Listening to a reader explain their tumultuous involvement with their on again/off-again boyfriend recently, I was struck by the obvious power struggle that they both seem oblivious to. Each one keeps returning, leaving, or promising and then passive aggressively undermining it. Or they keep trying to have the ‘last word’ because they want to have power over the other person and how the relationship proceeds or ends. This isn’t a mutual relationship with love, care, trust, respect and shared values. No, this is two people playing to ‘win’, only they seem to have missed the memo that a relationship is about two people co-piloting with a joint agenda, not fighting for supremacy.
The ‘driver’ (there is always a more powerful party in unhealthy relationships that’s struggling with a ‘passenger’) wants things on their terms. Not only do they want to do the relationship their way, but if they feel like it, they’re going to hang around like something rotting in your life until they see fit to be ‘done’ or you remove their power over you by opting out.
The passenger thinks the way to get the relationship they want is to become the driver, make the driver less powerful, or convince the driver to let them share the ‘wheel’. Not gonna happen.
If your relationship is unhealthy and you keep going back or seem hell-bent on ‘proving’ something or even disproving it, you are being sidetracked by your ego that has embarked on a power struggle.
Love is not about having power over people. Nor is it about giving over your personal power like some sort of shady dowry in exchange for the love, validation and identity that you need. It isn’t about having a relationship on ‘your terms’.
If you were in a truly mutually respectful relationship where you are both in reality, you’d have both gone through the discovery phase of dating, moved on into a relationship and organically come together to work on your relationship and its direction.
You are mistaking love for power. In doing so, relationships become about you gaining power from someone or having the power to influence and change them, or feeling that because things haven’t gone your way that the only way that you can feel ‘whole’ again or proceed is if you forcibly or passive aggressively grab your power back [from them].
You may even want the person and the relationship to be your ‘power supply‘, breathing life into you and giving you an identity. These are things that you should have and keep before and during a relationship. In fact, you may have convinced yourself that it all went wrong when you stopped being in control of the relationship possibly due to ‘one false move’.
Healthy relationships are not power struggles.
The moment that you admit you’re wrestling with someone for power over them, you, or the relationship, is the moment you admit that this relationship isn’t working and cannot proceed.
Respectful, healthy interactions and emotional maturity do not involve abandoning yourself. They don’t involve resigning your personal power in the ‘pursuit’ of ‘ownership’ and ‘control’ of another person.
The pain and the grief experienced when these relationships inevitably hit a point where you cannot ignore the depths of unhealthiness and/or they end can feel debilitating and mind blowing.
How can we not have power over them? We’ve ‘invested’, we’ve sacrificed, we’ve loved, chased, admired and pumped them up and often busted our own boundaries in the process. How?
If you look at the average unavailable relationship, it’s a power struggle.
Affair
Trying to have the power to influence them into choosing you over ‘them’ and leave and make you legitimate. They’re trying to continue the affair on their terms, often being manipulative with words and actions to ensure they don’t jeopardise your continuing.
Casual
Trying to get them to do things on your terms and upgrade you from being more than ‘booty’ or a pastime. Trading sex for power and love then realising it’s not power or love. They’re trying to have all the trappings without the commitment or the effort, often by giving the impression of a future and holding the power to decide the fate of the ‘relationship’.
Rebound
Trying to take over an ex’s position in their heart, mind, and life. You want the power to heal and influence them out of loving their ex into loving you. They’re trying to continue mentally holding onto someone else. This is all while often avoiding their feelings, while trying to hold on to you, while trying not to give too much.
Abuse
Trying to right the wrongs of your past and trying to get their abusive ways under your control and be the exception to the rule. They’re trying to keep you under their control by diminishing your personal power. You’re then too fatigued and wounded to see them for who they are and move on.
When you know that they’re a game player and you don’t tell them to jog on, you continue participating. You think that playing will give you an opportunity to pull a power move and gain power over the situation. They recognise by your participation that you’re ‘game’.
The ‘driver’ game player thrives on control. Once they know the pattern and work out how to ‘jig your lock‘, their winning the power struggle (in their mind) can be as simple as getting you to return a call.
Any relationship where it feels like loss of your personal power or you’re both wrestling for power over the relationship isn’t a relationship; it’s a power struggle.
It’s a code red, abort mission situation.You cannot continue doing the equivalent of repeatedly wrestling someone to the ground for a relationship or trying to do a ‘land grab’.
You may think you’re fighting for a mutual relationship; you’re not. Someone who doesn’t instigate a dynamic of non-mutuality by tipping the balance and pulling power plays will seek to be an equal in a relationship, naturally. They’re not looking to own or control you or the relationship by doing things on their terms. They recognise the power of a co-piloted relationship and don’t get their kicks or ticks in their ego box from gaining power.
They have their own personal power – self-esteem – and value you coming along with yours.
When you for fight someone for ‘power’ in an already non-mutual relationship, you’re actually fighting for it to be on your terms because you think yours are ‘better’ or ‘right’ because they suit you or how you see the relationship. Or you may fight simply because you think it’s ‘fair’ and that it’s your ‘turn’. ‘Well…you’ve had five years of having things on your terms so gimme my go! It’s NOT fair!’
And as you’ve already seen if you’ve been in an unhealthy relationship, after you take your ‘turn’, which as the passenger is likely to be short-lived, they seek their power again and essentially go ‘My turn!’
If you do genuinely want to be happy and to be in a mutual relationship, create your own personal power with your self-esteem.
The reason why these power struggles play out is because your self-esteem is rocky and your relationships are a source of identity, validation, and power. Whereas, if you have your own power and identity and you hold onto it instead of coming into relationships and investing your entire self in a gamble for an identity, you’d walk away as soon as the imbalance and lack of mutuality becomes apparent.
The important thing to remember is this: You always have power; you just might not be using it or you’re putting your energies into the wrong things and wrong people.
Thoughts?
The Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship is now available from my bookshop along with Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl. You can also check out my ecourses.
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Excellent Nat! I found that in my bad relationships, this stuff would get down on such a ridiculous level. I mean, r-i-d-i-c-u-l-o-us! Let me give an example:
Healthy Relationship: Hmmm, I’m dying to see this new exhibition at the museum! I bet the dude I’m dating would find it interesting too. I’m going see if he wants to go.
Result: Proceeds to contact dude and ask him if he wants to go. This is accomplished by actually speaking into the telephone. They make plans to go.
Unhealthy Relationship: Hmmmm, I’m pretty sure he went to a museum exhibit with that ex-girlfriend that I’m *sure* he treated much better than me. Therefor, he must go with me, because then I’ll know I’m getting somewhere. Maybe if I get on some real CIA-level sh*t, I can accidently-on purpose suggest a drink at a bar afterwards where all my friends are and then he will have MET MY FRIENDS!
Result: Asks dude if he wants to go. Via text. Dude is determined to “keep it light” so does not respond and hopes she gets the hint. Alternately, dude goes to the museum. Spends entire time making oblique references to ex-girlfriend (who, you know, asked too much of him too!)and hopes she gets the hint. In both cases, dude more than likely disappears for at least three to six weeks, apparently terrified by two-line text message invite/two hour trip around the Renoirs.
Let me put it to you this way ladies…which one sounds more fun?! 🙂
Great breakdown of this scenario, Natasha!
I’d add that the “Unhealthy Relationship” scenario you describe here often gets started, because the guy and the girl ended up kissing or hooking up one night when there was alcohol involved, but he was never really sure how into her he was in the first place. So he gives it a try for a little while but feels increasingly unhappy but doesn’t want to be “mean” and end it and so the situation lingers on longer than it should. Avoiding this situation is, for me, the #1 reason to avoid kissing a guy until y’all have actually been on a couple official dates; at least then you know he isn’t just acting on spur-of-the-moment horniness (which all of us feel with a little alcohol in our systems!).
lol museums!
Actual scenario:
My friend’s brother is performing at an event. Ask boyfriend to come-with. Friend is a fairly new friend I’ve made at work, whom I have confided in about bf acting strangely. We go to the show, bf is unimpressed. After, friend and his posse ask us to go with them to dinner. Boyfriend takes my arm and smoothly says we have other plans and steers me away from group. I had really wanted to go, but don’t want to argue. We get takeout (I pay). He makes snarky comments about having seen performance art like that 20 years ago at college.
That night is the grand opening of a new art museum 2 blocks away from his house. The museum is open all night, and free. My friend had gone earlier that day and said it was a blast. I suggest we go. Boyfriend says better to go in the wee hours of the morning. We both fall asleep.
Wake up, it’s snowing and lovely. I’m thinking nice brunch and museum. I suggest this and bf gets angry, saying I failed to wake him up to go when he had wanted. I say we both fell asleep but it’s so lovely in the snow and we can go now. I have made coffee and have a cup. He is angry I have not brought any for him and makes a comment about my selfishness. I try to remain calm, but find myself almost pleading about what a nice time we can have. He says I’m rushing him. Then he says why should we go when you don’t even like art. I say of course I do, and in fact an old friend from college is in the opening exhibition and prominently profiled in the catalogue. He says, sneeringly, “and when was the last time you saw her?” meaning I am name-dropping.
I begin crying from frustration. He seizes on this, saying we can hardly have a good time now that I’m so miserable. I leave, feeling both that I am setting a boundary, but more that I have been manipulated into having to do so. I go to the museum alone, but almost to prove a point, and am too upset to enjoy the art.
It’s just a few days before Christmas, and we don’t call each other. My computer breaks so I can’t even watch movies. I call him, and he comes over to look at the computer. We don’t talk about the museum incident, and this rug-sweeping has become normal.
Only years later do I realize he provoked a fight exactly to not spend the holiday with me and have me think it was my choice. In fact, I come to wonder if he hadn’t made plans to go to the museum that day with another woman, and desperately needed me to get lost.
@Ixnay, I can relate to that situation (times ten!) It seemed like no matter what cool ideas I came up with, or how hard I tried to be upbeat/fun/interesting/well-groomed/engaging, there was something wrong–whether it was with me or just the overall situation. Often times the things he was negative about or didn’t feel like doing made any sense, because later I know he would either go do these activities on his own or with friends, etc. It just hurts to know that he actually had all these interests as well, but he just had no desire to do any of them with me. How do you get to the point where you laugh and can look back without wincing?
Would love any encouragement you guys have that this stuff gets better. I feel really lonely sometimes and even though I know he is not the answer, knowing I don’t have anyone close in my city to talk to makes me really sad. Today has been especially hard as my grandparents have been sick and in the hospital and I am far from my family, and work has been a real pain (my boss is a man with no integrity who plays favorites), and I’ve noticed ever since I started stepping up boundaries and shedding toxic people that I spend a lot of time on my own. I try very hard to be a good person and treat others well, but it’s just one of those days where it doesn’t seem to pay off (did I mention I saw my EU’s other ex this afternoon, standing right next to me on the platform? She acted like she didn’t know me, but I know she knows me as I dated him next. She cheated on him and treated him badly and then it got me wondering if she is really the reason he struggles with relationships, or if she did it all because she was treated badly leading up to it…yes, no excuse, but it would explain a lot!) At any rate, sorry for this long post, I am just so frustrated and needed to get this out somewhere. I want to be a healthy person with healthy relationships, but some days are just crappy and there’s no getting around it!
((((Phoenix))))
I feel for you. It goes up and down for a awhile. And often. for us who get into and stay in these relationships, there are other issues the drama is obscuring, and so getting out of the situation doesn’t result in instant happiness.
You’ve got to give yourself as much energy as you did obsessing over and figuring him out. You’ve got to figure out what makes you feel good, and do that, every time. If a trip home to visit your grandparents would be good (and, from experience, visit while you can and they are lucid), make that happen. As for the work situation, I’ve noticed that the people at work seem impossible and cold when I am down on my life, and are easy to deal with when I feel strong. No that your boss isn’t perhaps a jerk, but that it will impact you less at times that you feel confident and balanced. And that comes from really basic things like eating well, nice fresh juice, exercise, yoga etc. It also comes from solid, positive friendships, and although you feel isolated, now is the time to reach out to old friends and friendly acquaintances, not with a saga of victimization, but to see a movie or show or just talk on the phone. Other people are going through stuff, too, and cliche or not, being there for others can give perspective and purpose. One nice volunteer activity is to walk animals at a shelter.
It is horrible to be in a relationship with someone who is compartmentalizing their life and excluding you. It’s not personal; this person has a problem. I would very much advise making a real, cognitive-behavioral type effort to shut down those easy avenues of rumination about why he did this. I would also caution against getting attached to the narrative of the cruel ex-girlfriend who hurt him. He may have lied about her to you. Over and over women discover that the story was the other way around. Your ex may well have treated her just the way he did you, you don’t know for sure, but people tend not to be available and then not in response to a certain partner; these things are deeper and come out with all partners until the person does real work on themselves. Natalie has some posts on this site about the desire to figure them out and about the “someone hurt him badly” fantasy. Spend some time browsing the list of posts area (tab above).
Now might be a good time, too, to use that health insurance for therapy. It’s a pain to find a good therapist; you may have to interview a bunch on the phone and have 2 or 3 initial consults before someone clicks. But you need a supportive place to talk it out, and real change can happen if you commit to the process.
It seriously sucks, but can only suck you down if you focus on how much it sucks. Speaking as someone considerably older than you (going on your grandparents being alive), there will come a time when you’re aghast at having spent your healthy, youthful energy in periods of self-punishment over the actions of immature, commitment-phobes. One trick is the act-as-if. Who would you be if you were over this, or it had never happened, what would she do? Who would you be if you were the you you know is inside? Try letting her out for 10 minutes, 20 minutes at a time.
In solidarity,
Ix
Ixnay,
Your post was addressed to Phoenix but I found it very inspiring so thank you for sharing.
I would also underline what you said about the allegedly cheating ex. Or anything at all that they say about the ex. Here’s an example of what my father said about my mother after the split; “I gave her the house and walked away”, failing to mention that it had only just been bought wiu 100% loan finance – there was no equity at all, he left her with a massive debt. Also failing to mention that he never paid a penny child support, in all the years, even though my brother and I were both under 12 and he was in a highly paid university professors job overseas and my mother was on a low income.
Neither believe nor disbelieve the stories about the ex, not until you’ve heard what she has to say, anyway.
@ixnay–Thanks for the insight, it is very much appreciated! I actually volunteer with animal rescue groups and it is always nice to help a cause (I even adopted a pet a month ago, she is lovely!) I think you’re also spot on about everything getting better once you adopt a better attitude, or simply changing your perspective. I am going to try and carry the “as-if” trick with me whenever I am feeling down or needing a good kick in the pants 🙂
P.S. Today I ran into the EU’s other ex (AGAIN) as we work in the same environment–not in the same office, but in close proximity. I gave a polite smile (which is customary for me, even to strangers) and she looked kind of shocked. I later turned around only to see her and her friend smirking at me, laughing. I tried to ignore it, acted like I was having a good day, etc, but when I got out of the cafeteria I felt like crying. What did I do to her? I have never spoken to her or about her, because I don’t believe in doing that and want to rise above any games or pettiness.
Also, I agree with both of you that you never know the full story unless you talk to both parties, but other people and friends have confirmed that it is true she cheated on him. So that part is fact. The other parts–did he “drive” her to it? Did this “damage” him?–are just ruminations and none of my business.
It is really none of your business. And that’s a good thing. When people marry and there are stepkids and an ex-wife in the picture, then the prior marriage and its dynamics seriously impact the current relationship, and it’s never nice. In fact, I’ve often thought about how if i got in a situation like that I hope I’d set a hard boundary and tell my partner he needs to talk about his ex in therapy because whatever happened and however it impacted his way of relating, is not my issue to fix.
In terms of seeing this ex-girlfriend, you can never never go wrong by being classy. Smiling at her was polite and classy. You have no idea whether her subsequent laughter had anything to do with you, could have been nerves or bravado. You just be calm and mature and pleasant and that is very empowering.
And just one caution about any impulse to approach her about getting together and comparing notes. She doesn’t have the answers, and “getting to the bottom” of their dynamic is not the answer to your life.
I feel strongly that the only time to seek a “reality check” from other partners should be when the welfare of children depends on it, or when there has been serious abuse and validating that the person has been abusive in the past might be the key to getting out. By abuse I mean more than an ac jerking you around. For example, on an infidelity forum I visit, one woman found her boyfriend to be secretive and cagey. Following intuition, she contacted the mother of his child, only to learn he had 2 more children he’d never mentioned and a drug-arrest history.
My ex husband’s post-divorce GF (they lived together 3 1/2 years) contacted me after he dumped her for another woman. I had been married to him for 19 years, I was his second wife. He told her the same BS stories about me that he had told ME about his first wife. He abused her (emotionally) the same way he abused me, and I’m sure the same way he probably abused wife #1. She felt validated after our conversation and has wound up being a HUGE advocate for me against my ex who is trying vigorously to deny our kids emotional and financial support. He is now married to wife #3, I’m sure he has told her that ex wife #1, #2, and ex GF are all ‘crazy’. New wife is a total moron, but that’s not my problem or concern, just sad that he’s probably abusing a woman who is not very smart and can’t defend herself.
“I would very much advise making a real, cognitive-behavioral type effort to shut down those easy avenues of rumination about why he did this. ”
Super wise words:)
AWESOME reply!
I am living your former relationship, Ixnay. I have chills, and a sinking feeling in my stomach. The man I have been seeing off and on for two years who was (unbeknownst to me) not going through a divorce like he claimed does this to me monthly. Last night was the most recent argument, and it went this way exactly. He says he wants to be with me, but I “need” too much and I “act like a martyr” when I point out I have waited two years, cancelled solo vacations to further our relationship, etc. He will give me no timeline on his divorce, or when I can meet his family, move in with him, etc. I am so sick of this.
Natasha, this is great! Well exemplified. The unhealthy scenario was so like my behavior. It is all a bit silly once reallly examined.
@Snowboard: “Avoiding this situation is, for me, the #1 reason to avoid kissing a guy until y’all have actually been on a couple official dates…” Hilarious! Come to think of it, that’s how I ended up, to steal a phrase from Nat, in my Epiphany Relationship. TRUE STORY!!
@ixnay: Sweet mother of mercy. That fool tops even my Hypothetical Museum-Avoiding Assh*le. It’s a miracle your broken computer didn’t result from you throwing it in his general direction. I hope he got a big old lump of coal under his Christmas tree hehe!
@Jennifer: Thanks girl! That’s one of the wonderful gifts of distancing ourselves from these losers, i.e. we step back and say, “Wait….WHAT?! And furthermore, was I….ON CRACK?!” 🙂
Hi Natasha! I couldn’t tell from your response if you meant that your Epiphany Relationship began with an inebriated kiss/hook-up or if it began after you had actually officially started dating the guy? What happened?
That’s how the “relationship” began haha! I met the fool in a bar when I was 24 and it took me until I was 29 to figure out it wasn’t going to go anywhere. To sum up the entire relationship: Dude was an assclown and it was, unsurprisingly, on again-off again. I caught him in some massive lies and, when he did a disappearing act during the holidays that year, I finally wised up! This is why I’m completely on board with not making out with anyone when plastered and deciding it’s an indication of compatibility 😉
Oh goodness, what a jerk! I’m so glad you’ve moved on from that guy!
From what I’ve seen, the kind of situation I was thinking of usually only lasts for a couple months or so, but if you’re talking about a situation of five years, then this guy was more than just too weak to end something he shouldn’t have started; he was definitely actively engaging the situation to keep it going. But it sounds like you’ve taken the experience and turned it into something good by learning from it – hang in there, Natasha! The way this guy treated you is *not* normal; you will find a decent guy in no time. Many hugs!!
Awwwww thank you so much for the good wishes!! Lots of hugs to you too 🙂 xoxo
Ah Natasha that was priceless. So funny and you know for some of these dudes, the Renoirs *are* really terrifying…imagine doing something wholesome like going to a museum; so relationshippy! Ick! The sad thing is, years ago in my first dysfunctional relationship, if I had been honest I would have said the second was much more fun. The Thrills! The Chills! The Gossip about the Drama! It was all so fun, like that special night when I discovered the stripper in our bed, so embarrassing! Yes, it was all so fascinating when I was not crying my eyes out, and those momentary highs felt like a drug. I can’t believe I used to be so crazy or addicted to someone lol.
With that said though I am stable now but I can’t seem to meet anyone interesting. I wish that I could at least have a bit of a heart-skip. Thanks for making me laugh:)
Dancingqueen, I know EXACTLY what you mean! I would never want that kind of “excitement” in a relationship again either, so I think maybe what we’re experiencing is the real, down to earth process of finding someone compatible – which is obvi *ahem* very different from what we’re used to. For what it’s worth, of all my married friends, not one and I mean NOT ONE met their husbands and was like, “OHHHHHMYGOD I LOVE HIM I LOVE HIM. I AM HAVING A LOVE/LUST MELTDOWN.” I find that very comforting haha! 🙂
Spot on there Nat ! x
Hi, Natalie –
While many therapist/relationship writers have argued that some degree of a power struggle is natural and unavoidable in a relationship – which I think is probably true – what you’re talking about, I think, is a perpetual power struggle.
I don’t agree that there is always a “driver” – at least sometimes, I think, it’s a roughly equal “partnership” of discord – but I think that’s a fairly minor point. You acknowledge that both partners play their role in this peculiar kind of tango.
I wrote something very similar, and I’m taking the liberty of including a link, which is intended for your eyes and not any kind of promotion. . My article has a somewhat different emphasis, but overlaps yours significantly, I believe. I’d be very curious to hear what you think.
The way I see it is not in terms of one evil party attempting to overpower the other for nefarious ends, but rather as a manifestation of different, competing desires/needs. Both parties, in other words, want something different, and while many tactics can be employed, the struggle basically stems from the desire to “win” by achieving one’s favored goals.
The result is the elimination of a loving alliance in favor of a “I win, you lose” mentality. To me, this is what a relationship power struggle is ultimately about.
Best!
Lawrence
Lawrence,
interesting addition to Natalie’s article. I agree there does not have to be a driver that sometimes it’s two people who, for whatever reason, see other people’s/partner’s strengths as their weakness. However, for the typical contributor of BR I don’t think that “equality” is most commonly case – we here have most likely been involved in a power struggle largely as described by Nat in the article – and as passengers.
I am interested in your and Nat’s articles as I currently have a very close person in my life involved in exactly this kind of relationship (and it’s pretty dreadful); I was amused by your example of one-up-man-ship. Lawrence, being that of who told the funniest jokes – if only it were that “harmless”! (I know it’s not really) – and how the problem involves the partners’ idea that the other is ‘better’ than them. I’m not sure at all that my couple (I shall call them) care a toss about who is better than the other at this activity or that activity really; they will insult each others’ achievements simply to make the other person feel like shit. The man of my couple wants control, wants things on his terms, by his own admission “just wants to do what I like” (drink in the pub mostly) and to get away with lots of very selfish, self-serving behaviour (which I won’t go in to – just trust me on it), and to get the upper hand to dictate the terms of the relationshit he has to make the woman in my couple feel like shit about herself (which she now quite thoroughly does); so it’s handy to tell her the dinner she made was terrible and she’s rubbish at housework (even though she has a full time job like him). There is definitely a driver – him. She has been a passenger (but wants to be the driver; she was in her previous marriage) but now after so long with this partner, she hardly tries to please him any more; she gives as good as she gets and it’s an incessant trading of insults – not jokes; it’s who can insult the other more deeply. Just today she was plotting a revenge! I was telling her that it would help if even one of you behaved like a mature adult in all of this. No, she does not see that she has any part in it – she is the hurt party; he is the rascal and she wants him to pay; to get a taste of his own medicine – that alone will be her satisfaction, she says. I have told her it’s now just a pointless battle. Yes, you can’t win if you’re on different teams. These two are on different tanks loaded with ammunition. It’s like the movie ‘War of the Roses’, I told her. But they are very unpleasant to be around – the insults and who can hurt who the most never stops.
He has wanted control so that he can behave like a bachelor, she has wanted control so she can stop him doing that and do what she wants him to do instead! But I fear it’s gone even way beyond that point for her now and for him too. Oh! if it were only about who told the best joke! At least there’d be something for the rest of us to laugh at.
Hi, Fearless –
I do believe that in most relationships there is a dominant partner – one who tends to drive the relationship. Still, in the end, it “takes two to tango,” I think.
Also, in my observation, when people break up they both tend to strongly blame the other party. “Passenger,” I suspect, can be a code word in some cases for “I was the good one, the one who didn’t cause the problems in our relationship.” I’m sure you’ve noticed that in most cases the big revelation after a breakup is how bad the other person was and how foolish we were to accept that. It’s fairly rare for either party to admit that they shared an equal or even small percentage of the fault. It’s vanishingly rare, I think, to be even semi-objective about a failed relationship.
“Relationshit”? Was that intentional? It made me laugh out loud. 😉
Regarding your friend and her partner, it sounds rather abusive on the man’s part, but regardless of who did worse things or who started it – questions which often seem to take center court but which usually become beside the point – it does seem to be the case now that your friend is giving roughly as good as she gets. She wants to be the “driver,” as you wrote, which places her firmly in competition with her controlling partner.
“War of the Roses.” Errgg. That movie made me queasy. To add to your analogy, it’s like being in two tanks, but every time you fire the round comes back and blows a hole in your side. Or maybe even more like being in a tight enclosure together, each armed with high explosives. 😉
How do you emerge from such a vicious cycle? Can you emerge from it? I think it’s barely possible, but would require some enormous shifts of perspective and belief to accomplish. Once you get it in your head that what’s good for you can only come at the expense of your partner, you have condemned yourselves to an endless battle over who gets those good things.
Lawrence
Yes, I’m with you on all of that. “She wants to be the “driver,” as you wrote, which places her firmly in competition with her controlling partner.” Yep. She too does nothing to rectify the situation for herself (as for rectifying it for both of them as a couple, I think that’s nigh on impossible, given each of their characters and conflicting needs and wants – she knows this herself). She does like to be the boss in her relationships and she has not got away with that with this guy and it infuriates her; he is very poor “relationship material” though; it wouldn’t matter what she did really, she’d still be unhappy with what he’s offering – any woman would be. I guess she has just resorted to the ‘battle’ rather than to leave; there’s so many “reasons” why that can’t happen of course. It’s all very sad really. I try to encourage her to see a counsellor, read BR – read anything! She does not see that she has very much to learn; just keeps saying that she knows what she should do – leave – but she can’t for x and y and z reason, so the battle for supremacy continues, and there’ll be no winners.
“Once you get it in your head that what’s good for you can only come at the expense of your partner, you have condemned yourselves to an endless battle over who gets those good things.”
So true. If I can say anything in her favour, from the very outset it was her man who took that view – from day one it was all at her expense and his convenience. Even my now ex EUM noticed it as soon as he met them about a dozen years ago (they’d been together about 3 years or so at that point, and still relatively happy) – EUM said that the man in my couple seemed to get all the benefits of a husband without any of the responsibilities; I thought ‘oh, how astute of you’ and imagined that since he’d noticed it and commented on the unfairness that he’d not be the type of man who’d do/want the same thing! And he was precisely that man! In retrospect I think he saw himself or his own aspirations playing out nicely for another man; whatever, he proceeded to take all the benefits of a relationship with me while never actually stepping into a relationship with me – and boy did I fight hard to gain control over that one!
Thanks for your response. And yes, ‘relationshit’ is deliberate; someone on BR coined it and I have adopted it as very apt indeed!
Lawrence,
I agree with Fearless – a very interesting article – a different perspective from Natalie’s post but they complement each other well.
Your description of one-up-man-ship just gave me a big clue as to why I may have been attracted to my exMM/AC. He could never just listen and discuss something I had mentioned about my day or my achievements or my frustrations – he always had a better story or a bigger burden and even included stories from his family members if he didn’t have one about himself that fit. He could never just empathize with me, or be happy for me, or even muster up interest in knowing more about whatever the topic was. It was all about him. I just realized that my father does exactly the same thing! My interactions with this ex emulated my interactions with my dad. No wonder it felt so familiar! Plus, they are both EU so of course I was banging my head against a wall trying to get either one to validate me. Thank you for helping me to put another piece of the “how-did-I-allow-myself-to get-involved-with-that-guy” puzzle into place! The power struggle/significant opponent dynamics felt normal. I am learning enough through this site and therapy that this is NOT a healthy dynamic. Learning to validate myself these days. Thanks!
Lawrence
I liked your article.
I also liked Secrets : What are they good for ? ( absolutely nothing )
I think a lot of us have suffered from the destructive secrets you talk about.
If you desire to be loved and yet you love your freedom there is a massive conflict within yourself and you can never satisfy yourself never mind anyone else.If one person wants freedom and the other wants commitment there is equal discord it just seems worse for the person who is on the receiving end of bad/shady behavior.
This is a really great one for me – and fantastic timing. I am finally out of 3 1/2 years of casual relationship which was a continual power play, and yes I did feel like I had to get back something off him before I would feel ok again. Its been about 4 months and we text occasionally but I havn’t seen him. And then last night late he texts about what good memories he has over our bedroom activities…I found part of myself wanting to buy back in but not into what we had but into a fantasy about how this time it would all go well and work out. Well this post was a wakeup call. Nothing will be different if he wants to start things off again by frisky texts. In fact it would just be more of the same. Thanks for this post. I really needed it. I am horrified when I wonder how on earth I would be coping without this website to help guide me and keep me on track as I try to finally get a healthy relationship.
Me and my narc ex. We had perpetual power struggles. Our whole ‘relationship’ was a power struggle. We kinda got off on it I think.
I experienced this both times I dated men that were much less educated than I. One was also struggling financially. It was as though both had to “win” all the time in order bring me to their level. I think it was low self esteem talking in both cases. Some of this was incredibly absurd. One would always stand on a higher surface than I and claim he was taller (he wasn’t ); the other would constantly diss me for being a slower runner than he (I have chronic anemia ) because I can run further. He also used to burn himself in the sun to prove he could be darker than my rather dusky self. Very sad.
This is spot on for me. Before honestly assessing and beginning to heal from my past, I thought the world related in power struggles. Nope. It’s how unavailable people relate. It’s how my father related to me. It’s all I knew. It is encouraging to realize there are healthy relationships out there without this dynamic, because it is a crippling, exhausting and soulless plight.
Thank you. I’ve just had an epiphany. It was also the relationship I had with my father. Never truly recognised that until now. Crazy stuff!
Thanks Natalie. Another excellent article. I was in a power struggle relationship that kept breaking up and getting back together. Finally he ended it and I was devastated. He came back a few months later to jerk me around some more. The difference was that I had been no contact for almost 3 months and had managed to recover some of my self esteem. I didn’t give in to his attempt to power over me so he told me that he didn’t want to be with me after all (in a text message!) in an attempt to get his power back. I took my power back and didn’t respond to this and have been no contact for 5 months now. My self esteem has not totally recovered though and my attempts at dating again have been dismal. I have taken our advice to date slowly, but nothing has come of it yet. So I’m in a NO dating phase while I work on myself. You’re articles have been my salvation. Cheers!
The way I see it, if you’re in a constant power struggle with him then its time to chuck the relationship. I think so many of us myself definitely included spend or spent waaay too much time analizing everything about the relationship. If its that much trouble why continue with it.
Yes – I think power struggles emerge when the relationship needs to end, but the two people aren’t ending it. I remember you referred to my “relationship” with AC#3 as a “power struggle,” and I wondered, Natalie, if you were thinking of me at the beginning of this post. 🙂
I am still trying to sort out in my mind what happened with my most recent “boyfriend” – AC#3 – how I could possibly break up and make up with someone nine times in the course of 2.5 months. One of the many realizations I have come to is that, as much as I found him incredibly rude and aggressive, I think I took a LOT of comfort in the fact that he WANTED to be with me, that he wasn’t going to leave me. (Of course, that may have changed, if I had actually “given into” the relationship <– and if that fear doesn't suggest a power struggle, I don't know what does!) I associate romance with being abandoned, and having my self esteem driven into the ground by continuing to pursue guys who reject me time after time after time, and I found so much comfort in the way AC#3 desperately wanted to be with me. And he definitely maintained the heavy blowing “hot” phase throughout – constantly telling me that he loved me, that I had changed him from a player into a guy who really wanted a relationship, etc.
Being “wanted” (not in a physical way, but just the idea of being “wanted” as someone's girlfriend) was a temptation that proved too great for me, at least as long as he was living next door, and actively hounding me.
Snowboard,
You said, “I associate romance with being abandoned, and having my self esteem driven into the ground by continuing to pursue guys who reject me time after time after time” Yes Snowboard, me too. Even if they didn’t leave me, I left them, I still felt abandoned when they cheated on me, when they blew cold, and a whole list of things. They were physically there still, but they had ‘abandoned’ me by withholding love, care and respect. If they hadn’t become my source of validation, I would of seen it as abuse instead of me not being good enough. It funny though, fast forward to dating with more awareness, the last guy I dated pointed out my keeping own my life, friends and interests, going slow and not blowing hot as signs I wasn’t interested enough and dumped me. Maybe I did guard myself a little too much, and the getting dumped hurt bad because I felt like I messed up again by not acting desperate enough. I have unraveled that over time that I didn’t give him the validation HE needed. We were both unhealthy. I went from desperate to living in a fortress.
Sunflower… I hear ya loud and clear. I could’ve wrote your post. Every time me and ex EUM would break up, which we did many times, I would go out and date. My approach and outlook about dating is very different from years ago, I would wonder and worry what these men thought of ME. Not the other way around. I always thought (which, I have no doubt, is from being in unhealthy relationships, first was my marriage, then a rebound w/ an EUM/AC for several years after.) that I wasn’t good enough. I had such low self-esteem, that it wouldn’t work out with them… I wouldn’t hear from them. Then… AC would pop back into my life for that ‘validation’, until 3 weeks later when he’d disappear again… vicious, vicious cycle.
What changed? this past year… I made some serious changes. Moved closer to people who care about me, got a different job. Spend more time getting to know what I want out of this life. I think… if it were to end tomorrow for me, do I want to be worrying about what some dipstick thinks of me, or if some dipstick vanished on me? No. Make that a hell-no. My family, my children, and myself are the most important. If a man is not treating me as an equal partner, with love and respect… what are they doing in my precious life? Either someone is contributing to my happiness, or they don’t need to be occupying my time.
I get the power struggle. Just ended a 7 year power struggle.. the last few posts from Natalie… summed up my relationshit. He left me again, after professing nothing but love and devotion and all that happy stuff… just a few weeks ago. One false move.. he disappeared again. And I swore months ago, I would never go back. Soon after, I was left with guilt/blame. All he kept saying “yea.. you were wrong I was right, you screwed up, I tried, I didn’t fail”. My response was, yea… I was wrong, sorry. But… you’re still over there, and I’m over here. What does being right or wrong really matter at this point?
So, like Lawrence mentioned, it being about unmet needs/desires. You may want to be with someone… but when you can’t meet eachother’s needs/desires… a whole lotta fightin’ goin’ on… I could meet his needs, but he couldn’t meet mine. Would temporarily after getting back together… then, slowly but surely, he’d slack… I’d get mad (one false move), he’d end it. When NML talks about perspective… so important when you’re feeling guilty… and blaming yourself. I’m letting it go. I have to. I let him go. Regardless if he’d come back or not. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t work. It’s either a match or it’s not.
Back to dating… since gaining perspective and self-esteem, I no longer wonder at all if these men will ask for another date. I’m pretty confident they will. If they don’t. So what. This man I’ve been talking to for two months… nicknamed me ‘no drama’, I’m telling you… it’s all about the company you keep. My ex would disagree with him… they are two completely different men, different values. Look at dating just like you’re out there meeting people.. that is it. Get to know people… they’re not all AC’s. I’ve noticed the men I’ve dated.. man, what a difference from being w/ an AC. There is hope… I am happily moving on. And if you only worry about you.. and people you love closest to you… opportunities and men will show up out of nowhere. Believe it. And you won’t give a rat’s… if they don’t call.. But they will… cause you’ll be strong and confident. Literally blocked my ex AC from my life, I intend to keep it that way, no less than 3 months. That is a gift to myself. No way am I playing into the ‘pattern’ ever again, when/if he decides to pop in and try to bring me down again, he won’t get through. ACproof, people… 🙂
Demke.
“If a man is not treating me as an equal partner, with love and respect… what are they doing in my precious life? Either someone is contributing to my happiness, or they don’t need to be occupying my time.” So true.
” it’s all about the company you keep.” and “Look at dating just like you’re out there meeting people.. that is it. Get to know people… they’re not all AC’s.” I am working towards living with that mind set. Just shifting to being more positive when I meet people has made a difference. Approaching people with distrust (guilty!) is a bad way to start any kind of relationship or friendship and a sign your not really ready. For now, I’m not dating and am liking the emotional quiet in my life. If I do date I want it to happen in a more natural, easy approach.
Hi Sunflower,
Have you seen this post?:
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/from-chasing-a-relationship-with-unlikely-sources-to-dating-decent-people-and-giving-them-a-hard-time/
I suspect many FBGs struggle with the problem you describe here – over-correcting after a lifetime of being burned by EUMs/ACs.
For some reason, I haven’t really talked on BR about this aspect of my relationship with my good boyfriend from last year, but it was a major part of our dynamic. At first, he loved that I wasn’t “needy” like all of his past girlfriends; he said all the time that I had the “mildest” personality of any girl he had ever met, because I didn’t get jealous, didn’t get angry, didn’t get needy. But with time, I noticed his comments changed to, “I’m not even sure you really like me that much.” The day he broke up with me, while I was in the middle of an OCD meltdown, I remember I said, “I love you,” and he said, “Why?” in this very bitter tone, as in he didn’t believe I really loved him; he thought I just needed him to get me through my anxiety attacks.
The truth was, like you, I had built up a fortress. I was terrified of becoming too dependent on him and destroying my self esteem the way I had destroyed it for the men before him, so I didn’t really make myself vulnerable to him in any meaningful way.
I am still completely sure I haven’t learned how to hit the right balance; after nine years in the Great Wide Open, I feel too good here inside the safety of the fortress…
Snowboard,
After realizing I put myself behind this emotional fortress, I’m slowly learning to come out of my shell in a more healthy way by doing things like smiling at a man I think is interesting instead of acting my signature aloof around him, saying hello to more people I don’t know, asking friends to go so stuff with me instead of waiting for them to ask me (yes, I’ve been turned down some) and trying to just be myself. I figure that I have to become more open everywhere in my life. I’m not dating since the break up over 6 months ago, and it’s been a bit of relief to not focus on men, being nervous about how to act, what to say, blah blah blah, because my mindset is ‘don’t look for a relationship right now, just relax for a bit’. It’s taken the pressure off any situation I encounter, like smiling at a man I am intrigued with. It’s just a smile and me being friendly, I ‘m not angling for a date. It’s also good practice for me to show how I feel, even if it’s something as simple as a smile. Being aloof was always seemed safer, and yes….I made men chase me (me seeking validation) because it seemed less likely I’d get rejected if he showed interest first. I know better now, it doesn’t always mean they like you….you just present a challenge. There is a guy at my yoga class who seemed aloof and quiet. He intimidated me a little. One day I got up the courage and just said ‘Good morning” with a smile. He smiled big right back and said Good morning in return. I thought, wow that was easy and it felt good. Not because I want to date him, but it took courage for me to overcome that intimidation by being more open and friendly. I’ve been somewhat of an introvert whole life. I’m okay with that and retraining myself to have a type A personality isn’t my goal, but just letting go of the reins a little and opening up a little more is. I can try to avoid rejection by having steel armor (doesn’t work) , but I’m also avoiding life.
Very interesting response, Sunflower. Thank you. 🙂
You’re right; avoiding rejection is avoiding life.
And the truth is, rejection doesn’t really have to be that awful, once you have strong boundaries in place.
When I found out the most recent guy I was talking to had started seeing another girl, I felt very hurt for about two weeks, lost my appetite, was sleeping all the time, etc. But I put my boundaries in place, went NC, and have turned down three different invitations to parties/events I can guess he would likely attend. Now, less than two months later, I’m feeling strong again and basically over it.
Compare this to how I responded after AC#2 rejected me after about 2 weeks –> I turned a guy I was only moderately interested in to begin with into my own personal Fantasy Man, spent two years immersing myself in his group of friends, trying to “win” him back, destroying my self esteem in the process!
It seems, then, “rejection” is a misplaced fear; what I should really fear is refusing to ACCEPT rejection when it happens.
snowboard
“I think power struggles emerge when the relationship needs to end, but the two people aren’t ending it.”
I think there’s a whole lot of truth in that. And there’s nothing more soul destroying than struggling to get love from someone who doesn’t have it for you.
“And there’s nothing more soul destroying than struggling to get love from someone who doesn’t have it for you.”
The stories I could tell about trying to get water from an empty well… At a certain point, I knew there was no water in the well, and yet it’s like the habit was so strong that I didn’t know what else to do with myself, and just resigned myself to a life of misery, and was just going to keep on trying, knowing fully well nothing would change.
So true, snowboard. I
Sorry writing from my tablet with difficulty, obviously. Snowboard, I agree with you comment that trying to extract love from an unwilling source is soul-destroying. I ran into my ex last night at the karaoke bar I frequent; don’t know wtf he was doing there as he is never there on a Thurs night & he knows I go! Argh!
I did nothing; he came up to me & we had the briefest of conversations, but so mad at myself because once again I gave him the power by inviting him to stay to hear me sing. Of course, he made an excuse about having to get up early for work, bought his case of beer and left.
Feeling sick that He/I broke NC. He is so obviously doing better than I with letting go of the whole shitty mess of our non-relationship. Did I handle this poorly & give away my power, again?
I am struggling with the notion that I showed him I’m still into him!
This post really struck a nerve with me because he & I have battled it out for the advantage since we first met, it seems.
blueberry-
oh, please take yourself off the hook. what was the chance that you were trying to act all brave and strong, “see, i can even ask you to stay and hear me sing, see, i’m fine!”?
let’s acknowledge that: he could have bought his case elsewhere yet he went someplace he knows you frequent; he didn’t have to come up to you at all, he could have waved and left. so, its not (just) you.
you didn’t handle it wrong. bumping into an ex is AWful. but raking yourself over the coals about it is definitely unhelpful to you now. it just doesn’t matter. the relationship, sadly, or maybe happily, is in the past. there is no power he actually has over you, you didn’t give him power when you saw him, but you’re capitulating your power in your head, NOW.
try to stop. mostly try to stop focusing on POWER. just try to be. all this power struggle is just bullshit and it keeps you from having a loving relationship with YOU.
sorry you had to bump into him, though, truly.
@ cc, you definately called it. I AM surrendering my power in my mind because the truth is I’m not fine and he has now interrupted my grieving process. Sadly, I feel back to square one, crying, not eating or sleeping well when I had started to reach some level of peace & acceptance.
He even rubbed my shoulder with a bullshit “take care, ” when he left. I hate that expression; it is so dismissive and cold. I get it; it’s over, as it damn well should be.
But thank you for letting me off the hook. I wish I knew why I feel so powerless after 6 weeks NC.
Blueberry: my two cents, maybe he rubbed your shoulder to be condescending to make you feel like crap. I am not saying that he is an evil person, but I know guys, with fragile egos, that would do something like that. People can be petty.
You are choosing to give him power. I know that it does not feel that way, but you are. Look at it this way; if he is so condescending, that means he is not very down to earth and he has his own issues. Feel sorry for him for that, really. I would never pat an ex that I left things badly with on the back, it is a form of power trip or just super lack of cluefullness. Either way, if I did that, I would be the one with the problem, more than my ex for being upset about it.
Take back your power, you can do it, whipe your tears, write down a long list of all your positive qualities, from the eyes of someone who knows you and loves you. Now, write down all his negative qualities and realize that this negative person is no longer around, to be exposed to your fabulousness. Now take his list, burn it, or scatter it to the winds, take yourself out and buy yourself a nice candle, or nice smelling insense and purge your place of his presence with that. A smudge stick helps too. You can do it!!!!!!!:)
blueberry-
its because 1) you saw him and 2) 6 weeks NC is still a REALLY vulnerable time.
here you are, just trying to roll along, feeling increasingly confident in your decisions, gaining strength in your healing, getting out of the house, going to karaoke, not thinking about him *all* the time any more and then BAM! there he is, right there, having the temerity to show up at that place, come over to you, speak to you, touch you somewhat condescendingly, seem fine, and dammit, continue to breathe at all. what’s with all the conspicuous breathing?? why can’t he just go buy his case elsewhere and then fall off a cliff, anyway?!? what the fffff…..???
of course you’re having a hard time, honey. you’ve had a setback!
take it easy, blueberry. you’re not powerless. breaking up SUCKS, getting over a breakup SUCKS, and it sounds like you’re right on track. you’re having what feels to you like a relapse because that’s just how it is – you’re not doing it wrong. you’re not actually back at square one, you’ll bounce back from the setback of seeing him and sail ahead again.
but it takes time. more time than we like. just trust in your process, you’ll be ok. in the meantime, don’t pile self-criticism on top of grief.
big hugs
@ dancing queen and cc, thanks for the support and encouraging ideas. DQ, I plan to do my positives list. I wrote down his negatives weeks ago while they were fresh & raw after he pulled his last outrageous stunt. I vowed then to make sure he didn’t get close enough to hurt me again but alas…crap! He’s racking up quite an extensive list of negatives so that’s gonna be a helluva bonfire!
Cc, your gentle, comforting words are balm to my drooping spirit right now. I am trying to get unstuck on hurt & disappointment. My energies would be so much better spent looking for a new job, volunteering, etc, but I can’t seem to get the gumption. It’s all I can do to just get through the day.
Blueberry,
My no contact time is just 4 weeks and I can really relate to your situation. I think that you shouldnt feel guilty that you arent motivated to do much, getting through the day is an achievement in itself sometimes. Sometimes there are good days, where you feel that you are really making progress and then wham, youre back down. And this time you have good reason to be down. I saw my ex 3 weeks into my ‘last’ no contact and it set me back a lot, but you just have to keep going. Maybe, if we had the courage we should let them know how pissed off we are when they pop back suddenly or send a text,instead of acting like we dont care. In my case, in the past, I have perversly been wanting contact to happen, hoping that maybe they will see you and realise their error…but…it never seems to happen to anyone who writes on here…all these women cant be wrong. Its so painful without them, but even more painful being rejected again. Just hope I can do as well as you and get to 6 weeks and beyond. We have to believe what we are being told, that the pain will only lessen with continued no contact, but its still a bumpy ride.
Hey, oneleggood. You get it completely. I can’t help feeling that he did this intentionally which I know sounds arrogant. But he def knows I go to this bar every Thursday night, @ such-n-such a time, and he was already there when I arrived with my gf. I agree; I wish I could tell him to stay the ef out of “my bar.” I know where he hangs out and I’m not haunting his ass!
Yes, I think the same bunk…my shameful confession…that he will be so affected by seeing me again that he’ll decide I’m The One, morph into this great guy, quit his hard drinking bachelor lifestyle (at 38) and… blueberry, wake up! Our challenge is to stop wanting these completely unhealthy, unworthy men. Thanks so much. It really helps to know someone else is working toward letting flogged horses die.
Great article and amazingly well said.
Nice Natalie…so very much what I have experienced to a tee. As a Miss Independent-Self-Sufficient, I usually sign up thinking I’m the driver and before I knew it, I was quickly relegated to the passenger in the power struggle. Of course, I WAS attracted to the power struggle in the first place in order to right the wrongs of my childhood. It’s been just like you describe, “my turn”, no “my turn”. Just like kids on the playground. You betcha my version of whatever was better.
Although I could go on with regards to the obvious power struggle with exMM, I want to share an email I received this evening from a best friend. She forwarded me a blog post from the emotionally abusive ex. I was involved with the emotionally abusive ex a decade ago (still work at the same place). At that time, I vehemently objected to his continued involvement with his ex-wife, even though they were divorced for a decade. Talk about a power struggle. But here’s the point, in his blog post he described how wonderful it was to have his ex-wife with him on vaca because “they will always be married”. Dear god. Then he proceeded to describe how miserable he was cos it was humid and he was just a “pile of melted goo”, his heart hurt, his BP sky rocketed, and couldn’t keep up with his 70 year-old parents. That’s cos he’s 50 lbs overweight, out of shape, and a vegan to boot. But the ex-wife was there to “breathe life into the pile of goo”, his words. I was just stunned reading the email in juxtaposition with this post. If I had “won” the power struggle, way back when, I could have been on vaca with a melting pile of abusive goo? Breathing life into him? Sucking the life out of me? Wow, I’m so grateful I lost that power struggle. I don’t know how to end this other than if you are in a power struggle, you may not want to “win” it. I’m really grateful I lost that one. Yikes. Opps. There must be a god or a Natalie.
*giggling* thanks for this, runnergirl.
I just thought of my ex and the horrific power struggle that was.
I used a spoon of peanut butter every morning to give my dog medication, and would leave the spoon in the sink until I did dishes later. I cannot TELL you the drama that ensued.
“NO PEANUT BUTTER SPOONS IN THE SINK!” he would scream. He would throw away the spoons (?as if I cared?) and rant and rave about it.
Another great example was, I hired a maid service because he was a slob and I was busy and I knew the futility of expecting or asking him to clean up after himself. When they showed up, he sent them home. He simply didn’t want the place to be cleaned up, period, regardless of who did it.
So now he lives in a 10,000 sq. foot building that he has turned into an underground music venue with one of his gf’s (another power struggle story), and literally nearly ever surface is covered with thrift store or street/dumpster-scored junk. They have entire rooms piled literally to the ceiling with junk…fabric, books, old games and toys, chairs, pianos (8 broken pianos last I checked), lamps, stuffed animals, you name it. The whole place is filthy and reeks and his long-suffering gf posts regularly on FB and writes songs on YouTube about how miserable she is.
It’s so funny how our egos get so caught up in the fight that we don’t notice we’re fighting for a big fat pile of poo.
Hooray for opting out!
holy crap!
No peanut butter spoons in the sink is right up there with No wire hangars!
“No peanut butter spoons” reminds me of a former housemate. She used to scream and rant about how I did the dishes wrong. She felt that I should rinse the dishes before I washed them. My way was to put dishes, water, and soap in the sink, then clean the counters and table — by then, any dried-on food had soaked off and I could wash the dishes. This drove her insane — insults, screaming. I couldn’t understand it. I washed the dishes in a reasonable time frame and they came out clean. So what difference could it possible make HOW I washed them? It didn’t. People with control issues can make the smallest thing into a huge drama.
I was so, so tempted to lay all the dishes out on the sidewalk and spray-wash them with a hose, just to see her reaction.
It’s like when people get all mad about a newspaper not being folded “properly”. That’s what this coworker of mine (whom I’ve called Eve) does. She gets all vitriolic at everyone on the team who doesn’t treat the team’s newspapers “properly”. It would almost be funny if she didn’t remind me so much of my narcissistic mother when her eyes go ice-cold. It’s a huge trigger for me, unfortunately.
eve? that bitch!
Elly, my mother was also very volatile, and my housemate’s screaming and criticism triggered the same panic and shame I’d felt as a child listening to my mother. This housemate just had a terrible temper. I was not the only person she would ridicule and insult. I heard her do it with other housemates, friends, boyfriends, hairdressers….practically everyone she knew.
Yet, I still felt that the way she treated me was somehow my fault — that I was as difficult, weird, sloppy and hard to get along with as she said. I was just that used to feeling that way with my mother. That bit about washing dishes, though — that was SO ridiculous, that it finally made me think, “WHAT is this girl’s problem?”
Tanya Z
I have had similar dish-washing power struggles with my dad as a child. After I washed them, he would inspect them closely, and if there was so much as a molecule of dirt left on the plate or glass in question, he would insult me and throw it back into the sink. Talk about control. I wish I had fantasized about your sidewalk spray-wash method back then. Might have helped to lighten things a little! Thank goodness for appliances that do the washing up these days 🙂
ixnay-
omg – you’re exactly right.
i didn’t realize until i read runnergirl’s story and your analysis of sunshine’s spoon story (congrats on losing the crazy, musical, hoarder, btw, sunshine) that i realized i have the following, highly representative, story from my brief marriage:
we moved into a house that we had saved for and that he really wanted – i couldn’t have given a crap about buying a house, but he wanted it and so i (yes, I) conducted the price negotiations in a way that would get us a better price without actually losing the house – did he acknowledge this? no.
THEN, when we moved in, i (being of a somewhat lazy nature – his term) unpacked the entire (huge) kitchen by myself, carefully choosing a place for everything and put everything in its place. then i gave him a grand tour of the kitchen, showing him where everything was and making it perfectly clear (let’s call this “section A”) that the way i organized it was not the only way, and that i’d be happy to move it all around to his satisfaction or we could do it together.
did he thank me? no. did he make suggestions for a better storage layout? no. did he ever nicely say, “hey, can we put this thing over here instead?” no. did he instead spend the next 3 years complaining bitterly about the kitchen layout, taking every opportunity to bitch, in the most condescending way, about where things were stored and that he could never find anything (in his own kitchen) as if the “human” who arranged it were an utter moron? oh, fuck yeah. did we have fights over it, with me constantly reminding him of section A? yep!
because it wasn’t about being happy or co-piloting or making decisions TOGHETHER – it was about him passive aggressively maintaining the shittiest, pettiest type of power.
after failing through 3 marriage therapists, in which he could neither be honest about his feelings or ever acknowledge that i had the right to feel anything, he was shocked when i left.
and can you believe that i felt guilty? oy.
You will definately have the last laugh when they BOTH appear on reality TV as MUSICAL HOARDERS!!Goodbye pile of poo!
I wish…truth is, his venue is ridiculously popular, it gets good reviews and a lot of people seem to think it’s “quirky” and “refreshing”. Nobody cares really about his seamy underside because he’s managed to make it public and make it work for him. If he ended up on Hoarders he’d find some way to make money off of it and become even more popular.
Guys like him ALWAYS manage to exploit others’ weaknesses and blind spots, and manipulate things in their favor.
I had miscarriages with him and am SO grateful we did not have children together. One of his gf’s had his baby and last I heard, he bought her a house and a brand new car (his name!) and every time he doesn’t like the choices she makes he threatens to take custody or the house or the car. Her baby’s birth was traumatic and godawfully painful and he was of course, there but useless and bored but happy to claim his prize! Blech.
I drive by the place on the way to a friend’s house once a week, it’s unmissable, 10,000 sq. ft and covered in graffiti and feel, mostly neutral. Oh, that place, yeah. I kind of used to know those people.
So yeah, if you find yourself caught in a power struggle, take a step back, get some perspective, look at what you are actually fighting for!
sunshine-
this is going to sound reeeeeeally judgmental and snotty, buuuuut … in an effort to add to the perspective…..he sounds like ….
he sounds like a *pimp*. all dominating, unsafe sexing, no respect having, uncaring, loveless, a power-sucking monster. nobody with any class or taste respects him.
glad you’re rid of him. and glad that you don’t have to share a child with him.
Hey Sunshine and ladies,
Your ex and his thing about peanut butter spoons made me howl. No peanut butter spoons in the sink is now my code for power struggles. When you find yourself arguing about spoons, wire hangers, dishes, kitchen arrangements, folding newspapers as well as ex’s, it’s not about the spoons or the ex. Sounds like we both dodged a bullet!
Now when I pass by my daughter’s rooms which resemble your ex’s house sans 8 pianos, I laugh and think NO PEANUT BUTTER SPOONS IN THE SINK. I gave up on the power struggle with her and room when she was 10. Recently, she did learn not to put a half finished bowl of ice cream in the trash in her bathroom. I chuckled to myself when she brought it down stairs. Who knew ice cream turns into super glue!
I’ve fallen in the casual category in my last relationship. I knew the guy wasn’t in love with me but felt I might become the boyfriend through the back door.
I gave him as much sex as he desired in hopes that he would have power over me and thus want me more. As you can image, it didn’t work.
cowboy – thanks for the ever-useful reminder that same-sex relationships can be riddled with the same power struggles as het couples. a friend of mine dates women she feels are more popular and savvy than she is, and the women she dates feel the same (i.e. that they are more hip than her), and then you get this lopsided thing where one person feels they’re doing the other person a favor. another guy friend of mine dated these awful closeted cops who secretly hated themselves and for whom my friend would do everything he could to stay “understanding” and “looking buff” (when I was like, he shouldn’t’ be making you feel bad about your looks, my friend said – “that’s gay culture” – total bs!).
Thank you Natalie for your post, I have mix feelings to be honest. Maybe I just didn’t understand as English is not my native language.This post reminded me of my customer, who I talked to few months back. She was saying she is very happily married woman with loving husband (25 years) and three grown up kids. I asked her what is the secret of her successful marriage. She said: “I pretend giving power to my husband, but in reality I am “wearing trousers”, I never argue with him and always agree with him, but do my own way” Strange really, she is happy to be in the passenger’s seat and give all power to her man. I don’t know, maybe because of her culture? IT made me think, maybe I am doing something wrong, that my relationships are not working out?!
Nat,
What can I say? You just described my last relationship. When I realized that my ex was playing games and trying to manipulate me, and that I was doing a ‘one false move,’ I finally came to my senses and opted out. I am now working on building my self-esteem so that I do not continue to repeat the same mistakes over and over and over again. Thank you for you words of inspiration and encouragement!!
Wow! This struck a real chord:
“trying to right the wrongs of your past and trying to get their abusive ways under your control and be the exception to the rule. They’re trying to keep you under their control by diminishing your personal power so that you’re too fatigued and wounded to see them for who they are and move on.”
It perfectly encapsulates what was wrong about my marriage. It took me forever and a day after separating from him and finally divorcing him to truly understand the level of abuse that I subjected myself to by remaining with him and why I allowed it to go on for so long. I have never seen it put so succinctly until now though.
Growing up with two self-centred, emotionally and physically abusive parents really sets you up for unhealthy relationships until you start to understand the dynamics of it all and to start the healing process.
Thank you for the validation this article has provided me. Truly a blessing.
The joke in my family is my parents stay together to spite each other. It is sickening really. My 19 year old son once cried (literally) at the thought of being around them and hearing the way they speak to one another. When I told my mother, she cried. Later, my Mom said she’d asked my niece if it hurt her the way they spoke to one another. My niece said, “No. I think its funny.” Well, there you have it! Case closed, totally discounting my son. Rolling my eyes. Crazy making.
I think I coined it …about a year ago ….but it was unintentional…a typo….but it works ‘ relationshit ‘ doing better now than my last post (god this was taking years to stop the EUMs …but it was all about me really 🙁 ….thro a link here …got getting past your breakup book …by Susan Francis …hurts in the working thro …but helps ….been NC nearly 2 weeks also which is difficult too . I feel often so foolish when I think of the things I said to him just so I couldi contain his ” dark side ” which he brought up on da te two !!!….” I warn you I have a dark side ..but you wills never see it …you are too special ….I will never hurt you ” …..duh duh and duh….I should have run at dark side ….not stayed cos I was so special…err …not so special to disappear on Mr Worm.
Dear Fitnessfreak,
I had to LOL at his comment…”I have a Dark side but you will never see it….you are too special. OMG you must have been dating VOLDEMORT from Harry Potter! He is definately an extraterrestial, what healthy human even says that!! Well….YOU did see it and you are SPECIAL! I am so glad you are NC. Living with his DARK side would make you live constantly in the SHADOW of this and never see the sunshine of being in a better relationship.
LOL, Voldemort makes an unexpected appearance. Thanks for the laugh, T=F!
“The dark side…” Oh yeah, that’s how they cover their asses! No matter what they do later on, they can always claim: “I told you before”. Such BS!!!
Btw, Joanne K Rowling seems to understand childhood trauma and its effects pretty well. The episode about the “Mirror of Erised” in “Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone” is a good example.
In this magic mirror, Harry can see himself together with his parents even if they died while he was still a baby (he grew up with very abusive foster parents). For a while, Harry gets so obsessed with the mirror that he stops paying any attention to his friends or his lessons. He manages to let go of this fantasy only with the help of Professor Dumbledore, the headmaster.
I think this episode perfectly describes how we miss out on life while clinging to fantasies.
That´s really pretentious, isn´t it, talking about A Dark Side… you could just dump him for being ridiculous!
I wonder if talking like that ever helped him score with some Criss Angel fan.
The Dark Side? Really? Isn’t that from Star Wars? lol… I think it is!
I agree that the power struggle begins when one is trying to get love and attention out of the other. It doesn’t begin that way though. I was married for 7 years, the dating and first 3 years of marriage went smoothly then my husband became more interested in his career and our marriage came second or third. I had a career too, the same one to be exact, but the marriage was number one for me. It all slowly went down hill. What I want to know is, does it always have to end in a breakup. My ex acted like I had mortally wounded him when I left, when I was there he could care less. But after 4 years of chasing his attention, I just couldn’t do it anymore. I wish I had seemed counseling before the end but unfortunately I choose other less helpful ways of coping.
These dynamics are so darn addictive. Two years since a complete knobjockey performed a final disappearing act following me laying my heart out in the name of ‘brushing games aside’ and I still haven’t quite gotten over it. This post actually forced me to realise, it’s not a broken heart, I just haven’t let go of the idea of getting the power back. So, I guess I’m just as power orientated as the idiot. Bollocks. I thought I’d at least walked away with the moral high ground ;-> Next time, I’ll stick to Monopoly.
Hi, I just want to respond to a post finally. I have been reading all of your books Nat and read your posts rather frequently. I just want to say first and foremost all the material you have saved my life. I am a gay male. I can safely say that sexuality really does not change the nature of relationships, good or bad, and boy, have I been involved with some ACs.
Regarding your post, I think your phrase how those of us clueless to an “obvious power struggle” hits the nail on the head for me. I am well read on feminist literature and Foucault’s theories on power, and you would think, then, that I would be educated enough to actually be able to see a power struggle when I was involved in it. I was too caught up in what we had going for us, or the high of first getting to know each other, that I was almost blind-sided by the power dynamic when it became evident. I remember my first argument with this guy very starkly because it was the beginning of my depression. He was actually physically abusive, and I am lucky to say that I am still alive today. He literally threw me out of his room like a rag doll, and before you know it, I was stuck inside of the cage of our power-laden “relationshit” (I like that word). It went from the seemingly most beautiful, erotic thing in the world that I had ever experienced into a literal cage-fight nightmare.
Power is at the core of the bull shit these guys get away with, however. When I finally cut contact with him, he stalked me over facebook. If they can’t have you in the relationshit cage-match, they won’t let their play toy go free that easily.
ACaddict-
oh, you poor thing. nah, unless we happen to be hyper-aware at the time, most of the time we rarely see what’s happening to us with any perspective while its happening. and i think you were too busy just surviving at the time to think lofty “gee, this is a classic power struggle!” thoughts.
take good care of yourself. that’s awful, just keep healing.
xox
I wish I had had the perspective to hit the flush handle immediately when this happened. At least I can stop being in denial and stop blaming myself for his behavior. It’s literally taken me years to convince myself otherwise.
I love having the clarity to see everything in the past for what it was finally.
ACaddict,
Good that you know it now, right? Your ex is off somewhere else, not knowing it probably. Thank your lucky stars that you are you and not him:)
My B/F of 5 years has a 16 year old Daughter who does not like me and will not speak to me. She passes his door and will not call in to see him! The only time she will see him is when she wants something! We do not live together. My family and I are going away for the wkend and we invited him to come see us on Sunday he said it is too far. The next day he said his daughter has phoned and asked him to take her to see people her and her mother met on holiday, he told her he can do it on Sunday !! It is a lot farther away than where we are. If he doesn;t take her he said it will cause more trouble. I do not agree but told him he should do what he wants to do. He said he does not want to!! I do not understand why he would drive 200 miles to see people he has never met???
I know it sucks that his daughter doesn’t like you, but in my opinion you have no right to be mad if he chooses his children over you. Sorry, but they should always be a parent’s priority. Even if she is 16, moody and horrible, if he wants to spend time with her or try and salvage his relationship with her, you should encourage this and be understanding.
Im not sure she’s disputing that he should spend time with his daughter, soundsmore to me that fairy invited him “first” and he said no because it was too far, but then afterwards deciding that somewhere else a similar distance isnt too far… keep your spidey senses about you fairy, if this sort of thing keeps happening (i.e. making you feel unimportant) then ditch him?
Firstly, a thousand thank you’s to you Nat for all your help and guidance; I recommend your site to anyone who is having relationship problems or just broken up. It saved my life, literally. I have come out the other side and finally have some self esteem (for the first time I realised in 35 years). It has been nearly 2 years since I broke up with the power hungry, controlling, eastern european narcissist and I am finally HAPPY. I cannot count the number of times he picked a fight so he wouldn’t have to go to events; or made excuses not to go on holidays. We broke up 4 times in 4.5 years and like a deluded crack head I went back time and again. Even at the end after I broke up with HIM, his power plays and constant manipulation had me begging him to take me back 8 months after we had broken up. I was addicted to the sex, and loved his family, though now realise that he NEVER put me first and it was a one way ticket to HELL. It drove me to the edge and I considered taking my own life. Through medication and the support of friends, family and my doctor, moving states and starting a new life I have only recently started loving myself and who I am! It has been a very, very tough road and I am so glad to have reached this emotional space… I never thought it would happen. The predictable thing is, is that he is still stalking me on the internet and prank calling me… after nearly TWO years!!! I cracked one night and broke NC by emailing him to stay the F away from me; hopefully I will never hear from him again. To all of you lovely ladies who are struggling with ex AC’s and narcs; please realise that no matter how long and hard the road is, you WILL get there! For the first time in my life I am happy being alone, and am working towards my dreams and passions. I no longer feel the need to be in a relationship, I know that I will be just fine on my own. If I do meet someone now they would have to be pretty special for me to start a relationship, and if they aren’t that special… well… NEXT!
I never thought of it in these terms, but that’s exactly what it was. A power struggle. I was constantly hurt and attempting to punish him…by not calling when I said I would, to make up for him not calling when he said he would, or trying to get his attention by ignoring him because he ignored me. I felt childish and needy, and like I was playing a game where I was forever losing. Even when I broke up with him, I made sure I did the dumping because I could not stand to be dumped. The final rejection would have done me in. So when I couldn’t take his verbal and emotional abuse anymore, his indifference, and his cruelty, I delivered the final blow. I didn’t win, though. I just ended up hurting for the last year. He’s got himself a new gf and probably hasn’t learned a thing. So, it was a sick game, and an absolute waste of time, and a situation that I emerged from feeling like I’d hit bottom. Not only did I deserve better, but I am better than that.
Powers and love will never be together, It is true that this factor has destroyed many relationship. I think this book by Dr. Rhoberta Shaler will help the reader to identify passive aggressive behaviour in relationships and offers strategies on coping with those behaviours which you can find in PDF format at and in Kindle/Nook format at
Sunflower
I felt that too, even though most of the unhealthy dating situations I was in ended with me breaking it off, I still felt abandoned by them first in some form or the other. I almost felt like I was giving them what they wanted when I ended things and I was the one coming out on the bottom. It took me a little while to process that the reason why they acted like they wanted me back when I did pull away was only for their validation, ego stroke, etc… and nothing more meaningful then that, at first it perplexed me and I was trying to rationalize the irrational.
Thank you Natalie for being the booming voice of reason I needed over this past year! Everytime I checked your site I had to look around and wonder if you were somehow watching me.
Funny I thought…I used to be the voice for all of my friends and yet I didnt hear my own advise!!??i had become a crazy blind girl in “love”.Thank you for bringing that girl power I had lost,the power that reminds me to see me! You have the ability to bring the “snap out of it” with out the sting of the slap that could inpead my progress.Keep doing what you do it is all good!
OMG I just can’t believe how foolish I’ve been, well I can. I was NC for almost a year and then got back with the no hoper, looser of 6 years!!!!! I thought I had worked it all out but of course I had only worked out my part and forgot that ‘I had changed and he hadn’t’ but if I had changed so much, why did I go back???? It wasn’t long after getting back with him that I truly realised what was happening and that yes, I HAD moved on, I just needed to prove it to myself! I realised that he was tapping into all of my ‘old’ insecurities but it wasn’t washing this time because this time they are ‘old’ insecurities, I have moved on from them I just need to keep on working on my new beliefs now, that I AM good enough, that I AM lovable etc etc. My current situation means that I am better off continuing to live with him for the time being but that’s ok, I’m gonna have fun, not at his expense or anything like that but knowing the incredible strength I’ll feel when I do get my own place knowing I was able to be in his company and NOT be dragged down by him. I’ve got a lot of emotions etc to work through as I know they’re gonna come up ~ forgiveness and jealousy among others but they are issues I already know I need to face so why not now, I can’t hide from them so bring it on. I am finally, after all these years of so called living, stepping into my own skin! Ahhhh, this feels nice, thank you for this amazing post and all who have posted on it. It has opened my eyes this morning and now they’re shinning bright! I have a feeling I’m gonna be back on this site much more regularly again, I can do this but I need support and I have found this site to be my best support so far. Thank you Natalie, thank you ladies. When is the next get together? X
You LIVE with this person? How come?
@ixnay ~ thank you ~ that is my story to a tee told so superbly although it was much much worse than that at times but no time to cry over it now, I’ve done more than enough crying, it really is time to be brave now, to really step out into the real world and move on, putting all my ‘learned lessons’ etc into practice but most of all practicing just being! Thank you so much x
Blueberry I saw you wrote this yesterday. Just to comisserate, I too was at karaoke on the same nite and saw the ex with his new bf, it was awkward to say the least. I saw him point me out to her, which was totally unnecessary. Thank goodness I was with a group of friends and having a good time. Then near the end of the nite I looked up and saw him, his gf and good friend all staring at me, no idea why. I have felt weird about that ever since. I’ve been trying to figure out why I feel this way and I think it is the power struggle Nat talks about here. Even after a breakup we struggle to see who got over the other the quickest. I honestly didn’t care about him being with someone, I just don’t like it being in my face after I have totally gone nc….ugh. well its my problem only.
@sm, It’s annoying, I know. He has a right to be there, of course, but why be there if he knows I’ll probably show up? I go to sing just about every week.
Glad u were having fun and unaffected. I felt nervous & stressed. It didn’t help that a girl sitting next to me told me he hit on her a few weeks ago (unsuccessfully; she won’t give him the time of day as she is someone with high self-esteem).
We differ, sm, in that you honestly don’t care if he is with someone else. I look forward to getting to that point.
I’m angry that he busted my NC but I have to get back up in the saddle. He’s an unavailable alcoholic who adds NO value to my life. Knowing all this about him, I’m still feeling the pain and loss and seeing him again is a setback.
At least, I was looking my best and he sees I’m still going out & doing my thing! Thanks for commiserating. Let’s not allow this to derail us & empty a Twinkie box!
Blueberry, I totally get it. I did see this guy out 7 weeks after he broke up with me and it was difficult to deal with. A smokin hot muscular guy was chatting me up the whole nite, which took the sting off a bit. But I did go over and say hello to the ex, he acted like he was not happy to see me then he demanded to know if I was seeing the guy chatting me up. I was so stunned I couldnt think quickly and said no, then I told him I didnt want to know if he was seeing anyone and he said that he did want to know if I was. I beat myself up over that for weeks thinking that I gave over my power and ‘showed my hand’ to him that I was still upset over the breakup. But you know what, I was, so what if he knew. Am I supposed to to pretend like I wasnt? But I felt that since he broke up with me that he could have been a lot nicer when I went over to say hello so I vowed never to speak to him again if I saw him out. I am sure he thought I would and that’s why he pointed me out to his new gf. Whatever!
sm, it sounds to me as if you are far better without him! It’s interesting that they always manage to disappoint – whether you’re with them or not.
I felt a twinge of disappointment that he wouldn’t stay to hear me sing (I trained for years and am quite talented) but then it’s always been about him, his drinking, partying, whatever! He’s stingy and selfish. Your ex had no right to treat you badly when you tried to speak to him, but that reflects his character, right? I remember Nat saying in her book that if they were an asshole in the past, they’re still an asshole in the present. So true.
I struggled for years to get a foothold on some power within my relationship, but I was constantly kept off balance (walking on eggshells) by his unpredictable behavior. Here are two tactics he used effectively; refusing to speak to me because of some perceived wrong he felt i committed (silent treatment), and refusing to resolve conflicts or disagreements (stonewalling). These are power plays….and they can inflict serious damage over the long haul. I would ‘chase’ him in an effort to resolve, ask (sometimes beg) for him to speak to me so we could just move forward…..After I finally figured out these were manipulation tactics, many years had passed.
Sadly I spent many of those years fighting to be heard, fighting to have my opinion considered, fighting to be valued.
In the end I realized I was I really fighting against myself. My gut (true self :)) was screaming at me….saying….CONSIDER ME, LISTEN TO ME, VALUE ME!!! It was I who needed to value ME enough to realize I deserved more, much much more and GET OUT.
Finally…..lesson learned. 🙂
Many women make the mistake of looking for a man with whom to develop a relationship without first developing a relationship with themselves, they run from man to man, looking for what is missing within. The search must begin at home, within the self. No one can ever love us enough to fulfil us if we do not love ourselves, because when in our emptiness we go looking for love, we can only find more emptiness. What we manifest in our lives is a reflection of what is deep inside us-our beliefs about our own worth, our right to happiness, what we deserve in life. When those beliefs change, so does our life.
Women who love very much, Robin Norwood
So true, Rana. My mistake was not so much in looking for a man as it was in simply taking whatever came along. At no point, particularly in the beginning of my relationships with EUM, did i use my rational thinking analytical mind to assess wether or not these relationships would be right or good for me. It would seem chemistry was in control and my brain was MIA.
After hard learned lessons I have finally come to realize what you have posted here by Robin Norwood…that we must first love ourselves and change our core beliefs about our own self worth and right to peace and happiness in our relationships and in life in general. And then make decisions that reflect that.
Rana, you are right. I read yesterday that base of relationship is: friendship+passion+respect!!! I had plenty of passion, power struggle, jealousy, control, but no friendship and respect, I wish I could all drop when it all started, but I was scared to be alone. No more:-)
@Rana very well said in your post. We definitely have to be happy being alone with ourselves first and to go deeper it’s just not man ‘s responsibility to make us happy. We have to be happy and complete already and then we are able to share that happiness in our own lives with someone else. It goes further than just the power struggle. We have to look and get to the root of the issues within us. Who wants to keep attracting and going through same patterns of running into same EUM’s ; AC’s; etc . Same games just different players.
T=F
Thanks for making me laugh…… I think voldermort probably had a better personality.
I haven’t written in about a year. I went through a bad breakup last summer over my birthday that Natalie and a lot of smart women on here helped talk me through. Over the past year I’ve worked a lot on getting over the breakup, and becoming happier person. I got into running and will attempt a sprint triathlon in two weeks! I am past the breakup from a year ago and I’ve had bumps along the way with other people but this summer I got involved with someone I really liked and it has shown me that I haven’t gotten as far as I thought. Maybe I’ve travelled a few feet in a journey of a whole bunch of miles.
I met this guy from France who was smart, accomplished and moved to NY 3 years ago. He had been through some difficulties with women here and wanted to take things slow. I thought that was fine until I saw what slow meant to him. In the month and a half that we dated he never kissed me on the mouth, rarely hugged me or held my hand. He tried to convince me this was normal but soon it came became clear he isn’t over the pain of his last relationship.
Over the short time we dated he became very ill with a chest infection and then fell down injuring himself badly as a result of taking a combo of Prednisone, inhalers antibiotics and other meds. Since he has no family and very few friends, I swept in like Florence Nightingale to take care of him. I can’t tell you honestly if I expected something in return. But I did like him and felt bad for him.
To wrap up, things didn’t go well. After being with I’m every day and helping him get better, I did feel resentment that I was giving so much of myself while he continued to hold back. I didn’t want to roll around in the sheets with someone who was sick but a kind word, a compliment, a kiss, an arm around my shoulder would have been welcome. I found myself in a sort of power struggle where I would shut down around him, he would ask what was wrong and we would end up in an argument over the way things were going, followed by me shutting down more. There was also a healthy dose of. “I’m not pretty, thin, smart, whatever enough for this guy” thrown in.
Yesterday he admitted he hasn’t gotten past some issues he has with women and he also says he can’t picture himself in a relationship with so much arguing. (the same thing my ex said last summer) I feel saddened and depleted by the whole experience especially since I have been trying to improve my self esteem. It wasn’t until yesterday that I realized how much damage I was doing to the relationship. Apparently it’s too late now. He has his own things to deal with too and I incorrectly assumed that if I did everything to make his life better, he would see my value and speed up his own healing process. I’ve read on this very site that this doesn’t happen.
I’d like to know how to proceed as far as the work I need to do on myself and also as far as things are concerned with “Frenchie” he says he still wants to be around me. But I don’t want to be a fallback girl and wait for him to be ready. It might never happen. At least I understand that much now.
Thanks,
Donna
donna-
lessee…. i think i can help us both.
the bad news is you have to get rid of this guy. as in totally, as in NEXT! and that will be very hard, and i’m sorry. the good news is that you don’t have to beat the heck out of yourself while you get over him, you can simply say “ok, made that mistake, now i know what it is, now i won’t do it again”.
you were florence nightingale-ing him from the beginning. he was a wreck and you saw that, but you didn’t believe your own impressions. and no kiss in 6 weeks is NOT normal – who was he kidding when he said that? i think you were waiting for him to validate your impression that he wasn’t over his exes. the thing is, you don’t need that validation, you saw it for yourself. and look how long it took, and what you had to go through, for him to admit that – it took him being so frustrated with the fact that he was disappointing you that he finally admitted the truth as an excuse to pull away from you EVEN FARTHER. WTF?!?!? you don’t want someone like this; you want someone who is READY and CAPABLE.
i did the same thing with my ex-EUM – while he and i resonated in certain important ways, he demonstrated, VERY early on, that he was incapable of conducting anything remotely like what i would consider a normal relationship – while i could tolerate well the problems he had in his life, HE couldn’t, he used them as excuses to be EU – on top of that, he was critical of me (before date 2), emotionally stingy and withholding, and never made any real effort. what a shock that it didn’t work out.
so, don’t let these guys make you feel bad for complaining. however, you are arguing with them because they’re not giving you what you want/need – because you shouldn’t be with them in the first place. you’re only putting yourself in a position to have them say they can’t take all the arguing – how ironic – because they. don’t. want. to. change. and he’s not changing NOT because of anything you did or didn’t do or are or are not. he’s not changing because that’s HIM.
the exact same thing happened with my ex-EUM – i didn’t see how screwed up it all was, how i was florence nightingaling him, how i would NEVER get the love i gave to him back from him (and i really did love him, probably still do, the asshole) – and he was EU, so i was unhappy with him and couldn’t stop complaining. and believe me, there was a lot to complain about. still, my only choice was to leave – eventually i did, but really, the relationship never should have happened at all. because….
because the thing that happens when we pick EUMs is that we miss how we are EU – if we weren’t EU, then these guys wouldn’t look good to us, they would look like non-starters, which is exactly what they are. we wouldn’t respond to them, we’d pass them by and respond to guys who were emotionally available and capable.
look, i know its hard to wait until the right one comes along. and its hard to learn these lessons, because it means we have to give up the identity we had, which is scary. but you’ve come so far, donna. you just need to keep going. you need to complete you with you. NOT them.
so, no more florence nightingale. take that energy and use it to love you.
and please flush this guy – he cannot give you want you need. and your needs are legitimate, you just have to find a guy who shares similar values and goals and is AVAILABLE. and every time you miss him, remind yourself that he didn’t kiss you for 6 weeks….and really, wtf is that. no. be available, fully, to yourself. then you’ll see how EU guys don’t look quite so good. trust me – i know this from experience.
here – here’s the thought i use to comfort myself when i miss EUM – and sorry, this is graphic. he had hot and cold running oral sex from me 24/7. but he was so stingy, he never reciprocated once. not once. now, the man who is my boyfriend should crave me and want to give me pleasure in that way, that’s his job, and he should beg me to let him do it. and if he doesn’t? he shouldn’t be my boyfriend.
Thank you, cc
“so, don’t let these guys make you feel bad for complaining. however, you are arguing with them because they’re not giving you what you want/need – because you shouldn’t be with them in the first place. you’re only putting yourself in a position to have them say they can’t take all the arguing – how ironic – because they. don’t. want. to. change. and he’s not changing NOT because of anything you did or didn’t do or are or are not. he’s not changing because that’s HIM.”
That paragraph meant a lot to me. It validated not only this present experience, but it sums up what I was feeling last summer with my ex bf.
I know I have issues to work on as far as the way I engage in conflict. But I know inside that the concerns I have had in relationships were valid. Somehow our willingness to engage with these types of men beyond a certain point affects our credibility. That’s what happens to me. I entertain guys that most women would give up on. After a while of explaining, pleading and arguing to be heard I start to look crazy…even if I was right initially. I am great full that at least this guy admitted finally that he has issues. It is easier for me to take ownership over what MY issues are without taking responsibility for his.
donna-
ok, i’m glad it helped. it took me a very, very long time to be able to understand all of that in a way that helped me, that made me feel strong.
some things aren’t worth being right about. some fights aren’t worth fighting.
and yes, we do lose credibility. when the guy has already acknowledged that he can’t give us what we want and then – the twist – rather than seeing things our way (because, after all, we are right) HE wonders why WE are still hanging around – because he’s perfectly being ok as the mess he is and is perfectly ok if we decide to leave him – he’s waiting for us to leave him, and loses respect for us when we don’t. that’s the kicker, the final blow, the ultimate insult. we don’t see things the way these guys do – but that doesn’t make them any less true.
its like that movie “war games” when it comes to EUMs – the only way to win is not to play.
don’t play with these guys anymore, donna. they’re so not worth it.
but YOU are worth it.
big hug
I see some posters have recently had to see an ex after a period of NC (blueberry girl and sm). I will be in this situation for this next week, starting with a ‘team-building dinner” I have to attend tonight with the ex-cheating cheater, and continuing all week on a work project. I have read all the tips about staying NC with someone at work, and I do feel much stronger than I did a week ago about having to see him. There are a few concerns, though, and they are around balance of power. Although I have ended contact with him almost 7 weeks ago, I still was unable to sleep much last night as I am anxious about seeing him. I have rehearsed what I will say and do to keep things business like and to keep my power in this situation. I have been repeating affirmations to myself that I am focusing on me, and that I an letting him go. The problem is – my body betrays me! I am visibly shaking even now, before seeing him, and I blush soooo easily. If these things happen when I see him in person, he will see I am still affected by him (giving him power). He has power in the work situation anyway, as he his tight with the steering committee and is an all-around “people pleaser”. I do have anti-anxiety meds I could take, but I don’t want to be drowsy in a work situation and I really prefer not to take them. I will be trying my hardest to stand my ground but would appreciate anyone sending positive energy my way to get through this. Thank you.
Learner
ultimately it really doesn’t matter if you blush or give away some sign that his presence has an affect on you – the only important thing for you is that you are out and to stay out of the OW (and “friends”) situation with this man. If you achieve that you have succeeded. So far your are a success! It was a struggle – a battle for power between you – a battle for yourself and for your freedom from the crap you were in: You won!! Yay. All you need to do now is keep winning – keep fighting for you – keep choosing you.
What he thinks /knows/thinks he knows is neither here nor there to you in *your* objective: to keep choosing you.
I had to organise and event last January at which my ex EUM was a speaker. I felt a lot like you. I was anxious about how it would affect me and my performance. I held on to what I have said above and to the fact that whatever is/whatever I say/don’t say/whatever I feel/whatever he thinks… and the rest… I am NOT going back there. That was fixed in my mind. I had won my own battle. What was there to be afraid of? I asked myself. I came up wit this answer: Nothing.
Just go in there and focus on the job to be done. Distance your mind from him. He is just a man. He happens to be there. He’ll be treated like every other man who is there – no better, no worse.
Recognise when you do not have to fight anymore. Stop fighting/struggling. Stop buying into ‘a battle’. There doesn’t have to be one. Your struggle will stop when you stop struggling. Lay down your arms! It’s over. That’s the great thing! Enjoy the peace.
learner-
fearless said it better. that’s it. stop fighting. you don’t care what he thinks of you, he’s free to think whatever he wants or nothing at all. you have better things to do. like, you.
learner-
you decide that, no matter what you do, how you react, that you’re keeping your power. stop seeing everything about you, blushing easily, shaking, whatever, as giving over to him. you are human, its been less than 2 months, he cheated, and you have a right to your feelings.
so YOU give YOU your own right. breathe. keep breathing. because if you judge yourself or tense up, you’re only MORE likely to have those reactions, or lose control.
decide that you’re fine no matter what you do, no matter what happens. because NOW is when you’re giving him power. when you’re worrying about how YOU’ll react to this, this … what is he? a smiley, talk show host, cheating, manipulator? seemingly friendly but with a seamy, sleezy underside?
you’re going to have to see him. it will suck. you’re preparing, and will keep breathing and do the best you can, but beyond that? the hell with it! the hell with him! see yourself as powerful, and vulnerable, and beautiful, and real, but beyond his diseased reach. then, if you blush, who cares? certainly not you.
and i bet that if you take this tack, you’ll be much more in control because you won’t give nearly as much of a crap about it.
good luck.
Hi Learner:
IMHO I would take the anxiety meds. You can have some coffee with them, but doubt that you will fall asleep due to residual nerves. But that is my opinion; you know what is best for you.
I am so sorry that you are in that sitution. That is really hard. If it helps, everyone on this board has been in it one way or another and has gotten through it. Just don’t go into it expecting yourself to be “perfect” i.e. not shake and just avoid him as much as possible. If he gets off on his control than, frankly, he is a big loser who needs a life. Normal people with true self-esteem would feel horrible seeing an ex that they traumatized and treated badly, shaking…then again, normal people don’t traumatize other.
Chin up and you can do it!
Fearless, cc and dancingqueen,
Thank you so much for your replies – you have *all* advised beautifully. Everything you said made complete sense, and I just wonder why I couldn’t have come up with these ideas myself!
@Fearless – you are so right, I just have to keep choosing me to stay “winning”. You wrote “What was there to be afraid of? I asked myself. I came up wit this answer: Nothing.” And that makes so much sense when we have the power to keep the focus on ourselves. I need to stop struggling and realize that I *do* have the power to continue recovering from this, and not to be sucked back into any shady “friendship” with this ghastly man. Like you, I am NOT going back there!
@cc – yes, I am human. We are all human. Thank you. I will be fine no matter what happens with this “smiley, talk show host, cheating, manipulator – seemingly friendly but with a seamy, sleezy underside”. I think you have his character nailed, lol. Breathing slowly and deeply now, and taking comfort in your idea that I am beyond his diseased reach. Ach, which reminds me I need to get myself tested for diseases. Soon.
@dancingqueen – I started getting really clumsy and dropping things, so I went ahead and took the medication. I think it has taken the edge off enough that I can still focus, and you’re right, I am not feeling drowsy at all. Just calmer. Thanks for your kind words of support.
OK – off to the dinner meeting shortly. I will keep all of your words with me. Thanks again.
Good luck, Learner. I wish I could have posted earlier to express my support but have been dealing with a “shady shanghai” myself!
Tell yourself you are strong, which you are incredibly to extract yourself from your awful situation so quickly & with such conviction. Dating myself here, but for those Americans, i was remembering the Brady Bunch episode where Marcia had to give a speech. She was given the advice to picture everyone in the audience in their underwear. She gave her presentation, so relaxed, with a smile and did just that! Sometimes it helps to inject some humor into a bad situation. Hope this relieves some pressure!
Blueberry girl
Thank you. I have had to work with him for 2 days in a row now, and I have managed to keep things business-like (more or less – I did accept the cup of tea he bought for me this morning, but just said a quick thank you). Otherwise we are managing to avoid each other with no-one seeming to think it’s weird.
I have a presentation tomorrow, which he will attend, and now I plan to imagine his pants falling down in front of the work team, revealing tatty, stained underwear. Lol.
Marcia Brady was onto something (and so are you) – humour really is helpful when trying to maintain a feeling of strength!
Good for you Learner. Glad to hear that you are doing well and focused on your work and avoiding him. Remember, calm, cool, collected. The struggle is over and you have your freedom and future ahead of you.
Runnergirl
Thank you. 3 days down, 2 to go. He has now given up trying to engage with me, and has taken to avoiding direct conversation and eye contact with ME, even when we are having group discussions with team members. It stings a little, but I just keep thinking that I am so glad to be free from the powerless “OW to the OW” status. So far, I have managed to hold back tears, and feel fairly calm and strong. I appreciate your continued encouragement at this difficult time.
PS, my presentation went better than I ever imagined 🙂
Learner
“my presentation went better than I ever imagined”
Yay! Good for you! That he’s given up trying is a good sign; it means he knows his gig is up, that you’ve wised up to him; it’s dawning on him that you’re not going to be that woman anymore (not for him, not for anyone!) It hurts now but you’ll be so glad later. Be pleased with yourself – it’s allowed.
Learner, just wanted to let you know that I’m thinking of you and sending you lots of support and strength from the land down under. A few days ago I received an email from a student of my exMM requesting some help with research. He’d suggested that she contact me. It crossed my mind that I could use this as an excuse to reach out to him. I have a bad cold at the moment and feeling a little vulnerable. Realising this was contributing to my present state I sat on my hands and did nothing (except send some info to the student). I thought about your situation and how well you are coping. You really are moving forward fast and that thought helps me to do the same. In fact, the courage of all the people here on BR keeps me going. I didn’t break NC and although the cold is still bad, I’m feeling ok. Down, but not out.
Learner – I admire your strength and courage to take such great care of yourself even when faced with your AC at work. Keep us posted and keep taking care of yourself. I know how hard this can be since my EUM is at work as well and it makes it hard to move on and put the whole thing behind you. Best wishes. 🙂
Hip hip hooray for you, Learner! You’re handling this superbly, be proud of yourself!
Aww, thank you Fearless, Lilly, Lilian and Teddie. I feel like I have a team of wonderful, strong women on my side and it helps so much. He bought me (plus his male colleague) a cup of tea this morning – out of habit I suppose – but I did not sit with him to drink it. I used to think it was sweet but now it’s a bit annoying.
Lilly, I hope your cold is better soon. Good for you, too, for avoiding the temptation to contact the exMM. We have now surpassed the 7 week NC mark 🙂
Thanks for another great post Nat!
I wonder if this would link to the very early stages of dating if one person was making all the decisions about the time/date/location/frequency of the dates?
I’ve been on a date recently with a guy who I met on public transport (v unusual in London!). The date went fairly well and we were meant to meet up last week but because we were both busy last week we aranged for this tuesday instead. But he texted me today asking if I wanted to go on a lunch date instead and he could come to me as he has the week off. I asked about Tues but he gave a wishy washy answer saying it’s hard to arange his week off and he would prefer a lunch date. This was followed by another long text saying ‘the problem wasn’t that he had arranged something else’ on tues but he was due to perform a music event on Wed (playing piano) and he knew he would be nervous/worried the night before.
Should I bother still seeing him again? It seems like he is ‘flip-flapping’ as Nat would put it and I remember on the first date he was indesisive about what we would do and when. Or am I just being super cautious?
Any advice would be appreciated!
Perhaps it´s too soon to know. I wouldn´t reach any conclusion before a month has elapsed – at least. Just don´t get emotionally involved, use this as a way to get to know him.
I was complaining to a friend about dates that don´t seem to be going anywhere and he said Well maybe they are just not meant to go beyond what they are at the moment.
Only if things evolve, after 10 orso dates can you estimate where things are / aren´t going and if you are interested in a long term relationship with this particular person.
That doesn´t mean you shouldn´t be cautious – register the fact that this guy seems indecisive but don´t get frustrated about it, you are only just making the inventory, so to say.
I don’t really call that flipflapping. He is giving you an explanation which sounds reasonable. He perhaps didn’t offer it first off because he might have been concerned that it made him seem a “wuss”. He has made another arrangement. But do whatever works for you, it’s not really a big decision at this stage as he’s really little more than a stranger.
My goodness. All of these scenarios sound so unhealthy, yet many of us have been in those situations. I guess that it makes more sense when stepping away from the madness, seeing it written down (on here), and growing in wisdom.
Let’s all say “Never again.”
Donna Lopez you hit the nail on the head! ‘After being with these men a while, we start to lose credibility’. That had happened to me more than once. But no more, I have too much to lose.
I did a “Suck It Up and See” with one of my ex’s. I thought my EU/ fear of intimacy, etc. was the cause of the ‘break up’, and I wanted another chance, ….
The short lived reunion was a messy power struggle: We both pushed the reset button, and I think we both wanted the relationship on our own terms, and it felt like we were both drivers.
Clearly, he wanted a virtual sexship, and I wanted him to come see me, go for coffee, a walk…take it slow, and get to know each other.
I thought I was emotionally available, and I put myself out there, but he seemed to be ignoring me when I was showing him in-to-me, and he kept trying to steer me into virtual sex, phone sex, sending him sexy pictures, and I was starting to cave because I like sex, and I miss it, and having sex with him would have been just lovely, BUT I was determined to confront my sexual desire pattern because I truly want more than a sexual ‘relationshit’… stupid virtual sex (he wasn’t even planning on giving me the real thing), and I started to get pissed off because he just kept at the sex, SEX, SEX thing, and weekends were passing, and he hadn’t asked me out, or even mentioned that he wanted to see me…stupid email, phone, text, virtual bullshit! was all I was getting with a few, how was your day’s, and your amazing’s deliberately placed for good measure.
So, after he did another, give me sex play, I opted out, told him I didn’t want a virtual sexshit, but I didn’t treat him with love, care, trust, and respect when I ended it; instead, I wrote one of my mean-playful emails, basically suggesting that he was a virtual sex freak, and I planned on staying the hell away from him. And at first he just said, ok, “whatever…later for you,” but then he proceeded to send me a stream of really abusive, hateful, evil, threatening emails , whereas he deliberately attacked me.
The worse part of it all was that he told me that he KNEW he was behaving badly, but that it was my fault because I hurt him first, and even after I told him that he was really hurting me, he continued without missing a beat.
Yes, I know that I am not responsible for his ‘reaction’, and I will NEVER excuse, tolerate, or accept his behavior, and I have gone NC–14 days now…. I absolutely do not like the way he talked to me, treated me, and I would never subject myself to that type of abuse…his temper is just so….
But I am responsible for my own actions, and I feel as if I definitely made some mistakes: I feel bad because I don’t really like this guy, as I thought I did; I was just looking for male attention, and I knew that I had a problem with that, but I didn’t get a grip on it. I was busy trying to overcome my sexual desire addiction.
Maybe I purposely used him to confront that pattern. I don’t know. Maybe I just wanted to go back with my eyes wide open, and correct our past ‘relationship’ failure because deep down I know he has always just been interested in “getting sex” from me. Maybe I just wanted to stand in front of him, and walk away from his desire to use me…correct a ‘wrong’.
Or, maybe, I just didn’t see the need for attention on my part as the real pattern I needed to break.
Onleaving, it’s the attention seeking you need to break. It’s fine to have an attentive boyfriend. But this sex thing you had going on is absurd. Attentiveness is only worth having if it’s given freely. I am attentive to my nieces because I love them. The man is attentive to me because he genuinely likes me. This has got nothing to do with jumping through hoops for a bone (excuse the innuendo).
And we all need to stop congratulating ourselves on how well we are handling these numpties – I ignored him, he has no effect on him, I can spend time with him and not get upset, I can be mean to him too, I’m learning this or that from dealing with him. It’s still all about him and the (faux)power you are feeling from how you interacting with him!
Go on, if you feel that powerful, cut him off (please!)
Grace,
I don’t feel powerful. I feel like I lacked the self-confidence and belief in myself, and my own values to just tell him that I didn’t want a sexual relationship–virtual or otherwise.
I don’t know what happened. I felt confident enough to date again, but when push came to shove, I started doubting myself, and I thought that I was making a big deal out of his sexual comments…I thought there was something ‘wrong’ with me not him. I thought that I just didn’t know…. I thought that he was just expressing how attracted he was to me, and I got confused about his boundaries versus my own, but still it made me uncomfortable, but I didn’t know what to say. I literally could not find the words. Maybe I was afraid of making one false move. I don’t know. All I know is that lately, I have noticed that I don’t always have the self-confidence that I thought I had when it comes to taking action, etc. I feel like I talk a good game, but then when something happens, I feel like a scared little girl. It has completely knocked me on my butt.
I had to make a conscious decision to stand up for myself the other day. I was literally telling myself out loud in my head. What are you going to do? Are you going to stand up to these people or not? Are you going to abandon yourself or not? Are you going to seek validation from them or are you going to validate yourself? So, I decided to stick up for myself, and I did, and that is what I also did with this ‘ex’.
So, no, I’m holding my congratulations for when I stop engaging with numpties all together, and I know that day will come because I’m not going to give up, no matter how hard things get for me…now I do feel some power in that idea.
I didn’t have virtual or any other kind of sex with him, but I came close because I wanted to, but I changed my mind, and I’m not proud of my waffling, and I am disappointed in myself for the way I handled the entire situation…I feel more frustrated than anything else…and aggravated at the idea of still having more personal issues to deal with and overcome, but again, it is either move forward, or stay in the same place, so I’m choosing to move forward.
And yes, I cut him off, but that doesn’t make me feel powerful, I feel sad, blue, and disappointed in the end result, but grateful to rid myself of my denial and false hope.
Yes, I agree, attentiveness should be given freely. I’m not interested in forcing someone to be attentive; I agree, if the man genuinely liked me he would…, and it wasn’t easy to admit to myself that the man just doesn’t like me 🙁
Thank you for the feed back. 🙂
I think the real power struggle is within ME. Trying to heal is so damn hard sometimes. Identifying patterns…pffftttt, sometimes they are standing right in front of me as clear as day, and I am too busy arguing with God about what I want…give it to me now…why are you taking me down this path when I want to go this way?!?? or I’m pouting at my angels, asking them to help me understand because I get so confused.
And, it all seems so simple when I finally “see the light.” God seems as if he has a sense of humor…I just got another AC in my life trying to chance his arm with me with compliments and attention out the wazooo, but he only wants to pass time with me, roll around on top of me to add some spice to his otherwise boring day. I see the pattern now God.
But that doesn’t seem to get me out of Sugarland…out of this hell. There are still more patterns all around me, more patterns, more tests, and I’m tired!
I have this constant battle within self: Inner child vs ego vs moments of clarity, remembering my God, angels showing up, a glimpse of my authentic self, moving past a pattern, lather rinse repeat.
My inner child makes a lot of mistakes, but she’s strong, and I can always count on her to show up. My ego can act like a real idiot, but she reminds me of who I am and who I am not. But who I really want to get to know is my authentic self because listening to my inner child and ego, alone, always seems to get me into trouble. I look to God, but I still can’t seem to find that wise part of me.
What part of me is my wise voice? When will she show up and lead my life?
Why doesn’t she speak up?
If I can find her, I know I can get out of Sugarland, but I can’t feel her…or can I? Is she speaking to me now?
My ex epic thing with the EUM was definitely a power struggle.He struggled to manage my expectations down;I struggled to make him stop doing that. I struggled to get love from an unlikely source (read: impossible source). I saw my EUM on Sunday (a day that he usually is not in his office), very briefly. I don’t want to bore with the why and how that happened (cos that’s not what my comment is about); suffice to say, I decided to get rid of boxes of volumes of (important)books belonging to his department that I’ve been tripping over in my home for over two years. I texted him to ask if the door would be open so I could finally drop these books off. A few texts went back and forth about this. (I know I’ll get ribbed on BR for texting him about it -fair enough – but that’s what I did). He met me at the door, I helped him upstairs with the boxes… he asked asked how my daughter was doing then didn’t listen to the answer (so typical)… thanked me for returning the books…. gave me a bottle of wine by way of thanks… walked with me downstairs to my car at the front door, and I left (with him muttering his usual ‘talk to you soon’, which I stopped hearing many moons ago cos I learned that it meant shag all; I’m looking or expecting to hear from him anyway.)
Point is – aside from the roasting for putting myself in his way again which I fully expect to get; what I noticed and felt was that I, for once, was the stronger, the more confident, the more self-assured,the more in control than him (by far the more attractive! But I always was – It just never felt like it). He appeared to me quite pathetic; a man who’s all work and no love in his life; that he knows that I know that he’s just a jerk and that I always was the stronger and bigger person (for want of better descriptors) – he just managed to make me feel ‘less than’, or I managed to make myself feel ‘less than’ in the face of his ‘driver’ abilities, his confidence, self-assuredness,his intellect, his success. And what struck me in seeing him is that it is was him who felt ‘less than’/inadequate/limited – he didn’t know how to react to me; he had no footing, he bumbled and mumbled; he looked sad, forlorn. And of course what short dialogue that passed between us was all about him – ‘I’m so tired – i’ve got a pain up my right arm, I think that’s because…. blah, blah’ (same old, same old) – not one syllable about ‘us’ or where we have ended up but that was not in the least surprising; it’s exactly what I’d expect from him.
When I drove off all I could think was – and that’s what all your fuss has been about all these years! Sheesh – that man is seriously wanting. But that in itself has affected me – cos I’m now realising even more fully than I did before that I was in love with nothing. It’s quite painful but I also think necessary. I won. If that’s what I wanted. But it doesn’t feel like it. It feels like a loss that can never be anything else but a loss. Sorry for blabbing but I needed to get that out!
Hi Fearless,
No roasting from snowboard! (But do be careful, as I can imagine him sending you a text or email soon…)
Your ex-EUM sounds like just a really sad person, and a part of me feels really bad for him, especially as it sounds like he is never going to change, and he didn’t have the good sense to fight for the one woman who would put up with him. But I’m so happy you’re free of him, and that you finally found yourself after all those years.
Stay strong.
Many hugs
My last comment about it being a bumpy ride was so prescient. Got a mail tonight from a mutual friend of my ex(unaware of our relationship) saying ex was on a last minute break with his girlfriend. Stomach took a roller coaster plunge. Knew he had probably moved on in our month of no contact but new woman? All the usual feelings about the new girl being better, cooler than me. Hurts so much.
fearless
texting is all right provided you’re not trying to use it to conduct a relationship.
You don’t have to defend dropping off some books but be careful you don’t get drawn back in. I cut off an Ex EUM who I had no intention of getting back with. I didn’t fancy him. I didn’t think about him. I just finally found him too annoying with his constant me, me, me whining (sounds familiar?) And, the selfless part of me figured that if he was going to have any chance, albeit a slim one, of meeting someone and committing (shock), then I had to duck out of his life altogether.
After a while, NC isn’t about avoiding being hurt, or healing, or learning a lesson. You’ve moved on. If you met them in the street you would say hello and goodbye but neither of you feels the need for any more.
Snowboard and Grace
Thanks for your comment/support. I appreciate. Unlike other guys I read about on BR, Snowboard, there is no way my ex would send me a text or am email soon! (not that I need or want one!); he would need an invitation to do that, like me giving him some kind of green light – permission to re-set, which ain’t going to happen – ever. He does not ever put himself up for the possibility of any kind of rejection no matter how small – he protects his ego like it’s the crown jewels. I won’t hear from him – that we can add that to one of life’s certainties along only with death and taxes!
The thing for me (which did affect me when I saw him) is that I know spell is broken and that he also knows this; he knows I ‘get it now’ (if I’m making any sense). The sad thing is that other than knowing that I am now beyond his spell, he has learned nothing and knows nothing; it’s like he’s in a time warp – a big hole void of any true, intimate connection with himself or any other human being; a void that he fills with his work, work, work and the achievement and accolades that comes from the results. Gee whizz, who did I think I was kidding with this man. It’s awful.
Grace, no way would I be drawn back in. that is what I knew when I drove off. No way. You are right – he annoys me; now that I see him/it for what it is/was. Once I’d come really far with NC, I used to wish there was a ‘safe” way to go back into the battlefield with him, even for a week or two because I felt that if was with him again I would feel exactly as you say in your comment – that I would see and notice with full clarity all of his agendas and behaviours for what they were and my exit may have been completely organic, completely of my own desire and volition rather than forced by NC. I think I’m there now anyway and that’s what feels quite strange. That I am truly done. It’s a bit scary. He/it is still occupying some of my headspace though – I need to be over it – it’s not even him anymore,it’s “it”.
“He does not ever put himself up for the possibility of any kind of rejection no matter how small – he protects his ego like it’s the crown jewels.”
This is both really funny and insightful. It never occurred to me that an EUM might ignore the FBG as a way to protect themselves from the possibility of rejection, but that makes total sense. It also allows him to continue to justify his actions and blame the woman for the way he treats her: “She pursued me!”
You say he still occupies some headspace; my friends and I have a theory that you never fully stop thinking about the last person until you find a new romantic interest…
Hey Snowboard,
Yep, I am sure it’s got a lot to do with his ‘ego’ – not (just!) about emotional unavailability.
Though it pains me a great deal to think it, I do now believe my ex EUM has some clear narcissistic traits; he presents a front – a self – which is very impressive, intellectual, caring, moralistic, thoughtful, but he can’t put his money where his mouth is (it’s all intellectual with him) – ask him how he feels, ask him to discuss *any* relationship issue, ask him to “be a man” (if you see what I mean) in the relationship and he becomes cold, callous. By text I’d get things like, “I’m not having a debate” or “No. And don’t ask me again” or “Stop this”.
Silent treatment and stonewalling is second nature to him; I did not have a voice in that relationshit. Basically, it was shut up or eff of (though he’d never swear at me – that was beneath him! ha.)
If he was actually in my presence and I asked him for an explanation for anything to do with his behaviour (his empty promises, for example) or anything about the relationship at all (that he wasn’t in it, for example) he’d literally run away like a rabbit caught in headlights; like a child protecting itself against some kind of assault. And he wouldn’t contact me again at all until I gave him an ‘all clear’.
I now think he knows that he is not really the “strong” person what he presents to the world; that emotionally he is a total asshole and he gets very nervous/cold when he thinks his charade is about to be revealed. His ego is paramount; it over-rides everything and anyone else. It’s to be protected at any cost.
Horrible. Horrible. Horrible. I feel as if I’ve been emotionally abused, pummelled, barbecued by this person over a long period of time, which is why I think I still struggle with “it”. I had a great urge late last night to have my mum cuddle me, to hold me, and let me cry and cry (she would do that if she knew how I felt but I wouldn’t want her upset by that and she would be.)
But I did realise that what I need right now is to be allowed to weep it all out in the arms of someone who cares about me; that what I’m missing just now is that kind of emotional support (that which a wounded child would get from its mother – I’m appreciating that some of us never had that kind of a mother).
Anyway, yes, I agree that until we meet someone knew there is always a space in our heads occupied by the ‘last one’. For me, I just want to be better – to feel whole again. Pardon my outpouring.
fearless
ask your mother. you’d be heartbroken if your daughter went through this and didn’t ask you.
Wow Fearless, your exEUM doesn’t happen to live in Australia does he? If not, he has a twin down under! I’m blown away by your description you could have been telling my story. I hope you managed to get that well needed cuddle. Sending lots of warm hugs your way.
Grace
emmmmm…. I know what your saying – if the moment is right this weekend I’ll ask her for a hug – but that’s all! (she’s a caring mother but not gushy with her affections and I don’t confide in her – she has enough on her plate!) Thanks for your concern.
I think it mostly just occurred to me that even though I (we/us) are older, we still could use a good bubble and a cuddle sometimes. I tend to struggle away with very little attention to or awareness of my own emotional needs (hence my tolerance for years of EUM); I think BR etc. is having me listen to myself more and pay more attention to my feelings as I understand now that these can be warning signs. I never questioned my feelings before (or with the EUM) – I just felt them, suffered them, got on with it till I felt better. I think our relationship with ourselves can also be a struggle; for me I struggle to be strong when I don’t feel like it! Reminds me of a the EUM saying to me once very matter-of-factly ‘but you’re a very strong person’ and it annoyed me somehow – the matter-of-fact of it, as if to tell me ‘but you have brown eyes’. It’s not that I didn’t get what he meant, but a lot of people tell me that and it’s as if to negate the effort it takes – that it’s a case of ‘must is a great master’.
Sometimes I just don’t want to be strong – I want to be able to stop. But must *is* a great master.
Lilly, no, he’s not in Australia, but I could send him if you like, with a one way ticket on a very slow boat! Thanks for the warm hug. Am feeling it!
Hey Fearless, sending a big hug your way. Do ask your mum. I would squeal with delight and be floating on air if my daughter asked me…wouldn’t you be delighted if your daughter came to you during a tough time?
Also, it might help to re-read the section in Nat’s Dreamer book about disappointment. I found that section very comforting. Our emperors had no clothes. It was difficult for me to let go of the power struggle because I stupidly believed there was a chance of winning. Followed by the tremendous disappointment that what I would have won was a lying cheating coward. But we really did win. We won us. They lost.
I agree with Grace; I think you should try to talk to your mom. Or your daughter. I know my sister has been a rock of support for me in my journey. In any case, at least give some thought to why you don’t want to “upset” your mother. I can imagine Natalie suggesting that looking for love from an unavailable source goes hand-in-hand with not seeking love from an available one. Many hugs
Runner, thank you so much! yes, I will go and read that section of the book again at some point. (I think right now, I just want to feel better – and I will!)
Totally – the emperor’s new clothes. It’s the ‘nothingness’ of it all that does my head in. It’s getting round the paradox that I’m grieving the loss of nothing. Nobody lived and nobody died yet I’m leading the funeral wake and wearing the black and weeping at the graveside and holding the purvey. And seeking comfort for my loss. WTF. It’s crazy.
I don’t want to wander way of the topic. so that’s all. Thanks and hugs too!
@Snow,
it’s funny that you say that because the very thing came to my own mind yesterday – like a light bulb coming on. I had an OMG moment. I have some loving sources, yes, why do I feel awkward about opening myself up to them and getting some love when I need it from the giving source!? I have spoken to my sister about it from time to time (but she’s a bit self involved and doesn’t see how hurt I am over it all, not really; I could easily though say to her ‘I so need a big cuddle’ – I’d get it. I’ll do that.) and I have recently opened up communications with a good friend of mine who is going through some trouble in her marriage – I’ve spoken to her and she at least ‘gets it’ and she is supportive (so that’s good to know). As for my mum – she’d wonder where the hell all this came from! It’d be easier if I had just broken up with a partner or something and was greetin’ my eyes out – she’s come straight away and make me tea and tell me I’ll be okay etc..
But Snowboard, I totally get your point; I’m glad you said it cos it has affirmed my own light bulb moment and it’s something I will think about and pay more attention to. So thanks. and cheers for your support!
Sorry Nat if I’ve wandered… I’ll close the ‘all about me’ topic now. Thanks so much for this space.
Fearless,
Sorry that you had to go through some discomfort after seeing your EUM again. BUT: how wonderful that you are no longer his “passenger”, or “under his spell”, that you feel stronger than him, that you see him fully for who he is now. He sounds as self-absorbed and emotionally stunted as the exMM I have been involved with. Your addiction is broken, you are well on the road to recovery, and you are taking care of YOU. Great!!! Of course, I know it’s still not easy after realizing you were taken advantage of, and were “in love with nothing” You have captured the way I feel, myself, after seeing the exMM this week. Adding my hugs to those who have sent them already:
(((((Fearless)))))
Thanks learner (you sure are a fast learner. Good for you!)
I guess it just goes to show that even when we feel we are totally over it and beyond the danger zone that we should still stay well away regardless. And regardless of whose fault it is the whole dynamic is mind-effery. I am also aware that at this point I’m doing it to myself! He’s not doing anything to me (he would likely argue that he never has!); I’m doing it.
Thanks for your hugs. ((same back)). You done good!
Aww Fearless. I had a friend I would call and just cry to. I’d let it all out as I was driving down the road. (I’m sure people at stop lights thought I was crazy!!) She never discounted, dismissed, or tried to talk me out of my feelings. Just let me wail and talk it out. That’s the best. Want her number???!! 🙂
Sugar land
I wouldnt beat yrself up abt the way you ended things w Mr Virtual Sex Freak. The meain thing is that you got rid of him – hopefully for good. See it as a blessing. By giving him a tiny dose of his own medicine ie ending it by text in a smart arse way you provoked his TRUE (abusive) colors to shine through in all their glory, presumably, in an overt way they never had before. Now his character (i.e. AN ABUSER) was CLEAR making it so much EASIER for you to STAND BY YOUR DECISION TO OPT OUT.
I did a similar thing with a guy I dated with similar result. He was the mummy’s boy – still living at home – having NEVER MOVED OUT at 38 yo. He’d never paid rent, & I also discovered did not pat pay tax, as his home based business was all cash in hand. I was hoping to purchase a second property as an investment with a finiancial partner! This guy was CLEARLY not going to cut it! LOL Anyway, the mother issue was the reason I ended it. Then, 18 mths later he attempts to est a friendship. There was never any nasty stuff & we had some other things in common so I though ok, I will see what happens. He offers to help hang some cutains knowing I have a room to rent & am needing the income a border will provide. I say nothing & get someone else to help. He is aware I am seriously ill / unable to work / have been diagnosed with depression & regularly passes by my area but never once calls or stops by to see how I’m going. 9 mths later I get a late night text asking how I’m going. I text back & say if you really cared you would not be asking via text so late at night & would have made an effort to find out much sooner given you KNOW I have in fact been SERIOUSLY ILL. Then here comes the kicker. He texts back & says (& I kid you not) ‘I don’t think you’re as sick as you say you are’. I had just completed 3 mths of intensive hospital rehab treatment for one condition & was in the process of undergoing tests to start chemotherapy for another. I hit the proverbial roof & texted back ‘Piss off you rude c*nt. You have not been around AROUND TO ATTEND A SINGLE DR OR HOSPITAL APPOINTMENT WITH ME SO YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TAKING ABOUT (let alone visited me in hospital etc!!). Followed by a request telling him not to ever contact me again.’ IT WAS THEN THAT HIS REAL & TRUE SELF WAS FINSLLY REVEALED. He responded by becoming ver abusive. I turned off the phone & just deleted the messages in the morning. What a bloody tosser! And to think I had once had sex with that moron. YUKKK!!! So as I say, if your case as well as mine, that guy did you a favour. Of course I regret momentarily losing my manners but it was absolutelt meant to be & undoubtedly saved me goodness knows how many more headachaes going forward. Thus, WHO CARES?! IT HAPPENS. HE’S AN ASSWIPE & IT WILL DO HIM GOOD TO HAVE A TASTE OF HIS OWN MEDICINE. JUST MOVE ON. I did & have never felt better!!! 😉
Thanks Teachable. :). You’re so right about these abusers. Funny, my ‘ex’ is a mummy’s boy as well, and what you said about him accusing you of lying about how sick you were…well, that really hit home with me because my ‘ex’ accused me of lying about intimate details about myself that I shared with him: I would put myself out there, and tell him how I was feeling, or share some of my most intimate thoughts, and sometimes he would tell me that what I shared about myself wasn’t true, or…make a joke out of it, and then proceed to tell me who I am. Of course the person that he said that I was was a person with characteristics that he wanted to exploit. For example, he kept insisting that I was a tease, so as to justify his sexual advances, etc.
I remember feeling bullied in those moments…being manipulated into thinking that I wanted to do things that I knew that I didn’t want to do (or I was trying to stop doing), but that he insisted that I did, and I felt really confused, questioning whether he was right about me . Maybe I didn’t know who I was, and he did, after all I was constantly fighting off my addiction to sexual desire, er, lust. That’s when I almost gave into the desire, but something inside me saved me, and…. Craaaaaaaaaaaazyyyyyyy stuff…a total mind f**k.
I remember telling him: “I know who I am; don’t tell me who I am.” and he said, “I just did,so #$%^^.”
The thing is, he was mostly very attentive, loving, etc…gentle, understanding, supportive, complimentary, etc, and we ‘talked’…got on so well, but then we would have these moments where he would try to dominate me,and if I resisted, then he would turn on me, and I would find myself apologizing for no reason, just to keep the peace, and it wasn’t so noticeable, it was all very subtle, but now when I look back, I can see how each incident, led to another incident that eventually escalated into him becoming more aggressive in his attempts to control the relationship, which all led up to his ultimate aggression against me when I refused to have sex with him.
Funny, I don’t even think he gave much thought to his behavior. It seemed more like he just said, “ok, ready, aim, fire,” and then he waited to see if I would fall back in line…so calculated, so desensitized to how he was treating me….
You’re right; I can only move on, and I am doing just that, but I miss the man that I thought he was; I miss the relationship that I thought we had–meanwhile, I’m pretty sure he doesn’t give a damn about me–don’t think he ever did.
I remember there was a guy who posted on this site who said that there are some women that you marry and others that you f**k, and as unacceptable as that sentiment is to me, I think there are a lot of men who think that way, and I think that that is what my ‘ex’ thought about me.
Thanks for sharing your story with me; it really helped me put the abuse in perspective. 🙂
sugarland
fear not, I don’t know any men like that. Men (and women) who say stuff like:
“Men always prefer younger women”. “Women are only interested in an ugly man if he’s rich” “All women over x years are desperate dried up prunes” are not worth your time and energy. I wouldn’t give them the time of day except it’s annoying that some might actually believe them and live their life accordingly (ie in fear and self-loathing).
When they chuck out these generalisations, it’s something they personally believe despite any evidence to the contrary, and they can’t comprehend that others don’t believe or act the same way. They’re the ones who’ll bugger off when their wife gets breast cancer, or leave their husband when his business fails. And justify it cos men are this and women are that. Don’t get rattled by them. They need not have anything to do with you.”Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked.”
I know it’s hard not to (I’ve been emotionally and phyiscally abused by an ex too), but by analysing the whys and wherefores of it, you are giving them too much credit.