“If you want to be the girlfriend, the wife, have a relationship, have a future, then you’re playing the wrong role here – you don’t take up the Other Woman role when it’s not what you want and it’s not going to help you get what you want. If this is who you want to be with, you’re going about it in entirely the wrong way. The way to show that you want to be in a relationship is not be an affair partner. The way you show that you want to be an affair even if you say otherwise is if you keep being there and you entertain it.” This is what I said to a friend recently.
Many of us are guilty of believing that we can abandon our boundaries, values, and sense of self in the pursuit of love and happiness and then we wonder why we often feel like we’re in love on our own and are not very happy. We expect to deviate greatly off course and to still end up at the same ‘destination’ or achieve the same goals without having to actually conduct our lives in a way that’s conducive to this.
We wonder why we’ve been typecast or pigeonholed into a role…that we’ve chosen by way of participation.
When being in a loving relationship is really important to you, it doesn’t make sense to be with someone who is unable to love, or whose idea of love and commitment is sporadic highs and frequent lows yielded from hurting you, breaking up and getting back together. It also doesn’t make sense to be with someone who is still not over their ex, or abusing substances or you, or keeps telling lies, or who is cheating on someone else.
Doing things that make you unhappy / detract from you and expecting them to make you happy and to add to your life doesn’t make sense. The question you have to ask yourself when you say that you want one thing but you do something entirely different is, how serious are you? Where is the mentality and the actions that support your values and the direction that you say you’re headed in?
Trust me when I say that you’re just not that serious if you say that you want to have a relationship and the whole kit and caboodle and yet you’re playing the third wheel in an affair, are in a casual relationship while claiming to have a relationship mentality and expectations, or are participating in any kind of unhealthy relationship and expecting it to spontaneously combust into the relationship that you want.
There is this fear that if we have boundaries, uphold some reasonable standards in our lives and we don’t agree to participate in half-arsed situations, that we’ll ‘scare away’ the person that we want or that we won’t be in with a shot should they get themselves together. This.Is.Bullsh*t.
For a start, if you having boundaries and standards and being unwilling to participate in an affair, to have sex on the first date or sooner than you would like, to participate in a casual relationship, or whatever is going to scare someone off, then they’d better stay scared. If that’s the type of thing that sends them running for the hills, you never stood a chance anyway.
Secondly, you are not operating a Layaway or Try Before You Buy Scheme. Many have gone before you (including me) and many will come after you and no good ever comes of selling yourself in on a low ‘one time offer’ with a view to being tested out and ‘upgraded’ later. The person who would accept you giving them a low introductory ‘APR offer’ does not appreciate the ‘sacrifices’ and when you have the hidden or even out in the open agenda of having them pay you back at a later date with the relationship that you want, you’re more often than not left empty handed.
If you don’t want to be typecast or pigeonholed then don’t typecast or pigeonhole yourself.
Relationships are not like some jobs where you can work your way up from the post room to director of the company. You are busting your own boundaries when you deviate from values you profess to have and take shortcuts and even inadvertent u-turns out of love, lust and ego.
Being in a casual relationship when you are unable to handle being treated or regarded casually and in fact want a bonafide committed relationship, is like putting a chicken bone in the oven and expecting a roasted chicken with all of the trimmings to come out. It’s the same for affairs and other unhealthy relationships.
Knowing which role you want to take up is absolutely not about playing games – it’s about recognising that you shoot yourself in the foot if you opt into lesser roles and sell yourself short. You may think that it makes sense because some of the things that you’re doing appear to be the ‘hallmarks’ of what you’re aiming for but these don’t mean anything if the net result of all of this participation does not yield the landmarks – commitment, progression, balance, intimacy, consistency, shared values, love, care, trust, and respect within a mutually fulfilling relationship.
The way to be clear about who you are and what you’re willing to participate in is to be clear about who you are and only participate in situations that reflect this. There is no point in saying “I’m not the type of person that does….” while doing something that contradicts this.
They’re going to take you at your action and form an opinion on that basis.
When we conduct ourselves with self-esteem by having boundaries and values, only two things are going to happen: the person who wants to engage in a mutual relationship will respect them and the person who isn’t and wasn’t going to respect them anyway is going to walk. Either way, each situation leaves you with your sense of self intact.
Having boundaries and expecting them not to be busted up never makes someone who was meant to be in your life leave, so if they don’t hang about, consider it a blessing in disguise.
It’s actually a lot easier to be with someone who you don’t have to clobber over the head to share the relationship that you want or to treat you decently who you share similar values with, than it is to be involved with someone who may have some elements of what you claim you want but who as a whole cannot meet your expectations. Not only will it be like reverse engineering an unhealthy relationship but then you end up feeling like you have to ‘undo’ their perception of you as well.
No matter what ideas you have about what could happen ‘if only’ or being crazy in love, going down the path of second guessing yourself, compromising you, and going off course means that you’re moving away from who you are and what you say that you want. Get behind you, stop apologising for having limits, and make sure that the role you take in relationships leaves you with your self-esteem intact.
Your thoughts?
The Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship is now available from my bookshop along with with Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl. You can also check out my ecourses.
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“…but then you end up feeling like you have to ‘undo’ their perception of you as well.” So, so true!!! You can profess to be different all you want, but the person you are messing around with has formed their opinion and it’s damn hard to change it. Been there…done that!
This is so true. Posts like this have helped me stay strong at times when I’ve toyed with the idea of accepting something less than what I want or deserve. As a result, Natalie, your posts have saved me a lot of heartbreak (more than I’d already experience at the hands of my Mr. Unavailable).
Last year I wrote quite a bit about a man (married) from church who pursued me, future faked with me and ended it (rightly so), but not in a nice way. It’s taken me a long time to get over it, and I make an effort to avoid him at church (luckily, I haven’t had to see him this summer). As fate would have it, someone else has entered my life, someone who is unhappily married and, while hasn’t pursued me with the same vigor, has made it very, very clear that he’s very much in “like” with me. This is so hard for me because I’m really trying to be strong and to respect myself. But, I have to admit, I’m incredibly lonely and going out with a girlfriend or doing other activities don’t always help dispel the loneliness. I don’t want to be in the same situation again. And it seems like only unavailable guys are attracted to me…that may not be completely true, but it’s how I view things. I don’t want to be the “other woman” with anyone, and I’m trying hard to hold to my values. It’s just hard sometimes.
Amy, I felt the same as you did few weeks ago, I felt lonely and thought at least I had an AC who can “entertain” me from time to time. Who I was kidding? MYSELF! Grace always gave me wonderful advice here(thank you Grace!)that we need to heal first, BE Ready for available guy, to work on our values and boundaries. It is already great that you do not want to be OW, these MM say/do anything to “have a cake and eat it”, but that what we want? NO!!! We deserve so much better Amy, stay strong and positive, you are not alone, we are here for you. Hugs xx
Thanks Little Star! You’re so right. Trying to be strong all the time is tough. But unavailable men just aren’t worth it, and I know this. I wish my heart would be rationale about this, though.
Hey Amy,
Your comment is precisely what Natalie is talking about. If you want to be pigeonholed as the OW in order to dispel the lonelies, we know that doesn’t work, right? I’d never been lonelier as an OW. I think I remember that you described it as pretty awful too. Trust and stick to your boundaries and values. No MARRIED/ATTACHED men. Don’t let loneliness become an excuse to become more isolated and lonely. I thought only unavailable guys (particularly married ones)were attracted to me too. Now I’m starting to see a difference. There are unavailable people out there, including unhappily and happily married ones. The difference is they no longer get the time of day from me. It’s like dog poo on the hiking trail. Its there but you don’t have to step in it. EU’s are everywhere but you don’t have to engage. BTW, I’ve only met one happily married guy who wanted to “have a fling”. First EX husband rolled around via email claiming he was very much in love with his wife but wanted to know if I was up for a fling. Talk about a little vomit in my throat. He got a giant heave hoe. Otherwise, most of the MM’s are unhappily married. That would be their problem, not ours. Our problem is engaging them in the first place. Conduct yourself with self-esteem, boundaries, and values. I’d flush the unhappily married man in “like” with you unless you want to sign up to be the unhappy OW hoping for the roast chicken with all the trimmings. Don’t move away from what you say you want, assuming you know what you want? I really didn’t for a very, very long time. If you want to be an OW again, you know the drill. It can only dispel the lonelies for a while. It’s a fix. Good luck to you and I’m sending unOW vibes your way. You/we deserve better and can do better. I’m having lunch at the Yacht Club tomorrow. Don’t know if the guy is a dweeb (it’s an online guy) but he’s single/divorced, made plans in advance, called when he said he would after only a few emails, and arranged the date. As bad as dating can be,it hasn’t been as bad as being an OW…don’t know if that’s saying much!
Thanks runnergirl.Maybe I don’t know what I want (I thought I did). But what I don’t want is to end up feeling lonelier and worse than I do. What I went through last summer was miserable and I’ve had enough of that! Good luck with your date!
Good for you Amy. Sometimes it is good start to know what you don’t want. Natalie is really spot on when it comes to setting boundaries and following through. Boundaries and limits definitely weed out the riff-raff fast! I finally sat down and wrote out my goals and boundaries. It really helps when you have to put something on paper. It made me think what the hell do I want.I thought about you (and everything I’ve read on BR) today on my date. He was nice/charming/intelligent (except for aliens building the pyramids), a member of a private yacht club, private tennis club, and lives in a prestigious area. Thanks to Nat, I was curious why he wasn’t at work so I asked (it’s the last week of summer for a teacher which is why I wasn’t). Seems he’s unemployed. Seems he lied about his age, he’s 58 not 48. Seems he lied about not smoking. And he lied about his “athletic build”! Since we really hit it off (according to him), he wanted to go for a walk along the beach and get ice cream. That’s when I thought of you. I really wanted to walk along the beach and get ice cream but not with a liar. I declined. Maybe start your boundaries with “No Liars”. That’ll filter out flirting with MM’s as well as having ice cream with unemployed lying yacht salesmen who can’t even own their age. Flush and Next!
@runner girl I didn’t mean to laugh but your account of your date did make me giggle at your detective like quizzing of him! “I did want to get to the beach and have ice cream but not with a liar”… Honestly some men that are online are just outrageous hey! You sound so switched on with what you want, I commend you for just getting the hell out of there. I agree too it’s like the angel of Natalie there with us in these interactions with men. I’ve recently got back to London after 9 months home in Australia. Have been feeling a bit lonely lately and so joined an online dating site. The jerks I have already been contacted by in the last week has totally put me off again. I can feel myself falling back into bad habits of getting short term fixes when what I would like is someone decent. I am going to delete my profile right away and get out into the real world and be true to who I am – a girl who is fun and sociable and has a lot of friends who are fantastic. Be nice to think one day a great guy will slot in to the picture for the right reasons, not just so I feel needed when I’m a bit down. I hope your next date is better Runnergirl… Thank you for sharing, it’s such a great reminder to all to live by their values and think of yourself first. Happy walks on the beach with ice-cream! Xxx
Yikes. Your experience is precisely what I don’t want to go through, and perhaps that’s why I’ve seemingly made myself somewhat “unavailable.” I realize my behavior is contradictory, but I truly am tired of lying, deceiving men, and that’s why I’ve been shying away from entering the dating world. I’m sorry it didn’t work out for you, but I respect the fact that you’re easily able to move on. I’m still struggling with being able to do that, I guess.
Amy, I think I became involved with my best friend – who turned out to be a complete weirdo EUM in romantic settings – precisely because I was afraid to get out there and go through the dating process.
But now that I´m dating again I feel it´s much much better than the torment of an unavailable relationship. If you don´t like the guy you just move on, it´s no big deal and it allows for some laughs when you remember some of them.
The real trouble and heartache comes from trying to squeeze a relationship out of someone who is just not willing to do that for you.
@Bellaninha, I’m glad you laughed cos I sure did. I’ve got to stay very conscious regarding the short-term fix phenomenon associated with online dating. Good for you for getting out there in real life and being true to yourself. If a guy slots in great, meanwhile, you have your fun life with fantastic friends. Fabulous attitude.
@Amy, the reason I can move on (now)is because I’m making a conscious effort not to do the sand-castling-dreamer-fantasy thing based on reading Nat’s Dreamer book. Before BR, Yacht guy would have made for the perfect fantasy (except for the aliens) and I wouldn’t have even noticed he was a liar. The other thing is that I’m dead serious now. It’s a committed relationship based on HONESTY/TRUST, respect, and love or not. There’s no more saying X and doing Y. My actions are starting to support my values…and I’m starting to not have to think about it, analyze it, rationalize it etc. In fact, the minute he fessed up to being a liar, I started planning the rest of my day and I had a very productive one, albeit sans ice cream.
Runner,
“There’s no more saying X and doing Y. My actions are starting to support my values…and I’m starting to not have to think about it, analyze it, rationalize it etc. In fact, the minute he fessed up to being a liar, I started planning the rest of my day and I had a very productive one, albeit sans ice cream.”
Awesome attitude, love it, hoping to catch up with your progress. I’ve been reading for two years and can say you’ve come a long way! I changed my comment name recently because I had the feeling, for a while now, that an ex was reading my comments so I changed it.
I have a guy friend who on line dates, he lies about his age by 10 years and dyes his salt and pepper hair to look younger. We call him ‘liar and dyer’. It works, he gets dates with many unsuspecting women. I told him its pathetic and decided he is someone I don’t really want to hang around anymore. He represents what I hate. Your dating stories make me smile, sorry if that sounds bad. Laughter is the best medicine. You should write a book!
REPLY
hi guys,
i know i’m weighing in late, but something amy said made me want to.
nobody wants to meet liars and losers. least of all me. but i think our jobs in dating are to: have CLEAR, as runnergirl demonstrates, boundaries; use them to filter through the chaff; bounce the chaff (or ourselves away from the chaff); NOT believe that the chaff is a reflection on us or is all we can attract/deserve (although seeing who responds to us is very informative, isn’t it? hmmmmm?); be ok being on our own until someone decent shows up.
to put it another way, our job is to find qualified, appropriate men who think we are the bees knees and then decide if we reciprocate, not the other way around. and to keep moving ahead until such time as this happens. sorting through the chaff is just part of the job, the part in which a lot of us get stuck because we don’t believe in our worth and we don’t have the guts to stick it out.
and yes, amy, sorry love, something is up that only MMs chase you – but probably what’s up is that you’re not responding to, or are giving “go away” signals to, available guys.
when we are EU, and i include myself in this, we don’t even SEE the available men.
so – sort through the chaff; work on your own emotional availability; and KEEP GOING.
don’t stop and get stuck. you’re tired of lying, deceiving men because you keep choosing them. stop this. you might be alone for a while, but that’s better than being someone’s lollipop.
no lollipop.
big hug
Heartache
Once could be bad luck, two is a pattern. YOU are attracted to THEM. Why?
grace, good question. Hopefully it’s just a coincidence and not a pattern. I will say, this second guy is extremely charming and funny, so I think it was his sense of humor that hooked me in the first place.
Amy, try to figure out if there is something in you that prefers an unavailable man. Maybe you´re unavailable yourself? Do these schenarios trigger experiences from your childhood you need to confront?
Concentrate on you, don´t bother about why MMs come to you, the important thing is why you respond to them.
It’s not a coincidence. You engaged in the flirting with a married man, when you had a choice not to. When he flirted, you could of given him the idea you weren’t that woman. You gave him the green light instead. You seem to be in denial about your part in this, it isn’t just about why married men approach you, it’s why you respond. I can guarantee he has attempted to flirt with other women and they shut him down out of self respect. No coincidence. You deserve better. If you want a legitimate relationship with an available man, why do you attempt one with one who is clearly not. The attention can feel good, but think about how the attention is coming from a lying, cheating, married man who appears charming. Yuck. Come on heartache, make better choices. You can. Don’t take less than you deserve, even if you feel lonely, a married man isn’t the answer.
I agree… given that I struggle with the same issues. The key here is to stop and identify why you are drawn to unavailable men. I wont kid you, the exploration can be painful and frustrating, but this work is real, and this work is productive. Even if you feel on top of most things in your life, I recommend talking to a therapist (if you can afford it). I give you all the support in the world. I am still having problems cutting ties with the MM, even though the affair is over. He is only the latest in a string of UAM I have been involved in. I know that the problem is my own doing, but the corollary therein is that I am the one with the power to get out of these situations. Why do you not think yourself worthy of a real relationship? What scares you about a real relationship? Good luck…
Amy,
Just don’t pay too much attention if they are charming funny etc. If you don’t take the bait, you cannot get hooked.
There are lots of predatory MM around, but most women don’t pay them any attention whatsoever. They don’t even think about it too much. I have one who periodically makes VERY SUBTLE advances at my work but he never has and never will get anywhere, no matter how much he turns on the charm, I keep it professional. Never ever going there again, I am mortified.
My head does not zip up the back any more thank you very much.
Part of the reason you feel lonely and down now is because of the previous MM – so in what way is paying attention to another one going to do anything but add to your unhappiness?
Amy
Sometimes married people, men and women, like to flirt. From the safety net of being married they may feel it won’t be taken seriously. And sometimes a single person – like you – may flirt with a MM when they don’t REALLY want a proper relationship (even if they think they do) cos it feels “safe” (though it isn’t). A single person may be LESS flirty, cos it might actually go somewhere. At church some of the older gentlemen are way more flirtatious with me than the man has ever been. Does that mean they are seriously pursuing a relationship with me? God forbid (literally!)
So, when you are ready to date, (which will be when you’re not lonely anymore), maybe YOU be more proactive. Take note of who the single men are and YOU give them a green light and YOU find out about them rather than waiting for some MM to bowl you over with their sense of humour. And single men have a sense of humour too. You don’t have to fixate on a married one to get your laughs (though none of it seems that funny to me).
You are not that desperate that you need to be getting attention from other women’s husbands. Talk about pigeonholing yourself.
Grace,
I was thinking the very same thing – married men flirt more, very often – it’s a wee hobby for them. A single man who is actually looking for a relationship is less likely to flirt with all and sundry because he is more focussed on finding the right person than getting attention from random women. And he won’t be wanting to find himself in “awkward” situations with women who feel he has lead them up the garden path. The married flirt has the getout if you take it seriously – “you know I’m married!” or the classic line they all use “you know my situation” bc they don’t like to use the “M” word.
heartache amy
“I don’t want to be in the same situation again.”
Are you sure? You don’t seem very sure.
Why do you say that? What I’d like is a relationship with an “available” man, and with a man who is decent, nice and funny. I was married to someone who I thought fit that profile until he turned verbally and emotionally abusive. My marriage is no longer, and frankly, I’m discouraged in ever finding someone. I know that’s dramatic, but right now, it’s how I feel. It may be that I’m just not ready for another relationsihp at this point. I’m tired of the drama.
I think she might mean that there is a lesson you might not be learning here when you keep being tempted to go back to a situation that you know makes you unhappy.
You want to be respected, right? Its possible that these men are attracted to you because they see that you are lonely and that makes you an easy target for lazy men who want an easy ego stroke. They do not want what you want.
I know lonliness can be very demoralising but no other person can make you feel whole if you cant be whole by yourself first.
These men cant offer you what you want so they are not good enough for you. Remember that when you are tempted to accept the dregs they offer.
Amy, any chance there is another church to attend? If you already have a strong connection to the place I understand, but from my experience having to see that person can be discouraging and a negative reminder. Not that you have to change who you are or the things you love, but also no need in having that around you, when perhaps you can meet new (and quality) people elsewhere!
That certainly would be a solution, but I sing in the choir there with my sister and friends and it’s one of the few things that I do for myself.
LadyJane
That’s exactly what I mean.
Heartache Amy,
If what you imagine you’d “like is a relationship with an “available” man” then you have to question yourself about why you are tempted by,attracted to, getting into ‘things’ with unavailable men – and not only ‘unavailable’ but the most instantly obvious, most readily identifiable kind of unavailable = married.
You may not appreciate this yet but your words and your actions (or attractions!) are not matching. Both of these ‘truths’ are mutually exclusive:
a) I am hooked on/tempted by the ‘charms’ of another married man
b) I want to be with an available man
Both those things cannot be true or correct.
I can only go on what you post here – and from that it would seem that a) is happening at the expense of b).
So it would seem that you, yourself, are emotionally unavailable. I spent ten years in an on/off unavailable relationshit with an (unmarried) EUM and through that entire time I professed to want to be in a committed relationship (with him!). I realise now that my belief about what I really wanted was entirely false and have ben working hard to get to know myself better and my true motivations ever since. Perhaps you could read some more of Nat’s posts on what makes us attracted to unavailable men because, believe me, the fact that we are even interested in ‘married’ and/or’unavailable’ says more about us than it does about the men.
Thanks everyone. Maybe I’m making myself unavailable, and I probably don’t (yet) think I’m worthy enough to meet someone who IS available and who will be able to provide me with a relationship that is good for me. I suppose I’m giving signals to these unavailable men – okay, there were only two, but two too many, I guess. I hate to think that I’m coming across as being desperate, although I think I feel that way at times, so maybe that’s showing. I’m so disappointed in myself. I’m also hoping that my attraction to this second guy is not because he’s unavailable. I wish I could figure it out. Also, how do I know that I’m emotionally unavailable? I know this is a naive question, but I’m trying hard to sort it out so that I don’t keep making the same mistake over and over.
H.Amy,
I understand your confusion and that you ‘hope your attraction to this married guy is not because he is unavailable’
Let’s put it this way; if you were available yourself you would not be attracted to him at all for the very reason that you know he IS unavailable.
In other words, available people would not pose such a question to themselves, they would simply not be attracted to unavailable people. You are – right now. You know this man is unavailable and you are attracted to the idea of a ‘thing’ with him anyway- that speaks volumes. If you were truly available yourself you would find that idea very unattractive indeed.
Where I’m at now, I couldn’t think of anything more unattractive than the prospect of a ‘thing’ with a married man. I would baulk at the very idea. You don’t. So that’s what people here are talking about when they are saying you are not emotionally available; if you were, married men (however witty and charming) would go right under your radar as even a possible romantic attachment. Read more of Nat’s articles on emotional unavailability. Maybe also read Mr EU and the FBG.
Yes, I certainly wasn’t raised to ever consider anything with a married (or attached) man. I feel like such a fool. I guess I’m a little down on marriage right now because mine ended…and didn’t end well. I’m working on building up my self-esteem, but it’s hard some days. Thanks for your explanation, though. It makes sense. And when I think about the jerk who pursued me last summer, I find that unattractive, in all honesty.
Hey Amy, don’t take all this on your shoulders as ‘you’ appearing desperate to these men. You may show signals for being receptive, but this guy was going to hit on someone, if not you. Please don’t make his behavior your fault or about you(ie..you appearing desperate) Don’t beat yourself up. Yes, you did respond and then game was on for him, but it’s not too late to show him your strong and not that woman. Just make up your mind to stop engaging with him and move on. Think of this as a practice run for you to find your self respect. The up side to this is you recognize that this is unhealthy. A mistake you can fix and learn from.
Again, I hear you… and if I may be so bold, I encourage you to explore the feelings you had in your stifling marriage. I, too, had been long-term with someone who was controlling, angry, and had bottomless need. I was a shell of myself for almost ten years. This was at a time when all of my friends were pairing off, getting married, yet, I was stuck and unhappy. My relationship ended disastrously, and for the next two years, I used casual dating as an outlet to burn through my anger, grief, and frustration. I fancied that I fell in love the the MM, but I am pretty sure that this has been a “safe harbor” from feeling entrapped again by a “real relationship.” I need to work hard on loving myself and on trusting that someone else can love me without crushing and controlling me. I wish you luck in the same…
amanda, I can definitely identify with you. My marriage started out fine, but didn’t end well. Although my ex was (and still is) narcissistic, self-absorbed and selfish, I still felt like it was me and that I wasn’t good enough. I actually do see a therapist and I’ve been trying, slowly to build up my self-esteem. I just dread the thought of “casual” dating, though. But, I don’t want to be involved with an unavailable man, either, married or not. I guess I’m just stuck. Thanks for sharing.
Dear Heartache Amy
Maintain your self respect and stay strong. He tells you he is unhappily married,how convenient FOR HIM. He is sowing the seeds of the poor me mentality in the hope that you will be his Florence Nightengale on his terms. I would strongly advise not to go down that path. He is dipping his toes in the water, lets see how warm the temperature is from your responses so that he can go for a nice long swim around like a SHARK! He is unavailable, he is married. He is not pursuing with vigor (as you say) as I think he is hoping that he will leave THAT next step up to you. He is like a circling shark and you need to get out of the water FAST! He can taste your fear and your lonliness. PLEASE Dont get caught in his net.
So understand what your going through. Man that I’m seeing is living with another women. But I’m lonely. Sometimes feel its bettter to have a part-time man than “no man” at all. =(
Summer, I had part-time(booty-call) “relationship” and trust me, it was HELL. My part-time liaison stopped me meeting decent men as I was hooked on my AC… I rather be single for the rest of my life, than to have a man, who does not respect me:-(
Summer, First, big, big, big, hugs. “Sometimes feel its bettter to have a part-time man than “no man” at all.” Is it? I thought the same thing which is one of the reasons I became an OW. That’s how we pigeonhole ourselves. When I found BR(sorry to sound “born again” but I am), I realized I was shooting myself in the foot, opting into lesser roles, and selling myself down the river. Ouch! After a dark and lonely time, I had to come to grips with the fact that no part-time guy is going to fill my lonely void. I had to face it and learn to fill it with…well…frankly I am still working on filling it. As I said to Amy (above), sometimes knowing what you don’t want is a start. I know I deserve better than a part-time guy and that won’t fill the lonely void. For me a part-time guy only exacerbated the lonely void and led to what Nat describes as a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Think about your comment:”Sometimes feel its bettter to have a part-time man than “no man” at all.” Is it really? If it is, how did you find BR?
Opps, That “finding BR” line didn’t come out right. I’m so grateful for Natalie and BR, and the exMM that compelled my internet search for help. Summer, you’ve ended up in the right place. Hope you’ll stay here. And BTW, order Nat’s books ASAP.
true words, but painful to hear.
Well, this didn’t work. I gave him the ultimatum, so he just vanished altogether.
Betty, sorry to hear that, it must hurt. But I would say on the contrary, it DID work! If you had an ultimatum good for you, he isn’t the one to fulfill it, find some one who will. All power to you!
Betty,
The point is not to “get” someone to stick around by NOT giving them the ultimatum or, to make them stick around by GIVING them the ultimatum. The point is to have boundaries and work enough on your self-respect that you would not entertain being with someone who does not respect your boundaries, and to, ideally after some work, strengthen those boundaries and your self-esteem to the point that EU men make you feel disgusted or apathetic towards them. You need to know your destination that you are driving towards and from your comment, it seems that you regard any relationship as “proof” that something is working…the only proof of things working you might ironically have sometimes is these men leaving. Well done although you don’t seem to know it;) lol
Good! Then he’s not worth it and he’s done you a huge favor 😉
Betty – I totally understand where you’re coming from. I know it’s not the correct way to look at it, but I know I fear “giving the ultimatum” which ultimately means setting a strong boundary out of fear he will just vanish. I really commend you for setting the boundary and know that I want to set one for the right reason – not to GET him to stay but because it’s healthier for me so that I’m not being treated unkindly. Right now though, I think I also hold onto hope that setting a boundary and giving him an ultimatum would make him change his mind about being more committed. I need to change MY mind about this person and get out.
Betty
When I was in my early twenties I met a man who told me that he’d never change for anyone and if he ever received an ultimatum he’d choose to leave that person rather than stay with someone who gave him ultimata.
I spent six years Not Giving Him An Ultimatum and in the end I left him because although I loved him dearly, there wasn’t any room for growth in a relationship with someone who refused to change in the tiniest way for someone else. That’s six years that I won’t get back, and the damage that I did to my own emotional availability wasn’t a recipe for fulfilment either. I didn’t even give him an ultimatum at the end, I got so tired of fighting and never having my point of view taken into consideration that one day I just left.
It hurt both of us dreadfully. Wish I’d given him that ultimatum years ago.
I know that it doesn’t feel like it, but it’s a good thing. If someone isn’t going to take your needs into consideration then no matter what happens, you can’t have a happy relationship. Now you can.
Natalie, this is so powerful for me to read right now as it sums up the exact reason I went NC – to end an unhealthy situation in which I would be one of his casual playmates when I was falling in love and wanted a relationship. I could have agreed to his terms, but I couldn’t have coped with such casual disregard. I love your point that having boundaries doesn’t make people who want to be with you leave. And if they do, they should be gone.
Bless you for giving me a well-needed shot of strength to maintain NC and continue to stand behind my decision.
When Nat says, “then you end up feeling like you have to ‘undo’ their perception of you as well,” I took it to mean what *I perceived* as their perception of me. That hit the nail on the head. I’ve had to completely “undo” all the putdowns and disrespect that I absorbed over the course of two years, stuff that I internalized. I never felt more estranged from myself, my values, my pride, what made me tick. I’m rebuilding now, but the after-shocks of all that b.s. still come up…. The cost of selling yourself short is tremendous, not just while it’s happening, but in recovery time as well.
I really needed to read this and I copy and pasted your paragraph on standing by your boundaries and put it in a doc labelled “READ DAILY’.
I have recently begun to stand by my boundaries of not responding to text and not accepting casual treatment from men. I have to be honest it’s not easy and feels very uncomfortable.
However, I understand that if I’m to have the type of relationship I want where I’m valued and respected, I have to continue to ignore the guys who text late at night or text asking for a date that same night or who email asking when am I coming to see them when they live 2 hours away.
All I ask is to be telephoned and asked out on a date with a couple of days notice. To me, that doesn’t sound like the moon but I’m afraid in this day and age it is. I’m standing strong even though it is incredibly lonely. I feel my self-esteem and resolve are growing as a result but I also feel a little angry.
Any encouragement would be helpful. Thanks!
Feast, I am in a similar situation but I am reminded by other positive examples in my life that it is entirely possible to find someone special who knows what they want, is consistent in behavior, and is a healthy and happy person. Can you reflect on any friends or family members that have positive relationships that will serve as inspiration or a good example to you? Knowing it’s out there helps me!
Face it the reason the guy calls you on the same day for a date and can’t make plans for a date a few days in advance is because he might get “something better” you are like his last choice….I’ve been there. Mine lives with his girlfriend…I get only crumbs of his affection.
Love this. Could you also, Nathalie, at some point give some input on when approximately one can ask a guy, straight up, what they are looking for in a relationship? Not in terms of monogamy ( I am good with being very upfront that I don’t want anything less than a monogamous relationship) but in terms of where they see themselves in the future 2 years or so? I feel like it is hard to suss people out and I don’t want to waste my time or anyones else’s while dating. I had a really nice date with someone last night, and we are supposed to see each other again ( he seemed pretty enthusiastic which was nice) and I just wonder what one can say, casually, to clue someone in without seeming too “declarative” for lack of a better word. At this stage of my life I really don’t see being with someone longer than 3-6 months if we both are not interested in a serious ( read headed towards marriage as a future goal) relationship. I know that I want a serious relationship in my life. I have a really hard time finding a way to get that out in in a manner that does not seem either too casual or too serious. Any script that I could follow;)?
dancingqueen
Instead of dropping hints casually, why not say to him around the one-month mark or three month, depending on what you’re comfortable with (date two is too soon in my opinion):
“I like the way this relationship is progressing but I can only continue if we want the same thing. What are you looking for out of a relationship?” Or something to that effect. Then shut up and listen. Unless he’s from another planet, it’s hardly going to come as a complete shock that you want to know. And maybe he will want to know too? Within a few weeks you may decide he’s not for you, he may decide it’s not for him, he may say something of his own accord regarding his goals, so don’t stress it. Just enjoy the initial dating period for what it is. A time to get to know each other. And then kick it up a notch if it’s appropriate.
Although I just replied to Demke saying that we shouldn’t generalise, I’m going to generalise – men don’t get our hints. You can get mad and frustrated about it. You can keep trying to mind control him. You can worry about it. Or just say it.
“I have a really hard time finding a way to get that out in in a manner that does not seem either too casual or too serious.” Be serious, it’s a serious matter. If he runs for the hills, there’s your answer. Better to know sooner than later. I don’t think waiting for “serious” to “creep up” on him is the way forward.
Grace this bit especially was really helpful
Instead of dropping hints casually, why not say to him around the one-month mark or three month, depending on what you’re comfortable with (date two is too soon in my opinion):
“I like the way this relationship is progressing but I can only continue if we want the same thing. What are you looking for out of a relationship?” Or something to that effect. Then shut up and listen. Unless he’s from another planet, it’s hardly going to come as a complete shock that you want to know. And maybe he will want to know too?”
I don’t know why, but I needed that reminder that two people in their 40’s should not be shocked to speak of these things-serious relationships! I am so conditioned by so many “casual” men out there, which seem to be the norm, trying to convince me and other women that any talk of seriousness is too much that I feel that I lose my common sense sometimes! I agree-the 2nd date is way too soon!-but I just wanted to know. I think that you are right; hint dropping is not very effective.:)
dancingqueen- yea, 2nd date is way too soon to think about ‘relationship’. It’s not even close. In my recent dating experiences, if you just sit back, relax and be comfortable with yourself and just go out and enjoy yourself with your date… as if he’s a ‘friend’, he will open up to you, naturally. You won’t even need to ask if they want ‘serious’ or ‘casual’, if you just relax and having conversations with men you’re just getting to know… you will know what their intentions are without even uttering a word about it. And so what if it’s not by date #..2 or 3. Who’s counting? are you having fun with this person? is he respectful? if you pay attention in conversation of what he’s revealing to you.. you will have an ‘idea’ of what he’s looking for. I dated a man recently… for almost 2 months. Hit it off first month (I never wondered, does he like me? will he call? does he want casual? yada, yada… yada), I watched how he treated me when we went out, I was 100% myself.. did not care whatsoever about having a ‘relationship’ with him, or anything.. it didn’t get too phycial. I remember after our 4th date (and HE was the one counting, not me.. usually, it was me), he said “I can’t believe you haven’t asked me where this is going, most women ask me on the 3rd date where this ‘relationship’ is going.. and I’m like whhaaatt??, what relationship, I barely know you! it’s refreshing that you haven’t asked. I really like you… I want to spend more time with you”. I told him that I have a good time with him, and would like to go on another date with him.” Period. He waiting to try anyting physical with me. It didn’t even get to that point because by date.. 8 or 9, he revealed some characteristics I knew would be a conflict down the road for ME. So, I backed away and was no longer interested. I think women complicate the crap out of dating… it’s just dating. Why would you even think of being serious with someone you barely know? Date 2, 3, 4, 5.. you still don’t ‘really’know them.. and it’s not wasting time, this is your time to have fun, date.. and get to know people, and cut it off when you hear or see something you don’t like. and in a very short amount of time, they will show you what they’re about if you pay attention. Then you can act accordingly. 🙂
Great advice, Demke, thanks for that (though it wasn´t for me).
I want to add that I´ve found men always want to know where things are going too. In most cases, they will ask what you are looking for and discuss the progress of the relationship even if you don´t drop the question first.
@ demke and lilia, thanks I had no intention of asking him that on the second date, more like the 10th,as that is about when most people have that talk, at least in my opinion. I just was, I guess, hoping to hear what other people thought about this…I know that Natalie had said something about asking in the very beginning what they are looking for but that just makes me feel really uncomfortable. And you are right, it easily goes both ways. Demke you are right people do reveal themselves. My problem is that the last person I was with talked a pretty good game in the beginning ( and it was all on his own choosing, I did not even ask) and it ended up being a bit different in the end. I wasn’t really hurt or anything per se, but I felt a bit turned off that they talked out their ass about stuff that I cannot imagine them delivering, now that I know them, with anyone. So I feel a bit wary about waiting for a guy to say his piece because to me it is all the same; I just feel like guys will talk about anything in the beginning when they are running hot but I am trying to figure out a way to circumvent that…lol…control much? I am such a control freak it is starting to amuse me thank god:) Thanks ladies.
After everything I went through with AC#3, I’ve come to the conclusion it is a very bad idea to have the “what are you looking for?/where is this going?” talk too soon. It’s even worse if the reason you are having this talk is because you have noticed red flags, and want to “clear things up.” Whether or not it is your intention, having that talk inevitably makes the relationship take a more serious turn if both parties say that they want commitment. And so all of a sudden, you can find yourself in a relationship taking on a serious tenor with a guy who has red flags!
I’d recommend keeping things ****light**** in the early stages. (You want to keep an easy exit available in case red flags appear!!) Just go out and see if you have a good time together, and get a sense of his character by how he treats you. In my experience, the guy tends to reveal through his actions whether he would be a good boyfriend, and a bit later on will tell you if he wants marriage and kids. (Without me asking, all of my boyfriends told me that they did want those things, within the first three months of our relationship.)
“I’d recommend keeping things ****light**** in the early stages. (You want to keep an easy exit available in case red flags appear!!) Just go out and see if you have a good time together, and get a sense of his character by how he treats you.”
Super good advice! Light light light light…ah so hard but I will try:) thanks
The chicken bone analogy is your absolute best Natalie. Of course, this article makes perfect sense a year and change after the affair but it made me think back. When the affair started, I was totally EU, of course, and wasn’t interested in a committed relationship/marriage. At least that’s what I thought at the time. Clearly, I wasn’t conscious or thinking in order to betray another woman and their children as well as myself and my daughter. I’m still working on owning my responsibility, not flogging myself, and moving toward forgiving myself for that giant, huge mistake. And I am truly very sorry. I was a selfish EU twit.
I didn’t want to be the “girlfriend, wife, have a relationship, have a future…” or a roast chicken with all the trimmings until way into the affair. Before I get clobbered, I know I could have (should have) gotten involved with a SINGLE EUM as there are plenty of those out there. I rationalized that he wasn’t in my way (he was), I could date (I didn’t), and what the hell was I doing anyway (nothing cos I was waiting for him to call). I know, classic EUW. YUCK. I didn’t go into it hoping a roast chicken with all the trimmings would come out. Somewhere along the way, that is precisely what happened. Then instead of opting out,I kept sticking around, complaining bitterly about the burnt bone, angry, miserable, and unhappy as hell thinking one day I’d get upgraded to play the leading role and be the exception to the rule (I didn’t have those words back then). That’s when the shit starting hitting the proverbial fan. When I realized I wanted a loving committed relationship but was riding the pine as an OW. I was pigeonholed. Then once I discovered BR, I realized I was dreaming about a fantasy of having a healthy committed relationship based on honesty and respect with a lying cheater. Worse, I was a lying cheater too. Shakes her head in disbelief. A double heist gone wrong. As usual, thank you Natalie for all that you do. You are a brilliant, amazing lady and attract a brilliant, amazing community. In gratitude!
“I didn’t go into it hoping a roast chicken with all the trimmings would come out. Somewhere along the way, that is precisely what happened.”
Haha yep been there.
After being obsessed with AC#1 for seven years, I moved to another country for a year. I promised myself that I would experiment with dating someone while I was in that other country to break my addiction to AC#1. (Every time that I had tried dating someone else during the past 7 years, I had ended up breaking it off very quickly, because I was “still in love” with AC#1.) I thought I would feel “safe” to date someone new in a different country because I knew the relationship would have to end, and then I could just come back to my country and return to fighting for AC#1, haha.
So I met AC#2 in that other country, and I thought, “Okay — he’ll do,” with the intention being to end the relationship when I had to leave the country. Then when *he* ended things with me really quickly, taking me off-guard, *voila!* I suddenly found a new obsession! Proceed to me deciding to spend a second year in that country, and spending all of those two years trying to win him over, and even attempting to move permanently to that country, as I felt that I could not give up my mission.
“As usual, thank you Natalie for all that you do. You are a brilliant, amazing lady and attract a brilliant, amazing community.”
Yep, yep!!
Yep, yep Snowboard been there too. Trying to get over one guy by getting under another didn’t work for me. I’ve so done the “he’ll do” for now. I don’t think I effed with any guy though because they were as EU as I was and they were probably thinking the same thing. I think what’s struck me most with the roast chicken analogy is that now I realize if I’m putting a bone in the oven(he’ll do),it’ll come out a bone. Now I’m going to be very careful of what I put into my oven, innuendo intended! Maybe we’ve found a new obsession…us? No more chicken bones.
Runnergirl
I totally relate to your response to Natalie’s post and, plus or minus a kid (or OOW)here and there, it is my story too. Yet another double heist gone wrong!
It is quite the process extracting oneself from these affairs-from-hell, but I am looking forward to the end result of refusing to pigeonhole myself and to becoming a person of integrity with values and boundaries fully intact. I fully agree with all advice you have given other posters NOT to become involved with Liars (which includes all attached/married men). It is a relief not to be complicit with the whole lying and cheating gig.
It has been 7 weeks since I ended the final shreds of a “friendship” with the exMM. Although it has been difficult having to see him through work the last few days, I am optimistic that I can remain in this “nonOW” status. Adding my gratitude for BR to yours and snowboard’s, runnergirl 🙂
Learner – How had you moved into “friend”category after being/wanting more? I find myself in the same situation where my guy says we need to hit the reset button and learn how to be friends again before we can build a relationship he is confident in and he feels is secure enough to commit to. How do you go backwards and “just be friends” when you were more? Can you? And will this really make a difference or is it just his way of controlling the level of intimacy? Just wanted to hear your thoughts from your experience.
Lilian
I have had this relationshit with the exMM for 3 years. It started hot, went to cold, then became consistently warmer over the last 2 years. He told me he wanted a future with me. He made his wife sound like a lazy, disrespectful witch (as did his sister). I couldn’t stand being in limbo much longer, so at the beginning of the year, I gave him an ultimatum of the end of June. Either he left his “horrible” wife so we could be together as life partners, or I was going to leave him and end all the deceit. In May, I discovered he had a long-term lover – a friend of the family. He said he was “weaning off her” to be with me, but I couldn’t deal with being one of THREE women he was involved with. (I should have had a problem with being involved with a MM in the first place). I immediately stopped being intimate with him and didn’t want to see him ever again. He begged me to continue as friends. I went along for a couple of months until I found BR and some astute women pointed out that he was NOT my friend. They were right. We were taking a course together, going for tea, etc, and things would be fine until I would inevitably get the urge to quiz him about this “OOW”. I was so angry, that our time together was filled with tension. So I had to go NC. This was 7 weeks ago. I have just had 4 days of having to see him at work. It was all going fine until this evening. He was trying to be friendly all day, and keeping an eye on my every move, but I made a point to focus on the job to be done, keeping things business-like, and being true to myself while networking with other (interesting) colleagues. He ended up leaving work by slipping away without saying goodbye to anyone (unusual for him). I should have been happy, but instead went home and balled my eyes out. It seems I cannot be in his presence (or have him leave the building) without feeling hurt at this point. I feel strongly that I must not reengage with him, but I am fighting myself (still) to let go. After the sobbing, I had a significant conversation with myself in the mirror. It was almost as if I was looking into someone else’s eyes while knowing they were mine. It was an intense experience. I told myself to let go. I told myself “I love you”. I became the “other person” on the porch swing that the exMM said we should all search for – who could look into each others eyes and know what each other was thinking without saying a word.
Wow, it is after 3am and what I just wrote sounds almost crazy! But the end result has been a feeling of deep peace, unlike anything I have felt for a very long time.
Sorry if this is a longer answer than you needed. It is not possible for me to care for myself while being friends with this unavailable man. I think he wanted to be friends to avoid feeling like an asshole.Or maybe to get me back to intimate. But he IS a manipulative, hypocritical predatory user who does not have my best interests at heart. I must let him go. I must go to bed. I hope this gave you the answers about my particular situation you were looking for.
Good night!
Learner
I’m so sorry to hear everything you are going through. I know deep down I can’t be “friends” and hit the reset button and I also can’t be waiting around for him to make a decision on if he is going to commit to me or not. I have been in my relationship for a year and half and for the first 6 months my EUM was seemingly unattached. But then he decided he would go back to his wife (he was separated when we met) because he couldn’t risk losing all of his finances, etc. Despite that the fact the he loves me and doesn’t want to lose me. I know nice big heap of bullshit. He kept giving me new time frames of when it was going to happen until one day he said I can’t continue to put pressure on him and give him ultimatums. But why the hell not? Every day it’s so hurtful but I am so scared of the pain I will go through and the loneliness I will experience when I finally say enough is enough. Either way I feel like I am slowly dying inside and am losing myself, my happiness and my life in the process. I never imagined in a million years I would be in this situation, but here I am. I appreciate your opening up about your situation and your struggles. Stay strong because you deserve so much more.
Lilian
” I know deep down I can’t be “friends” and hit the reset button and I also can’t be waiting around for him to make a decision on if he is going to commit to me or not.”
Yes, you are right. No matter what reasons he gives to you, he has chosen his wife. He has you pegged as the woman who will accept his crumbs. The exMM I was involved with did the same thing by telling me he felt “pressured” by me, and like he had “cement shoes on” when it came to changing his circumstances.
As Natalie, runnergirl, Fearless et al have told us OW’s, YOU are hoping to be the exception and get “traded up” to the leading role. Trust me, I know how gut-wrenching that position can be. The thing is, even as “friends” it is still gut-wrenching. He has even greater liberties to throw you crumbs while you hope and wait. It sucks and can hurt even more.
Since ending my “friendship” with the exMM and going NC, I have been on a tough, painful path. But along that path have already been small areas of strength and happiness. The pain now feels like “growing pains” instead of the pain of having a person torn from your life. There is still grief, but it’s hopeful grieving.
More and more, I am liking the idea of “talk to me when you are single, and not a moment before”.
It sucks to go through the pain, but as Natalie has said elsewhere, there is no way around it, just through it. And on the other side will be a greater happiness than can ever be experienced by an OW. You know what you have to do.You have the power and strength to choose you. Now do it. Strength and hugs xo
Lilian, I hadn’t read this post of yours. I feel for you. this guy sounds like a user. You’re not waiting for him to make up his mind, you’re waiting for him to *change his mind*. Most OW talk about waiting of him to make a decision – he has already.
The only way out is through. this is not going to work out for you, ever. Don’t wait till you feel like it or till you find the strength – walk away first, the strength and ‘feeling like it’ will come later – but first you have to get out of the mess, or you’ll always be in it and it’ll always keep you thinking the way you do. If you want to get better and feel better you have to move away from the source of the disease.
Lilian,
assuming you’re talking about the guy who was “separated” and then moved back in with his wife who he is till with – who the hell does he think he’s kidding, with all of this you need to be “friends” so that you can try to get back to where you were in the beginning… blah, blah, blah baloney. In the name of the wee man! How on earth can you possibly even begin to get back to where you were at the start, to rekindle your romance with him when he’s now rekindled his marriage and is living with his wife. Where exactly is this starting point? Is he having a laugh? This is mind-effery. If you can’t tell him to get lost and mean it at least tell him that if he wants to rekindle anything with you he’s gonna have to be single first! The result will be the same. Sheesh. I’m angry on your behalf.
Yep Fearless – This is the guy. And I HAVE said a million times that we can’t build shit if he is married, not even a friendship. And that’s when he tags himself as the victim of my pressure and my being demanding. And tells me how can he know we can be a good couple if all we do is fight and we HAVE to get back to where we were in order for him to know. Oh mind effery is right. Nevertheless I don’t know how to go backwards and “just be friends.” We started a relationship with feelings and intimacy that goes beyond friendship. Of course he still tells me he loves me and only stays in his situation for the business not the actual relationship. I am so tired of the excuses and the deceit. I certainly haven’t told him to get lost and mean it but I have told him we can’t rekindle anything if he’s NOT single. And that hasn’t done anything. So I assume the only other choice is to tell him to get lost? I vacillate between angry and sad constantly and feel like I am walking around with a heavy boulder inside me. It’s not good.
Thanks Fearless.
Don’t wait till you feel like it or till you find the strength – walk away first, the strength and ‘feeling like it’ will come later”
So true! And it is what I keep thinking…I just need to wait until I find the strength. Jump first then pull the parachute.
Now it’s just a matter of how and when do I do this? Phone? Text? In-person? Thoughts?
Lilian
I am so glad to hear you are planning your way to opt out of this degrading, soul-destroying OW status.
My thoughts about method?
I tried the in-person route about 4 times, and each time it was a FAIL. He came back with answers to all my “reasons”, cried for hours, got down on his knees and begged me to remain friends, promised me the world with a “sincere”, wounded expression on his face. I realized that while I could see him, hear him, and smell him (he smells soooo good even tho he is full of sh*t), I could not find the strength to leave him if done in person.
When I finally had my “enough” moment, with the help of BR posters, I simply wrote him an email. It worked like a charm. I didn’t have to see him, and was able to write what I needed to say with no immediate counter-arguments from him.
I simply told him I could not lie to myself any more, cancelled our “dinner date” to have a talk (during which I had hoped to have some closure) and told him we didn’t have anything left to discuss, and only to contact me for work purposes.
I wished him happiness in the future.
He took it almost too well. Respected my decisions, no longer tried to protest, didn’t give me any more future faking. I think he knew I was crazy to even be talking to him after he had disrespected me (and his WIFE) so profoundly over the last 3 years.
And that was almost 8 weeks ago. I don’t regret going NC, and I don’t regret ending things via email. It worked!
It has been tough, but Fearless is right – the strength comes AFTER you have gone NC. To cope, I have read BR every day, downloaded and read Natalie’s books, posted on here what I have been going through, and somehow, the strength to maintain NC has appeared. I am now seeing the exMM for what he really is (a selfish user who took advantage of my “adoration” of him to string me along). I am gaining new insights about myself every day. It is empowering!
I know very well that’s it’s difficult when you believe what they say for so long, and when you are in the middle of the fantasy relationship. I was where you are now less than 8 weeks ago. I am here to tell you that, on the other side of ending things and going NC, there is a new feeling of strength, of valuing yourself,of being free from all the clandestine sh*t, from the waiting, from the accepting crumbs, and the feeling of being a person of low morals (speaking for myself here). I already feel stronger, I value myself more, I am optimistic about the future, and I can’t imagine going back to that OW hell, no matter how much passion I felt for the man. I want to be a person with integrity. I choose me – I am free!!! You can feel this way too Lilian!!!
Go back to being “friends”? If a man said that to me, ..I’d agree with him, and then move on. Umm… if he’s thinking of moving ‘backward’ instead of forward.. time to leave. Yes, that’s his way of controlling how the relationship is moving along. And um, relationships are supposed to be ‘mutual’, right? I’d ditch him, completely.
Learner, so good to hear you made it through working with the ex-cheating, cheater, creep and your presentation went superbly. You are amazing and such an inspiration. Congratulations. 7 weeks NC is a vulnerable time and to be forced into the same working environment with the creep must have been beyond stressful. I know you probably need to unwind, process, and get back to you. But don’t be “optimistic” about remaining in OW status…do it. It’s been an eye-opener for me,something as simple as NO LIARS. That wipes MMs/Attached off the map. I’ve also noticed that nonMM/attached liars like to fess up immediately that they’ve lied as though they are at confessional and should be automatically forgiven. I forgive them for lying, truly. Hell, I’ve lied my ass off as an OW. But I’m not sticking around to see what next lie they need to ask forgiveness for. And, I’m done with the lying gig. It is truly amazing that some guys can’t own up to being 50-something, although there are probably as many women that can’t own it either. I’m babbling now..sorry. It’s simple: bone in bone out, liar in liar out. No roast chicken with a liar.
Runner
I knew the man thought I was at least 10 years younger than I am (everyone else does). I couldn’t tell how old he is (I’m crap at that) but was hoping for late 30s (still young but acceptable to me). While we were “just friends” the age question was hanging over me. I couldn’t bring myself to ask “HOW OLD ARE YOU?!. (Who says that once they’re over 16?) but when I found out (at his birthday), just how young he is (32, 31 all the time I was stressing about it) I realised I had to “fess up”.
I could have continued not telling him and let him assume but it felt too deceitful. As it was, when I told him he said “Wow! That’s so cool .. I wish I looked younger than I am!”. What a stupid yet sweet thing to say.
I then had to jump hurdle two, telling him I was divorced. Which he also took well.
It felt very uncomfortable to me that I knew key facts which he didn’t. It’s down to values. My age and being divorced are nothing to be ashamed of (thouh I was) but he did have the right to know as we became more romantically inclined to each other.
It’s not just outright lies that are wrong, it’s the with-holding of vital information too. Anyone who tries to justify that is shady too.
Good for you Grace for fessing up at the outset. Legally (in my state, in some circumstances),omission is equally as culpable as commission. Imagine if you hadn’t said something back then and had to fess up now. I admire how you stuck by your values/boundaries and didn’t abandon honesty via omission in the pursuit of a relationship. I also enjoy reading your comments about how things are progressing without having to clobber him over the head repeatedly. Sounds peaceful. Congratulations. I’ve also readjusted my thinking about the age thing. Still no 20-somethings though!
The exMM was a master of omission. Unless I put him on the stand and cross-exed him and clobbered him over the head, I never knew a thing. Omission is deceitful. I guess I’m grateful these guys have been honest liars so I know to bail fast! Good luck to you Grace. There’s hope!
Runnergirl
Thank you for your reply. I must admit I am not feeling inspirational today, but today is the last day I have to see the exMM for months, which is a relief.
and why do guys even bother to lie about their age???
“But I’m not sticking around to see what next lie they need to ask forgiveness for.”
Great policy!
Hey Learner, I posted my comment before your response to Lillian was posted.So Sorry to hear that you had a bad night. You have a lot to be proud of. You made it through an extremely stressful time with flying colors. I loved your comments: “There is still grief, but it’s hopeful grieving”; And on the other side will be a greater happiness than can ever be experienced by an OW.” Perfectly stated and a great reminder to me. It’s nice to be out of the pigeonhole! YOU are an inspiration.
aww, thanks runnergirl. Your message brought tears to my eyes. GOOD tears.
With the help of Natalie and all of you that post on BR, I feel like I am finally “getting it”. and getting through this. I am having a bit of a withdrawal feeling despite myself today, since I wont be seeing the ex-cheating cheater any time soon. But it’s nothing like the intensity of first going NC, or the misery of being stuck in the OW role.
I am always grateful for the inspiration you give to me too – so glad it’s mutual 🙂
Natalie, thank you so much for this post. Another “Wake Up” call. Honestly, you are just talking to me directly: “The question you have to ask yourself when you say that you want one thing but you do something entirely different is, how serious are you? Where is the mentality and the actions that support your values and the direction that you say you’re headed in?”
One thing I “achieved” in my personal growth, that I stopped thinking that someone can fix me and make me happy…NO one, only me. I also noticed that I want one thing, but doing totally different thing, as you said, I had enough “self-talk” and now I need actions to support my words, otherwise what is the point???
Words of wisdom yet again from Natalie. sometimes we put our selves in these situations because we fear nothing better will come along, so we wait patiently for the “right time” for him to leave, commit or whatever to make us feel whole. The only ‘whole’ we get is a hole! which gets bigger the more the time goes on. Am into 16 days now without the colonic iritation and life is getting better. how i put up with what i did in the name of love ( loosly connected!) i will never know. I have felt better, no pressure on myself wondering when i will see him, hear from him, when he will not be too busy, and sometimes it only takes reading these articles that Natalie, so empathetically writes for us to realise. Some things may not have a happy ending as we expect, but when happiness comes with a price of absolutely putting us in a situation which makes us generally unhappy, whats the point. we are worth it ladies we are. we have a heart that beats and we have a life, and wasting it on no hopers, EUMs and affairs and whatever will only make us in the end look back with regret that we didnt do anything about it sooner. I wasted four years hanging around for someone who in the end \I cut off from, never thought i would, but i did and feel like a person again instead of a try before you buy option. good luck all xx
“Am into 16 days now without the colonic iritation”
Okay that made me laugh for two reasons: one, “colonic irritation” was funny ( need to remember that) and two, I misread it as “colonic irrigation” and for a brief moment I thought ” Did I miss Natalie’s post on colonics and how they relate to getting over EU’s? I know that she is into accupuncture and such…” Okay I think that this site is making me a bit loopy.
Dammit, I got my boundaries busted!
Weeks ago I shared that I am about to move my disabled brother to another caring home due to a lot of conflicts about his care. The moving has happened now. While I felt at a loss with all the power plays I thought it a good idea to get some independent support and hired a professional who has a company exactly for that. We made a contract and I pay him privately.
I thought him a decent man. I began trusting and filling him in. Gosh, I can do with an experience that my trust is not misplaced. – Well, it shouldn’t be that way (yet). One day – his wife and kids all in their summer house – he invited me to his home. Basically it was a set up to talk me into the need of a “holding therapy” in which HE wanted to be the “holding man”. It upsets me too much to get into the details (as the whole idea is bonkers and off anything I aim at btw) but I managed a lucky getaway. I just feel so disappointed and massively betrayed fighting thoughts and reruns of the scene.
I hold strong as BR has prepared me for keeping a parachute. Two days after the incident, still upset and fuming, I called a center for sexually harassed girls and adults. I’ll have an appointment at the end of the month. I have to get out of that contract ASAP to make my boundaries clear.
Today’s topic has me wonder how serious am I about being responsible for my life? I admit I get in knots over the action part. I need support, yes, but not to the price of being abused by the helper. Back to UNCOMFORTABLE instead of snoozing short-term. This let me book one of Nat’s courses. Exhausted but looking forward.
Arlena
No doubt about it, he’s an idiot. I suppose you put too much trust in him and it wasn’t a good idea to go to his house (in the crush phase I invited the man to my house for something to eat, quite late. I’m so glad he said no – I don’t know what I was thinking!), but on the bright side at least you don’t have this shady character looking after your brother anymore. I got molested a few times by lodgers when I was a teenager. It’s not nice and it’s not your fault. Don’t let him derail you or make you doubt yourself.
Grace, thank you. As for going to his place his office and home is in the same house and due to the kind of his work he is mobile which is why we met at my place usually for talks. When he invited me he made it “therapeutic” when I hesitated as I still don’t have a full radius of moving around. There is a potential trap for those who suffer from anxiety, work on overcoming it as there is a fine line of avoiding and hence pushing oneself to do the uncomfortable and overriding very vital information that you should better heed. Which is which? Unfortunately most therapists push for “I feel the fear and do it anyway”-attitude which by proving your “courage” against your gut might result in surprises of the shady kind.
There is also a very fine line of getting support that is empowering and doesn’t take away your responsibility and support that works you into becoming dependent. Mr Shady unfolded to represent the latter.
Hello, this post really hits home. I just opted out of something that would have put me in a role I didn’t want – that of “friends with benefits”, or something like. I was recently involved with a man for several months who wanted me for sex and nothing, or not much, else. I knew from the beginning he was attracted to me sexually, but didn’t discover until later that sex was all he wanted. Because I had suspicions that sex was probably mostly what he wanted, although there was kissing and some fooling around, I didn’t have sex with him. That’s not the kind of relationship I wanted so I decided to tell him I realized we wanted different things and break it off. I wanted to do this face to face, but he went on a business trip and didn’t bother making time to see me before he left. Since I didn’t know when he was getting back or, once he was back, when he would deign to see me, I sent him a matter of fact email breaking it off. (We never talked on the phone – we were “introduced” initially through email and he decided that mode of communication was easiest for him, I guess. That’s why I sent him an email). Believe me, if I thought he’d be heartbroken I would have waited to see him in person, whenever that would be. But since it appeared through his actions that he didn’t care, I decided to send the email. That was 3 weeks ago, and he never responded at all. I know he got the email – we’ve emailed back and forth frequently and there was never a time when he didn’t receive one I sent him. Anyway, I’m glad I broke it off, but sad. I had grown to like him during the time I thought we were developing a relationship, and am sad he didn’t want a relationship with me. I’m sad he didn’t bother to respond, even with an “agreed – sorry it didn’t work out.” I did the right thing, and I wouldn’t change it. But now I’m left with silence that comes with a relationship (or whatever this was!) ending and it’s hard. I have been through much worse in the past, but started dating this guy after years of not bothering to date at all, so that’s part of the reason this has hit me harder than it otherwise would. Does anyone have any words of wisdom? 🙂
dawn
You did well. Even breaking it off via email since he couldn’t be bothered to see you. You didn’t have any choice. From what I know of EUMs, I expect he preferred the email route to having to face you. EUMs detest conflict or enjoy it too much. They certainly can’t handle it well.
It’s okay to feel disappointed. It’s okay to miss him. It’s okay for your self-esteem to take a ding. But see it as a temporary, natural reaction to a loss that you will get over. Don’t go off the deep end as we are wont to do and start WOE IS ME I’ll never meet anyone, everything is doomed! Only EUMs/MMs like me! There’s something wrong with me! I want to feel better tomorrow! (That said, this setback does not warrant months of grieving).
The plan isn’t to breeze through life as a robot ticking off a checklist of requirements. Live it, feel it, keep moving forward.
Thanks so much Grace, I really appreciate your input! 🙂 It’s not the end of the world, but after having not dated for a long time I’m more sensitive than I would be otherwise. I’ll keep moving forward! 🙂
…It’s like seeing a real cute, trendy pair of heels on the sale rack. You’re a size 7. But, you don’t see any cute 7’s around, just a pair of 6 1/2’s.
So, you try them on, thinking..’well, they are sooo cute! and cheap! maybe in time, if I wear them long enough.. they’ll stretch and be a perfect fit!’. So, you take the 6 1/2’s home with you. Try them on, get dressed, go out. Within a short amount of time, your feet start to hurt. (now, I know we’ve all experienced the pain of cute, cheap heels!). Next day, your feet are killing you. Damn shoes! You get mad, leave them in your closet. You don’t throw them out… you keep them, just incase. Haven’t even bothered trying to find a 7 in the meantime, because your feet are still healing from the darn 6 1/2’s, and just haven’t put in the effort to work some OT to buy the 7’s.
Girlfriends call you up one night.. ‘hey, we’re going out, come out!’ you’re bored, not really doing much, so you go out… you realize you only have the 6 1/2’s, nothing as cute in your closet, regardless if they don’t really fit. so you try em’ on again… next day, same thing… your feet hurt like hell. Get mad, Put them away for awhile.
…We can keep trying on what we know doesn’t fit, a 6 1/2 is always gonna be a 6 1/2. With putting in some effort and working some OT…we have what we need to go out and find the perfect pair of 7’s, walk around in them for awhile.. they’re comfy as hell. We’ll keep them for years without ever experience pain, they only get more comfy with time.
Why should it be any different when it comes to finding the right partner? If you try something on and it keeps hurting you, why keep trying? …Hold out for what DOES fit. And, there’s so many shoes! lol… some out of our price range (married), some that are good quality, just not our style… but eventually, you will find the pair that you want… but not if you’re too busy trying to make the 6 1/2’s fit… they won’t. Give it up. It’s not the 6 1/2’s fault.. it is what it is.
I know.. it’s a crazy analogy.. but shoes are my thing, so.. thought I’d share :).
Demke
Thanks for the laugh – my feet actually hurt today, so it was an appropriate analogy. Except I think the exMM in my case is a size 3 1/2 shoe!
Hey Nat,
Id really love a response from you or whomever. I have been dating this guy for about 2 months—it is very innocent, we don’t talk every day, but we make plans to go out at least once a week. He is very sweet, treats me well, kind, we get along great, share great laughs and at times we are a little more romantic with cuddles and small amounts of kisses. I met him at a mixer, so I am pretty sure he is out there, dating, which I am too in a way, but I also feel like it has been a sufficient amount of time for both of us to either stop dating other people and focus on each other or let it go. We have not done much in the physical sense—I do not know why; maybe it is a good thing, but it leaves me feeling a little rejected at times. Other than that, we have those “hallmarks” but its going very very slow with everything else. What do you think is going on?
@DE,
2 months is more than enough time to have that talk. See what grace responded above to my question if that script would help. I would not wait any longer and definitely don’t have sex with him until this is spoken of and agreed upon, as you want a relationship not a fling.
I read this previously…I think it is pretty spot on with what I should say. Oh sex is not even on the table…from either of us.
sorry, I meant to add (since the article spawned my question) that I ultimately want a commitment from whomever I am dating, I date with a purpose. Am I pigeonholing myself by not being upfront with him about this or do you think I am rushing. I know you say dating is a discovery phase, but when should that discovery phase move into something more?
Just my opinion but I think 2 months of weekly dating is sufficient to focus on being exclusive. I am in a relationship now(after 4 years of chaos and growth) that at about the 6 week mark he actually approached me for being exclusive. I think that is plenty of time to have done the preliminary work. It is too hard to progress when things are watered down by dating others on either side. Also, and this has happened to me, if you DON’T say something now, you may become more attatched and find yourself on the receiving end of him having kept you until he rules out who HE wants. Don’t be in that position, men that want you don’t want you dating others.
Thanks for your reply. All of what you said makes sense, I had planned on talking to him last weekend but chickened out. I also feel as though the amount of time we have spent together should be sufficient enough for either of us to know if we want to not date others. Also, your so right…I shouldn’t just allow him to keep me around until he finds something he feels is better. I have done this before to men, and I obviously was not too interested in them if I was looking elsewhere. I am glad there has not been too much attachment (partially due to the lack of physical touch aspect), but I feel it is going in that direction for me. I clammed up big time this weekend when I attempted any sort of talk. Yikes. Thanks for your reply.
Is it possible that you’re being too available for this guy? it seems predictable. See eachother once a week, talk almost every day. Umm… something tells me he already knows he’s got you, but you don’t know if you have him. And I’m sure he’s aware of this and possibly why he’s not saying anything. If you say yes to every date, without hesitation. If you answer every call on the 2nd ring, or call right back when he calls, or.. you’re the one calling or sending cute little texts just because… you’re too available, not a challenge to him, it’s predictable. However, he enjoys your company. You could be an ego-stroke for something that may not be working out for him (another girl, maybe..). My suggestion is change it up a bit. You had a life before him, get back to it.. start occupying your thoughts on other people/interests in your life that are important to you… and see what happens. Don’t change other plans for him. If he calls and your busy… call him when you’re not… don’t drop what you’re doing. He seems to be taking his time with taking you of the single market.. take your time getting back to him.. make him wonder :). Just my suggestion..
DE
You wanted to ask him at the weekend. You felt it was the right time. But you ducked out. Ask him next time. A mature decent man will respect you for being brave, making yourself vulnerable, seeking clarity, not operating on assumptions. And if it puts the fear of God into him and he runs, wave him goodbye. There are many sensitive issues to be discussed in relationships – STD screening, birth control, what sex acts you like or don’t like, when to have children, religion, mothers in law, finances, dividing up the household chores, health issues. Don’t bring it all up on the first date but know that these things don’t magically fall into place.
I was the queen of not saying anything and of playing it cool. I followed that rule to PERFECTION. Long before The Rules was written or I ever went near a relationship self-help book, I was doing that. Got me nowhere other than dragging the relationships out way past their sellby date.
If you’re not prepared to take a risk (not a stupid one), be vulnerable, or put yourself on the line, if you’re not willing to drop the “barriers to entry” , if you hedge your bets, keep your options open, treat your dates suspiciously, expect to be let down, operate according to gender stereotypes, you’ll only ever find yourself with partners who feel the same way (ie more EUMs). You gotta be brave and asking someone to be exclusive is a perfect way to start flexing your muscles.
No, you don’t know what he will say. You don’t know what the answer is. It IS a bit scary. That’s why you ask!
PS Take on board what he says in response. No point asking if you’re not going to listen.
@ DE..just my 0.02c here…
Im from a different school of thought to most people here (that being said I dont know if Im right/wrong). I am someone who is very open that I date exclusively and express that I would like the same from them too – and I do this within the first few (2-3) dates (provide we have had a good time etc). If they feel differently, I tell them that I am happy to leave it at this and move on. I need to protect myself, I cant deal with “I date 6, you date 6..lets see if we can fall in love” crap. And I agree with Katy, you will end up waiting until he decides who he wants and doesnt want…not a position I like to be in.
So 2 months of dating is DEFINITELY time for you talk about where this is going and what he/you want.
Partly agree with Demke too – have your own life, do your own thing, your friends, your family, hobbies, travel etc. Dont change plans with friends for him, though suggest times that will work for a weekly interaction.But I do not agree with the “you are not a challenge, it is predictable bit”. It is not my duty to provide a challenge to a man and the rest of it too much drama for me (that I dont want in my own head). Besides, it keeps me from being authentic, genuine and true to what I think and want to do (one of my core values).
Look after yourself, be kind to yourself and follow the voice of your values.
Purple, Demke
Absolutely. Keep doing your own thing. That’s the firm foundation from which you can strike out and take the necessary risks (and they are quite reasonable risks compared to those I’ve taken in the past!)
Just my opinion, but actions speak so much louder. If you trust your own judgment, and chill out when dating, and pay attention (while having a good time, of course) why would any woman have to utter a word about being exlusive? I think if you a woman thinks about that too much and makes the first request of ‘exclusive’, it’s out of desperatation.. and needing to have that ‘label’. If you are being yourself and you both are on the same level.. and both feel it, you wouldn’t even have to think of that conversation, you’ll know, and he’ll be the one to mention it because he wouldn’t want you being with anyone else but him. Desperate to be ‘exclusive’, I think, is out of just ‘wanting’ to have that relationship… and focusing on that before you just enjoy what’s taking place. And I’m also speaking from experience…
In my experience its also worth remembering to follow what’s best for me in the long term, rather than what I ‘want’. I’ve accepted many a casual relationship, telling myself I’d play until I found the relationship I said I really wanted. I failed to recognise that I would end up projecting my needs down the empty wells in the hope of finding love. It was always easier to start something casual but I always lost sight of my true needs and lost myself in the battlefield along the way. What a waste of my own time!!!
@Demke I so agree with your post. You still barely know eachother even after the 4th date. Then we wonder why we are the one’s left high and dry wondering what the hell happen and they are already out the “Door” and its always right after I not US have concluded that we are now wanting a committed serious relationship with someone we barely even know. Dating should be just what it is Discovering and that doesn’t put all your eggs in ONE basket but that’s what WE are so quick to do after the first few dates. It takes a couple of years to get to know someone nowadays. I am never being EXClUSIVE with one MAN until he’s the man that I am going to MARRY. Until then I am going to have a great time “discovering several men not ONE until God says he’s “THE ONE” and only difference is that God will be doing the picking and the pairing this time around; NOT ME. 🙂
I see it differently although I agree it takes a long time to truly know someone. I wouldn’t like it if I was one of many so I wouldn’t do that to someone else.I also don’t see how you can truly know someone is the one to marry if you don’t have intimacy (not just physical) beforehand. And how is intimacy possible with several people at once? Just a different take
When you feel good about yourself.. you are the one choosing. Not them. You don’t care if they’re ‘interviewing’ you, go ahead and interview me.. I’m only being me. Take it or leave it. You make the rules. It’s your life. It doesn’t have to take a long time to initially get an ‘idea’ of what someone’s values are, and characteristics, in order for you to want to be ‘intimate’ with them.
Katy- whether you like it or not, men date several women at a time, some of us should actually take some lessons from them, maybe that’s why so many of us who are left ‘high n dry’, are still grieving while they have new girlfriends.
Why not date different men, simultaneously? Who cares. Okay.. let’s say if you’re looking for a new job… but, you’re not ‘desperate’, send your resume out.. one employer offers you a job, without you really even doing any research about the company, or what the evironment is like, or you don’t want to settle with that employer, cause you’re just beginning the job search! Are you gonna say, yes! I accept! I have no idea what the company is all about.. but yea! Or, are you going to take your time interviewing with different companies… interviewing ‘them’, not them just interviewing you. ‘Is this really where I want to work 8 hours a day, give all my time, hard work to?’ Do you think a potential employer would say ‘oh.. well, we only want to interview HER, no one else..”. Umm. NO. They will be interviewing many before they make their final decision.
‘Sentimental’ does not apply in the interviewing process in the work force, and not in the intial stages of dating, either.
So why not date different men, until there’s that ‘one’ that fits the job of being “___”‘s boyfriend, companion, future husband? We choose, not them.
Such a great analogy! I can apply it to my recent experience… I had the full-time job as the AC’s gf. When I was demoted to a soul destroying unpaid position, I implicitly accepted it because I was so afraid I wouldn’t find another one. I kept on responding to his assignments in the hope of getting my old job back with pay and benefits! Of course, he was fine with this while he was actually actively interviewing new candidates for the position. I went NC for good when I showed up (literally) and he had a new hire there! Ugh. So devaluing. Never again.
I think I instinctively used to do it right before this AC because I thought I was the cat’s meow. LOL Between the damage the relationshit did to my self esteem and just not feeling as young and desirable as when I met him, I think I felt desperate and like no one else would hire me…
Ironically, while allowing myself to be devalued by the AC, I became a partner in a business with 2 men who think I’m fabulous. Hmmmm… Lesson learned!
Awakened, I thought I would do exactly as you said here. I was so angry at myself that I was faithful to my ex AC and did not give opportunity to other men to get to know me. I thought I could date few men till I see who I can have future with. BUT I could not do it. Katy is right, it is hard to be “unattached” especially when you became intimate with someone.
I think it works as Demke and Awakened say when you date assuming that YOU are the one getting to know guys, and you are trying to find out if YOU like them.
Otherwise, it is very easy to fall into the schenario of treating dating as a job application, in which someone else is evaluating (and choosing) you. I think when this happens (when your self esteem is poor, and you put the guy on a pedestal) we tend to get attached emotionally before getting to know the other person. We cling to those who we think have the power to validate us – this doesn´t happen when we´re secure of ourselves.
I think when your self esteem is healthy you can even explore some intimacy (if it goes with your values) without becoming that attached. It will be just a pleasant experience when you don´t believe you are being evaluated by someone who is supposedly superior.
Lilia – yes! you hit the nail on the head. It’s all about self-esteem, if you feel confident and love who you are, and KNOW IT that you are worth it, YOU will do the choosing, not them. When you know that you have a lot of good to offer, and not to just ANYONE. And you won’t give a flyin’ eff if it doesn’t work out.. you’ll just move on and continue with your life as you were before. When you don’t feel good about yourself and you want a relationship so badly, they will get that vibe, and we will be thinking crazy things during the process (will he call? does he like me?). You can still flirt, get a little physical if YOU want to… you won’t let any man steer you in a direction you don’t feel comfortable being in. It’s knowing your worth. A quality man will pick up on that, and before you know it, he’ll be asking you if you want to be exclusive.
I refuse to accept casual treatment from anyone. Likewise, I am tired of being told to “settle” for a person whom I know from past experience aint gonna work. I am also sick of being told to “settle” for being alone for good, especially by folks that are not in that situation. I understand that lonely may be part of my life for a long time but accepting “less than” is worse. I understand that you should not quiz a man about what he is looking for too soon but it becomes really frustrating when dudes say they are looking for a meaningful relationship and but do not want to be married again or aren’t willing to live with me at least part time. What kind of a meaningful relationship can you have with someone you rarely see? I do wish men would figure out what the hell they want before they date. Some attached/player men are very good at hiding their attachments. My at work AC managed to hide his real life for two years and I am pretty savvy. Red flags didn’t appear until the last few months when hot and cold behavior became standard. It’s really easy to suss out marrieds; I keep a subscription to a search service for this and on line frauds and share w/my single women colleagues. Othee attachments are much harder to find, especially when OW doesn’t live here.
This post really hit me–it’s really as simple as the old saying, ‘if you’re going to talk the talk, you better walk the walk!’ Just because we say we want better for ourselves is NOT enough. You have to practice what you preach. Wanting relationships or commitments isn’t weak or silly (as EUs or ACs may have you believe!)
I also think it’s slightly ironic that the moment you decide you want better for yourself that they realize just who you are and what you stand for.
Natalie,
I receive your posts in my email. I’m so glad I’m signed up.
I take issue with most that take a position of advising others, with one exception and you are one of the few (and there are a few!): Encouraging the personal growth of men and women who have been in horrifyingly abusive relationships that stunt (to say the least) a person’s growth and maturity. Further, I really LIKE that you encourage those that follow you, not only to grow personally, but also to do healing work so they CAN be in healthy relationships with others, including with themselves. Hats off! I have great respect for your work and outreach. My post speaks to survivors to choose wisely. I’m glad I did here. Your posts have been a great source of comfort to me on this journey. Thank you.
I recently decided that a break from dating, sex and men was in order. That was over a week ago. I had a conversation with someone where I stated that I know I’ll be ‘tested’ at some point. Then BAM! Saturday night. I am out for someones birthday. I am quite drunk and having a good time. First up, my ex FWB turns up to the club I’m at. We had a casual thing over a course of 2/3 years with gaps. I started to get annoyed with myself for seeing him and I started questioning him about his unavailableness. I suggested a relationship with him but he just looked confused. In truth, I didn’t like him that much I was just confused with how ‘pseudo’ he was things. He was funny, fun and I could talk to him. We got along well. So eventually I said to him that I didn’t mind meeting up for random sex sometimes but I didn’t want any friendly banter or dates. Minimal communication really. It was by text after he failed answer a call.
He never ever replied and I just deleted him out my phonebook, Facebook and my mind. He says he wants to talk to me. We go for a chat. He apologises and says that he knows he has issues with forming attachments and that I’d make a great girlfriend and he realised he couldn’t have the cake and eat it to. I cried a little about something I said (ha ha! drunk) which he called endearing we hugged and I was happy with not falling into his arms.
But THEN, I see this guy. He’s cute, he’s looking at me. I walk over. He looks familiar, he says to me ‘You look familiar. You look like this girl called NK who gave me her number 3 years ago at a bar in this area and I kept her number in my sim card’. I instantly remembered him. He was from waaay up north and didn’t live in London. Now he lives near me. We chatted for ages. He made his moves. We left together and for some reason (!) I let him come home with me. We get it on, but I don’t remember too much to be honest…..drunk enough to have a hazy memory.
I doubt he’ll ever call me, that was a one night stand. If we had not slept together and I just flirted a little and said bye, Perhaps he would contact me in the future. But because of my ban I would of said no to a date anyways.
‘SIGGGGGGGGGGH’
First test, EPIC FAIL.
NK
I’m gonna do my church lady thing and say it’s not a good idea for a woman to get so drunk on a night out she can’t remember what happened. It’s about your personal safety. If you want to get out of the casual sex pigeonhole then – stop having casual sex!
I also think you’re confused. It’s not the sex per se which is scuppering you (I doubt this man was ever up for a relationship), it’s the fact that you don’t take the time, (with both of you sober), to find out about each other. What’s the rush? Is it that you value a man giving you attention? Believe me, I understand that compulsion. Until you get over it (which is entirely do-able), you’re gonna keep making the same mistake.
Hi Grace.
Thanks for stating the total bloody oblivious. I used to drink a lot prior to 2011 then I stopped and reduced. Lately though, I guess I’ve drank more than normal. Drinking so much that I can’t remember part of the night is not the norm for me. In fact its happened a couple of times recently for the first time. I do not want to give you the impression that I was swaying all over the place and speaking like a loon, because I wasn’t. I also know that the guy I slept with probably would not have worked out into anything meaningful.
Saying ‘stop’ having casual sex is well enough, I said that to myself the other day and yet this happened. I don’t fall into bed with someone EVERYTIME I get drunk. Just want to make that clear.
“Thanks for stating the total bloody oblivious.”
I think Grace meant her comment gently, and honestly, almost all of the advice given on BR is pretty “obvious” (or should be) but apparently we need to hear it anyway, or we wouldn’t have ended up here.
Aw thanks Snowboard but I didn’t take offence at all.
Yeah, you’d think that when I was getting pushed down the stairs by the abusive ex that I would have “got it” and left him. I went on to buy a flat with him.And put the deposit down with my savings.
@grace @Snowboard – I wasn’t trying to be offensive. I am not always gentle, I can be sarcastic, granted the internet is not the best place to display sarcasm but that is what it was.
How I can control my behaviour would be a better comment rather than, telling me to stop. Don’t you agree?
NK, I can see this rolling on and on so I’m going to nip this in the bud as I don’t appreciate the sarcasm and tension.
You accuse others of stating the obvious but your comments are a statement of the obvious also, that tell you what it is that you need to do. Over the course of a few comments over the past few weeks, you point out that this casual sex thing is your pattern etc, say you’re having a break, and then do the opposite. You’ve then posted a comment and essentially had a go because you want others to tell you what to do about your issue – you cannot control or dictate what others reply to you, especially sarcastically.
NK, responsibility starts at home. YOU use your brain and tell YOU what to do. If you don’t like what was said to you – ask yourself why and what you would have preferred to hear? There’s your answer.
It is not the alcohol fairy or the booty fairy that made you behave as you did – it was a series of *choices* that you made. You were being self-destructive and you wanted validation more than you wanted the sanctuary of not falling into your pattern. You took the path of least resistance. You lacked self-control and only you can decide if that is influenced by alcohol or your ego. Go to therapy, check out support groups in your area, get a piece of paper and write out the sequence of events and your motivations – what the payoff is for continuing your behaviour – take a break from all things that are a part of your pattern, address your self-esteem issues. It is beyond the scope of the comments for others to fix your problems.
I should add that I appreciate that these situations are not easy to deal with and I feel for you, but taking responsibility for you is a key part of change here. It’s not it is what it is with the sarcasm and it’s not it is what it is with the casual sex. You can choose differently.
“You were being self-destructive and you wanted validation more than you wanted the sanctuary of not falling into your pattern. You took the path of least resistance. You lacked self-control”
“This” is what I couldn’t quite articulate because the thing is, for me, it isn’t ‘bloody obvious’ it is extremely hard to flesh out in real life–cognitive understanding is necessary, but not enough–no it is only at a deeper level of self-awareness where I, as Grace said, “get it.”
For me, I am confident in my looks, always have been, and when men pay attention to me, I feel good enough. I feel confident. I feel special, comfortable, peaceful, all is right with the world, and external validation from family, friends, peers, etc does the same thing for me: it gives me confidence. Confidence is the pay off for me; the confidence of knowing that I am ‘right’; I am doing the right thing, I am good enough…, so I feel comfortable and at peace.
It is my path of least resistance because I seek this out when I am feeling insecure, afraid, and not believing in myself, or I could just be making a decision…or even merely existing in the world.
I remember doing this as a child. Always looking for my older brothers and sisters to validate my choices, decisions, opinions…whatever….
I was feeling insecure about my new position at work. I was thinking that I couldn’t handle my new job, so I sought validation not only from my ‘ex’, but as I was performing my job I started seeking validation from my subordinates and peers.
However, when I was seeking this external validation, it didn’t feel right to me because I have changed. I could feel a disconnect with myself. It has been hard, and I almost abandoned myself to get the validation,..to get the confidence, but I managed to find my way back to self sloooowlly.
I am very strong, but I need to believe in myself more, and that’s what I am doing…minute by minute, project by project. It is scary, and I don’t always get it ‘right’, but I am happy to be finding some clarity right now–it’s funny, I never believed in the saying “fake it ’til you make it,” but I am kind of doing that in a sense. I am just saying to myself, ok, you can do this, just pretend like you can do it, steady as she blows, and see what happens. It’s amazing because the people around me seem to believe that I am confident–I’m the boss–and as I do this, I am getting stronger…more confident.
Thank you Natalie and everyone here, you have truly helped me change my life. 🙂
One last thing, the self-destruction has turned out to be a real key for me because I can see when I start to self-destruct now…a definite pattern that I aim to break. 🙂
Hang in there NK!
Of course responsibility starts at home. I understand that. My point was that I knew that I slipt up in this area and I was sharing this. It wasn’t an invitation for stating the obvious comments. Everyone knows that you won’t change until something inside clicks/changes/etc…. I keep trying to get to that place but haven’t quite reached.
I do not feel ‘better’ about my night out if I’ve met a man, I never ever have that intention. I work in events and I am ALWAYS in clubs/festivals etc…
I know that alcohol brings out that side of me. The point I was trying to make is I’ve gone out and drank many times without this happening. I don’t have a problem with cutting down, thats a good idea. But I believe this situation that happened was unique.
I am already in therapy and I’ve done lots of activities to look myself etc…plus I have other hobbies that do not include drinking and going to bars.
I know its difficult and I am trying not to sound defensive but its a journey and you won’t just be successful straight away. I know this al lot well, as my depression stems from beating myself up every time something didn’t go right the first time. Now I know that it takes a few slip ups first.
NK
I’ve spent a long time trying to word all this so that it doesn’t make me sound like a patronising and downright annoying killjoy but I’m not sure that I can! Sorry – I really have tried, though.
Whether or not you’re in the habit of drinking to excess, I really really really would take a step back from drinking altogether, especially as you’re having trouble laying off the ONS and casual sex.
I think it’s really easy to forget – and I say this as someone who worked full-time as a barmaid for a long while and used to consider the weekend a fail if it didn’t contain at least one session – how booze-fuelled and meat-markety British culture is. It’s really normal for us to believe that a pub is the only place to meet a man or socialise. I believed it for years, but it just isn’t true and it isn’t particularly healthy.
I also used to struggle with casual sex but it stopped being a problem when I stopped drinking. (I’d like to say that I gave up drinking because I’m a coiled spring of willpower and brilliant, but really it just isn’t compatible with having a baby). I’m not sure why this is – apart from the obvious link btw alcohol and beer-goggles/ gagging-fer-it hormones, and I didn’t used to get hammered every time I went out, either.
But…every time I went out I used to hope that I’d meet a man. If I didn’t get eyed/chatted up I’d feel like a failure. I used to be poised to meet someone all the time and when I didn’t I’d feel rubbish and as though I wasn’t going to ever, and then I was prey to whoever came along. And I was always looking at other women and hating them if they were prettier than me.
Also alcohol’s a depressant, which didn’t help a great deal either.
Now that I don’t drink I find that I want to less – it’s nice on special occasions or as a treat, but tbh I much prefer going somewhere where I can natter with my mates, and if I meet a bloke I’d rather have a proper conversation with them than a preamble to a snog. And in general, I feel a whole lot less vulnerable knowing that tonight is NOT going to be a night where I accidentally drink too much and make a huge mistake or an epic fool of myself.
Also, now that I don’t drink I have a different view of socialising, different expectations of relationships with men and different values about what I expect from the people around me. That’s nicer too. A big part of the reason why I used to drink was because I was too socially inept and nervous to approach men otherwise (and also believed that I’d only be attractive to drunk men, sigh). Stopping drinking has forced me to realise that, and address it.
This is just my experience, and obviously yours might be completely different, in which case fair play and ignore me. But it’s something that made a massive difference to my emotional wellbeing and I’m pretty glad of it now.
It’s just occurred to me that having a baby is also not very compatible with having casual relationships as well – so that could very well be the reason that the casual sex stopped with the drinking!
Still, I believe that it did mess with my mindset a great deal. Oh for 24-hour coffee shops. With dance-floors.
@Yoghurt
Yes I have stopped drinking before and can understand this to an extent.
I go out 80% of the time for the music (I’m a promoter), as I am very much into electronic music and I spend my time observing other people who are very intoxicated (drugs and alcohol) and wondering why they do it to themselves all the time. I’ve met lots of other people who prefer the relatively sober life but still enjoy these music events as we can spot each other quite quickly!
I have been ultra depressed recently and I am more or less unemployed so I gave myself some lee way and let myself drink more a few times recently. I’ll be honest here and say that on saturday I gave in pretty quickly and that as Natalie said, it was self destructive. I could easily said no. I would really like to go back and analyse my brain at that time in a deep level to see why I gave in so fast. I’ve been self sabotaging lots of areas of my life for ages and if I’m honest right now I don’t see anyway out…I keep having days (3 days maybe) where I’m all motivated and active something then BAM right back down again. I am on antidepressants and they seemed to be helping, but in the last two weeks I seem to be slipping.I lost my therapist recently because I can’t get out of bed in the mornings most of the time and she is doubting my commitment. I feel like I should just become a junky or alcoholic or marry my controlling ex just because I can’t be who I want to be. Im too much of a coward for suicide.
Hey NK
D’you know, the thing that’s really jumped out at me from your last post is the unemployment. I feel a bit daft admitting this, because it doesn’t compare, but I’m a teacher and atm I’m REALLY struggling with the summer holiday. I’m fine when I’ve got something to get up and do every day but every holiday I find myself lapsing into total apathy, self-pity and irritation. At the minute I could scream because nothing much is happening. And I’ve got a steady wage coming in, a baby to look after and plenty of things that I could/should(!) be doing.
Some people are brilliant at organising their free time, I am not one of them. I suspect, though, that a feature of fb girls is an inability to do the whole delayed-gratification thing. I’m very very bad at organising things or setting up activities or getting going. And when I’m bored or lonely or fed-up, I generally prefer to sit around counting my woes rather than getting up offa my erse and actually sorting something out.
Again, this is me and not you, but if you’re sitting around a lot and don’t feel that you’ve anything to get up for then I’m completely unsurprised that you want to get drunk, get laid and take the edge off your loneliness (I remember writing a history essay on the effects of unemployment at uni, and it’s always been appalling for emotional health, apparently). I would too. It’s boring, depressing and it makes you feel rubbish about yourself.
Also when I was at uni, I got myself into a similar state to the one that you describe. The thing that saved me in the end was, of all things, volunteering to work in a homeless shelter. I had to get up and go to it whether I felt like it or not, or I’d be letting people down. I cut down on the drinking because I couldn’t face frying eggs with a hangover at 8am the next day. And it made me feel better about myself.
I don’t know if something similar is possible for you atm, but my advice would be to prioritise getting out of the house and doing SOMETHING (no matter how dull or irritating). Beating yourself up for your failures isn’t going to do you any good whatsoever, but taking your mind off them might.
I don’t know if that helps at all, but sympathy, also. It’s not a nice place to be. xx
Sigh… one day I’ll post a comment without meaning to append it.
Meant to add, no matter how tiresome or unpleasant an activity might be, it’ll STILL be better than being an alcoholic, junkie or the wife of a controlling AC.
Yoghurt
I read your post above and you could have easily been talking about me (re the being rubbish at organising your free time, struggling with the long summer hols, bad at getting offa my erse… end up doing nothing when there’s a load of stuff to be getting on with that I thought i have got done by now – too fed up to be ersed!… the whole bit). It was like reading someone writing about me! I agree 100% I don’t know who said it (some philosopher): all man needs to be happy is love and work.
The good news: Today I did get up offs my erse and actually did one of those things I promised myself I would do a few times a week all summer hols: I went for a swim in my local pool. I was that pleased with myself, you’d have thought I’d won Olympic Gold. let’s see if I can win another one soon!
NK
You’ve pigeonholed yourself as someone who “can’t”. It’s the plaintive cry of every FBG . It took me three years to get over a relationship that barely lasted a year because I kept telling myself “I can’t”.
I’m not seeing sympathy but I’ve had to take ADs too, been emotionally and physically abused and neglected as a child, been racially insulted, bullied at school, been punched, kicked and choked by a “boyfriend”, spent Christmas in a battered women’s shelter, self-harmed, had sex to hook a man, (this is getting depressing), had heart palpitations caused by stress, been dumped, got divorced, been financially screwed over. As painful as our experiences are we have to help ourselves. Women (and men) who’ve had it worse than me overcome their past, so can I, so can you. They got help, but they sill did the heavy lifting.
I endured with this misery for over twenty years building and building up the denial and excuses (which I recognise in your comments) until I couldn’t stand it anymore and found BR.
Keep your appointments with the therapist (please see that she isn’t being impatient; it’s just not right to blow her off). Kick the booze and sex for, say, a month. If it seems impossibly hard to those things then, yes, sex IS a problem and so is booze despite your protestations. I’m not judging (look again at my disaster list ). It IS all obvious. But that doesn’t mean you should dismiss it. I thought that the obvious wouldn’t work for me either because I was too uniquely damaged. But it did work because I opened my mind to the possibility that I am not an errant helpless freak of nature but “just” another member of the human race, how lovely :o)
If there was a mystery key I would have found it in that twenty plus years, and would gladly give it to you. There is no magic moment. So that leaves the hard work. And it is hard, even the getting out of bed, but more rewarding than continuing your pattern. Bon courage!
I do appreciate your comments @Yogurt and @grace. I don’t disagree with what either of you have said. I am just at a point where I can’t seem to maintain a commitment to much. Therapy,work,volunteering,babysitting etc.. I have in the past applied this notion that if its important or I’ll let people down then I’ll go but seriously, I just don’t seem to care much these days. I am VERY good at excuses and lying to people about my lack of commitment. I have a relationship with 2 girls (aged 13 & 7) I look after them, they are almost like sisters to me. I was suppose to go see them yesterday but I didn’t sleep very well and just stayed in bed without phoning or anything. This isn’t new behaviour for me, I do this ALL THE TIME. Is why I’m not working, I quit my job and got signed of work because I started to stop turning up. Its weird because when things were relatively worse in my life I managed to hold on to jobs, etc..
when things got better I had a breakdown and got fired.
I am quite used to excuses, lying and fronting. Its been my protection for a long time. Because if I showed people what was really going on they usually can’t handle it. I’ve always been seen as strong and independent, but what I really want is someone to look after me. Stupid right? I need to get over this compulsion and look after myself. I’ve had enough!
Aw NK 🙁
I don’t really know what to add to what’s already been said, except that I hope you’ve had a bit of a better weekend and things are looking up.
I know it seems as though you don’t have a choice about this, but hang onto the fact that you DO – and you’re choosing to self-destruct in the same way that you could choose not to.
I get increasingly annoyed by the claims that people ‘can’t help’ behaving in certain ways – it seems compassionate and caring on the surface, but actually it’s really disempowering. I can’t remember a worse feeling than thinking that my entire life was going down the toilet and there wasn’t a thing that I could do to change it. But I could, and you can too.
I’d also advise against ‘waiting’ to find out WHY you’re making these choices before trying to stop them. I’m not sure it’ll help, and probably it won’t be properly clear until things are on the up again. I know that when I’ve gone into freefall it’s either been to a) ‘punish’ someone by ‘proving’ how awful their behaviour was by acting out the awful effects or b) get someone else to swoop in and ‘save’ me.
Neither worked, by the way. I just made myself miserable to no purpose.
Keep trucking on and keep trying – congratulate yourself whenever you manage to do something positive and don’t think that it counts for nothing if you slide back afterwards. Go easy on yourself and set yourself small targets.
And have faith! Even if something seems like the Worst Thing In The World when you’re in bed and can’t be bothered, remember that at the end of it you’ll be feeling better than you did before. Even if you can’t imagine that when you’re making yourself do it.
Big hugs xx
A friend of mine said something that shifted my thinking that I think relates to NK’s paralysis and dancingqueen’s comment below: “You need to act your way into thinking, not think your way into acting. You can’t just think up dinner but if you get out a pan, put something in it and turn on the heat, you’ll have something to eat.” So, now even if I don’t “feel” like doing something, I realize that by going through the motions, I am achieving change in my life.
I think part of what is so difficult about NC for me is that it seems passive but I know that I am actively enforcing my boundaries and preventing opportunities to allow myself to be devalued and disrespected by anyone – including myself.
I cringed reading this post because I did just about all of it! I know now that just by acting constructively (most especially when I don’t “feel” like it!), I will cook up a better life for my self and be much happier.
Thanks Yoghurt!
I hear compassion in your response. I do feel much better, although unfortunately my behaviour that I have mentioned hasn’t changed. Perhaps I shall just stop making these life changing decisions right now. I am not sure if i am ‘waiting’ for these changes. I do know from experience that they usually only happen when you put yourself out into the world and face life fully. Show up for yourself. I am happy that I am showing up for myself in some ways that I never used to, so thats good :>)
I am off on holiday for three weeks so when i get back at least i’ll have been rejuvenating. 🙂
yoghurt: “coiled spring of willpower” … you’re so funny…
…and wise.
NK: it sounds like you’re going through a really, really hard time. even before the unemployed thing came up, which kind of puts this whole discussion off the charts, i agreed with the basic principle of what yoghurt was saying waaaay up there – what these guys think means too much to you. you’re getting much too much validation from a guy’s wanting to bone you, which, by the way, is exceedingly low-quality validation. the alcohol is just an accelerant.
please take care of yourself and love yourself, particularly in this off-the-charts time, so you won’t be so vulnerable to some random bloke’s wanting to get in your panties. you’re worth SO much more than that. the only person who does not know this is YOU. and you and these guys will keep treating you as if you’re only good for a shag as long as you keep believing this – you must stop.
but what FX’s friend says is right – you must act your way into thinking. you must conduct yourself in a way of which you can be proud. THEN you will think differently. you must say “all he wants from me is a shag – but i’m a gorgeous goddess and am worth EVERYthing – so, no! no shag for him.
practice this. and … for good measure … kill the drinking, at least for a while. every friend i had who slept around too much for her own good also had a tumultuous relationship with alcohol – again, drinking is not the cause, it is the symptom, but it is reinforcing the cause.
I think that, to sum it up, this article is basically saying that if we are really being true to ourselves, you could tell by our actions in life who we are and what we want for ourselves. We could literally just shut up already and let the *sum of our actions* speak it all for us:)
@Katy and @ Littlestar when I say discovering several men I am not talking about sleeping around so let clarify that. Just talking about not being serious with any ONE man. Sit back; have fun dating enjoy the “discovery” phase and not allow your self to become attached to anyone during that period. I don’t see how you can become so attached if you unless you’ve given up the cookie”
@ miskwa I wish men would figure the hell out what they want too but we should figure the hell out who we are; what we deserve; won’t tolerate; get some boundaries and stick to them. Nobody wants to be lonely but nobody wants to continue to step in dog shit either. I’ve stepped in Enough to know that it’s time to take a different Route!!!
Awakened
You can get attached to people without having had sex. Sex does kick it up a notch but when you put yourself out there to meet someone you have to accept that you may be hurt, disappointed, make a mistake, embarrass yourself,even have to ditch an AC. You got overinvested in someone you didn’t meet in the flesh. You don’t have to go to the other extreme and say you won’t get attached to anyone until x,y,z. There has to be trust, especially in yourself. You can be fluid. A man brings with himself his own needs, desires, personality, values, wishes. You dont’ know what they will be (which is exciting!) If you can’t risk the unknown, it’s best not to date until you can. You can’t come at it from a defensive position. And, no, it’s NOT the same as throwing yourself into dodgy situations and doing something stupid like signing over your house.
We don’t date more than one person at a time in the UK (or if we did it would be frowned upon), so the concept is alien to us. Maybe it’s a just a cultural difference. But if I was walking through town and saw the man holding hands with another woman because he is multiple dating I would be MAD! Even if I knew he was multiple dating. I think that jealousy reaction is normal.
I AM attached to him and we haven’t even kissed. I also have my boundaries, my values, my beliefs in tact. The two are not in conflict. I also have the safety net of knowing that I was happy before I met him. My happiness does not depend on him but he has made me happIER and gives me encouragement and support, so I would experience loss if it didn’t work out. That’s the risk which, after much crazy anxiety, I accepted.
It’s not about doing the opposite or reacting to what has happened to us before, it’s a different thing altogether. We share the same values on sex, what’s important in life, family, work, morality, duty. I feel that a man like that isn’t going to stab me in the back, even if the relationship didn’t work out. And if it does? Happy days!
I’m not arguing with you btw, you’re giving me food for thought. I’m still finding my way too
On Sunday I celebrated one year of no contact! I learned the power of silence and not engaging with lies and emotional chaos. The anniversaries can be tricky because you might be perversely tempted to get in touch, but never give in to this impulse. I am not completely free of the pain, but I know that I’m gaining insight so I can protect myself in the future. I can see that I was busting my own boundaries and selling myself short. Thanks for your blog and for sharing your wedding photos. Congrats!
@ Lillian Lauderdale If a man wants out because you set a boundary let him walk. He’s just not your MAN and there is absolutely nothing you can say to make him change his mind to be more committed. That should be his choice not yours. . That’s what the EUM and AC’s are all looking for now days. They are looking for a sign that reads Low self esteem; no self esteem and No boundaries OVER HERE… Come and get it… @ LittleStar just said something great but in my own words I’d rather remain single; have my sanity and peace of mind for the rest of my life than to have a man who does not respect me. Who wants all that emotional chaos when you can be happy without it. You don’t have to have a man in your life just to make you happy. Oh If we could only Grasp that. Be happy without one first and the right one will just maybe show up.
Natalie – your posts have got me through some tough times since I spit from EUM/AC/BPD guy in April. In fact, its not only your posts but the responses from the wonderful and inspirational women on this site who have overcome toxic relationships and done what I think is the bravest thing anyone can do – which is to take a stand by implementing NC.
I know how hard it was for me to take a long term view of what was best for me back in April. I was at my most vulnerable when the relationship ended. For a month I checked my phone constantly for that elusive text message. I kept tabs on him through friends. I went to places I knew he would be. Guess what? I thank the heavens I never ran into him. I needed to be saved from myself. I am lucky that at the time, I grudgingly implemented NC in its most basic form – and didn’t phone or text him.
Three and a half months later, there are days where I feel emotional, but much less so than the past. I read posts like the one from vermontgirl above and look forward to celebrating a year of NC, or hopefully being too busy having fun in life to notice that a year has gone by!!!
” When we conduct ourselves with self-esteem by having boundaries and values, only two things are going to happen: the person who wants to engage in a mutual relationship will respect them and the person who isn’t and wasn’t going to respect them anyway is going to walk.”
This is a perfect litmus test but I really struggle to understand how a person can just drop off the face of the earth when they seemingly wanted to continue a realtionship with you just a minute ago. It’s been almost 6 months of NC with someone I was in a LDR for about the same time. It was probably a lost cause from the very beginning: blowing really hot, subtle future faking, lots of texting and rare calls, drip-feeding details of his past, including a string of short-term LDRs, etc. Long story short, it went from hot to lukewarm to cold after a couple of visits, he became super-busy, the amount of communication dropped considerably and I generally felt disrespected and not a priority. I realized that by continuing it I would get myself into something very ambiguous for an indefinite period of time (he kept making plans with me nonetheless). So I decided to cancel my planned visit and informed him about it giving him the reasons for my decision (without blaming him). I intended to end it politely. He… responded with a joke. I went NC immediately because it was the only way to show that I meant what I said and I NEVER heard from him again. I know I did the right thing, and I know my reasons (and he knew them) but I am incapable of understanding how someone can just not care to that extent, dismiss something THEY wanted in the first place labeling it ‘too much work’ and just go on.
Blessing
Not a single word in your comment suggests that he ever wanted a relationship with you or anyone. As for him disappearing, that’s what future faking, hot-cold, “too busy” dripfeeders do. I’m not saying it’s right, I’m saying it’s expected so you don’t get caught out by that again.
Let him stay gone. You did yourself a favour by dropping him. He’s doing you a favour by leaving you alone.
“He’s doing you a favour by leaving you alone.”
The nothing and silence seem worse than hot-cold up-downs and dramatic emotions. But I am finally reading emptiness and silence as a better condition than the illusions were, because the silence is authentic, and now I can think about how to put something true and worthwhile in that space. Being left alone in clear cold real nothing should be seen as a vast improvement on being towed through insane technicolor hallucinations and uncertainties, mind-gaming and spun-up unreal feelings.
blessing
the short of it is that they just want everything on their terms – you (we) don’t really count. What I understand now is that their objective is to get what they want without having to be properly in the relationship. You have your place and so long as you stay in it all is well – with them! It’s macabre, soul destroying dance. Be glad he has buggered off.
“Having boundaries and expecting them not to be busted up never makes someone who was meant to be in your life leave, so if they don’t hang about, consider it a blessing in disguise.”
This really speaks to me – my Mr. Unavailable disappeared for the second time over this last weekend. He then asked for his keys and some “nothing personal” space. This is the man I thought I would spend the rest of my life with.
He is dealing with some things right now, which complicates our relationship. I would have stayed and helped – but he could never say that he wanted or loved me, after 8 months together. You’re not even sure that you even WANT TO BE WITH ME? That’s a pretty basic building block to a relationship. I put my foot down about bounderies – we were not going to be friends with benefits. If he doesn’t want or love me, but we get along, then we are FRIENDS and we will ACT LIKE FRIENDS. Which I guess we weren’t even that. I fear that I was just his crutch and company, because now he has a “friend” in town – the second she arrived, I went from constant contact to falling off of his radar. Maybe it’s a coincidence. Yeah right!
I too have been guilty of looking for the ONE THING that must have happened to make everything fall apart, both this and last time this happened. But I remind myself that there is no ONE thing or event that can destroy us if we were real. No one misunderstanding or grumpy morning or ANY one thing. If we can’t survive one thing – then we have nothing. But it’s hard accepting that someone you LOVE can just… treat you so poorly. You begin to question your own judgment of people – and of yourself.
Anyways, just wanted to vent 🙂 This site is helping to keep me on the straight and narrow. Today is my first day of absolutely no contact! Time to heal 🙂
Island girl- why…oh why, would you want to be friends with a guy who just walked on you not once, but twice?
He is no ‘friend’, friends don’t say.. eh.. nothing personal, but I need me some space. Guy translation: “uhh, I’m a jerk.. I’m seeing someone else, or I know I’m a jerk.. and just need to leave”.
Doesn’t matter if you were his crutch or not… what matters is that you are hurting, he’s a serious “bleep” and do not offer the friend card. If he offers it. Decline. Do whatever it is you need to do.. and stay far away from this one.. do not call. Text. Email. Nada. He doesn’t deserve it. And there is nothing wrong with you. Don’t doubt yourself. You are right about a few things…
“I remind myself that there is no ONE thing or event that can destroy us if we were real. No one misunderstanding or grumpy morning or ANY one thing. If we can’t survive one thing – then we have nothing.”
Put it on a post-it, tape it to your mirror so you can read it every day before you decide to get desperate and pull out that ‘friend’ card. Actually, start calling up your ‘real’ friends… get out and be happy.
You only need to make one choice right now… take care of you. All about you. No one else. Be selfish :).
@ Blessing in Disguise I feel your pain. I hear u ask how can someone dismiss something they wanted. A person will dismiss anything when they are simply not interested. Lots of texting and rare calls not to mention Long Distsnce…. “YAWNS” Can we say too much WORK… My story is very similar to yours. You did the right thing. There is one thing that I will say about our very similar stories. We had NOTHING to LOOSE…
@Awakened, you are 100% right, and whatever I start missing (rolling eyes) my ACs, I will remember your powerful words: “We had nothing to lose!” What did they actually give me – pain, empty promises, appearing /disappearing acts, disappointments etc. I cant even remember anything positive and happy about them, they screw me physically and mentally and now I am on my way to recovery from them! AND it is all self-implemented, I “pigeounholded” myself in these situations as Natalie said, I could have left them early, but I didn’t!
@Thanks NML for brilliant post and useful comments from our ladies!
@Grace yeah u are right you can get attached without haven given up sex with someone but that attachment is alot easier to get over if you haven’t slept with them. All you are attached to is just the illusion or fantasy. No you can’t predict how a man is going to treat you; yes the breakup will hurt; but it will be easier to just move on. That’s all. 🙂
Blessing in Disguise,
It’s hard, I know. I’ve been there. But these guys are insecure, immature, and lacking in emotional depth. In other words, they are too terrified to have a fully committed relationship, so they never invest in one. They do, however, want the facade of a relationship, so they play a little game of cat and mouse with someone who’s insecure enough to go along with their game-playing. In other words, he was never really in it. He was just playing around, and always knew it would one day end. That’s why they don’t ever fight to save the relationship. It was a done deal when it began.
I know it’s painful, but once you build your self-worth and know that you deserve a fully formed, grown up man who’ll love and respect you, you won’t even remember why you were attracted to this loser.
I’ve been more than a year of NC, and I’m a changed person after working on my self-esteem as a single person. I’ll never go back to crumbs. That should be your goal now.
Thanks for this post Natalie, you help me so much you don’t even know! I really needed to read this right now.
I’m a male and I’ve been reading a lot of posts on this site which all make sense.
I’m currently involved with a women who is “not over their ex’ (at least I think she is not) and we are currently have a “casual” relationship. At least that’s what I think it is. She said a few weeks back that “I’ve never been so overwhelmed in my life before and at this moment if i were to have a serious relationship/BF, I don’t think i would be able to give them my all”
So we have been hanging out casually for the past almost 2 months.
So I have been reading a lot of the articles on this website regarding “rebounds” and “casual relationships”. It all seems like good stuff I can relate to but I also notice that you are always referring to Emotionally Unavailable MEN and ASS CLOWNS and how men act in these situations.
So my question is.. does all this advice/info/perspective apply to women as well? Is there a difference between emotionally unavailable men or women, or women or men on the rebound?
Guy,
I’ve known of Emotionally Unavailable Women and female Assclowns, women who string guys along cruelly, just for the sake of getting an ego stroke until something better comes along. They lie, they cheat, they do all the same crap. I think you read more about the guy versions here though, because, a) women talk about their problems more than men do, and b) more women want commitment than men do and take matters of the heart more seriously. I’m not saying there aren’t any men who want commitment (there are lots), but they often take longer to get there than a woman does. And for biological reasons, obviously, women don’t have the luxury of waiting a lifetime if they want the hubby, the kids, the works.
I think people who use others to rebound are selfish and cruel. Just because she’s in pain doesn’t mean she has to thoughtlessly drag you into her situation for the sake of stroking her busted ego. Whether she’s an EUW or rebounding, she’s a lost cause. She said she doesn’t want a BF. Pay attention, trust your gut, and get out before you get hurt.
Guy, I also want to add, some women are simply unable to be single, they need the validation being in a relationships seems to give them – any relationship, casual or serious.
They can be extremely charming, just like the ACs and EU men we talk about here who thrive on the ego boosts by FBGs.
If she says she can´t give a boyfriend her all but she is still having some sort of relationship with you, it seems like you are entering dangerous waters – that is, if you are emotionally available (as you seem to be). I hope you don´t fall into the trap of trying to “win” her affection, you could end up very hurt.
Hi Guy and welcome.
“So my question is.. does all this advice/info/perspective apply to women as well? Is there a difference between emotionally unavailable men or women, or women or men on the rebound?” I’d say, Yes, and Yes. I think all Nat’s posts apply to EU’s generally, female, male, same sex relationships and hetero relationships. It’s a bit different with EUM’s and EUW’s though depending on the “driver vs. passenger” as sometimes females end up the passenger even when we set out to be the driver. But, I think your situation may fall within the Fallback Guy realm. Here is a clue: “So we have been hanging out casually for the past almost 2 months.” It doesn’t matter whether that statement is written by a male or a female in any variation of a relationship, it means the same thing. If she’s not over her ex and you have a casual relationship, the pronouns don’t matter, right? So sorry. Even though the majority of folks on BR are female, we can relate and will be here for you, at least I will. Being a Fallback Option hurts like hell no matter the gender or type of relationship. That is why Natalie’s stuff is so great. It applies across the board with some differences. So sorry Guy. You may want to go NC and order up Nat’s books.
Thank YOU! Exactly what I needed to remind me right now that I am worth more then this…
@ Grace, Harriet, Fearless, Awakened, Kerry
Thank you for your comments and support! I agree with you, it’s just a hard thing to accept.
I had never encountered anything like this before I met him, and he was very persisitent in trying to get me into the relationship, but in hindsight, it is a classic case of EUM. I certainly had my own problems with commitment, but in this instance it was an honest attempt on my part. My friends and family had high hopes for this man seeing how nice and attentive he seemed in the initial stage, my closest friend met him and was under the impression that he was very into me, and they were equally or even more disappointed when it all happened, trying to find ‘normal’ explanations for it, like ‘it was a blow to his pride’ or ‘you hurt his feelings but he will never show it’. But I don’t really think so. I had been in a very painful relationship before that one and as Natalie says, it was exactly the feeling of familiarity that made me get out so quickly – I didn’t want the role I was being offered.
This blog has been great encouragement for me in sticking to NC and provided all the information I needed. I can’t thank Natalie enough and the lovely BR community.
I have been seeing a guy as a friend for almost 4 months now. I thought he seemed interested (he has been texting nearly everyday since I met him, inviting me to group stuff, talking about me to friends, flirting a bit, accepting my invites etc.). Other people thought he was interested too. I started to like him and, after a few drinks once, told him. He said he already knew. He told me that he was cautious (hurt from a previous marriage) and quite liked his single life and wasn’t sure he wanted a relationship (although he had told me previously that he did want another relationship in the future). He hugged and kissed me on the lips and said, “Let’s just see how it goes”.
Since that conversation things have dropped off a bit – less texts, not inviting me to stuff, but still a little bit flirty/huggy from time to time and still saying things like, “You never know what might happen”.
I think I have now accepted that he probably isn’t interested. I am meeting him for coffee and want to tell him that I am going to distance myself for a while. No contact and no meetings. I want to keep him as a friend, but I need to distance myself first before I am able to do that.
I don’t know whether I should explain why I am distancing myself or just tell him that’s what I am going to do and leave it at that. I could email or I could just go no contact, but I feel it’s fairer to tell him face to face. After all, he hasn’t really treated me badly, he’s just unavailable on many levels.
I want to come away with my self-esteem in tact. I need to move away from him because I like him and it’s beginning to hurt me being around him as friend when I want more than that.
Pip
See him in person (in a public place), say your piece. It doesn’t matter THAT much exactly what you say, as long as it’s clear. We stress too much about that.
And also be alive to the probability that you may not be able to maintain the friendship. What’s ringing the alarm bells is him saying “you never know what might happen”. That’s unfair. He’s either in it or not.
Hurt from a previous marriage? Haven’t we all been hurt? It doesn’t give him (or us) an excuse to mess people about. I was tempted to, but didn’t tell the new man about the hurts I’ve experienced. I don’t want him making allowances for me. I can step up.
Don’t read too much into him telling you he would want a relationship in the future. That’s very vague – you don’t want to be on hold, and then have him introducing you to his new girlfriend! There’s nothing wrong with him saying “Let’s just see how it goes”. That’s normal in the early stages of dating but it’s obvious that it’s not going anywhere.
My burgeoning relationship started as a friendship too but when we both declared an interest we got closer, not further apart. That’s how it should look. It should become LESS confusing. Either you progress to a relationship or you decide to just be friends. Friends don’t flirt or future fake. He’s holding you in limbo and you’re doing the right thing by distancing yourself.
DearPipsqueak,
Think there are a few relationship red flags here. He is a flipflopper, he wants a relationship, doesn’t want a relationship, likes his single life,lets see how it goes, you never know what might happen. He was very hot in the beginning and now he has gone off the boil but just enough to keep you guessing. I would have the talk and ask him if he is looking for an exclusive relationship, if he gives a whole load of vague answers, that dont measure up to your hopes its time to just keep him as a casual aquaintance.
Thank you Grace and Truth=freedom. I had more or less come to the same conclusions myself having been a follower of Baggage Reclaim for several years now. Guess I was just looking for confirmation.
Here’s my analogy:
I’m stood at the bus stop waiting for a bus knowing exactly where I want to go. A bus comes along and the driver says, “I might be going where you want to go love, but then again I might not”. So do I get on the bus hoping that I might get to where I want to go and take the risk that I might end up somewhere else and then have the pain of finding my way back to where I started?
Or, do I wait for the right bus to come along that is going exactly where I want to go? Of course the latter is the preferable option.
BUT, you have to let the ‘dithering’ bus move on, otherwise the right bus will not be able to pull in. Makes complete sense when you look at it like this.
Funnily enough I was on a camping/walking weekend with this guy and a few others. There was another guy in the group that I had not met before and he took a very obvious fancy to me. The feeling was not mutual, in fact I found the guy quite annoying and irritating in the end (as did everyone else in the group). He stuck to me like glue and I felt quite uncomfortable. I started to avoid him a little bit and tried to make sure that he couldn’t get me on my own.
At the end of the weekend he asked me if I would like to go walking with him. I said that I would prefer to stick to walking with the group as I enjoyed that.
Anyway, the guy that I ‘like’ thought I had been too hard on this other man. At least this other man went away under no illusions (he knew the feeling was not mutual) and I did not spend the next 4 months confusing him by blowing hot and cold and being ambiguous. Bit hypocritical of the other guy to criticise me for MY behaviour. (He has been dropping in the odd snide remark about various things recently and this surprises/hurts/confuses me a bit).
I have learnt so much from this site 🙂
Hello, love the bus analogy. So true. You were very honest with the guy on the walking group and you are to be commended on that as you were decent to tell him that you were not interested in him in a kind way. I totally agree that your ‘like’ guy is hypocritical. He is so typical of passive aggressive EUM. Blows hot, reels you in, cools his heels and then makes disparaging remarks to send you off balance. Its like they have this tiny chisel that they use to chip away with…ahhh she is confident gotta put a dent in that, she is popular with other people, gotta crack that down the middle, someone mentioned how fit she is, I will call her chunky monkey! Good for you to recognise these signs early.
That comment about disparaging remarks makes so much sense. I wasn’t quite sure why he was doing it, even other people have noticed it. Many of the comments were completely uncalled for.
I have also noticed that when people are praising and complimenting me, he drops out of the conversation completely!
I have Natalie to thank for all of this, without this site I would not have been aware of such red flags, let alone be looking out for them. What an amazing woman, so much insight.
My mum thinks this guy WAS interested, but that I must have said or done something to put him off. I refuse to accept this and tried to explain the ‘One false move’ post that Natalie put up. I’m not sure that mum gets it.
Dear Pipsqueak, Natalie’s post is 100 per cent correct. I don;’t think your mum entirely gets his type of behaviour and I only get it now (and I am 50) with the help and support of BR.
He WAS interested but on HIS terms. How dare he try to chisel away at your self esteem. I was with the exact same type of person and he hated it when anyone made even the slightest compliment and it was like he filed it away to use later to be mean and condescending. YOU have done nothing wrong, you have said nothing wrong but its amazing how they twist things like a tornado. You are very smart to recognise these signs early, some of us have not been that lucky. Hugs.
Truth=freedom – I don’t think I need to have ‘the talk’ with him, I think I just need to distance myself from him. There are too many red flags, it would be unwise to enter into a relationship with such a man.
When I told him that I liked him, I explained that I thought he was interested because of all the stuff he was doing (men don’t normally text everyday, continually invite you to stuff and flirt with you). He brushed it off by saying he was just being friendly, thereby turning it back on me and making it my fault for reading things the wrong way.
Anyway, I love my dog and she loves me. When the right guy comes along, he will love and accept us both for who and what we are.
Thanks for your support.
Pipsqueak – I agree with everything that has been said and need to add that your “like” guy shouldn’t have any issue with your definitively turning down the other hiker. What did he want you to do? Actually go on a one-on-one date hike with this guy so as to not hurt his feelings? No guy who likes you back should be ok with that and he certainly should have supported your level of discomfort with the situation and not taken up for the other guy.
You are doing such a strong and wise thing at this stage in the game and are really looking out for yourself. Dogs make for such great companions anyways! 🙂
Had a chat with the guy yesterday to try and sort out where we stand. I quoted my bus analogy to him and he said it was good apart from the fact that there was never a bus to catch in the first place.
He is still saying that he doesn’t know what might happen in 6 months time. He says it is not me, but his fear. I asked him to be honest with me and to let me know if he thought there could never be anything more than friendship between us. He said of course he would be honest and I hoped he would follow up with a statement that told me that he definitely wasn’t and would never be interested. He’s still not doing that, still being a bit ‘maybe’.
I told him that I may need to distance myself for a while and he said it would be a shame if I felt I had to do that, but think he understands. He also didn’t give me a hug when we parted which kind of suggests he respects what I said.
Should I still back off or wait and hope? He is still saying that all of his earlier actions were him just being freindly and that I imagined his interest (I don’t entirely agree with this, but there is probably an element of that there).
I don’t know what to do for the best now. I tried to get a confirmative answer from him thinking it would make it easier for me to move on, but I am still stuck in limbo.
Also, the fact that he seems to be respecting what I said, makes me think he really is a nice guy.
I guess though, nice or not he is still unavailable to me right now and I shouldn’t waste any more time feeling sad and miserable because the interest is not reciprocated.
I probably need to distance myself until any feelings I have for him have subsided. It’s very difficult to walk away from someone that I enjoy being with and who enjoys being with me too. Maybe it will make me stronger as a person if I am able to do this. Have just bought Natalie’s book (The Fallback Girl) and I’m hoping this will help me.
I really need to read this today. I’ve been the OW for over a year now. I’m totally crazy about him and he is about me too, but not enough to leave his wife. He’s afraid of change, afraid of looking like the bad guy, afraid of hurting people. Where does that leave me though? He actually told me once that having me in his life has made his marriage better because now he doesn’t get hurt and upset by his wife’s rejection of him sexually, her inability to be affectionate and her constant yelling. I am beginning to see that there is no future for us as much as I would love one. He’s told me before that he would never leave her for me and yet at times, he tells me he really feels we will be together “some day.” I’m so confused.
Starling
I understand your confusion completely. And I go through this in my head all the time too. And the conclusion I always come to is that it’s all bullshit. He doesn’t want to hurt anyone? He’s hurting everyone. You, his wife and himself. Life is about making tough decisions and while relationships/divorce are complicated they are not impossible. I get the same excuses and think to myself – he’s scared of hurting people? Scared of the loss? Not scared enough because he is hurting ME and will lose ME – the person he claims to love the most. You are not here to make his bad marriage manageable. And you certainly aren’t there to fulfill only the needs he doesn’t get from her. Change is scary but so is the thought of being in a miserable relationship my whole life. I preach this to my guy all the time (I know, I know) and what I really need to do is look in the mirror and take my own advice. Then confusion and mixed messages get in my head and I am back to square one. I think for these guys it’s time to sh*t or get off the pot…seriously!
Lilian
Well said. I was about to write an almost identical reply to Starling when I saw your message go up. This is my story too, and that of countless other “confused” OW’s.
What is stopping you from looking in the mirror and taking your own sensible advice?
And why do you call him “my guy” when he is married and so belongs to someone else?
Sorry to pose the tough questions but it seems they need to be asked.
I sit here having returned home from seeing the exMM for the last 5 days in a row. It was tough as hell to see him (especially when we were working with the same group and he had to sit so close that I could smell his scent that makes my pulse rise). It is such a relief knowing I will not have to see his lying, cheating, self-serving, using, patronizing, excuse-spewing, stringing-me-along face for a few months. His wife can have him. They chose each other, and they are getting what they deserve.
I deserve better.
So do you.
forgot to add – perhaps it is time for YOU to sh*t or get off the pot.
just sayin’
I completely agree Learner. And I recognize my lack of taking my own advice. I know I shouldn’t wait around for him to make a decision when I can make a decision myself – to leave. It isn’t always so simple when your in the middle of all of it. And because for so long I believed so much of what he was saying – since when we met he was separated and moving forward (not so much right?). That is why I am here, seeking support, and reading the words of the BR community. I am trying to address my fears that I will never find anyone else and learn how to let go of something that is hurting me so badly.
And BTW, I actually NEVER refer to him as “my guy” in my life…it was more of a differentiator when just addressing Starling’s situation versus mine. Trust me, I know he’s NOT mine. That’s the problem!
Starling
Please get with reality. A healthy relationship has nothing to do with crazy. I like the new man very much, he likes me, we share the same values, but no way am I crazy about him. And I would HATE for him to be crazy about me. I hope when he is at work, he works hard, I hope he enjoys his family and friends time, I hope he keeps his commitments that have nothing to do with me. The last thing I want is him mooning about or obsessing about me. THAT IS NOT REAL. You are not in a relationship you are in a fantasy-propelled affair.
“He’s afraid of change, afraid of looking like the bad guy, afraid of hurting people.” Don’t feel sorry for these fearful people. I used to be one and they are a royal pain in the a$$. Maybe his wife IS the antichrist (of which I’m sceptical), that’s not your problem (except you made it your problem). You do say something very astute though – you being there is enabling him to stay in his marriage. Not change. Not be the bad guy. How very very convenient for him. Sucks for you though.
All EUMs are contradictory. One day they’re there, the next they’re gone. One day he’ll leave his wife. The next day he won’t. That’s normal for them. You could spend the rest of your life trying to figure it out or you could tell yourself that you’d rather be with someone consistent and reliable. I’m 47 and met such a person after six years of singledom. It’s entirely possible. You’d have to ditch the MM first.
Married, he’s married. Don’t be confused. Only a nutter would tell you to stick around for another year.
Thank you both for responding. It feels so good to finally get all these feelings out in the open and get feedback!
Sometimes I wish I could talk to his wife and compare notes. I’d love to hear her side of the marriage. According to him, she rejects him sexually and emotionally and he said she has no problem telling him that he sucks. I remember he once told me that he showed up to her work with two coffees in the hope that they could talk, but she rebuffed him. She said she didn’t like coffee, so he ran out and got her a milkshake instead. (When she says jump, he says how high.) As nuts as I was about him at the time, I remember thinking why, after 20 plus years of marriage, doesn’t he know or remember that she doesn’t like coffee?
We have an incredible sex life though. I’ve always been a very adventerous girl when it came to sex so for him, it’s like every fantasy he’s ever had has come true. I’ve often asked him if this was just about the sex and he always says no, that he loves me and that I’m the only woman for him. Still, I remember one time he told me that after his dad died a few years ago, he made it a point to tell everyone he loves them. So how do I know it’s for real or not the blanket I love you he tells everyone?
I have never asked him to leave his wife for me and I never will. If he ever came to me, I would not want it to be because I asked. I would want it to be because he wanted a life with me. I guess I’m just hurting that the longer it goes on, the more comfortable he seems with it. He says he could go on like this for the next 10 years. I’ll bet!
I think he’s kind of whipped in his marriage. His wife is very obese and an alcoholic. I’m trim and I don’t drink. He likes when I wear sexy lingerie for him. Once though, he and his wife and I were all at a social event together. She doesn’t know me and he seemed to take particular satisfaction in giving me a long friendly hug when she was only feet away with her back turned. Also, he’s taken me to their house twice when she’s been out of town. That was kind of disturbing. As a woman, if my husband was meeting another woman in a hotel, that would be one thing, but if I found out he’d brought her to my house and had her in MY bed, that would ramp it up considerably.
There are a lot of qualities I just love about him. They make it so easy for me to overlook the things I don’t and I’m not sure if the things I’m seeing are real or I’m making mountains out of molehills.
Please forgive me for rambling. I just have so much to get off my chest and I am so happy to find a place where I can get honest feedback on my situation and my feelings!
Starling,
You asked for honest feedback. I am 7 weeks out of a horrendous OW situation that lasted 3 years, so I was in your position very recently. Here is my blunt synopsis of what you have written:
1) Your role here is to help him tolerate his unhappy marriage. i.e., You are basically a “supplement”. Is that what you really want?
2) He has openly admitted he will never leave his wife for you. i.e., you have been *permanently* cast/pigeonholed into the “understudy” role. (the “someday” stuff means zilch)
3) You have HIS side of the take on their marriage. Each marriage has two people, and I suspect HE has contributed to its alleged dysfunction too. He is making things “better” for HIMSELF by cheating. i.e., he is not taking constructive action like marital therapy – he is taking the coward’s way out.
4) Your first sentence in this post that refers to you and him involves sex. You are adventurous together and have a sexual connection. Sexual connection is NOT a sufficient basis for a loving, caring, trusting, respectful relationship. Natalie has a post on the hallmarks vs landmarks of a committed relationship. I know it feels intense (been there done that) but lust/amazing sex in itself is not love. I asked the exMM many, many times if he only wanted me for sex. Of COURSE he said no, and that he loved me more than anyone ever. What else would they say? Yes?? Forget it – the easy supply of sex would dry up!
5) You are starting to feel uncomfortable with this non-relationship at the one year mark. He has told you he could go for ten years – Sure he could! Having his cake and eating it too while your soul is gradually destroyed. Nice bonus for him. Path to zero self-esteem for you.
6) He takes pleasure in hugging you in front of his wife, and having sex with you in their bed? I’m sorry but that made me feel ill. He sounds like he loves to pump up his ego – “Look at me – I can have full frontal body contact with my lover while my wife looks on”. Yuck!
7) You say there are things you love about him, but don’t mention any.
Please, please see this liaison for what it is, as Grace has advised. Please read Natalie’s posts on being the other woman, or better yet download her book “Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl” so you can understand why you got involved with a MM.
This man is NOT treating you with love, care, trust or respect and you deserve better.
Hugs to you – I know it sucks to be in this situation. Stick with BR, it is a wonderful community!
@Learner and Grace,
my thoughts exactly.
@Lilian and Starling, these guys are married. Wake up.
I understand how you feel, I do, but I also know that how you feel is all part of living on Fantasy Island – none of it is real – what you’re really doing is “riding solo to Miseryville” (see NML’s Mr EU and the FBG), you just don’t know it yet, but you will. I promise.
You both need to ask yourself some very tough questions. Learner is right – it’s you who need to get off the pot.
As for all the stuff about the wife being a pain in the arse, yells at me, won’t shag me any more…. please, how many times have we heard this ‘so please shag me again’ sob story (sorry for the bad language). Of course she’s a pain in the arse – she’s married to an asshole! It’s the usual denial, rationalising, minimising: if his wife was a decent sort of woman he wouldn’t be a lying, cheating, manipulating, shagging wanker (ooops,sorry again!).
These guys take the attitude that they can piss (oops) all over their dinner and still expect it to taste good. And OWs think the same: that despite all the deceit, the clandestine, cloak and dagger “relationcrap” she’s having with him that somehow she’ll come out of it all with a golden ticket, that somehow she can jump in a bucket of shit and come up wearing diamonds.
Try to stop worrying about how much crap he’s feeding you and start worrying about how much of precisely the same crap your feeding yourself.
Scarlet, this cheating, lying *married* guy must think all his Christmases have come at once with you. You want to know if he really loves you just for you, put away the sexy lingerie and the bedroom acrobatics and see what you’ve got left?
What I realise now in my life is that I got the relationships I asked for and I hate to break it to you but so will you. Be careful what you wish for,it might come true.
Sorry I meant to say ‘Starling’ – not ‘Scarlet’
Starling,
I’m not going to stalk you, honestly, but I feel compelled to comment on these:
“after 20 plus years of marriage, doesn’t he know or remember that she doesn’t like coffee?”
He does know. He’s lying to you.
“he made it a point to tell everyone he loves them. So how do I know it’s for real or not the blanket I love you he tells everyone?”
Why the word “blanket”? Does it not occur to you that these “blanket” I love you *are* real?
“but if I found out he’d brought her to my house and had her in MY bed, that would ramp it up considerably.”
That’s got nothing to do with how special you are or how unpsecial she is, that’s how much of a rat he is. My ex MM of fifteen years ago did the same (I was that special too!) when his wife found out she burned the bed, bought a new one and they slept together in it happily ever after! (or not – but I was history just the same)
“He says he could go on like this for the next 10 years. I’ll bet!”
I’ll bet too. Unless his wife finds out. Or unless you get on a fast bus out of there.
All of this has nothing to do with his wife. Or even with him. Your problem is you, the choices you are making and the choices you are refusing to make. You want him to choose you, but you can’t choose you; you want him love you but you won’t love yourself, you want him to value you but you refuse to value yourself, you want him to be a decent man with principles when you’re not acting decently or with principles yourself. As Grace often says, like speaks to like.
And you’ve pigeon holed yourself in the role of other woman/mistress but you want him to be the one to un-pigeon hole you into a bonafide relationship based on love, trust and respect (!) – it doesn’t work that way. It works in the reverse. You’ve communicated to him quite clearly what you think of yourself, what position your willing to take up and to tolerate, and he believes you. Why would he not?
I’m not trying to be unkind, but you do need to hear this, for your own sake. Many of us have been in that pigeonhole. Me too. and another bad one as well! Save yourself. That’s me done.
Hey Starling, I pigeonholed myself as an OW for two years. The fact that he is married is a mountain not a molehill. As a former OW, I seemed to have missed that mountain or thought I could scale it. Things get twisted in OW land. It was difficult for me to hear that no matter how miserable he claims to be and how awful his wife is, it works for him which is why he’s still there. Your MM sounds as comfy as a pig in a poke. Listen to what he is telling you. Do you really have 10 years to waste? Umm, I could go on. If you won this prize, how would you know that he wasn’t having wonderful adventurous sex in your bed with another woman while vilifying you? When you are put on ice, which happens to all OWs, when he’s doing the hubby thing, I’d strongly recommend downloading Nat’s books and spend every waking moment reading Nat’s books, the archives (and all the comments)on OW’s on this blog. It’s the same story, different day, different continent. Everyday you spend in the OW pigeonhole you don’t know what is real because it isn’t. It’s a fantasy. OW’s are dreamers. I hope you’ll keep coming back. It gets painful when the denial bubble bursts and it sounds like you may be starting to get real. We’ll be here. BTW, it doesn’t matter how awful his wife may be, she’s still his wife and he is choosing to remain married to her. How nice for him that you are filling the alleged gaps in his marriage. What about YOU?
Starling
You feel sorry for him and look down on his wife but you’re the one dressing up in lingerie and performing adventurous sex acts for a married man.
Stop the madness!
I am in same situation Starling. And there is no future. I’m with him during the day and he goes home to her at night and into bed with her. She’s the one who is with him and his family on holidays, birthdays and vacations. Never me. Of course he loves to see you in sexy stuff, what man woulden’t. Its all about the sex with them, tats all. He ges sex from you then goes home to her. If he really didn’t want to be with his wife, he could divorce her. face it..you are is just a f**k to this guy. He is with the woman that he wants to be with, but has you on the side.
Starling- I’ve been in this scenario about 2 years ago. It lasted a year. I worked with him for years b4 anything happend, also from same town, went to HS with him, yada, yada.
On paper, he was the perfect man. Tall, dark, handsome… young.. beautiful house, great career (you get the picture), generous, everyone loved him. He had made subtle hints throughout the years, but I knew better. When I was going through a bad on/off again breakup with an EUM (self-destructive, self-esteem in toilet!), I basically took up the offer of the OW, I gave in (ego stroke). One of my life’s rules I broke, and although we got along like two peas in a pod, attraction/chemistry, off the charts… I never got lost in it. Occasionally, I would fantasize.. what it would be like. And this is no offense to anyone in this situation, but I could never quite ‘grasp’ anyone seriously thinking it would go anywhere, and believing these men when they talk smack about their wife.
They may seem like the most wonderful man in the world, but he has zero integrity and can’t commit. In my situation, which I ended it when I woke up a year later… it turned me off thinking about how weak he really was. Would I ‘really’ want to be with him if he left his wife and family? Umm… no. He’s shown me he cannot commit to one woman (the most important one, who he has children with). Most of the time, these men do it because they can. Not because his wife is this, or that.. or not doing ‘something’ right. They lack serious integrity, and get away with it. Period.
Of course him having you in his life makes his marriage better, he gets to dodge responsibility, and have fun while doing it! I can’t believe he said that to you. Weenie, lol.
Put yourself aside for a minute… have you even thought what’s going on in his wife’s mind? I used to think about that… and I couldn’t live w myself anymore. How do you know what ‘he’s’ put her through? he’s a liar (obviously), so, when he tells you negative things about her (first off, not cool..)do you actually believe him?
“her inability to be affectionate and her constant yelling.” well… yea!! I would imagaine that’s how most women would respond when they get that woman ‘vibe’ that their man is up to no good! For the men.. here’s a bright idea, talk to the wife, go to counseling, go to Aruba… but to involve someone else in something that isn’t working to begin with… the only one getting hurt is the OW, and possibly the wife too (and kids).
Since he can’t take the responsibility of doing the ‘right’ thing, do it for him. You don’t have to be confused. The writing is on the wall, has been from the beginning, walk away… and don’t look back. Cry about it, acknowlege that it’s upsetting, but you have to let it go. Now. And I still miss that guy til’ this day, one of the best times in my life was with him, but knew there was no way in hell I was gonna make my life worse.. and fall for that fantasy…
Dear Starling, I am interested to know about his great qualities that you love about him. There are many red flags in this relationship. He would be quite happy to carry on with the status quo of the relationship as it is for the next TEN years. Whay, thats TEN years of your life during which you will never put yourself out there to find another totally fulfilling relationship. The fact that he takes you to his marital home to engage in sex is absolutely awful and not only is he disrespecting his wife but he is disrespecting you. He is having his cake with lingerie trimmings and lapping it all up. I think the stories about the coffee and the loving terms to everyone at the funeral was just that, STORIES to make you think what a wonderful guy he is. You caught him out, his wife does not even like coffee, bet she was never even in the office. The old saying ‘if they will cheat with you, they will cheat on you’ comes to mind. If his wife is the horrible, yelling,alcoholic, nonsexual, withholding person that he says she is….why would you stay with her? There will be a lot of things that dont add up and make sense. I am so wary of the MM’s that carry on that there wife is the worst person in the world yet would never leave them. I would definately read and re-read all the posts on BR relating to OW scenarios as I think these will be of great help in overcoming this relationship if you want to end it, find your core values as I feel you are being swept away in his, which are non existant.
So why would I stay with someone who treats me bad, when I really want a loving relationship???? Its called low self esteem. I don’t feel “good enough” about myself to walk away from this guy who makes me feel bad. This has gone on my whole life. For me I’d rather get “crumbs” then nothing at all.
Summer,
You seem to have pigeon-holed yourself into the ‘no self-esteem’ box. Time to get yourself out of there?
There are ways to get in control of your self-esteem rather than allowing it to get in control of you. Accepting the crumbs is doing nothing for your self-esteem; it’s making the problem worse.
First place to start is to decide to stop accepting the crumbs – that alone will improve your self-esteem. You’ve identified the problem but you seem to have accepted it as fixed or incurable – it’s not fixed. Why keep making it worse rather than taking steps to improve it.
Hi. This is my first time posting but I have been reading everything I can on the site for weeks. My situation is a little different than the ‘typical’ OW because my ex had already filed for divorce when I met him. I didn’t see myself as having an affair. He never did go back to his wife but the divorce took over a year through a horrible trial. He started off hot, using the need to protect his kids to keep me ‘under the radar’ until the divorce was final. My gut did kick in – I felt disrespected and I voiced my upset. He listened and asked me for patience because the divorce proceeding was out of his control. Well, you guessed it. The wife learned of my existence in the trial, she told the kids, and he STILL would not talk to them or bring me into his life in any way. He pulled away, I pushed him the ‘sh*t or get off the pot’, and he walked away.
Reading the posts from some of the ladies who are blatantly OW, no grey area involved, makes me angry because I realize I was no different — I accepted being in a position of disrespect and let myself be used for as long as I was willing to buy into the crap rationalizations and excuses. Where was my self-esteem? And where is YOUR self-esteem? If we truly love and respect ourselves, we would not for a minute accept this type of relationship. Good s*x is a wonderful thing, for sure, but good s*x can be found with someone else who actually wants to be with us, not use us to satisfy their own needs.
I wish so much that I had told this guy to take a hike. I wrestle every day with the pain of losing the dream of the relationship I thought I was going to have once the divorce was final, but I also wrestle with regret that I didn’t respect myself sooner.
Love yourself and get out NOW!!!
Ellen
Friend of mine is going through similar. Her boyfriend is separated but still married. His wife drops round to his/their house all the time. She still has the keys. My friend isn’t allowed in when the wife is there (understandably). Now she wants her boyfriend to change the locks. Boyfriend doesn’t want to change the locks. I expect the wife would freak if the locks were changed. Too. much. drama. Even if the divorde does all go through, I’m don’t think it’s worth it.
She had a nice boyfriend before but dumped him because he was boring. Well, I guess she’s not bored now.
Grace
“She had a nice boyfriend before but dumped him because he was boring. Well, I guess she’s not bored now.”
Yep. So true. Not bored. Just miserable with the excitement of it all!
Thank you all for your comments. You’ve definitely given me a lot to think about. I really appreciate the feedback! It’s so hard to see things clearly when you’re so emotionally involved.
To answer some of your questions, the qualities I really love about him are his sense of humor, his patience and his gentleness. I guess those are the big three. I am beginning to see how selfish he can be though. Except for showing up for our weekly dates, he doesn’t seem to put much effort into the relationship though he is quick to try to mend things if he thinks I’m angry at him for some reason.
Believe me, I did not feel special when he brought me to his house when his wife wasn’t there. He was almost giddy to have me there and afterward, I felt like he wanted me there so that whenever the two of them argued in the future, he’d be able to look at the couch and the bed we made out on with an evil grin on his face.
The one thing that makes me question if it is about the sex though is that he didn’t know how much I enjoyed it when he first started flirting with me. He didn’t find that out until months later. Also, there have actually been times when he has turned down sex just to go out for coffee and talk.
He even introduced me to his mother and his adult daughter at a social event. Of course he didn’t tell them who I really was. At the time, I was immensely flattered, but later I wondered if he got a secret thrill out of it.
He gives a lot of mixed messages and that’s what confuses me so much.
Starling
Stop calling it a relationship. It’s making you expect the things that come with a relationship. Has me met YOUR family? Where were you on his birthday? Your birthday? Christmas? Thanksgiving. After a year have you spent the weekend together? Gone away on a short vacation? Have you introduced him to your friends? Discussed whether you want children. Talked about the future (next week, next month? next year?)
“Except for showing up for our weekly dates, he doesn’t seem to put much effort into the relationship”. It’s not a relationship, and these aren’t dates. It’s an affair, and that’s what affairs look like. Some push those boundaries and might take you out, or spend more than a few hours with you, I know someone who had a child with HER MM. The other woman is still the other woman. Or the homewrecker. Or whatever derogatory names are in use. I don’t agree with casting the OW as the Jezebel but no-one believes that being the OW comes with rights!
He is married. It’s not the same as being a bit clueless or lazy. It means he cheats, lies and doesn’t have any qualms about taking up your time. He takes money and time away from his family. He doesn’t value fidelity. And he is so comfortable with being a cheating liar, and so certain that you accept your place, he suggests another ten years.
Mixed messages? There’s no “mixed” about being married. He either is or he isn’t. You’re mixing yourself up by expecting to be treated like a girlfriend. You’re not his girlfriend. It doesn’t matter if his wife is fat and makes him fetch milkshakes. See how that stacks up when/if he meets your mother/father/friends. “Here’s X. He’s married but it’s fine because his wife is a beyatch.”
M-A-R-R-I-E-D.
Starling
“The one thing that makes me question if it is about the sex though is that he didn’t know how much I enjoyed it when he first started flirting with me.”
Your logic is lost on me with that one. When a cheating married man flirts with women he’s not thinking about how much they would enjoy it – he’s thinking how much he would enjoy it.
Starling
He may be giving mixed messages, but it’s with a purpose. To keep you invested. To keep you not knowing whether you are coming or going.
If he gave you the true message: “I plan to stay married and lie and cheat to keep you on the side, as a dirty secret, for as long as I can get away with it”, would you still want him?
And even the ten year message is a bit insulting, don’t you think? Why only ten years? Doesn’t he think you’ll be able to do the bedroom acrobatics in ten years? Will he tire of you by then?
I know it hurts to read all this, and I don’t mean to “gang up on you”, I just want to help you see what this really is so you can get out and stop the hurting from being an OW.
Hugs to you Starling, from one who has “been there” just a little while ago xo
@starling
” its hard to see things clearly when you are emotionally involved ”
That is why you must go NC. I think I didn’t understand or appreciate that this is one of the gifts of NC ….it gives you objectivity. And enables you to see things clearly and for what they are ( not much !! )
I also didn’t appreciate that NC is supposed to be tough for the first few weeks …..it hurts , I found it scary to think I was cutting of the possibility of seeing him again……
But once u cut out the excuses and get thro the first few weeks of NC you really do begin to see more clearly.
It’s a gift to yourself.
Ariena,
Don’t be too hard on yrself. That ‘helper’ is a creep. If he is a member of any professional associations report him. He essentially groomed you & then attempted to place you in a situation where he could inappropriately manhandle you. Grace is right. The only learning from it is the need for IRON boundaries. Going to his home was not a good idea, especially if you knew in advance that the wife & kids were not going to be there (not sure if you did or not). Even if you knew this though, it’s stil important not to blame yourself. He is a predator & had you picked as a mark that’s all. HE is responsible for his behaviour not you. As well as the counselling consider a self defence course also so you’d know what to do also in the event that he tried to grab you. Such an incident was attempted upon me in my home once by a shower repair man. He backed off quick bloody smart when I explained ‘no I was not kidding that he should not take another single step any closer toward me & that yes those certificates all over the walls sourrounding us were my black belt certificates ‘. I got him out safely & then called the police. These things can & do happen. Be prepared. T 🙂
Well, he hasn’t met my parents, but he met my daughter. She is 17. She adores him and they are good friends. They share a couple of common interests. He is over 50 and his kids are grown. Sometimes I think he sees my daughter as a pseudo-child of his own. We have lunch together occasionally and one time, she was joking around with him and half in jest, he said, “You’re grounded!” We are all involved in a community volunteer program that has a lot of people and families involved so she sees him as just a close friend of mine. She doesn’t know we’re seeing each other and she’s never asked.
Sometimes it feels like we’re his secret family.
Starling,
It may feel to you that you are his “secret family”‘but fact is you are not his family and I doubt if he or anyone else feels that way. You are projecting your own feelings onto him. I was involved with a MM and also made the mistake of believing that because I had feelings about him that he must feel the same way about me. Judging by his actions it would appear that he did not, and I doubt very much that this MM reciprocates your feelings either. He knows fine who his wife and kids are, and they aren’t you or your daughter. If wife found out, chances are he’d drop you like a hot potato.
Starling,
you can list all the ‘buts’ that you like, but what exactly do these amount to for you in the face of *married*. He’s patient? What’s he got to be patient about? Is he waiting for you to stop being a cheat and a liar and leave your husband?
There’s no such thing as an honest cheat. type this into the search button on BR – Nat has a good article here on that; try also ‘trying to get a relationship through the back door’. You’re kidding yourself on with this guy. You think the problem is his wife. It’s not. It’s him. And it’s you.
I think it’s very possible that Starling’s MM – and yours, Mymble – have/had feelings for the OW. To me, that’s not the issue. The issue is that they are a MESS, and only a fool would put up with it.
Oh Starling, your comment made me cry: “Sometimes it feels like we’re his secret family.” If I’m not coherent, it’s because you hit a really sore spot. You and your precious little 17 year-old daughter deserve better than being some 50 year-old guy’s secret. I’m so grateful my young daughter was going to school on the East Coast when I signed up to be a secret. Even though I’m 35k in student loan debt,it is worth every cent not to have her be some guy’s secret. Kids know way more than we think. I knew way more about my parents than they could ever imagine I knew. I’m sure even though my daughter was 3,000 miles away, she knew. You and your daughter deserve more than to be a secret. Now I’ll go flog myself for subjecting my young daughter to this nonsense. You so summed it up for me. Me and my wonderfully, brilliant, beautiful daughter were a secret? Back to the forgiveness drawing board for me. A frigging, effing secret? WTF was I thinking…okay, breathe, I made a mistake. Your comment will stick with me forever. No more secrets. Okay, breathe…
Learner … so awesome to see the progress. Way to pay it forward.
lo j
aww, thanks.
I find it helps with the process to try to help others, since so many have helped me. You, for example 🙂
“The person who would accept you giving them a low introductory ‘APR offer’ does not appreciate the ‘sacrifices’ and when you have the hidden or even out in the open agenda of having them pay you back at a later date with the relationship that you want, you’re more often than not left empty handed.”
Damn. Just like a credit card offer. So simple (and kinda funny) but deep (especially the bolded part).
Gosh, you’ve all given me so much to think about. I really appreciate the perspectives. This is what I’ve yearned for for so long!
I really don’t see his wife as the problem. I see HIM as the problem. I know he is an emotional coward. He wants everyone to like him. He’s afraid of what people will think of him if he leaves her even though he’s told me that his kids have said they would totally understand if he wanted to divorce her. Sometimes I wonder if he’s getting ego strokes from putting up with an alcoholic who treats him so badly. He told me a couple of times how people have praised him for his patience with her.
I know I make it easier for him to stay married to her. One time, he told me that he doesn’t hate her and that it would be much easier for him if he did. He said he doesn’t even think he could if he tried. I told him I didn’t want him to hate her. I really don’t. (I’ve been a stepmother before so I know how difficult it is for everyone if the parents hate each other.) When I said that, he broke into tears and thanked me. I don’t know why, but I wanted to kick him in the teeth then.
Last Christmas, he bought my daughter a bracelet and told me to give it to her. He said, “If you don’t want her to know it’s from me, tell her it’s from you. I just wanted her to have it.” He gave me a gift card to a sexy lingerie store.
Another time, he asked me if it bothered me when he talked about his wife. He wouldn’t complain about her, but just tell me stuff they were doing or places they’d gone. I replied, “I don’t know. Does it bother her when you talk about me?” He just roared with laughter and then he grabbed me mischieviously and said, “OH YES! It totally pisses her off!” Of course it bothered me! How could he think it wouldn’t?
I’ve kept all these things inside me for so long. It feels so good to get them out and to hear what others who have been there and done that think! Thank you! I am so glad I found this forum!
Starling
the reason you are in this mess and putting up the other woman pigeon hole has nothing to do with what his wife is like, it’s got nothing to do with what he thinks of her, nothing to do with what her children think of her, nothing to do with what you think of her, nothing to do with what you want him to think of her, nothing to do with whether he’s a coward or not, nothing to do with what people will think of him – all of that is bunch of red herrings that are clouding the issue. It’s all utterly irrelevant. The problem here is what you think of yourself.
When I had a thing with an MM many years ago (oh,yes, he was the love of my life; I too was crazy about him and he about me. Yep. Crazy!) I also thought the problem was him – if only he’d get his act together, if only he wasn’t such a coward. Now I know it was me who was the coward and me who couldn’t get my act together. Every complaint/issue you have about him is equally applicable to you really when you think about it. Why wait for him to decide what your future is going to look like – it’s your future, not his! – You need to decide if this is good enough for you or not and if it’s not then you need to move on. If you want to continue as you are then that is your choice, and as Nat would say, you need to own your own decisions and own your own choices. He’s making his own choices, that’s up to him. Your problem/situation isn’t about him and his choices, it’s about you and yours.
Maybe it’s time to put him and his relationship with his wife aside and focus on the choices you are making for you, for your daughter and for your future. Do you really want to still be in this position this time next year, in five years, in ten years? Are you going to leave that up to him – or take control of your own future. Your choice.
Good luck, seriously. (I do feel for where you are right now, which is why I keep responding.)
Fearless, Excellent comment! This is true across the board not just in relationships with MM.
“Why wait for him to decide what your future is going to look like – it’s your future, not his! – You need to decide if this is good enough for you or not and if it’s not then you need to move on. If you want to continue as you are then that is your choice, and as Nat would say, you need to own your own decisions and own your own choices. He’s making his own choices, that’s up to him. Your problem/situation isn’t about him and his choices, it’s about you and yours.”
I feel guilt/shame for continuing to allow myself to engage my ex AC when he would pursue me long after I knew the score. It was up to ME to choose ME. I wanted him to make decisions that were right for me and I thought would make me happy. I held onto the fantasy that he valued me enough to want me to be happy as much he wanted to do whatever the hell he felt like doing! His fantasy was probably that I would accept the status quo because it worked for him… He may be guilty of being an AC but I was guilty of putting myself in harms way for far too long by giving the power to him and his choices. I own this past mistake and, more importantly, my future choices which will not include putting myself or staying in situations that devalue me.
Choosing to be/remain an option while making someone else a priority is disempowering and can’t help but harm our self-esteem and other areas of our lives, too. I won’t be guilty of doing this to myself again!
Starling
“My” (barf) ex-MM also had an “alcoholic” wife though at that point she wasn’t drinking. He was very big on being an alcoholic himself even though he hadn’t had a drink in decades. Fantastic excuse for him to stick his head up his arse and whine about how tough he had it. Note how common it is for these MMs to feel sorry for themselves. It was his excuse for cheating. I don’t know what my excuse was. I was in cloud cuckoo land (where you are currently residing). He did leave her for me (hollow “yay”) only to dump me three months later for – another woman. To cut a very long story short, his ex-wife ended up dead because she started drinking again, and his daughter motherless at a tender age, with a father still bouncing from woman to woman. That’s when I FINALLY realised we could no longer be friends (yeah I kept in touch with him for years). Our values were too different! I sure was being taken away from myself as I listened to him whining about another woman – his daughter this time.
You don’t want what you think you want. As the old saying goes “be careful what you wish for”.
Of all the men out there, of all the options you have (and at this stage lifelong celibacy looks good in comparison), why the eff do you want this? There is no way in this life or the next or the one after that this will end well. The best thing you can do is cut your losses ASAP and exit. Extricate your daughter too. He might adore her while it’s all fun and games and no responsibility. I wouldn’t take the risk of seeing how he is with her should it stop being such a big laugh for him.
Starling
Oh my goodness, I can’t believe how similar is the bullsh*t these guys spew out. You would think they could at least be creative in their deception.
I am going to copy your paragraph, but change the words (and star them)to what the exMM said to me, so you can see how similar it all is:
“(I know he is an emotional coward). He wants everyone to like him. He’s afraid of what people will think of him if he leaves her even though he’s told me that his *son would not be surprised* if he wanted to divorce her. Sometimes I wonder if he’s getting ego strokes from putting up with a *chronically ill wife* who treats him so badly. He told me a couple of times how people, *including his siblings*, have praised him for his patience with her.”
Same, same, same! And even more rubbish about not telling the truth because he “didn’t want to hurt anyone”, and hoping the day would come when he could shout from the rooftops that he loves me (barf). And the gifts – you got a lingerie gift certificate, I got a “self-pleasuring device” from the exMM for my last b’day. It shows you where their thoughts and priorities are when it comes to their OW’s.
And that part about him being insensitive when talking about his wife. Mine once thought it was perfectly fine to tell me he could not communicate with me all day, as he was “taking care of my wife’s needs, like you (I) said I (he) should”. Sure, that is what he SHOULD be doing as a doting husband, but why tell me about it? He truly expected me to be happy to hear he was doing couple-y things with her while I was yearning to be with him, to hear from him.
Of course, now that I am out of denial mode, I realize I had no right to his time or attention anyway (per Grace). Just the fact that he thought it was OK to go on about making sure she wasn’t lonely made me upset (while I was still in fantasy-relationship land).
So, obviously, the exMM doesn’t hate his wife either, and neither do I. He said he could not leave her, as he didn’t think she could cope without him because of her disability, and he would “feel sad for her”. This, while complaining how cold and disrespectful she is towards him.
The facts are: they are with their wives, therefore they choose the wives and NOT the OW’s. They want to keep OW’s on the side to meet their “unmet needs” while not doing a damn thing about the “sorry state” of their marriages. They say they want to be “good guys” and “not hurt anyone” but they are hurting *everyone*.
OW’s are typecast and pigeonholed for the long haul. My therapist says about 5% will leave their wives for their lovers, but rarely do these couples last long anyway. She is counselling a couple right now who both left marriages to be together, and they are having *huge* issues with trust. It’s not surprising, is it?
Have you thought of downloading Natalie’s books? It is great that you are getting new perspectives here on BR, but the books take it a step further.
best wishes to you Starling xo
Love Love Love this! Thank you Natalie. So much good stuff here!