Our relationships romantic and otherwise, give us a window into understanding who we are and where we need to step up for ourselves. When we find that we’re experiencing the lather, rinse, repeat of the same type of person in a different package and the Groundhog Day of yet another situation that leaves us feeling and thinking a certain way, it’s time to ask:
What am I missing here? What am I overlooking?
When we experience the pain of a person unfolding into who they truly are and it falling short of who we wanted and even expected them to be, it’s hard to think about lessons and examining where we’re in effect repeating ourselves.
There is this fear that if we acknowledge that at times we’ve gravitated to a certain type of situation that this makes it “our fault”, when in actual fact it doesn’t; it just explains how we fit into the dynamic. It explains why we were vulnerable to this person stepping into the ‘opening’ in our life. It explains why they were attractive or activated something in us, and it’s far from being a sign that we have Jedi mind tricking abilities.
These experiences provide insight into where we need to expand our awareness so that we can grow and transcend this particular type of dynamic. It’s how we stop the disappointment cycle.
Wising up means that in adapting our outlook and supporting behaviour, the next time that that type of person or situation comes a knocking, we will make a conscious choice to choose a different path. It may not even come our way because we’re no longer a ‘good fit’ for it.
In the aftermath of things not working out, it’s hard to feel thankful about not being with the person or opting out of the situation because in seeing ourselves as being inextricably linked to why that person acted as they did, or why we were disappointed, or why the situation was what it was, we can’t see the wood for the trees. We’re too busy blaming and shaming ourselves. We’re too busy feeling that we’ve been robbed. We’re feeling rejected and at the same time wanting to reject information that would actually help us feel less rejected by adding some balance to the proceedings.
The weird thing is that sometimes we don’t know that we need to address something until it’s mirrored back to us in the other party’s behaviour. It’s not neccessarily the one-off stuff but the habitual stuff.
I would love it if we were all armed with the self-awareness, self-knowledge and relationship smarts as soon as we rock up into adulthood but it’s only through experience where we discover what we do and don’t know.
I can remember with one particular ex as he launched a volley of putdowns and deflections at me that I thought, “Wow, I really must hate myself to be with him.” It was this scary lightbulb (more like punchbulb punching me in the head) moment.
It’s not that my self-hatred was an invitation for his behaviour and that if I liked me more that he would spontenously combust into boyfriend of the century but when I finally was ready to put ego aside where I had an inclination to make everything about me, ‘little’ realisations like this had been happening over a few years. I knew they were trying to tell me something and in fact, I even heard what these experiences were saying a few times along the way but it was like, What was that you said? I don’t really like myself and this guy is behaving like a tool because that’s who he is? and then my ego would come rushing in and it would be, Ah yeah but what that really means is that I don’t like myself because I’m worthless and good for nothing and that’s why he’s behaving like a tool, and the crucial info would be drowned out and I’d be back to doing the people pleasing and unavailable dance.
In truth, when we like, love, care about, trust and respect us more, we would not be attracted to or continue to be around somebody who doesn’t reflect that outlook.
We won’t be with somebody who does less than what we can already do for ourselves.
We certainly won’t continue to make us the solution to their problems and we most definitely won’t keep trying to make them change in an effort to ease our discomfort about the situation. We’ll take charge of relieving our discomfort instead of giving away our power.
You know what all of my unavailable relationship experiences did? They forced me to grow up. Due to the pain I went through and how it all spiralled out of control and crippled my health, facing me and all of these experiences forced me to finally be a grownup with my parents and extended family instead of three-year old Nat feeling wounded, abandoned, and looking for love in the wrong places. In doing so, I allowed myself to feel, to think, to have needs that I could step up and assert within my relationships and to also just be.
Talking with a friend who has a habit of going out with highly insecure guys who either start getting all ‘Chopper’ on her (cutting her down with comments and manipulative behaviour) and/or who she plays armchair psychologist with, I asked her what’s the draw because that’s what’s being overlooked. It’s not a coincidence that they’re same relationship different package and the truth is, these guys are all over her at the start with their Fast Forwarding selves and she feels on top of the world and then the same ‘ole problems set in and she feels drained.
Being adored by somebody who initially thinks that they’ve struck gold and in essence being put on a pedestal eventually comes at the price of her contentment and the possibility of mutual relationship. A part of her is insecure in the sense that a guy who isn’t veering between awed and threatened isn’t attractive. She realises that she needs to address that part of her that for some reason doesn’t feel “good enough” unless it’s with this kind of guy even though she eventually ends up feeling “not good enough” anyway due to the way that these relationships pan out. The latest guy has been the worst experience of it and she’s seen it in a much shorter period of time and enough is finally enough even though of course it hurts.
I don’t necessarily say, “I’m really thankful for [the shit experiences]” but ever since I stopped feeling and acting as if each of the hurts and disappointments were terrible plot twists that robbed me of happy endings that ‘should’ have happened and that were making me into a doomed person, I can most definitely see that some of these experiences were blessings in disguise providing me with lessons I needed to learn and some of them were just flat out horrible/painful experiences. I can be angry forever more that certain things have happened but that will be dooming me more than any of the experiences ever could.
Long-standing anger and self-recrimination create major problems especially as we use these as the basis for determining our next moves.
If we keep telling ourselves that something that represents loss of self, pain, and an unhealthy dynamic was the “right” thing for us, life will throw more opportunities for that dynamic to come along, either with us going back to a person or taking up with new version of them in a different package. We can’t expect that we will see, appreciate, and ‘get’ somebody or something that represents a different, healthier outlook while on some level insisting that the people, dynamics and things that represent the loss and pain are where we need to be at.
It’s very easy to focus on what another person is doing but use that information to point you to where you can understand and support you better. Take the focus off them and bring it back to you.
Your thoughts?
PS Happy Thanksgiving to all of my readers who celebrate! As always, make sure that the only turkey you’re messing with is the one on your plate! Check out the blessings in disguise posts as well as ‘I’m not that woman’.
PPS The People Pleasing Diet is now open for registration.
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Wow. I reflected on this post and on the reference back to “The Chopper”. I was involved with an EUM for a bit over two years. He is six years younger than I am (he is 57, I am 63), so perhaps I inadvertently exposed a bit of insecurity about my age. I am much more accomplished educationally, professionally, and financially, but found him appealing in many other ways. Naturally, I was flattered that a handsome, virile, younger guy was interested in me and admittedly, we spent a lot of time together..he was with my family and me for two Thanksgivings, two Christmases and one Easter. He helped me with many tasks. However, there was very little sexual intimacy, no words of affection and very little PDAs. After I grew tired of his calling all of the shots on when we got together, and asked for more of a concerted effort in planning our time, he went “Chopper” on me. All of a sudden what went from him saying when he knew that guys were looking at or flirting with me, “you can get any guy you want”, to “men will say anything”…to, criticizing how I ate, how I walked down the street, that my jeans were not tight enough and that I didn’t wear “hot pants” (mind you, I am 63),that I needed “work” on my tummy, etc., I realized he was on the way out. That is what it is really all about. This is part of the exit strategy that is well-planned. So while he initially stated he would try to have a more committed relationship at my request, he really was planning how to get out ON HIS TERMS. I think he also was accessing in some capacity other women, either on a dating site through chats, or in person. I really don’t know for sure. In any event, we sort of mutually ended it, but he declared needing a break just within 10 days of the death of my only sibling. Go figure. After being close with my family, etc., he cut and ran when we needed him. I told him that I considered it to be a “break up” and I could not forgive him for this timing. We have been NC for almost six months. Yes I miss him, but after exploring the notion of EUMs, I am convinced it all is for the very best. I am learning to love myself again, after many put downs. It really is all about self-love and not attracting that walking wounded.
Junesbug, I agree heartily with every single word except these:
After being close with my family, etc., he cut and ran when we needed him.
Nah. You didn’t need him. That man would have given you about as much support as a breadstick.
You are a strong woman, and you did it for yourself instead, so you gained from coming through that tough experience.
You’re having a life as a proper, decent, well-rounded and happy human being. He’s off chasing skirt via the internet, trying to convince himself he’s still young.
Junesbug
Boy, this is sounding soooo familiar. Every time I have attempted to have a rship with a dude much less educated, accomplished, it’s been the same sick scenario, including bailing right at a traumatic event in my life, liitle PDA or “fake, show off” PDA. A good many men simply cannot handle being with a woman more accomplished than they. It starts with flattery, ends with constant criticism. In the criticism stage, they ARE lining up another, usually someone who will look up to them. It’s not you at all, it’s their own sense that they are failures in some way. Ironically, so many rship blogs now tell women that they have no choice but to date and dumb down; this kind of scenario is the end result.
“Me three” Junesbug and Noquay… anyone else here with experience of this one? LOL
Dont dumb down of course, but what does ‘dumb down’ mean? — two of my very accomplished female friends have married significantly less accomplished men and it works really well. These guys are very solid, they are accomplished and very invested in their own careers (just not as formally educated as my friends), and secure in themselves. Also supportive of their partners’ work and achievements. I have dated men usually at work, so very similar accomplishments, but so insecure, needing validation from women including women way younger and way older than them (so in the first case they should be validating those younger women, and in the second, they are too old to need maternal figures that are not their mothers). I think security and maturity is key – and it is independent of your credentials / finances etc. I think this is the whole message of BR – dont dumb down on these criteria of character and values. Someone with values if they feel insecure to you will let you go with kindness. Someone without values that is more accomplished than you but insecure for whatever reason will mind eff you up all the way.
Suki
What “dumb down” means is for one to downplay ones accomplishments, intelligence, ones values, in order to be accepted by someone who may not have as much of or value these qualities. I know there are womyn who married men less accomplished and get along fine. There are others that did so and were miserable, stuck with a partner who resented them and/or they could no longer relate to. This was my experience, more than once, with dating down. Horrible. I think it comes down to being who you are and choosing only those who can respect who you are and recognition of those situations where you are totally incompatible. I am the sort that hates TV, lives a self reliant, sustainable lifestyle. No one should tell me I should settle for someone who is addicted to TV, doesn’t care about long, in depth convos, doesn’t care about the environment. No matter how good looking the dude is, it ain’t gonna work and my trying to act like someone he’d prefer ain’t gonna work either. Yet this is what many blogs tell us to do; hide who you are at home, you can get your emotional/intellectual needs met at work/with gfs but be someone else in your own home. Rubbish! Yep, Suki, integrity, caring, emotional availability, responsibility should be de rigueur for all adults, regardless of socioeconomic level.
But what if a good portion of the blame falls on us? I don’t know how to get out of the past. I wrote on the previous post how I am trying to be friends/”friendly” with my ex because of our proximity and my general inability to get away…plus I have hope that in the long run we could be friends. Unfortunately, I also can’t squash this ridiculous hope that we can maybe work things out one day.
I am having real trouble accepting that he is over it and has moved on. He started dating someone a week after we ended things and they are still together a little over a month later. Every time I see him he looks so happy, and I keep torturing myself by wondering about the health and quality of their relationship, how she makes him happier, how he no longer thinks of me or looks at me that way. We still talk and have hung out (albeit briefly) and he is still friendly, but I don’t get how he just magically turned off this switch. Is he not still attracted to me? Doesn’t he still find me charming, bright, and interesting? I am generally okay and go about my day, able to manage the thoughts of him that crop up…but when I see him I turn to mush. I am dying to blurt out my feelings. I want to explain how I’ve been working on my own issues, how I have this clarity of what transpired and how I truly believe we could work things out. (PS–I felt this before I knew he started seeing her, so I know it’s not just prompted by him being with someone else.) I then remind myself he has shown no sign of wanting me or the relationship, and that he has chosen her.
So what the hell is wrong with me?! And am I going to have to spend the rest of my time here watching him fall for her? Despite my knowledge of my self worth, and all the wonderful things and people in my life, I can’t stop hoping.
Phoenix, have you been around Baggage Reclaim for long? There are great essays on all these problems:
Obsessing
Not being able to let go
Hoping it will go back to ‘the way it was’
Needing to ‘win’
Wanting/expecting/demanding/hoping for a return on your investment
If you use the site search box and look for posts on ‘breakup’ or ‘obsession’, this will help.
Phoenix, blame is self-defeating, it carries some kind of judgement, e.g. ‘I am not good enough’, ‘I am hopeless’, and this means you can’t accept your own value and still allow it to be defined by someone else, who doesn’t have your interests at heart.
There’s a subtle but vast difference between blaming yourself, and taking responsibility for your role. Blame is emotive and judgemental, while if you take responsibility, you can be more logical about it. You can say ‘I did x, y happened as a consequence, z was out of my control’ etc. So if I do x again, y will happen again, and I can’t change z. How do I stop doing x and stop being influenced by z, which is totally out of my control? If you look at causes and consequences you’re less likely to engage in relationship insanity (lots on this from Nat) which is doing the same things and expecting different results. If you just deal in blame, you accept defeat, deciding that the only way you will have value will be if you throw yourself back in the fire and this time, by some miracle, it doesn’t burn you (and let’s forget you’re a Phoenix for a minute!). I’m plagiarising Nat here a lot by the way, and Einstein!
Whether or not he finds you charming, bright and interesting, has absolutely no bearing on how charming, bright and interesting you really are. Think about it rationally. We don’t have relationships with ‘the best’ people, but those who are best FOR US (or so we think), it’s highly personal, as personal as you can get. Though I hate to use a consumer metaphor, if you imagine going into a design shop that you love and choosing one poster out of 30, perhaps not liking a few of them but liking or loving most, and getting down to a shortlist of 5, then you decide one fits the room better and choose that one, though another one is a bit nicer. Should the shop now throw the other 29 away, because they’re not good enough? No! Who the hell are YOU to determine their value? Other people love them! And you never said they were not good enough anyway, they just didn’t work for you. The problem is, of course, that we’re thinking-‘posters’ and have our heart set on a particular ‘room’, but you get the idea about value?
Emotions are important, we are human and have to feel them, and there is no magic switch for grief and loss, especially when it’s in your face, but you’re on your way. You do know your own value, but it seems like part of you thinks he still holds the key to your full realisation and happiness, and this is what needs to hear reason.
Thanks, guys. I have been a BR fan for years, and I try to go back and re-read those articles often! It’s funny how you can read it, nodding your head and agreeing, but putting those lessons into practice is hard stuff 🙂
I found out shortly after my post that he had slept around while we were on a break–and then proceeded to not only conceal it, but judged me self-righteously for casually dating others. At the time, I apologized profusely and we got back together (again, without me knowing this, despite it being common knowledge in our social circle apparently!) I guess he didn’t see it as a health concern to tell me about these other people.
I keep going through our time together and wondering if anything he said or did was genuine. Was it all a selfish manipulation? He has a new girlfriend that he got with a week after we broke up and I think he spent the Thanksgiving holidays with her, possibly with her family too. It makes me feel awful that he is this perfect, happy, committed guy with her and able to make things work, and I apparently don’t deserve the truth…
At any rate, I am now wondering what to do with the information. Some people say just take it in and use it to move forward. I agree with this, but I am worried that I need to address it somehow since we made this push to be “friends” and I now want him nowhere in my life. Also, I know I am not the silent type, and I’d rather find a good way to say it now then let it slip out when I am emotional, upset, or at an event with others (we are in the same program.) Thoughts?
Phoenix, my thoughts are that this news will one on hand increase your rage, and this is something you’ll have to manage when it comes biting at you out of nowhere – but also it could be cathartic. You haven’t had your ‘enough’ moment just yet. I sense this because you still want to reach out to him, even just to tell him you’re done with him. When you’re truly done with him, you’ll know he doesn’t deserve the effort, and your feelings are none of his business.
Also I’ll direct you to this post, as I don’t think my poster metaphor works! https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/why-himher-and-not-me-not-everything-is-about-us/
Yes, I’m hoping that it will catalyze my effort to move on. I thought it would help me to tell him I knew, I didn’t appreciate it, and from now on I wouldn’t be anything other than civil (simply because the situation requires it in a professional setting.) However he responded that we had talked about it and he didn’t know where this was coming from, and that he too was frustrated that we couldn’t seem to make it work. I can’t remember this conversation and it made me doubt and analyze again…until as my family pointed out, it’s all a moot point because it’s over. If we really were meant to be we probably wouldn’t have hung out with other people and we’d find a way to make things work. The hardest part is still seeing him with someone else, but I need to remind myself it doesn’t have anything to do with me. He knew I cared and I have apologized for my part in things. The worst part of all this is when you feel panicked because there’s nothing left to fixate, obsess, or wonder about. How do I let go of this weird and irrational hope of friendship or reconciliation?
Recognise this is about validation not any real love for him or yourself and learn to validate yourself.
Ok, no sugar coating here. Fuck being friends. Girl, I’m going to get Jersey on you and give it to you straight-up, no chaser. This is how we Jersey girls… ‘do.’
For the love of God (or whoever you pray to), please…let this very insecure man go. If I can even call him a man. Chances are.. (and this isn’t going to be pretty), he has been seeing her well before a week you’ve been broken up. This poor thing that he’s now dating, has no clue what an @ss he really is. And apparently, you don’t either, despite clear evidence that you need to NOT be friends with him, and move on. You need to go serious, balls out, no contact.
If you have something to ‘say’, say it now, say it to us, not him. We’re here to support you. Please (and you will feel soooo much better later on), if you do not entertain him in any way. Stop being in denial that this guy is so great, innocent, ‘not that bad’, whatever. Stop it. He is with someone else. Not making you happy, you are spinning. Obsessing. I promise, if you go NC (ladies… this is what Nats been drilling into us. for. years. and this exact situation is why.. ), he may eventually reach out, and at that point.. that is when (hopefully) you will be stronger.. and be like ‘umm… who the eff are you?’, please.. do what you can to cut off contact and learn how to make you happy and move on.
I’m sorry if I’m a bit abrasive, I just don’t like this little weasel. lol…
Phoenix
You absolutely, positively, have to go NC. If he doesn’t work at the same place you do, you should be able to go 100% NC. You know where he hangs out, must have some idea of his schedule, don’t be around at those places, those times. That he is dating a week later tells me he was lining her up ahead of time. You’re putting yourself through agony, don’t go there! You cannot be friends with this dude, nor even talk to him.
You crack me up ladies! Love how Demke got all “Jersey” girl 🙂
I think NC is important, but going to be hard to go 100% since we’re in a program with the same courses, events, social outings, friends, etc. (and live a mere block from each other!)
How do you un-tie your self esteem from them and the situation? I can’t help but feel replaced or question why he thought I wasn’t worth fighting for. One side of my brain keeps yelling that I’m an idiot for even spending another second on him, and another still has these residual feelings that flare up at inopportune moments. I have been seeing a therapist for a lot of my relationship struggles…just curious though what y’all have done that works to separate out your beliefs about yourself from them and their actions.
Lift your head high and say “I deserve better”, then go looking for it.
PhoenixRises, girl, do I hear you! In fact, your story is so so similar to mine. The obsession. The “he said that, and I answered this”. I work with my ex-EUM and it’s taken me x2 time to heal, or to put it in honest objective terms – to half heal – than those women here on BR who could go 100% NC. Please be kind to yourself. Please understand that very few of us can actually go fully NC and stay that way. Many are biting the bait, see that the ex-EUM has not changed and go back to NC. Healing is a process. And you need to start this process now. You are the only person who truly cares for you in this situation. This man doesn’t care about anyone except himself. And I promise you, he doesn’t care about that new gf either. Yes, he might marry her and have children with her but no one who acted like an ass with one woman becomes a perfect husband over night WITHOUT TAKING TIME to become a better and EMOTIONALLY AVAILABLE. And again, it takes time.
Demke is right on the money in her words. Damn, when I had a friend telling me something similar about half a year ago, I would not listen. I thought, “she doesn’t understand. she doesn’t know him like I do”. and I continued spinning out of control, loosing my self-esteem, becoming an emotional junkie feeding off drama and crumbs of this man as he continued living his life. Screw those manbabies, Phoenix. Rise above the noise. Yes, noise. I was at my new therapist’s office the other day and I was telling her about our recent text message exchange with an ex-EUM (after which I have felt disappointed, disgusted and resumed NC). And all the sessions I was “he said this and then I answered that. and in the past he did that BUT said this” and blahblahblah ad nauseum. She cut me off. My therapist said, “it’s irrelevant what he says. he had all the time and chances in the world. and even if he did not – and really wanted to have those chances with you – he would have taken them. he is not the man you imagine him. what you need to do is go all “silent movie” on him. be a classy lady. all satin gowns and shiny hair..and no sound. turn off the sound when he speaks. or when you think about the past. look at his ACTIONS. there is everything you need to know”.
Phoenix, turn off the noise. And you’ll see that this guy is nothing but noise and no actions. Or at least no actions that benefit you or your future together. There are so so many opportunities to be had with so many interesting men and people in general. Don’t let that loser steal your time and effort. He’s just noise.
Thanks Why–I love the image of a classy movie starlet! And thanks to all of you, your support means the world to me. 🙂
Even if he was single, it wouldn’t matter. He’s immature, irresponsible, selfish, and unable to express feelings or communicate consistently. If only I had my self-esteem and boundaries, I would never have attracted someone like him, got involved in the situation, or allowed it to languish as it did. This also makes me realize that I’m probably not missing out on much now. I do hope for the sake of him and his new relationship that he is working to improve himself, although a lot of the above requires time and experiences to get you past that point. Besides, as you so excellently state, there are plenty of men out there who are interesting, smart, gorgeous, AND available…why would I sit around waiting for potential that may never be met?!
I made up a new challenge for myself recently, and hope it may help others going through a similar situation. Anytime I catch myself thinking of him, I have to revert my thoughts back to me and focus on either complimenting myself or a goal I’d like to reach. It not only distracts you (until you get to the point where you just don’t care to think of them anymore!) it’s also a constructive way to use your time and thoughts.
Also, that you think he is a great guy who loves and adores her like you want him to love you?
No, he is still the guy who hurts his lovers and sleeps around – he WILL do it to her too. Do you wish that hurt on her?
I doubt it. Leave them to it and wait, feel sad for the person you were, not longing for how you weren’t loved.
You’re assuming that he’s this “happy, contended, committed” person with her, when actually you have NO idea what he’s like with her. Just because they spent T-day together means nothing. For all you know, he was texting other girls behind her back the whole day. Stop imagining some kind of fantasy life for the two of them. He’s probably with her and not you because he just met her and she hasn’t gotten to the point yet where she was demanding any responsibility, maturity, or emotional reciprocation from him. She was EASIER. But like most women she will eventually want commitment, honesty, emotional availability, etc, and at that point, he’ll probably bolt and come sniffing around you again…
Phoenix – my ex broke up with me and a month later pestered me non stop to meet him for a movie. I gave in and we fell into our old habits of hanging out all the time and fwb. I think I thought he was going to change his mind about us. Not even 3 months after we broke up, he tells me without even thinking about how his words would hurt me (he never really did anyway) that he is talking to someone new. I was devastated. I found out that she was recently separated which hurt me even more. But made sense to me as he is EU and so is she. I went NC the day after he told me because I just couldn’t do it anymore. I made so many excuses for him, created potential for him that he would never meet, and just was tired of being hurt all the time. I know how you feel because you are doing exactly what I did and still do sometimes. The thing I can tell you though that took me a long time to realize is that you are focusing on him and her so you don’t have to focus on you and your issues. These men are avoidant of their issues and just dive right into the next person to help avoid their issues until they get bored and then move onto the next. He is still with her – a year later. Which I am surprised. He ended up moving in with her 7 months after they started dating and he contacted me shortly after that and he told me that it was a good opportunity for him to get out of his mom’s. He hasn’t changed. When he contacted me, he begged to see me. We ended up sleeping together and we have met up a few more times since then I am not proud to admit. So now he’s a cheater. He’s so messed up…and I know that I would not be happy if we were still together and I know I would have eventually broken up with him. I still struggle. He was a huge part of my life for a long time but I have to keep reminding myself that feelings aren’t facts. I have a friend who is married to someone who is similar to my ex, and every time she talks to me about their marriage and how frustrates/unhappy she is I am reminded how that would be me/us. He is his gf’s rebound from her marriage/divorce. She is only 3 months divorced I believe. I don’t know much about her. As someone said above he’s a divorce clown right? haha anyway – I am struggling lately and feel like I will never meet anyone.
Hi Lynn –
Your last line really hit me.
I can’t promise you that you will ever meet ‘the one’. Nobody can promise you that; one woman’s experience is not the same as another’s, and nobody really knows the future, no matter how long and dangly their earrings are …
But what I CAN promise you, is that you CAN have a happy future with or without a partner, once you give up the ‘relationship crack’.
This site has some excellent posts on being addicted to relationship crack: being hooked on people, on drama, on cheating, and on hookups that are really fun and then go horribly wrong. These blog posts are a really good wake-up call – you might find them helpful. (I can’t get the links to them directly, because of browser probs, but if you use the search box on the site and enter ‘relationship crack’, you will find them easily).
When he contacted me, he begged to see me. We ended up sleeping together and we have met up a few more times since then I am not proud to admit. So now he’s a cheater.
This also jumped out of your post and spoke to me. Girl, it takes two to create a ‘cheater’. You have free will and free choice, and you can actually say no to meeting this man ever again.
Detox! detox! detox! No Contact! And then you might just start seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, and stop worrying about meeting Someone, and start meeting You instead.
Ethelreda – Thanks for your response. I am just down in the dumps lately. When he contacted me like 5 months ago, I was doing really well (I guess that is when they strike again huh) and had never seen him like that. Begging to see me. It was ridiculous. I told him no. Do the right thing. That I can’t. He showed up at my house anyway. And i just caved. It was almost like a scene from a movie. I just can’t say no to him. We finally had a conversation recently that what we were doing needed to end though I haven’t seen him in awhile. He said he needed to do the right thing as I advised him to do at the beginning and I told him it needed to stop. Since the conversation I just feel sad again. I knew what I was doing was wrong but I did it anyway…and I guess I am just addicted.
Natalie. I am your faithful reader and I don’t know what is wrong with me but yet again I allowed to AC#2 to come back into my life, humiliated myself even more! Gosh, WHEN I am going to rid of him for good?! I keep thinking/saying to myself like you did: “Wow, I must hate myself that much that I allow this person to be with me” … Why I am so weak? What does he done to make me wanting for more cr@p?!
Little Star,
Nobody can tell you when the right time is, it is totally up to you!! Do you want to carry on being treated like crap then by all means stay with him…YOU and only YOU can make the decision to end things.
Thank you Sandy! I gave up….no more men!
Awesome!!! Awesome!!!! Right on point!! exactly what I needed to read. an need. thanks much!!! an thank God fotr shareing your wiisdom with people like myself
Wow thank you for this post Nat. This is so true. I was in an emotionally abusive relationship for 3 years. he was so great at first and being whipped in the beginning was such an illusion that i failed to see his true colour. after breaking up with me I finally saw his true colours through that experience. i think what you say about learning to love and value yourself is so true. as you say it makes it seem like you are lacking in the self love department. it definitely makes me angry at myself now looking back. i am just trying to learn to love myself more, become more self-aware and truly appreciating the things that i enjoy because accepting less than you give in a relationship is nonsense. it’s scary thinking of trusting someone else again because i fear that rejection/abandonment again.. but your post is teaching me to just work on myself and if the person chooses to leave after i have set boundaries and standards then so by it. i will be better off anyways!! thanks so much again Nat. your posts are so helpful. with love from South Africa x
I’ve posted on here in recent times about 3 guys, one a ‘whachamacallit’, someone I felt in love with for more than a year, who in my company acted like there was a special connection and promise between us, but his actions over time showed he wasn’t reciprocating (the EUM). I divested and boycotted him and opened myself up to a date with someone else, then decided it was too forced and withdrew from it. Then there was the out-and-out AC.
So between ending the whachamacallit and starting on the almost-date, I had a moment when I was entirely free of any romantic connection. My attention has now turned to someone closer to home, someone I work with. In some ways it’s an improvement because it’s a healthy attraction. He has shown interest in me in the year I’ve known him, but I ignored it because I was chasing after the EUM. I wasn’t sure if he really liked me, or if he just wanted me to like him (my friend says that doesn’t make sense). He doesn’t have that instant charm and appeal, but I had to spend a lot of time with him recently and a side of him unfolded that I like, kind, funny and thoughtful beneath the grumpy exterior. And he’s available.
So even being attracted to him and not a glittery insincere EUM is progress, but at the same time, I fear the part of me a friend pointed out way back, that I ‘love being in love’. I wouldn’t use the word ‘love’ yet for this attraction – I’m not THAT carried away, but I still fear that I’m compromising myself when I analyse every corridor chat we have, feel the advance sadness of disappointment, expecting to find I left it too late and he just met someone, or that as I’ve moved closer to him, he’s realised he’s not interested after all. I feel like since I ‘noticed’ him, I’m overthinking our conversations and not as natural as I used to be. I even wonder if I’ve sabotaged other prospects in the past as a result of this problem.
So I’m not as enlightened as I’d hoped, I both grew up too young, and am a late developer because family problems robbed me of my teenage years. I even question if I’m genuinely interested or if I just HAVE to be interested in someone, and I’m fighting over-investment. I have to move the focus back to me. But at the same time, I AM emotionally available and aware of my boundaries, as dealing with those 3 in my first paragraph has shown. so I don’t think I should close myself off just because I have some unhealthy habits, or I will never manage a relationship.
So that’s one cause for anxiety, the other is what I guess is more normal – what if he’s not interested, what if it slips away because neither of us take action? People have posted on here that if someone is interested, you have no doubts about it? I’d be pleased to hear any insights.
Oh happy b. You know what makes me worry?
1) He’s a work colleague = even if it takes off, if it then crashes and burns, there are potential long-term consequences for your career/work.
2) It sounds like you are doing all the work, and are already beginning to over-invest. You say you are ’emotionally available’, but you might come across as ’emotionally desperate’ instead.
3) You have – if I’m reading it right – relatively recently lurched through a series of three mistakes. I suppose it’s good that you have learned from each of them, but I guess I’m like your friend and I’m going to say: ‘Do you have to have someone to be in love with?’
And if so, why? Is it the endorphin rush? Is it a hobby? Is it a sort of interior game you play, the way some people play mental chess? Is it a place you can retreat to when things get rough in the outside world?
This is what I would be asking, because I have been here – I was/am a classic fantasy-relationship person, because I can control it and it saves me all that pain of rejection. I have to fight this all the time, and try to wean myself off it like a drug.
Ethelreda, I don’t really think of those experiences as mistakes. I ultimately handled them well and learned from them, and I think we have to put ourselves on the line sometimes. My biggest mistake was going after the EUM for such a long time, but even then, I didn’t humiliate myself. If I am to learn from that though, the lesson is overinvestment. The problem is, I knew all the time I was too invested, but it didn’t stop me.
Nothing wrong with him being a colleague, this is very common in my profession, and I imagine we’d both manage it well, plus he is available and has shown interest. But I feel like I’m now trying a bit too hard. I’m not properly going after him or pursuing him, yet I have to keep it in check and watch my thoughts, not get too hooked on that drug. It brings back past mistakes.
It seems like some kind of retreat from the world or way to fill time, but I was so happy and secure when I wasn’t interested in anyone!
Happyb
In my profession, dating colleagues is common, basically because colleagues are the only folk in ones community you share values with. Still, believe me, when it goes south, it is sheer hell. You not only loose him, yet still have to face him; you also may loose friendships with colkeagues, no longer be able to go to work-related events, basically winding up a sort of heartbroken hermit. My at work AC, out of the blue, pursued ME, not the other way round, on paper he looked perfectly available; two years post divorce, had bought a new place to live, was asking for help building his home, promising right and left to help with mine. All the while being involved with someone, a former colleague of ours, from out of town. He kept up the charade for two years and would’ve done so for longer had circumstances been different. My career has been severely derailed, I cannot yet get enough for my home to leave, and the workplace is now somewhere I dread to be. Think long and hard about this.
Noquay, I’m sorry to hear what you went through, and I take your words very seriously. I think we’re in the same profession, and for me it’s a big commitment with no off switch. I love where I work and the people, but it’s small and this makes it fragile, a quarrel can build a toxic environment all round.
But I am still hopeful that this could work – as he seems to share my core values and well as the secondary ones, I am willing to take some risk – I guess the key is to take it VEERRY slowly and have my red flag radar on high alert if I’m right about his interest.
Were you BR-literate when you got with the work AC?
No, found BR towards the end, maybe a month before he was caught with ex colleague. Had I discovered BR sooner, it would saved me years of hurt. Had I been in a NORMAL community, and had options for dating that were healthy, none of this woulda happened. I was terribly alone, emotionally and intellectually starved, and nothing was working. Very vulnerable. When I met the AC, he was still married (albeit cheating it turns out) and was very cold, arrogant. I became involved with a good looking yet uneducated local who turned out to be a serious chopper. I avoided AC for awhile after his divorce as his rage was very palpable. It was he that approached me. I had never experienced hot/cold behavior as my prior rships were with emotionally high functioning men that were up front, as am I. I understand your situation:the only folk I share any values with are colleagues; the AC was probably the only one I could really talk to about enviro issues, which are super important to me. That’s what made it sooo awful, I lost the person
I loved AND the only kindred soul here and nope, despite really getting out there, that’s never gotten better. Our work environment has now become very toxic, and the community, impoverished, is not somewhere I can go for support. Everyone needs someone they can relate to. Despite doing everything I can, working myself to a state of exhaustion, to try and improve things and/or get out and be in a place I can date again, I feel very trapped in a pressure cooker. I just don’t wanna see you go down the same path, it ain’t fun. Since then, nope, I’ve found no one even remotely compatible except one fellow athlete that , surprise, was hiding a girlfriend (whazzup with this) but BR has helped me to recognize many problem children since and avoid/not attach to them in any way. Again, I just don’t want you to go down my path.
Noquay, I hear you, and I understand the need for someone like-minded. I’m in a city so I’m sure there’s no shortage of men with my values, but it’s not that simple. Many of those who share my activism are not so hot in their relationship habits (that secondary/primary values thing again), OR they can be the greatest, but then are most likely taken – i’m in my late 30s.
I have been in a very similar place to you. Not so long ago, I lost everything. I wasn’t in a toxic and humiliating relationship with a colleague, but even worse, a ‘friend’ I was housesharing with over several years, and I was desperate to leave town, I couldn’t bear it. I was isolated and my place of work was damaging to me for other reasons, I couldn’t see a way out. But I just kept going, as you are, even though I seemed to keep going from frying pans to fires. I felt like I was sewing myself back together and was closed to dating. Things turned around massively, I can’t believe my good luck but also have finally learned to give myself credit for persisting.
Those 3 experiences that didn’t go right are my entry into the dating world after a 3-year hiatus, they’ve strengthened my resolve and I see no reason now to run away from something that has no red flags in terms of my boundaries. I guess working together is an amber flag. I will keep checking in with the wonderful people here as it does – or doesn’t – unfold.
Noquay, I am in a similar situation. I felt like I lost not only a lover (can’t think of a proper word) but also a kindred soul as you say. And I could not talk to anyone in our circle because it may be not super small but it is still a circle and I was the other woman. This last thing complicated many other aspects of my relationship but what I wanted to say is that I had a certain point in our “breaking up” process that lasted for months (essentially: I was addicted to his crumbs and he was a user) when I had an epiphany when I realized that we had those stimulating intellectual talks only at the begging. That period lasted maybe a month. And then all the books, all the concerts, music, intellectual stimulation and discovering each other as intellectual partners has subsided to an almost zero and we were only about sex, my trying to talk to him and try to make sense of what was going to happen and what he thought of our future and him either falling asleep or telling me “not to complicate things”. All the wonderful qualities and intellect he had was not benefiting me or our relationship anymore. So what was the use of it?.. This was a major breakthrough in my getting detached from that man.
Do you really think highly-educated people share the same values?
Education can be a wonderful, powerful asset, and I’m all for education, BUT it is NOT an indication of ones integrity, honesty, respect….
I think you confuse education with class with “home training” with common courtesy, and decency.
And, I think it makes you sound like an elitist, but you don’t strike me as an elitist. You strike me as someone who found an escape from a painful childhood through education, and as someone who thought being in an educated world would be like paradise, but now refuses to acknowledge the truth:”a$$holes come from all socioeconomic groups.” And, “no,” people “shouldn’t know better”; they either do or they don’t. They COULD know better.
Annie, are you talking to me about elitism?
Sorry if I’ve got confused – but if you are saying that I assume he has my values because he’s educated, this isn’t true. I would call that a secondary value. Primary values are things like honesty, stability, courage, respect, things that plenty of highly educated people lack. I’ve got to know him over a year or so, this is why I think he shares my ‘proper’ values.
Annie, the neighbour thing was never a relationship. It was a hook-up that went wrong. And I ended it on the grounds that I wanted a proper relationship, not to be a sneak’s booty call. I’m totally done with meaningless sex. It was a mistake, but I’ve come out trusting myself and with no need for self-punishment, have done enough of that in the past.
If I can name several happy long-term couples who work together, I’m not trying to be an exception to the rule. I don’t see that working together would be a dealbreaker, all other things considered. I do know what I want. But I DO see that it needs extreme caution and a proper discovery phase, so I appreciate your comments.
I don’t think you were talking to me! But I agree anyway 🙂
No, HappyB, I was talking to Noquay.
What you said:
“Primary values are things like honesty, stability, courage, respect, things that plenty of highly educated people lack.”
It’s my point to Noquay.
Ah well, I’m sure Noquay isn’t elitist, and I’m sure she knows there are well-educated assholes! I gather her real-life experience is that it’s hard for her to find like-minded people in a ?rural setting, as hard as she’s tried.
I sympathise, on one hand I recognise I should run from someone who shares my secondary but not primary values (the EUM was this – well educated, politically similar but inconsistent and untruthful) – on the other, I also think it’s hard to accept someone who shares primary but not secondary values.
The date i called off was mainly because he was being overfamiliar too quickly, but I also thought it couldn’t work out because he lacked education. He was self-made and creative, so I would not think myself superior. I admire and respect him, but just felt that our world views are incompatible and this matters to me.
Annie
Alas, many folks in all socioeconomic levels lack those characteristics. Yep, I know highly educated folk that are a$$holes big time, also uneducated folk. There are also educated folk that are awesome human beings and uneducated folk that are too. That being said, except at a very basic level, the two often do not mix well. It’s not that one is better or worse, it’s that we’re different. Perhaps like Happyb, I saw getting an education as a way out of the alcohol/drug/anti intellectual thought/ dropout/ redneck environment I was raised in. Aint no one ever gonna drag me back there. I have tried to date uneducated men-utter disaster. They hated my environmentalism, my life, my very thoughts. I have had very successful women friends marry laborers because they wanted to do the baby thing. Those men wound up ignored, horribly hurt, more like glorified sperm donors and babysitters than husbands. Would never do that to anyone, ever. In the old times, folks used to lift themselves up, go beyond their upbringing. I used to debate/discuss Socialism for hours with an 8th grade dropout. He taught himself English, had unionized the mines. He honored me by leaving me his library of Socialist writings. Nowadays, it TV, pop culture, bar culture. Here, its anti enviro rants, guns, and I hate the government. Unfortunately the only folk now bent on self improvement are the immigrant population. I work with them a lot, they admire that I raised myself up, tell their daughters to follow my path whereas the many generation Anglo population here often resents who I am, that I question mining, that I have restored my (destroyed by mining) land and defend it against damage. Many locals ask me, a smallish, overextended academic to help them with repairs/woodcutting rather than those who actually are laborers by trade because I have a strong work ethic, am reliable and sober. My woodworking teacher, a plumber by trade, works with me instead of his ex-apprentice because I learn very quickly and work hard. Unfortunately, for a lot of society, these values have fallen by the wayside as has a love of reading/literature, caring for the land, caring for community, and have been replaced by some sort of mass/social media/television/consumerism crack. Yep, I am always gonna prefer a good book, hiking in the woods, intelligent discussion of world/local/enviro issues over the Sunday football game, reality TV, hanging out in a bar. It doesn’t make me any more evil than the folks watching TV, nor are they any more evil than I, just different. We all have the right to our thoughts, our lives so long as living our lives does not impinge upon the rights of others. We each of us, need to seek out those that compliment, not clash with, who we are, regardless of values. Integrity, honesty, empathy, sobriety, obligation to community, a work ethic should be expected of all regardless of upbringing/origins. Yep, Annie, I am a thinking, questioning, person. That may make me an elitist b@#$% but that’s who I am and I think that’s A OK.
Noquay, I’d come and hang out with you! That’s what education is to me, not about knowing what wine to order with each course, but questioning things. I can’t square with people who glorify and worship the wealthy, the aristocrats, the celebrities – plenty of these people are perfectly nice and just have the prevailing beliefs, but not viable for life-sharing. I hear you, thinking is definitely discouraged by the media. There are great thinkers without formal education, as I’ve found in places where people don’t have access, but as a general rule, it helps.
One suggestion is to focus on bonding with women for now, if you’re not doing so? When I cast aside my search for a man and focused on my own healing, I worked on strengthening female friendships and joined knitting groups etc., whereas before I would have only put myself in new social situations where I might meet men. This was a revelation to me as I’d always been more comfortable around men and am not a ‘girly girl’. The way you describe your community, I imagine there must be some great, resilient women there to spend time with as you heal and get your life where you want it to be, then you’ll be ready to find a partner.
You can hang here anytime youd like. Hope you dont mind cats, overenthusiastic large dogs, a plethora of birds, and high altitude. As an educator, I feel my job is not to tell others what to think, but HOW to think. Tragically, the inability to question the mining/resource extraction lifestyle here has destroyed so many lives here through despair, learned helplessness, alcohol/drug abuse, violence. All for the worship of a history that adulated a few in power and didnt give a rats about anyone else. Your mind can free you to thrive or trap you in a prison of your own making. I have been fortunate to meet, socialize with many famous, powerful folk; Howard Zinn, a former President, Theo Colborn, Kurt Vonnegut, John Truedell, misc actors and actresses, innumerable fellow enviro agitators. We got along fine; I never thought of them as anything more or less than I. We all were folk who can think outside of the mass media dominated societal box. Ironically, my very weird brain has given me the ability to pick a good wine but also to fix my furnace (how I spent my Thanksgiving break), fell trees, and track big cats. While my colleagues are telling our students the proper way to handle data, I am having them study up on “Peak Oil” and envision a future sans fossil fuels. Happy, your asking about socialization here really got the mental gears turning. There are very few of us older, serious thinking, resilient chicks left. Fully half to 2/3 of my colleagues do not live here, are at least 40 miles away. Most women here are 30 somethings, married, small children. I am a full generation older and non-family. My good friend and ex colleague lives 150 miles away, the colleague I am closest to is married to a demanding husband and 60 miles away, we’re very, very scattered. Those driving distances dont sound like much until you factor in winter mountain driving, closed passes, closed roads. The older single population is mostly male, but not healthy, datable males. Some of us chix do get together, but its not common and stuff like the writers group, the knitters meet at times convenient for retirees, not working folk. My best friend (male) drives 100 miles to come here and train. In summer, I attend pot lucks at the next town over, 20+ miles away, they’re mostly summer folk or semi seasonal. Thought about moving there at one point because it’s not poor and trashy looking but there are no longer any businesses open there for half the year and the place becomes a ghost town. The 3 summer months we get lots of fit, more Liberal and educated healthy folk here to train and that’s when I really put myself out there. The cold times are families here to ski, hunters, or nothing. We just lost our medical care center and with it, 105 jobs, 8 businesses have folded since I moved here. I sometimes wonder if this place will be a ghost town pretty soon, a coupla trailer parks for the very desperate and a few convenience stores. I do my best, hang out at the coffeehouse, start convos with veritable strangers. Unless one is a parent or into the bar scene, socialization is difficult for 9 months of the year. Again Happy, I am glad I spelled this out; I often get to hating on myself for being undesirable, someone attached dudes just wanna use for attention, some sort of lonely hermit but yeah, the situation IS weird here. No thinking person should come here unless they are retired, financially independent, and married/partnered. Really am not living in a community but rather some sort of post boom-bust socioeconomic case study. Cool!
Noquay,
Thank you for responding to my question.
So,…you are a codependent? a Florence?
Have you received any counseling?
Noquay, it’s a pretty unusual situation. I know you’re half joking, but it makes a very important case study! I guess resilience and creativity haven’t had the chance to develop in great numbers because there is so much access to distractions of tv and substances. Funny how you talk about learned helplessness, I was pondering on that today, how you have ‘can-do’ and ‘can’t-do’ people.
Don’t take any of it personally, I really know that feeling of being trapped and waiting for better times as it drags on, I think it has to be used as ‘quiet time’ to recoup oneself. Things will change.
Nope Annie, I am neither codependent nor a Florence. I grew up in an environment where I did wind up “fixing” the entire blasted household, keeping the peace and spent my teenage years reading anything I could find on traumatized kids, dysfunctional families to make damned sure that never, ever, happened to me again. I refuse to “fix” anyone; that’s why I will not date anyone who won’t/can’t support himself, chooses the down and out life rather than leave, chooses drugs/alcohol over self reflection. Not elitism so much as avoiding huge problems. Just dumped a dude, total NC who refused to face his life’s problems. I am in a helping profession yet keep a strong boundary between clients as it were and folk I socialize with. I do a lot of charity volunteer work yet my main focus is on helping downtrodden folk empower themselves. I am basically a serious, very self reliant, outdoors woman that has been blessed with a sharp, questioning mind who, for now, finds that she has invested in a community that really doesn’t work for her and is trying to find the most equitable, ethical way out.
HappyB,
Hmmm, the neighborhood-dude is your neighbor; that ‘relationship’ went South, so now you have to dodge him when you see him in the neighborhood. But, you don’t have a problem dating a co-worker?
Instead of rushing off into the next relationship, (I think Unready is correct), why not take a moment to ponder the lessons of the relationship with the AC-neighbor.
I agree that we learn through our relationships, but only if you are paying attention to what is being taught.
Yes, emotions are important, but so is “using your head.” I take calculated risks, not risks, and dating a colleague is a risk. Do you think you will be the exception to the rule?
Why not think about what you want in a relationship? Knowing what you want, will help you create better boundaries that will help you make better decisions in the future.
This is a good one.
It has really made me think about myself.
Lelisa, what you say above about “accepting less than what you give in a relationship is nonsense” – I think I have also realised that I have started to match what certain people give to me and actually it feels good. Ie; if someone is giving less, then I give less also to readdress the balance. It does not automatically mean I bounce them out my life however. I think if someone is giving NOTHING – obvious conclusion is to give NOTHING back ie NC.
I read yesterday about the tendency to not be able to accept the limitations in others. I definitely am like this. I think if someone is not up to where I am that I have the right to be frustrated and angry and annoyed and maybe say “bye bye” (usually with lots of unnecessary drama) But actually where I am at in the past has been a people pleaser and afraid to say “No-er” This was not a good place for me to be at.
We talk alot about boundary busting in terms of ACs and EU’s but I think the defining moment in me realising that I was EU, was my very own boundary busting! Sometimes me giving less is the right thing to do for myself and the other person AND the relationship. In learning as an over giver to give less, I have been able to see where I stand in relationships with EVERYONE: platonic and romantic WITHOUT having to spend hours and hours trying to work it out. I could measure by how I felt.
This all came by taking the focus back to me. Sometimes we are attracted to similar to what we had in the past and sometimes the only difference in a situation is how WE HAVE CHANGED and that makes ALL the difference in what you will accept, how you will behave and what in turn you will receive.
Bx
Good post, once again. Very true for me. I must really have huge issues with my self-esteem although I would say I am “superficially” confident (by which I mean confident in my abilities, opinionated, not shy etc)
But I notice I have a terrible obsession with looks. Althoug I have always had and still have a lot of deep and loyal friendships, a loving family and am by perception of others “goodlooking” and “attractive” (hate to even write this aobut myself…feels conceited), I can never be satisfied with the way I look. And I think it is just a placeholder for general discontent. The problem isn’t my looks, but self acceptance in general, I guess..?
Anyway, regarding my EUM situation: what bugs me, along with having been disappointed, treated not the way I want to be and feeling “played”, is that I was so mad for this guy because he represented “the whole package” for me. Also in the looks department. I am so picky and rarely find a guy sexually attractive, so I felt as I had struck gold with him. And not only the fact that I can’t be with him (and touch him and kiss him) but also the fact that he will never be by my side shatters me. And I know a part of the sadness is – unfortunately – that I finally wanted to show the world what a great guy I have and that it was worth being single for so long. Kind of like: “look, friends, this is what I have been waiting for.” Even worse: the thought of making others envious because I have this charming, smart and gorgeous boyfriend…really gave me a good feeling.
I am fully aware that this is a very sad outlook and reasoning and that I sound like a horrible and shallow person. But I want to admit this in front of myself. It was like he would have helped me to feel better about myself and to represent the ideal I had been waiting for so long.
Anyone on here knows what I am talking about and can relate?
If anyone has any “input” on how to free myself from this kind of twisted thinking and those superficial wishes…please share 😉
Arainne, I don’t think you are being “twisted” or “superficial” I think this is all perfectly natural. Wanting someone you can be proud of. I think the thing you should be more concerned with however,perhaps is why you are looking for this with someone who
” will never be by my side” Is this perhaps because underneath it all you don’t feel pretty and therefore worthy enough to actually have it?
As the post says, put the focus back on you. If you feel you have self esteem issues, start doing stuff about it. (Nat has a course for instance)
Good luck
Arianne, well done for being honest, I don’t think you’re horrible and shallow at all. I imagine many people are obsessed with looks and don’t see it as a problem, so it’s great that you want to look deeper. What about that whole concept of ‘trophy girlfriends’, for one example?
But I guess it’s also about overcoming unmanageable insecurities, do you wrap up others’ bad treatment of you in the way you look? It seems you do because you’re trying to prove to the world how attractive you are, as though it will get you more respect.
I used to do this, feeling like even family was neglecting me because I was ugly and unappealing, and then it IS a serious problem. I’ve moved beyond it but still feel unattractive and self-conscious around certain people, and lovely and free around others. If you relate to this, cut or minimise time with people who make you feel unattractive. It’s not about being around fake people who tell you you’re beautiful all the time (they may well be the ones to let you down), but more that your insecurity about looks is representing a deeper problem with the way they make you feel, and which needs to be examined even if it’s painful.
A friend once told me objectively I was average-looking, as in our whole friendship group is average-looking, none of us are going to be on the cover of a magazine, except one of her friends she considers exceptional. I was hurt and offended at the time, but now I get it. All those people I love and consider beautiful and who are in healthy relationships are actually average-looking, so it’s good enough for me!
Arianne
It perfectly natural, actually deeply rooted in biology, to want to be with someone you find attractive. A good many of us chix cannot respond physically to someone we find unattractive, whether it’s looks, intelligence, mannerisms, having his act together. This is biology’s way of avoiding combining DNA with someone who, in the old hunter-gatherer days, may not have been a good choice from a genetic standpoint or be able to be a good provider. Sounds crazy in this day and age but genetically, we are all still working at hunter-gatherer level and industrialisation is just a weird blip in evolutionary time. Nowadays, hopefully it prevents us from taking up with another just for the sake of not being alone, wasting precious time, and hurting an innocent party. I think the danger lies in sticking or obsessing over someone who treats you like crap solely because he is attractive physically. Also, wanting to show off someone as validation for oneself may well mean that you don’t feel good about who you are. Also being stuck on someone who may never be there for you. I understand, it’s hard to move on, want to be alone, especially when you are tired of being alone yet there are zero suitable rship candidates in sight. Some people never, ever, will be there for you and it may or may not have squat to do with who you are, what you look like, just like there are folk that you cannot be there for regardless of what they do.
In my advanced state of singleness, I find a man’s behavior increasingly influences my perception of his attractiveness. Which is why I give it a minute if his looks don’t immediately float the boat (within reason). If he can hold an intelligent conversation, he’ll start looking better, usually. Trite but true: handsome is as handsome does IMO.
NoMo, I’m with you on this. Once I was house sharing with a guy who started off unbelievably hot, I didn’t think I’d be able to resist him. But then as his personally showed him to be not so pretty, his looks followed and I ended up quite disgusted by him. I also think (also from advanced singleness?!) that both looks and size can make men complacent and limit what they have to offer, it makes sense that without those immediate ‘assets’, one has to work harder. I’m willing to turn that on me. If I were prettier, I might not have needed to work on myself quite so much. Not a hard and fast rule of course. The sweetest and smartest man I ever went out with now trades on his looks.
But for me, the brain holds the greatest appeal.
By the way, I never heard ‘handsome is as handsome does’, love it!
Nomo
Very true. I have met male models who made Noquays lil hard heart go pitter-pat until they opened their mouths. Himbos all.
Hello Arianne. You are either using or wishing to use exterior people to prop up your ego. This is deeper than being about your looks or need for perfection in your looks – that is just the surface symptom. This is about your real view of yourself as being lacking – in others eyes and your own – and you feeling unable to resolve this internal issue yourself – without being rescued externally by someone else.
You MUST deal with fixing your interior feelings about yourself and your abilities and your true worth. Hoping for a man on a white charger, really is not a viable, real or reliable option. Unless you want to live in a fantasy land and perpetually have fantasy relationships?
Arianne,
Great job being honest! It’s a great first step, and it’s refreshing to ‘hear’ somebody really attempt honesty.
I’ve had a protege for a few years now. He started out as my handyman but I saw his great potential and went to work trying to teach him how to make higher goals for himself and reach them. For two years he was eager to learn. I’m 61 and he’s 41 and I considered him like the son I never had. Yesterday he came by with some trumped uo emergency and wanted to borrow $100–“just for a few hours” he said. Needless to say he disappeared with my money. I call it my hundred dollar lesson. I am cutting him out of my life as of today. Liars, users and bums can go screw themselves.
Oh KAREN! ‘Man as project.’ The worst bit is when the project is successful, as yours was, because he’s learned quite a lot, by the sound of it.
What will you do if he turns up next week with your $100?
Boo and happy b: thanks for your replies. And for understanding!
@Boo: With that EUM now, I was jumping at the chance because I had never felt so attracted by a guy and we hooked up and he said he didn’t want a relationship from the start…but actually started to behave if it would lead to some kind of romantic relationship. Classic story I guess.
Anyway, so with him, I know he won’t be by my side and I can’t imagine “finding” someone equally as attractive that happens to be single. And yes, maybe I want an extraordinary handsome man because it validates my looks as well. You’re right, trophy guy in a way…
@happy b: I – rationally – know that my looks in no way play a role when a man treats me badly/ not how I wanted to be treated.
But it’s like I use this unhappy EUM story now to bring me down by telling myself “If you were hotter, he would have tried it with you”. And I KNOW this is wrong and I am doing the typical thing of looking to confirm my negative beliefs about myself…in a way it almost feels good to do this. I am being a sulking child to myself: see, you are not beautiful enough, this is why he rejected you!
“It seems you do because you’re trying to prove to the world how attractive you are, as though it will get you more respect.”
I didn’t mean to prove this here, I just wanted to give the background info that I never had any weight issues, never had bad comments about my looks or other things that could explain an insecurity or obsession about it. I have only ever got rather positive feedback about the way I look, yet it is not enough.
I really feel like I need an attractive guy that accepts me and wants to be with me, to feel better about my looks.
That said, I am used to being single and have spent years and years of my life without a boyfriend and without constantly needing approval from men.
But I feel like I crave it now, especially with the EUM situation.
And yes, happy b, most people are literally “average” looking. I would also consider a lot of my friends and couples I know average looking and some of them are in happy healthy relationships (other are in relationships, but maybe not so happy) and I know that looks don’t or shouldn’t matter that much in a loyal and honest relationship. But to me it is kind of a big deal.
I feel like I could only be with a guy if I found him attractive. And that, I can tell within the first seconds and I have very high standards unfortunately. It so rarely happens that I see a guy I find genuinely “hot”.
I have a lot of male friends who are smart and witty and I like hanging out, but I could never imagine sleeping with them or falling for them.
I don’t know what it is with me, that this is such a big factor, and that I can’t seem to get over this.
So I am naturally only interested in guys who are in a way outstanding – which often leads to them being
EUM or narcissistic.
Mind you, ladies, I am not 25 anymore…I am 34, which makes it all the more pathetic that I have this superficial obsession.
Hi Arianne,
My comment about you proving to the world you’re attractive wasn’t directed at your comments to us on here – but to make a point that you want a hot boyfriend to show the world that you’re attractive (to him and therefore in general), if I have this right?
Of course looks matter. I know that since I invested in overcoming an issue with my appearance (lanky hair), I’ve got more attention, and I’m sure this is based on my real looks and not only increased confidence. But similar to you, no one ever said anything bad about my appearance and plenty of compliments. It goes without saying that we are only attracted to attractive people, and we try to make ourselves look the best we can if we want to find new partners.
But our idea of attractive changes. Have you ever found a guy very attractive and then thought ‘not if he were the last man on earth’ after seeing what he’s really like? And in the reverse, have uninteresting men suddenly become appealing when you see their hidden depths? If you don’t go beyond the superficial in this way, it is perhaps a concern.
I think we all want a partner to make us feel beautiful (through and through) and that’s natural, but if its about him making you feel better about your looks, you’re in danger of seeing the man as ‘rescuer’ and opening yourself up to a whole package of assclownery. We need to accept ourselves if we want a healthy relationship.
Noquai,
thank you for your reply! I overlooked it first (reading on my cell phone). True, for biological reasons etc it is logical that we only want to be with someone we find attractive. But my “problem” is that I hardly ever find anyone that attractive. A lot of the everyday guys that are considered goodlooking…I don’t find them all that great. I really am media spoiled in a way as well. If he doesn’t look like he could be a movie star or a hot athlete etc I will find him too average. And he would have to have a very very amazing wit and brain and way of communicating with me for me to consider him romantic material.
And this bothers me. Because I look at my friends’ men and really don’t find any of them attractive and I look around at couples and wonder.
Am I that picky? Deluded? Obsessed?
My (few) relationships were with guys that weren’t extraordinary goodlooking. I know that their personality mattered and one of them was a big love. But my EUM now is so handsome that I feel he set the bar so high that I can never find any other guy that hot again.
@happy b:
“…that you want a hot boyfriend to show the world that you’re attractive (to him and therefore in general), if I have this right?”
Yes, kind of. I want a hot boyfriend (aside from obviously liking to be physical with someone I find hot and enjoying looking at someone gorgeous – which is all in all the main reason) to feel more attractive or to upgrade my own appearance. Sort of like “if I am with a 10, I have to be an 8 at least” 😉
And also, to be honest (as much as I hate to admit this), to show my friends and family – who probably think I will forever be single – that I had a good reason to be so picky and to wait and to say that I’d rather be along than put up with anyone.
I notice the irony that I seem to be willing to put up with an ambiguous EUM and was willing to fight and fight…
But yeah, I guess that sums it up.
I never openly fangirled for stars, but I’ve always enjoyed watching
And now I am not only deeply disappointed and heartbroken and angry because of how the hot EUM treated me and how it all went down the drain, but also because I feel I will just never meet anyone that has that insane attraction on me.
Arianne , I can understand where you are coming from. I had a short lived affair around four years ago, with a very hot and famous celeb. The world thinks he is fit, women catapult themselves at him, and yes I can’t deny that he is a true ten in the looks stakes. When I first met him, he wasn’t a household name then, I couldn’t stop myself, he was just too beautiful and too practiced at full on charisma attacks.
But god is he a nut job, a mad man, he can’t do intimacy, has a truck load of issues and doesn’t like women that much, although he can’t stop having sex with them. He has no boundaries, so he will do anything.
Of course I would love him to still desire me, in one way, but looks alone do get dull. And all that I would have to put up with just to have handsome and sexy in my life is not enough. I would be dead within in a year honestly, cause underneath the six pack, the perfect features, the husky voice, is a crazy out of control child.
Yes he knows what do between the sheets, yes he has a body to kill for, but he left me so so empty.
It’s hard to find people attractive, but it has to start in a different way for me now. It has to come from people showing up, being emotionally present and shared values and intelligence.
It wont have the ding dong of the celeb, but it’s like learning to swim again in a different pool.
And like Nat’s article states, taking the focus off of them is the way to start.
Louise, thanks for sharing the story and understanding. I totally feel you.
“My” EUM sounds a bit similar (except that he is not that sex crazed and I do think he actually likes women but just can’t deal with them properly, he also has boundaries), and although he is not a celeb, he gets the attention of one.
Which is insane – and I have always made fun of it.
When we went out together, business parties, bars etc, he always got comments on his looks, mostly by men! So I guess this does spoil someone’s character in a way. Because he feels he can have everything he wants, and he can always charm people in his life and I am pretty sure this is one of the reasons why he is the way he is.
Anyway, why I find so tough to let him go and grief the ideal I had of me and him being together, is the handsome, yes, but also that I really liked his humor, his voice, his (superficial..) friendliness, his energy and his intellect.
And I know it doesn’t count because in the end, he is EU and it was clear from the start, but it is so hard for me to believe that I will ever meet anyone again that makes me want to be more than buddies or that makes me fall in love.
I really missed the feeling of being in love because I only had it full on once before. And now this perfect package assclown comes along and I get a glimpse of how great it is to be in love again and to hope it will turn into something good…and then it just all ends up with me being more bitter and disappointed than ever before.
I am trying to focus on ME. I have always done this. I meet my friends, I exercise, I take time for myself, just doing what I want…but I keep wishing things were different.
Arianne, 10+ years, the looks will start wilting, the hair will thin, the 6-pack and all the muscles and the beauty will fade. What will remain of him then for you?
I feel bad for beautiful men. I think most of them have deeply rooted issues with self-esteem, unavailability, narcissism, insecurity, and perhaps even confusion about their sexuality. They are always looking for the greener grass. Someone who will measure all 10 on their scale.
My ex was very handsome and he knew it. He knew he would have no trouble getting a girl and a beautiful one. Hence the proud and snobbish behavior, criticizing others’ looks and weight and flaws (including mine).
Beautiful people are often unhappy and lonely even though they have a wide social network and “successes.”
It’s better to be average looking 🙂
Arianne, I think you just haven’t met a great, a really great average looking guy. Your time will come and you will change your mind.
Hi Sofia, I fully agree with you. Looks will fade and I really want to stress again that I am not falling for guys who are only nice to look at. The EUM that is causing me grief had other qualities I like in men (friendly, funny, self-deprecating!!!, smart etc).
The problem was that he isn’t ready for a relationship, but he also promised me too much as far as job offer and being friends yadda yaddaa..
Typical pattern of course.
“I think most of them have deeply rooted issues with self-esteem, unavailability, narcissism, insecurity, and perhaps even confusion about their sexuality. They are always looking for the greener grass. Someone who will measure all 10 on their scale.”
Definitely agree. I have the impression that it “spoils” a man more when he is beautiful than when a woman is. Maybe because it is rarer, and when a man then is successful and charming, he can just take anything he wants.
With my EUM, it is definitely obvious that he always takes everything for granted, knows that he will always find people he can charm into doing what he wants – yet he is so insecure that he constantly feels the need to be liked and has to prove everyone how nice he is.
Love your last words, but (haha I know, always a BUT) I always had a lot of male friends, and most of them were good guys…yet I could never find any of them attractive.
Good thing is, I am so used to being single and I never wanted kids – so at least I don’t panic because of the biologica clock.
So having a boyfriend for me would really be “just” a plus in my life. Maybe this is why I am so insanely demanding and won’t accept anyone who isn’t what I imagined him to be?
No matter what I write…it always ends in me feeling kind of messed up and immature and like the princess dreaming of the prince 😉
So…there just aren’t any men in your desired strata. Must be good-looking, oh yes he must. And intelligent, aware, empathetic, funny, charistmatic, inspiring. Those qualities are so rare. And only AC has them all. Your AC. My AC. Her AC. His AC. Their ACs.
See…it’s not that rare. We are just deciding that ‘this must be it because I want it to be it with someone who looks and acts like him…..this WILL be IT” and we live lives of ambiguity, benefit of the doubting ourselves into a relationship.
For some reason, we’re hesitant to listen to the way we feel in the trust, care, love and respect departments.
Men pick good-looks too, you know – not all of them, but for most of them – the physical attraction is key. So be aware this sword cuts both ways.
It can’t be any surprise to any of us that very attractive people are favored by most – the 80/20 rule – where 80% of the women want 20% of the men. Or vice versa. My first post to BR asked if we get so hung up on these arseclowns because they are so good-looking.
If only HOT will work for you, then you get to deal with the issues that come with dealing with an extremely attractive mate. Competition from others and the problems that brings. Possible self-absorption by the chosen one. Yes there is HOT and faithful to one – I Guess? – like Sasquatch?
And about women being more financially prepared in life than their potential date. I think men have long resented being given the burden of “providing” for a woman just to have sex with her legally. Some men. Some that I hope you never marry, cuz resentment is a $itch. Anyway…. men too have felt like “You must be crazy to think I am going to pay for your existence. Take care of yourself”, but society tells them they are supposed to take on the provider role. Today, many women are more financially flush than the man they are dating, and we don’t like it, I think, because it is emotionally unsatisfying. He can’t take care of me. It’s a turnoff. Even if you don’t need the financial care it’s a turnoff because we wonder why he didn’t go out to do better for himself. But we don’t expect men to feel that way about women who stay at home.
Something in our independent natures still wants the man to be able to take care of us.
Hi Elgie, I can definitely recognize myself:
“this must be it because I want it to be it with someone who looks and acts like him…..this WILL be IT”
I never had this situation before the EUM/AC now though. But with him, I felt like this HAS to be the guy and I WANT him to be the guy – because he was so close to my ridiculous ideal…except for the important fact that he is a EUM bordering to AC!
It is obvious that people are drawn to attractivness, but I know that I am way more extreme or strict in what is attractive for me. And this is my problem. A lot of the guys girls used to have a crush at school, I never found that attractive. If someone says “he is goodlooking”, I can almost certainly say that I will consider him so-so. And yes, attractivity also depends on attitude, voice (important!) and general “aura”, but I just know I have very high standards.
I guess I have to accept and live with it and not complain then, that I don’t seem to find a partner.
But I found it really true, that when a man is particularly handsome, he really almost always has kind of an AC/EUM personality.
Almost as if it does spoil the charater. The combination of extraordinary good looks, charming behavior and – at best – successful seems to be too much to handle for men so that they feel they have all the power in the world and can do whatever they like…
And I also agree to this:
“Something in our independent natures still wants the man to be able to take care of us.”
Would be nice for a change. I have always been independent, both finanvially and in living my life. Mostly it’s fine, but sometimes I really do wish I had the strong shoulder to lean on, a guy acting like a guy, taking me out, taking care of me.
A friend once told me I seem “too strong” and no man would think I want to be taken care of.
I know this sounds like the excuses frustrated single ladies tell themselves (“Men are scared of me bc I am strong, successful and pretty” 😉 ) but could it be true?
Do a lot of guys maybe really not approach some women because they think they haven’t got a chance, she is too strong, too..this or that..?
You are completely deluded if you believe that a good relationship is based on looks alone.
It is YOU that believes that you will be forever single – and it is the only opinion that counts. Wake up Arianne – reality is not the media – or else.
Yes Oona, strong but very true words.
I identify with that need to prove to the world I won’t be forever single. Then I looked at who I meant by ‘the world’, who I was trying to prove it to, and realised it started with the people that had so badly eroded my sense of self with their subtle but devastating forms of abuse. This is a deep problem and the media will not help!
Hi Oona, I don’t think a relationship can be based on looks alone. Not at all do I think this. And I don’t think I wrote this. That a man needs to have brains (at least that I feel he does), and have a sense of humor and be openminded and social are definite “i wanna have’s” and “musts” for me. (Obviously, I should better also go for “emotional availability” and reliability etc instead of just being blinded by a first full package.)
But I am fully aware that looks do not matter when it comes to functioning respectful relationships.
That said, I wanted to admit to my own issue here, that I do overvalue looks and that I am heavily attracted by handsome man (IF a connection in some other way is there!) and that with the EUM now, it was the first time I really physically longed for a man so much that now I am scared I will dismiss every other man as not attractive….
But I really don’t want a shallow and hot man by my side. If that was my goal (to constantly validate myself), I would have done this or behaved differently, I am sure.
So, no I am not THAT deluded and I also know attraction grows over time and it is not just based on facial features and body, but right now, it will be harder and harder for me to be interested in a guy.
Arianne – your own words that I replied to are :-
‘If he doesn’t look like he could be a movie star or a hot athlete etc I will find him too average.’….
…’And this bothers me. Because I look at my friends’ men and really don’t find any of them attractive and I look around at couples and wonder.
Am I that picky? Deluded? Obsessed?’
‘My (few) relationships were with guys that weren’t extraordinary goodlooking. I know that their personality mattered and one of them was a big love. But my EUM now is so handsome that I feel he set the bar so high that I can never find any other guy that hot again.’
My words Arianne = It is simple you are deluded into believing that your idea of looks equals ‘hot’ and yes it should bother you – you need to redefine what is hot and what exactly love is because at the minute you clearly have no idea and are contradicting yourself all over the place.
Oona, yes, and I stick by these words in that I have ridiculously high standards what I find – just physically – attractive. But I KNOW that a relationship is not based on looks. And for me to fall in love, the personality plays a huge, if not the biggest role. I have never dated anyone just because of their looks. (Even the EUM I fell in love with now had a good first-impression personality – obviously until it got twisted and he showed his true colors or whatever it was that he showed)
Well, maybe I need to redefine what “hot” is…but I am not sure if it is that much of a conscious decision.
Obviously we all have different tastes and perceptions.
Since I am not looking for a reliable babby daddy or someone I can build a house with, I probably prioritize the “superficial” values such as how sexually attracted I feel to a guy, how much we can laugh together, how inspiring I find him etc.
I really miss the being-in-love with someone stage.
But before you chastize me again 😉
Yes, I AM aware that I am confused myself and probably not much better than the EUM that causes me all this drama now.
Arianne
Fully understand. My ex husband and the at work AC are both very handsome and highly intelligent. I certainly will not deal with someone who treats me with disrespect, that I have to support, that I cannot even have a decent convo with. I have tried to force myself to be attracted or at least act attracted to average, low income, lower intelligence sorts of dudes and it is impossible. In this town I am under a lot of pressure from friends/colleagues to either settle or accept old maid-dom. No can do. As an environmentalist/social justice activist mixed race, fairly successful older chick there are men that have obsessed/stalked me and men that literally have wished me dead. No idea of where I fall league-wise. The important thing is that I feel the same about myself regardless of who I am dealing with at any one time whether it be someone hot or the poorest of the poor here. “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent”- Eleanor Roosevelt
Why would an AC wish us dead?
The Ac I once dated looks at me as though he wants to kill me.
And when we dated, he pulled the disappearing act after date 3. WE’d go 3 weeks without seeing each other. He claimed that he was looking for a job. (I thought he meant work-related, not sex-related!)
I don’t get it.
You will remind them of who they are really not the fantasy they want to believe they are.
Bingo.
Used,
I Don’t get it!
You are married, and dated this guy years ago, yet still bring him up in almost everyone of your posts.
Are you in love with this man, or obsessed? I don’t understand why you hold on to this, and not let it go. I mean, who cares what he’s thinking or doing.
Too many people knew we dated, therefore too many people paying too much attention to what is going on. I need to stay one step ahead. Of him. Of everyone. I don’t need bad energy, especially not in my career (which is all about reputation), and ESPECIALLY not in my personal life.
At the same time, I feel very guilty about NC. Until this jerk, my nose was kept 100% clean, in all ways, in all realms.
Thank you for your concern.
Plus, I don’t get people like this. And birds of a feather flock together. So many of those who knew we dated and who are watching us when we are at the same event, party, whatever together are ACs, like him.
Sorry Used, I see I misread where you write “…many of those who knew we dated and who are watching us when we are at the same event, party, whatever together are ACs” as your friendship circle. I think I must have been thinking of other posts by you where you have talked about your husband and closer acquaintances/friends in relation to this ex but I’m not sure.
Having said that, your comments still seem to touch the heart of this article – bring yourself and your life into focus. How are you using your career to explain away your lack of self care, respect and trust?Do you really believe you need to be expendable for the sake of your reputation with ACs from your past.
“Too many people knew we dated, therefore too many people paying too much attention to what is going on. I need to stay one step ahead. Of him. Of everyone.”
What does the above have to do with you other than it being what you tell yourself other’s expect from you. Others with whom you do not have reciprocal healthy relationships with? There’s no controlling what other’s think – only what you think.
Used, you are in a toxic situation regarding your entire circle of friends and even your husband by the sound of it. You play a part in this dynamic, being over focused on and hyper aware of (over self conscious)how you are viewed by others (and how you perceive you are viewed). Do you have any close, nurturing and reciprocally supportive relationships? – caring, respectful and trust worthy people in your life with whom you can be yourself? We get on with living our own lives when we commit to putting our time and energy into caring and respecting ourselves and those who share our basic values and reciprocate. You are not indifferent to this ex – you use a lot of energy to ignore him and then think about him many years down the track. You are also participating in poor friendship dynamics if I read you correctly. Perhaps this is why you still choose to call yourself used.
You can change your version of normal, you can change your status quo to quote Nat. But this might involve some serious action on your part and a conscious attempt to pull yourself up when the usual thought sequences (the ‘story’)kick off. Put the focus back on you- discover that you deserve care, trust, respect and love in your relationship with yourself. From there your external relating to others will begin to reflect your better self esteem.
Ask yourself this if you want: What immediate actions can I take to respect and care better about myself?
You are absolutely correct.
I have never had a normal friendship in my life. But I have been the good friend–in the highest sense of the word–to others.
Sad to say, there is no avoiding people like this–it’s part of the culture I come from. I have to make friends outside of my culture. But that is hard, too.
We are not in the same field, but my field is all about reputation, keeping your nose clean, avoiding scandal, not looking like the loser (though the women around me ALL want to make me out to be the loser, not him, even though he is a major jerk)–we have friends in our circle who are in the same field that I am in.
I feel badly about NC not as to him–I don’t feel badly about how I treat him at all!–I am proud of how I have always handled him–I feel badly that, despite my having kept my nose clean, being a decent person, etc. throughout my life really means nothing when this guy tarnished it all: he gives people a reason to talk. Also, he made me look like the loser: mutual friends talk about how great his life is (he does have a great career), to make me feel like I wasn’t “chosen”–to make me feel like a loser. I always just say, when people ask me if I know him (after they just finished bragging about him), “I don’t know him”–which is true! (He never let me in. I never got to know the real him.)
Women work against each other in my culture–it literally IS a harem mentality.
Used, I still think you and only you can change the *story* or better yet drop the story above. By this I mean what goes through your head. These people don’t *make* you feel like you weren’t chosen, like you are a “loser” – you do. You do it by focussing on them, on him, on what you imagine is going on in their heads, or perhaps what they may or may not be saying about you. Why? You are disappointed and want some return on your investment – where is your reward for keeping your nose clean you seem to be wondering. Well, how odd that you would expect a return from him or validation from people who have no interest in you beyond the mercenary and with whom you do not have mutually caring and respectful relationships with! Invest in and for yourself. I get that this may be difficult as it is tied to feeling that you have intrinsic value and self worth. So you would need to work on self esteem too. Especially on patterns that have you seeking external validation from unfit sources (ie dickhead and all those who you are so beholden to for your reputation).
To repeat, if you work on respecting and caring and trusting yourself there will be change – inside you – but you have to shift your focus off what you cannot control – that is what they think etc. *You cannot change or control other people*. Or you can remain in the toxic mind set as you are but understand this is of your own volition.
“I feel badly that, despite my having kept my nose clean, being a decent person, etc. throughout my life really means nothing when this guy tarnished it all: he gives people a reason to talk.”
Used, To add,
With regard to what you say here, again you feel like this because you have been decent/behaved a certain way with the hope of return/reward from others who are not interested in vslidating your decency. Put another way – they have no interest in validating your worth or confirming that you’re good enough. That must be a painful realisation, but Used, you don’t have to keep repeating this in your head. A good professional may help you untangle all this and help you begin the honest conversation with yourself. But you and only you can take that first step to choose you.
Thank you for your help here. You clarified some things, enlightened me on others, and helped me see it all much more clearly.
Have to say, I thought high-school ended a looong time ago. But high school wasn’t this nasty.
I do go back a long way with some of these people. (Over 25 years.) You are correct: it doesn’t matter.
I need to start new hobbies and other activities. ASAP. Thank you again, lizzyp.
Used,
Lizzp has given you great advice!
I totally agree that this is more about you than them. You have done noting and should not care what he has said. Good Lord, how many years has it been now? Im curious what industry you’re in, and where you live.
Time to change your social circle and move on from this drama!
Allison–
U.S.-born & raised, as all of us in our circle are. We are all professionals who earn our living via our reputations & connections/customers. Even the AC.
IF the AC has said something about me, it is that I chased him (which isn’t true) & that I was too easy (which also isn’t true–we never had sex!). What he says doesn’t bother me–it’s the fact that he looks like he has it all (looks, charm, career, income, sense of humor, etc. etc.) & people throw this in my face: “See, Used, he is doing so great at x,y,z, while you & your husband aren’t at x,y,z.” He seriously has married harem members, some of them being women who always said he was a jerk, to even his wife; meanwhile, I get treated badly, by the same people. This I don’t get.
Funny part is, his wife has blown off the very same women who treat me badly & stood by her through all of the b.s. that he threw her way. Why? (Because the AC is successful & they want to stand in his shadow?) Even if they go back a long way, these women share MY values, not the AC’s.
It’s like I am trying to reform them! To get them to turn around!
I love the part where Nat mentions about “growing up.” And that is why she also says to focus on “yourself”.
@PhoenixRising – my opinion, stop trying to be friends with your ex. Focus moving on for yourself, like he did. If you start doing things that make you happy, you will think of him less and less. And stop blaming yourself for whatever perceived guilt you’re holding yourself hostage. We all make mistakes… Re-read where Nat mentions how we will choose different guy, same package.
I decided after being around AC/EUM’s for 14 years, and the fact that I am now 39, and don’t have my sh!t completely together, I couldn’t care less what these assclowns are up too. “Growing up.” It’s about being a woman, with integrity, holding your own, and stop being in denial and feeling “not good enough”. That way of thinking has really led me to some dark places, until I decided not to date anyone.. Not give a damn what these ‘men’ are up to… But working on actually being a grown up. And taking care of myself and my family.
Know when to cut someone off, when you are not happy or have a “meh” feeling. I recently just did that with someone I thought was genuine, I can sit and wallow in anger and disappointment, however, I’m glad I didn’t waste a lot of time on this person. I’m done. There are no second chances. I think we sometimes have too much hope about certain people, give too much the benefit of the doubt… And that’s where we make our mistakes. Ask yourself… Am I ‘happy’? Forget what they look like, how successful they are, how funny they are, how ‘alone’ you feel, how good in bed they are. If they are not there for you, making you happy. Woman-up, (grow up), and move the hell on already. Denial is a bitch, thinking too much about other people and feeling guilty for thinking about yourself, and not hanging around hoping these people will change ‘this time’, is wasting your life away on people who definitely don’t deserve it.
We need to stop living in these ‘stories’ about things that happened years ago, months ago, or last week. It’s done. That time is gone. Who cares what he/she ‘did’, care about today and the fact that your ‘stinking thinking’ is holding you back in the real world. Get with ‘today’, grow up, and go do something that makes you, or go help someone in need. Think of doing something nice for someone in your family, call a friend you haven’t talked to in awhile. I don’t know, go bake a friggin’ cake. That will make you feel a whole lot better, and boost your self esteem then not doing a damn thing but worrying about people you shouldn’t be.
Woman-up!
Demke, tough and brilliant words! We need to know when to quit.
Dito, great words, Demke.
Amen!
Love it.
Hi everyone 🙂
In my experience, focusing on myself has been one of the hardest things I have ever had to do. I found that I put external people (especially unworthy men) on pedestals. I would often take what little I knew about them and create pedestal-worthy characterizations. All the while, I would position myself underneath said pedestal 🙁 Even when their actions failed to match my ideas of them, I did everything I could to keep the illusions going. Sometimes, as in my case, those actions *force* you to face the truth.
Example 1: An AC that I once considered a good friend harbored ill will toward me. Although he had a much “better” education and more fulfilling job than I did, he sought every opportunity to put me down. He knew my life circumstances, decided to use this as material in a comedic routine, but asked me if other people would be offended. During our last conversation, I told him we could no longer be friends after he told me potential employers would throw my resume in the trash. I decided that my friends don’t do such things, and I terminated. FLUSH (after 17 years)!
Example 2: An EUM who is recently divorced decided that although he wasn’t ready for a serious relationship with me that it would be ok to pursue a FWB situation and attempted to press me into that zone.
Example 3: I called bullisht on a future faker who told me things would get better once he changed jobs. I found that he was very obviously dripfeeding me information he knows would’ve sent me running for the hills much earlier had he disclosed it. In addition, I showed much effort in the beginning and when I became aware that he was only showing as much effort as was convenient, I backed way off.
When these people ask why the change, I have found myself anxiety-free when I tell them the unbridled truth. It helps tremendously that I have kept the focus directed to me – just to maintain perspective.
When I realized I would lay down my life for the protection of my very young cousins (also external people), I learned to think of myself in the third person in an effort to become more objective about my needs and to focus more keenly on myself. It hasn’t been easy, but I find that it has been especially helpful. I try not to fantasize and work hard to see things as they really are – even when it hurts.
This year, I walked away from two “friendships” (see above) and my ten-year long job that were no longer working for me. I learned that when something “doesn’t feel right” for me, I experience a nagging anxiety that won’t go away until I perform some action. This feeling helps me make decisions.
I just thought I would share my experience just in case anyone is having a hard time focusing on the internal self.
I have been reading and re-reading BR for 2 1/2 years. In that time, I have learned many lessons about myself. I am thankful that this website exists and that so many people share their stories and advice.
Hi Reversal. Your post really reasonated with me. I have been working on focusing on myself for the last 6 years. I had spine surgery (chiropractor error) and lost both my parents and two siblings in a year. All the while my employer kept asking more and more of me.
I was the classic people pleaser, over-giver. My focus was mostly external. I desperately wanted to make everyone love me, approve of me, not reject me…let me feel worthy of taking up space in their world. When these traumatic events happened so close together, I could no longer continue my role…I didn’t have it in me, I didn’t seem to have anything in me except rage and grief. Rage at how I was being treated by my employer and myself for accepting their treating me like an object to be exploited rather than a person for 3 years. And rage at my parents for the abuse, neglect, dismissiveness and lack of interest in me.
I was forced to face reality. I could no longer stuff down the rage and hurt. I could no longer deny that I was allowing myself to be treated poorly. I went with it whole heartedly! I quit my job. I dove into the rage and grief and allowed myself to wallow for as long as I needed. When after a month after the 3rd death in my family “friends” said, “you need to get over it and move on”, I allowed myself to see that they were not friends, in fact they were selfish jerks and I didn’t care what the F they thought. My grief wasn’t about them, helping them, convienient for them, so I wasn’t suppose to feel it or express it. I gave myself permission to not only recognize how I let other people dictate how I should think and feel about something and exploit the hell out of my eagerness to please them.
I learned a lot about who was there for me and who wasn’t. Mostly, I was alone. Even my 18 year old daughter bailed. As painful as it was, I allowed myself to accept it and grieve it. I had not taught her to respect me as I was a doormat.
It was a gift. I was forced to grow up and face reality. I have since chucked the old “friends” who were only therw when they were getting their way and I didn’t require equality. I have rejected jobs where I sense the employer has a propensity for abuse. I choose to require equality in my relationships and when the other person has an issue with me setting boundaries, I don’t waste time anymore wondering what it is about me that makes them act that way. I am not responsible for how they respond and they are not responsible for me, for making me feel worthy and powerful…not helpless.
Bottome line is I am working on staying present and stopping giving away my power. When I was small and powerless and helpless I survived by believing the only way to survive and to be worthy was to give away my power of choice and everything else I had to offer. It was a great survival mechanism that no longer serves me as an adult.
I have come to recognize I am attracted to “powerful” people because I feel (believe I am) powerless and helpless. I’m looking to feel powerful by being with that person but what it really does is reinforce the belief that I am powerless and helpless! So all of the “powerful”, self-absorbed, uncaring people I was so attracted to are not so attractive anymore. I have looked at the patterns and work to stay in reality and when I see that they bristle at having boundaries and equality in the relationship and or don’t show other signs of true caring and respect (listening, being there for each other, honesty, consistent kindness). I’ve had the power all along that I was looking for in other people.
The only time we do not have power in any situation is when we believe we don’t…so we give it away by not believing we have it.
I chose to acknowledge my power to choose take responsibility for my choices/actions, my power to change my thoughts/beliefs, my power to change my circumstances, my power to take control of my life.
There has been another “friend” in my life for 25 years. I had him on such a high pedestal. He is such a fraud…and so was I. I thought he would make me powerful worthwhile and I probably did something similar for him. Everytime I saw evidence of his being selfish and uncaring, I made an excuse for it. I woke up when he sent me an email response to the announcement of the funeral for the 4th family member. It said “I won’t be there.” I let it sink in and the old thinking wanted desperately to make that realization go away, but I hung in there and stayed in reality. He wasn’t or isn’t ever really going to be there for me, not in the way I need him to be. It has taken me years of backing out slowly of this relationship and paying very close attention to his actions and words. It’s been hard for me to let him go because this is the last of my old “friendships” and one of the longest standing. I’ve realized that as I get more distant, he keeps upping the anty, telling me I’m perfect and a pearl of great worth, then dissapearing for a while. When I ask him about what he means by these things he always plays it off like it’s innocent. He’s screwing with my mind and many other women’s mind and claiming innocence and no harm(He’s a devout Christain who I believe thinks this is a shield from bad behavior). The last straw was a few weeks ago he sent an email saying he “would have hard time keeping his eyes off me at an event but that he would be a gentleman”.
I was so pissed I cannot begin to tell you! He is not kind – he is selfish. He does not care about me, he cares about me stroking his big ass ego. It’s emotional sabatoge and a power play. He feels powerful because I keep giving him mine and paying attention to him.
Reality is not always pretty, but neither is denial.
I have less people in my life now, but the people who I choose to let in now add to my life, not just take. I still wrestle with feeling selfish, but when that happens I stand outside of myself and ask if I would think someone else would be selfish/mean for choosing that same thing. Nope. I’ve learned to accept I have been guilt’s bitch for too long.
I’m making choices based on what’s good for me. I choose to decide what I want and then decide if the person/situation meets that criterea. Like you, I go by my gut, if I get that feeling something’s not right, I pay attention to it. I recently cancelled a date with a guy ’cause he didn’t listen to me. In the past I would have not acknowledged it or would have minimized it or made an excuse for it, but this time I chose to honor my feelings. I value being heard, he didn’t value listening to me. Not a match. I get lonely sometimes, but who doesn’t. I take those times to learn about myself and do something kind for myself and it passes.
My life is completely different that it was 6 years ago and I can honestly say I have never been happier!
Thank you Nat for your sage wisdom and everyone on this site for yours as well. It provides love, support and solace.
Peace
Thanks Veracity. I can hear where you are coming from and I can identify with a lot of what you say. I’ve been reading BR for a good few months and been so ‘supported’ by Nat’s articles and all the comments. At 55, I’m only beginning to understand what’s been going on. Why now? I’ve had five years of turbulence – breast cancer treatments (for primary and recurrence), husband of 21 years cheating & leaving me, mother passing on, single parenting teenage son, becoming grandmother multiple times, and amazingly painful relationship with an EUM/AC encountered through dating site. I’m a text book door mat. But I know it now! The future’s bright – the future’s ME! And that does work. Ever since I have taken my attention back on to me, things have fallen into place, I’ve had fun, I’ve had the right people to talk to, and I’ve realised that the loveliest place in the world is my bed, on my own. And because I truly feel that, I can love my EUM/AC, and all the stupid, silly stuff he brings which entertains me – I get what I want from him – but at the end of the day I can retreat to my nest and love my solitude. I don’t blame him any more – I look at how he was parented, how I was parented, even how I have parented my children, and I feel enormous compassion…. But. All that Notwithstanding (!), I try and put MY needs first. Wow. That’s hard, but it works….
Wow! Veracity!
‘The only time we do not have power in any situation is when we believe we don’t…so we give it away by not believing we have it.’
I completely agree – power plays can look so innocent on the surface – if we tell ourselves that’s what they are – until we are forced to see otherwise with some dramatic and truely horrible/painful turn of event, when we can no longer ignore what is in front of our own noses.
Love, love, love this. Go Veracity!
Thanks! It was my first post and I hadn’t planned on writing so much, but it came flooding out! 🙂
A very well-timed article as always! My first and only relationship so far last for 4 years, on and off, with a guy who would make me jump hoops but not do anything for me. I ultimately ended it. In the process of healing, I find I’m still attracting/attracted to people who eventually reveal themselves to be control freaks, manipulative, or EUM.
They usually start out as acquaintances. In the early stages, they seem perfectly harmless; no red flags. But as Nat says, people unfold, and these guys really show themselves when they do! They don’t hurt me, per se, but it’s obvious they’re not available for the kind of relationship that I’m looking for, whether it’s because they’re still immature, have other problems going on, or what.
Thankfully, I discovered this before I even got into a relationship with them and acted accordingly. But I’m curious why I’m drawn to them and they to me? Could it be because they stand out among the rest? Is it possible I look easily manipulated (I tend to believe in the best in others even though I’m still cautious)?
Need advice so I can avoid them in the future!
Hello Robin
Check out Natalie’s posts on red and amber flags – they ARE the warnings you need to allow yourself to see, to avoid relationships with these people.
You need to do honest work on yourself to find out why you believe that you deserve these kind of non relationships – why are you acting lesser towards yourself and not allowing yourself to see the signs?
You need somewhere that you can honestly share what you believe you may be seeing – at the time so that you can determine the best response for yourself and it needs to be somewhere that you can get as honest a feedback to what you are perceiving as possible.
Go easy on yourself – you WILL see these people all around you now because there are alot – it does not mean that you are attracting them like a magnet – it just means that now you are seeing them for who they are – and now you can put steps in place to avoid them. It takes time to learn how to cope with them appropriately – in the meantime be gentle on yourself – Rome wasn’t built in a day – and just knowing you are suseptable to poor relationships is the first great great leap to finding yourself in a great relationship that nutures and sustains you and them.
Thanks, Oona! I’ve been more careful and making sure to listen to what I want as well as what other people want, and see if our needs/boundaries fit each other.
As to being so susceptible to bad relationships, part of it is familiarity. The other part is that I used to think I only deserved to be with my ex because I made mistakes before that hurt other people. I’m realizing that even though I’ve been away from that relationship for 2 years now, my ex really chipped away at my self-esteem and my self-image in small ways. He never sounded nasty, but he gave “advice” on how I should “improve” and would tell me that other girls were “cute” to my face. He didn’t make me feel loved and cared for; I had to fight for my own boundaries with him. Heck, even my acquaintances treated me far better than that!
Yes Robin – it was when I finally experienced being with someone and feeling actual love and a security like I’ve never known in company with another person before, that I finally put the final piece in the jigsaw – meaning that if I’m not feeling that feeling I experienced with this gentleman – a complete security in love and respect – I am not feeling loved and respected for being myself – no matter what their resume says or their appearance/words are or what I may think I want! – and therefore they don’t deserve my undivided love and respect — but this came after lots and lots of ups and downs on the roller coaster slowly, slowly getting to less wild lurches from one side to the other.
Really good con artists can be very convincing but we are the best masters at conning ourselves and I think you are so right – in my experience it does seem to be connected to what I have been familiar with – the pattern – and the more I am less familiar with it in my other relationships and day to day life, the better the relationships that have come as a result (with some big f888 ups, still, but nothing nearly so bad as I have done).
It takes time to be alert to it, and unravel it fully but is so worth it (put the theory into practice). I am currently working on not running from successful relationships – which is a new pattern entirely – not perfect but better than anything I have experienced before.
I feel from what you say about knowing/testing boundaries and needs – you are well on your way and I am really really pleased to read this Robin – its so amazing what can be achieved once the fog goes but I also know what it feels like to have the fog come down temporarily every now and then, a cloud or two, – I think its to keep us on our toes? Its quite amazing who we’ve shut out of our lives over the years and when the fog clears you look back and see wonderful people that were sitting on the side lines all those years that you didn’t even see at the time – to anyone out there who is seeing this now take heart – those acquaintances now have the chance they never had in the past, to finally become something worthwhile.
OO and yes forgiving yourself/learning to forgive yourself and allowing yourself to not be perfect now or in the past – is also a really important step to de fogging your life totally and set you looking for a better fits definately – thank you for reminding me.
Robin
Such folk approach everyone! That they do unfold means you are detecting their red flags and acting accordingly. Anytime one meets another, there’s some element of risk, of time wastage. There’s no real shortcuts here. I have found, as a Northerner, that there is a far greater tolerance here in the West for dishonesty and cheating; behaviors that’d make you persona non grata back home; there’s much less accountability. Cultural differences can be huge. In the old times, when you met someone within community, you often already knew a lot about them. Not so anymore. All one can do now is to not emotionally attach at all until you know what you’re dealing with.
I am listening to a video on NC. And I think that this r-ship I had was not exactly there. I had the hot-cold, and the pursuit, and the ignoring etc., but I dont think he is going to call to make sure I am on standby (I still see him in our larger group). Also, I dont chase him, not having initiated anything with him for months (But I have responded to him). And I have had no time to grieve the loss of the relationship the multiple times that it has ended, because he has kept chasing and pursuing and pulling back immediately. And often its in the most strange ways. E.g. asking to share a flat and I said absolutely not and then I asked why are we not dating but only doing this strange dance of ambiguous friends that aren’t saying anything (this was before the most EU/AC behavior kicked in, I stopped conversations about dating after that which is also him managing down my expectations) and thats when he said he was in a bad place to date, he’s going to be a bad boyfriend etc (classic EU words).. So living together worked for him, but not dating (?!!) – which is a strange form of rejection of me basically.
And I have never had to ask someone before why we aren’t dating, you either are or not – its that our friendship was so much like dating, the structure of dating, movies, dinner, drinks, flirting, but no real moves made for a long time.
I am going to try and bring the focus back to me. Its strange in that I read BR for months and had no relationship, and now I have fallen into the definition of EU and potential AC. We went from ambiguous friends, to ambiguous daters, to a brief period of no-strings which has resulted in him totally withdrawing from me. I realize this is not even FWB because we are not friends anymore, and the benefits are totally on his timetable.
This guy wanted to not have a relationship, wanted a no-strings set up where even the next meeting is not determined and cannot be talked about, there are no expectations at all, he doesnt call/write for a long time (and thankfully I am not so hooked that I pursue but I am obsessing because ..I feel used? I feel rejected? I feel like I won’t meet anyone else? It was fun in the moment but then so alienating and confusing?). I thought I could do something no strings but once you’ve been ambiguous friends for so long the strings are there. I also realize that perhaps I can only do ‘casual’ right in the beginning in the figuring out phase – after 3-4 times of casualness, you either move to something a bit more consistent or call it quits.
I want to forgive myself for liking someone so flawed, have enough compassion for him that I dont hate him and can be civil but not so much that I get back into it or let my guard down again.
Brave lady, Suki. Well said.
Of course you feel used, and rejected. That’s OK; it’s normal. It will pass – and it will pass much sooner if you go NC with this very dodgy man.
He actually sounds like a bit of a bore. Is he?
ha ha Ethelreda the Unready; yes, he might well be a bit of a bore, he seems that way now.
He seems very bright actually, smart, well dressed, pleasing, ‘nice’. He’s also a bit of a charmer, a flirt, he turns it on for every woman, needs a lot of validation from women of all ages. He is also entirely full of it, I take most of what he says as b.s. [at least I did when I was less hooked, I should remember that] – anything about relationships or women or even about himself, I (need to) discount. E.g. he says he doesnt know what he wants. Man, that is classic empty EU words – he wants sex and affection without responsibility, commitment, or consequences, its just easier to say that empty bs which we women have come to condone. Or that he doesnt want a relationship – after months of ambiguous friends/dating, there is a relationship anyway so thats just wishful thinking and engineering on his part (he said that right after sleeping with me, as in right after). Its also insulting in that he already told me that and I dont have amnesia; so when a man says that, he’s also assuming that you’re just dying for a relationship with him or engineered to have sex just to have that elusive ‘relationship’. ugh. Or he said that he is swayed into doing things by what other people want – this was his explanation for hitting on another woman almost deliberately to ensure that I saw it happen for the entire evening (we have never officially dated so he is free to do pretty much anything but hitting on someone in front of me remains probably the tackiest). such a red flag…
The problem is if the situation is ambiguous you can’t even write an email without feeling stupid – i mean he could be dating someone else by now for all you know. Plus if you ask him out and he says no, you dont know if that means no, dont call me again, or no, lets do it next week. If you write to a friend and they are busy, you dont take it personally – they are your friend in an ongoing relationship. You write an EU and you dont know where you stand. Thats the whole thing. Hence I never write him which means its all on his terms. They thrive on that because they dont want relationships, they dont want intimacy because they dont want consequences. I find it exhausting and it makes me feel so much less than … I think me as part EU dont want intimacy because I feel I dont deserve it – instead I am willing to be passive and I take care of the consequences, commitment and affection – so my type of EU is perfect match for the EU/AC. I am not commitment phobic and I am not averse to giving affection consistently and maintaining relationships – but I pick men who are.
And the longer it goes on the more you lose perspective. I have to keep calling friends and asking ‘he’s an a%%hole isn’t he’ because I am unable to do this for myself.
Suki- Suki, Suki, Suki. Speaking of getting our minds off of other people and figuring out our own needs…replace your name with another poster’s in your story and you would be all over her case for putting up with that nonsense and you would be telling her how much he doesn’t care let’s count the ways…Suki, start following your own advice! As you said, a couple casual encounters are forgivable, even understandable. More than that? It needs to lead to a relationship or it needs to stop. You’re just not that desperate to be liked. C’mon, Suki, even EU people can have standards, right? Your way too good for this nonsense! Your practical, encouraging advice about a year ago helped me to regain a sense of moving forward when all I could think was “I’m screwed”. You DO deserve a real relationship!
Thank you Rosie 🙂 you made me smile. I forget that I deserve a real relationship sometimes – including non-romantic ones. I am very good with my long-term friendships, I invest, I maintain and I have cultivated some amazing relationships etc., but casual friendships and relationships throw me, I can feel bad about being excluded from some social events even when I dont really like those people too much! So this has reminded me again that I have plenty of friends, plenty of people that care, and I need to raise and maintain my standards for who is in my life.
I’m glad to get advice from you and from friends/family – when I give advice to people on BR its exactly for this reason, the advice giver sees things clearer than you do, you’re still in it. I am still sad and upset about it, including at myself for getting involved and staying involved for so long, but I can see now that I need to move on. Before this I was passive and let him call the shots not that I thought he was so great or put him on a pedestal but that I just let it happen, maybe still had hope. Again, I let people into my life that didn’t treat me well and that I started to disrespect as it unfolded – if you keep engaging in such a situation, it comes back to bite you. I am struggling with needing to see him as a jackass so I can stop engaging, and needing to let go and forgive and not make him into a monster. Perhaps I just need to see him as flawed in a way that doesnt work for me. It might be too soon to forgive him, I need to move on and forgive myself first.
Suki- Yes, it’s painful. Yes, it’s hard to know what’s more painful–being mistreated or staying in a mistreating situation. I think the latter can be more painful because we know, deep down, we’re betraying ourselves.
It’s also difficult to know what strategy works best–demonizing or what NFL ssys, “We want different things.” My problem with demonizing is it builds him up to be larger than life. I’ve got this monster of a man in my head and, then, when I hear from him again, it’s “Oh, he’s really not that bad…” But the whole, “We want different things” approach leaves me feeling a little…I don’t know…like it’s leaving out dome critical information like what he wants is to keep me on the shelf and just take me down to play when he’s bored or horny…Honestly, what worked for me was just owning what I want–a relationship–and just accepting that I wouldn’t be able to have one with him. And let myself be sad about it.
“NFL” should be “NML”. I don’t know why my phone insists on “helping” me. I did not ask it for help.
[by the end of this post i conclude that seeing him as a monster or at least AC IS the way to go at least for now! i need to move on, and then i can forgive]
I am responsible, for liking him despite knowing he’s a jackass, and letting him back into my life over and over again although he’s been so disrespectful and immature. There is no future with him, I dont even want to see him. Its the lack of closure, and the number of times I’ve had to grieve this relationship which never even started that really gets me. I have not contacted him for months, all the contact is on his side, plus I see him in the larger circle. I have avoided some events so as to not run into him.
He vaguely lazily and kind of in an ugh way hit on someone else again in our social circle in my hearing a couple of days ago. I didn’t react at all. He also contacted me about dinner that same night but thankfully I missed the call.
The anger is getting to me. This isn’t the first time he’s backed off from me – basically dumped me, and he got better and better at dumping me without even starting a relationship or having a conversation anymore, he just dropped out. But its like this is the time he’s dumped me after sex and it feels worse because we shared something so intimate and also fun – its like he didn’t want to date, still hit on me and then backed off, didn’t want a relationship, still hit on me and backed off again, and now he’s dumped me after casual sex indicating he doesnt want that either – once he’s had it that is. So first he managed down my expectations, then he left me hanging without even an email (he used to contact me far more earlier when we were just ambiguous friends, and we got along and I did not pursue him in that time) that he didn’t even want the absolute minimum from me. I didn’t even get a break up post-it. And he’s STILL asking me to dinner (last minute of course).
I mean when I say this I realize he is an AC. And I realize I have been far too passive in dealing with him. What I am doing is the right thing – I have to process through the anger, I am avoiding him which is good, I am only seeing him in bigger groups and I cannot avoid that too much because I dont want to opt out of my social life but also I have mentally made my peace with possibly cutting full contact including with the social circle so if it becomes too much I will. Phew.
As I finish crying again, I read another post on here. I have been a reader for 2 years, and some of these words are only now really sinking in.
A week ago I was doing everything to move and be with my boyfriend of a year and a half. He lives an hour away, so we decided I should work on moving in. I was putting my house up for sale, fixing things for buyers, studying and taking the GRE, preparing grad applications for next fall, had previously arranged my good job to be 4 days a week gig so I could head up to his house on Thursdays rather than Friday. And it all ended last Thursday.
We were fighting about me moving, all of the things I was doing to make it happen. I had been trying for the past month to talk more about specifics on finances, whether he was ready for more commitment, and he got upset when I addressed the fact that we weren’t talking about things and I was worried about making such big changes. At the break up via a phone call he told me ‘it’s neither of our faults, we tried, it just didn’t work.’
And as I sit and get mad, sad, indifferent, and all those waves of emotions, more and more red flags pop up in my mind. I have filled pages of bullet points of them. He was going through a divorce when I’d met him, his feelings for his exwife were not neutral (she had had an affair 2 years prior), all the future faking, him telling me he was ready, loved me, the lack of communication, certain topics were off topic ie his exwife and her continued relationship with the other man, all the half-hearted promises thrown my way, his better than everyone sense of self, me meeting and looking after his two boys bonding with them, me going up there every weekend, all the sex he expected, all those ambiguous responses, all the while me thinking he was the one.
As it’s over I look back on things and wonder why I let myself do it all. I saw what it was from the beginning, again in the middle, and even more clearly at the end. This article has hit home because I have been blaming myself for not being strong enough earlier. For buying in and rationalizing his behaviors. I wanted it to work so badly that I even thought the distance in the beginning would help him heal from his failed marriage (he came down 2x a week and me every other weekend before meeting the boys, and every weekend after meeting them).
Since the break up I have cut contact, got my things from his house last Saturday, and I asked him not to be there when I did. He had all my things gathered in his living room, including a spoon of mine, yep. Oddly that little step, asking him to go get coffee while I packed was empowering. It has given me some control over the breakup and my part in it.
I know there are a lot of things I need to address and accept in order to heal and move forward in a positive way. I think I need to start by working on forgiving myself.
ready to listen – I’m so, so sorry that you’re in such a lot of pain. I wish I could fast-forward you six months to the place where this all looks like a lucky escape!
This reminded me so much of what happened to me, back in 1993 – I was just thinking about it this morning, oddly enough, on the way to work. I was engaged, and we were coming up for our marriage ceremony in April that year.
But since around September 1992, his behaviour had been changing – sour arguments, refusal to get involved in wedding planning, deliberately picking fights, becoming increasingly violent (it was a domestic violence situation anyway; I was very young and very isolated and lost).
I kept offering to postpone/cancel the wedding, but his response was ‘I’ve promised to marry you, and I’m going to go through with it.’ Those romantic words that every bride-to-be wants to hear …
It was like being in a parallel universe. There was my universe, where we were in love, cared for each other, and were going to get married and have kids. And there was his universe, where he was going to go to another university in another state to do doctoral work, with or without me. Talk about ‘when worlds collide’.
One day he came over to my shared flat and sat there glowering at me as my housemate and I watched ‘My Fair Lady’ on TV. Finally he said to me, ‘I can see myself hating you in ten years’ time’. He stormed out.
And that, ladies and gents, was the last straw for this particular long-suffering, patient-Griselda-the-camel’s back. I took off the engagement ring, I packed his stuff up that was lying around my flat, and put it on the front lawn. I rang him to tell him to come and get it, and that I was cancelling everything. I then cancelled everything, and told everyone.
I wish I could say that was it, but I had no one to advise me about NC in those days, so he went to another state, and the thing dragged out over the phone for another six months, but then I wised up and went NC, and have been that way ever since.
But I always knew that I’d done the right thing in breaking off the engagement. I think you too have done the right thing in your situation, because he is NOT on the same page as you, and he is SCARED SHITLESS by what is being proposed here.
I know you have invested time and effort here, but you are going to have to let him go. He will either figure it out, or not. Either way, he is NOT your problem at the moment.
YOU are your problem.
YOU are the one who has been badly let down by the man you trusted.
YOU are the one who needs a lot of care and protection and love right now.
I copped quite a bit of flak for breaking off my engagement, especially just three short months before the wedding, but that just told me who my real friends were. Now is the time for you to be finding those real friends as well – the ones who will support you in this decision.
@Ethelreda the Unready
Thanks for the encouragement, I need it right now. Part of me wishes you could fast forward to 6 months from now! Although I think I need to get through now and learn from this brokenness.
The harder parts of no contact is that I used to hear from him 4 times a day, and, for being an hour away, we spent so much damn time together. Thanksgiving was me crying on and off for most of the day. I was looking forward to being there and together. I can say I’m proud of myself for being strong, not texting or calling, and working though this hurt. But man is it hard. I do know I don’t want to restart this cycle of hurt.
It sounds like with your experience, you had to deal with and let go of a lot of hurt as well. The good and the bad of the relationship. That’s the confusing part because when it was good it was great and there’s a created future and happiness., But when it was bad it was fighting / wanting to leave / feeling disposable / feeling not good enough. That’s what I have swirling around in my mind- the good with lots of promise, and then lurking in the background all the messed up stuff.
You are right that it is now about me. And I was badly let down by a man that I trusted. I am keeping that in perspective and leaning on all my support. Thank god for friends, family, this blog, and my dog.
ready, he and I were so close, I didn’t know where he ended and I began.
I remember looking inside and thinking, ‘If I cut this guy out of my heart, I will bleed to death’.
So instead I did a visualisation that he was like the lump of grit inside the oyster, and that I was going to grow layers over him until I couldn’t see him any more, or even his outline. I could just see a beautiful pearl inside me, that was mine to own. He had effectively vanished away, out of sight and out of mind.
It took a while, but it really helped.
That’s the confusing part because when it was good it was great and there’s a created future and happiness., But when it was bad it was fighting / wanting to leave / feeling disposable / feeling not good enough. That’s what I have swirling around in my mind- the good with lots of promise, and then lurking in the background all the messed up stuff.
But you and he didn’t share the same values, ready.
You might have talked about lots of things, and liked the same movies, and read the same books, and laughed at the same jokes, but I think that you and he did not share the same values.
Shared values give you a helping hand to be courteous to each other, almost all the time. They give you a more peaceful relationship, and you can really trust each other. You both believe in the relationship’s future, and look forward to walking that walk with each other.
Instead, it looks like someone was trying to ‘fake it till he made it’, only he didn’t make it.
I know it’s hard, but stick to NC, and also be careful to keep that little voice that says, ‘go back! go back!’ well and truly under control. That little voice is NOT YOUR FRIEND.
@Ready to Listen,
Sounds like you knew all along something was ‘off’. Denial will keep us from admitting why we stay in certain relationships and with people who we know, deep down just are not right for us. But, we continue any way. Maybe because we’ll feel like failures or not ‘nice’ if we throw in the towel in what we perceive as being ‘too soon’, and we keep listening to ‘words’, despite our gut telling us… ‘Ehhh… Something isn’t right here.’
And… (this is me), I would never move for no man, unless it was to Hawaii. Lol. I’ve seen too many of my friends do that, and it never worked out well for them. I think us people pleasing women give way too much for these men without feeling truly good about it, AND having the commitment we truly want. Let them move. Let them fix up and sell their homes, and change their work schedules.. Then you won’t feel so bad when/if things don’t work out.
Do what’s right for you. Why switch your work week, to drive up and see him on Thursdays instead of Fridays? Did he, would he do that for you?
I love Nats posts mentioning ‘people pleasing.’ We tend to do this with men too much. Why disrupt your life, moving, fixing your house, your job, while studying (I give you credit, btw, and good for you), for someone that you knew something was off?
I think you liked the ‘idea’ of all of the perceived happiness with being in a committed relationship, living together, etc.. And who could blame you? we’ve all been there, I’m sure.
The guy I was dating for 8 months sent a pic of an $800,000 beautiful home asking me what I thought… Told me he loved everything about me, and because I didn’t call him back first the other night, I haven’t heard from him in two days, mind you… We had plans to spend time with each others family’s this holiday. Guess what? He’s done in my book. Am I disappointed? Yes. Angry? Yes. But am I happy I found out now then down the road? Hell yea. Does it show that I’m angry and disappointed? No. Because I’m done being upset over people who are not worthy of my energy.
Remember how Nat says… “People unfold”, people apparently have their own agendas, and fail to let us know about it, until we’re like… ‘Umm.. Holy sh!t, did that just happen?’
They’re also “blessings in disguise”, so, don’t feel too bad, for too long about it, and don’t feel bad about not feeling bad! I know I won’t! I’m going to enjoy my freedom, do the things I love without moving my schedule around for someone I know, deep down, I’m not absolutely mad about and vice/versa.
I Hope you’ll do the same.
@Demke
Thanks for reading and responding. And you’re right, I did know something was off. My worry now is why I went so far for him. I looked back at his life with his ex-wife and it was pretty. You know those picture perfect snapshots of their life – man did they take a lot of pictures… I wanted that with him because, in my mind, it felt like he was capable of it. He could do it with her, so why not with me who obviously would never treat him like she had.
When he broke it off, I immediately started to feel- I couldn’t even make it work with this f-ed guy who was at the bottom of his barrel. And I’d never be able to get him as a ready to date normal guy. And she left him and he left me so I really wasn’t better than her or good enough for him. How messed up is that?!
Now, I realize I have been comparing her to me, trying to be better. And I did this in part because of me and my own issues, and in part because he wasn’t over her, what she did, and deep down I knew that. I settled for getting the left over parts of a nice life from the pieces that were broken. This is where the work is. It’s working on me and my issues. Why did I find a man like this and try to fix him into the relationship I deserve? And I do deserve it.
And with you cutting contact with the 8-month guy, good for you. It sounds like you are applying these words. Keep it up because you need to for you. After this experience, I can say that keeping your self-esteem in tack is what will help you find who are are meant to be with. I don’t think we can have the relationship we deserve without it. Keep your boundaries because it makes you stronger and ready for a good thing.
Thank you for listening.
Yes! Almost immediately you were ‘at work’ with the relationship. No way, honey. Sorry to say, you were a ‘buffer’, someone to be there for him while he was trying to heal from his divorce. We are all flawed. It is a blessing that this happened. And even thought I have been through a few heartbreaks, I truly believe that these are lessons learned. It’s important not to feel bitterness. You will bring that along in the next relationship, that will most likely not work out because you will need to spend time alone. And there is nothing wrong with that.
True story: My cousin was with a married man, who abused her, used her… for 15 years. Yup. 15 years. She dated, here and there… and then she decided to visit adoption shelters for dogs. She’s an attractive, 35 year old. Never married. No kids. Low self-esteem, abused, etc. In the past year of visiting this shelter, doing what she enjoyed/loved doing, she met a 30 year old, (good looking), awesome guy, the director of a shelter, good job, great family, etc. Became friends, lovers.. living together after 4 months. He is great to her.. she is in-love, and happy as hell.
Hope this gives you all inspiration… when it’s your time, it’s your time. She said, “I just starting getting involved with what I loved the most, and taking time for me, and that’s when he showed up.” Believe ladies…
Demke
Soooo right. No woman should put herself financially at risk, risk being homeless for anyone. Even if you’re marrying the dude, you should have your own retirement, own separate savings, own pre-marriage assets. Things can go south no matter how hard one works at a rship and waaay too many women stick with abusers, EUs, cheaters because they gave up everything and are financially trapped.
Yes, Noquay,
Don’t put yourself out (too much) for any man. Because if it goes “tits up”, like Natalie would say, you don’t feel so crappy. Learning how to hold your own, will empower any woman, and not settle for anything less. The great man is just the icing on the cake.
I’m with you on this Noquay but so far have only come acroos two types of men in response to it. 1. Happy if I am working and paying for everything myself ie buying my own home as this takes the expectation that I might ever look to him to meet any financial needs off his shoulders (which is dodgy because I’m thinking about a last ditch effort to create a real family, complete with marriage and another child and surely I need time out from work to do this?) or 2. I don’t want to use the word “deadbeats” but I’m not sure how to describe the other type. Over 40 and not professionally qualified at anything and not owning property is about it (so in some sort of lowish paying job). This type is not on my level because I am educated and also have a solid profession behind me (even though I’m now retraining for shift wideways and upwards in a similar field) and I own my home. Where is type number 3 I wonder? Ie just a decent guy with a skilled job (I don’t care if he’s a qualified tradie, runs a successful business of some kind, or is uni educated but he must ONE of these three), financially secure emotionallay available ect. I hope there are actually some of type three out there because I’m getting closer and closer to being ready to date again by the month. I’m attempting my gazillionth time to stop smoking again in the next few days, and once I succeed at this I have only ONE final thing to do before I’m ready to put myself back out there. I do hope all the man drought stuff for women over 40 is not true as I’m 45!
Robin- walk like you’ve got 3 Chris Hemsworths walking behind you. And you’ll find you’re attracting a lot less assclowns. And eventually, a worthy one will show up. Stop entertaining for the sake of entertaining. We’ve all done it, because we’re ‘nice’, and…. What’s the ‘harm’. Do yourself a favor, don’t even waste your time on the ‘he seems ‘okay” ones… You want to be like… ‘Holy sh!t, this person is amazing!’ Spend your time doing things you love, heal… Take your time, there’s no fire. And someone worthy will show up. You keep ‘settling’, and you don’t have to, and it’s doing nothing for you. So stop. Just be happy having your freedom… And everything will work out.
I have been a reader of this blog since February this year. There were phases in my recovery experience when I thought I was over my pain. I would sigh and say, “Finally!!!!” And then, a week or two later, somehow I am in pain and jealousy again. I picture him with a new girlfriend, very happy, being the boyfriend he was never with me. Lately in the last week I overdid the imagination. I don’t know what I got to me and of course, Nat’s article was a blessing and right on time. It’s like she knew I needed it right now. The healing the pain is an intricate pattern. It is up and down. It’s circling and then closing the circle thinking, ‘Yay!! I am finally done.” All of sudden, from seemingly nowhere, it springs back at you. “Hey, if you didn’t do this, if you didn’t act stupid, if you didn’t say or that or acted slutty or limited your drinks on a Saturday night or said nice things or were quiet, maybe he would have appreciated you more. Maybe he would have seen what a nice wife you could make.” Oh my. After 9 months of breakup I am going through a rollercoaster. No one warned me that the healing might take step backs. I didn’t know that I could plunge from anew. I feel like I just broke up. I am not sure what trigerred this , but as I am going through the pain, I know that this is the last month last year we had been intimate together emotionally and physically. This is the month when he “helped” me to survive the abortion loss after pressuring me to get it. This is the month when I thought, “wow, we finally are so close because of this devastating experience and let’s build the life together.” This month last year was the first time I finally bonded to him and amazingly he said the same thing that he felt so close to me and because we went through the ordeal, he feels we are very close. I think, that he and I , both being EU at the time, finally opened up. We finally felt close and bonded. After 9-10 months of together, I had never felt so intimate and close to him because we both went through emotional hell. Rapidly after that he withdrew. After 3 weeks he broke up with me. How does one reconcile someone being so close and wanting to be out of your life? How does one heal after receiving such double messages? I have been doing a lot of work in these 9-10 months and feeling recovered , I all of sudden collapsed recently. I read the posts here that it’s normal. That up to 1-1,5 year it’s ok to recover.
It takes time. Believe me, everyone, the friends and newcomers I made on BR, that it takes time. One day you think, “yay!!I am over him.” And then, out of NOWHERE, you see these sweet memories, fond images of the past, his kisses and tenderness, all comes back and you are shocked.
However, being past this long, I do know this will go away. Just a reminder to everyone, it will go away. It takes time. Don’t be afraid when you feel like it’s back. It won’t be forever. It’s a healing process. You will get there.
Sofia – I am wondering???
I had an experience with a friend who I believe was pushed through an abortion I don’t believe she really wanted and ‘supported’ through it by the man – for about 1 month after he was an angel – the model man (unlike before) – then he dumped her like a sack of stone for no reason – basically I believe when he felt he was safe to.
It looked as though he did what he had to afterwards to get out of the relationship without feeling excess guilt for HIS actions (ie his actions were all about him – being an angel was not about love and care for my friend – though she at first read into them as such). The writing was on the wall for this relationship when the abortion was called in the first place.
My question is, was there really a true bond or was it a lie for HIS benefit and conscience? If there was a true bond – where is he now? It hasn’t helped you in the long run, has it? Who has it helped?
The favourable reminders of someone who has caused you nothing but extreme pain – will come naturally but also when you are not doing things for yourself that you need to do to make yourself live better. It can be natural and it can be a sign of denial about something.
So time to ask yourself Sofia – Am I really happy, secure, nuturing myself well or is there anything I can do right now to make my life and me feel better about who I am?
I have been reading your replies for a while Sofia and I KNOW you deserve nuturing, satisfying, stimulating and honest relationships – without pain. It is good to question what you are experiencing now.
Oona, thank you for your kind reply.
The story about your friend is like mine. Of course there was no true bond. There was no bond at all, you are right. It was for him to make himself feel better for what he did. It seemed like it was a bond at the time. I was so hurt and strangely he was the person from whom I was looking support. Now thinking of it, it seems like an abusive, codependent kind of clinging, but I didn’t know he faked it. He said he loved me and we would be together and he would always be there for me. Yes, he was an angel and a model man for that 1-1,5 month. He acted like a boyfriend should act in the first place! He visited me frequently, spent more time together, was caring and kind. It was such a drastic change.
He dumped me because of two reasons: he thought we were too different and he doesn’t see me as a partner and the second reason: I just can’t commit, he said. And of course all of this was not out of the blue. As you say, it was written on the wall even few months before the abortion when after blowing hot for initial 4-5 months, he turned lukewarm, and then cold. I knew it then and became increasingly insecure and clingy, which I thought back then pushed him away even more. After healing and grieving the “loss” I see everything now very clearly and that’s what amazes me how I can even miss and remember the nice times we had together. This person brought me so much pain. I am 37 and this is the most painful experience in my life. The entire relationship and everything I went through. It turned my life for so much better though. I turned to faith and my life now is the life with God. I have been rebuilding or rather building my new life. I realized how insecure and scared I was. There are many things about myself that I learned with the help of this blog and with my spiritual growth. I recognize the source of why I allowed such treatment and why I still have fond memories of someone who left (childhood issues). I have forgiven him and worked through a lot of issues in these 9-10 months. It was a LOT of work. I remember how he said, “People never change.” Wrong. People do change. But they need to be hit with something really so tragic and drastic that will overhaul their lives completely. And one has to be aware of oneself and one’s weaknesses and mistakes, forgive oneself and other, and work on building a new life. I have done a lot of hard but satisfying work. I don’t think I have ever been as happy as now at this point in my life even though I still have some pain to heal and mend.
Thank you for the reality check, Oona. You bring up a good point. If I have progressed so well and there were weeks or even a month when I finally sighed out “Relief! I am over him!”, why all of sudden the memories and denial of all the hurt and pain and lies. I need to think why I am not fully bringing focus back to me. Why I am still focusing on him. It’s not healthy and I see I have more work to be done. Partially I might contribute this to the anniversary memories of all the painful things that happened last year.
How did you friend cope with her two losses? Actually losing the guy was not a loss at all, like in my case. My faith and my church help me to heal through the pain of the abortion. I deeply regret that I agreed to it. There are no words to describe the regret I have over that decision. People who have had the experience will understand me. Did the guy that dump her ever contact her? Ever apologized for the pain? Did she recover and move on fairly quickly or did it take some time? My heart goes out to her. I know how traumatic and painful to go through this. Sometimes I think it would have been more honest and better if he dumped me at the news of my pregnancy. But no, he was a good guy. He wouldn’t do such a thing. He “helped” me and then dumped. This is so much worse because you are shocked with the double betrayal.
Thanks again, Oona. I will continue on bringing the focus back on me. This article is right what I needed now. I have been gradually and slowly and just got off the path briefly. I know I will get up and press forward strong again. I have always done it.
Yes Sofia, I imagine that the anniversary will bring back memories and is perfectly natural and that you will find a way to convert these memories into something truely positive for yourself.
Unfortunately or fortunately for my friend (I’m not sure which?) he was around for about a year following – same work place – and he was straight into another relationship in front of her within about a month of them splitting up – which was devastating for her but maybe? helped her at the same time bring up pain and anger/ realise he was absolutely not worth a hair on her head – earlier than I think she would have done under her own steam and this then resulted in a complete non contact situation, while still having to endure his ‘presence’ at times – corridors, doors, occasional gossip of others who didn’t know etc…
I haven’t seen her for a while, so do not know if he ever properly apologized to her for his behaviour but he was definately apologetic – briefly – when splitting up with her but I don’t think it was the same as a full understanding of what he had actually done to her and recompense for all the pain she had.
I may be wrong looking in from the outside? but I believe he actually understood what he actually had done which was why he wanted out and away from the relationship, as fast as he could – too strong emotions and feelings for him to deal with or wanted to deal with yet not strong enough feelings for him to be frightened into staying anymore – so at a guess and it is a guess – I don’t believe he would have had the guts/or cared for her enough, to go back to talk to her or to make any real amends, somehow, but in some ways that would be quite cruel of him and possibly be like leading her on/letting her think he was the good guy again and much, much worse for her? So again maybe its a good thing???
My friend became very quiet about it after non contact with him but very very close to her sister, and had a much less dubious romantic relationship after him (not perfect) but better/much more assertive(I remember being really impressed at her regularly asserting her needs at the time – unlike any other woman I knew) and understanding of her needs and I don’t know if this was an act of suppressing what had happened? while carrying on or her having dealt with it and moving on??
Yes the ‘good guy’ is the ‘bad guy’ when we allow them to undermine our own feelings of who we really are. The good guy is the one that doesn’t get us in emotional trouble in the first place.
I can’t directly relate to your exact experience myself but I can relate to undermining myself significantly due to believing the other was the ‘good guy’ therefore making me the bad guy in the relationship (guilty/ shamed) and I believe this was a learned coping mechanism from childhood to cope with devastating experiences from others that I had little actual control over? – if someone hurts me – I must have done something wrong! – in order to take control back if I change myself, then it will stop it happening and they will love me again….only I was changing the wrong bits for a long while – I changed the bit that said follow your instinct (read red + amber flags) and opted for a more controlled lets pretend it didn’t happen and suck in all that pain, let it fester and grow, exploding at a later more inopportune date.
Sofia it is good we have places to talk about our experiences and I hope that we find more and more positive ways for helping us come to terms and grow from our experiences. Don’t worry about straying off the path every now and then – its like a cloud coming and going – natural reminders we need to focus on ourselves again. And finally – you were innocent – you did not fully know what you know now and the simple test to prove this is – would you do the same again?
Oona,
I know exactly what you are saying, “believing the other was the ‘good guy’ therefore making me the bad guy in the relationship (guilty/ shamed) and I believe this was a learned coping mechanism from childhood to cope with devastating experiences from others that I had little actual control over? – if someone hurts me – I must have done something wrong!”
I reread this several times and it really hits home for me. I believe that’s what happened in my childhood. My parents were emotionally unavailable, depressed, alcoholics, divorced. No abuse, but just absent and I grew up on my own pretty much. A child can’t blame her/his parents because intrinsically a child knows it’s wrong to think bad of the parents and they should love them. So the wrong doings of the parents are internalized as self-blame, depression, insecurity, shame, and guilt. Because the child projects all the fear and confusion internally. Makes sense: where else would it go… I read a lot on this subject prior to the relationship with the ex. However, it is all really resurfaced only this year. Gradually, a bit by bit, I finally see what contributed to my relationship with this most recent ex and with few failed relationships with ACs, and the demise of my marriage, which was initiated by me ( a good marriage: but did I know that back then? No.). I am blessed to have a daughter from the marriage and a civil relationship with my ex-husband.
This year I have been healing and grieving all of the losses and mistakes. You are asking if I were in the same shoes now, would I do the same thing over again? Oh no! I would kick the ex to the curb and keep the baby. It is absolutely no doubt what I would have done had I known better. Had I believed in God and myself back then. I was so scared to survive on my own being a single mom already and having no family or reliable friend support (I made great friends just this year on whom I know I could rely if I needed help. God does provide when one is need, things work out).
But first of all, I would have broken up with him 3-4 months into our relationship because it felt very strange and wrong and his words and no actions showed it all. Red and amber code flags all over (which I recognize only this year) yet mixed with a confusing predictable, consistent behavior of a really “nice guy”…(of course now I would have not been confused a bit). I did threaten to break up but he blew so hot I was swept off my feet. He simply had not yet his full cake yet and didn’t want it to end on my terms. Everything had to be on his timing and his terms. After all the hot, passionate romance all over again for the next couple months, I invested too much to let it go (love Nat’s terminology). Even though I became more anxious and anxious and insecure and clingy, I would not let him go. He would not break up but would become more critical of me, judgmental, condescending and I got only sporadic hot crumbs once in a while to sustain me. The rest was lukewarm, stale remnant of the crumbs. He strung me along for probably couple months more and then the pregnancy. So he stuck around. Because he is a “good guy”. The rest you know the story.
Even though it was hard for your friend initially, I can’t even imagine, seeing him dating someone else after one month (!!!), I think it was a hard proof for her that this man is a complete AC or in denial about everything. The thing is though I see how it is easy for them. Her ex or mine never loved us. It was no problem switching instantly. And an abortion is an elimination of a “problem” for them. Unless people are religious. My ex was an atheist and laughed at God right into my face. I won’t go into those details…
Oona, I agree with you that good guys do not cause us emotional devastation. I can look back at my ex-husband’s example or one guy I was dating, who was good to me, but things didn’t work out for other reasons. I remember the feeling of security, love, respect, care and feeling so comfortable in your own skin. I remember it very well and miss the feeling. However, it’s important now to give all these feelings back to myself, which I had never done my entire life up until this year. Of course I didn’t accept the nice treatment and love from my ex-husband. It was a foreign treatment to me. I felt awkward because I didn’t love myself. I was used to unlove, chaos, insecure environment, pain, guilt, and shame, scarce affection, no empathy, no moral support, so therefore I was looking for and was attracted to those kinds of relationships because it felt right!
I am so grateful to Nat and the BR community. I don’t know how I would heal and move on without so much support and honest and sometimes tough love that is so needed. I have learned so much, and yes, while I have the bumps on the road here and there, I know where to go. First of all I have my faith and church. I have couple close friends I can completely rely on and I have a great community here. Also knowing the truth now and not being confused about “why, how, etc” helps me to build my new life. Thank you, Oona, for your warm words and sharing your wisdom.
Ladies – I booked The People Pleasing Diet Course, what a great start of 2015!
This article is nothing but the truth! The reality is once you start to get real with yourself and your contribution to the disasterous relationships it does get better and you began to heal.
I remember after getting rid the EUM who I had my epiphany, I went on to meet a couple more EUM. They weren’t as bad as, but they were similiar in nature. This is when it really hit me. I am repeating the same pattern but with different men. I need to step back and realize that I deserve better and need to pay more attention to the red flags that I keep missing.
Once I realized that although I wanted and deserved better relationships, I was not taking the time assess if these men were worthy of my heart and soul. I needed to understand why I giving myself to people who clearly didn’t earn the right to be in my space and had I gotten to know these men first before I got intimate, I would be left feeling used.
When I decided to stop dating and work on me, then and only then did I realize that I determined my worth and that none of these men couldn’t get a whiff of me today! I am so much more aware of my thoughts and have become more intuitive about people behaviors that I won’t settle for any less. When I “grew up”, I started making better choices in who I chose to be around and how I deserved to be treated. Life only got better! Good Luck to you all on your journey to peace and happiness.
Stephanie – Your post is so well written. Thank you for sharing it with us here. I agree with you 100%! I agree with you that as “we grew up”, we started making better choices, and life did get better.
Now when I meet a guy and he starts showing his true colors, what I think is: “wow, this guy sure is getting on my nerves”; whereas before, I would have twisted myself into a pretzel trying to figure out what was wrong with *me* that he would act this way. After I grew up, I knew what I wanted, and so as soon as a guy acts up, he gets on my nerves, and I don’t enable his behavior, rather I gladly drop him, Next! I has done wonders for my self-esteem.
Haha, only the turkey on the plate… Thanks for my first laugh of the day.
I’m applying this theme of distancing myself/ my emotions, from a Roofing contractor who did shoddy work and damaged 2 ceilings. He tried to verbally abuse me on phone and enail, both of which I didn’t reply and enter a Lil – level argument. Instead, I did research of my options, and have filed a case with him with Washington State, and am getting documentation to him so that he will have to repair damage done, and redo roof if it is not to code. I was sure his company is licensed and bonded.
So, point is, that like an AssClown boyfriend, these men are also AssClowns in business and they are more than ready to try to get – over on customers and sometimes, women in particular. (like it’s the stone age and I don’t know the difference from Metal or plastic flashing).
Instead of me having days or weeks of stress and bad mood – which I had with the X HAREM Master… I am focusing on the other aspects of my current life and reminding myself of all the positives!
When I was heartbroken over the sexy, handsome, abusive player that I adored and put on pedestal, it took time, but I focused on ME. I went to gym every morning before work and 30 minutes on treadmill cleared my head and allowed me to function and keep my job while I was overcoming devastation. Time passed, and NOW I am completely over the guy, and Will never again be treated badly in ANY relationship- including business! Thanks Nat! Thanks all BR bloggers, and happy holidays! From Me, formerly Angelface.
LilDebby,
Assclowns (in all contexts and degrees) are so because they can get away with it for however long the enabler lets them. It’s the vulnerability scent these assclowns are very familiar with and prey on so a conscious backbone is definitely needed when sharing a path with these people. From my experience it is now a matter of applying strategies on assclown types with focus away from them and placed back on one’s own self, things that you are doing right now which is grand so yay for you. Smiles.
LilDebby, take it away!
[drumroll]
Ladies, I just read Reversal ‘ s comment.
Remember this: The First woman a man dates/has a sexual relationship with after his divorce, is A DIVORCE CLOWN, and she is discarded more than 90 percent of the time!!! Be careful with yourselves if in this situation!!
(Divorce Clown: A person who cheers up, entertains, restores happiness and ego to a newly divorced person. Generally discarded because, of course, they are not yet ready for commitment, haven’t dated around, and have not faced or repaired reasons they divorced).
This is brilliant LilDebby!
Little,
Have you fine counseling?
I think you will stop when you want to move forward with your life. This guy is easy,as you know it will go nowhere .
Maybe, it’s time to break the patterns, as you’re the one Who is keeping you in this EU pattern.
Little,
Don’t give up on men, as this is about YOU!
Isn’t it time to deal with your intimacy issues!
Miss Natalie,
Love this post. I’m reading it from the perspective of dealing with difficulties due to a selfish friend (an old pattern that goes back 17 years, as we’ve been friends since we were both 20). It’s helpful, as you point out, to always look at our own role and how we enable/try to rescue, etc. I’ve been feeling like the friend equivalent of a “booty call” for some time now, as she only tells me she’s in town last minute (we’re talking the day of) and wants to make plans. She also cancels plans last minute and when we do meet up, she can be HOURS late and without an apology (WTH???) Now, I’m pretty easygoing, and I’m all for last minute plans if they work out. But as a constant state of planning, and especially when she gets sullen when I can’t drop everything and attend to the Queen, it’s not viable. I have already set some boundaries with her, and don’t see her much these days (as she lives out of town). However, I still do love her and want to be friends with her, albeit without getting my ass kicked emotionally. Ugh.
Incidentally Miss Nat, I searched “toxic friends” on YouTube for a refresher course on signs/ways of coping with them, and I found your interview on the Chrissy B. show from 2 years ago. I said to myself about you: “I just can’t get away from this woman!!!” LOL. 😉
But as a constant state of planning, and especially when she gets sullen when I can’t drop everything and attend to the Queen, it’s not viable. I have already set some boundaries with her, and don’t see her much these days (as she lives out of town). However, I still do love her and want to be friends with her,
Erm – why, exactly?
I mean, she must be the world’s most amazing and entertaining conversationalist, and you must always come away from seeing her feeling really happy, uplifted, supported, affirmed and ready to take on the world.
Or do you come away feeling drained, exhausted, pissed off, or just feeling like you’ve wasted an evening?
This article generally goes back to the concept that you can’t change anyone else but you can change yourself. I was always skipping red flags my whole life and falling in love with the idea of who they could be “if they only committed, if I only gave them more time, if they had a change of heart” . I realize now I was never in love with who I was with, I was in love with the fantasy partner. Always look at actions and not words because actions always show the truth. It’s a dangerous habit that many of us women pay too much credit to talk to help build up our fantasy version of wrong partners. My ex used to future fake about is living together and moving away together and as soon as the reality would present itself as in me bringing up specific dates two years later, he was clearly running away from the concrete conversations about our future that had any solid commitments or promised. I finally realized after two years I was sick of waiting for something that would probably never happen and sick of settling for the what could be relationship. As more of my girlfriends were meeting significant others and making bigger steps like living together, getting engaged, and spending holidays with their families together I grew angry and so entirely resentful I didn’t recognize myself because I am usually a very happy person, I finally walked away forever and I feel so empowered and excited to open myself up to the one and the new me who wont settle for less from the start. I will make sure actions show a future and that whomever I meet puts me first and not last where I have to get to be a priority. This is not love. Love shouldn’t take away your happiness. Until the one does come along I am happy just focusing on me and what I do have (supportive family and friends) and on how I am not wasting my life away on a deadend lie of a relationship.
Correction to above “have to beg* to be a priority”
I have a “maybe sorta kinda” sitch brewing here with the “still living at home with his elderly mumma’s boy” I dated a few years back. He wants to be “friends” now. Don’t all howl me down yet. I’m not keen on “friends” and keeping him at bay. First step? Nope, he is NOT getting my mobile phone number (as this way I avoid the dodgy text messages). Second step? No I did not accept his fakebook “friend” request. More to this than I have time to explain atm but will check back in due course.
You’re all powering here btw. Great to see. Meanwhile, I’m plodding along but managing to pull the marks, just, I need to get into my next course – I MUST get high grades consistently or my change of career plan will sink. I never really struggled with this in the past but I do now. Hence no real social life yet here for moi as working harder than ever. Such is life. Things could be a lot worse. T 🙂
just, I need to get into my next course – I MUST get high grades consistently or my change of career plan will sink.
Which is why you DO NOT have time for a whachamacallit ambivalent timewasting phoney ‘friend’ like this person.
How about some real friends, eg. people who you haven’t dated in the past?
Teach
I am proud of you, keep it up!
I have a simple philosophy. Shape up or ship out, face the consequences with my boundaries enforced.
Example 1. I have a female friend who is always meaning to get in touch. She is a widow who is looking for a companion 18 months after being widowed and was married for 38 years since age 22. I think she is on the rebound and feel that she insults her late husband who by her own admission was a remarkable man. Based on the fact she never gets in touch when she says she will I am not making any more effort.
Example 2. A male friend I have known for 22 years borrowed some money to get him through a hard patch. This was done with a proper agreement but afterwards I found out he had other creditors as well as me. He stopped paying after a bit citing reduced income….. yada yada. I found out he was lying about various things but he always had an excuse. He didn’t heed my warning that I would pursue him for the debt, claiming his daughter signed for then opened recent correspondence addressed to him about the loan. As if. He promised me money by the end of Oct but it didn’t happen. Basically he was taking the piss, so I hired a debt collection agency and slapped him with a statutory demand served to his face at his home which gave him the shits. Now he is answerable to the debt collection agency and cannot weasel out. Once the money is re-paid he will be told to go swivel in no uncertain terms though I have found out he is so deluded, he likely believes he has done nothing wrong and this problem for him is all my fault.
I don’t trust men and have no desire to get sucked into relationship crack so from each experience in life I learn and move on. People can mask who they are for years and fool others like my ex male friend. These people often are shams living a complete lie but actually believe the lies they spin because they have such low self esteem they big themselves into being a better person. They have to do that because no-one would like them for the shits they really are. My ex male friend has lost a great friend in me and I had no problems doing what I did to recover my money as I will not be taken for a fool to be manipulated and lied to. I apply the same rules to female friends. After all only you can let you down!
He didn’t heed my warning that I would pursue him for the debt, claiming his daughter signed for then opened recent correspondence addressed to him about the loan.
He also claimed she destroyed this mail to protect him so he never got it! What an @rse.
Used,
Honestly , I think if no energy were put him into him, no one would care.
You know who you are. There all that is important .
Hello,
I’m a regular on the site, and have been for the last couple years. I’m a 40 year old guy who keeps recycling disappointment since leaving a relationship 2 years ago. I have not been as resilient as I though I would be, and spent much of the time watching my ex move on quickly, into marriage with the guy after me. I still feel horrible about ending it and still see the same issues in me that led to me ending that relationship, and every budding one I’ve been in since. I can’t seem to feel comfortable enough with anyone to let my guard down and stay a while. I’ve had many chances since that relationship ended, and I’ve ended them all as a matter of being compatible, but that’s never going to bring me the joy I want. Seeing my exes wedding photos (thanks Facebook) today just reminds me of what I have let go, and I have nothing to build myself up with. I just ended another relationship today and put myself further away from the love I seek, but I tell myself this (other) person wasn’t going to become what I want her to be either. I want to change my ways, and my thinking about my ex, but I keep coming to wallow in disappointment. I don’t have a lot of support to talk this out in my life, and wish i could talk it out with a few of you.
Deepend,
Have you sought therapy to address your issues with intimacy?
Why do problems with trust?
@allison,
I think I know why i have issues with trust/intimacy. It comes from my relationships with my mom and the mother of my children. Both of them are brick walls, meaning i talk to them and they don’t listen or acknowledge my concerns about anything. All i got back was grief whenever I tried to reason with either of them, so I dread talking about my feelings with those closest to me. Instead of trying to reason I just learned to throw bombs at them (breakups /ultimatums) so I can be heard, which is what did with the girl I’ve been seeing. I feel safer when I end things than live with the risk that something might not work out. I realize that if I want a relationship that builds me up rather than tear me down I’m going to have to do something different. What I’ve been doing the last few years hasn’t brought me the results I’m looking for. So i decided to do something different for me and talk with the lady I’ve been seeing, rather than throw bombs. She’s a quality lady who treats me with respect, but has a busy life and maybe not as much time as I’d like there to be. Now that I’ve talked to her i know where her heart is, I’m going to keep trying with her…
It seems the question you are asking is: how can I go from being emotionally unavailable, to being emotionally available?
Natalie on a weekly basis addresses the frustrations of her readers caught in emotionally unavailable situations (“relationships”). We learn we can not change, control or love someone into being emotionally available. Face the facts, pull up our stakes, move on, cope, heal and address one’s own emotional issues she tells us, then you may be ready for a healthy relationship based on trust and respect.
Step one: understand, examine the dynamics of your childhood. Most people here suffered in childhood which has kept them stuck in the relationships they seek. What they missed from parents, they seek in validation from a romantic partner.
Step two: Find meaning in your life (occupation, friends, family, work, hobbies, volunteerism, religion, etc.) because no
meaning is derived from the attention, approval of another, it is all on how you chose to live your life. So live with meaning. If a person comes into your life and there is love
that’s a bonus, but not the meaning of your life. Having a meaningful life will bring you self esteem. A great education, a great job, financial success, great holidays are meaningless. Find meaning which will bring happiness.
When you resolve your childhood issues (a lifelong process), find a meaningful life to live, feel good about your life, others will notice, but you will notice it in yourself. When you feel content with the meaning of your life, then perhaps you will become emotionally secure and therefore, available for a love relationship. Take your focus off them, bring it back to you. Live a life with purpose, the rest will fall into place, I hope.
Deepend,
Why did you end it with the lady that just got married? It seems to be that you had the same problem with her as you did with the last one! Alison is right, until you deal with your problems with intimacy than nothing will ever change. You are looking for happiness from someone else instead of from yourself.
Deepend – I just called and left a message to set up an appt with a counselor. I feel stuck right now and need to move forward. Maybe finding a counselor would be good for you too.
Deepend, maybe what you are looking for can’t be found in a romantic relationship. Until you figure it out, why not take a break from dating and do what this post suggests: take the focus off them and bring it back to you. And please, please don’t start/end anything new! It’s possible that those women you sent packing went off thinking “What is wrong with me?” Testing your relationship readiness on random people doesn’t help you find love; it just spreads the pain around.
Deepend, hello. The easiest part is getting into a relationship (the euphoria), the hardest bit is to sustain them (work, maturity…and all the rest), and the hardest of all is the letting it go (grief, regrets and lessons learnt). I am just wondering which lessons have you learned and how would you would go about it in the future. You have already made a huge step forward coming to Natalie’s posts. Take care.
Hey @Allison,
I went through a lot of therapy leading up to the decision to end that relationship. I thought I would eventually get over seeing my closest relationship in the world moving on with someone else. I was wrong, and doubt my decisions with women evening it seemed right at the time (as in did I make the right decision?). Maybe I could have been more patient, or accepting is what I recycle. I try to be positive (life isn’t complete shit), but the dating process makes me feel like shit when I don’t believe i am good enough for what I’m looking for. I’ve changed my goals to accommodate my age, greying hair, and expanding waistline. At this rate, I should be single till I’m dead!
Deepend, I hope you won’t mind if I ask a few questions that will clarify the situation a bit more for me?
How long were you and the original lady together as a couple?
but I tell myself this (other) person wasn’t going to become what I want her to be either.
Is there a remote chance that the lady in question has left you because you were trying to shape her into someone that she wasn’t?
That’s a good question Ethtrelda. I was with the first lady for 3.5 years. I’m not sure which woman you are referring to “Is there a remote chance that the lady in question has left you because you were trying to shape her into someone that she wasn’t?” if you mean the first lady, she was actually the one who shaped herself into what she thought I wanted her to be, which I thought was insincere/dishonest. Is that what you meant?
No, I was just wondering if you two had been together ‘too long’ without any future plans or commitment. That’s why I asked. Sometimes women get sick of waiting, especially if there’s babies involved.
Hey @simple_pleasures,
You’re right, my question here is how to put all that I’ve learned here onto action, and making myself an emotionally available man? I actually do have a lot of purpose, a career i love (most of the time) and intellectual pursuits. I’ve been very busy pursuing them these last couple years. I’ve also set out to be happy on my own, not focused on getting into another relationship, but my ex jumping into something right away put a lot of pressure on me to find someone quickly (which I didn’t give into). It added to the misery i felt. Slowly but surely I started pulling myself together, and started dating with the intention to find the right fit for me, but haven’t found it yet. When I started dating I found interesting prospects, but when it didn’t look like it was going to work out I was quick to end it and not get roped into something that wasn’t right for me. I thought that was me learning to make better choices, but now I see that I have ended everything I started. My ex that just got married was much younger than me and wanted babies, but I didn’t. There was lots that I liked about her, and lots I accepted, and if given the chance to do it over again i would have done it differently. It ended terribly. Problem is now it’s just safer to not give people a chance when things aren’t 100%, but that’s never going to turn into the joy I once had. Usually I’m a chatty guy, but I have no wise counsellors to open up to in person, hence the post here.
My ex that just got married was much younger than me and wanted babies, but I didn’t.
There’s the answer, right there, deepend. You and she did not share the same values.
She has found someone who shared this core value with her – and it’s just about THE most core value there is – and she’s gone to pursue it. She has a far better chance of happiness with a man who shares her values.
You also have a far better chance of happiness with a woman who shares your values, including not wanting children, but you may have to look for a woman who already has children, or who is older and can’t have them/doesn’t want them because of her age.
This is hard for a lot of men, because they usually want a younger woman, but you have to be realistic about this – most younger women want at least the option of having children with the man they love.
So broaden your options, and look for shared values. This is critical. But first of all, you have to stop obsessing about this lady, because that ship has sailed.
@ehtrelda,
That’s ship has totally sailed, looong time ago, but it blew up my harbour as she sat sail (long story there). I’ve been hoping she’d sink in the process, but it was just me who sunk. All in all, it’s been a sore spot I’ve been trying to heal since then, and it’s getting better.
I’ve been hoping she’d sink in the process, but it was just me who sunk.
Honest admission. Well done.
It’s always interesting, how we protest that we love someone so much that we would do anything to make them happy.
But then when it turns out that the one thing that would make them happy is someone else, we get really mad and hurt and angry.
So I now use this as the acid test of whether I feel ‘romantic love’ or ‘real love’ for a person.
If I can really wish them happiness with another person, and rejoice in their being really happy now, then it’s ‘real love’.
If I want them to fry in the downtown business section of hell for leaving me, it’s ‘romantic love’.
Ain’t love grand … No, seriously, it’s a good way of measuring the amount of selfishness you bring to a relationship, and also the amount of neediness and dependency that existed in that relationship on your side of the balance sheet.
The other thing that occurred to me after I just posted is this:
You may well be simply looking for a replacement, brand new, carbon copy of the woman you were in love with (the one who has left you and gone away with someone else to have babies).
I did this, post-engagement break-up: I simply ‘tried on’ man after man, hoping to find an exact replacement of what I had lost.
I forgot that my earlier relationship’s good side had taken three and a half years to build, and I also ignored the bad side’s existence completely. All that mattered was that I plugged the hole, so to speak.
So of course I was choosing the wrong men, for the wrong reasons – and as soon as it didn’t ‘feel right’, I broke off with them.
I was a very long way from treating other people with respect and sincerity, and as individuals. I just wanted the pain to stop.
So perhaps if you are doing the same thing, you need to take a BIG BREAK from dating at all, till you get your head straight, your priorities sorted out, and your values clarified.
Hi @annabelle,
What have I learned? A shit ton actually, starting with my desire for validation. Not feeding this beast (too much).
I’ve learned I was already emotionally unavailable in that relationship, and that I have been protecting myself since before it ended. I decided to make this girl my happiness before i was ready for a commitment. It wreaked havoc with the relationship, so if I ever find myself genuinely interested in a women again I will not dwell on the past, but the present. I will also treat her with love and respect from the beginning, and accept those things about her I cannot change, providing they don’t diminish my well being.
I’ve also learned that perspective is everything. My perspective of my future prospects isn’t rosy, which is largely why keep ruminating on what I gave up (a relationship i didn’t appreciate at the time, and feel i will be lucky to have one like it again. I want to change my perspective, which is why I’m here and opening up to talk about it where I can.
Simple,
Wise words!!
deepend, first, you seem very sad, negative; negative ideas often go along with feelings of depression and anxiety. The idea that you are fundamentally flawed or dont deserve love, or will always ‘wallow’ in disappointment. So that is one thing the therapy should focus on and will help you with, just making you feel more happy about life in general.
In addition, you said she ‘wasn’t going to become what I want her to be either’. THIS is the problem right here – EU men think that women should be perfect, that someone out there is a woman that will fill that need you have for love, and will also absolve you of consequences and responsibility because she will be so perfect she will ask for nothing. NO ONE is going to become what you want them to – they are who they are. No one will fill you up, you have to do it for yourself. You are setting yourself up for disappointment by not giving, not experiencing intimacy but just waiting for a woman that will never come. By searching for this woman, you are setting yourself up for failure, you are EU in that definition because you think you want love but love scares you. [like it seems to scare many of us].
Love happens because two people get along well enough and enjoy each other well enough to commit to being there for each other despite the flaws [and here i dont mean flaws which are deal breakers, but the everyday flaws people have, the challenges that we face in life]. Love doesnt happen because you found someone perfect. Even people that treat you well, with affection etc., have flaws, make mistakes, lose their temper and also will call you out on whatever bad behavior you come up with. You have to forgive them, have humor, compromise.
Love is not a search for perfection. Love is a commitment to caring for others. You talk about the love you ‘seek’ in this woman that will be what you want her to be — love is a relationship. Its not sitting in some person like quantity you can tap. Its not something you seek, its something you give, something to have with someone, together with someone. With the EU person I am trying to disentangle from, it was clear that I was not perfect for him precisely because HE had treated me badly and I had called him out on it – by failing to be the perfect person that would either put him on the path to great behavior, or patiently put up with his silliness, I had fallen off the pedestal. This is such total silliness on his part and there is nothing that I care to do about it – I am just myself, I am not someone’s ‘love they seek’ or someone’s ‘be who they want’.
Thanks Noquay. I admire you & what you’ve achieved a lot.
Also, whilst I’m here I’d like to apologise to a few folk that replied to a post or two of mine a few months back. I don’t recall everyone that posted exactly, but Noquay, Rosie & Oona, I think the three of you were names I recall. I just want folks to plase know that I did see & read all your kind words & that I appreciated them greatly. I just didn’t have the energy to reply at the time, that’s all. I’m still battling chronic debilitating illness, except now I’m having to force myself to perform at least in some limited ways on top of this which is a tall order for me (study, only very part time, but very taxing as my memory has deteriorated, plus physically far from 100%) & caring for the newest addition to my world I got 4 mths or so ago, my beautiful 20 mth english staffy).
I can’t seem to cope with too much at once yet but I rescuing my wonderful dog from previous neglectful owners & caring for him is helping me to learn to take care of myself again too (he’s needed substantial medical & behavioural rehab). I love my dog so much. He’s teaching me how to relax & not be so serious all the time. I’m going to train him to be a certified therapy dog. This is my little way of focusing on me like this thread suggests.
On top of this some new (but also old) learning exp’s re my dysfunctional family have also been very draining
Hence, all in all, please know I extend sincere aplogies I did not respond folks’ posts sooner. I think of you all & the BR community often. You’re all in thoughts. Xx
Natalie, Thank you so much. I went through a terrible breakup this summer at the end of a very stressful year I spent studying a master’s at a very intellectually demanding university. To cut a long story short, I was near a nervous breakdown this summer with the stress from my degree, uninterested supervisors and the assclown in my life. I can’t thank you enough for how much your posts have changed my life. I read your posts regularly, and they have been like therapy – you are an amazingly insightful woman and it made me feel so much better to realise I was not alone.
I cannot recognise my last year self anymore. You have made me realise how much I had to work on my self-esteem and how I had to take charge of my life. I have gone from crying nearly every day about him to a general level of acceptance regarding everything in my life. It is crazy how I missed all the signs. I wish I could have chanced upon your website early: it would have saved me a lot of heartache and stress, but the best lessons aren’t easy to learn and in a strange way I am extremely glad I went through everything with the AC because I feel so much wiser and peaceful. Gone are the days I’d want him back, spend hours wondering why he left me right before my finals, etc; instead, now I see him clearly for what he was.
The articles that resonated with me and helped me reach this level of peace and understanding include the one on this page, the ones on self-esteem, the ‘I can’t believe they don’t want me’ syndrome (guilty of this for sure), and the ‘stop overestimating them’. A big hug to you from my side xx
I come to this website on some of my darkest nights like tonight. I suffer from codependency and it’s so difficult for me to cope with the situations I get myself into sometimes. But many times this website helps me hen there is no one to talk to about how i feel.
Hi,I’ve been reading for a couple years,and this site has helped me so much! The stuff I was putting up with: disappearing acts, being managed by text…no commitment…I am so grateful I found this site. I read Nat’s posts and the comments and get so much truth that has made my life so much better. I am healing, too, slowly.
It’s getting harder, now, b/c the men are nicer than what I was putting up with before I found this site. Any input would really be appreciated.
I am on an on-line dating site and the men are better, but it still feels emotionally unavailable. First, I realize, now, that long distance relationships don’t work (probably). I live in a foreign country, so I need to think about what I really want for my future, and my daughter’s. I don’t need to waste time and have needless draining, gut-wrenching heartache again-at least not for no reason.
I was talking to one guy for about a year and invited him to come visit. I think that was a bad idea. We skyped twice and then he just dropped back to little emails and was calling us penpals. I realized last night, that he is still planning to come, so I just told him that wouldn’t be a good idea, after all. I feel better, already.
Another guy seemed really nice, but I don’t like being around him.
He is from the next country over. We have talked on skype. It was exhausting. I felt like I was on an audition. I wasn’t allowed to talk about my religion, much, even though he said he is the same religion. He reduced a doctrine, dear to my heart, to an acronym and said, “oh, not such and such!”. So, I felt I couldn’t be myself. I felt cut off. He had to think all night about the fact that 30 years ago I was in this group he doesn’t like, which was very healthy and a wonderful experience for me. I asked him when he goes back to his home country. He didn’t answer. I mentioned that we are planning on moving, which would more than halve the distance between us and he didn’t comment, but he keeps sending me flowery messages.
I think he is looking for an ego stroke. This feels bad. Yet, he seems like a nice guy. I guess I’m making some progress. The last 2 guys were so bad for me, it was obvious.
Thanks for reading this. Thank you, Nat.
Lori 🙂
Hi Lori,
I think you might need to look for other ways to meet guys. I am a single mom too, but I had had so much negative experience with online dating several times, that I will not try it anymore. So I don’t know what to recommend. Meetup groups? Church? Some social activities besides bars and clubs. I haven’t dated or looked for dating since my breakup 10 months ago, so I have no idea what to do when I feel like I am ready. No online for me. A lot of shady and EU folks. When online, why don’t you communicate with guys who live in the same city as you? Or very close within an hour drive, if your city is small? Seems like you pick guys who are physically unavailable. Long-distance are full of romance and fantasy ( I had one for 7 years on and off – friendship/mixed romance). The guy disappeared on me after building a very close relationship about a year ago. My best advice: just stay away from online dating and get out into the real world. The second part of my advice I need to heed myself. Best wishes!
Just to add, this is the “old” Sofia, the one who has been posting for several months since February this year.
I was under the impression that this second guy was divorced, but had been sensing something was wrong with him. With further questioning, I just discovered that he is still married, in fact. Arrgghh, I am blocking him from all contact avenues right now. I decided I don’t owe him any explanation, since he’s a liar, anyway and will just try to manipulate me. It was amazing to watch the unfolding. He future faked and tried to put the focus on me.
I feel like a slow learner, and I have been. But, I made better decisions this time around. Thank you, Nat. Thank you, everyone. I’m alone, but I’m not miserable, lost in some horrible, abusive, controlling relationship, losing myself. I didn’t give my power away and had my own back this time.
This is kinda new.
It feels so much better. I wish you all peace tonight.
Deepend,
The thought that comes to mind as I read your posts is that therapy is a great tool for learning about ourselves and facilitating positive change. It’s good that you’re aware of your issues and even that you have found this community but BR is not therapy and it should not be used as a substitute for this. Many here have been used as “armchair therapists” by people IRL who were emotionally unavailable and who had no intention of wanting a lifelong committed relationship with us but who led us on to believe otherwise as a way of continuing to access “armchar therapy” with a side benefit of sex. I hate to think of anyone using people here in a similar way (minus the sex and promises of future faking BS). You sound as if what has happened has caused some deep thinking so by all means share here but also, I’d suggest you organsise some counselling for yourself with a suitably qualified therapist. Just my thoughts.
Be well. T
Thanks Teachable,
I’m a thinker, more than I want to be. Looking back at my original post some of the wording I used sounded bleak, and truthfully relationships have caused me a lot of anguish. That’s why I feel safer single or dating, but not in a relationship. I’ve tried therapy, but therapists don’t really want to get into it at more than a superficial level. So I’ve been learning from BR, but I learn /process best when I’m talking it out with somwone whose not critical or judgemental.
Hi, Sofia 🙂 I really needed to hear that. Thank you so much.
Your advice is really good. I so appreciate it. I have been kind of living in a fantasy world. To change, I will have to really look at my life and the direction I am headed, and make some changes that I have been putting off for awhile. I live in an area where it’s not really my culture, or even first language. That’s really hard. It’s time to make some hard decisions.
I have been so scared of being more lonely..but being rejected is what caused so much of my loneliness and heartache. I believe I am going to stop beating my head against this wall and stop this online dating, as well. I don’t know where to go with this, either, but I know I don’t want to set myself up to fail, anymore.
I’m sorry that relationship worked out the way it did for you. I know it isn’t easy. I will heed your advice and try to get out into the real world, too. There are opportunities. I miss so many of them. I guess it’s fear. Time to face that and just make some friends. Time to heal and look at my issues, too. I hope it works out really well for you 🙂
Hugs,
Lori
Some of these comments do not sound like an expression of ones values, but rather a confirmation of ones prejudices and self-hatred.
“Sociologists and psychologists hold that some of the emotionality in prejudice stems from subconscious attitudes that cause a person to ward off feelings of inadequacy by projecting them onto a target group. By using certain people as scapegoats—those without power who are unfairly blamed—anxiety and uncertainty are reduced by attributing complex problems to a simple cause: “Those people are the source of all my problems.” Social research across the globe has shown that prejudice is fundamentally related to low self?esteem. By hating certain groups …, people are able to enhance their sense of self?worth and importance.”
— Houghton, Mifflin, Harcourt
low self-esteem
sense of self-worth
Question: the man I was dating became a widower about two years ago. He has displayed all the typical characteristics of Mr Unavailable (not the Assclowns type). We are both in our late fourties. My gut feeling tells me that he has always been the unavailable type. But is this true? Has he changed dramatically after the death of his wife? I have cut off contact with him due to his inability to show up emotionally in our relationship. Any thoughts? What should I do if he contacts me again? Thank you. Noel