I’ve been emphasising something over the past few months that I feel it’s time to revisit: Dating is a discovery phase. Use the period from when you meet, whether it starts out online or in the ‘real world’, as an opportunity for you both to discover the ‘facts’ about one another. Use the dating stage of an involvement to ascertain whether you want to progress or opt out.
Generally speaking, to get to the point of going on a date, there is some level of attraction there. However, unless you’re superficial or living in La La Land, the point of dating is to build on the attraction, get to know the person, and ensure that whatever ideas and assumptions you have are grounded in reality. You need more than physical and sexual attraction – you should be getting an initial sense of their values and whether they treat you with care, trust and respect, and of course match words with actions.
If you’re not getting to know them or you are and are experiencing things that are at the very least proceed-with-caution signals or at their worst, full-on abort mission signals, this is because you’ve already decided to commit, regardless.
Maybe this is what scares me about some of the stories I hear – I know that dating can be tough, especially if you’re doing it online. I have a mother, friends, family, and of course many readers who are dating.
However, when I hear stories about disappointment, frustration, and insecurity about dates that haven’t worked out, there is a recurring theme:
The bulk of these people don’t miss the person they were dating; they miss the person they’d hoped they’d become or the relationship they were hoping they would get.
Do you know what this also means? – They were too far along in investment and illusions to have their feet in reality enough to be working out whether this person was someone that they actually should be with.
Many people who are dating, are assuming that because they’re dating someone, that they want a relationship from them, and that it is going to turn into a relationship.
Like the issue of common interests and sexual attraction, there is this dangerous assumption that someone who we find worthy of dating in the first place must be someone who is worthy of a relationship. That’s called giving yourself far too much credit for your powers of judgement.
Don’t believe me. Ask yourselves this: Why, if we’re dating, do we 1) act like we’re in a relationship or 2) not know when to fold and even if we see signs on day one that we should step away from the light, we try to work at dating?
Now I get it – many people do date because they want to find someone to share a relationship with. Ideally, I’d like to think they were all looking for a mutually fulfilling relationship with love, care, trust, and respect…but a lot of people don’t know what a relationship looks like, never mind a healthy one – they just know they want one. Badly.
So badly in fact, that I hear too many tales of people going into fixing/helping/healing/arguing/crisis management mode when they hardly know their dates.
Dating does require effort, but if you already have to work at dating someone, you’ve got issues.
I’m not saying that there might not be a hiccup here or there, but if you start dating someone and you’re already feeling like you have to ‘work’ at a relationship you don’t have, the rot will set in fast.
We’re not all in it for the same reasons and as we don’t live in an ideal world, people are 1) not always honest about their reasons or 2) overestimate their interest.
This is what dating is for! Let me say it again – Dating is a discovery phase.
Our job when we date, aside from hopefully enjoying ourselves, is to work out what and who we’re dealing with before we make a commitment to have an exclusive relationship and before we feel safe enough to put both feet in and invest ourselves.
Some of you, are meeting someone and thinking ‘Oh please let this be it because I really fancy the arse off them’ and then putting on a blindfold, tying your arms and legs together and diving in. Hell to the NO.
As everyone is not honest about their reasons, you can only discover what someone’s true intentions are by spending time around them with your eyes and ears 100% open and not letting your vagina or penis or your overactive imagination make your judgements for you.
If someone said ‘What I’m looking for is someone to have a whirlwind romance with and yet again, fantastise about a relationship I’m never going to be around to have, and then shag you a few times and then whip the rug from under your feet and leave’, they wouldn’t have much luck with dates or they’d only be with the desperate sort. By lying or ‘overstating’, they get to be with a better caliber of person, until their arses get turfed out.
And yes, you know what? Sometimes we think we’re more interested than we are. Sometimes it’s because we’re emotionally immature, but sometimes it’s because we’re human and we change our minds or something imperceptible or very obvious turns us off.
Dating is a discovery phase. You may be in it for one reason, but some are in it for a shag, or whatever. You may feel that you have a lot in common – you might, you might not and you will never know this unless you put in the time and discover.
This whole treating dating like a relationship not only sets you up for major disappointment because you’re going in too seriously, but you end up having an attitude like people should come with a dossier and a certificate giving them a clean bill of relationship health.
It’s your job to do the discovery work and you have to prepare yourself that sometimes you’ll make discoveries that mean you have to opt out. Yeah it’s a pain in the arse, but it’s better than the pain that comes with detracting from yourself or pursuing something past its sell by date.
You.Must.Put.Some.Time.In. There are no guarantees. But.You.Must.Know.When.To.Leave
Before you go on another date, evaluate your dating perspective. If you’re feeling very ‘date or die’, tough as it may be to hear, it’s time to have an honest conversation with yourself and get your personal security in order. Desperation and insecurity either draw in shady people or filter out decent people as it’s kind of exhausting.
As I said in my last post on Future Faking and Fast Forwarding, if you can’t handle the emotional consequences of making mistakes or being disappointed, aside from slowing down and rolling back your level of investment, I would address these areas so that you can date with a reasonable level of confidence and not feel like it’s a ride or die situation.
Manage your insecurities, address any limiting beliefs, and don’t make dating a vocation. Not every person can be ‘it’ – if you’re more eager to be off the market than you are to meet a quality partner, you will project a relationship and just keep trying to slot candidates into the hole in your relationship picture, instead of meeting someone, seeing how it goes, and letting the relationship picture evolve from there.
Your thoughts?
Image source SXC Tombre
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Thank you 🙂 I think you wrote this directly for me didn’t you 😉 Time to stop jumping in relationships that you have to “fix” and wanting to be with the person you want them to be instead of who they really
Excellent point and reminder! Sometimes we go into dating someone forgetting that we are ‘getting to know’ this person we are not committed to death do part. Now in getting to know this person if they exhibiting shady behavior, we have to be prepared to leave the situation – we can be prepared to emotionally invest, but also look when we may be making a bad investment choice. Equally see when it’s wise t0 make a good emotional investment i.e. being committed. You are right, we have to be in reality and having our tool box of all the things you listed such as boundaries, self love, etc to make healthy relationship choices. We have to go into it with our eyes and ears wide open, also our hearts and minds. Realizing that like you said ‘we in a discovery phase’ and we may discover this person is suitable or unsuitable.
I know I’ve been guilty of jumping in with my eyes closed, just to get the attention I craved, then I would go around and act like a victim. A lot of what you talked about is growing up and taking responsibility. Everything you had mentioned really puts it into a neat perspective and just rephrasing what you said because I can understand it now.
I have been guilty of this many times over. The infatuation just takes hold and there we go, down that very slippery slide to…a big hollow disappointment. Nat, you’re a gifted reader of the human heart. I hope someone gives you a $$ publishing contract one day 🙂
Thank you for this post. I agree whole-heartedly with your assessment here. I’ve been working at getting into better and healthier relationships, with some success, including setting boundaries and letting people go when I realize they’re looking for a booty call (and I’m not). However, I still am not sure how to date — this sounds ridiculous, as I’m 37 years old, and you’d think I would know this by now. I know how to go on one or two dates and then never follow through, and I know how to start seeing someone and go from zero to 60 in a very short time period… but “dating” is a foreign concept.
It’s something I WANT to learn how to do and WANT to do, but not something I feel confident in. And that’s not because I haven’t worked on my own issues or am looking for Mr Right, etc. (I’ve spent a good deal of time getting over all of that with the help of a good therapist, and I was in a very good relationship with a man who died suddenly last year).
Anyhow… I think sometimes we go from dating to a relationship mindset not because there is anything wrong with our psychology but because we don’t know how to do anything different. Maybe some tips would help? (And if you’ve given them before and I’ve missed them… feel free to point me to the relevant links. Thanks!)
@ Amy, I sooo relate to your post. I am 36 and feel the same way in regards to feeling like I don’t really know how to date, and all of the other points that you mentioned.
@Natalie, it really would be great if you could give detailed/explicit pointers in regards to actually dating as a process. I too have done the 1-3 date thing or have jumped in too fast. So, how do you really date beyond date 2 or 3, without going from 0-60?
Can you just clarify your question for me as I’m a bit confused by what you mean re the 1-3 date thing?
…..”The bulk of these people don’t miss the person they were dating; they miss the person they’d hoped they’d become or the relationship they were hoping they would get”.
Yep that was me, thank goodness that phase is over and I now see him and our relationship for exactly what they both were “Frauds”.
That was a terrific article. I’ve always rushed in way too fast and gotten burned. I won’t be anymore.
“The bulk of these people don’t miss the person they were dating; they miss the person they’d hoped they’d become or the relationship they were hoping they would get.” So true. And then when it doesn’t work out or you realize that “The Person For You” was a jerk, it is a huge downfall and its feels like utter rejection and disappointment. And most of it was because of what you created in your own mind (…with the help of emotional immaturity, lack of dating experience, fairy tales, etc.).
I also like the comment about a date feeling like “do or die” and being aware that it is a sign to be honest about your own feelings. I think having these honest moments with myself earlier on would have saved me from being so “stuck” when it all ended.
This is a fantastic post about being honest with yourself and finding ways to change past patterns. I am all about healing and growing as a woman these days.
If you are trying to meet people on line, becoming aware of assclownery at the level it is exposed on this blog means you can spot red flags in personal ads so you don’t even have to bother meeting the person (or even responding to their ad).
And I can’t tell you the number of dates I’ve had in the past where I should have bailed after reading the first email or phone call, the first date, or the second date.
Ah, “hurry hurry rush rush” Not just a bad lyric from song by Paula Abdul.
When one or both people in a relationship rush the tempo, the best of intentions are swamped and the worst disguised. Emotional subtlety is either forgotten or mocked.
In the aftermath, many of us are made unwilling cynics which makes us that much less open and trusting when we find someone who is deserving.
Add to that the longing to be in a relationship (a respite against the increasing isolation of society) and table is set for fantasizing and premature bonding which shortly thereafter blows up into hurt and missed signals.
This isn’t limited to online dating for sure. NML’s advice is good for all spheres. A lot of the impatience has leaked from our technological world into our social world, and dating (from whatever source) is one of the areas where we have paid a heavy price.
Wow! I totally needed this – and feel like you are writing this for me. I’m nearly two months NC from my “Epiphany Relationship” (or can I even call it a “relationship”?!) — just like you have said, I’m looking over a string of failed relationships and realizing the one common denominator is myself. Wow! I am so guilty of wishing, wanting, assuming, and hoping…
One month after meeting him, he let his guard down and showed me how angry he still was at his ex-wife and how much pain he was still in. He said to me, “My kids will NEVER know about you”.. as though he were still protecting them. I knew that was a red flag, but since I was (supposedly) the first girl he was with since his divorce, I thought I “wouldn’t put demands on him and I could heal him”. The sad part is (as I nurse my pain now 7 months later), is this is what I wrote in my journal back in July…
“I’m worried that I’m just a rebound distraction for him to keep his mind off of his pain… it makes me want to get out now and guard my heart… that for him this is just a pain killer.. that I’m just a pain killer.. he’s not ready for a relationship… I just need to think and decide and contemplate what to do at this point… part of me (my instinctual side) wants to say, forget it, I’m out of here… I see where this is headed and it’s nothing that looks good for me.. more of the same of being used… another part of me thinks… that I’ve never met someone like him and I would sure hate to give it up now… we have so much fun together and he is so incredibly easy to be around… I’ve never met anyone like him”
Seriously?!? As I put with more and more criticism, distancing, and controlling behavior, I realize now that I built my “sandcastles in the sky” thinking it was far more than it was … I went so far as to fly to Europe to keep him company for a week (at my own expense) because I thought I was in a “relationship” — after I fly home I texted him how wonderful a time I had — and 12 hours later he texted back, “thank you for the words” — I knew then, I was really only a distraction. When I ended it he emailed saying, “I’ve been in a spot lately — I’ve just been feeling like I’ve been using your time”. I knew what he meant — he had just been using me.
I wish I had listened to my inner voice rather than trying to make it something more than it was.
Thank you for all your wonderful words of wisdom. You have helped me make sense of myself and feel like I have some direction to heal.
“As I put with more and more criticism, distancing, and controlling behavior”. Wow. I think we dated the same guy.
@Lynda from L
Emily, I read your post and just had to write before I go to work because my heart goes out to you. My story mirrors yours in many ways and I truly get how frustrated and sad you have felt.After 7 months like you I could not continue to ignore the lack of clarity in his intentions to me and the plateau of sex,comfort(to him) and drama that had started to constitute our relationship.
I also, like you, put up with controlling behaviour…he had severe problems with any men I knew/had as friends and would name call me,labelling me as promiscuous/fast etc . He started to distance himself by putting his mates/concerts/nights out before time he spent with me and I also never got to meet his kids,despite much promises. I don’t think he ever had plans for that.
I realised that I was not in the relationship I thought I was in like you after I did something nice for him when he was away on a luxury break!( I know!!!) I put flowers on his sister’s place of rest because he said he couldn’t face it/was bad time of year etc. He actually said ‘Thanks you will need to be recompensed for that lovely act’ Like I wanted paid!!!! He saw me as separate to his life.
I did feel like I was going mad because of all the intense early fast forwarding he did,all the future fakery he used on me in the early days of the relationship were still reverberating in my head… I kept on repeating to myself like a mantra. ‘He couldn’t have lied as badly as that, he couldn’t have made all these promises’ But he did.
Anyhow,it is fresh and raw to me but… I was really at fault too. I should have realised that noone is as’full on’ as he was so early in relationship. I should have taken it so slowly…. I would have watched him walk away but I would have been spared much time and pain.
This time round,when I date again it will be in slow motion, honestly….until I ‘m sure of intentions that match my expectations.
I wanted to say that you were not wrong to hope so much. You and I know that there are decent emotionally honest guys out there…and should never lower our standards and boundaries to conform to a EUM’s short term gratification.
In the end the true EUM (as my guy undoubtedly was), is I think,very very lonely, often stressed and unhealthy because of all the quick fix solutions,alcohol,temporary relationships etc they need to keep going. I wish you love and future happiness Emily x
I feel like I am venturing into the ocean without a compass! I am trying to recognize those red/yellow flags and do something, rather than ignore them. But I am noticing when I am doing more questioning with the men, they seem to get defensive or act like I don’t have the right to ask and they are now somehow “offended”. So then I am thinking, maybe I didn’t have the right to ask that so soon, even though I don’t want to get into a situation too far. Then I am just confused! Was I actually being proactive and paying attention, or was I being too pushy and should have waited a while. So any comments would be appreciated on the two scenarios below:
1). Dated guy 4 times, appeared to be mutual attraction…but he kept asking questions like “do you think people can change”, “have you been in any bad relationships”, etc. Radar goes up and I asked “why don’t you tell me about your last relationship?” He starts out saying his female friends told him he shouldn’t tell this to women he is dating…but, he was in an 8 month on/off relationship with a woman who he is very physcially attracted to, she gets mad and tells him to get lost, she calls him back a week later, they start all over again, and they just broke up, again, about 3 weeks before. So I asked are you done with that relationship and he said he believes so. That sounded wishy washy so I asked him are you 100% sure you are done with that relationship and he said no, he can’t say for 100% sure. So I told him to call me when he was sure. Then he said he thought it was too soon for me to be asking about that! But once he put it out there, it had to be addressed! He got offended and I ended up feeling bad for asking somehow.
2). Dated other guy 3 times and I knew he was quite a bit younger than me. Through talking about his family I am starting to think this guy is REALLY younger than I am. So I ask him how old he is and he wouldn’t tell me. He asked me to guess and I gave a number and he said “around that” so now I am getting more concerned. I asked about 4 more times, really nicely, kind of teasing him, and indicated I thought we had a pretty big age gap, offered to tell him my age (he kept saying no, it didn’t matter), finally I told him I needed to know how old he was. He tells me and I am 20 years older than him!! Then he turns it around on me and starts saying “you must really have a problem with my age because you asked so many times so if you still want to go out with me, call me”. I wasn’t even sure how much it bothered me, but I did think it was important information to be considered. But he acted so offended that I should care how old he is that I started questioning myself on whether I had the right to ask! Help!
Since I am the queen of blowing through red flags if I am attracted to someone, have I pushed the pendlum the other direction now and I am asking too much too soon? Or am I being smart and aborting mission early on when there are some real reasons to be concerned and to hell with them if they get offended? I am so darn confused! BTW, I do not have communication issues with anyone but men I am dating! 🙁
With my last guy I also felt pressured to bring up things early on because of some things I observed. For example, he had talked also about issues with an ex. Also about a female who is his “Best Friend, she’s always been there for me blah blah”. And several other things that all added up to look like maybe he had boundary (or lack of boundary) issues with women. So after only our first date I had to ask him what he was looking for, and tell him I was looking for a relationship, and that having a bunch of females so emotionally enmeshed into the life of a boyfriend wouldn’t be something I would want. I offered him the exit, twice, telling him, look if you just want to play the field, then just keep doing what you’re doing, and I’ll let you go do that, without me. He said no he really wanted to pursue a relationship with me. Needless to say, he was just pretending and had no intention of giving up his harem. Anyway, I’d much prefer to just let things happen at first and do like Natalie says, just date, but sometimes you kind of have to talk something over in order to get a sense of what’s going on since we can’t read their minds. But of course even if you do talk sometimes they tell you what you want to hear anyway lol…
Hey Melanie,
I think that’s why it’s important to trust your instincts instead of what guys say. And watch their actions closely. Maybe they do feel like they’re ready to be in a relationship, but if they sound to you like they’re too into their ex or have boundary issues with women, personally i trust myself more than some guy i’ve just met. Maybe i am being too cautious, but i would rather not be messed around.
Yes thanks Minky! I agree. I got rid of the guy within a couple months. And he never did anything in my face outrageous, and despite his verbal protestations that he was ready for a relationship and wanted to pursue one with me, I choose my instincts in the end and dumped him. You know what happened on what turned out to be our final date? He and I were at a show together, it was just starting and I was talking to him about the act, he didn’t seem too talkative or interested. He is a very non talkative guy so that wasn’t too unusual. (he sure texts a lot though!!!) I noticed him fiddling with his phone a few times. Thought maybe he was turning off the ringer as (polite) people do at the start of any show, or perhaps checking the time. But when I leaned on him to cuddle up, his phone lit up again and it was from (girls name) saying “huh-huh that’s funny :-)”. So here I was all dolled up and looking forward to spending time with him at a show and he’d been too busy chatting up and entertaining some other chick. On OUR date! After I’d already told him how I feel about his relationships with women and had in fact mentioned text-chatting with them as one example of behavior I didn’t like. Her name was on his facebook list (after that I dropped him as a FB friend) and so I knew she is 19 years old, married, with a baby and another on the way. His best friend is married too. A lot of the women who flirt with him are married. Anyway when I coupled that with the other signals and looked at it all in it’s totality (though an action like that is rude enough on it’s own to warrant dumping, and you don’t have to be in a full-fledged relationship for it to be rude to pull that stunt while on a date with someone) I felt it was just too much. I was really looking forward to seeing this show, it was a one time opportunity to see an act I’ve admired for more than 20 years. So although I had the urge to have him take me home right then, I decided he wasn’t worth ruining my chance to see this act. The show was fabulous. I sat alone, pretended he wasn’t even there the whole time. He tried to put his arm around me and touch me and I completely ignored him and sat as far from him as I could. Then when the show was over he asked “So, what do you want to do now?” I said “I’m going home. I don’t know where you’re going.” He was my ride so he did drive me home, at which point I got out of his car without a word and went into my house. Later he tried texting me several times over the next couple weeks. And just like Natalie has talked about when he finally got hold of me and I felt (for some reason) ready to see if he had learned a lesson, had an epiphany, something like that. But instead he just gave me lip service, seemed almost disinterested in talking to me (though he’d been texting me with apologies all along) or making a true effort to convince me that things would change or how they would change etc. So I realized he hadn’t really changed or learned anything and chose my instincts over his empty words. Something tough for me has been the feeling of betrayal by some of my friends (the ones who know him) and my brother, as they seem to think he’s the greatest thing since sliced bread. Doesn’t matter that he didn’t treat me with respect or appreciation, just that he’s charming to them. So I’ve distanced myself from or even dropped them. Oh well, I’m just glad I got out sooner than later, and also that he never did get any sex from me. Really I think I’d feel a lot worse if I did give him that just to be disrespected and unappreciated. It’s really great to come here to this great blog and see stories from other women who’ve had dating experiences in their lives similar to my own, and to see that I’m not alone in being bothered by these behaviors. Funny how sometimes complete strangers have more empathy and respect and goodwill for you than do your own family and “friends”.
Hey Oldenough –
I don’t think you were at all unreasonable asking those questions. In scenario 1, the guy brought up the topic in the first place, so it’s not like you even mentioned it! Asking someone you’re dating if they’re over their ex is not unreasonable either – that’s one of the signs of an EU, from NML’s list of things to look out for: “openly not over their ex”. Good for you!
Scenario 2 is just plain weird! ‘how old are you?’ should be a perfectly straight forward question, so why is this guy acting like he has something to hide?! Very dodgy if you ask me. I once ended up with a guy 12 yrs younger than me and he was perfectly open about it and i was totally open about my age – why wouldn’t you be?! You can’t build a relationship based on trust if one person is hiding the most basic of information!
In both situations the guys reactions should tell you all you need to know. They’re the ones acting shifty. Your instincts are bang on and you should trust yourself more and not worry about how you look to others by asking perfectly appropriate questions. You should consider whether you would mind being asked these things yourself and use that as a gauge. Some people are more private than others, but you seem like a rational person with good boundaries.
Well done for asking these guys stuff you needed to know. If a guy has nothing to hide then he will not make you feel awkward for asking questions.
Best of luck on future dates. Keep doing what you’re doing 🙂
oldenough
you need to know if someone is still “in love” with an ex. and you need to know if there’s a 20 year age difference. i’d rather find out on date 1, 2, 0r 3 than later or, God forbid, after sex.
no one wants to be turned down, even by someone they don’t know. so don’t expect them to be happy about it. it’s just part of the territory.
they’re probably over it by now. if they’re not, they have issues (like we have/had) and it’s got nothing to do with you asking legitimate questions.
Old enough to know better, I feel the same as you. I recently started dating again and had a hard time with what questions to ask and if I am being too forward. I have expressed this to a guy friend of mine and he said I was being too forward, that men will run if I ask them if they are looking for a relationship during the first few dates. I disagree with him though. I think that if the guy runs then he wasn’t looking for a relationship in his life and if “just” the question made him feel pressured then I am glad he ran. Why invest more time in someone who doesn’t want a relationship if that is what I am looking for. I also ask if they are seeing other people ( if the possibility of sex is there) and how long it has been since their last relationship. I ask them what there goals are, this tells you a lot. Asking some of these questions was hard at first, like I was stepping on their toes, but the old me didn’t ask and I ended up in ambiguous “relationships”. I still struggle with being assertive but am getting better. I have decided that I want to base my actions on what it is I really want, not on how they might judge me. Of course, I am acting with respect and being polite, but so what if I do something they don’t approve of. They can kick rocks. I still have moments of being insecure and am trying to work out some trust issues, but when I get in the mindset that I am in charge of my own life and act in my own best interest, I feel empowered. If I meet a guy who doesn’t like me because I asked him a few harmless questions, he can beat it.
Several years ago I asked a guy who I was on a hiking date with how old he was and he went mental. He ended up yelling at me saying I was just trying to judge him, it was none of my business, and that I was just like his mother, who he was calling crazy. Yikes! I stopped talking as I started to feel unsafe and he yelled at me to “finish what I started!” Never mind that he had just asked me how many sexual partners I have had and other very personal questions just before. This was my third date with him (and last!), but looking back at the first two dates, the writing was on the wall, I just brushed off the red/yellow flags. Early on in the hiking, he turned around and angrily scolded me for “tailgating him” and for getting too close to poison oak. I was too polite and worried about offending him at the time to say, “get a grip.” Now, hopefully I can stand up for myself and be more assertive in my own best interest. Tell the toads to move on.
jenny
i think some/a lot of men are very worried that they’ll end up being stalked by some crazed female (they should be so lucky) so are wary of clinginess. i guess it’s how you word it. Is it possible to know that they are looking for a relationship without actually asking?
Interesting one, I’ve never asked. Wish I HAD sent a few guys running.
Grace,
I agree that the way you ask the question is important. I asked the guy I’m seeing now on the third date what kind of relationship he was looking for, casual or monogamous and long term. I asked while we were having a mutual casual conversation about relationships, and didn’t ask if he was looking for it with me specifically, just in general. He didn’t get jumpy at all. If asking what kind of relationship they are looking for leads them to believe I might be a potential stalker, then they are projecting past fears onto me. I don’t want to waste any more time on EUMs and AC’s, or move forward on guess work. I also don’t want any misunderstandings or assumptions. I think drilling a guy military style is not the way to go, but just and honest, “What are you looking for?”. All I know is that in the past, I didn’t ask enough questions and didn’t act in my own best interest as I was worried more about how I looked or what they thought. This is a new approach for me. I’ll let you know how it works.
Oh, I just thought about something. I don’t on line date, but I know that you click off a box that says what you’re looking for, friendship, dating or marriage. This doesn’t spook anyone, in fact it clarifies what you want. It seems strange that asking someone in person would have any different meaning. Is it that it’s just easier to say it in print? Kind of like texting?
jenny
i think the way you word it is fine. i’ll try it if i ever get the chance!
See, to me, the idea of asking a guy what kind of relationship he wants is an example of “women who talk too much syndrome.” To begin, a lot of people guenuinely don’t know what kind of relationship they want – look at all the fallback girls who claim to want commitment but then chase after EUMs. Also, if he says he IS looking for a committed relationship, it can be easy to misinterpret that to mean he is looking for one with US, and then we may feel undue pressure for something we are still personally unsure about. Finally, if you’re dating a real jerk, he will probably tell you he wants commitment, and this will just confuse you further, and give you more “justification” for pursuing him in spite of red flags.
I would argue, in the beginning phase of a relationship, just look for actions. If he is making an effort to see you 1 or 2 times a week, treating you like you’re special, never disappearing on you, not cancelling or pushing back plans on you, willing to wait on the sex, then you’re in good shape. Allow the relationship to develop more naturally. If things continue to go well, it will probably lead to a committed relationship. If things go poorly, or he starts up with the shady behavior, let his actions be your guide to end it.
Thank you everyone for your comments! I agree with all of you, and it is an interesting different perspective. We shouldn’t feel afraid to ask questions because someone might not like us! I am quite sure these men are not filtering everything they say and do to not offend us, and we still like them even when they do make mistakes in their questions or behaviors. We need to cut ourselves more slack.
Grace, very enlightening comment about no one wants to be turned down. It never even occurred to me that they were getting defensive because they recognized through my questions that I might be qualifying THEM and they had a high chance of being rejected themselves. I just assumed they thought I was being pushy! But I was qualifying them and they knew their answers were not going to be what I was looking for. I will keep that in mind next time and not take it so personally when they turn the tables on me, they may be just pre-empting the rejection (reject me first for asking questions I “shouldn’t” so they can be the dumper instead of the dumpee! Ha ha!).
Wow, it was great to ask these questions on this site and get honest, been-there answers or even “I don’t know, I am having the same problem”! Natalie, I love your site and I cannot tell you how many women of all ages I have sent your link to….the older ones so we can finally figure this stuff out and the younger ones so they have a chance to do things better than I did in their years ahead. Thank you so much for your insight and bringing your BR community together for support!
P. S. I didn’t dump the young one yet……I AM getting wiser, but darn, he is exceptionally cute and a great kisser….can’t I have just one more kiss??!! 🙂 But I did at least SEE the red flag this time and I promise I fully intend to opt out……very, very soon, lol! Okay, not perfect yet! Forgive me ladies!
Old,
You were right!!!!!
If people become defensive or hesitant, something is up. Guy number 1, put it out there with his questions. If someone asked me if I thought people could change, it would send off the alarm bells!! The second one should have come clean with his age, he knew it would be an issue.
You did the right thing, don’t let these guys make you question yourself. Follow your gut!
Oldenoughtoknowbetter – from one also old enough to know better! Would you like a man’s point of view? Hmmm… not sure why I’m asking as I was going to give my point of view anyway 😉
I can see nothing wrong with the way you dealt with either of the examples you gave. That said, it’s more the way you said it together with body language than the words you used to say it! Be wary of asking anything more than once – but proceed if it relates to something that’s a deal breaker!
Another thing to bear in mind is that ( in general ) men have a preference for direct communication. Your ‘line of questioning’ in the examples appear direct and to the point and I see no reason for any man not giving you a direct answer – unless he has issues in that area!
To answer your question directly then – I would suggest you are doing the right thing. Keep up the good work and good luck!
Oldenough, your post could have been written by me. I know exactly what you mean about being able to recognise red/yellow flags but not acting on them. In fact I go as far as to actively ignore them even when they come with attached WW2 alarms blaring at me.
I do think you were (and are) right to question red flags early on in the relationship and of course the AC is going to get defensive and try to say you are being unreasonable. So what if they do? You only have yourself to look out for and if they are offended by you asking if they are done with a previous relationship then I believe you have the right to tell them to take a very long hike.
I just wish I was more like you and had the balls to ask the questions in the first place when I encounter red flags instead of telling myself it doesn’t matter or I’ll find out when the time is right etc etc every excuse under the sun to ignore things that make me uncomfortable just because I’m attracted to the guy, or think that because we have been friends/colleagues they are decent guys.
I have questions about drawing the line with regards to “date or die” or using “dating as a vocation”. Before my last AC relationship, I spent many many years dateless and avoiding the whole dating situation. I did not actively pursue a relationship when that one happened and it sort of just fell into my lap. Seeing what fate had delivered me, this time around I intend to actively pursue my next relationship! I am not prepared at this time to do so, but once I am healed a little more I do plan to utilize every opportunity to find a companion who is interested in a committed relationship. For certain, I intend to continue to grow other aspects of my rich life during that time as well, I just want to make certain I am not setting myself up for more heartache down the road. Can you or any of the readers expound on this area. Thanks!
Getbusy,
Sounds like a good plan to me. I know it can feel like not dating while working on yourself might mean that when the next guy comes along, you haven’t had anymore ‘practice’ since your last dodgy relationship. But all the new skills and insights you gain from working on other areas pay off. As long as we work on areas of relationship – with self, with friends, colleagues and family), and not just think that throwing oneself into, say, work as a workaholic might is “working on ourselves.” As you get more proactive and selective about dealing with everyone else in your life, becoming proactive about dating should come naturally out of that.
I say this not out of past experience, but because I’m on the same journey. The next relationship I have will be one I co-create; I don’t want any more that feel like they just happen to me.
Dating doesn’t equal a relationship. Sometimes it could be the guy fast forwarding the relationship. By the time you that we even think that we’re in a relationship he’s already out the door just throwing you just enough to make u think u have something when you DON’T! We saw all of the red flags; but we refuse to acknowledge them.
oh that’s true. Sometimes it does seem like just as we’re starting to warm up to the idea of seeing more of this person is just when he’s heading out. Unfortunately with a lot of guys it does seem to be an element of ‘the thrill of the chase’.
Over the past few months I have been unfortunately asked out on dates by completely unsuitable people and have turned them down (I also know I’m not ready to date) That aside in the above cases I was fortunate enough to know something of their background but what do you do if you meet a complete stranger who asks you for a date? What are the appropriate questions? I for example wouldn’t want to be asked out by a guy who is still married though maybe separated do I ask are you single and I mean not separated before we go on the date or when we are on the date? Like you say not everyone has pure motives for asking you out but am curious what you ask etc. ?
I’m usually the one who wants to remain in the dating phase longer. Some men I’ve dated want to go pretty quick. For instance if we only have one day off together, I’ll want to meet in the evening to commence our date, dinner/ movie or whatever it is we have planned. But they seem pretty desperate to want to spend my ENTIRE day off together. I politely and gently try to guide them back to the facts that I have a lot of chores and errands I need to do and that we’ll have a fun time in the evening when I DO see them. I don’t get it. He’s still practically a stranger at that point. To me it seems like they’re wanting to forward right past the ‘dating and getting to know each other’ phase, and directly into the phase where we’ve already gotten to know each other, and we’re now comfortable, like an old hat.
Once again…thanks! 🙂 Maybe this is something I have to work on as well, but the problem with emotional investment (in my case, at least) is that it happens in the situations where we really fancy that person. Otherwise, there are many of what I call “neutral perspectives”: or “if it works out, that’s fine, if it doesn’t, that’s fine again”! 🙂 But generally I don’t get “heated up” very often, and the people I really fancied in my life were not many at all. But even in this situation, I must try and keep my feet on the ground till I have something more or less stable, especially given my last experience…
hey, at least you all get asked out. i never meet anyone.
tulipa. i would blunt out ask. say “sure, are you single?”and smile . i don’t think he’ll be offended. back in the day when i did get asked out, they’d often proceed it with “have you got a boyfriend”? it’s a normal question.
Thanks Grace one would think dating was easy NOT
I don’t get asked out by suitable men, two of the guys who have asked me out have been married though separated and one still in a relationship but just moving his stuff out of his current girlfriends place .
So think I’d rather not be asked out at all even though I’m making a personal choice to sit on the shelf anyway.
I hope if you want to date again Grace it happens for you.
Grace and Tulipa don’t feel bad I don’t get asked out often either. What can one do? And my workplace is pretty bad as far as no one to meet there. A lot of guys who seem to think I’m pretty but as with Tulipa they are not suitable. And I can stretch myself so far and be ‘open minded’ but I can only go so far, I’d rather keep my own company than take guys with humanbaggage, drama, hangers-on, substance/food abuse, etc etc etc….
Great post. Again spookily timed Nat. Yep like others here started dating again as the new ME what I think is a good guy. It feels different. The new me asks questions. It feels so odd at first, but my ‘up frontedness’ has been welcomed and things clarified. I may have gone for on paper, the ultimate EUM, A widower. However that would be pre-judging and he is already more emotionally available than my list of exes. He is refreshingly open about it all. 5 years. Two longish relationships since. My inner thoughts go something like this, right Florence get to bed. I don’t do rescue, transitional ( the one after the big event be it divorce or death) Even though its terribly sad dealing of the cards, he still has to step up to the plate like any other guy. I am going S.L.O.W.L.Y. and so far so good. He is consistent in communication, not overwhelming nor underwhelming. Arranges next date, I am not left hanging. He is not trying to resist me. He asks questions too. Thats a new thing, the type of questions they ask. Very revealing. You should feel like you are being checked out and worthy of their heart investment too.
I feel you do have to invest a little, the key is investing enough heart and emotional openness to build a bit of a foundation to see if it is what you want, need and whether your values are compatible. Then being able and willing to walk away after the discovery phase if it is not right. So I am right at this discovery phase….look forward to your next blog on how to keep going on this new journey. At 46 I feel I am just doing it properly for the first time.
Wise,wise wise article and very apt and timely
Nat’s words ‘What I’m looking for is someone to have a whirlwind romance with,and yet again, to fantasise about a relationship I’m never going to have…. shag you a few times and then whip the rug from under your feet.’ This was my FF to a tee.
My fault too, big time….I was becoming a ‘Florence’to his great big wounded warhorse act!
When I was at the start of the relationship I should have continued to see/date other people and not have allowed myself to be closed down by him and in a sexual relationship that ultimately made me feel cheap and used after 7 months of blow hot and cold nonsense.
When I date again if someone says ‘I’ve never felt like this before, I can’t live without you’ after a couple of weeks. I will thank them for the flattery but say ‘Let’s see if you are still feeling like that in 3 months and by the wayI’m not planning on having sex with you for a while either’ Thanks Nat and to everyone on this site who has helped me X
Exactly! They can get as carried away as they want, doesn’t mean we have to go along with it.
“‘Let’s see if you are still feeling like that in 3 months and by the way I’m not planning on having sex with you for a while either’ ” – brilliant! That shoudl definitely weed out the idiots.
Thanks Minky,if I’m honest I actually prefer a bit of a slow burn when it comes to romance and sex.
I worked out that the sexual side of my last relationship felt like a bit of a foregone conclusion for me and am reflecting on that big time.
I’ve realised, and faced up to the fact that the sexual side of things was the main reason why he continued and if I’m honest, I was conforming to this and hoping that I meant more to him than I did. I was having encounters which left me empty the next day.
Stripping off this illusion of mine is painful but means that for me, slow,slow slow is the way to go.
My first date with my ex was a hike, and before we set off he bought two snack bars in a nearby shop. We had a nice time together but one thing bothered me – half-way through the walk, he proceeded to eat both bars without offering me one. Because I liked him, I rationalised: he seemed quite excitable, maybe he wasn’t thinking, cut him some slack etc. But it turned out, it was valuable information that I ignored. He was a man incapable of sharing. It was a lack of generousity, not an oversight, that I had observed.
AliceB, I tried very hard not to laugh but I couldn’t help it. The selfish, miserly, tightfisted git. So bloody tight he’d peel oranges in his pocket! Well shot of him! Wasn’t thinking? Alice, you can say for certain that if you two got stranded on an island, you’d better run for your life because if he didn’t eat all the food on the island himself, he’d eat you.
Lol NML. So bloody true!!
This reminds me of a one-off internet date I went on a few years ago. I turned up at the appointed meeting place to find my would-be suitor sweating profusely and eating a banana! (he had arrived by bike and it was a hot day – but still) He had his mouth full as he greeted me. Not a good look!
Oi!
Laughing and crying at the same time over these Scrooge-types!
My XSO was like this — he’d come to family functions (my folks are in their 80s and don’t drive much so we share a place) and I’d have to remind him to bring chocolates or a bottle of wine.
Also, in the case of my XSO, this indicated his lack of ability to plan financially. And to talk openly about his money situation.
Ha Ha! Love this Alice!The kind of guy who holds onto the bottom of the crisp packet when he offers you one..!! Good Euphenism for all these guys!
On a serious note. I wondered if anyone else had noticed that some these men, particularly the early Future Fakers are very generous at the start of the relationship. Bowl you over in fact…
Then…when they are phasing you out…their generosity phases out too. I’m still chucking when I think that the only experience I got of being taken away for my birthday weekend( not my idea,much hyped by him!) was being shown beautiful internet pics of the hotels he planned to take me.!!!
Talk about virtual reality! Thanks for the laugh!
I guess what NML says about having a ‘reasonable level of trust’ depends on their ‘reasonable’ behaviour. Fast Fwding and Future Faking are not reasonable, sensible behaviours. So for me, if i’m met with these things again and see a guy getting a bit carried away, i will be naturally wary and see what actually materialises (it’s what i’ve been doing with the current bloke, who actually steps up and does what he says he will, so it’s all good).
It feels a bit like an experiment in a lot of ways (watch the lab rat and see what he does), but at least it’s better than getting invested, catught up in the fantasy and then disappointed.
Oh dear Alice that is sooooo funny, reminds me of a date my friend went on with a guy, his kids and her kids lol they stopped at MacDonalds and this guy wouldn’t share his chips with any of the kids. And hey, at least you’re getting asked on dates lol. I’m a single parent to a 6 year old and hardly ever get asked out, mainly because I don’t get the chance to get out a lot I think. Lucky I’m happy in the she-cave 🙂
Okay…you guys started it and I have to chime in. I bought a lovely chocolate cake. He was a chocolate fan. We poured the lovely wine, which I also bought, snuggled up on the couch to eat and drink. He dug in to the cake, stuffing it into his mouth, and I was sitting there with my mouth agape expecting that he would romantically give me the first bite off his fork. If that was his worst sin, he could be forgiven, perhaps. After two years, however, I found my mouth consistently agape while he feasted.
Yep, nil manners and/or sicial retards.
They’d be better off being raised in zoos. Monkeys take better care of each other–have more common sense and empathy–than these Apes.
Nat – I hope your little one is on the mend!
Thank you for this post. I am SO guilty of this. To be honest I have a hard time distinguishing between when dating turns into a relationship – that is such a grey area for me, I am embarrassed to admit. Do you think one of your posts could cover that one off one of these days?
But after almost two years spent out of the dating pool working on improving my own outlook on life, spending time reassessing all my relationships, and refocusing on my interests, hobbies and work, I am starting to consider entering the shadowy, shark-infested waters that is dating.
Nevertheless, I laughed out right about the part about wanting it to be a relationship, putting on a blindfold, and tying up my hands and feet and diving in. Literally throwing myself to the sharks. And then hoping for the best. A shark is a shark!! Even if you want it to be a goldfish, it’s still a shark. Think I’ll put that on my fridge.
I shall read this post over and over until it sinks in. Thank you!!!
Hey Done –
The thing is, when you do find a decent guy, you will be able to talk to him about things like this. In my experience, you can tell by their actions if things are getting serious and you are progressing from dating to a relationship and you can discuss it without them freaking out. A decent guy will not baffle the hell out of you and you will be able to trust him and hopefully you will be able to get to know him enough to know what he’s made of. They leave you with very little doubt about wanting to be with you. There’s no blowing hot and cold, or getting all carried away with grand gestures, just taking it slow and getting to know each other, no promises they can’t deliver on either and communication should not be a struggle.
If you don’t want the same thing, the guy will be honest about it and will not mess you about or use you for what they can get before discarding you.
It’s an amazing thing after being with an EU or AC! i didn’t quite know what to make of it at first. It was like discovering sliced bread!
Just trust your instincts and don’t rush into anything.
Hugs! 🙂
Thanks Minky! When you say “when you find a decent guy you will be able to talk to him about things like this…” the thing is I thought I had, he showed me his divorce papers, I met his kids, he took care of me when I was ill, in short we had a wonderful time together, and I thought a deep connection. And then it began to change, toward the end of our relationship he began to disappear and eventually stopped contact altogether This after 8 months spent together. Then I read all the experiences of women here, compare them to my long, dismal track record, and basically retreat from the dating battle field once again. Occasionally I toy with the idea of getting back out there, and then I just think, “really, what is the point?” Perhaps it’s defeatist but it is protective! Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to my post. hugs back.
done, no matter how vigilant we are not every relationship is going to work out. i do suspect some fast forwarding in your case. but even if he was genuine, it can still not work out. it’s a risk we have to take.
when he started disappearing did you confront him or let the thing drag on for a few more months? if you could have got it down to, say, less than six months I personally would consider that a swift escape. and eight months isn’t too bad in the grand scheme of things.
Thanks Grace – Yes going back over that relationship and picking it apart, there was fast forwarding – it was very intense in the beginning. At the time, I attributed it – and the disappearing to a cultural difference between us – stupid on my part. Since then I have been asked out twice – once by someone who revealed at the very end of the coffee that he actually had a five month old baby at home with his partner… but started with the “she doesn’t share my dreams…” drivel. ABORT MISSION. Never saw him again. Following that was a colleague who just straight up creeped me out. My gut told me he was trying to possess and control me. Instituted NC on him. So, all that to say, these experiences combined with reading all of the stories here make me so jaded about dating and men. It absolutely gobsmacks me how many are married and looking for something on the side, or just out of a marriage and looking for #2 no matter who she is, or a shoulder to cry on. The investment of any time at all seems like a waste. But I am still here reading! xo
Indeed – sometimes things don’t work out, even with the best of men.
I was in a healthy, loving, relationship for 6 years. We got together really young and eventually drifted apart as we discovered we wanted different things in life. I was the one who eventually left, after much soul searching, and it enbded very amicably and we are still friends to this day. I am sure i was very distant with him in the end because i knew the relationship wasn’t right for me (I had never been with an EUM or AC before that), even though y ex is a wonderful man. It happens, even when you start off very much in love.
As grace says, it’s the risk you take. I got involved with the EUM because i was EU myself after the stress of leaving my healthy relationship. Now i am with a really good guy who treats me well. It may not work out with him for many reasons, but i am really happy right now and i think it’s worth the risk, even though i get spooked a lot and think he might turn into an AC overnight, because of what i went through with the EUM! Like NML always says to me when i have one of my freakouts ‘to love is to be vulnerable’. You just have to decide whether it’s worth it or not.
Alice, I know you didn’t mean it to be but the snack bar story is hilarious! Wish my first red flag had been as tame – my ex AC told me he thought he was a sex addict on the second date!! I think I my continuing to see him was temporary insanity, desparation or evidence of just how lacking I was in values and boundaries (or a combination of them all). My capacity for living on illusions shocks me. But, I continue to learn and grow. 🙂
I got plenty of laughs at his antics alright, but anger would probably have been a healthier response. Once he bought me a bottle of perfume while on holidays (without me of course). I opened it in his place and oohed and ahhed. When it was time to leave, it was nowhere to be found. He had swiped and hidden it! Took a fancy to it himself it seems. So the next few times I saw him, he reeked of ladies perfume 🙂
Now that’s just too funny!!! 🙂 We need a time to all post up our stories about the ‘Winners’ haha, so at least if nothing else we can all have a good chuckle out of them lol….
Alice you have me in fits of laughter! Does that mean if we see a guy with two snickers bars in his mouth, smelling wonderful… its this guy! Thanks for the forewarning!
Talking about perfume: I asked him once on the phone what the name of the cologne is that he was wearing and he said: I don’t know, let me look at the bottle – comes back and said: I don’t know how to pronounce it, I said just spell it to me and he spelled:
“pour homme” ?
Astelle,
Sounds as sophisticated as mine.
He told me he had purchased haricot verts. I couldn’t understand what the hell he was saying, as he was pronouncing it as if it were English. This idiot took cooking classes and should have known better.
Fools!
I think the main problem for me, especially now that I’ve encountered an EUM, is how to know they are really being themselves in this early discovery phase?
I have the strange fortune of actually being friends with the girl he was also dating at the same time as me. The girl and I were in the same group class where the EUM was last year when we both met him, but we never spoke to each other until January of this year. Over discussing our recent relationship experiences, we found out we had both dated the same EUM – and he overlapped us during an entire month. He never told either of us he was dating other people, and he led both of us to believe that he was too busy to have other people in the picture.
Looking back, each of us saw red flags but what gets me here is he played two different games with us. For her, he actively pursued her, called her a lot, told her he wanted to see her on many many occassions, and their relationship quickly ended up in the bedroom. For me, I was the one who asked him out on the first date after getting signals/hints from him, he would only make contact with me once a week if I was lucky, he would talk of dates we should go on but would never initiate them himself, and he never pressured me into sex. To her, he was acting like a confident man who knew what he wanted and would do what needed to be done to get it. To me, he was acting like a shy guy who had good intentions but needed a push to get where he wanted to be.
We got two different previews of the same guy. Both seemed honest. Yes, in both cases, the same red flags were hidden beneath the surface and in the end his true colours came out – we found out he backed away from both of us when both of us started calling him out on his wishy washy behaviour and expected him to step up to the plate.
But when you’re still getting to know someone in this discovery phase what if what you are discovering is all a lie? And you become attracted to that lie, and decide to go into a relationship based on that lie? I guess that is my main concern when I think of going back into the dating scene.
TeaTime, I feel it’s my duty to tell you the truth. I had to read your comment three times to confirm that I really hadn’t misunderstood anything because when you said “To me, he was acting like a shy guy who had good intentions ” I spluttered my drink. In what universe was this man acting like a shy guy with good intentions?
TeaTime, this is an example how as women we make up reasons to justify 1) why we’re involved and 2) why the guy is pulling some rinky dink bullshit behaviour. This man is anything but shy. You really think a shy guy could pull the strokes that he was?
Every time a woman tells me that they asked out a guy, they tell me it’s because he was shy. Your guy was a half interested man that showed it. He wasn’t making contact once a week because he’s shy – he was too busy getting his end away elsewhere. If you hadn’t pursued this guy, nothing would have happened. That’s very telling.
Thank you for your response Natalie. You are absolutely right on all points, and yes now that I am working on myself I’m looking back on it and I can clearly see he was nowhere near who I thought he was! He was only spending time with me because I was someone who could give him that easy ego stroke when he felt like it.
At the time though I really did believe this, and I created all sorts of excuses to justify his behaviour that showed otherwise. I would notice the red flags, but the way he spoke to me and how he treated me when we met up would put all those doubts of mine to one side. I attributed my feelings of alarm to my own commitment-phobic tendencies I had in my past and wrote them off.
What universe? Yes, it is such a good question that I have been working on. After all, I knew that if my friends came up to me and told me this I would have shaken them by their shoulders and told them to snap out of it! I’ve been working with a counsellor and she’s helped me realize that I was holding onto him with white nuckles because I met him at a time when everything else in my life was falling apart. I desparately needed something in my life that was reminiscent of what I defined as having a good life, and to me that was having a boyfriend whether he was a gentleman or an absolute jerk.
I guess I am just concerned I am going to fall into the same trap again. As of now, thanks to your blog and counselling and working on myself, I can sit here and say I won’t let someone like him into my life ever again. But I have also read the comments from other ladies here who have mentioned how men have treated them even nicer than my EUM ever did, and they still got burnt in the end. I know you say to keep your eyes and ears wide open, but what if they are so good at the game that you don’t realize you’re in it until much later on?
Tea Time and everyone
My brother is very shy, one of the shyest people I know yet he dated, proposed to and married his wife.
Shy people go to school, pass exams, get jobs, keep jobs, order food in restaurants, buy stuff, put offers in on houses, get married, have sex, have children.
They can ask you out, I promise.
Love it!
Shyness is no reason not to fully question whats going on during the initial dating phase…Shy guys can also be dreadfully emotionally unavailable just as gregarious extroverts can come on through as loyal loving partners. It’s values which are important and whether shy or not you’re both on same page in the potential relationship.
Thanks for your comments ladies. I know, it’s one of those things I used as an excuse – “Oh, he is so shy! Here, let me do all the work for him…” I think part of what threw me off was the illusion of common values. In our conversations, we touched on religion, family, politics and we were on what appeared to be the same page (now I’m not so sure anymore since I can’t trust anything he told me). He would talk about his family and his close relationship with his mother and siblings. He would even encourage me to continue my education, since we both agreed higher education is important though I was having trouble with my thesis at the time. When the bad behaviour came up, I used these as yet another reason to brush them off. This is also where my illusion of a “good intentioned guy, but needing a push” came from.
TT
Shared values isn’t quite the same as having the same religious beliefs or political views. I’m sure lots of people who value education can be EUM. I’ll even hazard that they can be among the worst.
Are they reliable? Do they treat you with respect? Do they do what they say they will do? Do they have self-awareness? Can they talk about emotions (and yes I’ve done this with lots of guys just not the ones I was dating). Are they supportive when you are sick, you’ve got family problems or work problems? Will they put themselves out for you? On the negative side – do they make derogatory comments about women? About marriage? About relationships in general? Are they arrogant, closed off or touchy?
But did you even ask this guy if he was single or seeing someone? Cos if you didn’t all the above is academic – you would (if he’d answered honestly), have just aborted mission
Yeah Teatime, I really get what your saying… with me the hooks were shared love of books, film,art,humour too etc. I saw this sensitivity as common ground and thought it meant he would be sensitive to my feelings in a general all round good guy kind of way. What you say about common values has confused me slightly…I think we can all have different politics,views on religion, family issues but the core relationship values between you have to gel. That is, you have to be on the same page re commitment,fidelity,where the relationship may potentially be going, trust etc. That’s the big lesson I’ve learned/am learning from this site.xxx
Lynda…you and Teatime need to read up on the common interests and values – it doesn’t matter if you both like jumping off mountains every weekend, dressing up in high heels, drinking fine wine and listening to Pavarotti – if you don’t have shared *values* not *interests* your relationship will fail and you will experience a disconnect between your professed common ground and how they treat you or the outlook for your relationship.
One of the biggest danger zones of relationships is this assumption that because you have shared interests and feel attracted to them, that they must possess shared values because we assume we wouldn’t have something in common with someone who didn’t – trust me, assholes have hobbies and interests too. Don’t get it twisted.
Great post Natalie and great comments. I learn so much from you all. Like some of you, I have never truly dated even though I’ve been married three times and been a mistress twice…I’m not that woman anymore, however. From the time I was 20 years-old to 40 years-old, I seemed to have gone from the bedroom to the altar before I realized what had happened. I’m not even sure if I had dinner in between! Then I spent from 40 to 50 making sure I didn’t get married again by being involved with married men. That’s a sure fire way to avoid the altar and create a ton of lying, decietful, and miserable years. Thus, I’m not planning to date any time soon but as I have the long conversations with myself, I see that I’ve made the mistake of thinking common interests were common values, not that I’ve had any values in the past. As I think about my core values now, honesty emerges as number one. That ought to take care of any future-faking, fast-forwarding married and/or attached men. However since dating as a discovery phase must cut both ways, here is my question/thought: How would I remain in my newfound integrity, be honest, and talk about my dodgy past to a decent man without sending him running screaming into the night? Surely, my past would be a giant red flag to a decent man? Therefore, am I doomed?
Runner
I don’t think you need to tell them about the affairs in detail – just say you made some mistakes but wouldn’t do it again? But you need to fess up to the marriages – they’re a matter of public record anyway and it’s up to him to decide if it’s relevant. I’d wait until you know each other fairly well but before sex. Be open about it, take it seriously but there’s no need to be ashamed. Have some insight into why you did it and what you’ve learned. We’ve all made mistakes Hopefully your consistent and mature actions will speak louder than your past. .
I feel in this area most men are less judgemental than women and don’t analyse so much. They take things as they see them. If he sees an honest, consistent, reliable, trustworthy person he will accept that (provided it’s what he wants – some men and women prefer the drama and high jinks of dealing with the emotionally unavailable). Men – they’re not all bad you know, lol!
You’re only as doomed as you think you are.
For some reason I feel that talking about what ended past relationships is an opportune time to disclose my boundaries in a way that gets the message across! You may not have known at the time that it ended because of a crossed boundary but in retrospect you can now see it very clearly. I plan to bring the full force of what happened to end past relationships to light as a beacon to any prospective companions! Of course the minute sordid details would not be disclosed as its not something I choose to talk about with him or anybody else.
Thank you for your responses. Of course, the 3 prior marriages are a matter of public record and not something I regret. I learned a ton from each marriage and my past is a part of my present which is very different. I do not resent or regret the three past marriages. I’m resentful and at the regret stage regarding the two affairs. You are right Getbusyliving, in hindsight, ex MM #2 finally crossed my boundaries and I finally opted out, admitttedly my boundaries were barely there.
Thanks Grace…I’ll make sure my actions are consistent with being honest, open, trustworthy, reliable, and consistent. Since I’m not on the dating circuit, I’ll have time to make sure that my actions are consistent with my words before I pollute the dating pool with another EUW.
As I think someone mentioned, maybe there’s something to this quality of equating/viewing interests as values thing that is perhaps a clue or a signal that you’re dealing with an EUM. I’ve met men who seem very intent on finding out whether he and I have the same hobbies, activities. While I think that doesn’t really matter so much. We’re bound to enjoy spending time doing certain things together, and it should be ok for me not to enjoy doing certain activities that he likes, and vice-versa. After all, among other things, I like to spend time fixing my hair and make-up and trying on different outfits and accessories. I don’t expect a boyfriend candidate to need to also enjoy doing that activity. In fact that would put me off. What a lot of men don’t seem to understand is it’s ok if we don’t like to do all the same activities. Maybe he likes horse riding, weight lifting, hunting, or racing race cars or hot-rodding around on a motorcycle. Fine! Have fun. Don’t expect me to be a clone of you! A lot of them though do seem to want to find a girl who participates avidly in all the same activities that they do. It seems like these men are only looking for a male buddy, who happens to have breasts and a vagina. Possibly they’re not able to handle a woman.
“It seems like these men are only looking for a male buddy, who happens to have breasts and a vagina. Possibly they’re not able to handle a woman.”
Oh Melanie, I literally laughed out loud when I read that! I do agree with you though, and looking back on my EUM’s behaviour I can see how he was trying to make me like things he did. It was always about him, in every word he said and action he did. They are narcissists, so if they can find a woman who reflects back all their interests I think that’s the best deal for them.
You are so very right, I had got them all mixed up! I guess this goes to show my lack of relationship experience. I will definitely read up on your posts related to this topic and make sure I drill this difference into my head. Thanks Natalie!
Here’s a really good way to distinguish between your core values and secondary values which is superficial stuff and common interests. Values are about what you need in order to live your life happily and authentically. You’ll know if you share the common values if what you profess to be what you had in common made a huge difference to your relationship. I don’t doubt that religion, politics, family etc *are* important to you, and may even be part of your core values, but they were not shared and deep enough for you to have a genuine common ground that added value to your relationship. If what you believe were your shared values didn’t help to keep you together, trust me when I say that you didn’t have that much in common. And to be honest, even if you did have those things in common, he didn’t act right so they meant nada.
From my experience, I’d also say that ACs are often very good at emphasizing common interests and directing your focus onto those. They might even fake them to some extend. Or they might deliberately pick women who seem to be similar to them in that regard. Don’t forget, they usually have a lot of experience because they do this very often.
How about a guy who eats a whole box of ice creams bars (over a few days) when the bars were brought to you by your mom for a physical injury you suffered, and the EU/AC didn’t even tell you that your mom had brought them for you, though he was told to do so?
Brutal! But makes a funny story.
Wow, how bad is that? He could just go buy his own box of ice cream bars. Geesh! How old is this guy?
36.
this is hilarious!
Note (for what it’s worth): we had been living together (for 10 months), and were engaged previously, at the time.
One of my first boyfriends (about 13 years ago) didn’t give me any birthday presents, confused the date of my birthday and didn’t help me carrying my boxed when I moved out for college (even if he lived very close to my new place). However, he had very precise ideas about how I was supposed to change my looks for him: Lose 30 pounds, dye my hair, wear only high heels (he said I was too short), get tatoos and pircings.
I dumped him after three months, but believe it or not, I felt “guilty” and “selfish” for not doing what he wanted. I hated my body and looks after that and went on a desperate diet. A little bit of this embarrasing feeling is still there, even now. And I didn’t even love him!
It’s amazing what those guys can do to you if you have no boundaries. No matter the age.
I know now that if I hadn’t been into my ex’s status, money and power, I never would have rationalized away the lateness, rudeness, power tripping and general shallowness that ALL showed themselves on the first date. A ‘regular’ guy pulling that stuff would have been toast immediately. I did go slowly letting him into my life, and kept my self-respect in many ways that I am so glad I did. I will go even slower next time.
I kept telling myself that I over time I would ‘discover’ my own self-confidence and that it was my own issues and self-effacement that was teaching him how to treat me; therefore it was ‘my fault’ he was treating me as he did and I had to learn how to show him I was worth treating well.
What I discovered was not so much about him, it was about my own judgment and my own motivations. I made the call on his character after date one, I just didn’t act on those observations til almost a year later. I “discovered” that he stayed the same person as he was in the beginning, right til the end. I also discovered the eventual compounded pain of rationalizing away the initial pain of that early discovery and disappointment.
Eventually I discovered I could act in my own interests.
From now on I look forward to discovering all the ways I say yes to the solid, no to the dodgy, and to discovering the million ways to love myself that I never knew existed.
By the way, in response to some of the posts on this thread about getting involved too quickly, NML reminds us often to love ourselves: which I am interpreting these days as “acting like I’m in love with myself.” When I’m busy treating myself well (remembering things I have to do, meeting obligations, scheduling time to be with friends, eating properly, keeping myself entertained and challenged), getting to know someone has to fit MY schedule. I’m on Project Me.
The only reason to keep dating someone is if their company contributes to the good life I’m creating for myself. How could any new person, who I don’t even know, merit dumping all the other things I’m doing for me — after only a couple dates? When I’m living a life that feels awesome to me, someone has to EARN their way into sharing big chunks of it.
I feel that way about my best friends and hope they feel that way about me: that we earned our way, slowly, into each others’ hearts and lives.
Magnolia (formerly Lynn)
That is a good way to look at things Magnolia to see how they contribute to your life and they don’t deserve large chunks of your time in the early stages of dating.
One thing I’m very guilty of is being too available always ready to dump what I had planned and the few times I couldn’t change my plans for him I thought I’d lost him what twisted deluded thinking. I need a complete overhaul in my thinking.
Thank you for the food for thought.
Welcome back Magnolia. I hope you reclaimed all of NYC for you. Your comments are so thought provoking and inspirational like so many others. Thank you.
I’m still at the phase of wondering how I let the future-faking MM take over the life I used to have. I thought I had an awesome life but I ditched it in order to be an option in his life. But, I’m slowly working my way back to having my life again, meeting my obligations, and hanging out with friends and family (thank goodness they stuck out the last two years with me). I’m not doing so well at eating properly or keeping myself entertained. Presently, I’m just not in the mood to eat or do much in the entertainment arena. I’m working on my classes, being quiet, and healing.
I do know, I’ll never dump my plans to be at his beck and call should he get a spare moment.
Thank you and welcome back. You sound great and are such an inspiration.
I have been on a couple of dates with a guy we have been chatting before hand for a couple of months so got to know him abit had some really deep chats he has good values repects women and is always there for his family and friends! we met up got on really well he was a real gent opened doors for me! not like guys ive met before I know he want to settle down kids the whole thing as I do! but there just isnt that spark or attraction from my side! I keep thinking if it will come in time as I know he is a nice guy and wouldnt muck me around! im stuck as what to do carry on meeting up or not is attraction and spark more important or how they treat u as a person im confussed!
posh
this is tricky. i feel that the spark (especially for us girls on here) is the challenge of winning over a man who is a bit wild, a bit bad, a bit .. unavailable. but then again there has to be some attraction.
if the spark has always turned out badly for you, maybe the spark isn’t a good indication of who you should be with. as long as he is not repulsive to you, it’s worth pursuing a bit further. that’s my two cents.
Posh, I’m a bit half and half here. One part of me is like ‘It’s been two fricking dates!’. The heavens are not about to open, harps playing, angels a singing. The people you’ve felt immediate spark with or within 2 dates – were they healthy partners? If not, your idea of ‘spark’ may be the danger of an assclown fire being lit…
The other half of me is saying ‘Just because you want to settle down and not date unavailables and assclowns, doesn’t mean that the first decent guy you meet must take up residence’. Who cares if he opens doors? Are we at an all time low as women where we applaud some basic manners. You can’t just be with someone because he wouldn’t muck you around – he deserves better than this.
Either give it a few dates and see how it goes or opt out. There are other men on the planet and make sure that what you find attractive is healthy and if it’s not get it addressed.
Posh … don’t carry this on, if there is no spark at this stage now, there never will be and no amount of thinking “he’s a nice or good or reliable guy” will ever make up for a lack of spark.
Take it from one who knows – been there … Misery all round. You will be “searching” for someone else who does give you that butterflies feeling in your tummy and when he comes along, your nice guy will get hurt. Hope this helps. Lola x
Thanks Natalie, but I thought that was what I was saying…if you check my post to Teatime again? I was totally and foolishly blown away by the interest hook and have realised over last few days that we were practically in different relationships in tems of where it was all heading,his level of investment in me,our ability to communicate with anything like honesty…? My previous post accepts my delusion, doesn’t embrace it. Sorry but I think you’ve picked me up wrongly. Lynds
Thanks – I was actually addressing the comment to the both of you (Teatime also) and suggesting the subject matter for reading up further but apologies if you feel that I’m telling you that you’re deluded. That certainly wasn’t what I stated or intended to imply!
Great post.I think you wrote for me as well,with all my latest goings on.I discovered today that the guy I was interested in and had two dates with, is an EUM with a lot of issues and baggage.A nice guy,not an AC [for once] but wow,the lure of the familiar! The turbulent seesawing of emotions,the desire to fix,heal,help,the sensation of fast forwarding into familiar relationship insanity.I experienced it all.But instead of rushing in there,I held my nerve and bowed out.With so much more grace than I’ve ever done before. So,though I feel sad,I feel ok.He’s starting to be clingy though,so I need to keep my wits about me not to give in.I feel a huge pull of gravity towards it,gotta keep pulling away. So dating,not only is discovery,but valuable practice in sticking to boundaries.Especially,when still a novice at dating with boundaries.
I’ve thought a great deal about dating lately and here’s my two cents.
1.There has to be attraction.Otherwise you’re fooling two people,you and your date.
2.Not too much time should elapse between dates.You need to keep seeing the person in the flesh to continue your discovery.If weeks go by between dates,you build the whole thing up in your head and the fantasy relationship takes off.The more you see,the more you know.But the other extreme must be avoided too.Guys,in particular can get claustrophobic and that’s real spooky.Striking a balance is crucial.
Thanks Natalie,looking forward to more posts on dating.
Like most the women that post here, I ignored red flags because I didn’t want to be mean or I doubted my own judgment.
My first red flag with one guy was he did not like talking on the phone. He relied on oodles of emails and text messages. I don’t know about you, but that doesn’t feel REAL what with just words on a screen. So, it quickly became about what HE wanted. When we did talk on the phone it was usually by my requesting it. I just handed myself over to him!
My next and what should have been my final red flag was when I walked into his home. Now, I’m not the tidiest person ever and I don’t mind a little mess. I have books and papers here and shoes strewn there. But as soon as I stepped foot into his living room, I literally felt my insides quietly say “no no no no no”. He had various piles of “stuff” in his floor he hadn’t moved in years. Crap on top of crap. He had just enough room to move around the couch and desk area. Luckily his bathroom was clean. I just wished I would have listened to my insides when it told me by the way I felt: NO! Instead, I went along doing things his way until he booted me out.
“I just handed myself over to him!”
This rang a bell with me colororange – I feel that I did the same with my last ‘relationship’. He didn’t like to call either! And was really busy – genuinely, but still he didn’t make me a priority like I did him. I thought ‘this is just what you do when you care about someone’, without stopping to notice that I was the only one doing. Yes he let me into his life, but I made sure I was the perfect houseguest. It’s exhausting even thinking about it…
I’m easy going and a ‘pleaser’ so this is a pattern I need to be aware of and watch but yeah… must not ‘hand myself over’ to someone I hardly know. Or anyone really I guess. Hands off, it’s mine! 🙂 xx
@Emma
Yeah, I look back and see where I knowingly did things I did not want to do, but was afraid I’d lose him otherwise. TADA! He’s gone anyway. I was afraid to say no.
There’s a fear in me that if I say no, piss someone off that I like, they’ll leave. So I let my boundaries get stepped all over and become a doormat. Or confused on what my boundaries are and question what I’m feeling.
It would seem, though, that if I can’t say no to someone then they don’t need to be in my life anyway. Why would i want anyone that only wants to be around if they can get what they want and hit the road?
@colororange
Yes – I know exactly what you mean. I am very certain about what is or is not ok when I’m not in a relationship or it’s not ‘my situation’ that I’m talking about. If a friend was being treated like that, I would be indignant.
But when it’s me and I like someone, I get confused about whether this behaviour is actually that bad. I doubt myself, I look for clarification elsewhere. And ultimately, I don’t leave even though I should. Months after the last one ended that’s what keeps me up at night – not that he’s not around, not that it didn’t work out, but that I didn’t have enough respect for myself to leave and he had to do it for me. He wasn’t a bad guy, just incapable.
It is hard to remember yourself when you’re so concentrated on pleasing someone else. We all want to be liked and I think we should be our best selves when getting to know someone, but shouldn’t betray our beliefs or hide who we are.
Wow, a most insightful article, thank you! I think one of the difficulties women face, in general, in the dating/relationship game is that women tend to be far more emotionally aware, which in itself is both a blessing and a curse. Whilst the initial red flags are there early on, we all have some baggage that we carry, so reacting to the first one or two red flags as a knee-jerk reaction would be almost bordering on relationship paranoia. We have to give it some amount of time, unfortunately, and some investment emotionally and with the heart, in so giving, one can then experience. Over time and with experience, we then have enough information in order to be able to make a choice: whether to stay and continue to invest or whether to leave. Our own boundaries, values, honesty and openness with ourselves is then truly tested… after all, it’s recognising the difference between reality and fantasy or what our hopes/dreams are. If the two can’t gel, it’s time to leave… or if you choose to stay, recognise that you yourself have made that choice. I would far rather be single and appreciate myself for who I am than be with someone for the wrong reasons and be treated in a less than acceptable way that is not congruent with my own values.
Yes, it hurts, yes, it’s sad when after a number of months and blissful moments we’re suddenly faced with having to make that decision and we feel like we’re left licking our wounds, but ultimately, we’ve learned something valuable about ourselves which we otherwise would not have learned. We need to cut ourselves some slack – after all, without the valuable experiences and time and necessary investment, we wouldn’t be able to come to the conclusion.
I have invested 10 months of my time in my current relationship and did fall in love with the projection of the person I thought he was – the illusion – however, enough experience has now shown me that he isn’t that person, so it’s time to withdraw. In looking at it from his point of view, I will not take it personally – he didn’t set out to set us up, he was simply not as grounded or aware or perhaps even honest enough to admit to himself that what he wanted was simply a companion and plaster to see him through his own pain/loss of his past relationship.
inthedark
it would depend on the red flag as to whether you are being paranoid. and also your definition of a red flag. to me, being a bit mean with money isn’t quite a red flag (I’ll happily spend hundreds of pound on something large but dither over £2 for a nail polish), nor is living with his mother though i would be on alert. but if he is married, or seeing someone or – in your case- not over the ex (depends on how well he hides it) i don’t consider it paranoia to just flee without further investigation.
Hi Grace – yes, we do all have our own versions of what a red flag is to us… I guess it’s more about, as you say, how well he hides it – that is, how honest he is with himself and in turn, with the other party. A little red flag might pop up early on, which, on its own, cannot really be acted upon – you may have a hunch and feel slightly uncomfortable with a comment made or something, but it’s not until a few weeks or months down the line when something similar happens again that it becomes more of an issue and a real red flag. That’s what I meant by a kneejerk/paranoia-type reaction.
It’s important to keep in mind (i will be doing so from here on in) that just because a guy says something (which is usually to butter us up) it doesn’t mean he actually means it.
The ex-assclown told me he was a Christian (i thought this was great, he’ll surely be honest and decent and have values) and I couldn’t have been more wrong.
You see, any guy can talk the talk but can he walk the walk? in other words, do his actions mirror his words, and above all, does he have good values. For me, this is the biggest thing I have learned. Just because a guy appears to have values (by what he says) it doesn’t mean he has values.
Emotionally unavailables are extremely good at saying what you want to hear – that’s how they manage to keep roping women in to their lives – they know exactly what to say.
Audrey: So true, and even more so for ACs than for EUMs, I think. I personally believe that most ACs are narcissistic in some ways, and malignant narcissists basically spend all their lives manipulating others. They are addicted to the “power rush” they get from this. Their victims might believe they are able to read their minds, but they aren’t. Tell me about it. I should know better, but I seem to experiene this over and over again anyway.
Normal people (which I hope I am) are simply lacking experience, because they don’t spend all their lives messing with other people’s brains like narcs do. Plus, normal people are too decent to imagine all the bad things a narc is willing to do.
I hope I don’t sound rude or insensitive, putting it bluntly like this.
Audrey: I’m sorry you had this bad experience. It’s certainly easy to trust somebody who claims to have “Christian values”, but basically, this can be a scam just as much as anything else.
I think you – and we all – should look for the values represented by their behavior towards us, and not the ones they put in words or they (apparently) show towards others. I think Natalie has mentioned that frequently. If they don’t treat us according to their “values”, it’s quite likely not our fault, no matter how they make it look like.
EllyB: Absolutely, i was lacking experience so so true! I don’t play games with the people in my life. I dont think you’re insensitive or rude- you are on the ball!
The way the assclown treated me was beyond my comprehension. Nat made a connection between narcissists and assclowns and says that assclowns have narcissistic tendancies . It was when I looked up narcissists after reading one of Nat’s posts that the penny dropped for me. I was quite shocked by the discovery – Ilooked like i had seen a ghost!! LOL… but it was good to finally be able to understand why he acted the way he did.
Audrey,
Yes, I know what that is like, assuming things about them because they are a Christian. My ex-husband and I were very involved in our church. I found out early in our marriage that he had extracurricular, extramarital activities he enjoyed on the side. In fact, he had been enjoying those activities long before he met me, but didn’t bother to tell me. I actually believed he was honest and upstanding, and he was always respectful of going too far physically before we were married. It was quite an act he had going. As far as I could tell, even now, years later, his actions did match his words while we were dating. What does that make him, an AC, EUM, or something else entirely?
@ICanDoBetter- It makes him the farthest thing from a christian you could get…
I know, how can these guys go to church, say their christian and be so duplicitous – lying cheating and faking who they are? Your ex showed a complete lack of conscience also which is so dangerous – if a person doesn’t have much of a conscience, it allows them do and say anything they please.
Actually him saying he was christian was one of the things that made me give him a chance in the first place. I’m much wiser than i was a few months ago that’s for sure!!!
Jesus said “beware of the wolf in sheep’s clothing”. i think he was referring to narcissists and liars/cheaters, etc. Because they do come clothed in light don’t they?
Nat – I have another question for you and this might be the subject for a future post. I’ve been thinking a lot about dating and guys who grill you about your past (ie: number of relationships, sexual partners etc.) in a way that puts you on the defensive. It feels as though you have to A. prove yourself to them, and B. justify yourself/former actions. It has been my observation that more often than not, the men who do this, turn out to have hidden something themselves, and so I suspect are deflecting attention away from them. The best defense is a good offense strategy. Sorry this is off post, but it is part of the dating/discovery process, but I don’t think I’ve seen this listed as a red flag. What are your thoughts on it?
done as dinner & runnergirl
I agree, about a need for a post n this please NML… Having been Married once and my relationships lasting an average of 1.5 years, almost uncannily… at 37 when I speak to a date (not that I’m dating yet) it would feel real awkward to dislose all this without being judged very badly… I think men are worse at jusdging than women, less empathetic and wanting the proverbial virgin. I think they hate knowing about past blokes -although they always ask! I know i dont need to give all the details but it’s difficult to know what to say for the best. ALSO when they ask, Why did that relationship end, or that one end? etc etc. No relationship is going to en for a good reason and I hate going into detail on this. Yet they may often ask this question…
lost
how funny, my experience is completely different to yours. i’ve only ever had one man ask about my past relationships and he simply wanted to know the number, which he thought was low. i don’t find men any more judgemental than women and maybe less so (if only because they can be very matter-of-fact whereas we analyse stuff TO DEATH). i’ve empathised with plenty over the years. helps that i have brothers, a brother-in-law and have got on very well with lots of male colleagues. (shame about the men i chose to date).
it’s not that one of us is right and one of us is wrong. there are SO MANY men out there, both of our experiences are valid. however, i do think it’s better to be optimistic. it just presents a more positive aura. and you don’t need to apologise for your existence or your experience. if they don’t like it they can bog off.
i have suffered from recurrent depression and terrible anxiety. i’ve been very cynical about relationships and men but i’ve done a 180. i may be living in a fool’s paradise but at least i’m waaay happier. and being anxious didn’t get me anywhere so i’m trying something new.
to address your specific concerns – i would have a “press release” type statement along the lines of “we didn’t communicate well, drifted apart and ended up divorced. but i would do things differently now, ive learned a lot” or whatever else is truthful without going into all the gory details.
i would worry less about what they think of you and what judgements they will make. believe that they’re lucky to get the chance to know you! you’re terrific!
grace
Thank you grace for this, your practical ‘press release’ gives me a fantastic starting point with which to think about what’s best to say. And essentailly less detail is better, whenver i’ve given any more detail i think they’ve always asked me down for it. Yes I guess we have met different types of questions on dates. Your post is Very helpful 🙂 thanks again
Runnergirl, Done as dinner, LostEnergy et al, I’ve covered this topic somewhat here:
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/revealing-your-past/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/no-ex-on-the-first-date/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/coping-with-past-relationships/
and will certainly cover again in time but here is the facts in essence:
We only worry about telling people things that we fear being judged about because you would judge someone else for the same thing. How you choose to handle telling partners about your past will be governed largely by how healthily engaged and honest you are – I write about my past and the boyf is well aware of it. He knew not long after we got together that I’d been involved with the guy with the girlfriend. It wasn’t an issue because aside from recognising my mistakes, I had grown out of them and demonstrated this and continue to. This is one of the reasons why I keep saying to people not to date until you have grown *enough* that you are in a healthy, positive place and can own you, with the good, bad, and in between.
You are all painting yourself into a corner – you think if you tell them you’ll be judged, but you recognise that being deceptive isn’t honest either. You have a mentality of being ‘broken’ ‘problematic’ or ‘likely to be judged’ – that affects your actions. You need to handle your beliefs in this area – if you believe you will be judged, trust me when I say that no matter what they say or do, you will feel judged.
You are putting virtual strangers on a pedestal like you’re ‘unworthy’ because you’ve been married a few times or haven’t had a long term relationship or whatever.
I’ve actually only been in a relationship with one, decent relationship worthy person – the boyf. Every ex was emotionally unavailable, some were assclowns. There were some nice guys I dated briefly. My point is, if I allowed myself to be defined by my relationships, I’d still be dating assclowns and unavailables and I certainly wouldn’t have felt ‘worthy’ of being with him. He has his own past – I’m not judging him, so why am I assuming I should be judged? We’re human, we make mistakes – we have to get over ourselves.
Anyone who cannot get past your past is not someone with who a relationship can proceed – if they can’t past your past, that’s not the issue. The issue is wanting to control something that they can’t and having an inability to judge the relationship on its own merits.
I also got the sense that you all seem to think you need to give a blow by blow account of your relationships and why they ended – why the hell do you need to get into the nitty gritties? The desire to explain comes from the desire to justify – do you expect partners to explain and justify previous actions to you? Be very careful of verbal diarrhea.
We broke up because we realised we both wanted different things.
We broke up because we just didn’t get on.
We broke up because things fizzled out.
We broke up because long distance was hard going and neither of us were going to move.
We broke up because we were together for a long time but it became clear it wasn’t going to go to the next level.
We broke up because they weren’t ready to commit.
We broke up because I wasn’t ready to commit.
We broke up because I realised she was expecting to get engaged, move in etc, and I realised that it wasn’t what I wanted.
These explanations don’t go beyond 20 words and particularly for someone you hardly know, are more than adequate.
There wasn’t a breakup – we’d only been on a few dates. Sometimes these things just don’t work out.
We broke up because, to be truthful, over time it came to light that they weren’t the person that they’d initially claimed to be which signaled that it was time for me to opt out.
No I haven’t had relationships beyond 18 months, but being totally honest, I wasn’t at that point where I was ready for it to go into long term – I am now.
No I haven’t met anyone I liked enough to marry them.
Once upon a time, I was foolish enough to get involved with a married guy. I totally regret it and no it wasn’t my finest hour. I wouldn’t ever make that mistake again. Why did it happen? Well, I guess I wasn’t in a good place and I think it helped me avoid the pain of a breakup. It was a total departure from the norm. Anyway, enough about that – why did you break up with your ex?
The short explanation is where to start. When you’ve finished, leave it at that and stay silent or ask them the same question. If you don’t know them very well, I certainly would keep it light and brief and any levels of disclosure should be matched by the initiator of the conversation. Hence if you grill about the past, expect a grilling back. If they ask deep questions, expect them to be receptive to answering the same.
I’ve been married three times so needless to say I’ve learned a lot along the way about myself and what is needed for a lasting relationship. In retrospect, I realise I’ve been hasty to get married (or whatever the big thing is you’ve learned) and will certainly go slower.
Thanks Natalie. You are so right about painting myself into a corner for fear of being judged and I do have some work to do coming to grips with my past. Just reading your response has helped tremendously. I read the three articles you linked and they are great. No ex’s on the first dates solves the problem. And like you say, if they can’t get past my past, the relationship cannot proceed (assuming a relationship developed). I loved your responses. So perfect. I have learned a lot from my past and I don’t need to explain or justify. Oddly, it was ex MM that made me jittery. He would say that he didn’t want to be 4 ex. Now, he doesn’t have to worry about that anymore!
NML, Thank you for this, I’ve had a look at those links too. And what you’ve written above is really helpful especially the practical example statements. It’s helped to put my mind at rest … and yes if someone asks too many questions on ex stuff on a first or first few dates it does make me feel uneasy. But as you say too much probing early on could be a red flag. A guy I met in a pub a couple of months ago asked me a few ex Q’s. For some reason I quite often get asked: ‘why are you single?’ Perhaps I should just look at this as compliment rather than criticism. Thanks again Nat & for all your Gems! 🙂
Thankyou for the comments 🙂 has help
I received text last night from him asking me were he stands with me do I see him as a boyfriend or friends? I am thinking this is a greenflag to ask this question after just 2 dates! And I do feel pressured now and don’t like that feeling!
I think its best to go with my gut feeling as it’s not feeling good! Now
A text? All relationship defining should be done in person. At the very least, in a phone conversation.
BF or Friend? Is he trying to Fast Forward you? BFs and some other Friends often include ‘benefits. ‘
If you are still interested in continuing the discovery phase of dating with him, tell him (not by text!) that you are looking forward to your Next Date. Then wait for him to arrange one. With an activity, like dinner. See how it goes.
If you are not interested, then politely decline his offer to meet again. After 2 dates, that’s all that is required.
Good luck!
Thankyou.Your post is a good reminder for me Sarah about the inadequacy of texting. Last week, in seems was the dying throes of our relationship, my EUM sent me various ambiguous texts concerning the nature of our relationship. He has done this before despite me highlighting I have a landline phone! I actually loved to hear his voice….but he was awkward , grumpy, evasive on the phone.(confident and commited and missing me by text and e mail…shady?)
I’ve known him 8 months and texting was undoubtedly his communication medium of choice. Fufilled his needs…
Finally,I told him that I would not respond anymore to texts that were ambiguous, flip flapping gems. He said I was Bonkers!
When we had opportunity to discuss our relationship fully we ended up in a supermarket cafe, surrounded by others. I think he was telling me something….
I agree with you that all relationship defining should be done in person and….if you offer this and it is declined repeatedly or sidelined…then no contact is the only way forward.
There is simply not enough time in the world.
Posh,
If he is asking you to be his grilfriend after two dates, I would run. If he is asking if you’re interested in him romantically, tell him the truth.
If you feel uncomfortable because you’re being pushed, then go with your feelings.
Hi Posh [love the name,sounds classy!]
This is very similar to my recent dating experience.I also had two dates,then there was a lot of ambiguity and flip flapping followed by a series of defining where we’re at texts.Needless to say things subsequently went pear shaped and I realised that my initial suspicions that he was an EUM were correct.
It is incredible how EUMs relate better to words on a screen than to a real person.Loads of them blow very hot through text and email but are often considerably cooler face to face.It’s like that’s when they’re exposed.So I agree with the other people.Texts are just for jokes,a quick hello or practical stuff. Anything delicate must be done by phone or face to face.That’s going to be one of my new boundaries. Best of luck!
I love this post but I wonder, when does dating as a discovery phase end and turn into a relationship? Because I can do dating – I’m breezy, easy going, we have a fantastic time for months… but it never goes further. I understand that (with my last ‘rship’ in particular) this is down to both of our issues, but I am intrigued when dating stops being about keeping your options open and investing in someone else. Two months? Three? Six? Do we ALWAYS need to have that ‘so I guess we’re together now’ awkward conversation? Can’t something that was ‘we’re seeing each other’ turn into something more meaningful naturally?
After six months with my last ‘bf’, he really wasn’t stepping up and I finally sat him down to ask him why after loads of dodging conversations on his part. Turns out he still thought we ‘just y’know, getting to know each other’, whereas to me, we were together. I’m trying to get his red flags, etc straight in my head before moving on and the ‘this isn’t a relationship’ posts have been really invaluable to me.
But yes! At what point is dating not just about discovery?
Thanks Nat – keep up the fab work, we all appreciate your insight and honesty xx
Oh Natalie … as usual, perfect timing! You know my story and the AC and I are done. So what is wrong with me? I recently put myself on a dating site – yes, I waited a while before I did it. I even said that I was looking for a friend right now … So why am I so terrified?! I know I’m telling myself something, but I don’t know what the hell I’m telling myself! lol
I almost had a panic attack once I finally put my money down on a membership. Now I have guys acting interested and I’m scared to death. There is even a cute guy (younger than me) that said he was looking for a friend as well. And I want to run!
When I’m sitting at home alone, bored out of my mind, I want to go out. When it comes down to brass tacks, I don’t want to… At this very moment, I have tears running down my face and that squeezy feeling in my chest … In some sick way, I feel like I am betraying the ex AC! I still don’t want to let him go. 🙁 He is an ass. He doesn’t want a REAL relationship with me. I’ve played fallback girl for over 4 years. What is wrong with me? How am I ever going to let go? Is it possible I never will?
Yes, I have serious issues going on that I do not understand. I am fine not seeing the AC, but I cannot seem to move on. I’m not getting any younger. This is all my doing. He certainly isn’t stopping me. I know you can help – Thank God for you.
Annied,
Have you sought help from a professional?
Also, have you tried a meetup.com or volunteering, you will not feel pressured and will meet many new people
My ex-husband was really good at hiding a huge red flag from me. We met at church. While dating, he was consistent, respectful, always made plans in advance and followed through. The relationship progressed as it should. I mean, seriously, even today, years later, I can’t exactly pinpoint anything he did to show me who he truly was. Except maybe one thing. I was very open about my past, my issues, and my struggles. He shared likewise with me, but he lied about a very serious problem he had had long before he met me, and still struggled with. I didn’t know he was lying, all I knew was that I felt like I didn’t have it all together, and that he did.
Things came to light after we were married, and I eventually divorced him. I didn’t date for quite a while after that, like about 3 years. Enter the assclown. He was the opposite of my ex-husband. He had all kinds of issues and was very open about them. Now that I know better, I should have walked away. But I somehow thought this guy was at least honest, and hey, we all have stuff, and I don’t have to worry about some dark secret lurking in the shadows with this guy, because he lays it on the table. What you see is what you get.
I have been trying to figure out why I bothered with the assclown, but finally realized my faulty reasoning behind it. I guess I thought my only two options were to date the supposedly good guy with the big dark secret or date the assclown who just lays it all out on the table. My faith in men has been seriously shattered.
Love Nats post re Assholes have hobbies & interests too…so well put …I was crying real tears of sadness per being so naive, not to mention the time I wasted and invested on a disrespectful Asshole. I came on site seeking comfort ,clarity , inspiration and truth , and halleleujah .. found it. I’m now crying tears through LOL….especially as skydiving was one of the many many activities , I shared with ….Mr dysfunctional….
con merchant.
Ok, I haven’t read the post yet, but from the title, I HAD to comment!
My personal “relationship” rule is:
It is NOT considered a “relationship” (i.e., I won’t use the term “boyfriend”) unless it’s been 6 months or 26 dates, whichever comes LAST! I just arbitrarily selected the 6 month milestone, and 26 dates is equal to one date a week for 6 months. That’s why I said WHICHEVER COMES LAST!
I was with the EUM for 7 months, and even stayed at his home for 3 months, but I am not elevating him to “boyfriend” status because we didn’t go on 26 dates. I’m calling it a “mistake.”
I totally agree with you that dating is a discovery phase prior to commitment to a relationship. Recently, I talked to a guy that I had dated, but he does not feel that we dated, because we did not consumate the relationship. I said, we dated. I did not say that we were in a relationship. During the exploratory phase, I saw red flags that he was not ready for a relationship and long-term commitment, so I brought up that I thought we should be friends. I saved myself heartache by walking away when I saw red flags. I could not agree more with this blog. Recently, I wrote a couple of great blogs on why women want to jump to define the relationship with the guy they are seeing. http://www.lovekudos.com/2011/03/why-women-want-to-define-relationship.html
Thank you Baggage Reclaim…
I never know when to leave… the last guy told me over and over he didn’t want a relationship w/me.. that he still loved his ex, BUT he still wanted to “hang out” so I did.. I settled for crumbs… I also did his laundry, his dishes, cleaned the litter box and even the toilet. Then God stepped in and I got a job in another state and I moved. Now i’m in physical pain over missing him. I know that’s bad and I’m trying to work on my self-esteem. Thank you for writing articles such as this to make me feel like I’m not alone.