So many people who feel twitchy about commitment say stuff like, “Natalie, it’s too much to expect somebody to know if they want to commit in the early stages of the a relationship”, which is the same as saying, “It’s too much to expect a person to make any decisions no matter how basic, in the early stages of a relationship.” A bit of probing and it becomes clear that that they’re twitchy about commitment because they associate the term with forever. Personally, I’d be damn scared of dating and being emotionally honest if I thought that me saying, “I like you. Let’s spend more time getting to know each other”, was going to be taken as an iron-clad forever agreement.
Commitment is a decision and we make decisions in all areas of our life and without even being conscious about half of the ones that we’re making – we use habits to take care of a lot of our decision making, sometimes too much so.
In terms of dating and relationships, when it comes to commitment, we phase it in – something I’ve written about before. At its most basic level, commitment is about showing up and then choosing and re-choosing to keep showing up to the relationship in a committed (decided at that level) capacity. If the person you’re with cannot show up for and with the basics, they’re not someone that you should be strapping yourself to for the long haul.
No matter whether we’ve just been introduced via a dating site or just met (stage 0), whether we’re dating (stage 1), whether we’re in a relationship (stage 2), whether we’re evolving into something more long-term (stage 3), or whether we’ve made a level of commitment that says that we’re in this for good (stage 4), all of these require us to show up.
This past Monday marked our two-year wedding anniversary – incidentally, after two years of being blanked, my father called and apologised but we’ll save that one for another day. One of the things I know with absolute certainty is that I can’t decide that I don’t feel like showing up to my marriage tomorrow. I can’t decide to emotionally check out or start shopping around. Well actually I could but in doing so, I would be making a decision that takes me in the opposite direction of commitment.
If I’d had a problem with showing up in the previous stages, that in itself would have indicated that we shouldn’t have been making another level of commitment through marriage.
I see relationships and the phases of commitment in a similar fashion to children learning to read. Here in England, they have different reading levels (by colour) and as the kids move up the levels, they enhance their literacy skills. Somebody who is on yellow – a preschooler – won’t have the same literacy level as someone who is a few levels along.
When we go from stage 0 and move along, we are becoming emotionally and relationship literate about each other, or at least we hope we are if we’re both working together.
Problems arise for instance, when we take stage 4 declarations seriously from someone who we’ve only been introduced to via a dating site (stage 0) or when we have ‘forever’ feelings and expectations for that person. This is Fast Forwarding and Future Faking. It also shows a lack of comprehension for what a relationship takes – action with time and experience.
I hear from so many people who have gone ‘all the way’, so stage 3-4 despite only being truly based at stage 1 or 2 and there being feedback from the interaction that’s indicative of commitment issues. A person who cannot decide to only date and sleep with you, or who struggles with the concept of deciding to progress from dating into a relationship and seeing how things go so that you can get to know each other on a deeper level, isn’t going to be capable of other commitment.
If a person cannot cut it on the basic comprehension in the early days of the relationship and/or they circumvent being and doing the stuff that will foster deeper intimacy and communication in the relationship, halt.
I know it’s annoying when you look at how much time and energy you’ve invested and you’re in essence thinking, Hold up a frickin’ second here: We’re stage 1 even though we’ve been together for several years (some people are on a permanent date), but that doesn’t mean that a greater level of commitment is possible.
As I said to one reader, How the hell are you going to try and get this person to commit to the long haul when they cannot comprehend why you’re not okay with being in a casual relationship?
If as we share our lives in the relationship and we find that we have incompatible values that will make increasing commitment a problem or we find that we don’t communicate and deepen our relationship, we have to address this before we go deeper. We need to know how we interact together in real life. How do we deal with the likes of stress, pressure, sharing our lives, sharing ourselves? Can we talk, I mean, really talk? Are we being our true selves, or are we playacting at a relationship?
Once you decide to show up, it’s not so much a question of deciding whether or not to show up in the future but how you’re going to go about it and what you’re going to continue.
Not all commitment equals marriage. There are numerous decisions we need to make before that point plus marriage is just one expression of a level of commitment but not the only expression. This is a good time to mention that commitment is not only a decision and showing up, but also the expressions of that commitment through action. The fact that someone is in a relationship or married doesn’t mean that they are committed. Of course in an ideal world it should but in reality, some people are still dating hence why cheating exists.
‘Showing up’ doesn’t mean existing and showboating for an audience.
Just like with our jobs and careers, if all we did was show up, we would not be putting in a quality effort. It’s about what you show up to do. Some people show up to pass time, to tick a box and to collect their benefits – and that’s just on the job front… – and some people show up willing to give it their best shot each day. They show up with love, care, trust, and respect. No day is perfect but each day they show up and they try. They don’t give themselves permission to take a holiday from their commitment. They don’t show up looking for ways to question and analyse the decision each day.
When you’re in a relationship or have decided that you’re dating someone, you can’t just pick and choose when you feel like showing up and participating. You can’t just switch the relationship off or down, or decide to switch off your emotions when you feel like it. In choosing to show up, you are creating something between you and a partner – you’re building a relationship.
Healthy relationships give back, as in, you put in and you’re both rewarded. You both build from the ground up and progress – you don’t just expect to manifest the relationship you want out of your imagination. You navigate it together. You copilot together. Unhealthy relationships leave you worse off. You feel like a worser person for being in it. You show up, often willing to do the work of the both of you (overcompensating and being a blame absorber is never a good move) and end up getting a kick in the teeth for occasional ‘good times’.
Relationships don’t just happen; they are built. They’re a joint venture and that’s only going to be decided and developed by making some initial decisions. Sometimes we’re too caught up in putting a roof on something that doesn’t even have a foundation and a structure to rest it upon.
Your thoughts?
PS I recently guested on my local community radio station and the recording is available just in time for some weekend listening. Thanks to all of the readers who emailed in!
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Thanks. This is something I really needed to hear.
May I start by saying a big thank you to Natalie for her brilliant website, it has been a massive support for me. I also want to apologise for the length of this post, but I would really appreciate some honest opinions and advise from all the brave women out there….so here goes!
I am still trying very hard to move on from a ‘future faker’ and whilst it has been a year since we broke up i’m still in immense pain. We were together (on and off) for 7 years and whilst I utterly loved and adored him, he failed to give me any commitment and ‘faked’ a ‘future’ time and time again, which caused three very painful break ups. With each break up, I tried very hard to get over him, but at the point when I was almost back to myself he would magically return with promises of ‘real’ future plans. Stupidly, I believed him each time and have ended up on what feels like a very traumatic merry go round! The second attempt at getting back together, happened whilst I visited him in hospital as he recovered from a massive bike accident. I then took care of him for six months, knowing that he was likely to be wheelchair bound for the rest of his life. Having made a full recovery and returned home, our relationship began to improve. A year or so later, I finally gave him an ultimatum about settling down and I was devastated as he told me he didn’t know what he wanted anymore and that it would be about 5 years until he really knew (he’s 35 and i’m 28!) at which point I made the most painful decision of my life and left him for good. At the time it didn’t feel like I had any other option and I felt so betrayed. We’d spent years together and i felt as though i’d shown him the extent of my love for him on so many occasions and yet he still didn’t cherish me enough to commit to me and he had hurt me time and time again by letting me walk away and then trying to win me back. I realise that you probably think i’m crazy to have allowed it to happen but it’s so hard when you love someone and you believe in what they say, hoping that this time will be different, but yet again I was heartbroken and have been ever since.
It’s been a year now and a week ago I found out that he is now engaged to his brothers’ ex of 5 years….which is why i’m writing this post! I am utterly beside myself and whilst I feel that their behaviour is quite bizarre and unacceptable, I am also mortified that he could propose to her, when he couldn’t propose to me. I feel like i’m losing my mind going over everything time and time again, asking myself how I could have done things differently and made things work for us and more than anything else what she has done that I clearly couldn’t. It’s killing me!
I suppose what i’d like to know, is what other readers feel about my situation. I just feel so hurt and traumatised but the whole thing and my self esteem is at an all time low! I have had moments of weakness when i’ve wanted to call him and ask why? Why he couldn’t marry me and why I was so hard to commit to?
I know I must sound very vulnerable and such ideas are probably not good for my wellbeing, but i’m really struggling and would like any advise that might help me to stop feeling that my world has fallen apart!
Help! x
Hi Sophie,
when I was 28 yrs old I broke up with a man, like you I adored. It had been a 6 year thing. He was 38, never married, never committed. When I ran into him again decades later I saw him a bit. He’s still single, lives alone. He told me I was one of the few people in his life….He also told me he had lived with someone for 8 years which almost destroyed me. Why wasn’t it ME you wanted to live with? I would have spent my life with you!. Why didn’t you chose ME when I was 28? But now he is OLD and ALONE. And he could have had me as a really good friend who loved him as he ages, but, he was incapable…please know his actions and thoughts are not about YOU. (took me a long…time). These men are limited, relationships for them are transitory. I’m fortunate in that I met someone after him that committed to me. I felt like I had met my long lost best friend. You may never truly get over him,as I don’t know if I am completely over him (hence a trip to find Baggage Reclaim)but ultimately, it’s not YOU it’s His issues.
This is SO true: “Problems arise for instance, when we take stage 4 declarations seriously from someone who we’ve only been introduced to via a dating site (stage 0) or when we have ‘forever’ feelings and expectations for that person.”
I see this in some of my clients all the time, and I used to do this myself. I love how you described it in stages, that’s brilliant!
Love, Helena
Happy Anniversary! Your husband picked a winner, so he must be pretty extraordinary.
Oh, how I’d love to send this entry to a bunch of my exes, but I won’t.
It’s not my job to educate them.
Can you tell us what plans you may have for your anniversary? I’d love to see how normal people celebrate. 😉
Love,
Karen
Hi, I’d like to know how you can be rational and think through all the steps (which incidentally I think have been brilliantly spelled out here) when you are in the first throws of desire, inspiration and admiration for someone you’ve just met. In the past I’ve leapt from 0 to 4 too fast, and also 0 – nowhere because of being overly cautious. I’ve never yet met a man who would play the ‘step 1, step 2’ game in my timing….and their timing is always 0-4. Anyone know how you articulate the stepping process to the new person in your life (who you desire the pants off) without sounding like a school marm?
Maybe you can step back and discuss this openly with the person you’re involved with. You could tell him how much you enjoy his company, how smitten you are, and also tell him that you want to fully enjoy each stage of the experience. It doesn’t have to be a heavy conversation or a downer. If I were in this situation, I would probably be direct and have a sense of humor about the situation. Acknowledge the infatuation, appreciate it, and recognize it for what it is: the exciting, passionate beginning of what can possibly turn into something deeper. But it can only turn into something deeper if both people are honest and open about themselves, learn to be there for each other, in other words committed. This can be articulated in various ways. Anyway, I haven’t had the chance to try this out yet, because I haven’t yet to become smitten with someone, but I’ve thought a lot about this topic, and know I want an honest conversation when the time comes. I also know the right person, or the right people, for me will also want to have this conversation.
longtermsingle,
It’s good to go into dating a guy purposefully – so you deliberately slow the pace by, when he asks to see you, spacing your dates out to once a week for a little while, and then gradually building up to more frequently. Also in the beginning, avoid situations where you can get too physically intimate (such as watching a DVD at his/your place, for example) which tends to ratchet up the pace a lot. So keep dates to public places, where you can talk and get to know each other first.
Also, it’s not so much about getting a guy to jump through hoops, but I would raise the bar a bit with a new guy – ask that he calls you instead of text, encourage and accept guys who put more effort in. This tends to naturally slow the pace of the relationship down as a guy will put more thought into something where he has to make more effort and be more conscious about it.
And of course, keep to your own boundaries. Speak up in the moment when something feels uncomfortable and voice your desires to take things slow, and then stick to those boundaries. I believe if we want a relationship that progresses more slowly and more purposefully, it is up to us to be the gatekeeper. Time will tell if a guy is willing to move at your pace, and this will be someone truly worth entering into a relationship with.
Yes, ask the guys to put in the effort. I am on dating sites and I expect the guys to come out to where I live to meet for the first coffee. i figure if they are not willing to put in that effort, then why should I, plus i like a guy who is a gentleman. Most guys do come out to where I am, which can be up to an hour for some of them depending where they live. There is this guy who is like a five minute drive from where I live and I asked to meet him in my area and he got back to me saying that he’s not available that day but that he’s in that area that day or if I could come to his area the next day…. I thought, this guy is not even willing to put in the effort to drive 5 min, 7 min tops to meet me. He seems full of himself and I’m thinking why waste my time. What do you guys think? I don’t think I am being unreasonable to expect a guy to put in the effort to meet me for a coffee. To me that is bare minimum in evaluating his commitment level.
longtermsingle
Slow your roll girl! This stepping from 0-4 in the meeting, dating and commitment process is NOT a conversation you need to be having with a guy you just met.
I understand you are ‘smitten’ and you are really into this guy, but, do you know if he feels the same way about you?
People unfold and you don’t know as yet whether he is a good guy and is really into you, or an assclown. Only time will tell and you need to put a rein on your feelings until you do know exactly how he feels about you.
If he does want to be with you and really likes you, you will know within the next 2-3 months, he’ll make it clear in his actions and you won’t need to discuss anything. If he doesn’t step up you will know that he’s not a keeper and to move on and you won’t be devastated by a man who has no intentions of being with you for the long term. A lesson I learned the hard way on staying with a guy who doesn’t love, care or respect me.
A wise man once told me – hurry slowly!
Talk about timing. I just asked me bf of 2 years (on and off) where our relationship was going. He couldn’t give me an answer and blamed me for forcing things that should just come naturally. I love him so much and I know I compromised myself a lot to be with him. I broke up with him 2 months ago and did the no contact for 3 weeks until he texted to tell me he had a death in the family. Thinking him reaching out to me meant that I was important in his life. He showed me some progress but I think I want more reassurance.. something he can’t give. I know I have to leave him and find someone who will show me what I mean in their life. It’s hard but it is the best thing to do. Like Bonnie Rait wrote, I can’t make you love me so I won’t.
Sammi, two years should be enough for a person to know if he is with you or not. Commitment might not mean marriage, but at the very least it means, “yes, I am with you, ” and proving with the actions that he IS with you.
I like Nat’s description of “showing up.” I just learned something new. I thought I knew it all. I thought that showing up during scheduling outings on the weekends to pass the time is showing up. I thought that being consistent calling is showing up.
I gather now: Showing up is being there for you like when you are sick or your child is sick, when you need help, when he needs help. It’s helping each other through the routines and burdens of life. It’s being there for each other. It’s not a permanent albeit consistent dating showing up kind of routine. This is a different concept.
Hi Sofia,
He was there everyday. We would text and/or talk every day, say good night but I need reassurance what we were. I had met his family and things but as I am 36 (he 40), I didn’t want to waste anymore time wondering if we had a future especially if we wanted kids. He couldn’t tell me that he love me or envision a future with me for he can’t even envision what he was doing tomorrow. I’m sad but all good in the end.
Sammi, I understand. You have had a lot more closeness than I understood from the previous post. He is just non-committal I guess. He has a hard time committing. It is very sad.
Sammi, I thought about your post again and remembered my situation. We communicated every day too. He was showing up predictably. No assclownery kind of behavior that Nat writes about. I never experienced that. But it was a constant permanent state of dating. I wanted being reassured too. Too many times. He broke up with me after my last request of reassurance. It took me awhile to overcome self-blaming “I wish I were not so needy and insecure.” I see now that was not the issue. You don’t need to be reassured with someone who IS WITH you. I experienced that before. I never felt insecure with an available, committed person. No confusion.
One year relationship. I guess that’s how we get the answer. They are NOT WITH us if the breakup has happened.
Yours was 2-year relationship and even more intimate than mine. Family, friends introduced. I am sorry. I know it’s painful. I am still going through the healing. There is no magic solution. Good days, bad days, horrible days, great days. In cycles but overall it does get better.
I was in this same situation, and for a lot longer, almost 5 years. He was very reliable in certain ways, which is probably why I stayed with him for so long. He would always call. He was on time. He always wanted to see me. There were no disappearing acts, as I experienced so much on the dating scene (guys who would plan a date w you only to cancel 5 minutes before). But emotionally, he would show up as little as humanly possible. It was virtually impossible to have a serious discussion with him about anything — even after 5 years. It was like pulling teeth. After 5 years I at least wanted to know if this person could be my emergency contact, would be the person who would come to the hospital if something happened — be the person who would take my pets if I got killed, that sort of thing. And oddly, every time we met up, he would look at me as if he’d never seen me before. That was very bizarre. It was like every date I had to get to know him all over again. Permanent stage of stage 1 dating — yet with a man I spent most of my time with, met his family, spent holidays with, vacationed with, etc. After awhile I just realized he wasn’t that deep!
Diane, that’s amazing! That you two being so close, yet remained disconnected all these years. Someone told me listening to my story, that perhaps you were just incompatible. Well… But then why to prolong the dating beyond first few weeks and try to build a relationship. Or maybe people discover incompatibilities only later but because they are used to each other and the benefits, they keep staying? It’s a complicated question. I guess what I find hard to believe is that some people just can’t connect? Or is it because we are not the right person for them? I don’t think I will ever know the answer to my story. 5-year relationship is long. It must have been very hard to end this seemingly normal relationship:( . I can completely relate to how every time you saw him, it’s like it was new. like 2-3 date and you still have to put on your better appearance, behave properly and not be yourself completely and learn about him again only to realize again and again you have never touched anything beyond the surface. Yes, I too never knew what his problems, fears, insecurities were. I never knew any depth of him. Disconnect. Maybe it’s “easier” to admit we were just not compatible and that’s it. We made a mistake.
We were compatible in some ways, but not in others. And I’ve come to realize and accept that I wasn’t prepared for a fully committed relationship at the time. I’d just gotten out of a 10 year very loving relationship when I met him — one that ended abruptly and traumatically — and I was cut off emotionally myself. So I didn’t demand much of him or anyone, because I wasn’t capable of giving it back. But as the trauma began to wear off and I began to become myself again, I started to need more of an emotional connection. It took me even longer to get out because he would run after me, begging and pleading, whenever I broke it off. He’d promise to change, blah blah. I didn’t realize people might want to change but be unable to do it, or unwilling to put in the enormous work that requires. I thought just saying it made it so. Whether he will be more emotionally intimate and available with someone else is not my concern anymore, nor my business. I only concern myself with myself and what I’m capable of, and what I want and need. And, mostly, what I can do for myself to be happy and content, because no one else can make you happy. Lots of reading, counseling, meditating, BR and other sites, Al-Anon, you name it, all of it I practice each day — and yet I still have my setbacks and down days, which is fine, because that is life! 🙂
May I jump in here, Sofia and Diane? My relationship has been 2 !/2 years and still going. All the regulars know about “my man”. He is a good one in no uncertain terms. The problem we have is that I am a very emotional, intensely passionate woman whereas he is very loving and kind but just isn’t able to be in love. I can’t fault him for this because this is who he is. He’s a wonderful friend and will do anything for me, but he likes his solitude. He’s much older than most of us are referring to, has been married 3 times, and he’s not looking for deep commitment. I, on the other hand am looking to be in love. I have no desire to get married, (done it twice, already) but I want passion that he doesn’t seem to feel. He makes an excellent friend, but not a lover. I’m saying all this to express how important it is to really get to know your man. Study him. Listen to what he says. They do tell you what they want and they show you. It’s up to you to remove the rose colored glasses and accept what you see and hear. My friend and I will always have a relationship, but I realize that I have to continue to look for what I want and need from someone else. I’m not going to get it from him. And, yet the qualities he possesses and the fun and joy he brings to my life to I don’t expect to find in anyone else. So my conclusion is to have one man for passionate sex, and another man for stimulating conversation, jokes, and a really good time. My friend is unable to meet the first requirements due to ED – again, I can’t fault him for something he cannot control, esp. after he’s been through all the possible remedies with his md except a penile implant which I’m contemplating suggesting but have know idea when would be the appropriate time to do so. If that were to work, our relationship would be just about perfect. There is no such thing. Sorry to go off on on a tangent there. But, again, you have to know what you want, what you need and what issues are non-negotiable. If you can’t be happy with him as he is, then it’s time for YOU to make the changes that YOU need.
Tinkerbell, I remember your story. I can identify with your need for what you can’t get from him. And while romance and passion might fizzle eventually, I still think physical bond is an important part of a relationship between a man and a woman. If one party is not happy, it won’t work.
Hi Sofia,
I completely agree. If one person requires much display of affection and the other party has less of that need it is not an easy thing to work out. He will give me affection but I know he’s thinking in the back of his mind that it’s not enough for me. I need lots of hugging, kissing and foreplay which he of course avoids as he cannot consummate those actions. No matter how much I tell him it’s not critically important he doesn’t believe me and continues to feel that he cannot fulfill my desires. Sometimes I think I’m kidding myself because I want him in my life, and just can’t seem to give up hope that he could be in love with me if he’d just allow himself to do so. If I were to meet someone locally who could me take out and be physically present more often this dilemma wouldn’t be so big. Anyway, that’s my mission, but to be done slowly, without desperation and using all my “spidey senses” as the English say.
sammi
Doesn’t sound like commitment to me. I was in something similar for 2 years, he finally addmited he was never into me the way I was into him. Ouch, hard to hear and I have not spoken to him since. It still hurts, and I’m still getting over it. Gotta be done.
So much excellent food for thought on this site. Love how you put things in a way that’s so easy to understand… down to earth. Thanks for doing what you do.
-Katharina
When you meet a person who is right for you and you are right for him, you won’t even have to think about the stages. It will develop naturally and mutually. That’s my thought. Based on the experience and the perspective I learned from this site. Anything drastic or stagnant is wrong.
At 47 yrs old I am like a teenager dating…. had been with my husband since I was 15 and he died from cancer and it is like I had no idea of ACs or UMs even existing… but over the past 5 yrs since my husband’s death (who was wonderful to me by the way!!!) I have had a lot of heart break, eyes being opened, trust being dwindled and hope that there are “good” men out there at my age is almost starting to seem an impossibility. I am fighting every day not to go in to the “I hate men” “men are pigs” category because I never ever thought that way before. But let me tell ya after interacting with ACs wow do you start to think What The???? This post of yours, and I’ve read A LOT of them, has spoken to me the most by giving me simple terms on how to date, think about it all and know what is logical and healthy. THANK YOU SO VERY VERY MUCH! It is odd haven’t been asked out even in a while which panics me some thinking crazy thoughts like “I’m going to be an old maid or I’ll never have sex again” hahaha but I am looking at this time to really get my values defined, boundaries in place and love myself enough to know it is OK to be me and to call out behaviors or boundary busters when for some reason I would hold it all in and thinking “that’s ok”…. why!? Oh yeah my dad was my first EUM and I guess my first knee jerk reaction to dating was to fall right in to Florence Nightingale or try to find my worth in winning over some man who pretty much treats me like an option, an annoying woman being too sensitive or that I am an unwanted intrusion into his life, oh yeah unless he is bored, needs an ego stroke or sex… that’s right then he texts, not calls, and says hey what’s up wanna get together tonight? ughhhhhhhh!!!! Thank you God so much for this site. What may have taken me even more years to figure out is being shortened with all of the knowledge and insights shared here not just by Natalie but I read all of the emails too and learn so much – thank you to alllll of you!!
rosecoloredglasses,
I can relate to what you are saying. I was married to an honest, loyal guy who died too young. I did not date right away, and had no idea there were so many ACs, EUs, Commitment-phobes, players, etc. out there. I agree it can make you lose trust that there are any good people out there, and it seems to be very difficult to find them.
I recently had to end a relationship with a guy that I thought wanted progression in our relationship, but it never went anywhere, and felt like we were on a constant dating cycle. I recently asked him to move in with me and his answer was a bunch of excuses why he couldn’t. Then, he thought he’d just stay over night with me while still living apart. There were lots of hints that he was seeing other people (or at least wanted to), so I ended it. I need someone I can trust. Without trust there is no relationship.
I like the idea of commitment phases, as Natalie states, and from now on, when there is no progression, I’m going to exit to protect myself from becoming even more involved or attached to people who want to use or manipulate me.
Best of luck to you. I hope we both can someday find a trustworthy person.
ThreeDLife
Rosecoloredglasses
Yep, at 53, I am in much the same situation. I had a very good marriage, a wonderful, bright, healthy, responsible man which ended about 9 years ago. I was used to being treated with great respect and was really naive to the presence of cheaters, assclowns, narcs, etc. Couple that with a certain amount of trauma from facing pretty serious poverty and going through recovery from breast cancer completely alone except for a dog and a cat, who were wonderful. Since then, I recovered financially and health wise (8 years cancer free!) but feel I am doomed to either settle for someone who has little to offer or be totally Aline forever. Part of it may be that I was spoiled by my ex; when one was married to a retired Dean, social/environmental justice advocate who went to many a protest w/me, guy who kept himself in excellent shape, took good care of his extended family, had great conversation: settling for some dude that made bad life’s decisions, says he does not want to grow up or be responsible (at 70!), doesn’t take care of himself, won’t work or help me w/my farm, that I am not at all attracted to, is a serious let down. I have warded off 7, count em,7, of these in a year and a half. Add to this, two cheaters, on line liars, and one dude on the other side of the continent that wanted to go from 0 to 4 who didn’t know me from Adam. The past few years have been a huge lesson in the application of BR detection skills. Gordon is right; there are decent men out there (I meet them when they’re here as tourists in the summer) but not everywhere and I do feel as though since the 90s when I married, there has been overall breakdown in community, accountability, in standards of behavior. Many simply don’t want to put in the effort anymore.
I so understand where you are writing from Noquay. I think social media, really has made it all too easy to get by, live one’s life on a diet of simple fantasy, and sadly at times easy one click porn.
I think some of these men and indeed women, do think to themselves ,why go out and explore and risk with a real human being, when I can have five fairytale/action film scenarios/non relationships, in my imaginative head, with someone, many one’s that I am invested in/tricking on the internet.
Everything is on line, everything is out there, everything can be got out of really quickly. Effort means you have finally embraced growing up.
Louise, You make a great point about living in a fantasy world. People have to decide if they want a real relationship, complete with its ups and downs and occasional imperfections. Porn-addicts wreak havoc on the psyche of those unfortunate enough to be involved with them. I speak from experience. As Natalie says, an addiction of any kind is a Flat Out Code Red. Learned this the hard way. I think it’s all too common in our technology-focused world.
Rosecolouredglasses
There are many people posting on here that have come from a good relationship of many years, love trust respect, and have woken up in another time and space. It’s a real shock to the system to realise that the internet trolls, waste of time people, just plain bad people, assclown’s et al seem to have taken over the earth when we didn’t notice and are thriving.
I’m not blaming the internet, as it’s a great tool for many things and it’s how I found BR at a very low ebb in my life.
It’s a shining light in the darkness, Nat’s posts and the comments from the readers are priceless, I have learned so much since I got out of my emotional time warp of 20+ years and am learning how to navigate my way forward.
It can only get better for all of us.
“The fact that someone is in a relationship or married doesn’t mean that they are committed.”
Oh yes. I learned the hard way that marriage doesn’t equal commitment. Commitment equals commitment and it’s demonstrated through actions, not promises or words or one ‘special’ day.
“You show up, often willing to do the work of the both of you (overcompensating and being a blame absorber is never a good move)…”
And this is another of the many of my ‘I’ve done all the dumb things’. I’ve finally learned not to fix/help/counsel/carry just because I can and I’m invested in the outcome. Gosh it’s been a hard one to kick but I do eventually learn from my mistakes (with a little help from BR!) and I am not setting myself up for a relationship that is anything less than co-piloted. I want, deserve and am worth a relationship that is a joint ad/venture.
oh dear reading all the comments makes me very sad. Let me tell you a story when i was a young lad I took up gliding my instructor told me to treat the aircraft as a woman when you sit in her you will fall in love with her, as you can take her were she rightly belongs up in the blue sky and she will fall in love with you, treat her gently if you want her go right very very gently turn the control column and she will respond not[manipulating],push over the column hard and she will stall and fall out of sky come on ladies there are some nice guys out there don:t give up hope
Sorry Gordon, but it’s not up to a man to ‘take her where she rightly belongs to’. That is the whole point of BR, if I understand it correctly. And ‘come on ladies there are some nice guys out there’ sounds very patronizing to me.
I think Gordon was trying to be encouraging, but it’s pretty difficult these days to find nice guys, and even when someone appears to be “nice” on the surface, you can sometimes find out later that they have other facets to them that aren’t so nice (such as addictions or lack of integrity). This is why, as Natalie states above, the progression of a relationship is so important, as is getting to know someone before you get too heavily invested. I hope to put these learnings to practice in a future relationship, assuming I can find someone genuine, honest and trustworthy.
Nice guys are overrated. I’d rather find a good man.
I never give up hope and I know there are some nice guys out there, I even know a few. The world certainly isn’t full of assclowns.
Thanks for posting, it’s really good when a guy gets on here and puts in his 10 cents worth.
Interestingly enough, I hung out with a known commitment-phobe last weekend. We snuggled and watched Netflix. We had a good time. I texted him to let him know I had a nice time. That’s it. He responded, “I had a great time, but I am not sure it can happen on a regular basis.” Nice. Oh, and I found out he is still dating a girl in another state. Really? I’m sickened.
@tiffrbug,
I would have then text back: “Um..who said anything about it happening again at all? Lol.”
Then block his a**.
No need to be sickened, just relieved you dodge a bullet.
xx
Thanks Gordon…. I needed to see your words… I don’t want to give up on hope but it is easy to start to go there when you had something so wonderful in a relationship for 26 years and then the past 5 what I have been experiencing is a whole lot of self absorbed people…. but I will NEVER give up on hope! Thank you for the encouragement!!
Hi Natalie, thanks for all the great information and advice on this site. I have really needed it in the last few weeks. 10 years ago I went No Contact with an ex who I just couldn’t shake off and, having been in a relationship with him for 6 years, I had ended up as the Other Woman. After 10 years of silence I had a Facebook friend request and message from him 8 weeks ago. Thinking I was in a better place and much more able to deal with him now I accepted. There followed 5 weeks of messaging and flirting and I built up a whole new outcome in my head – he’d changed, he’d missed me (he said he had), he wanted to try again. We met up (on his terms of course!) in London for 2 nights and we slept together, caught up and I found myself becoming the anxious, paranoid, insecure woman I was 10 years ago! When I got home the messages died out within a week – he had disappeared. My attempts to contact him were ignored and eventually I received a message that he had been busy and “had to sort his head out a bit”. Frankly, I have been left totally screwed up. 8 weeks ago, before he got in touch, I felt better than I had in years (although I hadn’t had a relationship in those 10 years). Now I feel like i’ve gone back to the beginning, like i’ve been totally used again, my self esteem has gone through the floor and although, on the face of it, I can see what an asshole he is I am still trying to find excuses for him! Anyway I have gone No Contact again yesterday and I am finding the strength from all your great advice and all the similar situations. What a terrific blog. Thank you Natalie.
That sounds truly painful, littlevic. I’m sending you a virtual cup tea and sympathy. I understand how it can feel like you are back to where you were all those years ago, I bet you will find that you are in fact stronger than you think, and that you’ll re-center more quickly than the first go-round.
That man is not a good person. He is unethical, cowardly, and emotionally stunted. Think how sad it is that, after all these years, he is STILL that way — he hasn’t grown or evolved.
Stay close to BR, devour Natalie’s posts, maybe sign up for her Self-Esteem class if you can (it’s great — has hugely changed me for the better). Hang in there. It won’t always be this painful and hard. Better days ahead.
you need a new relationship..even to just get over that one, 10 years is wayyyyy too long
This can be applied to so many things. Great post.
Littlevic, if they can do anything really well it is charm their way back into our lives whether it’s been days, weeks, months or years and we keep hoping THIS TIME IT’S DIFFERENT because we know how hard we are working on ourselves to be healthier surely they must be also?! Ummm nope. On the rare occasion yes, but generally that is the way they know how to serve their needs and are too much concerned with all of the rest. I am sorry that happened – but please don’t be too down on yourself it is natural to think maybe after 10 years there’s been good changes. The fact you recognize it all and even posting here about it is a healthy step in valuing you!!! You go girl!
rosecoloredglasses..that is an extremely important point you make in that we do not assume the other is on a healthier road when we ourselves embark on it. That has been a screwed up thinking on my part growing up and it is good you reinforce that it is not so i.e. we are making the sincere healthy effort for us and they have also (especially since a good deal of time has passed) which is not the case. And unfortunately for Littlevic this has been the case hence assumptions are truly false indicators/indications!
A case of miscommunication or assholery? You be the judge. And, either way, what’s the best way to handle? My boyfriend of 3 months, (maybe in the stage 2 area- we agreed we were in like and a couple), got upset with me the other night for asking if he was “okay.” He was trying to get things started, so to speak, and it appeared he’d too much to drink as he wasn’t up to the task, per se. He said it bothered him that I asked. Then was mad when I apologized. He said he “was not a little boy” and would let me know when something was wrong. Then instructed me to quote/unquote “stay in character” that he was trying to get things going. I felt uncomfortable at that point and decided to leave. He ran out and kept yelling he’d done nothing wrong, saying “this is who I am.” He didn’t seem concerned about me. I apologized for leaving, explaining I felt uncomfortable with his carrying on. I told him I realized he meant nothing by it, but the mood was gone. I meant nothing by what I’d said either. I asked if we were good. He told me to leave. I reached out again, asking if we could talk. No response. I haven’t heard from him since. Your thoughts?
EB
You’ve only been going out for 3 months and this is still the discovery stage in getting to know each other.
You didn’t do anything wrong when you asked him if he was okay knowing he had a little too much to drink.
The fact that he turned it around and tried to make his lack of performance your fault and then angrily turned on you is a red flag.
The fact that he told you to leave when you were already out the door feeling extremely uncomfortable (your gut and internal boundaries are telling you something here) with his attitude and behaviour and after you apologised for asking a perfectly normal question (not sure why you apologised for being concerned) he has now gone ‘dark’ and is ignoring you, is a big red flag.
You’re not responsible for what he does, you are only responsible for what you do. If his is how he behaves after only 3 months, the writing is on the wall. He’s not worth it, don’t try and contact him any more. If he is truly sorry for what happened he would have done something about it long before now. That’s what guys do when they really like you and don’t want to lose you.
My verdict – move on, there are plenty more fish in the sea and this guy needs throwing back.
Absolutely agree with your assessment and advice, Pauline.
EB, while I don’t assign much value to “magic numbers” in terms of dating timelines, I have found that the 3-month mark is where the rubber starts to hit the road. People’s real selves emerge, esp. in conflict situations.
This fella showed you who he is under duress; even after it sounded like you were being thoughtful and sympathetic to him.
His rage, and then his silence, are huge red flags snapping in a strong wind.
Good for your for honoring your gut feeling of unease, and extricating yourself from that volatile situation. Those are good boundaries at work — your personal electric fence is doing its job well.
Rarely does a guy actually say “This is who I am!” so early on. So, he’s letting you know! Believe him.
EB,
Guy is definitely an AC. Go NC for at least 6 months. When you get some perspective, you’ll thoroughly see what a dingleberry he is.
Good on you for recognizing a potential time bomb. Run!
xx
People do what they want. It’s all in their actions. As I’ve said, people do what they want but don’t always say what they want to do.
Even bad long term relationships are built. Note to myself.
thank you ladies for your comments I really did not want be patronizing and to liken a woman to a machine,far from it it takes two to tango but sometimes its better to walk alone than be with someone going in the wrong direction what I will say again, never give up hope the best is yet come this hapended to me,from the depths of despair I found an unbeleivable love it was founded on three things RESPECT<RESPECT RESPECT
Thank you Natalie! You are an angel. Whenever I start missing my ex – with whom I was on a permanent date for four years – I come here for your wisdom.
What do you think of the idea of Co-dependency? Is it a real disorder; do we really need to attend 12-step meetings in order to learn how to have a decent relationship? I would love to hear your take on this. Happy Anniversary!
I don’t know about Natalie but I think the idea of codependency is a scam. There *is* something wrong going on in the so-called “codependent” situation–you do have a partner with serious problems and a partner trying to be supportive–but the wrongness is coming from the partner with the problem, not from the supportive partner. If you were in a healthy relationship and trying to help your partner through a bad patch, depression for instance, no one would call it codependency. But because the problem partner is not as committed to the relationship as the helpful partner is, suddenly it’s all the helpful partner’s fault. I hesitate to use the term “victim-blaming” here, that’s not quite accurate, but it’s in that neighborhood as far as how the pop-psych “gurus” address the issue.
Been reading these other comments and I see a common theme. Actions mean everything, words are mere expulsions of hot air. Early on when you meet someone, be it at work, in your community, on line, do they actually do what they said they would? If you ask for help, do they show up? Do they show up on time? At work, do they do the work on a committee as promised, show up for meetings? On a date, do they show up on time, are well groomed, are present emotionally? People that consistently fail to show up, to follow through, to be present, do not care about you, do not respect you, and as such are not worth our time and effort.
Yep noquay, the #1 indicator of people who do not really care and are only pushing their own agenda, wants and needs is that they talk and talk and talk a good game but there is rarely any positive action taking place.
The talk is glib and sounds real and because we don’t tell a whole bunch of lies and are basically honest, we get blindsided and end up believing them, only to find there is no substance to anything they say.
People who are upfront and honest have actions that match, they do, they don’t talk.
I will listen to anyone, smile, nod, maybe agree or not and until I see positive action, especially from men as many of them are by far the worst offenders of slinging the BS around so they can get what they want and me as a person with my wants or needs doesn’t actually come into the equation, I won’t pay any attention to what they say.
It works for me.
Noquay,
Well said.
Think we have to also appreciate the instant gratification culture that is fed to us daily via the aggressive all pervading media. Everything is for the taking, everything should be happening now, and buy, buy, buy it today !!!
Building something, be it a healthy mature relationship, a communicating family, can’t be got by a instant click on Amazon, a download or a quick youtube visit.
Waking up to this is crucial for me, and re reading BR really helps.
Brilliant. Just bloody brilliant.
Unfortunately, I started to like a man I had a not so good attempt at a one night stand with. We have mutual friends. This weekend we all hung out and I’m pretty sure he left with a woman 10 years younger and 10x prettier than I. (I know; I know: comparing).
So I got really trashed, went to a house party, told some people (who are most likely far more established in the arts than I) that I am a brilliant artist and going to be famous, and then rolled around in the grass with their dog for an hour.
Once I made it home (didn’t drive/friends took me home). I cried a bit feeling foolish and ashamed. And of course about the guy.
Then I realized, what did I expect?? Did I think I could offer sex and expect this person to be interested just because I find them handsome? It was all silly of me.
I just got impatient and tried to forge something with a someone I was interested in. I tried to build a castle on air. All in my mind of course.
I guess I thought/hoped he’d give me another chance to prove I’m not sooo bad at sex? But even if it had been amazing, it’d still have been lonely sex with a stranger.
*hugs* Peanut
Stick to rolling around on the grass with dogs for a while 😉
I reread your post about that one night stand and it seems to me that handsome is as handsome does and there was nothing handsome about your experience with this bloke.
Believe me when I say that even if you are inexperienced sex should never ‘hurt like hell’. It’s not about you being bad at sex, it’s about you both being drunk and him being aggressive and hurting you. In fact I would say based on your account HE is the one bad at sex, not to mention being inconsiderate at a basic level! Not much to like there methinks.
I’m glad you’ve reflected honestly on your thoughts/actions and feel regret. That means you have motivation to learn from this experience and keep growing as you have been. Now it’s time for some compassion and self care.
A bit more dog thereapy wouldn’t go astray either 😀
Peanut- Doing this by phone so I hope this reply lands somewhere near your comment…anyway, I agree with Furry Whit Dogs. He is the one who is bad at sex. Not my one night stand guybut my two previous ex-boyfriends made it seem as if I was bad at sex too. Because I didn’t orgasm (and I don’t know how to fake it), they tried to blame me for it and I believed them. I thought I was bad at sex. The thing is, though, when I’ve madturbated, I orgasmed quite easily. Just because I didn’t with them, their fragile little egos would rather put me down. I didn’t orgasm with the one nighter, either but he didn’t seem to care as it was all about his getting his own release.
See, that’s the thing with selfishness. It’s all about the selfish person’s feeling good at the other person’s expense.
You’re worth so much more than how you’ve been treating yourself lately, Peanut. If you had a friend who was doing what you’re doing & beating herself up for the crime of- GASP!- liking a guy, what advice would you give her?
Oh and yes–more dog therapy is in order! 😉 🙂
I thought it was the end of my life and my world, but thanks to this site and everyone involved. I came across you lovely guys in April when I needed answers, I tried to follow every suggestion and advice even though it is not easy, but with your help, I am getting there. I never deleted his contact details, I wanted to make sure that I can make it with all resouces available, and I managed. Before coming to this site, I was cursing him every second of my life, but now I thank him because he made me realize that I deserve so much more, infact, it has always been ‘me,’ I have been allowing them to treat me this way, even though I thought I was PROTECTING myself. Now I know better, and I will never and ever allow anyone in this planet to give me less that what I worth. I am so happy now, and I cannot believe it, I will take my time to date again, but I am not in a hurry. Even though I was deeply hurt, but I thank God that it happened, I take it as my U-turn to the better ME. I will give more details/story later
Matlou, I can say the same. I am grateful that he happened in my life. As much pain as I have endured, he was the turning point in my life. I understand how you feel. Despite and amidst all the hurt, we feel renewed, hopeful, and like we are born again, and we are because it is new us.
Good for you!! It does get better when you start to choose you first.
That is a wonderful comment Matlou and very encouraging to me as I am just starting out on the journey myself. I finally hit “rock bottom” emotionally when the AC I was involved with asked me for an “awkward favor” to help him lie to his wife (separated) about rumors that he had cheated on her in the past. It was like a lightening bolt hit me right in the face. There is no going back for me now. I am on my way to a better ME. I am glad to hear you are doing so well. Thanks for sharing.
Hey ladies, and gentleman:) I just wanted to say thank you for the great advice it truly is helpful.
I did end things with my 3mth boyfriend I was seeing, though it was not fun. I reached out once more, (before seeing the advice on here), texting him that we could work things out. That maybe we both had a little too much to drink, & it was a classic case of miscommunication. He texted me back in a caring tone saying we could talk and work it out. But, his last sentence was, “The only thing that bothered me was your ability to leave after what I said.” I read that as, ‘we can talk as long as you know you were wrong.’ Admittedly, if we’d talked, I might’ve accepted that I could’ve handled things differently. I think he could’ve handled things differently too. The way I read this though, it didn’t seem he was willing to take responsibility of anything. Did I read this wrong? I ended up telling him I enjoyed our time together, but it wasn’t necessary to talk anymore. That I wanted to be friends. Since you all are on the outside looking in, do you believe this was a fair decision?
EB
Not sure if you will read this.
I think you are wise to let him go, his comment puts the blame on you and you interpreted it correctly. He doesn’t want to take responsibility for his own actions and thinks you are at fault. Another red flag when someone isn’t able to see their own part in what’s going on or doesn’t want to admit they were wrong.
He has showed you who he is and I can say with 100% certainty that things with him will get worse the longer you decide to stay. Too many red flags after so short a time and your internal boundaries told you to leave, please don’t ignore them, this is what keeps us safe. The problem comes when we ignore or over-ride the warning bells going off inside us, something I will never do again, if I’m getting that feeling I back right off and it invariably turns out I’m right to do so.
You had a golden get out opportunity and you took it which is all to your credit. You may be able to be friends with this guy only when enough time has passed and you no longer have any feelings towards him, and, as Nat says, he is actually friend worthy.
Don’t second guess yourself, it’s too easy to fall into that trap, your first instinct that something wasn’t right is the correct one.
Take care EB
Pauline,
I love your answer.
When a person truly does care and respect you they are there for you.
My healing process was not easy guys, I had to take a leave from work (four weeks) because I was always crying whenever I think of him, and I mourned him like he was my first and last love, I talked with friends and family, they were always there for me, but they never understood clearly because they have never been there, that is why I love this lovely family (we understand each other as we all have been in the same situation).
When I first came to this site, I was always in tears, because I could always relate to each and every story. This is my second month with no contact, before I did not want to meet him at all, but now I feel so confident that I can even just say hello, give him my best smile and pass him, I know he will not believe it because I was so much into him.
@EB, I do not think being friends at early stage is ok, I think you need to heal first because you are still valnerable
Natalie,
For many years I could not seem to get the clue that you just pointed out, if they cannot commit to the basics, forget the rest of the relationship. I guess out of my desperation, I accepted crumbs believing, erroneously, that if I accepted crumbs they would eventually bring me a meal. How absurd.
I listened to you on the radio and was blown away by your clarity, and your direct no-nonsense approach to help the suffering women. Thank you for your commitment to getting your message out there in the world.
I can’t seem to move past stage zero these days. So everything else seems like an uphill struggle. I just feel something has changed, maybe it’s the whole online mentality of no real value or substance anymore. There’s plenty of ladies who think they are in committed relationships, they don’t know their guy an is on dating sites or hook up site! Certainly has opened my eyes! I really don’t think people are ‘together’ anymore, they are two separate entities getting what they want and putting themselves first.
Cherry
I know how you feel, I feel the same way about online dating, seems so flimsy and fragile, I know some people find each other and it sticks, but hasn’t happened for me with online guys, not yet anyways. Hang in there.
Have been used as booty call by someone who has girlfriend for two month, I thank God its all over now. As a take steps to recover. Thank you ladies!
My ex couldn’t commit, couldn’t give me an answer to my question “where is this going?”. He kept avoiding the moving in together issue. After three years of being in a relationship, he broke up with me and immediately started dating the girl that had been his physiotherapist and his best friend’s ex. She knew about us because he told her every problem we had.
I’ve always suspected that he had cheated on me. Asked, even begged them to tell me the truth (i’m not proud of that), but they kept denying everything. It hurt like hell.
They moved in together less than one year into their relationship. Recently i’ve learnt they’re getting married. It’s been almost three years since our break-up. I know i shouldn’t still be heartbroken but i am. He was my first love and our relationship and the way it ended (horribly) had a huge impact on me.
I always thought that my ex was an EUM, but now i’m thinking that it wasn’t him, it was me. He was just emotionally unavailable to me. The fact he can make this huge “for the rest of our lives”-commitment to her and couldn’t even say “i will still love you tomorrow” to me, is testimony to that.
I just started no contact, again, with a guy I thought I was at stage 3 with. It all came to a head when he was on holiday, I got very sick, and he didn’t even pick up the phone to speak to me. This is, I have to add, after a whole year of him disappearing, giving the “I want you…I don’t” attitude, compartmentalizing the relationship, and generally dodging any intimacy. I’m ashamed I took him back so many times!
I unfortunately was the woman Nat describes…..the woman who talks too much. I thought if I just pointed out why our dynamic was unhealthy, he would care enough to work with me; he said he would…lying twat. The incident with the phone call (or lack of it) proved to be my proverbial “final straw”, especially after he shifted the blame to my “cold” demeanour the last time I called him, didn’t feel a call would be welcome, didn’t want to spoil his holiday…..say huh?….at least I DID call, ya git!!It all seems so petty and childish as I type this, but it proved to be my “epiphany” even if it was just a small thing.
I am now in a mental situation, where I am not attracted to him anymore…..his inability to step up, and give the basics has rendered him unappealing to me now. I attribute this successful shift in thought processing to Baggage reclaim, and all who contribute, because it’s taught me I AM worth the basics, and I’m not scared to raise my standards anymore. No doubt he will contact me, try and guilt trip me because he will judge my sudden halt of contact “unfair, and cruel”, he’s a fab manipulator! but I hope to stay strong; he has shown he can’t be counted on in a long term relationship. I can’t get the year back that I spent in anguish, pain and floods of tears…he will never understand how shot my self esteem is now, but at least I made the decision to end the shit.
I’ve been through many relationships. I’m usually a Florence Night-G and they are mostly some sort of party animal/addict that I meet in a questionable scenario, like a bar. I just finally realised this as I approach 30 years old. I am not repeating the relationship the process in my 30’s, I can assure you that.
Its like a switch flipped and now I can spot a Mr.DO-Little from a mile away. Ever since I found this website 2 years ago, I don’t get heartbroken. BEYOND thankful.
Signed,
In Charge.
THIS:
“I’d be damn scared of dating and being emotionally honest if I thought that me saying, “I like you. Let’s spend more time getting to know each other”, was going to be taken as an iron-clad forever agreement.”
Precisely what I said to a guy recently. And that it is important to have the intention to build it into something (not saying it will eventually happen). That I didnt want to start something if the other person was fully convinced that there was no future. Simple, non-threatening, non-scary language. BOOM!…Apparently it was too much for him to even show up and be consistent. Its not hard to do. Decency and integrity! You should write this for teenagers to learn in school, NML! 🙂
Why are so many scared to make these simple initial decision? Thanks NML, I need to hear that it was not wrong for me to expect this simple thing and more, that it was perfectly ok for my to voice my thoughts in this matter.
Oh to add to his madness, he didnt want to go out with me anymore because he didnt miss me when I wasnt around (“what?! Ive known you for a FEW weeks..whats with needing to miss me/each other??”) (BR translation = loves drama and high intensity)..and then complained that I went too fast(BR translation = sure, its all her fault!) …whatttt..where do these people get their reasons from..phew..am I glad I got away from this one 🙂
Needed this today Natalie. Brilliant again. Gold.