I’ve been speaking with a number of readers recently who have found that in spite of knowing that the person whom they are involved with was no good for them or a relationship, struggle to let it go. A lot of this has to do with something I wrote about recently, normalising bad behaviour.
“You have adapted to the whims and idiosyncrasies each time you have been with these men, so what was abnormal has become totally normal.
This is how you end up becoming distanced from yourself and forgetting who you are, what you need, what you want etc.”
But there’s another offshoot of all this that causes you to feel stuck and helpless, and it’s isolation.
Because you have strayed so far from everything that you thought you believed about yourself and professed to want and need, and because you have internalised a lot of what has been taking place or being said, you have ended up becoming isolated.
When you have no boundaries and keep trying to accommodate the other person in the hope that you will get the relationship you want and the validation that you seek, you end up losing yourself en route.
Often we don’t spend as much time with our families and friends because we fear what they will think of our continued involvement with the person. In some cases though, the person who we are involved with has eroded so far into our sense of self, saying things that have taken root, that we also convince ourselves that if we keep friends and family in our life that he (or she) hasn’t approved of, it will create further problems for us. All it takes is repeated comments or arguments about you talking to/spending time with certain people and you start to distance yourself because you think it will make them happy.
We misguidedly believe that it’s because they love us so much and so passionately that they really want to spend as much time as possible with us and not have us be ‘lost’ to someone else. Or…we believe that they will be able to love us if we do what they want because we believe that we are currently flawed.
We then attempt to please them throwing all of our attention and ‘love’ in their direction only to find that we are damned if we do and damned if we don’t, and often left alone, anyway.
Obviously when we make this one man our focal point, everything else suffers so this only amplifies our dislike of ourselves and also our dependence on them because we start to believe that everything will slot into place and be ‘right’ when you get the relationship you want with them.
So we keep analysing and looking for reasons to blame ourselves for their behaviour or the fact that the relationship is not how we want it to be, and whatever we can seize upon, we’ll use that as another reason to stay invested and morph and adapt further to accommodate the other person.
There are two types of isolation going on here:
The things you assume and seize upon as reasons to propel your fears and distance yourself from ‘you’ so that you can hopefully get the relationship and validation you seek, and,
The all pervasive comments and behaviour by the other party that often amount to bullying and control that ended up stripping away everything you know about yourself – these people can end up stripping away your friends, family, work, your sense of self so that even when you recognise how dangerous and wrong they are, you haven’t got anything familiar left to hold onto, so you keep holding onto them.
I spoke with someone recently whose guy can’t even cope with her being affectionate with her child. Someone else had a girlfriend who felt ‘hurt’ when he spent time with his friends. Many readers have been back and forth with their guy so many times that they feel that they can’t be around their family and friends so much because they don’t think they can be honest about their continued involvement with their assclown or Mr Unavailable.
All of this compounds the feeling of isolation…and dependency.
Because you have tried to redefine yourself based on what you think they want and need you to be in order for you to be ‘right’ for them or because they keep telling you about how if only you weren’t being or doing X,Y, and Z, you could be the perfect person for them, this ‘new’ you needs this other person because you and they have stripped away everything that is familiar to you.
The unfortunate thing about this is that these men, like Mr Unavailables and assclowns, is that they often end up leaving you alone so you basically end up up sh*t’s creek without a paddle because you no longer have anything familiar left to hold onto.
You then think that the only way you can find your way back, is to use them as a life jacket to hold onto, to effectively bring you back to shore. They on one hand represent why you’re so miserable but because everything has been sidelined and abandoned to be with them, they also now appear to be the source of your happiness.
Trouble is, clinging onto someone like this for support is about as much use as a chocolate teapot…
Now think back over all of the relationships that you have been involved in and the morphing, adapting, changing, and shifting that you have been doing in the quest to be loved. Now imagine you have been doing this with each person, shifting for each of their idiosyncrasies and perceived requirements for nabbing a relationship with them – is it any surprise that in redefining yourself for each person and internalising all of the crap en route that you no longer know who you are?
Remember in Pretty Woman when he asks Julia Roberts character what her name is and she says ‘Whatever you want it to be’?
Well for each and every person that loses themselves in other people, if you imagine that someone is asking you who you are each time, you’re saying ‘Whatever you want me to be…if it means you love me and validate me’
It’s no wonder you can’t let go of the relationship and you end up feeling isolated because if you opt out of the madness, they’ll take your latest version of you with them.
Back in part 2 where I explain about how fear will keep you isolated and moving past it. Part 3 is now available.
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Thank you for posting this Natalie. It made me sit with my jaw dropping at how necessary it is to say these things.
I didn’t really have this as an issue, personally, apart from one very short lived idiot who got short shrift – he would tell me I couldn’t call anyone anything affectionate “in case people got the wrong idea”. He got shown the door and it was slammed firmly shut after him, which goes to show I am not always weak with men 🙂
For other ladies though, this is going to be heaven sent. Again, wonderful.
3 months of NC. Feeling great and these posts make me feel even better. Right now it’s all about ME!!
“Because you have strayed so far from everything that you thought you believed about yourself and professed to want and need, and because you have internalised a lot of what has been taking place or being said, you have ended up becoming isolated.” – oh my, I must confess I have slipped back into this isolation pattern. After I broke up with my ex a few weeks ago, I was starting to become reconnected with family and friends, and it was feeling great. I have just broken NC with him after having to see him in person, and I already recognize that I am going that isolation route again – I have voice mail messages from my sister, and one from a good friend who has just returned from holidays, and I am delaying getting back to them because I am obsessing about my exEUM again, worrying that it will be difficult to go back to not communicating with him. Also, they don’t know about my 14 month long relationship with them, so I can’t vent about him with them. All I want to do is read this site and hear about other’s experiences to keep me strong and recover from this recent contact.
“We then attempt to please them throwing all of our attention and ‘love’ in their direction only to find that we are damned if we do and damned if we don’t, and often left alone, anyway.” – I have given him my attention and “love” in the last few days, but I know deep down where it will get me – NOWHERE.
“even when you recognise how dangerous and wrong they are, you haven’t got anything familiar left to hold onto, so you keep holding onto them.” – OK, this is making me want to get off this lazy track of not getting back to my friends and family. I do NOT want him to be the only familiar thing I have left, and then to have him completely disappear anyway. He is *poison* and has caused me great misery – he will *never* be a source of great happiness for me. I refuse to use him as a lifejacket, as he is more like an evil undertow in a river leading to a lake filled with sewage. I refuse to be whatever little doormat he wants me to be just so he gives me attention and “love”.
I’m going to call my friend back now. She values my friendship, would never want me to morph into anything just to please her, and talking to her makes me feel better about being the person that I am, not worse!!!
Thanks NML.
oops, I meant my 14 month long relationship with HIM!!! – typo, sorry
@Meant — BRAVO!! I can tell from your posts that you’re starting to see the value in you and expressing your belief that you deserve more than the breadcrumbs he’s throwing you!! You DO deserve more!!
@NML — You said “All it takes is repeated comments or arguments about you talking to/spending time with certain people and you start to distance yourself because you think it will make them happy.” The isolation you speak of is more relevant to my 20 year marriage to a diagnosed narcissist than to my recent relationship with a commitment phobic man. The isolation with my ex-Narc husband didn’t occur because I consciously thought it would make him happy. Rather, it was a result of him insidously inserting himself into every aspect of my life and taking over as a means of control. Like the woman you post about, my ex-Narc husband was also jealous of the relationship I had with my oldest child. In order to survive, I distanced myself emotionally about 10 years into the marriage. I’m now 2 1/2 years out of the marriage and he still tries to control through the use of the children.
Anyway, I found the article more relevant to the behavior and impact produced in marriage to a narcissistic man than to a relationship with a commitment phobic man. My ex-commitment phobic man did not push me toward isolationism or to center my world around him or to morph my personality for him such as a narcissist would. Rather, when things got too close and centered more on him and the relationship, he’d pull away to create emotional distance and manage the expectations down.
For what it’s worth, although some behavioral characteristics may be seemingly the same, there is a real difference in the inner workings of the mind of a narcissist as compared to the mind of a commitment phobic man. While both manifest the behaviors of emotional unavailability, the primary causes are very different. In the case of emotional unavailability with commitment phobes, the behavior manifested is avoidant and triggered by conscious or unconscious anxiety which may be due to separation trauma experienced during childhood. In the case of the emotional unavailability of a genuine narcissist, they lack empathy, care only about themselves and view others as nothing more than objects to be used for self agrandizement. Perhaps your definition of EUM encompasses both narcissists and commitment phobes since the resulting behavior is the inability to attach emotionally. I think it’s important to keep in mind that these are two very different personality types.
Very interesting. The AC I knew was only a friend, but I realized during the friendship that I had to be a ” sad” person to relate to him on his level, if that makes sense. His whole schtick with me was “poor wounded friendless soul” so I went from being a very positive, upbeat, happy-type person to having to dredge up sadness to make conversation.
When I snapped out of it and found my happy self again, he accused me of always being “hurt” around him, even though I’d left that behind months before.
When I cut him out of my world, it was a huge relief in that I didn’t have to pretend to be depressed or put myself in that mindset to relate to his acting depressed.
I have not quite gotten back to the way I was before I met him- positive, optimistic, cheerful, full of faith and love. I put on that face so I appear to be very much “me” but inside I often still feel anger, bitterness.
I’m not quite sure how to let go of this feeling that I need revenge- that I want to expose him and make sure everyone knows he’s a creep. I do nothing, but inside it’s still seething.
Narcissists and Acs/Eus are indeed RADICALLY different! I’ve been in with both and if the Relationship Fairy dropped down and ordered that I had to chose between the two only forever…. I’d chose AC/EU. Painful, twisting and disruptive as they are, Narcs are a million times worse.
Think “Psychopath”. Real Psychopath, not just term for “nasty bloke”. Real Psychopath who will do you real harm if you are not worth keeing anymore or of no use… Narc is one small (very small) step from that.
DANGEROUS as well as disruptive and self serving.
Think of when you can’t reach something in a cupboard and you need a small stool to make the height… to a Narc, the small stool is YOU, a human being they need to stand on to reach where they want. Not good enough? Don’t help them reach it? Then you’re thrown out without a glance back. Furthermore, the Narc will make sure you and all and sundry know how inadequate, useless, ridiculous and pathetic you were.
AC/EU is small fry in comparison. I guess that’s why (having endured ex Narc Husband and ex Narc Boyfriend) EU/The Player was so easy for me to jettison. Not one glance backwards, except to understand that I soooo needed to learn what I was doing wrong.
Nonetheless, Eu’s behaviour led me here: and for that I thank him! I want them all gone; but, Please God, especially Narcs! I never again want to actually have to fear for my/my child’s safety as well as worrying about finding myself lonely/sexless.
If you’ve never experienced a Narc… thank your personal god for loving you so much! And AC/EU is a joke in comparison.
That’s not to belittle the experience of having endured AC/EU, it’s just to say there’s much, much, much worse going around. Before you get to Narc, learn! AC/EU can actually be turned into something positive in that way – they make you want to learn before things get much, much, much worse!
Thank you again, NML, for this opportunity to learn.
love, Leonine
Ok I just found a perfect illustration to what this article is trying to say. Specially about the pretty woman quote: “whatever you want it to be”
http://www.salon.com/comics/lay/2009/08/21/lay/index.html
That is an AWESOME cartoon, Katty! Thanks for sharing.
@Serena and Leonine
Interesting. I’ve slept on this and wonder if the manifestation of ex but one is skewed because of him wanting some form of open relationship. Certainly I empathise VERY VERY strongly with Serena’s comment about emotional distancing – I draw the analogy of the cute bounding Andrex puppy bounding in and being smacked in the face with a frying pan – eventually that dog, whose nature makes it sweet and loving, will become numb and uncaring.
There was jealousy which he used to try to change my opinions etc, about everything. In his case though, and increasingly as the relationship died more and more, I took no notice and perhaps that’s why I said I wasn’t affected. I must have been, and sitting here now I know that his attempts to blacken the name of the mirage made me cleve even harder cos he was “so different”. Oh, the irony of that one. Same shit, different body, different after shave disguising the smell …
Food for thought. However, other than when there were genuine reasons why I also didn’t want to engage with someone I made a point of refusing to pander to this controlling behaviour. I will ponder this some more, thanks ladies (I know you know exactly what sort of behaviour I mean).
Oh by the way Leonine and Serena both, thank you for sharing your throughts about the difference between EU and Narcissism. One of the worst aspects of getting your head around getting your life back from these people is that others just don’t get it and tbh why should they: till you have lived it how can you?
I heartily agree – if the choice was between commitment phobic flippy flappy want your cake and eat it EUM behaviour, and another Narc, I actually feel like I know exactly how I’d handle EUM. Like you Leonine it was the search for help about Narcs which lead me here and I do occasionally find myself thinking “you don’t know how lucky you are” about those who just had an assclown.
The point made that both Narcs and EU having the same ***EU*** behaviour is very obvious in hindsight but it has just helped some unnamed piece of the puzzle drop into place somewhere in the backroom of my mind. CLICK!
@Butterfly — The scientific term for narcissism is Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) and while it varies in severity, it results in emotional unavailability. I know what you mean that “others just don’t get it and tbh why should they: till you have lived it how can you?” I have a close friend whose ex-husband was NPD like mine. Whenever I try to describe my current ex-guy to her she’s insistent that he’s NPD. He’s not, he’s emotionally unavailable but very different. Even though I remind her that I know what NPD is, I lived with it too and that this guy’s not, she can’t wrap her mind around my experience because she has nothing to reference to. It’s irritating!
With regard to the type of men (called EUM’s) and women (called fallback girls) described here, I am thinking more in terms of attachment orientations. The men seem to exhibit “attachment aviodance” and the women seem to exhibit attachment anxiety.” In my case, what led me here was was a relationship with an EUM that was commitment phobic not narcissistic. I scanned the journals and found nothing on commitment phobia but I knew this phenomena had to have been researched. I think I’ve finally found it and its researched in the context of adult attachment theory. I’ve only begun to dig into this and I’m really interested to find whether any etiology has been isolated for these attachment issues.
Wish some of you ladies lived closer 🙂
@serena – you sound a bit like me, I too have been through just about every site on the internet to try to work out what make my AC behave like he does. I’ve learned a huge amount about narcissism, attachment theory, commitment phobia, Asperger’s, the list goes on and on. I think my AC could fit into every single box though I’m pretty sure that he would be diagnosed with NPD if he ever wanted to find out why he is ‘different’
I find it all fascinating stuff but have also realised though that it really doesn’t matter which label they have on their foreheads or how they got to be like that, their behaviours are similar and more importantly the effects on us are similar. They certainly aren’t interested in changing themselves (even if they could) so its down to us to do what’s best for us,
This site is by far and away the most informative and supportive and least judgmental that I’ve found. NML and the people who post here are just warm and wonderful.
Sine we are on the jolly discussion of narcissism, I also learned more than I ever wanted to know. Best book I read was The Wizard of Oz and other Narcissists. Plenty of reviews on Amazon; what I ended up learning was that it is up to you to protect yourself from the influence of the narc’s destructive behaviors, as well as decide how much you are willing to put up with. ( In my case it completely reinforced my NC resolve)
Also, be aware they do often cause us to also become a version of a narcissist, yes…if unawares we become more like them. Just like this post talks about, Let;s be clear though…we all are learning just who is responsible for us and our healthy behavior, we are ! Good day everyone.
aphrogirl – yes – this is certainly true that the behaviour rubs off. When I first did NC it was with realisation of the Narc … and when I went back I threw the whole lot in the dustbin cos I found some rose tinted specs. Going back was painful but illuminating, and in setting my boundaries I am setting some for myself too, in terms of why I push away from certain people: them or me? I have a friend who is EUM as anything and does show some level of Narcissism (it’s not an on/off switch, it’s not a disease, some is healthy in all of us) but I am limiting how much I let his occasional extreme selfishness bother me. This is different to being EU myself, it’s choosing not to take certain things personally.
@Butterfly – “Going back was painful but illuminating†– I am so feeling that right now. Although my ex is an EU/AC and not a Narc, by re-establishing contact with him this last week, I have put myself back in that hellish place which is withdrawal from the EUM drug. I don’t think it’s quite “square one†like lisa suggested on the previous post of NML’s, but it sure is close.
Aphrogirl said “we all are learning just who is responsible for us and our healthy behavior, we areâ€, and I acknowledge it is my fault alone. Why did I think I could get back to being close with him “just for a brief timeâ€, and then come back to real life and start NC right back at week 5? Brad is right; every close interaction with a partner involves sharing of breath, exchange of hormones and pheromones, as well as stirring of emotions, which makes “mind over matter†strategies to get over them weak at best.
I feel nauseated, my chest aches, I have a lump in my throat, I miss my illusion of him terribly, I want him to contact me even though I told him we are not back together. I don’t feel like interacting with anyone else right now (although I will be going to a family reunion today). This feeling of isolation I have today has been self-inflicted. He is not good for me, it was never real love, he is an addiction, I was foolish to re-engage, and I *will* return to fighting this.
Thanks for reading, all.
@Meant you might not feel like going to your family “do” but it will help you. Right now you have to be kind to yourself not beat yourself up. Being around people who love you will really be a lot more pleasant than you realise, plus you already know it is an illusion.
You are hard on yourself, you were bearly into it when you had to see him again, you’ve done so so well 🙂 xxx
I believe the term, “commitmentphobia” was coined by Steven Carter and Julia Sokol in either, Men Who Can’t Love or He’s Scared, She’s Scared. Anyway . . .
It is important that we recognize the difference between NPD and EU. Both have the same symptoms, but as others have pointed out, they are not the same. That is not to say that relationships with either don’t end up destroying us.
I think what is germaine to those of us trying to recover from a relationship that was destructive to us, is that we keep our focus on us. That we stay in our head rather than by trying to get into the other person’s head and understand/comprehend what in the world is going on in there. This journey “out” of my addiction to the EUM has been, at the very least, interesting. But mostly, it has been painful. However, the pain of the relationship is something that I don’t ever want again. I was never physically harmed, but my hypertolerance for “crappy” behavior was off of the “spectrum.” Until this last relationship, I truly believed that all people can change. But, I now realize that is not so.
Yes, I still long for what I thought we had, what I thought him to be, what he said he was, etc., but I refuse to put myself in that position, with him, again. I mean, everyday I have to put myself there, in that mindset, to stay, NC. It is really really hard, because I run into him at work all of the time. At first, I was worried about people noticing my distance, etc., but I have noticed that the “gossipers” soon lose interest, as there is always some other drama for them to focus on or blow out of proportion.
NC protects me. I wish I could say that I don’t wonder if he misses me, what is going on in his personal life, etc., but I can say that with each passing day, I “get it” more and more, that by focusing on me and saying, “it doesn’t matter,” that I have begun to retrain my brain.
It doesn’t matter what is going on inside his head. He didn’t choose me; he chose to stay where he has been for many many years: Stuck in his unhappiness. He must like it there, or he must have an entirely different version of happiness than do I. But, I keep saying, “It doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter.”
It keeps me stuck, as well. Because, until I get this out of my head, I am isolated. I mean, I may not look it, as I keep myself busy and focused on the tasks of life, but I am isolated.
As for the literature on EU, it is mostly “anecdotal” as there are a lot of psychotherapists who have published books on this topic, but in most of them, there is some citation about early studies done on this topic.
Well said Angelina. It’s the leftfield which still floors me and generally speaking it’s music more than anything. There was some soppy song on the radio yesterday (I actually don’t like soppy songs) as I was elbows deep in suds cleaning out the fridge and there was a line about wanting to “die in your arms” and I found myself crying and thinking “where the hell did THAT come from?”. As you say though, the focus has to come off them and onto “me”, as I have said in my post on the last thread I feel where we all get stuck at various stages of the journey.
It’s especially dark and gloomy here today but I am in a great mood apart from finding my pillow whispering to me LOL. Not other thoughts – not so much of the isolation you mention and which I can empathise with only too well.
@Angelina – just wanted to acknowledge your strength in maintaining your NC even though you see your ex at work all the time. I really can’t imagine how that would feel, and how you would muster the will it would take to do that. Good for you.
“it doesn’t matter what is going on inside his head. He didn’t choose me; he chose to stay where he has been for many many years: Stuck in his unhappiness. He must like it there, or he must have an entirely different version of happiness than do I. But, I keep saying, “It doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter…It keeps me stuck, as well. Because, until I get this out of my head, I am isolated. I mean, I may not look it, as I keep myself busy and focused on the tasks of life, but I am isolated.”
Thanks for this. I will join in your mantra – it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter….I hope your feelings of isolation subside soon, too…
Meant to be Happy,
I hope you have a wonderful time at your family reunion! I remember the days when I was sad about trying to go “no contact” and it was so hard to be around my family because no one knew how sad I was or even knew of he situation, but I always tried to focus on my family members and how much they really mean to me, even the distant ones!
Sometimes just lovin’ on other people instead of thinking about our own s#it for a moment is exactly the perspective we need to help ease the sadness for awhile.
I hope you can enjoy all the different interactions you’ll have with your “peeps” today!
I don’t know how you are with little kids, but I love just playing ball or duck duck goose or anything with the kids because they are so funny and full of life especially at family functions, and they love it when grown-ups interact and play with them. It really is a clean, simple, uplifting kind of fun!
Blessings!
@ Angelina: I so agree that we have to keep the focus on ourselves. That’s what I’m learning from NML’s work and the wonderful bloggers here.
Having been “involved” with both NPD and EU I now understand that what they are, who they are, how they think and behave is THEIR BUSINESS and not mine.
I can’t change them or their ways (and nowadays I have no inclination to, either). I can only change ME. That’s enough to be getting on with, I’m finding out – and while it’s tough work, it’s productive and worthwhile too. I’m learning relevant knowledges to live by and, importantly, pass along to my daughter at the right time.
love, Leonine
@Butterfly
“Pinning the blame on them is the very essence of what this thread is about: emotional laziness and an unwillingness to look at the things WE do or don’t do, the changes we have to make, the issues we have to face and accept.
This includes our own emotional unavailability, and it is not just men who are narcissists either (statistically it’s about 75% men by all accounts but I have encountered female Narcs and the red flags are just as clear).”
Two thoughts. One, just as the see-saw of any codependent, compulsive relationship, the process of getting over one is bound to swing back and forth between self-blame and self-pity. The truth of what had created the miserable situation in the first place lies somewhere in between the two. Two to tango, birds of a feather, etc etc. While I don’t know that this applies to everyone participating in our conversations here, I know that I had sought out this man, pursued the romantic within the friendship that we already had (which, by the way, up until that point had been a very healthy and supportive one), and was just as instrumental in creating the pretend world we ended up inhabiting as he was. This is where I blame myself; for better or worse we do, after all, shape our own lives. When I do feel sorry for myself, on the other hand, ask the “why me†questions and shift the blame to him as the person that “did this to meâ€, on some level I always recognize that as a self-defense mechanism. Just as complacency had led me here in the first place, stoking the anger will give me the impetus to get out. I’m sure there are healthier ways of dealing with all this but in the meantime I for one had to make a conscious decision to stay result oriented through the process of ending the relationship and have to accept that I may play into some self-destructive behaviors along the way. If I possessed the mental fortitude needed to display emotional stability and fairness to the other person throughout all this – well, I wouldn’t be sitting here today writing about the mess my life currently is.
My other thought has to do with what I think makes a narcissist. Do I see a lot of the traits of one in myself? You bet. Obsessing with what you think and say, how the world perceives you, and this constant striving to conform to what you think is right or good does not stem from self-love. Far from it. I could go on here for pages and delve into how a child feels when you are punished constantly and with such lack of discrimination for what the reasons for it are, and how it makes you just as afraid to take a step forward as you are to take a step back. Nothing ever emerges clearly right or wrong because there is no correlation between the judgments you make on a daily basis and the consequences you suffer. The self-involvement that results from years of this is a means of survival. You begin to think of life as quicksand, where the slightest ill timed shifting of your weight will pull you in. You become so focused on how you tread that you lose sight of the direction you are going.
I’m not offering up this explanation as an excuse for anyone. As years go by everyone has the opportunity to reexamine who they are, and what made them that way is irrelevant. It’s about what you do with it. Again, I can only speak for myself here, but I took the easy way out by first marrying someone who provided all the stability and protection that I should have been working to achieve on my own, and then went in search of someone whose lack of the same was the comfort we take in the familiar. When I say Prince Charming, I do so tongue in cheek; the men that have come into my life over the years did so by happenstance. I was never the girl that dreamt of her perfect wedding one day and set out to find someone to have it with. I have always taken men as they are because they are usually easy company and all my romantic involvements evolved from friendships. When I wrote about the therapeutic benefits of being surrounded by a swarm of good-looking guys I was no more serious than I would have been about stocking my fridge with the proverbial pints of Rocky Road since I’m actually a big fan of sorbet. Putting on a little black dress is fun and nothing more. We all need an ego boost once in a while. The last thing on my mind right now would be another relationship. Not only it wouldn’t be fair to whoever came next since he would just be the rebound guy; I want and need space right now. There is lots to figure out.
Poking fun at times at some of the things the guy I was involved with is doing now takes my mind off missing him. Getting angry or indignant distracts from that feeling of loss I know we all feel from time to time, too. I have no desire for any kind of retaliation and I don’t wish him ill. I have never said anything unkind to him or about him and the only reason that I talk about some of the things that have happened is that both his and my privacy are protected in these posts with the veneer of anonymity. It helps to talk about it, but doing so before, outside of this forum, would have been disrespectful.
Talk about rambling. Yikes.
Meant to Be Happy: As Brad K. says, “NC = No New Hurt.”
That, and finally facing the reality that his inertia – in all things – brought out an inertia in me that I didn’t even know I possessed. Although I am hypertolerant of others’ really bad behavior, etc., when it came to my life, I acted. Not in an impetuous way, but in the sense that when something wasn’t working for me, I took action so that I wouldn’t ever find myself stuck in a situation that wasn’t working for me. Not so, with this guy.
If a job wasn’t right, even if I had to take a pay cut to get somewhere else, and the job would be right, I moved to a new job. I just always figured that with enough will and determination that there wasn’t anything I couldn’t accomplish. I thought I was on my way to something new and exciting, all the way around in my life, and then I met him. It was like I was hit by a tornado that swirled around me and through me, got a hold of my heart and my soul. He wasn’t anyone that I would have normally given the time of day to. Needless to say, I was smitten. To this day, I can’t explain how I let myself “go there”. It’s like the paradox of alcoholism: The alcohol isn’t the problem. So, I came to realize that I was addicted. He had a hold before I knew what had hit me.
So, when I came across the concept of NC, that is what I knew I had to do in order to get out. I had not yet found this site, I did not know that NC was for my protection; all I knew is that my patience was getting me a whole lot of nothing, and I had to take the advice that I had given many an alcoholic. “Dig deep. No one, and I do mean no one can do this but you.”
It took me several times before I realized that his inertia is so deeply embedded that he can’t find a way to something better. And by better, I don’t mean a relationship with me. I couldn’t do the reaching for him, but I could do it for me. So, I dug deep.
Now, am I over him? No. Do I want him back? (This is where the inertia got a hold of me.) I don’t know.
That is why I stay NC. Because, if I don’t, he will get back in, and he will get control. EUMs, as I have come to know them, through the literature, CANNOT make a decision to be with you, but neither can they make a decision to be without you. So, to engage with them means that your inertia gets activated. (This concept is explained very well in NML’s book.)
I cannot wait for the day when I see him, in the hall, that I don’t have a reaction. This is the hardest work I have ever had to do. I also think that I lost a lot of self-respect – I went where I never thought I would have – and I don’t want to go there again. I’m not competitive, so I don’t have to win, but I do have a lot of pride, and I am embarrassed that I didn’t maintain my self-control.
I do think, that he got involved with someone else, right away, or shortly thereafter, so again, this is where the, “It doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter,” works for me. Negative imaging of him didn’t do a thing for me. But imagining him and her together is enough to keep me away from him – for good. I am not one to judge, but with this one (her), – let me just say – it isn’t the “community” that Brad K. talks of. The one with honor, character, and respect. I almost pray that the rumors are true. For him to choose her means that he chooses the opposite of honor, character, and respect, and I don’t want any part of that community. I made a mistake, I don’t need to keep making the same mistake over and over again.
That’s the community I want to live in. And I have to earn my stripes back to get there. I don’t see it as courageous, I see it as self-preservation. And, self-preservation is not synonymous with selfish. That, too, took me a long time to learn.
Meant to Be Happy: I wanted to add that the rumor that I heard was long ago, but I do see them together. I walk away when I hear his name or talk of his projects and her projects. I let the “largeness” of the conference venues, etc. protect me. I explained, in a past post, on a different topic, how I handle the day to day in those types of situations. If it is just the two of us, in the hall, unless he says, “Hello,” I do not initiate.
@sadthing — “This site is by far and away the most informative and supportive and least judgmental that I’ve found. NML and the people who post here are just warm and wonderful.”
I agree!! The support on this site got me through the worst of withdrawal!!
@Angelina — It is Steven Carter and Julia Sokol who wrote about commitmentphobia. I thought the literature was mostly anecdotal too, but stumbling onto “adult attachment theory” in scholarly journals has made me see strong parallels.
Everybody heals in their own way and at their own pace. For me, because I had nothing to reference my experience with my ex-boyfriend to, it’s been helpful to find information on the behavior and sites like this that offer support. With regard to researching “adult attachment orientations” as they pertain to romantic relationships, it’s not just about him, but about me as well. My orientation seems to fit in with “attachment anxiety” which includes obsessive romantic thoughts and feelings, proximity-seeking behavior, and other thoughts and behaviors that many women write about here. I’m wondering what sets us up for this. I want to discover if they have isolated a primary cause for these attachment orientations as well as any effective treatments. For me, digging in is an effort at self discovery as well as digging for information on how
treatable “attachment avoidance” is (still haven’t completely written off “betting on potential” but I may, depending on what I discover; and NO, I don’t think it’s within MY power to fix him).
If we are mostly women with an orientation in romantic relationships toward “attachment anxiety,” it doesn’t matter whether we’re involved with an EUM, AC, or Narc., we tend to behave in the same way and that’s what gets us in trouble. So the question is how best to move from an orientation of “attachment anxiety” toward a healthy orientation of “attachment security.”
I’m sharing information as I’m learning. If this information isn’t useful to anyone please let me know. I won’t be offended and I won’t waste anyone’s time with it.
@Meant — I understand how seeing him brings back all those illusions and also the intense feelings of withdrawal. Just remember that these feelings will get less intense and pass as long as you remain NC. I had the same reaction after my ex-EUM arrived for his surprise visit 3 weeks ago. It drummed up all sorts of strong and mixed emotions. But now, the intensity of the emotions are less and I am better able to cope. I know the same will happen with you. What keeps me from contacting him is knowing that if I do, I will betray my own best interests, my head will be spinning once again and that will not be good for me. The way I look at it now is this. If this man wants a relationship with me he’s got to fix himself first, otherwise he’s not good for me and can’t offer me the kind of relationship I want and deserve. I am keenly aware that I can’t fix him he’s got to fix him. I’m not willing to settle and I’m not willing to get back into any kind of pushy/pulley relationship with him. So. . . if he comes back and PROVES that he recognizes he’s got an issue and is working hard toward health, possibly I’ll consider it. It’s all gotta come from him and its a tall order but I deserve it, and so do YOU!!
I’d really need some input on this one if possible … to recap, my relationship with my EUM slowly disintegrated over Christmas. He promptly informed me that he needed his ‘space’ and by then I had had enough anyway and it ruining my Chistmas completely must have never have occurred to him. All the drama, the up’s and down’s had got to me in a big way. I never felt I was good enough for him either, he used to always find ways to stir things up. Firstly we decided to be friends but that didn’t work out at all, it was truly awful for me, not for him. Then it all slowly fell apart over the spring, I broke NC two times but realised that I felt much much better without him in my life so kept to it. I haven’t spoken/contacted him since mid May.
Yesterday, however, I got a few teary voice messages and sentimental sms’ from him, saying he was on holiday (alone) in the exact spot we were a year ago, (it’s a beautiful, romantic place by the way), feeling really badly about things and missing me (also said that he loved me). It was a real shock to the system to hear this I must admit … then I get another sms today where he stated that he was sorry that he had ‘let me down at some point’ but blamed me too, for my lack of trust in him! Before we met and before his ‘disasterous marriage’ (his words) he had kept a mistress who were married. Now initially this was such a red flag to me that that in itself made me feel distrustful of him right from the start. Then he used to very openly ogle attractive women in the shops, etc. which to me is another red flag. Generally there was just something in his demeanour that made me feel vary of him, very difficult to pinpoint what is is really. He used to tell me how distrustful he was of marriage and relationships. He also told me he in his sms today that he was ‘beyond reproach’ meaning he had never been unfaithful to me.
Now on top of all this he told me he hadn’t changed his mind about me and that he still does not want a relationship with me, but at the same time he still wishes we could be ‘friends’ and since I haven’t responded to him since May he supposes that he ‘is dead’ to me.
I get the feeling that this is sheer manipulation going on here … trying to stir things up so that I will respond. I feel really uncomfortable and I’m upset that his strategy almost worked as I felt compelled to write back out of friustration, asking him to leave me alone.
What do you all think? I feel really confused and messed with.
Oh and another thought …I keep thinking, why would he go on holiday alone to a place where we once shared beautiful moments together?! And at the same time, he doesn’t want to be with me in any real sense of the word, yet he went there. He sounded genuinely tortured on in message he sent whilst being there.
None of it makes any sense at all 🙁
Serena – your posts ans wonderfully enlightening! Please keep it up, just wanted to say that they have really helped me.
Thanks for sharing.
Hi girls I need help on how to deal with my mother.I have a very dificult relationship with her and I cant put limits on my interactions with her (like NML sugests) because I live at my parents house yet.My mother is very controling (the kind that wants everything done her way) and will resent you if you dont do things how she wants.Even if is something that totaly up to me,she takes me saying no or refusing to do the way she wants as a ofense and get mad.She is a drama queen too (I think there is where I got my atraction to drama),she finds a way to turn every litle thing in a problem or discussion somehow (even small and positive things).She is always complaning or in a bad mood.And talking to her about her behaviour isnt a option since she wont listen.She will take it as Im ofending her or dont like her like she usualy says when I try to point it out to her,plus she never thinks that she is wrong.A while ago she even got mad at me (and stoped talking to me) just because she asked my opinion about a discussion she had with my dad and I said I think he is right.Anyway Im trying to not let it afect me so much and put boundaries in my relationship with her but is so hard.Like I said she doesnt understand that what she is doing is wrong and just will go to the silence treatment or fight with me and Im sick of fighting with her every 5 minutes.The only way to be at peace with her is do everything she says and say what she wants to hear (what I did most of my life to avoid her disaproval) but I dont want to do that anymore.Im working on loving myself so that means I should speak out my mind,show my fellings and so on and not just keep being somebody else to please her.But every time I do so is like a war explode here.I need help on how to handle it girls.
@G
Ouch. Ouch ouch ouch. Please tho, delete the text and don’t reply. He’s sending out a “hook” to see if you still care and if you reply he’ll probably just ignore it. From my own experience of this many times, and I am sure others will back it up.
Words are cheap, a text is lazy, and this is a low shot fuelled by his own feeling bad (if he hasn’t changed his mind then he has no right hurting you like this again).
Answer my other post,please.I realy need advice on how to handle that.
Anusha you need to seek professional help for that one honey. Sorry. You are asking too much of people here expecting that we can advise where expert intervention is required.
Ok Butterfly,I guess maybe you are right.I was just hoping that somebody here could tell me how to handle it but like you said maybe that is a professional problem.
Thing is, this isn’t JUST about you. I’m sure there are people with insights, as Brad has above. However, unless there are trained people well we could do way more harm than good, yanno?
Hugs.
@Brad re your advice to G. My friends (female) would all be saying it needs a two word answer: first one being to fornicate under consent (of the) king. I think silence is the best answer but yes blocking is a good idea (never thought of that since my mirage NEVER EVER EVER called me).
Brad- I just saw your answer to my post,thank you 🙂 I agree that I need to understand my parents since that can afect me like you said and I might try do to that in therapy.I just had enough of it.I hate that it has to be so hard for me to just express my fellings and opinions.That I need to go trough such a hard time (guilty trip,critics,anger) from my mother when I do so.Like others mentioned here those are things that makes you think that is wrong to express yourself and that what you think or fell doesnt realy matter or shouldnt be showed.But I learned now that is not true,I do matter and I want to start expressing myself more.There is nothing wrong with that.But everytime my mother reacts like that is like Im trying realy hard to change and she just pushing me back.I know we cant control how people react to us but just would be a lot easier to change how I behave if I didnt have to go trough all that.
Butterfly- I know you mean well honey,no problem 🙂 Anyway that just reinforce even more my willing to start therapy.
@G,
One of my favorite science fiction authors uses a line, “never think something is evil if ignorance would do the same thing.” Or something like that.
Shoes don’t stretch, and men don’t change. This is not NC that you have – his phone messages got through, so you don’t have his number blocked. His text messages got through, so you don’t have that blocked, either.
And, hopefully, he isn’t “dead” to you, he isn’t someone with no past, no feelings of affection or dread or longing that you feel for him. He is, instead, a person known to cause you harm and pain. You know he was unsafe, that his relationships are unsafe (all of them!), that his intended use for you is unsafe, and would bind you to him while keeping you away from healthy companions.
No, no, no, Hell no. Don’t contact him – get his phone and texts blocked – but if you were to say anything (please do *not*!) it should be something like, “You make me feel like a schoolgirl – and you are the sexual predator that was banned from coming within a mile of me and my school. Go!” On second thought – maybe you should ask an attorney about a restraining order, if this guy is still stalking you. Start keeping a record of all his contacts for legal evidence. Identify any witnesses you can to his shenanigans.
Luck!
.-= Brad K.´s last blog ..br: Throw the bum out, and his kids =-.
@ Anusha,
Acting controlling as your Mother does gets to be a bad habit. But it usually starts with feelings of not having any control over her life. You mention your father – you are going to want to understand both of your parents, because you are likely to be inheriting, or learning, the same defense mechanisms – the demanding and controlling, the drama and taking things personally – to whatever in your father triggered those feelings.
And unless you understand about your father and mother, you are very likely to pick a guy with a character similar to your father – and find yourself reacting just as your mother did.
There is another dynamic here. It is your parent’s house. Parents are responsible for training their children to be good and useful members of the community and family. That means a great deal of oversight and guidance. Teens often rebel against that very training – no one wants to be told they are wrong, whether they realize they are wrong or not.
You might try “enabling” your mother in some limited aspect. Like maybe the kitchen. Assume that everything in the kitchen is her beloved possession – and show her the respect and courtesy due to anyone, when you enter that domain. When you actively and verbally assert that you consider the kitchen her domain, that might help a bit, and might open a discussion. Or not.
You might also separate every statement she makes from her. You are not the next sentence you utter – neither is she. Dispute and argue about a single point, never make general remarks (“you always hated me more”). In fact, “never” and “always” should be like cuss words – don’t bring them into a conversation until you have given up on information, and have resorted to bullying to get your way.
And, yes, I do understand the frustration and anger. One late night confrontation in particular comes to mind at my home, in 1972, that I have never forgiven my mother for, even though I gave in that night.
I hope your life turns out better. And soon, too!
.-= Brad K.´s last blog ..ps: Empowering girls, and self confidence =-.
Anusha: One thing about therapy, it only works if you are open to looking at what you can do to change how you perceive and handle your relationships in the world. Do not think that therapy will fix you; a good therapist will assist you in quickly finding your way to a future that is one that works for you in a healthy way. I have friends who have spent years in therapy and have made no progress. I have others who went once or twice and were able to move past their pain.
Thus far, I have only encountered therapists who want to keep me stuck in the past rather than assist me in moving forward, so . . .
From your posts, it sounds as if you truly want things to be better in your life. From your posts, it sounds as if you have begun to make progress in finding an emotionally healthy you. It sounds as if you have will.
The “mom thing” struck a chord with me. While my mother has been the most wonderful person in the world for me, she has, at times, also been the most toxic. And by that, I don’t mean that she was ever mean or spiteful. But she was controlled by her fears. And thus, controlling in many of her behaviors and actions. I was many decades old before I actually said, “No, I won’t do ____________. That doesn’t mean that I don’t love you, it doesn’t mean that I don’t have respect for you. It just means that I won’t do __________ your way.”
While she was strong in so many ways, she was weak in others. She always thought that hard work would result in things being better. Most of the time, she was right. However, working hard on a relationship with someone who you really weren’t connected to didn’t lead to a great relationship.
So I guess my point is . . .
That sometimes, we just have to step outside of ourselves and ask, “What is it that ‘looks’ like appropriate behavior?” If my role models didn’t provide that for me, there are enough examples that do. One thing that has worked for me is to stop doing the things that bring me harm or embarrassment. I can do that quietly and with dignity.
While therapy might help, statistics show it’s 50/50 . . .
Unless your problems are organically based, you have it in you to dig deep, dig in, and find, for you, appropriate, acceptable behaviors that won’t hurt you in the long run. Sometimes that means just accepting what is rather than fighting it, and quietly walking away without causing harm or pain.
Angelina- Thanks for your coment 🙂 I have done therapy before for years and not realy progressed but I think this time I will because I know what is wrong and what I want to acomplish (a better relationship with myself).I sometimes have problems to find new ways to behave and think that show love for myself(I have been reading a lot about it but but Im still strugling on how to put it into action) and I think therapy could help me with that.
About my mom,I fell the same way that you do about yours.I love her and I know she doesnt mean to do me any bad but because of how she was raised and her fears she end up being toxic to me.My brother used to get bothered by her behaviour too but he said that she was like that most of her life so the chances of her changing are very small so he kind of acepted it.But he doesnt live at my parents house anymore so I think that it makes it easier since it doesnt have so much impact on him then.I just wish she would understand me,that I could have a talk about it with her and she would see how bad that is for me and how is geting on the way of me becaming emotionaly healthier.I think that pretty much everybody behave in damaging ways sometimes and having that pointed out to you isnt necessaraly a ofense or means that the person doesnt like you.I wish my mother would get it but she doesnt,so talking to her about it usualy just makes it worse and we end up fighting.She takes it as if Im atacking or criticizing her.I just want to be able to speak my mind and show my fellings without geting all that hard time for it.
“No, I won’t do ____________. That doesn’t mean that I don’t love you, it doesn’t mean that I don’t have respect for you. It just means that I won’t do __________ your way.â€
I was just reading your post again and I might say I realy liked that,I think I will try saying that to my mother next time we disagree.
@lisa – I did have a good time at the family function – thanks! I did as you suggested, and hung out with the kids for a while. I love photography, and took some pictures of them – both serious and silly – which they enjoyed seeing in the viewing screen. I also thought about these children (mostly girls) and hoped they will be able successfully to find their way through the relationships that lay ahead of them. They are so innocent, so trusting, and have such a pure, unadulterated joy that is contagious. You are right, being in their company allowed me to step outside myself, to become less self-absorbed for a while, and to have a *genuine* smile 🙂
@Angelina – “EUMs, as I have come to know them, through the literature, CANNOT make a decision to be with you, but neither can they make a decision to be without you. So, to engage with them means that your inertia gets activated.†This is making sense. He goes along with not contacting me if I request it. Yet, he has told me his door is “always open†to me and that he’ll love me till he dies. And so I am tempted to remain in limbo, but it feels so uncomfortable! Like you, I have lost plenty of self-respect over this situation. “I made a mistake, I don’t need to keep making the same mistake over and over again.†– Amen! Self-preservation is a necessary undertaking!!!
@Serena – “I am keenly aware that I can’t fix him he’s got to fix him. I’m not willing to settle and I’m not willing to get back into any kind of pushy/pulley relationship with him.†– it is soooo tempting to try to rescue these “fixer-uppersâ€, but I am coming to realize that we are actually being disrespectful of EUM’s if we feel sorry for them and “decide†that they could use our help. You are right – if we want a partner, and not a patient, we should be looking for those who already have their act together.
@G – no wonder you are confused! Talk about mixed messages. If you have been able to be NC with him since May, I’m thinking you may already have your life back to normal without much of a hole where he used to be. Is that right? Although in my current raw state of withdrawal, I would be very tempted to respond to the text, I know that the others who have told you to refrain from responding are right.
@Anusha – I also have issues from my parents I need to work through, and I’m in my 40’s! Nonetheless, I just got my first therapy appointment booked for a little over a week from now. Your mother sounds very sensitive, similar to mine. I have to tell my mom something positive, and then be very gentle in any “suggestions for change†I would like to make to her.
You mentioned being in therapy before, but not following through with what the person suggested you do. Perhaps this time, you will be better able to follow through with their suggestions. Also, I think it is important that you have the right therapist. I am planning to see how this therapist makes me feel – can I work with a male therapist, can I trust him, does my gut tell me that he can understand me and help me, does he seem to care about working with me, and committed to help me to become healthier??? If the answer to any of these is no, I plan to ask for someone else. Perhaps you could consider doing the same.
Anusha: I didn’t actually live with my mother when I said that. I was only staying there for a few days on a holiday…, and made more than six figures a year when I said it. I had someplace to go if my mother didn’t accept what I had to say. . . Again, I was never in any physical harm from my parents, nor was there abuse; I was just different than the rest of my family. It took a long time for me to let them know that I was different. Before I ever took that step of announcing, I KNEW that I was safe and I KNEW that I would be okay.
I think that I was pointing out that the power lies within us . . . inside.
I am making the assumption that since you live with your parents that you don’t actually have the means to support yourself; I am also making the assumption that since you are reading posts on this site that you have been through a horrendous experience with a man who didn’t treat you right and you accepted that treatment for longer than you should have.
I just wanted to say to you that your attempts to get emotionally healthy are admirable. I wanted to say that the journey is not easy. I wanted to say that power and strength lies within. I wanted to say that we can’t change others, we can only change ourselves.
That said, sometimes we can only change inside. Sometimes we can’t let others hurt us. Unfortunately, sometimes we end up staying too long with people who aren’t healthy for us.
You then think that the only way you can find your way back, is to use them as a lifejacket to hold onto, to effectively bring you back to shore. They on one hand represent why you’re so miserable but because everything has been sidelined and abandoned to be with them, they also now appear to be the source of your happiness.
Lucky for me when I was absolutely at the end of my rope, not eating, sleeping, and drinking – the AC/Narc/EU stayed true to form and made no real effort to be supportive. If he had, it would have only reinforced my deluded notion that I still needed him, and that he had anything even basic emphathy to offer. He dodged me every chance he could or said one thing and did the other. It hurt like hell, but I eventually had to come to realization that even if I was about to jump in front of a truck he would make no effort to help – ergo what on earth am I seeking in him, he lacks the ability to reciprocate or feel empathy even when he has caused me such pain.
Now think back over all of the relationships that you have been involved in and the morphing, adapting, changing, and shifting that you have been doing in the quest to be loved. Now imagine you have been doing this with each person, shifting for each of their idiosyncrasies and perceived requirements for nabbing a relationship with them – is it any surprise that in redefining yourself for each person and internalising all of the crap en route that you no longer know who you are?
– This one applies not just to me personal relationships but to the far majority of my friendships as well, I basically repeated the poor pattern of relating to people in my friendships. Now I have been cutting ppl off quietly and one in particular keeps trying and trying – unable to believe that I would call it quits on our toxic friendship.
Two parts of this column really stand out for me…
“You then think that the only way you can find your way back, is to use them as a lifejacket to hold onto, to effectively bring you back to shore. ….
Lucky for me when I was absolutely at the end of my rope, not eating, sleeping, and drinking – the AC/Narc/EU stayed true to form and made no real effort to be supportive. If he had, it would have only reinforced my deluded notion that I still needed him, and that he had anything even basic emphathy to offer. He dodged me every chance he could or said one thing and did the other. It hurt like hell, but I eventually had to come to realization that even if I was about to jump in front of a truck he would make no effort to help – ergo what on earth am I seeking in him, he lacks the ability to reciprocate or feel empathy even when he has caused me such pain.
Now think back over all of the relationships that you have been involved in and the morphing, adapting, changing, and shifting that you have been doing in the quest to be loved. Now imagine you have been doing this with each person, shifting for each of their idiosyncrasies and perceived requirements for nabbing a relationship with them – is it any surprise that in redefining yourself for each person and internalising all of the crap en route that you no longer know who you are?
– This one applies not just to me personal relationships but to the far majority of my friendships as well, I basically repeated the poor pattern of relating to people in my friendships. Now I have been cutting ppl off quietly and one in particular keeps trying and trying – unable to believe that I would call it quits on our toxic friendship.
Lisa wrote this and it is so right on
“Sometimes just lovin’ on other people instead of thinking about our own s#it for a moment is exactly the perspective we need to help ease the sadness for awhile.
I hope you can enjoy all the different interactions you’ll have with your “peeps†today! ”
Think about it. Angelina and TJ have described the AC I am recovering from to a T , as they describe men stuck in, and rather enjoying their tortured/ brooding /sad personas. Like the bad boy poet exceot they cant write.
Eventually I became more like him and stayed away from my peeps, and more and more to myself. I saw it happening, I knew it was bad, and it still took way too long to begin recovering myself. I did not just snap out of it after NC.
The opposite of the behavior we learned from the AC is …enjoying your peeps, loving others, doing for others, doing something for others often gets one away from all the s*it in one’s head.
Obviously those of us here have to be a bit more careful when giving, remember those boundaries we need to spot and avoid feeding the soul sucking emo vampires.
The EUM I knew had no peeps, I was his ” best friend” till he turned on me. He consciously chooses not to love others and chooses to stay stuck in the sh*t in his head. I had to choose health, and got away and try to do something with my friends at least once a week. Summer helps.
One more thing. We can’t really love others unless we love ourselves first. So much of what I feel I learned form the AC is that with him I learned to ” unlove” myself. And then I stopped loving everyone and everything. But that was like hitting bottom and where I started to see a big big problem and got to work figuring it out. Weird stuff, for sure, like a vicious circle. But I have stepped out of it, praise be.
Thanks so much for your replies, I really can’t sleep so thought I’d log on for wisdom and strength!
Firstly, my phone number can’t be blocked, which annoys me immensely. Apparently I must change my number which I am now starting to realise that I must. I thought (and hoped) I wouldn’t be hearing from him again, so I just got on with my life and starting to finally feel better. The last talk we had in May I made it clear to him that I might not respond if there was any further contact. I am starting to think now he must have forgotten that bit. (The ‘old’ email adress is deleted by the way, since months back). But of course, these men don’t care … it’s clearly *all* about them.
I will continue NC, absolutely, what choice does one really have in this situation. I have to survive. This hit me really hard though .. and I’ve got a new work related course starting up Monday morning that’s a bit demanding. I’ve had a great summer, really feeling fine but now I realise it doesn’t take much to have a setback, so ladies, block *everything*! As many have said before me, it truly is the only way! Until my new number is installed, I will delete everything he might send without reading.
I think it’s the mixed messages and what I feel is emotional manipulation that is getting to me more than anything else. Firstly he misses me, and then he goes on to apportion blame when somehow he must know that the better part of us breaking up lies with him and his issues. We could never really enjoy a happy relaxing time together because of his deep set fears of attachement. I would have been able to handle this much better if he had not sent me that last ‘blaming’ text, it really felt like the last straw.
I don’t think the danger of being invilved with these men can be underestimated. These men are very dangerous to our health in every way. I even got feverish a few hours after his voicemail messages and texts.
Feeling slightly better but this is truly awful. I believe you are right Butterfly, people can say ‘he’s not that into you’ etc. and give out any old chlichéd line, but before you’re really have had to deal with this ‘condition’ there’s no way of knowing how deeply, and negatively, these people can affect you.
Aphrogirl: OMG! I read, exactly what you described, and what NML describes, and what is also described in in He’s Scared, She’s Scared by Steven Carter and Julia Sokol.
Something along the lines of: “Think of it like this; the boat has sunk and you are waiting on the person who sunk the boat to rescue you. What would you do? What you should do, is stop treading water, get the lay of the land and swim towards shore as fast as you can. The other person, the one who sunk the boat, cannot/will not help you. You are waiting, waiting, waiting . . .”
I didn’t stop loving everyone and everything, but I certainly focused too much on the other person who liked (he had to) the ambiguity that he lived in and caused. He had to. He was over fifty years of age for goodness sakes.
That is why these men/people (I don’t think that this is a genderless issue) cause so much damage. In my world, prior to him, once I figured out the problem, I thought, I made a decision, and I acted. I moved forward. With this one, I got stuck for three years. And I got addicted. Ughhhhh….
Well, better quit focusing on what I did or didn’t do, and start staying in my head and my heart and moving forward. I want to believe that my MM was different, that he was a tortured soul, that he was trying to do the right thing by his family, etc.
Reality check: I shouldn’t have been fishing there, he shouldn’t have been in those waters.
Reality check: I now know that I have a problem. I now know that I allowed him in. I should have turned and run the other way.
Reality check: I have to fight this damned addiction every single day.
Reality check: I can’t save him. I can only save me.
@Angelina – “I want to believe that my MM was different, that he was a tortured soul, that he was trying to do the right thing by his family, etc.†– Yeah, me too. But every one of your reality checks applies to me!
Some of you were discussing Attachment avoidance and anxiety earlier, and wondering from where they originate (Serena, Butterfly, Leonine?). I am reading Howard Halpern’s “How to break your addiction to a personâ€. He suggests that problems during the attachment stage of early infancy, when the child has all survival needs met by the mother (indeed, the infant may even feel that he/she is *one* with the mother)- problems such as not receiving an adequate level of attachment/needs fulfillment, can be a factor in relationship addiction. Also, the period of time where the child needs to be “launched†from the security of the ever-present mother (around 18 months old) can be problematic if the child is not “allowed†to launch, either because the mother does not portray faith in the child’s ability to “go it aloneâ€, or because the mother has her own unsatisfied attachment needs and hesitates to let the child go. These problems lead to what Halpern calls “attachment hungerâ€, and compel you to seek and cling to relationships in an addictive way.
He goes on to suggest that “later experiences with insufficient or disturbed loving by either parent/other important people, or their failure to support your independence may also cause you to cling to someone now in the hope of gaining what you feel is lacking in yourself – the ability to survive, to be safe and to be happy. .. the old illusion appears in your current life as *the mother or father to whom you looked to make you feel good, secure and strong exists in the person with whom you are now involved; therefore, if you can get that person to love you, everything will be OK.
* Your addictive compulsion to recapture that early state of being through a connection with that special person, a person who could not possibly fulfill a need rooted in your infancy, means that you are addicted* (Halpern, 2004, pp18-20). We know we are addicted when it is more like a compulsion than a choice to be with the person, when we continue with them even though we know they’re bad for us, when we panic at the thought of the absence of the person, and when we get withdrawal symptoms/ feeling of exile, but also a feeling of *liberation* when the relationship ends.
Looking forward to that feeling of liberation…
“So strong is their basic self-centeredness and desire to exploit others that people may be dropped from their lives with complete indifference to the anguish they might
experience or how their lives will be affected. He or she preys on the weak and vulnerable, enjoying their dismay and anger.”
This is from a work on various psychological matters and this pertains to Narc behaviour. Please note: flippy flappy EU behaviour should not be taken as being the same as this, quite often they are just commitmentphobic. For those around Narcs this should not be news.
I can certainly see lots of dysfunctional behaviour in my family Meant, though I think it was a fairly typical family in most ways. My mother was overprotective and I have always had a compensatory tendancy to counterdependence (hence I can say I was EUW). I think it is immensely useful to know WHY, but as to analysing minutiae – well, this is not for me, if you spend too longn analysing every little thing then you can’t also keep your eyes ahead to make sure you’re not walking into oncoming traffic.
Angelina’s comments re addiction and the feelings surrounding it are spot on though. However, again, there is a world of difference between the EU guy and a Narc: the EU guy is a bit of a jerk with big fear issues, the MM is greedy, the Narc spots you as ripe for the picking and squeezes the life out of you then tosses you aside into a pile of others waiting for you to regenerate just enough to be squeezed dry again.
@G – the good news is that you then have a choice, whether to pin all the attention on him/the past or to see that there are many learning opportunities in this for you and not to do things the same way again. Plus you will spot flippyflappiness etc much sooner and these men lose their appeal in a flash the second that you do. I’m speaking for myself here but I hope others will agree. I don’t feel bad when I opt out either, or that I have been “mean” for being honest and truthful.
Thanks Butterfly – it helps to get some feedback on things.
I think Halpern has it right that attachment avoidance/anxiety starts in infancy. Those paragraphs were spot on for me personally. Lots of work to be done apparently; thanks Meant for including them.
Brad – I reread your post to me and I thought it a bit harsh. I am feeling a bit fragile at the moment so it was in part, hard to take in. (He lives far away from me, so he can only stalk me by phone until my number is changed).
I am still trying to resist giving him a piece of my mind, I am fighting this urge and am hopeful to win! I just want to feel good for opting out of this.
Angelina, that is good ship allegory but heres the way I see it… the guy keeps alternatively jumping ship and looking back to me to throw the lifesaver. When he gets control of the ship he has the distinct tendency to steer her towards the rocky coast, at night of course, when things get dark, on sunny days he sails it just fine. Finally one night the ship hits the rocks and starts to go down. So there I am, sinking with it and a bot worn out from watching and worrying the fool was going to jump ship or steer us into the rocks. So now we are sinking and I know I have to get to safety, and I figure we’ll swim together, encourage each other, maybe help each other if one starts to struggle….but, nope, t there the fool is, swimming off away from shore because he is so very blind, or maybe he has a death wish that day. Regardless, it is so very hard for me to leave him behind and save myself.
No, I never wanted or needed to be rescued but I did develop a relationship with a guy who does love to sail and jump ship but has a serious flaw in that he can’t swim. Losing battle because he really was too afraid to learn to swim, and I figure by the time you are middle age you are supposed to sign up for the damn lessons yourself and quit looking for swimming coaches amongst your peers.The illusion I harbored was that he wanted to be a capable swimmer.
Somehow this made me feel like a failure – because he “asked” me for help with his struggling, po boy, needy, ways, but then he refused to actually do the work needed to transcend those self imposed struggles. Being inexperienced with one who actually would not want to work on their troubles, I ended up angry, frustrated, unhappy, hopeless etc ect. That led me to stay away from everyone because I knew I was becoming a drain to to others.
Writing this makes me think of the fact that depression and negative thinking are a bit contagious so let me end here on a positive note.
NC is the best thing you can do for you and probably for the other person also. It is insightful and makes the space necessary for insight, for you to look inside, process and grow. With contact that space is filed up with trying to deal with the irrational, the cruel, the wishy washy, the whatever version of distraction you problem child/ AC brings to your table.
Ah what goes does it do though? The texts got nastier to “punish” you for daring to ignore him. HIM! How DARE you ignore HIS needs, who the hell do YOU think YOU are? Well, it’s not him is it? He’s feeling so much and pouring it out to you.
My hunch is that if you had responded, esp responded to the bit about loving you, you’d have had a brief time of happiness which felt fake underneath and quite sad once the “rush” had passed – followed by delpetion, devaluation and dumping … based on how he is reacting.
I used to be crushed that he never texted me, he was is so lazy that text is an effort. Now, I am glad.
This site makes me remember things though. I will share three things that illustrate the Narc well.
– When I went to see him I took some mince pies – these were meant to be for his family as discussed, for Xmas. He took them from me, didn’t look at them and put them on the highest possible shelf and closed the door immediately. I bet they are still there, mouldy. He asked me to bring them.
– When I left my stuff there “for the next time you are over” this was because he had said he wanted to leave stuff. The bathroom stuff he was annoyed about. My clothes I left (in a size I aimed to fit into) I know for a fact he has worn and probably had his solo jollies with – and quite possibly, since he was going to a cross dressers convention then decided we were back off again he wore them to meet a woman actively looking for an ugly man in someone’s “frock”. It was just the clothes he wanted – partially as a control issue and partially cos he wanted my clothes.
Yeah I know. LOL.
– When I moved here and had this exciting life change, I sent him some pictures. He didn’t look at them when I sent them – this is the man professing that he loved me “and I think I always will” citing that they “took too long to load” (I asked a week later and I’ve used his PC which is absolutely fine).
Butterfly, what amazes me is how many of us here have heard the same phrases, or shared almost identical difficult experiences… ( well except maybe for the stealing of clothes : )) but the pies left sitting to mould, and the pictures, check…..so very strange.
Ok, so, what’s the point here? maybe that there is a profile of a guy who can take us far away from our goal of being healthy, if we are not hip to it. Let’s accept the fact we may be susceptible for some reason, and are learning what it is so we can get on with life and spot this profile next time we are drawn to them or they are drawn to us.
Meantime, while we are learning, lets take good care of our physical and emotional health so we can come from a position of solid strength next time we encounter any version of the AC.
I forgot to mention. Last night I was out to dinner with good freinds and friends and they asked me out sailing this morning and I said no right away, as has been my habit for too long.I have this convenient excuse of a very huge project I am working on, the I have to work excuse.
They challenged me, said they have asked me all summer, and I immediately though of what I hsd written here and said, yeah you right and told them I would go.
So, I see that I am working hard to get out with others as much as I can and be a positive force when I am out there with them.
Thank you meant and and Angelina for the coments on my post 🙂
Meant- You mentioned Howard Halpern’s book,I have read it too and I can say is a very good book.It realy helped me to understand my adiction to my EUM.I realy like how he explain exactaly what causes the adiction and the ways he sugests to break free from it are very nice too.He sugests in a part of the book that to overcome that we need to make our pratical judgement stronger(what I think I have done already here by being convinced that my EUM is no good for me) and lessen your atachment hunger(that I didnt completely did yet).I think the fact that I still fell the yearning for him shows that the atachment hunger is still strong (but not so strong as it used to be before when it used to comand my actions) so now I just need to work on that.
@aphrogirl GREAT! That’s so good, cos you and I both know that once you get over your initial worry you’ll think “why didn’t I do this before?”. Your friends clearly have some insight into your reluctance, fantastic, don’t forget sunblock tho cos the reflection off the water amplifies UV 🙂 Cluck cluck says mother hen!
I’ve been a bit of a shut in this weekend – this being the weekend I didn’t get to go on this date. I’m trying to see if there is any colloration and I have to say that I don’t think so, I have been in an upbeat mood interspersed with immense tiredness. I’m realising that having run round like a loony and been walking everywhere instead of getting buses or trams I am simply tired/the Epstein Barr is grumbling. I’ve still got lots done this weekend and am enjoying being in MY environment and MY home doing what I want. However, I also have this wedding coming up in a few week’s time and I’d like to leave the country and then come back home to a welcoming clean space 🙂
LOL … song on the radio made me come post:
Yeah, thunder only happens when it’s raining
Players only love you when they’re playing
Yeah, women they will come and they will go
When the rain washes you clean you’ll know, you’ll know
“Dreams” by The Corrs
@Butterfly
I listen to that song when I want to feel negative/realistic about the ex – but I listen to Fleetwood Mac’s version.
The song that fits for me today is Keri Hilson’s “Energy”
the chorus:
“I’m having nightmares from sleeping with the enemy
How did we reverse the chemistry
I don’t want us to be the end of me
This love is taking all of my energy
Energy, My Energy”
And I like “No Surprise” by Daughtry, which is on the radio a lot right now over here on the West side of the Atlantic.
I am like you though – if a song that reminds me of him in a romantic way comes on, I usually have to change the channel so I don’t dissolve into a blob of jelly on the floor. Gonna get some “strong woman” songs going in my head now…
oops, a later verse in Keri’s song is better suited to what a lot of us are going through here:
“Now I can feel a change in me
And I can’t afford to slip much further
From the person I was Meant to be (whoooaa)
Im not afraid to walk alone
Not givin up but movin on
Before it gets to deep
Cuz you’re takin all of my energy”
I capitalized the “meant” for my own benefit lol – I think these lyrics are ones I need to take notice of!!!
Oh I tough through it – I know I am bad for associations and my very firm belief is to make new ones. So atm yes I’d not be making song associations with this clown of yours hon if I were you. I’m thinking these days “it’s hurting, of course it’s hurting, that’s part of healing” maybe. LOL. I rather liked how the lyric popped out at me tho, this is nothing new we are going through, any of us. Songs are, as NML says, full of it.
At some point you’ll get sick of looking back at “him” and want to look at something else. Truly 🙂 So long as you go NC and that NC involves not thinking about him etc. NC is the bedrock, it’s the first step but IS the first step. You know you can do this, now you need to work out what you actually want for you 🙂
Oh and it’s not romantic rememberance in my case – I’ve thought about this. They invariably are hooked in with his Narc – his dreams of glory and devaluing me in “awww honey you know I am only messing, you know I love you” ways. Again, difference between an EU man and a Narc … there ARE no songs which remind me of “us” because there was no “us” only a me and him which really was a him him him “oh yeah there you are”. As he used to sing to me and then say he was joking “it’s all about meeeeee”. Tit 🙂
Ladies, I broke NC, right on third week’s eve.
But I think I have closure now. He had emailed me last night, telling me how he’s been thinking about me all the time, checking his phone an email every hour to see whether there was anything from me. I didn’t write back. Didn’t sleep either, and at 3 a.m. I was on my laptop rereading old emails when – of all people – my mother signed on. She knows about the MM because my mother is the keeper of most my secrets. This morning I filled her in on the 3 weeks of NC and how I had left things. My mother, whose accomplishments and strength of character just make her unhappy marriage to my dad all the more strange, doesn’t mince words and cuts to the chase.
I told her I missed him. She asked whether he was missing me as much. I said that he had told me he was. She then asked whether he missed me enough to move to the other coast and I told her that I didn’t know – never asked. My mom then said that since I had always waffled and then was the one to move away that he might very well think that he was “out for good”. So the only way to resolve things once and for all was for me to clearly say, either you commit to me and be with me or don’t call me anymore. She said that life was going by all too quickly and I needed to find out where we stood: either we’d be together or I needed to move on.
My subsequent reply to his email was exactly was 2 short sentences. I said, “I miss you and I love you and want to be with you. I want you to come”. Hard to believe but over the last two years of our involvement I had never actually spelled it out like that. I suspect now that maybe in the back of my mind my own ambiguity allowed me to never quite end things, to leave an open door, and – this is hard to admit but I think it is true – to always be able to rationalize his lack of real commitment because I could always justify it by never actually asking for it.
Well I’d say this time my declaration was unequivocal. Took me a while to send it, but finally I did, and went back to bed. When my email beeped while I was working at home this morning, anxiety hit me so hard that I got nauseated. My mom was online again and prodded me till I opened it though. And I had my answer: after the introductory I-need-you’s and I-want-you’s, he said that there were two thousand miles between us after all and we both had “commitments and other people”. He said that he knew he was being selfish but he really wanted his best friend back.
I don’t think I have ever cried this hard before. But you know what? When I was done crying, I felt something I hadn’t felt in a couple of years now: a certainty. I asked him to come and he said no. There was nothing to interpret or reinterpret, no question as to what came next. He doesn’t love me the way that I love him. And somehow, I feel differently right now than I did last night. We’re not star crossed lovers, always coming back to each other because we can’t stand to be apart even as life keeps pulling us in different directions. We’re not together because given the choice he made the decision not to be. And it didn’t even take him very long – he sent that email at the exact same time he has been sending his morning emails to me for two years now. Took care of business in time for breakfast.
It hurts like hell, but on the other hand my mental picture of him has changed: he is no longer the unhappy guy in an unhappy marriage that he was –supposedly – manipulated into. He cares about me, but he cares about her more. The unhappy part – what a crock of s*t. You have all said it. I don’t know why, after reading the posts here for a month, I thought that the email I got last night had shown him just how much he can’t live without me. I’m not special, and neither is he. It was an affair, and now it is over. And he is not my scared and confused soul mate. He’s just a guy that wanted it both ways.
@aphrogirl,
“With contact that space is filed up with trying to d.eal with the irrational, the cruel, the wishy washy, the whatever version of distraction you problem child/ AC brings to your table.”
Amen
Oh Butterfly, you seem to see things so clearly. Your ex is a narc, I don’t think mine is, but you know the way you describe him treating you reminds me of how *I* treated my ex the last few (alcohol-influenced) talks I had with him. I put him down (I actually told him he was f***ed at one point, which is language I would rarely use), then apologized next day and told him that some of what I said was “tongue in cheek”. Then, in the last email I sent him (on the last day of the conference) I did tell him he had *some* positive qualities, and that I liked him as a person. So now I am left wondering – am *I* acting in a hurtful, narky way? Or was I just so frustrated by his inertia/ blowing hot and cold/ inability to tell me how he felt/ no plans to leave his wife that I became almost vindictive towards him, and that’s why I said those mean, devaluing things? Sorry, just thinking out loud – I don’t expect anyone else to be able to answer these. But one thing’s for sure, I don’t like the person I am when I’m with him.
Sometimes I wish my ex would be just a little mean to me, like your ex did with you, so I could be more angry with him. Although, I’m sure that hurt you, and I feel badly for you that he did that to you.
I am almost tempted to email him and apologize for putting him down – although I know he has not treated me properly through all of this, I am starting to think that maybe I have had a huge part in how this whole interaction with him played out. He says I am “demanding” because I want him to *express* how he feels. Maybe I misinterpreted his intentions all along. Of course I did – he wanted a fb and I wanted a relationship. He probably “expressed” how he felt just to keep me around – but he insists that he didn’t *want* to develop feelings for me, they just happened and he couldn’t help it. He says he wants a relationship with me no matter what – whether lovers, friends or colleagues – just as long as we have *some* relationship.
OK, I’m getting out of control. I will join in with Angelina again – it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter.
@Aega
Wow -looks like you got some closure!!
“I don’t know why, after reading the posts here for a month, I thought that the email I got last night had shown him just how much he can’t live without me. I’m not special, and neither is he. It was an affair, and now it is over. And he is not my scared and confused soul mate. He’s just a guy that wanted it both ways.”
You have learned a lot in 24 hours!!! I know that must hurt like hell, but wow, you had a lot of guts to send that email (even tho it was breaking NC), and you have your reply.
Thank you for sharing that – I will try to learn from you and NOT email my ex to apologize!!! Hugs to you Aega, many hugs to you
Ohgodohgodohgod… @Meant – my MM said the exact thing to me: he wanted me in his life in any capacity – friend, lover, etc – he just knew he *had to* have me in it somehow. I wish now he showed some cruelty, too, but he won’t. I think that they are afraid to do that. They know that you can cut them down to size if provoked and their ego or sense of insecurity just couldn’t take that.
Aega,
I love your mother! What an amazing woman, and you obviously take after her!
I don’t have my parents anymore, but I sure wish I did.
You were really brave and smart to spell it out to the MM, and even more brave to see the finality in his response.
It is pretty obvious that for most MM, they do want to stay with their wives while having the romantic, exciting relationship with their side-lovers, and while for some women that seems to be enough, I think for most of us, we desire commitment.
The guy I used to be in love with never would give me a definite with his actions. He always said with words: “It’s almost over” “I’ll be with you soon” but it didn’t happen, so I had to be the one to walk away.
You wrote: “It was an affair, and now it is over. And he is not my scared and confused soul mate. He’s just a guy that wanted it both ways.”
It is a painful realization, coming to that conclusion, but it is also the beginning of real healing. Thanks for sharing that story with us.
All: I think there are so many good points in this post and in the comments. What I like about this site, is that people tend to stay away from the negative “bashing” that can be so prevalent in an anonymous venue.
I found this site over a year ago. Man, you’d think I’d be all better by now, but . . . that really isn’t my point. The threads have consistenly been focused on rebuilding, forgiving ourselves, and moving on. I think that is what keeps me coming back.
I am prone to “pining” about him and the what ifs, and the whys, etc. But getting out of his head, going NC, and focusing on me has kept me moving forward. There are slips, and I am not yet to indifference, or some version of something like that, but I am feeling confident to throw out all of the books that I have kept on this topic. I mean, how many times do I need to read that I am addicted and codependent?
Apparently, a lot. I need to shift that energy to rebuilding. And, again, that is why NC is so so so powerful. It isn’t about him. It is about keeping me safe from no more hurt.
While I want a relationship, I’ve got to stay away from them until I heal. There is no point in putting myself or anyone else through this nonsense again.
Thanks to all for sharing your journeys out and your journeys forward.
@Meant,
I have to admit that “mom made me do it”, I don’t think I’d have had the guts to do it on my own (oh yes, the mature 39-year-old in me comes out…)
Don’t apologize. You have nothing to apologize for. Here’s my analogy: you have each been sitting on opposite edges of this huge crevasse, and a pendulum is swinging back and forth between you. You saw each other at the conference, and you allowed for the fact that you still care for him and told him so. You pushed the pendulum over to his side. He characterized your wanting to have a clear dialogue with him as “demading”, which swung the pendulum back into your lap. Well, I say you keep it there. The two of you have been pushing it back and forth between you for so long, he is EXPECTING it to come right back his way. Sure enough, when one person is holding it off to one side there is tension in it and you feel compelled to push it back, keep it swinging. But now think how he is looking at it. You let him back into your life some. He rebuffs your wanting to share a deeper relationship, and he is fully expecting for you to come right back with some kind of reaction or response. Waiting for that pendulum to come swinging back. And then it doesn’t. You are breaking the pattern, doing the exact opposite of what he is expecting. Let him sit there with this thing in his lap trying to think back and analyze what he did wrong this time to have you lose interest in replying.
My MM had me second guessing myself for these past 3 weeks until I put it on the line. His email last night had been an almost pathetic pleading. I responded. But he shrunk back right away and countered with the usual wishy washy, only this time – because I had asked out right – the wishy washy was actually a very unequivocal answer. Now, true to form, he is expecting for me to come back with something reassuring, giving him what he needs without asking too much. Well, he ain’t gettin’ it. After how I opened myself up only a one-way plane ticket would have been the right response; what I got instead doesn’t deserve an answer.
Let him wonder. God know you have for a very long time now. Leave him hanging without explaining why you’re doing it. I have to say that my coming clean made me feel right – I laid my cards open. He left them there, so I’m walking away from the table without further comment. It feels good.
@Lisa,
I am really sorry you don’t have your parents anymore. It breaks my heart that my mom, who has always given me the right advice and kept my confidence, didn’t take care of herself the same way. 4 marriages and not one was happy. She stayed married that last time, but it is just a none-too-peaceful coexistence of two completely different people under one roof. She had so much to offer (I believe stil does) but never saw it. Smart, succesful, drop-dead gorgeous, but the fear of the unknown always kept her back. I’ve given up on pushing her to leave my dad because she is settled into the status quo now. But I take her advice now, because I wouldn’t want to be living out my golden years with my father.
Yes, there was always that promise of “soon” in the air, wasn’t it? I think that these guys marry women that are “safe”. My MM’s wife’s ambition was to have kids and stay home with them and she made that her life. He can profess all he wants that she is bland and lazy (it’s his side of the story, I don’t know that it is true, I never asked or assumed that it was), but apparently it must be what he wanted because he is staying. Long before we had the affair, he used to complain how he never had time for himself because even though his kids were with their grandparents 5 days out of the week he was expected to take care of them the second he came home. That he cooked and cleaned and such while she watched Oprah. That the physical part of their marriage went once the children were born and how he had never been that attracted to her physically all that much and then lost whatever was left after she gained a lot of weight. I think this story was part of why I fell in love: here was this intelligent, dedicated guy with a great sense of humor being used as a meal ticket. Oh yeah I was looking to save…
Aega: “My mother, whose accomplishments and strength of character just make her unhappy marriage to my dad all the more strange, doesn’t mince words and cuts to the chase.”
Wow! You just described my mother, and how I feel about their marriage. Clearly, two people who should have never stayed together. And I do mean never. Their only common bond was religion. Thing is, I could never share this journey with my mother. She would share it with everyone.
Aega and Meant: My MM said the same things: “I just want my best friend back; It won’t be today, it won’t be tommorow, there won’t be immediate leaving, but I will leave; You are being demanding; You are insistent.” etc., etc., etc.
Aega: although I am older than you, in reading your posts, it is as if you were describing my relationship with my EUM. There is some article out there – on the web – about My Married Man is Different.
Isn’t there something that we can do to innoculate women from this very very very destructive dynamic? Even though I am trying to not look back, and only move forward, I do wonder: How in the world did I get here?
Yes, I made choices that I shouldn’t have, yes, I stayed in a place that I should have never been, but, damn! How can we get this info out there before the fact and not after?
“Let him wonder. God know you have for a very long time now. Leave him hanging without explaining why you’re doing it. I have to say that my coming clean made me feel right – I laid my cards open. He left them there, so I’m walking away from the table without further comment. It feels good.”
Very good Aega,by the way you talking about it it shows how much improvement you made.I know it wasnt easy to do what you did and took a lot of courage but it was the best you could do for yourself.No more drama and indecision,now you are ready to move on and find somebody who can give you what you want.
@Anusha – thank you. The indecision is the hardest part, isn’t it?
@Angelina,
It seems as though it’s a lesson we learn for ourselves despite warnings left and right. I have asked myself the same question over and over – how did I get here? I know better and I am better than this. It used to be that if a man sparked some interest in me and I then learned that he was attached in some way that in itself would kill the spark. I could never imagine not only taking another’s woman husband, but also considered myself above becoming somebody’s second pickings. After college I met a guy who was pathologically narcissistic; you wouldn’t have believed the web of lies I had got caught in. When I found out he had lied and cheated, it was as though something inside me turned off. I walked away. When he tried to get me back I told him that he had the wrong girl – I had no use for leftovers.
I don’t know that there is any way of innoculating others before they get burned. Think about the caliber of women that make up the community on this site: with the integrity, insight, and sense of humor all have displayed here it is hard to believe this group would have produced even one “patsy”. I wonder whether after getting through the tough parts in life, knowing that we were strong enough to make it on our own and trusting in our ability to tell right from wrong and smart from stupid we thought we were immune from falling into unhealthy relationships. We all knew the story: boy meets girl, boy marries girl, boy wants more than a girl so boy goes after a woman. But in the end an actual woman is too much for a boy and he is just that – a boy, not a man.
Gloria Steinem said that all men are divided into men, boys and hairdressers (and not meaning sexual orientation by it), and all women are either women or girls. I think that there are more women than men out there.
@meant – I am calling my ex Narky cos it amuses me to … no darling you are not a narc … far far far from it and don’t you dare mail him! x
Aega
It strikes me that the the guy is really not so happy in his version of relationship with anyone. Having it both ways is what worked for him, he knows it’s selfish, but his fantasy version of happy with you is emo-lite and it’s probably the same in his unhappy marriage. Can’t commit and work to make it good with the wife, nor with you, I suspect he is bound to be unhappy.
I am not sure he is actively “choosing” her, rather he is too cowardly to really examine his own life and his commitments to his own happiness. I would bet that he is a rather cowardly, scared man-child who got off on the fantasy of being with you until you asked him to completely confront it and drop the fantasy. You made the fantasy real, and that may be something he cannot maturely face.
By not saying something a helluva lot more meaningful than he did he slunk into avoidance of full on emotional integrity. He could have explained that his choice was to stay because of kids and marriage commitment, that he was going to try to become an emotionally intelligent man, that he was going to try like hell to have a truly fulfilling relationship with his family.
And, if he was emotionally intelligent he would have the insight and resulting empathy to realize he had led you on with his confusion, his dishonest wordsand the fact that maybe he really wanted to be brave and honest and deep and clear but… he is none of those things.
Regardless, I am so sorry, this is a hard thing to hear and I do know how you feel. And yes, Mom’s advice was right on. It was so important for you to spell it out, to be clear, to make sure you were not some version of EU all along, and that is the reason it never worked out. All the more reason for us to be clear and direct and opt out asap with anyone showing signs of ambiguity who is not able to confront the wishy washiness.
Nothing much is harder than experiencing a person whom you loved, trusted and believed in make the choice to not try to love and believe in you in return.
And all these songs… not for nothing, but I hardly listen to radio ever, I never really understood all the tortured unrequited love songs that seem to dominate the airwaves until the indecisive EUM.
But, indecisive love is bit of a silly kind of unrequited love. I am now so sure that real and strong love is a sure thing, no wondering is involved. And whether unrequited love happens with EU moms, dads, friends or lovers – the unrequited love of people who can or will not try is a universal heart wrenching condition that most people experience at some point in their lives. Of course, the fact that its pretty universal does not make it much easier.
So now you know what you are recovering from….a con artist of the heart. Part of the recovery is we have to look at how we let ourselves be conned. Big hearts, big dreams,strong faith and trust in others goodness… these are not bad things but learning how to live with them and knowing how to really evaluate others worthiness is a part of our journey.
Thanks, aphrogirl, I just logged back in and saw your post. Despite the official closure (because I do have it, there is no more question of what-if) it’s hard to swallow how fast he ran when I said what I did.
It’s ironic that you said, ” he knows it’s selfish”, because after he brought up the commitments to other people he actually wrote that verbatim before telling me he wanted his best friend back.
One of the reasons that I keep my ideal of love that’s equally deep to both people alive is that over the years I have seen so many of my male friends go through the same hurts and disappointments as women do. When a man professes to feel this much, I believe it. This episode is not going to change my fundamental belief that most people are good, even if many make mistakes that hurt others. I am however questioning my judgement. Why didn’t I see that only one of us was playing for keeps?
The end of indecision and ambiguity leaves room for grief. In a way I hurt more now than I did over some of our more elaborate “endings”. This is it. As I’m sitting here bawling, however (oh yes, knowing that I did the right thing doesn’t change how much of a loss this is to me), one thing is different: I don’t wish that he were here to comfort me. Those fantastic hugs? They meant so much because I thought that they were coming from someone who loved me as much as I did him. I don’t want him to call me up and try to take back what he said. The person I would have given anything to keep does not exist. All of you here, on the other hand, are very much real. The support you are giving me right now is heartfelt and it means more than you can imagine. I know that I’ve been a fool but it hurts so much anyway and I am grateful to be able to tell it to someone that doesn’t write it off as significant.
Think I’m gonna go now paint me some headless chicks… 😐
oops, thinking faster than typing – that would be ‘insignificant’, not ‘significant’…
@meant my email is playing up can you mail me!!!!
my heart goes out to all that have posted here with regard to being involved with an EUM. i to was in all of your shoes until one day i got enough of his BS sent him one final email and put NC in place for good. this all took place a little under 3 months ago.
does it still hurt to know i had to let go of someone who i deeply cared for? sure it does. i also know that time takes care of a lot of things and it will take care of this too.
one thing that i have learned about being involved with this type of man is they do erode at your self worth over time. they love to be in control and when you finally put your foot down and mean what you say and stick to your guns and begin to regain your power back they don’t like this. it makes them feel out of control.
the other thing i noticed about these men is that no matter how much you threaten to leave,no matter how many angry emails,text messages you send etc.. they always seem to know that it’s only hot air being blown around and with enough time for you to cool down they know it won’t be all that diffulcult to win you over once again.
it all happened to me as to the reason i can speak about it now. i would literally curse this man out call him every bane i could think of tell him i never wanted to ever see him again and guess what happenened? he would allow however much time to pass(ie usually 2-6 months) and then the email would come and the vicious cycle would repeat itself all over again.
he knew that no matter what he did,no matter how angry i got that i would always take him back. this was the pattern that i set in place with him and why should he change something that was working for him.
this is why i have done what i did for the final time. i refuse to have any more contact with this man. he is very toxic and will continue to drag me deeper into the pit of despair if i continue to see him.
will he attempt to contact me? who knows but his behavior pattern says that he will when things in his mind have cooled down. in the meantime i have blocked all the ways of him getting to me outside of him coming to my house.
i doubt any of what i have set in place will deter him guys like this always seem to find a way around what we do. this one is no different.
at least for now i feel better knowing that at least for the time being i have bought myself some time to heal with having NC in place.
@ G,
I apologize for sounding harsh. Your message was a bit frightening to me.
It seems we have very different meanings for some things. When I read No Contact, on this web site, it means something quite permanent and specific. NC means you have done everything you could to block someone’s ability – not just permission, but all avenues of technology and social contacts – to contact you.
For me a red flag is a warning indicator, something that offsets something about someone I find attractive. Each red flag means that I will not consent to any kind of significant relationship until that red flag is resolved – to my satisfaction.
But there are levels of warnings. At a certain point, I really don’t care about answers, explanations, or anything further – I hit a boundary. A boundary is a very powerful concept. There are certain neighborhoods that outsiders don’t enter, and there are certain people and behaviors that we avoid from the same reasons – it isn’t safe for us. One of my boundaries is that the other person has an existing attachment. She is married? Poof. That is a boundary I will not cross. She is going with someone else? Poof – she is shopping around, or using dating for mere social recreation – and I don’t care to play the games, nor dare to waste time being entangled myself, where nothing good can come of it. If she is entangled, that takes me out of being available – in case someone worthwhile for me were to come along.
I meant to say, that your ex is a known “unsafe” person for you. He doesn’t get to make another first impression, he never gets to leave his past behind, and his past is pretty much a boundary that I would never consider changing for him.
I never meant to be harsh, just to be clear that I see nothing good coming from your contacting him, from your worrying about what he is doing or thinking now, or from your even knowing he tried to call, or email, or text, or whatever.
Blessed be.
.-= Brad K.´s last blog ..A theme song for the EUM cycle =-.
Aega- Yes indecision is the worst part,so be glad you finaly out from that.
Im a bit nostalgic for the EUM right now,wondering if he still thinks about me or misses me (I know,I know,it doesnt matter and that actualy came to my mind when I started thinking about it).I have said to myself that I wouldnt try to figure him out anymore,I did that all my relationship with him so I wont do it now anymore.You wont believe all the mental energy I spent trying to understand why he did this or said that or if he realy loved me or not,it is exausting.So I decided to use this site to try to figure ME out from now on.But I cant help to keep wondering about his last text(the one about 2 months ago congratulating me for my team winning).Why he did that? I mean we havent talked for 2 months and I not even care about soccer,so isnt like that was important to me.Even though he didnt send anything more after that I realy think that he had other intentions behind it.I dont know what was exactaly but I guess he was testing me to see how I would react with his contact.It was his birthday a month before that text and for the first time ever since I meet him I didnt wish him happy birthday and been those 2 months NC so he probably was surprised by all that and wondering if I had moved on and then decided to check.Like NML says when they fell there is a big evidence that he might be losing you they reach out again to make sure you stay invested even if they dont want to be with you.At least that is what I think it happened,dont you think? And I see now that I shouldnt have answered,I know it was just a “thank you” but I think that for him maybe that was the confirmation that I was still invested that he was after.Anyway at least I know now if he texts me again is better to just ignore it.
Wow!! this has really hit home!!! It was like you were there! There I was with my ex-EUM…I had morphed into this version of what I thought that he wanted and yet repeatedly he kept putting across to me in subltle yet humiliating ways that I STILL was not enough for him and not the woman for him…yet at the same time, kept saying that he loved me… Its not that I really wanted him to begin with but I needed to know that he did want me and that I was enough, perfect and great the way that I was. I clung onto the memories of the way he treated like gold to begin with, before the mental and emotional abuse began.I remember getting isolated and feeling so alone.I though I would die without him cos I felt I had no one else who understood or knew me, but I got the strength from God to split up with him and now I am close with my family and friends and have been slowly letting them know what happened;and they are horrified. So never again will I go back there…I have began to find out what I want and like and need and so far the journey has been amazing, albeit scary…lol .Thanks to all you wonderful strong women and NML for the support when it gets tough!! At least I know there are people that really understand! hugs to all xoxoxoxo
Anusha, I think it’s an ego boost for him. Something we may have been guilty of in junior high – you know, the cute guy that everybody said liked you, but you never even noticed before? Didn’t you ever flash him your dazzling 12-year-old smile just to see him blush even though you didn’t sit by him at lunch? And blush he did, so you probaby smiled at him a few more times again even though you never did sit by him at lunch. You may have smiled a little brighter if he started paying attention to someone else, too.
The thing is that a certain amount of preteen cruelty went with pig-tails, but we grew out of both. So don’t give someone who is still stuck in junior high the satisfaction of replying to his little teasers. You’ve called his bluff before and he couldn’t muster much of an adult response to your adult approach. You know how at a club cheesy guys sometimes try to hit on you with the lamest of lines? And you roll your eyes and don’t bother to reply? It may not be their fault for not knowing how to sustain normal social interaction but neither are you obligated to put up with it. You’ve got better things to do.
Meant to be happy,
Don’t apologize. During the whole back and forth faze I had with my EUM, who I thought was the best thing that ever happened since sliced bread, I would say hurtful things after I had been hurt and then apologize. He treated me so awful sometimes and did so many hurtful things and never once apologized for any of his behavior. The last thing I ever said to him was that he was pretty much the most awful person I ever met. I was so tempted to apologize but knew that for my sanity and dignity I couldn’t; the truth is that he IS the most horrible human being that I have ever met. You say that your married EUM has not said any mean things to you, but he has used you. Plain and simple. He has not just “not treated you properly,” he has treated you horribly. That whole “I want you in my life in any way I can have you” is such a standard thing for these idiots to say. It doesn’t mean that he thinks your wonderful or special. I’m sorry, it doesn’t mean that at all. It means that he thinks your standards are so f*cking low that you’ll let his cheating, adulterous, immoral ass stay in your life. He is this awful creature, and you don’t seem to see it. There is NOTHING special about him. He took vows, made promise to be faithful, but he doesn’t have the capacity to be a person of his word. He doesn’t have the guts to stay and be faithful or leave his wife so she can undoubtedly find someone ten times better than this jackass. It wouldn’t be hard. I don’t mean to be harsh, but I hate seeing us women keep doing this to themselves. Please don’t apologize. He doesn’t deserve it, and you deserve more than to lower yourself to apologize for saying something that was probably true and something he probably already knows about his sorry self.
@Butterfly, Aega, Angelina, etc
I haven’t read all posts here yet, but I read some suggesting I not email him. I am now in a mini-crisis 🙁
I didn’t email, but I saw him on MSN while reading here a little while ago. I asked how he was, then asked his understanding of how we left things. He said “we agreed to be lifelong friendsâ€, which is a joke because I never said that. I asked him to be serious, and he said – I thought we were trying to “cool it†but then our flesh was weak. So I asked him if he was in agreement that we should “end things†anyway, then he said – “I don’t want to say end things, just to chill and reflect for a while. Then, if through some twist of fate our circumstances change, we can reconsider.†I replied that sounded like FWB, but then he suddenly went offline (I knew his wife was nearby), so I offline messaged him to ask for an email to explain what he just said (he is SO vague sometimes).
That is NOT how I wanted things to go. I have now asked him to contact me via email, and the ball is in his court – he has the pendulum Aega! Any ideas how to get it back? Should I email him and say – don’t bother explaining – we are done?? Bloody hell, this is painful!!!
gee i feel like i am with you and your ending agea, and everyone else, and it just brings back mine, and thats not a bad thing. I am packing for a spur of the moment canoe trip, have done nothing for vacation for me all summer, me and the dog will head out for a few days, like a vision quest.
i sorta feel like i have been in a room with y’alls this past week, and writing and reading and knowing i was being heard and understood has helped me so much, good days ahead everyone, while i am communing with nature I will think of you and other people everywhere who are hurting, and breathe in to take in and release some of that collective pain for us all,
namaste, as we all work to be our best
Vague is bad. Vague is non-committal. Vague keeps us wondering. Vague doesn’t give us permanence. Vague leaves all kinds of room for misinterpretations.
“Someday” “Soon” “Maybe” “Perhaps” “In the future” “If” are all words that I heard over and over and I used to cling to them, but none of them really meant anything.
Meant, you don’t deserve vague. You deserve clarity. You’ll get through this. It is hard seeing the guy we love for what he really is, but it is also the beginning of a stronger you.
Hang in there.
lisa,
Thanks,yes, vague is bad – that’s why I reflexively asked for the email to explain. But to be honest, I don’t think any explanation he gives will be satisfying. Even if he says he’s going to reflect on whether or not to leave his wife for me, I don’t want him as a life partner any more. I am in the middle of composing an email to him that hopefully will put me back in control of this (and tell him it’s not necessary to explain himself). After all, I *was* the one who broke up with him in the first place – I can just reiterate that we’re still through, and that I don’t want him back, even though I may seem to have asked for his input into that decision earlier.
Then hopefully I will have the strength to start NC tomorrow. day 1. I want to feel peaceful again.
@Meant,
I’d say stay mum. Someone said here in an earlier post that these guys cannot commit to being with you but neither can they commit to letting you go (I know I’m taking great liberties with paraphrasing here and my apologies in advance to the person I may be misquoting).
Well, it’s cowardly, like aphrogirl said. Here’s something that made it easier for me not to respond to his last “offering of everlasting friendship” (humm, Apathy may be over after all – I think I just didn’t recognize Bitter when it showed up as Sarcastic…) For days now he’s been hanging out on MSN, changing that silly little line next to his picture, changing his picture, too. In fact the last avatar is of that kid from Southpark being shot in the head. Classy, ay? Yesterday he was on when I logged in and never left till I logged out. Granted, he’s two hours behind but I’m an early riser and a night owl both – he must have been on there for a good 16 hours. Then he sends the pleading email. I respond at what is the middle of the night for him and – surprise, surprise – he never logs in before his last half-assed reply and stays off all day. Not that there was any chance of me coming back with some kind of retraction or asking for more because I am the queen of “I don’t want to talk about it” and he knows it. Just in case, though – not a peep.
I can’t respect someone that can’t look me in the (electronic) eye when I tell him how I feel. Neither should you. So you asked him for an email. So what? It’s not like you siad you had packed your bags and are waiting to move in. If he sends you an email, fine. If he doesn’t, oh well. Don’t let him know that you are sitting here replaying your last conversation with him, looking for nuances, and hoping for an answer that matters. It’s your turn to disappear. Let him wonder what happened. Let him think that you just forgot about the whole thing.
I know what you mean about wanting to feel peaceful again. My relative peace didn’t really get disrupted by all his attempts to get in touch, rather by responding to one. After I sent that last email, I was afraid to open my inbox. I hate that wormy feeling in my stomach.
The pendulum is yours right now. Just keep it there and don’t tell him how much it hurts.
@aphrogirl
My dog and I are officially jealous… Stay safe on your trip and should the Great Spirit say anything meaningful about difficult men, be sure to take notes. I want you to know that the insight you gave me in your earlier post meant more than you can imagine. For all our stabs at strength and/or cavalier attitude that fact is that this has been one of – if not the most – painful stages in our lives. But they all came on the heels of loving someone so very very much and when we talk about all the hurt that person has caused us it’s easy to villify him. That feeling of love, however, doesn’t just disappear just because the object of it proved to be a coward or a liar or just plain lost. What you said to me carried so much compassion; I didn’t have to feel like a fool for having been so wrong. Just wanted to tell you how much I appreciated that. Y’all’s good people, aphrogirl 🙂
Meant to Be Happy: Here’s what I think the “real deal” is. Having gone through this myself, but still not over it.
The relationship with this man will not be over until you, and only you, decide it is done. He cannot/will not make the decision, so you have to. Remember, his ambivalence makes you ambivalent(sp), which reinforces his . . . And on and on it goes. You cannot be friends with people who can’t give. It’s that simple.
That said, if you want to stay on a roller coaster, merry-go-round, gravity drop, ride – simultaneously – then stay involved. I am not being sarcastic and I am not being smug. Either way, you hurt. Staying involved is never ending hurt to you. If he was that uncomfortable in his marriage, he would leave. This is 2009. The stigma of divorce is no longer what it was.
Again, so I don’t appear to be a hypocrite or condescending, I am not over “my guy”, and it has been 16 months. However, I no longer cry everyday. Do I wonder if he misses me? Yes. Do I wonder if he ever will get himself out of that relationship? Yes. But, again, it doesn’t matter. Whenever I start to ask these questions, the answer is always the same: He is married. He is married. He is married. Until he changes that MAJOR aspect of his life and gets himself emotionally healthy – it doesn’t matter. If wishing and hope made it so, that would have happened a long time ago. Yes, it sucks.
I have to retrain my brain. When I was in contact with him, it hurt.
Being out of contact with him hurts as well, but it is a different kind of hurt. A hurt that is more healthy for me, in the long run. When I realized that almost three years of my life had passed and nothing had changed, I had to ask myself, “How long am I willing to put myself through this crap?”
Brad K. did a really good job of explaining NC some topics ago, but basically, NC is to protect you. It isn’t about closure – there will be none. If he is truly EUM – he always leaves the door open for him to come back. It keeps him in control. If he is NPD – run away; there is no hope for a healthy relationship.
If you can find yourself happy to be on the fringes of his life, then stay. If you can’t, then go. You do not owe him an explanation, nor do you have to feel guilty. He is living his life. Are you?
Hi all,
I haven’t posted in some time, but I’ve been reading (always reading; that’s just the name of the grad student game) and cheering on the sidelines for those of you who have recently had to face your ex or have had some form of (_crap_) communication from him.
I told my story several posts ago, but the thing about my very weird situation/LDR was that, even on my way out when I was telling (and finally _meaning_) that it was over, he was still leaving the door open (told me to contact him if I’m ever in Russia. As I told a friend, am I really going to call somebody up I would be tempted to ask: “Hey, remember that time you told me human interaction was important to everybody…?” No way; meeting up with people from the past means recalling the good times and our good times have been tainted). In fact, I’m sure I could email him today, right now even, and in a few hours I’d have not only a response, but again be mired in the same bullsh@%/wishy-washy behavior.
I agree with Angelina’s point about how only we can decide whether we’re going to engage with them or not. Really, I think the best way to think about this is to picture a hotel room with a door that connects to the next room. In these situations, to protect the safety of the people inhabiting both rooms, each occupant has a door and the option of keeping that door locked to protect their safety. In the case of the EUM/narc/unfeeling dog with the emotional range of a tree stump–men who have no endings and couldn’t make a decision if their life depended on it– the door is always open…well, maybe it’s better to say unlocked since we all know they’re plenty good at shutting us out whenever they want. And the problem with us is that we don’t think they’re a real danger (or we didn’t really grasp that fact until it was way too late), so we leave/left our doors not only unlocked, but wide open! Now that we’re wiser and stronger (and we are) we need to lock that door, buy and use a deadbolt and even possibly shove some furniture up against it for good measure…because that’s the only way they’re going to stay out.
And I’ve been there, reluctant to do these necessary and seemingly cruel (especially to us as we care too much)..I kept the guy on my gchat list, on skype and on facebook until a month after I ended communication with him. Obviously I did it because I was still hoping against hope that he would come to his senses (to admit this makes me feel somewhat ashamed, but I know you can all relate. It’s hard to let go, but we’re capable of this and they’re not. So, sadly the burden of all of the responsibility falls to us; after all, the emotional investment was all ours to begin with), but he didn’t. But I did. Delete and block.
I wish I could say he never even crosses my mind, but he occasionally does…but I’m so much happier without him; he’s definitely becoming an afterthought. I sleep well, I’ve lost weight (in a good and healthy way), I’ve returned to my old hobbies and created new ones (the LDR and the 11 hour time difference took up a lot of time)…And I never again have to worry about getting an email from him. I so sympathized with Aega’s feeling of terror when faced with an email from him after a soul-baring confession…I hate that feeling, but I really think that feeling says it all; it’s our gut telling us what we knew all along, warning us that it’s just going to confuse and/or make us unhappy.
@Meant
I don’t think I need to add anything to what Angelina has said except for this, and it is tough love:
“The relationship with this man will not be over until you, and only you, decide it is done. He cannot/will not make the decision, so you have to. Remember, his ambivalence makes you ambivalent(sp), which reinforces his . . . And on and on it goes. You cannot be friends with people who can’t give. It’s that simple.
That said, if you want to stay on a roller coaster, merry-go-round, gravity drop, ride – simultaneously – then stay involved.”
You DO know what you have to do. You’re going through the worst part now really. The denial has kicked back in – hey, you’re at the point when I was starting to believe I was wrong and that it would all come around (my mirage wasn’t married). I’d told him never again but remembered the little sadnesses he had and I’d tear myself to bits. If I could go back in time and talk to myself I’d SHAKE myself and I know this is behaviour I have picked up from him and other Narcs but actually in this case I can sort of understand.
You know the answer very well, and that answer is to write him a FINAL EMAIL saying well I think it’s time we agreed that we are work colleagues and that is it. It’s unprofessional to carry on as we are. I value you greatly and I don’t think we should compromise either of our careers.” Nothing emotional. Nothing of how you feel. Block him and remove him from MSN, any personal mails. NO CONTACT.
If you don’t do this, YOU are carrying on the endless spiral down, and down it will always be even if the miracle happens and he leaves his wife. You’d be next in line for it. Angelina is right, they never ever ever ever ever ever close the door and you shouldn’t feel bad about doing it because their flippy flappy behaviour damages you whilst they have a wife who is either oblivious or complicit or suffering right there at hand to care for his every need, clean and iron his clothes, cook him food, provide him with sex comfort and a warm body every night that he is there. His wife might be aware and was crying her heart out as you were snuggling with him – his wife very likely buys that cologne that smells so good on him and is one of the tenuous links that bind you.
In the meanwhile you are eating your heart out and blocking any chance of living. Look again at the subject of this post… remember how strong you felt before and take this action now before you fall again because each time you fall back into the pattern it hurts and damages you more. Plus … do you REALLY really think you are the only one this man has dangling on a string? How many other women, who have not seen this site yet, are in the same boat?
@neveragain – hi there! Sorry that you’ve been through this rubbish too, yet again you have written words that could almost have been the words of my mirage “man”.
Meant: Boy, I do not envy you.
You had written that you hope to be at peace again.
If you do decide that you are finished, and for good, but you still, in your heart and your head have “hope”, it will be a painful ride.
You are leaving someone you loved. Maybe he loved you, maybe he didn’t. His ambivalence puts you and him on that pendulum.
The withdrawl will hurt. It will hurt like nothing has ever hurt before.
I went NC, not because I was over him, but because I no longer wanted the pain. Just know that there is a difference.
As Brad K. says, “Luck.”
@Angelina
I think personally that the hardest thing about it all is that no one knows what it is like unless they have been through it, and if they have been through it then they will sympathise but maybe do what I am doing i.e. trying to emphasise to get off the ride whilst knowing how hard and painful it was: wanting to minimise the pain for others. Yet everyone has their own way out of this mess and the time is different for each of us.
Again, meant, Angelina has said it all perfectly.
@Meant — “then he said – ‘I don’t want to say end things, just to chill and reflect for a while. Then, if through some twist of fate our circumstances change, we can reconsider.’â€
Twist of fate?????!!!!!! Get real A-Clown!! This AC is pinning everything between you and he on fate which is completely outside of his control and responsibility and it sounds oh so romantic. It’s NOT!! What he does with regard to his relationship with you and his relationship with his wife is completely within his control, not some fated destiny of a romance novel and he knows it!! This is absolute BS that he can’t possibly believe unless his mental capacity parallels that of a salamander. Now that you’ve found the strength to set some boundaries, his true colors are really starting to show now aren’t they. I know its painful. The pain is in coming out of our anesthesia and seeing them for who they truly are instead of remaining in the fantasy world of what we throught and wanted them to be. Hang in there Meant, it will get easier. I promise it will.
^5s Serena x
Serena:
What does ^5s Serena x mean? I don’t quite yet understand cyberspeak.
Anyway . . .
I totally understand that each person has to come at this in their own way. I had stated in an earlier post on this topic that I kind of “fell” onto the concept of NC. Meaning that my intuition guided me there, and it was after finding this site and another site -devoted to healing and moving on – that I really understood the concept of NC. And the Steven Carter/Julia Sokol book: He’s Scared;She’s Scared.
I literally started to begin to think that I was crazy. How could someone, who I thought made me feel so good, have me in tears all of the time? It was the ambiguity, but I didn’t know that. All I knew is that I was sick of the “push-pull” dynamic that existed from the very beginning. When he first started flirting with me, it went no where. But yet, he upped and upped the flirtation. Anything to put him on my radar. But when I responded, he did a 180 and was distant – avoided eye contact, no smiling, no, “Hellos.” So, I then stopped interacting, and he would be nice again.
Even to this day, I somewhat sympathize with him (I know. I know. Crazy!), because if he has to live with that every single day and in every single encounter (push-pull; “I don’t know”; equivocation) it has got to be maddening. It just has to.
How can one stand it? That’s when I started to really “hear” what he was saying about other areas of his life. Everything about him screamed equivocation. Everything. And, when I was going through a really difficult time, he couldn’t/wouldn’t put out two minutes worth of effort to help me. It’s sort of like he knew that I was bleeding on the street, but he was able to walk, no run home, because he might have to stand up to her for being late.
As for me, what was I thinking? He was married. I mean, is there any more blatant of a red flag? In the end, I realized that if she put up with that crap for all of these years, then she had patience I didn’t, or she had control of him in a way that I would never be able to compete with. And, I never ever wanted anyone who didn’t want me.
So how did I get here? How did I go there? I think, it doesn’t matter anymore. What matters is getting out and staying out.
He was married. For God’s sake, how in the world did I even venture there? Talk about isolation. There are only three people who know of this, and two of the three had it figured out – they had been down this slippery slope – themselves.
I have a lot of things that I need to work out, in order to get myself healthy, and get over beating myself up. I am tired of carrying the responsibility of the whole thing. He was right there!
That’s the thing. He won’t carry his share, and so I have to. All of the phone calls and face to face discussions just had him saying, “I don’t know. I don’t know.” Something as simple as, “I’m sorry that I hurt you,” would have provided me some modicum of relief.
But, I will never get the closure that I want. Never. It isn’t going to happen. As Aega said, “I wasn’t that special. It was an affair. It is over.”
I was never going to be happy living that way. He would have kept me hanging on for years. Two half lives don’t make a full life.
So, what I’m trying to say to Meant is that she might be able to accept being the other woman. There are many out there who have.
There are many wives who know of the situation and accept it. There are many another woman who accept it. In fact, I know of several of those relationships. I do not judge. It just isn’t for me.
Thank you all
@Debbie – “the other thing i noticed about these men is that no matter how much you threaten to leave,no matter how many angry emails,text messages you send etc.. they always seem to know that it’s only hot air being blown around and with enough time for you to cool down they know it won’t be all that diffulcult to win you over once again.†– yes, I think I have unwittingly taught my ex this very thing. Darn! And he’s playing it cool by saying “I only ask for your (lifelong) friendship – no demands, no promises†Yeh, like that’s gonna make me melt – I’m looking for a relationship, and he wants a whole lot of nothing!!! Kinda sounds like indifference, doesn’t it?
@jupiter – got it. I will not send the apology I have written. He has said some mildly mean things to me, well, maybe more sarcastic, like “oh, is this where I’m supposed to beg you not to leave?†and “you are prodding me to get me to express my feelingsâ€. But sure, overall, he has treated me horribly where it counts – in his non-commitment to me. He has only been “sweet†and “caring†regarding relatively minor things.
@aphrogirl – enjoy your canoe trip!! And thanks for all your wonderful input here!
@Aega – by the time I read your post, I had already composed a long email, outlining how I thought we got into our situation, how we both felt, and some of the problems we have had (including not being able to commit to being with each other or without each other). It was full of thanks and apologies, and suggestions that in the future we only talk about “neutral†topics like work or the hobbies we share. You said “Don’t let him know that you are sitting here replaying your last conversation with him, looking for nuances, and hoping for an answer that matters.†– that makes sense! I haven’t yet sent that email I composed, although it really helped to clarify things for me, and it’s still in my draft folder. BTW, when you sent that last email to your MM, what would you have done if he’d said he was packing his bags and coming to be with you? Were you going to leave your husband for him? If so, I think I underestimated the way you feel about him. You must have *very* strong feeling for him to be willing to end your marriage for him. Wow.
@Angelina – “If you can find yourself happy to be on the fringes of his life, then stay. If you can’t, then go. You do not owe him an explanation, nor do you have to feel guilty. He is living his life. Are you?†No, I am not happy to be on the fringes. I am not living my life to the fullest, and I’m beginning to resent that. I know I can withstand the hurt of NC for 5 weeks, so surely I can survive longer than that. I just need to get back to that space again where I know it’s what I need, where I know it’s the only thing that will take away the AC hurt. I am not over him, but I no longer want the pain.
“Everything about him screamed equivocation.†– oh, can I relate here, too. He once wrote “My life lacks many things (mostly you) but there is too much going on right now for major renovations. Perhaps one day I will act to make my life better.†Can you believe that?
“He won’t carry his share, and so I have to. All of the phone calls and face to face discussions just had him saying, “I don’t know. I don’t know.†Something as simple as, “I’m sorry that I hurt you,†would have provided me some modicum of relief.†– YES, YES, YES!! And no, this relationship based on infidelity is NOT for me – I just have to extract myself from it (again, after breaking NC).
@Wised_up – “I think the best way to think about this is to picture a hotel room with a door that connects to the next room.†Oh my goodness, what a relevant analogy for me!!! The first time my ex and I got together, we were at one of our conferences (June 2008) and happened to have doors just as you described. We had been flirting for a year, had exchanged many suggestive emails, and couldn’t believe that “fate†had provided us with adjoining rooms. We both opened our doors, and thus our affair began. When I saw him this last week, he said “my door is always open for you†(although our actual rooms were on different floors this time – but of course he was talking about his “relationship†door). You suggested “we need to lock that door, buy and use a deadbolt and even possibly shove some furniture up against it for good measure…†– that sounds like good advice, although I doubt my ex would try *too* hard to get in if he saw the door closed. He’s kinda sneaky that way – he doesn’t come on like a ton of bricks; he suggests, plants seeds, positions himself close to where I am – all quite subtle really. Still, the deadbolt wouldn’t hurt, I’m sure. I’m glad you can relate to all this hesitation on my part to let him go, even though I know he is bad for me.
@Butterfly – thanks so much for your email. I will respond soon, after I get this sorted. “his wife very likely buys that cologne that smells so good on him and is one of the tenuous links that bind you†– you know, I have had this thought too since when I asked him the name of it he didn’t know – of course she bought it (she or some other woman, which he would adamantly deny). I am keeping my first email in the draft folder, and will begin a new, “final†email, along the lines you suggested, to actually send to him.
@Serena – yes, I recoiled at the “twist of fate†line too – that’s why I asked for an explanation – but YOU have just explained it perfectly so I don’t need him to! Thank you!
I am off to compose that new and improved (thanks to all of you) email to my ex…
Love and gratitude for all the wonderful women here
Meant xo
Meant: Why send an email at all?
@Angelina – it will help me to reorient myself to a “just work” relationship with him, and take away the feeling of “needing” that explanation of his last MSN message before he logged off suddenly. It will prevent me from checking my email every 10 minutes to see if he wrote, as I will ask him specifically *not* to email (whereas right now, I have asked him to email).
I have composed the new email and saved it in my drafts. I will send it tomorrow, as it’s 1:30 am here, and I don’t want him to know I’ve been thinking about him till the wee hours of the morning, especially since I have to work tomorrow.
I can see why you would suggest not sending anything, but feel this is the way it will work best for me.
Thanks again for all your insight, sharing and help. You really have given me so much strength to get through this. xo
oh, and the new email is 3 lines, instead of about 50 🙂
MUCH better 🙂 I am glad I sent a final mail. It was very short too and the main point “what a shame you couldn’t have been honest with me” was as near to closure as I’m gonna get. I know he mailed me twice after that and I don’t really care to know what it said, would just have been hurtful anyway so …
@wisedup hi honey meant to say hello before, good to see you 🙂 missed ya!
meant. sending an email is fine if it seems right,nad esp in your circumstance since you will see him again, but I found it’s not exactly like closure, it’s only the first step to getting out of the unsatisfying relationship,
the email is, in essence, clearly states to him..that you sincerely this time realize you have had enough, leave me alone, plan to leave me alone, it is different now, something has changed, we will not be in touch or together as before, no personal contact is desired
remeber you really are doing him a favor too, at the least you stop approving of and enabling his EU ways
and then you will have really begun NC, it’s conditioning to think that maybe this putting of the foot down will somehow make him transform, it’s conditioned fairytale stuffs, i am not saying it never happens, or as my therapist said, with a laugh, well miracles do happen sometimes i suppose
but really miracles are rare and wonderful and special things, and to expect them for things like this, making a man, seem maybe not quite appropriate or something. besides men have to do their own work and not expect divine intervention to be EU
ol i am packed and having checked in here am now off to reflect on these and many other things,
be good to yourselves and everyone else
@ Serena – I am replying to your post on the 21st, I am a bit behind with reading all the posts !!
I could not agree more with you !! You are exactly right. I have been married to a Narcissist and what your are describing in your post is exactly what he did. In order to controll me and everything going on around me, he was inserting himself in every aspect of my life too. At the same time he tried to isolate me from my friends and family so I would lose my social network and completely rely on him.
He did NOT succeed, because I left. I would never cut off my family and friends (people I have known for over 25 years) for anyone. But as Serena says, those narcisstic men make the choices for you !!!
I believe that there are 4 different forms of men – EUM’s, Assclowns, Dominators (some of them narcisstic) and NORMAL guys !!!
@ Leonine – just read your post from the 22nd and the same to you – you are totally right, exactly the same with my Ex-Narc. Couldn’t agree more !!
I also had relationships with EUM and Assclown and compared with my marriage to the Narcissist, there were a piece of cake.
When you are with a Narcissist you are fighting for your life every day. You can never let your guard down and you never know what’s coming next. It is about survival ! Example – we were driving in the country side, he is asking “ever been here before ?” Me having a panick attack. If I say “yes” he would have a fit, because he suspects me being here with an ex-byfriend – if I say “No” he would have a fit, because he would accuse me of lying. I might not survive this drive….. luckily I did.
You could compare it with witchhunt in the middle ages. They put the witch in water, if she drowned she was innocent, if she swam she was guilty and they burnt her to death.
These men will always find a way to get to us. This is why it is so very important to do what you can to prevent this and remain with NC for your own well being. Just like the saying “a leporad never changes it’s spots” these men will never change either.
Will the EUM I was involved with try to get in touch one day? I am quite certain he will. They always come back to where they know they can get away with their BS.
I know for me I have had enough and the more time and distance I put between me and this fool man the better off I’ll be in the long run.
Aega- I agree with you,I guess it was a ego boost for him.But what I dont get is why bother to text me about something I not even care much and after two months not speaking to each other? It doesnt make much sense right? Dont you think it seems like if was checking to see if I was still invested? He was always doing those crazy stuff.Right after we broke up I said to him that I had a few things to ask about the break up and if we could do it on emails,he agreeded to it but didnt answer me until 3 weeks later.In the meantime I texted him and sent another email asking why he havent replied or when he would reply that he just ignored and after 3 weeks when I was even starting to think that he wouldnt answer anymore he did.I didnt send anything back(I was pissed off with him making me wait 3 weeks for a answer and had decided to just send something back after 3 weeks too) and 10 days later he starts texting me everyday.See how crazy all that is? He seems to not want contact and then later on he seems to want it,is very confusing.I guess it is the ambivalent personality of the EUMs.
I think, for me, the main difference was that EU worked on my emotions; Narc worked on the very fibre of my Being – my soul? Mind? Anything to re-shape me to what he needed to get his feed – Narcissistic Supply. Good or Bad, he fed. What he couldn’t take was Indifference: NC killed him stone dead (except for his pathetic attempts to troll me online or send batches of malicious phone calls, which still continue to this day).
By comparison, EU was a doddle for me to jettison because, I believe, I’d lived through much, much, much worse and had no intention of doing it again!
And this is where NML’s writings have been a God send to me: the more I’ve read her work, the more I’ve come to believe that these men came around me because they could smell some kind of weakness in me.
That’s not to say I’m to “blame” or at “fault”. I take no responsibility for their viles actions and attitudes. But I did have some very odd romantic, spiritual and relationship ideas floating around in my “pretty little head”!.
No more. NML has led to me realise that, in my case, MY ATTITUDE IS ALL. EVERYTHING. WHO I DRAW AND HOW LONG THEY STAY WITH ME (OR FEEDING OFF ME) IS MY SAY-SO.
And, wow, it’s actually a relief to know that because, as I’ve said elsewhere, I stand no hope in hell of ever changing anything about anyone on earth; but I can change much about myself. Just by knowing about things seems to lend my attitudes a different kind of strength. I seem to have started emanating a refusal to deal with Ninnies – and Ninnies are keeping away.
Since leaving EU to himself, he hasn’t contacted me once for any reason whatsoever. Do I find this an insult? Do I feel further rejected and worthless? Do I heck! I “feel” he bloody well knows he’d better keep his distance or lots of brown stuff will be hitting lots of fans.
I’ve had enough of them all. I really have. And that absolute decision to not have them near me again seems to keep them off in itself.
It’s some kind of weakness they’re looking for – the chink they can slip through to get what they’re after – whether N Supply in the case of a Narc; or free sex and ego-stroking in the case of an EU/AC.
Take NML’s information on board – make your DECISIONS to END everything with them, and watch the Ninnies evaporate.
It can’t be done if they are coming back in any way into your life (in person, email, AIM, phone). That’s just letting them blow life back into the withering balloon of the illusion.
Or decide you do want to live that way, and get on and enjoy it.
Take the DECISION in your own hands either way, I’d say.
love, Leonine
@Alice “You could compare it with witchhunt in the middle ages. They put the witch in water, if she drowned she was innocent, if she swam she was guilty and they burnt her to death.”
@Leonine “MY ATTITUDE IS ALL. EVERYTHING. WHO I DRAW AND HOW LONG THEY STAY WITH ME (OR FEEDING OFF ME) IS MY SAY-SO.”
Between you, ladies, you’ve summed up me 10 years ago and me now I think. I still to this day wonder what would have happened if I had not gone off being all experimental with BDSM (so much for a kinky sex life as it turned out I didn’t even get that!!). Still, what is done is done and I also no longer intend to leave that chink in my armour. I do still intend to be helpful, caring and nurturing and my job channels away that need nicely from something which is a weakness into something which actually helps other people and lets me gather my self esteem.
I so agree about staying caring and helpful, Butterfly – but I’m no longer prepared to throw those qualities away on wasters. The world is full of people who deserve care and helpfulness, and who aim to pull forward because of it. They are, and always will be, welcome to whatever I can do.
But I’m remeinded of a “rule” I read years ago when reading up about Narcs: The Rule Of Three – first red flag might be a mistake; second red flag and you need to start paying attention; third red flag and OUT they go, no matter who or what you think they are to you.
At last, I intend to apply that to my life – and most especially to those men who are supposed to “love” me.
love to you (and no red flags with it, lol), Leonine
“I so agree about staying caring and helpful, Butterfly – but I’m no longer prepared to throw those qualities away on wasters.”
I agree,some people(like the EUM for example) likes to take advantage on us being caring and helpful so we have to pay atention to whom we give it.I liked your sugestion of the Rule of Three.
Hello everyone,
I have just sent the “final email” to my ex. I have decided I *have* had enough, and I no longer want him “feeding off me” as Leonine described. I will now turn my caring and energies towards those in my life who really deserve it, similar to what Butterfly said.
@aphrogirl – “it’s not exactly like closure, it’s only the first step to getting out of the unsatisfying relationship,” – then that is how I will consider it – maybe partial closure, but definitely a step in the right direction. Enjoy your leisure time.
@Leonine – “I did have some very odd romantic, spiritual and relationship ideas floating around in my “pretty little head” – me too, but this site has helped me to see the light, and I would be foolish to continue with that illusion after knowing what we all know now, and after reading everyone’s stories.
OK, email sent, MSN blocked – deep breath, day 1 NC has begun.
Thanks again everyone…
Wish I could remember red flag three … I do remember red flag one tho and I remember the “chill in the blood”. And I knew, idiot, I knew even then that my guts were telling me the truth. My sensitive guys said WHAT about this girl he used to see? Huh? How in the name of hell did that marry up with what I was seeing, hearing and feeling?
Did I challenge him on it? Actually I did. I told him straight that what he had just said made me pause – bearing in mind that this was during the phase when he was running superhot (i.e. he was “in love with” me aka he was obsessed with the perfect lover he was casting me as in his mind). I sadly can’t remember now what he said or did, the mind having such a great ability to blot out pain.
I knew though. These days I have to agree with you Leonine, and I had an interesting conversation the other night with someone who had been trying to chase me with “soon” as the watchword. You can imagine that my reaction to “soon” is “that’s what you think sunshine”. When I talked to him on MSN he was still trying to chase and it was so perfect and practiced that it had the exact opposite effect. He said that my replies had not been encouraging (not surprised, they were boundary city) and still fenced around the “soon” and the on-off nature of chasing. He simply could NOT answer anything straight, said “can we start over? I am aware that I have missed a great opportunity with you” and “I don’t see why we can’t meet up for some fun whenever you are in the UK”.
I told him why not – why the hell would I want to waste my time.
This ended with him saying that he wanted to start again and I said “OK ball is in your court then” because I knew full well what would happen. It did. It was all “well the conversation is over for now, but … soon …”
I said to him as I have to any other guy who tells me when I am allowed to speak or not, i.e. “The conversation is completely over”.
You said it though. There are people who do need a shoulder now and then, or practical advice/help, or a well timed kick up the arse, who do something as a result and yes these are the ones worth spending time with 🙂
@Meant good for you babes, this is where it really starts and actually once you make a commitment to yourself and start to keep it then life feels better. You might well miss him, but you’re missing something very romantic inside your own head. Remember he has fly-crotch really 🙂
Hugs
I want to ask something,I still cant fully understand how Im EU.I have been reading He is scared,she is scared review and there seems to explain it but I cant get the book.I live outside USA and Europe and we dont have it on my country.I know I could order for the net but just take too long to arrive here(54 workdays).So I have to figure it out other ways,like here for example.Anybody could explain it to me please?
Anusha, there is a whole ebook on emotional unavailability on this site – https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/mr-unavailable-and-the-fallback-girl-book-one/ This explains emotional unavailability on both sides.
Also read other posts https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/recognising-things-about-yourself-in-the-man-you-profess-to-love-part-1/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/why-do-we-throw-ourselves-at-bad-relationships-and-then-wonder-why-it-hurts/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/positive-woman-positive-relationship/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/so-what-is-commitment-phobia/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/introducing-miss-commitment-phobe/
These are just some of the posts that address this subject.
I have been dating a 45 yr. man. I am 49 yrs. He was married for 10 yrs. with 3 children. He married young and had his first child at 21 yrs. He divorced his wife. He then met another woman and had another daughter and that lasted about 6 yrs. They separated for 2 yrs. and remarried to try and work it out for their daughter. A few years later, they had 2 sons. After 10 yrs of the marriage, they divorced. He wanted custody of the children since the mother is unstable and he didn’t want to uproot them from a good living. They both tried to compromise a plan. It worked in the beginning where she has access to his home and was welcomed to see the kids at any time. This didn’t last too long. She eventually took him to court and had a long dragged out divorced where it drained him finacially. The outcome was he did get custody of his 3 children (8, 11 and 20) and he also lives with his mom.
He dated two other women after his divorce. According to him, each lasted about 6 months. One relationship the family did not get along with her so it made it difficult for him to continue the relationship. He ended it without calling and no contact. The second he claims was very dull. Didn’t like to go out or drink and did not have a sense of humor. She was also a cancer. He ended the relationship with no contact.
Five months later, I responded to his personal ad. He wasn’t replying back. Therefore I sent a message saying I guess he wasn’t interested or perhaps met someone. If I am wrong, my number is _ _ _ _ _ _, please feel free to contact me. A few hours later, he called me. He mentioned that he did reply but I was not getting his messages. Anyway , he asked me out that Friday. He called me on a Wednesday. We went out and it was great. There was definitely chemistry. On Sunday, he texted me asking me to go out with him, which I did. One thing lead to another and here we are 18 months later. It has been an emotional roller coaster. He did mention to me that he had a lot on his plate and was not ready for a full blown relationship.
We continue to go out every other weekend when he didn’t have his kids. I did eventually meet the kids and his mother and gradually he was inviting me over his house. We have great times together. But he does not express his feelings or reassures me. He did say he does care a lot for me and thinks about me when we are not together. He mentioned his daugher and his mother like me a lot. His boys are adorable and they love me.
Anyway, I have been feeling neglected lately. His contact with me is minimal. Only one text in the morning. No calls througout the day. I know he is shy and that is why I initiate the contact. Well, I am feeling ver neglected and I sent him several long emails expressing my feelings. All I get from him are short emails telling me, that if we are not on the same page, it’s not going to work. He says I am a great and beautiful woman and he loves being with me.
Anyway, I sent him a text inviting over to my home for abut an hour, which he use to do in the beginning. I did not get a reply. Therefore, I emailed him the next day saying I think it was rude that he ignored me. Here is my last email to him….and at the end will be his reply. I do not know where to go from here. I did not go to his house on Sunday. When you read this you will see what I mean. I’ve had no contact with him since this last email.
Hi honey:
As you know, I have a tendency of communicating openly and honestly. Where I come from and how I was raised, manners are really important to me. It’s just good manners, no matter where you come from to reply, take calls, all of it. I want to have the comfort of knowing that we share the same concerns.
Your actions show me that you don’t want me to bother with you. It’s like you push me away and that hurts. I know you are a strong passionate, loving, gentle and understanding person who lives in a world of feelings just like me. The difference is, I express my feelings outwardly and you bottle them up. But yet I feel like I understand you in ways that would perplex an outsider and I want to say the right thing when the chips are down. I want to nurture what we have; therefore, I will not offend nor hurt you.
Please understand that the urge to want to be with you grows each time. I understand you are a devoted family man whose schedule is limited. I know you enjoy your home and everything associated with it, but a girl can try. I never set my expectations high. I am secure with myself enough not to allow myself to get disappointed. Sometimes my anxiety gets the best of me and I need to learn to use my coping skills when this happens. Although I understand some circumstances prevent you from responding to my text immediately, it is discouraging when I receive absolutely no reply. Then you become increasingly distance as my tally of neglect grows. In this respect, it’s either all or nothing. It can lead to a relationship getting either progressively better, or progressively worse. I understand you can be unpredictable with a little bit of everything at different times. I care for you 20 times a day every day.
I am hoping we can both work on our issues. I know it won’t happen overnight, but I need to communicate my concerns to you. I am hoping you can do the same.
Once again, I will see you on Sunday around noon!
His reply….
Hello , why do you send me these long emails. It drives me crazy! I’m stuck in my ways, also I’m busy and tired. I’m not trying to be mean but if I don’t want to deal with any thing don’t force me. Please back off and if this doesn’t work for you, you know what to do. I know your trying to express your feelings but I do not want to nor do I care to.
I think this was a very cruel email and it hurt me. I care for this man a great deal and do not know what to do.
Pisces Capricorn, this comment is really off topic and I suggest you post your comment to a more appropriate post as this has nothing to do with isolation. I suggest
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/when-your-love-gets-interpreted-as-desperation/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/passive-aggression-in-relationships-part-1/
His email is quite cold but he is also being direct and I would take him at his word. I wouldn’t keep sending emails like this to someone who does not appreciate this tack because you will alienate him with this type of email which could be perceived as psychoanalysing him or trying to guilt trip him to giving more than he is prepared to give. Thanks Natalie
PiscesCapricorn- “Hello , why do you send me these long emails. It drives me crazy! I’m stuck in my ways, also I’m busy and tired. I’m not trying to be mean but if I don’t want to deal with any thing don’t force me. Please back off and if this doesn’t work for you, you know what to do. I know your trying to express your feelings but I do not want to nor do I care to.”
Wow what a insensitive and rude reply.It seems that the only thing he cares about is himself and you arent a prority to him.And since you two are together he should care about your fellings.This man has EU writen all over him.I know what Im talking about,he looks a lot like my ex.My ex used to act like if being with me was a bother and that expending time with me was something he just did when he had nothing better to do.This man is the same,he just want to deal with you when is convinient for him and in the meantime he keeps throwing you crumbs(like the one text a day).I understand you love him but for your own good I think you should just walk away and look for somebody that treats you how you want and deserve.
Thank you for your reply NML 🙂 I have been reading the posts you recomended and I think that now I got it how Im EU.
@Meant
I am so proud of you =) see how strong you are!
@Tara,
Thanks so much 🙂
Even though I sent the “final email” to his personal email addy, he sent a reply to my work email that more or less just said “Agreed”
So, day 1 has begun for real….
Meant to be Happy- NC is the best thing you can do for yourself,welcome back on board 🙂
@Butterfly – “I do still intend to be helpful, caring and nurturing and my job channels away that need nicely from something which is a weakness into something which actually helps other people and lets me gather my self esteem.”
Just curious Butterfly, what do you do? If you don’t mind. I am also a healer type, nurturing and caring and am considering a career change so that I can put those gifts to use, rather than wasting them in my personal life and ending up drained. I actually saw an Astrologer once, and she said that if I didn’t become some type of healer – that I would be drained by needy people in my personal life. Hmph. I think it’s great that you can channel that way through your work!
@PJ – teaching! Adults.
@Meant … now that you see one word, and sent to your work mail (he knew you’d blocked him cos you told him or cos he just knew?) what he really is, yeah?
@Anusha – thanks, it’s good to be back
@Butterfly – there were a few more words there, but basically just agreeing with what I said and thanking me. I didn’t tell him I blocked him, but maybe he guessed since I didn’t get the MSN messages he sent last week. But yeah, kind of feeling like he’s an unfeeling “user” now.
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