him.
I sure don’t want to be alone forever, but like the lady you describe I guess there are some things we cant control. I don’t want a man to determine my worth.
Hang in there. You will be fine.
MJ
Anger is good!
Swearing is good!
Love it. You are seeing him for who he is.
Now let’s just get some other women here off the Cool-Aid!
I’ve just decided to go NC in order to put me first.
I’ve started reading the Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship which I knew would ring true. I’ve been communicating by text and email (thousands of them) with this guy who I felt my world revolved around.
I’ve known him for eight years and we’ve shared so much. For two years he was with someone else so I backed off. Then they split up a few months ago and he got back in touch. We talked a lot by email, then went for a drink. It was lovely and he texted me to say how much he’d enjoyed it and we must do it again.
It’s very hard for me to arrange a social life as I am carer for my disabled child. I had a couple of free nights but they both coincided with times he had things to do. He expressed his frustration but said we’d keep trying.
Meanwhile he told me that there were so many things he wanted to say to me but it was ‘a risk’, but that he hoped I picked up on them anyway. I was thrilled.
(I should mention that we’re very different ages, I’m much older than him.) He said we’d ‘talk later’ about these things he felt for me.
Finally I found that I had a free night nearly a week away so I texted him – just a simple ‘Are you free on Wednesday night?’ He didn’t answer.
I emailed him a few days later and told him that, whatever was going on in his life, not taking a couple of minutes to answer a simple question is rude. He agreed and apologised,and said, ‘I don’t think I would have been able to do tomorrow anyway.’
Excuse me?? It’s still in the future but you wouldn’t have been able to?
I’d have been fine if he just said at the time that he couldn’t make it.
Anyway, I realised it was never going to happen, I’ve been down this route with him in the past before he was with his girlfriend.
I stewed on it all for a bit then sent a rude email – mistake of course. He wasn’t pleased and didn’t understand my problem. I apologised but told him I thought we should leave each other alone as it never went anywhere good. He agreed, adding that he hoped I’m ok.
I think there’s an element of Florence in both of us. He lost his dad at a young age and looks after an elderly alcoholic mother. Also his sister has cancer. I was in an abusive relationship for years and my child has been ill for the last three years. He has been very kind to me on many occasions and I figured that a virtual relationship is the best I can hope for, given my situation. We have the same sense of humour, same interests, it all felt special. I did join a MeetUp group and had some great outings but I haven’t been able to go for months due to my carer situation and that will continue probably for ever.
The first day of NC I felt great, so empowered. The second day was hell, the pain felt unbearable. Now I’m on the third day and I do feel more connected with the world around me, less dreamy. I’ve had more conversations with people at work and it feels good. I know the pain will return at some point and there will be many problems ahead. I also feel ridiculous having so many complex emotions about something so silly, but I figure this is the one place where people will understand!
I’ve found the more stressed I am, the more pressure I’m under, the harder it is for me to recognize my needs/wants/limits. My default in those situations is fear/anxiety and people pleasing and conflict avoidance to ease the fear/panic/anxiety.
I don’t see setting healthy boundaries as being selfish, when I do it successfully, it feels amazing!
I keep reminding myself that it took many years to form this people pleasing/conflict avoiding habit, so I need to be patient with myself.
I’m around a ton of assertive people in my new job, so I am paying close attention and modeling what I see as healthy behaviors and communication styles.
Like anything, with practice it gets easier and feels less foreign.
I have noticed a difference in the way people are responding to me. The ones that get mad – they’ve shown me they only like my compliance. The one’s that respect my limit – they respect me.
I have been reading this site for two months now. I have ready MU&FG and have just started The Dreamer. I can relate to a lot that I read on here. But do have some differences in my situation that I would love everyone’s input on. I’ll try and sum this up as short as possible.
We were friends for 10+ years.Both worked in a restaurant together. I moved an ocean away. Went back to visit 3 years after leaving, and we hung out. After going back home we would talk, text, and FaceTime almost daily. I went back to visit for 2 weeks 4 months later for a wedding. This is where we became physical for the first time. I told him how strongly I felt for him, and he kept telling me that he didn’t want a relationship, and wasn’t able to commit due to things he needed to figure out in his own life. I should have listened to his words, but you will see where his actions didn’t seem to follow. 13 days after returning home from that trip, he got on a plane and came out to me for a month. We basically acted as a couple, but he would still say that he didn’t want to commit. He left, and our communication continued. 2 months later, he back out to me and stayed for 4 months. During that time he was working (not making much money). He had a constant problem with me being the one that provided everything. I am now in a very successful and lucrative career, and he is very intimidated by that. After going home for the 2nd time, things seemed to be ok the first few weeks, but then they started changing. Calls were less frequent, as were texts. He called one night begging me to come out there, telling me it would prove so much. The next couple of days I booked a ticket for 5 days, that was 10 days away. I did not hear from him, or get a response for him at all in those 10 days. I still took the 10 hour flight, and went to see him when I got there. He acted like he barely knew me, and told me he would call me later as he had an appointment. That night I got texts from him telling me that he was done. That I act good but am bad. That I give 2 but expect 4, and to enjoy my vacation. I pleaded with him to talk to me. He never responded, or answered my phone calls. I flew back home and tried to pick up the pieces of my broken heart. I didn’t hear from him for a couple of weeks, and then one day he called. I answered. He basically said that he cared so much about me, there was no way that I could miss him nearly as much as he missed me, and that I would always be better than him. He owes me money that he borrowed for work equipment, and brought that up too. He had repeatadly brought that up, as it bothered him he owed me since he never takes from anyone. Then he hung up. A week later, I get a random text saying that he knows he owes me money and feels like scum. I asked why he acts like I am pressuring him for that. He said he pressures himself, and that he will see me when the time in right (with a kiss face emoji) and that he is making his dreams come true on his own, and doesn’t want contact with anyone until then. He also cut his best friend, who also tried to help, out of his life the same time he did me. That text was 2 1/2 weeks ago and I haven’t heard from him since.
I am still so hurt 2 months later and can not wrap my head around any of it. How does he really feel? Why would he push me completely out of his life when all I did was try and help? How can he just dismiss me after being invited into all aspects of my life? He would tell me that he loved me, but also say he was incapable of love.
Please ask anything that you’d like to help me, as there are many blanks with my shortening this up. I really need help understanding all of this. I can’t focus on anything. I feel that he has just moved on with life, and here I am stuck in heartache and confusion.
I’m reading Dreamer and finally getting it for the first time. It’s so hard for people like us who feel that we mean what we say to comprehend how someone can make declarations to us and then behave as though we’re the crazy ones for paying any attention to what they told us. But that is what they do, whether from fear or insecurity or selfishness. I really feel for you but sadly it does sound as if you’re flogging a dead horse. Just know that the problem is with him and you will have a better future without him.
Hi Malooma,
Thank you. Yes, I have finally realized that this is issues he has with himself, and not me, yet he projects them on to me telling me that “you did this”. I guess the most confusing thing for me is that it seems typically their actions don’t match their words because they are telling you what you “want” to hear, but not following through. He was opposite. He would tell me that he didn’t want a relationship, or didn’t know how he felt, etc…But then he would drop everything and jump on a plane (twice in 4 months time) to come be with me for extended periods of time. When going out with my cousin he would say he and I weren’t together, but freak out if he was trying to call me when they were out to meet up with them thinking I was mad at him. I guess that is why I ignored all the flags. He actions were showing me that he cared, even when his words were otherwise. I’m just so confused on what to do. It is a long friendship that is getting thrown out with this, but then I think, do I really want to be his friend? I would treat someone I hated the way that he treated me when I flew over there for him. They say when you “over give” it can cause resentment, especially for a man.
Thoughts please?
I meant I *wouldn’t* even treat someone I hated the way that he treat me.
There’s a reference in Dreamer to men who say they don’t want a relationship. If a decent man feels that way but sees that you are becoming emotionally invested he will avoid giving you false hope. But other men will see it as an opportunity to exploit you while still being able to absolve themselves from blame by claiming that they were honest with you from the outset. Sadly this would seem to fit your situation. This man has behaved very badly, therefore he is not a great person and not worthy of you. We’ve all suffered from low self-esteem, that’s why we’re on this site. Ask yourself what you would say to a good friend who was treated so shabbily. You’ve invested time (and money) on this man but you can move on having gained valuable experience and feeling proud of yourself.
You are right. His last night here he asked me if I really wanted him to come back. I told him yes. He told me that he felt like he would be a road block in my life and always be holding me back. It’s hard to know exactly why he felt compelled to say that, but maybe it is because he knew he couldn’t give me what I wanted. He said numerous times that he would die a lonely man because he would realize everything about me too late, and then be comparing other girls to me, and he knew that nobody would be able to measure up. All of this used to just make me sad, and think that “I’ll wait! I don’t want to miss out either.” I never saw the hatred coming from him, like it did when I went there, I was completely blindsided by that. One of the last times that we were on the phone before he did the cut off (he was drunk) in the first part of the conversation he was telling me again about not wanting a commitment and needing to get his life straight, then the end of the conversation he was saying how much he cared and needed me. I called him out on his contradiction and he said “this is why I can’t be your friend anymore, because I say these things to you”. That was literally the last semi-plesant conversation that we had before I flew over there and got the cold shoulder. I do think that there were parts of him that felt bad, because hew knew how I felt, but I think that the other parts of him were trying to feel the same way, but he is just incapable.
Thoughts?
@JustConfused, read any of the posts on here about Florence Nightingale syndrome (do a search) and I’d also recommend “Women Who Love Too Much.” All of your “helping” was probably your trying to control him albeit subconsciously. After all, if you “helped” enough, surely he’d overcome that little aversion to being in a relationship, wouldn’t he? No, he wouldn’t. I’d also recommend “Co-Dependent No More.” Good luck!
Thank you Diane. I will look into that.
Yes, I do believe you are partly right with why I over gave. Some of the things were necessary, as we were in the talks of opening a business together. I have the finances, he has the talent. He has HUGE issues with still owing me for that, and in fact, whenever he does decide to reach out to me, that debt is what he wants to talk about, calling himself scum for still owing.
this is a man that needs help with his mental health but will have to seek it on his own. You cannot help him, nor will you ever be able to make sense of his actions because he lives only for the moment.
They know what to say, there is just nothing behind their words. So save your sanity and stop trying to find reasons. Then go on with your life.
You cannot change this person, maybe he has new friends, maybe he has a drinking problem or other substance abuse problem you do not know about.
Let go of this man. There is another out there, and lovely new experiences as well for you in your life. It is hard.
You will feel grief and sadness, but no contact is the best way to cure yourself – this way you avoid this confusion, why be with someone who causes chaos and confusion? I called my ex a “crazy maker” because his words and actions never matched and it would make me crazy, then I would be blamed for being upset or emotional- it is a terrible way to live.
So, take your time, but find other things to do and keep this crazy maker out of your life. You will be so much happier after the necessary re-grouping of your senses.
Hi Shano,
Thank you. Yes, there is a drinking problem. There has been for some time. When he first slowed the communication with me, and then contacted me, he said that he had stopped drinking for a week and now “sees the light and no one is in it”. I know that there are deep mental issues there. Like most of the men talked about here, he came from a back ground of emotional and physical abuse being the norm to witness. He would constantly tell me that he never knew what “love” felt like, until feeling the way that I loved him. He was raised my his grandma, then ripped away from her by his Mom out of spite for an argument that she and the Grandma got into when he was about 7. He never liked his step dad. And his dad has been in and out of prison his whole life. The day he called, after my awful trip there, he kept repeating that I would always be better than him, and he is a failure. He really had huge inadequacy issues, when he would compare himself to me. While he was here with me, he would tell me that he had a hard time “feeling like the man” because I always did everything. I would try to back off of doing things to let him do them, but I am just a go getter, and so independent, that he never felt like he could do “his job” as the man. I would always compliment him, and never put him down, but he would always say he needed to feel that way about himself, not just hear me say it. When he left here, he told me that he wanted to go home for a bit, then come back and prove to me that he could do for me, what I do for him. He left a lot of important things of his at my house. When he got back home, things were not going his way as planned, and he flipped. That is when the unexpected pulling away came in, and then the ultimate cut off when I went over there. I do know that I need to just move forward, and will hopefully one day realize that I am “better off”. But I am not there yet. I just wonder where it all derived from. Did he just decide that he didn’t see me “that” way? Is it because he would never feel “worthy” of me? I don’t know, and as all the ladies here know, not knowing is the hardest part.
No, I do not believe that a friend would treat me that way. I still have a hard time believing that it was him that treated me that way, after knowing him for so long. I always knew that there were issues there as his friend, but you get a different look on that when you live with someone and are with them day in and day out. I guess that is something that I look “forward” to. The day that I can say, and really believe, that I am better off, because why would I want to put up with the drinking, hot and cold moods, and hatred that he comes with? Now the answer is because I love him. But at some point I need to really understand that love is so much more than trying to save someone that isn’t really trying to save themselves, though they act like they are. Maybe he is doing all the positive steps that he says he is, but hard to believe since the one time he called me he was completely drunk. He had the nerve to tell me that he cares so much about me, and just doesn’t want to care about anyone right now. I asked him if he even missed me, and he said that there is no way that I could miss him half as much as he missed me. I asked him why he cut off communication with me then if he missed me. He snapped that I don’t know how hard it is for him everyday to not call me, that I don’t know how often everyday he thinks about me, etc… Then with the follow up texts basically saying that he will see me when the time is right and that he is making his dreams come true on his own, and doesn’t want any contact until then. What does all of this mean? I know I will never really know, but hope that you ladies can help with insight since your heart is not connected to this situation, so you aren’t blinded like I am.
Thank you for any advice!
You will feel differently after you stick to No Contact after a few months to a year. When you ever ruminate on him …stop.
He was your friend first, but would a true friend treat you the way he has? This is the question I asked myself about my ex, and the answer was obviously “No”.
So that was the end for me.
I have the deepest respect for anyone using a dating site trying to find a mate. I looked at profiles on a dating site and I am disgusted and depressed at the quality of men. It is tough trying to find someone the traditional way socializing. So, I thought I would look. OMG.
One profile read as follows:
I’m a pleasingly plump furry divorced guy living now living in xxxx in an open relationship with some great women.
Yuck he is in a relationship with some great women and looking for more. When do they stop?
This was just an open search. Disgusted. Depressed. This is just one of the many disgusting profiles I saw. Take a deep breathe and come up with a new strategy. WOW.
Knowing the line…
Blurred lines, I mean furry. You draw the furry line.
Priceless. Hilarious. Pathetic. Furry.
Don’t just draw a line. Use a razor when needed.
Mary Jane
Why do you even care what these people are doing and who says it’s even true, they can write whatever they like.
A girlfriend and I check out guys on dating sites and we end up laughing our heads off reading some of the garbage they write – ok, we’re also a bit superficial and shallow looking at some of the awful photo’s posted, one guy looked like a beached walrus with sunglasses … eew!
Don’t take it seriously. There are lots of good people out there, once you get more grounded and can find your sense of humour you won’t worry about the self deluded idiots out there.
Hi Pauline,
PMS + FEAR = My Post Yesterday. You are absolutely right humor has to be interjected into an online search. You and your gurl friend have the right idea.
I had a great sense of humor at one point. Your right when I am more grounded I will get it back. Yesterday was a BAD day for me.
MJ
@malooma and @just confused,
Both of these men sound like thy are with other women or at least seeing someone else too. I don’t mean to be harsh, but recognizing this possibility may clear up some of the confusion.
@Leanne, agreed. Whenever a man starts going on and on about how he can’t be with you because you’re “too good” for him what he really means is he’s got someone else he’s focusing on right now. When that starts to go bust, he’ll come back sniffing around.
@Leanne
I have suspected this might be the case, but it doesn’t lessen the confusion at all.
When we started to chat again after his split from his girlfriend I hoped that I would be able to handle being just friends. I recognised that it was risky for me but it’s very hard for me to have a social life and I thought talking to him might be helpful in easing my isolation. One day he told me he was having a bit of a bad day as he’d learnt that his ex was seeing someone else and, even though he’d been the one to end it, it still hurt a bit. I felt a sting of jealousy knowing that he still had feelings concerning her, and I straightaway took that as a warning signal that the ‘friends’ situation was more than I could handle and I began to back off.
He reacted immediately, asking me why I suddenly seemed ‘off’. He was very insistent so finally I told him how what he’d said had affected me and that I didn’t want to let myself be hurt. I told him that I felt very embarrassed admitting to this. He apologised profusely and said he should have realised how it would make me feel. He said I had absolutely nothing to be embarrassed about and that he was so glad I’d said what I did. He said that communication is so important, that lack of it had caused tension between us in the past, and that he’d been wondering where we stood and was glad to know because he had strong feelings for me. He said he definitely didn’t want to hurt me so I needed to tell him anything that made me uncomfortable.
I felt then that I could trust him and that even when he, inevitably, found another girlfriend he would be able to tell me and let me down gently. Then, of course, almost immediately he began to blow hot and cold and flip-flap. Although this may be classic behaviour it’s still, perhaps intentionally, confusing.
I’ve known him for eight years. We sat next to each other at work for about six of those years and talked every day, we went on work nights out, on a weekly basis at one time and they often ended up as just me, him and two other colleagues. We’ve shared probably many thousands of texts and emails. I am not someone he hardly knows and whose reactions would catch him unawares. He’s given every sign down the years of being compassionate and empathetic, firstly helping me with recovering after the end of my very traumatic abusive marriage, then with the awful shock of my daughter’s life-changing illness.
So when someone who’s very intelligent and seemingly quite self-aware and well-intentioned follows this pattern, even though it might seem predictable, it’s definitely confusing!
It does help though, knowing I’m not alone and his actions are a way many people behave and not just something exceptional that I’ve somehow triggered. Thanks Nat and everyone else
Wow, I’d be very confused as well. He initiated the “we need to communicate more” conversation with me as well, and also started blowing cold again shortly after. I really understand your confusion when they seem to be there for you through rough times (mine was there for me through my divorce as well why we were friends), fun times, and then just BAM…cold and nothing. I am sorry that you are going through this. I know how much it hurts.
Thanks for a timely post, Natalie. I set some boundaries with work this week. I love my job, but my boss has been relying on me to work a *lot* of overtime. I finally had a two-day weekend scheduled (can’t remember the last time that happened). I shut my phone down to protect and guard my time. I could tell I really needed the time off because I was starting to get that burned-out and cranky feeling and that is not me. Sure enough, I wound up getting called in, but I did not get the message in time because I had my phone switched off. My boss has the same days off that I do and technically (as she is the supervisor) it is her responsibility to fill in shifts as needed. I love the woman dearly, but she has not been working nearly the overtime that I have.
I’m still amazed by how applicable this dating-relationship advice is to one’s career. Then again, they say that going on a job interview is a lot like going on a first date. So, maybe it’s not all that surprising.
In response to Mary Jane’s query above about spending the rest of one’s life alone, I’ve finally gotten to a place where I really am okay with this. I put it this way to my therapist last week: at this point, I’m honestly not sure what I’d be getting out of being married. I’ve learned how to take care of myself. I don’t need a guy financially. I work as a caregiver and deal with a lot of kids in my professional life, so I know I can take care of a child. I have all the friends I need for companionship. I know marriage is wonderful, but it is also a lot of work. The trade-offs have to be worth it.
My therapist actually pointed out to me that because I am so self-sufficient, marriage might not be the best fit for my personality. I appreciated his candor and I can see his point. I’ve had two shots at marriage and I turned both of them down. Part of me would like to be married someday, but I will honestly be fine if it doesn’t happen. I would rather be figuring these things out before leaping into marriage rather than after. I think a lot of people get married because of social pressure (or other reasons) without really taking the time to work out whether or not it’s the best fit for them personally.
While I was in therapy last year, I remember frequently expressing a great fear of being selfish while trying to learn how to focus on myself. While it’s still a struggle, I’ll always remember what my therapist said – “You’re not being selfish, you’re being self-ful.” This post reminded me of that. So important and so true. Thank you!