“We have an amazing connection”, insist so many people who are struggling to understand why they’re not experiencing deep, committed, loving, progressing, balanced, consistent relationships with the very people that they’re referring to.
“But, we have so much in common!”, said many a confused person who doesn’t share the common ground of the same perception and commitment to the relationship. They focus on mutual pain, admiration, shared experiences, attraction, hobbies, interests, orgasms, etc. If when it all boils down to it, though, they don’t share core values and aren’t copiloting a mutual relationship together, they’re incompatible.
Having a “connection” and “so much in common” doesn’t cut it. These are not the same as truly knowing a person. They don’t equal being truly vulnerable and authentic within a relationship that’s grown and fostered deep emotional intimacy.
If you are not being authentic, so showing up as you and being emotionally honest in your own inner relationship never mind with your partner, you will have a lot of the hallmarks of an intimate relationship without the intimacy.
You could love and care for someone, enjoy sex and other aspects of a relationship but fundamentally fear the consequences of closeness.
It’s fear that if you’re you, vulnerable and emotionally available (willing to feel all of your feelings and be rooted in reality instead of hiding and struggling with boundaries and commitment), that you will allow somebody to get close enough that it might hurt if they leave, disappoint, criticise, argue/fight with, or reject you.
It’s fear that being you is going to be “wrong”. You fear being unable to cope with their response that you’ve predicted or with your own feelings and thoughts. You don’t want to be under scrutiny, to be judged, to put you out there or reopen an old wound.
It’s possible that you don’t know what intimacy is. You may not have had relationships that you could truly observe and learn from. And you may have assumed that once you felt like you loved and cared for someone and were in a relationship, that you’d either be able to automatically know what each of you wants. Maybe you believe(d) that a relationship would fill a void and that you’d feel confident and in possession of the skills to forge closeness.
I know I’m not alone in having believed that being in a relationship, talking even if it’s not truly communicating, and being in great turmoil due to the rollercoaster of drama, is intimacy. I’m also not alone in having felt a ‘connection’ to people because of what they ‘activated’ in me. They reminded me of one or both of my parents or tapped into old issues. Hell, I thought that if a person cried on me, told me about how their pet budgie died when they were seven or how much they disliked one or both of their parents, or even wanted to get into my pants faster than the speed of light, that these were ‘intimacy’
Intimacy takes time, experience, and vulnerability.
We can have intimate moments with people, and we can share intimate pieces of information. Still, that doesn’t mean that we’re experiencing the intimacy that many of us desire in our relationships. Misunderstanding intimacy is why people wake up in relationships feeling attached and like they have “so much in common” but ‘hungry’. They’re not going in the same direction or feel an ever-growing void emerging. It’s confusing, disconcerting, and frustrating.
They think that they’re deep in the ocean when they’re actually just beneath the ocean’s surface.
When we don’t truly understand what intimacy is, an imbalance will exist in the relationship. One person leads and one person takes their cues. It’s the whole driver and passenger issue that permeates every unhealthy and struggling relationship.
We will lack self-awareness and self-knowledge. In not having an intimate relationship with ourselves, we won’t be able to distinguish between emotional and sexual intimacy. We’ll rely on talking and people-pleasing rather than showing up and deepening the relationship and how we relate over time.
If we don’t know where we end and others begin, we will mistake the resulting boundary issues for intimacy.
We’ll think that letting the other person direct and even feeling excessively emotionally reliant on them to feel worthwhile and purposeful, is intimacy. Nope, it’s faux intimacy.
- Connection isn’t the same as intimacy.
- Common ground isn’t the same as intimacy.
- Liking a person because they appear to be the same as you is a connection not intimacy. This can make for dangerous assumptions.
- Sexual intimacy isn’t the same as emotional intimacy.
- Talking about certain things but ultimately holding aspects of you back out of fear affects and undermines intimacy.
- Speeding through the early phase of a relationship (Fast Forwarding) isn’t intimacy.
- Talking about things that you don’t have the goods in the form of deeds and actions isn’t intimacy.
- Backing away every time it feels as if you’re ‘overheating’ in terms of commitment or closeness, isn’t intimacy.
- One of you being the driver and the other being the passive passenger isn’t intimacy.
- A feeling of closeness in the moment doesn’t make you close.
Here’s the truth: A lot of us can talk about and do a lot of things.
Think back to a past relationship with a Mr/Miss Unavailable:
Maybe one of you talked about your problems or ideas more and even played armchair psychologist. Perhaps you were a Florence Nightingale trying to fix/heal/help/change them. There was an underlying desire and need to fill a void and be validated.
It could be that you also had trouble distinguishing between your respective feelings and behaviour.
Maybe you could talk about work, politics, the environment, your intelligence levels, or text morning, noon and night.
Maybe you were indispensable as a substitute for being vulnerable.
But ultimately, could you hold down a relationship with this person?
When all was said and done and they were right in front of you, and you had the choice between putting you out there based on the past, or fantasising about the future, or being in the present and true, were you able to just be you with no ifs, buts, maybes or censorship?
Were you only putting out as much as you might get back? Or, did you overgive in the hope that it would create a tipping point of them being more available?
Had you taken to pussyfooting around the No Fly Zone topics?
Did you open up initially but then subconsciously (or possibly quite consciously), taken a step back and close up? Maybe you did it due to the lack of response you received or not wanting to rock the boat.
And you’d be shocked at the amount of people who feel a connection and “so much in common” who recognise on reflection that they may have ‘known’ a person but they didn’t truly know them. They were getting a mask.
Unavailable relationships can leave you feeling lonely due to the lack of deep emotional connection as well as feeling adrift from your core self. And you can experience the latter even though you might now know what that is due to always playing roles.
We need to change the way that we think about intimacy. We need to recognise that some of the things that we’re hung up on that blind us like the “connection” and the stuff we claim to have “in common” are not only ways of justifying continuing to invest in something that isn’t going to nourish us, but they’re also ways of avoiding intimacy.
You always know that you’re experiencing truly intimate relationships when you feel nourished by the relationship instead of malnourished or like you’re riding a rollercoaster.
We also need to be more emotionally smart and go through the discovery phase of dating and build a relationship over time. This is far better than trying to force-ripen an involvement with Fast Forwarding. Intensity is a means of avoiding intimacy and realness that ultimately ends up leaving you feeling empty due to the lack of substance.
If we do not know the difference between us and another person, if we are in unhealthy relationships, and if we are ultimately basing who we are around possible reactions, we are not experiencing relationships with intimacy. But we can.
Love, trust, care for, and respect you first. Listen to you. Show up for you.
Your thoughts?
Are you ready to stop silencing and hiding yourself in an attempt to ‘please’ or protect yourself from others? My book, The Joy of Saying No: A Simple Plan to Stop People Pleasing, Reclaim Boundaries, and Say Yes to the Life You Want (Harper Horizon), is out now.
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Great Nat, thank you! Yes, agreed that a strong connection/so much in common/a feeling of closeness isn’t intimacy, and it definitely isn’t commitment. I think this is how we sometimes get sucked into EU relationships. It feels like we’re on the same page about so much, how can they not want the same thing as us?? Even when they are saying this, or saying things like “I still love my wife”, it’s like it doesn’t compute because our feelings and the connection we feel is so strong! But that doesn’t mean it’s reciprocal. We need to use our heads and our hearts in these situations, as I’m learning.
I haven’t spoken to my MM this week and I feel up and down about him but way more “done” than I did before. Getting angry on the weekend about his role in leading me on (and taking more responsibility for my role thanks to your great advice) has really helped kicked me out of the connection/closeness I have been feeling to this MM for almost 2 years now. It’s a griving process but worth it to get on with my life (and let him and his wife get on with theirs).
I’m going through the sad/anxious and angry stages right now where I flip between romanticizing what we felt for each other and that maybe one day, it will all work out (wtf?? do I even want that? No!) and then feeling sad and angry that he is probably thinking this was all just a tryst that happened for him as he was afraid of having kids and the next stage of life (he said something along these lines on the weekend in our last text discussion).
Whatever! Maybe that’s the truth. Maybe his feelings were actually not real. Maybe they were stronger but he couldn’t deal with the real consequences of pursuing this “connection” beyond an affair (all before pregnancy I mean). He clearly has strong feelings for his wife and perhaps that connection is where his heart really was all along.
Who cares though?? I hate this stage of questions. I know I will be truly done with this when I am not thinking about him and what he thinks and what it all meant to him. I don’t know why I care. Can’t wait to be done and to truly break this “connection/closeness” in my head.
Dear Leanne,
I see that you’re getting on a right track, where (finally) moments of clarity and acceptance/grieving mix with “romanticizing”. It’s tough, I’m going through the same stages as you.
But…life goes on, Leanne! No one can take away from us our present, our future. Take charge of your life – present and future.
As for the connection, Nat is, of course, spot on. True intimacy takes time, vulnerability, willingness and availability on both sides. That is what distinguishes long term relationships. We knew that already, right? People in LTR/marriages ideally should have true intimacy, which may ebb at times, but is recoverable – if there is a will. It’s not your fault that you didn’t have true intimacy with the MM. How could you – by definition you can’t have it with an EU and MM. Whether he’s capable of intimacy at all is another question, which you don’t need an answer to. Yes, you are absolutely right that it doesn’t matter whether he has true intimacy with his wife or not. Even if he didn’t, it wouldn’t mean anything to you. Bring your attention to you and your present and future. These are the REAL things, things that matter.
Hugs.
Leanne
I know just where you are coming from although I have to say I am almost a year now of very very limited contact with MM. I have not physically seen him for 12 months. I still think about him though even now and wonder what he really felt and what it all meant to him. He always used to say we had a “connection” and I believed it until I read this article today.
I hope your sad/anxious/angry stage subsides quickly for you, even now I still get flashbacks to things he said and did and I feel those familiar feelings rise to the surface again. It will pass though, I just wish I could completely let go of him in my head.
All the best to you.
The connection will break, Leanne. And when it does, you will see with startling clarity what the reality is with this person.
You are on the right track.
I’m not saying there won’t be times when you might think of him or run into him and feel yourself wavering. You will wonder if you are as far along as you think.
But if you stay out of contact with him, the mist will clear and over time, the feelings will subside. You will see him for who and what he is and you will want no part of it.
It’s been 12 months for me now and I’m not looking back. I’m so done. I wish the same for you, sister.
I agree M. The clarity after 12 months (same for me now) is astounding.
For Leanne, it’s important to establish NC. I wish she could change her job. Or at least a department. It’s not so easy but it’s essential to heal. She will keep seeing him every day. It’s hard to move on in this situation. Leanne, if possible, do look for a new job.
You are in a tough position. Tougher than others. You can’t go NC. He is always there!
Leanne, what you are going through right now is very normal. You are going through Denial/Bargaining/Anger stages all at once. All the ruminating and even hoping secretively he will change his mind, maybe later on. Think and feel all of it. Don’t deny your feelings. Live them through. Write here, bang on the pillow, scream in the car, hit on the shower wall and cry it out. It’s the process. But you will come out of it. So strong, much wiser, and most importantly, much happier and loving YOU. It is worth it. We are here to support you.
This is right on target, an amazing zap of clarity. I only wish I had been open to understanding this 7 years ago. I am a complete sucker for connection and have always considered it intimacy. Thank you so much for this perspective. As painful as it is, I needed to read and understand this so I can move forward and focus on showing up for me.
This is an interesting one, because actually having a connection with a range of people – without the delusion of taking the relationship any further – is very nourishing in itself.
I guess the key here is acceptance, by which I mean looking at the situation as it really IS, rather than trying to distort reality to fit into a predetermined fantasy (reminiscent of Cinderella’s sisters trying to force their large feet into a tiny glass slipper!)
I’ve had a few male friends over the years who were wonderful to their female friends, and awful to partners in (short-lived) relationships; to me it makes sense to look at these guys, look at what you’ve got in common and get the best interaction possible. I just didn’t kid myself that it was ever going to be anything more than that!
I agree, Nutbrownhare. I have good girlfriends with whom I feel there is a connection. As a trailing spouse I’ve moved around a lot and been lonely and struggled when I’ve not found anyone I can connect with.
As you say, I think the key is acceptance and no fantasising. If you can manage that, then having a connection and being special to someone doesn’t always have to spell trouble.
Yes, thanks, Nat. I had a date last night (the first) with someone with whom I felt an amazing “connection” and amazing “chemistry” (the first time I’d felt that since I’d broken up with the EUM 3 years ago) but I am now knowledgeable enough to know that don’t mean JACK. In fact, at one point during the date he asked me if I felt chemistry and I said, “I’ve only known you an hour. I’m looking for more than chemistry.” I plan on letting him unfold, if and when we even go out again.
Diane, I love your retort. You nailed it!
Diane, great job! This is a different guy, not the overweight one, right? Were you the one writing about the overweight guy? I am sorry if I am thinking of someone else.
“Chemistry” is a cliche word in dating. Yes, of course it’s great to have chemistry. I wish people didn’t mention they are feeling it during the first few dates. Just feel it but keep unfolding.
I really like how you handled it!
Sofia, no, this is a different guy. I have my fourth date with the overweight guy tonight. He is (so he says) religiously dieting and working out. I can’t say I have seen much of a difference, but it hasn’t been long since he started. He continues to prove himself to be a really wonderful, reliable, steady, helpful man who is putting zero pressure on me, so I will keep seeing him as long as that is the case.
But very interesting about the “chemistry” guy. (As long as I’m not in a LTR I am free to keep dating.) We had one date and literally from the first minute, I was drawn to him. He has the “predatory stare” that sociopaths have, my ex EUM had it too. He is extremely goodlooking. And he looked at me like he wanted to eat me alive (my ex had that too). However, he also believed in a lot of the same things I do (veganism, etc), and seemed like a genuinely nice person, so I didn’t want to dismiss him because I felt overwhelming chemistry and this scares me into thinking he must be a jerk like my EUM.
At the end of the date, he repeatedly asked me if I would see him again. I do NOT like this question on dates, I think men should wait and ask AFTER the date, so I am not obliged to either say yes or say no to someone’s face. However, when he said “Ok, if you’re not into it, I will stop asking, sorry,” I thought he may not ask again in the future and I wanted to see him, so I said yes.
On the way home, I actually called a friend to describe the date because I was so giddy. I have not done that in the 3 years I’ve been dating since my EUM breakup.
The next day, however, the fade out began. He did not email me all day. I finally emailed him at 9 pm just because I’ve had SO many men tell me that they thought I did not like them, so they disappeared. I thought I would just say thank you, and let him know “Hey, I’m still here.”
He did email back but not until late the next day. He did not bring up another date.
I waited until morning and emailed back. I did not hear from him the whole day.
So despite bugging me for a second date, poof! He must have rethought it.
What I find interesting is how OFF my mind, body, heart and molecules suddenly went. I am dreaming about this guy. I am thinking about him almost constantly. And yet I only knew him for maybe 2 hours!
He must have triggered something deep within me, some sort of insecurity or something. In the past, I would have mistaken this sort of thing for a “soul mates/we’re meant to be together” kind of thing, but now I realize it’s probably some kind of mutual dysfunction lining up.
I’ll still cut him some slack if he comes round asking for a date since it’s early days, but I have a feeling it’s over already. LOL! Will keep you posted.
I definitely don’t like how this started out though. But I also realize it’s my chemicals getting ahead of themselves for some mysterious reason.
Diane,
I think it’s perfectly normal and healthy as well to experience that kind of spark and chemistry and all giddy all over again. It’s good, isn’t it:) ? Means you are alive! And vulnerable and have healthy desires! And still can like a man without having to force yourself to like him (re: overweight guy).
The difference though pre-BR, post-BR, is that how we react after we got hit with the chemistry and sparks, what do we do, how we talk to ourselves, what happens next. Yes, the old me, like you, would already create a picture of happy us together in the lalaland with a family and 2 kids, and whatever else you want to create, whatever your ideal of the future with the guy is. Now though, you calm yourself down and regulate it. Did you notice?
Don’t judge yourself for experiencing all these feelings and sparks. It doesn’t mean, “He must have triggered something deep within me, some sort of insecurity or something. In the past, I would have mistaken this sort of thing for a “soul mates/we’re meant to be together” kind of thing, but now I realize it’s probably some kind of mutual dysfunction lining up.”
No, there is no dysfunction. It’s okay to be attracted to someone very strong. In fact, I think it’s healthy. What matters though how we process it and act/don’t act upon it. How we control the situation and think with our head and not our hearts or genitals.
It’s the first date, and yes you liked him, but it doesn’t mean you are insecure. I think sometimes if we read too much BR we become way too defensive. I mean, it’s good to learn from here as much as possible, but if someone causes sparks, doesn’t mean you are insecure again. The main thing, I think, is how you act upon it NOW, knowing all the stuff you have learned. You are handling it well so far. Just relax and breathe. If nothing happens, he doesn’t become active, oh well, let it go. The good thing, remember, after your ex, you thought nobody could stir those feelings in you… Yes you can meet a person like that. If this is not the right one, there will be another one. There should be a good balance I think. And as we grow and mature, we can discipline ourselves to not overreact to that electrical current. If I knew back then with the ex, I would certainly pace myself. But I just threw myself in it. Our chemistry was AMAZING, and you know what I mean. Nowadays, I would tame my urges and play it cool yet act interested in him. So, unfortunately it’s playing a game somewhat I think in the discovery phase. To act smart and think with your head although you feel like you are about to jump on him. He could be feeling the same thing, trying to control himself by pacing the responses in e-mails/phone calls. So just take it easy and slow and see what happens next.
Don’t think it’s your insecurity. No. You just like him. But now you know better how to act. We have grown up. Yay!
Oh I wanted to add. I had met a guy few weeks ago. I was at a wine bar, tasting some wine and reading and having a good quiet time by myself. A guy came up to me , we started talking, having wine, discussing brief bios about ourselves, and then he invited me to a movie (the movie theater was right next to the bar). I said ok, why not. We went, briefly talked, he took my number. I haven’t heard from him for 3 weeks now. The good thing I deleted his phone number after few days because he had never called. I have to admit I felt such a strong connection to him. Sparks flying!!!! Magnetism, attraction! You know! It was crazy! I had to keep calm literally. I controlled myself very well. Gave him my number after he asked. That was it. Deleted his number so that I wouldn’t be tempted to call him. Glad I did. And that’s it. You know what I would have done preBR? Call him, text him, try to hook up with him, have sex with him, maybe casual, then fall in love and suffer all over again. Now – I just delete and forget and move on. But oh… after the ex, he was the first when I experienced so much attraction. A sweet feeling. But I can move on from it now…
You are feeling and doing nothing wrong, Diane. Everything is good and under control:)
Thanks for the response. Yes, I suppose you are right. I’m definitely hyper-attuned to any EUM-ness these days, and am not really trusting “chemistry.” I did not, however, flush him, and I emailed him back when he did, and kept my mind open. But then he wavered and disappeared. I honestly would not mind if he hadn’t INSISTED on asking me out (3 times!) during the date. Maybe he’s in the hospital, but I doubt it considering he drip fed me emails. I would LOVE to feel that sort of chemistry with someone who also proves himself to be trustworthy, reliable and emotionally available, however, I don’t think I’m going to wait the rest of my life for it. I think if I can get someone like that, then maybe love will follow. We shall see. Overweight guy is not pressuring me. He’s also losing weight! 🙂
Diane, that’s awesome. That you have this attitude about “not waiting forever for the chemistry.” Who knows, maybe the chemistry can grow with the overweight guy who won’t be overweight soon! Today I was thinking about and missing (!!) the chemistry I used to have with the last guy who brought me here. True, perhaps we will never have that again, but we know there is much more to a relationship than that.
Diane, I think you did nothing wrong (though no emailing next time I think – with my recent EUM, I realize that I shouldn’t have emailed that first time, the only time I took initiative and it started off a chain of 8 months of hot and cold on his part till I finally woke up and stopped responding)…
The chemistry is great, but sociopaths that like veganism isn’t really the path to tread. Veganism is not a value really, its just a part of your diet. Its something that someone might need to accommodate in you but is unlikely to affect how they deal with money or treat your family or friends or intimacy or anything.
These stories about men pestering you for dates and then not calling? Ugh. Definitely flush, no second chances. I understand you are dreaming about him, I have done the same. I think the trick is this – dreaming has no cost as long as you dont act on it and as long as this two hour conversation isn’t translated into two years of fantasy. At the end of the day its simple – the person either takes pleasure in your company and wants more of it while respecting your boundaries and being realistic about progression, or they dont.
The thing you said about him triggering an insecurity in you is very very telling. My own feeling is that a good relationship is one where you can maturely assess what it is and walk away with your dignity AND the other person’s dignity fully intact. You might hurt them or disappoint them because they dont want to break up or you dont want to break up, but the break up and staying together are not for passive aggressive, aggressive, abusive, or deceptive or avoiding intimacy reasons. My favorite ex is a person that I found it very easy to walk away from paradoxically – when it wasn’t working, I didn’t try to make it work, I had nothing to prove about myself by staying, I just realized that any more time with him would make me frustrated and then I might treat him badly and I didn’t want to treat him badly. He took it well enough, he was sad, and we stayed in contact for a while, one post breakup hookup and then we moved on with no hard feelings and we never contacted each other again.
The point is — the hooking of insecurity is a sure sign that this is a bad idea relationship. Those relationships are strangely hard to get out of because they are not real, they are two people whose deep underlying fears about themselves and life have clicked and will now be locked in a struggle not to make a more authentic relationship but to have the other person validate our story about ourselves and life.
Normally I would have never emailed, except I’ve had a rash of guys I knew liked me and then never contacted me after the first date. I began to wonder what the hell was going on — was I THAT bad of a date? Curious, I began emailing these guys, saying, “Hey, I guess we’re not going out again, but just wanted to say thanks,” etc, only to get an email back saying they thought I didn’t like them, and then asking me out. I think there’s a thing now where the girl is expected to follow up and say “thanks” if the guy paid for dinner, etc. So just in case that is what was happening, I decided to email and say thanks. When he answered, I answered. Then he disappeared, and that’s where I ended it. I certainly wasn’t going to be like, “Hey, where are you? Why’d you ask me out and then abscond?” Whatever, something must have come up for him, or he had second thoughts, or he freaked, or his ex came back, or whatever, whatever.
But I’m very tuned in to hot and cold now. One guy I thought was pretty cool disappeared after date 2 and then contacted me 3 weeks later (with no apology, explanation). I totally ignored him.
But I agree that the dreaming, angsting was very strange and seemed to tap into some major insecurity on my part. I mean, I only knew him for 2 hours. I think I dodged a bullet, if I was that anxious over a first date, it would have just gotten worse…
Hey Diane, may I say something.?
Is that such big a deal if you don’t hear from this guy for 2-3 days? or even a week? I mean, you were strangers before the 2 hours you spent together, both of you have a life and are not teenagers, so maybe the rythm is just that of two normally busy people? I mean I am not in the dating business but if I were to meet a guy and I liked him, I wouldn’t contact him more often than say a couple of times in the first week(s), because I have my own life to live; in the spirit of letting things unfold naturally, as you say. So that would be *my* own natural rythm, and I would feel pressured if somebody I just met insisted with me with too much contact. Am I ‘wrong’? What do you say? V.
It’s been a week. I would ordinarily agree with you, except that he pressed me three times (3!) at the end of the date if I would go out with him. I finally said yes. And then the next two emails were short and spread apart by days when we’d been emailing regularly up until the date. So it just all adds up for a flush for me. I expect if you have a particularly good date, and esp if the guy is niggling you for another, that within the next day or two, he makes contact and asks you out. That’s just the way I roll. 🙂
Diane, I agree. Considering he was so persistent and then didn’t follow up promptly – that’s a mismatch words/actions. If he were acting subdued and politely interested during the date, then a week or so would be ok to wait and see. When the guy is really interested, I would too expect a follow up within couple days. You are right to flush here. Mismatch of words and actions. If he does turn around today/tomorrow, I would give him a chance for a second date. Perhaps the last one. But that’s it! You have to give people just once chance of a doubt. People could be confused, coming out of a long spell of dating hiatus or forgetting how to do it, too cautious. One date is hard to tell. Just try once more if he does shows up. But don’t contact him yourself. That’s my take on this situation.
Apologize for typos and wrong grammar in my post. Rushing.
One more thing I would like to add is it’s very good we are flushing people quickly on the one hand, but we have to be careful and selective a bit. I think everyone deserves just one more chance (not the 114th one, the 2nd one rather). I am so stale with dating I could use another chance if I mess up maybe soon. What I mean is just let’s see what happens in the next day/two even Friday. If no word up to Friday, definitely forget about it and don’t contact him yourself.
Either way, you are doing great. You are life and BR trained. You handle it very well. I can see from your posts you are in a relationship with yourself: love, care, and respect YOU. You are doing all of that. And that’s all that matters.
Sofia, sorry I didn’t see this. Thanks for your thoughtfulness.
Yes, that’s what I’m wrestling with now. Flush or give one more chance? Is 8 days REALLY that big of a deal? Something about it doesn’t sit right with me, on the other hand, like you said, you never what is going on w someone. And if he truly is in LA (I have my doubts) then he would have been rushed trying to get out there. When I travel I go into a bit of an email hibernation myself.
I see you wrote this on Jan 28. Yes, he did respond, yesterday.
Dianne, that story reminds me of one of my own from about 18 month ago. I had a first meet up with this man, and things seemed ok. When it was time to go, he didn’t ask for my phone number and I didn’t offer it. I believe I would have given it to him if he’d had asked. Anyway a few days later I went on to the dating site I was using at that time and there was a message from him. I thought that maybe he was going to ask for my number, or say that he enjoyed meeting and would like to do so again, or just nice to meet you. His message was something like “So I take it that you’ve decided I’m not the one for you”. Yes, WTF. I wavered between just ignoring and immediate flush or responding. In the end I wrote back “We’ve just met! We had a coffee together for an hour, so its not possible that I could know anything like that”. No response. Triple Flush.
Sounds like he wanted you to make all the moves. Flush!
Seems to be an epidemic these days. That’s how you wind up with people who are “just not that into you,” I think.
This brought me back to my AC long term ex; it had to always be sunshine and rainbows for him, no serious talk (he’d either ignore what I said, or change the subject), there was a connection, lots of sex, talk about babies and living together, but if God forbid, it went beyond that, …talking about desires, dreams, likes/dislikes… He’d avoid it. Always made me feel really shitty. And he’d say, “yup, we made it 4 days without you causing problems. Talking all naughty, having fun, and you had to go and ruin it.” That’s no partner for me. Took me a lot of trials and errors, growing up, and getting mighty peeved, to get my self esteem in order to finally say eff this, and leave. It also took me experiencing another short term relationship w someone else, who actually did try to create intimacy with me, for me to see what I was missing, and what I deserved. Wrong timing though… I needed to take a break from men. Still do!
Demke, I am so glad I read your comment before posting mine! This sounds exactly like an ex-EUM “there was a connection, lots of sex, talk about babies and living together, but if God forbid, it went beyond that”. I have come to terms with the fact that for me personally, it’s a great contradiction in terms and I will never ever understand why having great sex AND him initiating talks about what kind of parents we’d be and what neighborhood he sees us living in and how he imagines me living in his apartment was OKAY. Which is heavy stuff for me (babies? moving in? yes, I consider it pretty serious and one of the most serious decisions, thank you very much) but whenever I opened up and told him that his words or (in)actions hurt me, he’d tell me the same “why oh why did you have to spoil this moment now and bring something from the past?”. All this “let’s live in the now” is really garbage. Now, that we have split up, he claims I “have no sense of context”. So he essentially punished me for bringing up the “context” (my pain and him having an official gf) in the beginning and at the end of this relationshit he wanted to punish me for “ignoring the context” aka the fact that he had a girlfriend. There’s no winning with these EU ACs. No logic or reason works. Mine kept changing his logic according to the circumstances (and I imagine, in accordance with the woman he was at the moment).
The logic is so skewed because they LACK INTEGRITY. There’s no grit. Their values change from moment to moment.
I’d have an anxiety attack in public (and go for a walk to calm down) and he’ll later tell me how it scared him to see that I could just stand up and leave and, he’d then continue, if we had a small child with us? How irresponsible of me! And I felt so guilty and stupid and ashamed that I was so impulsive and unreliable, indeed. Except I was totally disconnected from the reality of what was going on – and I think this is a great sign of the LACK OF INTIMACY – that this man still had a girlfriend, and he was lecturing me on how my anxiety would have been awful for our imaginary child in some imaginary future. Now the hypocrisy of his statement makes me cringe.
Why: All that talk about babies and where you’d live etc. etc. sure sound like future faking to me; inventing and shoring up this fantasy castle in our minds. And that can be a red flag reminding us (me) to slooooooow waaaaaay down and see if it really is manipulative future faking or not.
Here’s my perspective Leanne…from the other side of the fence. No matter how many times I gave serious thoughts leaving my husband, in reality, it wasn’t going to happen. We don’t have children, I have an advanced education, always had secure employment, and made plenty of money to support myself. We are debt-free except for our home and have savings toward retirement. We could have made a clean break with neither of us suffering much financially and we didn’t have the issue of co-parenting children together for the rest of our lives. I could have done it if I really, really wanted to.
But I didn’t, don’t and won’t.
I could give you an infinite number of bullet points to answer the question “Why didn’t you just leave your marriage?” Even on the days I was curled up in a fetal position on the floor in literal physical pain because I didn’t think I could go on another day without being with the OM, I never left. Why? I didn’t/don’t want to. I didn’t want to hurt my husband, I didn’t want to face a future of uncertainty with the OM, and I didn’t want to wade back into the waters of being single. Maybe my saving grace was that I’m rational enough to know it never would have worked out with the OM? It wouldn’t have!!! How would he ever be able to trust me knowing that I’m a adulterer? And how would I have been able to trust him and his EU NPD ways?
The OM and I have done the whole we’re star-crossed lovers, if we’d just met in a different time and place, maybe someday our situation will change, blah blah blah. It’s so freekin’ cliché We aren’t star-crossed lovers, we met in the here and now, and if our situation did change it still wouldn’t work. I’m married and that’s not changing and he’s a narcissist who will never have a successful long-term relationship with any woman because of his stunning lack of empathy for others, inability to see the world from any POV other than his own, his incredible sense of entitlement, and the fact that he’s completely, utterly and hopelessly self-absorbed. He’s been married 3 times. Each marriage lasted 2-3 years and he’s had one live-in girlfriend that stuck around for about 2 years. I’ve no interest in being the 4th wife or his fallback girl for the rest of our lives.
On the flip-side, how did I get sucked into this relationship with him and why have I returned for more after achieving 5 years of NC and a sustained period of indifference toward him? Because of that “connection.” That chemistry I feel that’s like a punch in the gut when I see him. That connection you feel is the honeymoon phase that you never get out of because your relationship never gets off the launch pad. You continue to feel it because your “relationship” is nothing but a bunch of starts and stops, starts and stops, highs and lows, highs and lows that keep you caught up in the cycle. You are addicted to the honeymoon phase and I’m here to tell you, it’s not real. It’s chemistry alright…do some research on limerence and oxytocin and what it does to your brain. It’s an addiction and it’s very, very, very hard to sober up once it’s got it’s claws in you.
To Nat’s point of this post, that connection IS NOT intimacy. If you ever got together with your EUM that honeymoon phase actually lasts about two years. After that what develops is intimacy that comes from sailing through successes and happy times together, growing as humans together and as individuals, making a life for yourselves together, making a home and a family for yourselves together and also weathering life’s shitstorms and lows together. I have history and intimacy with my husband. Regardless of our theoretical ability to make a “clean” break our lives are enmeshed in ways that can’t be untangled.
Why don’t/didn’t I leave my husband? Because the hole I’m trying to fill is inside me. It’s the abandonment issues (thanks Dad!) and the paralyzing fear of rejection that has plagued every relationship I’ve ever had. It’s the lack of confidence and self-esteem. It’s the lack of boundaries. I’ve filled that hole with food, drugs and alcohol at different stages of my life and all that was easy to walk away from. I could try to fill it with an infinite number of husbands and/or lovers and it wouldn’t be a drop in the well of emptiness I had inside me. Through therapy and getting physically healthy again, I’ve begun to recognize and heal from the issues that put me straight on a path to an affair. I’ve begun to find me and live a more honest and authentic life. I fill that hole with what I have and hold dear. That hole has to be filled from the inside out.
Kabbie, may I ask how long it is now that you have been NC with MM? Did you find it in yourself to manage it after beginning therapy or was it going NC that triggered getting help?
Sorry, with OM not MM – assuming he was not also married.
Kabbie, just wanted to say that your post on the previous thread cancels out these questions. Thank you for the insights and wishing you peace and happiness.
Kabbie what an amazing comment. I relate to so much of what you say. I agree with you that the reason that a person stays in their marriage is because….drum roll…they want to. And if they are going to leave, they will do it quite quickly – they want to be with the other person, and they don’t feel right being on the fence, living a lie.
I had an affair with a married man and we both left our marriages despite severe financial consequences and there were children involved. We were a better match for one another than we were with our spouses, that was true. But the “connection”, “chemistry”, etc died after two years, when we were settled into a real relationship. We were still better suited to one another than we were to our exes, but there was still something missing. That something that is missing is inside each of us.
Kaddie,
I’m genuinely curious as to how you can consider that you have an intimate relationship with your husband. By your own admission, you have been lying to him for years. How can you consider yourself close to someone when you are withholding that side of you, a side which affects his relationship with you (whether he knows it or not)? How does lying and cheating factor into true intimacy? I don’t understand.
And it’s not the telling him about your cheating that will hurt him. It’s the cheating itself that has already hurt him, even though you still conceal it from him. He might believe he’s intimate with you, but how can he be when you deceive him daily? You also said he would certainly leave you if he found out about your other relationship. That means a cheating spouse is not what he wants. How is being with you giving him the chance at having an actual intimate relationship? Seems like it’s keeping him from having one, as well as taking away his choice in the matter.
Kabbie –
I agree with Crystal. How the heck can you truly be intimate amongst all the lying about who you truly are and what you do as a defense mechanism. He doesn’t know you and that is cheating him of his intimate right.
Kabbie, your insight is spot on. How lucky are we to have had this realisation? That is all I feel now … lucky.
I am actually grateful to my EUM. My experience with him taught me more about myself than anything. Nat’s writing did the rest.
Surely if we are to enter another relationship, it will be one with the right foundations. We know too much about ourselves now.
Thanks, Kabbie, that was incredibly brave and self-reflective. You are at a level so few people ever really get to. Congratulations to you. That does scare me though, that you went five years NC and through a prolonged period of indifference and then got sucked back in. I am on my 4th year of being apart of my ex, though I have never been able to keep NC very long, but I am rather indifferent right now. How did you manage to get sucked back in? I’m so scared that will happen to me. You may have written this on a different post. I think it’s like being addicted to a drug. You could go 20 years being drug-free and then get sucked back in. You are an addict every day until you die. I love this line: “That connection you feel is the honeymoon phase that you never get out of because your relationship never gets off the launch pad.” So true.
Great article!
Thanks!
@Leann – with all due respect, the MM you refer to is such a pile of poo. He cares about no one but himself. And that’s putting it oh so nicely. Here’s a story I hope some of you can appreciate. My cousin, now in her mid 30’s, was having an affair w a MM for 11 fricken years. We all thought it was a hopeless situation, and she’d never snap out of it. She’s a catch. He, a total jerk. She never got out of the house, but loved her dogs… Started volunteering at pet shelters on the weekends. She met a man who’s successful, good looking, and a total sweetheart. He adores her. 5 months later, they’re living together (with all their dogs) She was more than happy to tell MM to go scratch. And she never thought she’d meet someone that great for her to ever let go of the MM. She did. And she’s so happy.
Please… Stop wasting your precious time on that $&@)(;!)!!!!
Yes. Very true.
I was in a relationship once for over three years which almost ended in marriage, but mercifully ended in a broken engagement.
We certainly had intimacy; we both wanted the same things, and generally had the same values. Until around the 2 year mark, when the impending marriage grew closer, and he began to try to undermine and destroy the relationship, because it was no longer what he wanted.
I had to go through a period of months of not understanding what was going on, because actions no longer lined up with words, even though they had done so beforehand.
I am very glad I didn’t marry that man, but I do grieve the loss of the intimacy that we had. I have never found that again with another man in a romantic relationship, and in fact I think I have consciously avoided it because of the pain the breakup caused me. Hence, a string of inappropriate romantic choices and messy friendships and poor boundaries.
These days, I am once again building up my ‘tolerance’ to intimacy with other people, but in a non-romantic and non-sexual way. It’s really helping. Into-me-see is out there, and it does require vulnerability, but if you’ve been as badly damaged as I have, it’s good to rebuild in small ways, to give yourself some really solid foundations.
Ethelreda, I love the re-spelling of “intimacy” as what it implies: Into – Me – See. That’s so true! You are a wise woman.
Again, I wish it was my own, but I read it in a book, and it helped me incredibly.
Ethelreda,
Were there no signs that he had intimacy issues in the first 2 years? Is wanting the same thing intimacy? Not really. Lots of people want the same thing, yet are very different emotionally. Was he emotionally open the first 2 years and then suddenly shut down?
Whatever, there were signs that he had serious emotional problems, to do with alcohol/violence, but not with intimacy per se. In fact, if anything he was good at developing closeness and intimacy to compensate for the lack of this in his upbringing.
But we were both very young, early 20s (me 20, him 22) and we both didn’t realise how screwed up each of us was.
Both of us found our intimacy deeply rewarding. We planned marriage and children, where we would live, what we would do, as well as our day to day lives together in the present. We had a lot of good times and great closeness, which I don’t regret.
The relationship began to break down at around the 2 year mark, when he began to think of doing postgraduate study in another state. I couldn’t leave the state because of my own postgraduate topic, which tied me to the local area.
As it became more likely that he would get the scholarship he wanted, and as our wedding date grew closer, he began to pick awful fights. The violent incidents increased. I offered a number of times to postpone the wedding/break off the engagement, but his answer was always something like ‘I’ve promised to marry you, and I’m going to go through with it’. Ah, those romantic words every woman wants to hear …!
Finally I broke it off after a horrible last-straw incident. He came to me a few weeks later and offered to give up the scholarship if I would take him back. I told him to go and spend the weekend thinking it over, and then come back and tell me his answer on Monday. He turned up on Monday, and I saw the look on his face, and I didn’t even need to ask what the answer was.
It took another long-drawn-out six months of fighting over the phone, long-distance, to end it properly.
Intimacy was not the problem with us. When I was with him, we were on the same page, and the happy memories far outstrip the unhappy ones. I would say that his and my individual family histories, his problems with uncontrolled anger and violence, and his drinking were the problems for us in those first two years.
The problem in the last 18 months or so was that he wanted out, but didn’t want to lose me, but wanted to leave, but wanted to stay. I didn’t recognise the pattern. I would easily recognise it now, 25 years later. (He married someone else eventually).
I wasted several years trying to find a ‘replacement’ – seeking that intimacy which we had built up, but wanting it overnight. Poor choices followed. I then decided just to screw around, because it was easier and hurt less. Even poorer choices followed, including living with an EU man for another three years in a pretty much non-sexual relationship, while I had one-night stands.
Then the decision to stop screwing around, then the decision to get out of the market altogether, then a long period of singleness which did me a lot of good.
Then a return to the dating pool, only to be snapped up by a very enthusiastic future-faker and textbook EUM! I think we broke up and got back together about six times, because I thought it was the Last Chance Saloon.
Then BR, and a crash course in everything I’d been doing wrong all my life. Then a very firm decision to stay OUT of the dating pool, quite possibly for the rest of my life, and learn to make pasta instead.
And that brings us pretty much up to today, 23 January 2015.
Ethelreda,
Thanks for sharing your story. I guess that first guy still remains the love of your life…however, from what you said, the alcohol and violence would have probably ruined your life with him in the future, especially as more family dysfunction would reveal itself. I know you know this. If you want to learn how to cook pasta, how about a sabbatical in Italy! Lots of gorgeous men who would love to teach you about pasta…
I mean make pasta, he can do the cooking:)
Amen to that … I do have a bit of a weakness for Italian men sometimes … But having heard what actual Italian women say about them, I think I will give it a miss!
Wow Ethelreda, that sounds so much like my ex husband I just divorced! The obvious emotional/ mental/ substance abuse issues, etc., yet far more capable of intimacy than I have ever been! I was the EU one in that relationship, and his abusive, deranged behaviour certainly didn’t allow me to feel safe enough to make any attempt at becoming available and if anything, made me shut down even harder. In fact, I even thought that when dealing with him, I have to become a “nuclear-hardened target” since he was the equivalent of an emotional terrorist!
There were so many areas in which we did connect deeply, including a musical project that could have been (financially) successful if he’d had any will to succeed in anything. We were also faithful to each other and I have never in all those 17 years had any reason to suspect otherwise (well…except for my online affair the last two years after I had mentally checked out of the marriage and was just trying to figure out how to end it).
Unfortunately since being vulnerable to him was a suicide mission, I just kept withdrawing and contracting inward until my world became so small that all I could do was survive from day to day, so I finally ended it a month or so ago and am at the beginning of my process of figuring out who I am now and piecing myself back together after 17 years in a colossally fucked up marriage/relationship. The discovery of BR caused the proverbial scales to fall from my eyes, and now my life’s trajectory finally makes some sort of sense!
“We also need to be more emotionally smart and go through the discovery phase of dating and build a relationship over time rather than trying to force ripen an involvement with Fast Forwarding, which in itself is also a means of avoiding intimacy and realness that ultimately ends up leaving you feeling empty due to the lack of substance.”
What a true statement. I recently came out of a two year relationship with a man who I now know is emotionally unavailable. In the beginning, he was charming, caring, around as to time, and claimed he loved me. However, over time, he shifted the relationship to meet his needs, was so very passive aggressive in the way he responded to me, and clearly, was not into being “intimate” in the true sense of the word and meaning. He did many nice things for me, but then as quickly, withdrew and pushed me away. I was so confused, thinking that the things we did and had in common was “intimacy”. I am now seven months out, most often NC, with a recent nostalgic lapse, where I told him I still cared but understood we should not be together. He told me (email) that he had moved on and there was “nothing more between us”. So hurtful, but my fault for reaching out after so many months. Lessons learned. I am okay, but yet I feel a void because I thought connection was/should have been intimacy. He is an EUM and simply not capable of responding in a way that I wanted.
This post makes me realize that I’ve never really experienced the kind of intimacy you’ve described here. I thought I had it with my last guy, whom I recently parted ways with, but our ‘connection’ was largely a pile of crumbs. We had an epic fantasy relationship going on and it’s been interesting moving on from this and shutting the door for good. I have learned a lot about myself and told myself for the first time ever that I can do better and I deserve better.
There are so many studies and surveys done on why having “so much in common” with a potential lover is a great thing. I’m an introvert and I have nerdy hobbies, so when I find someone who likes the same things that I like, it’s so rare. I get so excited. But to quote 500 Days of Summer, “Just because he likes the same bizarro crap as I do, doesn’t mean he’s my soulmate.” Wrapping my mind around the concept of having stuff in common being a starting point and not the whole relationship is difficult.
My parents don’t have hardly anything in common because of a big age gap and wildly different priorities. I’ve spent most of my life trying to avoid falling for someone I can’t be friends with. Someone I can’t share my hobbies and likes and dislikes with. I get that having a connection isn’t everything, but it’s still incredibly important to me. I want my future lover to be my friend and companion too. I’m not willing to compromise on that. I don’t know where that leaves me or if it’ll just make it harder to find someone I like who is emotionally available. I guess I’ll just have to live my life and figure it out along the way.
MK, this got me thinking about a close friend I have. We share … a certain attitude toward work. She does something quite different from me but we are both very intense people, we like what we do, we are career focused etc. So we find a lot to talk about even though our fields are different. We read very different books, we see very different movies. I think we click because of our values, of hard work, of expanding your mind, our sense of humor, our respect for each other etc.
Does that mean we ‘share’ hobbies? No, we dont.
SO I think your idea that the person has to be your good friend and that friend = connection and connection = intimacy is exactly what this post is about. Think about it another way – you can have connection without real intimacy, but you probably won’t have real intimacy without connection. ‘COnnection’ is often another word for chemistry, excitement, passion, and it doesnt last in that heady way of the early days of a relationship. If you aim for real intimacy, progression, trust etc., then you’re less likely to end up with something empty.
Connection, hobbies, friends are not the same thing at all.
Great comment from Suki here. So I’ll just add another illustration to the point stated above. My very close friend and myself both work in creative industries but very different ones. And, in theory, I don’t like her field (for economic and moral reasons, I think it’s not very viable or beneficial to the society) and I would not want to work there (though I did, for a little). But I love and respect my friend. And, what’s important, we share the same love for “intensity” at work as Suki wrote. We are very attentive to detail and, for example, get almost physical pleasure from seeing things get together and all the tiny teeny details in projects clicking together. So, while the actual fields are different, we do get to talk about our passions and understand each other and get this feeling of being UNDERSTOOD on a visceral level. I don’t want to say it’ll work for everyone, but on this example, I myself learnt that the fact that we don’t work in the same field is only a DETAIL while our PASSION for the work process and perfection is a core value that brings us together.
Now, what is also essential is that my friend and me are considerate of each other’s needs. This includes needs for space and needs for closeness and needs to be heard. And it’s easy to be considerate with her and easy to feel respect with her because she mirrors (and gives) it back just as generously. For me this friendship was one of the core moments when I realized how EASY and DIFFERENT can real intimacy be and feel.
At this point in my life I am becoming more certain that it’s faux “intimacy” that is so complicated. We’re totally exhausted trying to figure out what he said, what he meant, when he’s gonna call, who he’s banging, why it’s always on his schedule etc etc. Faux intimacy is so concerned with detail (as an effort to distract from the fact that the core is missing. probably).
I am not saying that real intimacy does not require effort. Oh yes, it does. But I think you don’t feel drained as with faux-intimacy because a) you’re figuring out YOUR own problems (instead of EUMs) because you want to learn to “show up” for another person + yourself and b) the other person is as invested in building intimacy and giving and exploring as you are. It’s ebb and flow.
Anyway, coming back to interests, I was at my doctors office and she relentlessly caught my bs when she cornered me to dig deeper into my belief of “I’ll never meet anyone as good! I never have before or after!” and she kept pushing me to think of what “so good” meant in the context of EUM. Yes, we did have a connection. But a CONNECTION happens between PERSONALITY, it does not (or almost does not) require an effort on your side, it’s when our idiosyncrasies click that we (or at least, when I) feel “the connection”. But INTIMACY needs CHARACTER (aka that stuff that shows you what values a person has) to click. NML has an amazing article on character vs personality differences.
With an ex EUM we shared many many tiny nerdy things and very unique interests but not to the point of vomit – we still were different people with plenty to discover about each other and teach each other about. Sounds awesome, right? Wrong. With character and intimacy lacking, without being reliable and trustworthy, without being empathic to each other in good and in bad, without such a strong set of values that tells a man “wow, i have no idea what this lady is talking about but I really like how she is passionate about those nerdy things I have no idea about. I want to learn how to be with her and I respect her hobbies however nerdy or silly they seem to me because I like her so so much. And I respect her for respecting my nerdy hobbies too” there is no real relationship.
I can’t tell you how many months I spent thinking to myself about all the music, science, art, kink etc interests we shared with an ex AC just to come back to the REAL world where he NEVER found the time to actually go to those music gigs and see bands that we like TOGETHER. It’s not that he did not have the time to share those common interests we knew we had (he liked TALKING about them, just not DOING them *hint-hint*). It’s that his values and his core, his character was shitty and he had no interest in any progression.
Don’t think you’ll need to settle. But it’s not so black and white either.
I am also an introvert with unusual interests and hobbies. I would agree that the connection thing fosters a feeling of intimacy with us. But I also now get that this feeling, when not backed up by anything else, is essentially flawed.
I’ve spent my life wanting to be understood and accepted. Ironically, the people I’ve chosen to “understand” me have proven the least capable of doing so.
I wish you well. I hope you do find an emotionally available person who shares your interests.
My thought is that these guys weed out FAST in the discovery phase. Our society’s current behavior needs a total upgrade. SMH (shaking my head).
Loved this post, Natalie.
It’s almost embarrassing to admit that I have never been in a truly intimate relationship with anyone, not even myself, until recently.
Now I’m opening my head and heart, and waiting for my higher power to help me find that one person I never would have been emotionally available to until now. I want the next person I kiss to be the last person I kiss.
I’ve got time, no rush.
Meanwhile, I’m forming new, deeper friendships with people like me, who’ve done the work it takes for good self esteem and emotional stability. I don’t want to train anyone or regress to meet anyone at their stage of emotional growth.
I have lots to give, and for once I know I deserve someone who feels the same. This is gonna be FUN!
Great article Nat! Yes, even though I was feeling I had so much in common with my 2 month long distance phone friend that I met online, I have to say, I felt empty after the calls, like I knew something was missing.
This confused me because we had so much in common, same world view, same ideas about how things ought to be, same line of work….yet, there was something not there, something emotional was missing and I felt it, yet couldn’t quite put my finger on it. It felt cold, even though we talked about intimacy and how we wanted to know and be known. Funny, now he’s disappeared.
I was so excited to meet someone (well, we didn’t meet in person) who I had soooo much in common with, yet there was no real sign of intimacy. So, I have to say, I am confused now.
I don’t know what to look for and I don’t know what to think about what I do find. I guess that’s why I allow myself to feel my way through, but sometimes, like this time, I feel even more confused. It sounded good, but it didn’t feel good. Just when I thought the answer was in having the same world view Nat throws this curve ball…gosh, what’s a gal to do.
Oh Whatever, It’s actually really good because your own spidey-senses kicked in and told you there was something wrong. So do see this as a step forward, not backwards.
The ‘something’ that’s missing is HIM. He’s not THERE. I’m not sure he ever was there, really.
It’s like that poem:
Yesterday upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn’t there –
He wasn’t there today as well:
How I wish he’d go to hell …
Ethelreda
Thanks! Yes, I had the spiney sense and I guess it was right, he wasn’t really there.
oops.. meant spidey sense
Whatever, don’t know if this will be of help. I follow a simple rule which I think of as a ‘truth’ that applies to me – when I follow what the historical data of my experience has shown me I feel my own trust of myself and how powerful it is. For me, people (including myself) unfold in real life, face to face. For me I am only emotionally available to myself in the context of relations with other people and hence being open to vulnerability, if I choose to to make an effort in the three dimensional world with other people..if I choose to prioritise this over digital/online ‘communication’ (most especially with unmet people). To me we have not ‘met’ until we have actually *met*. I was burned for a considerable period of time in 2011/12 through prioritising and fantasy weaving around people I had never met, believing I was getting to know these people. I was then burned for a period of approximately three months when I over-invested on the basis of text message communication interspersed with a phone call or two and a few cuddles and kisses. Sometime after all this finished I began to understand what had happened.
I now understand that when I choose the oxymoron of ‘long distance online or even a local online getting to know someone’ I am choosing emotional unavailability – in myself and in the other. The other person does not share my values if they do not want to and choose not to know me in real life. The thing is I don’t choose this way any more.
I am not on any online sites anymore but here’s my hypothetical re LD. If the person is a LD someone who has noticed my profile on a dating site and wants to “chat”, we can do so in real life and begin to ‘get to know’ one another when he happens to visit my city and sends me an email or vice versa. And that’s it.
Sorry, that is, send me an email (because I don’t give my phone number to people in this online context whom I have never met)when he is in my city asking if I would like to meet him for a coffee/tea etc (and vice versa). That would be our first meeting.
Even if I was on an online site these days, I can’t imagine I would get many LD takers who would share my view. And indeed that was the case when I put this into practice for a short time in 2013. So for me, being emotionally available means I am going to end up with local friendships (which I have) and if in the future I begin to get to know a man in the discovery of dating we will be doing so face to face, so he will likely not live a plane ride or further away from me.
lizzp – thanks! I see your point, things really begin after you meet. I’ll try that and I was willing to go visit the guy, but he wasn’t forth coming in moving that forward. He said he was touched that I wanted to meet, then said nothing afterwards to further that along.
Whatever,
Tell him, “Let’s meet at my town. Would you be willing to fly to my place?” Not your place. He should book a hotel room. Ask that question. And then you will see. I guarantee he will find the reasons he can’t. You will end up paying for the flight and hotel. Then, after having a great time, the illusion will evaporate. Save yourself few hundred bucks. I am sorry. Just warning you.
Sofia agree! Over the time I’ve been on BR, I’ve had these little periods of banging on ad nauseum and boring the living daylights out of people about online ‘dating’ – one of my pet subjects. And here I am again going into one of my standard little on line ‘dating’ tips.
Anyway, during my last go at online (first half of 2013) I chose to not participate in LD ‘getting to know’with people who expressed an interest in my profile. If I engaged at all then I needed to have no problem with the basics of his profile (and in contacting me I assumed he’d read the basics of mine until shown otherwise). For me his profile had to say (1) He is single, or divorced – no separateds; (2) He is not more than 5 years younger or 10 years older than me; (3)he is willing to write on his profile explicitly that he is looking for a long term, monogamous relationship. If he had all these things and also wants children then I would not engage because I am not having any more children. Also some other red flags for me on a profile that would cancel out the basics would be stuff like being into S&M, looking for ‘submissive/dominant lady’ and so forth! So anyway… In the subsequent exchange of messages after he has made contact I’d reply along the lines of, ‘thanks but you need to know I don’t do online chatting, seeing as how you live in x and I live in y, how about if you’re ever in y, you send me a message and we can meet up for a coffee. If you’re planning to move over here I guess there’s a chance we could get to know each other.’ For the few LDs who were actually on the receiving end of this message – unsurprisingly I never heard from them again – at least not before I decided to break from online with no definite idea of if or when I might give it another go. Seems to me this way I don’t spend a few weeks in online chat building up fantasies of someone I’ve never laid eyes on in 3 D. I know there’s some sort of diff with two weeks of phone calls but even so – where I’m at it’s a waste of my emotional energy when a person’s actual proximity is at issue. Really, the whole LD thing in online ‘dating’ context is a misnomer to me – if an LD guy even contacts me and his profile says he’s not moving to y then that’s my amber alert that he wants something (fantasy ‘getting to know’, distraction)that I don’t want and certainly don’t value.
(it’s also hard these days not to be aware that there are more calculating scammers out there aiming to cash in on misguided emotional investments to the point that some who get fooled upright their life to go and be with a person they have never stood in the same physical space with. But there’s plenty of info out there on how to spot these and at least the last time I was online – they were pretty obvious. *warning though – I have read that some scammers have also been known to work on the lonely and naive via phone, not just email/chat).
lizzp, EXACTLY. I think your approach is the right one, and is very wise.
It also helps to sort out the fantasists from the Real People. The fantasists who want a pretend relationship will run a mile from the suggestion of an actual real life meeting.
And if you find yourself wanting NOT to meet them, then you’re not ready for any kind of proper relationship yourself.
It’s a win-win situation.
whatever, what does ‘worldview’ mean anyway?
Plus you werent on the same page with what you wanted with relationships – so clearly you dont have the same worldview. Then again, maybe you do, and he’s just not that into you (or you into him, we are always doing pick-me instead of do-i-pick-you). Maybe this is a perfectly decent guy in a bad moment, or doesnt like you or whatever. THat is fine. That is what online dating is for. To quickly assess what works and then move on. The real lesson from this isn’t whether one has to sit nights and see if world views match (how can you tell? the real ‘tell’ was that you felt confused and empty, if your world views really matched you’d at least feel excited and happy. Thats connection, and then you’d need to do more discovery to see if there can be intimacy). The real lesson for you in this I think is that two months phone conversations that seem so intense that you are invested + confused + empty — thats a lot of drama. Thats what you need to cut out.
I think also that … you are perhaps taking it too seriously. Two month online dating that didn’t work shouldn’t make you reassess your dating strategy.
Actually didn’t it work out just fine? Within two months and without having sex (hooray!) you managed to weed this bloke out for his wishy washy intentions? LDR with a wishy washy person? Hell to the no. Boy, you are smart! To get out of that one! Time to change our stories about ourselves. You are seeing this as rejection instead of seeing it as you having successfully navigated a discovery phase. [a too long discovery phase, but you’ll find it smoother next time].
Please ask yourself – what is the lesson for me, what did I learn about how I work in relationships, what did I learn about how online works for me, what were my triggers, how can I be calmer and have more fun next time.[and I’m off to journal this myself!].
Suki, your comment on the discovery phase is interesting. I find it hard to understand how it can be said that there has even been a discovery phase if two people have never met or spent some time together. Both people are at least in a position to understand where actions meet words when they are actually available to each other in three dimensions. Long talks with an unmet person on the phone are long talks on the phone with no actions (beyond making the actual calls). Long talks are only, with an unmet, unknown person, a precursor to organising the first meet up. What has really been discovered about this man (and what has he discovered)? I can’t help but feel that if it’s to be called a discovery phase then it’s a faux discovery phase. The only thing discovered is possibly that neither person is available (ie the LD) and/or has intentions, a desire. or willingness to meet in the first instance (following from which a discovery phase might possibly begin).
The discovery phase can start even before you meet as is the case with my most recent online introduction.
In our interactions in the couple of days between receiving a message through the site and actually meeting face to face I’ve been observant and discovered that what he says and what he does doesn’t match up, that he lazy texts, and is a poor communicator/organiser.
For example when we were making a time to meet he said that he would like to talk on the phone if there was an opportunity before we met. In my reply with my availability and phone number I said that I was home with free time on Wed evening and we could work out a place and details then. We traded a few texts and then Wed evening I texted point blank asking if he was free to talk. No reply. The next morning it’s all ‘I’m sorry I fell asleep’. Uh huh.
Last night it was ‘I had an early start and I’m sleepy. I’ll have a shower and be back’. *crickets* And then the ‘Good morning’ text with no acknowledgment of the no return.
So he’s got a text from me, “We haven’t managed to organise anything for this evening and I also have work drinks so I apologise but I’m going to rain check meeting up. Give me a call if you would like to reschedule.” I got back an “Okay 🙁 “. Whoop de doo.
I very much doubt he’ll work out how to use his phone to make a phonecall so it’s effectively a flush. As my daughter said, “Dump. You snooze, you lose bucko!”
If a bloke can’t manage the simplest of communications when he’s theoretically on his best behaviour in the verge of meeting phase then he almost definitely is not relationship or moi worthy.
I’ve also observed my own reactions to these interactions and I’m pleased with the progress I’ve made compared to pre BR a couple of years ago. No fantasy stories about what might be. No building hopes on a compliment or two. No wondering what’s going on with him and why he isn’t more into me etc. No putting anything on hold while he gets back to me. Faint irritation but otherwise calm and reasoned thinking on my part as well as communicating my boundaries.
If a bloke does manage to not shoot himself in the foot beforehand, and we do meet, then there’s a further opportunity for observation and discovery, and so on; it’s incremental and builds the information that decisions can be made on.
FWD, yeah that’s close to the way I dealt with local online men who were interested in my profile and passed my initial profile red/amber flag test (basic on paper availability single/divorced, looking for long term monogamous etc). Only real diff was I had stopped giving my phone number before our first meeting so avoided a lot of all that text bizzo. After a couple of online message exchanges if he hadn’t proposed meeting up, I would, and if he didn’t start flip flapping or simply not answer, we arranged the date and time. No communication in between except to confirm a day or two earlier via message on the dating site. The men who were happy to follow this all ended up meeting with me for the coffee/tea/whatever (in public place of course). I developed a sort of three strikes and you’re out policy for the flip-flappers. It really reduced the amount of time I had to spend on digital communication with the unmet. I recognise that slight feeling of annoyance and irritation your refer to with flip-flappers – from the online message flip flappers I had to dispatch. I’d say out of all the unmet men who I had online contact with during that period (those who responded to my profile and who then passed my profile test) I ended up actually meeting about 30% or so mostly within a week of first contact. The rest got dispatched for being flip-flappers or in some cases for inappropriate opening comments (sexual boundary busting questions, that kind of stuff).
Totally agree with your approach Lizzp and I spell it out up front.
In my profile I say “I’m looking for… a loving healthy long term relationship based on mutual trust, care, and respect, and I believe the first step in finding it is meeting face to face.” Haha, sound familiar?
If they say they would like to chat or exchange messages it’s, “I’m happy to exchange a couple of messages but as I say in my profile I’d prefer to arrange to meet and have a drink or just go do something”.
Generally most respond positively to this. I’ve been told a lot of women want a life history and undying commitment in a long series of emails before they’ll so much as hand over a phone number let alone meet.
I’ll happily give someone my number a couple of days before we meet (I love the security of iPhone block). This is usually just an easy way to talk and set up a place and/or something to go do. But sometimes it’s another avenue for a person to reveal themselves, as in the case of the latest bloke. I also only respond to texts when I have time on my hour long commute, if I’m not head in a book.
It all really does cut down on a heck of a lot of bullshit and it cuts down on investment where investment shouldn’t be.
Of the blokes I have met they’ve been decent enough but still baggage heavy, or don’t have common values and want the same things in life, or just not what I’m attracted to.
I have a hard time fending off the, ‘That’s okay but you’re great and down to earth and I’d like to be friends” response after I say I’m sorry but I feel we would not suit. For some I’ve had to throw a sop to my Florence by giving them a link to BR before I block their numbers.
*sigh* BR and my daughter and my furry white dogs and my beloved home and fig trees and vege garden and kitchen renovation keep the unhealthy interactions at bay and I am truly happy and peaceable. But tonight I am a little wistful and longing to share and have the intimacy Nat speaks of.
I just started on line dating for the first time. It took a huge amount of courage for me, but so far I’ve been on two dates and it’s been okay. I too, will not consider a separated man. One “currently separated” man emailed me asking to meet up, I politely declined saying I was looking for single or divorced men only. I got an email back about how he was just being honest in his profile so I should give him a chance, his wife is a demon, he has had a really hard year, she is living with another man, he wants a new start…..! Nope. He is already busting a boundary I was clear about in my profile and by email, and I haven’t even met him. Plus, he sounds like an emotional disaster and he has no idea that he is. I feel ready for this though. BR has taught me so much. I can flush no problem and I think I can spot red flags better without the risk of explaining or rationalizing them away just because I find him attractive. I tend to gravitate to the men who have things in common with, but this is only a very thin layer of interest. I am looking for a guy to go do the outdoors stuff I like, but this alone will not do. If his actions don’t match his words, I lose interest. It’s like the old commercial about the lollipop with a toostie roll in the center (tootsie pop)…..how may licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll? I am in no hurry because I have no void to fill. I feel good on my own and being single, so dating is not surrounded with any pressure or timeline. This post on intimacy was a good read for me, right as I jump into the deep end of the pool of on line dating.
Oh..and the flip flappers. I lose interest in them very quick. If they show that kind of disinterest right from the get go, I move on without any hesitation. I don’t flip flop about flushing. BR is the best no nonsense guide in my opinion.
Selkie precisely. Good one. “…I don’t flip flop about flushing”(the flip flappers). Good Lord though, peter piper picked a peck of pickled peppers…or what? :-).
former florences fleet, fluent, flourishing and flavoured with flare don’t flinch, flit or flip flop about flushing floundering flip flappers.
I tired to match this… Flip flopping flatulent fodder feeds fantasy, so flush with finality for freedom from future fumbles.
Lizzp, FWD
Yes, this is exactly how I handle local online interest, a couple of emails, then a meeting. The LD guy was new for me because it is long distance. Thanks Lizz for your tips on handling LD, it does help, as this was my first LD communication that went on for 2 months
…well well well, I just checked my email and Mr. LD has responded, after one week of me leaving him a Happy B-day VM. Says he’s been busy celebrating his B-day with friends and family and getting new clients. So now I have an opportunity to what? Tell him that I don’t appreciate the long silence and that this is not looking like a possible relationship to me.
In all honesty, he is older than I want, 12 years older and our conversations are more like the kind I’d have with a male friend, not a romantic partner. In fact, he’s the kind of guy I wouldn’t mind being friends with, except for the fact that I can’t be friends with a guy because I get emotionally attached if he has any emotional availability and he has some, maybe only a couple years worth, he did tell me that he had problems in the past with abandonment issues and would leave women after 6 years or so (could still be there). Says, he’s had losses, like his father dying that helped him overcome this. Really???
Sh*t, the problem is that I have also just realized that I need to let go of a female friendship as well. Platonic friends can have as many issues as these guys.
This friend is the type that is so highly disorganized that it stresses me out. For example, she’s often very late, once we had a movie to go to and she had the tickets, she arrives 30 minutes after the movie started. Luckily, I was able to talk the movie attendant to let me in.
This happens so often, and most recently we went to her cabin on a remote small island and she forgot her medications that she has to take, which caused this serene place to be a stress zone of problem solving!
Only, she doesn’t show any stress, so I take it on! Like,I tell her as calmly as I can (she doesn’t like it when I stress out) Your appointment to see the doctor that is kind enough to meet with you in like…now…oh,says she, I want to relax and finish my tea….ok, I think you get my frustration! And she hates that I stress out!! NO win situation, I did find out that she had a dad who was militant about time, so I realize that she is rebelling, this 60 year old woman who is a Family therapist is NOT doing her work!
Funny thing is the LD guy is a Family Therapist as well!!! Of course, she is a good listener, which is the only reason I keep her as a friend and I don’t currently have a lot of friends who are available to chat in the evenings for hours, like she has.
Since we came back from the cabin she hasn’t been calling me, I called her to meet up and give her a B-day gift (both her and the LD guy are Capricorns) but I will not be the one to keep up the friendship, I hate this, and I ask myself, is this my intimacy issue? I have tired in so many ways to deal with this friend, I’ve told her about it, and she only gets defensive , so that hasn’t worked. She is kind with words and an AC with actions!!
Sorry, didn’t mean to go into a rant here, but that’s what’s going on for me. This guy is a piece of cake to deal with after trying to deal with my friend!! But, should I? Ok, guys, here it is, I’m lonely and now with this friend potentially gone, I feel the void…yes, I am doing my emotional work with it, but must I drop both Capricorns??
Ah Good Grief Whatever, Something just clicked re your LD phone person, is this the one you were posting on towards the end of last year? He was quite controlling, directing the convos, suggesting you take turns ‘talking’..critical of you even? Wasn’t he a therapist? I can’t remember all the ways you described the interactions but he did sound a tad on the psychopathic side (if it’s the same disembodied voice you’re referring to here). Flush, flush. My lord…do you have a history of being with controlling men?
Lizzp
Yes, I spoke about him in December, but LD is not the controlling one. That was the one before LD and he flushed himself after 6 weeks, he was really controlling, even trying to control how I speak. He was local and realized pretty quickly that he can’t control me. I cannot stand controlling men and they don’t last long.
The LD fellow did say he wanted to be heard fully and he is the therapist. However, the ‘I want to be listened to fully’ comment never came up again and the conversations were very normal from then on. My frustration was that he wasn’t forth coming in moving things forward.
Whatever,
I think you are in denial about the red flags this LD guy exhibits. That’s just my opinion based on your comments. Red flags were up and running for this person from very early on. Even if he’s avoided a certain behaviour since, he has already told you all you need to know. He’s already told you some rather startling things about himself. You just haven’t seem him in action yet, that’s all. It’s playing out at the level of fantasy. And your instinct has already told you all you need to know. Why doubt and second guess yourself?
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/theres-a-difference-between-personality-and-character/
and the comments that follow.
I can’t even tell you how many men I’ve flushed over the 3 years I’ve been dating for stuff very similar to this. (The overweight guy does none of this stuff and reliably and consistently shows his interest, which is why I’m still him despite his not being my physical ideal.) Anyway, there was:
– The guy who didn’t show up on the second date and then claimed to be in the hospital all night without a signal for his phone. Yet somehow he managed to get on a dating site, because I saw when it was last active. Flush.
– The guy who called me at 11 pm instead of the 9 pm time we had agreed upon, and didn’t even open with an apology, just wanted to talk at what was my time to go to bed. Flush.
– The guy who forgot we had a all set up and when I called him (I always call from a blocked line and don’t give out my number) was at a party. Flush.
– Many, many, many guys who seemed to dig me on the first or second date, but then would mysteriously disappear after that, and then pop back up in a week, two weeks, three weeks, and act like no time had passed and have no explanation. Flush.
– Any guy who made me pay for my share of dinner if HE was the one who picked the restaurant and asked me out. Flush.
– Any guy I wasn’t attracted to even slightly after date 3. Flush.
– I don’t have any texting horror stories because I refuse to give out my cell phone number. Nor do I give out my real name, which is far too Google-able. Any guy who doesn’t like that. Flush.
I’m sure there’s a lot more where that came from.
Diane, I sure relate to your “flush” stories! Yes, and I think the healthier I get over time (it’s slow and not necessarily linear) the quicker I reach for the “flush” handle when things seem weird. Last one was a guy who said he’d call before we met for coffee. I didn’t get a call from him, no prob; went to the coffee place anyway. He was a no-show. Then he left me a message blaming ME (something about a phone misconnection), when I was the one who showed up; he didn’t. Flush! It really is getting easier over time.
I’m reading a new book by Susan Elliott about getting back into the dating stuff after a major breakup (mine was a few years ago; I’m over it; he was a cheater). It’s “Getting Back Out There,” and it addresses a lot of this early-dating stuff, our expectations, seeing clearly, not having to hang on when there’s AC behavior, and not having to explain why we’re leaving because of AC behavior,like Nat points out. It’s about dating smart, and it’s a real eye-opener for me; I used to put up with a lot of clown behavior, and now I just smile and Flush!
Thanks, Nina. I will have to pick that up. The “chemistry” guy asked me no less than 3 times at the end of our date if I’d go out with him again, really putting me on the spot, and I said yes. After that, he drip fed me 2 emails over the course of 5 days, and now has disappeared. You really have to wonder what goes through these guy’s minds. I am SO tempted to email him and tell him off, but that would just feed his ego I imagine. He owes me nothing after one date, but to pressure me for another date and then disappear?? Argh. Grow up!
Diane,
I know how you are feeling. In my earlier response to you I told you that I had deleted the guy’s number. The chemistry was so great and the connection was mesmerizing. I knew I would do something crazy after one year of no dating and no sex hiatius, so I just deleted his number from my phone. Just to avoid the trouble – I got rid of it. The guy never called although had seemed very interested. Yes I don’t know what goes through their heads and I don’t care anymore. If he is not into me, no interest, just be it. I move on.
Now that I reread your post and the other one seeing that the guy asked you 3 times if you will see him and now disappeared… That’s too odd. At this point I recommend that you go silent. Don’t e-mail him. Just stay quiet. If he is interested, he will come around. Go on a second date and listen very carefully. Put the emotions aside. If he doesn’t contact you for the second date, forget about him.
I know about the sparks and the crazy energy… trust me. I used to be such a sucker for those. But I think one year of BR and epiphany recovery really made a difference. I restrain myself. And continue living my life. Minus the sparks and another casual sex affair. Luckily.
Hi Nina,
I have heard of that book by Susan. Would you recommend it? I read her book about surviving the break up. I can’t say it helped during the first few days ( I don’t think much can help during the first few days-weeks), but overtime, I would come back to some chapters and reread, it did help. She explained very well about the grieving cycle. When you think you are done and it comes back all over from the beginning! Even the denial / bargaining stage, but all in the diminishing cycles. Like the vortex is getting narrower and narrower and the tornado of grief dies out eventually. No more energy, power, or resources to cycle.
I haven’t started dating yet, but as I am becoming more interested and if I meet someone, it’s good to read on the subject. So I will get the book I think. Thanks for reminding about it. I read about the new book on Susan’s blog, which by the way, how I found about BR! There was a link on her blog to BR.
world view is how we see the world, similar values, similar ideas about things. We seemed to be on the same page about many things. Well, I can tell a lot about a guy from a phone call and if we’re not on the same page about life, or going in a similar direction, then why bother!
I spoke to a local guy on the phone that a church friend introduced me to at a party. The reason his relationship didn’t work with my church friend would be the same reason it wouldn’t work with me, so why bother trying.
However, you are right about LD being wishy washy, and he never set phone dates at the end of our calls, so I didn’t like that. Anyways, I learned that, as Nat points out, you need more than connection to make it work.
Natalie,you’re a precious gift. I read your posts for wisdom, insight, and guidance, every day. They’re like my daily vitamin! I was drawn into a dynamic with an EU who I shared a deep connection with, or so I thought. Many isolated emotionally powerful moments that I thought bonded us, mainly centered around being there for one another in times of grief & loss. But the majority of the time he took zero initiative and I didn’t feel cared about. I always made excuses for him blowing hot & cold, tossing crumbs, ignoring me so much, and going MIA for wks/months after these powerful emotional “moments”. I finally realized what we had was unbalanced, unhealthy, and unfulfilling for me, and incredibly damaging really. I chased his attention, overshared (unconsciously hoping he’d reciprocate), and never felt more vulnerable and plain bat-sh*t crazy in my life! Lost my self-awareness and self esteem trying to make him want to be in a relationship with mutual care, trust, respect, and effort. What he felt, even when he said he loved me, was gratitude. Not love, not friendship – those relationships take two. Gratitude takes just one. His comfort zone clearly didn’t include being in with both feet, or being vulnerable. I’d shared soooo much with him, & felt sick to my stomach when it finally dawned on me what I thought we “had” was so much less than it really was. I felt like I was completely naked in a brightly lit room and he was there… admiring my rawness & vulnerability…but he was there in a 3-piece suit, with like 2 buttons undone! It feels terrifying and doesn’t help to cover up, it’s too late, he already saw me naked! All I wanted to do was get the hell out of that room, and I went NC. Healed, focused on me, and owned up to my part in allowing myself to slip so far down that rabbit hole. I’d gotten too close and invested too much to ever think of him as a casual friend, there was nothing left to save there. He’s a good man with a good heart, but it brought me no joy to always feel like I was throwing myself against a wall he had no intention of taking down. Can’t say enough about how the comments from so many of your amazing readers have given me affirmation and made me feel less alone in dealing with the aftermath of this experience.
GettingItRight, I related to your post and really liked the imagery of your emotional experience. I recently fell for a ” connection” and even though I knew better, I didn’t do better. I saw the signs and the red flags but was hell-bent and determined to pursue the fantasy relationship. Why? It’s a question I’m still asking myself. After all I’ve been in recovery from substances for the past 2 years, work a 12 step program, see a counselor, take my meds….and yet despite all the healing I’ve fell back into this insanity. For me it was all about the connection/sexual chemistry. I know we didn’t have much in common. I’m sober with an advanced degree and a house. He is ten years younger than me, a bartender and lives at his parents house. WTF?! I put him on this pedestal, glorified him and because we kissed well and he was sexy I felt it was meant to be. For a while I even hoped I was pregnant with his baby! Mind you I’ve only know him 6 months because we worked together. We’ve hung out and (other things) only 5 times. At one point I went NC on him but then he upped the ante and took me to a movie. It’s all so pathetic and unhealthy. It’s hard to look in the mirror now. I feel I made an ass of myself trying so much to get him to like me. I told him how much he meant to me, bending at his every whim, trying to catch him, sleeping with him, and all because he gave me some attention and sexual availability. For heavens sake!I sold myself out for such tiny crumbs. It’s really embarrassing now.
Oh Worthy1, beware the years between 35 and 45 …! It’s that damn baby-making machine down there; if it hasn’t produced anything yet, it can drive you a bit crazy.
And yes – young guys, sexy guys, doofuses extraordinaire with nothing except some appealing DNA, suddenly take on a positively mesmerising appeal. I’ve had some positively embarrassing lust-bubbles as a result.
It helps to understand what your body is going through at this time, and let your head do the thinking, not the other bits of you!
Worthy1 …”For heavens sake! I sold myself out for such tiny crumbs. It’s really embarrassing now.”
You’re not the only one.
How sad is THIS part though – in my case I was only seeing the guy for around a month; I ended it because the unavailability was turning me into some ‘crazychick’ that I didn’t even recognize (or respect). By the end, I was at constant war with myself. Self-respecting Dana vs. Fear of Abandonment Dana.
It was the hardest decision I have ever made. And I stuck to NC, mostly because the times he contacted me afterward it’d be at 11:30 on a weeknight, saying he wanted to be friends (Yeah right.) He tried to push the reset button, etc.
Here’s the humbling part – it took *6 months* afterward before I realized why he had triggered such a strong reaction in me. (My low nurturance childhood – and he at first, seemed very nurturing. Until the hot and cold started, which quickly devolved into lukewarm and cold.)
Even more humbling – it’s now nearly a year later, and just a couple days ago I finally realized how deeply and automatically he had triggered that unconscious crap in me. Without his being aware of it at all. And I also realized how my actions would have come across as desperation, because I was acting totally unconsciously: under the power of this infantile “need” that I’d buried since infancy. Basically, I MADE myself into a doormat, he didn’t. Granted, he had his own issues, but I really have to stand up here and admit that we were a toxic, toxic match. (It wouldn’t surprise me if something about me triggered his old traumas as well, but that’s somewhat irrelevant at this point.)
I’m not into blaming anymore. But holy crap, am I embarrassed about how long it took for me to fully realize my part and take responsibility for it. I guess that’s just an indication of how deeply buried that trigger was, because it sure unleashed a side of me I have never seen before. Ugh.
But yeah – I realized my crap wasn’t about him, and his crap wasn’t about me. Not really.
But at least being somewhat aware of it gives me a chance to try to heal it. I wouldn’t have had a hope of that, unless I had gone through that devastating (for me) experience.
* And, he was not my first EUM, but I AM proud of myself for getting out of it as soon as I realized how awful the dynamic was, and sticking to NC.
I guess he was my first EUM with a silver lining (or maybe the past experiences hadn’t been shattering enough to wake me up fully). God, I hope I don’t have any lessons even harder than THIS one in store!
Dana
I get what you are saying, one side fighting for self respect and the other feeling needy. Uug! I’m going through it right now, you can read my post to Lizz and FWD. It’s so hard when you didn’t get the emotional nourishment in childhood…to try and get it now. It seems to come back to us giving it to ourselves and I’m getting pretty good at it, but that needy trigger still bites me in the ass! I’ve been feeling it yesterday and today as I deal with these losses.
I also got an email from my ex after a year and a half. It took so long to get over him and even though I miss him and his daughter, I did not reply. I can’t, I know he’s just trying to hit the reset button, or he will hit it if I reply, even if that’s not his intention.
In fact, I will hit my own reset button with him and I just can’t afford all the time it will take to get over him…again!!! I feel I have a relatively clean slate right now, at least clear of him, and I NEED to keep it that way. There ain’t a good enough cleaner on the market to clear away the crap his interaction leaves behind!!
Be strong, that’s the only power you hold. Once you give in, you start giving it away even if you think you won’t.
Gosh don’t feel bad about this. I have just emerged from what sounds like an identical experience. Because my abandonment issues started at 2 years old when my affectionate daddy withdrew from me, meeting someone who showed me great affection was literally like a drug …he then started playing hard to get and it triggered horrible feelings. One strike and he was out. This taught me so much about myself. I’ve ignored his reset button texts and feel so proud of me!
Bravo! One strike wonder. I’m casting my proxy vote of proud for you too.
Thank you! And big thanks to Natalie and BR! I was able to get out fast because of what I have read here…and by listening to my body that picked up on the insincerity … Stress blisters on my wrist!
Dana, Whatever, and Justdiscovering,
With the help of BR and the material on psychology, I too have revealed in the last few years that my issues in the relationships (romantic or friends) are caused from being malnourished in my childhood. My father was absent and suffered from alcoholism. My mother was emotionally unavailable and then became an alcoholic as well after the father had left for good (he was on and off in our lives during the first decade of my life). She took care of my physical needs but she just was not there. I never got any affirmations. I think I grew up never knowing who I was and if I was worth anything. Grew up abandoned and rejected because my parents could not provide love, care, and respect.
Luckily, I am not angry or blaming them or any of that. I pray for them and love them and cry for them I feel so much pain that they are so broken. I have forgiven them. They are weak human beings as we are all and made their shares of their mistakes.Nothing I can say against them. What I am saying is that I see where my problems are coming from. Last year, as I was recovering from the epiphany relationship, and still am, I see exactly how and what wrong I did in all of my personal relationships. I too never experienced intimacy with anyone. I thought I did with the Long Distance guy. But it was long distance and he never followed through. I had glimpses of intimacy with some relationships but it never developed either because the guy would pull away and blow cold or when the guy was good and close ( my ex-husband) I was too immature and young and sabotaged it all and destroyed the marriage… Now it is all clear to me.
I think intimacy feels like this… When you are with the person, with that significant other you are developing a relationship with, you feel that you are so comfortable in your own skin. You can say whatever you want, do whatever you like. In other words, intimacy is when you are living your life fully with the other person present in it. There are no reservations, no playing, no games. You are just real and with him too. You feel comfortable and loved. And he should feel the same way. But important thing I need to add now, after being with BR for a year, is that to experience fully all of that, you do have to know yourself, what you want, who you are and what you want from the other party. Self-knowledge is important to intimacy. And it is both ways. You can’t say, ” I am intimate with him but he is not intimate with me.” It is a mutual work, but it’s natural as well. It takes work but not that much work. Things do fall into place when everything is right. I believe in it still.
Sofia,
That’s all fine when you can be in skin and be who you are, and the other can do the same. The problem is when you and the other have unresloved issues that show up in dysfunctional behaviours. The example I gave of my friend, she had a dad who would leave her home if she wasn’t ready on time to go to a party or an event she would have liked to go to. She was punished this way. Today she is making everyone around her pay for it, by constantly showing up late. When I called her on it, she gets defensive. She must be aware of this but her need to rebel is stronger than her need for correction. I, too have had bad behaviors with men in past in being the harsh messenger instead of just leaving them (my parents treated me this way). Even when you are aware (my friend is a therapist), it’s hard work and it takes more than just awareness, it takes actions toward correction.
I am now looking at my friendship and wondering, why do I seem to come to this place where I must withdraw. Same thing happens with relationships.
We all need friends and most of us want relationships. It might be better to have many friends instead of putting too many eggs in one basket with a so called best friend with bad behaviors.
This isn’t the first time this has happened to me with friends, so I need to look at why I am recreating this scenario where eventually things must fizzle out.
It seems like I am playing out this super independent card, where I don’t want to need anyone (of course I know I do), probably because I couldn’t count on my parents to be there for me emotionally. This is not healthy.
I used to be quite needy with my girlfriends in the past (making up for not being nurtured as a child) and then when I realized it, I would start withdrawing (took about 5 years or so to realize it) usually due to contradicting values. Being needy is obviously something I do not want to feel, but I still need support.
I am so much better at not being needy today and relying on myself, however, I still love to have those 2 hour long conversations with friends who are up for that. I know my time would be better spent in meditating, so now I have that extra time.
whatever, what a wonderful post.
I am going through the same issue right now. We must be in the same place.
I too have noticed that I am in a position now where i am withdrawing from my friendships. Not abandoning or disappearing. But becoming distant. First of all, last year, with all the processing and thinking and the spiritual growth as well, most importantly, I realize now that we can’t expect a human being, a friend or a significant other or a sibling or a parent, to be there for us the way we expect them to be there for us. They can’t give us what we want. They can’t fulfill our needs. We have certain needs. They can’t give it to us. Especially if we were abandoned/rejected in our childhoods, all our adult lives we keep chasing people and filling the void in our souls with friendships and romantic relationships. The thing is the void can’t be filled with people. I won’t go on theological discussions here. I don’t know if you believe, but I will tell one thing is that I now finally understand that only God can fill the permanently existing void in human souls here on earth until we live in this life. There is absolutely nothing else. But I won’t go on on this subject. I just wanted to express what I found for myself last year.
So yes, I started distancing myself and withdrawing like you have. What else I noticed is that when people get older and have more responsibilities: families, kids, aging parents, they lack physical and emotional abilities to pick up a phone and call and chat good 2-3+ hours like they used to back then. Even when people don’t have lots of family responsibilities they might be coming to a point where they have no emotional strength to talk about life anymore. Surely enough they will be there for you if you are really close and you need help, but what I have found not a long time ago is that people, as they age, they become very engaged in themselves. Self-love I guess too and self-absorption. They just can’t engage the same way they used to years ago.
The important thing to recognize that it’s not something we cause or our fault or anyone’s fault. People evolve, mature, grow, grow out, fold, unfold, whatever they do, but they don’t have the space and time to be with us anymore. They just move on.
I have learned last year and am still learning that I will never put any pressure on myself or anyone anymore to expect from a person to meet my needs for friendship/romantic relationship/closeness. In the sense, that of course I believe in close intimate relationships, friendship or romantic, but I will never expect anyone to fill all of my needs. Like I mention in the beginning of my post, these needs are met by another source and by me as well. People can’t do it for us. That’s the conclusion I have finally come to. And it is freeing and relieving. And makes it easier too for me and my relationships with other people.
whatever,
It is very true what you are saying. One thing is to be yourself, another is recognize your problems and be WILLING to work on them. If both parties are aware of their issues and willing to work on them it’s great. I know my weaknesses and especially now, being self-aware I know where my problems are and am working on them.
In a relationship, friendship or romantic, yes, you can be true yourself and in your skin but if something is bothering your friend or a significant other they tell you and you should work on the issues. Well, even before they tell you of course, you should recognize and work on the issues. I think it is the balance of feeling comfortable with each other yet recognizing there is a work to be done instead of denying or running away from it.
Your friend is a therapist? Quite interesting. I have a friend with a psychology degree and you would think she should know better but her motto is to shove all the feelings under the rug and move on without processing, grief or anything. Just shut everything down and keep pressing forward.
I think another great sign you have intimacy in any kind of relationship is where you can admit to the other party that yes, you are screwed up, you apologize and try to work on your issues, and the other party understands and helps you and works with you on your issues. Or at the very least just stands by you and doesn’t abandon you because you are struggling. That’s another sign of intimacy. Being there for you.
Sofia,
Thanks for your share. I never thought of the not having enough emotional energy to talk as one gets older. I have more emotional energy to talk as I get older.
I agree about going to source energy for fulfillment. I have been doing that and really focusing on my spiritual growth as well. This is why I rely less on friends and more on doing inner work.
My friend finally called me, took a fricken week, so I guess I was stressing out about being abandoned when I really wasn’t, but I was sure ready to abandon her. I’m finding it interesting how my abandonment issues are playing out now and this friendship has triggered them quite a bit in the last year.
whatever,
When I said no emotional energy to talk . . . I rather meant that I don’t expect anyone anymore to reciprocate the same way I expected years ago or recently. So “no emotional energy” meaning is that I don’t invest anymore. I will share things on some level, listen, help, be there, and ok, we part. And imagine, that’s me, who used to be an open book and an emotional absorbent pad so to speak for everyone for years. I just realize now that people become more distant as they age, or seems so. Even the closest friends become distant. But I don’t take it personally anymore (that’s another definition of not having emotional energy – just don’t try so hard anymore and take rejection or rather “rejection” personally). I think this last year I have finally learned to not validate myself through anyone anymore. And not to expend any energy trying to being liked or be validated or win somebody’s attention. I am just done. Friendship or other type of relationship I might hold in the future. I am finding peace within myself and don’t need those 2-3 hours conversations anymore. Do I miss them? Yes, I do sometimes. And I do still have these girlfriends as my friends. It’s just we have changed. Or maybe I have changed in the last year and I don’t pressure/nag/expect anything from them anymore. But one thing I know for sure that these people I know will always be there for me if I need their help and I will be there for them. It’s just I finally realized there is no more investment like used to be. Like I realized you can’t and should not invest into anyone. Because that means expecting something in return. And people can’t fill your void. Yes, you can care for them and be a great friend to them, but the thing is that you can’t expect them to do things for you you would like to fill something missing inside you… I am not saying this to you. Just thinking aloud. And that has stopped for me recently. I used to be a very attention seeking, validation looking person. From every kind of relationship. Screaming in my communication and relation to others, “Please validate me , am I doing this right, was I ok doing that?” I was a walking case of seeking validation personality. Wanting some proof that someone needs and values me.
Now I just don’t care. Because I have learned to provide all of what I had been missing myself.
Yet doesn’t mean I don’t have close friendship anymore. It’s a fine balance. Still learning.
Oh and I wanted to add that I had had abandonment issues playing out in my entire life: parental, friendship, relationships. Last year I learned a lot.Still learning. I believe once we can handle our abandonment issues and how we see ourselves in this life, we will manage every kind of relationship, including the one to ourselves, most importantly.
OMG. This was right on. After my divorce. I struggled to find my spot in this world. Add a cancer diagnosis springle some Facebook postings, and a knight in shining armor shows up at my door. There are too many reasons why this wasn’t a good thing but I fell for it …he smelled good, looked good, etc…. I always follow your blog but this one gave me the courage to stop “this” insanity. Thank you
Mary, your journey sounds like mine. Life threatened, un-funded, due to controversial research, went west, marriage unwillingly broken up, breast cancer, poverty, was stalked, moved, bad rship with redneck local, then the at work AC who turned his another rship. All the while also, until last July, supporting my chronically ill dad. Most of this crap journey also included not being able to speak my truth, share my strong enviro values, my past which included escaping an abusive family, raising a brother as my own child. Then here comes a single, very hot guy, whose intelligent, whom I could talk to for hours about Ed Abbey, all the protests I’ve been in, Native rights, etc. That and his actions, by most standards demonstrated he was into me. Yep, and he looked and smelled good too in a place where, sadly, the rest of the older male population does not. I was ripe for the hurting, as you were. This was in the days before BR, had I known about this blog back in ’09, I’d have saved myself a world of hurt and also now the harsh reality of having to see this dude at work, see his latest at the grocery, at meetings. A former friend who now glares at me as though I am evil personified. Since then, I got on line, tried hard to force myself to accept men I had zero attraction for, got rid of a wounded bird but not quite soon enough, seriously wonder if I’ll ever be able to connect with a healthy, like minded guy again, am teaching myself woodworking and exist in a weird limbo where I am too young to retire, too old for another tenure-track position, have a big, really cool, but unsellable home, do my job well but am emotionally absent, work hard, train hard, and am exhausted. Like I assume you must feel, after getting through divorce, beating cancer, you feel almost as though you deserve some joy in life but it doesn’t work that way. I think its really hard, Mary, for women who’ve been through a lot, done a lot in life, to truly find someone who respects their truth, so many simply watch life on TV and that’s it. We are sooo used to having to hide who we are, to get the job, be accepted in our communities, in my case, to avoid being under threat, that we gravitate to the few who will hear our truth and accept who we are, sometimes with disastrous results. You took a good first step in finding BR and walking away from insanity. Didn’t mean to rant on so, but welcome to our lil community.
Noquay, have you ever gotten to a point where you accept you might be single for the rest of your life?
I have thought about it frequently about myself. I think it might be a good idea to accept that.
For one, no one will fulfill our needs to the extent we want them to be fulfilled. No human being.
Secondly, even those people who are coupled, they are struggling too one way or another.
Thirdly, as we age our pool is thinning indeed.
Given your circumstances (the rural isolated area where you live) it is harder to meet someone who matches your values.
I am just thinking out loud rather than stating firmly anything. But I am getting closer to accepting that I might be single and that’s fine.
I wouldn’t know intimacy if it walked up to me and punched me in the face!!
LOL!
I have a great connection with somebody. We have had times of great intimacy. We’ve known each other for about 7 years and it’s only been in the last couple that it’s turned sexual on an off an on basis.
I realise that we both have issues surrounding true intimacy.
I’ve had bad relationships, so has he. I had a tough childhood so did he. We both are trying to do the work it takes to become intimate with ourselves and I’ve learnt a lot through our “connection” about myself.
He’s literally like a mirror to my issues.
Do any of you think it’s possible for a connection like this to be healing? -I feel it’s been healing for me.
I just don’t know if it will eventually become a relationship.
He runs when I want to get closer, I run when he wants to get closer.
only now I’m finding it easier to stay where we are.
There have been a few times where I’ve told him I want more but then with my actions have shown that actually I was not ready for more.
I think I might actually be ready for more real intimacy with him or someone else who is right for me and I’ve begun to show that with my actions.
It’s been very hard though. Changing habits of a life time.
I feel my fear of intimacy has also been about a fear of losing control. Keeping things casual meant I knew what to expect. Now I want more I’m a bit at sea. Now im learning how to anchor myself
I think as long as you are both trying, it could work. But if one is pulling the other along, then no.
Natalie, you have done it again. This is a brilliant post! Very eloquently written and offers terrific insight to relationship dynamics. You hit the nail on the head! And like another poster wrote, I have never been in a truly intimate relationship. Every guy I’ve been with, always had some core value missing. We had things in common, but not our core values. Great article. I will print it out and refer to it often.
You always know that you’re experiencing truly intimate relationships when you feel nourished by the relationship not malnourished or riding rollercoaster.
That line slapped me in my face. Can’t think of anything else to say right now.
Thanks Nat ….
I did email OM , and it was a final goodbye. I know what youre all thinking, but it really was a final email, i cudnt bear that sometihng that was so beautiful for a period of time, ended with bitter words that I still cant make sense of ….in essence, I didnt have the guts to leave my marriage and after the first couple of months of waiting around, OM of course had to move on with his life. It was selfish of me to want him to keep hanging around while I dragged out years to have everything perfect before actually doing something. Like I wanted OM down on one knee while husband ‘gave me away’ .. I had a chance and i didnt take it. and its the exact same reasons Kabbie said – not wantin to hurt husband after 13 years , hes family like a sibling u outgrow but cant imagine cutting off completely ….I didnt think I stood a chance with OM , deep down I wanted to want better for him than me ….anyway, I said in my final email today not for him to reply, either angrily or otherwise ….the goodbye was kinda like Kabbies poem ..like a leaf falling gently to the ground, no happiness or sadness …it was what it was and its in the past now ….
I feel drained, and I know healing starts all over again now. But i feel more at a genuine plaece than I have been in in a long time …Im here to confirm what Nat says , dont try to stay friends with someone whom u badly wanted more with. let go so the healing can begin. no need to kill the affection but let go and start focussing on u.
I worked from home today …going to treat myself kindly, i notice that in my mind I talk to myself in a way that i never would to anyone else, i call myself a fool and think I deserve nothing good. 18 months of OM – marriage – connundrum has left me feeling like a worthless human being ….and god knows when the self esteem issues really started , how far back …I had no boundaries the first few years of our marriage and the marriage has a lot of work to do to fix, but like Kabbie said in my heart I know I wont leave him …hes the father of my child, the two of them love each other, i cant seperate my son from his dad even if its just a few days a week , how many is that in all his growing years … I grew up in a happy household where i took for granted that we came first with our parents, that my dad would come home from work everyday providing for us and that my mother would hand me a snack and hot drink when I came running in from school …im rambling here but u get the gist, I hope you all dont think it was too bad a setback that I needed to send that goodbye email, maybe he deleted without reading, who knows, since I officially turned stalker , but if he did read it , he knows it was to say goodbye and pay my respects to what once what, I thanked him in the email for those few months when he made the whole world seem beautiful just by turning upto work everyday and smiling at me …Im not going to beat myself , it happened.
Im on the right path now …we do indeed lose ourselves when try bending any of society’s laws with OMs //MMs , the rules are there for a reason ..mostly to protect women cos we stay in love for a while dont once we have fallen ….
will be here as often as I can to report on my progress and cheer u all on ….I caught myself hoping recently that we would see at least one EU -turned- success story on here, where the poster proved to be the exception to the rule as in ‘ he left his wife for me and we are so happy together now’ kind of story ….I dont mean to sound wrong here when I say this, but I found the movie ‘the theory of everything’ very inspirational recently when Stephen H says ‘ where there is life, there is hope’ ..this is wisdom to all of us battling self esteem and semi depression issues , altho the crux knowing to hope for the right thing. I hope husband and I find quiet contentment in the years to come, I dont want romantic passion between us but who knows maybe some day , never say never . he knew abt OM at the time, so nothing to come clean about anew, I dont have a big secret that Im hiding. I hope OM finds happiness in his life and I hope my son when he grows up finds true love more easily in his life.
It is so painful to look back at past relationships – or in my case, rather feeble attemps at them – when I’ve finally opened my eyes to the reality and admitted the truth. I’ve had ridiculous ideas about what my partner should be like, the whole ‘connection’ thing being most important. I’m not saying there should be no attraction, but when feeling this inexplained mystical sense of belonging together, I’ve just jumped the chance without thinking twice, abandoning all reason. After all, it happened so rarely so surely I should value each opportunity like it was the last chance ever?
Only now I am seeing the pattern of being totally unavailable. Many years ago I was dating a guy and really opened up myself to him, thinking this is it, intimacy, openness and all that jazz, and where did I end up? Absolutely heartbroken. Of course, I never really was honest to him or myself, I just did my very best to sabotage the whole thing and push him away as soon as it started to seem like he would actually care. At that time, I remember thinking that I f*cked up and it was completely my fault. I was right but so wrong about the reason. It was not about me being good enough, it was about me not loving or trusting myself enough for letting him close and truly believing I deserve to be with someone.
How come some people just sail through all of this relationship stuff so easily? I see couples everywhere and just think, how on earth is anyone hooking up and staying together when it feels so darn difficult for me.
Diane
Yep, some 99.9% of the guys we meet are in need of flushing; just how dating is. I am just trolling on two sites to see whether theyre worth spending money on a sub and in my age range (55-75), theres about 1 in 45 that seem both healthy and compatible; many of these state theyre looking for someone closer to their town than I am. What’s great about BR is that we now RECOGNIZE that they’re in need of flushing rather than waste time.
Oh crap, my comment to Diane wound up in a strange place. This to Evvie; yep, many go effortlessly from rship to rship. Many of these are hookups, which isn’t an rship at all. It’s really easy if you have poor standards and live somewhere where there is lots of raw material to hook up with. Though they may look happy, you have no idea of their daily reality.
OMG, I just have to chime in here about never knowing what the reality of other people’s lives/relationships is! So many times I have been astounded at the yawning chasm between perception and reality based on what people tell me. I could never decide whether to laugh or cry when someone would tell me how perfect a couple my husband I just divorced and I are, that I am the epitome of “having it all” and so inspiring, etc., when in fact I wouldn’t wish my marriage on a mortal enemy and I was barely holding it together. Believe me, I did NOT go out of my way to “stage manage” my public image! For whatever it’s worth, it made me feel even more isolated to have no one see the distress flares constantly going off….
Also, I apologise for suddenly dropping out of various conversations a few weeks ago. Post-divorce meltdown has subsided and I am adjusting to the “new normal”, have been busy making steady progress with the massive cleanup and disaster recovery effort while reconnecting with old friends (more about that later!) and exploring new artistic collaborations and such, and it’s also been crazy at the day job recently to boot.
Noquay, you expressed how difficult it is to get through awful life situations when you have no support. I almost feel badly about the abundance of emotional support I have found myself unexpectedly blessed with, and that is why I am making such rapid progress in getting through this. Maybe that is your story to write? How DOES one cope when they do not have access to conventional sources of support (close friends/family, therapists, endless options to pursue and indulge in whatever interests you, etc.)??
Very best to you!
Oh, and another point, this transitioning phase from unavailability to something better is killing me. Like I commented on an earlier post, I’m having mood swings from great to awful. I cannot trust my judgement anymore. One day I feel like I did right with the NC, another day I feel like I am punishing the guy for something that happened many months ago and what he probably does not even remember anymore. I used to be a stable person. Unavailable, totally yes, but at least very consistent with my beliefs and thinking.
Oh Evvie. This really moved me:
How come some people just sail through all of this relationship stuff so easily? I see couples everywhere and just think, how on earth is anyone hooking up and staying together when it feels so darn difficult for me.
I don’t think anyone sails through the relationship stuff easily. I think a lot of people put time and effort into making it LOOK easy to outsiders, and I think a lot of people also put time and effort into making things work, and sometimes they do work.
But statistically, most romantic relationships fail. Of course they do. We don’t all settle for the first person we meet!
For people like me, who are simply Not Going There Right Now, we find it’s the same – our relationships (friends, family, work, acquaintances) require the same time and effort, in different degrees. Some people it’s blissfully easy to be friends with; others are shy, or busy, or negligent, but it’s worth the effort; and some are just plain not worth the effort.
I hear you RE the mood swings. It’s really hard beginning to date again with your new and scary insights into yourself. Have you recently broken off with someone?
Hi Ethelreda, thanks for the encouragement. I know I should not compare myself to others but there are still occasions when it feels too much. I have a couple of friends who have been in a relationship and married for several years. Sure, they have their small arguments but nothing dramatic (or so it seems on the outside). And they met somewhere in a bar, clicked off immediately and have never been separated since. I am really happy for them – but envy my pants off. I bet they never have had to do this kind of inner work I am doing now.
I haven’t broken off recently, had FWB with a jerk at work several months ago and only now am starting to understand what happened. It was not him who caused most of the pain, it was me and my previous experiences with men that resurfaced (you can read the history on the comments from Nat’s previous post). I am finding it hard to adjust to the situation and how to treat the guy. For my own sake, I need NC but it is difficult. The jerk probably doesn’t even know what is going on, he’s just confused because I am no longer the happy-go-lucky person he can go to for moaning about his problems.
There is no way I am going close to dating pool any time soon. Right now, I wouldn’t probably even find the pool if I wanted, ha ha!
Thanks @jam, @Catwestfirld and @lizzp (for your comment yesterday). It is very helpful to know that others have been through similar situations and made it out the other side with their spirits intact. And very helpful to be reminded what an AC this guy is! It’s like the connection and feelings I felt (and thought he did too) blurred over reality (and I’m normally pretty levelheaded!)
That this guy kept coming around after he knew his wife was pregnant, looking for a snog and an ego stroke (under the guise of wanting to be friends) until I had to flip out at him and tell him to stay away (again).. What a loser! I have to keep reminding myself of this until the feelings, the closeness and the memory of his good sides fades away. Thank you for your support and guidance in getting out of this situation.
I’m going to try to stop posting as much here and giving you all a daily updates, but thanks for listening and helping me get out of this (for my sake and his wife’s). I really couldn’t have done it without so much support from you all. Thank you all so much. And thank you Nat!!
Yet another great post. Thank you Natalie for putting all of your heart and passion into this fabulous blog, still the best I’ve ever be read. We are all better off as a result. Cheers from one of your faithful readers!
@rags mom, so glad to hear you are done! You sound at peace with things, which is very good. No sense in ending things in anger. I’m sure he read your email. Good that it’s done now and You can move on to healing. I’ll still see you on here, but am trying to pull myself up a bit in real life too, so hoping to post less about myself and more for others. very happy for you that you’ve gotten out. Now onwards with the process of grief and really healing and working on ourselves, hey? Bigs hugs to you. You deserve to be very happy (keep talking kindly to yourself!! It’s just a bad habit that you need to break, but words affect the way you think. Speak positively about yourself and you will think positively about yourself).
I just wonder if any couples actually experience true intimacy. Seems all are lacking in one way, dysfunctional and plod along to keep the peace.
I’m fed up with guys on dating sites say ‘I’m searching for someone like me’, with the same hobbies and interests. Like that is what a relationship requires to work. Argh! And not to mention that elusive spark! I mean does anyone really feel electricity when they meet someone?!
Cherry,
I’ve wondered this too. I think they are out there, but that there aren’t as many as people seem to claim there are.
This is a valid question for all of us at BR – what are we hoping for and is it even out there? How many successful relationships are there anyway? I think we are saying is that we want our subsequent relationships to be more successful. Our own experiences are of problematic ones. I dont think marriage = intimacy, least of all lifelong intimacy.
I know someone that always picked well. He went from committed relationship to committed relationship and often with very solid women – granted one of these women had a very public meltdown after cheating on him and it led to divorce so perhaps eventually she wasn’t that solid, but they’d been together for 7-8 years at that point. To me that was picking well, they had a long decent run. I guess what I am saying is successful doesnt mean long-term with the same person – it can mean serial monogamy that works for you.
I think we should see BR as the place where we are figuring out how to get serial monogamy to work for us. Yes, most of us are older than our 20s, the pool to choose from is thinning, and we are often reluctant to give up our independence, our space. I still believe that there is real intimacy out there. I think its our job to find that real intimacy and keep it no matter how long it lasts. The time it lasts is an ‘outcome’ which you can’t control in advance, and you can’t control the other person, you can only control what you put in day to day. The problem is we are fixated on outcomes that we think are out there – love, intimacy, marriage – without looking day to day to see what we are putting in and getting out, what we are saying and hearing, how that love is being created every day. We are not living in awareness. The problem is most of us are picking people who dont want that intimacy, and perhaps that shows that we aren’t ready for it either. So we are setting ourselves up for pain. Its important to realize your own contribution to this process.
Intimacy is also from family etc. Real relationships require commitment and compromise. When I think of my intimate family relationships, they are tied up in problems, fights, grudges etc. – this is one reason for my EU, and yet I do love my family, and they love me, we have great times at vacations, we chat often, we share our sadness of life or of losing people we love etc. The aim should be to find someone who likes you enough to put up with the bad times, who might hold a grudge once in a while but still sticks around. My family is always both feet in – we’re crazy and there is much I would change, but we are loyal. At least I need someone like that because that was my family experience – is that ‘true intimacy’? I dont know, but I think it would work for me.
Suki, very well said. I believe that real intimacy is out there too. We settle for less because we get tired of searching and wonder why we feel hollow as a result. The void ends up deeper and wider, we either become more desperate or more withdrawn. I went through both of these stages before I got to where I am now. Single. Content. It took being single for a while to get here. Yes, I desire more for myself, a committed partner, someone to share my life with, etc…but you are so right, the awareness of NOW keeps me enjoying the life I DO have. I no longer focus on the finish line.
Suki,
A quick note: “My family is always both feet in – we’re crazy and there is much I would change, but we are loyal”
Yes, you know what intimacy is. Loyalty is an important key word. Loyalty comes from the heart. It is the bond of connection and responsibility for one another. Very important chain in building the intimacy. “Both feet in” is crucial too. How many of us could say that our ex EUs, ACs, or other category guys were both feet in? If one foot is out of the door, there could be no intimacy building.
You all won’t like this, but ACMM was vehement about how loyal he is to his wife. Loyal and “sexually faithful” were not the same thing in his book. I think there is some truth in that.
Elgie, I am with ya! Ex (happily girlfriended) EUM also told me the same thing after I broke it off. It was amongst other crazy things his mouth was spitting so I don’t know how disconnected he was from his own reality really. But the point is, that yes, people who cheat often say this “I am loyal to my partner”. He was jerking me off for two years and then in his mind I somehow was the crazy, needy bitch but he was a “loyal partner” in an “intimate relationship” with his gf. “Something you’d never understand”. One of the comments on this thread from a woman who cheated on her husband also is a testament to this. People (regardless of gender) think they can still be “loyal” and “intimate” with their partner while they know they were engaged in a sexual and emotional affair and their partner thinking they are exclusive. So, I don’t rely on “loyal” too much either. Their loyalty is only to themselves.
My point is that you can’t ask ALL of the questions of this kind of people if you don’t operate on the same logic (and I don’t). I always felt some impeding doom when I was with EUM (“have I asked him about xx? and what about x?”) as he’d never volunteer information himself. So I think it’s not so much about “loyalty” or whatever label as it is about their INTEGRITY and our WATCHING THEIR ACTIONS and making judgements from there. In the end, how many questions can you ask a grown up human being to ensure they are not a (self) lying piece of dust?
– Do you believe in loyalty?
– Yes. It is foundational to me and my relationships.
– But, pardon me for being so blunt, do you also believe in putting your genitalia into other females?
– Yes, I enjoy this very much.
– But haven’t you just said loyalty is foundational to your relationships?
I mean, c’mon, this is a conversation that.happened.never. Some people just don’t see any problem with those paradoxical statements and there’s no way in hell you can foresee how they’ll screw you up with their screwed up logic. Only actions, actions, actions. Thanks NML for teaching us this!
Why, Brilliant. So on the mark. The absurd conversation that will never happen – haha – just hilarious.
“– Do you believe in loyalty?
– Yes. It is foundational to me and my relationships.
– But, pardon me for being so blunt, do you also believe in putting your genitalia into other females?
– Yes, I enjoy this very much.”
Thanks, am still laughing. “But pardon me for being so blunt….”!! I just love your humour. Fantastic.
Yes, it’s all about the actions – and that goes for us as well as the other.
Spoken from experience couple do have true imtimacy, but it doesn’t come from common hobbies and interest, but it comes from sharing the same core values. My husband hunts, fishes and I like to shop and to arts & crafts, but we get along very well. But its because we both share the same core values. Having a connection is great, but if you don’t have the same value system its is not going to work. I believe this was one of the main reasons why me and the EUM did not work because despite the chemistry, our belief system was so different.
I have to wonder if it isn’t the “electricity” that’s part of the problem.
The sight of someone can activate all those hidden parts of you. But whether that’s a good thing or not, I don’t know.
It seems like too many of us are triggered by people who touch those hurty parts of us. The psyche wants to heal itself but it chooses the wrong medicine and we wonder why the pain persists.
M – May be that it’s the right medicine so we can bring our inner hurt to the surface so we can heal it.
Very rarely. It’s happened twice in my life. Once with the ex-EUM. and once with a guy I just went out with last week. Oh and there was some guy I used to work with but he had a gf and nothing happened there. But yeah, it was just like some kind of electrical thing happens, your body just starts vibrating. It’s very strange and now I know it doesn’t mean much. I’ve actually read it is probably your body’s way of telling you your DNA matches up with that person’s DNA and will produce healthy children. That’s what science seems to think “chemistry” is. Which I don’t care about since I’m not having any, and besides if I were, it should take a lot more than matching DNA strands to have a baby with someone.
Oh hello Natalie and Baggage Reclaim friends. It has been a while since I’ve been here. It’s like returning to family!
Last time I was here was about 4 years ago, and I was recovering from being used by a EU man. This site saved my sanity and helped me in my recovery to really start working on myself. I actually did not date for years after that, and I must say I enjoyed my time being single and loving myself. Finally I tried dating someone at the end of last year, and – lo and behold – I was faced with a very similar situation again.
So I was with him for about three months. He pursued me with such enthusiasm at first that I was truly feeling scared. I knew it was me being scared to be vulnerable, but I consciously acknowledged that and would always step forward to be vulnerable and show up to the best of my ability. He and I were both going through a transition phase in our lives, so because of everything going on we only saw each other every few weeks but we kept in touch frequently throughout the week. He was very attentive, and at first he was very open and honest about all aspects of his life, without even me asking. I am naturally more private person, so I didn’t share with him as much as he did with me. We were just getting to know each other, so I felt like I needed more face-to-face meetups before really opening up. I noticed though that when we did meet up he wasn’t very affectionate or close. I took this as him being respectful, but now I’m not sure.
Anyway, to make a long story short, the last time we saw each other I really wanted to get closer to him so I tried holding his hand. For me that was a big vulnerable move! I’m not sure what he made of it though. I just felt in my gut that though he told me so much about himself, his emotions were just locked away. That night he gave me a gift when he dropped me off (an early christmas gift), and said how we should meet again during the holidays. Well, the holidays came, and he got sick. When I contacted him to see how he was, he answered the first time, but then he disappeared. Two weeks after his last communication with me, I sent him a message stating that I felt disrespected by his disappearance, and that because of it I wasn’t interested anymore either. I did this out of respect for myself, and I just didn’t want him seeing me as an option like the last EU did. A week later he texted “sorry” but that’s it.
I’m sad to say, but this whole thing sent me back to 4 years ago, when I felt so confused by what happened. I thought I’d know better, and in a way I do, but I still feel hurt. My self esteem is better than it was then, but I still feel unsure about what happened. Did I overreact to his disappearance? Was he actually EU? Or am I the EU one here? I feel like I tried my best to be open emotionally, as scary as it was for me after all these years, and so having someone disappear like that just when I start opening up was very hurtful.
Sorry about the long post. I am really glad this site exists to provide the support right now.
teatime, i think you did a very brave thing. you liked someone, you hung out, you even made a physical move. thats good – you put yourself out there. unfortunately he isn’t the right guy for you, he isn’t interested… i think you shouldn’t beat yourself up over it. its a good learning. i think a three month meeting-up friend-type-thing [what was it anyway? hard to say] is a perfect time to stop engaging if it isn’t going forward. you wanted more, he didn’t. thats fine. doesnt reflect on you as a person…
I think things that work need mutual interest, and it needs to be strong. We all have so much inertia that if both partners dont feel a strong enough interest to at least have fun and figure it out, then theres nothing. Either way, he didn’t use you for sex, so thats a good thing. He wasn’t sure what he wanted and so in some ways he respected you by not fast forwarding etc. He does sound EU. You might also be EU since you were ‘scared’ of his pursuit but didn’t stop him (i assume) and then you saw your physical pass as a sign of being vulnerable (I dont see holding hands as a sign of vulnerability – I think its a sign of physical interest, and in most dating situations should lead to something physical however tame).
You say he pursued you but he didn’t make any physical moves. That tells me this wasn’t really dating. I have no idea what he was up to. Disengage emotionally [I’m not sure how, but i dont think there was a there there. Bullet dodged!].
Hm, I have to disagree with if nothing physical happened, then it’s not dating. But maybe that’s me. Especially since they didn’t see each other very often, they were getting to know each other emotionally before physically. I see nothing wrong w that. But three months does sound like the perfect amount of time to try it and see how it goes. He probably got scared of the greater expectations and went underground. Maybe he’s closeted homosexual. Who knows. You tried and it didn’t work but you didn’t put years into it. Be proud! You learned so much you got out early.
Yes, we spoke about how given our living arrangements currently we’d hold off on being intimate until after getting to know each other, but it was still strange that he never really tried to touch me or kiss me more than a quick peck. That’s why I tried the hand holding. Either way though, I am feeling better about the whole thing since I last posted here. The more time passes the more I see him as EU and just really not wanting anything serious right now. It would have been nice if he just told me rather than disappearing, but then again that just shows another lack of emotional maturity on his part. I deserve much better! I will give myself a pat on the back for my effort here and move on.
Dear TeaTime, you didn’t overreacted.
Why do we blame ourselves when somebody is treating us without care, respect and love?
Surprised – I think that is part of the reason I felt so terrible after. Part of it was knowing that I shouldn’t even feel any blame for this person who didn’t show me any respect in the end. I do feel a part of that comes from my own personal upbringing and expectations, which I am working on. Ultimately, the more I give myself love, care, trust, and respect, the less likely I will feel bad for leaving these types of men in the dust. The fact I still feel some blame shows I have work to do still.
TeaTime,
Nothing EU about you.
The guy disappeared on Christmas. Texted something “sorry” during the holidays. Unavailable. Flush. Nothing you did wrong.
I am sorry about being single for years, learning from BR, and still meeting unavailables.
You are as you are doing fine. It’s just tough out there.
I have a guy at work whom I have known for over 2 years now. I really like him as a person. He is older than me though. 19 years older. I think that’s too much age difference. The only reason I haven’t progressed with him. I am 37. Probably should stay that away. Far away.
I feel opposite of malnourished with him. It is like every conversation and interaction I get with him it is the nourishment. He seems to be so into me and my life. I like him. But I seriously doubt the age difference. I guess Flush.
Pressing forward.
Sofia, DON’T let an age difference stop you, unless the man is married or otherwise unavailable, eg. gay, a Catholic priest, long-time live-in partner, President of the United States and thus very busy, etc.
My best friend married a man 30 years her senior – she was 38, he was 68 (looks about 50). They are very happy indeed; he is an amazing guy and he absolutely cherishes her.
She had a funny upbringing; she was very old-fashioned and very unusual, and as a result she found it really hard to meet men who were right for her. Lots of dodgy relationships and heartbreak ensued.
She finally met this man – he was married at the time – and she became friends with his friends; it was kind of a group social thing. But his wife became unwell and died, and then after a suitable period they started seeing each other, and now here they are.
They’ve been married for around seven years now.
Sofia – Why should age matter? A student worker that worked for me, who is now 27 just got engaged to a man who is 50. I thought it was weird for a long time but after following her on facebook and seeing her updates (yes, I know its facebook), she seems very happy. She was always an old soul and odd so I guess in some ways it makes sense that she bonded with a much older man. I truly believe she is happy. If the guy was 19 years younger I would be more hesistant, but he’s older…he may actually know how to treat a lady.
Ethelreda and Lynn,
Thank you for your input.
It’s true. Why does the age difference matter? Seems I am putting unnecessary boundaries. I will think more about what you said. He is a person with whom I feel really comfortable and it’s not even chemistry. It is not a spark. It’s something beyond. I feel comfortable being me and in my skin around him. I haven’t felt like this in quite a while. I did with my ex-husband but it took years to feel that way and back then I guess I didn’t like the intimacy feeling because it was weird to me so I just sabotaged it all. Now, the whole concept of intimacy is entirely different. I am not deleting the possibility of dating this guy. Just thinking…
Sofia – Thank you for your comment. I am feeling better since posting, and it’s just becoming more clear to me how EU and immature he is for pulling a disappearing act, and during the holidays! How tasteless.
For your situation, I would just say to give it a chance. I find age is just a number. There have been many times I’ve made assumptions about someone’s level of maturity based on their age, and boy have I been proven wrong! If we can connect with someone that well where we feel nourishment and support the age won’t matter. I wish you well!
Thank you, TeaTime.
It is also about work. We work very closely together. In the same department. So I am concerned about that as well. I will see . . . I am in the midst of changing a career, so who knows, I might not be there anymore and the pressure of being co-workers will be off. Thank you for the input.
Funny, I think a large age difference – with the man being older – is a positive thing when the woman is under 50 years old. It seems to me that men cherish the “younger” woman. It makes them feel more alive, more young themselves. That is something that an older woman cannot give an older man – that is just the way it is – and I am an older woman, BTW.
I had a 4-month fling with a man who was 23 years older, when I was 33. I have very happy memories and no bad memories of that encounter. When I was 24, I met a 37 year old man who is the best relationship I’ve ever had. He loved me, I know it. He never did anything to hurt me, or make me feel “less than”. It lasted four years, but MY feet were the one that were not in it wholeheartedly.
I’m not telling older woman that all is lost. It’s been my experience that younger men do find older woman attractive. When men are in their thirties and 40’s, the lack of expectations from an older woman gives them some peace of mind. We’re not looking for saviors, or fatherhood potential – most of us anyway. I don’t know if there can be a long-lasting relationship, but all the men I’ve dealt with recently who keep knocking at my door, including ACMM, have been younger.
I am just looking for mutual. I want him to be as in to me as I am in to him.
Teatime
Just because we do our personal work doesn’t mean others do the same and it’s nothing you did wrong; he wasn’t present, period. This sounds sooooo much like Trauma Man, whom I dumped about 4 months ago. Little/no display of affection, in transition, incapable of intimacy. You saw what you needed to see and acted accordingly. Some 99% of the dudes we try and date will not work out and yep, a lack of emotional presence, inability to commit, is a sad sign of the times. Society indeed needs revamping!!
He’s triggered those feelings. It happens easily, unfortunately and it can leave you worried you’ve made a mistake.
You haven’t. He’s unavailable and you did nothing wrong here.
tea time
I dated a guy for about 6 weeks back in September. I was so anxious at the beginning, like crazy anxious. Of course I thought it was fear, however, I realized that it was my warning system telling me that this guy was not right for me.
I’ve had this warning system before and in both cases, the guy turned out to be a control freak. How it unfolded with the last guy was that he tried to control how I spoke, how I dressed, it was crazy and I was going to have to give up my interests when I moved in with him (Latin dancing being one of them..I could only go with him and he doesn’t even know how to dance)
So, my anxiety was a warning, not a fear of intimacy. Same thing happened with a guy years ago, later I found out that he literately held his girlfriend hostage. So, I take huge anxiety as a warning sign for me. BTW, I’m pretty darn hard to control, but my parents were controlling, you get the pic.
Whatever, that’s a good point I have never thought about. Anxiety! I mean some dating anxiety is ok. But overboard is a sign of something not right. I felt extreme anxiety with the last ex when I started dating him. I felt I was on the edge all the time and never knew what to expect. Although he was predictably polite and followed up, my gut told me something was off. Now I would have listened.
And the example when the gut is calm. (my ex-husband and the guy at work I started paying attention to just recently). No anxiety, no warning messages. You just feel calm and stable. That’s when it is most likely the sign it’s right to discover the person and continue learning about him/her.
Sofia
I even look for the anxiety after a phone call, it comes up and then I flush. Mr LD did not bring up any anxiety for me, which is why I continued. He is frustrating me, but that is different from anxiety. I feel no anxiety with him. Well, actually, I did feel a little when he said he was talking about possibly moving to my city, which I thought might lead to him coming here first. I kind of wanted to go to where he is so I can have a holiday (especially if it won’t go any further, I want to at least get a holiday out of it and maybe a motorcycle ride in Ojai, CA.
Many times I wished I’d listened to my anxiety, it has always been an accurate AC detector. Trouble with me is I started to believe that anxiety was my status quo so I stopped listening to it.
whatever – The more time passes the more I realize how many times my gut was making me feel anxious around him too. The fear I described could very well have been just that – a warning to myself. I do remember questioning myself at times, wondering why I was so hesitant to speak up or really share my full opinion on something we’d be discussing. I naturally take time to open up to people, to build that trust, but this just seemed like I kept hitting a wall.
I think this is another lesson to myself to listen to my gut. I remember with the last EU, I told him on our second date right to his face “there’s something evil about you.” He looked at me and smirked and asked why I’d say such a thing. I said, “I don’t know, there’s just something about you” and we changed subjects and moved along. He turned out to be the biggest assclown I’d ever met, a master player. So often we’re warned early on but perhaps we just assume it’s our own fears speaking. I think we should listen loud and clear!
Dear TeaTime
I feel for you….i really do!!!
I, by my choice decided not to date for a bit while given my body and soul the “wright” time to recover.Didn’t certainly want to Find myself involved with all the dramas….and certainly once again had to face with dissapointments….about me and my whole life,cause that it is what it comes down to at the end….you,me feeling a total failure.Although three years Are gone by without having for once felt the necessity to be in a relationship( working progress) I can tell you that what I have learned it is to have a completely different perspective on what love should be.I used to have an amazing connection with the love of my life…..yeah…..out of this world sex but that didn’t spare me to be treated as a constant option that he didn’t take him long to change;He packed all my stuff faster than a blink of an eye and dumped me without a reasonable explanation……just like that!!!
And sure I was that I knew him all along.Gosh….what ultimately Nat has taught me in all this years of reading BR is to see things in a more objective(use my brain rather than my heart) way than just thinking that all it takes is attraction,connection and super duper sex to MAKE a relationship work and to be happy. I have understood that love is well different than what i have experienced in the past:love start with me,me first
As I said stil working on it,is not an easy ride….
.Don’t bit yourself my dear Teatime cause ultimately all of us are going to have to deal with very similar situations than yours,yes depressive at time and believe me when I say that I am terrified of putting myself out there, but we have now the knowledge to recognise them,and therefore to act faster then before….Good for you to having had the strengh and willing to try,good for you that you have Made yourself clear with this man and your intentions….leave him to be.
PS the EUM LOVE OF MY LIFE has done an appearing act to me recentely…..After 6 years,YES 6, he has called me even though I have chanced all my numbers to Find out how I was(egh?!!!!!although to be fair I was ill for the past 2 years) to then tell me that He’ll always going to be concerned about me…..AH AH WTF couldn’t care less when he left me back then with no place to go!!!!!Geez as Nat say be aware,be very aware, they do have the guts to come back!!!!;)
Jasmin73 – Thank you for your kind words of support. I do feel much better since posting here, and I do see more and more that he is the EU one, not me. Yes, we may be fearful of going back out there and trying, but the fact that we desire that connection and we are going back out there with Natalie’s lessons in mind means that we are emotionally open and not EU. I hope that you also find a deep connection with someone who gives you the love, care, trust, and respect that you deserve. We shouldn’t waste our time on guys who do not want that. It isn’t our job to fix them, and it isn’t fair to us to waste our time thinking about them. I wish you the best in your search!
Teatime,
I think the answer is simple. Loving yourself. Once you truly do you will feel you deserve to be happy and in turn won’t be fearful about what may happen, because regardless you are enough no matter what happens. When you are too fearful to open up its a sign you aren’t ready and still need to work on accepting and loving you so you can be confident to be fully open hearted. Fear is usually the root of fears of rejection. And he was definitely EU big time from what you say. Signs like the long distance, frequency of seeing one another, his holding back if emotions and affections, all are a sure tell sign and definitely his disappearing. You may have chosen him because you deep down subconsciously chose him because he was less of a risk with how much space and distance he had with you. The closer you get the more chance of getting hurt worse and our minds do crazy things in choosing people like this to prevent a greater heartbreak for the what ifs.
EyesWideOpen – Yes, self love is key here. I do feel better now that more time has passed, and I am realizing more and more that he is EU. I don’t think I’m necessarily EU, because though I was feeling fear of opening up I was still trying to be open, but I do recognize that because I attracted him into my life I still have some work to do. I myself am also in a transition phase of my life, and part of that may have to do with my need for my own space at this time. That may have to do with it. I’ll keep open to meeting people and giving myself that chance to be vulnerable and connect, but I will always keep in mind to love myself first. Any sign of disrespect and lack of care, love, and trust and I’m out.
TeaTime, you were not EU. Just careful and taking it slow. You were willing to open up, that’s the key. He was not. Nothing you did wrong.
Hearing these stories make me sad and apprehensive even more. I haven’t dated for a year now and I just can’t imagine doing these things all over again. Going out there, playing games, discovering, all of that. Wish somehow it would all happen organically. By that I mean, for instance you are passionate about some hobby or interest. You do it, meet someone in the group of people and continue seeing the person on that basis at first, become friends and very close, and then maybe something develops. Dating itself seems so . . . difficult. And disappointing. Feel like staying single forever reading the stories like yours or Diane’s or whatever’s.
Dear TeaTime,
please do not doubt your feelings. To me he sounds EU: talking a lot about himself (monologue)= not interested in getting to know you but VERY interested in his stories. Probably overestimated his interest in you and then just disappeared ( being sick is a handy excuse not to make contact) but also doesn’t hold up in this day and age.
All you need to know is, that he was not capable of being interested enough to get to know you which doesn’t make him EU necessarily but it is a no-go in my book anyway. You don’t want to squeeze someone for attention,or closeness- that is desperate. If he doesn’t contact you, then you have your answer, your experience right there. I think you did not like the outcome and that you are sad as you had hoped for something different. It is time to get real and see what was really there: not that much of substance so how can that progress into something meaningful? Not at all.
I think the problem is, that when you have done so much inner “work” on yourself in terms of “self-improvement”, we kind of feel that it is time now that this whole dating-thing needs to work out. Wrong!! that is trying to control the outcome of your experience and it keeps you stuck in your fantasy world. The change happens in real life and over time, with those experiences that are happening and that is better to accept, because then, you really learn about yourself and others.
Acknowledge to yourself what you want- everybody has different needs and for some 2 weeks is long and for some it is short. It only matters what it means to you and a sanity check is helpful regarding context (You did not do anything wrong (handholding), he wasn’t ready for that or maybe that is not into that to begin with…not much emotion there. But again be careful with putting too much emphasis on the physical stuff. It is crystal-clear that when you have met someone for 3 month and To You:
he feels still distant, somewhat indifferent and has lost the initial momentum, he might be EU or very superficial. Either makes for unsatisfying relationship, so be glad you only wasted 3 month instead of years to figure this out!! Thanks to BR!!
If 2 weeks of no contact is the cut-off for you, that is fine but just take the responsibility for it and be okay with it. You don’t need to tell him that or all about him, how you feel disrespected. You don’t need validation because you are parting anyways, because all that he displayed was not very like-able, he did not reciprocate etc. etc. You have all the answers you need. Good luck with the next adventure!
Hugs 🙂
Unfolding – You are so right in many ways. I really shouldn’t doubt myself here, because ultimately I did do my best and if that didn’t work then he wasn’t the right guy for me. With more time passing, I am starting to realize more and more that he was definitely EU given his behaviour and lack of emotional depth. For me, communication is so important, and during one of our dates I told him that up front, so the fact he didn’t respond to my message or phone call just showed how little he respected my needs. I do think the sadness I was feeling was for the hope for what could have been, but I just keep reminding myself of the negatives and just how he ended it and it has helped tremendously for making me feel like I dodged a bullet with someone who is clearly not relationship material. We deserve better than these types of guys.
Hi. This website has brought me quite a bit of enlightenment and wisdom. I am in a horrible situation. I am married to a wonderful guy who genuinely loves me and treats me right. He’s my best friend and I’ve been married to him for over 20 years. We’ve raised two great kids together who are now young adults/in college. We’ve been a great parental team… and friends… but the sex department has been lacking, although we are intimate emotionally, but not physically. Now that the kids are gone, I realize what a void was there. I know at my age it is normal for the sexual relationship to wane, but we literally have had sex maybe five times in the last fifteen years. He’s wanted to have it more, and we went to marriage counseling for a couple of years, but that almost hurt the situation more. Anyway, I can’t keep this going. I need more in a relationship. We are intimate in all ways by physically and sexually… weird, huh? Am I nuts for letting this guy go who is a great guy and who loves me, etc. but I have no romantic feelings for anymore? Help!! He wants me to snap my fingers and magically generate sexual feelings for him… it doesn’t work that way… right? I read about all these asshole guys and realize what a gem my guy is in some ways, but I can’t manufacture romantic feelings for him… I want to remain friends with him and divorce.. but am scared by what I read here… AHHH!! I guess it comes down to what is intimacy? I am intimate with my husband in so many ways… but not sexually anymore, and it’s leaving a void in me that is slowly killing me… yet if I divorce and I lose his friendship, I am scared of that void…
Lola, stop panicking. Your relationship is fine; if you have been married 20 years, then I’d guess you are just going through normal mid-life hormonal changes. Your sex drive can die on its feet.
Have you seen a doctor about getting a little help? You could try HRT, or you could try oestrogen pessaries, which make intercourse much less uncomfortable if that’s what’s causing the problem. (KY Jelly can also be a boon …) Testosterone or progesterone therapy – cream or patches – can revive a woman’s sex drive in mid-life as well.
Some women go crazy for sex at mid-life; others just hate it. And some lose their sex drive after mid-life, and others get it back in spades. There’s no way to predict it; you just have to ride those tides.
You love your husband. He loves you. That’s why you’re still married after all this time. Hang in there. Don’t divorce your guy if he’s a gem. Just go see the doctor and get some blood tests.
Hi Lola,
yes, you are nuts to leave your husband in search of sex. Sex,
is not love. But there is an unlimited supply of men out there who want sex and will accomodate you. And as you age, imagine yourself, say, age 79 do you want to say to your wonderful children I left Dad for some physical urges I had. Or do you want to be holding his hand, comforted, secure and look back saying, well we had a good ride for our lives, lets age together gracefully.
My view is – if the sex were immensely satisfying, you would never tire of it. I never hear women who love shoes say they are tired of shopping for shoes. Why? Because every time they do it, they have fun doing it. They get a charge out of it.
Society is always ready to tell a woman that it is “normal” to not want sex. It is NOT normal. My feeling is that most women stop wanting sex because the sex they’ve been having is not that much fun. Period.
What if you told your spouse that you wanted to have sex, but you wanted it to be all about YOUR pleasure for a night. He is to come to bed and do things to you that drive you crazy with NO expectation of you doing anything to him for his pleasure. Would he be excited by that? If the answer is no, that proves my point that the sex has been mostly enjoyed by HIM and not you. I think men who love pleasing women would be excited by that scenario.
Hi Rags Mom, Leanne, lizzp, welcome to Kabbie, Ethelreda and all you other BR readers,
What a week, am still away in the US having a frantic week, have been skimming BR and catching up but until now no time to post. OMG, what a week I’ve had, I have been ambushed by ex OM with my NC. So had big problem at work, only he could fix it, had an email saying he was onto it and thanking me for asking him to help (????). Next morning get a call from unknown number, pick up and it’s him having a rant about someone not being helpful. Then he says “I wish we could be better friends”, I just say “sorry I can’t” and put phone down very abruptly.
A couple of hours later I get a text “please call when you can”. I thought it was important so called and he said “he understood why I couldnt be friends but please can I promise to be his ally at work.” That we should share stuff and help each other, that he would normally use info someone gave him to his advantage but wouldn’t with me and hoped in wouldnt with me. I told him to own his own sh1t and nor project it onto me. He also told me how he still thinks it’s right he made the choice to leave me. I just said I had to go.
This morning ambushed again by the unknown number and he’s telling me how much he loves me, that he’ll always love me, and that whenever he helps me it comes from him loving me.
I must say that with all this I still feel done, just don’t believe him at all. I’m just very annoyed right now that he’s ended up back in my head,
polluting my thoughts.
Rags mom, hope this is final for you?
Kabbie, welcome.
HI Colly, I think it would be a mistake to start thinking about this from the POV of his sincerity, what his empty words mean in terms of his feelings for you. And this is not about his grief – he’s doing this because he has had a new the opportunity to catch you unawares and, he is affronted that you really mean (through NC) to keep him out of your life. That doesn’t keep well with his need to keep the upper hand, and confirm what he tells himself – that he is the winner here, that you still want him. He’s doing it so that once you’re pulled back in he can tell you it’s over, or go cold because it ‘just can’t be’ because of his ‘controlling wife’ and so it goes on. His real kick is control, even if he doesn’t know it. If he respected you, he would leave you alone. Instead he manipulates the work situ to get you to engage and respond to his emotional manipulations.
I know it’s hard as he has put you on the spot, but give yourself some breathing space then come back to it with questions about what further actions you can take to enforce your boundaries and remain no contact. I want to be frank because there is no shame in acknowledging to your self that you feel a little flattered by his chasing in response to your firmer commitment to NC in the last few weeks. Just acknowledge it and let it go and remember NC is for you, because you are better than being involved with a MM, you are learning to again treat yourself with care and respect and not take on the issues of a poor me, whiny boy-man MM. You already know that for you NC is not a game, on the other hand he is pretty typical in his responses.
Colly, Can you really not arrange it so that someone else deals with him through work? At least until you are able to hang up the phone the moment you hear his voice on the other end of the line, and email him back instead of calling him back. The other thing you might do is to send that email saying you only respond to work matters via email (not text and not phone talk – barring conference calls). Then it’s just hang up, delete, hang up, delete.
Hi lizzp
Yes I totally recognise that he is panicking about lack of control and also in keeping a link into me in whatever capacity helps him avoid dealing with his real issues at home. This is a typical pattern with him, he blows hot until he thinks he’s got me and then will blow cold, be distant and silent for fear he has lost control himself and because he thinks he’s won me again. Big difference is that this time he has not won me over at all, I’m just annoyed with him because of his game playing. I don’t feel flattered by his attention, it just grates, though I’ll be honest and say I’m prepared to use him a bit to get what I need done at work.
I should be able to step back from him at work again after today, then my team will be the contact point. I very much doubt he’ll be ambushing me today, he’ll be quiet to see if I’ll chase, really it’s all so tedious!
It’s sad that things have ended up like this, I really don’t believe he recognises what he is doing, he really seems to believe the words coming out of his mouth. I feel a bit sad for him that he believes he has really grown and learned about himself from his experience with me (he says its the greatest gift I gave him), yet his behaviour suggests he hasn’t really embedded that in action. He’s not inherently bad, he’s just an EU AC like me.
Anyway, I’m not swayed with my NC and I still feel very much done.
Colly, so glad to read that you are resolved to stepping back from him at work and have retained that sense of being done with him. The understanding that you’re done – from my own experience – has to be nurtured and maintained and built on over time and sometimes when we allow ourselves to break NC by accepting contact even if that accepting is simply listening to the other person offload, it is not until somewhat later that it catches up with us, that we have to again wrench ourselves back to ourselves and our life without his influence (in our head space/thoughts). I think I was a little worried for you because you didn’t express anger that he had ambushed and busted your boundaries, I am an ex florence myself, and the vulnerabilities can be very subtle in these situations. The Florence thing kicks in on auto. But you know his patterns so you can prepare for when he will inevitably put them into action next time. I think he wants, as an aim in itself, to break the new resolve he recognises in you. As far as I can see from your comments this is the first time he’s encountered this level of resolve in you. Nurturing and protecting your resolve could be an ongoing and very practical project at this point.
“I told him to own his own sh1t and nor project it onto me.” Well, what am I saying – if that’s not expressing anger (to him) I don’t know what is. You can harness that anger to help you keep him out.
Lizzp,
I totally understand where you’re coming from and you have well described the feelings I’m having. I am angry with him because he’s busted my boundaries. He had recognised my resolve and even listed to me instances where I had failed to engage with him. My anger is about knowing his game plan, it’s rooted in his own need to keep some control and to think I could be an option in case he ever grew a pair – he won’t. Listening to his offloading has affected me, he’s got inside my head again and even though I’m done and know why im done I do feel myself start to get those irritating glimmers of hope that he’s pursuing me because he loves me. He’s not, it’s not love, it’s control and I don’t know what.
The Florence thing did kick in automatically, it was hard not to follow up my “own your own…” comment with some advice about where that might come from and how he could help himself. I didn’t do this, I have a lot of anger about him and me allowing me to be some armchair psychologist in the last three months we were together. It was wonderful how I fixed him up some so he could go forward and tackle his marriage issues with a view to staying rather than freeing himself to be with me – not! Grrrr starting to seethe now thinking about him telling me again this week that I gave him the greatest gift of learning about himself.
I’m not great at holding onto anger, it was a forbidden thing for me growing up, but I recognise how useful it is. I’m hoping that getting home, getting out of a different time zone to him (more te time to access me see) and getting rid of the jet lag will level set me again. I still know done, just like you say you do have to keep working at it.
Thanks for your aupport
Timely article as always. Thank you. I’m confused at the moment as for the first time in my life I am in what feels like a straightforward dating relationship. The guy is great, we’re taking things slow but it feels like it could be something that could last. But it’s also the first relationship I’ve been in in a long time where I havnt experienced anxiety, and as much as I hate it I think I got so used to being duped by that anxiety that it feels like that ‘electric spark’ is missing.
Yoyo,
At a certain age and experience level ( I think I am coming to this point), we have to recognize that sparks and butterflies should not carry a significant weight as the definitions of someone being the right person for us. Yes, there should be an interest and attraction, no doubt. But dead drop to the ground chemistry and sexual attraction? I actually would pass this one if I were to date someone. I would feel wary and comprehensive if someone were so attractive that I am feeling back my “normal back then again” and about to jump into bed with him. I will take all the comfortable feelings of no anxiety, interest in each other, and great time, over some sparks and chemistry. We know very well where the latter lead to . Nowhere.
Thanks. Yes I totally agree, and I don’t want any anxiety at all, I’m just conscious it feels like there’s something missing when I don’t have the anxiety because I’m so used to it. Anyway guess what? He told me yesterday he is divorced, which was over 2 months too late. Hello anxiety! 🙂
For how long has he been divorced?
@Colly, I don’t think it sounds sincere. It sounds like he is just feeling the crazy initial stages of grief over losing you. Good on you for staying strong. If he really meant it, he’d be backing it up with action and telling you as much. While there may be some truth to his strong feelings, it’s kit enough for you and for you to re-engage. Don’t! Carry on NC my dear!! You can do it!!!
Thanks Leanne, yes see my reply to lizzp above, he is responding to losing control. He doesn’t want to grieve losing me or his perceived control over me. He wants to believe we have a special bond forever that means he can come back and get his ego stroked.
Yesterday mornings call from him was so full of contradictions, in one breath he’s saying I quote “I don’t care if you hate my guts I will always always love you”, then a minute later I get “I’m sorry I called you but if you suggest ever to me that I don’t love you then I feel a compulsion to call you and tell you I do love you.” Say what? Crazy stuff, I feel for him that he’s not as healed as he thinks he is.
Anyway, looking forward to getting home tomorrow
@colly, This is so similar to the pattern with my MM the last few months.. it is helpful to realize that it may have been the control that he was after more than anything (and definitely more than love towards me that kept him coming back).
Ever since I first tried to break things off, it was push and pull and push and pull. Blowing so hot when I tried to break things off again and again that I came back, but then coldness and “I love my wife’s” when I re-engaged. It was crazy-making! I thought at first that his blowing hot all meant so much more, but really it didn’t. Maybe there are some real feelings there, but I think from reading this that these men just like the control and ego-stroke of it all primarily. How screwed up! Like I said to him last week in our final texts, I wouldn’t do that to someone I hate. That made him back off hard 🙂
Makes me sad, but recognizing it now for what it was helps me to stay the NC course. We haven’t talked this week at all (which is great!) But it took me actually freaking out and yelling (via text): leave me alone. don’t come by my office. don’t text me. don’t email me. i need to get on with my life and if you care about me at all.. let me do it!! to really get him to leave me alone.
I feel bad because he probably thinks I’m a bit crazy. And I think for his own ego, he is probably down in his office trying to rationalize how this happened so that he still comes across (to himself) as the winner here. But no one “wins” in these situations.
Anyways, that’s my vent today. Staying the NC course too and feeling better bit by bit (though sad & anxious over the loss of the relationship.. grief is a hard process even when you know it’s for the best, hey?)
Glad to hear that you are still NC.. nice work!
Leanne,
Do you think you had a relationship with him:
“though sad & anxious over the loss of the relationship..”
It is part of the healing process. Later on you will realize that what you had was in your head most of the time. There was no relationship.
Yay, Leanne! Staying NC will give you time to heal, and to spend time with yourself in ways that will strengthen you. Yes, the feelings will come and go, and the desire to reconnect; all part of the grieving process. Hey, if he thinks you’re a bit crazy, that’s nothing to feel bad about! That works 100% in your favor, as he may stay away and thus help you remain NC. I do pity his wife, who is as much a pawn in his ego game as you have been. But unlike you, she can’t have the luxury of going NC unless she dumps him. You are in a great, strong position, focusing on yourself and not trying any more to continue to explain to him how he’s hurt you etc. yadda yadda, not playing his game, and you DO indeed win in this situation!
Well done Leanne, you’re well on the right track now. It’s horrible when they won’t leave you alone, I’m feeling pretty fed up and upset about what’s happened to me this week. Each time you get a confirmation that they are just like all the others, playing up to the same patterns as all the rest it’s painful, but also helps your NC efforts.
I realise I’m having a struggle with feeling mean doing NC this morning, this of course is all a trap set by him by him going the extra mile for me at work this week and positioning himself as indispensable to me. Not good but I’ll get through it.
I do wonder what goes through his mind, or if any of his behaviour is conscious???
I read this today, quite coincidentally:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unequallyyoked/2015/01/when-discerning-fewer-relationships-are-failed-ones.html
Ethelreda
This link was awesome!! This is exactly what I have been doing since the AC debacle; practicing detachment. Not connecting emotionally until I am sure there’s something to connect to. You made my morning! Since I am in this “not knowing what’s going to happen, what to do, what to prioritize” weird state of limbo, tis good to know at least I am doing one thing right. Btw , was actually a STEM postdoc myself at one time :).
Yeah totally agreed. You don’t necessarily need much in common to have a connection either. And you certainly don’t need either of those to have intimacy (in a physical sense at least). I think the best relationships come from having a little in common, and then the 2 people being sexually polar opposites: i.e. a very feminine woman with a highly masculine guy.
@lola, your posting resonated with me very deeply. First let me reassure you that the turmoil you currently feel will not last forever. But the reality is that your situation has no quick resolution. Your own life and happiness is much more in focus now your children have begun their own independent lives and I believe every mum needs to readjust, and you have the added factor that in looking to your husband you can see so clearly what is missing. I met my husband when we were both young. We have three wonderful children together, however our romantic and intimate life although often fun, was patchy and dwindled to nothing. Our marriage had so much good in it, I think I just coached myself into the “compromise and self sacrifice is morally good” position.
We have now been separated for three years, very amenable and in fact we spent Christmas day as a family. For that I am very grateful because despite my intellectual acceptance of the situation, my needs and desires culminated in an extra marital affair with, unsurprisingly !!, a man of very dubious character and a whole heap of heartache and misery. Once I had recovered from the pain he (other man) inflicted on me, I then had to face the guilt of my betrayal and also confront all the previous losses and unmet childhood needs which I had dealt with via denial….a lifelong journey. I am a completely different person to the young bride of 18 years ago. Thankfully, and yes also sadly.
Do you have a trusted family member to confide in? I guess in summing up I would say, do not deny your needs are valid. Emotional unavailability may be a factor, but take small steps and if you can, take time. In trying to recapture/ create passion and ‘connection’ my life has changed irrevocably. This post of Natalie’s along with many others, rings so true. I wish you all the best and the confidence that with honesty and self knowledge, you will be brave, whatever that means for you.
I believe it is very easy to confuse intimacy with an actual committed relationship. To me, the sexual act creates a bond with an individual…especially for women. I was heavily attracted to the feelings he showed in the bedroom. However, I discovered it wasn’t sincere. Just like all his thousands of crumbs, he was performing an act to reel me in, as well as many, many, many other women. Where the reality set in was when I was never a priority, always a secret, phone calls only after 9:00, etc., etc., etc. He really doesn’t even know me…at all… because he never really cared to know me. But he had a way of making me think that he did. For awhile. Until the mask started inching it’s way off. Sad because by that time, you are hooked. And I know….my particular guy was a sicko and one of the worst of men…but he still hooked me. Scary. I am doing great though. After the book burning, I feel calm and look forward to creating my new life and remembering who I was before I found him.
colly, leanne , lizzp and others,
been feeling torn between wanting to post details on here and worry abt husband finding these posts …. remember my final goodbye email yesterday after I broke NC last week and OM’s rudenes/coldness/ …and brush offs ….
well, in my final email, i let go.
and he replies back saying fine for us to be friends again …guess when i let go he likes me again …
he said he has been mad as right before we went NC, i asked him abt a girl at the old office and if they talked ….
this from him yesterday ‘ why should u care ? You’re married and physically distant from me…..’
anyway, we were back and forth on a couple of emails after that. I dont know quite what to say. but felt compelled to be truthful with u guys.
going to for now, keep a light friendship with him (absolutely no flirting from me or anything) ….hes not technically EU or anything, i mean we cant know that since im a married woman …
I’ll figure all this out ….
Oh Rags Mom, come on, you know that there is no such thing as a light friendship here. You have feelings for him and however you dress it up its you running from your internal pain and fear and the issues with your marriage. I understand it’s hard, I know how it feels, but this is only going to be a misadventure down torture lane that will go too far on your part. It will distract you and take you away from your family, you will get that distant look and as your brain is turning him over in your head again, and likely chance is your husband will notice. Please please don’t do this unless you have decided you’re leaving your husband, and leave him first. I’m frightened for you, this isn’t going to end well. And if you do genuinely care for OM then you’re not showing it by making him the OM.
I’ve had a tough week too with being ambushed a few times and having to work with him. I’ve just received a mail from him as I’m going to bed now telling me to have a safe trip home and that we will work out a solution together (for work). It’s him casting his reel out to me again, it’s not really a work message AG all, and its tempting to write back but I wont, I’m not putting myself in his control, I’m not that woman anymore.
I hope some aleep casts a clearer light for you by morning.
rags mom,
I have been following your story and although I never posted on it, I feel like I have to step in and say my opinion.
“Light friendship” is a denial. This is holding on to out of fear of changing your life. For you and him. You are both used to this addiction. It feels “comfortable” and “good.”
The best way to clear this all up is to go complete NC. Where you tell him that you are going NC for indefinite time for your and his sake. You can tell him or you don’t have to tell him. It doesn’t even matter. But you have to do it.
Any kind of friendship right now just won’t work. It might work much later, maybe years away, if you still need it at that point.
Right now it’s not a friendship but a different version of addiction to each other.
Rags Nom – Sofia and Colly are so so right. You are just heading directly for more pain, drama and humiliation. Completely honestly, it is as if you want to hurl yourself into an abyss. Nothing good and no peace is going to come from going down this road. Going by some of your other posts, every time you fail to elicit the validation you are so desperate for from him, you will fall into a heap of self loathing. This is not blaming. It’s so very clear from your posts that you cannot see at all clearly what you are doing to yourself.
I hope you will somehow be able to pull back and find some help from a good counsellor – who will also be able to provide some one on one support
Rags Mom – I have been following your story as well – and I agree with Sofia. You say you want to focus on your marriage but by engaging in ‘light friendship’ with this guy you won’t be able to focus on your marriage, your husband or you. You will be creating a fantasy. I think you are telling yourself that friendship is okay and you can handle it. But you have feelings for this guy….its just like how I can’t be friends with my ex right now. I am not indifferent to him and when I tried to be friends with him was always hurt but I continually lied to myself telling myself I could be his friend. His BS. You need to walk away from this guy. Its not worth it. I agree with others that you are seeking validation, an ego stroke, just like my ex does every 3 months or so. Its not fair. If this guy feels anything for you like I do/did for my ex – you have to think about him and walk away and do the right thing. You are married. End of story. Do what is right for him regardless of him saying you can be friends….you two don’t add anything to each others lives but drama and hurt. Stop the addiction now.
one more thing … look at it this way. You are Leanne’s MM. And your OM is Leanne. Do you want him to be hurt like Leanne? Do you want to keep approaching him like Leanne’s MM is doing? No. You want Leanne’s MM to leave her alone so she can heal and he can be with his wife. Its the same situation. You need to be with your husband and leave this guy alone.
Ragsmom, I am curious … what is there about this guy, and his actions towards you, that make you feel he is worthy of a “friendship” of any kind? You mentioned a light friendship …. I ask this because sometimes as women we feel like we “should” be nicey-nicey and that means being “friends” with someone who has intentionally hurt us. It took me a long long time to realize that I don’t want to be friends with people who hurt me either intentionally, or because they are so sick that they hurt me unintentionally. Just curious about what there is about him that is worthy of a friendship of any kind ….
Nina, I get (and strongly) the opposite impression from Rags Mom’s very detailed prolific posts on the OM affair. It’s not so much that he has intentionally hurt her (though he may have at certain times) as much as she keeps persisting in (unintentionally) hurting herself. She keeps breaking NC to seek validation. It’s about her, not about her thinking that she should be friends with him because she thinks that’s what he wants, or that’s what ‘you do’. She is literately not leaving him alone. Whatever his qualities, good, bad, or other the drive to be in this guy’s life seems to stem from some sort of fixed idea that he will, must or should validate her. It is painful because he is essentially there to distract RM from herself and at certain points (from other posts), I believe RM has realised that.
But sorry, I was intending to just comment on the idea that this guy necessarily intentionally hurt her, when so many of Rag’s Mom posts seem to be about her unintentionally hurting herself.
To Rags Mom,
I shouldn’t have gone on to answer a question that was for you. That’s not my place, and was the wrong thing to do. My apologies Rag’s Mom.
Here’s my question: If a guy knows a woman is married, and doesn’t come right out and say upfront at the beginning, “You know, I don’t go out with married women, period; no flirting, nothing,” is that leading her on in a way? If a guy “gets off” with his ego stroke for being desired by a married woman, and kinda sorta goes along with it, with mild flirtatious encouragement (or even just passive acceptance), is that ethical behavior on his part?
I kinda think not, and that’s why I think it’s even more painful for Rag’s Mom. She didn’t get a solid affirmative “No, thanks” from this guy, and thus began to live in her fantasies. And that hurts, whether intentional or not.
I may be one who draws a pretty firm line in the sand between married / partnered men, and available men, but that may be because I myself participated in some pretty shabby behavior with partnered men long ago, and I know how much it hurt myself, and, whether the wife / girlfriend knew or not (they didn’t), it was still harmful behavior that had to hurt their relationship on some level. I had to do a 180 on my own mindset, and it has been very helpful to keep my own side of the street clean, and avoid pain all around by no longer allowing myself to get into painful relationships with EUM’s.
Hope that explains the pain part; I can’t see how staying casual friends in that circumstance, after it’s over, would be anything but hurtful to all parties. I was in that situation once, trying to remain friends with someone who didn’t deserve my friendship, and only pulling the plug and going NC entirely helped me to move on and grow in my own strength and development. Otherwise I would have continued to whack myself with a brick and suffer my self-inflicted fantasy bruises.
Nina, I think I get your point.
Mostly here there are OWs posting about their involvements with MMs. But the opposite situation is not any different. And I would define an MM/MW and OW/OM dynamic as being present in any relationship where the man or woman is either married or in a primary relationship with someone else and is involved with a third. After the OW/OM finds out and remains she/he then becomes responsible for his/her part and begins to share in the deception of the wife/girlfriend or husband/boyfriend. OW/OM or MM/MW, each needs to own their own and not pass that responsibility to the other. In the context of NC, each owning their own means that if, for eg, the MM/MW attempts to make contact then he/she is wholly responsible to him/her self for the act of breaking NC. The OW/OM is responsible in his/her choice of response. If an MW is saying to herself that the other man did not refuse her advance and that means she is good to proceed then she is not taking responsibility for herself. It is her responsibility to proceed regardless of the OM’s response. In exactly the same way as a Married Man saying to himself that because another woman did not refuse his advances that makes her responsible for his further advances. No. He is responsible for his further advances and she is responsible for her own reaction to them.
In my past I too have participated (knowingly) in being involved with an MM (partnered). I deceived his partner behind her back. It was the wrong thing to do. I have also in the past deceived a boyfriend with another man and I can tell you it never ever crossed my mind to hold how he responded to me as a get out of jail for my own abhorrent dishonesty with my then boyfriend. I held and still hold myself fully accountable. My life was shit, my relationship was floundering, my self esteem was shot to shit, I was vulnerable and the OM’s responsiveness did indeed help “feed my fantasies” but none of that, none, made the OM or my then boyfriend the slightest bit responsible for what I chose to do. At the same time if this other guy had tried to tell me that he was holding me responsible for his decision to deceive my boyfriend along with me (he didn’t), I would have laughed in his face.
Nina, I went a bit general there. Re Rags Mom not getting a definite “no” from him when it started up – thus leading to her beginning to live in fantasy. The implicit assumption is that he is responsible for her response to his non-definite “no”, but we can’t control and be responsible for someone else’s propensity for fantasy. That’s why I think that Rags Mom is hurting her self and that the level of pain has everything to do with her own perceptions and self esteem. It’s horrible and her breaking NC compounds it.
General question re a guy getting off, getting an ego stroke from flirting with a married woman – well that’s his own thing, if he does it that’s up to him. Hypothetically say, if I was on the receiving end as an MW I could just walk off if I didn’t like what he was insinuating or the way things were going. If I was looking for distraction from my problems because I was unable to deal with them I might choose to return the flirt (and I would know that I had just crossed a thresh hold into some self deception). If I’m looking to get laid behind Hubbie’s back and don’t give a hoot as long as I can hide it then I might explore the possible opportunity. (just trying to illustrate that it’s about us – not them – our own behaviour is about us).
I guess the point is my concern isn’t if he’s being ethical or not, as long as *I’m being respectful and trusting of myself*. My concern is how I deal with me in accordance with my own ethical standards. Maybe a guy who flirts with an MW at a BBQ (for eg)gets off on a feeling of getting one over husbands, tempting taken women, or maybe none of that, maybe he’s just a friendly man appreciating an attractive married woman.
Same question can be asked about a woman flirting, getting off, getting an ego stroke from flirting with an MM. Again I guess it depends – but that is on the woman – perhaps she has a pattern of playing pick me with unavailable/taken guys, perhaps not, maybe she is EU and looking for a safe (emotionally speaking for EU) distraction, maybe she secretly envies MWs, maybe her dad liked her sister better, maybe she is just a happily unattached woman appreciating an attractive MM. The MM can walk away when she goes to far and crosses his line or not, that is his decision.
I just think that the unethical starts when deception starts. Maybe it’s unethical to deceive ourselves – any way this is fast track to barmy land – philosophers in history have lost their marbles over less. It’s up to us to know our boundaries and what treating ourselves and others with care, trust and respect looks and feels like – then we will be able to pull ourselves up if we begin busting our own ethical boundary lines. And if someone seems to be pushing that line with their own behaviour towards us we can can respond according to who we are.
Lizzp, I agree 1000% that we don’t have any control over what the OM/MM does. Totally! The thing is, if they know we’re wishy-washy about really cutting them off, and they continue to stand there hoping for a cookie (or crumbs), then my question is …. is that kind of a OM/MM person, who is knowingly standing there, rather than respectfully walking away,really worthy of an ongoing friendship? I would think not….
You hit it spot on when you said the unethical starts when the deception starts. I have learned that this includes being deceptive to ourselves; hanging on, hoping for the crumbs of a barely-there “friendship” when there should be no relationship at all. Otherwise, at least for me, it’s just a straight-up recipe for very predictable pain.
Nina, I agree. In the circumstance you describe, I wouldn’t think such a man would be worthy of friendship with the MW. On the other hand, the person who chooses to walk away when they should, or is clear that it’s no go but then is still pestered before walking, is not going to have a friendship with the MW. She might be thought of as unworthy of his friendship? So I guess my answer to your question is that neither of them are worthy of having the ongoing friendship of the other. I just don’t happen to think that question is so relevant in this context.
Bottom line IMO is that no real friendship is possible in the immediate aftermath of an MW – OM dynamic (read deception) and vice versa. One day after true NC and true moving on if they happened to meet again and had both worked on their stuff maybe a friendship.
Rags Mom,
He is definitely EU btw, like attracts like in these cases, and you are being very EU with him and the family you have at home.
You and he seem to play the same games with each other that my ex OM does with me. If the other person is out of reach then you have to do something to bring them back under your spell, or get a hit of the emotional crack. Please stop, it’s not good for anyone, it’s painful, and erodes your sense of self and your self respect.
Lizzp’s comment about your self loathing is right on point, and you seem to use it as an excuse to keep you in the same place and not move on.
I’m sorry if I appear harsh in anyway, it’s all out of concern for you.
I’m feeling awful today, as I posted back to lizzp earlier, the ambushes I’ve had this week and having to work with him have hit me now in quite a delayed effect. All the pain is coming back up, playing loops in my head, I can feel I’ve had a small hit of the crack and its giving me withdrawal symptoms. I won’t act on this though, I know that at the start of this week I felt well and I know I’ll get there again. I’m acknowledging my feelings and letting them pass. How about you try too?
Please keep us posted so we can support you.
Nel,
I am not sure if this note will reach you. Still today I must make an effort to re-connect with one of my dearest BR friends. If I remember correctly, Jan 23 is your Birthday.
So on this special occasion I wanted to send you my warmest wishes. I hope each sphere of your life is filled with happiness and hope.
Your words and those of Lady Lue continue to give me strength.
Love,
Nigella
Nigella, do you mean Nel – LovefromNell I believe her name was?
I hope she is doing well. I remember she started dating someone, who seemed to be a kind man. I wonder how she is doing. I remember she had gone through quite some time and work of healing. The guy just disappeared on her with no explanation at all.
Happy Birthday, Nel, if you are still reading or even if you are not!
Nigella, it’s really a pleasure to see your name and good to know you’re still out there. Always warmest wishes to you.
And Happy Birthday to you Nell if you ever get to read this.
@rags mom, wow, I thought you were really done the other day. Sounds like it’s hard for you both to let go.
Now I think would be a really good time for you to assess what you want from this relationship. Do you actually want a light friendship? Or are you holding out hope that you’ll rekindle the old flame (and maybe be together one day?). What’s your goal or ideal outcome here?
I ask because, Again, from being on the receiving side of this kind of relationship, it’s a tough situation. What do you think he actually wants? Is this friendship going to be a mutually agreeable relationship for both of you?
And separately, what does it all mean for you and your husband?
My EUM is so wonderful, but so textbook unavailable. he has told me I expect him to be what he’s not, He has been honest, too honest, yet I didn’t want to believe him about not needing to be in a relationship, tho we were, he just didn’t want to deal with the obligations he said. i hoped our love could make it better. Anyway, after the last, “I need time to sort through my feelings and need space” I realized that this isn’t going to change and know I need to get out, but I’m so sexually attracted to him no other man compares. I’ve read the articles, but how to quit being so attracted to this man? if I could quit that, I could quit him, I really do think so because I’ve had enough.
Susie,
We often want something more if we realise we can’t have it. You realise that your EUM is not that wonderful and he is obviously causing you pain else you wouldn’t realise you needed to leave. Sexual attraction is definitely not worth pain and desperation. Leave, you will find someone again that drives you wild, I promise.
Susie, your EUM played the Teflon card. That is a red flag. What’s the Teflon card? That is where very early on the man states something along the lines of “I am not ready for a relationship.” or “ All my relationships fail.” or “You’re too good for me.” or “You deserve better”. It is an early statement saying “I am not looking for a relationship but if you want to pretend this is a relationship I won’t stop you and you can’t blame me because I told you what I was like from the gate and any pain you feel from this day forward is on you.”
If you just want casual fun times and casual sex with NO tomorrows, this is the guy for you. If that’s not what you want, then dump him and move on. You cannot “love” a relationship into being. Bottom line.
Aaah! This is brilliant. The Teflon card! I shall remember this and use in my future assessments. Now I know how to call that AC behavior.
What’s tricky about those teflon gentlemen is that they do say sth like this in the beginning but rarely repeat it later (unless they are really dissatisfied with you). So in the beginning it seems that it’s a slip of a tongue confession from, an involuntarily one. And we should be run for the hills immediately after we hear it. BR helps to be alert to such phrases and be alert to other contradictions these teflon types often pull off. I too was guilty of staying with a person like this. God knows what I though at that time. I guess I thought that half a loaf was okay with me. But, as always with them, that half a loaf quickly turned into crumbs and upon close inspection, even the crumbs were moldy.
Thank you guys …I feel like I can be myself here and advice is always given kindly …I thought you guys would reply in disgust and exasperation.
Nat, thanks for letting me talk on here and not asking me to go join an Assclown’s blog ….
What I want = just to be his friend for the next 25 years. He’s not in the same country and he dates women his age. I have a 5 year old and my responsibilities.
Maybe he can be mine when I’m 80 and hes 71.
No, I’m not trying to be funny …not everything has to have a beginning, a path and a conclusion , right ?
We have never had sx and now we dont flirt anymore either, so it is just friends..like emails to my kid brother
Nina, not sure how to answer ur question …but since we started NC on an angry note (and I was the one who called NC ) Ive been feeling tired and lethargic and listless … all I have back now is a tiny little peice of his mind thats all ….thats all I can allow myself to have even if more did be on offer …but thats been enuf , the world seems like a beautiful place again. okay okay I’ll shut up. going to keep posting on here to discuss whats happening with y’all …enuf abt me.
Ragsmom, the tired and listless and lethargic feelings may be the numbness from all of the pain around this. It may be part of your healing and recovery, and I can certainly understand those feelings! I was numb for months over a bad breakup (leading me to this site, and to reading and discovering a lot about my own codependency), and slept a lot. Sort of like recovering from a long illness.
One thing Nat said that really sticks with me (as a good heads-up lesson to me) is that we don’t always owe them an explanation as to why we’re going NC, or that we’re even going to go NC. If a relationship isn’t working for any reason, I am learning that perhaps the best thing (for me)is to give a short, simple explanation, no long drawn-out treatises, and then just go NC; sometimes (with me) the less said, the better, as they know darn well why I’m going NC.
Rags Mom, you’re in denial I’m afraid and you’re putting yourself and your marriage in danger. A friendship is not a friendship if it has to be a secret, which this would be a dangerous secret from your husband. This man is not your friend.
It looks as if you’ve made your mind up, and we’ll be here for you when it goes South, because I’m afraid it will
“I thought you guys would reply in disgust and exasperation.”
No, that’s a projection. Perhaps there is a measure of disgust and exasperation in the answers you give to yourself?
Colly, that took amazing strength to do what you did this past week, especially with him in driving distance ……(HUGS)
Thanks Rags Mom, I wasn’t strong enough I’m afraid as I gave him the airtime to express his personal views/feelings to me.
If I was properly strong I’d have hung up. Still,
I’m telling myself I shouldn’t get into beating myself up over this as I am still done and have done so much better than before.
He wasn’t in driving distance this week, would have taken days to drive there, but honestly I wouldn’t have done anyway.
Someone actually suggested he came on the same trip a couple of weeks back but I blocked it to save my own skin!
Please take care Rags Mom and please try to come back to us, believe me the gains to be made from disconnecting and focusing on yourself are huge.
Hugs
Thanks @sofia and @nina, I meant the loss of the relationship as a whole (friendship and all prior to this), but you’re right that there was no real relationship here. 99% of it was in my head! (With his help).
Feeling stronger bit by bit. I hate that a huge part of my focus these days is me worrying about what he thinks of me and how I’ve come across. I saw he signed up for an event at work that he knows I’ll be at (and he doesn’t need to attend). I’m going to opt out of it this year, but it looks like he’s trying to find ways to be around me, so I guess he can’t think I’m totally crazy. But ultimately, who cares??
Another huge part of my days (and nights) right now are thinking about them having their baby and being a happy family (though of course I wish them well. It just hurts:(
I’m going to keep doing my cbt work while I get over this and keep trying to see him for the loser he is. In the meantime though, I’m trying to brainstorm a hobby or two I can get really into to stop thinking about this stuff (and break this damn connection in my head!). I’m thinking guitar and just seeing friends lots.
Hi Leanne,
Him trying to find ways to be around you says nothing about what he’s thinking about you, it’s more about finding ways in to get some control back. They hate is when you stand your ground and they lose their control of you, as my experiences this week have shown too.
I share your feelings, I’m right there with all the same types of things playing through my mind. It’s about grieving all the lost hopes and dreams. It drives me crazy, I just wish I could stop my head going to these places, but I find it’s easier to just notice it and then let it pass rather than fight myself. It’s annoying too when you’ve had a day or so feeling really grounded and then wake up the next day batshit again. All part of the natural process I guess.
Good luck this week
Rags mom, Honey.
You have literally left reality and entered stalkerville. And you are the AC in this case. Didnt this man tell you to stop emailing him? He doesn’t want a friendship with you. He said “why should you care, arent you married”. What do you think that meant?!! You just want any type of ‘in’ to keep bugging this man. Is is an ego thing where you feel some kind of rejection from this man (never mind you are married and he is supposed to reject you) or are you trying desperately to escape from yourself and/or your marriage/current life. Are you pining for some sort of drama/external stimuli and find is exciting that you were about to get caught/getting away with emailing another man? From what I see, it so clearly has nothing to do with this OM, as he is only the OM in your head. This is ALL YOU.
ljsrmissy, Say it like it is sister. I can’t read Rags situation in any other way but this.
Thank you. Without drafting my own baggage /issue although I have the need to share, I simply want to thank you for I have been reading your blog since a couple of weeks and every time I read something here it’s like daily bread not only for my current state of being but for a longterm benefit of the mind. Greetings from Germany.
Sofia,
I’ve just been catching up with posts on the last article and saw yours about your LD man. Wow, the similarities between the connection you seemed to have with him sounded just the same as mine with ex OM – also colleagues and LD. Strongest connection I’ve ever had with anyone – perhaps that’s the EU mirror effect? He also tells me how he loves me and always will. It’s confusing, I’m confused.
I wanted to ask you if you had any thoughts about how much of the connection was real and how much was your invention? I’m struggling with this myself. Or maybe I’m mixing connection and intimacy as this post suggests?
Despite all the horrid stuff he did I miss him, I still feel the connection and I miss that, and I think it’s that that feeds my emotional crack addiction to him.
Id love to hear your thoughts?
Wow I need sleep, travelling all night, need to get my NC resolve worked up ready for Monday.
Colly,
Great question, “how much of the connection was real and how much was your invention?”
That really made me think. I don’t think it was my invention. I know I didn’t come up with it because I know, that I can’t fabricate a connection. I never had this kind of connection with the most recent ex. We had different kind of connection. Physical and sex. Never emotional. With this guy, I had an emotional connection for years. I never had it with anyone else. There was something beyond even real. For instance, one night I was falling asleep and talking to him in my head, saying, ” I am thinking of you, good night.” The next morning, he told me that as he was going to sleep he did the same thing as I did. I know this example is childish and silly, but we had more than one incidences like these and these all sound like from a movie. So I would rather bring other examples. We would discuss different subjects, on literature, or politics, or religion. Or whatever else. About family , how we bring up kids and our values.
As different as our views were sometimes, it was no problem finding a compromise. When I finally flew 3 hours to meet him, I realized that we had a physical compatibility as well. It was not a physical sparks chemistry. it was rather a different kind of connection fueled by all the emotional connection we had had. I was confident that I had finally met the one. Never had that feeling with the ex who brought me here.
Why and what I did with that ex, who knows, I learned just recently here.
The long distance guy…. I still miss him in many ways. Conversations, sharing about our days, humor, understanding each other. I know for sure the connection I felt was genuine for me. What he felt I will never know. But I can speak for myself it was real. I had never had any similar feeling before. Was it because he was long distance and far away and it made me feel safe? But what about when I met him and was sure he was the one and was willing to take the steps to work on it to get us together? I was ready and available. I believed we were close and could try it. So to answer your question, I think it was not in my head. It was for real for me. But then another question it was for real for me in my head back then in the condition I was. Could I consider this kind of a connection a “connection” now? Probably not. I could not sustain anything long-term and non-progressing now. My views of what connection is have changed. But back then he was a connection. So I just gave a very complicated answer and probably answered nothing. Simply he was back then. But no more:)
thanks lizzp, colly, and ljsrmissy – I know everything u guys have said is right.
I’m not going to go NC tho. But it will be different – I think I can do this – care for him and be there as a friend when he wants to talk, without betraying my marriage or putting any further expectations on him. I think I can do the right thing here in my own way with all the recent wisdom gained – basically the spirit of NC is to let go, I think I can be true to that.
And point taken, not going to refer to him as OM anymore , he never was and never will be.
Col – re what happened with you guys this week – only you know the men in your life well, the rest of us are guessing here – but to be honest, I can understand your OM being in a controlling marriage and worried abt custody etc. I think you’re doing the right thing tho – cos he needs to step up and decide if he can go through all the steps it will take to have you in his life and he needs to respect that OW status just doesnt cut it for you anymore – he also needs to respect your wish to focus on your marriage having decided u were done with the affair.
Leanne, I’m glad ur still posting on here frequently, a few days back u said u might cut back a bit and I genuinely felt sad lke I would miss you …(altho I also questioned myself as to how needy Ive become that I’m shaken that someone I knew online for a month might no longer be around) … hope u stay a while more !
Also, I was thinking about ur situation fter reading ur latest post this morning – altho u have compared me with ur Jim a few times, I always felt I was more like Colly’s OM since she mentioned hes terrified of custody issues as well ….but who knows maybe , Jim has some fears of his own (not justifying his AC tho).
An interesting aspect of his behaviour tho is that uve said u guys made out, and the attraction was insane – so I’m assuming there was a phase last autumn say, where if he had pushed the right buttons , he could have perhaps caught u at a weak moment and taken it all the way, physically I mean. Have you ever asked urself why he didnt ? (u dont have to analyse it over a post here if u dont want to) – I just wondered thats all. He is AC undoubtedly, but why didnt he take what was on offer fully at that point ? respect for you ? more feelings for his marriage than what u originally thought ?
I fully still believe in what all the relationship gurus tell us – I read my favourite Nat posts almost daily (ambiguous relations and bringin the focus back to us) ….but I think when our own EUness has caused a certain situation (getting attracted to someone while still being married, or getting attracted to someone who is married)…then we need to dig a little deeper perhaps , cos there may be one or two shades of grey there.
Despite all I have said abt my noble reasons for not pushing ahead with a divorce, i know it boils down to fear even lethargy , laziness , …there are plenty of people out there who went through the pain of divorce and emerged out free and strong after years of healing that it takes to let themselves find love again. Life should be black and white.
Thanks Lizzp, for your continued suggestions that I seek counselling on a one on one basis, I’m looking into that and Nats courses as well.
Just read my post above and realised I sounded like I was contradicting myself by the end of it.
1. I do need to figure out my marriage and if its unworkable, I need to root out fear of divorce.
2. Whilst I do the above, I should not betray the marriage with any infidelity – not words or action. Thoughts are far harder but words and action/s under control usually mean thoughts follow too.
3. I dont want to pursue anything with OM even after a divorce if I do end up divorcing. I dont belive and this is just my situation, I dont believe an age gap of 27 to 36 is bridgeable I know there are plenty of couples who have done it, I just cant.
Rags you are betraying your marriage, having a secret friendship with a man you have feelings for is an affair, no other way of dressing it up. If your husband can’t know about something you shouldn’t be doing it.
Like the others on here I believe you are seeking validation from OM. You have given yourself a whole raft of excuses for why it won’t work, and have told him it won’t work, yet are still pursuing him for an ego stroke. Sorry but you are, and you are being like my ex OM because you are doing the same thing he is doing to me. I dont know your OMs feelings for you, but if he feels even a fraction of what I felt/feel for my ex OM then I beg you to please stop and leave him be. Give him space to live his life and get your house in order.
To be clear my ex OM finished with me, while I couldnt stand the affair anymore I was that ground down and blind to his flaws I don’t think I would have left him myself. I was all prepared to move to the US and take my daughter with me to be with him. Looking back I think I had a lucky escape.
So in my world if you dump someone you then leave them alone, but he doesn’t, he pops up every week or so and prods for some kind of validation, and tends to like to remind me how he made his choice and it was the right one but he will always love me – like rubbing my nose in it. This last two weeks is the first time he has seen some resolve from me and he’s panicked a bit because his comfort blanket has disappeared. He’s screwed up and I’m having to fight my Florence instincts very hard.
Anyway, point is, he is not showing me or his wife love and respect through his actions. You are not showing OM or your husband, or yourself love and respect through your actions.
Please Rags Mom, myself, Leanne and others on here know what it’s like to be on the receiving end of what you’re doing. Most importantly you are damaging yourself very badly.
Please wake up as you told me too only a few weeks back.
Hugs
Ragsmom, you are minimizing and denyingthe impact of what you are doing. And no, NC isn’t just “the spirit of letting go.” Not at all. NC means exactly that; not pseudo-friends, or partial-friends, or “being there” when he wants to talk (??). It means no talking, no texts, no FB, nothing. There’s a reason for it. You are trying to do a half-thing, and justifying it to yourself, and it’s like putting only half of a match to your curtains; the whole house is still gonna go up in flames.
You owe NC to yourself, to figure out your marriage (and not with any motivation of “well,maybe sometime down the road this other guy and I will be together” mind games, but strictly looking at the strengths / weaknesses of your marriage on its own merit.
You owe NC to him. He’s said as much. ‘Nuf said.
You owe NC to your husband, to give your marriage a chance on its own, without you “being there” for some other guy, which is just like walking through the woods at night when you know there’s quicksand but you don’t know exactly where it is; but you can be pretty sure you’re going to fall in it sooner or later.
Going NC in the real sense of the word (perhaps re-read Nat’s book on the How and Why of it) is a gift to yourself in this situation. Do you not feel you are worth it, and ultimately, knowing you are keeping your side of the street squeaky-clean as you process all of this?
ragsmom, I don’t think it’s the age gap that’s the real problem. It’s your persistent obsession and the relationship’s overall lack of integrity and honesty.
When you think about it, it’s been based on a lie from Day 1, hasn’t it?
And can you seriously imagine telling your friends, or your kids, ten years from now,
‘… Oh, the way we met was so romantic. We had a work thing, but then it turned into a clandestine online long-distance relationship for ages, with heaps of fighting and mistrust and accusations, and I turned into a stalker at one point. Finally my husband found out and we had to get divorced, so then I pursued X until he cracked and agreed to marry me. Isn’t it great?’
Try to imagine a friend of yours telling you this story. Would you actually say, ‘Yay! Great! You’ve done so well for yourself!’
Or would you say, ‘Cheez, kiddo, this sounds like a nightmare that could all have been avoided if you’d just sorted out your own problems without dragging a whole lot of other people into the mess.’
oops , i just called him OM again….
@rags mom, sounds like you are doing some good long reflection on yourself and your situation. Good work!! You will get there (to epiphanies about what you want and how to grow from this) if you give yourself lots of space from OM and post and work on yourself. You are doing well 🙂
@colly, I totally understand the up and downs and what you’re going through. Amazing how even a nights sleep can change things from hes and AC to I miss him so much. I too will be glad when the roller coaster of emotions dies down. Good work staying NC :). You sound like you are doing really well. You’re like the train car in front of me and I’m following your lead!
I have so many questions and bottled up feelings about MM (and even regret at over losing my shit last weekend so that we can’t be friends and in contact now). But I know it was for the best because we just couldn’t carry on as friends or anything else.. He is having a baby with someone else!! It was a good thing to kick us out of the feelings and connection. But I feel really sad and stupid about it all today and am so up and down with grief. On a bright note I’ve been NC for over a week now!
I’m glad you’re maintaining NC, Leanne. Well done!
He is having a baby with someone else!! It was a good thing to kick us out of the feelings and connection.
Quick reality check: the baby is not the issue here. The baby is not the thing that should be keeping you well away from this man.
It’s the fact that he’s married. M.A.R.R.I.E.D. And therefore a cheater. C.H.E.A.T.E.R.
You will need to do some hard work on your boundaries about this for the future, or you’ll turn into a repeat offender.
There’s a million of them out there: sad single women who just can’t stay away from ambivalent, flip-flappy, charming married men. They sacrifice years of their lives just hanging on and hanging on, until they hit their late 30s and whoops! suddenly there’s no one in their lives, and they’re so damaged that it will be very hard for them to form a meaningful relationship with anyone.
Don’t be one of them.
I’m reading this book called Bad Boyfriends: Using Attachment Theory to Avoid Mr. (or Ms.) Wrong and Make You a Better Partner. It says if you’re an anxious attachment type, your attachment system gets triggered when you meet a dismissive attachment type (lots of mixed signals, anxiety, never quite knowing where you stand, feeling the person is ‘mysterious’ etc) and you translate that into “sparks and chemistry.” If you don’t feel that (such as with a secure type, who is straightforward and consistent), you perceive the person as not being “the one.”
Thanks, Diane. I need to check this one out. For future dating awareness.
Diane,
Thanks for this, and I understand this completely. I have had thoughts that this might be what tipped me over the edge into having an affair. Once I knew my husband was a solid, stable, reliable person that would not abandon me and I lost my anxiety I didn’t recognise the attraction anymore. Of course the other aspect is that when truly faced with intimacy in a long term relationship I can’t cope with it so start sabotaging.
Colly, I know what you’re describing. I had a relatioship with a “secure” type only once in my life and we were both too young for getting that deep and serious. But we ended it on good terms (though it pained me). However, I learnt from him that when a person is AVAILABLE and, as Diane describes, a secure attachment type, then it’s really okay to say something like “sometimes I feel like I am a balloon ready to fly away, I get so scared of how stable and reliable our relationship and you are. Is this crazy?” and ask your partner to hold you (not choke you with affection). What is interesting, is that a normal grown up person who is in it with his both feet, will try to accomodate your anxious attachment type. It does not absolve us of responsibility of working on ourselves and our insecurities of course. But it is also okay to voice your fears and anxieties too. I feel like it’s part of being intimate.
Selkie, just a quick note (out of room up there for where this should go). “flush with finality for freedom from future fumbles.”. Nice one.
This article is incredibly honest and eye-opening, but I feel like I’m drowning out here… There are so many rules, behaviours and other stuff to observe! It’s not enough to have a connection with someone anymore, now I gotta worry about intimacy too? It’s no wonder I’m turning 31 and still struggling to maintain a courtship for more than 3-6 months!
I broke up with my EU ex almost 2 years ago to the day, and after a 9 month period of “me time”, I decided to get back on the horse and start dating around the time of my 30th birthday. So, it’s been a year of solid dating (mostly online dating) and I am no closer to meeting The One than when I started.
Truthfully, I’m losing the will to live out here… The constant head f**kery of getting to know these men who I initially connect well with and they check most, if not all of my boxes in terms of holding a job, no crazy babymama drama, etc – only for them to turn out to be massive arseh*les is getting me down. Are there really so few decent men left in London? Is this neverending cycle of disappointment and disillusionment all I can expect from actively dating?
Just last night I had I to inform my latest squeeze that I couldn’t see him anymore because he’s too oppressive/defensive and refuses to listen to, or allow me to express an opinion on anything without jumping my down my throat with an opposing argument. He was over analytical and critical, and made me cry on our 2nd date. He’d swear blind that he was “fine” after a disagreement, but he would become all distant and cold and wouldn’t look me in the eye. I shoulda known from then it wasn’t going to work out, but he offered to be less critical (no, not an apology) and I gave him the BOTD. Wish I hadn’t bothered in hindsight.
Another guy who I met on Match.com and was communicating with via email for a month beforehand, kept confusing me with another woman he was talking to whenever we would message each other! He apologised for it once he realised, but by this point I was already turned off (just way too much information revealed in his messages!). He then went on to offer me a place to stay in his house (free of charge) to help me save for my deposit, but was too busy to arrange a time to actually meet (he’s a property developer). When I mentioned this to him, he became rather abrupt and basically said, “Feel free to continue seeing others as I don’t know when I’ll be available – it’s tax return season and I have other things to sort out…”. Errrr, OK then.
I’m not saying I’m perfect out here, but these guys are something else! I don’t turn up expecting each man I date to right the wrongs of those I dated before. I don’t turn up expecting much at all really – barring good company and good banter. Whatever happened to chivalry? Respect? Good manners? Making a woman feel wanted and special? I get told all the time how pretty I am, and they make so much effort to procure my number and a date in the beginning – but it all turns to sh*t very soon afterwards. Am I too gullible? Easily fooled? Is it something I’m doing wrong?
I’d really love to know how to get past the dating phase and move into the loving, meaningful relationship phase.
Lupie84, are you even sure you’re ready for the dating phase?
I know you spent 9 months on ‘me time’, but was the ‘me time’ spent actually redrawing your boundaries and getting really strong and confident?
I read your post, and after I thought about it, I wondered if there could be a few different things going on here:
1) You have done the necessary work on yourself, but now that you have raised the bar, you’re realising just how many dickheads you dated in the past, and are still perhaps accidentally choosing them.
Solution: None needed. If you’re flushing them, then that’s a good thing and shows you’ve grown.
2) You haven’t done the necessary work on yourself, and so you’re still picking the dickheads online. You’re choosing men with particular backgrounds, careers, traits and interests that are actually working against you.
Solution: Get off the horse again, and do some thinking about yourself and what you are doing.
3) You’re doing too much online dating. Lots of dickheads out there, so statistically you’re just reaping the ‘reward’ of that factor.
Solution: Try realtime meetup events instead, but non-dating and non-singles ones. Take the pressure off yourself.
My worry is your use of the term ‘The One’, which is a concept guaranteed to make any woman utterly, utterly miserable. Maybe if you stop looking for ‘the one’ and aim just to have a nice time and a good dinner with someone pleasant, this might cheer you up.
PS. My English friends assure me English men are crap and London is full of EUMs, if that helps … which it doesn’t …
Lupie, I have to disagree with Ethelreda, it’s not you, you are not “choosing” these guys, it’s what is out there. The ones who are comfortable pairing up have steadily done so, and by the time you get to a certain age (tho you are still young) there are few of them left. I hope you aren’t making the mistake that I see a lot of young women making and going for “older” men thinking they will be more mature, reliable, committed, etc. Go for the ones around your age. Trust me, if he’s hit 40 and hasn’t already been married or is widowed, then there’s a reason he’s single, and he will most likely already be. The pool is no better over here across the pond, and there are so many women basically willing to accept any behavior, that they quickly flake out on ones who demand a little more. It’s just a product of the times. 50 years ago, if a guy wasn’t married by 27 or so, he was considered homosexual, or “funny” or whatever … now, no one cares. Most guys figure they can wait until they’re 60 and then bag a 28-year-old. They are in for a big surprise, but they don’t know that (thanks, Hollywood!)
I meant “most likely always be” single
The problem lies with the guys not you, I have the same issues, I get messed around let down all the time by guys who say I am ‘out of their league’. I would like to meet someone to forge something meaningful all I seem to get is offers of quick and easy sex. There seems to be issues with all the guys I meet!
True there is a lot of idiots out there. Keep trying though!
Cherry,
Cherry,
Classic line (out of their league) used by EUM describing perfectly their non-committal tendencies to begin with and wanting an out basically (used on me too by the way). And more EUM symptoms as described in Spanish Jackie’s story below.
Yes idiots in adult form as basically they are still little children yet to grow up and take on the mantle of adulthood.
Lupie, if I may, try finding a book called “Calling in the one”. It’s a very unfortunate (and stupid) title for this book as it actually concentrates on ensuring you understand YOURSELF better and establish your values in dating.
Oh no, I’ve caught myself deliberately provoking unnecessary work emails today to seek validation. Next step is to get back to where I was pre US trip and stop myself before I act. Feeling frustrated with myself right now.
@Colly.. I am feeling the exact same way!! What is wrong with us?? Okay, just stop where you’re at and post here instead. Or read old articles, find something else to give you a rush/a hit of the love drug, because really that’s what we’re looking for. I had to send out a work email today to everyone and then ever since was desparately watching to see if he would respond (as he always used to) in an individual way. But nope. It’s a good thing. But then I run through all the old past exchanges in my head, how much he hurt me, what this all meant to him. And at the end of the day, I am embarrassed because I think he thinks I’m seeking contact (which I suppose I miss and wish for but really don’t want). Set a mini goal and stay no contact til next week. See how you feel then. I guarantee it will be better than this!! Hugs.
Yes Leanne its awful, its the addiction. Its so frustrating because I was doing so well. As lizzp said to me, I would have a delayed effect from listening to him, and I have. I feel so weakened! I will set a goal for the end of the week, its so necessary and I know I’ve felt better NC than I have for years. OMG I’m so bored of myself, heaven knows you all must be really bored!
Colly,
You could do with a longer break without any contact whatsoever. If somehow it could be arranged at work that he doesn’t get to deal with you. I know that’s probably unrealistic and you’re doing a great job with your reflecting, it would just be easier if he wasn’t interfering with that when things are so raw still.
Please, please just forgive yourself immediately, do it now, for sending a few work emails that you recognise as your own fishing. You’re human, you’re in the aftermath of an emotionally confusing but inevitably toxic situation, it’s no biggie and you’re very aware of what you’re up to.
If you can access some compassion and pity for yourself – and then comfort yourself (I sometimes physically hug myself when I am going/have been going through emotional pain)- this can really help with staying NC and staying with yourself. There can be small floods of grief which can be stayed with for short periods of time – as you give yourself a cuddle and maybe a rock. It’s a moment of self validation and soothing where you have recognised and felt some grief and, what do you know!, come through that particular moment still alive and intact. You won’t have any thought of contacting him and wanting his validation for a time after a moment like that. You’ve validated yourself and your feelings so you won’t feel like you need him to.
There’s a lot to grieve. You’re grieving something so ungrounded and ephemeral and toxic-the intense, desperate emotions, the great sex, the connection, your dreams of leaving your husband, him leaving his wife so you can be together – and all of that sullied by the layers of deception – your self deception, your deception of your husband and a strange woman you don’t know – his wife – and absolutely, his deception of you. That’s a hell of a lot. And added to that you’ve now got his recent behaviour during your work trip that tells you how little he cares for *you*, the real, feeling you. He cares about satisfying his impulses with no thought to how that hurts you. His continued selfishness doesn’t earn him the head space you’re giving him now. But it hurts bad. Try to come back to you – give yourself the sympathy, compassion and comfort you need and that you do, really, really do deserve.
lizzp,
Thank you for your continued support, I shed a few tears reading your response, I really do appreciate your feedback.
I am trying to extricate myself from the work situation, its difficult and a bit impractical, but it is necessary. He has ambushed me twice today by calling using a phone with no caller ID. In fact he’s just emailing and IMing as though we are just great work mates with no other history. I had to tell him today outright that if he loves me as much as he says he does then the kindest thing he can do is to leave me alone. I hated having to say it, it was hard, but I feel so relieved too. I know I have to stick at it and get into my NC again. I think over the last week he’d managed to make me feel bad for going NC, and my fear of rejection just has me rolling over.
I love your tips about self comfort, it sounds great. I also have a lovely 2yr old I can cuddle whenever I like. Actually I figure if I get bad at focusing on me I can focus on her.
So, time will tell. He’ll probably crawl out from under his stone in about two weeks and I’ll try and make sure I’ve done enough work on myself to ignore him.
I’m concerned for Rags Mom, she’s gone radio silent on us, can’t be good news – not real good news anyway.
Or read old articles, find something else to give you a rush/a hit of the love drug, because really that’s what we’re looking for.
Hmmm. Or … you could get some help from a proper therapist about your addiction to this drug, and how it’s made you forget things like decency, honesty, integrity, boundaries, self-respect, your career and your future?
You chose exactly the right term for it, Leanne – ‘drug’. It’s NOT love, but it IS like a drug, and it IS addictive, and so you need to treat it like an addiction.
Anyone who’s had a major addiction knows that cold turkey is the quickest way to go. OK, so it’s hard, and painful, and you might feel sick. It might also take more than one go at it – this is very common with some drugs – but eventually the person can and does get off the drug if they will just CUT IT OUT.
The way to stop, is to stop. Hence, NC.
Once you’ve gotten into NC/cold turkey, often a lot of things become clearer to you: your loneliness, your vulnerability, your family history, and the other pressures that led you into seeking the drug in the first place.
Then you can start addressing these. Or, you can go back to the drug, and turn into a sad and isolated person again.
Colly- This is my first time reading through all the comments in weeks. I’m in awe of your growing strength! When you first started posting, your comments had a dark, defeated tone to them. Now you’re calling others to task for not following through with NC, you’re annoyed with the MM for his continually bugging you, you’re annoyed with yourself for letting him…do you see how huge this is?? Did you even know you had all this strength in you? The fact that you’re frustrated with yourself for stumbling is exciting news because it shows that you know you’ve got some guts in you! 🙂 YAY! 🙂 GO COLLY!! 🙂
Great comment Rosie, I second that.
Thank you Rosie. You casting a light on what I have achieved has really made me smile. I need to get better at doing this for myself rather than the constant negative self talk.
Ugh, I feel really stupid now too. I wish these self-flagelating thoughts would subside! All I can think about is that he is downstairs feeling so happy with his life and his decision and I am a big loser for being in love with him and wanting to be in touch still (when really I don’t).
Why is it so hard to remember what jerks these idiots are?? I think my MM was very much an immature prick, but I let him be. And now these are the consequences. I feel like I just want him to email or be in contact so that I can shut him down again and feel validated that he doesn’t think I’m an idiot pining away for him. How to get past this?? Ugh. Continuing NC is the only way I guess.
I feel just the same Leanne, its horrible. Worst thing for me is I still actually have to have contact with him for work at the moment. He’s being super professional this week, its his cycle, he’ll be this way for a week, then disappear for a week, then start poking for attention, I ignore it, then he blows hot and starts up a drama. Last week I fell for the drama, next time I won’t.
Oh, I need . . . I don’t even know what. Sending out a numb, sadsadsad message in hopes that someone will hear me and hold me in their hand tonight.
Today I got a message from him telling me that he’s getting married. That he is committing all of himself to his current relationship, and that he never would have known how to love and care for her the way he does if it wasn’t for all I’d taught him. That he hopes I wish them well. That this time he’s going to do it right and give her all of himself.
Smileyface.
There is a lot to the story, all the ins and outs, all the details, details, details, but in a lot of ways, there’s really not much to tell that’s different from everyone else’s story. And I’m a firm believer that whenever you’re telling a story with a lot of details and “context” and “another thing”s, that really all that noise means there’s a devastatingly simple truth the teller doesn’t want to admit. Which in this case is . . . he didn’t care about me. He messed with my head, and told me lies, because he could. I signed up for it. Not once, but twice.
What I don’t get, gentle reader (and I call you gentle reader not because I’m clevah, Darling–but because I’m on the ropes tonight, punch drunk, hoping you’ll be gentle with me even as you dispense all your tough love and no-nonsense kickassery), is WHY. Why would he tell me all that? If he felt he needed to tell me that he was engaged, fine. He probably wanted to get to me before someone else told me for fear I’d tell his intended that two weeks after he started dating her, he started pursuing me. I get it. Manage me so I keep my mouth shut.
But why tell me I’m the reason he’s having such a great relationship, and oh, yeah, he still loves me, his friend.
Why would someone do that? I’m really asking.
I feel so utterly alone.
Spanish Jackie,
Your post punched me in the guts, I’m right there with you as I was told pretty much the same thing last week – apart from the getting married part as he already is. That he made the right choice by leaving me and sticking with her, I gave him the greatest gift, that he’ll always love me. Horrible isn’t it?
I’m not sure what the motivation is for them saying this stuff, I think they really believe we should be happy that we let them bleed us dry until there was nothing left. Or do they somehow enjoy rubbing our noses in it? Not sure, really not.
What I do know is that I wouldn’t ever say anything like that to someone, its unpleasant and disrespectful in my eyes. It tells us why these guys don’t deserve any more of us.
Spanish Jackie – so sorry that you are having to deal with this. My insights are – that he is a little bit evil ! Sadistic and rotten…to be nc with forever !
Why put in the knife into you so deep,twist and twist, and care nothing for how you will have to deal with all this.
He wants to cause effect, he wants attention, he is still playing a role, in the THIRD RATE action movie of his sad life.
A decent human being, would have not gone about it in this way. A decent human being, would have cared how it would impact on you. All he cares about is him. He doesn’t know love, he doesn’t know showing up, he just wants what is best for him. His relationship with his intended all started out on a dubious and double crossing foot, and that can’t bare well for the future.
This man will never change his spots.
This is a different person from the one you posted about above? The one you despise and feel icy contempt for?
The very one. I’m one of those amazing people who can hold two opposing thoughts in her head at the same time. Makes me messy sometimes. Ninety percent of the time I feel icy contempt. When he punches me in the gut I feel pain, as anyone would. Why do you ask?
Spanish Jackie, I asked because I was surprised. I thought it may have been another man. He must have really pulled some major manipulation to lure you out of your NC. He’s an a*hole. Of course any one would feel pain. He’s an AC of high caliber and has hurt you and conned you twice, cheated on you and now you feel that punched in the gut feeling with this news, Sounds like his coup de gras. Clearly he has no idea about how his actions and words might affect another, he doesn’t care. That hurts. Hopefully with time to recover you’ll be able to slowly bring your focus onto you again, go total NC and move forward. You won’t feel so alone then, IMO, or at least less alone.
Spanish,sorry, I can see now from others’ comments that you weren’t NC with him. I read your post on the last article that you were/would be deleting his messages in the interests of getting yourself back after his terrible and cruel treatment. His knife in back turning message must have been terrible – what a wake up call and reminder to you of the cruel and totally self-interested person he is.
Sounds like you have friends in common, or move in the same social circles? I feel like the only way for you to get him off your back and out of your head would be total NC. He’s a boundary buster and will continue to be – you’ve said that yourself – best to block his number from this point onwards I reckon. I like Used’s suggestions about how to deal with other people who might talk about him, who maybe view him as the best thing since sliced bread. Don’t engage in any conversation about him. I agree with what everyone else has said here about why he’s told you you’re the reason for what he claims is his current ‘great relationship’. As an aside you know, and he knows himself, that he is no more capable of a mutual and respectful relationship than a small piece of pond scum. He’s a liar – he lies to other people and he lies to himself. His future wife (if it even gets that far) will learn about this too. From the way you describe him, I can’t imagine he will not cheat on her, it’s part of his MO.
You will be so much better off once he’s out of your head space for good. The pain? Really there’s no avoiding it in the process of moving forward. As Etherelda says soothe yourself, be kind to yourself, take care of yourself.
he used her the same way i was used: to get back into the good graces of his then-ex, now-wife.
Spanish Jackie,
Because he is an immature and selfish man. What grown up man says such things to a woman he had a relationship with? And why??
I can only imagine how it hurts.
I certainly would not like to be in his wife’s place!!!
A man who says such things is irresponsible, self-centered, and has no empathy.
I don’t think someone like this can love. He might be in love with his future wife. I don’t think a person like this can sustain care and respect long-term.
Sending you my support and even though it doesn’t feel like it now for you, you are lucky not to be with him. He showed his colors.
Sofia, I share exactly your sentiments about this situation! Wise comments!
Thank you, Sofia. I know you are right. Meanwhile, I think I have given enough of my time and attention and energy to this swamp rat. I am going back to my life. I hope I can be as much a support to you and others here on BR as you all have been to me. Thank you so, so much.
SJ, this is just another form of “we can still be friends” in which the person who is breaking up with you needs to think of themselves as a good guy and wants to avoid feeling any necessary remorse. Look at what a good person I am, how I will give you this last ‘gift’ of niceness (“you are the reason I’m now a wonderful person”), how magnanimous I am, how I’m thinking of your feelings right now, what a generous person I am for paying you this compliment, how happy we’ll both be to wrap this up in a pink ribbon and move on… (and I get to come out of our relationship in the permanent one-up position because now you think I’m a prince.)
All bullshit.
Of course, he could also be trying to stick it to you in a nasty way, as Ethelreda suggested, out of anger. Or flaunting it in front of your face as a form of overcompensation as many insecure people do: “See, someone else wants me, nyah, nyah.” You are a better judge of his motives than we are.
In any case, STOP being in contact with him from this point on. He can only mess with your head if you let him.
Wiser: so true. (Where the heck are the “Like” buttons around here?!)
I also wonder if it’s nothing more than his way of keeping me from exacting revenge. His way of keeping me in line.
Okay, confession time: I have considered getting revenge. It is one of the reasons I have been so nice to this guy. I could, at any time, pull the plug on his life, and he’d never know it was me because there are lots of women he’s hurt. That’s what happens when you’re messing with lots of women all at the same time: you don’t know who is going to be a problem in the future. His path is littered with the hearts of scores of women he’s screwed and screwed over.
Revenge. I don’t think about it often, or seriously, but it’s lovely to daydream about when he’s busting my boundaries and being manipulative and nasty like he is right now.
It makes me feel like I have a secret super power. Poor boy doesn’t even suspect. Beyond a certain point, he REALLY doesn’t want to tick me off.
I won’t seek revenge though, because I’d only be harming myself.
But I could. And I’d get away with it because for once I turned the tables and set HIM up.
And that feels pretty powerful.
I can sympathise, my ex who I have known for 23 yeas, together for 17, engaged for 2 is now marrying someone he has known or almost 3 years. They are the same apparently, this is why the whole ‘I want to find someone like me’, ‘my equal’ makes me laugh. He never wanted to commit fully to me.
I can’t help but to think it is for the wrong reasons but that’s his problem to find out!
It’s never nice when you are the one left behind, my dating history since ha been a bit of a nightmare, I believe it will happen when things are right with me, no use forcing things.
Cherry, it (love) always happens when you aren’t looking. After you do the work on yourself and figure out what drives you and your choices, you can make positive changes so that you don’t repeat past mistakes. That allows you to come to new relationship whole. You will naturally project that health and wholeness out to the world, and will attract that to yourself in turn, and voila! Sending you so much good ju-ju.
Spanish Jackie, he is really manipulative. What a piece of work, telling you how he’s sooooooo grateful for all you taught him, but now he’s ready for the Big Time (which, by the way, you won’t get because now he really WILL give his all to this new fiance), and oh, still he loves you, his friend.
Try to spell “confusing” and that really describes it! It really comes across like Ethelreda says, and others have said, that he is trying to come across like the good guy, the “sensitive” guy. Oh, but he still wants to keep you on the line, just a little, with this “love” stuff. Love is an action, not meaningless words.
And if he told you lies, you can pretty much be 100% sure that he will continue telling lies, to this new woman, others. As you said, “Because he can.” I really pity this new woman; she has no idea what a toxic pit he is. Imagine being her, and coming across his email to you …. wow. Certainly he is not the kind of person I would want as a “friend.”
And my observation is: It’s really easy to get married. The hard part is to stay in, and build, a relationship where you have integrity and commitment, honesty and the intimacy Nat is referring to. I wouldn’t rush to judgment that he’s suddenly “found the light” with this new person. He’s still who he is. And you have dodged a bullet, even tho you hurt as much as if he shot you with that bullet ….
Nina, it’s just so incredible to me that there are people out there who are so hollow that they need constant attention by ANY MEANS NECESSARY, with no regard for the the people they hurt. Up to and including following everything up with this latest message of hope for the future with his intended and (non-existent) love for me.
I remember one night we were being intimate right after he’d casually told me that if I didn’t want for myself the amazing relationship that he and this other woman had between them, then I was “stupid”. Kinda just tossed it out there while we were lying there together. I started having a slow motion panic attack, is the only way I can describe what I was feeling. And five minutes later he starts to undress me and tells me that the thing he wanted more than anything else from me was . . . are you ready? . . . my whole heart.
Pathological. You’re right, Nina. I danced with the devil and lived to tell the tale.
the way you went nc before, you played his game back on him. you did so well.
remember what i said, ladies, was it last week? that the way spanish went nc, she’d be holding him responsible for his behavior/actions during the relationship?
he could just go on with his life without this message to spanish. then, if spanish saw him out there being a “better man” for someone else (whomever else)(this woman or whomever), she wouldn’t care (as much…if at all).
but here we have the guy rubbing it all in her nose…in a message…one that she could play back.
why does he do this, do you suppose?
BECAUSE HE IS A SELFISH MO-FO.
first, he is taunting her with her own game. he is saying, “look how responsible i am for my actions now, how i am treating someone else better, how i did learn my lesson! and all because of you.”
it’s all part of him feeling better about how he treated you badly, while trying to wipe the slate clean. so he won’t (inconveniently) feel uncomfortable when he next sees you.
so let’s get this straight: he never learned on his own how to behave correctly, at all, until you came along and taught him?
you didn’t date for very long. were you always a behavior-tutor to him when you dated? were you constantly trying to raise him from the ground up?
i doubt it.
but, if you did try to make him a “better man”, then let this be a lesson to you, to everyone, that no woman should do this.
you didn’t lose anything, anyways, but a jerk.
second, he wants you to break nc. he wants you to call & congratulate him. do not break nc. do not call/contact him.
HE WANTS YOU TO MAKE A MOVE BECAUSE HE CAN’T BECAUSE HE’S ENGAGED NOW.
he wants you to call & congratulate him. then he can feel o.k. about how he treated you…especially about how he treated you in the SECOND go-’round. why? because he is marrying the woman he dated just before and just after you. he doesn’t want HER, of all people, to think you have hard feelings. then SHE’D be reminded of how much of a jerk he is. remember, SHE TOOK HIM BACK (AT LEAST) ONE SECOND TIME, TOO.
so he hates himself and/or has no self-respect.
(and he may want you to hate yourself, or lose your self-respect, too, by the way.)
do not talk about him, at all, with anyone. when his names comes up, ignore ignore ignore and/or walk away, with something else to occupy you immediately.
he could have had a friend tell you the news.
but here he adds his little quip of “thanks so much, for all of your help! you really are as magnanimous as we all previously thought.”
but he never treated you as someone magnanimous; right? he never was respectful, as a rule; right?
he is a grade-a selfish mofo.
you don’t owe him anything. avoid him. ignore him. never talk to him again in your life.
and, boy, will he want your approval. he wants to be “Anointed” again. as the americans say. DON’T ANOINT HIM.
what a bastard. very manipulative indeed.
So much good stuff in here, Used!
“so let’s get this straight: he never learned on his own how to behave correctly, at all, until you came along and taught him?
(Right?!?)
so he hates himself and/or has no self-respect.
(and he may want you to hate yourself, or lose your self-respect, too, by the way.)
(Oooo. Right.)
do not talk about him, at all, with anyone. when his names comes up, ignore ignore ignore and/or walk away, with something else to occupy you immediately.
(Amen, sister. Great advice.)
he could have had a friend tell you the news.
(Yeah, but then he wouldn’t have had the pleasure of telling me himself, right?)
but here he adds his little quip of “thanks so much, for all of your help! you really are as magnanimous as we all previously thought.”
but he never treated you as someone magnanimous; right? he never was respectful, as a rule; right?
(YEAH! RIGHT!)
he is a grade-a selfish mofo.
(YEAH! MOFO!!! *guiltygiggle*)
you don’t owe him anything. avoid him. ignore him. never talk to him again in your life.
(I won’t if I can help it, trust me.)
(And: MOFO!!! Just couldn’t resist.)
and, boy, will he want your approval. he wants to be “Anointed” again. as the americans say. DON’T ANOINT HIM.
what a bastard. very manipulative indeed.
(If you only knew what an understatement that is . . . he’s pathological.)
Thank you for every bit of this, Used. Thank you.
SJ – you are not alone. I wish I could hug you right now. I have had thoughts that my ex will email me to tell me he got engaged because he would think him telling me before anyone else is the right thing to do but I don’t want to know period.
This guy is scum. He only cares about himself and I think he wrote that email to make himself feel better because he knows what a piece of crap he is. I feel bad for his fiancee. I hope that she sees him for who he truly is before she walks down that aisle.
I think he’s trying to make you jealous or at the very least get a reaction out of you. Then he can sit back and be all, “Yep, she still loves me. Damn, boy, you still got it!” Raging AC.
Spanish Jackie (I like Pinter too, by the way) – are you the lady who gave her EUM the beef about how you needed special time because he had been such a special person, etc, and that’s why you needed to go NC?
If it is, I’d say you hurt him more effectively than perhaps you thought. And he’s now trumped your play.
If it’s any consolation, the ‘marriage’ may just be an engagement that never comes off, and which he’s rushed into because he wants to hurt you. Or it may be imaginary. Until the actual church organ plays the Wedding March, it ain’t over.
But soothe yourself, dear SJ, and be kind to yourself for a bit. This is still the Universe telling you to get the hell out of Dodge with this man. You and he are NOT good for each other, and it’s time you moved on.
exactly. this is what i thought, too: he is trumping her play, as you say so well.
spanish went nc feeling what she should feel for him: contempt. hew knows he did wrong; he doesn’t know what she feels. BUT HE SHOULD KNOW.
his message tells us that he DOES KNOW.
the very fact that he DID leave a message. BECAUSE HE DIDN’T HAVE TO.
if this is the woman he will marry, he doesn’t want to start off on a bad foot. he doesn’t want his future wife, who herself took him back a second time, being reminded via spanish’s ignoring him, that he is a grade-a jerk.
also, he wants spanish to fall into her own trap, being the trap that she set for him. he wants her to have REGRET. wherever she may find it. meantime, he wants to wipe the slate clean. be the good guy. yada yada yada.
if he doesn’t walk down the aisle with this woman, then he is FOR SURE trying to trump spanish at her own game, trying to use spanish’s game against her: “see, i am owning up! i am a man! but for someone else. are you jealous now? aren’t you going to call & congratulate me, darn it?! you don’t have to think that this would be breaking nc, because i am marrying someone else–we’ll just be calling each other on a friendly basis.”
see, this guy doesn’t want to look bad to his group/community/whatever, either. just like spanish.
bottom line is “men” like this don’t know their heads from their asses.
not your problem!
and why would he marry THE-VERY-FIRST-GIRL-HE-DATED-AFTER-YOU-AFTER-JUST-HAVING-LEARNED-ALL-OF-THE-LESSONS-OF-LIFE-FROM-YOU?
ridiculous. unless they dated for many many years, & you were sort of a mentor/mother-figure to him.
sounds like he needs his mommy right now. and a pacifier.
“Sounds like he needs his mommy right now. and a pacifier.”
Ha! So TRUE, Used.
Meanwhile, I hope his penis falls off. #devilhorns
Sounds like you know your stuff, Used. Which means you’ve been through the ringer with your own AC. I’m sorry about that, but it sounds like you’re still a killerdiller in spite of it all, and that makes me smile. Thank you, Used, for making me laugh and say aloud to my computer screen more than once, “Yeah, that’s RIGHT!” I am so grateful to have found you and everyone else on BR. Reading the stories and comments and advice has kept me sober and sane, and I am suffering much less today than I would otherwise have been.
i dated the same exact type of ac. not for very long. only a few months. he acted the same way, had the same dating history.
the irony of it all is that he respected people like me (women with self-respect and class, like you), and wanted me (he didn’t want things to end), but, at the same time (at least when we dated), didn’t know what he wanted (he didn’t know his head from his ass), and, later, went back to the woman he had previously abandoned, a woman who stated her demands, but who always took him back when he manipulatively made his way back to her. now he has daughters (ha!) (there is a God) and REALLY wants the slate clean. he has tried talking to me (he smiled at me with his wife at his side) via trying to get me to make the first move (you see, God forbid he be the first one to be nice, and talk to me, first!) (he never tried to be nice pre-daughters, btw). i ignored both of them. before children, his wife didn’t want me near him (not that i tried) (once, when passing them, i smiled at them, to acknowledge that they were there).
point is, you are dealing with an overgrown baby/mama’s boy. growing up he never made decisions for himself, never learned to act with integrity.
i did exact revenge on him. he deserved it. he got it.
i won’t get into the details of how. this is a public forum. let’s just say that men who kiss and tell (and that is all we did, kiss) and try to make the girl who didn’t use sex as a weapon (like his wife did) look like a desperate loser will be made to look like a desperate loser themselves. even when they are married. and even at a public place, for all to see.
just like all-to-see saw that we dated, i got treated badly, i got “told on” for making out with him, etc. etc. and despite how i dumped him magnificently.
see, he exacted revenge by kissing and telling. so he opened the door.
this guy you know, he wants to be able to tell his wife, if she ever finds out you two dated, “see spanish over there, she wants me. she always comes after me FIRST.”
he wanted you, but knew he couldn’t have you. he like to think that the self-respecting woman wants him, though. but he wants (to marry) the woman who WILL put up with his b.s.
this guy is pathological. and def a misogynist, on some level.
Oh, Ethelreda, I love that you caught the Pinter reference. (But of course you did.)
I am that woman. The woman who broke things off with my “special” fella by telling him everything he wanted to hear. To be completely honest, I WAS under his spell. The article you shared on limerence explained so much to me about why my feelings were so strong and why I was having such a difficult time breaking free. And oh, he was textbook. The lovebomb, then the constant hot and cold, the nasty things he’d say out of the blue to devalue me, the triangulation, all of it. It was all one big manipulation that worked brilliantly to get and keep me hooked.
It took me a long while to figure out how to get free in a way that wouldn’t cause nightmares and panic attacks.
Nightmares.
And panic attacks.
Oh, but I was having such a great time.
I had tried a couple of times previously to break things off, but couldn’t get any traction on my “sobriety”.
Telling him that I loved him and announcing the NC gently was the only way I could leave without worrying that he would subtly and not-so-subtly trash my name in our town. I was also in such a strange state of anxiety about what he would think of me (he had groomed me to need his validation) that my NC approach was the only way I could put a spin on it that would offer some emotional protection while not making me a target for nasty, manipulative comments and gaslighting tactics around my being crazy or unlovable or mistaken or whatever. He had no counter move because I wasn’t being unreasonable or aggressive. I was merely admitting my “love”. I told him that every time I didn’t respond it meant I still loved him and needed more time, but that I was out here, wishing him well. He was happy because every time I didn’t respond to his messages, he got that automatic ego stroke. It kept him satisfied and there was nothing more for him to do.
I still think he’s completely, selfishly happy knowing I fell for him despite the fact that he never truly cared about me. I didn’t and don’t care if I gave him ego strokes at the end because I just wanted to get free and stop being so miserable.
My bestie said to me last night as we were talking all this out, “Yeah, you feel pretty rotten right now. Just let this feeling be a reminder of how you ALWAYS used to feel when you were involved with him.”
So, so true.
Thank you for your care and kindness, Ethelreda. Truly.
Hey SJ – it’s the fillies. They’re very highly strung.
Again, I am credited with more wisdom than I possess – it wasn’t me that shared on limerence, but it’s an excellent thing to know about anyway. Everyone here should read about it; it answers all those nagging questions.
A wonderful day will come when you not only don’t care about what he thinks any more, but about what anyone thinks. This will be the day you go outside the house in what looks like your pajamas – not because you’re clinically depressed, but just because you can.
If I could put curlers in as well, I’d do it. I water the roses in my PJs some mornings on the weekend. It’s very liberating, not giving a rat’s arse.
I wanted to leave a little note to say thank you all for your words. Your time and care helps, and I am grateful. I’m across the pond so it’s time for me to leave for my nine to five, but I’ll respond fully tonight. Sending simple joy and peace to each of you today.
Spanish Jackie, I really liked your post last week. You showed you were in control. Now do you think he has ‘bested’ you somehow and perhaps you feel… shame? Like you crowed too soon? I think you crowed at just the right time, I am impressed by how you handled it before and nothing he does now changes that past event.
You ask WHY — and I shall answer!
most likely because hes an a-hole and has no self-awareness or class; to tell you he’s married is a decent thing to do, potentially, though telling a mutual friend to tell you is also ok so that you are not taken by surprise. To say he has you to thank?! And that ‘thanks for letting me be a shit to you because I intend to do way better with this one’…. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha… thats what you should be thinking. That a person could be so tacky, and manipulative. Now, I know you were manipulative too in some way, and you just dont know how you got to him. Maybe he really does think you’re pining for him, and this is his way of ‘letting you down easy’ or lining you up for future ego strokes, or indicating that your love for him wasn’t misplaced because hey another woman loves him too…
He is also absolving himself – he failed with you because he didn’t give of himself fully and now he will. Whatever, thats just wishful thinking on his part – he’s probably scared spitless that he’s getting married and trying to be mr. feelings by reaching out to you so he doesnt feel like the bleep that he knows he is. He messed up his last relationship and he’s probably afraid of messing up the next one – this isn’t about you at all.
Anyway, scratch my analysis of him. All that matters is that you feel awful, and I’m sorry for that. This sucks it does, but you were not meant for him or he for you, and you got out in a classy way. Who he is with now is immaterial. You will hurt about it, probe those feelings, think about it – are you lonely? unloved? – that has nothing to do with him since you dont want his companionship or his love. This has changed nothing really in your life, you are who you are still. Rock on Spanish Jackie.
Suki,
You have hit on something with your last paragraph re probing own feelings with sureness that some inadequacies are murking underneath there (lonely, unloved, fear, abandonment…) Mine were father issues growing up and once I sorted them out (consistently in therapy for over a year and still going) with NC in place my outlook now is a lot more healthier and getting better each and every day. I’m just attacking life with new vigour now it’s not funny lol. It is not so much that I am a new person rather I was not given the opportunity to grow into a proper human being. This was due, for the most part, unhealthy factors surrounding my upbringing. I am playing catch-up now which is not easy although I am very happy and pushing myself forward (especially of mind in unlearning/challenging ideologies I thought were normal and clearly were not) in now a nurturing environment I missed out on growing up.
Spanish Jackie will always be steadfast (naturally loving) which is brilliant although it has knocked her for a six and a lot clouded she is to now be that to herself. I hope she does do the probing thing to get her through this time and for personal long-term gain. The fickle one (changing frequently, especially as regards one’s loyalties or affection) is really building his foundation on sand…he won’t be able to stand firmly on his own two feet no matter who he is with. As I mentioned above in response to Cherry, idiots yes in human form as EUM are pretty much children who have yet to take up the mantle of adulthood.
Marriage is a completely whole new ball game with a lot of responsibilities and realism involved plus a raft of other things in tow, some people unfortunately cannot live up to it and so will bail or do a bit of something-something on the side. The fickle one’s all-giving will be insufficient given his sand complexion above.
You know what’s interesting, Gina? His GF tried to get free of him about a year ago. Broke it off. There were several days of her telling him it was over, and him begging for another chance. And through it all, I had two thoughts: 1) Go Girl! Know what you know! Trust your gut! Your instincts are spot on! 2) Oh, Geez. I don’t want to be responsible for this guy. In the end, he talked her out of breaking up with him, and in the next breath asked me to come over that very night. I was so disappointed in her, and so mad at her for not doing what was best for herself. And now she’s going to marry him.
I still think all of those reactions and feelings around her trying to get free are very telling. I wasn’t in it for the reasons I thought I was in it, and I was aware of it, and yet, in the end, I still wanted to matter to this guy! What-the-what?!? If I’m honest, I have to admit to myself that I was emotionally unavailable as well. There’s a reason I chose this guy. I’m still trying to figure it all out. So many layers.
A
Suki, there is something about the way you express yourself that feels like a warm blanket wrapped around my shoulders. You make me feel like…”All is Well, and All Will Be Well, and All Manner of Things Will be Well”. Thank you for the warm blanket! 🙂
And: you hit it right on the head: I am lonely and feel unloved. That’s truly what I was able to realize and sit with last night, painful as it was. He’s going to be married, true, but my being knocked back was not because of that so much as it is because of my loneliness. Truth be told, deep down I know I wouldn’t want him if he DID want me. So, brilliant girl that you are, you have made me see that his news changes nothing essential. I am alone. I am lonely. That’s about me. And I will be okay.
P.S. Rock on with your own bad self, Suki.
Spanish Jackie, he did it to be mean. He’s a drama king and his intent is to make you feel hurt. Been in your shoes before. It is as if a man can’t let you walk away undestroyed. For reasons I don’t understand, they want to hurt you. They’re the boys who pull wings off of butterflies.
The best revenge is to say “glad it worked out for you” should you ever have to talk to him again. It will kill him to think he did not hurt you with his words.
Elgie R…yes boys who pull wings off of butterflies …
When I was in a similar situation to Spanish Jackie,although I bumped into them by complete accident, just before Xmas, I actually told them how much they had upset me and expressed the real hurt, then went back total no contact …either way, if it is forever and you mean it , they do suffer
Oy. I had written a hugely witty, wise and warm-hearted response in Portuguese and then lost it because I hit the wrong button! *pantpantpantpant*
Okay. I’m kidding about the Portuguese part. There wasn’t any Portuguese.
Well, okay. It wasn’t witty or wise either. But it WAS warm-hearted, and I’ll bust the chops of anyone who says differently.
Okay. Where was I? Elgie and Louise, you are right. Not reacting is the only power I have, because he’s looking for a reaction. I have the ultimate control in this situation. Because I control what he “sees” (by minimizing his access to me, choosing my [non]reactions carefully], I control his perception. The brand, if you will. The only message I want to send to him is that I’m living a quiet, authentic life and have moved on. Anything more than that is a trap; Trying to prove something to him would mean I was looking for validation on some level, or looking to try to hurt him (which means I’m still enmeshed), or trying to matter to him, and we all know I don’t matter to him. I’ve made my peace with that. I matter to myself.
He told me in his message that it was because of my influence and care that he was able to take this next step with her, and that I shouldn’t be surprised if he popped up in the future to seek my wisdom and honesty for the good of his marriage. He ended by saying he hoped I would wish them both good fortune. The insensitivity of his message was breathtaking.
I responded by offering my congratulations and telling him I wished them both the best. Everyone here at BR knows what a punch in the gut his news and insensitivity were, but I won’t give him the satisfaction of letting him see that. He doesn’t get my love anymore. He didn’t appreciate, honor or reciprocate it; he’ll have to go elsewhere for his ego strokes. I just want my emotional freedom, and for me, acting like a class act is the only way to divest myself of what can only be described as a toxic nightmare without regrets. A trick I always play with myself is to tell myself, Hey, Jackie, you’re going to get over this horror in time, so much so that you’re not even going to be able to remember what all the fuss was about, so how about cutting all the middle crazy stuff out and just behave now with an eye toward being ten years down the road and being able to look back at how you handled yourself with pride. I’m doing it for me, not for him. It’s hard though, because it hurts.
Meanwhile, I’m saying all this not because I think I have all the answers. These are just some little tricks that have helped me–some thoughts that have kept me sane. I hope my comments help anyone who needs to know that they are valuable, beautiful, and WONDER-ful.
“You is kind, you is smart, you is important.”
SJ, you are amazing. Keep up the good work.
You’re right about keeping an eye on the future. I actually don’t care what my last ex is doing. I rarely give him a thought now – and that was after five years of EUM drama, followed by a final merciful breakup about 18 months ago.
This, from someone who at her worst actually told him that he would have to put a restraining order on her because she would not part with him any other way. Yes. That was me. I own it.
NEVER AGAIN.
And I certainly don’t care about any of the other exes, especially the ones I parted with on bad terms. There’s just no point, otherwise you morph into an imploding bag of self-pity.
And I can’t do that, because I am too damn busy having a career, planning overseas travel, loving my close family members, doing stuff with my church, getting my eyelashes dyed, reading books on long lazy hot weekends on my beautifully cool bed in my redecorated house, learning to cook new things, walking briskly on my treadmill to counteract all those new things I learned to cook, petting my adored cat, going to secondhand bookshops, marking my nephew’s math homework, and being happy and at peace with who I am, excess pounds and occasionally unshaved legs and all.
Yay for you, Spanish Jackie! He is a first class a-hole who wants to “win” by destroying you, and you did not let him! (Love that movie line too.)
OMG – he even attempted to set you up for future pain with the may-need-your-advice-in-the-future line. He really is a piece of work, isn’t he, with his “I can’t let you go, I want to dangle my happiness in front of you forever!” move. Except that he isn’t happy. He’s so busy plotting future revenge that he is not living in his present. Which means he’s not really “there”, he is using her for his own evil plans.
yes, this is where he one-ups the guy i knew.
* spanish’s jerk is foreseeing. he never “knew not what he did.”
* he always had the control, and he always wants the control.
* he wants validation. from spanish. (see what he did after they were intimate together–this guy wants jackie’s love/attention, for many reasons, without reciprocating in full. he’d jump to have a one-night-stand with jackie, though. but he’d make it look like it was all HER idea. he is grooming her. i think he is a narcissit, btw.) he already has validation (for now) from the fiancee; he wants to keep it that way (hence the need to be Anointed again by spanish).
therefore, given the above, the huge necessity to block, go nc, and ignore, etc.
then he looks really bad to spanish’s social circle and community, etc. etc.
you can’t fool everyone all of the time!
Used, yes, if it’s all about him getting hits from his sources and keeping control of their availability-attaining a feeling that the source will be there should he need to tap in down the track (which does seem to be the case), then best case scenario is to stay away for good. People like this just continue to wreak havoc and destruction and pain on all who don’t/can’t morph for the sake of his gratification into his objects. He wants to transport himself back to the days of the Roman Empire and buy himself some slaves, or better yet, ancient Egypt where I’ve heard that upon the death of a person of rank their slaves were also required to die so as to attend to their masters in the after life! My advice to a person like this would be to start looking into the possibilities of time travel, start with a physics degree maybe.
they were raised being lied to. their mothers deluded them to think that they always were better than they are. they are insecure tools: you see, their mothers wanted 100% control, over them, too.
but they DO know what they are doing. all the time. from childhood.
they like the benefits of the “system.” they carry it over into their personal lives.
macho complex, harems, call it what you will–it’s all about insecurity, control, and (oftentimes) hatred of women (and the power they weild over men).
next time you know he’ll be at the same place as you, spanish, wear something very nice/flattering and make sure that one of your guy friends (or boyfriend) is a very physical one–make sure that he is huggy/touchy-feely. so this ac can see what others CAN have but he can NEVER have.
you’re welcome!
Dear Teatime
Thank you for your support!!;)Sorry if only now I have managed to reply your good wishes….Although I have been reading BR articles for the past 3 years I have never left any comments,partly because I always read them late at night,in bed,no light(yes I know….Food for thoughs before I sleep)
therefore I have to use my phone to type…..hence the spelling errors.And partly because I could identify myself in all of you….all differents yet all very similar stories.
What I have finally experienced is the power of support,being free to open myself and feeling understood…..Thank you Teatime and no matter what happens out there in the “dating jungle”,we should never doubt ourself,our worth and strengh…and this is what this comunity has constantly reminded me over the years
So….we learn to fold back faster than what we used to simply because we have learned to know ourself better.And what we want.
True love is beauty. Not external beauty, but the beauty you will experience when you allow your love — and your lover — to grow and expand.
Every romance must deepen or die. You either support and encourage one another’s growth as individuals, or you restrict and confine one another until there is no life left in your relationship.
And EUMs know how to restict us don’t they?
You get to choose.
We get to choose
So….next!!!
All the very best to you too 😉
I don’t know if anyone is still in this thread since Nat posted a new article, however, if anyone is around who remembers the “chemistry” guy who disappeared, I decided to write him a couple of days ago. I know I should not have, but I was so peeved that he’d asked me out repeatedly and then disappeared. So I basically said he should be careful about asking women out (3 times!) on a date if he isn’t sure he wants to follow through. Then I wished him luck. Well, this morning, to my astonishment, I got this. What do you think? It’s giving me a bad vibe:
Oh my! I wasn’t even aware that I was in a time crunch. I was literally just playing it safe and figured I wouldn’t pester you until I got back from LA. 🙁
I mean since you didn’t give me your number and or actual name still I thought playing the ‘I’m seriously not a stalker’ card might be best and wait a bunch of days (see: week). Honestly you left a great impression on me and I would love to take you out again for a second time once I return. Your Lady of the Night ways won’t work here. You can’t write me off for a few days that passed! You must see me again 🙂
Well I am still around and was actually looking for a follow up from your story. This I do because I learn from other peoples’ mistakes like everybody else, and because I’ve come to trust strongly my intuition and was curious to see if I was right (since intuition isn’t infallible). Diane I tell you this and I swear it’s the last time I insist: you mustn’t flush what you like. Otherwise nothing remains on the table. It looks to me like you are scared from the intense emotions that this guy stirs in you, so what I say is go but go cautiously. I don’t know what type of person he is, and I don’t say this to push you towards danger; but there is no other way, in my experience, to learn about other parts of yourself that are hidden, to you too, other than sorting them out while living them in real life. Best wishes, V.
Thanks, V. I will think it over. So far all of my friends are saying to give him one more chance. But I’m a little of the “fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me” mindset. I’ve actually dated guys like this before, and if they disappear and you give them another chance, it’s always just to give them another chance to disappear. Since he gave himself 8 days to mull over asking me out again (and with a prompt!) then I will give myself as much time as I like. But I appreciate the thought and input.
Diane, I think so too. Give him another chance. And try to control the entrance to your heart. I know it’s hard with such chemistry. Try your best. And keep us updated. I am very curious and hopeful he is someone worthy to discover.
Dianne, for what it’s worth, from what you describe, if I was in your place (but not being you!) I would be mentally flushing and moving on. To me he has not been behaving in a very emotionally available manner and he is a trigger for your reactions – what’s his game, what’s he thinking, if that was me I’d do different and so on – I’ll just send a quick email to tell him or suggest to him something about himself. Another of Nat’s useful sayings is “start as you wish to go on”. This is not a great start.
I guess if you really want to test his sincerity and emotional availability you could do something like this (but keep it short and sweet, it’s about keeping your own boundary and not taking on his assumptions and his stuff as something you are obliged to take on – you have actually met only once): So reply to his email with: “ok, hear from you when you get back, safe trip”. I wouldn’t engage in any more digital/email communications with him in the meantime that don’t pertain to organising next date. If he starts sending chatty type emails, asking questions etc I’d just say once – ‘Hi x, well we can talk about all that next time we meet, get in touch when you’re back so we can organise”. If he is sincere, he will do so.
One question though, how come he doesn’t know your real name? Have to admit that if I am actually meeting someone in RL I would certainly find it extremely odd if they did not disclose their real name during the date.
Hi lizzp, I’ll respond with more detail to everyone in awhile, but just to answer that one question about my name. I’m a writer and I am ALL over the internet. I also have a very unique name. If you plug just my first name into Google, you basically have my entire life. I find it unfair that someone I’ve just met and know for an hour or two would know everything there is to know about me right away, while I’m still feeling around in the dark about someone. So I always tell people that until I know you a bit better, I am giving a false name. If someone isn’t good with that, then they can move on. Literally, someone could easily find out where I work (address) and also have a plethora of information about me that they would be getting out of context. There is no discovery period with me. A quick Google search is all anyone needs. And I would like people to get to know me as me a little bit in the beginning, although I know I can’t control that forever. I usually tell guys on the second or third date depending on the vibe I get. I don’t lie about anything about myself — and that includes my age tho I’m at the age when pretty much every other female I know is shaving off a few years.
To be clear, “Diane” isn’t my real name.
Diane,
I would stay with the bad vibe you are getting as instinct normally wins out in the end. The mindset you mentioned too has been born from experiences of past guys similar to this one so I wouldn’t undervalue this now.
If the traveller had responded with all that content prior to his leaving then I would have given it another round of sure we’ll meet up then and continued on with my life in the meanwhile. This may show a future pattern if you wish to pursue this i.e. leaving without leaving any courtesy call/card/email as this sounds like on.his.terms.only.with.good.excuses.and.charming.words.always.on.hand sort of deal here.
Nat mentioned in a past post to never wait for a guy to make the decision for you/when it involves you. Best to make up your mind and take it from there on your own terms as you do have the wisdom of mindset and vibe to do what is best for you now.
I too got a bad vibe with red flags clearly visible from reading his content. I’m with lizzp (response below) on this one as she has pretty much detailed what I have summarised above.
You have wished him luck so I would leave it at.
Lizzp response above rather than below.
Yep, Gina, that’s exactly the type of vibe I got. At best, a poor communicator, at worst, EUM. I do NOT prefer to spend my precious life analyzing guys I’ve only known for an hour or two, but since this is BR and we are all here to learn lessons and one of those is to spot red flags before getting deeply involved (isn’t that why we are all here? we saw those flags but didn’t know what they were and didn’t flush early enough?) then I’ll do a little analysation here.
1) By his age (supposedly 35) he should know the difference between “hi, I’m still here and still interested” behavior and “stalking” behavior. The fact that he somehow equates answering my last email (which merely asked him how his week was going) with potential “stalking” behavior is laughable at best. 2) He never asked for my cell number [not that I would have given it] and he knew the reason I wasn’t giving him my real name [see above] neither of which had to do with perceiving him as a “stalker” so that doesn’t fly. 3) I don’t like the way he turned it around on me. A simple apology and an “Sorry I screwed up but would like to see you again” would have gone a lot further with me and would have shown me he can take accountability. I don’t want a future of “Well I acted like an AC because YOU did x, y, z” which my ex EUM was a master of. 4) This is just me, but that little bit at the end where he says I MUST see him again — my ex EUM was like that. Kind of “jokey” bossy. At first it’s kind of charming, who doesn’t like a guy who takes charge? But then you realize it’s selfishness run through a charm machine.
Reasons I might give him one more chance: Hell, I was actually attracted to him and had chemistry with him! I’ve been on the market for THREE years and that hasn’t happened. I’m a big believer that people can be a little rough out of the gate before they realize each other’s wants and need and I’m generally willing to give people a second chance, but not a third. I’m still trying to totally shake ex EUM out of my system (anyone who has followed my story knows that I’m still a tad susceptible to him) and this guy might do the trick even if it means just a couple weeks of obsessing and then being disappointed. However, I have no plans to exchange one EUM for another. He’s younger than me and probably accustomed to younger women who, honestly, seem to have zero boundaries from what I can tell. I have talked to lots of millennials who believe it is perfectly acceptable to pull disappearing acts and who are even entirely against talking on the phone to get to know someone (they ONLY text). That just may be what he’s used to and is following those particular rules and needs to be a tad reschooled. (Not that I want to be anyone’s teacher, mind you, but I’m not exactly finding a 50-year-old I’m into).
Conclusion: I will wait and see how I feel. He wasn’t in any hurry to nail down a second date, so I’m not going to be in any hurry to either accept or reject.
Diane, Regarding the name thing, I was genuinely just wondering how come as it is unusual. What you say there clears that up. I would modify what I said above to say I would find it extremely odd unless given a reason that made sense to me and I’m sure your reason does make perfect sense. I wish you enjoyment going forward in your dating, no matter if this one comes to a longer period of discovery or not.
oh dear, I posted this just before your response, came up to my question. Thanks for the clarification.
I didn’t answer him and he just came back today and asked me out again. I replied with rather firm language that I’m looking for someone who can let me know in a consistent and timely manner if he’s interested in getting to know me more. If he thinks that could be him, then fine. If not, no need to respond. I really don’t care if it scares him off. If it does he’s saved me a lot of trouble.
perfect timing. I have been hoping for a post to highlight decent guys. good sex, fun dates BUT when it comes to communication- only one person is leading it all. This has been me since last Feb and by March I knew it and told him. I have been talking to him about it every month since because of the things I knew he was and COULD be. but here I am, a year later leaving the relationship because lack of him asking questions or having his own will to just talk and keep on a conversation, became stale and exhausting as i piloted every fricken thing. i began to not trust him because if I came to him w a vent or a real issue I wanted advice on, he barely had any comment. ok, isnt that what you are suppose to do when you really care for someone? isnt it my right to bounce things off of my “partner” and get an opinion, or help or direction to see how to change that issue?
without communication, you can have all the great sex and go eat at fancy restaurants, but when you go home and you look at the other person to say something, anything and they dont… its VERY disappointing. I expected to have deep conversations, laugh about nonsense and so on. but my guy just repeats himself. its like hes on autopilot with a 10 word vocabulary. I am not growing. I am becoming lost in my life trying to find a way out or how to fix it. there is no fix other than me to walk away. nice guy, just doesnt have the basic foundation to keep a long lasting relationship. it feels like he doesnt care, when I know he does. but Ive been with people who are chatty and care. I need that. Im never needy and super independent with the right people. with this guy, I feel needy and am always waiting on him. to say the right thing, to talk about a new subject, to add to mine. nope. I run the conversation daily. so exhausting.
so, se la ve. when you feel stuck with someone, its a sign its not right. I feel selfish even thinking that way when I should be happy to have a man who is nice to me and strangers, pays for dinner but cannot hold a conversation by himself. shit, he hasnt even said my name more than 6 times (forced) in the past yr. thats hurtful.
Im off to get out the country for a few weeks so I hope to come back refreshed and not feeling bad for trying to end this nonfulfilling relationship for the 10th time. this time it needs to stay ended. I deserve more w out feeling guilty and I really want to feel safe when I tell someone something, because I KNOW they will have something to say back.
Heather, that was me and ex-EUM for FIVE years. Absolutely exhausting. It felt like I was pulling teeth with him 24/7. The only time he’d open up and actually say anything that meant anything is if I were leaving him or had left him. Then suddenly he’d be an open book. And I’d think “Hm, okay. Maybe he’s learned he will lose me if he doesn’t open more, and we won’t have this problem so much in the future.” I was wrong. By the time people hit their 30s their personalities are pretty much set in stone unless they really, really want to change. I used to come up with a list of things I could talk to him about because I’d always be driving the conversation. And god forbid I had an issue I wanted to bounce off of him. It was always “Don’t think about it so much” or “It will be fine” or whatever. Never a real conversation. I think the “teeth pulling” feeling I got was reminiscent of my childhood, where I never got any nurturing from either parent, and neither one of them gave a damn about anything that happened to me (still like that, both of them). Doesn’t make him a bad guy, just makes him an emotionally unavailable one. It’s tough, but you shouldn’t feel bad for wanting more. At the end I felt like if I was going to be single, I might as well be REALLY single, so I at least would give myself the opportunity to meet someone else.
oh my, thank you so much for relating and then saying it!! I dont know anyone w this issue and most would say, he wont cheat and he cooks, who cares if he doesnt talk but having a real conversation is VERY important to me. hearing my name called, him asking me questions that make me feel cared for… he ONLY talked to me more too as I was dumping him or had already left. it lasts maybe a week. I get all hope-y because he does exactly what I need for, days. thats it. never a full month.
we went to Stomp last night. I took him out for his b day and spent a ton of money. (btw on my birthday I didnt get anything but dinner- I wanted a hand made card w some nice words in it that I have not heard before.)
anyway, after the show, all he said was that was great. no discussion, no critique… no actual thinking and fun chat involved so I spent the next 15 minutes in silence as he drove me home. today, he said nothing. hell, Im still beaming over the wonderful show and talking to others about it. he hasnt said tidly.
what I boring, non purposeful relationship I had. I honestly felt like I sorta wasted a yr on him. waiting. im upset about it clearly. I wanted it to work. I tried everything possible to make it worth it. but in the end, Im drowning and hes the brick im allowing to be attached to my leg. I need to be set free to be single (cause thats what it feels like when you date a guy who acts like a wall all silent) you feel like you are not even in a relationship. its more cumbersome than making you excited or feel excited about the future. it not right of me to settle when I know what I personally need from a man. I can be very happy on my own, but I wont settle if i have a man in my life long term.
Heather,
Go with what you are wanting and needing in a relationship always as there are guys out there who are capable of carrying/holding a conversation (I would consider this normal by the way) long-term wise. And if not as in the case of your now ex, then there definitely was a mismatch there. Quiet has its moments in a relationship and the rest is for mutual sharing. He really showed lack of skills of expression and it seemed they only come out (momentarily) when he is under threat or pressured i.e. leaving him. all. alone. by. himself. boo. hoo. He probably thought once he had you there was nothing else he needed to do, so so wrong there on his part because you are not inanimate.
Put your energy into something/someone else worthwhile that will help continue your growth and mutually share your enthusiasm for life/living. It took a year of fine tuning for you as now you know definitely not to stay longer than you ought to.
It’s funny, as I was mulling this over, I remembered an old friend of mine whom I haven’t thought about in awhile since we both left our jobs and went elsewhere. We used to work together. She is the EUM exception. I think unfortunately it was something I always looked to when I was dating an EUM. When she first met her future husband, on about their 2nd or 3rd date, he completely blew her off. She said they were supposed to go to a parade and she’ll never forget how she sat there and sat there waiting and he never showed, no call, no nothing. I can’t remember what his excuse was, but I don’t recall it being a good one. Then one time they took a drive out somewhere and this is when they’d been dating a good 6 months. My friend said something about marriage and her future husband said, “Get this straight. I am never getting married.” My friend, who is the marrying kind, was SO horrified, she leapt out of the car and began running away. Therein followed several months where she continued to sort of see him but also date (behind his back). Anyway, long story short, the two went to therapy together. I guess kudos to him that he was willing to do it. They’ve now been married for about 10 years I guess, and have 2 kids. From what I can tell it’s a happy one.
My point here isn’t to get us all worked up and all, “So I shouldn’t have dumped my ex EUM!” My point is, I guess, that maybe everyone shouldn’t be flushed right off the bat over something if you feel something strong. On the other hand, while it worked out for her, I do not have the kind of energy to go through what she went through nailing this guy down. I went thru 5 years w an EUM and it didn’t end up like her story, and now I just want to get them over and out as soon as possible.
Diane, your post made me want share that I’ve had a big turnaround with my text-book narcissist OM. ‘I’ had been having an emotional affair with him for just over 2 years, with all the anxiety that comes along with the ride.
A few weeks ago he kissed me, tender and caring. It made all the difference. For whatever reason, it enabled him to for the first time have an open, honest and kind conversation with me. In the past, when I had tried to talk about where we both stood, I never got an answer and it always turned unpleasant.
This time, he talked of his feelings for me and how they conflicted his boundaries. He admitted to and apologised for his hot/cold behaviour, triangulation and so on. It gave me validation; I no longer doubt my ability to read signals.
He didn’t say he loved me, but his definition of love is limerence. What he described he felt for me, to me is love. You would think it would make me want him all the more, but in fact it has made it really easy for me to let go of the fantasy and see it for what it is.
I have found a place where I no longer fret about him seeing other women. I don’t wait for the phone to ring. I don’t see him often as I used to yet I don’t suffer from withdrawal.
I hope this happy place lasts. I hope I can be content knowing someone really cares for me and be grateful for just that.
thank you. its really one day at a time since i just ended it. my familiar side wants to go back to him and protect him some days and others I just keep moving forward all happy and productive to get a text that says very little either pulling me in or pissing me off more. Today it was a message that said something to the fact: im not the ideal partner and you have waited a yr but im not in the ideal situation, when it gets better I will be better. I replied, that has nothing to do with talking. and btw that one line he wrote was because I said Im moving forward in life, I deserve more and Im off to enjoy it.
I have no intent on dating someone right now. I plan a move this yr and just travel some. I get really worried about dating anyone cause its scary out there. people with std’s and cheat. I was married to a cheater and dont trust easily now. I stayed with this guy cause he was my 1st love in life as a kid and i trusted him. crazy to end it in such a shitty way. would have preferred to not have it like this cause even tho he hasnt done right by me in all ways, I dont want him to look back at me all sour and think I was a bitch.
life can be a struggle. I am finding my way again, even at this older age. ha!
well now what? I sent him a link https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/loneliness-happens-when-we-stop-expressing-how-we-feel-and-lose-emotional-connections-the-importance-of-self-care-and-safe-people/ he fits this perfectly. and now he talks cause he says this is him.
Regarding men who don’t talk, my last serious ex-boyfriend used to this to me, too: get very distant and cold unless he was unloading his issues on me. I recently discovered that there is a term for this: “withholding.” There is such a thing as emotional withholding, it’s not just about withholding sex or physical affection, although some men do this, too. It’s a manipulative tactic used to gain power and control in the relationship.
this all makes sense and thank you….I’m not entirely sure how to deal with my situation…I’ve been involved with a guy who I met 8 years ago on and off…we’ve never been official over the years but have been intimate with each other. My feelings have grown stronger and stronger and over the past 2-3 years we have become much closer. recently we decided to give us a go properly….however I feel he only suggested this because the other option was for me to walk away from him completely.
But now that we are boyfriend and girlfriend he makes very little effort….he rarely if ever calls and its always me making the first move and asking when we are seeing each other next etc. He told me he loved me and I do really love him but deep down I know that I deserve better and I think he knows that too but because I’m so crazily in love with him I guess I’ve somehow made myself ignore the bad stuff and tried to keep us going.
And him being him will act like everything is great and so when I address my feelings about certain situation he thinks I’m being dramatic and then he says stuff like how this is all too much for him and he’s a relaxed kind of guy and doesn’t like to argue. And I end up feeling crap thinking that he just doesn’t want to be that guy to put a smile on my face.
We did celebrate Valentines for the first time in 8 years together and he actually bought me something and wrote me a card so things are different in a good way…but its not enough…..it’s been such a long time…there must be a reason why he is still in my life, if he wanted to walk away he could but he hasn’t and I think that’s what makes this all the more confusing. I know deep down he does care about me a lot but is that enough for me to accept that he’s lazy and doesn’t want to treat me like a priority in his life? I’m so confused and hurt I don’t know if I should talk to him about how I feel or just cut the cord and find a way to move on with my life.
Confuzzled. Great name for your present state of mind. If it was a rship of short duration, I’d say cut the cord and go. But after 8 years I would imagine there are feelings between you that you’d like to salvage. Have a serious “sit-down” and explain your feelings. But, DO NOT do it with the intention of getting him to change. And, let him know that’s not your goal. He is not giving you more of himself and you want to know what he is thinking. He must know how deeply you feel about him but he may not share your capacity for a deep abiding love. Does he give you respect, honesty, trust and true caring? That may be all he can give. I wouldn’t try to force more from him. But, I do think you should start looking around and dating others. Stop putting all your eggs in one basket. He seems to be moving awfully slowly toward you, if that is what is happening. Or he may have his reasons why he hasn’t moved more rapidly. Are you truly his girlfriend or is it your assumption that you are. Get him to TALK. Most men don’t do well talking about their feelings. So don’t expect much. You can learn more from their actions. But, in any event, you should not continue to be exclusive with him regardless of his answers. Men will tell you whatever is in their best interests to tell you. You spent 8 years of your life with him with varying degrees of intensity in the rship. It’s past time to get clear on where you two are going. But still date others until he “claims you for his own”.
Thanks Serene,
I know everything you’re saying is true. I just don’t understand what goes through his mind! I recently came back from holiday and since I’ve come back he’s made no effort to make plans to see me or call to ask how I’ve been. I got a few messages but is that all I’m worth?! He doesn’t take things all that seriously so to him right now he probably thinks we are great. I have tried talking to him in the past and when I think we have resolved our issues it reappears again.
Maybe this is a sign that I cannot hold the relationship for the both of us. He’s made me into this needy desperate annoying ans crazy person…a person I never thought I could be.
I’ll try reaching out to him again if I can but you’re right I cannot waste any more of my time on someone who doesn’t value my presence in his life. At the same time I find it difficult to meet new people because of my strong feelings towards him. I’m scared I’ll never get over him 🙁