When I reflect on the times when I’ve thought that I could plunge into a relationship and believing promises without truly knowing someone, or even when I skipped even the most basics of relationship etiquette and was involved with the guy with a girlfriend, I recognise that I’m guilty of taking shortcuts at things that I didn’t actually know the ins and outs of the ‘long way round’. It would be one thing if I was taking a shortcut that actually generated the desired result and caused me to ‘end up’ with the relationship I wanted, but the shortcuts I used to take led to me ending up on the long road of pain.
Cutting corners on Very Important Stuff can not only cost you dearly but may cause you to ‘shave off’ vital processes or information that are critical to the quality/success of the result. The period of time after you first meet someone is the discovery phase where you’re ideally discovering the facts about one another. Unfortunately, if you’ve been caught out by assumptions that remained assumptions that you treated as facts, or by Future Faking or Fast Forwarding, it means that something has gone very awry during the discovery phase and that you may assume that you know people sooner than you do and that you don’t need to go through all of this ‘rigamarole’.
Why actually get to know someone when you could be naked, fantasising, or just making sh*t up as you go along?
The idea of a shortcut is that it’s supposed to be a shorter alternative route.
On the surface, the shortcuts we attempt to take in dating and relationships (or acquiring our self-esteem from others) are ‘short’ so we can convince ourselves that we know someone or feel deeply connected even if we only met them a few short hours or days ago. In fact, we can do this with people we haven’t met.
We might not think anything of the fact that we don’t really know anything about someone’s core values and how they vibe with our own because we think that we’re going to get on ‘just fine’ because of common interests, or our ‘feelings’, or the connection. It’s this idea that if X exists then Y must too even though it’s completely untrue. We think we know what’s coming next, not because we have any true experience of the person but because it’s just what we think and predict based on our thinking.
And therein lies the problem. The fact that we might think that we can take this shortcut assumes that we’re aware of what the long route is, but if we’re taking a shortcut on something as crucial as getting to know someone and our emotional investment, this in itself would suggest that we’re not really aware of what’s involved. Or….we might actually think that the shortcut is the standard ‘journey’.
When you take shortcuts, you ride with assumptions, you focus on superficial qualities and values, and effectively try to cram in feelings, expectations and experiences that are more akin to a relationship that hasn’t been cobbled together.
It’s actually not entirely about the length of time per se, although if it’s a very short period of time, or you haven’t met, or what you’ve been doing with the time doesn’t really leave room for getting to know one another, the time or lack of it is certainly going to be very influential.
The problem is thinking that you could actually build a substantial relationship without the substance or with faux substance built on assumptions and the like.
It’s illogical to believe that you could skip over the discovery phase of due diligence and still expect to wind up with a substantial relationship. It’s like expecting to win the lottery without playing the numbers or to buy your home without doing the paperwork and paying the money.
It may even be that you’re thinking that you could skip this stage, get them to commit to the relationship you have in mind and then do the discovery phase and if you find anything you don’t like, you can get them to change it, because in your mind they’ve already agreed to the relationship so if they’ve got something that’s impacting what they’ve agreed, they need to get rid of it.
Of course you’re ignoring that you’ve cut a relationship deal without the information to make the deal. Sometimes you’re making a deal with someone who hasn’t got a relationship bean to contribute or is actually still ‘in contract’ with someone else.
But then as I was thinking about this whole ‘shortcuts’ issue, it made me question whether a relationship in the fullest sense of the word is what we’re really looking for when we opt for what tend to end up being painful shortcuts? Think about it:
If you’re taking a shortcut that’s based on dodgy thinking about what relationships involve, then you might not be looking for the relationship that you think you’re looking for. You’re looking for a relationship, it’s just that based on your shortcut and your pattern of thinking and behaviour, you’re actually going to end up with an unhealthy relationship. You’re going to end up with something that speaks to your pattern.
This comes back to the self-fulfilling prophecy and examining what you truly believe because taking shortcuts is wanting to achieve the result without going through the process.
It’s the same with trying to increase your self-esteem via other people – wanting to feel better about yourself without actually doing the work to feel better about yourself and instead latching on to people for validation.
Now either you don’t want what you say you want or there is something ‘off’ with your masterplan i.e. your thinking and behaviour with regards to dating/relationships or even yourself that you’re as yet unwilling to reevaluate and change course on. It’s got nothing to do with how ‘good enough’ you are and everything to do with your choices and the thinking behind them.
You might feel like you’re bashing your head off a brick wall in spite of what feels like increased efforts because you’re engaging in relationship insanity where you carry the same beliefs, baggage, and behaviour plus possibly engaging with the same or similar people in different packages while expecting different results – trying to be the exception to the rule.
You’re for instance, seeking a relationship where you’re ‘loved’ but has it occurred to you to examine what you’re actually looking for and what being ‘loved’ and a relationship looks like? I used to think I was looking for love – turned out I was ‘Daddy Hunting’ and looking for a mix of my father packed up with the stuff I’d decided I wanted out of a relationship, which wasn’t much other than attention, being loved, and height…
This is when you have to say to yourself, What if what I’m thinking and doing isn’t working for me?
It’s not about right vs wrong – it’s about acknowledging where sticking with a pattern of thinking and behaviour isn’t working for you.
The alternative to taking the time to get to know someone and to consider the bread and butter stuff like shared values and the landmarks of healthy relationships isn’t to take little or no time and just to make it up as you go along or hope that somewhere between getting laid, sending a few texts, hinting, pleading and rumination that you’re Ideal Relationship ™ is suddenly going to materialise.
Relationships take work (not hard labour) so if you won’t put the work in at the beginning to do the due diligence, you can be sure of hard labour soon enough, but if you do put in the work, you’ll opt out of what isn’t working for you and reap the benefits when you’re invested in something mutual.
Your thoughts?
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Natalie…damn. Every time I read your blog, I have a million “ah ha” moments! Today’s blog is no exception. I’ve realized (after my last failed experience) that I’ve been a consistent short cut taker in my “relationships”. All have ended terribly with me left in pain and doubting myself as a date/relationship worthy woman. I’m finally taking the much needed time and self reflection to learn about how I function. How and what I think about men and entering a relationship. Asking myself what my needs are…my expectations. I don’t think I’ve ever even thought about asking those questions before. I’ve been looking for love in all the wrong ways. Looking for validation…looking for daddy. Wow. Self work is a b*tch, but it’s the only way things can change. I want change. I want a real, no short cut relationship. I want to have my eyes wide open and be authentically in the present. The work continues.
Lady Lisa… I think we are on the same path of self discovery… Better late than never so they say 🙂
Nat, I am so glad I found your book & site.. It has been a god send for me … I would still be lost in la-la land doing the same thing expecting different results.. Thank you, thank you again…
Lady Lisa I’ve been there too. For me its still a work in progress and I’m not sure if I’ll ever come to the end of it but all I know is its better now then it was a few years ago. I look at every aspect of my life differently now and while the road hasn’t been easy (its been down right hard) like you my journey continues.
Wishing you the best with yours.
It’s so funny that everytime I get the Baggage Reclaim email, the subject line jumps out at me… the topic is always very pertinent to my life and situation.
Thanks for these.
So what is the “work” involved in getting to know someone? What actions should a person take to know someone and how long should it take? I am a short cutter trying to figure put how to do it RIGHT. I want to take the long way around but I get swept off my feet. How does a girl state grounded? Thanks for the article!
Get to know the person slowly: once a week for a month, then two days, etc. No sex until you’re in a relationship. Take his lead: let him introduce you to his family, then its your turn, when you meet his friends he can meet yours, stuff like that. Or that’s the way I understand it anyway! Hope this helps!
I think you’re right on! I loved the part where you turned it back on us, saying “it made me question whether a relationship in the fullest sense of the word is what we’re really looking for.” I reached the realization recently that all my short, quick getting-to-know-you dates and mini romances have all gone bust because really, I know deep down that I’m just still not ready for a relationship. But I’ve been going about as though I am. And ultimately it IS what I want, I just have more work to do. More learning of me before I can really take the time to try and learn someone else.
Great post Natalie! Thanks so much for this!
Right on girl! I just recently had this conversation with someone that was insisting on rushing the discovery phase and wanting a full on relationship after only a few short weeks. He finally lost interest because as he put it, “he was used to being chased by women” and I was not matching his enthuasim or the ones that were before me. HMMM…. What ever happened to getting to know someone before you declare that they are THE ONE. What happened to the art of dating? What is the rush?
I was in a two year relationship with someone who shortcutted me.Fast forwarding,skipping over all the important stuff,red flags going up left right and centre but i didnt see them as i was a like oh wow this guy is sooo into me we have such a bond yadda yadda yadda..and then a two year relationship with all the hot and cold behaviour in and out..breakup, back together then breakup again.Him moving onto his next relationship a week later.I was left with a two year headache wondering why i didnt see the shortcuts when i KNEW deep in my gut that i was being shortcutted.I absolutely love Nats advice on dating being a discovery phase its so true i mean as Nat says “wheres the fire” no need to shortcut if your truly looking for a healthy Emotional Relationship.
I’ve had a couple of short cut relationships. One in particular was with a guy I had a crush on for 10 years. He was extremely handsome and friendly ( in an aloof kind of way) , so much so it intimidated me whenever I was around him. I was smitten before we ever went on a date, so when we finally did start to go out ( I was pinching myself…could I be this lucky?), I allowed the fast forwarding to happen. Within 2 months he was spending most of his nights at my house. Waking up next to him was like a dream come true, I was still pinching myself. But, the conflicts starting popping up. I found out he sold pot, not small amounts but pounds of it, felony amounts. I also found out he was an alcoholic. He was still numbing his past hurts. I started to see my fantasy crumble. He was affectionate and wanted to be close, and I liked this so much, I tried to ignore the piling up of stuff I didn’t like. Well, drama started becoming more frequent, but he stayed. This was my hook also, he didn’t leave! ( my own abandonment issues?). He did, however start insulting me, and telling lies. It took me 6 months and falling into old dysfunctions to wise up. I opted out and broke it off….but it was hard. I was still so attracted to him, the good parts of him I still wanted, but the bad parts were so big they canceled out the good. We became passing friends down the road, but that was a disappointment as well. He is unhealthy emotionally, and even friendship with him was loaded with drama. I’m working so much on my own emotional health and growth( and have come quite far), I see his being stuck in his own emotional quicksand as really unattractive, no matter how blue his eyes were and how pretty his hair was. The last time I ran into him in a public place, he said something rude and derogatory to me. I blew off his apology that came later by text. He recently sent me another one saying I was very good at the silent grudge game. He doesn’t get it. It’s not a grudge….but my unwillingness to participate at all. Elvis has left the building.
I tried to slow down a bit in the relationship that came after pretty boy, but that didn’t work out either. It’s taken me a while to figure it out, that even though I had a healthier approach to the next relationship, I still tried to have it with someone who wasn’t emotionally healthy (it wasn’t apparent right away, but the red flags were there if I paid better attention). He seemed normal a first, but ended up being an injured little boy who felt sorry for himself. It wouldn’t matter how great I was, or how right I did everything, if you attempt all this healthiness on someone who isn’t….you still get a failed or dysfunctional relationship. Moral of my story…..getting your own ship in order makes no difference if you jump onto the next sinking ship you encounter. And…some ships have slower leaks than others, so pay attention. The discovery phase is meant to find the leaks, and not ignore them.
Selkie,
“I still tried to have it with someone who wasn’t emotionally healthy (it wasn’t apparent right away, but the red flags were there if I paid better attention). He seemed normal a first, but ended up being an injured little boy who felt sorry for himself. It wouldn’t matter how great I was, or how right I did everything, if you attempt all this healthiness on someone who isn’t….you still get a failed or dysfunctional relationship. Moral of my story…..getting your own ship in order makes no difference if you jump onto the next sinking ship you encounter. And…some ships have slower leaks than others, so pay attention. The discovery phase is meant to find the leaks, and not ignore them.”
I could not have said it better! This is exactly what happened to me. After some VERY uncomfortable refection, and a large dose of hindsight, I had to ask myself how emotionally healthy I am really, if I overlook red flags and pursue a relationship with someone who isn’t emotionally healthy themselves??
Hi Gina,
So, for me, I was used to outrageous red flags, ones that smacked me in the face, the quiet ones with this guy slipped past. One example, early on he said about his neighbors who’s kids were playing loudly, ” I don’t know why men want wives and kids, they seem like so much trouble.” Then he looked at me and said, “I don’t mean you, its different with you.” My spidey senses were poking me, but my heart was saying, “He feels different about you, you ARE the exception.” Duh. He was telling me who he was. I missed (more like, ignored)the red flag. There were lots of other little comments like this, that he glossed over after he realized he said them out loud. It was always, oh, not with you, I don’t mean you. What he meant was “I don’t mean you….yet, but you might become a burden to me down the road.” My approach was healthier, but yes, like you I was still missing the wood through the trees.
Hey Selkie,
Girl! Don’t be so hard on yourself! You are only human! I am too embarrassed to mention the GIGANTIC red flags that I overlooked! If I did, then you would probably say, “Dang, what the eff were YOU thinking Gina?!”
I went to see my counselor yesterday after work. I prefer seeing a man because he is able to give me insight into how men think and feel. You see, I am scared that my pattern of picking EUMs is so ingrained that I will not be able to break it. He had me write a list of the qualities that I was looking for in a life long partner. He then said that as I was getting out enjoying life and meeting different types of men, to keep that list in my mind when talking to and getting to know them. If they did not meet the criteria (i.e., demonstrated red flags), then weed them out. The thing about dealing with EUM/FFs is that we learn (hopefully) what doesn’t work. Also reading Nat’s blog has helped me to understand myself better, and change my way of thinking so that I can attract an emotionally healthy man. Once I attract him, I plan on snatching him up–after I’ve given ample time for the discover phase of course 🙂
Selkie — such an eloquent response to Nat’s post. The boat analogy is spot on. I have a feeling that most of us have been guilty at one time or another of jumping onto one that has slow or fast leaks. I can tell you I have at least 4 times in my life. Trying to make different choices now! Hugs to all of you here opening eyes to see the truth and making the changes we need to do to get what we want.
Thanks Jr. It has finally started to make sense to me. I kicked myself for 8 months trying to figure out what I did wrong. I ignored red flags. Simple. He was who he was before he showed up in my life. He just had a fresh canvas to paint his miseries on (me)…then somehow they morphed into me causing the miseries? Nope. I was a reminder to how lost HE was, thats all. What a welcome epiphany.
I just wanted to say Selkie that I’m so glad that you finally understand why that last relationship didn’t work with the manipulative weasel. I’ve been hoping you would fully absorb the lessons and learn from the insights – you have. Kudos.
Thx Natalie. And they say you can’t teach an old dog new tricks. It’s been a little bit of an epiphany for me, and what a relief. I’m getting tired of this baggage around my neck. It’s time to let it fall off instead of trying to learn to walk normal with it dragging behind me.
brava, selkie. well said. thank you.
What a great article Nat. This couldn’t come at a better time for me, as I find myself in a situation where I’ve started to daydream and even consider the ‘shortcuts’ you state above after finally moving past the AC ex.
Sidenote: After a tough few months, the NC really worked and I have much better clarity about the exAC/EUM (I did break NC once this summer, to let him know my grandfather had passed as he had met and liked him. He said some kind things–over text–but it was a confirmation he’s immature and couldn’t handle things; he was too much of a coward to phone me back that evening about it! The jerk is too afraid of emotion and I will never be with someone who thinks talking about things is ‘needy’!) Haven’t had contact since and I feel great about my decision.
Well, long story short, I started doing things for me and in the process met a really cool guy who also has some common interests (looking to learn more about his values) and thus far seems like a pretty decent person. Unfortunately, he lives on the total opposite side of the country (and here in the US, that’s a big difference!) so we have kept in touch here and there. We both said that if we lived in the same place we would have asked each other out, and I am proud of myself in that I did not hookup with him or do anything physical when we initially met. I wanted to get to know him instead and I wanted his respect…and to my surprise, he didn’t think that was weird(!) It’s so great to not have my heads in the clouds, because it was a way of life for me before. But it’s worth it to put in the work and keep up my self-esteem and boundaries. I am trying not to hold expectations in the current situation I find myself in, because this article is so right it is a “discovery phase”.
I think this new guy is exciting, whether a friend or potentially something more, and I don’t want to ruin this or any future situations by unrealistic expectations, irrational assumptions, or emotional guessing. There’s been talk of visiting one another, but I’m trying to take things slow and get to know him 🙂 So far, he seems like a really positive and kind person, and that is SO refreshing! When you’re learning about another person, why rush? In the words of Nat, ‘let it unfold’. If you keep yourself grounded and maintain a life and sense of self, the rest follows.
I don’t know, Phoenix, can you even do a discovery phase with someone who lives on the other side of the continent?
Dani asked what the ‘work’ is of getting to know someone. I honestly can’t say I’ve taken a real opportunity to do this. I thought I was going ‘slow’ with the exAC because the first handful of dates was spread out over six months b/c he hadn’t yet moved to my city, but really, that meant we had known each other not even six full days, but six dates, before I was staying over and agreeing to go on vacation with him.
I think the ‘work’ is getting to see someone when they aren’t in date mode. Date mode can last an evening, or even a whole long weekend or few days; when there are long enough breaks in between being together, each person has time to let it all hang out on their own time, and be on ‘good behaviour’ for couple-time. You get to know someone when you start seeing enough of them that they are just being themselves, and aren’t putting on their Sunday best for you all the time, nor you for them. You get to see how it is when you want to do something that they don’t. You get to see them handling stress. Handling conflict, etc.
I just don’t think you can do that in a situation that is long-distance before there is a relationship. A dear friend of mine just had a break up with someone that she’s been ‘with’ for four years, though the first three years involved a lot of one or the other person being away. In some ways, their relationship only lasted as long as it did because it was years before the frictions of day-to-day interaction were introduced into the mix.
Personally, I don’t have that long to wait. Getting to know someone takes long enough without putting plane-ride distances between me and them.
I suppose you may be right. Perhaps I am being naive to think I could get to know someone who lives so far away 🙁 Should I drop contact with him altogether?? I enjoy talking to him and I may be doing a degree out there actually (which has no relation to the situation, just in that I may actually be moving since my career path is stagnant where I am, and I am feeling burnout in my current location.)
I guess I should try and find someone in the closer vicinity–and I definitely try to put myself out there–but so far this guy has been the person I’m most interested in. Oh well :/
PR
Long distance can work. But you need to have a plan and I wouldn’t do it for more than a year. After than one of you has to move.
Previously I would have avoided LDRs because of the dangers, now I would avoid them for a more positive reason. if I like someone *drum roll* I would miss him if I couldn’t see him a few times a week.
You have slowness inbuilt into your relationship already so I say go ahead and let him visit if you think it could work out. Mind you, the sex question is awkward unless he stays in a hotel.
Just beware that you’re not living in a fantasy or avoiding being in a genuine relationship.
Hi Phoenix, just wanted to say I am struggling with something similar myself, I’m not sure I have any answers, but I have been wondering the same thing- if there IS a prospect of meeting in the future (i.e. living in the same place) then surely, getting to know someone slowly slowly over chats, with (obviously) nothing physical could work? I mean in a way it could be the ultimate ‘slow discovery phase’ since sex isn’t clouding things and you talk to them at all different times, not just when they are out on a date, making an effort to be nice, etc.
But then as Magnolia says “the ‘work’ is getting to see someone when they aren’t in date mode….You get to know someone when you start seeing enough of them that they are just being themselves, and aren’t putting on their Sunday best for you all the time, nor you for them. You get to see how it is when you want to do something that they don’t. You get to see them handling stress. Handling conflict, etc.”
This made me stop and think. Yeah, you may be getting to know them- in terms of their past, their attitudes, their relationship values- but you aren’t seeing them when they’ve got a parking ticket, late for work, in a stressful situation with a family member or trying to balance commitments, i.e. living the normal, busy lives that all adults do. So its only a fraction of the picture…
I am finding myself in a similar tricky situation, where I am getting ever closer to someone in a different country.
Although I don’t spend a lot of time thinking about it (trying anyway!) it does kind of infuriate me that of all the people I’ve met recently, he’s the one I get on best with. It makes me wonder if this is JUST to do with me, and a sign I don’t really want a relationship/ my emotional unavailability. Or if it is actually possible that lasting things come out of these ‘technologically-enabled’ liaisons. Not sure!
Phoenix – just glancing through the posts here and yours popped right off the screen.
All I can offer you here is first-hand advice from an experience I’m finally in the end-stages of mourning (thank God :))
BE VERY CAREFUL with long-distance relationships. Without the benefit of being able to read his body language you are at an automatic disadvantage. It is an incredibly important part of communication and something that you won’t have the benefit of witnessing when you’re talking on the phone.
And remember, you know as much about this man as he’s telling you. Unfortunately, until you’re part of his everyday life and spending time together (as opposed to “feeling the love” from hundreds of miles away while you hug your cat), you’ll never really know the “true” man.
I don’t mean to be a wet blanket here and I’m sorry if that’s what this sounds like but I, too, put all my trust in the hands of a man who was supposedly miserably married and getting a divorce and guess what? It never happened! hahaha, yep, he had fun with me until he realized he was in too deep and couldn’t make good on all his empty promises so he slowly disappeared, reappeared, etc., etc. until I finally blew him off completely and ignored his last email and phone call. The damage his lies caused was unbelievable, mostly due to the fact that he was such a great talker and said all the right things. When it came down to putting his words into action, the real him came out.
Please be careful. If meet-ups are planned and never materialize, kick him to the curb. It’s a red flag you’ll be glad you paid attention to.
Good luck. 🙂
Thanks Debbie! That is some good advice right there…and I had to laugh when you mentioned a cat, because I do have one 🙂 This guy isn’t married, but I will definitely be going into any communication with eyes open!
Hey Phoenix,
Are you sure that you want a relationship? Other side of the country is really not helpful to get to know someone. I did the long distance thing once or twice and it did NOT work lol!
The last ex who I was with ( we ended things via my end, I was not in love, which was just as well..) just started dating someone from another state. I thought when I found out “Hmm, that would work for him” the key word being for him. He travels a lot, lots of freq flyer miles. Our relationship crumbled due to him compartmentalizing me into his weekends but he was great with turning on a show in the beginning. It is just 5 or 6 months in, when the newness wears off and you keep trying to have some meaningful intimate moments that are not just engineered by HIM, that you realize that the substance is not what you need.
I think the problem I have with this discovery phase is; I *try* to discover! I really do! But some of these men can be so sneaky! Like my last ex, I am now discovering, did all sorts of dodgy moves and I had no idea. I am just kind of finding out now, months later. I am not really hurt because I was not attracted to him really at the end, but I am a bit annoyed. We did not do the NC because it was not a big drama to break up but now I am regretting being FB friends still because I am alerted to his occasionally annoying comments, I now know that he is dating this women and ( I admit, I quickly stalked, not out of hurt but just this curious feeling that he might have met her when we were dating and…he did, in fact they were posting each other when we were having problems, semi flirty posts *ick*!) and he pokes me a lot for attention. I kind of wish that I could defriend him but we have mutual freinds and such…it is really annoying. I have one ex who is on my FB and it is all cool and he is nothing but respectful. Yes I know, I was wrong to stalk but I am glad that I did it; note to self, the “discovery” phase sometimes can come a bit late, like AFTER the relationship lol ( but weakly *ahem*)
Oh boy, my comment just got erased so let me try a rewrite here…
@dancingqueen: Ick! I can’t imagine dealing with the awkwardness of an ex on Facebook, and the drama and silliness of that website is what got me off of it. The people that care about me email, call, text, send cards, or hang out in person. I don’t need Facebook nor do I miss it! But if you do like FB, why not consider un-friending the AC ex? Even if you have mutual friends, they’re not going to ostracize/reject you just because you took him off your friend list. You don’t even owe him an explanation–just do it! (Or, you can hide him from your news feed so he doesn’t pop up, or limit his access/make a limited profile so he can’t post to your wall and add drama…hey, whatever works.)
I have thought a lot about the question, ‘do you want a relationship?’ and the answer is yes. Even though the answer is yes, however, that does not mean I am in a rush to get there, that I will pursue something without my boundaries or self-esteem in place, or that I am going to pin all my hopes and dreams on the first half-decent guy who comes around.
So what’s wrong with keeping in touch with a nice guy? He has done nothing thus far that is a red flag, and I treat the situation primarily as a friend one since I am realistic about the circumstances. It’s just nice to meet a cool guy and keep in touch. If we continue to get to know one another, I may even visit out there for a weekend (and no, not to stay with him directly, and not as a hookup, and not in any sort of other situation that would compromise my values!) I also still intend to keep an open mind and go on dates if and when they come up.
I’d love to know Nat’s thoughts on keeping a balance. It seems that all too often after ‘seeing the light’ and becoming empowered that many of us become paranoid or worried that an AC or EUM is lurking underneath every guy’s exterior. Surely not every man is a sociopath! I think it’s nice to get to know someone, friend or more, and don’t know why others discriminate or discourage this simply because of distance. Obviously, keeping a clear mind and being aware of who another person is key, and if that person did in fact do something that raises a flag then that would be the moment you would reconsider the situation!
I can’t help commenting on this particular post Phoenix because it could have been me that posted it.
I too was at a crossroads about moving and lo and behold, Mr. Right (in so many ways, or so I thought) came along and lived right where I wanted to relocate to. How lucky could I get, right?! lol. He encouraged me to sell my house and move south and boy am I glad I never did that but the scary part is, I actually put it on the market after he lulled me into a sense of security with the promises of “ever after” that he knew would never happen.
Talk about fate being on my side. Yes, he was the cool guy too; we had more in common than anyone I’d ever met but like I said earlier, all I ever heard was words on the telephone. Nothing physical involved at all. We started out as friends online (not a dating site either btw, it was CL, of all places on the rants and raves section :)) A chance meeting that seemed so incredibly “right” at the time turned out to be nothing more than a troll who found an innocent woman who fell for his charms. At this point, I’m positive I’m not the first and I certainly won’t be the last. For all you know, you may be in the same type of situation.
Please Phoenix, set up a meeting and if he comes through, keep your eyes open and try not to let your heart rule over reality. With any luck, he’ll be the real deal and a second, third and fourth meetup will happen but please don’t relocate your entire life based on an internet crush.
Please.
@Debbie- I have met the guy and hung out with him before. We didn’t meet online and I don’t believe in dating websites (I’m sure it works for some people, but I know myself and know it’s not for me!) So far he seems like a cool guy and I am just keeping communication open and seeing where it goes. I’m also open to dating other people, so at this point I’m just letting things unfold as they do.
@ dancingqueen: I completely agree with PhoenixRises. Unfriend him TODAY. It painful to unfriend but it worse staying and seeing unwanted and unneeded FB updates. (Trust me I speak from experience and I‘ve been there with my last AC) It was super painful for me to read and see his lovey dovey stuff with his new girl (which he hooked up when we were together, BTW). So really I do know what you are going through. Staying friends on FB is a form of validation seeking that Nat talks about and the pokes on his part are cruel and weird. Why would you want to put up with that from him? AC is a true sense.
As for mutual friends, if they are “true” friends they will continue to be friends even after you unfriend him. If not, consider it good ridden and they are just not worth it.
Natalie, your descriptions of dating as a discovery phase, getting to know someone including primary core values, not secondary common interests, and letting things unfold before making assumptions has changed my life. In my past relationships, I knew them from a work environment sometimes for many years and jumped to the conclusion that because they were intelligent and we agreed regarding work issues, there was a vibe/connection, thus we were soul mates. It was like a long way to the short cut. Disaster. My assumptions were so off. What has been interesting about the online dating thing and meeting perfect strangers is that I don’t much care about how important they are at work. Sometimes there have been common interests which assists in the convo but I’m listening for shared values, now that I have some! Most of all, I know that getting to really know somebody isn’t going to happen on the first date, second, or third even if there is that connection. I’m not chasing the za za zu feeling. And I don’t have to have sex until I want to, the “third date rule” notwithstanding. That’s poppycock for me. This is such a different way of thinking and being. It is exhilarating. Finally at 53, I’m getting that I’m the driver of my life. You are amazing Nat…truly grateful beyond words. I can’t imagine that I was an OW. Thank you all that helped me through the dark, dark, dark moments.
“In my past relationships, I knew them from a work environment sometimes for many years and jumped to the conclusion that because they were intelligent and we agreed regarding work issues, there was a vibe/connection, thus we were soul mates.”
@Runnergirl: We may be living parallel lives. 🙂 Amazing how many times the work thing above has happened to me. My cheating, SOB ex-AC being the primary example. I did not even bother getting to know him as I thought I did (from work). I made so many mistakes with him. I literally cringe. I slept with him on the first date, ignored red flags, fell for his crumbs and worst of all I let him put me down and treat me like dirt when he was stressed and annoyed. WOW!
Only plus from that whole experience got me to Nat and BR. YEAH!!!!! First thing I implemented was NC and I stuck with it. No exceptions on NC, No friendship, No BS.
I also agree with everything you say about online dating and the way you are approaching it. Pretty much mirroring it. Are we doppelgangers???? LOL!
Interesting things when I met a guy online and we start chatting I now automatically bring up with them that I don’t give a shite about job, education and the other superficial stuff and what I really need to know from them is if they know what “care, trust and respect” means. 🙂 I also keep my eyes and ears very open. Some have gone off screaming into the night. Good riddens.
I’m more interested in the one’s that stick around. I’m not chasing the za za zu feeling either thought it is nice when you have it. Hugs Runnergirl. Let me know how it goes. 🙂
How I have changed since I found BR. Thank you, Nat.
Yes yes yes!
You have to find out about each other, without future faking or raising expectations beyond what’s appropriate to how well you know each other. Examples:
Not, I want you to have my babies, but, how do you feel about children?
not, I can see myself married to you, but do you see yourself married?
Not, we will do x, y, z but how do you feel about x, y,x?
Not, this is great, we have so much in common, you’re the one! but, what do you think makes a good relationship?
It’s an adventure finding out this stuff, yes it’s work like Nat says but not hard labour. Yes it takes more accountability, honesty and responsibility than just trusting to luck, or believing that you’re in a rom com or some tragic love story, or just letting him jerk you around.
Keep it real!
Grace – you are SO right! I wish I had this knowledge a couple months ago. My ex told me he wanted to have my baby and that I was the 1st person he’d ever met where he felt that way, he could see us married and he would spend X dollars on a ring. I wish we had taken things slower because I would have seen his true colors and wouldn’t have fell so hard. He asked for a “breather” 6 weeks ago and never came back!
Lori, they can say anything (usually what we want to hear!) to get into our pants!!! My ex AC was calling me his wife and talked about kids etc…We need actions, not empty promises!!! Thanks to BR and Natalie we are getting wiser day by day:-)
As long as we actually listen to the answers, Grace! I phrased everything the “right” way with the exAC but when it sounded like his voice cracked a little, like he was choking something down, when he was like, “I’m interested in children” – I just ignored. “I could do marriage” he said, not “I hope to be married and think marriage is important.” As long as we don’t discard what we discover!!
Magnolia,
“I could do marriage.” Hahahaha!!!! What IS THAT?!
Same inflection as “I could go for Thai” or “Angelina Jolie or Megan Fox…..I would do both.”
Neandrethals, these. Girls, keep your eyes and ears open.
“It’s not about right vs wrong – it’s about acknowledging where sticking with a pattern of thinking and behaviour isn’t working for you.”
Nat, you just told me all about myself and my behavioral patterns in this post! It is uncomfortable to acknowledge, but I need to really pay attention to what you are saying and ruminate on the message. I keep attracting the same type of guy, but in a different package and I desperately want to break this pattern. In essence, I have been looking for love in all the wrong places, but now I am taking time out looking for a relationship (with a man) in order to focus on being in a relationship with myself. Reading your blog has helped me more than you’ll ever know! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!
I’m just now putting together an application for a grant to keep working as a postdoctoral researcher after this short-term contract.
I’ve decided to try to stay here, though I’ve only had less than two months to see how I like it. I realize I’m choosing to work with some people after only a short discovery phase, but I am comfortable that *to the degree that I could possibly know these people*, they have been reliable, kind and supportive. My other option was to try to apply *blind* to new universities.
I realize now what my networking should have been, or could have been. It could have been building and cultivating relationships with people *before* I was in the position of wanting to make a move, and then I would have discovery phase info on a number of different options. I will now apply that insight to all my future networking – i.e. not just be thrilled to be at a wine and cheese with so-and-so who did that renowned thing, but to know whether so-and-so is good to work with, is she supportive of her people, is she reliable, etc. and to take the opportunities to prove myself the same in relationships that matter to me.
Life is full of situations where you don’t get to choose who you are working with, sitting next to, or attending family functions with.
Why not take the time, the luxury, even, of really ‘test-driving’ for a while with candidates for the person that could get to be with you for the rest of your life?
Brilliant comment Magnolia. Aaamen! I’m not great at the hob nobbing / networking thing so your comment was also a boot up the bum reminder about getting out of my comfort zone.
Oh Natalie! When you said “Why actually get to know someone when you could be naked, fantasising, or just making sh*t up as you go along?”
I thought Guilty as Charged! Guilty Guilty Guilty. When Mr Perfect Paramedic rocked up with his Future Faking as Fast Forwarding, I loved it because I am basically laaaayzeeeee. In my defence ( you knew it was coming) I hadn’t dated for nearly 20 years and didn’t have a clue what I was doing. However, I am not a stupid woman and I knew deep down that it/something “wasn’t right” but you are so correct. It made it so easy for me and I loved all the fake love care and attention being heaped upon me. Of course it all backfired and I am suffering, really suffering now. More than I thought possible. I will never make that mistake again and I want to thank you for making things so much clearer in my muddled sad little head.
PR, I am in the same boat as you. My latest, and will be my last, online friend is seemingly a down-to-earth regular guy. I’m in the US, like you, and he’s about 8-900 miles south of me. It’s about six weeks we’ve been talking. Fortunately, I’ll meet him soon, next month, (supposedly). In the meantime, we are enjoying emails and phone conversations (long ones). I know I have to take it slowly at a snail’s pace, since we haven’t met. After a big let-down with another guy( met online also) I am scrutinizing every word, voice inflection, joke, timing of his comments. I’ve told him to slow things down as his emails are overly gushy, i.e, “I’ll treat you like the beautiful queen that you are,” etc. He lightened up briefly and then went right back. I’ve told him to slow down because I know I tend to be needy and want a healthy relationship so much, and his saying the things he does makes me feel even more vulnerable, and I’m so afraid of making another mistake with the wrong guy. As I was discussing him with my therapist, she helped me to see that his behavior is who he is. I cannot change him, and that’s not what I should be focusing on. That it matters little what he says especially at this stage. What is important is how I perceive what he is saying, what I do with it in my own mind. It is up to me to do the slowing down and thinking about WHAT I WANT. Is this for me? It is up to me to avoid fantasizing. He can fast forward and future fake until the cows come home, but if it is not effective on me why should I worry. We are separate individuals. I cannot make him over, especially since he has been married 3 times. To me that’s a red flag, even though he may be a genuinely good person. It says to me that he tends to go overboard too easily also and I don’t want to be a victim of his machinations, which clearly appear to be harmless, but still…. I, myself, am fast-forwarding also because if I were not I wouldn’t be so worried about getting in too deep with someone I don’t know. It’s going to take quite some time for us to establish a relationship if at all. I’ve learned that you don’t even begin to know a person until you’ve been in their presence. Face to face, there is sooo much more you can observe about a person that is impossible to know in LDR. Right now I’m happy as a lark thinking he may be MR. Right, how many times now? But then again, I thought the same thing of the last one and that was only 3 months ago. I’m making a solemn promise to myself that whatever happens this time I am through with looking to meet someone online. I don’t mean to be rehashing all of this on BR, because the subject of online dating has been dissected over and over again. I’ve brought it up here in response to your post, Phoenix. I haven’t said anything earth shattering to cause you to have an epifany which will lead you to realize that perhaps you should be careful. However, my own experience dictates that I’m walking a tightrope and can very easily fall off if I don’t maintain good common sense, and apply all I’ve been learning on BR. I wish you luck, as I wish it for myself. I hope we both will remember that it will take much more than luck to be successful. Most importantly if not, we will love, honor and respect ourselves.
Tinkerbell
“He can fast forward and future fake until the cows come home,” Er, no, he can’t (unless you let him). Fast forwarding and future faking point to a character defect REGARDLESS of how you react to it.”it matters little what he says”. Of course it matters, if it doesn’t matter why are you spending so much time listening to it?
This future faking, fast forwarding means he’s careless, prone to fantasy, loves the sound of his own rhetoric, unrealistic, irresponsible, hasn’t learned from his previous mistakes, immature, doesn’t understand what a relationship is, prefers phone calls, emails and big declarations to dealing with someone in everyday, mundane real life. If the boyfriend – who I have known for nearly a year and who I have seen several times a week in that time – said he would treat me like a beautiful queen, I’d think he’d started taking crack. Never mind someone I haven’t even met.
“Right now I’m happy as a lark thinking he may be MR. Right.” How can you say that, you haven’t even met him?
I don’t know your therapist but either a) he/she is enabling you or b) you’re misinterpreting what’s he/she is suggesting so that you can continue this or c) you’re not being entirely honest and he/she is not getting the full picture of what is going on here.
I can see it plain as day, but then I lived it. You’re still dreaming.
grace,
you nailed my last relationshit boyfriend! Wow! “This future faking, fast forwarding means he’s careless, prone to fantasy, loves the sound of his own rhetoric, unrealistic, irresponsible, hasn’t learned from his previous mistakes, immature, doesn’t understand what a relationship is, prefers phone calls, emails and big declarations to dealing with someone in everyday, mundane real life.” Perhaps except the phone calls & emails. The big baby wanted to crawl up my bum.
And Tinkerbell, mine was an aquaintance for years and I *thought* we proceeded at a reasonable pace. Guess what? He lined up someone new before we were over. In less than 3 weeks he was pouring out his love to his new princess. The next guy who acts like that gets flushed immediately!
Tinkerbell,
I am just confused; you are meeting these guys from such a long distance and you just talked about, a few posts ago, only cultivating them for attention (that was you right?) and not being ready for a close-by relationship because you feel uncomfortable because you gained some weight. You stated that you needed to get off line, so why are you still online?
Maybe I am remembering a totally different post and person, but if this is indeed you I don’t get coming on here, to work on yourself and your intimacy issues, only to then indulge in long distance correspondence with people you don’t know, when you yourself have stated that you use online dating for attention getting. That is kind of like continuing to date a married man and being on here; it is counter-productive and illogical. I hope that I am wrong and that was someone else, and I am not saying this to judge you I am just alerting you to your own disconnect…it makes little sense, right?
Tinkerbell, you can’t get in deep with a man you 1) don’t know 2) haven’t met so if you do get in too deep, it would actually be like getting in deep with *yourself* via your imagination. Or to put it more crudely, like getting in deep with an imaginary blow up doll with his face on it. Remember this the next time you get carried away. You need to get on with your life and remain in the *present*.
Tinkerbell, you never met him and already have a “heavy conversation” inside your head. Please let us know in one month time, when you actually going to meet him.
I had a date few years ago. I talked to this guy for of months on the phone (he was so intelligent and sophisticated). BUT when I met him, it was totally different story, he was odd, he did not match with my imagination (even I saw his picture in advance). I felt disappointed and cheated, but yet again, I blamed myself for “building a sand castle” in my head…I hope you are not going to be disappointed, all the best to you:-)
just on three months into a new relationship. I just blogged on this myself this week. Our mantra is ”baby steps”. Its about not rushing the process no matter how much we (both) are tempted too. Theres kids and exes and locations that all need consideration and time.
Absolutely true, you can’t shortcut any of this stuff.
This is the story of my last relationship to a tee. I had a massive crush on my boss that flared up into intense, burning desire. Embarrassing as this is to share, all I wanted was some physical affection, just some kisses, maybe just one night of passion, which I justified that after seven years of NOTHING after my divorce, it was even a miracle I was able to feel something again for somebody.
So I guess I didn’t really want a “relationship,” (even though I thought so at the time, I just wanted a reminder that I was still alive, still attractive and still desirable. And this is what I got from my ex. When he made advances towards me I was on the highest cloud nine possible!!
But… we weren’t really friends, we didn’t get to know each other, and therefore all of our intense lovemaking wasn’t going anywhere. My big mistake was trying to make a “real” relationship out of what was just a wonderful sexual fantasy that came true. It was doomed from the beginning, and it’s no wonder it didn’t last long at all.
What’s annoying is that it seems like the woman he replaced me with went through all the same short cuts as I did – although she apparently has more sticking power because they are still together a year later. Don’t know what her secret is – and no longer care. But I learned a lot from this experience, that’s for sure. No more short cuts for me if I want something real!!
I think I am in a place right now where I feel that it’s impossible to do due diligence on people.
I feel like everyone is a cauldron of secrets, unconscious darkness, irrational rage, and potential cruelty — the “slow cooker” type no less than the “fast forward” type.
My trust level, both with any potential future love interest, and in myself and my own discernment, is very low. So it feels like no matter what the trajectory, what the velocity, it’s all going to end up like the space shuttle Challenger.
ixnay-
its understandable to feel this way. and you should just let yourself feel it.
then, when you can, remember that people can also surprise us on the upside with their wisdom, compassion, understanding, and generosity. i know, right now it doesn’t feel true, but it is true.
the key here, i think, is for right now to forget about everyone else and work on trusting you. in the littlest, teeniest ways, through the smallest daily interactions, work on staying on your own side and acting on your own behalf, and on learning from mistakes and letting them go. if you aren’t making mistakes, you aren’t living, because that’s how we learn and grow. so try to accept that and be gentle with yourself.
right now you’re mad at you, and ok, maybe there is a thing or two that you could learn. but do you really deserve this much anger? no, certainly not. and really, do you deserve to direct any anger at you? NO!
be frustrated if that’s how you feel, but take the claws out of you. give yourself a break, and keep giving more breaks as you build up your trust. and imagine, just for a sec, that there are very happy and very likely outcomes other than challenger.
Cc – I love reading your posts. Your replies, especially, are so compassionate. I try to apply them to myself. Thank you. I know you must be a very, very kind and generous soul.
aw, doubtful,
thanks so much, that’s very kind. my replies might be ok, but i’m guessing my posts are a mixture of rage and pain! …hahaha…kidding…mostly.
Cc — well having rage and pain and not having that get in the way of your compassion says a lot about you. I hope you are able to extend some of that compassion to yourself, too, because I am certain you deserve it.
aw, doubtful. (wells up)
I never really thought of it as taking a short cut but you can be so desperate to end the pain a quick fix is very appealing.
When I look back, starting something with someone else whilst I was in a relationship was a short cut.The problem with not having your own house in order is when someone throws you a single crumb of attention it looks like a feast fit for a king.
Thanks to this site and reading other peoples experiences I am on the road to recovery but I still have flash backs and reminders.
Did anyone watch the itv drama ” Leaving ” ?
That was almost exactly what I went through,the feelings ,emotions and shear desperation in the end.
Good luck to anyone who is living that right now.x
It is very tempting to go the shortcut route as I am older, definitely feel time is running out and quality men are very few and far between in this region. However, I am keeping my spidey senses on high alert and not rushing into anything. Case in point: I allowed a group of folks from Vermont to stay at my house as a favor to a friend (I have a huge house ) during the first week of the semester. Except for one day trip into the backcountry I rarely saw them as I was super busy at work. One of the guys now calls, emails, and says he’s in love with me. Huh? You saw me for maybe 12 hours over a
week? He wants to come back out here and stay for awhile. I hardly know him, he’s OK looking but I don’t feel anything for him. We are both tied to jobs and mortgages and both of us are of an age where finding a new job these days is nearly impossible. Last time I checked, Vermont was located at the other end of a very large continent. Tis true that I have to look for men a long distance away as there are no available healthy men anywhere near here but I do think they ought to at least reside in the same time zone. Serious future faking here; I am grateful for having BR to open my eyes to this phenomenon as I am struggling with a lot of isolation and loneliness and the attendant extreme sadness. Wish BR could teach me how to get through the next 8 years by doing great things, accomplishing much, helping to fix this broken community but not having to feel anything, kind of emotionally shut down. Kinda off topic but I am doing something for me today. Am sitting here by the fire writing this rather than attending a mandatory ” appreciation day” put on by the college. I will catch up on work, go home work on my building, and NOT have to stand at the event alone watching
AC
miskwa –
sounds like he likes your house and lifestyle and wants a free stay-cation with free sex in front of the fire.
Damned phone again! I meant watching the AC flirting with other women. We also have a picnic on Saturday. I will show up, do my own flirting if anyone there is flirt- worthy, beings as how I am well and truly single; if AC is there, I’m outta there.
Miskwa, my thoughts are with you. It was my 39th birthday yesterday and people asked how I felt and I said, as lightly as I could, well, it’s a bit heavy, and then switched the subject because it’s particularly heavy if I think about staying here in jacked-up truck and tanning salon land while the last of my fertile eggs withers in my gut.
Seriously, let’s have a plan or something. Let’s have a strategy or something because we can’t have you living out the next eight years as though it’s a death sentence; and I don’t want to live the next two the same way.
I will think on the plan.
But before anyone jumps on my pessimism re fertility – I am aware: how awesome was it that a bunch of folks surprised me for my birthday in this new town? It’s down to one particular new friend, but I felt super grateful and had a fun and cake-filled evening.
Awesome Magnolia!
Magnolia,
Yes, this is the comment where a complete stranger tells you you’re not too old to have kids. It’s either me or someone else, so I’ll jump on it. Here goes….
The majority of my friends are mid-thirties to mid-40s, and a GOOD NUMBER of them have had babies in that time frame. This is no longer fodder for gossip rags, but real life. I don’t know if you see yourself in that scenario or not, but I just want to assure you that it IS possible and it DOES happen every day.
Having said that, I feel your pain. Birthdays suck. We’re allowed that. I’ll be 35 in less than a month, so I expect to have to be talked down from a rooftop with German chocolate cake and a bottle of wine. Good times.
We have the same birthday!!!
Happy Birthday Magnolia 🙂
I am very confused. The more I try to work through my issues the more difficult it becomes instead of easier. I am not doing myself a bit of good with all this dreaming. Yes, it is a huge waste of time. Grace, thank you. I can always count on you to be the voice of reason. Dancing, you too. Yes, that was me, the same person you’re remembering from other posts. Natalie, I’m honored that you thought I was screwed up enough to put in a comment. I will just be quiet for awhile, and read. I still have so much work to do. I’ve come a long way, but still have only just begun. Grace, your evaluation of my friend makes so much sense. I will reread over again, even write down what you have observed as it seems so accurate. I seem to need so much reinforcement. I AM A SMART, SENSIBLE WOMAN. If I could just stop dreaming about how things “could be one day”, I’d be so much better off.
That gave me a hearty chuckle Tinkerbell. Not really about being “screwed up enough” – I actually flagged it up for the reason that you’ve already recognised – you are guilty of going in a cycle of saying the same things but not following through and then back to a new fantasy. Rein it in. I also remember a lot of the pain you’ve been through and I think that much of what you do is about avoidance and fear of getting so close to someone that it might hurt to lose them. You lost your husband, then you were with that married guy (an affair perfect for not ‘losing’ because you can’t lose what you never had…but then you get hurt anyway) and now you seem to be outdoing yourself on the How Many Trizillion Miles Away Can I Find A Faux Lover? Think about going to grief counselling. ((((hugs))))
I know one thing, I am an obsessive compulsive) (trying to avoid saying “addictive personality”) and this online crap is plain and simple just another addiction. I absolutely will remove my profile so that I cannot be messaged. No waiting for subscription to expire. I’m like an alcoholic who promises to stop drinking or a smoker who keeps saying “this is the last one”. I need to just DO IT and stop wasting my time and everyone else’s. Thanks, girls.
Tinkerbell! You are a wonderful lady and any man would be lucky to have you. You just need to take some time to realize that yourself (:
Amen sista!
Kathie – AMEN! MarcyC- thankyou! I wish the same for you:-) Great insights from everyone. It’s comforting to know that I’m not alone. What is the most painful to swallow is the fact that, because of my impatience, I unknowingly sabatoged a potential love relationship:-/ This is the thought that keeps the negative train running.
Lisa
What makes u think that?
The discovery stage is not to stop you sabotaging but to stop you falling for someone who is unsuitable for you.
Nat, thanks for this very critical reminder of foregoing fantasy land by getting to know the person (for real) — and for me, that means not jumping into the sack so soon and not imposing my idea of him as my LOVER before knowing his true self. I can say at least 4 times in my life I took the shortcut for major relationships, which included marriage and ended in divorce. I’ve been telling my friends lately how interesting it is how the universe works because coming across your blog and this wonderful community of people on this site was like a gift from the universe. It is so timely for me. I recently let go of a major Assclown. Thankfully he is fading fading fading away the longer NC is in place. I needed your words of wisdom and voila there was your blog to help me. Now, similarly, I am in the early dating stage with someone who, so far, doesn’t appear to be an AC player out to break me. He is open, communicative and kind. He follows thru, does what he says he will, calls, does nice things for me, and treats me with respect. Well we are deliberately taking things SLOW. He was in a serious relationship that ended about 6 months ago. I think he got hurt and learned from it. We had a talk about doing this the right way, getting to know each other, and recently HE was the one who said “I want to do things different this time” — so, so far so good. No jumping into the lover role. He kisses me and holds my hand. The one question I have is…when does the discovery phase end and the next phase begin? I mean, do we ever really know a person? That can take a lifetime sometimes. They can essentially show you what they want to show you (or hide things) for as long as they want and maybe still not be completely authentic. I suppose this is where enough experiences with that person allow for trust to play into it, right? At some point, I will need to trust again. I’m happy I met this man and I will remember to ask the right questions, keep the blinders off, and eventually trust my judgement that perhaps I’ve found a good apple if he proves himself to be.
Oh, wow, Nat. Now, you’ve given me yet something else to consider! Grief counseling? After 6 years? Jeez! I don’t know. Food for thought. As if I need more food figuratively, AND literally. Instant headache. Just kidding. Oh, Gee, I need to be on two diets, food and the bullshit diet. I just started seriously, yesterday. I’ll include the latter. Incidentally, I emailed him a few minutes ago and told him “I’ll call you”, trying to indicate, don’t call me. I need quiet reflection time. But, how do I let him know that? Don’t want to lose out when I’m betting on potential. I’m in such unfamiliar territory. Can anyone suggest how I do this? Thank you, Natalie.
Tinkerbell and Phoenix —
I just thought of something that sort of pertains to your situations of men not living near you and you met online.
I have my profile on a dating site. I am probably going to pull it soon if everything works out with the man I’m currently seeing. But even when I wasn’t seeing someone and I get messages from men outside of my city I don’t even bother replying. To me, they are suspect. What, men in Chicago or Minneapolis don’t have enough women in their own city to date? Doubtful. It leaves me thinking that they are either married or have a gf or just want to have someone conveniently in another city so they don’t have to have a “real” relationship and that could be for so many not great reasons. I start to wonder how many other women in other cities they are talking to.
If you meet someone in person who is visiting or working in your city and lives somewhere else, and you meet and form a bond and there is chemistry, well I can see that being different. But if you just meet him online, hmmm no thanks. That’s my take.
I didn’t meet the guy online. We met in person at an event where we shared the same interest (it was a nonprofit thing). We do have chemistry and I do like him (or what I know of him thus far). If you read my post above I promise you–no fur coats of denial or rose tinted glasses here! I have a firm stance against online dating…I’m sure it works for some people, but I would NEVER do it. 🙂
@ JR and PhoenixRises- just wanted to second that.
There are many people finding themselves in this situation- who would never do online dating for a variety of reasons (I am in this camp, mainly because I find that the pressure to decide if I ‘like’ soemone is really hard to deal with, I much prefer getting to know someone thru being around them socially, and getting closer naturally.)
But now with so many of us traveling for work, and staying in different cities for varying periods of time, and with the internet allowing us to keep up with our nearest and dearest, it’s natural that these sorts of romances also start.
I ‘see’ some of my best friends, who live in the SAME city, more online than IRL sometimes when I am away for work etc or everyone is very busy.
Not saying it’s ideal- its far form it- but its happening, and will be something that many of us may have to consider, or else decide early on that this is the sort of situation we will categorically opt out of.
But I wold agree, if you haven’t actually met them yet and are just going off email convos with a person you met online, for me the stress is too much.
You just don’t know until you see a person, and it sets up too much opportunity for building things up in your mind.
JR. Did you meet him online? Does he live near you? I’ve given it much thought after reading the responses of my BR buddies. I need to find a way to opt out. I don’t want to be unkind, but I have to put myself first. I have to keep telling myself that I don’t owe him anything. He could be behaving the same way with countless other women. He’s very convincing and I’m very naive to believe it’s only me. I’m not ready, right now. I’m shirking responsibility for my own life, looking to give it over to someone else. That’s sad. I allowed my husband to take total charge when he was alive. And, I know that it was a huge mistake. He is no longer here. I have removed my profile from the site. It is the first step of many in the process of self care.
Tinkerbell –Actually I have done online dating before and some men have proved to be very nice but they all lived in my city. I would have several dates with them in person until I actually let myself start thinking of being with them in any sort of relationship. I think meeting someone in person is essential. otherwise they can be anyone they want to be, including fake.
There is this recent article in NYT that ties in with this topic: Heedlessly Romantic
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/23/fashion/romance-with-no-rules.html?pagewanted=all
My story: I met a man online who lived on the west coast while I was living on the east coast. We started off as pen pals and it developed into a LDR. He flew to visit me and I him. After four months, I applied for a job on the west coast to be closer to him. I got the job, and he helped drive me cross country. Even though he “lured me” (his words) to the west coast to be closer to him, he was still in love with his ex, which I found out later. Now here’s the thing: after I found out he was an EUM/FF and broke up with him (10 months later), I realized that his purpose in coming into my life was to serve as the catalyst to get me to move back to my home state. I am originally from the southern part of the state, but now live in the north because of this man. I have the best job I have ever had, earning more money than I ever had, living in a quaint little town near the water front, bought my own home four months after I split with him, and live forty-five minutes away from a city that I have always dreamed of living in; but never imagined that I would be able to afford to do so! I am also within 30 min. to a couple of hours driving distance of some spectacular redwood forests, mountains, and wine vineyards. There are so many wonderful things to do here, I could never get bored. What I am trying to say is that not all long distance relationships are meant to work ( he recently got married to a woman he met online). Sometimes they are meant to show/teach you something. When I realized that I was his stopgap until he could find something better (the fool did not realize that I WAS the best–his loss!), I ran for the hills. Because I am a wonderful person, things turned out well in spite of the heartbreak that I went through. I also realized that I would rather meet someone the old fashioned way–closer to home right from the start–than do the long distance online thing again.
yay gina! a good BR story!
I am having a discovery phase with myself. I only know the ‘strong, capable, I can do anything’ me. Now I am discovering the ‘I need to ask for help a lot’, ‘I have to adjust to a new normal which is life with serious chronic illness’ & even the, ‘I might never be ready to date again but who cares because hey, I’m alive aren’t I?’ me. This me (except for the asking for help part)’ is most uncomfortable. She doesn’t sit well at all. I feel so far behind.so many of you. My only practice atm is self acceptance & gratitude. It’s all I can think of to ward off the pity pot bugaboo’s. So. Hello me. Not liking this self discovery. I know I prolly should.be saying hey, I’m doing great all things considered, but I feel crap. The light at the end of the tunnel is very far away today. I can’t quite see it even. Just believing it’s there. There’s a thing I discovered about me today. I made a decision to believe even when I feel so down it defies words. Nuff said. I’m.going back to Cc’s bottle. Please excuse.me if I don’t come out for 100 years. I feel so down.
Teachable, please don’t be so hard on yourself. It’s okay to put yourself in the recovery position. Sometimes the blows we receive from life, and from others who are nasty to us, leave us very hurt and stunned. Recovery is mission number one.
Please take things one at a time. I think you’re overloading yourself with so much expectation about all the things you need to do to get down the road a bit faster. Know what? You’ll travel down the road a bit faster if you left some of your weighty expectations alongside the road for now.
‘Self pity’ ‘Embarrassment’ and ‘Worrying about the light at the end of the tunnel’ are three weights that you know you can leave alongside the road right now. You don’t need those.
‘Dating’ — this is one expectation that you can put into a parcel and mail to yourself in the near future. Address it “Teachable, to be opened in January of 2013” or whatever month suits you, and send it off to your future self.
‘Accepting the New Normal’ — okay, put this one in your pocket and take it with you.
‘Health improvements’ — yes, this is your priority, so do carry this one. Arm yourself with knowledge about your condition and let your health practitioners guide you. Your condition will improve and be brought under control. You will feel better. This will propel you down the road a good long way, and it will also take care of ‘The New Normal’.
The stress over your EUMs/ACs will lessen if you go easy on yourself — give yourself more time, and don’t worry or stew about things. Intelligent people can overthink things and distress themselves needlessly. Your feelings of distress will abate, I promise, given time and kindness and understanding.
Strong, capable, do-anything Teachable hasn’t changed. Only her circumstances have.
Hi Teachable,
When I read your comment, I felt my heart go out to you. Please don’t confuse that with pitying you; it’s only that I feel this way often, even if I don’t have the same circumstances as you. I have no advice, just empathy. And a story. I’m not clear on exactly how it will help you, but my instincts are telling me to share it with you, so here goes.
I have what many would consider an unlikely friendship with a woman who goes to the same religious meetings as I do. She is 90 years old. And though she may move around slower than I do, when I look into her eyes, I see a young girl who laughs heartily and jokes impishly. Her wit and mind is razor-sharp. She is, hands-down, the smartest person I have ever met (and I’ve hobnobbed with some intellectual heavyweights, so I don’t say this lightly). She’s been through “life” and all of its ups and downs, as you can imagine at her age, including recently losing her husband of 60 years. But despite all of this, never ONCE have I looked at her with pity. Never ONCE have I had the thought that she’s incapable. As a matter of fact, when I think of her, the word that comes to my mind is “success.” When she speaks, I listen. I want to pay attention to how she’s lived her life so that I can become like she is. She is worthy of emulation.
Having dinner with her the other night, the most extraordinary thing happened. She made a statement about something inconsequential (I forget the details), and then later in the conversation, when she realized that the statement was based on something inaccurate, she actually said out loud to herself, “That was wrong. I need to correct that thought.” And I watched in amazement as she seemed to be going through the internal process of correcting the thought, right before my eyes! It took about 5 seconds, literally. And I thought to myself, “THIS—THIS is why she has been so successful in life all these years!” Obviously, she has many practiced years of correcting thoughts that don’t benefit her in any way. It was such a simple lesson. But I’ll never forget it.
Now, please don’t think that I’m comparing you to a 90-year old, or that I’m expecting you (or any of us!) to be able to correct our negative thoughts in 5 seconds. I’m simply sharing with you an alternate way of being. And an alternate future. We could ALL be like this woman, one who is successful and positive, looks and acts DECADES younger than her age, and lives with the most amazing sense of love and spunkiness. She’s been through worse than most of us, but get this: NOBODY pities her. Sure, she gets love, respect, kindness, and help (when she needs —and ALLOWS— it! Lol.). But NEVER pity. NEVER condescension. She is someone to be watched closely and imitated.
Something you said jumped out at me: “I feel so far behind.so many of you. My only practice atm is self acceptance & gratitude.”
It made me LAUGH! Now, before you get upset, let me explain: THIS is one of the MAIN lessons of life!! And you’re there!! HOW can THAT be “so far behind” us?! I can only ASPIRE to be there!!!! You may not see how intuitive your comments are, or how they’ve helped so many people (including me, though I don’t always respond personally), or even your own internal progression in your practice of self-acceptance and gratitude. But that doesn’t mean it’s not happening. I’m not saying to turn your internal parent into one that gives trophies to all of the “kids on the team”, not just the winner. I’m simply suggesting that, in those quiet moments with yourself, you pay attention to your own progress. Because it’s there. You just need to see it in yourself. And that will motivate you to move on to further successes. Maybe they’re not the same successes as other people, but so what? Make your own. They count just as much as anyone else’s. Maybe even more than most.
SHIT, the website ate my comment. i’ll try again…ffffff
teachable-
grizelda and revolution are right, you are being way to hard, and way under compassionate, with yourself.
adjusting to serious chronic illness is enormous alone. then, lumping it on top of wading through all our crap like we’re trying to do here and expect to be able to pretty up for a date is just waaaaay too much pressure to put on yourself right now. and you’re taking that pressure and turning it into judgment.
look at revs’ example of her friend who corrected her thought in real time. you know why she could do that? because, as revs said, she’s love, she gives/receives it to/from others and she gives it to herSELF. without haughtiness, without criticism. this enables her to correct a mistake without condemning herself, without having to hold a jury trial, for having made one. she makes it look so simple. maybe it is.
so, please, just step out of your own courtroom, and back in the bottle with you. be easy. be gentle. take care of yourself.
*puts a blanket over teachable, tucks her in*
I have long had a policy of not starting out hot and intense — the faster things tend to start up, IME, the worse they tend to pan out in the long run.
I have yet to determine that I made a mistake in waiting and taking my time.
My ex actually wrote and self-published a semi-autobiography. I read it before I met him, so I literally thought I could “read him like a book” and had him all sussed out before our first date. Of course I ignored the bigger picture: who the hell writes a biography about themselves (at 27 no less)? Perhaps if I had recognized that as a red flag at the get-go I wouldn’t have had to discover the hard way that the man in person was not the man on the page.
laurie-
a person who writes an autobiography at 27 is probably also writing a book that’s utter bullshit, which is also why you couldn’t read him – that book is who he wants to be, not who he really is. just food for thought. but don’t beat yourself up about it. just have a book burning.
Laurie,
I agree with cc. In the writing/editing field, we have the saying “Everyone has written a book.” It’s kinda like the joke in L.A., “I’m a waitress at such-and-such, but I’m ALSO an actress!”
And at 27? To think that he’s been there/done that/learned all his life lessons AND self-published them for the masses? Sorry, but I smell something and it ain’t teen spirit.
Mymble –
I say this because (and I know I sound like I’m putting all the blame on myself) had I not been such an eager beaver, had I taken my time to get to know him, then maybe he would’ve seen me as a viable option. The last man I dated (if I can even call it that…practically threw myself at him) just saw me as sex. I set my self up to be seen as someone who had no boundaries, going with the flow, never asked for what I wanted. He disappeared on me several times and I always took him back with little to no explanation. I feel that my behavior (me allowing him to get away with his sh*t behavior) put me in the “this girl doesn’t respect herself, why should I make the effort” lane. So by being so anxious, not asking questions, not really getting to know him, ignoring all the red flags, he lost respect for me. I lost perspective. I was his fallback girl. Now he’s in a relationship with someone else treating her like gold. I feel like I set myself up. What I wanted was a relationship and I got nothing but lies and pain.
Lady Lisa,
I doubt he’s “treating her like gold.” If a person has the capacity to treat you like crap, no matter how much you “allowed” it to happen, then he’s not a decent man at heart. And that will come out with anyone in his life at some point, regardless of their good or bad boundaries.
If I was around town during the L.A. riots (thank God I wasn’t), I wouldn’t have looted no matter how many people around me were doing it. And no matter how many broken windows I saw in the storefronts around me.
You live you learn, Lisa. The girl that lived on “doesn’t respect herself, why should I make the effort” lane doesn’t live there anymore.
Lady Lisa: Honey I could have written what you just wrote. I did the same exact thing. Reading your story made me cringe because of my own behavior this past summer. But know that he probably isn’t treating her any better…remember the cockroach doesn’t turn into a frog and then a prince.
Lady Lisa,
I too struggle with the though “I sabotaged this” “It’s all my fault” “If only I had done a,b,c, then he wouldn’t have done x,y,z.” But more often than not, this is pretty effed up thinking, and a way for us to feel like we are in control of things that are really completely out of our control (i.e. someone’s character).
Integrity is not conditional. We don’t *make* someone treat us any certain way. They behave that way because that’s who they are. A man with integrity may have picked up on the fact that you were an “eager beaver” and chosen not to opt into the relationship in the first place. Or perhaps he would have pursued the relationship at a healthy place. What he would NOT have done is breeze in and out of your life, flip-flap you about and use you for sex. This is not what healthy people with integrity do. You didn’t make him treat you that way because of your perceived lack of self-respect. He acted that way because that is who is *Is*.
I would be careful thinking that he is treating this other woman like gold (unless it’s a gold encrusted piece of turd). Maybe he’s approaching the situation differently, but make no mistake, he’s still the same guy who thinks its okay to mess people about if it’s suits him. Be thankful you’re rid of him.
We are all of us responsible for our own personal growth. I think we’ll both discover that once we become healthier, we will begin to attract healthier people and recognize people that aren’t emotionally available. I think we’ll also start to realize that we don’t turn healthy people unhealthy. Emotional health and availability isn’t a light switch people turn on when they realize we have self-respect. We’re just not that powerful.
Laurie
Too right!
Sometimes I read Natalie’s posts and I say to myself, “at least I haven’t done that!” I remember saying that when Natalie referred to someone insisting on having a relationship with someonewho was just out of a 20 year LTR. Well what do you know, never say never, because about 6 weeks ago I made the choice to start dating someone who was roughly a year out or a 20 year marriage!
I asked a lot of questions about the marriage and whether he thought he was ready to pursue something new. He gave all the right answers, was affectionate, respectful, spent hours talking and going places. I was happy to get all of the attention, it seemed so appropriate compared to what I’d been through lately.
He shares custody with his kids so we saw each other every other week. I saw him 3-5 times a week when he didn’t have them but we didn’t see each other at all on the weeks he had his kids. This was fine with me as it was a new relationship.
I noticed that everything would be peachy, awesome, even when we were together and he would be in touch by phone when we couldn’t see each other. But on the weekends when he would return his kids to their mom his behavior would be distant. He would be out of touch for a couple of days during this time, not returning texts for hours or at all.
The first time I confronted him with this he assured me he understood my concerns and they were valid. He said he wasn’t sure if he could be in a serious relationship just yet because he wanted to develop himself as a person, make new friends etc. He married his high school sweetheart and spent 20 years as a committed father and husband and needed to discover who he was as a person. I get it, I wouldn’t want to clip anyone’s wings. So I agreed it was best to move on from the situation, although I was hurt. (He had been my first sexual,partner in a year and that caused an attachment for me.)
Within days of this conversation I text him to say hello because I missed him. I know it wasn’t smart. But he was excited to hear from me, he made plans to take me to a concert and we spent the next 4 days together. We get along really well. There is this ease in conversation and fun that I haven’t had in a long time. I know those aren’t “landmarks” but they felt good, and I hadn’t had that for a while. He’s met my friends, and even they were hopeful for me. Last Sunday he left my house to receive his children for the week. All that week we communicated and things seemed to be back on track. He admitted he got scared and apologized for that.
Well, after his week with the kids was over I was hoping to see him again. We had been in constant contact all week including Saturday but I didin’t hear a peep from him for 2 days after that. I finally contacted him Monday to see what was up. In short he tells me that he gets in a funk over the end of his marriage, thinks he needs counseling and feels very guilty for the way things ended with his ex. I told him those feelings were normal. But then he said, “Sometimes I want her back. Sometimes.” I don’t know if he wants her back, per se, of if he just wishes things could be what they were because it’s familiar and comfortable and easier. His kids are 12 and 14 and I know this can’t be easy for them. I just don’t feel strong enough to sift through this. I really like this guy and I know i’m the type of person that would stand by a man in all his confusion in the hopes that he’ll see how great i am.
But I don’t want to be that person anymore. Two weeks ago he said he wanted to grow as a person and meet new people. I can stand by that. I can’t stand by the idea that this guy who seems so great when he is with me harbors feelings for his ex wife. I also felt that by avoiding me for two days he was already making a statement about where I stood in all this.He could have called or met with me to talk but I had to drag it out of him.
That’s when I told him I was stepping away and that any further communication wouldn’t work between us. Then I did something weird and asked him to reimburse me by mailing me a money order for some Netflix DVDs he lost. I don’t care about the money. In some strange way I feel like I was standing up for myself. I feel I came across as petty, I know it’s up to me to stay away from him. I know it’s the right thing but I feel bad. Like I came across unsympathetic or impatient, like I could have been more understanding of his needs. But then I remember that I have needs too.
Heya Donna,
Your last line says it all, “you have needs too”
You have gotten a very lucky escape even though you may feel dissapointed seen as it was your first relationship in a while,
BELIEVE ME when I say, I wish I did what you did and left at the first sign of trouble especially with the ex involved.
Mine was freshly separated and with three kids in tow and a bi-polar exwife. We were together three years and still up until the day we broke up, the two of them still had viscious arguments when he would collect/drop off the kids and she had him twisted around her timetable as ALWAYS. I know this situation might be slightly different than yours but she had his family, yes his family completely manipulated and they were all on her side and made my life hell – as you can see I didn’t say “our life hell” as he never ever did anything about the treatment I recieved – and only after discovering BR that It was me who should of done something about the treatment…LEAVE…
You made the right choice, no matter what you do to try and make him see how great and fabulous you are, if he doesn’t know what he wants definitely leave him be and instead take care of you and make you happy.
I found this post really useful for my situation..
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/dont-let-empathising-with-circumstance-turn-you-into-an-emotional-airbag/
Hey guys, I have a bit of an awkward question.
I was working on my boundaries and values today and something popped into my head and gave me a “hmm” momment.
It is to do with the discovery phase and it’s one of those important personal questions.
Obviously before venturing into the sexual aspect of the relationship, when would be the appropriate time to ask someone when their most reacent sexual health check was? How can you know for sure if they are telling the truth?
I read a post recently, Im not quite sure who it was but I think she said, her partner assured her he was clean but turned out she caught an STD from him.
Wouldn’t mind hearing what you guys think about it…
I’m a safety girl myself I’ve had two long term relationships and two checks, both times I’ve been clear and I would be honest with that information as it’s high up there on my boundaries list.
I would just start using a condom and if the topic of unprotected sex comes up I´d say “okay but I think we should have a health check first just to be safe, let´s go together”.
At least that´s what I´ve done.
Hmm G-Money, excellent question. As I did my boundaries/values, the question regarding STD’s didn’t pop up and for me it absolutely should. I guess, now that you pose the question, I figured that since I’m over 50, STD’s aren’t an issue? So totally wrong headed. I’ve just been fortunate in that regard. But you are right, as long as we are going in with some consciousness, STD’s are a part of the discovery phase. I’ve taken a vow of celibacy (only for me because sex messes with my mind) until I’m comfortable that I’m in a real relationship based on honesty, trust, care, and respect. I didn’t think about the next step. That’s why you all are the best, you are always one step ahead. Good point and excellent thinking. I don’t have an answer though. I’m with you in wondering how and when you should pose that question. This discovery phase is really more complicated than I thought. Thank you for the heads up.
PS. I read somewhere that the individuals agreed and submitted to tests and saw the results before engaging in sex. Don’t know if that is too extreme. Don’t know how to think about this.
Oh help I seem to have been doing everthing the complete opposite way. I´ve never taken the time to know someone much before jumping in a relationship, I even had this theory that if things don´t get relationship-y straight away, it means it´s just not meant to be.
Not sure what that was all about! Was I just playing some Relationship Russian Roulette?
Oh wait, not all the time. The only time I got involved with someone I knew well (my lifelong friend and creepy harem king EUM) I just blatantly ignored all the many red flags.
Yesterday, reading all of your wise comments, I remembered one single anecdote that has been haunting me since: when the sister of a mutual friend passed away, I called EUM to let him know about the funeral. His reaction: “His sister died? Which one? The youngest one?” Me: “No, the oldest, the one who was married with kids, this is so terrible, please come to the service at least!” EUM: “Ah, right.”
Of course, he never showed up. Weird that I got angry with him at the time but I forgot all about it when he started FF-ing me.
So thanks for your tough love, Natalie, I really need it.
JR. I know I have that option of connecting with guys only in my state or close enough to see regularly. My sister who did Online for a brief period even asked me, “Why do I do this to myself?” (Setting myself up for failure). It’s by CHOICE. Close by is too close for comfort. I want the attention, “romance”, but don’t want to deal with any adversities which are sure to come with ANY relationship. Natalie said it perfectly, that I don’t want to love someone that I am going to lose, because I cannot deal with the loss. So, in light of that, I really need to focus my efforts somewhere else. Finally totally convinced. Men should not be the sole essence of my entire life.
My loneliness is overwhelming, but IT IS MANAGEABLE. I need to “get a life”.
PR. I hope my question about “did you meet him online?” was not taken as an insult by you. I missed your comment where you expressed your feeling about dating websites, or I would not have asked. Since BR is worldwide, our questions and comments despite a gargantuan effort by the staff do not always correspond with each other as they are entered from different time zones and come in to the website at different times. It’s a huge job but is well done. I will be having much less to say at lesser frequency as I continue working on my issues. Trying to keep from shutting down altogether.
Hey Tinkerbell,
I hope you don’t shut down on BR. I’ve been following your comments and, yeah, there may be work to do before you get back out there. What helped me, not to say that I’m fixed by any means, was to focus on ME. There’s so much out there other than a guy, particularly an out of zip guy. It’s a recipe for a dreamer. Stay strong. Being vulnerable after a lifetime of hurt and pain is difficult…total understatement.
Hi Natalie and everyone. Another gem of a post.
A long while back I decided to stop skipping stages following some deep soul searching about my need to be loved, needed and to be cared for resulted which had resulted in me rushing in where even fools would fear to tread. Having made that decision I knew that my resolve would be tested.
I had seen this guy about for sometime, he had begun entered my dreams and for a time was all a long time was all I thought about. We became close not dating but hanging out with others and sometimes just the two of us. I was very interested but cautious. After a fairly long (10 months) period of appearing shy, humble, unassuming, easy going and on the same wave length. The man got comfortable and would talk trash about others, be dismissive of conversations he did not instigate or was not interested in, was unwilling to credit others abilities, believed that he never got a break, waited to be invited to do stuff, expected high praise and acknowledgement, was highly insecure, childish,would sulk and give the silent treatment, was lazy and to top it all has a temper. I noticed anger behind the eyes on at least one occasion. I have never been in a violent relationship so those eyes made be back up quick. On one occasion at the office I watched him through a computer screen across a desk when it did not work on another he jumped up and down on the spot because I apparently was not listening. On another he was verbally rude to me after I made a joke about him not having any work to do, we had been ribbing each other most of the day so the joke was in the spirit of mood. From nowhere he publically told me to go F myself. (I did give him a piece of my mind and the people around me looked on in horror)I felt very embarrased. He would blow hot and cold and openly flirt with any new member of the team. I watched it all did not/would not move forward. He seen to get more frustrated as a result so would make comments to try and undermine me.
Even though I had backed up, many times I was annoyed and upset with myself believing I had done something wrong particluarly when he would be nice to others whilst ignoring me only to come across later to participate in a conversation I was having with others like nothing had happened. I eventually learnt that it was all on him.
He has this nice guy veneer that so far means others have not seen what I have. I had an aah moment during this test. The profile was the same as my mother’s having addressed issues with her directly and determined how are relationship was going to be (it is on my terms or not at all)I knew that I would not tolerate this BS any longer.
I did not to skip a step nor pursue that relationship. Had I rushed through the red flags I would have been seduced, sexed and slung. Like the tortoise I chose the long road and while I did not enjoy this test I feel great about not loosing myself to someone unworthy. I feel like I have broken the chain.
Well this post describes exactly what I have been doing. I am only 22 so I am glad I have noticed this and so can try and break the habit now. With my two major relationships, I forced it a bit and ended up in relationships in which the men were half-hearted and as a result, I never truly felt loved. I never felt validated by my romantic decisions.
Now I don’t want that to happen again but I find myself painfully aware of the lack of attention otherwise (although that could be my perception). I guess I am insecure about the fact that I’m shy and worry that I have to work hard to be noticed. I have a very serious looking dead pan face and my face does not form a natural smile. It’s very distracting because strangers say to me “smile” and I think “grrr…why do I have to smile on demand?”. This is far apart from how open my heart is but I don’t show that well enough.
Saying that, after putting in practise the advice I read here, I’ve noticed that my overall sense of well-being is better. Because of this I smile more and have a more relaxed demeanour. Naturally, more people will talk to me. I’ll have to try and keep this up.
One final thought. As much as it is important to trust others, it’s actually more important to trust yourself. It’s the only way you can really open up to become vulnerable. When I look at myself I realise that I have to work on that very hard in order to make some progress.
This is my first time commenting on a post and I just have to say skipping the discovery phase really hit home with me. As long-distance relationships have been mentioned frequently throughout the comments, I figure it’s a good moment to share my long-distance relationship story (hint: it didn’t turn out good, since I am on BR). 2 years ago, I met a local guy while I was doing volunteer work abroad. He was much younger, handsome in an awkward kind of way, and at first just helped to distract me from the boredom of being in a small-town without many of the comforts I was used to. The first time he spoke to me, he asked me to be his girlfriend and I literally laughed. I told him I thought getting to know him would be more fitting before I agreed to be his girlfriend. The “getting to know you” phase consisted of about 3 weeks of him coming by my house everyday to chat and telling me how gorgeous I was. He grew on me over time, so we became official. He was elated. Enter some mindblowing sex, ridiculously early declarations of being in love, introductions to his entire family and LOTS of future faking (yes, we talked about getting married and me moving there, building a house, having beautiful bicultural kids). I got caught up and admit I believed all of his promises. Why? Who knows, because looking back I had no idea who he really was. I returned to my country 3 months later and we kept in touch via phone calls (my expense) and facebook messages. In the year and a half that followed, I made 3 visits to the cost of $2000, spent hundreds of dollars on gifts for him and his family, and wired him money to pay for school (so he says). The last visit I had with him in May did not go so well. I flew out there thinking I would have a great week with my ever-adoring boyfriend and was met with someone who pretty much ignored me and disregarded me feelings the whole time. He actually left me alone the first night to go “run an errand”, returning 2 hours later without any explanation on where he was. And then he just repeated this behavior throughout the visit denying that he was up to anything shady. Up until the last morning I was there, he swore to me we “would be okay” and that he was in love with me. My intuition was actually speaking to me from the moment he first picked me up in the airport, but I ignored it. I came back from the visit and didn’t hear a word from him, but maintained contact with his family (we were close). His own Mom actually told me to move on and that I could do better. 6 weeks after returning, I called him and to my surprise he answered. We had a 5-minute conversation that consisted of him telling me “hey sorry I haven’t been in touch, but the distance killed everything”, me getting angry for him not saying this pre-visit, and then him saying “hey, don’t worry you’ll find the person you deserve”. And then him hanging up (really). I made some lame attempts to contact him afterwards (he won’t answer) because I NEEDED answers. Now, I see he is a total coward and finds it easier to avoid me than to deal with big grown-up things. I stopped contacting his family as well because it was just keeping me from moving on. Also, I learned through his Mom he’s in a new relationship (probably has been for awhile) and I don’t want to torture myself with the details. NC all the way. I am thankful BR is helping me to recognize just how doomed my “relationship” was from the start.
Oh dear.
Yr all all right.
Grizelda. I do need to drop these expectations I have of myself. Of course I’m not dating! It’s silly to compare myself to those
of you who are. I’m not physically well enough to be (or
emotionally either I feel as my physical condition has impacted my state of mind). The decision I made not to date until my health recovers was a self loving one. Why aren’t I acknowledging the soundness of that decision instead of beating myself up for measuring up to where I imagine many of you are at? In fact, when & why did comparing myself insides to others’ sneak back in to my thinking anyway? I have definately let my guard down there. And the strong me must still be inside somewhere. Otherwise, I’d be right off the rails by now. Nothing to do with AC’s or EUM’s but all health, life, work, & $ stuff. And I’m not. I’m ill – yes. But I’m following my medical practicioners advice to the letter & fighting the medical system (which prefers to simply drug ppl up & deny them more expensive physical therapies – an option which is not acceptable to me) tooth & nail to get the treatment I need.
Revolution, I never thought of it like that. Alas, I didn’t come up with such things on my own however. I learned them in 12 step groups which I have attended 27 yrs now backed by 23 yrs now of recovery from substance abuse. I have been so very fortunate. Many people have helped me on my journey. Both professional counsellors & fellow self help participants. As such, I cant take the credit. All I have done is listen & learn.
The 90 yo lady you describe sounds amazing. It’s admirable that you are able to recognise the value of her contribution to your life & your religous group. Many would over look this in their haste to go about their busy lives. I too value greatly the contributions of our elder citizens to my self help groups. It is always their stories which touch me most deeply. I will remember the story you have shared & use it to try to pay even more attention for experience really does count for everything. I find it hard to keep myself resentment free now. How these women do it into their 80’s & 90’s when I know life was no less harsh for them, & many times, more so, is something really worthy aspiring to.
Cc. Thank goodness for you & your bottle & blankie. I think we are both hard on ourselves at times. I wrote a post for you in the last thread. Not sure if it’s there though. Shall we paint our nails purple & decide aww heck. Who gives a damn. If I’m gunna be an invalid for a while I may as well be one with beautiful purple nails! Sulk! Snuggles under blankie…x
Teachable!
I’m so glad I didn’t scare you off with my “novella” of a comment to you! 🙂
A little further on my 90-year old friend (we’ll call her “H”)because I believe it’s relevant: I actually sought her out and asked her to study the Bible with me after I had been beaten and bruised heart- and self-esteem-wise from my EU. It’s a little embarrassing to admit, but I needed a home to go to, someone to tell me “Good job”, someone to give me a gold star when I did good. Jeez, it’s funny how, as an adult, you miss those things.
It was like one of those 80’s/90’s movies where the punk girl in Doc Martins and purple-spiked hair gets sent to her grandmother’s house for the summer and is forced to work the farm, but gains a friendship and learns life lessons from a woman who, though a lot older, has the same spirit. I am a bit of a punk at heart, and at the time (after a pretty public “dropping on my a**” by the EU AC)I was being surrounded by people who were enjoying watching the train wreck and wanting to know the details. But “H” was different. She didn’t ask questions. She didn’t talk about it at ALL, in fact (whether she was aware of it or not). She just made me a warm dinner and started building me from the ground up with the things she taught me. She told me how proud she was of me when I would remember what I was learning. Just for remembering some small detail, something even a child could remember. I’ve never been a slouch in the smarts department, but her pride in me still brought tears to my eyes. It made me feel worthwhile. And I needed that.
Anyway, off I go again. Sorry, lol. This is all just to say that I think that during the grieving process (whether after a death or an ended relationship, or even the “death” of an old way of being), we can find our strength again in the simplest things, the simplest people. There’s power in unexpected places sometimes.
You said: “I find it hard to keep myself resentment free now. How these women do it into their 80?s & 90?s when I know life was no less harsh for them, & many times, more so, is something really worthy aspiring to.”
You know, I think the reason they can do that is simple: they recognize they are almost out of time, and so they jettison anything in their life that is unimportant. Resentment, I would think, would be one of the first things to go. Though it’s hard for us still in the middle of our lives. We just love to bog ourselves down with these things, don’t we? 🙂 But we’re learning constantly.
Okay, okay, I’ll leave you alone now! 🙂 I don’t mean to make this “all about me”! I just feel where you are right now, I really do. I’m so glad you’re taking the time to heal. Grizelda and cc had some EXCELLENT thoughts for you too. See how many of us are rooting for you?! 🙂
(And apologies, Natalie! After this, I really will try to keep these comments a lot more succint!)
purple with glitter!
JR, Laurie and Revolution:
Thank you for your words and solidarity. I’m working everyday, like we all are, to move toward self empowerment and the courage to set firm boundaries. The work is hard but necessary. I do struggle daily to not blame myself for the actions of AC’s. I know intellectually that it’s not my fault, but the spirit…the core hasn’t caught up yet. This time of self reflection and embracing a FULL no bullshit diet has forced me to see things about myself that are uncomfortable and shocking. How could I let a man treat me this way? Where is my self respect? Where did I learn to believe that this behavior was acceptable? I’m at my last bridge. I’m tired. I want change. Im doing the work no matter how revealing and soul wrenching it is. It’s all worth it.
Thank you everyone for sharing your stories here. It has been a tremendous source of encouragement and inspiration. Peace!
Lady Lisa,
You’re welcome, and thank you for your helpful comments as well. I feel ya on the “being tired” from the self-work. Some days I just want to say “To hell with it!” But I don’t. It’s like being on a diet and not losing weight sometimes. It’s frustrating. But if we hang in there, the next week we lose 4 lbs! Amazing! We are changing, even when we don’t see it. All the best!
Magnolia
Sorry it took me sooo long to reply, these past coupla weeks have been super busy with no end in sight. Happy birthday, mines a week from Saturday (52) and also marks my 6th year of breast cancer survival. Maybe we ought to both move to BC, especially if the US presidential election goes badly. Mountains and wildlife and maybe a more amenable atmosphere. My “plan” right now is to increase the value of my house and property as much as I can in the hope that I can get enough for it eventually to be able to leave both teaching and here. There just isnt much of a job market for older (or any) academics and my house is unaffordable to locals, even for rental so I cannot just leave. Am avoiding Mr. Future Faker in the hopes that he will evaporate soon and have bailed out of my last dating site after mucho anger/frustration after the the last 6, uneducated, minimally employed, unhealthy, dudes in a row apparently failed to or cannot read my profile; this happened in the same week that my at work AC who alas is tall, fit, educated, and gorgeous showed up at my casa in search of power tools. He went on and on about how much he likes my house (it IS cool), I felt like saying “but you don’t give a rats about ME! Was cordial, polite, but totally rattled inside. Major sadness. Speaking of sad, have you considered IVF? I have a colleague in the same situation as yours biological clock-wise. Tis hard to raise kids alone (I raised a brother), but with a good support network it is do-able. BTW we too are infested with monster trucks but at least the tanning place went out of business.
Revolution~
Great insight:-) Yes! Thank you again and all the best to you as well.
Books
Welcome. Stay with us. I appreciate your story. Since I have recently, after much flipping back and forth, have stopped all online activity.I No longer have access to the site after deleting my profile. This action has been difficult and a big accomplishment for me. But your story serves as reinforcement of my decision and the futility of it all. Thanks so much.+
Glitters up. Shall we do our toes too Cc? Grinz. 😉
Revolution that is a beautiful story. Thankyou for taking the time to carefully share it. I understand perfect. I also relate, a lot. Two women who have befriended me at a women’s group I attend regularly, are in their 70’s. I haven’t sat around anyone’s kitchen table but one has been to my house for cups of tea. We do look like the odd couple. Me the rock n roll chick (not working has allowed me to revert to who I really am away from 9-5 life) & she, like your friend, looking for all the world like my grandmother! She never forgets to ask after me either. It’s very touching. In return I use my work to help with advice re the grandkids & their Mother.
It’s funny how life brings us together with different people. A little like here I suppose. Thankyou again for sharing your story. I’ve thought of it often throughout the week & shall try to carry it’s wise lesson with me.
Rock and roll chicks unite, teachable! 🙂
I was touched to hear that my story meant enough to you to ponder during your week. That makes me feel so good. Glad, also, to know that you have good female role models in your life too.
And on the discovery of me journey I learned something else today. Sometimes I am unthinkingly unkind to myself. Today for example I went shopping in a store I used to shope for clothes for my deceased ex with together with him. Worse, it was the store where together I bought him the hat & scarf he was cremated in! Why did I do this? I was searching a particular type of bag, & couldn’t find one in the women’s stores, so I thought, perhaps a unisex one from the menswear store might suffice. I was aware it was ‘the store’ before going in, but told myself, ‘don’t be rediculous, it’s ONLY a store’. After all, we shopped at the supermarket also, & I still go there, almost daily in fact! So, in my self ignoring arrogant way, I sucked it up & in I went. No, they did not have a bag. My thoughts were all over imagining his body as ashes the moment I walked out, & I then wandered the mall for a while noticing guys walking alone, beating myself up about no-one is probably ever going to want ME, because of course, there MUST be something WRONG with me, & I can’t possibly date & study at the same time, because I NEED those uber high marks, yadda, yadda. When I got home I felt sad & lost (notice how I had talked myself INTO that) which took some time to recognise & correct with right thinking (everything happens for a reason. The reason will be revealed to me in due course. Meanwhile get on with it. Yes it’s sad for me, that he died, but it’s sadder for him). And ALL that, stemmed from ONE unkind arrogant action to myself. I really do have a lot to learn about me. Teachable shall be remaining in quarentine for quite some time yet!
I totally, totally get it, Teachable. Just yesterday, I went to the beach that my EUM and I and a couple of other friends would always go to. And guess who I saw paddle-boarding? Yep, him and my friends (who are a couple). They didn’t see me, so I took off down the beach. It made me sad. I miss him. I miss hanging with them all. The only saving grace is thank GOD the new girlfriend wasn’t there. But still, it hurts.
Anyway, no our stories aren’t the same. But it’s just funny how we both went to places where we once went with our EUMs. Sigh. Those are just hard times. Hard memories.
It’s interesting to me how you are so aware of how your mood and your imagination colored your perspective (seeing single men walking, thinking they would never want you). Makes me wonder how many different perspectives are walking around in a crowded place at any given time. We all have our “stories.”
Teachable, good for you. I think you already know that you’re on the right track. And you’re teaching me a lot with your comments as well. Rock on, sis.
Dang Natalie, I truly 100% agree that dating is a discovery phase that cannot be skipped but it seems so slow! I just got back from a second date with a very nice guy. Absolutely no red flags or even amber ones. It’s like I don’t know what to do unless there is drama, trauma, assumptions, future faking, and fast forwarding. It’s just been really easy. He calls when he says he will and we arrange where to meet for dinner. Although he texted today instead of calling which made me a bit uneasy but dinner went famously. He walked me to my car and we exchanged a little kiss and I was on my way. We agreed to meet next weekend for dinner, the elusive 3rd date. I realize it’s been a total of maybe 7 hours and no obvious red/amber flags. It just feels really weird and different. It DOESN’T feel like I’m bashing my head against a brick wall and I’m not chasing a feeling or connection or validation. It feels really slow tho. Appearance-wise, he’s tall (everyone is when you are 5’2″), very handsome, 6 years younger, nice hair, good jeans, and in great shape. His personality isn’t what I’ve normally encountered. There is simply no anxiety, butterflies, jumpy, waiting for a call. Is it me? Since my former shortcuts have all ended up in disaster, I’m committed to taking the time to get to know someone and consider whether there are shared core values. Gracious tho, it is slow compared to my past. At this point, I’m not even sure if there are common interests other than the treadmill, Italian food and seafood. He, apparently, is proceeding slowly as well. It is different reading BR and then applying it. So next week will be the third date and I’ll be doing my due diligence. On one hand, I miss the drama and the trauma, on the other hand it feels just kinda peaceful. I know what I have done it the past did not work. Thank you Natalie. Sheesh it feels like I’m in slow motion…!
Runner
I felt exactly the same with the boyfriend. He didn’t future fake, compliment me, lunge at me, eye me up or flirt. He was consistent, always calm, always happy. I didn’t know what to do with that.
But after nearly three months – how’s that for slow – it’s become very clear that he likes me a lot, and I him. I do get excited about seeing him. Not in a heart sinking anxious way but because I know I will have a lovely time.
He started complimenting me, which is nice. I had been wondering if he’d noticed I’m a woman!
You’ve had two dates runner, it’s nothing. It’s appropriate for it to be just friendly and ordinary.
Ps the boyfriend is tall, funny, handsome and a great kisser. Im not telling anyone to find someone boring and unattractive, and force yourself to like him.
Good to hear that he noticed you are a woman! I’m thinking he probably noticed at the outset but isn’t an AC or a playa. Now I see what slowing my roll and taking the time to discover someone and letting things unfold really means. The short cut seemed like I was cutting to the chase. Little did I know, it was just the chase. Three months is my goal. Good for you girl. I’m not going to do the naked, fantasizing, making sh*t up as I go route. It didn’t work, EVER. Thank you for the reassurance that it’s just two dates and it should be friendly and ordinary, although something as simple as making plans a week in advance is a bit extra-ordinary for me. I love hearing about your progress with the new bf and that you are at that point.
PS. I met a new gf at the gym. We had chatted for about a year but, of course, I wasn’t paying much attention. We went for happy hour last week and had a jolly time. It’s sushi this week. Just being available to make plans has brought a new person into my life. Steady and slow is the way I roll from now on, even tho it feels like like molasses. Molasses is way better than quicksand.