If you’ve stuck like glue to an unhealthy relationship or devoted your energies to upgrading a one-night stand, booty call, Friends With Benefits or ad-hoc fling into a full time, bonafide committed relationship, it’s safe to say that you very much believe in the fairy tale and the fantasy.
You seek to be the exception to the rule. In fact, you seek love against the odds.
The sheer number of people I hear from who are residing in some sort of sexual hell because they participated in casual arrangements is astounding. Not only does it tell me that there’s a hell of a lot of people out there seeking to be anomalies (which defeats the purpose, really), but they’ve all reduced themselves to attempting to be Vivian in Pretty Woman. They think they can turn booty call, casual sex and friends-with-benefits water into relationship wine.
Just in case Pretty Woman has escaped you, let’s do a quick recap of the film.
Single rich guy Edward (Richard Gere) needs an escort for a week of social engagements and picks up prostitute Vivian (Julia Roberts) while cruising. I guess because it must have been really hard in the early nineties to be a rich man without a date. Anyway, I digress. They hang out, he thinks she’s doing drugs in his bathroom (she’s flossing her teeth). Then they sleep together (no kissing). The following day he gives her money to buy clothes for the social engagements. Some of the staff are rude. He then takes her on a spree where it’s like giving the bitchy sales assistants the proverbial two fingers. They have a great time while out. He falls in love.
At one of the events, his friend figures out that she’s on the game. Eventually, he tries it on. She storms off, packs up her stuff and goes back to her busted-up apartment. He swoops in by limo at the end, shouting out of the roof. He then climbs a trellis with a bunch of roses. You get the gist. Side note: I still love the film, haha!
Now I’m not suggesting that there aren’t more than a few escorts that have landed on their feet.
Still, unless you are in that line of business, it’s time to ask yourself why your fairy tale has a beginning of:
“Once upon a time, I lay on my back and decided to go for a casual relationship in the hope that they’d get to know me without ‘pressure’, we’d have a good time, and then they’d basically be unable to survive without me. Somewhere between late-night texts, the ambiguity, and sometimes the requests to partake in shady sexual shenanigans or even having to compete with others, they fell in love with me.”
When you have this mentality, you really value sex and make assumptions about what you think is likely to happen as a result of sexual interaction. You’re making the dangerous assumption that a sexual connection is an emotional connection that will lead to a love connection. Unfortunately, the casual sex trap is waiting to grip you in its lubricated jaws.
This isn’t about whether it’s ‘bad’ to have sex on the first date (it’s not) or whether you should ‘hold out’, or wait for X amount of dates, or develop cobwebs in your pants by waiting around for someone extra-extra special before you get down.
The issue with casual relationships is that many people use sex as a currency that they think generates an IOU that they can cash in for a relationship.
Sex without the love, care, trust, respect and mutual relationship to go along with it, is just sex. When you allow someone to treat you like dialalay.com or even textalay.com and arrange a shag with the ease of ordering a pizza, something is very wrong.
I hear from people who have been in casual sexual arrangements for years! YEARS! That’s just pure f*ckery, excuse the pun! Do anything over a period of time and it becomes habit. You start to have relationship ideals that outpace the true nature of the ‘relationship’.
Hard as it may be to hear, if you allow yourself to be someone’s sexual plaything and you actually want more plus the situation affects you emotionally, it’s like being an unpaid hooker.
Yeah, you might get some trimmings around it like gifts, dinner, weekends away, or being wheeled out to a social occasion, but really, that’s just so they can be assured of your complicity to get the shag. And then the likelihood is that you’ll be on a bit of a high afterwards and will remind yourself of the gift, or the dinner or whatever until it wears off and you realise that you’ve been ‘done’. Literally.
That’s not to say that it would be better for cash to be left on the table, but when you recognise that you’re an unpaid hooker or escort, instead of feeling outraged and then committing yourself to a vocation of making them see that you’re worth more, you should be outraged and flush them out of your life.
Also, let’s be real, they’re just not that special. You can buy your own gifts, dinner, and have some company without having to cough up a shag. You’re not that desperate.
And really, it doesn’t matter when you have sex; it matters about how blinded you are by it. It matters what assumptions you make and whether you bother to go through the discovery phase of dating and find out about the person anyway. A lot of people operate with I got laid, so it must have been for a good reason. OK let me scratch around for reasons to justify it. Yep, The Justifying Zone.
When someone can get what they see as their needs being met, whether it’s sexual, attention, ego-stroking, or whatever, and they don’t even have to stump up a committed relationship and some love, care, trust, respect and the other landmarks to go with it, let me assure you that they’re not going to have an attack of conscience one day. They’re not going to say “Right, you’ve given me sex on 46 occasions, responded to my texts within 3 minutes on 95% of those occasions and have shown me loyalty while enjoying the pleasure of my company, so I now grant thee a relationship.”
Sex is not a currency that you can negotiate a relationship out of. You start out booty or you reduce down to booty, you stay booty.
When you use casual relationships as a back-door route to a relationship, it’s a gamble that will yield diminishing returns. It’s also safe to say that nobody in their right mind evaluates the potential for a relationship on how well you sex them. Vaginas and penises actually give no indication of what someone’s qualities, characteristics, and values are and whether they’re congruent with yours. Being a superb lay hasn’t stopped some people from being deficient in character or ability to commit to a relationship. Basically, they have nothing to do with compatibility.
You.Are.Not.In.Pretty.Woman. Or that Friends With Benefits film with Justin Timberlake. This is real life. And it’d be one thing if the booty call grew organically into a relationship (unlikely, but let’s pretend), but mutual relationships aren’t born from force.
Casual arrangements–calling it a ‘casual relationship’ is an oxymoron)–are really short-term dalliances best reserved for those that have the self-esteem to know their limits.
You have no business being in a casual relationship if you’d go from here to eternity twisting yourself into a pretzel so that you convince the other party of your worth. In fact, trying to do this in a casual relationship is akin to closing the door after the horse has bolted.
A person should treat you as a worthwhile individual deserving of love, care, trust, and respect, not assume a low value or manage down your expectations to get down to their level. More importantly, you should know your value and live it.
If you’re enjoying your booty call and want nothing more, rock on. I certainly wouldn’t continue if you’re experiencing any disrespect. From the moment you start trying to convince them of your worth or convince them into a relationship, it’s time to pull your pants up and get off the booty ride. And stop selling yourself short. You deserve better than putting yourself on the street corner of someone’s life.
Your thoughts?
Find out more about the perils of casual ‘relationships’, ambiguity, and selling yourself short in unavailable relationships in my books Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl and The Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship.
Image source: Mettel Ray
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“…the casual sex trap is waiting to grip you in its lubricated jaws.” … LOL!
Julia Roberts, is actually 1 of my favorite actresses and Pretty Woman is a classic. Up into this past saturday I spent 6 years off and on with someone I considered to be a “friend”. Friendship turned into love ( for me) and I began sleeping with him. I was a human mattress and although I wasn’t content I accepted the bare minimum. He intially said he wanted to see where things went between us , but things never went. No matter what he did ( and trust he did alot ) I continued to accept him back in my life, and I reached out to him on several occassions because I wanted him in mines. From 21 to 26 ( next week I’ll be 27) I remained loyal .. it was self abuse and I became numb to the pain. Last year in august we got back in touch ( via facebook .. *sigh* ) and he said sorry for alot of things. I never worked through my feelings I buried them and because of this I started messing with him again only this time I was vocal about wanting a relationship. In novemember he agreed . . on January 3rd a day after his 27th b-day he broke up with me in text. I had never been so hurt .. even though I had been. Exactly a week after he broke up with me he text to see if we could still be friends. I said no BUT for the past 4 months off and on I have slept with him, and each morning after have regretted it. He down graded me to an eff buddy … no I down graded me. It finally dawned on me that he was NEVER my friend. I never knew him but I’ve always known who he was. He told me time and time again he didn’t want a relationship but I thought if I waited it out . .. he would love me. I realized I didn’t love me. It’s always been about sex and I’m tired. It’s always been about him and now it’s old. He has 2 kids with someone he goes back and forth with. There are other females in and out of his life. It will always be something and before I allow someone to break me I much rather be ghost. I always thought I would be there for him. I much rather be here for me ! This site is awesome
“It finally dawned on me that he was NEVER my friend. I never knew him but I’ve always known who he was.”
This sounds very similar to something that I went through myself. I had this epiphany about someone after an on/off relationship too, I think I always knew that we were not ever truly friends and he was never going to commit to being with me (or being without me for that matter), but I wanted so much for things to work out that I was willing to turn a blind eye. Even though I think I knew in my heart that things would never really go anywhere, I just wanted for him to tell me out of his own mouth what he wanted, once and for all. Or as my friend put it: “You have all the evidence right in front of you but that’s not good enough. You want the confession.” That confession never came…I eventually got tired of not having my needs met too and haven’t spoken to him since. Had I known how to trust my own instincts I would have probably dismissed him a few months after meeting him.
And just like yours, this guy was on/off with me but was also on/off with others in between our times of separation. But the interesting thing is that I had a string of on/off relationships in between as well (talk about water seeking its own). I suppose that should be a humongous red flag for any of us that these guys are not for us, and maybe even a clue into some of our own issues that we need to work through. Interesting to see that someone else went through something similar….
Thank you for responding. I have been reading this blog for the past few days and it has helped. It’s bananas people want you to fall they just never tell you .. they wont catch you. There were 2 occassions we didn’t speak. Once for 15 months the other for 2 1/2 years but still I dealt with him. I thought about something he said once after we were intimate. He told me that the mother of his 2 sons told him that she would always be his b*%ch. He then looked at me and said “you’ll always be my b*%ch too”. Those words have stuck with me and I’m done.
Hi TJ
If you have only just found BR it might take you a little while to fully process what has happened as accept the reality of who he is and what the relationship has been. And it has been a long long time. What I suppose I am saying is stick with it and try try try not to give in to temptation to get back in contact. The more time goes by and the more reading and sharing you do the more you will grow and not want to go back.
And p.s. don’t sleep with this man ever ever again! Make the decision and stick with it. It is both very hard and very easy at the same time. Learning from BR will help no end
Good luck and best wishes to you x
Polly- The last time was the last time. I’ve been praying to God for strength because I know I’ll need it. First I’ll let it hurt .. then I’ll let it go. Truthfully I knew 5 years ago that I should leave him alone. We were “friends” for a year before anything physical happended. Once it got physical and he got what he wanted .. he had no use for me. I was no longer a challenge. The most precious thing a man can give you aside from respect is TIME ,but I settled for time in the bedroom. I know ( now) that I never loved him .. I just had a high tolerance for pain. Before I found this site .. I knew realistically what I needed to do for myself. The last straw came when he let me leave his house at 1 something in the morning , and I had no way to get home. As harsh as it sounds he is dead to me. I had to bury him in my mind. I wont be going down that road again. Thank you the encouragement. The “sex shop” is closed
Sigh. FBGs often try to bait people or sex their way to commitment. It rarely works.
tired_of_assanova, I’m not hip so what does FBGs mean?I never tried baiting my way/ sexing my way into a commitment. Maybe I don’t understand you or your not understanding me.
FBG = fallback girl.
“He told me that the mother of his 2 sons told him that she would always be his b*%ch. He then looked at me and said “you’ll always be my b*%ch too”. Those words have stuck with me and I’m done.”
Omigod. What the fuck? How disgusting & disrespectful. That’s not a human; that’s a walking shit stain. 😐 Best wishes to you as you leave that skidmark alone forever.
“Shit stain”–I will use this again and again!
“Once upon a time, I lay on my back …” lol, what I love about these articles … when you find yourself at a moment in your life when you realise that you have made some really stupid choices, and you just feel like crying …. Well, not only does it feel reassuring to read your no bullsh*t, right to the point, good sense advice … but to get a good laugh out of it as well thanks to your humor … it’s just what is exactly needed. Can you throw in a little cyber hug with your articles too ?? 😉
“…develop cobwebs in your pants by waiting around for someone extra extra special before you get down”~too funny!
Natalie, your writing is so witty. These are serious topics, of course, but I welcome the comic relief. I find myself cracking up at most of your posts lately.
Honestly, casual sex is degrading and just another form of accepting crumbs when you want the cake. I’ve learned the hard way (excuse the pun) that I’m too sensitive and lack a strong enough psyche to cope with it. Just thinking of that sinking “morning after” feeling makes me queasy. No sex is worth that.
TJsparkles OMG your story is my story…
i started off being a booty call ( i also didnt want relationship for the first 3 months but then started developing feelings), i gave him ultimatum: relationship or f… off from my life,so we were in one for few months,then he broke up with me coz he still missed his ex who he had just have a baby with (they broke up when she fell in pregnant coz he was cheating on her with few other women, plus his got a baby with another ex from 5 years ago), we got back after a week ( think i forced him ) then he broke up with me again after i found out he was texting lots to his ex trying to take her out and do stuff for her (he said that was coz he wanted to see the baby),then i was acutally his f… buddy for few months again, found out he was seeing someone else in the same time,his close friend told me that id better stay away from him and i deserve so much better,but he came back running saying how amazing i was and im the only women we wants,so got back together also in beggining of november then i developed my depression and he dumped me in january coz i was always so miserable…since then he mindfu..ks me and ive been insane for months but now i start seeing it clearly,especially after i saw him few days ago,i realized i dont really know this guy and he dont know me,he never ever ask me about my life! its so true when u start as a booty call you end up as a booty call!
stuck.in.fantasy- I too had to deal with the mother of his 2 children. Their situation was almost the same as ours ONLY difference is they have been going back and forth for 9 years , and obviously there are kids involved. Early on she would call my phone and be disrespectful , but I protected him. Honestly I also called myself protecting her feelings , but she viewed me as the problem not him. When I started seeing him I was under the impression that they weren’t dealing with eachother. That was a lie. I was under the impression that I was the only person he was dealing with .. that was a lie. I put my life in jeopardy via sex. He was in control of everything and if I didn’t fall in line .. there was a problem. I have no kids .. I love them , but I would rather wait to be with someone who may very well be the father of my children someday. Our stories are similiar . Alot of the things I read on here make me go WOW … it bothers me to know how many women/man go through this. Sex is just sex to them and it’s true if it means more to you .. it’s time to walk away or allow someone to dictate your life/future. Stay strong .. we’ll get through this
Stuck,
You do know who this guy is, you’ve known for a loooooooong time, but have chosen to ignore. This is a terrible situation!!!!
This guy is a real piece of crap and is disrespecting many, it’s time to show yourself some love and respect, and extricate yourself from the situation.
TJsparkles – ive seen this situation before, lets see if you have the strength to do what very few people (mainly women) can do in this situation; draw a line and enforce it. It requires a strength few people have so lets see if you are worthy of what you want (if you really want it).
It was mentioned in the article that most people use sex as some kind of negotiating tool and item of trade – Im really impressed to hear this said. I have NEVER known someone who really abstains from sex due to their professed reasons; religion etc. It’s always really about power or their perception of power – by doing this you communicate that the only real value you imagine you have in their eyes is that of a sex object. Your would be partner then asks themselves why sex is such a big deal to you and do they really want to get involved with someone who makes such a complication out of something that is really quite simple to most sane people – there’s only ONE reason to have sex with someone – because you WANT to. Simple.
I’ll say this as a man, and I’m sure this applies to everyone, when you meet ‘the one’ you no longer want to mess around with anyone else – I don’t are if your the most died in the wool player – you will give it all up for THAT GIRL or THAT GUY. Bear that in mind when they are seeing someone else and your hoping that they love you.
Willybone
“when you meet ‘the one’ you no longer want to mess around with anyone else – I don’t are if your the most died in the wool player – you will give it all up for THAT GIRL or THAT GUY. ”
No they don’t. For these people/men “the one” is a bit like a willy bone – she doesn’t exist. Your reasoning, and one that many ladies posting here are lamenting about, is that if ‘she’ was special enough then he would stop acting like a total tit. The trouble is that he IS a total tit.
Brava Fearless. I second that.
willybone, i disagree. using sex as an item of trade does not equal using sex for power.
most women, at least the women here, do not use sex for power. the women here have been victims, first of themselves by having low self-esteem, and second by going out with guys who would in turn victimize low-self-esteem women. by, since you mention it, using sex for power, and making sex seem like it could be love. a negotiating tool is different from power – these women are *capitulating* their power, mostly to total douchebags. and they shouldn’t be. but they probably are offering sex, as a negotiating tool for relationship, because they think that that’s all their worth. they’re wrong.
and i have seen men and women change when they meet the ONE. except meeting the ONE just happens, and the ONE is the ONE from the get-go of the interaction – you can’t become the ONE for that person if you don’t happen to be from the beginning, and you certainly can’t if you’ve started or been downgraded to booty call. THAT’s the difference fearless is talking about – the folly of chasing after someone, and giving over all your own power, when you were never the ONE (and the other person was probably never the ONE for you) in the first place, someone, in fact, for whom there is no ONE because they are truly, honestly incapable of a healthy relationship.
AND…i do go on…the reason i think people don’t abstain from sex for their stated reasons has nothing, NOTHING to do with power. they don’t abstain because, pure and simple, they really want to get laid, and to get at least a facsimile of intimacy, and the prospect of doing so pales in the moment in comparison to their principles.
i’m not saying women don’t misuse power – but, respectfully, i think the power you’re talking about is a guy thing. sex is more complicated for women, most of them, anyway.
Well put.
The power I talk of, is a woman’s assumption that sex with her is SO VALUABLE and important to a man. He can go else where while you get to know him but most women would not be happy with that either. To expect a man to wait for a woman to make her mind up, with all the flakiness and ambiguity that women can bring even when they really like a man, is not something you can expect a man to do.
Whew. Thank you, Fearless. I almost got ensnared in the sick reasoning: if only I were good enough, the One, had the ‘right’ attitude about sex, didn’t take it so seriously, blah blah, ad infinitum = he would change himself for me. It doesn’t happen.
“For these people/men “the one” is a bit like a willy bone – she doesn’t exist.”
When I read this earlier tonight, I was utterly confused, didn’t get what a “willy bone” was; only now after a couple drinks do I understand and I’m cracking up. Go, Fearless!!!
P.S. Fearless, have you found anyone else since Mr. More-Brilliant/Unavailable-Than-Thou?
Snowboard,
Ha-ha! Yes, I have found someone else: Me!
Another man? Pah. I don’t even know what a decent one of those would look like.
God your comment really made me feel better. I’ve been thinking bad things about myself all day and now I realize, “He IS a total tit” I think we should put it on t-shirt and market it.
Ive seen with my own eyes, people play the field and then ‘settle down’ perfectly happy with someone they feel is ‘the one’ (a concept I think is stupid but a concept that certainly exists in the minds of many people). They leave a legacy of tormented and aching hearts in their wake and still end up with what they always wanted. Not all players or people who indulge in casual, ‘meaningless’ relationships do so because they have problems with intimacy – they do it because they can, it’s more fun than not and they genuinely enjoy members of the opposite sex and are honest about their lack of deeper interest. This is not wrong because it does not suit the other party. Shit happens. Worse shit happens as well though. I know it would be nice to believe that the universe is fair on – our terms – and that someone who breaks your heart gets their comeuppance buy never falling in love, but it just ain’t always that way. And for us to enter into intimate relationship with someone we have to have alot of common ground – that is what makes it an intimate relationship and allows us to relate intimately – like really does attract like in that sense, if he is a TIT, so is she.
Willybone – I’m very worthy of what I want it just took me a bit to see it. I have to agree with Fearless, though. If you’ve been doing “wrong” you don’t just start doing right. You have to actively be working on yourself.
Good for you TJsparkles, it’s about knowing your worth and acting accordingly.
Willybone,
I would add that it is very dangerous for any woman (or man) to be told that he or she is only worthy of things if they prove their worth. There are a lot of people on this site who have been trying to do just that, and if you’ve read past comments then you see where that’s gotten them: unhappy. I think your wording might send the message to people that they are not worthy of love that is freely given. Maybe what you meant is that a person should know what he or she is worth and know not to settle for anything less? If such is the case, then I concur.
“It’s always really about power or their perception of power – by doing this you communicate that the only real value you imagine you have in their eyes is that of a sex object.”
Eh, I don’t think that it’s about assuming that they only value you as a sex object. More like weeding out the ones who won’t or don’t recognize the other things that you have to offer. You can’t force someone to value all of your attributes, but you can certainly find out who genuinely loves and cares for you and who’s pretending to just to get in your pants. And it’s also for you to make sure that you’re actually interested in that person for the right reasons, not just for the sex. I have been told by guys that I trust that they prefer to get to know a woman before jumping in bed with her, but only if she lets it be known that she actually has something else to offer. Sure sex can be fun, but it is also an incredibly intimate and personal experience for a lot of people. I think of it as the ultimate prize, and I’m not about to give it away to someone whose not going to value it the same way that I do. Anyone who actually takes themselves seriously wants to share that experience with a like-minded individual. I’m sure there are men and women out there who withhold sex in order to maintain the upper hand, and the might just think that that’s all they have to offer the world. But they really are in the minority. It’s not about wielding power over another individual, it’s about recognizing the power that you have over yourself to maintain enough self-control so you can act with common sense and use good judgment when dealing with another person. Sex has the ability to get in the way of that…
“I’ll say…
“I’ll say this as a man, and I’m sure this applies to everyone, when you meet ‘the one’ you no longer want to mess around with anyone else – I don’t are if your the most died in the wool player – you will give it all up for THAT GIRL or THAT GUY.”
-All of the players that I’ve ever seen who have found “that girl” are usually chasing after the girl who turns the tables on them. They sure did give up their player ways (on the surface at least) , but not one of those cases could I say that the relationships were healthy. They were emotionally unavailable men chasing after even more emotionally unavailable women who fulfilled their desire to chase after something in order to prove their worth to themselves. Nothing more, nothing less. What you don’t realize is that the chase is actually part of a player’s game, so they really didn’t give up anything, they were the same people that they always were: players. They were never actually in relationships that were mutually fulfilling because they were constantly having to work to maintain relationships that were never on their terms to begin with. It’s hard to maintain the energy to even think about messing around with anyone else if you’re constantly having to run a marathon to chase after someone…
Not all that meets the eye! I know two playas that got into LTRs – one is open, so they still play around, and the other is open as well – so the guy in that one plays around.
I’m feeling a bit depressed tonight reading this. I know one friend that has upgraded their booty call and committed, I know of a polyamorous person (I can’t even get one and she has THREE!), someone who met their partner while sleeping around (but they probably slept with hundreds of people in the process), another one that also upgraded their booty call… the list goes on.
A lot of my friends add their hookups and booty calls to facebook (harem additions?) and I feel a bit low because my friends list is quite small – 80 or so, theirs is 200-300. A few months ago.
I’m so over casual sex. I really am. I have emotional needs that are not being met at all. Actually having sex with someone that just wants to get laid feels like WORK, and it’s just crumbs. I think I will go insane.
I rang up today and flushed out a ‘date’ (I was just trying to meet them once to suss them out before officially asking) as well I had been seeing over a week or two now. Pulled the usual ‘I Am The Busiest Person In The Universe and I Am Working Night Shift’ blah blah. Their efforts were very poor indeed, so when I rang up and told them, no further, they said ‘but we can still be friends’. I cut them off. Had enough of this crap, seriously.
Is it just TOO HARD to say ‘I am not interested anymore’ or find someone that will not sh*t themselves when they get a PHONE CALL or pull disappearing manoeuvrings. So frustrated right now!!
One of the questions I asked the “player” ex AC was “How come a nice guy like you hasn’t met a woman to settle down with?” He said “I’ve met plenty of beautiful women to settle down with, but it just didn’t suit my lifestyle, however, I’m ready to settle down now”. I translated that in my head to “OK, I’m going to be the one he settles down with!”
He didn’t want to settle down with anyone (although his online dating profile says different) he just wanted to future fake, make promises, show off (with his nice car, good job, 3 properties etc), shag then disappear and that’s exactly what he done.
I didn’t realise until I found BR that I was trying to make myself the exception to his rule/s. Sometimes I wonder if he has met the right women and swept her off her feet (like he did to me) and settled down. I doubt it!
Accept the fact that maybe he has and let me bask in you suffering.
Im not suggesting that someone proves to an uninterested partner that they are worthy. Im saying that if you refuse to walk away then you are not worthy of anything better. If you keep returning, your ACTIONS speak a hell of allot louder than your worthless WORDS. In fact your words in contrast to our actions prove how disingenuous you are.
Waiting to have sex is not something I have a problem with – if sex is something that makes a person feel ‘attached’ then they should lead their sex lives as they see fit. There is research to suggest that this is something that effects women more than men due to hormonal reasons (the effect of testosterone/estrogen on bonding hormones released after sex).
What I am saying is that my observation has been ‘I want a committed relationship with him before I ‘give him’ sex”. “I want a marriage before I give him sex” “I want to know for sure that we will always be together and that he and I are both invulnerable and immortal before I take the risk of giving him the only thing he values”. People get together and break apart for all manner of reasons – sometimes death.
The reality is that a woman falls in ‘love’ (limerance) with a man but refuses to have sex until it’s exclusive and committed because she ‘gets attached’ from sex. Seven years of zero sex later and she is still holding out for him to be the farther of her kids. But she is not attached because they never had sex. S.E.V.E.N. Y.E.A.R.S. L.A.T.E.R.
Stop trying to prevent something that is just a part of life. Pain.
Your idea of wrong and right may be very different from someone else’s. What is wrong for you (from your partner) may be perfectly right for someone else. What’s more, if someone consistently does you wrong and you maintain relationship with them (baring child parent relationships) then you have basically told them that, what you SAY is wrong, is, in effect, not. Who will stick up for you if you will not stick up for yourself? Who will rid you of this person if not you?
While I believe that ‘working on yourself’ is a very important concept to understand, sometimes people are just selfish, hurtful and careless and the only thing you did to expose yourself to their shit was an act of love! Sometimes it’s not you that needs work. We can’t fear falling in love or taking a chance on someone.
“I’ll say this as a man, and I’m sure this applies to everyone, when you meet ‘the one’ you no longer want to mess around with anyone else – I don’t are if your the most died in the wool player – you will give it all up for THAT GIRL or THAT GUY.”
That is the “exception to the rule” fantasy that so many people have, and that so many people manipulate others with. As in, “if you were THAT girl, I’d be giving it all up for you.”
I don’t know how I even got it, but I was fantasizing about the-dude-who-would-suddenly-have-an-epiphany-about-what-real-love-is-after-meeting-me, from the time I was a pre-teen. It’s BS.
but it’s interesting. If that is what most men would think – if you were the one I’d behave better – doesn’t that release us? I’m not the one for him, but he’s just using me in the meantime, so sod him, I’m off.
It’s thinking a man’s The One is something we have to change into that’s part of the problem – that’s his business and it has nothing to do with me. He doesn’t define me.
Ahhhh, good point. If this is actually is the mentality of a man then the woman can leave knowing that the situation would never be right for her, nothing personal about it.
Excellent point, and I wish I read this 2 years ago.
I strongly disagree too Willybone. This is the classic emotionally unavailable excuse / fantasy and I have been guilty of it myself so I know it doesn’t just apply to men. |Not meeting ‘the one’ gives us an explanation of why we don’t want to commit and get vulnerable. And of course when we meet what we think is ‘the one’ it is another unavailable person who won’t commit and might treat us badly to boot.
I agree with that Polly.
Also, these playa guys think that they are “the one” for every woman that crosses their path!
I have known/known of a number of these types of men among my social circle/local pub etc… and what is always very obvious to me is that women are utterly invisible to these men unless she is sexually attractive to him and/or will fawn and flirt all over him like he is a sex god.
I was a very attractive young woman but I remember always feeling a little ‘ignored’ while in the same company as these guys; I found them ill-mannered, but I quickly realised that I wasn’t being ‘ignored’, I just wasn’t worth talking to because I plainly was not getting the great magnetic attraction vibe he appeared to hold for the rest of his worshippers.
I still come across and hear about at least two of these guys, who now hitting (and passing) fifty years old, are still single, still strutting around the pubs and clubs fully expecting to get laid as if they’re god’s gift to the female orgasm. They actually believe they have something good to offer while treating women like throw-away toys – and no doubt they are well practiced in the tricks of their trade, hitting on women who are now older, find themselves single and are desperate for love and affection but end up getting quickly shagged and quicker dumped by these amoral ass*oles. I really dislike them – perhaps you can tell!
I can completely relate to your post Fearless. I’m 42, divorced, good-looking, physically fit, and unfortunately had a few EUMs. Coming to this site has helped, but I’ve always wondered why the last AC I was with treated me the way he did. When we broke up, he tried to downplay his other relationships and I just wasn’t comfortable with it. After a few months, he was friendly again, and I assumed we could be friends. He tried for something more, and I let him know I wanted more than what he was offering…really trying to be true to my needs. Well, since then he outright ignores me when I walk by, will actually turn away, it’s sort of funny at times. I’m basically a non-entity. He even accused me of stalking him at one point. Interestingly, another woman I know who also had a relationship with him, fawns over him, parrots everything he says and does, basically carries the velvet pillow that his c*ck rests on while he struts around. All this to get back into good graces with him, which she finally has accomplished. They are now, “together,” albeit, not in the open as of yet. I know she’s trying to upgrade and maybe it will work for her. Problem is he is also hitting on other women, so I don’t think he’s changed. I think you have the key to the playa mentality: Unless you fawn over them, they will ignore you, regardless of how pretty, smart, or attractive you are.
“basically carries the velvet pillow that his c*ck rests on while he struts around”
*hollering*
By the way, I agree with the comments started because of Willybone’s post.
Glad you like that one Spinster. The visual in my head keeps me going 🙂
I agree that ‘the one’ idea is stupid and very few of us can actually find any evidence in our own lives to actually believe it – otherwise we would all still love the first ‘one’.
The point is that when you are aware of your intense feelings for someone, ask yourself this; if they felt the same would there be any complications? It’s that simple.
Well said, Will
willy
We may have seen examples where it seems to have happened. I think it’s more likely that the playa (man or woman) gets fed up with the lifestyle and gets serious with what they want out of life. So the next person seems to change them but they’d already changed themselves. What is true, though, is that it only happens with someone new, as I’ve said before. Not because the new person is better but because there’s no bad history. If I’d had a huge amount of power over someone and watched them humiliate themselves I’d find it difficult to see the potential of an equal partnership with them. And there is the danger, which happened with me, that should the relationship become more secure the “worm” or the underdog turns and ends up the dumper. It’s a hollow victory to know that you didn’t even want him, you just wanted to win over a jacked up dynamic.
Incidentally, I know plenty of people who are abstaining from sex for religious reasons or waited until they married. Including my sister and my brother. Last time I checked, they seemed sane.
I witnessed an AC meeting ‘the ONE’, deciding she should be his lifepartner, the first woman he felt like that about, and he still screwed around on her while they were figuring out whether it would work, decided he could do as he pleased until they had a label. He thought if they made a decision, if she decided to take a bet on him, he would magically start to treat her well. That didn’t bode well for their future, and it didn’t last.
That’s what my AC told me in the dying stages of our non-relationship/fantasy relationship. I was grieving privately, and over MSN, chatting about how I had to get rid of someone previously because they brought someone else out to our ‘date’ and I had felt offended.
So, only one date at a time? I think it is OK to see other people if there hasn’t been a discussion about a committed relationship. The truth of that statement p*ssed me off, but it was almost like he was washing his hands clean. As a reminder to BR readers, this is the man I rang up while I was in another city, only to catch them off on a booty call.
Just had enough. So sick of all of this…
Woah, Grace & Lia , your words really hit home..
‘They were emotionally unavailable men chasing after even more emotionally unavailable women who fulfilled their desire to chase after something in order to prove their worth to themselves. Nothing more, nothing less. ‘
This exactly describes my scenario. I was even more emotionally available but when I started coming round to idea of wanting a serious, healthy relationship with him , he went through my emails , found some stuff and ran a mile. The tables turned. We then went the other way and I was accepting crumbs from him and he had the ‘huge amount of power’ over me and watched me humiliate myself.
He came back last year and wanted to get back together – all on his terms but then couldn’t do it when I agreed to those terms … it isn’t equal. The problem is that I still do want him back…..
Interesting thought, Grace. I’ve always wondered why it seemed like a playa changed for someone seemingly no different than me or the one before me. I think you’re right in thinking that an equal partnership would happen with someone so willing to give him/herself freely, and so that person is dumped for a newer model, one with no history. I think it comes down to respect, and really if a playa changes, how can he/she respects someone who has allowed another to take advantage of them?
Lori
I’ve put a lot of thought into it having been on the merry-go-round for a long time, but I think most people just believe “I met the one” or “I wasn’t ready before”. They’re not putting a lot of thought into why they didn’t pick x or y. I don’t know if this will make you feel better or worse – they’re too busy getting on with their lives to analyse in depth what they think of their past conquests/dalliances.
But I don’t want you to care whether he respects you or not. He’s just one of 7 BILLION PEOPLE on the planet. I know that our lives can swing too easily on their opinion but he is just a human bean (as are we). It truly doesn’t matter what he thinks. It’s YOUR life, it’s what YOU think that matters. They’re not that bothered about what we think of them. Return the favour.
Thanks Grace for the kind reply. 🙂
Willy, how do you know why someone abstains from sex? It sounds like you are projecting your own view of sex onto others. And I am a guy also. What does that have to do with things?
jd (to willybone)
“It sounds like you are projecting your own view of sex onto others.”
I agree. willybone says there’s only one reason to have sex – because you want to. True perhaps – for men. But that’s not the whole of it. There’s also often plenty of reasons for a woman (and a man actually) NOT to have sex even when she does want to (it’s my experience that many men don’t seem to understand this concept – or perhaps they don’t want to acknowledge it because they can never think of any reason not to have sex! And they’d like it if women couldn’t think of any either!).
I have been asked more than once in my life by a man who wants to have sex with me: ‘but why not?’ Like I need to have a reason not to go the whole way/have sex with him. Last guy I went on a lunch date with was plainly looking for sex to happen and happen fast, and when I made it clear that I was not that woman he called me ‘frosty knickers’. This was nothing whatever to do with me wielding my power over him (willybone!), more like him trying to wield some power over me by making me feel duty bound to prove prove to him I wasn’t a prude – by letting him shag me. When I asked him why he would think I should be having sex with him he said, ‘because you might enjoy it’ (heard that one before!) like that would be reason enough. (I knew I would def. not enjoy having sex with a man I hardly knew; this didn’t seem to think that having met with him only one time was an issue!). Pfft. Cheerio!
Glad you agree, Fearless, but you seem to be projecting your experiences of how some men view sex onto all men.
jd
I freely admit I am ever so slightly jaded (!) – by my observations and experiences (personal and vicarious) of the world I’ve lived in for half a century; unless I am completely missing something I’d be a fool not to have noticed by now that men’s attitude to sex is very different from my own.
This post couldn’t have come at a better time. I have been having sex with a man I used to have sex with 5 years ago, but 5 years ago I desperately wanted him. Now I have been doing it because after getting out of a long relationship and avoiding dating, I wanted to fulfill my needs without investing anything and potentially getting hurt. However, I find myself wanting to experience sex with love again. I have been contemplating trying to upgrade this man to something more, but now I realize I just need to stop sleeping with him altogether.
I realized trying to fill a void or just fulfill needs with casual sex doesnt really work for me. Casual sex is just lacking…. Sex with love is so much better. It’s something I want to feel again as well.
Definitely. I mostly miss the comfortable feeling you can only get with someone you want to lay in bed with after. It seems now I can’t get out of there fast enough. Any small talk or cuddling is something that makes me feel uneasy because I feel like if I reveal a tender side of myself, I will be taken advantage of. I try to be indifferent about men, but my true nature is not like that. Yet, I’m still too afraid to date.
Tinkerbell, I done the same thing for four years. I even thought why I cannot carry on shagging AC and the same time looking for the right man…BUT Natalie’s wonderful response to me was, that he was using me like unpaid hooker, and no way, I could meet a new guy, when I am “under AC”!!! I loved her comment, it was such an eyes opener!!! I have to be free from AC first, work on myself and after when I am ready to meet someone new…Plenty of nice men around, we just need to see beyond our ACs! I was in love before with a man who loved me back and it was wonderful feeling, making love, not just having a shag, sex or whaterver…
I used sex as a back door in hopes to get a relationship with my ex-AC and it backfired on me. All it was was penis in vagina. I learned a hard lesson on this one but one I will always remember.
“If you’re enjoying your booty call and want nothing more – rock on”
I guess a causal relationship is a booty call dressed up with dinner, shows, gifts etc.
I truly thought I would be happy in a casual relationship, but how can you be?
Even in this situation I had expectations which he failed to deliver. No matter how low you go or set your expectations you can only gurantee disappointment because they can always go lower than you.
I remember seeing the movie ‘Friends With Benefits’ and leaving the cinema angry. Angry that of course it would have such a hollywood ending.
The male friend I was with agreed with the ending which sent me off into a tirade that it was complete and utter bullshit and almost no one ever gets the ending they want because they started putting themselves in a lowly position, where in real life would continue downwards not upwards where you live happily ever after. Should have known better than to see the film.
And I remember the hype surrounding ‘Pretty Woman’ when it was first released. I also hated it when I saw it and thought it unrealistic etc.
Shame when it came to my own situation I couldn’t see how unrealistic it was it cetainly wouldn’t make a happy ending hollywood film.
“…you deserve better than putting yourself on the street corner of someone’s life”. Oh so very true… funny you referred to the pizza analogy – I used that one once…. he didn’t get it. Surprised NOT!
This hits so close to home it hurts. I have been sleeping with a married man (I am married too) for a year and a half. I have been trying get out of the realtionship but can’t bear how bad it feels when I do. I feel like the unpaid hooker. My husband is unable to have sex with me because of a physical disease, and this man was more than happy to step in. Now, I have given up every value I have to be with him once a week for sex. I feel so pathetic and need to break it off but cannot bear to face life without him.
oh, georgia-
ok, i’m probably out of my depth here, but it sounds like you have two problems:
1- the loss of intimacy/sex with your husband and your legitimate need to have that in your life
2- the fact that the affair you’re in has devalued you.
i don’t know what you should do about 1, but it sounds like the answer isn’t 2.
as far as 2 goes – if you don’t find the courage to break it off, probably by forgiving yourself right now that you did it and start rebuilding your value of yourself….i can’t believe i’m going to say this….something ungoverned by you is likely to happen to bring the affair to a halt. which may include your husband finding out.
and it sounds like the OM is an ass – yeah, you’re cheating, but so is he, and … ok, i’m really sorry for saying this … his wife probably has no trouble having sex and … sorrysorrysorry … he’s probably screwing her too.
ew. forgive yourself NOW. and end it. and go buy The Rabbit. no, buy The Rabbit first, then end it. i’m actually serious. replace the sexual feeling you get with him with another one. it will make it easier to go cold turkey on the affair. its not feeding you, its hurting you.
Thank you to everyone fo your support. I have been reading this blog for months trying to find the support to end this. I know it will destroy me in the end and my family, especially because my husband found out about it once. I did end it for 6 months but his best friend died (who happened to be my next door neighbor) and in our grief we reuinted. Now I am taking crumbs from him and relying on him for the emotinal and physical support he can’t give me. On top of it, this is his third marriage to a much younger girl. Why would I think I was special?
Georgia,
Been there, hon. You have a special case considering your husband. But the result is the same, sounds like. You have to put yourself (& your marriage) first, esp you. It’s likely your married man will not leave his relationship, if that’s what you want. I would encourage you to end it before you are so involved it destroys you and your marriage.
Get out of your marriage if you want to, but in the end, do what’s right for YOU. I know what it feels like to think you can’t live with out this person, but he is just a man. Your situation may make him seem like a knight in shining armor, my MM did to me, but he’s just having his cake and eating it too.
I went through it, it’s almost destroyed my life and my family’s. Hang in there and believe in yourself, you’re worth more. And the longer it goes on, the more difficult it will be to pry yourself from him, and more likely it will be you’ll do anything just to be with him, as Nat’s described here.
Hugs
Hi Georgia,
I’ve been there too. It is incredibly hard to be the one that ends it but much better to be the one in control of this. Look at all the likely alternatives if you don’t -1. it carries on and you get more and more miserable, 2. other people find out and you lose the control and lots more people get hurt, 3. he ends it or starts an affair with someone else. I opted to wait for number 3 and it bloody hurt. I wish I had just ended it. But I’m grateful now that it is over and no-one found out.
Georgia, I have been there too. Dysfunctional marriage on both parts, but he stated clearly he would never leave his wife. I was married too and initially had no problem with that. I went for it and let myself being used by him, accepted his behaviour, because to me it was more than just being occasionally laid. Us, women, tend to fall in love, somehow, I think, we are not cut up for casual things. Most of us will always fall in love. And if you have problems in your marriage it is so much more difficult to break up with the lover. If I knew back then what I know now, I would have not hesitated and would have broken it off when there was still time. In the end I found out he was cheating on me with a mutual friend – 25 year old girl, while he still sleept with me (and his wife of course). And my husband found out about us too and this all … hurting him, being hurt by the lover, losing a friend, and the general break up and disappointment … this all was so difficult to swallow and get over …
In situations like this you have to find some strength within you, forgive yourself, dump him and restructure your life. Maybe even divorce in case there is no chance to revive your marriage. Cause staying unhappily married will always lead you to someone else’s arms. But it is all easiear said than done, I know.
Again, been there. As everything, in the end, it was an experience that I survived and made me stronger. I am finally able to say what I want now. Certainly not that again 🙂 You take your time, get ready and leave him. You don’t need to feel pathetic, you certainly can live without him. You can do it.
Take care. 🙂
PS: to Natalie … great article as always 🙂 Best wishes.
I think this was the hardest post of yours to read yet. I never thought I’d be one of those girls, but I became her for 6 months.
I backed off when I realized it wasn’t going anywhere and when there was someone else in the picture and I didn’t think I should have to compete for attention.
As soon as I did that he turned it on again with tales of how much he wanted to see me and how great we could be together and somehow he hit the reset button for another 3 months. It ended one night when he decided to “show me he didn’t actually care for me” by being agressive and abusive. He told me that I forced him to do that because of my “confusion” about what we were. So essentially telling me he abused me because I got the wrong idea because I believed his lies….
*sigh*
Never again….at lease I’ve started reading your articles and hope to smarten the eff up next time I meet some a-hole like this again….
Here’s a good one for you ladies. Many of you know I’m a gay women. I was dating a professional dominatrix, who also had a GF in another city. I agreed to this most stupid relationship because she was the most fun person I’d ever met. Professional sex workers can be full of surprises and excitement.
I was ruled by my dick and I don’t even have one. I like this quote from Nat’s post:
Hard as it may be to hear, if you allow yourself to be someone’s sexual plaything and you actually want more and you are being emotionally impacted, it’s actually like being an unpaid hooker.
So the best part is I ended up being an unpaid hoe to a hoe!
There’s nothing casual about casual sex, sooner or later someone gets hurt. Been There Done That, don’t wish to do it again.
Darn. And here I’m still been waiting for Julia Roberts to sweep me off my feet. 🙂 Ah, the angst of a rich and handsome young man when it comes to finding a date or that “special someone” can never be overstated!
Seriously, I enjoyed your article (and many of the funny turns of phrases!).
How often, do you think, that short-term flings/casual sex happen with people who have high self-esteem? As you wrote, “a ‘casual relationship’ is an oxymoron.”
I expect flings and casual sex happen amongst high-esteem-people too. Sex is fun and people still want to have it even if a full-on relationship isn’t possible or desirable at the time. My guess is the main difference is that high-self-esteem people understand upfront that a fling is a fling, and they don’t try to get other needs met from it.
Not that I would know from experience!
probably once. twice max. after that, someone starts to have feelings, or starts to feel trodden upon.
this is one of my favorite posts that you’ve done…superb! not my life situation whatsoever, but superb reading.
“That’s not to say that it would be better for cash to be left on the table, but when you recognise that you’re an unpaid hooker or escort, instead of feeling outraged and then committing yourself to a vocation of making them see that you’re worth more, you should be outraged and flush them out of your life.”
Love it Nat!! So very, very true. Some of these guys even have the stones to basically say, “Ahhh, well my wang and I showed up. You should be grateful!” Sit. Down. Son.
To stick with the theme here, I personally cringed (and cringed) through the episode of Secret Diary Of A Call Girl when Bambi ended up married to what was clearly a very troubled young man with a sizeable trust fund and it was all, “She’s MARRIED!” Oy, just oy. (Sort of related: Why are (99% of their clients very, very good looking? For serious. Come. On. Now.) If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that it’s very rare for good to come out of a bad situation and the only way to turn things in the right direction is to extracate yourself completely out of said sh*tty situation. “Start as you mean to go.” indeed!
“Cobwebs in my pants”: – ha ha ha heh – oh, – wait – that’s me! Sniff, waaaaannnh!
I wish I could do something about the sex thing. It’s been two years since I had actual naked physical contact, and that with the ex-AC. How to be so long celibate and unmarried without feeling like a schoolmarmish spinster old maid? Orchestrate some high-self-esteem booty rockin of the casual kind for myself? I often ask myself this but I never do actually set out to go get me some.
Yes, that´s me too! And it should be so easy to get laid – any guy would oblige for some casualness – but I can´t seem to get myself to do that either.
What I´ve found works for me is this: I tell myself “yeah it would be nice to have sex again. But what would it be like to get naked before that future faking mindfucking narcissistic EUM AC, a self satisfied smirk on his face?” I find I get so angry it´s like a cold shower for my libido.
I’m with you on that Lilia!
I second that Lilia!
I’m going to a movie on Saturday with a nice man who is almost ten years my junior. We met at a coffee shop where we were both bent over stacks of notes; then met for a real sit down coffee later. I feel like he is a boy – 29 yr old grad student – though a smart one, and very sweet. He so far has treated me with enthusiasm and even the blushing awkwardness that suggests he thinks it’s a lucky thing to be out with me. He’s not an alpha, pushy type.
I feel like I have the upper hand (is that just because I don’t know how to take someone being so sweet?) and am potentially the bigger bitch, the more cunning one, the more experienced person in many ways. Because he so clearly likes me it feels like THIS is an opportunity to have sex, but I think about it and I just sigh: I don’t enjoy feeling so much older than a guy. Makes me feel like his mom.
I do think this is how a lot of guys (not all, jd) expect to be with the sweet, young things they get involved with – they’re more experienced, they’re older, and they know they can milk the other person’s infatuation for a short or long while. They aren’t “in love” with these women, they just see how convenient it is.
Anyway, so it’s not just the smirky EUMs out there that are available, there are plenty of dudes out there who would probably be respectful and kind in a sexual set-up but it’s like one of the other readers said: I’d immediately start thinking how much I want to love the person I’m with.
Mag
Don’t be deceived by the boyishness. I’m sure there is many a woman or man who’s overestimated the innocence of their younger partner, and overestimated their own power *cough*.
By all means go on the date but 29 is still a man. There’s no need to cut him any slack and in no way are you old enough to be his mother.
Ah, I dream of an age difference of less than ten years!
I agree with fearless willybone. There IS no *the one* to a true player. I know. My xAC was the biggest in town. He fell in love with me when we were first together 20 yrs ago & he fell hard. I was definately his *the one*. This was obvious by a number of indicators (too keep it short I wont elaborate). I ended it on account of his (at the time) binge drinking problem. I left the door SLIGHTLY ajar saying ‘go to rehab & if you get 1 yr sober & I’m still single by then we can reassess’. I suspected infidelity on his part toward the very end but had no proof & the binge drinking was sufficient enough for me to end it anyway. Fast forward. He returned 17 yrs later, tracking me down from interstate & making numerous trips to see me (always at his expense). He came within a bee’s dick of moving to my state to be with me but I put a stop to it on account of him disappearing for hours one night whilst drunk. This time I also found direct evidence of infidelity which was going on whilst he was interstate. Not to mention that the night he disappeared drunk he went to brothers place & suggested they go get some ‘whores’ (meaning prostitutes – a nasty previously non existent habit he’d picked up during his 17 absence).
These men are INCAPABLE of love because they don’t KNOW what love is. They are narcissistic in the extreme. The ONLY person they are concerned with is THEMSELVES. They will NEVER *change* for *the one* because the problem does not lie with the women unfortunate enough to get caught up in their web of countless deceptions. The problem lies fairly & squarely with THEM.
Our only part in it is being a tad nieve & often vulnerable when they first come along meaning we let our guard down where otherwise we would not.
AC’s do NOT change for ANYONE. When we women realise this we are set free to be available for the real deal instead of the mere illusion, smoke & mirrors offered by such ‘love frauds’. 🙂
Well said, Teachable!
Between this article and the “Relationship Slot Machine” the other day, you’ve completely nailed my last (short-term, thank GOD) relationship.
Thank you for your always insightful and wise words. It’s like you crawl inside my skin and see things the way I wish I could see them when I’m in the moment. I appreciate you.
PS Of course in the intervening 17 yr period I had completely forgotten suspecting he had been unfaithful toward the very end the first time around. This time though, I got the whole story. He has slept with 60+ women & in addition to having substance abuse issues (supposed sorted when he returned but actually not), he is also a chronic sex addict. Charming. Not. FLUSH!!!!!
60+ women. That’s scary & dangerous. My X-AC, Narcissist, Sadist, SexAddict, Player has a ‘Prior’ woman who announced in writing on Facebook on June 11, 2011 that she is HIV+. (Yes, I was FB stalking – but it is amazing & shocking what you can find out).
So my comment point here is: We should all be Very Careful with any and all sex. And I know for a fact that many of these EuMEN are so selfish that they …prefer, demand, expect casual sex without CONDOMS.
I have tested and am Negative on the HIV. I’ve also been NO CONTACT for months, and am consistently moving on with my LIFE.
It’s interesting that so many of these men do refuse to wear condoms. I was with a AC narcissist for only a few months, and he never wanted to wear condoms. Found out he had 1 child of about 3 years, and another girl before me who became pregnant and then aborted because he didn’t want to help her. To top it off, this piece of work is employed in an all-girls school and is adored by soooo many women. He brags of his conquests. It’s disgusting. FLUSH!!!
You’re so right. Once a booty call always a booty call. The last guy I was with I slept with on the first date and no matter what I did he never saw me as anything else. Now I’ve got the cobwebs problem you speak of – celibate for a year and a half, waiting for the right guy. It’s lonely but I don’t want to make the same mistakes. I’m working on the relationship with myself first. I realized how much I did buy into the fantasy and I’ve had some hard lessons but finally think I’m getting a handle on reality.
I agree, Feast to Famine (like your name too!) I too slept immediately with the last guy I was with the first time, and I don’t think he’ll ever see me as more than a booty call ever again. I’m having trouble with the devalue and discard phase, but it really helps to read posts here and realize I am not alone and that my situation (of my own creation) is not unique. Good luck with your future!
Jesus. I don’t understand why women are so desperate for sex and validation sometimes! Like really, you need it THAT bad?! At the cost of your self esteem, morals, beliefs, values…it’s not worth waiting it out for something worth while to come around? Even if you just want to have “fun” and not be committed, can’t you wait it out for someone who will at least show you some respect, have we become SO desperate that will settle for pretty well ANYTHING on offer just bc we don’t want to be alone, without sex, without validation? Ladies! Come on. Waiting it out fo something worthwhile will NOT kill you! Sex is nice, but it’s not worth throwing you’re self esteem and values right out the window! I’m clearly a rare breed. Wow.
I think that once someone reaches a certain place in their life they will come to realize all that you have just said is true. But you also have to remember that if someone is willing to give up their bodies in exchange for instant (albeit temporary) gratification, they probably don’t have much self-esteem to protect in the first place (at least not in that moment). If someone doesn’t know the value that they possess within themselves then they will give it to someone who doesn’t know it either. I think that’s what happens for those who engage in this behavior.
For some women and men, they don’t see the point in waiting for something worth while to come around because they have yet to learn what that is, how to recognize it when it comes, or that it even exists for that matter.
Nicely said.
No one is perfect. This may not be a problem you have, but do you have no problems? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Tyla is right!
We have put ourselves in many self defeating situations! No one forced us to get involved or continue with these types- for most of us the red flags were blaring and we choose to ignore. There are no victims here!
The good news is, is that when we recognize and learn these behaviors are unhealthy, we implement change! Time to value ourselves and put ourselves first!
amen tyla…these men do these things because they can get away with it because sooooo many women are accepting this crazy behavior
Casual relationships? Not possible. I met a man who was honest up front, said, “I see others, I assume you do too.” I thought I could handle it, found I couldn’t, and then realized he was seeing another person at the gym. I realized I wanted more, but felt guilty with the FWB thing, uncomfortable too. When I tried to talk to him about it, he became defensive, angry, said, “She means nothing to me,” blah blah. He stormed out, but then months later, tried hitting on me again. This time I refused him, but hoped we could be friends. He used our “friendship” for awhile, got some of his ego-stroking needs met, then promptly dumped me when I called him out on a few things he was saying to try and get into my pants. Now I’m completely ignored when he sees me, treats me like a non-entity. I realize now the FWB route is not the way to go, I shouldn’t have even given him a second glance at the rate he wanted to move. Thanks to this site, I’m feeling a lot better about things.
WOW!!!!! This article hits home more than I can even tell you. I have mentioned this on here before, but i think that talking about it is really helpful. I did this very thing. Literally.
3 years ago, I was coming out of an abusive common law marrige. We had two children. I was staying home to be with them, he had a great job. But we were unable to make ends meet. He decided that I should start escorting. I did not want too, however, I was messed up, and too scared to stand up too him, for fear of being hurt. I started escorting on weekends and evenings. It was horrible. absolutley horrible. but he made me believe that it was or only way out.
This, ladies and gentlemen, is how I met my AC. He was 6 months out of a 5 year relationship, and “rented” me for an hour. Long story short, over the next couple of weeks, I broke it off with my “husband”, got out of escorting and we saw each other a few more times, and decided to give a relationship a try.
Fast forward to now. Im sitting here, after 3 attempts at NC, going back to him 4 times, 2 terminated pregnancies both of which he couldnt bother to attend, 1 miscarrige, telling me that we were going to get our own place, live together, that he loved me, his 3 week vacation abroad without me, finding hair that was not mine in his bed, three times. and the latest, last wednesday after 2 months of nc and changing all my contact info, going out of his way to talk to a friend of mine on facebook ( i dont have facebook or twitter) to get my contact info. He contacted me, told me how awesome I was. that he missed me. that he loved me but didnt know in what context, and panics with the thought that i might leave his life. he told me that he was having a hard time in life. and really needed me to be a friend. it wasnt until I asked him point blank, that he told me that he was “spending time with someone, for about a month”. Two nights ago, he texted me, we talked a bit. He then started telling me how beautiful, and sexy, and gorgeous i was, then started Sexting me. I fell for it, because in some sick way, I equate him wanting me sexually, to him just wanting me. period. He told me that he believed that we would “make love again one day, and that he really wanted to share that with me again.”
After my habitual excitment the next day, I realized today, I had just become the other woman, the fallback girl,…
He told me that he believed that we would “make love again one day, and that he really wanted to share that with me again.”
HSN – 90% of us have had that text. I had it (from a MM). It’s bollocks, stop overvaluing it. Yes you made a mistake but don’t go down the well-worn path of “Oh WOE, I made a mistake, I am therefore committed to this destructive course of action cos I’m crap”. I’m sorry, but I am taking that excuse away from you. It. was. texts. They cost nothing to send and don’t take much time either. I’m sure most of us have had these hot and heavy texts to which we attach so much significance while – cooking our dinners, giving ourselves a pedicure, or watching tv. Shrug it off.
This man is not your friend. He is a ginormous user and a tosser. Two abortions and a miscarriage? It’s too much.
As the good Lord said “Daughters of Jerusalem … weep for yourselves and for your children”.
Look at what you lost, mourn it, get professional help if you need to. Step away from further destruction.
HSN-
if i may…please go get counseling. i don’t think anyone, myself included, can repair a severely damaged sense of self without help. you can’t do this alone. you still see yourself as an escort, its too easy for you to equate yourself with sex and to equate sex with something more than sex.
please see that this guy is nothing more than the ultimate booty call, because that’s how he views this situation with you. have to decide that you are NOT that in order to maintain NC. again, you can’t do it alone.
grace is right. its too much, way, way, way too much. this guy is a piece of shit, except you’re the one spending yourself on him instead of the other way around. go talk to somebody professional, qualified, someone you can trust. someone safe.
Grace and CC,
You ladies are right. He is a piece of shit. I have been seeing therapists and counselors for years. It just gets to the point where you start talking in circles.
My comment ran out room, but at the end I was explaing that I couldnt believe how quickly the conversation with him went from “friendly” to all of a sudden I was the “other woman and option.” but really, its all Ive ever been, even when we were together, because he always had a harem. So if hes doing this with me now, who was he doing it with while him and I were together? Im starting to see whats going on. I really am. I know that NC is THE BEST THING FOR ME TO DO! and ive done it twice before. The last time even changing all my contact info. I moved a 2 hour ferry ride away. I dont have facebook or twitter. I changed my email. my phone number. but he managed to find one of my friends on facebook, and get my contact info from her. write to me, and “forget” to tell me that hes seeing someone new, until I asked point blank, after telling me, that he missed me, loved me, thought about us getting back together, wants to hold me again. I FALL FOR HIS CRAP EVERYTIME. I dont know what it is. Maybe that im so lonely that i accept the crumbs wholeheartedly. Im not a stupid woman. I went to university. I hold a degree in the medical field. So why is this so damn difficult for me?
Thanks for keeping me strong as possible right now ladies. Im here all the time, reading Nats wonderful posts, and all your support helps me get through the day.
HSN
OK, HSN, let the third time be the charm. Believe in yourself. Believe that things can get better. Maybe you don’t know right now how they will get better, or even what “better” means, but you will create this for yourself as you move forward.
Full NC all the way with this guy. Throw your full weight into the decision. Trust the process; it produces results.
“he believed that we would “make love again one day, and that he really wanted to share that with me again.”
Ugh, I heard a version of this too. Something like “of course we’ll have sex again, it’s just too soon”. HSN, he’s getting an ego boost out of these conversations, out of feeling like he can sleep with you again whenever he feels like it. Stop building up this ass**** and harming yourself at the same time. If this already horrible history with this man isn’t enough for you to cut him off, what is it going to take? Really, what else would this man have to say or do before you’ll have finally had enough?
You know, I have been through this; it’s been heart breaking for 5 years. To my credit (& my eternal thanks to a good g/f), I did at moments have dignity and said no, and put the shoe on the other foot and had him chasing me, but all in all I was a doormat for a man that I know once loved me, but after I began to be at his beck and call, he eventually lost interest. I’m still reeling.
I think we shouldn’t be so hard on ourselves, though, we just didn’t know. But we should forever thank Nat and BR for educating us and just making it so danged plain as the nose on our faces the mistakes we’ve made or are about to make! We as women are givers and we fall into the trap over and over and over, on many different levels. But the most painful is when we fall in love, and are taken advantage of.
Men will always use women; it’s up to us to believe in ourselves and tell those men who do to go to hell!
thank you for staing this so bluntly. I personally have not had a casual relationship in probably 15 years but another aspect that no one talks about is how-now that so MANY people agree or settle for fwb or super casual sex….it makes it harder to find men who are not on some level affected by that. I was so relieved to meet this last man because he was the first person I had met in ages who had zero interest in getting laid immediately….it was so nice to meet someone romantic and grounded for a change. Casual relationships as the junk food drive in of intimacy: cheap and bad for you.
It was brought to my attention that a man posted on his FB page “I (sexual expletive) on the first date” and the BW were lining up with giggles and offers to meet him for coffee. Many women seem to have lowered themselves to the point that men don’t even have to beat around the bush anymore and they complain later that men don’t treat them well. This also casts a bad reflection on all women because many men expect all women to respond the same to these blatant propositions and if they don’t they are treated like prudes (for what? having self respect?) Call me old fashioned, but are there men out there who still like to “court” a lady and women that actually behave like “ladies”?
So funny that you should bring this up, I’m literally on the phone right now with someone talking about this very thing (probably because I just made him read Natalie’s post). Oddly enough, it sounds as though men who were raised with integrity will know what to do with a woman who is willing to be treated as an object: send her on her merry little way to someone who is willing and able to treat her that way. It won’t matter what she has to offer if he knows that he has more to offer a woman than just sex, but he’ll find someone who will appreciate those things. A gentleman will be a gentleman regardless of his surroundings if that’s who he truly is. The same can be said for ladies who respect themselves enough not to be treated as anything less than excellent: they won’t be disrespected or used as sex objects either.
But I seriously hope that whoever posted that FB message was just kidding around, as well as those who responded. If not, we really are in trouble…
On a happy note. Pretty Woman is one of my all time favs. I use it in my classes. My 20-somethings don’t see the connection between Cinderella and Pretty Woman. I have to spell it out. Then they are like duh. Natalie I totally loved your synthesis of Pretty Woman, may I borrow it? Roy Orbison is the best rrrrgh.http://youtu.be/qzaCLPgDgZo http://youtu.be/qzaCLPgDgZo . In case my links don’t work just google Roy Orbison-Pretty Woman. I so wish life worked like what is portrayed in fairy tales and hollywood movies.
I agree Tuplia, I was startled to discover there’s no such thing as Pretty Woman or Cinderella as well as Santa and the Easter Bunny. No way in hell, I was going to pay to see Friends with B’s. It’s been really difficult to separate fantasy from reality. Natalie, although I’m only 50 pages into your new book, it has helped me immensely. I haven’t cyber-stalked him and I’ve flipped into reality focusing on how much I existed in a dreamer fantasy mode.
Ahh “Pretty Woman walking down the street, Pretty Woman who I hope to meet”…arrrgh. The fantasy is so uncomfortably comforting.
I was at a down point tonight until I read BR. It was a beautiful spring day and the semester is ending. I forced myself to fire up the BBQ, eat something, and listen to Marley. Thank you Natalie and ladies. Richard Gere and/or Johnny Dep and/or the exMM isn’t going to show up on my doorstep. Nor do I want them to. I’m starting to get it. Thank you for this post Natalie, it really helped me this evening. You are so brilliant.
I’m still getting over my first, and so God help me LAST ever “casual relationship”. It’s hard some days, I can’t help thinking about him and feeling incredibly low, depressed, and confused. I know I have self-esteem issues, self-loathing is pretty much my state of being 99% of the time. I know why I stayed and ignored one red flag after another. It’s about validation. Because how much more validating could it be than to be the exception? If he commits to me I must be pretty special! I must really mean something and matter to him. So I dealt with all this bullsh*t, pain and misery because I thought the validation would be that much greater, and I’d finally stop hating myself. Also, it’s about loneliness. When you’re starving, crumbs are better than nothing. It’s really sad, but it’s true.
Now, I’m just trying to work on myself and my issues, but it’s still hard, because these thought patterns have been so ingrained. I always seem to fall back into self-loathing…
This post is a great reminder for me. Thank you, Natalie.
I got myself into a casual arrangement about 2 and a half year ago. My intention initially wasn’t to be upgraded. To be honest, I didn’t know what I wanted with him. We were just physically attracted to each other. I put myself into the situation to cover up my issues as I was dealing with an ex-AC. I didn’t know at the time but in the end it was obvious that I left an AC only to jump into sex with an EUM. I eventually developed feelings for him even though we only saw each other occasionally (we live in different cities). Then I realized I wanted more than just sex while he was just enjoying the fringe benefits. With the help of this website as well as a bunch of self-growth and self-love I’ve started doing a year ago, I finally got the strength to leave the sexual encounter behind. It has been only 3 months. Although I still think of him at times, I know I’m at a much better place.
Seriously, being an FWB is a waste of time and energy. I carried on with a friend for 10 months doing this and I always felt that the lines were clearly drawn as to what the “relationship” would be and what the terms and limits were – sounds like a ridiculous contract! 🙂 Anyway, I was the EUW at that time and while I liked the guy, I didn’t realize the havoc I was playing with his emotions. Everytime we were going to dinner, movies, or whatever and then having our little bed soirees, I would feel physically satisfied and emotionally empty. Somewhere along the line, I was sending mixed signals to him and he eventually told me he wanted a serious relationship and that he was in love with me. When he told me that, it sent me into a serious panic and I fled as fast and as far as I could. Later on, he told me how angry he was at my abandoning him and that he felt I played him for the fool. I was a little stunned by this and remarked that I thought it was crystal clear what my intentions were and that there was no commitment. He told me I was cold-blooded and that I had sent mixed signals the whole time and maybe I should think about why I run from emotionally stable men. That was a shock for me but being only 23 it didn’t really hit home what he meant. Now at the age of 31 and having had 2 crazy relationships and being an EUW with a few other men, I get it now. It took me a long time to understand what he meant, but what did it for me was being in therapy and having an honest look at myself and my life. I can honestly say now I live a better life than I did then. It’s never too late to create change if you are open and willing to do it.
Thank you so much for this. I’m just finishing up college with some incredibly painful experiences behind me going along with this whole “hookup culture” – I can’t believe how deluded I’ve been! Not only about what I want (I sort of knew I was lying to myself about that).. but how I COME OFF – it finally hit me how men actually view that kind of behavior.
Then again that’s also conventional wisdom/”common sense”… again, part of me must have known this. Why did I have to learn it the hard way? Maybe it’s just a projection of my own focus on sex and emotional unavailability.
In any case, I had myself completely convinced that casual sex was the way to go for such a long time… how disconnected from myself and reality.
After my most recent fling, I’m facing it all and have decided to just completely stop. It will only benefit my life. I don’t think I “ruined” my chances with the guy; I like to think if it’s the right person it won’t matter so much, but just as a matter of being respected… not having firm boundaries must generally communicate a lack of self-worth.
Oh and I have herpes, but I have no one to blame but myself – I acted like someone with absolutely no respect for herself. Please be careful ladies, I was so focused on the emotional implications (which were bad enough) that I got blindsided with an incurable STD on top of that.
Great post. I too have had casual relationships, but not intentionally, of course they were EU and I got hurt. I relized I cannot do them. In fact, I got an offer for just that last week. A man emailed me to go for dinner (that night) I thought, no way, not with no notice and besides I’m in a relationship now, but very unsure of it. Even still, I thought hell no. I told him I was busy, then he emailed for the next night. I had just had what appeared to be a break up and was in no spirit for this and besides he had my # and didn;t call. Ok, I tell him I don’t check my emails on weekend, how about meeting next week. I never heard from him. So, becasue I saw him through a work event, I emailed him and asked why I didn’t hear from him and he told me he was interested in having an intimate connection and possible dating, but since he it didn’t work tout hat weekend, he got discouraged and lost inspiration. OMG. I thought him to be very loose sexually, but what a joke! I don’t feel tempted at all by this one, but it is too bad, becasue I thought we had alot in common, spirituality, our jobs, he’s into authentic communication etc. No wonder I end up with EUM. This one is too, but at least upfront about it.
Chloe,
This guy is a complete ass!
My point is, how do we know when we are being used for sex? Most guys are not upfront about it and we think a relationship is happening but NOT for them. The fellow I am seeing now, or re-seeing told me in his last relationship the girl said to him after 3 months “we’re doing pretty good”. He thought very differently and did not agree, but didn’t make this very clear to her and he kept sleeping with her for 9 more months. I said, you were stringing her along. He agreed, although it wasn’t easy for him either as he tried to break up with her (on again/ off again) and it took a year. I am wondering if he is doing the same thing with me, he says he is not, but I’m not sure.
and I’ve had this happen too many times where I have thought because they want sex it must mean they want a relationship with me. My last ex made that very clear to me!
chloe-
we all have to make judgments about the character of the other person. nobody wants to feel duped or stupid, and it can be very hard to see what’s really going on from inside a situation.
we’ve all walked down the street, passed by a couple, and in one glance could read their entire relationship: whether they were happy; whether each really cared about the other; whether there was mutual respect; whether one was stringing the other along. its so shocking that we can see in others at a glance what we can barely see in our own lives after months, years of staring right at it.
i think that’s why natalie talks about maintaining boundaries and looking for the landmarks of a relationship. you say your guy’s ex had no idea she was being strung along and that he didn’t agree that things were “pretty good” after 3 months, but look at the fact pattern: was it a real relationship or were they just having sex (sounds like the latter)? then, how did she not realize it was screwed when he kept trying to break up with her? and does he keep trying to break up with you?
and what is this “it wasn’t easy for him either”? what was supposed to be easy, it was supposed to be easier that he was stringing her along? or that he was trying to leave… that’s pathetic.
reread the posts about landmarks of a relationship, and ones abot how you know when you’re being used for booty. that should help clarify.
Gad grief, if only I had read this two years ago when I was involved in this same messed up situation with a EUM. Since then, went on a sex sabbatical for over a year and rediscovered my personal worth, and have now wised up to a lot of bullshit being thrown my way. “Coughing up a shag” – very funny yet sadly profound words.
Tyler,
It’s not neccessarily of women being ‘so desperate’ as to put up with what we (later) find out about these AC’s, rather, typically they completely (willfully & deliberately) misrepresent WHO THEY ARE when they first come along. Do you seriously think that I for example would be remotely interested in a guy with active substance abuse issues, sex addiction (& the rest which turned out to include a gambling addiction to pokies & bi-polar disorder)? NOT IN A MILLION EFFIN YEARS I can assure you! BUT, xAC did roll up & say hey, ‘these are the issues I have on board, wanna take a chance on me?’ Oh no. Not even close! Instead it was ALL hidden & only came out when I ferreted out the info. As SOON as I realised it was a short sharp case, of ‘hit the road jack’ with my foot up his effed up arse! These men are VERY GOOD at what they do & can fool anyone to a point. So please don’t imagine the problem is always us women, because, often times, apart from being kind & compassioniate ppl who are genuinely shocked when we realise the facts, with due respect, frankly it is not.
Hi heart shaped noose,
Yr ex husband convincing you to start working as an escort is abominable! Seriously! You were probably at a very low point emotionally & financially due to the marriage break down when you fell for this garbage. PLEASE, if you havent gotten yourself out of that line of work do so ASAP! All such types of ‘work’ are highly damaging & you deserve SO MUCH more! I don’t care if you have to flip burgers or clean toilets for a living – just GET OUT! And piss that effwit you met through escorting off for good! You don’t want a guy who views women as objects to be bought & sold!! You have been royally screwed over in this situation & if your not doing so already, will benefit from therapy to help you recreate your life.
Hugs & all the best to you.
Hi Teachable,
Thanks first off for writing. I did get out of that line of work 3 years ago when I started dating my ex-AC who was one of my clients. Him and I have been on and off for 3 years now, and im finally beginning to realize that he is not capapble of giving me anything I want. I am in therapy and have been for a few years. Even before all this started, to deal with my already exisiting depression and anxiety issues. Im plugging away at it, and after 2 attepts at NC in the past, I know its the only way out. Hes with someone new! I have officially become a FBG, the other woman, and an option, in one fell swoop. grrrrr.
….b Be wary of that guy Chloe. He admits stringing his ex along for a whole 9 mths & to being DISHONEST with her at the three mth mark. HUGE yellow or even red flags there. I don’t think he has the capacity to be respectful as already stated by his own admission. As Maya Angelou says, ‘when someone shows you who they are, believe them, the FIRST time! 😉
Teachable – Thanks, I know, he doesn’t reveal his thoughts, and I have been on him about that. I ask if he cares about me. He says Yes, then when I ask to tell me, he won’t do it then, and as far as I’m concerned the time never comes (of course I am impatient). Since he wants to try again, I say, what will be different, his answer, we’ll see. A bit of a joke. I’m having a hard time as I’m visiting family (for my Bday) and it’s been the same BS, verbal abuse. I tell them they don’t accept me and my dad says but you keep coming back. How effed up is that? My own father is both an AC and EU. How sad for me, I have worked on them for years and now that i’m older I feel very vulnerable being alone (i’ve lived alone for 19 years), which is probably why I give this guy a chance, becasue I really don;t have anyone in my life who truly has my back, some friends yes, but they are busy with their families and lives. I realized on this trip how I keep getting sucked into the family BS and my part in it. I am truly embarrassed. Sorry for going on, didn’t mean to get into all this stuff.
chloe-
ok, you waved the red flag in front of me. i was holding back before but i can’t now.
” I ask if he cares about me. He says Yes, then when I ask to tell me, he won’t do it then, and as far as I’m concerned the time never comes (of course I am impatient). ”
look. i don’t want you to be alone, or lonely, or to feel vulnerable. but its really clear. this guy is at least EU, if not AC. teachable is right – yellow and red flags abound.
forget what i said above. ok, sure reread the posts on those topics. but this guy is an ass. do not wait around for anybody to tell you they care, or to give you the relationship you want. in fact, reread natalie’s posts about that. he may not be a terrible person, but he’s not offering you what you want *now*, yet you keep waiting and asking. and every time you do, it shows him that you’ll keep waiting and keep asking and keep giving him what he wants.
you’re not impatient, you’re not needy. you’re just in a relationshiT with an EU. you’re playing the one-armed bandit, which was just written about the other day: https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/its-time-to-stop-playing-the-relationship-slot-machine/
think about it chloe. you can do so much better.
Chloe,
I agree!. You should never have to ask someone how they feel about you. If you feel the need, it is time to get out!
“When you allow someone to treat you like dialalay.com or even textalay.com and arrange a shag with the ease of ordering a pizza, something is very wrong.” Yes yes yes! I only wish I could pin this.
I am the queen of the casual relationship. Aside from the older man I just had a blow out with, I was involved with a man last year that began as my marriage was ending. To be fair, he never future faked, and even told me it wasn’t exclusive. Thought this would be ok with me and that eventually he would love me and see how great we were. He was a good looking, fun, educated man. He started breaking plans, lying about some plans, not in a mean way, but I think to spare an awkward talk or something.we had a great time but then it was just done one day. He was gone. I didn’t get the flurry of memos he tried to send me for a few months, and looking back I can see that a conversation would have been best for me, it was too weird for him. so he just removed himself. I didn’t rant at him, but i did try reaching out to him for a few months here and there before i realized it was over. I know now that once consistancy is lost, calls are ignored , etc, its done, but at the time, I just didn’t want it to end . I ended up going straight to this older man for yet another humiliating casual relationship. I just hate being vulnerable and this seemed safe
katy-the conversation was too weird for him because he could care less and couldn’t be bothered. He only cared for himself, and left you out there. I’ve been there, and it’s hard when it happens like that. I’m still trying to get over that feeling of being “suddenly dumped,” but the warning signs were there before. Like you said with consistency. Stick with that thought. Hope you feel better soon.
The last date I went on (a second date), the woman was surprised when I let drop that I don’t just sleep around. She said she thought that’s what I was after. I was curious about this, so I asked her why she thought that. She said I thought you like to drink and fuck, and that I just “seem” like the type. But the thing is I also don’t really drink (about 2 beers average a mo.), and I haven’t had sex in over a year!
This sucks. I sometimes I feel like a dinosaur, it’s so hard to find anyone who wants a real relationship, they can’t even see me for who I am. I just look like another player to them.
uh……how old are you and where do you live?
heart shaped, Little One, RUN. NOW.
For your sanity, for your kids, for your life. It’s understandable how you could have found yourself in such a position after suffering years of abuse with your common law idiot. NO ONE is gonna rescue you-reread this frequently. It’s been awhile no doubt since you had an opportunity to meet you, the person buried under years of unspeakable maltreatment. That you even survived being “turned out” by your pimp-masquerading-as-your-SO tells me you DO have some good gut instincts regarding which john is relatively “safe” and who isn’t (or you’ve been damn lucky, woman!) Before you can begin to sort out how you fell in with The Pimp you need to put space both physically and emotionally between you, The Pimp and the “Knight In Shining Armor” guy who really isn’t. You are NOT a commodity to be purchased by the highest-or lowest-“bidder.” I can assure you it’s NOT going to “get better” by trading one AC for another. There are resources in the real world to help you; even small steps towards personal autonomy are steps in the right direction. Step 1: Either The Pimp gets out of the residence or YOU and the kids find your own place. This physical boundary represents the emergence of your own personal boundaries. Take a sabbatical from ANY relationships for the time being. And by all means get yourself into some professional counseling-no, you’re not “crazy,” just beat down. Who wouldn’t be?
Hugs, Grandma Nona
Awwww…
Thanks Grandma Nona…
I left my husband 3 years ago, and ran straight into the arms of the now ex-ac, client. My kids and I are living with family now, who know nothing of our old situation, I have moved a 2 hour ferry ride away from both the ex husband and the ex-ac. I feel very isolated, very alone, as I have no friends here. I deal wih depression and anxiety, for which I am on medication, and I do see a counselor. Im just tired. You know? Your right.,its been a very long time since I have seen the real me. I remember her. But I havent figured out yet how to get back to her. The ex-ac informed me last week that he is seeing someone else, but would like to continue sleeping with me. and the sick part of me has normalized that behaviour. My ex husband is getting remarried this weekend. So they are both moving on, with other people, and I am here. still. wondering when I will get it right.
Thanks for the hugs Nona. I can sure use ’em these days.
HSN
Gosh, this is so painfully true!
It’s films like Pretty Woman that are at fault (i know its JUST a film) but it does nothing for young women’s self esteem and for some people it’s their FAVOURITE film.
this is such fantasy, young women *myself included need to be educated better and more deeply how precious they are!
I have never been interested in casual sex. I was raised to believe that men would not value a woman that gave sex up too easily and also not to trust women (because they will steal your Good Man) so I had only platonic male friends until I was in my late twenties. What I learned from them is that even if they are in “relationship mode” they decide what sort of relationship they want to have with you within moments of meeting you; once you’ve been “party-categorized” they will never, ever change their mind. (Once casual always casual) And if you catch them when they’re in a casual mindset, you will NEVER get water from that rock – they’ve shut their feelings off long before you came along… nothing personal! (Bears repeating: once casual always casual)
What scares me about our culture is that young girls are being taught by society and the media that sexually they are just like men – they want it like men and that sex should be uncomplicated and casual – if they have feelings about it they’re terribly uncool. This is true of some women (we all know a samantha) but the other 90% are going to have to find out the hard way that we really DO get attached to most of the people that we sleep with… and that’s just the way it is. And since we go into casual relationships with no regard for the future, this can only be the recipe for disaster. Imagine the self esteem of a young girl that goes into casual relationship after casual relationship thinking “he will see how wonderful I am and fall in love with me”… arg!!!… and that’s if she had the good fortune to fall only on good guys that are just “dating alot of people”…
We must start teaching our girls that when a man says that he doesn’t want a relationship, he really means that I AM NOT AT A PLACE IN MY LIFE WHERE I CAN FALL IN LOVE WITH ANYONE NO MATTER HOW WONDERFUL – PERIOD.
Acceptance,
I for example, never have sex in the first few dates with guys who I want to have a relationship with! They waited at least two months before we get intimate. Still it didnt “save” me from dealing with AC:-( You never really know, because in the beginning they behaved like real gentlemen and six months later started to show real colours.
LOL, and why do you think I’M here?! My assclown actually loved me truly, madly, deeply… but his cold feet kept giving him brain freeze… so i ended up engaged to the Little Mindf*ck-Engine That Couldn’t.
AC are everywhere (something in the water?) and we can’t protect ourselves unless we go into every relationship with our eyes open and our standards high (thanks BR!)… which just isn’t possible with a casual fling. I commented to express my concern that younger women are learning that sex is supposed to be casual, and this casual business is really not good for their self-esteem! (I think it makes women insecure and competitive, but that’s a story for another day… Nat?)
you deserve better than putting yourself on the street corner of someone’s life. – These statements Natalie are what – to me – bring it all home! Do you want to be Dial-a-lay or Text-a-Lay? Absolutely not. Even though I might be craving sex – NO NO NO It leads nowhere
unless you have MEGA HIGH SELF ESTEEM and can cope with a one or two nighter and then forget it (maybewhen I was younger I cold but not anymore)
In my experience, you may have “mega high self esteem” when you start but it won’t end up that way. I really don’t even think it’s a matter of self esteem so much as the ability to compartmentalize and stuff your true feelings. Women are just not wired that way!
RML – I agree. I had a reasonable level of self esteem before I met the player AC. I was happily living my life but was a little bit fed up with being single so decided to try on-line dating as so many of my friends (mainly men) were suggesting it. I met one of the biggest players in town and whilst I haven’t lost my confidence I lost a chunk of self esteem, which I didn’t think would ever happen to me. I’ve had a couple of casual relationships in my 20s and moved on without looking back. But now, I could not handle a casual relationship, I want the real deal.
I had a brief fling with a married man a while back that abruptly ended with a talk about how he thought we were just ‘kinda hanging out’ and he ‘didn’t want to get involved’. Of course this came after he’d gotten all the sex he was ever going to want from me and was already bored of me. Yeah ok, I learned my lesson from the short time I’d known him…but I couldn’t help thinking about his wife, how she caught him red-handed, how she accepted it and stayed with him in spite of it. Looking back at the way it all played out I now realize that I was just one of many. What low self esteem she must have, to have spent the last decade cooking his meals, doing his laundry, keep sexing him while believing his lies and choosing to remain the woman who isn’t enough for him. Because he’s always looking for the next one-who will find out she’s not enough for him either when he dumps her after he’s done with her. A blow to another womans self esteem and simultaneously delivering another familiar dose of the same old to his wife because he needed some fun and excitement. When he’s done inflating his ego from the outside sex, he inflates it again in building her back up-makes him feel like the man that he is not. All these other women serve a few different purposes to both husband and wife. Thank God my involvement was brief and is now over!
Escaped,
Did you know he was married when you got involved? If so, what does that say about your self esteem?
Hello Allison.
He was ringless when I met him, of course! He charmed and flirted me out of my clothes, had a few months worth of fun with me and discarded me when he sensed I was starting to fall for him. My self esteem was fine when I met him, then it wasn’t for awhile and now I am almost as good as new but more cynical and untrusting than I was before which will make it harder on the next man that may or may not come along someday. The manner in which I was dumped was cold, heartless and cruel as he suddenly remembered how respectably married he is as well as how important being a family man and provider is to him. So what this says about me is…I was targeted by and fell for the B.S. of a skilled con artist-like so many others here. In comparison to the wife I guess I got off easy cos he only did this to me once. He’s done it to her many times before with more to come. And I know for fact this guy never stopped being out on the prowl. Right in front of her.
one more thought to expound on an above comment about the frustration of knowing people that it works for, or its a question really, why is it so hard to stand by our decisions? I know i haven’t been able to . I am ok with it, then I am not ok with it. I don’t want to be married yet I want to be treated well. Seems simple enough to me, yet why can’t i just let it go when it doesn’t work. Its like I have my own “code” of conduct, that I can’t apply . I feel the frustration.
As I believe Grace said, being indecisive comes with the EU territory…..always leaving a door open to an ex, being on-again, off-again, doubting our decisions. Part of what FBW need to work on is being more decisive. When an involvement with a man isn’t working, make a decision to end it and stick to it. I think decisiveness becomes easier with practice. Every time you waiver and consider talking to this guy, for example, talk yourself out of it. Remain firm. Remember why you made your decision and trust that it was the right one for you.
Oh Katy how I agree with the whole “code of conduct” issue. I know it appears “wishy-washy” when a woman vascillates on her own boundaries but honestly, I try to have a healthy mindset about me and my boundaries and tend to either over think it (because I am not used to having them) and change my mind along the way about what I am willing to accept or decide that I don’t want to be bothered any longer and try to dismiss my boundaries all together because that’s what I am used to! In my world, relationships are an accessory not a definition… a lot like shoes so I liken my boundary defining process to buying a pair of shoes online. Sure, you love the look but you don’t know how it will feel until to make the leap and purchase them. You wait for them to deliver, try them on. You get a sense of relief if they fit well BUT…. you dread having them not fit because returning them wasn’t a part of your original mindset at the time of purchase. It hurts to return them because you know you need them and since it will hurt you if you continue to wear them thus, you wear them less and less. We need shoes/boundaries. I am learning to pick what’s reliable, values I have always liked, (honesty & consistency). If I am consistently honest with myself I won’t hold on to something or someone that will cause me grief. Learning to trust my own self dialouge seems to be key!
This is probably *the* best post I’ve ever read on this site!! Well said, Natalie!
“We must start teaching our girls that when a man says that he doesn’t want a relationship, he really means that I AM NOT AT A PLACE IN MY LIFE WHERE I CAN FALL IN LOVE WITH ANYONE NO MATTER HOW WONDERFUL – PERIOD.”
Excellent comment, couldn’t put it better. Similarly: “Just because YOU would feel uncomfortable stringing someone along when you think or know you can’t give them what they want, don’t assume other people have the same integrity.” I think the problem arises where people don’t know what they want or are open-minded at the outset and then end up wanting different things. Personally, I’ve never been a great fan of pickups in clubs/speed dating/online dating/booty calling or any of those contrived shenanigans and have always preferred love to blossom out of friendship. When I was younger I tended to assume that being adverse to empty sex would make me immune to a lot of twattish behaviour. Alas not. I’ve been hurt by a couple of situations that began as healthy-seeming friendships or interesting acquaintanceships but where the other party started messing me around as soon as an attraction grew and the question of taking things further came about. From the descriptions on this site I can see that the men in question were very likely EUMs, albeit in different contexts, one very much so. It’s sad that even the so-called sensible approach hasn’t served me particularly well. I don’t think it’s just sex with EUMs we should avoid for the sake of our sanity but any interaction at all.
I did find one boundary of my own that I didn’t know I had…the only thing worse than being made a fool out of, is to be set up as a test to see to what extent I’ll make a fool out of myself. All for the amusement of someone who’s laughing behind my back because he never even once cared about me! I’m never letting this happen to me again.
I’m glad the film Friends with Benefits has also been mentioned here. Only got around to watching it at the weekend…..what a load of tosh!!!!…..yes a funny film in parts but that wasn’t a real FWB, it was a hollywood version. The script writers should have visited this website a few times to do some real research. I don’t remember Justin T in the film ever:
a) Texting her requesting a ‘dirty photo’
b) Texting her at 2am asking ‘You awake?’
c) Telling her to go, 5 mins after the deed was done!
I could go on…..I’m sure you girls agree….JT was far too nice.
M x
Makes you wonder about the filmmakers´intentions… as if they´re trying to lure us ladies into the fwb lifestyle. Indirectly telling us “see? Justin is really really nice, see? And there is a happy ending, see?”
Not to be paranoid but it´s scary, really.
Much as I hate to get on my feminist rant-box I’m pretty convinced that the vast majority of films for women are written by men and that they have an agenda. I like to think that it wasn’t deliberate and is merely a result of the films being written and directed by rather thoughtless men but I’m not convinced.
There’s a certain sort of film that (if I remember rightly) Mark Kermode (UK film reviewer) calls ‘Revenge of the Nerd’ storylines – basically some slacker-boy bloke who doesn’t have all that much going for him treats a beautiful woman like cr@p for ninety minutes before the ‘happy ending’ where she realises how unreasonable it is for her to have standards and accepts him for ‘who he is’ whilst he eventually drums up some semblance of commitment because she looks like Katherine Heigl. I seem to remember that Knocked Up and Four Christmases are classic example of this, but there are lots of them.
They make me really really angry to watch now – in fact I tend to switch a lot of films off halfway through because the morals are so off. Sorry, but I don’t believe that it’s okay to treat someone like cr@p, whether or not they’re the one. I just don’t.
This came at the right time for me. I just entered into a NSA situation after a (wicked amazing) random hook-up one night.
I did the casual relationship thing a few years back with disastrous results. Three years later I loved him. He didn’t love me. Yada, yada, we’ve all heard it before. We had a horrible split, followed by a reconciliation about two years later then a *poof* disappearing act because we knew stuff was f*cked up between us. Just a few weeks ago we finally talked it all out and can be friendly/non-sexual/respectful/honest to/with each other without all the STUFF that plagued us about our situation. I simply said “I want love and a husband and you’ve always kept me from that and I have to no longer allow you to do that.” I entered into another FWB situation about a year later, but I wasn’t attracted to the man enough for it to become dangerous and, after a while, I cut off the sexual part and we’re now just really great friends.
I want sexually intimacy with love, but I’ve been single about a decade and I try to date, but dates usually don’t make it to date two (sometimes, even date one) so, after some time I usually find myself in great sexual need. Last week I found a really handsome, age appropriate, sexy, smart guy (who, sadly, is 97.9% my type) recently and we entered into a “let’s get it on” sorta scenario. I was very clear with my boundaries. No sleeping over. No cuddling. No chittery chat about days and work and family and whatnot. Last night, however, he ended up coming by (after he had only been here two days prior and two days prior to that). The frequency if already raising red flags for me. This is how we (well, I) as a woman end up falling into the trap. We talked about my work day. He called “baby” and “honey” and whatnot. We attempted to get it on, but he only fell out tired from his day, asked to cuddle and fell asleep for a couple of hours and in my head I was like “WAIT.WHAT.WHOA!.”
He could tell I had my wall up, which I do, because he’s exactly the type of man I can fall into Pretty Woman trap with. He dressed and went home, of which I was thankful for, because waking up in the arms of a man like this will only lead to disaster in the future.
I need to get back on my plan of finding dates once a week with new, interesting guys who are emotionally available and open to a…
I cannot believe the level of self-deception and lack of self-awareness exhibited on this website. All of this despite all the best efforts of the blog owner.
Needless drama, thy name is woman. I’m going to give you 10 things you can take to the bank.
1) The men who are willing to sleep with you casually will always be more attractive than the men who will wife you up. This confuses you
2) The only way to distinguish between the men who have sex with you casually and the ones who will wife you up is to stop sleeping with them casually.
3) The difference in attractiveness between these two groups of men is enough to cause serious dislocation, if not outright despair, in the minds of most women.
4) Each man you sleep with lowers your marriage value. This even includes the long term guys. This isn’t necessarily true with men. When it comes to sex, men are nets and women are filters.
Men don’t start filtering until they start thinking long-term.
5) Women pass out the sex. Men pass out the relationships. Loosely speaking, women feel the same way about men who want to go exclusive after the first date the same a man feels about a woman who sleeps with him on the first date.
Here is where it gets cruel;
7) 85% of attraction for men is physical, but this is actually good news. Most men are actually looking for a reason to sleep with a woman. It takes a lot to disqualify you in that respect.
8) If a man dropped you for another girl, chances are it is what you feared: She is better looking than you. Because of this, she in a position to demand better behavior than you could.
9) “Self-esteem” doesn’t matter that much to men. Men want a woman that is easy for them but hard for all other men, just like women seem to want a guy who is tough and decisive towards everyone else, but is kind and compassionate towards her.
10) No power on earth can wrest away from men the privilege of separating women into groups; the ones he will have casual sex with and the ones he can see as the mother of his children.
LOL, are you a mule or a troll?
Mule – I am anxiously awaiting Nat’s response to your post. Agree with Grace – must be one or the other. I’m going for actual namesake.
Lucifer – light bearer.
I meant everything I said. I wasn’t being funny.
If you don’t want to understand how Planet XY thinks, keep on with the self-delusion.
I wouldn’t be surprised. My daughter tells me that “talking ABOUT boys is so much more fun than talking TO boys.” If that’s true, sorry for interrupting the estrogen party.
Mule
Your daughter needs to be talking to better boys.
I hope that if a boy is as sarcastic and patronising to her as you have been here, that she’ll run. I hope it’s not something she gets used to at home. I hope that when she’s hurt and confused you don’t tell her that it’s drama. Or laugh at her when she’s hormonal. I hope that when she gets insecure about her looks and her weight you won’t tell her that personality is only secondary. I hope that if one of her exes moves on before she does, that you won’t tell her it’s because the new girl is prettier. I hope that if she disagrees with you, you won’t call her self-deluded. I hope that her self-esteem IS important to you.
What you think of me I don’t care one jot, but you’re raising a daughter. A woman.
rock on GRACE!!!
Nah, it’s the way that SOME men think.
I’d even go so far as to say that contemporary culture (insofar as it can be describes as having a homogenous message at all) dictates to (the more gullible of) men that they SHOULD think.
It’s rubbish though, really, isn’t it? It’s what silly men read in silly magazines like Nuts and Zoo.
Tbh, my response to that is that any man who holds those particularly nasty, superficial and self-justifying views ought to a) grow up a bit b) look at the way that people and relationships ACTUALLY work, instead of the way that he’d LIKE them to work and c) maybe stop objectifying other people, unless he’s happy to be objectified as not too bright, not too perceptive and not that kind.
He’s neither. It may be a hard pill to swallow, but you’d do well to make note of this list. Especially 7, 1, and 2.
85% of attraction for men is physical
This is true. Men are visual. A great personality is secondary, as in it’s not what initially catches a man’s interest in a woman.
Initial being the key word. I think we’ve all had plenty of initial attractions!
And for those assuming that hotties/averages (whatever you think is on the other side of the fence) should have less expectation of long-term happiness, do you live inside the 2d pages of some shite gossip/men’s mag? What do you see in the world you actually live in? I see with my own eyes that conventional beauty has very little bearing on whether/how people settle down. Do I live in a parallel universe?
I can not recall Mule ever trolling over at Hooking Up Smart so I would say no.
As a guy though, what he said sounds about right, as it echoes my experience.
Whoaaah, here’s somebody that’s read up on Evolutionary Psychology, stuff like “women dangle the carrot of sex to get commitment, men dangle the carrot of commitment to get sex”, and that sex is a currency that women barter for resources, which comes down to saying that women are essentially whores, whoaah, disgusting. Do you know who the biggest fans of Evopsych are? The Christian fundamentalists, that’s who, no serious evolutionist takes evopsych seriously.
Wow Teddie!
I have to believe that you are sincere about Evo Psy because otherwise you are deliberately misleading women into self-harm.
Before anyone takes what Teddie says to heart, I suggest you check on what people like Steve Pinker has to say about the subject.
Yes there are critics who are well worth reading, but Teddie is trying to scare you away from the subject completely by invoking the spectre of “whores” and “Christian fundamentalists” so this is not a sign of an argument made in good faith.
Andrew, I’m a fan of Steven Pinker’s, but equating him with EvoPsych is also a long leap, he is much more than that! There is a whole dating industry out there that cherrypicks stuff and makes women come off exactly as whores that barter sex for other things they need, these people quote Evopsych in their arguments, I know what I’m talking about. Mule sounded like somebody that’s read up on this kind of stuff, not on Steven Pinker.
Fact: creationists reject the evolution but embrace evlutionary psychology. Any ideas why?
Note: I’m not willing to enter into an escalating argument here, nor is this the right place. But apparently I’m not the only one that was put off by Mule’s comment.
Yes, I would also appreciate it if this escalating sub debate was held elsewhere.
Your blog your rules. So mote it be.
There is definitely more than a little truth to the principles espoused here (isn’t this conventional wisdom about male/female dynamics?), but I’m sure we can all think of hundreds of situations that contradict these principles. My AC in another country (at the time, a 32-year-old player) rejected me (at the time, a pretty 23-year-old), because he was obsessed with a 29-yr-old woman whom I would describe as exceptionally unattractive; and that’s really not my biased opinion, everyone agrees. An important difference between me and this girl was I was OBSESSED with him, following him around like a pathetic puppy, and she didn’t want anything to do with him. I didn’t allow him to indulge his perpetual desire to chase; she did. I didn’t have self esteem; she did. Physical appearance definitely plays a major role, but actually I would argue self confidence is even more important, in terms of building attraction.
My experience with the AC or playas is that the go for the obsessed girls that fawn over them, not necessarily the ones with high self-esteem. Am I wrong about this?
Hi Lori,
I noticed Fearless and your conversation earlier on this thread, and thought how different your experiences in that way have been from mine. I think ACs can come in both stripes (pushing away their devotees, embracing their devotees), and it probably has a lot to do with just the kind I ended up being attracted to. I can say it would have been impossible for me to fawn over that AC in another country more, so it couldn’t have been my lack of fawning that turned him off, haha 🙂
Snowboard-
Yes, I guess ACs do come in different varieties. Mine was the I-won’t-acknowledge-you-until-you-fawn-over-me type. It seems the moment I was onto him and called him out on it, he ran away and now pretends I don’t exist.
@MuleCB:
You make several good points, but the *way* you make them is off-putting. For example, while it might be true that men will forever divide women into groups (casual sex vs. marriage material), the fact that you consider this a “privilege” is disconcerting.
“the fact that you consider this a “privilege” is disconcerting.”
Yes, I find that rather disconcerting too. I have a feeling (via the wholly patronising tone of his post) that mule just feels rather “privileged” all round (and am guessing the woman he wifed-up must feel very privileged too)
If you don’t think being in a committed relationship is a privilege, then by all means, keep doing what you’re doing.
whoa. wow… and ouch on #7(however, i have found the women that i have been “dropped” for – i thinking they were fantastic supermodels, when finally seen by me, well…were nothing special. that sometimes makes it worse). anyway, again…whoa and wow.
wait…another concern. the last 4 or so men – that seemed to be attracted to me – didn’t seem to really want to sleep with me. my girlfriends can’t figure that one out either. i know they have slept with countless women before me & countless more after me. what was up with that. it’s not like i am chopped liver or anything.
Mule
I hope I never get landed with the privilege of getting “wifed upped” by any man who would use that expression.
Having a mindset whereby you categorise the world’s population of females into two categories sounds less like a “privilege”(?) and more like a Madonna/whore complex. Eeek.
I completely disagree with nr. 1 and 3, my ex casual EUM was plain ugly, he just knew what to say and how to say it – and he made me hit rock bottom afterwards.
The nice guys I´ve had serious relationships with were much more attractive, both physically and regarding their personality. Which goes to show the insanity of this whole situation.
(Perhaps I was temporarily afflicted by a Beauty and the Beast – syndrome?? Who knows, it´s quite mysterious.)
As for nr 7, I´ve never seen this in real life – all men I know that have left their wife/gf for another, did not choose a better looking woman. In fact, it was always a matter of “why the F*** did he leave lovely sexy beautiful X for that plain looking Y?”
Lilia
There is a grain of truth in 1 and 2 but it needs to be sifted out. I will do the honours:
Some of us (men and women) are very attracted to the dynamic of “winning” someone over. We want that person who is “bad” or elusive (ie EU).
I’m old enough to remember Jerry Hall when she was modelling. Six foot of Texan blonde. She had a choice -Bryan Ferry or Mick Jagger. She chose Mick. We know how that turned out. On the flipside, some of us (men and women) are actually TURNED OFF by someone who genuinely likes us.
That’s what these Pick Up Asses are exploiting – be mean, be cocky, play the game. “Treat em mean, keep em keen.” There are enough women out there, beautiful women even, who will reciprocate in that dynamic.
So, what to do about it? Change what you like. Which starts by – liking yourself. When you like yourself, some silly show off will only make you go “wut”? Arrogance becomes a turn off rather than a challenge. Even charm loses it’s appeal.
Your self-esteem IS extremely important TO YOU. It’s what will enable you to bail if you find yourself in a no-hope situation rather than sticking around trying to prove yourself. You are worth as much as any other human being on this earth, man or woman. Why do they get to tell you who you are? That power – WE give it to them. Get it back.
And be very wary of buying into the “Men value beauty above all” myth. Lots of beautiful women have fallen into the trap of believing that their beauty will net them a good relationship. But look at all the beautiful women who’ve been done over – Cheryl Cole, Halle Berry, Rihanna, Jennifer Aniston, Kylie. Your beauty is not going to turn a frog into prince charming – or a booty call into a lasting relationship. Even if you look as good as Julia Roberts. Pretty Woman was A MADE UP FILM (which I actually hated).
Before anyone says I’m being unrealistic – I am SURROUNDED by decent men and people in good relationships (it’s kinda sickening). When I was younger I just didn’t see these things. I was too busy believing some of the stuff posted above. What you believe, you will see. What you believe you will make happen.
Grace,
Spot on!!!!
Lovely, strong post grace. Thank you.
On the subject of “Pretty Woman” and other fairy tale movies: as someone who has been around the edges of the movie biz, and has had to deal with scriptwriters, believe me, you do NOT want to be taking romantic direction from these guys (and yes, most are men, usually quite young, and willing to write what will SELL, not what will transform lives for the better). Yikes.
I’m not really that concerned with trying to figure out how “planet XY” thinks. I’m more interested in how I think. That’s what I like about Nat. It’s not about them; it’s about me. I’m done maneuvering.
Mule, I’m so glad I’ve never had the “privilege” to get wifed up by you. Ewe, Yuck, time for a shower just reading your comment. The term is so demeaning and dismissive. Thank you Natalie for this blog where we can see precisely what EUM/AC’s think. Even though you always hit it spot on, it’s good to get reinforcement out of the mule’s mouth or ass!
Mule, may I never meet you and if I do, I’ll hit the flush handle so hard you won’t know what hit you. WHOOSH. I’m gonna go flush just to be sure.
Hello all involved in this rather ‘interesting’ sub thread – it is always difficult to know, when posting a comment of Mule’s nature, what someone’s intentions are. Is it to share a blunt and in part, opposing point of view that some people might have given more consideration to if it weren’t for the way in which he’s gone about it? Or is it an opportunity to stir and mock and in essence, cause those who rise to the bait to actually play into his hands and inadvertently legitimise his ‘perspective’?
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: silence and calm says a hell of a lot more than trying to convince someone. Mule has made up his mind and it’s his mind to make up and like anyone who has a set of beliefs that they stand behind in spite of evidence to the contrary because what they believe isn’t * absolutely* true, it doesn’t matter what you all respond with – it will be used to form the same conclusion. It isn’t important to have the last word nor is it important to tell someone about themselves. Stop playing into his hands because as is proven by me seeing what was put on another blog about your responses, he is now having a laugh at your expense.
I don’t not approve comments based on opposing opinion and his original comment walked a fine line in terms of tone.
But I’m not interested in debating this BS, nor about player forums. Let it drop and stop giving him ammunition.
So sorry for responding Natalie. I usually steer clear of troll threads. But, this one hit a spot. It was a play on Pretty Woman and your post that was out of line. In addition, it was a valuable thread for me to see when to hit the flush handle. Remember, I need practice on hitting the flush handle so this thread was really helpful. I’m glad you allowed his comment and the responses. I learned a lot. Who cares what “he” is doing on other blogs. He’s toilet water. Period. He’s no Richard Gere by a long shot. Hey, I got boundaries! Mule is a total double flush. So very glad you allowed an bonfide AC to post. Totally love this blog. I learn so much everyday. And Mule, you’ll be a Mule should you ever meet up with the likes of me! Can hardly wait! Know what mules can’t do?
As Neanderthallish as Mule’s Rules are, I’ve come to believe that many men share his world view. We have to play with the cards we are dealt with. There are some men out there who have a more enlightened view, but most dont, because they don’t really care about having a mindful relationship. They either want someone to fuck, or someone to marry and make them feel legitimate.
I’ve had a male friend explain to me why he has a hard time envisioning a relationship with a woman whom he quickly established sexual relations with (on the first or second date). He doesn’t think that they are sluts, or doesn’t auto-detect low self-esteem, thinking “aha, I can use this woman, and since she hates herself, she’ll put up with it!” rather, he sees that relationships are work, and that sex is recreation. Once he starts recreating with a woman, she’s no different than his male friends whom he likes to grab beer with, or watch a sporting event with. Its casual. It’s fun. It’s no fuss. She becomes no different than these ‘buddies” (although the transaction is different). He’s not going to make drawn out plans or build his life around those buddy-relationships, sexual or platonic.
Essentially, he is saying that the way to his heart is not through his pants. Its through his mind, through mutual interests, through shared experience… and having sex right away mucks it up. But, he makes it challenging by forcing you (the woman) to be the gate-keeper. He isn’t going to say no if you give him the green light.
Frustrating, but interesting.
THIS comment makes total sense to me!
Totally confused by these “facts.”
Each man I sleep with reduces my marriage value? Do I have a counter on my forehead? Or are men equipped with a special slept-with-dar that oscillates magically when in proximity with a woman, coming to rest on her precise marriageability-o-meter? No man I’ve been with has EVER asked how many men I’ve slept with, nor subliminally made me tell him.
Men who get married are at an entirely different level of attractiveness than men who don’t? My brother is attractive, and married. My father was downright hot in his youth.
The better-looking a woman is, the better behavior she can “demand”? Therefore, logically, less attractive women deserve and receive bad behavior and then get left.
I don’t live in a world that resonates with these 10 things I can take to the bank. I wouldn’t want anyone who took these 10 things to the bank to cast his net in my general direction, let alone privilege me with his long-term filter.
People really live in different universes. I am glad yours is one I only have to read about.
ixnay-
oscillates magically….coming to rest… girl, you crack me right up.
God what an asshole! We have our very own AC right here on BR!
I know. It is totally cool to have our very own AC right here on BR. Apparently, this AC doesn’t have anything better to do. Maybe all his FBG’s cut him off and he discovered BR! MsA, yo u totally made me laugh. Good luck to Mr Mule and his black and white perception of the world. Wonder what he’s experiencing when he found BR? Welcome Mr. Mule. How’s life? How did you happen on BR?
Not sure if I agree with you on this one. There are too many exceptions here. For instance, why do you see so many beautiful models, celebrities being dumped for someone not so stellar? One I thought off the bat was Jesse James dumping Sandra Bullock to go mess around a tattooed freak of a woman and then Kat Von D. Would you say they are better looking than Sandra Bullock? Hope not.
I think guys go for opportunities, no matter what the woman look likes. Oftentimes a guy will trade in if the woman he’s with isn’t up to the fun and games and down for being the option like she once was.
And don’t get me started on the number of men who screw around on their wives of countless years to go have sex and make babies with other women. I think the only type of men that separate the casual lays from the mother of his future children are men with integrity. But, they’re the ones who aren’t the AC’s to begin with and are not screwing with women’s minds.
they are all beautiful women. Come on, represent women here, with tatoos or not, big or small, skinny or fat….You are perpetuating the shit we go through!
[citation needed] for all your assertions.
Care to back up your opinions with facts?
Thanks for being straight up.
“10) No power on earth can wrest away from men the privilege of separating women into groups; the ones he will have casual sex with and the ones he can see as the mother of his children.”
This statement is based on two (false) premises: that all men are looking for a wife/mother-to-be, and that all women are looking for a relationship to fill those roles. Many are not.
Your statement is also contradicted by the real-life example of men I’ve known who simply don’t view women that way. I trust the evidence of my senses.
You speak with a false authority that fails the Reality Test.
In reality, the opposite is true. Attractive men get snapped up early on while the deluded Peter Pans, such as Mule, get thrown back in the pond ad nauseam.
Agree with EVERYTHING you say.
I’ve been stuck in a 3-times a year sex relationship with a married man for over 3 years, and I confirm totally your points about:
(a) he wants me to be easy for him, but hard for other men, and
(b) he can categorise me on one hand, and his wife and mother of his children on the other.
It obviously suits me, or I would leave. And I will do, I’m looking forward to that moment hugely, believe me. I’m not saying “I’ll do it tomorrow” like someone trying to quit smoking. I really will, and I’m waiting for the opportunity that leaves me with no doubt whatsoever.
But in the meantime, this blog is my Bible!
Sally Ann
“t obviously suits me, or I would leave. And I will do, I’m looking forward to that moment hugely, believe me. I’m not saying “I’ll do it tomorrow” like someone trying to quit smoking. I really will, and I’m waiting for the opportunity that leaves me with no doubt whatsoever.”
I’m reading that the guy is married? That’s your opportunity. That’s your no doubt.
Sally,
I agree with Fearless! I can’t imagine what you get from this! This is also very unfair to your husband. I hope there aren’t kids involved???
Why not end both relationships, work on yourself and find something healthy.
Allison,
I don’t think Sally Ann ever said she was married or had kids. Maybe she has in another post. But I’m not sure why she is being judged in this way. I’ve taken part in this debate before but there are lots of women on here who have got involved with married men for many reasons discussed here. I hope this is a place to be able to express feelings and truths without being advised to end relationships and leave husbands. We are here to listen aren’t we?
beautifully said, a safe place this should be Lets keep it that way.
are you married too or just him?
thank god I’m gay!
Pink Panther, that just totally cracked me up! Don’t you love this blog and Natalie’s clear cut way of sussing out crap?
I’m still trying to come to grips with the fact that I’m not going to be Julia R. or Cinderella! Gosh darn it. I so loved the movie for what it represented…the impossible.
I agree with the gist of what you are sayiong.i.e repect yourself and all sexual activity should be based on mutual respect but women can enjoy sex for the sake of sexual fullfillment and women enjoy and are allowed to enjoy sex every dam bit as much as men. I’m not saying this applies to all ages (teenage girls etc) but mature women can express their sexuality and embrace what gives them passion and enjoyment without a steady partner at times in their life .
SPEAK GIRL, SPEAK!!! SO TRUE!
WOW. Someone keeping it real. 🙁 THIS SUCKS. I believe everything you just said.
Question: Do you really think men are looking to “settle down” these days? Seriously.
I’d also have to counter everyone who says “Once a booty call, always a booty call”. I have a best friend who is now in a love, wonderful committed/monogamous relationship with someone she met on a sex site a year ago and only used to hook up with randomly. And, while these examples exist (and I have the hard time of trying to ignore the fairy tale “You can have this just like me!!! musings she shares with me when I lament my situations) it’s not the norm. One must go into casual relationships knowing this and not hoping for the fairly tale ending. It happens, but it’s incredibly rare.
Dalia
It’s good to know. She’s the exception – which means the rest of us aren’t.
And, well, it’s only been a year (that’s the cynic in me).
dalia may-
that’s because these two people were naturally suited to one another, naturally friends, and were both capable of having a real relationship. i bet one did not chase or degrade themselves for the other. they just fit.
i think that’s the key with ANY relationship. you can’t force it. and you can’t go into it offering one thing hoping for another.
Yes, I agree it was just plain ol’ luck and two people in the right place open to the same thing at the same time. It probably perplexes me even more because I was the person who pointed her to the site to “relieve her stresses”. First… FIRST… man she meets and does the do with – two weeks later he was like “Well. Found what I wanted.” took down his account and they’ve been together ever since. They’re a prime example to the exception of the fuck buds don’t become relationships rule.
At this stage in my life I can’t really enjoy no string hook-up either, but as I stated in another comment I’ve been single almost a decade. I get/work for/find/luck into about one or two dates a year, but they don’t go further than that. It’s not because I’m unattractive, it’s because I have a body shape and several very prominent physical attributes that automatically attract men seeking (only or primarily) sex.
So, for me, it’s always the “chicken and egg of single girl sex”. Don’t have sex until I’ve seen someone a while and have a connection which, in a decade hasn’t happened in G-rated dating adventures (they usually go *poof* after the first or second date). Or just find a casual friend I go to bed with regularly who cures my sexual itches so I can focus on G-rated dating with men open to a relationship. It’s a catch-22 really. I wish I could get off the “casual relationship”/booty call roller coaster, but I’m afraid I’ll be stuck there for a while. And, like my friend (and the other members of the 12%) it’d be nice if one of the many men who want to entangle themselves with me for sex would be interested in something intimate/loving/committed, I had to come to the realization at a point that it would never happen for me.
I agree. Only 12% of hook ups lead to relationships…
I agree; a booty call doesn’t negate the possibility of a relationship, just as a date doesn’t guarantee it. I am not willing to go the booty call route though, for a lot of reasons, beginning with I don’t enjoy no-strings-attached hook-ups.
Also, my sister has a theory that the foundation of the relationship, including the very first couple of weeks, really sets the tone for how it develops, and I’m starting to really agree. My non-EU boyfriend from last year took me out on some very romantic first dates (including driving out to a desolate country road at 3am to watch a meteor shower!), and it made our relationship develop with this really lovely tenor.
A lot of this is just style and personal preference. Particularly given my mostly negative relationship history (2 healthy relationships, 5 unhealthy ones), I prefer to keep my love life as organized as possible, rather than just ‘live for the moment’ without thinking about the future.
I was thinking about this today – I reckon that one-night stands and hook-ups CAN turn into relationships, but it’s a bad idea for the likes of a FB girl.
I have a friend who, when she’s single, sleeps with men that she meets straightaway and, I swear, the end result is ALWAYS that they fall desperately in love with her and spend a lot of time and money adoring her.
It really messed with my sense of self-esteem when I found myself single, thought “well, hey ho, it works for her”, indulged in the same behaviour and ended up being hassled by blokes who didn’t give a proverbial about me.
I realised, though, that aside from the fact that she’s very pretty and charming – which must help a little – she was also very very good at choosing blokes who WOULD adore her. And, tbf, most of they would’ve driven me up the wall in a day or two, but that was what she was after and that was always what she got. I, on the other hand, was apparently very good at choosing unavailables and men who were looking for someone to take their issues out on.
It’s also worth mentioning that I’m not sure that she’s particularly EA herself, and she HAS been in some horrid relationship messes over the last couple of years. But her man-chooser isn’t quite as broken as mine, obviously, so the strategy isn’t quite as disastrous for her.
Should add, she’s also a lot more resilient than me, which helps. If someone wasn’t nice to her or messed her about, she’d just cut them off and not worry about it.
I’d say the fantasy of the “booty call ‘fairy tale’” is only held by women with low self esteem who can’t imagine that a man would ask them out on a date, and thus they have to find a back door route. But men aren’t that complicated – they like women, and they will ask you out if they are interested, and they will keep asking you out if they’re interested in a relationship. I can say I get asked out all the time, and I don’t really work for it at all. I just try to look nice every day, and be friendly, without being flirtatious, and keep things low key, and that seems to work. Don’t overthink it. 🙂
I dunno, I think that I might have to disagree with you a little there – it sounds nice but it doesn’t work for everyone.
I can look nice (although time/resources are restricted atm), I’m usually friendly without being flirtatious (as have no idea how to flirt) and hell do I keep things low-key. I don’t get asked out.
That’s partly because of the way my life is set up (full-time working mother, not many socialising opportunities), partly because I live and work in a small place and don’t see that many new people that often and probably because I’ve been inadvertantly emitting ‘Man get thee back’ vibes for the last two years or set.
Which is all fine and I’m not going to go away and cry because you’re obviously so much better than me (I have healthy self-esteem now, hurray!) but I think that often the cycle of low self-esteem -> being unsure of and nervous about how to behave around men -> therefore being attracted to the wrong sort of men/situations -> worsening low self-esteem -> being more unsure… is insidious, difficult to identify and break and really not just a case of Not Overthinking It.
If it works for you, great. If it had worked for me (and I did try to work on those principles for a long time) then I wouldn’t be in the mess I’m in. The roots of my bad attraction patterns and unhelpful behaviours went a lot deeper than that.
Sorry – the ‘so much better than me’ comment reads as snidey to you, which it isn’t meant to be! Hope you didn’t read it that way!
That would’ve been how I would’ve read your comment a few years ago (“oh, of course people ask HER out, must be cos she’s much nicer/prettier/cleverer than me, ofcourse ofcourse”, said in the tones of Eeyore).
It’s not now, but it’s taken a long time and an awful lot of self-examination to get there. Which is maybe my point, I think.
Hi Yoghurt,
I’m in a university setting and around men all the time, so I suspect that explains the difference.
I agree that for women with low self esteem, there is a lot of emotional work to be done. I just meant that an ideal endpoint is to get to a place where you can just be yourself, and maybe feel open to different guys, but not allow that interest to overwhelm you, just allowing things to take their course more naturally.
I say this as someone who spent nine years, from ages 17-25, on the hamster treadmill, trying to convince once AC and then a second one to look my way. Meanwhile, I was turning down a lot of nice guys. And now I wonder, “why?”
Hey Snowboard
Thanks for your gracious response – I’m a bit ashamed of how snitty I might’ve sounded. Maybe my self-esteem ain’t quite where it should be!
Part of the ‘problem’ (such as it is, mostly I’m pretty happy these days) is that since I stopped going out and getting drunk, having casual flings and unrelationships (and stopped Overthinking it) there’s barely been a hint of a sniff of any interest. Most of that’s to do with the fact that it coincided with having a baby (just maybe, hey?!) but it’s hard not to fall back on the feeling that I was only of ANY value in a relationship sense when I was behaving cheaply.
It feels a bit like I’ve put a higher price tag on myself and anyone who’s looked at it has gone “Nah, totally not worth THAT” and gone on looking.
Hence the defensive response, sorry again… glad that you’ve come out the other side, though 🙂 It shows that it’s doable and gives me hope!
No worries at all, Yoghurt! It’s awesome that you’re getting your romantic life sorted out, and expecting a ‘higher price’ for someone getting involved with you. I think you just haven’t gotten to enjoy the fruits of your new boundaries yet, as you have been busy with the new baby. 🙂 For me, at least, men have shown much MORE interest in me, since I started expecting quality, and stopped pretending to see Prince Charming when I secretly knew I was looking at pond scum.
I still believe MOST guys aren’t EUMs or ACs; most of them are of at least decent to good quality, and these types of men are looking for quality partners as well. Hang in there, keep your standards high, and I’m sure it’ll only a matter of time before you meet someone who really deserves you.
Many hugs
I have a sincere question for BR readers: Is there really such a thing as “casual sex”? Natalie makes the (valid) point that “casual relationship” is an oxymoron, and I’ve been wondering about “casual sex.” It sounds possible in theory, but I’d think that at least one of the participants always wants more–either deep down from the start, or inevitably somewhere along the way. And when I say “wants *more*” I mean either they want more than what they’re getting, or they simply want more than the other person wants. I’ve never seen casual sex work in real life, so I’m wondering what other people think about it.
Good point. I think casual relationship is only possible for women (leading a guy on or putting him in the friend zone) while casual sex is only possible for men.
I tend to think that people who enter into casual sexual relationships are looking for (as well as the sex, of course) things like: an ego-boost and the chance to get ‘one over’ someone else, unquestioning adoration, convenience with no obligation or responsibility, an outlet for sides of themselves that they’d rather not show to the people who are actual fixtures in their lives… (it’s not an exhaustive list and I’m not sure that they’re ALL true of ALL casual-sex situations, but there you go).
The bother is that you can’t take things out of a situation without putting anything back in or it quickly becomes unsustainable. Both parties enter into it with a predominantly selfish outlook and you can’t work a relationship where both of you get to be as selfish as you like unless your needs are exactly and spookily matched. You’re either forced to accommodate the other person and ‘lose’ or hurt the other person and ‘win’.
My personal perspective these days is that any situation where the most powerful and influential person is the one who cares about the other person the least is a bad one. I don’t want to spend time with people who have an incentive to not care about me, that sucks.
Sort of missed the point a bit there…
ONS work, I suppose, but I personally find it pretty unsatisfying to have a procession of very shallow, short and meaningless relationships through my life – the compound effect of short contact with lots of people who don’t give a stuff about you is similar to extended contact with one person who doesn’t give a stuff about you, ime.
I like your last paragraph, pretty much sums it up!
It’s possible if both parties are of the “one and done” mindset. i.e., one-night stands. (I did so in my younger years, though not often. These days, it holds no interest.)
As an ongoing thing? Well, there are probably some people who can make it work, some of the time. All the friends I know who are attempting it, though, are in a lot of distress. I wouldn’t dare try it.
Great post Natalie. Spot on.
This reminds me of the giving because we expect to receive that a lot of us have. Where on Earth did we get the notion from that this works?
I needed this reminder right now. I had a one night stand a couple of months ago with a coworker (stupid, I know), who ran very hot and cold after the fact. I had finally gotten to a point of letting it go and moving on in the past month, when he had gone away on a vacation and we didn’t have to see each other. I’d even opened myself up to meeting somebody who a friend had wanted to set me up with for awhile. The coworker is of course back, and trying to weasel his way back in, being overly friendly and complimentary, and because I’m still physically attracted to him I was close to caving in. But the timing of this post is perfect, and it’s the reminder I’ve needed that it was just a one time thing, it was sex and nothing more and will likely never develop into anything more. It isn’t worth throwing away my chances with what seems like a great guy. So thank you for this post, I was on the verge of making a stupid mistake. I will be strong, and meet this new guy who my friend assures me is perfect for me.
Sometimes, you get caught in this trap, even when you aren’t focused on the Pretty Woman outcome. I had a scant-2-year entanglement with a MM, and I knew the whole time that he would never willingly leave his wife and kids. I’m a “smart” person, and thought that I would have the resilience and the wisdom to see this affair for its limitations. But, I started confusing myself. I wanted increasingly more emotional fulfillment, while telling myself that it was “ok” that it wasn’t in the form of a regular relationship. But, the MM couldn’t make me an emotional priority. I also wanted to know that I was valued and important. He told me many times, with words, that I was, but the fact that he was so absent from my day-to-day life conveyed a whole ‘nother message. Being left on the fringes wears you down. We are no longer lovers, we are no longer consolation-prize friends, and we are barely in contact. I’ve been half-hearted about NC, but the residual contact no longer triggers me. It just makes me sad. When you have an affair with a MM (or otherwise attached person), any they leave you (which 99.9% will), you are left with nothing; not even a memory to mourn. They get to go back and put their energy into their legitimate relationship (especially if children are involved), and the best thing that you can do is walk away, demanding nothing. There was never anything there for you, in the first place. The MM came to you when he was his most selfish and confused, needing you to make him feel like the man because that was much simpler than asking the same from the woman whom he had a legitimate, contractual relationship with. He uses you, and dumps you when he tires of you, or when he claims to “come to his senses” and wants to save his marriage. All you can do is vow to yourself that you will never repeat this same mistake twice.
“Sometimes, you get caught in this trap, even when you aren’t focused on the Pretty Woman outcome.”
This was where I got stuck. Even when I was pregnant, I didn’t particularly push for a relationship – in fact at various points I tried to eradicate the possibility of one so as to facilitate a mutually respectful relationship in which my needs were taken into account. Nope, he’d no intention of doing that.
“I also wanted to know that I was valued and important. He told me many times, with words, that I was, but the fact that he was so absent from my day-to-day life conveyed a whole ‘nother message. Being left on the fringes wears you down. ”
I think that the key thing about these situations – whether it’s an MM or an EUM, is that they DON’T CARE ABOUT YOU – not as a girlfriend, not as a friend, not really even as a human being. And that’s the thing that ends up making us craven and feeling desperate – it’s not that they’re so great, it’s that they make us feel so ungreat. A relationship that ends with care and respect – even if it’s the best relationship in the world, won’t hurt you and mess you up as much as one that didn’t have any to start with.
A few months ago or so I had an incident with Son’s dad that left me clear about the importance of my thoughts or feelings – zip (my own fault for giving him the chance to prove it again, but still). It’s made me miserable to think that, despite my best efforts, I have to have someone in my life who honestly couldn’t give a toss whether I’m happy or sad, but at the same time it’s freeing. I now have cast-iron justification for marginalising his presence in my life as far as possible, and that’s GOOD.
It was seriously unpleasant for a while, though, and made me incredibly sad too. Hope you’re doing okay. xx
Yoghurt
Yes, I agree that in these relationshits what we really need to wake up to/deal with/process is the reality that “they don’t care about you”.
@ yoghurt,
“I think the key thing about these situations-whether it’s an MM or an EUM, is that they DON’T CARE ABOUT YOU – not as a girlfriend, not as a friend, not really even as a human being. ”
That totally sums it up, doesn’t it? Before the EUM left to go back home (he travels for work), it took so much courage for me to tell him, “I don’t want you to go.”
His response? “I know you don’t want me to go, but I’m going. What are you expecting here?”
It broke my heart to think I could risk sharing my feelings with him and that he really. didn’t. give. a. damn. that I was sad and hurting. He made no effort to comfort me. He was doing his thing and I didn’t even factor into the equation.
There’s MY cast-iron justification.
Thank you, yoghurt.
I’m well on my way to recovering from this affair, but I feel particularly stuck right now; consumed with anger (with myself, as much as with him) for the two years that I wasted. The anger can be all-consuming. I let myself be treated so badly… I feel so disrespected. I know that the best thing that I can do is walk away and forget, but the wounds are still fresh. I still ache to get some kind of apology from him… some sign of respect from him, but of course, the more I want it, and the more I live with his silence, the worse I feel.
I don’t sit around and ruminate all day. I love my work, I love my friends, I am moving across town into my own place (which wont be haunted by his memory). But, still, a few hours a day seem tainted by my anger and fruitless desire for some kind of vindication, which I know I will never receive. “Being” with him made me have to erase myself and everything that I stood for. In the end, he left me for his wife and his family, and I will never get an apology from him, because that would require him to acknowledge that he ever screwed up in the first place.
I am looking forward to the day when I am no longer so angry, so screwed up, so bitter, or feeling so helpless. I know that this day will come, but I also know that it wont be tomorrow.
amanda
A few hours a day is all right. I have had it literally 24-7 including in my sleep. Grit your teeth and tough it out. It gets better.
And, also, get back to reality.
You won’t get an apology. No-one here has got an apology. Of those that have, they 1) didn’t believe it, 2) got sucked back into the booty call arrangement/affair/abusive relationships 3) got insulted under the guise of said apology. And an apology won’t get you back those two years. Waiting for an apology is still putting yourself in his clutches. But he’s gone. You’re doing it to yourself now.
He didn’t leave you for his wife and children, they already had a legitimate claim on him in law. I don’t know if he’s apologised to THEM but I doubt it would help them very much. They either know about the affair, in which case they are hurting no matter how much he apologises . Or they don’t, in which case he continues to lie.
You are well out of it.
NC him completely, including things that seem “harmless” like stalking him on FB. “We are no longer lovers, we are no longer consolation-prize friends, and we are barely in contact. I’ve been half-hearted about NC, but the residual contact no longer triggers me. It just makes me sad.”
I can’t tell you the no. of women (including me, including women in this very thread) who’ve sworn blind up and down that they should be “allowed” to maintain the residual contact as it doesn’t affect them. I say this – if it means so little, stop it altogether. Then tell me if that longed-for tomorrow doesn’t come sooner than you thought.
Total NC, all the way.
Grace, this is so true. I’m guilty of that residual contact, and after finding out that the man I was with started sleeping again with a prior fling, it hurt me so much that I had to figure out why. I obviously haven’t let go and won’t be able to unless I go NC. I too look for that apology from someone who is rude and insensitive to me and I take that to heart and then feel bad about myself. I’m trying to forgive myself and this point and realize the great things that I have going for myself and ignore the idiot who I was with. It is a daily struggle.
Amanda, you don’t say how long ago you broke off with the MM, but I will tell you there comes a day, sooner than you think, that you do not need an apology and the memory will fade. Even the wasted time was not wasted if you came here and learned to value yourself more. Consider him the tipping point that allowed you to re-evaluate what you are looking for in a relationship and if you truly grow from it and move on to a better place, it was worth the pain. Trust me on this one! My MM was a brief bf in college, who dumped me, and I lingered over his memory for 26 years…what could have been. He came back into my life as a MM and I spent 1.5 years in that hell hole relationship.
It finally ended for good when I got “worn out”, came to BR, got therapy, etc. I am a different woman now, and he made me a better person because of it. I do not miss him nor want him, I am slightly ill from my part in such a debase relationship. However, today I see the red/amber flags and I act on them, because of him. I learned what draws me to men like him and by recognizing it I can avoid it. I also no longer hold any lingering “what if” feelings for him. I see him as the dog he is and no more. Yes, he texts me every 3 months or so, but I feel nothing when I hit delete. The last time I did not even recognize the number at first…I’ve come a long way baby, that number used to make my heart flutter! You are the sum of your experiences, he was one of them that hopefully is making you a wiser person, bless the learning and drop the anger. It was only wasted time if we do not grow from it or we repeat it.
Oldenoughtoknowbetter, Thank you for this beautiful response. You give me much inspiration. This has been a very hard relationship to get over, and I haven’t been following the best recovery trajectory, since I am sloppy with NC. But, I am hoping that the challenge lies, in part, because I have held myself off from just blindly jumping into anything new, and I am trying to really understand what went wrong. I have found BR and other resources for people who keep attracting bad relationships into their lives, and rather than resisting the wisdom here, claiming that my situation was different,, and that I will have my Pretty Woman outcome, I know that its my time to look hard at my own fairy tales so that they stop turning into nightmares. You can feel additionally good about your immensely difficult experience because you now have the wisdom and compassion to offer hope to others. Thank you.
Thank you, grace & blueberry girl. You are both so wise. When I have my good hours, I know that MM has given me the exact gift that you both describe… the wake-up call I needed to get out of these FallbackGirl/Dreamer situations that had become a pattern. I canceled my on-line dating profile at the New Year and have no desire to go back there. The few times that I have had the opportunity to flirt and consider someone new, I am better about looking through their charm for potential amber alerts / red flags, and haven’t thrown myself at them, as tempting as it might have felt to drown my sorrow over the MM. I know that the biggest demon I am wrestling is myself, not the MM. I am better, in all of my relationships, at saying no, at stating what I need, and at not letting myself get walked all over. It feels better… but still, there are 1-4 hours a day that I just feel like crap. I know that full NC would be the best for me… It’s my usual MO, but I fall off the wagon every 1-3 weeks (and get re-triggered). I know that his wife and children are the only to lay a claim on him… but that doesn’t mitigate the pain.
Yoghurt, thank you for this. The humour, empathy and wisdom that shines from all the comments continues to enlighten after 8ish months of reading, but some strike a particular chord – or sore spot.
I had thought I would stop following the posts by now, I am nearly a year out of the unwitting ‘booty call’ fiasco and finally get how I was such an obvious candidate, etc. Natalie must have saved the sanity of more people than the mental health profession has.
However, coming to terms with the contempt involved in these situations is taking me a while. I think the healing is so lengthy and profound because it is also about everything that came before this ultimate learning experience.
Seeing an unsuspecting ‘other’ treated ‘not as a friend, not as a neighbour, not even as a human being’ was my jump ship moment, having always been ready and able to defend and protect others, but myself – not so much.
Like Oldenoughtoknowbetter I am still a little poorly from such a degrading (and lengthy) interaction. I have also learned a lot because of it and am quite different in all the areas of my life that were adversely affected by indecisiveness and low self esteem. That was only made possible with the help of this site, which has (as the Hienekin advertisement used to say – UK reference there) refreshed the part of me that nothing else could reach.
rosenfire
I think it means different things to different people, a bit like a ‘casual’ dress code. But I think you’re right. I think what many people actually mean by’ casual sex’ is sex that doesn’t lead anywhere for practical reasons or emotional unavailability reasons on either or both sides, as opposed to sex utterly devoid of emotion or expectation from either or both sides. It’s controversial but I lean towards suspicion of people who are habitual and over-vehement in their desire to keep emotion out of sex. Whether or not it’s genuine, I don’t think in the long term it’s all that healthy. (Nor is being over-sentimental about it, of course, but that’s another story…).
Just out of curiosity, question re: booty call to all those reading:
Do you think it’s possible for a woman to go from casual fling, to a friend, then date, then serious relationship? I ask as I watch a woman who started out sleeping with a man who stopped calling her, then she asked him for help getting a job, which he did, now she works PT where he does, became friends at least on appearance, is now sleeping with him, and she, of course, wants to upgrade to serious relationship. This man continues to hit on other woman when she’s not around, but I haven’t seen any takers as their “Creep Buttons” apparently are working. I know it’s still booty call, but she managed to entrench herself in his life and became a “friend.” Thoughts?
The short answer is no.
Longer answer, for any chance at all of an upgrade, stop sleeping with him. But then, he might chase after her and future fake, might even believe his own BS, but just to get her back in bed and get the control back. And looks like she’s trying to control him too. Not exactly a coupling made in heaven.
Thank you for the response. The woman I speak of has been the booty call of 1 man for over 8 years, and I never would have believed it if I hadn’t been at her apt. at 2 am and watching her read his texts to me. I was mortified when she promptly got dressed and left to go to his apt because he wanted to have sex. When she talks about this man, she calls him her “boyfriend who she has been with for 8 years.” It just shocks me that she actually thinks that way. He promises her all sorts of things, from getting married to having children, then reneges and disappears, with her always taking him back. She even went to a parade to watch him march so she could see him.
With this new guy, I think she is trying to keep a foothold in his life so she can stay in contact, so he will always see her. She is a master manipulator and says she learned from watching her mother appease her father, as he was “difficult” to deal with. Big surprise in that she hates her father. The new guy has a daughter, is not married, brags about sleeping with his “conquests” to his co-workers, and has left a trail of women behind, all in tatters, myself included. So I watch this woman and wonder why she stays. She actually has said, so she must believe it, that he doesn’t think the same of her as he does of the others. Psychologically, how did her mind get like this?
Lori, can you point her to this site? Even better to reading Mr Unavailable and the FBG? She sounds like she is classically looking for love in all the wrong places.
Normally I would, but she ditched our friendship for this man that she is now sleeping with and most likely deluding herself into thinking that they will be together. We found out we both had slept with him, and at that time, he was hitting on me to restart things. I told her I was interested in maintaining a friendship with her and she agreed. He eventually discarded me, she saw this, and now has wormed her way into his life in a way that will be hard to deal with if things go wrong between the two of them. She tells everyone, and him, that she owes him everything by getting her that job, she has even offered to babysit his child for him. Perhaps this will all work out for her and their sexual relationship will blossom into a romantic one, but given that he’s 50, he’s never had a relationship last more than 3 months, and he cheats during his relationships, I doubt it. As a matter of fact, he was cheating on his last girlfriend when he slept with the woman I speak of. I wonder how the two of them will handle this when school starts in the Fall, since he tells all his co-workers that his conquests are all women at the gym, and she is one of them. As far as I’m concerned, she quickly needs to figure out that she’s not going to have a home with a loving husband, child if she stays with this man. I don’t see that happening given she’s made a career out of being booty calls.
I love this one – I have just ended – with this website’s help – a 3 1/2 year ‘casual relationship’. No matter what I did I always felt that he had the upper hand and control and it really did my head in. In the end I send him abusive nasty texts for 3 weeks until he finally told me to get lost. I sent those texts becuase I had broken it off 6 times before only to come crawling back when I missed him and of course he had sent a nice texts when I ended making me think he did really care and I had made a mistake. Well I apologised for the abusive texts but stuck by my guns of no more sex and I finally got what I have always wanted from him – respect and to be treated like an equal. The thing is, men want a girlfriend they think is special, they don’t want a girlfriend who has been only someones booty call even if you were theirs! The think they deserve a special women – and a special woman does not need to lay on her back to get male attention or approval because she has so much more going for her then a convenient and enjoyable area between her legs. I have well and truly learnt that Men DO NOT value women for sex…no matter how much they perve at the hot chicks with the big boobies. Most men do not want to marry the hot chick whose great in the sack with the big boobies in my experience they want to marry the women who has life and relationship skills and treats herself and others with respect. I finally (!) figured this out when I noticed that although I am attractive, blonde long hair, tall with big boobs… that I attracted men who didn’t really treat me well or value me – and that the ordinary looking self respecting women had the nice men I wanted. I have recently chopped off my long hair and dyed it back to its natural colour and I only wear makeup when I go out. I want a nice man who likes me whether I look hot or not – not a man who wants a girlfriend because she is hot and improves his image but doesn’t like her for anything but sex and her looks – that is worse than being lonely. In fact I would rather never have a man again then ever hear the man I am with say “you are hot I can’t wait to show you off to my mates” – but they are not interested in a relationship with you and are dating average looking women with a view to a relationship (this man wanted family and kids) with them behind your back. Its a crap feeling.
So true.
Astrid, HS and Fedup – I say this to you because I endeavor to maintain a respectful, low BS community that doesn’t seek to perpetuate the very things that many readers are trying to distance themselves from. It’s bad enough that patriarchy has been about men, but actually women also now participate in it. Just read a recent article by Ashley Judd which she felt compelled into writing after being attacked on blogs and in the media about her face – most of it came from women. Let me assure you, women who *think* that they are better than other women, especially in the looks department, do not hold all of the power and are not entitled to more privileges.
You are not entitled to a relationship or whatever guy you deem yourselves interested in because you think you’re better looking and that other women who are ‘plain’ are less entitled should at least have the decency to leave all of these decent guys to you. You overvalue what you bring to the table and let me tell you right now – looks, your vagina, a car, job, great teeth, some hobbies and trying to position yourselves to be what you think men want is not enough, or even what’s important, at least not to someone who has some depth to them.
There is more to life than lying on you back and trying to cultivate a self that will win a man over. You will also find that as long as you maintain your views about women, that you are too busy wrinkling up your noses in distaste, to learn from the insights gained from your experiences. The problem is not plain women – sort your own behaviour out.
Someone is not going to decide whether you are or are not a one night stand, booty call or a relationship candidate based solely on your appearance. You have a choice in who you continue to be involved with so what you do also helps to determine what type of involvement is going to continue. You will find that when you genuinely like yourself and have boundaries, not only will you not speak of other women in such derogatory terms, but you will also find that it’s what you lead with in your interactions.
Out of respect to readers of this site who actually may not believe themselves to be the hottest things since sliced bread and may even think they’re ‘plain’, please have some consideration and respect. Read back what you write and consider how a woman who isn’t that confident about her appearance AND is struggling with the same issues as you, may feel reading your comments.
All I can say is: Right on, NML. Thank you for the sanity.
Natalie, I am so sorry if I offended anyone…I did not mean to say that I am better looking or something, no! I just thought that most men are shallow and go for looks, but it is not true! I wanted to ask what I AM doing wrong, I do have self confidence, but still it does not help:(
Sorry if I came off the wrong way, that wasn’t my intention at all. But in my experience not even one woman has explained their relationship success with me. That’s also pretty bitchy I think. They like to keep it to themselves. I’m frustrated and just wondering when in hell it will ever be my turn.
Well Natalie,
Based on some of the comments, there is every reason to think that you may have helped some.
However, I also surmise that you have an uphill battle with others, as apparently, an obstinate adherence to beliefs despite evidence to the contrary, is an inherent condition that will not be eradicated any time soon.
The link below amplifies some of the things you have said here I believe.
Note that the article was written by a woman, and has comments from a man who generally endorses them.
Landing a man’s Commitment
“ladies if you’re looking for a commitment minded man- please read. you’re welcome. emphasis mine. i left out the intro, but if you want to read it click the link. i’d read this on huff-post before i started blogging. well, i ran across it again recently and thought i’d share her 6 reasons”.
andrewv
Ha – I’ve read that article before, my mum snipped it out of a magazine and sent it to me in the post (thanks mum!)
I agree with it in the main, although I’ve no intention of turning myself into a poster of Kim Kardashian anytime soon. However, I really DON’T like the way that she expresses some of her points, tongue-in-cheek or not. I’ve been guilty of behaving in a number of the ways that she describes, but I’m not a bitch, a slut or a liar.
The implication is that those are the terms in which *men* think of women who occasionally foul up and make mistakes. If I’d read that right and it’s the case and if you CAN generalise the entire thoughts of an entire gender (which of course you can’t) then imo *men* ought to practice a bit more empathy and be a bit more compassionate in their self-expression.
It ain’t like life comes with a handbook. If someone’s grown up hearing that women who don’t have sex are frigid, humourless, hypergamous, uptight teases and then they act on those messages, isn’t it a bit unfair to turn round and call them a slut afterwards?
I’m all for taking responsibility for my actions and I’d like to think that I do, but at the same time I’m not going to turn round and start flagellating myself with abusive terms, nor am I going to take kindly to it when other people do, either. As far as I can see, abusive terms are where half the problems bloody start in the first place.
(^^^that’s me having healthy self-esteem. And if it makes me humourless or unable to appreciate the finer points of journalistic writing then so be it. I’m sure I’ll live).
Well, said Nat. Some of these comments made me SIGH!!! Get real ladies and wake up! When you feel good about yourself, Nat’s right you won’t be bother about petty rubbish like looks etc or dissing other women. To coin a phrase ” we are all sisters under the skin”!
Astrid, there may be men who look for ‘trophy women’, but that does not mean that no good men want a serious relationship with an attractive woman. You should want someone who wants you for more than your looks, but you don’t need to change your appearance to try to attract better men. I think the answer lies in you–you need to become better at screening out the arrogant, user, AC’s who want something casual or just want a trophy–and look for the ones who appreciate you for who you are and what you have to offer. (And are you attracted to the ones who are interested in the real you and treat you well? If not, that’s something to work on).
Man I hate Pretty Woman so much! I’m currently having this problem and at a complete loss what to do. Made a big mistake and sleeping together but don’t know where we stand. Yet he still has his profile up. Asked my mum
but as usual she have me zero advice.
Fed Up,
Why don’t you ask him?
This is how my relationship with baby daddy started, I guess me with being eu myself, he left me pregnant,high and dry, I on the other hand got a wake up call and started straightening myself out and getting my priorities right. My daugher is 4 and has never seen her father.I was nc with him because I needed to focus on me so that I can mother better. Yesterday I broke nc, 4 years down the line, sent pics of our daughter. I got a respond, “she is really beautiful, thanks for taking good care of her” in text,this was followed by, I know I made mistakes and I pray to god that I live long because after 19 year I would like to exlain myself to her” somehow I don’t regret braking nc, this was my way of saying, by the way we have a child and she also needs you, you can give her the father. I guess he sees himself in her life when she is 23, probably to explain why he was never around. I am going nc again and I now also know that keeping him from her will be the best thing for her, because he hasn’t changed and I have me and her to focus on!!!
My gosh. This comment made me so sad. It was. a reminder for me to close my legs or slap a condom on the dude or bounce. NO babies from strangers for me. I wish you the best.
What do I do? I can’t turn back time.
fedup-
my suggestion: go on with your life and let the chips fall where they may. no, you don’t know where things stand. let that be the way it is right now, and let it unfold. don’t chase, pursue, call, text, or internet stalk. put your attention back on you, yes, you want to know what’s happening, particularly if you have feelings for him, but you’ll never know unless you let HIM show you (or not).
so, step back from it, take the focus off him, put it on you, and go do your own thing. if he shows back up in a respectful way (wants to take you out, or calls and wants to just TALK and then makes RESPECTFUL, non-booty plans with you) then he’s interested. if he does this, and you want to, go out with him, but don’t sleep with him again. say you know things accelerated but you’d actually rather take them slow. if he’s cool with this, good. if he’s not cool with this, dump him.
if he adopts lazy communication (mostly text) or says booty-related things to you, then he’s not really interested in more than sex. in this case, i’d advise you to opt out and move on. nobody here needs casual, and we don’t want you getting into a casual thing hoping to upgrade – i think we all know where that leads.
hope this helped.
Most of us seem to be a slightly older generation/school on this site, but if we look at what happens in colleges already, we can already make predictions about the subsequent adult behaviour. ‘Hook-up culture” is the term, studies tell us that more than half of college relationships begin with a hook-up. Translation: Before two college students have a dinner date, a meaningful conversation or even exchange phone numbers, there’s a good chance of a hook-up. A good article here:
I wouldnt worry too much abt Mule’s assertions peeps. That men are visual creatures is well known & true, but the rest of it speaks only to his (somewhat shallow?) charactar & values.
I’m a reasonably good looking woman. Not a stunner or a glamour but well presented & proportioned with a touch of flair in my personal style. If I turn on the (personality & humour based) ‘sparkle factor’ I can easily pull the attention of most guys including (inadvertently) those 10-15 years my junior (in whom I’m not interested).
Am I looking for ‘looks’ in a guy though? Hell no! I’m looking for a guy with shared values & with whom common compatible life goals might be possible. You see I realise that looks are superficial & fade. Therefore, apart from pleasant looks I’m seeking something FAR more substantial (ie charactar). My sister married a man like this. He is an absolute gem & by observation has shown me what a REAL man actually is (as opposed to the ‘show pony’ type which I used to attract & now deliberately avoid)
According to mule’s wisdom a lot of guys out there will end up with stunning glamazon’s, in the end many of whom, will probably turn out to be gold diggers when after having yr babies they take most of the house & superannuation upon realising how shallow their men really are!
I’m much happier to see myself as more average & will be very happy with for a similarly minded average looking bloke with a heart of gold instead, just like mine. 😉
I appreciate this. Hoping I can make it there too with some time working on myself.
I made the mistake 2 years ago of seeing this man who I thought was great. He’s attractive, physically fit, a gym teacher and instructor at my gym (I know, please don’t judge). He was so nice in the beginning, I continued to go to class and lo and behold, I got a relationship and lost 25 lbs. in the process! Fast forward 2 month later and he’s the biggest AC that walked the Earth. Stupidly, I hung on, convincing myself to keep going to the class, after all, I lost a lot of weight going there, I would tell myself. Now I look back and think how pathetic thinking he waved his magic d*ck over me and caused the successes I have had transforming myself, not to mention the abusive treatment he doled out once he tired of me.
I am spending a lot of time on this site, and another chatting with like-minded people, and so doing some personal research into abusive relationships. NML’s book was a godsend and I find myself going back all the time when I start having that negative talk again in my head. Thanks to everyone hear for their comments and to BR!
@Astrid WOW, you are 100 % right! I don’t know where do you live, but I live in London and I met so many couples where he is drop dead gorgeous (tall, educated, successful etc) and with a girl who is very ordinary looking , but they so in love and he cannot stop kissing and hugging her! AND I always asking myself: “What she has, that I do not have?” I noticed so many English men into submissive women and they happy with them…Sometimes, I think, maybe I need to change in order to get a good catch? I am independent, attractive, have a job and my own flat, money, hobbies and still not good enough???
Hang in there HSN & I’m happy for you that yr getting counselling & recreating yr life. If I was u, to strengthen yr NC I’d be telling ALL friends yr new contacts are not to be given to anyone under any circumstances & that you do not want to hear any messages frm yr xAC you were w for 3 yrs. If anyone disrespects this, flush them! You are well on the way to recovering so be gentle w yrself. I know it’s hard to see the light when you’re in the tunnel so to speak, but it is there so don’t quit before the miracle breakthrough occurs for you. This I can relate to as I have depression also & my life too, is in quite some disarray. I’ve decided to choose to believe it will eventually get better though & I promise yours will too. There’s an old saying I sometimes find comforting which is ‘this too, shall pass’. Wishing you all the best & know that ppl do understand & care even if we are only strangers on the internet. Big hugs. T x
Good post. I’ve been lucky enough to not have been in a situation like this, but I know plenty of people (mostly women) who have and it never ends well. This post can help me during those times that I THINK I need a quick fix. 😐 Many thanks.
Hey Chloe,
Re EUM ex wanting another try yr Q asking how will things be different this time is SPOT ON! His answer is lame & a huge red flag telling you DON’T GO THERE as he will only hurt you again because HE ALREADY KNOWS things WONT be different (& is prolly just bored/lonely/wants a shag/ego boost whatev…)
Next, I UNDERSTAND feeling lonely after living alone for 19 years as I’m in the same boat (i.e have not played house w a romantic partner in all tht time, just platonic housemates here & there but mostly on my own by choice) with ONE exception. I realise I’m NEVER alone because I’m always in my OWN COMPANY, which as crackers as that sometimes is, lol, can also be very peaceful & rewarding.
Apart from getting support through B.R I highly recommend a book called ‘Intimacy & Solitude’ by Stephanie Dowrick. This will teach you the precious gift which learning to enjoy our own company actually is. I’m not suggesting I skip through the tulips everyday feeling fantastic whilst living the life of a hermit as that’s unrealistic. Loneliness is in fact a NORMAL human emotion. We ALL feel it, even people who ARE in relationships, & your loneliness is trying to get your attention to teach you something about yourself. What that thing or things may be is a journey to self only you can undertake. I highly recommend the book though as a FANTASTIC guide to UNDERSTANDING & dealing with this issue.
Re your family what can I say? We can’t choose our families but we can choose how much value we place on their opinions & what we interpret their behaviour to mean about us. We can also choose how much time (or not) we spend with them. Some things are best in small doses.
Tread gently & love yourself. And get RID of that EUM. Or not. It’s up to you but you know exactly what you’re for either way.
Hugs. T
Spinster I love your way with words. Walking sh*t stain indeed! Hope you don’t mind if I borrow that one! LMAO
Go ahead; heard it in a song and found it quite amusing, as well as useful to describe those that are users & abusers of any sort.
Thanks Lori. PS We are the same age. 🙂
I don’t know about the looks issue NML. Women not objectifying other women I get & that’s important. But as one of the ‘average looking girls’ (who knows how to ‘package’ myself I guess & tries to look after myself) I do find that guys seem to flock to traditional ideals of ‘prettier’ & also younger women.
I also know absolutely stunning looking women with very low self esteem who settle for AC’s who treat them terribly.
My point is, once we’re on the wrong side of 40, esp if we wanted more children, how do we keep our hopes up that somewhere out there, is our special someone? Guys my age (42) seem to go with women 10-15 years younger so where does leave ppl like me? I understand needing not to be desperate & happy in ourselves w.out a r.ship, but that tendency is a tad depressing 🙁
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/more-on-the-bs-diet-why-its-time-to-stop-telling-yourself-that-the-last-chance-saloon-has-gone/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/myth-there-are-no-good-men-to-date-part-one/ and the other four parts to it also cover this subject.
There is a lot of irony to your comment Teachable. Here’s a bunch of women saying that the plain one’s get the guys, and here’s a plain woman saying that the prettier ones get them… And to keep it on topic, because this post is about the booty call fairy tale, not good looking women vs plain women or how there are no decent men on this earth of 7 billion people, the booty call isn’t going to get you someone special, so it’s a complete waste of your time.
Hi Natalie. The comments this post generated have been interesting to say the least.
On topic of booty calls and casual sex, I recently met a man randomly on a beach. We ended up talking all day, then met up (not planned) on the same beach the next day and talked again for hours. He was pleasant, polite and interesting. At the end of the second day he asked me how open my mind was ( I was silently saying “uh oh”). He then asked if I was interested in having sex, that he liked sex with strangers. I declined, he said he understood, hoped I wasn’t offended and remained polite. I said that no one had ever approached me that way before. He then told me that all men want variety, even men who pretend to be monogamous, and they are the ones who are better liars and have secret lives. I found this hugely depressing to hear. Really? Is the deck really that stacked against me? Well, I thought about it a minute, then disagreed with him saying I know men who are monogamous, and aren’t faking it. I believe men and women alike can find other people besides their partner attractive, but don’t go have sex with them just because. He then explained that he gets bored with sex with one person, therefore he doesn’t have relationships or pretend to have them. He also digressed and said that the men he associates with feel the same way as him, but that it’s possible the men who do think different wouldn’t be in his circles, so he doesn’t encounter or engage with them. At first I was disgusted by his approach, it felt cheap and seedy, and made me feel queasy. But after thinking about it, I thought, wow, this guy was up front with me and let me choose based on the reality of the situation. No future fake, no lies, no BS…. no charm. I still wouldn’t want to have sex with him, but I appreciated a man who honest with me, about himself, as much as I found it distasteful at first. It was better than being lied to, misled and used then confused. I ended up having more respect for him and his approach than I thought I would, even though he represents a lifestyle I don’t agree with. My mind was open after all, just not in the way he hoped.
I respect his honesty too. If I wanted random hook up where you never see the person again, I would go to a swingers club(which i have been invited to) its just sex and fun for the night, maybe you cross paths again, maybe not, but when it runs over time, a year or more in some of my casual situations, you stay at each others houses , talk, have dinner, share intimate details of life, it is a whole other story. I had issue on several occasions where my car broke, down, my birthday was disregarded, and sometimes i was just plain lonley and wanted to talk to the man I was intimate with. no dice. he didn’t want it. he did in the beginning and then things went south. this is my problem with FWB etc. what this guy suggested is somehow more humane.
Jenny you just pointed out the best answer to the above mayhem that ensued in the angry posts. This guy you met at the beach..’this is HIS reality’. He and HIS friends are all playing this game so they think it is the way everyone conducts themselves and it so totally is not. I am very aware that myself and my group of friends all carry certain values that are similar. But we also know that there are other people who dont hold the same values and that is fine. But some people walk around in their own little bubble and think that their behavior is just human nature when really it is only theirs and maybe their small group of friends. It sounds like you had a good conversation with him and good for him for being honest.
There is an HBO show called “Girls” about the lives of 20-something friends in NYC. If you’re interested, it shows one pretty glaring example of a woman being used by a guy who she thinks she is ‘seeing’, when in reality, he regularly ignores her for long periods of time, and she then invites herself over to his place for degrading sex. I mention it as I thought it may be useful for women who are in an unhealthy situation to watch–sometimes it’s difficult to see one’s own situation for what it is, but watching something similar play out with this character may shed a light on things. While the show has entertaining moments, it broke my heart a little to watch this character put up with this guy’s treatment of her….there are also a couple of good examples of him turning the tables on her. There is also one scene with another character, who has a boyfriend, where she tells some famous artist-playboy type that she isn’t going to kiss him. He responds by telling her “you might be scared the first time I f*ck you”….and rather than being repulsed by this arrogant prick, she is apparently really turned on by it. Sigh.
Lol, “you might be scared the first time I f*ck you”?? Did he learn his lines from a second-rate porn dvd?
I´m wondering now what it would be like to say something ridiculous like that to some guy…
Then he says something like, “because I’m a real man, and I know what to do.” And turns around and walks away. Not only is he creepy, but very twerpy too, with a weird sense of fashion style… And the character he says this to has a really nice good guy available BF.
There is another scene where the lead character gets a photo/text from the guy she’s “seeing” of his d*ck. Then a follow up text saying SRY, it wasn’t for her. But she’s still excited that he’s sent it to her and virtually ignores the fact it was obviously intended for someone else.
Actually the show is really good. Entertaining, but heartbreaking. It has helped me too. While I’m older than these girls, I can identify with some of their experiences and reactions. But as I watch, I’m starting to interpret the scenerios through a BR lense. Very inspiring.
I was going to mention the sext but I didn’t want to give too much away! But yes, how she was not offended by that and the subsequent “not for you” text is beyond me. She seemed to clue in a bit when even her co-workers (who accept sexual assault in the workplace) were offended by the sext…..I hope she ends it with this guy soon, it’s painful to watch. And I’m sure her friend will end up sleeping with the AC artist ass****.
Yes, she’ll end up with the AC artist, and leave the nice, healthy, available BF in the dust. I probably would have too — pre BR.
For me, it’s really simple (in hindsight of course). Whenever I have looked for or ‘fallen into’ a casual relationship, I have done so hoping that it would turn into more. The problem here though was that I ignored my real desire which was to be in a loving, fulfilling relationship, and carried on with guys happy to see me as ‘casual’. Each time, my ego would take over and my need to win would keep me invested. The guys never, ever really changed their position, I just looked for clues which I could interpret as them coming round to the idea of a relationship with me. I’ve learned that if I involve myself with a guy looking for something casual, they have just that in mind and I will be thought of as such. I don’t like that so I opted out of casual relationships. I got honest with myself and met a guy who was looking for the real deal. I now think that even if I had had a real relationship grow from something casual I would always question his involvement as possibly being borne from something other than real feelings. Honesty with oneself is so important to me now and I have wasted so much time learning that lesson!
Thankyou for caring enough to point. e in the right direction NML. It’s late so havent had time to read it all yet. (I will though) In brief do understand scarcity mentality & the power we have to choose which thoughts to entertain. It doesn’t help that xAC told me ‘no one will ever want me’ (just to be creul / emotional abuse, as ‘paybk for me calling him out on his abusive behaviour. I will read the rest before I post anymore on this. Thanks again. PS Can I purchase ye ebooks for my smartphone. I tried but my cc details were rejected even though they were correct / fully completed. I’m in Aust.
ok, i’ll fess up.
for a few months, when i first started dating after ending an 11-year relationship, i had an alt “casual-only” profile up on a dating site, in addition to a main profile. it was sexy, NOT trashy. i did it because i had been a good girl my whole life and i wanted to step out. i didn’t even know if i would follow through on it.
i put a lot of effort into writing it. it was classy, clear, articulate, respectful to me and the reader, and it was a great creative exercise. it was better written than my main profile.
i was FLOODED with responses. they were highly educational. here’s what i learned:
1- once you throw a guy’s sex switch, there’s no going back. in other words, once you offer casual, that’s all you are. it was clear that no relationship would ever be possible from such a beginning.
2- even though they were triggered by the profile, most guys make absolutely no effort, even for a bold offer of pure booty. not to pat myself on the back, but it read as if written by an intelligent, sensitive, nice person who decided to take a consequence-free walk on the wild side. you’d think, for that, a guy would at least break a slight sweat. nope! maybe 1% of the responses were like “good for you, honey, but be careful, there are a lots of bad guys here” (aw). maybe another 1% put enough effort into their message (gentlemanly, respectful, tried to impress me) to make it worth responding to. the remaining 98%? one word, no punctuation: “hi”
3- i learned a LOT about the guys who messaged both the main and the alt. i never let them know the alt was me, but what they wrote the alt versus the main was a good test of their characters – were they respectful? were they gentle? i definitely marked them down for messaging the alt – i know, i was jealous of my own self – but they were more vulnerable and revealing of themselves i guess because they felt safer – because they never expected it to lead to anything.
4- i am not a casual sex person and i want a guy who is not a pig. the alt profile was a thrill just to have up, and it, um, served its purpose (i was HIGHLY selective and very careful), and i’m proud i had the courage to do it, but its just not me. it wasn’t even really me for the 5 minutes it existed. its purpose turned out to be to teach me some more about guys and clarify for me who i am and what i want…
i realized 4 and took it down. just having it out there got to be too much.
The thing with the internet and online dating is people feel like they have that much more options and can play the field without any repercussions, like people shopping for whatever flavor they want. I bet the majority of the men on these sites just want booty, how many are actually GENUINELY looking for something long term?
I made the mistake of browsing a dating site the other day out of boredom, but as soon as I did guess who’s profile popped up? The EUM I just broke it off with, clearly he had moved on! And the shady part is some of his personal details had changed. I felt sick.
It is no good getting involved with these men, I was convinced I could handle a sex only relationship and would not let myself get emotionally attached, but like someone on here said most women are not cut out for that, it just destroys whatever sense of self you have. If you know you have issues to deal with don’t even THINK about getting into any kind of relationship with any man, they’re not going to help you, in fact they will f*ck you up even more! I didn’t want to deal with my own baggage and instead looked for a quick fix, a distraction. Mistake, mistake MISTAKE!
Gosh. I DO hope that sex ISN’T the ONLY thing men value. It wont be for mine when he happens along that’s for sure. I’d send him packing quick smart over to the dailalay joint down the road with strict instructions NEVER to return (just like I actually DID w xAC!) Euwwww…
ps I LOVE yr handle spinster! It’s like reclaiming language & using it a postive way! When I hit the big 5.0 (gosh, hope I’m not needing to still come here by then!) I might follow yr lead & change mine to ‘crone’! lol
Hey there Teachable, I certainly hope you are still here when you hit the 5o. For me, it’s a wonderful, empowering place to be and I’m 53 today. Sounds like you are doing much better since you flushed the returning childhood AC. I hope your health returns as you flush the jerk.
On another note, Natalie what a great pic of Richard and Julia. I’m going to read another chap in the Dreamer book but the pic so captured my imagination. Ah, frig…to think that a guy would take advantage of that moment to just have sex? Remember, I’m a Taurus and as thick as they come. Okay, I’m letting go of the fantasy, reluctantly. I’m not Julia and he’s not Richard. He’s just a dude who wants to have sex with whoever gives it up. Yikes. I’m getting it but I don’t want to.
happy birthday, runnergirl!!!
CC- Not working he’s only asking me to come over late at night. He still hasn’t asked me out on an actual date. Wondering why I rejected him this week.
fedup-
ugh. the jerk. actually, i think it IS working, he’s showing you who he is. please allow me to quote myself:
“if he adopts lazy communication (mostly text) or says booty-related things to you, then he’s not really interested in more than sex. in this case, i’d advise you to opt out and move on. ”
if he’s asking you to come over late at night, that’s booty call. if he hasn’t asked you for a real date and is not showing interest in anything above your waistline, then booty call is all he wants.
do you see? the objective is not for you to behave in a certain way to get what you want, because there’s no guarantee of that, its to behave a certain way to make him show his hand.
and i think his cards are on the table. i’m sorry, honey, all he wants is sex. and he got it once, so of course he’s mystified as to why you turned him down this week. and its already making you feel terrible, i can sense it.
fedup, dump him. re-read this ‘pretty woman’ post again. don’t try to turn it into something more. and then you have to go NC – don’t let him sniff around trying to convince you he’ll give real relationship if you’ll only sleep with him again. NO. don’t fall for that.
and before you go blaming yourself for sleeping with him on the first date – sex is probably all he ever wanted, so its not your fault. go find someone who wants all of you.
i am sorry, honey. but, seriously, move on from this one, move ON.
fedup, more-
you only had 1 date (albeit an overnighter) with him, right?
so don’t make dumping him a big production, don’t create drama for yourself. either just adopt NC with no explanation, or simply say, “i’m sorry, this isn’t working for me, let’s not continue. good luck!”
i kind of prefer the latter, as its actually a better practice to not just disappear on someone, but i don’t want you explaining (you don’t have to) or blaming/accusing (don’t put him on the defensive hoping for a miracle change, because it won’t work and will be unpleasant) or confessing your feelings (no! don’t give over any power or inflate his ego). just keep it simple, polite, BRIEF, and move on.
No i didn’t have sex with him on the first date. It was a couple after that.
Fedup. You should be fed up! Seriously, this isn’t about splitting hairs. It doesn’t matter how many dates you went on. I was the gf, lived with my AC, etc., and somehow got managed down to being a convenience after 5 years. Took me a while to believe the new dynamic he managed me down to was even real. If it feels wrong, it is. I even repeated his exact adoring words to him once and he looked at me incredulously and said “But that was at the very beginning.” They do know how to behave to get what they want or we wouldn’t have gotten sucked in to begin with. When they lose interest, they get lazy – inconsistent, inconsiderate, etc. We don’t want to recognize it as rejection but that is exactly what it is. Their interest in pursuit is over. End of story. After what we learn here from NML, if we stick around for their half-assed efforts to keep us as a fallback, we really only have ourselves to blame.
fedup-
sorry, i got the details wrong.
i agree with FX. we all ned to learn to recognize someone’s downgrade of us – and we should never accept it.
keep in mind, his behavior says everything about him and nothing about you. a decent person would not treat you like this. i’m sorry, it must not feel good at all. but, again, this is who he is.
please flush.
Hi, I have been reading the articles on BR for some time but have never commented before so here goes! This article is really relevant to me. I’m 39 and a single mother of a teenage boy. I have few friends and no real family so I find myself very lonely at times. I’ve done a lot of internet dating which has never lead anywhere – sometimes that’s cos I havent really wanted it to. Last year, however, I decided I was fed up of living like a nun and signed up on a sex site. I had loads of emails but was selective and just met up with one guy. We met for a drink first then decided to meet again to do the deed. I went to his place and we had sex. It wasnt great as I wasnt relaxed and half way through I felt like crying because of what I was doing. We chatted afterwards though and I really liked him. I left and we arranged another meet a week later. This time the sex was amazing and I could feel myself falling for him. I called the arrangement off telling him it made me feel cheap. He said he liked me for more than sex but it wasnt the right time for him to have a relationship. He carried on texting as friends for a few weeks but then I went no contact with him. 2 months later he texted out of the blue and we began chatting again. He asked if I would like to meet up for a catch up – he said he wasnt after sex just would be nice to see me. I felt elated and thought maybe he was ready for a relationship. So we met, went for lunch and spent the afternoon together. I didnt have sex with him but was literally having to fight him off so it became clear he thought that once he saw me he could persuade me! I also ended up paying for lunch and he just said thank you – didnt offer to pay his half. A week later he texted and asked if I fancied going over – I told him I cant see someone just for sex – he said ‘i like you, like your company, have a strong physical attraction to you but I dont want to mess you about’. I didnt reply and I havent heard from him since – that was 7 months ago and I’m still beating myself up about it. I dont think its him so much as trying to forgive myself for behaving like an unpaid hooker! He is 40, divorced and then had a long term relationship with someone who cheated on him. I’m stuck in the trap of thinking that if it had been more interesting and hadnt slept with him or was just a different girl altogether…
Nicki, I am so sorry for the experience you just had, but my heart went out to you for beating yourself up so unnecessarily! You are human, you are lonely, so you tried something different to see if you could fill a need and it didn’t work for you. That’s it! I am not saying that we should give sex away because of the emotional entanglement that comes with it, but at the end of the day IT IS JUST SEX! You did not get a disease (I hope!), you were not a virgin, it was just a mistake that you can move on from. Just tell yourself “Oops, not going to do that again!” And the fact that you haven’t heard from him tells me his is not an AC (or if he is, he did not see an easy target), he is respecting your request that you can’t have just sex, and that is all he is looking for right now. It has absolutely nothing to do with you, or if you were different, or anything! That is why he is on a sex site and not a dating site. The absolute best thing I learned on BR is that many times, it is NOT ABOUT YOU, period! This man could have been presented with the perfect woman for him (maybe that was even you!), and he is just not open to a relationship right now. Feel good about yourself that you set a boundary and he respected it instead of busting it down! And please, please stop beating yourself up about having sex with someone because you were lonely….we are imperfect humans, give yourself some grace! Try to focus on the positives: you tried something, it didn’t work, you recognized it, you set a boundary, and it was honored. I say good for you girl!! Growth and self accountability is what this site is all about, and every time we make a mistake we learn a valuable lesson. No one died, you are still the same amazing person you were before you had sex with him, he didn’t take anything away from you (except lunch.. next time don’t offer to pay, ha ha!), keep it in perspective! He’s just not that special…..and there are lots of fish in the sea….next!! 🙂
P.S. One word – girlfriends!! I couldn’t live without them and they are a high priority in my life. Maybe focus on those relationships to fill some of your loneliness?
Thanks so much. I know you’re right. I’m just a very sensitive person and I take everything personally. He told me that he had been chasing a married woman in his local bar so I guess he cant really have been looking for a genuine relationship if he’s chasing married women. I know I dwell on it too much and after 7 months I should have forgotten about it. Thanks so much for your kindness.
On a sex site… chasing a married woman…
You did your thing in testing out a sex site for a casual thing, and you didn’t like it. So you learned it wasn’t/ isn’t for you. However, it was/ is for HIM. Don’t let a few chats and good sex make you think that under different circumstances you two could be perfect for each other. because the reality is what the reality is. The way the circumstances are RIGHT NOW is the way they are RIGHT now. do you like what it is right now and where he is at right now? Because that is what it is.
His divorce could have been because he had a sex addiction or something. Maybe the wife figured out he is not able to commit. Who knows. The one who cheated on him after that may have cheated because he cheated on her.. or maybe he is lying. People do lie about their pasts. Don’t let it get in your head that he is a relationship victim and recovering from some bad relationships and maybe with your love or with time he will be ready to be Mr. Wonderful. We just don’t know. All we know is he is on a dating site and looking for casual. Now you know that those kind of date sites and relationships mess with you, so now you know how to evaluate what you want and how to date slowly and stay away from those sites and those men. Date the ones who are at the point where they would like to be committed and grow a life with one person. Avoid those who are still in the “just casual right now” phase. that only works if you are there, too, and if you don’t get fooled by hormones. Don’t let it wear your self-esteem down. You learned some good lessons and are more sure of what you want now.
nicki!
stop. stop beating yourself up. its ok. i’m sorry you got hurt, but its *really* hard to be alone for a long time. if you need proof, read up above a bit about where i fess up about having a casual-only profile for a while.
most of us are not casual sex people. but that leaves us in a bind. if we meet someone we like, we can’t have sex with them because we need to let a relationship develop. and if we meet someone we don’t like, we don’t want to have sex with them anyway. given how hard it is to find a good relationship, that doesn’t leave us with much physical intimacy.
he was up front with you about not being ready for a relationship. and you met him on a *sex site*, fergodsakes, there is no better determinant that a relationship is unlikely to happen. the combination of the two means its NOT you, there’s nothing you could have done, so why blame yourself?
you weren’t an unpaid hooker, you just wanted to be touched and then discovered you wanted more, more that he wouldn’t give you. ouch. that hurt is bad enough by itself without you kicking yourself over it. he actually doesn’t sound like such an awful guy (well, ok, aside from getting you to meet up with him on false pretenses and then pawing at you), he’s just not ready and said so. i know it hurts, but just let the facts be what they are. just take them at face value.
and stop judging yourself. stop, stop, stop with the blame. there’s nothing you could have done differently, and now you know to stay off sex sites. so take yourself off the hook. be nice to yourself. heal.
Thanks cc – I know you’re right too. I just read things that say that when a guy says he doesnt want a relationship he just means he doesnt want one with you and someone special would change that. I’m just in a low place at the moment but i really appreciate your reply it has helped me to see it in a different way – this is a great site!
aw, nicki-
ok, but hold on. there is a distinction between a) a guy who says he’s not ready for a relationship (until he meets the ONE) and b) a jerk who may never be ready for a relationship.
from your reply to Oldenoughtoknowbetter, it sounds like this guy is b). chasing a married woman?!? please.
even if it were true that he was a) and not b), that just means that he isn’t the ONE for you and vice versa. that doesn’t mean that your ONE isn’t out there.
in the meantime, don’t place your value in his hands. keep your value in your own hands. i’m sorry you’re feeling down, that happens to all of us. you deserve your own love, so don’t skimp on it. lavish yourself with it. i hope you feel better real soon.
Sometimes they do say,”I don’t want a relationship right now,” because it is easier than,”I’m just not interested in a relationship with YOU.” Then they meet someone they are interested in and have a relationship and you wonder what the heck? Women do it, too, though. I’ve done it. I met a nice guy and instead of saying, “I am not attracted to you, no, thank you,” I said,”It just isn’t a good time for me… career change… moving… getting out of a relationship, etc” Well, I learned to just be honest and out with it because he kept calling and texting and trying, waiting for that right time and for me to be ready to see that I want to date him. Just made me want to avoid him. And I was looking to date others, so it would make me look bad and feel bad if I suddenly said to him, “oh, i’m seeing someone now,” the next time he tried to ask me out after waiting for me for the time to be right.
Don’t take it personally if someone just isn’t that into you. It happens. you aren’t interested in every guy you meet. It can crush your ego for a while, but you bounce back. Believe in yourself and believe that your great qualities will be desired elsewhere.
And yes, there are those who say they just don’t want a relationship right now and they mean “ever” because they never really want it. It works to say that to keep women around who may stick around thinking they will win him over (which is a jerk thing to do to someone)… or it keeps women around who also just want to play and have multiple affairs, etc.
The hard thing about those words, “I like you and am attracted to you, but I don’t want a relationship right now,” is that we can so easily think he’ll change. We think not NOW, but TOMORROW! Sure, he could change and want it later, but you shouldn’t give up your life or sex to him until he has changed and does want relationships. Say,”ok, I like you and am attracted to you,too, but call me when/ if you ever want to date seriously. We may not be for each other, but I’d rather date you to see if it could go somewhere than date you knowing it may never. You don’t want anything serious right now, but I am open to something serious an would like something serious, so sorry… can’t date you right now.”
Because once you say,”ok, i’m ok with no relationship right now,” and you give him relationship…
I know you are all right. I just keep obsessing over it. LIke someoe else said he was on a sex site looking for nsa so I guess he just didnt want a relationship at that time with anyone. I’m more upset cos the last time i saw him I know he was texting another woman while he was in my company and I now have it in my head that I havent heard from him cos he’s with her (crazy I know). He was also quite rude and disrespectful in some ways and I keep taking that personally and thinking that it’s cos we were just nsa and if he met someone who he considered to be girlfriend material he would be nicer to her. I’m trying to keep busy – I’ve started a couple of new hobbies and am applying to do some voluntary work on my days off but I’m jsut incredibly lonely and lacking confidence. I know if I had more people around me and a busier more exciting life I wouldnt be thinking about him.
Natalie- I remember you suggested to me to ask someone successful in relationships for advice, instead of frustrated comments. But I can’t find someone who’ll do this. I’ve kindly asked but it’s like they don’t want to give any help. Not even my own mother will give me advice if I ask her. I’m baffled as to how she’s been married so long especially to an AC.
“And really – it doesn’t matter when you have sex; it matters about how blinded you are by it, what assumptions you make, and whether you bother to go through the discovery phase of dating and find out about the person anyway. A lot of people operate with I got laid —>; It must have been for a good reason —>; OK let me scratch around for reasons to justify it.”
For me, sex is a distraction. It allows me to tolerate a bad partner and temporarily block out the things about him that I don’t like.
In my most recent relationship, I literally didn’t feel safe around him – a very muscular man, much bigger than me, a bodybuilder. He had the highest sex drive of anyone I’ve ever met in my life, and his ‘pressuring’ me for sex was more than pressuring in a few instances, and much closer to rape. (The scary thing is, the last time I saw him, he told me, “If you think I was aggressive in trying to convince you to have sex with me, you should have seen me when I was younger with girls. I pressured you only 30% as much as I pressured those girls.”)
This is why I have decided I *need* to always wait two months for sex from now on. And that might mean I could lose a guy whom I could potentially be compatible with, who may not be willing to wait that long. But that’s a risk I’m more than willing to accept.
I have told guys before (friends, not partners) that I need to wait two months, and they looked at me with disgust, at how programmed and artificial it seemed to them to have a pre-defined timeline. And I get that.
But I now know for sure that I *NEED* that pre-defined timeline, because if I just have a loosely-defined sense of “waiting until I’m ready,” this leaves the door open for me to mess up in the fog which ALWAYS emerges in the combination of the natural lust we feel for those we are dating, the trust we want to have in this new person, and then on top of that potentially being intensely pressured by a guy who won’t take “no” for an answer.
My new Red Flag Opt-Out-Immediately Code Red DANGER ZONE during the Discovery Phase is if I feel pressured for sex or am picking up on subtle threats that, if I don’t give him sex, he’ll move on to someone else.
My friend is involved with a separated man. To me, it was/is a casual relationship and all the warnings that this post states… They met online, had sex the first date (which lasted all weekend), started saying the “I love you’s” a month in… but then at 3 months in she mentioned how he told her about another woman he was flirting with online and how he would resent my friend if she didn’t let him feel it out with the other woman. She “loved him and saw something so special in him and knew he would eventually find love with HER,” so she let him go date this other woman. It didn’t work out with the other woman, so they started dating again. She pulls out all the stops to look good and be the super woman that he should want and love. Meanwhile, she tells herself and me that she doesn’t really think she wants to get married and she thinks he SHOULD date other women since he has been married for so long (all the while thinking she is so special that there is no way some other woman could come along and be better than her). Well, they are still together one year later. he isn’t divorced and both their profiles are still online at the date site. But she nonstop posts facebook stuff about their fabulous dates and how much she loves him and is learning about love from him and all the wonderful, loving things “her man” does for her.
Is she fooling herself or actually winning the relationship she used to say she always wanted? I have to cut myself off from such friends because it messes me up. I never would have dated him, but then I start to wonder… maybe that is what you have to do to get a man nowadays? but then i read these posts and know that saying no to the separated men and the ones who want to have sex the first date and carry on with other women while telling me they love me is the right thing to do.
If you really want a committed relationship that you can grow with a person, don’t get caught up in the casual thing thinking you will win him over like this post says. If you don’t know what you want, then it can be fine and you can be like my friend. She seems happy and in love even though he is not available for a true commitment and to build a life with her.
Wow. I used to think that I had to conform to the ‘unavailable’ route of dating…it never worked for me or anyone else I know.
I agree 100%. When you mentioned that part about laying on your back and letting things be casual, hoping they commit – took me back to when I used to think that way. I never did feel good about casual sex and was always a hopeless romantic at heart, but a little confused, well a lot confused. I wanted the love but had a skewed picture of what they was and what it felt like. I’d play the coy, unattached woman, he would play the ardent, interested man for a few weeks, speed up the process and then the roles were reversed. Here I am sleeping with this guy and now I want some sort of commitment, and now he barely seems to want to spend time with me and if he does, it’s on his terms.
I have been out of a relationship for a long time. I haven’t dated much but just got back into the process. Like you say it’s not so much that I want to wait certain amount of months, weeks, etc… but I do want to make sure the foundation is strong first with love, care, trust and respect – an actual friendship, a relationship which includes sex after their has been something real produced between us. I personally don’t want to be having sex with someone just for getting off, I want that to be shared in the context of a healthy relationship.
This was my story….I say “was” because for 6 years he told me that he would keep me on till he met his one and only, and I agreed.
I always filled in when the girls broke up with him, I was always there, and ran to him at a moments notice, since I was an “option”…..his plan B or C.
He has stood me up a number of times, lied to me, and somehow in between made me feel as if I were the most special girl in the world.
This year he didn’t want to be seen in public with me, so I always went to his apartment.
He is a classic EUM.
He told me we were 2 peas in a pod….until he met his latest….his quite possible “one and only”.
An flight attendant, who lives 7 minutes away from him.
They see each other twice a month or so, have committed to each other.
He had me over, to tell me about her, over a bottle of wine, and a lot of tears on my part.
He had dated countless women….. I’ve lost track.
He still wants to be friends.
I can’t.
I really thought he would fall in love with me, against all odds.
I’m in a pretty crappy situation like this. I can’t understand anything this guy does. First off, he pursued me for over a year before I slept with him, He invited me to functions (plays an instrument in a band) and told me it was awesome that I was coming. Slept together a second time and I figured it would at least be a relatively monogamous physical relationship. Then today when I ask about that he blatantly ignores me, and it totally destroys my self esteem, which is now saying “Wow, I’m not even good enough for no strings attached sex?”
But why pursue me for over a year, especially when he could easily take home a girl from the bar every weekend?
Why talk to me for an hour before and hours after sex even when I try to leave to avoid seeming clingy, he wants me to stay and talk about life etc. (I tried to leave to avoid feelings, he asks me to stay and talk.)
Why invite me out?
Why ignore me for days only to send me texts for days in a row after that?
And the sad thing is I know I’m fixated on him and derive good feelings from his attention, and obsess over trying to understand. So this will just go on until it totally destroys my self-worth. That’s my prediction.
Gabbie
A man who pursues you for over a year is a man who doesn’t like to lose. He likes the chase. He likes a challenge. And then what does he do when he’s caught you? Chase something else.
Unless you want to play an exhausting game of cat and mouse until one or both of you are entirely sick/bored of it, I would exit now.
As for the nice chats etc, I get it, the ex playa did all that as well. But it still made him a playa.
“So this will just go on until it totally destroys my self-worth. That’s my prediction.”
That’s enitrely your choice Gabbie.
It will go on as long as you allow it to. Why does it matter “why” he does it? You deserve an answer as to whether or not it is exclusive or not. I spent years in various booty calls, fwb, hoping for change, hoping for love, ignoring not just red flags, but blatent billboards when men would say “this isn’t exclusive” , and I STILL stayed and messed myself around. I also embarrassed myself many times. Please don’t worry about the why. Get an answer and figure out what you can live with. and remember, no answer, is still an answer!
Hi,
Interesting article. I’ve always wanted a LTR and have never had a casual relationship in fact ive never had sex (But done other things kiss cuddle, whatever). I’m 29. I find that when i try to get to know a guy he’s usually pushing for sex, when I say no he runs away. Like ex1 who went back to and subsequently married his on/off ex of 5years. She hung around him long enough for him to commit. I was 26 at the time and she was 36 so i should have been the younger shiny ‘model’. I’m size 8 and people say i’m pretty. I think i’m ok but looks aint all that matters I mean look at all the messed up love lives of pretty celebrities.
Anyway ex2, he said all the right things and all was going well…until after about 5 months he wanted sex. I explained my no sex principle. Then slowly he stopped contacting me. We didnt even break up officially the relationship just sort of fizzled out from his side. I’m sure its the no sex thing that caused it.
So this advice doesnt resonate with me. Men want sex. All my friends are having sex and going on to marry/live together. Whilst ME little miss no sex is still single and lonely. I’m really considering giving up this no sex crap as it hasnt ‘worked’ for me. I’ve become so bitter and twistd…so different from who I used to be.
In fact I’ve had enough of relationships. If I meet someone great, if not, whatever. I’m so fed up and if 90% of men are selfish sex-crazed twats then really i’m better off single and not having sex with someone who’s really not worth it.
I went through the same exact experience as you.
It’s not your no-sex policy that is wrong. Though the fact that so many women are giving it up, and so easily, makes dating very difficult for the girls who aren’t giving it up before marriage. Why SHOULD a guy date you when he can get laid, w/no consequences (especially pregnancy), these days? It all comes down to timing: you have to be the one walking by when he is ready.
So you have to seek out men who are ready. Have someone set you up. WITH A GUY WHO IS RESPECTFUL AND SERIOUS. Etc. etc.
Also, if you are too much of a good girl, and TOO nice/easygoing/accessible, then, even if they DO resoect you b/c you haven’t slept around and are serious about your love life, they take you for granted.
So what to do?
They need to see THREATS. You are Greek, no? DATE OUTSIDE YOUR ETHNICITY and make it obvious that you are–DON’T HIDE IT.
When Greetardos see a threat, they start to take action.
Melina
If you want to wait until you are married, say that rather than say you don’t want sex. But why so strict? For me it’s religious (even though I’m not a virgin). Because it’s religious I know plenty of other people who feel the same way so it’s not a big deal. If the reason is religious, then date within your religion. If it’s not, ask yourself the kind of man/relationship that would make you comfortable, and have that conversation with your boyfriend when the time is right.
But even marriage is no cast-iron guarantee of fidelity. Having said that, I know couples (not all married) where I would be very very very very very (very) surprised if one of them cheated. If my brothers cheated there would be words! It’s the person that counts and your judgement, and whether you trust him and yourself. There’s always a risk.
Hi Ladies,
Thank you for your responses. No I’m not Greek lol. I already date outside my race. Yes I’m Christian and I’m saving sex for marriage ideally. If it happens before marriage its not the end of the world, but I need the guy to be happy to commit to me in a relationship before we start having sex. I need him to love me for me and I to be free to love him for who he is…to love him as a whole package. I believe that if the guys sleeps with you before commitment, he has no reason to commit to you because sex can get in the way of you two really getting to know each other! I remember the boys I liked when I was school, I liked them because we had the freedom to know each other as friends before feelings start to develop
I know I should only date people that have beliefs like me about sex, but its soooooo hard to find like-minded people. I just don’t seem to come across them OR they marry young at 23/24 🙁 The media and films and everything treats casual sex as normal. I wish women will begin to see themselves as gatekeepers once more.
I heard that in France, if a French girl agrees to go on a DATE with you, then you have done really well as a guy. But in England where I live girls are so easy. I mean sometimes I wonder if there is any need for men to pay for prostitutes when they can get so many girls willing to be a sex-buddy for nothing!! Its so easy for men to pick up a girl in a bar. If only women around the world will come together and decide to have higher standards. Maybe we will find the love that we are looking for. I wish someone will tell me I’ve got it wrong and I should just sleep with the next guy I like and that will make him love me. Cause I’m so fed up of being dumped for not putting out.