Every few months or so, I experience a stressful patch with work where I feel overwhelmed and frustrated. It’s during these times that I come up with constructive ways to deal with the issues that do end up making me feel somewhat better and improve things, but I did laugh to myself when I realised that griping about work has become my replacement for griping about my love life.
An acquaintance who was involved with someone who I don’t recall her ever being happy with beyond the first couple of months were together a couple of years. Like clockwork, I could predict when she was going to start the whole ‘I’m sick of this. If he doesn’t sort himself out, I’m gone!’ declarations and when I asked her why she was staying, she said “Truthfully, I don’t know. I guess things are not bad enough yet”.
When I asked someone else why she would keep going back to someone who blatantly uses her for sex that she regularly complains about, she said “I’m giving myself time to get used to the idea of us not being together”.
Another friend has declared that he hates smoking and he’s going to give up in January. Obviously he doesn’t hate it that much…
What’s common to all of these situations is that it appears that whatever we perceive to be ‘really bad’ hasn’t happened yet.
I know that if I was experiencing painful consequences that put me in the do or die position, I’d have made some very drastic changes. If my acquaintance’s fears were not so big or she hadn’t hid behind his problems, or he’d done that imagined ‘Thing’ that she believed would galvanise her into dumping him, maybe she’d have been out of the relationship sooner. If the arbitrary time that the woman thinks she will get used to the idea of not having sex with him arrives (while continuing to have sex with him), she will move on. The friend who is giving up smoking in January, maybe doesn’t dislike smoking as much as he claims he to, but if he experiences a negative consequence to smoking in the meantime or can be very determined, then maybe he might. I should probably mention that he periodically says he’ll give up but doesn’t…
It then occurred to me when I was pondering how to get uncomfortable and make some big changes with my work, that when we Stay and Complain, we’re about a hop, skip, and a jump from being complacent.
While you can wait around to feel the pain and be forced into doing something very different and making the change, why should we wait around to experience worse than what we already have before we’ll pull our finger out and declare enough and actually do something?
Like a lot of women, when I used to date Mr Unavailables who dodged commitment with ease, when I ‘woke up’ in barely there relationships where I didn’t know where I stood or that were more casual than what I claimed I would like, I assumed it was because it must be what I want, after all, if I didn’t want it, I’d be out of the situation. With other guys where I declared my frustrations but stuck around, there was a part of me that believed that if it were ‘that bad’, I’d be out.
This is of course complete bullshit.
The truth is that often things are ‘that bad’ or bad enough but we’re planning to deal with it at some point but not today, or we’re hoping that another solution that will not require us to get too much out of our comfort zone will materialise, or that if we keep plugging away or doing little things that it’ll be enough to make a difference. That…and we bullshit ourselves.
Our lives are full of habits and we are creatures of habit, even if they are bad ones that work against us.
In an ideal world, we’d like to switch from one set of habits to another with ease but it doesn’t work out this way because to switch to other habits, we have to get behind our choice and consistently do the stuff that creates the new habit.
For me, that’s delegation, re-organising myself, riding my arse like Zorro over my time management, and ensuring that I have realistic expectations of myself. This means lists, planning, and more.
For the woman who is Staying and Complaining, she made a resolution to either zip it and accept or get out. Turns out she couldn’t zip it, so she’s out.
For the booty call girl, she had her wake up call when she acknowledged that she was objectifying him in a way that she wouldn’t like to be objectified. She also realised that continuing to have sex with someone to get used to the idea of not having sex with them is straight up relationship crack. There was never going to be the perfect time. It’s like saying ‘I’m addicted to coke but I’m going to snort lines for a while longer until I get used to the idea of not doing coke’.
For the guy who says he’s giving up smoking in January, he admitted that while he’d swear blind that he means it, he recognises that he’ll know he’s really giving up, not when he announces it in advance, but when he just gets up and stops without fanfare.
There is no ‘perfect time’. While there is the possibility of things getting ‘worse’ don’t get complacent and decide that because you’re doing OK now that it’s not that bad. Either it’s not as bad as you say it is which means you’re exaggerating and saying stuff for effect, or things are not working for you. You’re existing, you’re managing, you’re getting by, but you don’t like how you’re doing it.
If something isn’t working for you, why are you waiting around for it to feel like it’s 100% or 110% not working for you?
While it’s good and necessary to have limits to what you will put up with, make sure that you are not relying on the ‘outer limits’ where you’ll put up with and do a lot of destructive stuff before you would even consider making the necessary changes.
One of the things that I learned through my relationship experiences and building my self-esteem is that imposing very firm limits and listening to yourself means that you have to use the cues and signals that come with some lesser but nonetheless notable signs, to make uncomfortable decisions that while they feel painful to do, are in your best interests for the medium and long-term.
And that’s actually another indicator of when you really have to put your foot down – if what you’re doing sorts you out for the short-term but doesn’t do anything for you beyond that. This indicates short-term thinking which will get you by, give you short-term fixes and thrills, but will have you returning to square one and being trapped in your own insanity.
I have work insanity, others have relationship insanity – we all have habits that we engage in that cause us frustration and yet we don’t do anything about them. The key is recognising the ‘topline data’ which is the key overall ‘symptoms’ of your situation. Many of us get lost in the details, investigating the other persons problems, looking for understanding of why every last little thing is happening and rationalising the situation by finding even the smallest of anomalies to justify why our situation is different, why the person is an exception to the rule etc.
The presence of the frustrations in my work habits are a red flag telling me to adjust my habits.
The presence of the flip flapping, commitment dodging, and general emotional unavailability of my acquaintances boyfriend are a red flag telling her that they are incompatible and unhealthy. She can investigate the crap out of why he is this way but that would be missing the point.
The woman being used for sex in a situation where she had actually wanted a relationship and he sees her as nothing more than someone to pass time and get his rocks off with is more than enough information.
The fact that he has wanted to give up smoking quite a few times but hasn’t, doesn’t mean that he wants to smoke but it does mean that he will need to be tactical as well as working on the right mindset.
You don’t have to wait around to be really uncomfortable or be in immense pain. It’s your job to listen to yourself and heed the signs of your discomfort. Don’t fall into the trap of complaining but not really doing anything about it because the reality is, if you ignore the signs, you’ll keep revisiting the issue until you finally learn the lesson that the situation is throwing you.
Your thoughts?
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Great post, Natalie.
“She can investigate the crap out of why he is this way but that would be missing the point.”
That is brilliant! You are so right! I investigated the punk out of my AC’s utter bizarreness for three years, but what was the point? I went NC about a month ago and I should have done it years ago! I could have saved myself a lot of time by just coming straight to BR back then, but I didn’t know about it yet.
I came across an interesting thing I’ve never seen that much about. Traumatic bonding aka betrayal bonding. Have any of you heard of this? It fits with this post because one of the signs is that the “victim” doesn’t see what has been done to her as that bad, but others are bug-eyed with their mouths agape at the treatment. It’s like having cataracts on the eyes and the brain when dealing with EUMs/ACs/Narcs to not see the severity of their abuse.
Stay the course, BR gals!
You wouldnt happen to have links for your betrayal bonding topic would you?
Hi Mel,
I put “traumatic bonding” into Google and found the following checklist to be very informative and helpful in learning about betrayal bonding. It contains 30 signs of it, and unfortunately, I had about 23 of them. It really opened my eyes even more to not only his poor treatment of me, but my own part in it as well. I hope it helps you like it did me. Best wishes. 🙂
Just now saw your reply, THANK you , investigating it now. xx
Hi Mel,
You are more than welcome. I can’t tell you how seeing these signs of betrayal bonding in front of my face in black and white not only scared me nearly to death, but also confirmed I am so doing the right thing by going NC. I need to fix the issues within me that caused me to enter into such a destructive cycle continuing to be kind to my AC.
I hope you found that checklist as helpful as I did.
BEST of luck to you, Mel. 🙂
LN
Hello Mel, here is a very interesting article about traumatic bonding:
Sounds a bit like Stockholm Syndrome? Joseph Carver, a pychologoist with terrific and humorous insight into toxic relationhips has written an article about it:
http://www.drjoecarver.com/
Answer is still the same though – it’s up to us to run for the hills!
Kanye West has a song called Runaway-Toast to the Douchebags. Everyone should give it a listen because it’s a narcissist talking about being a douchebag and advising ladies to RUN, hence the name Runaway. Astounding and amazingly dead on.
Scary – so very true. Run away as fast as you can.
Yes, Grace, I believe traumatic bonding is very much like Stockholm Syndrome. Thank you for the link.
I never knew that Stockholm Syndrome could be associated with abusive relationships, romantic or otherwise. I always thought it was reserved for kidnapping situations.
This is just another layer of the onion that has been peeled back telling me that NC is the way to go.
I know exactly what that is. My mother is a narcissist and very controlling. She is a widow, lives along in a rural area. Very needy and getting worse all the time. We have to deal with her. Now I at the age of 50 am finally seeing that it is growing up under her thumb that has made me so comfortable with controlling men. My mother is not very nice. Never ever was loving or affectionate. So a man that is not very nice or very affectionate seems normal to me. As long as he is not hitting me or calling me names or swearing at me, he must be fine.
I don’t know how I can get over those kind of relationships as long as my mother is alive. Right now today she is making me crazy because she (like every year since my father died) REFUSES to make plans for Xmas. She doesn’t really want to cook for us but if my sister or I make plans then mother is mad because she is not controlling the situation. Today she refuses to discuss Xmas. She does this every year, leaving me scrambling around at the last minute. I grew up having to cater to her whims… tip-toeing around. I learned that as a survival mechanism and it is so ingrained in me that I do it now with men and don’t even realize it until one day I’m feeling so taken for granted I snap.
Kim
Why not do your own thing this Christmas – even if it ‘s just staying at home with dvds and the phone off the hook? Let your mother be a rotter to someone else, or spend it on her own.
I’m 45 and only just started standing up to my parents and, you know what, the world did not cave in, they coped with it and I feel 100% better. Granted my mother is disabled now so physically and mentally incapable of torturing me anymore, but you must must must draw a boundary line with your mother, just as we must with our other relationships.
I know what you’re going through.
It’s true, we become complacent when we get too used to things being the way they are. We also become complacent when we don’t believe we are good enough to reverse the situation to our advantage when we finally do decide a change is in order. So we don’t change.
You’re right that old habits die hard and it takes more than a concerted effort to bring about lasting change. If there’s a will, there’s a way and when people get fed up enough with themselves and their situation, they’ll break their bad habits. The thing is, so many people are content to settle for what they believe is their lot in life because they’ve never had better. When you finally do get a taste for what’s better, you no longer resort to second best.
For me, it’s like going from Cook’s to Moet and back to Cook’s again. If I can’t have the Moet, I’ll be darned if I’m going to go back to Cook’s just because it’s there to be had. That defies all logic. I tasted the Moet and everything else just doesn’t compare so I’d rather do without than settle for less. 😉
Complaining is a national past-time, just like Rugby is a national past-time, enthusiastically particpated in and never to be given up:)
Complaining and really being unhappy enough to leave are two totally different things.
Everyone has a different tolerance level.
The more self-esteem you have, the more likely you are to tolerate less — which means you’ll be complaining less because you won’t be in the unhealthy/disappointing relationship as long.
(And if you are a friend or aquaintance of a complainer: Just as long as you realize that someone complaining doesn’t mean they will take action, it’s less frustrating to watch them willingly participating in a self-destructive relationship. You see who they are, and know talk means more to them than action.
Lots of things keep people in unhappy or unhealthy relationships. Yet admitting the reasons or excuses for staying is not something most people want to confess, because then you DO look like a weenie for not having the balls or guts to leave. So they complain, nobody calls them on their complaining, and the status quo is ongoing.
Depends on how important taking charge of your life and choices really is to you, as compared to being somewhat or completely stuck in the victim role.
If you sort your life out with determination, there’s not much to complain about. It’s the inaction that breeds discontent. Or the refusal to take responsibility for your choices.
Interesting and thought-provoking post Natalie.
I’m telling myself I can’t leave now as it’s coming up to Christmas and I’d be miserable – and it’s cold! He’s telling me he doesn’t know if he believes in love and that I’m fat. (I’m 5’8″ and weigh 9 stone). Basically, work out and he will sleep with me (it’s been weeks). I can’t face the idea of starting anew and yet and I feel lonely in this relationship.
Alice
Dump him now, spend the holidays with friends/family/the dog, watching girly DVDs and crying. Spend the money you would have spent on his present on yourself. Relax and let all your body hair grow out.
By summer you will be feeling a whole lot better, ready for a new wardrobe, some flirtation and a better man!
And you’re not fat.
The guy is clearly a moron! Trying to make you feel bad about yourself, perhaps so you don’t get any ‘epiphanies’ about being too good for him and move onto someone better. I can see no other reason for the ‘fat’ comments.
It is difficult to leave a relationship, because it feels, initially, like you’re leaving one type of misery for another – like jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. You’re unhappy now and you’ll be unhappy if you leave, it’s not like leaving a rubbish job and moving to a tropical location, where there is a definite and immediate ‘reward’ for leaving. You have to remember that the post breakup misery is only temporary (believe me, i’m 3 months NC and have only now finally got over it properly). It’s like going into rehab for drug addiction – you get the initial withdrawl and it’s torure, you would give anything for another hit to dull the pain, but it’s only a temporary fix. When you’ve completed the detox and had time to set yourself straight, THAT’S when you feel the benefit. It’s a very hard road and the rewards are not immediate, but eventually you will come out the other side and be the stronger for it. It is well worth doing.
I found the best way to keep NC was to think of the consequences of making contact: if i text or emailed, i would sit there chewing my fingers off until i get a reply. If i slept with him, it would feel great, but then i would be left wondering what the hell was going on after he left. If i imagined a future together, i would feel the crushing disappointment when he made it clear that wasn’t going to happen – i never want to feel that anxiety again. Life is great now, i have turned a hobby into a career, i have brilliant friends, a lovely guy (very early days) who doesn’t mess me about – it’s easy: there’s no worry, no anxiety, no ambiguity, i am completely myself, with boundaries and everything. I thought i would never get over the ex EUM, but i have and it was all worth it – the tears, loneliness, wondering if i would ever feel better.
Best of luck. I am sure you’re courageous enough to do this, even if it is coming up to Christmas.
AliceB,
Why are you doing this to yourself????? He has the audacity to call you fat and not sleep with you, that’s horrendous treatement Alice. and you must know that you are in no way fat. i’m two inches smaller than you and weigh a stone and a half heavier and i’m considered a healthy weight. Come on now, don’t do this to yourself anymore. Girl you will have a miserable christmas WITH HIM. Ask yourself, are you really happy with him??? i know what you mean by feeling lonely. whem my guy rang cold on me, after telling me he was ready to give me his whole heart, i never felt so lonely in my life. and it was a horrible feeling cos i’m generally not a person who feels lonely. you feel lonely, alice, because he doesn’t have his feet in the relationship and is nasty to boot. any guy that calls a woman fat is NO GOOD for any woman.
@Annie,
My ex husband was like this. I was 5ft 4 and weighed 9 st. He called me fat all the time. Then that changed a few years later after I had children and lost weight and went back to the weight where I first met him. Then he said I was TOO SKINNY!
These men say these horrendous things to knock your self confidence to chip away at it so they gain CONTROL of you to do as they will to suit their purpose.
That’s not love – that’s emotional abuse!
I’m sorry to put this so bluntly but unless you get out you’ll end up lost like I was for 27 years! Don’t waste your life on this heap of crap (because that’s what he is) and see yourself as the wonderful person you are and know that you deserve better treatment.
He’s abusing you, abusing your trust, pushing to see what he can get away with. If you lost more weight and slept with him do you think he will be happy with you? No, he won’t be, because it will never be enough. What ever you do will never be enough. I know this first hand because I went through what you have.
In the end I took all my fears and turned it around. I challenged myself to start anew and divorced him!
Stand your ground, be proud of who you are and how you look. And know that endings are not just endings they are beginnings, it’s the change that can lead you to such a wonderful life – stress free and happy!
*hugs*
Alice,
Nothing is more rewarding than getting your self-esteem back!!!! I speak from experience, as this experience changed every aspect of my life for the better.
Yes, initially things will be difficult, but the rewards of leaving an emotionally abusive relationship far outweigh staying in this miserable situation.
I think you really need to address why you choose to stay in this unhealthy environment. A man does not fulfill us, we fulfill ourselves!
Alice – give yourself the best Christmas present ever – freedom. Don’t look back – don’t hesitate at the door – just keep walking.
As usual, Natalie speaks to my heart <3. Three weeks NC, missing him (married man) because I am only thinking of the good times, the bad were darn bad enough but I rationalized them. I finally quit smoking after 20+ yrs and many tries when I became convinced I had lung cancer. It doesn't get worse than that! It turned out I didn't, Thank God, but the "believing" I did was enough, never touched another cig and it has been 6 years. I never even craved it! So do I want to wait until I am a puddle on the floor with no dignity, or is 2 months of great fun and 3 months of shit bad enough? I say bad enough!! Thanks Nat!
You are a relationship GOD. This is exactly what happened with my ex-boyfriend and I. I let him treat me like shit for a really long time, even though I didn’t even like him that much. It was awful, I realized how ridiculous and utterly stupid the situation was, but I just couldn’t leave him. I think a lot of people stay in abusive relationships because they don’t lose hope for the other person; sometimes I still wish I could’ve changed him.
He cheated on me like 10 times before I left him. And the only reason it ended was because he was late for church one morning because he had been with his EX the night before. Talk about a effing wake-up call.
And he was late for church – what a contradiction!! Shows you where his values are!!!
All rings true for me! I particularly like this:
“In an ideal world, we’d like to switch from one set of habits to another with ease but it doesn’t work out this way because to switch to other habits, we have to *get behind our choice* and consistently do the stuff that creates the new habit.”
I have heard you say this in a variety of ways on different blogs, Natalie: “get behind your decision” / “get behind your choice”… it struck a chord with me first time I read it and it does again here in this blog; it’s well worth repeating this idea.
I think ‘not really being behind’ my own ‘choices’ has been my failing more than once in life and most certainly in my efforts to, yes, I’m afraid to admit it – stop smoking (!) and in dealing with the problem of my barely there relationship.
It was your phrase “get behind your decision” that really brought home to me for some reason, because it does seem so obvious, that to ‘get behind’ my decision (or my choice) was seriously what I had to deal with, and is I think the thing that takes the most courage.
You have said on previous blogs that we might find NC is not as hard as we might think it is going to be once we ‘get behind it’, and you are right – the barrier to get over is getting out of the wishy-washy approach to ‘maybe dealing with it some day, but not right now’ or, as you say, the wishy-washy half-hearted attempts to find an easier, less painful road, which actually just means staying in the situation and prolonging our need to get behind a decision – any decision!
I think when we finally realise that there is no half-way house, no third option – there are only the two: (a) stay in it or (b) get out – there is no (c) option, whether this applies to smoking, coke or crap relationships.
What I now see, as you have said before, is that once you ‘get behind’ your choice, half the work is done – maybe even more than half! And the next half is as you say about consistently making that change in your behaviour. For me that change is simple to identify – do not contact him – at all – for any reason! NC has not been a breeze, no, but it is easier than I thought it would be because I am no longer in a state of indecision or in fear of making the decision or trying to make it but not really being behind it – now the worst part is done.
My worst fears are realised: he is every bit as bad as I suspected he was all along, I have to let it go as a very bad investment and I will not see him or be with him again. These three combined amounted to the worst case final scenario for me – and now that I have accepted the worst case scenario as necessary and inevitable there is nothing else – nothing left – to fear. I am behind my decision to ‘sell up and move on’ (metaphorically speaking) and being right behind that decision makes it seem much more achievable.
Thanks!! x
@Fearless — I agree with everything you have written here. It all chimes with me. I think that I am again going to make a “wishy-washy half-hearted attempt to find an easier, less painful road” by finding reasons to see him again (platonically) because I’m finding the thought of never doing too painful and despite all I know about him something in me just can’t bear to have no contact yet.
Totally wishy-washy.
It would probably be better to pair your decision to pull back with some therapy/journaling so you work out the underlying reasons he’s so attractive to you. It’s like any addiction. You attack the underlying reason for you are lying to yourself and using him to fill up your self esteem. Then, walking away from him is CAKE.
@Wastedlove,
I can tell you from very lengthy and wearisome experience that going wishy-washy always turns out to be exactly the same as just doing nothing; it is our way of fooling ourselves that we have made a decision when what we have actually done is avoid making any decision at all. I have done the ‘no more sex – just platonic’ thing more times than I have had hot dinners with the ex EUM – it doesn’t work out for all kinds of reasons… it doesn’t change the way you feel about them, so the hurt doesn’t go away, in fact it is heightened by the ‘limbo land’ situation and the sex will happen anyway, believe me, it will.
You have tried a sex-only agenda/boundary with him (no sociable chit-chat) and now you seem to be thinking you will spin that boundary on its head to go for a chit-chat only agenda/boundary (no sex). Perhaps it would be a good idea to sort out exactly what you think you should accept from a relationship – any relationship, including this one! and what you should not accept. For boundaries to work for you, to be in your favour and to restore some of your self-esteem they cannot be switched and bent all roads depending on how you feel as if you are choosing from the ‘menu of the day’. This will be counter productive and eventually you will see that there is no easy-road here; wishy-washy packs no punch; it’s like showing up at the battle to fight for your life with a rubber sword (albeit the new and improved version!) imagining that he will now think we are a force to be reckoned with. We may as well turn up empty handed – because wishy-washy is dead obvious to him! He sees it as a sad and desperate attempt to make a point that you do not actually have the nerve to make. All they see is “the lady doth protest too little!”
These men know full well that they are treating us very, very badly; they can’t understand why we are not protesting fiercely, even why we are still talking to them at all; they think all their Christmases have come at once; they cannot believe we are still tolerating this crap arrangement and have not told them to sling their hook long before now. Wishy-washy boundaries are not boundaries, they are an attempt to body-swerve actually having any boundaries.
Sooner or later each of us will come to realise that there are only two real choices here – we either accept the guy and the ‘relationship’ for what he is and for what it is, on his terms – or we stop showing up for it and get out. That is the bottom line.
Thanks Fearless. Long story short. I’d already told him I wanted to reduce the relationship to sex-only. He agreed but keeps trying for more “social” time with me. Then Saturday he emailed inviting me to a non-sex thing (to see something he’s doing) and to offer to repair something in my home. I ignored both invitations. Instead, Sat eve I emailed to say I’m ending the “sex-only” thing now (which, technically ends our relationship). He replied to ask if I was sure, I replied Yes, he replied OK, all the best. Reading that, I became utterly distraught, could not stop sobbing, felt as though I’d been dumped not vice versa, wept all evening, sobbed nearly all night barely slept, never felt so miserable in all my life, felt I was harming myself by doing this, felt I wasn’t ready, wished I’d never sent that email. In the deepest, darkest hours I phoned the Samaritans but they could barely understand what I was saying through the anguished sobs. This morning woke up, sobbed myself stupid again, felt that I could not possibly stand the pain any longer, felt panic at the idea of never seeing him again, never hearing from him again, and so I replied to his invitation and offer with tears streaming down my face and literally trembling all over, then sobbed for three more hours, drank alcohol for breakfast to calm down, felt like I’d die of misery… Then I got a cheerful reply saying he’d be in touch in a few weeks time to take me out to the one thing, and to come round and mend the other thing, as a friend only. All my pain and misery and fear and distress instantly evaporated. My stomach at last felt settled, the tightness in my chest disappeared. After a few tears of sheer relief I was able to get on and concentrate on my professional work feeling completely calm and content, in no rush at all to see him, but with a lovely warm feeling that I indeed will see him again. I was then able to forget about him for most of the rest of the day (until I received a chatty email about what he did today, that needs no response).
I wonder what my violently emotional reactions mean? That I am not quite ready to end it with him? Or just that I am a wimp who gives up NC too soon just because she cannot bear too much pain? Maybe I’m never going to get free of him until I stop yearning, and that will come naturally and cannot be forced by attempting NC before I am truly ready. Now I am going to try to be platonic friends (we’ve never done that, we had sex first date) and this may be what I need to get free of him because by removing the only thing I want (sex) and allowing myself to have only his annoying and sometimes obnoxiouls company will detach me from him in a more “natural” way than artificial NC. Only time will tell. Maybe I am just going to be stuck with him for life (as either a lover or an acquaintance) because it’s better for me than the alternative of being without him. Don’t get me wrong: I am prepared to look for another lover while still emailing or being friends or being lovers with him. Or maybe I will decide that I’m going to be celibate from now on (I’ve had a jolly good innings, after all.)
So, this evening I feel chirpy and chipper, content inside and completely calm, and a million miles from the weeping, anguished, desperate woman I was last night.
This site is helping tremendously by forcing me to analyse and justify and then write down why I am still seeing this man. Anonymity gives me the freedom to be 1005 honest. Thank you Natalie, once again, from the bottom of my heart, for providing this safe space for us.
What I have realised so far: I have a strong (but natural, human) need to be loved/ desired. I’ve had many loving b/f in the past and have a lot of love to give, but men now reject me (they find me too fat/ugly). His false charming/ romantic/ sexual persona tapped into my loneliness and need to be loved/desired and I fell head over heels with the charming False Self he presents.
During our hours of lovemaking I join him in a fantasy world in which he is the “Perfect Lover” and I am a Desirable Woman.
But when we converse I find his callous attitude to other humans (even his friends, and me) distasteful, sometimes even obnoxious. I was finding him increasingly repugnant and worried that I’d no longer be able to enjoy him sexually. Our sessions of carnal pleasure, escapism and the illusion of being loved/desired were the highlight of my week, so I could not let reality interfere and ruin them.
Despite extensive searching I cannot find any other man to love or even have sex with (other than one-offs, which I refuse) and have to face the fact that my choice is now limited to this AC or celibacy.
So I reduced our meetings to “sex-only” to avoid having any conversation. Then the other day I told him no more sex. Then I agreed to meet “as friends” because there are two upcoming, specific, practical reasons to meet him.
This could work in my favour (help me break from him) because conversation will render him increasingly repellent to me as he reveals more unpalatable opinions, views and beliefs. Without the amazing fantasy-sex to keep me hooked, for what reason would I continue to meet him?
So, we’ll see how it goes!
to WastedLove: I think your relationship is very toxic and its stringing out your emotions. when he agreed with your e-mail re no sex you went into an emotional rollercoaster cos you thought he was done with you. You are undecided about what you want with this man. i think, deep down you are trying every tactic in the book to get him love you and to turn from a frog to a prince. you are also playing mind games. am i right? there are better men out there, you need to be brave, cut him out of your life COMPLETELY and open yourself up to finding love with a genuine decent guy who will make you feel good about being with him. you are wasting your time with this guy. sorry to say it but its true.
@wasted love,
first of all let me say that you may be surpirsed if you knew just how much I relate to your above post. I never did the uncontrollable sobbing and samaritan calling – but the feelings you descibe above are EXACTLY what I went through literally hundreds of times with my ex and for PRECISELY the same reasons: his dismissal of my attempts to gain some control of the agenda (or relationship, whatever you want to call it – but attempts to ‘take charge’ of what was happening in the relationship).
I too have countless experiences of putting my “new” agenda to him and getting either no reply or one just like yours, for example his: “okay. I will leave you alone”.
And those responses had me wanting to die. They put me into seventh hell. I would be unable to function properly, cry, take to my bed, not want to see anyone, feel unable to cope walking about in a daze of abject misery… I know EXACTLY what you are experiencing.
I have to say these dismissive texts from them couched in language of “compliance with your wishes” (aren’t they just soooo considerate of our need and wants??!!) amount to nothing more than holding you to ransom. It is their way of telling you to go fuck yourself with your attempts to re-align the situation, to turn up with a new rubber sword – who do you think you are kidding!! It is their way of telling you that if you do not like their terms, you can fuck off. (pardon my language but I think it is essential for the sake of accuracy!!).
I always recognised this at the time – that I was being told essentially to ‘put up or fuck off ‘ – but it left me feeling utterly desolate and utterly helpless in controlling my own circumstances/life/environment, whatever.
And I would do exactly as you have done – have done it a zillion times! I could not stand to feel the way I did any longer, I bitterly regretted the message I had sent him laying out the “new agenda”, waving my rubber sword around and I desperately wanted to retract – and I did. I would text/email him in a state of terrible upset… and of course… being so concerned and upset for me he would accept my change of heart without ever being mean enough to point my weakness out to me (!! Such a nice man!).
Let me tell you, wasted love, many on here, including me, could write the script for you… I could be your crystal ball!! Let me tell you that you will not stick to ‘no sex’. The sex will happen, trust me. He is not “for” you – he is for himself. He has no interest or concern about how his behaviour is making you feel. He does not need you to validate him – you need him to validate you. You can wave your rubber sword around as much as you like but it will change nothing – nada! He holds ALL the power. And in any deal the person with the power is the person who can walk away.
You need to regain your own personal power. So that you can walk away.
When I went NC I decided not to keep him informed of “my new agenda” for lots of reasons, but one was that I did not want his “okay then” text to destroy me and my efforts.
I read on this site and in books about how to stop needing validation from him – how to validate myself… and this advice of Nat’s about self-validation, and all to do with it, was my saviour. It was one thing that I had never thought about or understood before: he makes you feel like dying with his dismissals because YOU NEED HIM to validate you and when he doesn’t do it you feel like a piece of shit and want to die in a hole – fast – to be put out of your misery. And so rather then looking to ourselves to sort out how we are feeling, and do something about it for ourselves, we look to, of all people, of all the WRONG people – HIM. That is our biggest mistake. This is what peretuates the whole cycle of misery. When you look to him to alleviate the misery that he is causing in the first place, you are a turkey signing up for Christmas! Believe me – I know this and so do many others here.
When I got the issue about my need for him to validate me as a person of worth and value… I got it! And it made me angry that he had this power over me that I did not want him to have – and am still angry enough to not want to give it over to him (hence my last words to him “I have nothing to offer you either”). In the past few months I have had weak points where I wanted to see him etc… but what I do is give myself a good talk about me validating me. I remind myslef about who I am, what I am worth to ME!! Not to him!! I am worth more and I know it!! I do not need him to pass me a crumb to feel like a valuable person, not any more! And neither should you. Whether you ever get validation (or sex!) or not from any other human being ever again is NOT the point here. You need to get that. You have to be able to validate you! Or you will be in this place forever, with this guy or with another.
Let me tell you, at the moment all that lies ahead for you is more of the same. More of wanting to die. More of feeling like shit about your inability to deal with the situation. More of nights like you just described. More sex. More crap. More of exactly the same ad infinitum until one of you dies – or, as was my fear, until he tires of you and moves on… and then you will have to deal with it anyway!!
In short, you need to address where you get your validation from. Read as much as you can about rasing your self-esteem – you are relying on him to give you permission to live and breath in the simulation of a normal person!!
I can’t impress on you enough that you really need to take action for yourself here, whether you are seeing him or not. Work on your issues of low self-esteem. You are still buying into the idea that there is an easy, gradual road out – no, there is just more of the same. And trust me: you will have the sex anyway. And you will feel like shit cos you don’t even have the guts to wave a rubber sword around.
All the best, seriously, I mean it! I feel for you.
It’s like you wrote this just for me today. Just (gracefully) left a dead-end “relationship” and resigned from miserable job over the last two weeks. I can say with conviction that the relief I feel far outweighs the discomfort brought with the changes. I’m nervous, but much happier knowing I’m done with the “stay and complain” routine and taking action to create better future for myself. I’m sure it’s going to make my friends and family much happier, as well.
I guess for myself being the fallback girl for 18 months it still wasn’t bad enough to let go. Not sure what triggered the start of my NC a year ago, I just woke up one morning and had had enough. There wasn’t any great epiphany it was just time.
Amen NML! Tolerating and making excuses for your partners behavior -you can do that till the cows come home and it’s not going to change the fact they broke a serious boundary. Why women take men back that cheat on them, or string them along with thier deceitful ways is just a woman who is hiding her head in the sand because she doesn’t want to accept the reality because it takes her out or her “comfort zone”. Don’t we owe it to ourselves not to be treated in such a disrepectful way especially by a man that says he cares about us and loves us whom we share a bed and life with?? Are we so blinded by “love” that we think that we should take this kind of crap from the man that promised to be faithful??? To any woman out there that is allowing someone to take advantage of them-do something about it NOW. Don’t wait for him to “get better”. he won’t. he doesn’t have to-your keeping him so why should he change. he will just pretend that he has and then continue doing the same thing behind your back. Wake up-get some self respect.
I am increasingly convinced that something about the way we women are raised/indoctrinated by being fed a diet of heartrending love songs, romantic movies and tragic novels that makes us believe that “love will conquer all” ; and that emotionally unavailable men MUST be chased after and loved unconditionally in the desperate hope they will eventually love us back – or, if they don’t, there is something noble about being lovesick and yearning and pining and showing lifelong devotion by never letting him go out of your heart.
And maybe there is something about women’s brains that allows these ideas to take hold more often than they do with men (though I have met a handful of lovesick men in my time).
When I was a child the torch songs of unrequited love etc were played pretty much incessantly in our house — could this have somehow brainwashed me?
Thoughts, anyone?
WastedLove, those topics are covered here, here, here, and here.
THANKS!
I’m trying to replace those torch songs in my head with THIS one Natalie, what do you think?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOT-jbXJJL4
I thought I’d read every page on this site, but I’ve never come across any of the ones you’ve sent me links to. Could you please direct me to a list of all pages on the site? I don’t want to miss ONE WORD of what you have written, you blooming genius!
Wasted love – I think you are bang on. Two examples come immediately to mind. The whole Twilight series (books and movies) – that Edward guy is classic EUM, and Bella is the only special one who can pursue him/get him (what kind of message is that to raise girls on?). The other is the whole reality TV Bachelor series where women turn themselves inside out to compete for some dumbass who spends his time necking with all and sundry in a hot tub. And they think he’s a prize? Sadly, we once did have morality tales designed to warn women but turned those over to Disney and the revised ending. I’ve been watching my niece consume The Little Mermaid – the Ariel version where she gets the prince after sacrificing her people, her culture and her voice (she is a gifted singer). In the original story, she sacrifices all of these, plus it is excruciatingly painful to walk, only to be the prince’s fallback girl, and his marriage option until he meets the princess of his dreams and marries her instead. The little mermaid dies as a result of the deal she has made. I think that is a brilliant cautionary tale about the fickle nature of men, and giving up the things that make us unique and beautiful just to gain the attention of one man. Sorry, bit of a rant, but all that to say that yes, this is culturally embedded.
Hans Christian Anderson’s “The Red Shoes” is a cautionary tale about girls who have TOO much self esteem. The ballerina gets vain about her looks, is tempted by a devil-like man to get some red ballet shoes, and can’t stop dancing when she wears them, to the point that she has her feet cut off b/c her feet are in so much pain b/c they won’t stop dancing!!
So girls can’t be too proud, either.
(Anderson wrote “The Little Mermaid.)
BTW, the “deal” that women make today involves backstabbing each other, losing friendships, to the point where we can’t trust each other as friends, over whatever stupid “man” is involved.
Men DON’T HAVE TO change. They can STAY fickle.
All the more reason to try to get involved with one who has a sister!
… or to good at, or committed to, their hobbies or professions, because all THEIR interests are dropped when Prince Charming comes along.
Yes – that is correct Used re: Anderson… and Disney repurposed it to tell a different morality tale to a new generation. Anderson actually wrote a lot of stories that are still so applicable today. I totally agree with you over backstabbing etc. for a man. I think the bachelor series illustrates this perfectly. It’s sad. If women had more self-esteem, self-respect and respect for one another, men would have a lot less to choose from. As it is now, they can divide and conquer.
Nat
This post made me laugh – have you been in my head? I have been griping about work too now that I have NC’d the AC. Then I realised that I have control over my work too. When I get stressed I tell myself “I can do this, slow down, rushing makes it worse”. When I think someone is bitching about me, I say to myself “Forget it, this is not important. I only have to keep my boss happy. They are just having a bad day.”
I think the absolute number one marker of healthy self esteem is the ability to make decisions that affect your life. How you approach work, what kind of friends you will have, whether to dump. We aren’t just bits of fluff being blown around by external forces.
It is hard to change but we change by .. changing and making decisions, not by waiting for some mysterious set of circumstances that will make our lives better.
I KNOW what it’s like to feel helpless, to be trapped by sexual desire, love, abuse, addiction (I used to smoke too!), stress depression, anxiety, loneliness, isolation. My life has changed 100% for the better. I did it myself (with counselling and this site)!
And step one was complete and utter NC on all the assclowns and EUMs. I know how hard it is to accept but they they really have all got to go.
Thank you Natalie – you seem to have a knack of writing the spot on article at the right time. I’ve just had a terrible weekend with a man who went from Jekyll to Hyde and back again about 8 times in 48 hours because of an indiscretion on my part in front of his friends. I felt so guilty about my role in it, I allowed him to control when we talked about it, push me away physically then pull me back for sex when he wanted to, behave in a very jealous way and generally make me feel like I was on a knife edge the whole time.
As I returned to normality yesterday I realised just how many red flags there are here. Yes, it’s Christmas coming up and we’d made plans, and the old me would have still felt guilty and stuck with it trying to ‘make it work’. Right now, I just feel relief that I’ve seen this side of him so early on and can move on NOW.
Timely post.I have been realy wanting to break up with my bf lately but havent got the courage to do it yet.He has such a careless behaviour lately and that is realy bothering me.We are LD and the only way we can talk is trough chatts but he have missed pretty much all of them this month.For the 6 we suposed to have he missed 5 already!!!! One time he said he fell asleep on the time we suposed to chatt,the other I couldnt reach him cause his mobile was without baterry(for two days!!!),the other he set that up but end up canceling it cause he “remembered” that he suposed to play pool that day.So he havent know what is going on my life and me on his for over a month now.And what pisses me most is that he seems to not think that what he is doing is wrong,otherwise he wouldnt keep doing it over and over again and not even bother to offer to make up for it like he have been doing.So I have to ask myself the question “How bad things do have to get” until I finaly do something about that,I realy dont know.
I was LD too and i dumped the ex EUM when he started being cold. Sorry to say it, but it’s their way of telling you they’re not interested anymore. One month of treating you like you don’t matter is enough. Call it a day. His response will tell you everything you need to know. Either he will disappear, or get better, or temporarily get better and then go back to ignoring you.
Be brave – it is worth it when you take control of the situation and do what is right by you.
Anusha, you are truly lucky that you are in a LD because it will make it SO much easier.
If your relationship consists of online chats and he can’t be bothered with even THAT small level of contact; if he hasn’t cared to ask what’s going on in your life for over a month, I don’t mean to be rude but I’m really struggling to see how he even deserves the title of “boyfriend”.
Do you think you could do better than him or is this all you deserve? Be honest. Lots of love, WL xx
WL
It’s not necessarily easier, I was in a LD relationship with my ex and it completely broke my heart. Even when I didn’t see him for six solid months it still felt very immediate. The particular circumstances aren’t as important as what it is that keeps us hooked. And that’s pretty much the same for all of us: low-self esteem, indecisiveness, illusions, hopelessness, pessimism, depression, anxiety, delusion etc. It’s not great to admit to but at least it’s something we can address.
Thanks girls.I dont know why I dont get out and I ask myself that question everyday.I keep telling myself if he does that one more time Im out here and than he does again and I just think “Ok I will give him just one more chance and next time I will be realy out”.Is crazy I know but for some reason I just cant take action.I have never experienced healthy love before and until I found him I was alone most of my life,I guess Im afraid that I will end up alone and never find anybody better if I leave him.
@Grace — well I’m not trying to set up a league table here but I will hold firm to the opinion that it’s easier for a young woman to get rid of a man she never sees and whose only contact is the occasional online chat than a woman who has been married to the AC EUM for forty years and has nowhere to go so cannnot leave.
@Anusha
it’s not about what he thinks. It’s about what you think. If you think he is doing something wrong, if you think he is crossing your boundaries, then he IS doing something wrong; he IS crossing your boundaries.
I used to feel bewildred that my ex did not seem to think he was ‘doing anything wrong’, at least he had a lot of dubious excuses about phones not working, email systems having gone down… and I went to great lengths and a lot of stress trying to explain to him what he was doing wrong thinking if only I could make him understand… blah… blah. I failed to appreciate that if I was uncomfortable with his behaviour then I did not need his ‘permission’ or his understanding – what I needed to was trust my own gut and act on it -not wait for him to ‘get it’.
By the way – they DO know they are doing something wrong!! They are hoping you will be daft enought not to notice or to accpet their paltry made-up excuses. In short, he is talking crap, he knows that already and you know that already, so it’s up to you to either accept it – and it will only get worse – or decide he is crossing boundaries and act.
Good luck
Thanks for your reply.I dont think I can acept it so I guess I have no choice but opt out.I understand that he is sick of chatts and all that stuff by now since we been in a LD for years now and I have been trying to be understanding but that is just too much.To me chatting once or twice a week like we were doing is pretty resonable.So I cant be happy with no chatts at all(for over a month now) and our comunication consisting pretty much in just a short text wishing each other a good day.I need and want more.I want to be able to talk about things that happens to me,to share my good and bad times.I think that is how a relationship should be and that is what you should do with your loved one.And not this distant thing we have now where none of us know what is going on each other’s life much.I know you said that I shouldnt wait for him to get it and I see your point but I was thinking about writing him a email explaning all that Im bothered about and why before ending things.Like to give him a chance to think about what he has been doing and maybe do something about it.What you think about that?
Anusha, we (as in me, you and readers of Baggage Reclaim who are familiar with your situation) have gone down this road many times before. This guy has not changed and your relationship hasn’t progressed because it’s a rather awkward long distance situation. I think if you address other aspects of your life you will find it easier to let go of this illusionary relationship and forge a healthy, genuine connection. He is the same as he’s always been. If it hasn’t progressed by now, it never will. It’s you that needs to change. This guy is in a very cowardly way telling you that he has his own life and thinks he’s letting you down gently. Talking by instant chat just isn’t enough to sustain a relationship. You’ve already discovered this. Stop focusing on him & focus on you and your own life. You know this already though – you have to make the decision to do something. You have given him many chances to think. You have sent many emails.
*** I want to add Anusha, don’t sell yourself short on this guy. What you haven’t realised that you are lonely with him anyway. What would really change if you dumped him? You’d stop burning up energy on him and have to use it on you.
I see you are back Anusha….with the same old tale and the same old man. Many of the posters here on this blog are too recent to remember you….but i certainly do.
I co-sign everything that Natalie has said to you. For years now, you have been wasting your life on a “relationship that does not exist”. ENOUGH ALREADY.
Hi Natalie,just wanted to say that I have invested on my life lately.I got a nice job that I like and that I have been progressing on lately.I also met lots of new people there and made some good friends.So I have been working on that and hopefuly that will give me the strength to do what I need to do.Thanks again for your advice,it has been realy helpfull to me.
This is great news. And don’t say ‘hopefully’ it will give you the strength. Say ‘It will give me the strength…’
I am glad you are taking the steps to invest in your life and move beyond the computer where you wait around for this guy. You have a job, you are forging real connections, so it is time to ask yourself why you are holding on to something so illusionary?
Let me tell you something – when someone is interested in you and wants to be with you, they don’t resist you. There is absolutely no genuine reason on earth why your relationship should be instant chat based. With technology like Skype and the wonder of real energy, care, and commitment, you guys would be on the phone and he would be moving heaven and earth to keep up what little contact you have. And it is little contact. It’s like a penpal relationship gone sour only you’re waiting by your computer to hear from him. I implore you to stop waiting for this lazy man and to stop having lazy communication in this lazy relationship. So many people are rooting for you Anusha, but you have to root for yourself, otherwise next year, the year after and beyond we’ll still be talking about this guy and you’ll still be doing what you’re doing.
Thanks Natalie,I have been thinking hard about all that you have been saying.And I get your point but one question wont go out my mind.If this was a “normal” relationship and he was behaving like that I would have no doubt that he isnt interested but since it is a “online”(at least for now) one I get unsure.I mean,just because he isnt into chatts it is right to assume that he doesnt realy love me?What if is to this whole “online” thing that is resisting and not to me? I realy would like to hear your opinion about that.
Anusha
It’s you. Long before the internet my first boyfriend, went to Hong Kong for three months. That’s a long way. Without fail, every week I got a long letter.
And even if your boyfriend was resistant to a long distance relationship, what are you going to do about it? If there’s been no talk of him moving, or you moving at some point then the two of you are just coasting along in inaction.
Anusha,
You’re making so many excuses, for him and you!
You know this has been going no where for a very long time, but refuse to let go. I don’t get it?????
Anusha, I think you’re getting caught up in the nitty gritties of the means of communication. While how you conduct your relationship can speak volumes about the authenticity of your relationship, the fact that he may not like instant messenger is not an excuse for his behaviour. If he hates it that much but loves you, he’d find another way to communicate with you. The fact is, in saying that it’s not a ‘normal’ relationship, it is time for you to acknowledge that this in itself is a problem. You’re either in a relationship or you’re not. Once you start getting into splitting hairs about normality, you open yourself up to dining off bullshit. If he is resisting the primary mode of getting in touch with you and has not come up with an alternative solution, it’s not just the internet he’s resisting. There are many ways to say you’re not interested – he’s doing a lot of them. Many people have long distance relationships and while a lot of them don’t work out, plenty do – I know enough people who got married and are still together. They require effort and nurturing and the fact is that if one or both parties do not put in the effort to maintain the contact, this is tantamount to not putting in any effort into the relationship. No matter what type of relationship you’re in, on or offline, they need love, care, trust, respect and effort. This man is not behaving like someone who loves you – if he was, he would never, ever, ever leave you in any doubt about his interest or commitment to the relationship. Stop blaming the internet. That’s got nothing to do with it. You have made hundreds if not thousands of excuses for this man Anusha. It saddens me that after all this time, you’re still making excuses – you should not have to make excuses. Period.
Thanks Natalie and all the others for the comments.And yes I know that not how a LDR suposed to go.My brother is on a LDR now too and he behaves a lot different than my bf.He does whatever it takes to be sure that he get to see his gf every 2 weeks and he contacts her several times a day even when they are apart.He shows trought his actions how important is for him to be with her and I might say that unfortunaly I cant say the same about my bf.Anyway your(and from all the others) comments have been realy helpfull to see my relationship in a different light,thanks again for that.
Natalie, can you tell me Please if you are going to write an article about Closure? I really need to rid of my AC for good, NC did not help me, as I keep letting him in:-(
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/coping-with-and-moving-on-after-a-break-up-commandment-10-thou-must-close-the-door-and-move-forward/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/post-breakup-to-debrief-or-not-to-debrief-that-is-the-relationship-question/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/whats-your-hook-understanding-what-will-stop-you-from-letting-go-of-a-relationship-or-draw-you-to-it/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/what-hooks-you-in-your-relationships-understanding-the-combination-of-hooks-picturing-potential/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/unhooking-yourself-from-the-picture-of-your-relationship/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/understanding-what-your-trust-points-were-in-your-shady-relationship/
HS
What happened? I thought you got a new number and cut him from your life???
Honey, you know this man has NOTHING to offer, but misery!
Have you sought counseling?
Thank you, Allison. I went counselling couple of times, I was strong enough and I didn’t change my number. I am trying to move on now and even arranged few dates next week. I was single for 7-9 months and it is time to start to look for someone new and emotionally available! Hope you are doing well:-)
HS,
I wish you all the best!
Anusha. “I want to be able to talk about things that happens to me,to share my good and bad times.I think that is how a relationship should be and that is what you should do with your loved one.”
You are 100% correct, that is exactly how a relationship should be. Please go out and FIND that relationship. This guy does not WANT it with you. He’s had a million chances and he could not make himself clearer if he wrote you a 100-foot high banner saying “I am not interested in you”. Your final comment reveals that you think he will suddenly change. That never happens. Good luck in breaking off completely.
Been here to watch as well… ditto on Nat and Sweetie187. Nothing sounds new to me in YOU perhaps a change of scenery but how about one that comes from inside…
its really hurtful when they forget and are just so god dam out of reach which is of course cos they are running cold. it is enough to drive you to insanity. and it will really begin to effect your self esteem. Anusha, you are doing all the work in the relationship, that’s what it was like for me too and it feels soo wrong when the guy doesn’t do what he is SUPPOSED to do. and really, its what they dont do that’s the problem!!! Anusha, i think it’s time for you to bail on this relationship. you will be glad you did and the because of what you have learned here you won’t put up with it again and your next relationship won’t be hard work for you. IT SHOULDN’T BE hard work. hope this helps you Anusha.
Thanks Natalie and all the others for the support and wise words.Every day Im becoming more and more convinced that I should break it off.Sometimes I wonder if maybe once we are together in real life(we have plans to meet as soon as I can get my holidays and if that goes well to move in together) things will be diferent but I guess I might just be fooling myself to continue invested.He was a bit self centered and wanted things on his terms and that doesnt seem to have changed.And Im tired to have to keep doing mine and his part and to have to keep chasing him around to make sure that he participates.You are spot on Audrey,it shouldnt be hard work.
Anusha, you can do it- let it go. i’m behind you 100% as are all the lovely ladies here. .xoxox
Anusha,
The same behavior has been going on for years and nothing changes. What are you waiting for?
There is no relationship here.
Anusha, it is me Happy Soul if you remember me?
I am/was in the same board as you…and I am very embarrass to admit that I am still not over of my AC… Natalie and Sweetie187 gave us so many advices in the past and encouraged us to gave up our ACs, we did listen and tried, but it didn’t work out for you and me:-(
I had NC for 7 MONTHS but last month when EUM contacted me, I was stupid enough to respond it…and you think he changed after 7 months? NO, HE DID NOT, he is the same AC…IF he cannot change, I have to change. This time is for good, no more…Anusha, you should do the same, unfortunately our guys are not going to change, we have to rid of them for our own sanity!!!
Hey everyone. Off topic a little here, but I need some outside opinions. I am friends with an ex EUM. I no longer have any romantic feelings for him (in fact I wonder why I was attracted to him at all) but like having someone to hang out with every now and then, and he is an okay guy . He has brought up “seeing eachother” again, but I said straight up that I was not interested in a romantic relationship with him and was still recovering from the breakup with the AC of four years. He is well aware of my breakup and the abuse that occured and has tried to be supportive. The other night he invited me over to cook dinner with him and watch a movie, which we have done several times. I agreed and went over. After dinner he said he didn’t want to watch a movie, lets watch a TV show instead. Okay. Well, he puts on this show that is a naked girl answering sex questions, with clips of her porn movies through out the show. I watched it for about 10 minutes and then asked if we could watch something else, as I wasn’t really that into this show. Personally, I found it stupid and kind of gross. I didn’t say that, but just said that I didn’t really like it and it made me uncomfortable. Well, he watched it for almost 30 more minutes. I got on his laptop and basically ignored the show after that. He said why are being so distant? I explained that I wasn’t comfortable watching “soft porn” with him and that I thought he was being rude, since I was a guest in his house. He said in a condescending way, “why are you uncomfortable with it?”. I just am. He said that it worried him that I couldn’t watch it with him and that I had issues. I replied that I didn’t think it was a very nice thing to say and that he was being rude. I left without saying anything else. I have not answered his messages since. He didn’t apologize, but said we should talk. I know from the past that this guy tends to see things only from his own point of view and don’t want to be told his opinion of my “issues”. I asserted my boundaries and he tried pushing it. I opted out of the evening. Am I being too sensitive? I always had blurrred lines when it came to my boundaries, but have been learning how to be m0re assertive and enforce them, although am sometimes feel uncomfortable enforcing them. Honest opinions anyone?
You’re not being too sensitive. You didn’t want to watch it and unless it’s what you’re into, why would you watch that for recreational tv with a ‘friend’. If anything you need to be questioning your taste in friends. What he did is point blank very disrespectful. You don’t need to justify why you don’t want to watch it and he has some brass balls accusing you of having issues. He side stepped you into watching soft porn when you thought you were coming to watch something else – asshole.
Kinder than me – I would have left immediately and slammed the door. Nat’s right – he is an asshole not even worthy of being a “friend”.
I agree completely. His behaviour was at best very disrespectful and at worst abusive. He should have switched off the minute you asked him to (you should have asked him sooner than you did and when he did not respect your wishes not to watch porn with him you should have left straight away – I am not judging you though! xx). Don’t be friends with him anymore – not ever – not even a wee bit. He is not a friend; he is treating you like you don’t matter.. and please…you do matter… you are allowed to say no and mean no. Take care F
well said natalie – brass balls is right!
Latest on the porn guy. I finally answered his email requesting to talk about what happened. He didn’t offer an apology in any of his messages so I got the gist that “talking” about it meant me taking part of the blame and him minimizing what he did. I replied that I know what happened, that he was disrespectful and I left his house when he continued to disrespect me. Well, he replied he thought my reaction was because of my emotional issues and that he thought I judged him based on my past (my recent four year relationship with an AC). He also said that he ignored me when I asked him to turn the channel, but that he wasn’t being rude. Where is the logic in that? This has turned into a banter back and forth. He said he was sorry he hurt my feelings but followed that with how I had emotional issues and that my feelings were the problem , not his actions. Wow, Natalie, these guys are so predictable once you learn about them. I caught myself trying to explain it to him over an over (my old pattern) trying to get him to see it from my perspective when a light bulb went off in my head. I am trying to over explain something he just doesn’t want to get. Quit beating a dead horse. I said that the real issue here was why he would continue to watch a show that I said more than once was making me uncomfortable. He said he was just trying to have fun with me and hoped that it would lead to us having sex. Like that makes it okay all of sudden. And so it begins. Thankfully I don’t feel any emotion towards this guy, so it isn’t hurting me at all but instead it makes me look at him with more disgust than ever. He asked if I was willing to end a friendship over this. I said that putting me in an uncomfortable situation and persisting after I clearly said I didn’t want to watch it made me question what kind of friend HE was and that the true agenda was HIM having fun.. He won’t back down though, but what did I expect. You said that when we learn to be assertive about our boundaries, some people will resist. I used your words and said “I am not that woman anymore.” It also is true when you say that if they disrespect you in a relationship, they will disrespect you in friendship as well.
jennynic,
Stick to your ground. YOU are right. He is a tosser. His behaviour was disgusting for all kinds of reasons.
Here’s my advice: if you have call to speak to/email him again – tell him you have asked, justifiably so, for an *unqualified* apology for *his* behaviour and you did not get one; that all you got was an ‘argument’ about it and that you are not going to argue with him further to get the apology which you are due. Then tell him that you will not be friends OR LOVERS with a man who makes a woman watch pornography when she does not want to watch it and who does not see anything untoward with that kind of behaviour towards a woman.
This man is NO friend of yours. Be careful of him. x
Thank you Fearless. You are right. I like your suggestion about telling him I will only accept an unqualified apology for “his” behaviour and not an argument about it. I am over hanging out with him anyway. Who needs that kind of bullsh*t. With my new eyes he looks pathetic to me. I gave him plenty of chances to show integrity but he doesn’t have very much. I am so sick of these guys.
Jenny you did good, don’t second-guess yourself. I wouldn’t want to watch that rubbish with anyone. But I have to disagree that he is an okay guy. He sounds like a sexist immature controlling pig.
Thanks guys. It feels good to not take any crap. This having boundaries thing isn’t so bad, just takes a little practice. I thought he would be a different guy if we stayed just friends, but ultimately, Natalie is right, they don’t really change.
Seems obvious to me he wanted you to watch it because he (mistakenly) thought you’d be as turned on by it as he is, and he’d get sex.
I agree with the others you should have been much harder on him. Soon as he switched it on you should have said (good-humouredly) “Yeah I can see why YOU’D like that, but I’m not watching it. I came to watch a movie, so put on a movie or I am out of here.”
It’s such a pity that we women (me included) have been SO indocttrinated to be polite when a guest in someone’s house that we feel we have no right to say anything in these situations.
Still you have learned a very valuable lesson that will see you through life, so be thankful for the lesson!
Well someone once told me this when I was trying to figure out “when enough is enough” and its so true. Being in one of these relationships, where I’m always waiting it out for him to come to yet one more of his selfish decisions and then in 2 days or 2 weeks to call me and yup, I’m right back to where I was…waiting for the “I’m having anxiety, I’m not where you are. I don’t want a relationship, I don’t want to love anyone and I don’t want someone to love me either.”
The last time this happened I sort of mocked him and said…are we breaking up again then because I already know the drill. He just looked at me and for the first time he didnt say anything, he just looked at me.
My wish at that moment was I hope he can see what an asshole he is, but I’m sure he just felt he had more time to use me.
And though I think I’m strong, I’m not. I’m waiting for me to get to that point, which with every stupid breakup it pulls me closer to reality and sanity to let go once and for all.
So I’m almost ready to hand it to him with goodbye for good….that when it will be…..
Enough is enough because the hurting hurts to much!!!!
Lilly
Lilly: “…Enough is enough because the hurting hurts to much!!!!”
This is an interesting comment. I think most of us on here recognise it, in that we all make the move to get out when we feel they have hurt us “too much” and we just can’t take any more
Grace touched on this recently, with something like “it’s not supposed to be an endurance test”!!
What we need to realise – and I include myself in this – is that we should be taking serious action when *it hurts* and not be hanging in there until it “hurts too much”.
It’s not supposed to hurt! If it hurts we should be seeing red flags the size of Australia!!
The threshold is this… when the pain they inflict on us is greater than the pain we inflict on ourselves THAT is when we will walk away. If that were true – the strategy then would be lessen and hopefully eliminate the pain we inflict on ourselves – actually love ourselves – thus eliminating any threshold for them to exceed… beat em to the punch and kick em to the curb.
Another spot-on post, Natalie! And very timely for me since I’ve been thinking about this very issue and how it relates to so many things. I realized that my threshold of what I expected and comfortably accepted was WAY too low in all areas — work, money, relationships, health, etc. And clearly it’s connected to self-esteem and a positive lifeview. I’m working hard to change my beliefs and raise the bar in every aspect of my life. That’s a task in and of itself. But then, as you so correctly point out, it’s just as important to walk the talk and follow through with appropriate action.
Thank you for this post. It is, as always, perfectly in keeping with my personal journey. After finally having the face to face mediation with the ex AC I work with, it was a very disappointing failure from a professional standpoint, although kind of a success from a personal one. It ended with no agreement and no improvement. I was unwilling to give up my right to have my own reality and to disagree with his interpretation of things and version of history. He called me a liar many times and then the whole thing just ended.
Professionally, not good. I resigned the next day. As this post illustrates, it had simply gotten too bad for me to continue and I was not interested in seeing how much worse it could get. I did it for me, my well being and the good of our organization. There was simply no way we could have continued to work together productively or even civilly. I do not take it as a personal failure – I tried my best, did my home work and arrived willing to admit my role and apologize but it was not enough. He wanted me to accept blame for things that were not my fault. I also stood up for myself for the first time in my life, stood up to him for the first time in the relationship and did what was best for me.
I am not willing to let the situation deteriorate, nor do I need it to. I recognize that things are very bad and accept the situation. I cannot change it, or change him and I have changed myself in the positive ways I need to. It is time to move on. That I have to sell a house I love and leave a job I love is sad and this was not a decision I made lightly. But, as Natalie says, I don’t need a house to fall on my head to get the message and I don’t just want to be the one in the office who complains endlessly but is unwilling to take positive action to change it. It isn’t even about the relationship anymore – it’s about recognizing what is best for me in the long run, even if it is uncomfortable in the short term.
Boy, did I need this post today.
Debra, I’m deeply saddened on your behalf because I know how hard you have tried and I know how much you love your job. I, however, totally admire your courage and resilience to do the right thing by you. This guy is a f*ckwit and what he has done will have huge repercussions for him professionally. It totally isn’t a failure and you’re growing out of this situation. He on the other hand will no longer be able to blame you for his problems. He can continue deluding himself but the fact is, others know the truth. You know your truth and that’s really all that matters. Sending you much love and hugs. If there is anything at all I can possibly do to help, just let me know x
Change can be so hard, but change can be just what we need. The possibilities are endless and it’s a big world out there. Pay attention for the open doors that will start showing up. Take a deep breath and let it out, you will be better than okay. Be proud you stood up for yourself and took a big step forward, keep that momentum and go with it. Good luck to you!
All the best, Debra! We’re all cheerin’ from the sidelines. The fact that he could not ease up even with structured mediation shows just how unhealthy and childish his thinking is. It’s not scary to let go of some parts of our reality and to see things more holistically for the sake of group cohesion when you’re healthy and well-socialized. Of course, abandoning one’s version of reality for the sake of the group = being a doormat (and leads to serious personal trouble), so it’s a tribute to you that you stuck to your sense of what is right and fair. But there is a middle ground, which you were willing to find, while he just wasn’t up for joining you there (because he is a baby). I think you’re doing the right thing, as hard as it is. So much newness and possibility, and a better context for you to make good choices for yourself, and just be away from persistent hurt and negativity!
Debra
You’ve made a massive amount of progress in a short period of time. That first step is always the hardest, after that progress accelerates. It’s a snowball effect. There is something wonderful for you out there – and now you are free to find it.
From following your posts I can tell you’re a terrific person. You haven’t deserved this nonsense but good for you for taking control – onwards and upwards!
Debra – How awful. I couldn’t stop thinking about your post. The guy sounds beyond a Narc to a psychopath (there’s an excellent book by Robert Hare called Without Conscience that explains these people – it’s a real eye opener). Natalie is right though, he won’t have anywhere to hide now that you have moved on with your life. This leaves him behind to be exposed for what he really is. Meanwhile, you are on the verge of a whole new life which is both scary and hopeful. I hope you keep posting here so we can cheer you on!
The pain you feel initially even is a warning sign–imagine if you put your hand on a hot stove would you hold it there, and keep feeling the intense pain until your fingers burned off? Lol why do we think this is a good thing to do to ourselves in relationships!!
Pain and the memory of pain triggers that part of the brain that gets ready for conflict and competition, which, being arousing, means that we have heightened feelings when we’re around these people who are bad for us. We’re confusing flight or fight for other feelings. It’s a bit screwy, but they’re the mechanics of it.
I guess I’m an old timer too Anusha. I am nc for 9 months. I have ignored his contact. He is in a relationship with another that started very soon after I broke it off. It’s tough but WAY better. Honestly, I can’t understand WHY you are still dealing with this inept loser fool ac eum. I remember you well. Please get out. I agree 100% with Nat and Sweetie. We are here to support you IF you can see the reality. Hugs. Ramona
Thanks for the support and kind words Ramona 🙂
Ramona, well done, I am proud of you! Great to know that you are doing well:-)
Happy Soul! what happened – why did he contact you after 7 months? I have to say thanks for saying you are proud but I still feel awful. I am turning 45 tomorrow 🙁 I’m scared. I know I was miserable with him but I am lonely. Please tell us what happened with you and your AC…..
Ramona
Happy Birthday dear Ramona!!! I wish you all the best! Age is just numbers:-)
About me: Can you imagine, I was so strong for 7 months and gave all this up for one stupid call from AC;-( IF he ever contacts me again, I already have a message for him: “Please delete my number and never contact me again”…I don’t want to change my number, why should I? Pity, we don’t have a forum here, I cant really tell my story, but just want to say Ramona, he crushed me and humiliated me yet again:-( NO MORE, enough is enough….I miss you and our girls!
Many more things come to the surface today. Superficiality is what I am and what I’ve lived. I really couldn’t see the forest for the trees. It’s all internal, the core beliefs that I have and what was important to me has got me to where I am. I was looking at the external and it was the internal that I was missing. I was missing in the equation.
I have not been in reality; I may have had doses of reality, but ignored it to avoid the pain of the reality. Either that or I morphed it, tried to justify it all to avoid the reality of the pain it was causing me. By the time I see reality, it’s too late. I created all these illusions to try and get what I thought I needed from someone else. You can’t get what you need from someone else that you don’t already have yourself. I need to feel this pain. Self examination is painful in this case. Taking responsibility is painful in this case. I need to get internal, I never have, not really, it was just another illusion. Avoidance, that’s been my game. Refusing to do what needed to be done, the pain and the reality of it all will set me free.
Hopeful, your comment above reflects me too, in many ways. I think these relationships require an awful lot of burying the head in the sand.
One thing that surprised me when I started reading Nat’s site and all the comments was just how intelligent and competent the women on here are. None of us are stupid – quite the reverse, so I think we have known all along that the relationship with our problem man is crap, for so many reasons – we have also known why it is (At least I know that I have always known – had never heard of EU but I knew he was emotionally disconnected with himself, contradictory and deceptive etc.) At those times when I could not ignore it I tried to end it – I finished with him many, many times – and he disappeared on me many, many times.
But ultimately we simply choose to ignore it… and so it trundles on and we continue to cling on by the finger-tips. We do not want to look too closely at him or at oursleves because we are afraid of what we will find and have to face.
Don’t be afraid!! We were, if you like, strong enough to endure these men, or these relationahips for so long – we are actually strong women here. We have to reach for that strength, redirect it and make it work for us and not against us!
Where there is life there is hope – and strength – and life is all around us! Things are looking up for you, Hopeful! Keep going x
Out of relationship insanity, but still in work insanity. Nat I know this might not be the forum but can you post a little more about work insanity and self esteem and also the relationships that might get used as a buffer to curb work madness?
Yes I will do!
I have a friend who is never able to be single for long. She jumps from one guy to the next with very little time in between. She is never the one to break off the relationship , no matter how bad the treatment. And let me tell you, she was not valued or treated well by any of these men. She has also been in a few abusive relationships. I felt she developed this pattern in highschool and never changed. I saw early on that she did not pick men that valued her, and she also put up with horrible behaviors and treatment all for the sake of having a man in her life. It seemed to me ANY MAN that would take her would do. As a result she has 3 children with 3 different men. I feel for her that she is so dependant on a man to make her happy, yet they provide nothing to her, they only use her. They have also not been supportive fathers to her children.
I am still healing and recovering from discovering that I was lied to and manipulated by a narc. I was on my own investigation for a while in search of answers about who he really was and just trying to nail down what really happened between us. I am surprised at the low level Narcs stoop to manipulate and get what they want, sure Aholes prob do the same type of things, but the narc is so sinister. He used me and demeaned me and dissapeared. It has been a painful road the last few months. I feel I am recovering but somedays my mind goes back there, although I really desire to move forward somedaysI feel I am at the mercy of my brain, and it holds on to these memories. For a long time I just wanted an apology. It is hard to find yourself loving someone, a person that has no value for you, has no remorse. I can’t believe I fell for such a monster. I can’t believe it all happened. But unlike my friend, I CAN take time between my relationships and I feel really skiddish in terms of my own judgement. I know I didn’t listen to my guy and I ignored red flags so I wonder how off my judgement is if I was involved with a married man without knowing much worse a Narc?!
Sometimes when the blinders come off you realize that seeking to be loved and valued and having love reciprocated is a strong motivator. I was wrong and I am still hurting even if I now know the truth about him, it still hurts. I intend to take a long break from dating and even when I do find someone I am interested in, I will really work to do it differently next time in the beginning phase, as I feel scared that I can’t trust when a man tells me he loves me, as the Narc was so convincing of his feelings, yet he values no one and hurts most everyone that enters his life. It is up to me to figure this out, up to me to find someone worthy next time around.
I know that things had to get real bad and in my face before I accepted it. Seeing the reality of him and what he is really slapped my face. My reactions were totally emotional. It felt BAD to be near him. I felt physically sick, wrenched inside but listened to his manipulation of me and I acted as an unattached person, listening, but not wanting to accept the person he is because it was so brutal to see- but then it slapped my face over and over – his words, his lies, his declarations of love (puke) his immoral behaviour.
Although I contained all my feelings in his presence it came out at a later stage when I had time to reflect and I was away from him.
My reaction was to go NC. I told him by a voicemail message. I wish I hadn’t but that’s the person that I am and it wasn’t to get a response from him it was to actually hear myself say it. I haven’t been in touch since and he’s giving me the silent treatment, as always. The emotional abusing bastard that he is. (and that all these AC’s are).
NC is HARD. It’s TOUGH and confusing. I’ve been looking at photos and remembering, that’s been hard too. When I’m idle it’s hard, when I’m busy it’s easier.
I don’t miss him. I miss being able to be open to someone, because that’s the woman that I am deep down and presently I’m not (apart from those closest to me).
I feel sick that I gave my heart to this man – numb to my core.
I can’t even remember what was good about him. I’m frustrated about nothing. Even thinking about him doesn’t work for me anymore.
I looked at myself, and from an early age I was taught to be respectful of men, to listen to elders because they knew better, to show respect, empathy and sometimes that’s just a heap of BS. Listening to my instinct would serve me better than being a subservient woman to an AC!
I also find that there is a balance to bring to relationships. Respect. It boils down to respect of each others beliefs and boundaries. That’s where I’ve gone wrong, not respecting my own enough to tell these AC’s to piss off and take a long walk down a short pier.
Almost two months of NC and I’m feeling proud of it! I swear if he ever contacts me again, I’ll……I’ll……NOT ANSWER! 🙂
@Leigh. I totally sympathise with you. I feel and identify with your pain so acutely that reading the above has actually caused tears to roll down my face. You can see from my name I feel the same way you do about wasting love on the AC or EUM.
Well done on 2 months NC. Don’t throw that away, ignore him. I haven’t yet gone NC, have no idea what I am waiting for, so I admire you for doing it. Lots of love and hugs, Wastedlove.
Did I really think that I was that special? That I possessed some sort of magic that would convince him I was lovable. Who am I really trying to convince here? If it’s love I want, then I need to seek it from people that are worthy and capable of giving it. I guess I thought I had to work for it, to prove I was worthy of it. Why should I have to work so hard for something that should be freely given? It is a gift, but should only be given to those that are worthy. Is not my own love special? Should I want to give it to someone who would not value it and treat it with care, for the gift that it is? I thought it would be so much more wonderful if it came from an unlikely source. He said I never lied to you. He said just a few weeks ago that he wasn’t ready for a relationship; years ago he said he didn’t change his mind. Why would I think that he would just wake up one day and decide that he was? Have I convinced myself I’m not loveable or worthy? To whom have I proved it to and what have I proven? Is being alone all that bad? Is a relationship all that important? Does a relationship with someone prove anything? Does it prove I’m right, worthy, or validated? I go ‘round and ‘round like a merry-go-round?
I totally empathise with you, too. You are asking all the right questions! There is something about you (and me) that latched on to a man who will never love us and then clung on, brainlessly hoping he’d change, if we loved him enough. Shocking waste. We have to leave that behind, recognise what happened and make darned sure it doesn’t happen again.
Oops. It’s like what the book “He’s Just Not That Into You” said (albeit about emotionally unavailable guys): sometimes you’re just waiting for “The Big Fight to End All Fights,” when really, you can opt out at any time.
In most cases, you’re just too scared to be the one to end it.
Ahhh Happy Soul, thank you for the birthday wishes. I miss the forum so much. Sad to hear that the loser disappointed you again. Not surprising. This year has been rough for me too. Anniversaries are over now. Clean slate in my mind, waiting for heart to follow. Hugs to you. Ramona
The title says it all…
This relates to my justification for continuing to date an alcoholic. It has been 2 solid years since I walked away from this pathetic soul and dysfunctional relationship. We dated off/on for 2 years and it took me almost 2 years of Al-Anon to get to feeling like a normal person again. In the beginning my guy was depressed (probably clinically depressed) and I knew he was drinking too much. I didn’t realize how bad the alcohol problem was until I was fully involved with him and cared for him deeply. I kept thinking his drinking was a temporary problem. It had apparently been a long-time problem but one that he had tried to hide from a lot of people.
After hearing his excuses, tolerating verbal and emotional abuse beyond anything I’d dealt with before, I finally realized that the man was not only not capable of changing, but that he simply did not WANT to change. Even the thought of losing custody rights to seeing his daughter was not enough to make him change his ways. Losing me was not enough, yet he continues to drink to this day. He occasionally leaves me messages to which I delete.
I’ve moved on with my life. I sometimes still kick myself for sticking by him for so long, but I got trapped in that “I can change him” mentality that a lot of women get into when dealing with a substance abuser. The guy was charming, loving and wonderful when sober, but an absolute jerk when he was drinking. I regret staying w/them as long as I did. I’m thankful I didn’t stay longer & thankful I didn’t marry him. He did talk of marriage but knew that I’d never marry him as long as he was drinking. I’m sometimes embarrassed by my association with him. BUT, I’m a much smarter woman now than a few years ago. Life is about lessons and not repeating the same mistakes again & again.
How bad do things have to get? Well, it’s got to the point where he’s told me he is crazy about another woman and is leaving me for her… he’s still seeing me but only to use me for narcissistic supply, and he cannot even be bothered any more to thank me (like he used to) when I give him that supply.
By giving without demanding anything back; by loving unconditionally in the hope that he would one day see that and love me back; by putting up with everything he’s thrown at me, I’ve not made him love me, I’ve made him take me for granted and, ultimately despise me and see no value in me.
I’ve turned myself into a complete and utter doormat, then I’m surprised when he wipes his muddy boots on me.
Ironically, the woman he is dumping me for has huge and fierce boundaries, won’t tolerate infidelity, didn’t sleep with him. Result = he’s been holding a torch for her for months, thinks he’s in love with her. HUGE lesson for me here. I gave him everything and I’m left with nothing; she gave him nothing and he absolutely adores her.
How bad do things have to get? I think I reached it last Thursday, when I found he’s able to turn off even his sexual feelings towards me as easily as throwing a switch, after make-believing he’s smitten with lust for me. It’s just roles he’s acting, the whole time. He seems to have no feelings like a proper human being, just tells himself to play this role or that, and plays it.
Today’s email from him was just the last insulting cherry on the Totally Devalued cake.