There are a number of things that will set you up for problems and pain in your relationships, and beliefs which can hold some misguided assumptions and shady excuses in them, are at the very foundation. Looking through hundreds of comments and emails over the past few weeks, here are just 13 of the most common and dangerous. This is the tip of the iceberg, but if you’re holding onto any of these, put yourself officially on notice that change is a coming….
Which of these statements do you agree with:
1. If they’re pursuing me they’re single.
2. If they’re pursuing me they want a relationship.
3. If they say it’s not just about the sex when I ask if it is just about sex, it’s the truth.
4. All men blow hot and cold and are scared of commitment.
5. If they come back it means they’re crazy about me and want a relationship.
6. If they want to end it they’ll leave.
7. There’s a plausible, logical explanation for everything.
8. If they say sorry and that they didn’t mean it, it means they’ve learned their lesson.
9. A man will change if he feels enough for the right woman.
10. If they’re cheating there’s something wrong with the relationship.
11. If I’m putting in a lot of effort to make it work, it’s their lack of contribution that’s failing the relationship.
12. If I leave, someone else will ‘get’ them and reap the benefits of my hard work.
13. If they’re in their 30’s, 40’s, and beyond, they must want a relationship.
Read on to discover the danger of these assumptions…
1. If they’re pursuing me they’re single.
One word: cheaters.
Never, ever, ever, ever, ever, get past date 3 or having sexual contact or starting to feel emotionally invested (whichever comes first), without asking the question: Are you single? As in, are you married or with somebody, or even separated? If you don’t ask, you don’t pass GO. Simple.
2. If they’re pursuing me they want a relationship.
Unless there’s a neon sign on your forehead, nobody knows that you think that them pursuing you is equal to a relationship. That might be why you would pursue someone but you’re not dating yourself. You can be pursued for any number of reasons – curiosity, fun, to pass time, sex, to avoid the pain of getting over an ex, desire to own and control you, the challenge, for a job, money, for a dare, and yes, for a relationship.
3. If they say it’s not just about the sex when I ask if it is just about sex, it’s the truth.
If I treat you casually or badly but tell you I’m treating you well, would you believe me? Either you’re insecure/paranoid with no external evidence to support your concern, or there are indicators that have prompted your concern. If you’re asking, it suggests you don’t want something casual so make sure any ambiguity about the nature of your relationship is removed before you have sex – asking afterwards is like closing the door after the horse has bolted.
4. All men blow hot and cold and are scared of commitment.
If you believe that all men rubberband and go through an intimacy cycle (bollox), you’ll fail to recognise when you’re being screwed with. If you believe all men are scared, you’ll make it your vocation to force a resistant man to commit to you. Believing both of these things is to help you take a trip down Easy Street where you avoid addressing your own issues to ‘settle’ for a man that puts you through his menstrual cycle and dodges commitment and validate your self-fulfilling prophecy. Lots of men commit and don’t blow hot and cold.
5. If they come back it means they’re crazy about me and want a relationship.
Yes, some do come back because they’re crazy about you and want a relationship, but 1) you’ll know about it and the issues that broke your relationship will have been addressed and you’ll be loving and living instead of reading this post, or 2) some people overestimate their craziness for you and believe they want a relationship because you’re no longer together, but then can’t stump up the goods.
Some people are like that nasty kid that hurts an animal and returns to poke it to see if it’s still alive. Others return to test whether the door is open, or because they got their fingers burned elsewhere, or because they think that your expectations are sufficiently managed down enough.
6. If they want to end it they’ll leave.
Total BS. Some people won’t end it until they have something else to go to. Some have long left the relationship without actually uttering the words ‘It’s over’. Others will behave like assclowns to force your hand. Others start screwing someone else and have the best of both worlds. Make sure that you don’t rely on your only cue for a relationship being over being someone else saying it…
7. There’s a plausible, logical explanation for everything.
No there isn’t. Sometimes you’ll have most of the answers but not 100%. Sometimes people do stuff for inconceivable reasons. Sometimes people are irrational so trying to rationalise their irrationality is a clash of logics and a waste of time. And yes, sometimes people do stuff just because they can. Having boundaries is about recognising what’s inappropriate and if it’s dangerous, opting out instead of playing CSI hunting out an explanation.
8. If they say sorry and that they didn’t mean it, it means they’ve learned their lesson.
If they don’t repeat it, yeah they’ve learned their lesson, but words is not learning. Application is. Also claiming not to mean something can be the start of a slide down the slippery responsibility dodging slope.
9. A man will change if he feels enough for the right woman.
A man, in fact, anyone will change, when they want to change and not a moment sooner and especially not around someone who has shown they’ll stay anyway. Relationships are not about finding someone who has been waiting around for you to make them a better person. Don’t make problems that existed before you came be about you. Don’t be a ‘florence’...
10. If they’re cheating there’s something wrong with the relationship or their partner.
Some people cheat because there’s nothing or very little wrong with it. The normality and lack of drama make their pants itchy and they go out and rebel. Others cheat because their relationship isn’t working and they have issues with their partner, but shagging around hardly solves that. And often, people cheat because they are the problem – involving yourself with them means you’ll become part of that.
11. If I’m putting in a lot of effort to make it work, it’s their lack of contribution that’s failing the relationship.
Contribution is a subjective thing and yes, if you’re busting your back up trying to get water from an empty well, then yeah, of course it’s going to feel like you’re putting in a lot of effort. But putting effort into a well with water in it is actual work. If you’re trying to extract a relationship from an unlikely source, you need to own that choice. You or they may be contributing but it’s not what’s needed – you may be trying to fix the wrong issue. Your relationship may also be failing because you’re both incompatible.
12. If I leave, someone else will ‘get’ them and reap the benefits of my hard work.
Maybe, maybe not, but you don’t own them or their progression. You may well have put in ‘hard work’ but the relationship isn’t working. You know this but you’re reluctant to do anything about it, in case they become a better person in a better relationship with someone else. So you’d rather stay in a bad relationship and stage a ‘sit in’ on the off chance that should they ever change, you’ll be there to reap the benefits. Does that even sound remotely healthy?
13. If they’re in their 30’s, 40’s, and beyond, they must want a relationship.
My uncle died at 78 quite the ladies man and a commitment resister all of his life – many women assumed over the years that he wanted a relationship – he didn’t. Just because a woman is over thirty doesn’t mean she wants to have a baby or get married. Just because someone is 90 doesn’t mean they’re emotionally mature. I hope you get my point…
Your thoughts?
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NML: Thank you. The one that struck me the most was “If they want to end it, they will leave.” Just another example of how we think in terms of “him/her” instead of “me”. For me, all of the warning signs were there and I just thought he would be straightforward and honest with me. I now know that I wasn’t being straightforward and honest with ME, so how could I expect that anyone else would feel obligated to do the same? I truly think we show others how to treat us. These days are so much better and I am learning to respect and be truthful with myself in a compassionate way. All I saving some of that love that I used to dish out so easily and giving it to me. this website and the words in it help me to continue that journey.
@CAM BELIEVE we show others how to treat us – not just think – BELIEVE. I would rather be single and plant flowers in my garden than wait around for flowers that may never come from an unlikely source.
“Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose”
Janis Joplin
Be Free!
MovedUp: LOL. Perfectly said and thank you. I know that 20 years of bad relationship habits won’t be fixed in a short period of time, so the reminder to “BELIEVE” is well-placed. A year ago I would have found excuses why this quiz did not apply to my situation. A year later, I am stronger and wiser and I recognize the honesty of your words and others on this site.
‘Freedom is oxygen for the soul.” – Moshe Dayan
Believe it Cam, we do indeed not only show others how to treat us but also what we’re willing to up with. Keep being honest with you and you will welcome honest interactions into your life as you’ll smell the bullshit if it tries to creep in.
It seems it’s very hard to know when it’s the real thing, the healthy one. After having an episode with someone who consistently lied to me about his true intentions and the future (fast forward future faker would be the closest description) I’m quite at a loss how to recognise when the guys are actually interested in having a relationship with us. I had no idea whatsoever that he didn’t want a relationship until we came to the relationship talk (after dating each other a couple of months). I was terribly disappointed and hurt and have even doubted my reasoning for a while. And how nasty, cruel and heartless were his remarks afterwards…he was like Jeckyll-Hyde. And reading all the comments from others, it’s really scary. I have a reasonable level of boundaries, otherwise I wouldn’t have opted out after he admitted the truth. But will this keep on happening? I’m a bit shattered by this experience.
Hi Gala. I’m sorry to hear of what’s happened. Depending on how often you see and speak with someone and the interactions that are taking place, it’ll take several weeks to around 3 or so months to get a gauge on them. If it’s very intense, this can distort things somewhat. If someone is going to future fake, they’re going to future fake. While there are likely other things about them that give off signals (fast forwarding for example), depending on what they reveal during that time and what contradictions occur, it may only be when that future doesn’t materialise or you try to ‘clarify’ things that their true nature is revealed. While some Future Fakers can put on incredible act for an extended period of time, most reveal themselves within weeks or a few months. Why? Because the ‘future’ is arriving or they’re being asked things and being expected, needed, and wanted from in line with what they have faked. Hence the about turn in personality. What’s clear is that putting aside the future faking, there were *some*s signs – the fast forwarding. I don’t know what the nature of his future faking was but for future reference, the clue is in the fast forwarding. You know something’s up if it’s that there. Will it keep happening? No. Will it happen again? I don’t know but what you can do is 1) don’t get swept up and move slowly, 2) don’t decide you want a relationship until you’ve been around long enough to get to know them and determine if it’s what you want and what’s on offer and 3) treat dating like a discovery phase. You discovered and you got out – be thankful. There are many who would have stayed and tried to force the relationship they envisioned. Grieve the loss of what you hoped it would be, be glad you have your judgment and your boundaries, dust that dirt off your shoulder and try again. Obviously make sure you’re not gravitating to a ‘type’ either and that your fundamental beliefs and habits have changed too.
Thanks NML for support and advice!
It was really hard to let him go. It was like being a mother to yourself, giving yourself the necessary medicine, even though it’s terribly bitter.
I didn’t really take his fast forwarding seriously (like asking me how many kids we’ll have ect), I took it more as a compliment, and that maybe he’d like to start something.
I’ve decided to take some time off from dating, to sort out my thoughts and focus on things I love and on myself.
gala
hmm, the problem with fastforwarding isn’t so much whether we believe them (we’re not usually that naive) but that they do it at all. one of my exes mentioned marriage after three weeks. he turned out to be a womanizer, though i’d worked that out after a few dates. he may or may not mean it, we may or may not believe it but i think it shows that he’s careless. to talk about how many kids after a couple of months seems very premature to me. it makes me think he doesn’t take the matter seriously. it’s easy to see it as a compliment but it’s more of a compliment if they talk about it after a year, when you both know each other, when he’s seen you sick and without your makeup, when you’ve had rows, met each other’s family, witnessed each others bad habits, and he STILL wants you to be the mother of his children!
Amen Grace. A….men! “the problem with fastforwarding isn’t so much whether we believe them (we’re not usually that naive) but that they do it at all.”
Gala, I actually woke up this morning with your comment on my mind so wanted to follow up. Don’t get me wrong, I really do feel for you as it *is* frustrating to be hopeful about a new relationship and for it not to work, however the fact that you took Fast Forwarding as a compliment when you 1) call it ‘Fast Forwarding and 2) know that if you’re calling it Fast Forwarding that it’s a major red flag, is something that you need to address. The fact that someone *is* fast forwarding, isn’t a compliment – it’s a sign that something is very wrong and that they are either 1) Future Faking or 2) being irresponsible with an off the cuff remark/question that the other party is taking seriously. I would certainly think that if someone was asking about kids that they *would* like to start something but contextually, if someone is asking about kids in the way that you imply that he was at what was clearly an early stage of the relationship if this whole thing from end to end was 2 months, that is a red flag. He is wrong in how he has treated you but you must be accountable for your part because the truth is, had you seen it for the red flag it is, you would have put an amber light on things which would have meant you would have assessed the situation to see if there were causes for concern and to address stuff, or you would have seen it for what it is and opted out.
Thanks for your comment. You mentioned a very strong point there. I know we’re both responsible and I did go through an anger at myself at a point after I opted out, for opting out so late.
But I never really saw it as fast forwarding at that time. I took it as a sign of infatuation (he seemed head over heels, like someone who has a serious crush in almost adolescent way), but never seriously, because – who in the right mind would ask someone to marry after knowing that someone for 2 weeks…it was immensely funny. I took it as a joke, really.
I liked him because I was so relaxed with him and I felt good and I could be myself all the time without being criticised. He was really nice to me all the time, seemed sincere. It seemed we shared common values (not just interests). But then, at the end things changed. He was trying to change me, he criticised me, he was trying to make me think I didn’t understand him correctly and it turned out he was pretending all the time trying to please me (as I figure it, but he would never admit it). I was just stunned. This is basically why I’m taking time off before starting dating again – I need to figure out and fix why I was so passive (as in a shock) for 2 weeks, before I opted out. It was my bad behaviour towards me and it’s not acceptable for me (if you’re not on your side, who is? no one…). I need to sort this out, before I can tryin again.
But yes, I agree, I should have seen it and opted out sooner.
Thanks for this clarification Natalie – I was wondering at some point how long it would take to find out if someone is genuine or just making things up. It does take time! I also find that anywhere from 1 to 2 months is a good time period. I had read on your blog before that dating is a “discovery” phase and that has helped me tremendously to put things in perspective when meeting someone. Thanks also for highlighting that staying and trying to make things work is not necessarily productive and that getting out is always a viable option. Sometimes I doubt myself and think that I’m throwing in the towel too soon but this comment reiterated that I’m on the right path. THANK YOU!
Hi Nikki, the whole discovery phase is key to better dating. It’s not a case of I met someone and we’re dating therefore next step is a relationship unless they say otherwise. That’s a major assumption. Particularly with dating, if you’re already ‘trying to make things work’ and you’re not in a relationship, it doesn’t bode well *anyway*. Don’t doubt yourself – own your judgment and move on. There is life beyond them. You dated, you saw, you decided that it’s not for you. That’s perfectly fine. Yes you do have to expend some time, yes it’s a pain in the bum, but it’s time well spent, especially when you don’t flog a dead horse. You never get to know someone unless you get to know them. No-one is going to show up with a file showing their proof of relationship worthiness and so we have to do the fact finding.
I can honestly say I “used” to think this way. I have since learned that its all BS. Its a mantra – believe them when they tell you who they are – believe them when they show you who they are. No one does anything because of you thou they may try to “use” you as an excuse or rational. Others behaviour is a reflection on them not on me. My behaviour is my responsibility and I decide – I am the boss of me. Rose colored glasses smashed into bits and buried in the back yard next to Florence, DarlingDoormat, WonderWife and SuperMom. May they rest in peace.
@ Movedup … lol… Amen and me too! I’m not making excuses for ANYBODY anymore! Turns out I (and everyone else) was right all along – he IS a jerk! Just because he doesn’t believe it, does not make it so.
LOL TRUE They are usually the last to know…. belly laughs are great – if you can laugh at it – you can get through it.
Annied, I’m glad to see you’ve pressed the flush lever.
Remember – just because someone won’t say ‘Oh duh yeah I’m an asshole’ doesn’t mean they’re not. Likewise, even if everyone thinks he’s the queen of frickin’ Sheba, him being an asshole with *you* is the only piece of information that counts. They don’t have to date or screw him.
🙂 thanks Natalie … I wish I could say that one day something just *clicked* and I was done, but it didnt happen like that. It has been a very slow painful fade, but a fade none the less. Imagine his surprise when I agreed with him that we were wrong for each other and there was no point continuing to pretend. Of course, he keeps trying to get to me, but finally it doesn’t … because I just don’t care anymore. Someone said it right: The opposite of Love is not Hate – it’s Indifference!
This is so true! I used to have a problem with indifference. I felt that if I were indifferent that I wasn’t a caring person. I now understand that indifference means I’m caring more about myself and not caring about them, their wants, their needs and their BS.
It feels good to care about me, I feel less under pressure and more at ease.
“Rose colored glasses smashed into bits and buried in the back yard next to Florence, DarlingDoormat, WonderWife and SuperMom. May they rest in peace.” *snorting with laughter* Yet another stellar comment
Movedup,
I clapped when I saw that comment.
Movedup, you are too funny – I love DarlingDoormat!! I like to think of it this way: If I’m walking down the street and I encounter a mugger, is it going to do me any good to say “How dare you? That is WRONG! I would never do that!”? Is he going to drop his weapon and say “Thank God I came across you, you wonderful woman. I see the error of my ways now! Keep your wallet, have a fantastic evening, and please excuse me while I busy myself rescuing kittens out of trees.” More plausible would be for him to continue to mug me and think “I am mugging you. This is what I do. It’s your misfortune to have encountered me with your wallet in tow.”
Thank you for making me have a very hearty giggle. That’s it in a nutshell!
You are very welcome 🙂 I have really found it to be an excellent analogy haha! I am a great one for thinking “I have sketchy evidence that he was nicer to his exes and therefor I’m sure he’ll be nicer to the next one. They got/they’ll get a perfect relationship out of him! It’s my fault! Woe is me!” In the context of our man the mugger, that would be like saying: This man saw me on the street and decided to procure a weapon to steal my money. It’s something to do with me. I know this for sure because of a three year-old Facebook photo where he had his arm around a woman and was smiling. I’m sure that the next time he encounters a woman alone on this street, he’s going to gift her with a basket of puppies and a truffle sampler. I feel invalid now. I’m going down to Skid Row, finding this mugger and I won’t be satisfied until he tells me I’m great. In fact, I’m going to keep going down there until I accomplish this mission, no many how many times I get robbed or how scary it is. That’s much more productive than cancelling my credit cards, getting over being mugged and thinking “Wow, the man mugged me. He must really suck.”
Natasha, That’s fantastic & hilarious, some of your comments absolutely crack me up with laughter:-D Which is pretty impressive as I never expected to see the funny side of this, so thanks for the laughs:) I just wanna know -where do these guys all learn this sh*t??!! It’s like they all went to the same school or read the same book!!
LostEnergy, you are so welcome!! You made my day! Seriously, as a Recovering Yo-Yo Girl I can say that some of the things these guys do and say (or as Natalie refers to it, “their ridiculous utterings”) are just….absurd. Also absurd were my reactions, i.e. “He tells me he’s a great man, therefor he is! If he sets my house on fire…he still is! Because he told me so!” My feeling is that if we can find the humour in our situations, we’re that much closer to putting their foolishness behind us 🙂
I agree with you – I’m highly convinced that somewhere there is an Assclown Academy in a top secret location, just churning these donkeys out. When I first found this blog, I could not believe how similar a lot of our experiences were. Literally, I remember reading one comment where another woman (who resided on a different continent than I, mind you) had an AC that used…the exact same phrases as mine. It’s ironic, because despite all of their inflated egos…they are just not that special!
Natasha,
Too funny, but so true, thanks for the realization!
MH I’m glad you enjoyed it! I finally had my epiphany last month after yo-yo-ing for the same guy for….5 years. No one, I mean noooooo one needed realizations more than I did!
Fabulous analogy, Natasha! I spoke to my brother last night about relationships – and how he would deal with rejection, and, while there is still a part of me that thinks his perspective a little faulty since he has never had someone leave him, he earnestly said that he thinks he would just have a simple, ‘OK, thanks for letting me know, see you later and all the best’ response. He would calmly see it as something he had no control over and back himself to find someone else, but not even in a cocky, bravado way. Just an accepting, this-isn’t-my-stuff kind of way. He thinks that women make these things harder for themselves, on the whole. I am not sure how gendered all this stuff is, but there is evidence that women are far more likely to see other people’s losses/weaknesses as their own, and their own wins/ strengths as attributeable to others. It makes for pessimistic, anxious thinking!
Hi Elle! I think that is totally true. My best guy friend dated what the equivalent of a female AC for a year. After it ended he was hurt by how she treated him, he missed her, and he was sad that it was over, BUT he realized that it was a reflection on her, not on him. When I was moaning to him about my AC situation, he was like “Why would you ever think it had anything to do with you? You couldn’t have done anything differently. People are who they are, no matter what you do. Find someone who’s not an ass.” I have to say, it’s a way better mindset.
p.s. I have really, really enjoyed reading your comments on here. You have a lot of excellent insight 🙂
Oh lord, I am guilty of #2, 5, 7-9, AND 12. I always think “WELL, if I was a guy, I wouldn’t be texting/calling/making plans/engaging in the equivalent of Advanced Chronic Future Faking if I wasn’t really interested in a relationship!” I’m not a guy. I clearly some jacked-up beliefs I need to address, but I want a relationship and am willing to do the work for myself to get there. To address #9, would it make any sense for ME to say “I have some work to do on myself, but I’m going to sit around having bad self esteem and unfortunate beliefs about relationships until some Perfect Man comes along and motivates me into changing.” Ummmmmm I think not!
“I have some work to do on myself, but I’m going to sit around having bad self esteem and unfortunate beliefs about relationships until some Perfect Man comes along and motivates me into changing.” – BINGO! By empathising and understanding his position, you recognise how messed up that position is.
Thank you Natalie 🙂 Your posts on assumptions have been a real godsend to me over the past few months – I took back someone who said he’d changed on the assumption of “Well, he says he’s changed and he’s a different man, so therefor he’s done using me and disappearing and we’re going to have a relationship!” Er, no. After much future faking and blowing hot that culminated in a Houdini (at Christmas, mind you), I got “I really am a different person, but I’m not 100% ready to settle down and that’s the 100% truth.” Oy. Of course I said, “If you don’t want to be with me and you knew this pretty much from the outset…why did you need to bother me yet again? Why go the effort of winning me over? No new women around and available for a fling?” No. Response.
Thank you for teaching me that logic doesn’t figure into these things and these men are a waste of our precious time!
Also, that’s super true about empathising and understanding to see what’s really going on. I tried to look at it from his perspective as “Well, I’m going to treat her nicer, because at this particular moment in time I want her in my life for this particular purpose. I still don’t want a relationship with her though.” You can see the disconnect when it’s like: Does it not occur to him that if he doesn’t want a relationship with me, boomeranging back into my life with promises and bs that he pretty much knows he’s not going to follow through on isn’t very nice? Does he not think of how I’m going to feel when something better comes along/he thinks he’s ready for the real thing/he’s decided I’m expecting too much?
Ahhhh, how being a YYG has messed with my head! Thinking of things this way told me everything I needed to know.
Natasha,
I hope it told you he lacks empathy and you went YUCK!!!
I want a man who empathizes because serial killers lack empathy why would I want any man who has that in common with a serial killer.
MH, that was awesome! It’s soooooo true. This is why girlfriend over here needed to get real in the worst way! Thank you again 🙂
You know, you are right on target here. If there was one thing about the ex-AC that stands out among all his negative traits, it would be his total lack of empathy. He would actually get angry when I expected it – for instance, if I told him my father had just called me a horrible mother, his reply would be, “Sorry to hear.” That would be all I’d get. And if I’d stay upset about it, he’d get angry and ask why I was taking it out on him! It is all so twisted. No wonder I’m still recovering. 🙁
NML, another fanstastic post (do you ever sleep?!)…. Thanks for all the reminders. I have been guilty of agreeing with many statements but think I have wised up a bit now, and will think/ ask a lot more questions in a calm way/ act differently with future (hopefully on non eu) men. From what I gather, people that read and comment on BR are intelligent and thoughtful, hence the time and effort analysing the whys/ hows/ why nots/ meanings of all the words/ actions/ non-actions of the men they are involved with… We like to understand things. If you try and accept the answer to number 7 – that sometimes you just won’t know and people do inconveivable things for no reason, you can sleep better at night. I know that is what I have had to do lately in order to move on.
Thanks for reinforcing the lessons learnt!
Maya – I agree! My head was super crowded when I was replaying every moment, trying to figure out the exact reason why things fell apart. Friends said I looked like a zombie! Realizing that sometimes we will never get the answers made me feel like I finally surfaced from the water. We should place that investigative energy into finding ways to love and respect ourselves more so we won’t get involved with these guys in the first place. I know when I realized this I felt such great relief!
Maya and TeaTime – I know exactly what you mean! I loved it when i got to the point where I didn’t care what his reasons were for treating me like he did – i just put it down to him being a total idiot and moved on. It gives such freedom! Why waste time analyzing someone who is not worthy of you in the first place? In a way it puts them on a pedestal because you’re expending precious energy on them instead of you. Are their motives, thoughts, feelings and actions more important than ours? I think not! 🙂
Great comment Minky. Aside from avoidance, the reason why people seek reasons is to find reasons to blame themselves – i.e what is it about me that made them do this? or what could I have done differently? and sometimes it’s What thing beyond their control can I blame it on to absolve them of the responsibility for their actions? If someone is unavailable or an assclown, why do we need to know why? Either means ‘bye bye’.
NML,
I was one of the girls that my ex was hanging around with and the now girlfriend was another.
As long as he didn’t pick any of us I felt that he was the problem. I knew he had the issues with commitment, unavailableness, etc.
After I left and he picked her I thought it meant there was something wrong with me because why didn’t he realize what he lost, and come chasing for me. I was not expecting him to pick me as a girlfriend, I was expecting that if he continued to stay single like he bragged that he loved then that meant he still wanted me in the same capacity that he always did. At the time or way back when him wanting to be single and him wanting me to be single was his way of wanting me and this somewhat satisfied me, in my head, at least back then.
The post I just saw you reply to in regards to Minky, just made me realize that I spent this whole time investigating, blaming myself, by thinking what did I do to create this and how can I avoid this because I was focussed on number 9. “A man will change if he feels enough for the right woman.” I was thinking this whole time he changed for her and why not me. Again relating to the exception rule.
You guys on here, and my friends saw the truth, he didn’t change one bit he just found someone who he could fool more and get away with his bad behaviour. I didn’t want to see this because I couldn’t get past the fact that it had nothing to do with me. I come from the thinking that if is my fault I can work on it now and the next guy will be the right one because I worked out my issues. However, what everyone here has been telling me is, no I have to learn to love myself truly and stop taking the blame for everything.
Your posts keep me so real. I think you need a ebook on way back to self love. I am not kidding, your insights are phenominal.
Your right about what you said in the other post to me I still have work to do, which I already know. I am a work in progress but its better than being stuck way back in the beginning.
Hi Teatime, investigation is avoidance and you have better things to do with your time. Keep loving and respecting yourself and you won’t be interested in seeking explanations nevermind getting involved with them.
Teatime, I read your comment post on the type of guy you go for in NML’s previous post….You describe the same time of guy that I go for and get the same bad results with! I don’t know what it is, but when I have someone nice and normal in front of me, not feeling it. Why is that?! I seem to go for these EUMs, that one who is somewhere between the ‘nice guy’ and ‘bad boy’….. So frustrating! Having a bad day today and started thinking of my old assclown today. Why oh why!! I know there is nothing there for me.
Stay strong with your NC, there will come a point when it is no longer a thing where you are aware of how long it’s been since you last had contact and just you getting on with your life and not giving them a second thought!
Indeed Maya – I don’t doubt that a lot of readers are intelligent and thoughtful, but I also know that their over-intellectualising and thought expenditure is to avoid thinking about them, the area of thought where they would actually be most productive because they could apply that intelligence into action.
excellent point. It’s totally true.
“5. If they come back it means they are crazy about me and want a relationship.”
Natalie, sometimes they’re just bored? Maybe that sort of falls under getting their fingers burned elsewhere. I was dating a guy years ago who absolutely could not function without a woman in his life (always on his terms for his own purposes to use and abuse, of course).
I am new to this blog, LOVE the concept of NC…need to incorporate it into a relationship that I’ve ended but the guy keeps coming back. Thank you for the post regarding NC when you work together, that is my situation. Though I have not been as successful as I want to be (I know I will get there eventually), the communication is always on my terms now. Yes, this is heady, yes this is still unhealthy I know. But, it’s a step in the right direction, and it’s been a LONG time since I cried over him.
I think you’re right about how they “need” to have a woman around, but on their terms. My ex husband tried to reconcile with me. All of his “relationships” failed after me and he even said that he couldn’t sleep alone. When we had a “talk” about possibly reconciling, everything had to be on his terms, yet he was the one who wanted me back!
Magic:
That’s because despite their consuming need, and seemingly genuine humility when they want you back…it STILL has to be on their terms, so they can maintain control.
Indeed sometimes they are bored. Sometimes they come back just because they can. It’s like a warm, cosy motel along the highway, that lets them come back for little or no charge and slip out when they’re ready…
I did the whole working together and doing NC thing. It’s not easy and I went through the communicating on my terms thing and at some point, you just leave them to their devices and get on with your own life.
Wow!! Natalie, THIS is why I have been following your blog for several months now!! You consistently go straight to the heart(pun intended) of the matter. I just wanted to let you know that I have learned so much from you and that you are one of a very small, elite group of people who actually understands the human heart (as evidenced by your topics and advice). Thank you–you are a blessing!!
thanks Sue! Really appreciate you taking the time to express your thanks. I have a big beaming smile right now on what is a very grey, blustery, chilly morning 😉
Once again, as a man whose wife is cheating on him, I find your posts and responses quite educational. I think a lot of it comes down to ownership (on both sides) of our faults and limitations. I have my own list of mine. And to having realistic expectations. I feel for all of you have been wronged my gender. I know I have probably done many of the things referred to in the posts. Probably have had many of them done to me, also. After reading this and other blogs, I am convinced that an affair is just a form of “emotional” suicide. Which would be OK without the collateral damage. Just hope everyone can find a good relationship.
Pty – emotional suicide is never ok. Heal and learn.
Hi Pty, everything I’ve said on this post and beyond applies to both sexes. It is an incredible breach of trust for someone to cheat on you. Some people don’t know how to deal with their problems. They decide they have legitimate reasons to eff around and sod the consequences. Some cheaters are very self-destructive so I understand what you mean about the emotional suicide which of course is never OK but I also understand that when there are other people involved, that’s not a choice you should make as she’s taking you all with her on her sinking ship. The affair in itself of course is a sign that something is seriously wrong whether it’s with them and the relationship or just them. This problem isn’t going to go away on its own, so don’t avoid dealing with it though. If you want a good relationship, you’re barking up the wrong tree with your wife. If you guys are ever going to work at your marriage, that cannot happen while she continues to cheat and/or is in denial about the why’s and how’s of it or is reluctant to do what it takes.
@nml Thanks for your input. Again, as a guy, (and an American dealing with the language barrier!!!), I find this a great blog. Just wish it would notify me if people commented upon my post.
But again, I appreciate a different(i. e. female) point of view on this And I try to learn about what my gender does to mess things up.
pty
it may not seem it, but we aren’t manbashing. there’s a particular type of man we’re complaining about, not all men. and women behave badly too, i know I’ve done it. Though we may come up with better excuses ha ha. And we’re less likely to be violent but, sure, men can be victims of domestic violence too.
I LOVE #10! Let me explain how my ex-husband, the Assclown God of All Cheaters thinks:
While we were dating excuse: “because if you lived with me, you would’ve been here & I wouldn’t have had to get stoned & accidentally sleep with my roommates girlfriends sister because I was so lonely.”
While we were engaged excuse: “those profiles you found on the dating websites that I had saved on the computer were from BEFORE we got together; I just forgot to ‘deactivate’ my personal ad account.”
While we were married excuse: “there is nothing going on with Mindy, I don’t know anyone named Mindy!” Unfortunately for him, I had READ an email from Mindy that detailed all the naughty thoughts she had of him…I later found out that he HAD cheated on me with her. It took him FOUR YEARS to come clean. He only came clean AFTER I left him!!! The bastard LOOKED ME DEAD IN THE EYES FOR FOUR YEARS! However, his excuse for that was, “it was just a blow job.”
The cheating that broke my soul & prompted me to leave excuse: “I wasn’t looking for women on Craigslist” (Craigslist is a free site that lets you post anything from items for sale to sex solicitations)…then, when confronted with EVIDENCE: “I was just looking at women, I wasn’t going to DO anything with them!”…he was looking at young women who only wanted married men for one night stands who lived in Las Vegas…funny, he was scheduled to go to a conference for work in Las Vegas the next month…when I busted that lie, his next excuse was: “after being with you for 10 years, I wanted to know what it was like to be with another woman!”…HE WAS NOT A VIRGIN BEFORE WE GOT TOGETHER! HE KNEW WHAT IT “WAS LIKE TO BE WITH ANOTHER WOMAN”!
The scary part: when I basically spelled out that these women could be disease-infested and that I was worth more than catching a disease that penicillin couldn’t cure, he responded (and I’m not kidding you), “they looked clean”…Oh my god he is so damn stupid & dangerous!
Cheaters have a lovely way to absolve themselves of ALL blame, responsibility, accountability and spew a bunch of lies when confronted.
When I told him that he had made me miserable, disrespected me & our “marriage”, mistreated me, discounted my feelings & stomped all over my heart and if anyone had the RIGHT to cheat, it should have been me, he said, “two wrongs don’t make a right”…no, but they would’ve made things even…
oh magic
you couldn’t make it up!
Magic – wow! That’s just plain out there. Dudes got issues. No can’t make that up – it way beyond sh*t happens – more like can’t make this sh*t up.
Mine didn’t cheat, but he still managed to turn every thing he did to break my heart and blame it on me! Right up until the day it finally ended for good. And then when he FINALLY got out of my house and had nothing left to come back for, he started texting b/c he realized I was really done this time and he couldn’t bring me down any further. I started NC immediately. Hang in there girl. These hard times will be a good reminder later on to be grateful when we have something wonderful in our lives.
MagicPotion, that list in itself is a list of too many chances. I know he was your husband, but I don’t think you’ll be offended if I call him a tool… I appreciate that we try to see the good in people, especially in those we are married to, but this is a list of accepted unacceptable behaviour. To give a second chance is understandable – beyond that, it’s patently clear this man has an allergy to the truth and fidelity. I’m just fascinated by why you would contemplate reconciling with someone who treated you this way. Why would you believe that he’d changed when he has consistently demonstrated that he’s a hop skip and a jump away from a shag and an excuse? Engaging with this man further will have you continuing to make yourself miserable etc – don’t go there.
Holy cow! Didn’t mean to imply I was considering a reconciliation!!! I was just trying to share the crap he put
me through!
Most of what I described in my post was stuff I found out AFTER I left him; he tried to ‘come clean’ in the hopes to win me back!
I just wanted to share my twisted story to show what kind of reality these losers live in.
Oh the relief! I think MagicPotion you should wave your magic wand and disappear from his life. Kudos to you for hitting the flush handle on his assclownary!
@Magic Potion: girl, you are well rid of this assclown. Its amazing how cheaters will justify their cheating. His excuses were unbelievable!!!
WOW – I didn’t realize how crazy I was being until I read this. I stayed in a relationship for nine months (knowing the whole time this guy was doing everything but cheating to screw me around) and I STAYED because I believed in every single one of these except #10. I am now starting NC and overcoming the “failure” feelings and trying to remind myself that I’m a smart girl because it finally ended and that failure, and craziness, is doing the same thing (I took him back numerous times) and expecting a different result. Natalie, you have no idea how much you have helped and some of my friends. Deep down we knew a lot of this, but needed someone to be blunt and tell us like it is.
You’re very welcome Jen. I wouldn’t view things not panning out with him as a failure. The failure would be to stay. The failure would be to keep trying to change him. Failure is about perceiving a lack of success – in this case, trying to be successful at converting an assclown is a failure in itself. You were never going to be successful at it. Failure is about perceived underachievement – being with him is like being in an underachievers club. You want to achieve, you want to be worthy? Align yourself with worthy partners. You haven’t failed in this relationship – you’ve been successful at recognising the danger and opting out.
Today is one of those days I am weepy and really want to break NC. I read about one of his heroic good deeds and am having a hard time accepting the fact that he has treated me so poorly, that somehow I am at fault, just trying to make an excuse to contact him, I guess, looking at the good, ignoring the bad. I will go back and read some of these blogs and remind myself that I can be strong like the rest of you. Keep your fingers crossed and wish me luck, I am going to sleep soon and tomorrow is a new day to start fresh, one day at a time, sometimes it is one hour at a time depending on the day.
Nevertoolate! Even if he has done a heroic good deed, you’re not a charity case and doing heroic good deeds is very different from working day in day out a relationship. You want him to a heroic good deed for you? Be a stranger, an old lady that needs help with her shopping, put your cat up a tree, be a starving child, or a homeless person etc. But if you want him to treat you well in a relationship, that’s not a skill that he possesses. Just because someone, is for example kind to animals, kids, charity, goes to church etc, doesn’t mean that they will treat someone well in a relationship. Different skills, different expectations, different mindset.
There is remarkable power in seeing things in black and white or put a certain way. It just “sinks in,” in a way it hasn’t before. I freely admit to believing in #2, 6, 7, 9, and 11, all to my detriment.
The line I loved, and that hit home the most, is “having boundaries is about recognizing what’s inappropriate and if its dangerous opting out instead of playing CSI hunting out an explanation”. Guilty as charged! My only justification is my strong belief in #2 – if he’s chasing me, he wants a relationship. When things began to feel “wrong”, rather than use that feeling to make me ask the hard questions or to just leave, I started analyzing and trying to get to be bottom of it. Why? Because I believed #9 – if he loves me, HE will change and #11 – I’m working my ass off here, so the problem must be him.
In hindsight, it sounds ridiculous because it is. I am not sure where these beliefs come from – just because someone is paying a lot of attention to you doesn’t make it love. It might make it narcissism and they are looking for a supply source. It might mean they aren’t over an ex and are looking for you to distract them. Maybe they are just lonely and don’t see the relationship as “using you” but rather just passing time (I now see that I was guilty of that one myself at one point).
Whatever the reason, I have learned a good lesson. I have to stop looking at my relationships the wrong way. I had always assumed that the guy was doing something for the reason I would be doing it, and that’s wrong. In fact, its just plain stupid. It just never dawned on me to think of it another way before now.
I would love to say that all my problems in relationships stem from the fact that I didn’t date much in high school, then got married very young (at 18). Plain old inexperience. I suspect the problem goes alot deeper than that.
When I got divorced at 30, I began a series of what I now realize were doomed from the start bad relationships with a series of EUM, commitment phobes and 1 narcissist. I spent (some might say wasted) 15 years blaming them, analyzing the hell out of their stuff and avoiding me and my stuff at all costs. It took the devastation of the relationship with the narc to finally bitchslap me awake, but I am now and thankful for it.
Thanks too, to Natalie and this site. The slaps in the face are much gentler and done with care here, but no less necessary. This was a good one!
Debra, another great comment. One of the most difficult concepts for people to comprehend is that others don’t see, do, and think in the way that they see, do, and think. You can have boundaries, self-esteem, and perspective if your view extends beyond you. It is the narcissist within all of us that assumes everyone is in it, or being or doing for the reasons that we are. To know your own viewpoint, but to also recognise that everyone comes at life from *their* own viewpoint, makes life a hell of a lot easier. When we stay in a poor relationship, we think ‘Say it isn’t so! *I’m* not the type of person that would do X,Y,Z and I think such and such so why don’t they’. We’re not going out with ourselves. An important thing to know about assclowns and unavailables, which in itself helps us understand ourselves and know where we need to do some work:
They assume that you’re in it for the same reasons they are. They assume you have the same view of love, relationships, and themselves even if you vocally and through actions express otherwise because you’re still there.
Remember unavailable attracts unavailable, so you assume they have the same view of love, relationships, and themselves even if they vocally and through actions express otherwise, because they’re still there.
They’re thinking you want what they want and you’re thinking that they want what you want. They’re thinking that you think, feel, act as they do and vice versa.
The trouble is that even though you’re both unavailable and may share some similar perspectives, you’re ultimately different people with different motivations. To think you’re one and the same is codependency but moreso dangerous.
Standing apart and knowing who you are, your values, beliefs etc and recognising when there is a disparity between you both is key.
Hi Nat,
From all that I have learned on this site, I can say that this in my opinion, is such an incredibly valid point. I was totally guilty of this type of thinking – you said that it is the narcissist in all of us that has us thinking this way… I would like to add that it could be due in some circumstances to naivety, or ignorance as well. I think in my own case it was a combination of both narcissism & naivety, lack of introspection & “flying blind” (& a bunch of other things that are too long to mention) that had me assuming that my ex had the same good intentions that I had. I got the naivety part from a childhood that didn’t give me direction, I had no father figure influence, parents were emotionally withholding etc. So when I went out in the real world I was very green. I assumed others meant me no harm blah blah…. Live and learn though. Never assume someone has the same intentions, life goals, personality and so on. Again, this brings me back to the old Actions speak Louder than words mantra. My ex may have SAID (words) that he was interested in the same things & wanted to be with me and so on…his actions said otherwise – BUT the problem is – I wasn’t looking & those actions didn’t register with me – I was ignorantly blind in my own little world. It may have been as well that I just didn’t WANT to believe the truth- I thought if I just believe enough & just “wish upon a star” this guy wouldn’t let me down. Ok, what color was the sky in my world?!
I don’t mean this as a way to beat myself up, on the contrary I consider this healthy introspection & necessary for future success in or out of a relationship.
I can say that I have grown alot over the past year, am learning to love myself…. stumbling across this blog has been one of the best things that has ever happened…
I AM NOT THAT WOMAN ANYMORE X100.
Thanks again Natalie.
TJ
Natalie – What I am coming to accept (and what you are very diplomatically and delicately saying) is that like attracts like. If he’s a narcissist, likely so am I. Maybe not with the full blown disorder but certainly with some strong tendencies. A painful and humbling admission. I also, until your response, didn’t really make the connection about each of us seeing things only from our own perspective. When it all fell apart, he kept saying he had nothing to apologize for because he thought I understood what the relationship was. That I wanted what he wanted (casual, uncommitted, time-filler) and that was why he never felt the need to talk about it. In all the silence, I heard and saw what I wanted, he heard and saw what he wanted. Not only were we not on the same page, we weren’t even in the same library!
For the past few months, the layers of denial have been slipping away. I know it needs to happen. I wish it had happened sooner. What scares me is that, in everything I have read about narcissists (while I was focusing on him and his crap), it all says that under no circumstances can they change. If I am one, does that mean I cannot change? I hope not. I feel I already have. I have been doing the work. I would hate to think that being devoid of empathy and caring only about myself is all I have to look forward to. I am willing to do, and have done, a lot of introspection, something narcs apparently can’t do. I am also willing to accept responsiblity for myself and my actions, another things narcs refuse to do. I admit it may take me a while to really see and accept my part, but I am getting better and accept it when I do. Boy, I am a mess!
Why is it that some of the simplest things elude us until they are pointed out? Why could I see him playing games so clearly but couldn’t see myself doing the exact same thing?
Thanks.
You’re not a narc Debra. I’ve never met you but I can say with certainty based on your many comments that you’re not a narc. Trust me, after almost 7 years of blogging, I know a narc in comments/on the internet – that’s not you.
However, we all have a little bit of narcissism in all of us. Not the dangerous type, but the element of us that sometimes loses perspective and makes it all about us or forgets that there’s a viewpoint beyond ours. It’s the more selfish part of us that all of us have but not all of us let it on the loose or we learn how to temper it. That’s because you have boundaries, humility, respect, care, integrity etc. However, the difference between us and them, is that when we realise empathy is needed, we can and will do it. One of the things I have the greatest admiration for you is that you were able to step outside of your shoes and see things from his warped perspective *enough* to recognise you needed to get the hell out of dodge, but also where you could learn yourself from the interaction – he is not capable of that.
You absolutely can change. You already are. You’re prepared to be honest and authentic and to grow – that’s something that no narcissist does. He’s spinning on his wheels, pressing the reset button and totally in lala land. You are fine – remember, you’re not the same person. That and to be an *actual* narcissist, you have to have I think 5 of 9 key characteristics. And also, when we’re unavailable but not narcissists, we have somewhat narcissistic tendencies, but in being emotionally available and working towards it, that fades out. I know it because I’ve been there. (((hugs)))
@movedup– you are correct, emotional suicide is never OK. I guess the point I wanted to make was that if she did something stupid that only hurt herself, that would be easier to deal with than something that hurts me and our kids.
@pty unfortunately people do not take into account the ripple effect that their actions will have on others. Doing something stupid that only hurt herself would still hurt others in close proximity due to the ripple effect. Not taking others into consideration when taking actions that will in fact put the ripple effect in motion is exceedingly self centered and downright disrepectful and should never be tolerated. No one has the right to make a choice for another that they would not choose for themselves. Certainly not without disclosure and the option to opt out of the choice. There is too much at risk emotionally and physically. This tells you alot about their character. Believe people when they show you who they are. Blantant disregard for others – MAJOR LEAGUE red flag. Again another example of view of world not past the end of their nose.
@movedup
Thank you much for your thoughts on this. I know I am out of place being a man on a site oriented towards women, but I find looking at things from this side to be quite interesting and educational. I don’t doubt that I, among many men (and women), have the traits of an “assclown”. I think as long as we recognize it, and try to not let it take over our better selves, we will all be better off.
Great post! I’ve been following your blog and twitter for quite a while now and got burned with a number of these in my latest dating experience.
I assumed b/c he said he wasn’t just in it for the sex that he meant it – esp when he talked about not wanting to be one of those guys that say anything to get laid for 6-12 months. Now he may have wanted an ego boost and company if he felt like it – but it WAS mostly sex.
He was quite the future faker, talking about trips, things we would do/places to go, my meeting his friends, him helping with some big things around my place (he was always too busy).
I had presumed he was single because I heard about his “ex” turned out that he was seperated and not pursuing a divorce – but I was months in before I learned that. He kept disappearing and apologizing, thought he wanted to be with me because he kept on contacting me but really I was just being used to pass time with. 9 months of passing time. Should have pulled the plug months earlier.
I’m almost 6 weeks NC right now and it’s finally starting to get earlier. Your blog has really helped a lot.
Hi Cherie, well done on 6 weeks. I think you know the lesson from this one – do your due diligence at the outset and never presume anything that you haven’t got fundamentally confirmed. I will also tell you what I know with 200% certainty:
Any person that tells you that they’re not one of those guys that say anything to get laid, is one of those guys that say anything to get laid, as he proved.
Just like genuinely nice people don’t run around telling everyone that they’re nice, people who are not saying anything to get laid, don’t say *anything* and everything to get laid and demonstrate via action instead of talking out of their bums.
You are so right!!!!!
Cherie! That is my story exactly. 8 months of passing time for s*x, major future-faking (his ideas), separated and not pursuing divorce, ignoring me then blowing very hot. He finally dumped me and guess what: I was relieved! I just couldn’t tolerate his cr*p any long. The worst part was, he totally devalued me at the end and then claimed to “love” me. I should have pulled the plug the first time he went “cold” but like you, I was too far in at that point. 🙁
NML – I am so guilty of #12. I can’t get past it. It’s been more than a year since I ended it and he quickly met another and she recently moved HERE to live with him. HELP.
Ramona, the reason why you can’t get past it is because you’re living in the past and you haven’t accepted that it’s over and your reasons for it being over. The fact is that when you feel that you shouldn’t leave because you’ve invested so much or get hung up on the fact that it’s over after you invested so much, it means that aside from living in the past, your relationship was and is dead *anyway*. I know this is hard for you to hear but here’s the truth: you ended it. You don’t own this man, he’s not a possession, and you don’t have rights to him because you put in some work or even hard work. You ended it – he’s free to be with who he likes. If he quickly met another, while it’s hasty, that’s his prerogative – some people don’t like being alone. Some would rather be in any relationship rather than no relationship. And yes, sometimes, when you try to change someone, they learn their lesson in the next relationship – they don’t stay with the person who 1) didn’t accept them or 2) knows who they have been. If you are in a relationship and it becomes clear that there is a difference in values making you both incompatible, no matter how hard you work, you’re at a dead end. Love is not enough. Wanting them to change is not enough.
You have no idea if he’s a better man with her although you may feel he’s in a better relationship but it’s important to recognise that *your* relationship wasn’t working. If you haven’t moved on, it’s because you’re too busy living in the past wondering if you could have somehow made it work, but if you feel how you do, it shows that you didn’t want it to work because you truly loved him and wanted the relationship. You wanted it to work because you wanted it to work, and you felt like you had to make an investment pay off – that’s two very different things. You don’t own his progression. I’m not saying that it’s not frustrating or even annoying but what did you want him to do? Be alone? Come crawling back on his hands and knees? Transform into a better man? If it’s the latter two, you ended it for the wrong reasons. You end a relationship to end a relationship, not to manipulate them into doing what you want. If it was the first, it would only mean that you don’t really care about him or that you feel he can only be with someone if it’s 1) with you or 2) when you’ve moved on to someone else. The truth is that if you had accepted your decision instead of envying the new woman, you could have used the time to grieve the loss of the relationship, heal, and move on to a better relationship.
Thanks NML. I ended the relationship because I couldn’t try anymore and yes, I wanted him to change his hot/cold ways and be IN the relationship but I didn’t want to continue the way it was. My issue is not envy, I do not want to be in her shoes IF he is the same person he was with me. It’s just the lingering question of whether he has changed.
Ramona, I’ve been where you are. Unfortunately if they’re not IN the relationship, they’re OUT anyway. The trouble is that it *is* envy because you do want to be in her shoes IF he is a better person with her. If someone is blowing hot and cold, it’s either got to stop or you opt out. You opted out. You have no idea why she has moved there. Maybe she puts up with less. Maybe she doesn’t. Maybe she forced his hand. Maybe she didn’t. Even if they do live together, that’s no guarantee that he’s better – someone might be prepared to live with him with his hot and cold. The point is you can ponder the maybe’s but short of moving in with the two of them and taking up residence in their heads, you will NEVER know what is going on. You are trying to rationalise the irrational and control the uncontrollable. When you see your way of being happy in the relationship as being intrinsically tied to them changing, it’s never going to work out. Period.
Hi Ramona,
Hang in there! I just wanted to say that I hope you are feeling better soon.
Just remember past behaviour is a predictor of future behaviour. Just because your ex has moved on does NOT mean he has changed. IMO an old dog doesn’t like to learn new tricks period – unless a life shattering, earthquake type event happens in their lives, and the actual chance of them being introspective enough to even look at their own behaviour is at best remote. Thing is, it is just easier sometimes for people to just move on to someone new than face who they really are or have been. I also think that until you truly accept that the relationship is over you will continue with these thoughts – I know, I have been there and am still fighting my way through all this. My heart goes out to you in this, just know that you aren’t alone. Just try to process that the relationship is over and move on, you deserve better.
Hugs,
TJ
Ramona,
I know that feeling of worrying about them being better with the next person. I have been struggling with that with this last relationship I was in. Natalie gave me some much-needed advice on that in a previous post.
This reminds me of something my ex-husband said to me, while we were in the process of divorce. He said he would have liked to see if things could work, but too much had happened, and he didn’t think I could get past it. He was right. He had shattered my trust too many times, and at that point, I was unwilling to risk trusting him yet again.
Even if I had been willing to try once again, I don’t think he sincerely wanted to put in the effort to fix our broken relationship, and that he preferred to start again with someone new. A man who eff’s up a relationship to that degree, and is not willing to do the work to make it right, is probably 99% not likely to want to do the work on himself to make a new relationship that much better than his old one.
I have no idea if he is in a relationship now, since we have no mutual connections. But I would not presume to think that his new relationship is great, just because he has a new relationship. Lots of people put up with crap. After all, I was one of them.
Your post helped me remember this, and also helped me to look at my more current breakup a little more realistically.
ICan:
He said …”too much had happened” and..[you] “couldn’t get past it”? Things didn’t just happen, he made them happen, and you weren’t standing in the way of “trying” again, his behavior was.
Sure, he’d like to keep trying his old ways, and he’s shifting the blame to you. You are right not to trust him: Enough!
Wow, NML! Another gem in one sentence:
When you see your way of being happy in the relationship as being intrinsically tied to them changing, it’s never going to work out.
IF ONLY … I had believed that 4 long years ago! Then again, I held on to that belief – that he would change and see value in me as a PERSON. He sees value in nobody but himself. He doesnt value anybody as a person.
Lots of us on here believe (like I did) that eventually the ex AC is going to find “the One” and live happily ever after. They are who they are, who they are, who they are. Like ourselves, they are the only ones who make a change. They aren’t teenagers. They are set in their ways. They will not change just because they found a new flavor of woman.
So true – but even if they do move on and do change, if we work on ourselves and get to a point where WE have moved on, we won’t care what they’re doing! Trust me, i speak from experience.
There is no point in analysing an EUM or AC, or worrying about what he is doing now that the ‘relationship’ is over. I did that and absolutely no good came of it! It was only when i got on with life and focused on myself that i was able to let him go.
Still got a long way to go with regards to letting go of my baggage, but at least the EUM isn’t one of my many issues anymore.
How much trust should be one put into their gut instincts about a guy?
From personal experience, if I had listened to my “gut instincts” about any of the weenies I had dated (including the Super Weenie that I married), I would have run like hell and been right about it!
Your gut instincts are exactly that: your body is picking up on an “uh-oh” feeling and trying to get your attention. It’s picking up on clues that something is not right with the picture. Doesn’t matter whether or not you can put your finger on it- sometimes, you wouldn’t want to put your finger on it if you were wearing gloves & a full HazMat suit…
All the points are good and very true! But I have one question: it’s about assuming that he’s single because he pursues you. Ok, you can ask, but if he doesn’t have serious intentions, he is not very likely to admit being attached. Let’s imagine that he’s an “isolated” acquaintance: no mutual friends, no work or school -related contexts, and no hints on his Facebook page. 🙂 What can you do then?
It’s obviously not a hypothetical situation and if you have asked and you don’t believe him, then there’s a trust issue. Fact is, plenty of people are upfront about not being single…when asked. If someone isn’t serious, the relationship won’t progress, there will also be a lack of intimacy, balance, consistency and commitment plus there will be other red flags. If they are asked and they continue to lie, they will still be exhibiting red flag behaviour.
This is true, my AC was still married, my gut instinct told me he was, foe some reason I had a feeling he was moving out of state to be back with his family, don’t ask me why, I am not psychic, it as a gut feeling, I came right out and asked him, he admitted it, to be near his daughter, not his wife blah, blah, blah, tried to end it, pursued me fell for it, ended anyway, he had no intentions of living separately, they are together, and she probably thinks he is faithful, like Nat said if questioned they will tell you a half truth to keep you around, believe the half that is the lie, the half your gut is warning you about.
I’ve been mainly guilty of 2,10 and 13. Interesting points earlier about the narcissist in all of us and indeed I’ve often struggled to grasp the fact that most of these dudes weren’t seeing the world through my eyes. I always equated being pursued with the great happily ever after.I imagined myself being serenaded all the way to the alter, with me being the imperious prize.Consequently I was always a sucker for the prince charming types.I was too busy living out my little fairytale in my head to bother about anything as vulgar as a red flag.
Fast forward many years to my 40’s where the big misconception was that any 40 + guy was surely looking for the ONE. Never occured to me that there is definitely no fool like an old fool until I met a selection of choice idiots.50 really is the new 15 with these clowns and that’s insulting 15 year olds.I teach high school and my adolescent pupils are much more sincere and responsible in their relationships than their dads and granddads [loved the story about your uncle,Nat].
And funny that the recent posts have been about gut instinct.I’ve just realised tonight that mine has never,ever been wrong.The difference is these days I listen to it.Two days ago I posted that my gut was warning me about a guy I had recently met.Well again it was spot on.As soon as I[very delicately] broached my misgivings to him and basically stood up for myself, I didn’t see him for dust.Another 50 year old idiot going on 15.Even though it’s gut wrenching to constantly be confronted with guys like this,I’m very proud that I’ve come so far that now I stay true to myself and obey my instincts.Before I would bury my head in the sand.Natalie is right that dating is discovery but I also laughed at the idea of a new guy showing up with a file on his dating history.I wish he bloody would because I honestly couldn’t go 2 months trying to figure him out.I’d have to have him sussed sooner.Radar him with my infra red gut to suss if he’s dateworthy.If even the tiniest alarm goes off, I’m outa there.I could make a mistake I know, but that’s preferable to another trip to Assclownville.
Thanks,Natalie,for another great post.
I think that when you start to see red flag behavior, on any level, even when they are not over their ex, have unresolved feelings for their ex, questions should be asked, and immediately.
Re. # 9 and 12: I just met up with a seasoned ladies’ man from my youth, who is now married and working hard, and seems happy or at least very proud of himself. I asked him what made him get his sh*t together (with the conscious purpose of reporting back to BR!), and he said, essentially, that he decided to. He said that he had made mistakes and then realised that he should probably start to live in the way his parents and grandparents had modelled (around the values of marriage and hard work). He was tired of the messing others and himself around and decided he wanted success in the way his family had shown him, rather than in the way he had been allowed to (as a good-looking, wealthy cad). I couldn’t get much more out of him than this – because I am certain he has left a fair few upset women and women’s loved-ones in his wake and my instinct was to hold him to account ; ) – but, that links to # 7: much of the way his life has turned out is not logical or fair. He decided to grow-up and is doing the best with the context he has in order to do that. I am sure he comes up against some of his old stuff (his ego, his dubious-to-downright-crappy thinking and treatment of others), but, just as I would like to think I have, people do grow and change and they should be allowed to do that, and do that in their own time. It’s one of the most wonderful things about being alive, as much as we’d like to think that those who have wronged us are destined to stagnate. Maybe some do, maybe many do, but if they don’t, they’re entitled, just as we are, to move towards the better and beautiful. At some point, you wish that for them. It’s better to have better people around.
Hi NML.
Can you please talk more about fast forwarding, signs to watch out for? Then future faking?
Its all the things that happend to me over a year ago and even though im 90% recovered it really hurt me and messed me up 🙁
I’ve been with a future faker for 11 years….I have a nine year old and a baby on the way by a “future faker”……I was always the reason he wouldn’t and couldn’t take it to the next level with me and marry me!.
On New Year’s Eve of 2010, we had a falling out , weeks later he took my daughter for the weekend and they went to another woman’s house. He told my nine year old daughter to lie for him, but she came back and told me. I was completed devastated, I wondered what parent would tell their child to lie for them to validate their behavior. Devastated at the fact that he was playing house with me, but all along it was someone else. To top it off, at the time I found out I was pregnant! I made the decision to keep my child regardless to if we were together or not. He was not to happy in the beginning, but over the last few months, he seemed to accept it. We didn’t get back together, but he called on a daily basis to see how things were going. Things seemed very fake and I thought it was best to cut all contact and do this by myself, which he accepted. However this week, he starts an argument with me, he said to me “DIE B*tch and your bastard baby too….. he wished a bus would run me over and kill me!….
I am completely devastated, never felt so hurt, never thought he would say those words to me!……Since then, I’ve been crying every day, the words resonating through my head. I cry because I stayed, I cry because I knew the signs were there from the beginning and I still stayed, I cry because the man I thought loved me and we were each others future hurt me during my most vulnerable period. I reached the point of no return, he called our unborn child a bastard. At this point, just wishing I can get past this point of feeling sorry for my self and stop crying.
Mel
What he said to you is very cruel and mean but it’s only the cherry on an already rotten cake. He’s strung you along for nearly a decade, you seem to fall out a lot, he expects his daughter to lie, he cheats, he tries to keep tabs on you by calling every day, he gets obnoxious when you try to stand up for yourself. What someone like that thinks of you is irrelevant.
I understand that you will have practical issues to sort out around visitation and finances. I think I would seek professional advice, from a family lawyer or a woman’s shelter. They’re used to dealing with this stuff.
Don’t get stressed. Let it go. Look at the biggest positive and gift that anyone can be bestowed inthis life: you have a gift from God, a baby, on the way. You owe it to you, your baby, and to God thath this baby be born healthy.
F*ck him! He is as evil as the devil, but something innocent and pure is on the way. KEEP YOUR BABY THAT WAY. Keep his/her spirit happy and clean. Go to church, clubs, bea round DECENT people, not this jerk!
#4 – I wish I knew that years ago. I bought that ridiculous book “Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus” in the hopes of understanding what I NOW know was a passive-aggressive hot & cold boyfriend/assclown. Yes, we were young and I attribute some of his behavior to age & maturity level, but he wasn’t an idiot by any means. Therefore, knew what he was doing when he’d do something like get mad at me for no reason and stop speaking to me whenever the wind blew east instead of west. So aside from age & maturity to a small extent, no excuses for his assclown behavior. So glad that I realized that Mars/Venus is a joke.
#13 sounds like my late (great-) uncle. He was married for over 50 years, but I never knew that when I was younger because he cheated throughout the marriage until he fell ill from cancer. He was a notorious ladies’ man. It was only when he died (he was in his late 70s too if I remember correctly) when I was in university that I learned that he was married all those years. 😐 So yeah….. for some people, not even marriage means that they want a relationship. Be very careful.
“I was too busy living out my little fairytale in my head to bother about anything as vulgar as a red flag.”
Kay – that sums up the story of my ‘relationship’ life!!!
poetic 🙂