I’ve heard from more than a few readers recently who are feeling resentful after being in a relationship where they feel that they gave and gave and gave and that they got nothing or very little ‘back’. Leaving more than a sour taste in their mouthes, they feel ‘owed’ and even lose sleep ruminating over whether someone else will reap the benefit of their ‘investment’.
In truth, the area of investment into relationships is very shady territory. Just like in my last post where I explained how when people are confronted with what they know to be at best inappropriate, and at worst downright dangerous carry-on in their relationship, that they increase their trust, you will step up your level of investment when it feels like you’re on a crumb relationship diet.
It’s like “Hmmm, this relationship isn’t panning out how I expected. I could fold but instead I’m going to ramp up the level of my investment so that when they realise how much I love them and that I’m more than good enough, that they’ll match me.”
The trouble with working hard at a greatly imbalanced relationship is that of course it’s going to feel like incredibly hard work and a huge investment of your energy, because it’s like putting your bucket down an empty well repeatedly and hoping that water will come back up. Or trying to break concrete with a plastic shovel. At its worst when you’re actually in a relationship where the person is busting up your boundaries left, right, and centre, it’s like peeing into the wind – it all comes back at you in a rather unpleasant manner.
Relationships are 100:100 – you never have to feel like you’ve busted up your back, contorted yourself into a pretzel, or sold yourself down the river if you 1) arrive to your relationships as an equal and if you 2) only remain in your relationships when it’s mutual. If you feel ‘owed’ it’s because someone left some of their effort on the table.
Once you start ‘topping up’ the other party like a Pay As You Go Relationship, or doing things with a view to triggering their fountain of love, or even doing all of their effort for them, of course you’re going to feel like you’re ‘owed’ because in recognising that there’s supposed to be two of you in this, when all is said and done, it looks like the other party has reaped the benefit of your over investment.
When people tell me that they’ve given someone a roof over their head, money out of their back pocket, cooked, cleaned, turned a blind eye, taken them back repeatedly, ‘overlooked’ what they shouldn’t, and basically been incredibly indispensable across the board, I hear where they’re coming from, not least because I’ve been there…but, and there is a but…aside from some of these things being silent contracts with uncommunicated expectations, sometimes we do this stuff to substitute for really stretching ourselves.
If may seem easier to pander to their every need and even fix their problems, because if you strip it down to the basics of mutual love, care, trust, respect, shared values and intimacy, commitment, progression, balance, and consistency, it would cause you to realise your fear of being vulnerable and ‘risking’ yourself plus you’d come up short from the other party.
You can focus on their problems and lack of ‘matching’ and then remind yourself that you’re ‘there’, that you ‘love’ them, that you’ve suffered the most for this person and that it takes someone special to put up with some of the stuff that you have.
If it was a question of how much you ‘suffer’ for someone’s love, we’d all be shackled to assclowns. Pain is not love. Forget love against the odds or ‘sacrificing yourself’ – that’s bullshit! If you’re ‘suffering’, you should be exiting.
If it was a question of how much you love someone, you wouldn’t need their input because in theory you could say “I love this person to infinity and beyond!” and qualify yourself for the relationship and their ‘love’ based on what you perceive to be this grand love. Unfortunately we’re not very objective when we consider ourselves in the love equation and may have very unhealthy ideas about what constitutes love.
In the new edition of Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl, I talk about being an indispensable overgiver, where I explain:
“I’ve heard from many indispensable Buffers who basically cook, clean, babysit, chauffeur, and nursemaid uncommitted men. This is excessive. In a healthy relationship, he’ll prioritise having shared values and mutual love, care, trust, and respect over your housekeeping and other abilities.
Focus on getting your relationship in order and addressing issues. Being indispensable will not address your problems. Don’t substitute taking an active role in your relationship and being emotionally available with doing stuff like cooking, cleaning, etc., because they’re not one and the same thing. A man who has one or both feet out of the relationship and has emotional and/or legal ties elsewhere will lose respect for you while availing himself of the fringe benefits of a woman that just doesn’t know when to step back. If you did, you’d soon see where this relationship really was, and ultimately, why do you need to run yourself into the ground?”
People only talk about ‘investments’, feeling ‘owed’, what the other party ‘isn’t’, and only have a sense of what they’re doing and essentially keep tabs, in unhealthy relationships. If you become too focused on what you’re ‘giving’, it ceases to be wholehearted – it becomes The Stuff I Do To Provoke You Into Giving Back What I Want. That’s not giving to them; that’s giving to you albeit via a very convoluted and painful route.
If you’ve ever given someone a home, material goods, money etc with the idea being (even if you didn’t quite verbalise it), that the person would ‘reward’ your generosity with a relationship, you’ve likely already discovered that this isn’t what happens and you’re probably out of pocket too. Hard as this may be to hear, the most they owe you is a thank you, some respect (although not a given), and potentially rent or monetary payback, not a relationship.
If you ‘give’ to drive a relationship that doesn’t exist in the way that you hope and expect it to, you’re getting your relationship action back to front. Establish the relationship first and ensure that it’s mutual and co-pilotted. If you’re giving to provoke a match, you’ll wind up bankrupt, emotionally and possibly literally.
You don’t have a ‘claim’ on an ex or even all your exes – they don’t owe you their better selves, just like if and when you make positive changes to your own life, much as an ex might try, they don’t have the right to collect what they feel they’re owed.
We have to invest ourselves into relationships – it comes with the territory. If we don’t put ourselves in, we’re out. The key is 1) choosing healthy relationships and 2) knowing what our deal breakers are so that we fold when the relationship ‘deal’ can’t continue. If you don’t do the due diligence, ignore code amber and reds, or you then stall to trust yourself and make decisions, you’ll end up knee deep in an unhealthy investment trying to ‘recoup’ what you’re ‘owed’.
When you do feel like you’re owed, it’s confirmation that your relationship isn’t or wasn’t mutual. It means it’s either time to walk or, if the relationship is now over, confirmation that it’s right to be over, because if you feel owed, and you stay, you’re just going to end up feeling more owed.
Your thoughts?
If you have a history of spending too much time hanging around in an unhealthy relationship, check out my book and ebook Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl in my bookshop.
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“…aside from some of these things being silent contracts with communicated expectations, sometimes we do this stuff to substitute for really stretching ourselves.”
Nat, so true! I was a Take-Him-Backer/Overlooker and it really was a (piss poor) substiute for really putting myself out there. It’s one thing to say, “I took him back and he continued to be an assclown. Woe is me y’all!” and a whole other one to say, “I put myself out there and met someone. He was a decent guy, but he wasn’t in love with me.” I will say I was indignant after things went wrong with the last one, because I was like, “How dare he disrupt my life and make promises when he had no intention of sticking around?”. Yes, the guy was an assclown and I had a right to be pissed, but the preceding statement shows EXACTLY why the relationship was in no way viable.
In my case, I hope my ex gets his sh*t together – not for his benefit necessarily, but for the theoretical Next Girl. In his case, it’s more like Next Girl(s)(s)(s)(s), but you get the idea. He doesn’t owe me anything other than a sincere apology (somewhere very warm will freeze over before that happens *ahem*). Likewise, when he keeps sniffing around, I don’t owe him the time of day/free and easy sex/an ego stroke. He also doesn’t owe me never pulling it together, just like I don’t owe him never finding a great realtionship. When it’s over, it’s OVER.
Happy Halloween ladies!!
I was a HUGE taker-backer with this EUM, which was funny because I hadn’t been a taker-backer before – in fact, I’d had a rule that anyone who tried to come back for Round 2 would have their ass kicked so hard their grandchildren would feel it.
But that was THEN – when I was younger and more confident. Then I had some rough life experiences, one in particular, and lost my confidence almost completely about four years ago.
Then he came along, and I thought ‘This is IT, this is my Last Chance Saloon’, being aged 38 and wanting to try for kids. Oh, boy, did I get a wrong number.
Now when I look back at my younger self, I was EUM – most definitely, after the breakup of my engagement. I talked about wanting marriage, etc, but what I really wanted was for someone to come along and fix all my problems for me by being a massive lifelong Project, and save me from having to face my own issues – and myself.
That’s why it was so easy to discard the men involved – it wasn’t my strength, it was that I wasn’t really involved with them in the first place.
So I had one-night stands and made sure I picked men who wouldn’t stick around, and did internet ‘dating’ to meet other EUMs who I found unattractive – anything to avoid facing reality.
I wouldn’t have reflected so much had it not been for these posts: I think the recent one on being a ‘dreamer’ was possibly one of Natalie’s best, at least for me. I was a Jeckyll and Hyde – a dreamer of bliss and perfection, with a dark private life in reality.
So really, the whole heartbreak has been a winner for me, because I have had to face huge and awful things (thank you Baggage Reclaim!), and I’ve survived it. I now feel like I’m in a place where I can seriously consider the rest of my life as a single person, and feel quite positive about it.
“I’d had a rule that anyone who tried to come back for Round 2 would have their ass kicked so hard their grandchildren would feel it. ”
PJM, that made me burst out laughing!! I was the same way and, just like you, I had some things happen that really knocked my confidence badly. It became like, “Well, no one else wants me and everyone else thinks I’m an idiot, so I might as well just try and get this one to stick around.” Just like you, it was much easier for me to kvetch about how rotten the situation was than to face my own issues!
I love, love your comment about how heartbreak was a winner for you because it kick-started a whole new way of life. I totally agree!
Thanks Natasha – and good luck with the wedding; is it a Jewish one? Then you have my full sympathy: these are absolute hell for the single woman! In fact, single women should probably be made to sit behind a curtain at the reception – I for one would find that preferable to being stared and and pitied (and behind the curtain you could smoke and drink and eat too much and bitch with all the other spinsters, anyway, which would probably be more fun …)
Spot on! I’m sure there are guys who do the same with carrot-dangling objects of their affections but I think, as women, we want to show that we’re the real deal/great wife material/the best lay he’s ever had…etc.
Shame we don’t stop and think that although he might agree with us and be over the moon to be receiving such fabulous treatment he still doesn’t ‘have to’ fall in love with us!!
The crux of it is is that if it feels like work, it ain’t love.
It wasn’t mutual.
It’s right to be over.
Painful but I need keep repeating it.
I did feel ‘owed’ yet even when I knew he wasn’t ever going to “cough up” I still stuck around – knowing I had no real right to feel owed at all cos I was sticking around when I knew I shouln’t be. I now actually dread to think of the impression I was giving my ex EUM – he must have wondered what the hell was wrong with me that I didn’t need more than the crumbs he was giving. My lack of self-awareness was astonishing really. We are so wired into what “he” is doing wrong, not doing, not doing well enough, what he’s not giving, what he’s not being – we are so critical of “him” that we fail often to take a close look at ourselves and see that we need a good talking to as well! If not even moreso.
I notice this now in some relationships of friends or family (one particular one I am thinking of) – I hear the constant moaning about what a useless, selfish so-and-so “he is”, how “he” did this or how “he” didn’t do that and I feel like saying: you are very aware of all his shortcomings but when you gonna take a close look at your own and have an honest conversation with and about *yourself* – cos you are both as bad as eachother!
I don’t feel owed anymore. I feel stupid. I feel now that for all I had to say about and to the EUM (by email of course!) he could have had a great deal to say to me about me yet he spared me that humiliation (he is yet to tell me any home truths about myself and I’m sure he was aware of them – yet I filled him in on his own shortfalls on a regular basis – like his monthy “here’s what a shit you’ve been now” newsletter. Duh.
Only when you realise you actually have work to do on *yourself* are you shocked at just how much of an overhaul is actually needed. It’s scary.
My ex EUM didn’t divulge to me my faults either, which I’m grateful for. I think it was more that he didn’t care enough about me to expend that kind of energy. Everything is more easy when you don’t care. It’s very easy to come off as the non-crazy one when you don’t give a sh*t.
But he did get some hurtful digs in such as “I didn’t string you along. You knew how I was all along.” I did know, but he did string me along. But that statement is indicative of how they think.
When I recently found out my ex has been seeing another woman for the past five months, and we were both being called “Baby, and hon” I said to him: “You didn’t even try to get to know me”. He replied: “That’s because you are crazy”.
That cut through me like a knife. He had called me crazy several times in the relationship – early on. I would rebuke it with like, “no, I’m smart and successful, look at the types of jobs I’ve had, look at the people and children I have served/helped…look at me!….” But he was a *name-caller*, and an abuser. He tore me down with his cruel untruthful words from the early-on…right after the honeymoon phase. I suffered early on and should have left him immediately with him not improving his communication to me. But I have learned from this and I am getting my happy real and better self back.
I realized what I wrote wasn’t true. He did tell me my faults, just not in essay format like I did.
There were things he said that I thought about long after the relationship ended. One was that I ask too many questions that I already know the answer to. Really? So you can read my mind? He was such a jerk, it astounds me.
Angel Face, I really hear what you are saying…the name calling absolutely never gets better, it starts with the odd comment and then can last for hours. Been there.
This hits at the crux of what I felt I was ‘owed’…an apology for how his verbal abuse and put downs affected me. Like you, he called me names that bore no resemblance to how I was, using words ‘failure’ or ‘that I’d slept with all and sundry’. None of which is true. What I have come to realise is that these EUMs/AC’s march to the beat of a very different drum. They do not need to know you…in fact to do do or to try to do so simply ups their vulnerability. They use the verbal abuse to pigeon hole you, to put you down and ultimately to rationalise why they left you. They truly believe that they owe you nothing in the transaction. Once I accepted that I knew it was trying to get pennies out of an empty piggy bank. One of my biggest regrets is listening and believing all the awful things he said about his ex wife and girlfriends. I actually feel I owe them some sort of apology in my head. I’m so sorry you put up with this verbal abuse from your guy, you sound like you are getting stronger all the time …
AngelFace..This hit so close to home for me..I too was verbally and emotionally abused,altho at the time I didnt see it,The hot and cold,breaking up/calling in 2 days,the silent treatment,and for the final act he dissapeared..There are days when I still feel owed an apology,but that day will never come,He is as empty as one can be..I too was a phycho,crazy,ton of issues…Yup we are the Nutty ones…And honestly I must have been to date him!!!
Don’t know if this is true for anyone else, but when my “he” said “you’re crazy” he meant “you’re right.” It’s what he said when he was caught red-handed and had no defense. It took me a while to figure it out because of the emotional reaction those words provoke — which is the whole intention, throw her off-base, get her shouting, look, she really is nuts! Oh, and what was that thing we were talking about?
Fearless, I feel stupid too.
But I think I only feel stupid because I am thinking about how he must perceive me. Now that I see clearly how much I gave and gave and gave, I am thinking he is sitting at home laughing his butt off thinking “Jeez that girl gave me way too much”. But honestly, these guys aren’t sitting at home replaying the relationship like we are. They didn’t care before, they don’t care now. So by feeling stupid I think we continue to give them power, because in a way I think I want him to see how I have changed into a stronger person so I can be a challenge for him again. But we should never want these guys back and we should never waste energy trying to show them anything! Instead of feeling stupid, just take the lesson you learnt from this relationship, and keep your head high. Alot of the time it is control and manipulation that causes us to give and give, so don’t feel stupid just feel happy that you are out of that relationship. Go on and live and have fun, because you know that’s what he’s doing.
Jupiter:
“It’s very easy to come off as the non-crazy one when you don’t give a sh*t.”
Soooo agree with that!! It’s exactly what I used to say to the EUM; that it was easy for him to assume the moral high-ground by ignoring my pleas for communication – he made me feel as if I was a nutter and yes, it was easy for him to go silent – he didn’t care what happened to ‘us’, I did. So it’s not really the moral high-ground or the more ‘sane’ position, it’s just that they don’t give a shit what happens and are keeping us at arms length – and mine had arms five miles long!
Nat, a few readers have commented that the more they gave, the more disrespectful their EU’s became. I’m trying to understand this myself. My EU was a jerk after he broke up with me, which I know may have been to convince me that he hadn’t just royally screwed me over and thatI was in fact at fault. I thought maybe *he* was hurt and acting out….but the crap behaviour just continued….and yet he was the one who just kept on calling me/wanting to be “best friends” some days, treat me like a side piece on others, and at other times act like I meant nothing to him.
I know the bottom line is that he’s an ass, but I would nevertheless like to understand why these guys become bigger pricks when we try to be understanding–is it simply because they can get away with it, or do they get something more out of it?
A, I think the acting like a jerk towards you when they know they’ve behaved badly IS to give you the impression that you’ve done something wrong and to make you feel guilty. I had a guy that treated me like dirt after he begged me to take him back inform me that he had been expecting an apology after I told him to get to steppin’. Mind you, I told him to step and stay stepped after he’d already pulled a disappearing act for the holidays. When he told me that, I was like, “Say WHAT fool?” You’re very smart not to fall for it – oftentimes, this is the mark of an assclown.
I agree that they do the hot/lukewarm/cold because they can and it’s what works for them. If someone acts like a jackass in the face of you attempting to be understanding, this is them showing you exactly who they are!
Jupiter
“Everything is more easy when you don’t care” That is so true.
We set our hearts on one man and give everything we have, when it ends we are devastated and alone.They however ,are never alone they have fall back girls ( a harem of admirers to call on when needed ).It doesn’t hurt them because they didn’t really care in the first place,plus the replacement is already on standby.
That’s how it was for me anyway.
Wow You hit a nerve here. My ex actually admitted he had all those girls waiting in the wings. I said wtf? You had a harem? He told me it was easier for him to get them to his agenda because he never gave any one of them too much attention. This was all admitted to me in good times when I tortured him so bad I had him crawling on his knees to me since I wouldn’t give in to him. He was great for awhile but eventually these types of men go full circle and back to what they are. EUMS Best to run from them and never look back since even when they change for you….they will go back. It will be a constant uphill battle.
Jupiter 23
“It’s very easy to come off as the non-crazy one when you don’t give a sh*t.”
How sad and true. Sometimes I get chills reading this blog b/c its like we all dated the same horrible vile man. He painted me out to be the crazy one. But, it was only b/c I cared so deeply, loved him so much and needed to be treated decently and get some damn closure. But, what did he care, he was already on to my replacement within a week. Also, when we dated, he told me how “crazy” and horrible his ex-wife and ex-GF were and I stupidly believed him. After the breakup, I spoke w/his ex-wife and she was completely normal and had been through hell w/him. Be very suspicious of these guys who call other women crazy. Before you know it, they are calling you crazy, you feel crazy and it all happens so quickly it makes your head spin. Sorry we have all had to go through this very painful experience.
I definately felt like I invested more into my last relationship, at least emotionally, which is why I had to walk when I found out that he wasn’t in love with me. Actually, he’s just emotionally unavailable, so I don;t think he does ‘in love’. Now I’m doing NC and he occasionally sends me stupid emails. Just as I think I’m moving forward, I get a dumb email to bring me back, this one was for happy halloween, he even used my name in the email (didn’t use my name or his in the other ones). I’ve been ignoring them all, but now I’m thinking I need to tell him to not email me anymore. Truth is, I’m afraid to sever all ties, even though I’m doing NC and the emails bug me it’s nice to know he still thinks about me. Crazy hey?
Not crazy. All too familiar, for many I would guess. I just don’t want you (or anyone else) to second guess themselves when their pitiful EUM attempts at contact stop.
Hi Chloe,
You are not the only one, me too, same situation, I think it is sadly the need for validation Natalie talks about. I walked out too in the end, didn`t want to, wanted him to change instead ( an alcoholic in addition to being EUM- what was I thinking?? ) Feels like torture initiating and going through a break-up you don`t really want but feel is the right thing to do for you. You are basically fighting yourself. Took me months to accept the obvious, that talk is cheap and I can only judge him by his actions. They are it, he is full of shady stuff, why did I feel the need to Sherlockholmes it? Oh, I know, in case there was something at the bottom of it that could be fixed…and then there`ll be happy ever after. If I had good self-esteem and trusted myself, and loved myself enough, I would have acted on lots of amber/red stuff in the beginning before I fell in love with him- or got invested. I did feel he owed me a relationship I wanted because he talked (out of his bum) about him wanting the same. Also, I felt I moved the earth for him and he didn`t move dust – I loved that phrase Natalie, you have a way with words. Right now I owe it to myself to give myself that validation and just to trust myself. I think everything else will follow.
Chloe,
Why don’t you just block him? You will be breaking NC if you ask him to stop, and blocking is a much easier solution.
Yeah you should block him Chloe, press that button, or get another address. I fell foul of sending my ex a group text as a reminder that it was a charities’Awareness ‘day and I got a patronising ditty back which ended with a comment about the colour of his underwear…sleazy! I felt like a complete twat for sending it in first place.
Chloe,
You are not crazy. For the past few days I keep checking my phone to see if I get that comfort of knowing ‘he’s still thinking of me’. But no, nothing’s coming, and I KNOW I should be happy about that. I am exhausting myself thinking about it.
I too want that validation, just so I can take it and know nothing’s changed about the situation. But I am keeping myself in this awful waiting zone instead of sucking it up and just not giving a sh*t anymore.
Ladies, here’s my mantra:
“Stop wearing your wishbone where your backbone ought to be”
Stop wishing, and start living with your backbone in place so you never accept sh*t from anyone ever again.
Australia, In my imaginary conversation with my ex, I tell him that I disengaged because I grew a backbone where my wishbone was! Love that line. I’m also dealing with the validation issue. I know he’s an ass and that any attention is meaningless in the big picture but… Yesterday he tried to call and when I didn’t answer sent a text “Front seat of your car.” When I checked there was mail that hadn’t been forwarded and a bottle of nice wine from a vineyard we visited on a trip this time last year. I texted him a simple thank you and he said he had phoned so he could give it to me in person. Dodged that bullet! LOL But, obviously I do need to get the other car key back and give the tool his tools back that I still have from the last day I saw him when he came over to fix stuff in my new place. It creeps me out that he could put stuff in my car right in front of my home. I haven’t seen him in months but I may have to to get the property exchange done. In any case, there will obviously be future communication. I go back and forth about whether I will say anything since we never had a formal break up – we had a text argument and then both went NC. This vagueness also keeps me in a kind of waiting zone even though I’m done with his AC behavior and disrespect and I’m sure he already started up with a fallback girl/new relationship or he wouldn’t have let me go so easily and would be sniffing around more. I don’t think he could go a day without having a source to stroke his ego and his dick. Ugh.
Anyway, I don’t know if I should contact him to do the key/tool exchange to get this limbo over so I can stop wondering when he’ll contact me or if I should just wait for him and deal with it then with as little contact as possible. I haven’t initiated any contact since I went NC and only replied to his contact out of practical concern. Any input on the better option from the wise women here?
“I don’t think he could go a day without having a source to stroke his ego and his dick. Ugh.”
HA. love it.
Well personally I think you should just get the key/tool exchange over with, because at least if I were you I would sort of be using that as an excuse just to stay even a little invested!
If you have determined the key/tool exchange NEEDS to happen, and seeing as he has gotten into your car (that was weird) then I say get it over with, so you can let go of every little thing that may be holding you back from moving on. But when it comes to the exchange I would say keep it clean so there’s no room for dicussions about what happened or more importantly any room for him to weasle his way back into your life. Maybe drop the tools off when he’s not home or something? If you do end up seeing him for the exchange, ask yourself if you really need closure through a discussion of the past? I am sure you can give yourself that closure, because you probably won’t hear what you want from him anyways.
You have established he’s an AC and disrespectful already so keep being smart and remain in no contact after doing the key/tool exchange.
Maybe someone else has a different idea of how to go about this?
Thanks for your thoughts Australia. We both live in the city and don’t really have anywhere to safely leave things outside which is why he used the spare key to put stuff in my car when I wouldn’t answer his call. I have to get that car key so I think it will need to be a simultaneous exchange. Also, we don’t have any people in common and I wouldn’t involve a 3rd party anyway.
I think you’re right that it is keeping me invested to an extent because I know with certainty there will be future contact and, after 6 years, it is really weird that the ending was so vague. I also think think you’re correct that there’s no way I’ll get a satisfactory response to anything I could possibly say. He is incapable of accepting responsibility and will somehow try to make it all my fault! I don’t see that ever changing or him even having a thought that he needs to change. After all, someone else is already lapping up his BS, I’m sure.
The last few months I’ve been here on BR, being honest with myself in acknowledging my part in this mess and reminding myself that the fact that I felt the needed to go NC to escape the drama and disrespect should be closure enough.
Having this “innocent” opening to make contact hanging over my head has added to my anxiety but I don’t really want to be the one to initiate contact and feed his ego.
Yea but I feel like by initiating contact so you can do this key/tool exchange so you can then move on for good good!, won’t feed his ego. You would feed his ego if you were trying to get him back in your life and agreed to listen to his BS which like we said, he would probably turn it around on you instead of accepting some responsibility anyways so there is no point in listening to him.
You are only initiating contact so that you can cut contact once and for all. That is a blow to his ego if anything.
For a long time I felt “owed” and I damn well was going to get paid so I foolishly stuck around an extra 18months after he left me for another woman. Yeah I got paid alright, 18months of soul destroying BS. Even after all this time it can still bring me to tears, its because I feel so foolish and stupid at times. Luckily those times are getting far and few between.
I totally feel owed for sure. It is soooooo hard when you meet someone and you believe every word that comes out of their mouth. Letting go has been so hard for me. It start so quickly and ended even quicker. Our first week was weird. I just need to vent. I keep including EUD (emotionally unavailable Dude) in all my mass texts just to see if he will text back; he doesn’t usually, but every once in a while he does but nothing elluding to anything other than just that…a returned text. It actually makes me sick to my stomache as I think about it and him and giving him a second chance after he ignored me for 6 days. 🙁 Also when he ended it, it was through text messages. 🙁 TEXT MESSAGES! I begged to talk to him face to face and/or on the phone; how incredibly pathetic was that? I could go on and on, but I won’t. I guess I’ll keep reading and hopefully this dred goes away.
Rina,
Are you still including this guy in your texts?
I did this for 22 years. Now I’m 45 and feel like I’ve been left high and dry. My ex is an alcoholic that I tried to “fix, help, love enough, save etc, etc, etc..” I was living in denial. Looking back I know that now. Something about how he felt about me was not quite right. I always felt like I gave more, loved more. But I hung in there waiting for the day that it would get better, improve, all the while suffering from all his transgressions (including several infidelities, which I forgave every time). I suffered too much for this relationship. I left him this summer after moving to a different province (we’re Canadian) into a new home we had purchased after his promotion. When I joined him there (after his being there for several months), he acted cold and aloof. I never saw him. My daughter and I were there for a month, and during this time he was drunk most of the time, or simply absent. I spent my nights alone. I knew he’d found someone else while he was there on his own (during that time I was back home and selling our old house). Needless to say, my daughter and I left after being basically ignored or verbally abused during drunken bouts. It took us five days to return to our own province and I have since stayed with my mother, trying to pick up the pieces of my life. This has been incredibly painful. I only wish I had come to my senses sooner and at a younger age. I have done alot of reading on alcoholism, cheating partners, and so on to try and get back on my feet emotionally these last couple of months. I even go to Al anon for support, so I’m getting there. Ladies, don’t let this happen to you. If the warning signs are there (and they usually are, we just choose not to look), follow your instincts because they’re telling you the truth. High tail it out of there while you’re still young. Its not worth the heart ache of 22 years introspection on a bad relationship.
Nina, what a story. A husband of 22 years can’t even do you the courtesy of telling you he has found someone else, he just freezes you (and your daughter!) out until you get the message? What an absolutely heartless thing to do.
Pity the poor new woman who he has decided goes with his new house, new job, and decades-old drinking habit. I once told a guy I dated briefly, who would often want to drink more instead of heading to bed to fool around that it was either me or the bottle. He chose the bottle, of course, and soon found a woman who didn’t give him such ultimatums. I would see her sometimes at parties, hobbled under his armpit, propping him up as she helped him put on his shoes to go home.
You deserve so much better than even one more day of propping up an alcoholic who is being such a twat. Good for you for going NC, for finding BR, and for doing Al-Anon (I’m in ACOA). If you keep up the 12-step work, you may meet men currently in AA, as I have. Once you meet men who have begun to take responsibility for their addictions and the consequences of their actions, the absolute impossibility of your having been able to change your husband will jump out at you that much more.
People with addictions and “investment” do not even belong in the same sentence!
Thanks for your words of encouragement.
Atta girl Magnolia – but warning, Nina – maybe don’t rush into daing the guys in AA!?
I used be drawn like a moth to a flame to support groups (anyone seen ‘Fight Club’?) because the guys there felt so … familiar … and I was so … comfortable … with them.
All bad. Bad, bad, bad.
I think if I went to open AA meetings, it would only be to get a perspective on the recovering alcoholic’s view of things. i have to say that a relationship right now is the furthest thing on my mind. I’m definately not in the right frame of mind for that right now. I would make a terrible partner for someone new. I know that I need to work on myself for awhile and heal from this horrible separation.
He listed the house last night…reality.
Oh yes, I didn’t mean to date them, only to observe! Nina, we look forward to having you around the blog if and when you drop in here for support. At times I have been amazed at the community here; the wonderful women here have helped me through more than one tough patch emotionally. The listing of the house – ouch – and hugs to you.
I didn’t do the taking care of him things but boy did I feel owed by the end for sticking around for ego strokes and sex and being the fallback girl/doormat after we got back together! Reading this, I realized that I was stuck in believing that he would see how amazing and valuable I was/we were when I came back after a break and him having a new gf and stayed around after he started escalating his bad and disrespectful behavior. In honesty here with Natalie and you other wiser and wonderful women, I knew I was self-destructing with every boundary I let fall and felt contempt for myself and did question if it was that projection or reality that I sensed contempt from him, too, the more I made an effort to accept the unacceptable. I felt owed an effort after 6 years and even after NC, it’s still hard to swallow his ability to say “next” but I am so much better of a person than who I was with him this last year especially. I own my complicity in accepting the poor treatment instead of walking away immediately but, if he was a decent human being, he would not have played both ends against the middle at my expense.
“Don’t substitute taking an active role in your relationship and being emotionally available with doing stuff like cooking, cleaning, etc., because they’re not one and the same thing.”
I have to disagree with you here. Acts of service is one of the 5 languages of love, it is how a lot of people show their love and their commitment. Everything else however is sound as usual <3
“Acts of service” are all very well and good as long as you see your partner reciprocating in some way to make a mutual rfelationship. When a woman doesn’t see this she is simply simply trying to work her way into a love relationship of mutual caring via cleaning his dirty socks and being a servant. The key issue is mutuality of service not one sided servitude.
philip
I don’t know what these five languages are, but I’m assuming that under thetheory all five need to be present. Rather than overloading on one because it’s all a) we’re getting or b) capable of.
Grace you hit the nail on the head. In a healthy relationship all five are present. One or two may stand out a little more but all five are there. They are acts of service, quality time, gifts, words of affirmation and physical touch. I was in a relationship were all the guy could give was acts of service and almost nothing else. It was the most empty relationship I have ever had. Its a great book though, the five love languages. I’ve read it several times and used it to get closer to my family, friends and coworkers. It was pleasing to me to find out what made them feel loved and valued and then to interact with them in that way.
Philip – You should be heading FIRST to a mutual relationship, then you can start cooking, cleaning or applying the required love language(s) but not way BEFORE you are there. The way I understand NML is to NOT using cooking, cleaning …etc as entrance tickets into a relationship and then being disappointed because there is no concert and – even more crazy – after realizing there’s no music to even increase your cooking, cleaning etc efforts.
Philip
I part agree, but only if there’s equal balance of service! Yet all too often there isn’t – and I don’t think the language of love includes that of ‘housemaid’.
Yes, we all like to “service” the people we love – it can express our commitment, but it also does sometimes act as a substitute for commitment for women who don’t want to extend themselves to move on from poor relationships to find a healthy one that’s actually worth comitting to. So that often all the cooking and cleaning is a wholly misguided or false show of commitment.
I have seen women trying to get their man to appreciate them by acting like a committed servant – and the more cleaning and cooking she does in an effort to be appreciated by him, the bigger hole she digs for herself, and the bigger hole she digs the more cleaning and cooking she does to try (fruitlessly) to get out of the hole. My sister is one of those ‘committed housemaids’ who has cooked and cleaned furiously for her man to such an extent that he now thinks he’s the king of the castle who can come home from the pub at midnight every night and rub his finger along surfaces checking for dust or complain that the stairs haven’t been hoovered – this coming from a guy who doesn’t know what a hoover or a duster looks like! He sure knows where they’re serving up the beer tho’! (and he actually doesn’t give a shit about dust or unhoovered stairs – it’s not about that – it’s about control – and it works, cos the “commited servant” will still make excuses for why she didn’t get round to the dusting this week!)
I think in cases like this there is actually commitment avoidance on both parts, and that’s the point here, I think.
{…because if you feel owed, and you stay, you’re just going to end up feeling more owed.}…
Love this post. You have so much detailed insight I can’t even tell you how I wish I’d met you a few years back. I would have been a b@d@$$ chic (in a good way,just more knowledgeable), omg! I really appreciate you sharing this information it is tough to admit all of this in the beginning but it is how one can heal by 1st facing it head on and dealing with it. B4 running into this website, I had already achieved (cold turkey) 1.5 year NC, so proud of myself, then contact began from the other party, after us trying to be friends then me getting disappointed, I chose to go n2 NC mode again now 1 full month. I had already deleted my ‘fakebook'(i call it that sometimes,lol) & myspace acct. a year or so ago bcuz I didn’t want contact or info. on his life (I didn’t care). I really just wanted MY LIFE BACK :-)!!
Someone has been reading my mind again! My checkbook reads like a relationship diary. I have spent years trying to lift men up emotionally & financially, & the minute they’re on their feet they disappear & im left to wonder what happened. It took years & hard soul-searching before i realized the truth. Just the other night, an ex called: he missed me so badly, i was such a good woman(compared to his current girlfriend), i was the best thing that had ever happened to him & by the way he was behind on his rent again. What i gave him was the dial tone instead. Ladies, even if you dont have much to give please let these men in that first conversation what you are & aren’t willing to do. So many men treat women like a part-time job, just trying to get whatever they can get. When the resources are used up, like locusts they move on to the next feast. From now on, all extra time & attention will be spent on me & my money stays in my pocket…
“My checkbook reads like a relationship diary.”
Love that phrase.
This was the section I was stuggling with when I was reading the new edition of Mr. U and the FBG :” If you become too focused on what you’re ‘giving’, it ceases to be wholehearted – it becomes The Stuff I Do To Provoke You Into Giving Back What I Want. That’s not giving to them; that’s giving to you albeit via a very convoluted and painful route.” I didn’t get this at first because it’s a deeply ingrained convoluted pattern. I thought it was normal! If I gave him the relationship I wanted, he would give me the relationship I wanted…is this right? Then, when he comes up short and I keep trying to give to him in order to give to me, I feel he owes me because I’ve given and suffered so much. Wow, that’s so convoluted but makes total sense, if I’ve got it right.
OUCH, CRINGE, HEAD DESK, ARSE KICK…”A man who has one or both feet out of the relationship and has emotional and/or legal ties elsewhere will lose respect for you while availing himself of the fringe benefits of a woman that just doesn’t know when to step back.” I’ve stepped back. I’m giving everything I used to give to him to me now. (I tried a new roasted pepper hummus recipe today. He hated hummus. It was yummy.)
Recognizing and owning my role in dancing with the AC/EUM/MM is amazing. I’m finally unloading my anger by owning my role in being involved with a MM. You are brilliant Natalie. I’m also unloading my anger with regards to my father. There is still more work there because he was even creepier than the exMM. Thank you.
Hi,
Your roasted pepper hummus sounds delicious!
runner:
“If I gave him the relationship I wanted, he would give me the relationship I wanted…is this right?”
That sounds exactly right. That is also exactly what I did. *he* got the relationship I wanted (bah humbug!!) and I gave him that because I wanted to get it back from him – I kept on giving what *I* wanted in the hope *I* would one day receive it from him (as if! Pigs might fly, but they don’t!).
And no, I didn’t know when to step back at all – I don’t think I ever have with men that I’d put my sights on… oh dear..
Yes, Nat is brilliant; remarkably astute, and it all makes total sense.
But that’s one of the essential tragedies/ironies of relationships in general. Families, too. People give what they want to receive. Then they each feel bereft and misunderstood.
Amen corner here – I now go to the local DVD library and enjoy myself, completely free from the long and tedious arguments about which film we would hire (having totally different tastes), and the endless pass-agg ‘Oh, I don’t mind’ … AAARRGHH …
And I can go to classical concerts and really enjoy them with people who also enjoy them …
And I can have early dinners, which mean early nights, and I don’t have to have my dinner at 8pm because that suits him, and then stay up till midnight having quality time when all I want to do is crawl into bed and sleep like the dead …
I love these moments even more now, because they provide mental tick-boxes to remind me that ‘this is actually much, much better’.
One of the easiest ways to “move on” and get over the guy (and it’s NEVER easy) is to own up to your own behavior. Acknowledge that you screwed up and picked the least likely candidate for a decent boyfriend.
Taking responsibility for your actions is empowering, not only with this type of situation but ANY situation.
If you acknowledge your part in the situation, it means YOU can fix it – by not contacting him, making better choices next time, doing work on yourself, whether physical, emotional, mental, whatever – and understanding your role in the whole thing will hopefully prevent you from even WANTING to contact him.
I’ve been five months now of no contact and with this kind of distance, what I realize now is that I was as screwed up as he was. He may have been an assclown, but he was an HONEST assclown. When I first mentioned being monogamous, he said “no, I don’t want that with you.” He was being honest about what he wanted. And I didn’t walk away.
There were so many outrageous incidents since that time over 1 1/2 years that they are too numerous to count. And I never walked away.
One of the worst was inviting me to a nice restaurant on Valentine’s Day of this year. (It was a Monday this year.) He spent the night, and the following morning, on my kitchen countertop, I found a hotel receipt that he “accidentally” left there – it was for the previous two days, the weekend, at a swanky hotel in the country not far from here. The reservation was for two, and his signature was on it.
I confronted him and read him the Riot Act.
That’s right, this clown was having sex and spent the previous two nights in a hotel with another woman, and I STILL didn’t walk away until three months later. !!
Get out while you can, ladies. These guys will NEVER change. Never. They are incapable of any deep intimacy or connection. They are damaged.
So just take responsibility for your part in it, accept that you made a huge mistake in connecting with them in the first place, accept that they are very damaged individuals, and just walk away and start rebuilding your life.
We aren’t victims. If we are hanging on, it’s because we CHOOSE to. That makes us damaged as well.
love it!
So true! In my case, they boyfriend knows he owes me, does keep saying it. Promises he will make up for it, but of course never does. Instead I keep investing more and more. And by now I don’t even love him any more, yet I stay, unable to “fold”. Crazy really.
So Saskia,
you’re in a relationship with someone you don’t love any more. What’s keeping you stuck in that relationship then? What does it serve you to stay? Maybe if you can honestly answer those questions you can take a leap of faith in yourself and get the sort of relationship that may do you a whole lot better. Being stuck in a poor relationship is being stuck in limbo and is sleeping on your own life.
“Pain is not love”
When my ex broke up with me a few weeks ago, I felt owed, rejected and regretful of how nice and accomodating I had been – all in an attempt to try and get him to do the same for me. Heck, I still feel owed and rejected.
So, because the past is gone, I will take this feeling of feeling ‘owed’ and use it, among many other things, as a sign that thank god I am out. I am now free to build myself up again, and become a strong strong strong female who knows what my boundaries are, and tolerates nothing less. It all starts at home – in my soul, and my gut, and my head – feeling strong, confident, full of life and passion, and knowing I am a beautiful, valuable human being who knows that being a nice person is not a regrettable quality, just to be nice only when the other person is just as nice in return on a consistent basis 🙂
Yes! We need to get this idea out of our heads that pain is love. It isn’t! Love should be healthy, happy and honest. I think we see suffering as a path to something good, but love is not one of those things. Yes, sometimes you and your partner will go through tough times, but that should not be because one of you is causing pain. It should be when you both try to give each other support! Let’s all try to remember this.
You are on the right track!!!!I am a very caring person,and have seemed to choose all the wrong men,who use and try to brea my spirit,with this site I am learing to spot the Healthy flags,its refreshing!!!
I don’t feel “owed.” I totally overinvested. I want something like his life for myself, and instead of facing the fact that if I really want what he has, I need to invest YEARS in myself, I tried investing in the promise of being married to what I thought I wanted.
It would be like someone who wanted to be a writer deciding that they would get together with me, just to be able to go to all the parties and sometimes feel validated that they are one of the writers. Add to that secretly thinking I’m not such a great person, and maybe not even a great writer, just a recognized one, but thinking that if they keep investing, they might eventually change their mind and learn to like me, or I might spontaneously combust into the kind of person they want (neither of which would actually turn THEM into a writer).
God, when I put it like that it’s so laughable!!
I mean, obviously, to do that, that person would have to … really be kidding themselves! Why not go be a writer already and find someone who loves you while you do?
And there’s the rub. Potentially coming to terms with my own laziness or coming to terms with knowing that I don’t want to do what it would take to have what he has. Sure, I’d like to have the lifestyle of a pro golfer, too, but I don’t want to just marry one to get it. And I also don’t want to give up my life to golf. So if I really still have that dream, I might want to look at letting go of it.
My investment in that relationship probably helped me feel like I was “working” at something, deferring the real work of figuring out my dreams and deciding what I will go after. That work is much harder and involves some painful decisions.
So I don’t feel owed. I just feel like I allowed myself to invest, in a moment of weakness, in a get-happy-quick scheme that I should have known better than to expect to pay off. I threw my value (my time, my energy, my attention) into something that was really me trying to take a shortcut to self-trust and self-reliance. A bad investment. But caveat emptor, in men as well as mutual funds, I guess.
Magnolia,
Thanks for the writer analogy …it really worked for me and triggered a blinding glimpse of the obvious. My weakness is social success. I keep going for the sports captains, big men on campus, bosses, popular guys … because I want to be them. I’m socially awkward and feel rejected a lot of the time … so it’s like if I sleep with or marry Mr. Glib and Slick, I will be magically transformed. And I invest more and more–determined to get what I want despite the men turning out to be shallow, superficial, or boring. Or withholding, cruel, and abusive. Aaaaargh. Time for another round of therapy.
Magnolia, let’s laugh together. My GREAT LOVE was all about that, getting to some perceived traits I WANTED FOR MYSELF. The idea is really ridiculous, as if character traits could be loved off a person! Thanks for your honesty and putting it straight. Meanwhile I got it: there are no short cuts or quick fix approaches to love or life that work. But in detouring you get to know the territory better and better… here on Earth nothing is wasted! 😉
Magnolia,
I too wanted a life like his for myself – his success , his flock of friends, how everyone wanted to be his friend, his easy going attitude, his ability to have such firm boundaries. I enjoyed his lifestyle, and instead of working on myself to become someone with strong boundaries and successful, I seemed so attached to him and his appealing lifestyle and never wanted to lose him so I ended up giving so much of myself.
I can’t wait to see myself in 3,5, 8 years from now and see how far I have come now that I have so many tools, particularly from this website, to become a strong, confident, successful person. It is my turn to shine.
I so relate, Manolia. I too invested all with this man, and forgot me. One thing I’ve done right through all this is that I have stressed the importance of self reliance on my 17 year old daughter. I have drilled this into her concerning education and the fact that she must look after herself first and foremost.
Great post Nat!
Magnolia: “I don’t feel “owed.” I totally overinvested. I want something like his life for myself, and instead of facing the fact that if I really want what he has, I need to invest YEARS in myself, I tried investing in the promise of being married to what I thought I wanted.”
Woah… this is really insightful. It’s one of my relationships exactly. I feel an epiphany.
Mmmmmmmmmm AMEN Natalie. I don’t know how you remember your “unhealthy days” so vividly, but thank God for your spot on recall. This is soooooooo on point! I am definitely a nurturing personality and it’s in my nature to take care of others and God help me if it does not reach an unhealthy level when I’m in a romantic relationship! Thank you thank you thank you for calling me out. I hope I never do this again, with anybody.
When you do feel like you’re owed, it’s confirmation that your relationship isn’t or wasn’t mutual. It means it’s either time to walk or, if the relationship is now over, confirmation that it’s right to be over, because if you feel owed, and you stay, you’re just going to end up feeling more owed.
Exactly, the relationship was over, I stayed for the ‘friendship’ and ended up feeling owed even more because he was falling short where words weren’t matching action and so I tried harder and harder to get him to pay by investing even more of myself into the ‘friendship.’
It is only recently I am truly mortified and ashamed of how hard I tried to be friends with someone who simply wasn’t honest enough me with words to say sorry its over lets leave it.
You don’t have a ‘claim’ on an ex or even all your exes – they don’t owe you their better selves, just like if and when you make positive changes to your own life, much as an ex might try, they don’t have the right to collect what they feel they’re owed.
I don’t have a claim on him and he owes me nothing and we are not nor do we have to be friends, reality at last. (though I know I’ve work to do)
I remember years ago when I told my ex about the analogy of the emotional bank account. I explained that, just like a real bank account, you had to put in something to then be able to take something out. When you didn’t put in and just took, it caused a deficit. I explained that we were way negative in our account and it would take a lot just to get back to zero. He looked at me like I was an alien from outer space.
Natalie is right. When someone starts to overdraw their account with you, it is time to CLOSE that account. Don’t allow them to keep taking or they will not take it seriously that they are doing something wrong. In real life, a bank doesn’t let you keep taking money out you don’t put in. They will close your account.
Plus, when relationships are 100:100, you don’t need to keep tabs because you will be too happy giving AND receiving joy from your relationship.
I am so grateful Natalie – these posts just keep coming! This has been me and I am thankful to have it pointed out to me so I can now start doing something about it.
In my marriage, the moment it started failing (which was 7 years before I did anything about it and that included me suffering a nervous breakdown!) he was making it clear to me how he felt – he wasn’t decent enough to tell me straight but ‘show’ me though his treatment of me. I didn’t have enough self worth to believe I deserved better and so I did exactly what it says here – I invested more! I did everything, I gave him everything IN THE HOPE THAT he would suddenly think ‘what a wonderful wife’ and start being loving! Then of course because of my endless giving and getting nothing back I felt deeply resentful which affected my thoughts, outlook on life, beliefs….it all got much much worse until my breakdown -only then did I say’ its time for me’ and start claiming ‘me’ back. Even so, even after 3 years I still remain attached at times to him – still have expectations he fails to live up to, still hope that he will ‘pay me back’ for being such a great person (of course he won’t!!! EVER!!!) and at those times I feel like such a piece of rubbish. I have to remind myself I’m not doing anything for him anymore so why should he ‘repay’ me. I need to work on becoming more detached there. I can’t do NC as we have children, really not sure how to manage that relationship as he still acts like I’m crap on his shoe – I have to forgive to move on but can I forgive and still say ‘ you’re not welcome’?? For now, I just have as little to do with him as possible.
After he left I went and did it again!!! I had a relationship with someone who even told me he didn’t have the ‘resources’ to be in a relationship – both emotionally and physically and monetarily – so what did I do? I gave him money, I cleaned his house, I cooked, I gave and gave IN THE HOPE THAT he would see what a great person I was and suddenly be IN the relationship and stop telling me how crap I was. When really all along I was still telling myself I wasn’t such a great person, I didn’t deserve any better….It doesn’t work.
So this post is spot on! I do need to see what I do so I can stop doing it. As Nat says I ‘have to invest in myself and once I know and love me and my values, I then need to…
I was in a really ‘caring’ (not) relationship with a guy who attempted to do everything for me and more and who would then pressure me for sex when it didn’t come naturally to our relationship. He moved in after a couple of weeks having been kicked out of his own place by his landlord for some strange reason. I don’t recall him ever paying rent to me. It took a trained psychosexual counsellor to show me the light, that although he seemed to be a very kind and caring boyfriend, he was in fact trying his hardest to control and manipulate me in what seemed on the surface a very sweet manner. I kept telling him that just because he was doing more than was reasonable, without my request, didn’t mean I should automatically start doing unreasonable amounts of things for him. I think he was unable to let the relationship go due to over-investing in a relationship that he couldn’t accept would never be healthy, satisfying or equal. He ended up stalking me for a month when I ended it.
People can kid themselves that they are being really kind and are owed something for their generosity… except that true generosity expects nothing in return. You can’t have it both ways, being the ‘generous’ one AND demanding things in return. Also, I have noticed with guys who like to play the ‘I’m so generous’ card, that they make a big display of lavishing things on you, but then give with one hand and take with the other. For example, they might pay for dinner. Then one day, they briskly demand £20… like as if you are not in fact paying your way in the relationship. They make you pay them money and are denial about this while it’s happening, pretending it’s not happening by asking quickly, quietly and hurriedly. They don’t ask or say please, they say GIVE ME £20. They get all the glory, you get half the bill and none of the recognition for your input. They use this as a bargaining chip for control in the relationship. I resisted, but it made me look like a bitch to do so… I was aware of being manipulated so I was resisting it. They were the ‘good guy’, I was the ‘bitch’… but I’m proud of myself for opting out of those relationships.
In my mind this post has insights into why a wife might take back a cheating husband (once!) but a mistress shouldn’t. In fact it would be great if you’d do more on relationships after affairs and include the betrayed wife’s perspective. I know you’re formerly the other woman and I appreciate your insights into the woman who poked her nose in our marriage but I’d love to see your insight into betrayed wives and the mistress and how they ought to view each other. Hint: it isn’t always the MM who pursues the mistress-victim.
My first pass at the question is to say that a wife has/had a mutual and emotionally available relationship for x years, and so it’s not a case of seeking a return on an investment but finding the key to that safe deposit box. The mistress never had that as the relationship was always predicated on deception. She has no safe deposit box to open, only her investment in her gamble. And how can she expect truth, honesty and reliability when the pre-requisite was him lying and deceiving?
Also can you do more on when the mistress really fights to get the affair started… It isn’t always that she’s spun a story by the misunderstood husband.
Love the blog though, great read!
Betrayed wife-Wow. I was a betrayed wife and I’ve never been with anyone’s husband but I can tell you, men are not helpless creatures. No woman can force them into doing something they dont want to do. I agree some women can be overly agressive but she has to be given an opening and that’s where the fault lies with the man. We are all capable of not having affairs when they are offered to us. We are also all capable of staying out of unhealthy relationships and that’s what Natalie’s blog is all about.
I went back and applied some of her wisdom to the time I was being cheated on by my husband and the things he did. Had I had this website to look at, I would have left him long before I did and I would have never had stayed in contact with him for so long afterwards. I wouldnt have become so crazy trying to keep the relationship and once I left, had I cut all ties, I probably could have developed decent relationship with someone else.
Hi Betrayed,
I’m sorry your husband has betrayed you. I’ve never cheated on or with anyone but do have strong beliefs and feelings about it.
I started reading wayneandtamara.com after grace (a poster here) recommended the site to someone else. There’s a whole section on cheating that may be useful for your perspective as the wife.
Your husband had the obligation to be faithful to you, and he failed. His momentary pleasure was more important to him than your feelings of safety in the relationship.
I completely agree that women who interfere in someone else’s relationship and–worst yet–marriage are very much in the wrong. But they have their own problems and will probably pay in all kinds of ways, including emotional pain.
Betrayed
Am sorry for your position as cheated on wife – the spouse who has been cheated on is the truly innocent party.
You say: “My first pass at the question is to say that a wife has/had a mutual and emotionally available relationship for x years,”
Plenty of people are married to emotionally unavailble people. These two things are not mutually exclusive. I do agree tho’ that the wife should by rights be able to expect commitment while the OW has no right to expect anything.
You also say this:
“I’d love to see your insight into betrayed wives and the mistress and how they ought to view each other.”
I’m not sure it woud serve much practical purpose here to go over ‘how the wife and the OW “should” view eachother. They are permitted to view eachother any way they like – it’s not going to help in any practical sense. The people the wife should concern herself with is her husband and herself – the relationship she his with him, as that’s what has broken – and it broke because he betrayed his wife, yes, with the help – maybe even sometimes the manipulation of the OW – but you don’t need to be married to her, so she is not really your problem – he is! And there’s not really any escaping that. These are my views at least. I wish you well, and I do feel for you.
Another fab post Natalie. I did feel owed by the last assclown and I am embarrasseded by how far I went to collect. I didn’t realize how disordered my thinking about relationships was until I began reading this site. I felt owed – I felt his future faking equalled promises that I meant to collect on, even when it was clear he had no intention of delivering. I overinvested like mad, believing I could prove my love and worth to a self-proclaimed commitment phobe who was terrified of rejection (his own words on our first “date”). I genuinely believed I could fix him, because it was easier than fixing me and because I felt he needed to change. I never saw myself that way and he didn’t see himself that way either. He didn’t want to change, he just wanted all the benefits for free. When I became too costly, I was kicked to the curb. I felt owed, I felt cheated, I felt deceived. What I should have felt was grateful, which is what I feel now.
For all of us moaning about what we didn’t get – rejoice. We dodged a major bullet, even if it didn’t feel like it at the time. Look at any post on this site. Any woman a few months in (and hopefully NC) now sees that she is better off, healthier and glad the AC is gone. I no longer feel owed, I feel saved.
Great post and very healthy and empowering perspective.
When we begin NC, the only valid feeling we should all have is relief that we are spared a SINGLE MINUTE MORE of dealing with these guys.
The focus needs to be taken off of these guys – yes, they are assclowns, emotionally unavailable, are seriously attachment disordered, and likely NEVER to have healthy relationships in the future.
We need to focus on US. Because hanging around with these guys and doing the kinds of tap dancing we have done for them is damaging to ourselves. We are damaged for engaging with them and the ONLY way to get healthy is to recognize our part in it, let go, and start healing. Start becoming UNDAMAGED.
Betrayed
I think the wife need not have any consideration for the OW at all. Other than to insist that her husband cuts of all contact, including a new job if necessary. However, it may not be as simple as that if the OW gets pregnant. The OW ought to consider the wife, but she doesn’t otherwise she wouldn’t be having the affair.
What would help everybody in the triangle is if the OW would consider HERSELF and not get mixed up with someone who can’t or won’t give her what she wants. As for her “pursuing” him, he can always say no. I think very few woman will have sex with a man who isn’t ready, willing and actitvely encouraging her.
wayneandtamara.com deal more with affairs etc. But they’re zero tolerance and black-and-white so may not be what you are looking for.
Yeah, I think their views are not what everyone is looking for. They are certainly not the only voice.
The reason I like them is because, for me, it puts the mystery out of so many ‘love’ things. It’s nice to have that sometimes. It feels more like self-preservation. But of course I’ve never been married.
“What would help everybody in the triangle is if the OW would consider HERSELF and not get mixed up with someone who can’t or won’t give her what she wants.”
Amen to that!!!!!!!!
Thanks from me, too, Grace on the wayne and tamara website recommendation. I read it now regularly and enjoy the way they convey their advice.
OMG Natalie,
This article is so good for me! I like this quote “If you’re ‘suffering’, you should be exiting.” Simple Truth.
I did the investing, I did the suffering, and I did the leaving and continue in No Contact. I went to the gym again before work today, and 31 minutes on the treadmill, some stretches, floor exercises, and a couple of the machines… then nice shower with Oil of Olay shower soap…. have me feeling healthy and happy! Closer to my real self and happiness Day-by-Day!!!!! Hope you all have a good day, and thanks Natalie!
I kept thinking about your post all day today, all scrubbed, healthy, and glowing. I go to the gym regularly for my mental health. Good for you girl. Isn’t it amazing what can happen when we invest in ourselves just a fraction of what we invested in the losers? After reading this post and the comments, I’m feeling like I owe me! It’s been a bit challenging because I’ve always been somebody’s wife and a mother (which I still am but she’s away at school) to actually give to me instead of them.
Keep up investing in yourself. The pay off is so much greater, isn’t it? Hope you had a good day. You made mine better. Thank you.
Yes! Love the gym for the sanity it provides!
Two quotes from Byron Katie that I have post-it note attached to my computer:
“Sanity doesn’t suffer, ever.”
and
“If you loved your life, would you want to change it?”
I thought about your post today too! Something about it really connected with me! So I went to the gym and got a month pass for the first time in years. Felt great. Thanks!
I stayed with a man like that for 30 years! married at 16- I kept trying to be good and get his approval, at every turn he would turn my successes as stepping stones for himself- it took a breakdown after I went back to him, to leave finally- for peace- for myself- for my son. I am 2yrs down the line with 2 horrible nasty experiences with eums to learn the hard way -I am worthy and kind not bad like he made me feel This site has been such a truly inspiring helpful funny sad and moving thank you all xxx
Having been the “caretaker” in two marriages now, I’ve had to take a long hard look at myself and what is going on with me. I heard something on TV the other day about not “mothering” a man — instead, expect him to be a MAN. I realize that I went really wrong with this. I didn’t look for a real man that I respected and felt equal to. Part of me still finds it hard to believe that they’re actually out there. But at least I’m asking the question. And I know it’s the key to finding a relationship that actually works.
Hi All,
As I was reading these posts, I kept thinking of that Chili Pepper songs, “Knock Me Down” with that great line at the end, “It’s so lonely when you don’t even know yourself, it’s so lonely” and that has been (and still is) very true for me. I am still learning about myself, in so many ways and often, it is painful, sad, lonely and frustrating but…I am doing it, for me, myself, this time and NOT for some one else.
I have realized that all the emotional/mental/physical energy I have been giving to others, I “should have” been giving to ME. All of the nurturing I have been so good at bestowing on others, I “should have” been bestowing on me. All that wasted time, though, I am hoping, perhaps, ultimately NOT wasted if I can learn and grow from it.
Putting boundaries into place has helped me immensely. It’s been very difficult and even isolating at times because as a result I am no longer in touch with some family members or friends. This is painful to me but then, when I start to wonder if, in fact, I am doing the right thing, I stop and reflect and remember: all the times I cried after an interaction with one of them, became upset, angry or frustrated, or even had strange physical reactions as a result of being with them: headaches, digestive problems, etc…and then I take a deep breath and realize that, instead of engaging with them, I can engage with ME…read a book, watch a movie, go for a walk, just sit quietly and “be” with myself.
There is so much about life that one can not not control and yet, there is also the realization that there are parts that we can have some power over: valuing our time, and taking care of ourselves first and foremost.
Each day is a struggle and I am taking, as others have said here, “baby steps” along the way…and, I stumble a lot in the process, but, at least I am trying to be more aware now and perhaps that is something anyway.
My best to all the lovely ladies here 🙂
Putting boundaries into place has helped me immensely. It’s been very difficult and even isolating at times because as a result I am no longer in touch with some family members or friends.
Hey Lessie — hope you’re doing well!
I can so relate to your comment above–just today I had to remind myself that sometimes life empties out like this in order to create room for the new. And I find right now I am processing so much that I need to be alone just to get my head round certain things. Still, it’s lonely sometimes.
A “friend” I haven’t talked to in six weeks stopped by unannounced at my office today. Last time we spoke he joked about a boundary I had put in place with him and said he wished i was the old me who would have done what he asked (a shady real estate deal, which I wanted NO part of, and said so). After that, I really felt like his true colors came out (and i’ve known him for over 5 years) and thought he was a good guy. Today when he stopped by it was an awkward half hour of b.s. and after he left I felt immense relief (talk about energy drains and saving one’s energy for one’s self), coupled with: another one bites the dust.
I know a rebuilding is coming; i know that my life is changing on the outside because I’m changing on the inside. I remember that when I feel down and a bit lonely…so thankful for BR and all the wonderful people who post here. Cheers me up immensely. Baby steps in new shoes! 🙂
I can only speak from my own experience with a AC/MM but these men are master manipulators and liars equally to the OW AND wife (obviously) that are minimizing the marriage to the OW and once caught by wife, the relationship with the OW to the wife. I agree with the fact that it is a relationship built on lies (the affair) but that definitely goes both ways. A lot of these men are future faking am entire future with the OW, As recently out of this horrific situation, I definitely am now taking ownership of my role in it, however usually these men are not emotionally available to of course to the OW, but NOT to the wife either. They are sad and have to live with themselves. We deserve much better than the crap they feed us.
The ONLY thing that I am owed is the responsibility I owe myself to act in my own best interest, and to treat myself with love, care, and respect. If I see red flags and do not opt out ASAP, then I am sabotaging my emotional well being. And that my friends, is not an option.
With you on that Gina! I owe myself time to be gentle with myself and take time and space to recover. I owe myself respect for going and sticking to NC…and I owe myself a happy and fulfilled future whether that’s in a relationship or not..
These posts come at exactly the right time. I did everything to try and make him want/love me. Gave him a place to live/money/my car/found him work. Tied myself up in knots as i believed he would love me after i did all of the above. Needless to say he had another one on the side. I dont feel he owes me anything as hell will freeze over before he ever apologises for the hurt he caused me. I just feel stuck and miserable whilst he is away married to the new one. I wish i had listened to the woman inside me when i thought something was wrong in the relationship. Wasnt till i went columbo on him and found out about his infidelity. Dont really care what he thinks of me anymore as i am doing okay i just get stuck on how they move on so quickly and someone else reaps the benefit of my misfortune
When I was in relationship with my Ex EUM, I actually felt like I owed him. I put him on pedestal and treated him like a king because I had a low self esteem.
The truth was, he was just a great manipulator. He knew what to do or say to make me feel certain way. Towards the end of our “relationship” he was driving me crazy with his cold behavior.
Then I came across this website and went immediately NC. I am so glad I am sticking to NC.
These men are by no means pushed into affairs by the women and should not be viewed as misunderstood. They are lying cowards who are not addressing their real issues with their marriage while faking a future and making promises to someone else. Yes the OW pays in emotional pain , especially for believing the lies…but it’s the man who is paying more bc they have to live with themselves. They are not persuaded into this “double life”. They choose it .
I had to reread this one twice and slowly!
It hit nerve upon nerve in me.My ex was the type of person who Bought things for me instead of showing or saying kind things,I honestly mistook that for Actions speak louder than words.
I on the other hand,am extremely emotional,would have no problems saying I love you,only to get ‘Iknow’…I always felt I was owed something more,and I would amp it up time and time again,only to come up short!
Yup I was the Doormat that kept taking the verbal abuse,because I honestly thought that if I could do this,or learn that,that he would ‘COME TO HIS SENSES’and love me…It never happened,they are empty wells.When he dissapeared by cowardess,I again felt I was OWED closure,I begged,cried,emailed,called,all to no avail…because I thought I was OWED closure,and again what a fool I was..I have found for the most part,the closure I needed,all I have to do is really examine him,I mean things he said and did,and I realize its NOT ME!!!Today I OWE it to myself to find healthy people and with this site as my guide,I am learnig how to do that!.
Brenda
Thanks for the recent posts Natalie! I have not commented here in awhile but I do read your posts religiously. I always get something from them, lesson learned, or just how to improve my coping skills and move on.
One thing which I keep wondering in the back of my head is where did we ever get the idea we could “fix” people? What is it that keeps us in these behaviors, different name-same type of guy kind of thing? We think we learned from our mistakes only to find another EUM. We may be a little quicker to pick up on the signs now (thanks to you) but we still have the tendency to look for the old familiar. Is this a unresolved childhood issue with our parents? Or are women (and sometimes men too) just wired to be helpy helpertons?
betterwithout
I’m not a helpy helperton, but I’ve been around people who are and one of my friends is. From observation, I think it comes down to:
1. Wanting to be liked. I like you well enough, you don’t have to keep doing stuff for me, I’m a grown adult! I find it irritating to have to keep turning down offers for help I don’t need. However, if I was a man being offered sex, a cleaner, a cook, and attention, would I turn it down? Probably not. Especially if I didn’t have to give anything in return!
2. Wanting a return on investment – If I do this for you, maybe you will do what I want.
3. Wanting to feel special. If I can turn round this thief/liar/cheat/addict/commitment phobe then I must be really special. It’s inverted ego. On the one hand, it’s thinking too much of yourself – I can change this person, I can make this person like me because I’m so attractive/ successful/ good at sex cooking / cleaning/ conversation/ being pleasant/ that I can win him over. On the other hand, it’s thinking TOO LITTLE of yourself. Someone with healthy self esteem would say – I’m not standing for this, I’m off! Having healthy self esteem isn’t about telling yourself how fantastic you are. It’s about recognising your limitations too. None of us has the power to change another person, especially one who doesn’t want to be changed and is happy with the status quo thanks. Those with healthy self esteem realise that and can walk away. The rest of us take it as a personal insult.
Better Without, I’m sure Grace’s reasons pop up too but for me, as a recovering Florence Nightingale the helping behaviour was always about Control. I repeated my need to control the behaviour of an alcoholic mother in several relationships… it gave me some sense of anchor. Sure, low self esteem is there too but when you are cast to winds as child…you try and make sense of it. For me this was taking on board organising day to day things,hiding bottles,getting her sober for work. I did not need to be liked, nor feel important… I needed to feel normal and for my family life to be perceived as normal. Sorry Grace, in my experience it’s not always about inverted ego, a child developing patterns of behaviour cannot always say ‘I am not standing for this’. For me…it is much more complex than that. I reverted to what I knew ‘Love to be’…to attempt to control the uncontrollable. Of course I came a cropper…
I am trying to wrap my mind around whether these two comments were that dissimilar.
Codependence and low self-esteem seem so interrelated to me.
Lynda from L, have you ever been to a group or seminar for adult children of alcoholics? I’m curious about what kind of concrete recommendations they give to participants.
Jupiter, yes I think co-dependence and low self esteem are inter-related. I have suffered from both and my coping mechanism…how it manifests in my overt behaviour was to control others/situations. When I couldn’t control… I felt out of control and the relationship would falter.
I would bring about it’s demise. I was emotionally unavailable in many relationships. Due primarily to a lack of trusting anyone else apart from myself. I could rely on myself…a throwback to childhood.
With regard to attending groups, yes I have done this and it has helped as well as being on this site for a couple of years. I have talked a lot about my relationship with my Mum in earlier posts too. One of the biggest lessons is not to ‘blame the child in you’ but to understand how your ego defences develop through your experiences as a child growing in a chaotic environment.
This is where I claim a slightly different opinion to Grace, although I always suck up her wisdom and take on things she thinks!
I am still on the road to a happy relationship but making progress,with a few setbacks along the way. I value your comments and all the other brilliant posts on this site.
This post fits me to a T. I’ve been married for 11 years and am getting divorced. I spent most of those 11 years cooking, shopping, cleaning and taking his clothes to the dry cleaners (on top of working full time and helping my mother take care of my father), just to be belittled and emotionally abused. My husband has diabetes and I took care of him when he was sick. When I was sick, he pretty much left the room. Does he owe me? Well, when it comes to asset division, yes. He thinks he can run off with his stock options that he earned all by himself but he has another thing coming. Do I feel like a fool? Yes. I made a big mistake this summer to get involved with a married man who did a number on me, emotionally. And the weird thing is, I feel like I’m having a harder time getting over this married man than I am my husband, probably, in part, because the EU/MM was so “nice” to me…I had completely forgotten what it was like to have attention, admiration and affection. But that, too, was a sham. My divorce proceedings start next week. At some point in the near future, I’ll be a single woman again. Yes, I’m lonely and sad, and it’s hard for me to envision myself with a “normal” man in the future. But I know it’s better than being with either of these two jerks.
Heartache
I do know what you mean about the MM being nice to you:
“And the weird thing is, I feel like I’m having a harder time getting over this married man than I am my husband, probably, in part, because the EU/MM was so “nice” to me…”
It feels like “nice” after being belittled and emotionally abused for years by your husband, but be careful now of what you identify as “nice” – a married man leading you up the garden path into a fruitless affair with him (and this guy sounded really quite manipulative to me) – no matter how “nicely” he appears to be going about it – is not him being “nice” to you, not by any standards.
I definitely felt owed in my last relationship, especially towards the end of it. While he was pulling further away from me, I rationalized his behaviour and justified how he was treating me and continued to try harder and harder to make things work. The whole time I kept telling myself that he’d appreciate my efforts and how much I supported him, encouraged him, how patient I was, etc., etc. Long story short, the more I did and the harder I tried, the worse he treated me and I eventually worked up the courage to end it. Unfortunately, after 10 months NC I ran into him at a club this past weekend. Actually, I wouldn’t say I ran into him. More like he showed up there, then proceeded to go out of his way to get in my line of vision so I could see that he was snubbing me. It was ridiculous. I left so angry that he had been so intentionally immature. Oh, and at one point, he went out of his way to push past me through the crowd on the dance floor, even though he could have gone around and not had to deal with me. And while he was pushing past me, he rubbed up against my back, and when I turned and saw that it was him grinding up against me, he had the nerve to look away as if he didn’t see me. What a dick. As if I wouldn’t notice that. Sorry for the rant. The whole thing just upset me is all.
What a loser. Keep your head high.
No kidding. For somebody who seems like a great guy on paper, he’s got the emotional maturity of a teenager. I guess expecting some level of civility from him was foolish on my part, I know how immature he is. Ah well, at least I know now that he hasn’t grown up any since I left him.
I was just walking on Broadway behind this man and woman, mid-20’s. The woman was tipsy and dressed provocatively. She was saying, “If you were my man, I would cook for you. You wouldn’t have to go out to eat or get takeout. I would cook for you…. naked!” He put his arm around her in a palsy way and said, “Whose status (fb obviously) is ‘a good girl is just a bad girl with manners’ ” (something like that)
And I thought, sometime next week or next month she is going to be asking her girlfriends why he hasn’t called and what does it mean when he texts her sexy and then cold.
She was begging to be a fallback girl. It was incredible.
Sometimes we get these little windows onto other people’s relationships and it’s so illuminating, isn’t it? Always easier to see what’s going on from a distance.
Your story reminds me of being at the beach earlier this summer. A young buff guy and a beautiful young girl walked by me, holding hands as he strode along, almost pulling her, her trying to keep up. I caught only a few words of their conversation.
Him: “You don’t have to say anything, just make me look good.”
Her: … [stumble, trip, fix bikini strap] … mumble
Him: “That’s your job, just make me look good, okay?”
I thought: hmm, I wish my exAC had just put it so bluntly! I would have understood why he kept me around, only to treat me like poo when we were alone! My guess is this young man, after losing a few gfs, may eventually learn not to put his real reasons for picking women into such clear terms.
Yeah, I was sitting at a train station recently and a couple of young women were talking about guys who didn’t phone them back. They were intelligent, beautiful girls. One of them said
‘ I wish he would just let me into his head space.. I texted him four times last night to say how I love the expressions he uses, and how he did so well at that meeting and how I liked his shirt, and how well I thought our last date had gone.’
Her friend asked her what he had replied, and she said,
‘Well, he double checked my number…he wasn’t sure who I was…and then he asked whether I was still going to the gym because my thighs were looking great…’
Sigh…no higher ground claimed here…but c’mon, unequal transaction or what????
Lynda
that just about say it all! She’s expending energy to get into conversation with someone who only finds her legs memorable!
Let’s break ot down, b/c he is being pretty clear as to where his head (upper and lower) is really at:
1. If she had had sex with him: then the legs are what he remembers most (especially, ahem, if she has long legs!); the sex didn’t bring him closer to her mind or her soul.
2. If she didn’t have sex with him: then her compliments and her brains are the last thing on his mind; he is trying to tell her she is sexy (he is hoping she sees his comment this way, that is), but he is really thinking, “I want to be between those thighs.”
And then laugh about it all with the rest of the guys from the office later on…after he gets (or keeps getting and is through with) what he wants: sex.
She is very naive to be talking about this on the train.
He has picked up on that! (He even told her he had to double-check her #. She shoudl have hung up right then and there!)
….I can only imagine how the ass clown
population will grow as the ass clowns spread their seeds and raise protégées….ugh…..
“If you become too focused on what you’re ‘giving’, it ceases to be wholehearted – it becomes The Stuff I Do To Provoke You Into Giving Back What I Want. That’s not giving to them; that’s giving to you albeit via a very convoluted and painful route.”
A MILLION TIMES YES. a few months in, past the chat about what we feel about each other, I found myself doing that a lot. In fact, I’ve done roundabout a year of that. My focus has been on how little he gives, how little he invests, how much I do, and we have fought like mad about it. He’s said that ‘oh I know you give me more than I give you’ and when I suggested that he could do much of the same, he flatly said that he couldn’t.
Rather than realising what it was and what it is (even right now)–a relationship that is supposedly “mutual” that’s actually just an assload of me giving, and focusing on that. He’s not pulling his weight because he doesn’t want to, plain and simple. I’ve been obsessed about apportioning our contributions but the underlying issue has escaped me–why do I want to be with someone who throws back crumbs when I give cake? This is not a relationship, its a one sided stalk-affair! SO many arguments about why he dowright ignores me, why he manages me by text/email, why he doesn’t hang around….
When, really, I should just get the hell out. He’s doing another disappearing act and he can stay disappeared! I know I cling to this because I’m scared of finding love/facing issues within, but it’s so painful and self-destructive. It’s come to a point where he doesn’t even ACKNOWLEDGE the things I do. Just takes them and enjoys the fringe benefits. Need to get onto NC again properly, I caved at 2 weeks!
D, I hope you stay strong in your NC this time. From the few things you have written, this guy is obviously no good, and someone who wants to be with you would never put you through this, and have the nerve to say he can’t give you what you give him. How selfish.
And the multiple talks about him ignoring you, not hanging around – I’ve been there – I felt like I was solving something by talking about these major issues, only to realize that he’d never really do much about them.
Do not let him back into your life when he decides to reappear again. It is so easy to forget how bad they make us feel.
A friend of mine, who has been in a completely tumultuous relationship for the past 2 years is unfortunately, in the bitter gripes of the “investment” debate. He got her an iPad and Tiffany’s jewelry, he paid for half of her living room couch, but she paid for everything for his new puppy, as well as countless gas tanks for his car. So, how do you know what’s equal? They have been going back and forth constantly, about who owes what and who OWNS what. It’s really sad to see two people who have been so happy, now letting their relationship become a matter of money. I think it’s a cry for attention to one another, but also, if they couldn’t end it and go their separate ways peacefully, then it seems like something that was never going to work anyway.
After investing so much energy in the relationship with the EUM I feel wasted and empty.
Sometimes I’m optimistic about the existence of a normal guy, who would treat me with respect and love.
The sad part is that sometimes I feel that, even if that man would exist, I wouldn’t be able to find happiness. I can’t imagine myself happy with a man.
What if, one day, I’ll have all the reasons in the world to be happy and I’ll be miserable, and more than that, I’ll feel guilty for not feeling happiness?
And then I think that one of the reasons I chose EUMs is that I could blame them for my inability to feel happiness. Now I don’t date and it’s somehow relieving. I know that is too early to meet that man.
Is it the emptiness after investing too much in an illusion or is it me?
mirelle,
Oh dear…. poor you! Stop worrying about ‘what ifs’ – that’s just stuff that hasn’t happened yet and may never happen – you do not want to be a self-fulfilling prophecy! You feel empty and wasted because that’s how investing in EUMs make us feel, but you must fill your life up with *you*, with what’s good for you; love yourself (etc.) or you will feel empty with or without an man, EU or not. Give yourself time to get better before worrying about what lies ahead. When you’re better, stronger and more self-assured, the future, with or without a man, will look better too.
Hi Adrienne, Runner Girl, Magnolia, Australia and Everyone,
Australia, I like what you wrote about the “Wishbone/Backbone” analogy, it’s so very true and yes, I am trying to strengthen my “back” bone as opposed to the “wish bone” I have been carrying around with me.
Runner Girl, I hope you’re doing well sweetie. I smiled when I read that had tried a new hummus recipe, good for you (and his loss that not only does he not like hummus but doesn’t get to have any of yours either!) After my break up, I began to experiment with Indian cooking and its been most enjoyable, a nice way to occupy some of my thoughts.
Magnolia, like many others, I also really loved your writer analogy, being one myself or, at least, “trying” to be…and also the part about seeing qualities in others that you feeling are lacking within, I very much relate to this,.
Adrienne, “Baby steps in new shoes” and dare I say, we both deserve a sexy stylish new pair of shoes for what we have both endured 🙂 Thank you for your kind words to me. Yes, having boundaries in place has proven to be both very positive for me (if not a bit strange, I think this is the first time in my life that I have actually done anything like this AND stuck to it) and yet also, as you noted, it can be very isolating too.
And like yourself, I do feel a very need for solitude to be able to wrap my head around all that has occurred of late with me. I have a friend who I love dearly but is, for all intents and purposes, a “Negative Nellie” sort and in the past, spending time with her, while fun, short term, had a very negative influence on me in the long term.
The other evening, she kept trying to bust my boundaries saying “Have a drink” and “Stay later” both of which were in direct opposition to my earlier statements of “I’m trying to detox and don’t want to drink” and “I don’t want to drive after dark because my night vision isn’t good”…BUT, I was resolute and firm, saying, “I’m sorry, no, I can’t” and as I was driving back, I realized I was smiling and I thought to myself, “One small boundary defended this time”…
Hugs to everyone 🙂
Man did I over invest . I was blinded by love for my ex. Now I realise he was just using me for sex. He hardly put any effort onto us and let me do all the work. I realise maybe I was just good arm candy, so he would look good. We always did things with his friends (double dates), but not that much alone. He always left me alone while out. He says i wasnt outgoing, but i had no choice. I had to talk to others, i hsd no choice! I am so angry at myself.
I have really enjoyed reading the comments on this particular topic. What a fantastic group of women we have on here!! You ladies are survivors and I find your stories truly inspirational! The absolute BEST therapy fir healing from a breakup is being good to yourself. The better you start to teat yourself, the better you will start to feel about yourself. So go ahead–spoil and pamper yourselves rotten! You will notice a positive change in yourself, which will attract other positive people in your life. Once you are in a good place, happy with yourself, and ready for a new and healthy relationship, sit down with a piece of paper and write down, in great detail, the type of healthy man that you want to meet. Write as though you are confident that you will meet him and use either the present or future tense when describing him.
And then buy a pasta machine, just in case it never happens.
(the voice of experience)
This is a wonderfully insightful post, NML. It really dissects the psychology of why we choose to remain in hopeless, dangerous situations, and the implications underpinning the concept of “giving”. I equated being an “indispensable over giver” with unconditional/selfless loving and was like a beggar-child pleading, starving and starved for love from my ex-EUM. I was so preoccupied trying to give all of myself and win over his affection, I was convinced that he was the love of my life and that nothing/no one was humanly out of reach/unsolvable or really, a “lost cause”. To have had to work so hard and invest all that effort and energy (I cleaned, cooked, massaged, wrote love letters, bought gifts, slept with him, made virtually no demands etc. ) without any reciprocity (apart from plenty of crumbs SMS communication, a few nice evenings… it’s easy to feign being Mr. loving Gentleman when these dates are so sporadic), should have cued me in that something was dreadfully wrong. I think that a person with healthy boundaries and self-esteem would have bailed out within the first week but I chose the opposite route, hanging on for 2 years– this was really flawed thinking on my part that I could “convert” him to realize how worthy I was as a partner, my wishful fantasies that he would have his great moment of epiphany. It’s so easy to mistake the quest for validation and recognition as love.
On hindsight, I feel extremely stupid and humiliated for having gone through such extreme lengths distorting myself into some compliant patriarchal fantasy figure, trying to accommodate all his needs, repressing my own dissatisfaction (he actually told me that he would turn a deaf ear if I started complaining and that he was not interested in hearing any “grievances”). I hate to think of how I appeared to him. I’m angry that he exploited my generosity and that he never kept any of his promises (but what was I to expect of someone who gave so many hints in a casual context: that he would have no qualms taking whatever he could and whatever was on offer, whose colleague confirmed his narcissism). Yes, I felt that he owed me so many explanations and apologies for his lousy behaviour and for causing me so much emotional anguish, but I’m not going to hang on to wait for this dialogue to come, or to wait for him to morph into a decent human being. I admit I…
I am pissed off that the breakup doesn’t seem to affect them. That it’s ok ciz they always have a harem or back up girl waiting for them. I didn’t have a harem or back up plan. What is the point in doing the right thing? I had no one to fall back on.
Fedup, as has been talked about before you’re very clearly in the anger stage and even at times vengeful. You don’t know how he’s affected. Let’s be real – Part of the reason why many men and women quickly move onto someone else *is* because they are avoiding being affected.
Oh, that’s a very very familiar thought, fedup, I have it on a regular basis.
Sometimes I can console myself with the thought that he’ll go through life without ever knowing or understanding the joy of having a ‘real’ relationship, where you work through the difficulties and obtain a proper level of commitment, understanding and intimacy. Sometimes.
At other times I just mentally cover him with jam and release the killer mutant wasps. That works pretty well.
Since I have posted comments on this blog about investments in relationships and not being appreciated, I felt I should follow through. I need my offerings of love to be seen for what they are but have found that they have been frequently misinterpreted. If I had been on the receiving end of my offerings, I would have been as happy as a pig in mud. (Feel free to run with this one…)
There are so incredibly many variables at play here that no two situations are identical. Answers to these questions give context to the posts: Which person is the most needy? Which person is more responsible for the quality of their life? Which person understands themselves the best? Which person sees the relationship in the widest context? Which person had the most challenging/damaging past? Is substance abuse involved? What are the objectives for being in a romantic relationship? Is there a desire for true heart-connection? What communication styles do each use? What language does each use to express need and to attempt to meet the needs of the other? Is the motivation of the giver altruistic or manipulative?
As a man, I appreciate Philip’s earlier attempt to finesse the conversation by mentioning Service in reference to The Five Love Languages which are: Words of Affirmation, Quality Time, Gifts, Acts of Service and Physical Touch. These are all equal forms of “investment”. Author Gary Chapman talks about the importance of being able to express love to your “other” in a way that they can understand. However, most people talk and act to the other in a way they would personally understand, not in the way their other understands. Women, in spite of GENERALLY being more intuitive, responsible and concerned about relationships, do not seem to truly understand the nature of Men: Males are more than emotionally deficient females. I feel we would all benefit from making fewer statements to the other and ask more questions instead. Oh, and then actually Listening to the response. (Note Bene: Men take at least 10 seconds to reply to a “feeling” question, which is about 10-20 times longer than women require to reply. We do try, we just need uncluttered space to figure out what our response is. It is just the way we are.)
From years in the hitech world, I have observed that problems which resist a solution are usually defined incorrectly, using the wrong assumptions, criteria and “data structures”. Rather than continue to hopelessly beat on the problem, reexamining the way we define the problem can pay off big time. I heard Christopher Ryan lecture on his book “Sex At Dawn” last night. Among other things, he described the difference between “being in love” and “loving” which resonated with my experience. “Being in love” was defined as a state of needing and consuming someone else’s love: pulling it in. “Loving” was defined as giving Love unconditionally: sending it out. We each need to ask ourselves which way that force is flowing for us and why.
Many thanks for the suggestions and opinions. I am in no way absolving my husband. But I do recognize that she Told him to set up a secret email, to show me her emails to his “normal” account so I wouldn’t suspect, to get a second phone, to use text and chat and te times to check when I would think he was working. Also teaching him what to say to our son to prepare him for divorce without raising my suspicions and even “dumping” him to make herself look less heartless – she did it so well he worried she would hurt herself and she had him back within a fee weeks. She literally admitted seeing us in a cafe and deciding she preferred him to her husband and that she was smarter and prettier and could win him. That was a year before the affair! She also admitted trying to get him to go so far in the affair – tell lies that weren’t needed, go further sexually- so that I would never forgive and he’s have no marriage to go back to.
My husband hasn’t blamed her at all, he takes full responsibility for letting her. But I’ve read every email, every chat, every text and every card. I see this in her words.
Oh and I remember NML saying hand on heart she’d never go with a man with kids. Well we had our last child 2weeks into the affair! He told her the name before he called his sister!
Anyway. I was only saying that while some women are sucked in by UM some go out and hunt them for fun. He wasn’t her first and he won’t be her last. And I still think that pushing and pushing for a relationship with a depressed MM with a baby due is pretty darned low and not what most women on here would do!
Hi Betrayed Wife, I made a mental note earlier this week to address your comment. I think your chosen name on here gives me a sense of what you want to convey about yourself and it’s understandable after what you’ve experienced. That said, any betrayal done here is by your husband. I’m not saying she hasn’t exploited an opportunity where he was vulnerable, but I’m very uncomfortable with this being pitched as if you were two victims of a marriage burglary. If you’ve been burgled, your husband aided and abetted and then turned on his accomplice. Her own behaviour is reprehensible but to make her actions the focus may have you blinded to what the real issues are.
I noted you pointed out a few times that I was the OW – I’ve also been cheated on by my ex fiancé. Oh he denied it but then she made the ‘silly’ mistake of telling my friend that they were celebrating their anniversary…even though we were just about to be broken up for a year. The truth is that I had suspected it for a while before we broke up but kept denying my intuition. One time he came back after a rendezvous and gave me a packet of pork scratchings and another time a dress… I could blame it on her being a man stealer or me having my own issues. In reality, he cheated because of himself.
You don’t fix problems by getting your end away elsewhere.
This safe deposit box you refer to is dubious. A relationship takes two. That means this so called box has two contributors. After one of you cheats, when you go back to the box, you’ll discover that what you thought was in there isn’t due to his duplicity.
The only person here that is a ‘victim’ in this circumstance is you. I personally know a number of couples that have recovered from betrayal. It takes hard work and honesty on both sides. If you continue to focus on this woman and keep making him out to be the bumbling Inspector Clueso of infidelity, with his hapless self being taken advantage of by the evil, scheming mistress, you will miss the point of what this experience is supposed to teach you.
When people cheat because they experience problems in their relationship or with themselves, you get a window into how they handle their business. In this case, it was by avoiding himself and the problems in an affair. Your marriage will have other things that crop up in the future – I suggest that you both (esp him) focus on addressing that.
Oh I meant to say- when he dumped his mistress and went NC she started emailing him at the secret email. He gave that up and asked me to change the password. So for 8 months she’s been emailing me without knowing! She says she’s owed an explanation, owed closure, owed a meeting. Says he is a coward.
Actually I think she is owed nothing as she shouldn’t have been there and is delusional to think a man can break up gently and still be respectful of his wife.
But she still goes on about how cruel it is to just send a break up email and go totally silent. I think it’s the only honest way!
So what IS a good reason in your view for a wife to give a husband a second chance? Because I bet giving him (one!) more chance to return on the investment figures for most people.
Coming in late to this discussion…I think most if not all of us that have posted would give our men or women second chances. But how many have you really already given him?
If it were me, I would give him a second chance if you love him, and are not just hell bent on “making him pay”. A friend’s MM’s wife has been through this many times, though with the same other woman, and other assclown behavior from him. Yet she keeps taking him back, allowing him to burst boundaries, and in general is the man’s mommy spanking him each time and shaking her finger with him agreeing like a good little boy to not to do it again…
it can become a game with them. Give him one chance or whatever boundary you set (in y0ur own mind, not just what’s agreeable to him!) and stick to it – follow through- demand respect.
My own relationship ended because I didn’t do that, though it was not due to infidelity. I kept drawing lines in the sand, he kept crossing them (or in his case NOT even trying to be a good father or husband), but it I had adhered to the boundaries, I might have saved the marriage. You HAVE to demand respect, and walk away if he doesn’t treat you with respect, or he’ll keep walkin’ all over you.
For what it’s worth- some have said the wife or (husband) is a victim- I say (normally) it takes two to tango, and while the spouse should not stray, sometimes it’s both parties breaking those vows. Infidelity is just one violation of the vows; there are plenty more broken in all kinds of ways.
I wish you luck.
That’s such an odd question. I mean, how would you determine what your investment is and the return that you’re owed? What if you think you’ve invested emotional and energy billions and he sees it as an investment of thousands? What if he thinks he’s already giving you a return? What about his own ‘investment’?
You can take back someone for whatever reasons you like. Whether they hold up in the medium and long-term, or even in the short-term is another matter.
I don’t understand why one would take someone back to flog them for a return. Well I do understand what’s behind the thinking but whatever happened to taking someone back because you genuinely love one another, you’re both accountable and honest, and both doing the work to move forward?
I know people who have recovered their relationships and marriages after cheating – the person who cheated is 100% accountable and not blaming it on others and the person who was cheated on, has forgiven, has gradually built up their trust again, is doing their part in addressing issues and isn’t there rattling their relationship money box saying ‘you owe me goddammit’.
Nobody wants to stay in a relationship to ‘pay back a debt’ that they’re told they owe to a relationship bailiff.
Good luck Betrayed Wife. You’ve already taken him back so debating the reason only undermines that decision. You don’t need me or anyone else to validate it – the proof of your decisions and thinking is in the pudding results.
It’s natural to feel “owed”, that’s what we do as human beings. But our naivete that someone is going to reciprocate, and taking offense when they do not, only serves to hurt us. That is the lesson we have to learn, and we need to not throw the baby out with the bathwater by completely refusing to trust again.
Nat, while a friend gave me “The Bitch Book” fairly early on in the relationship, I was strong on some counts, but I faked myself out telling myself that I could handle his manipulations and lies…I was a willing participant because I thought I could “win”, and that things would be different if he weren’t with her. Well, he never left her so I was left holding the bag and with the realization that I stood by and let it happen, and wasted years in the process.
Boy was I wrong. Five years down the road I’m still reeling. But I won’t do that again!
I’ve learned so much from your work, you’re a Godsend!