In the past, I’ve put up with some pretty shady stuff. It’s only with the benefit of hindsight, compassion, and forgiveness, I no longer cringe when I recall it. Instead, I see these acts of boundary busting behaviour as a reflection of what I needed to be and do to grow as an individual that wouldn’t experience this stuff anymore. I did the best that I could with the limited tools, experience, and reference points I had to draw upon. But until I realised I need to have limits, my various mishaps, relationship crashes, and even elements of my childhood, were deep sources of shame.
This is the feeling of embarrassment or humiliation that stems from a recognition that you’re engaging in behaviour or a situation that detracts from you. Shame deals a blow to your self-esteem through the loss of self-respect and self-trust.
Having little or no boundaries is like an invitation to offer people your back for them to walk all over you. They at best, take advantage and, at worst, abuse you. Looking back over my past, while I wasn’t hot on boundaries (I didn’t even know what they were), there were certain things that when they happened, I was like “Hell to the effing NO! I’m out“. I’d finally bail on a bad deal.
At a time of year when people engage in all sorts of craziness just because it’s December, which inadvertently then becomes reflective of how they want to move into a new year, it’s time to batten down your hatches, fix your broken windows, and know your limits.
A bad deal has gotta end sometime, sooner rather than later.
Each day I read and hear stuff about what people, primarily women, be and do in order to date or hold on to a relationship. Some of it is frankly scary. What’s clear is that some of you are reluctant or downright unwilling to break a relationship ‘deal’ no matter how flimsy, unfavourable, or dangerous it is. At what point are you prepared to declare yourself out?
A deal breaker is something that you cannot accept or overlook in a relationship. Its existence renders the relationship over.
In basic terms, code reds and, in some cases, code ambers are deal breakers. It’s essentially anything that signals that the relationship deal is not good to go. This includes signs of disinterest or half interest.
You need to construct deal breakers around the following premise:
Even if I’m wildly attracted to someone and they look how I’d like them to; the sex is great; we share similar interests, and I feel I love them, etc., what type of behaviours would they have to engage in for me to break the deal?
Every person needs boundaries and absolute limits to what they’ll put up with.
If you can’t end relationships no matter how bad they get, it’s like “I have no limit to what I’ll put up with, and my shame alarm is broken.”
Unhealthy relationships detract from you, sapping you of your self-esteem because you’re lacking in love, care, trust, and respect. This is all while morphing, twisting, bending and contorting in order to accommodate someone’s ‘less than’ treatment of you. Because you go against yourself, this also brings about a great deal of shame. This makes it even harder to step away because it feels like if you’ve behaved in a particular way, why would someone else want you?
Shame blocks the confidence you need in order to see a way out.
It can seem ‘logical’ to ‘make’ this person correct a poor situation and cancel out the shame. However, unfortunately all you end up doing is digging yourself into an even bigger shame hole. This leads to your losing all sense of yourself so you feel an even greater dependency on the very person causing you pain and the trophy of ‘winning’.
No relationship that you consider worth your investing your time, energy, emotions, and self in should ever cause you to feel shame because of what you be and do in order to maintain the relationship.
Shame equals the deal is off.
If you’re already engaging in embarrassing or even humiliating behaviour and/or are knee deep in an unhealthy situation, it’s like your shame alarm is broken.
The moment you recognise feelings of shame in your relationship as a result of what you feel compelled to be and do in order to ‘keep’ and ‘love’ this person is the moment your alarm should ring and you’re taking positive action for you.
Much like bullshit begets bullshit, shame begets shame. When you start down a path of doing things that you later come to regard as embarrassing, humiliating, or even downright abominable, if you don’t step away from the pain and shame source and declare yourself out, you’ll end up being like one of those gamblers that doesn’t know when to fold and is now gambling at a loss. You’re robbing Peter to pay Paul and continuing to gamble by any means necessary instead of folding. All for the sake of avoiding the feeling of ‘losing’, when in actual fact, you’ve already lost.
Your shame alarm should ring when you’ve tied how worthy you feel to someone else and it’s plummeting.
Your shame alarm should ring when you feel inadequate, not because you truly are inadequate, but because you’re being and doing things that send a message of not being good enough. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.
It should definitely ring when you feel the sting of embarrassment and humiliation. Hell, it should ring even louder when, after feeling the sting, you actually seek to do something else in some crazy plan to get away from the feeling and ‘prove’ the other person wrong.
It should ring when you do things that cause you to deviate from your core values and, in fact, cause you to be used, abused, or taken advantage of.
Think of shame like a notification emotion.
Your emotions don’t ‘notify’ all the time. You’re supposed to act on the notification. It’s a sign that you need to take care of yourself and that you’re in a situation or engaging in behaviour that sells you short. Don’t hold on to the shame and berate yourself. Fight for you.
The best way to let go of the feeling of shame that arises from seriously crossing your own boundaries is to step away. Retreat from the source of your pain that compels. The better you treat yourself and the more self-control you gain, the more that the feelings subside and fade away.
My ‘old best’ obviously wasn’t up to much by a long shot. Still, when I expanded my tools and knowledge, and looked beyond my childhood and previous experiences for references, my best has only continued to get better and better. So can yours. I would only still feel ashamed if I hadn’t moved away from these experiences and behaviour. My shame would stem from regret at recognising that I’d continued to do the same things to generate a different result instead of growing as a person in my outlook and behaviour.
It’s not important to have the last word, to tell them about themselves. You don’t need to convince them you’re good enough, or ‘make’ them change and adopt your values. There’s no need to be a people pleaser or to accommodate unhealthy behaviour. These are all distractions from getting on with your own life and being you.
It’s critical to have a limit and to opt out. The only person who can be you is you. If you keep busting up your boundaries and pretending to be something that you’re not, you leave the life you’re destined to have empty.
Your thoughts?
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Are you reading my mind Nat? Lol
I have been seeing someone for 2 months, until this morning. I have known him for a year and earlier this week we had some xmas drinks with friends and randomly he accused me of sleeping with another mutual friend. I was gobsmacked and let fly, but the next morning he apologises and said it wouldn’t happen again and that he was just drunk. I told him if it did happen again, we’re done.
Well it did happen again, last night. So I ended it. Feeling pretty crappy at the moment because that aside, it was probably the best relationship I’ve had in years even though it was short and sweet. If he can’t trust me there’s no point and there sure as hell wasn’t any truth to the shit he was accusing me of.
Anyways have a happy new year everyone xx
Often WE KNOW something is wrong! Our body tells us!
I don’t know if what i feel is “shame” its more an uncomfortable rising panic and distress, sweating, thoughts of “oh no, what will I do, this person is up to nooo good” when I KNOW this person is an assclown! But I want to be polite, not disappoint, play nicey nice, sacrifice, sacrifice.
I now know that if I feel panic, have alarming thoughts and generally feel like a trapped animal in a cage about to be run over… time to get out. I still fear what ‘other people’ might think of me, or if I pull the plug, but it has become much easier now.
Don’t feel bad about pulling the plug! They’ve already pulled the plug on YOU!
tired_of_assanova, who cares whatever it’s called, just act on it. Know yourself before you wreck yourself!
Kristin don’t feel badly; this ‘alert’ that you gave him about your boundaries, and his* immediately* overstepping them again…is all you need to know about this guy; he would have done that over and over if you had stayed….
You need to start the New Year with a better person-yourself-than with him. He would have just detracted from who you want to be and who you are becoming and are.
I believe he may have been “testing” you by doing it again. To see if in fact you had actual boundaries in place.
It also sounds like he MAY have a drinking problem which is something you want to avoid anyway.
Happy New Year.
F-l-u-sh Kirsten. Of course you feel crappy but who the hell wouldn’t in the same situation? The same thing happened to an acquaintance of mine – it’s a dead end without trust. You had to be a person of your word – his trust issues are his own.
@kirsten
congratulations for having standards of conduct!
I’d have done the exact same thing you saved yourself YEARS of heartache. My most recent ex was a drunk and worse if I had done what you did, I’d have saved myself a hear and a half of misery. Its taken a year and a half to get over all of the trauma.
PS
HE was projecting he’s the one with the wandering eye WELL DONE and again, congratulations for chosing YOU.
Yep Flower White – people with this type of behaviour don’t change. The more you appease, the unhappier you feel and it makes nod difference anyway. Even if you weren’t being accused of anything, being with a drunk isn’t good for a relationship.
Excellent post. I am trying my hardest to get real with myself… It’s an eye opening struggle to realize what I’ve allowed myself to become these past few months and WHY.
I’m assuming from the name Limerence that you that there’s a large element of you that feels that where you’re at is involuntary and out of your hands – you must take back your power and your mind to insert self-control into your life.
“….because it feels like if you’ve behaved in a particular way, why would someone else want you?”
And there you have the reason I’m afraid to date. I still feel some shame over taking a blatant jackass back repeatedly and sometimes feel like I’m “used goods”. Fact is, when I’m in social situations where I could meet someone I don’t feel attractive at all. It’s the weirdest thing – when I’m chatting with a man and one of my friends looks over to give me the “thumbs-up” so to speak, all I feel is ashamed and want to flee the scene! Nat, thank you so much for writing this. It’s exactly what I need to let go of.
Yep, I thought this might resonate with you Natasha. Remember what my job is Natasha? Yep, and it’s inspired by my experiences. I had plenty I could have felt ashamed about, but you’d be hard pushed to meet a woman without at least one AC skeleton in her closet. Don’t allow your past to own you. I told the boyf about the ex with the girlfriend not long after we were together. I was mortified but it was a part of my past. And the engagement. And the drunk. And the ex who had a fascination with Thailand and lady boys. Obviously I’m not in the same mindset I was back then – it reflected in my actions. You’re the same. Embrace you – past and all. You are not used goods – if you are, I should be going for 80% off. Give yourself a break. Be compassionate.
Nat, you are the best and thank you for reminding me that I’m not the only one and I need to give myself a freakin’ break! I was just discussing this very issue with a friend who is engaged to a wonderful guy and she was telling me that she logged into Facebook this morning and saw the new profile picture of a guy she had a drama-filled fling with years ago. The picture was of his bare behind. I kid you not. After we had laughed (and laughed…and laughed), she said, “Now THAT is some shameful sh*t.” Even though I’m no longer dating morons, there are still many moments when I’m reminded that I need to get over myself and stop thinking I’m the only one that’s had a hot mess or two!
I’m a very lucky woman to have you and the other ladies in my life that remind me that I need to be nicer to myself. Thank you a million times over and Happy (almost) New Year! 🙂
What were my limits – Obviously I didn’t have any for quite awhile since I stayed even though he cheated, left me for her and turned around and cheated on her with me.
…”All for the sake of avoiding the feeling of ‘losing’, when in actual fact, you’ve already lost”. Yeah the feeling of losing drove me to do anything back then to keep that relationship going until one day the seas parted, the angels sang, my eyes were wide open and the light went on. The little voice inside my head kept nagging at me for 18 months to get real and not let him treat me like a door mat which was really more of a booty call then anything else. NC and over 2yrs later its all so much better because I now have limits/boundaries and SELF RESPECT.
You know MaryC, when you slammed the breaks on that mofo, his ass was grass. It took you a while to get there, and it took you a while to get out of there, but when you reached your limit, you *reached*. He is a jockstrap and his web of lies and mind fuckery had a great deal of impact in your vulnerable state – a bit like you were there ‘first’ so it not seeming like you were the OW. Like a bad correction. But you’re better than being the OW to the woman that was screwing him behind your back. Talk about a switcheroo. FLUSH!
I’m in the amen corner with this post, having recently gone back to an asshat ex for an evening and being no stranger to the shame of rolling over for this man who is as bad as bad can be. I think the shame and the loss of respect for oneself is so dangerous–for all the reasons you mention, and also because shame is so painful that resorting to self-deception to avoid the shame and resultant pain becomes even more tempting.
Leslie, many, many people fall off the wagon (if it makes you feel any better, I fell off the wagon with the same jerk for 5 years) and that icky feeling is just your gut telling you to “FLUSH!” It happened, you’re done with him, don’t waste time shaming yourself over it. Easier said than done, I know, but you’re human and it happens. Onwards and upwards!
Getting rid of these guys is like breaking any habit – it can take many tries for most people.
Most smokers don’t quit permanently the first time they try. Many dieters can’t stick to their new eating plan once the “honeymoon” phase of the diet is over. Alcoholics? Incredibly high recidivism rate.
Falling off the wagon happens. A lot of us women really need a “suck it and see” moment before we say “Aha! I get it! He’s an assclown and I’m so out of here!”
🙂
“…shame is so painful that resorting to self-deception to avoid the shame and resultant pain becomes even more tempting.” Spot on Leslie.
Wow, Nat, this post is a huge relief to me tonight, as I’ve been upset and waxing maudlin over my alcoholic and feeling weak enough to text even though I’ve been NC for two months. Much of my behavior with men brings me shame, actually~chasing, calling, spying, using sex and what’s left of my looks (I’m not young anymore) to win them, mistaking the connection I feel for them in bed as one that he feels, too (he doesn’t). I know I’m being sent into a tailspin by the text messages from my exMM to his new lover that I received in error…ultra shame there. Thanks for reminding me to stay away from my pain source even though it beckons, and that my shame will pass.
blueberry girl, the “texts to his new lover sent to you in error” might be ploys. There may be no new lover. That may be his way to goad you, to poke you, to ping you. Ignore it (as you are doing) and keep your head up! Good for you! Stay strong!
I agree! “by accident” yeah right!
Blueberry
Try to see that the fact he is married (before you even get to the rest of his crappy behaviour) is an instant deal breaker. In fact he is a non-starter – MMs don’t even meet your entry level requirements. Keep telling yourself that. New boundary: you do not entertain married or attached men – NO exceptions. Block the number! Fight for you – do it now.
um yeah, those texts aren’t by accident.
he’s MARRIED. he’s gonna be extremely careful about who gets what text. pretty obvious those are for your benefit. to make your jealous or bring you back around.
he’s married, you never had him. now you can grieve the loss of a mental concept you had about him and about your relationship. the actual MAN, however, might as well be a stranger on the street. good luck with maintaining NC. i also would suggest you block his number.
@ requin, fearless & yoshizzle~ thank you. There are two separate scenarios going on here (sorry, cue the drama meter). There is no danger for me with the MM; I’m done. Our dalliance ended eight months ago. This is a new phone number he’s texting from, a pay-by-usage type, so I’m sure he’s feeling pretty secure about who he texts…but…who cares?
Unfortunately, his careless messages are exacerbating my loneliness and struggle keeping NC with a man I DO care about who left my state two months ago. It’s the latter that has me torn up and I don’t know why: he’s an alcoholic & it’s yet. another. FOCR. I’m feeling hopeless that I will ever meet anyone who passes Go.
blueberry
The first person we need to meet who can pass go, is ourselves. Look after the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves.
@ Fearless, you are wise. I just keep plugging away, doing my thing…Thank God for you gals who listen and take the time to care & respond. I’m prone to depression and the EU roller coaster certainly doesn’t help lift the mood!
Blueberry,
You know I’ve been there re the alky…I’ll post to you what I did before. Any relationship with an alky doesn’t actually exist. He may not even remember the texts. You are a stopping point, a refueling post if you like. It’s code red behaviour, absolute crimson.
Please just step away. You are worth more. Re-channel the intent to care, to florence, to engage to yourself. It works. The MM distraction is just that…ignore. You may be using one distraction to efface the other, Done that too. Just disengage and remember you. In the New Year, put you first.
Lynda ~ thank you for your continued support. It’s funny; I think I’m putting myself first by working out, singing, going out with friends, etc., but I still feel the emotional pain, fear and anxiety buried beneath all that surface “gaiety.” It’s as if I can only get to certain layers of my self-esteem, except the parts where real, lasting change happens. It doesn’t make sense that I’m still hankering over this man (absolute crimson, so true) yet I continue to obsess & daydream about him. I need to try harder to keep my finger off the self-destruct button.
Blueberry, hard as it may be to hear, you need to address your dependency on this man. His dependency is alcohol. Yours is him. You are not spending enough time addressing the fact that you persist in pursuing an alcoholic and you don’t see enough wrong to stay away. You want him to choose you over alcohol which would actually be him replicating the same addictive behaviour, just on *you*. If you truly give a damn about this man, leave him alone. Stop trying to draw this man into another codependent relationship. Address why a relationship like this would be attractive in the *first* place and let him sort out his own problems – they are his to sort out. He doesn’t need your pity, he doesn’t need your ‘love’, he doesn’t need your expectations and he doesn’t need the pressure. Let it be.
Amen to Nat’s reply Blueberry..if he’s going to get well, if ever, he will do it better, I kid you not, without you. Remove the safety net completely. An alky needs to hit his/her personal rock bottom to wise up.You are actually in way.
Another thing that may help. I went through two periods of helping the alky through rehab. I got him back as a charming, social butterfly,elegant,articulate man on the other side. Had a blissful(usually 4/5 month period tops..)period where I kidded myself all would be well again. I was in a vortex of co dependency.
Everything was in place, job, nice home, future….everytime it turned to ashes. Ultimately I bailed because of my son but still went back to check he was alright for another 6 /9 months. I see that now as the dark ages of my life. Waste of 4/5 years. Here is the rub. The alky actually got sober. Not sure if he still is but he seemed to be last time I heard. He still was a charming arsehole of a social butterfly though! Still using women,still shallow….
Would I nod to him if I saw him in the supermarket now…probably not. C’mon Blueberry. No self destruct button for you.
Not a mistake at all Blueberry – it’s all mind fuckery. The best way to stop feeling bad is to stop doing the things that make you feel bad, even though not doing them will make you feel bad initially, but only for the greater good. Have some self-control – these dipsticks aren’t worth you throwing yourself away.
Dear Lynda and NML,
Thankfully, I have left the alky alone and continue to maintain NC. My urge to text never materialized into action (yes!)
Here’s my truth and I’m ashamed to admit it. I am attracted to him for all the wrong reasons: 1) he’s exciting and unique (as you categorize in your book, Nat- the recycled teenager) 2) he’s young and attractive which leads me to 3) sexual chemistry and 4) chasing the high I felt when he gave me attention (rarely and now, non-existent).
These are terrible reasons to trade my self-esteem, respect and dignity. Especially since you pointed out, Lynda, that your alky didn’t stop being EU even when he stopped drinking.
Here’s a sobering thought (no pun intended). Is it safe to say I won’t be open to an available relationship if I keep carrying around this unlit torch?
Sticking to your values and maintaining your INTEGRITY in a relationship will help keep the shame & self-esteem from going in downward spiral.
With integrity, you won’t be compromising yourself in exchange of approval from others. I believe a healthy relationship consist of 2 individuals coming together with a good grasp on their own values, integrity and a rock solid mindset.
Happy New Years Nat!
xx Mika!
Thanks Mika and very true!
I can hardly admit to myself, nevermind to anyone else, how long and how low I’d sunk. My shame alarm was more than broken, it was obliterated. On one level (the thinking, logical part of my brain I guess) I knew that everything I was doing was contrary to my best interest, wasn’t getting me anywhere, and was causing incredible shame, embarassment, and self hatred (which in turn, made me lash out and hate everyone who wasn’t the AC). But of course on another level I didn’t know all this, or care; I was wrapped up in it, all I felt was the roller coaster of emotion, the deep, wretched, heart-wrenching pain and frustration of “never being good enough” to “keep him”. (Him that I never had in the first place because he’s a long distance mm). This post hits home in so many ways. I’ve been NC for 11 days now and doing better w/ it than I ever have (and w/ 15 years of this obsession under my belt, you can bet there have been MANY attempts at NC, which obviously I failed at every time). But I never had BR before! Thank you thank you! Changing the mindset of what NC is really for–taking back boundaries and loving one’s self–makes all the difference in getting through NC and moving on, and for the right reasons.
Another great post, Nat. Thanks.
“Don’t hold onto the shame and berate yourself – fight for you.”
Yes, I was so busy fighting for the relationshit that I forgot I should be fighting for me. Not ever reaching a ‘deal breaker’ was a huge problem for me. I knew there had been many, many deal breakers – I saw them, I knew them, I winced at them, I cringed over them, I cried over them, I became very angry (and ashamed) about them but I did not act on them; I kept on regardless, going back to the same old crap like a dog to its vomit, like I just could not contemplate my life or my future without him in it (and out of it and in it and out of it and in it again and again – like dancing the hokey-cokey till you die – it was relationshit groundhog day, as someone put it in a previous post); I had to win – at all costs, at any cost. And the cost was giving up on me. I am so glad I am not that woman any more – and if i live to be a hundred and fifty, I never will be that woman again, not for any man! I am fighting for me now; I have fished out all those alarms from the bottom of the cupboard, got new batteries, installed them all over the house and switched them to “ON” at the loudest volume. All thanks to you Nat.
lol relationshit.
That fearless…..is why I love you LMFAO
I love this fearless: “I kept on regardless, going back to the same old crap like a dog to its vomit”, funny I was just thinking that this week, but it was in relation to him returning to the behavior he told me about in his younger years.
You know I love when you say “relationshit” Fearless. You have come so far and your fighting talk is empowering. Look forward – he is in the dust of the past.
I’m so proud of my friend. She dumped her boyfriend on Christmas Day because he didn’t get her a gift. That was a dealbreaker for her and she fought for herself as you say.
ha! awesome. Now he’s the tool that got dumped bcuz he didnt get his gf a gift…and even if he tells the story a different way, HE KNOWS IT!! IT’S TOO OBVIOUS! LMAO!!
Wow good for her.
I’ll bet he didn’t see that one coming. ;o)
Feast to Famine – and often it really is that simple. It makes you wonder why guys don’t get dumped for being married, not calling, lying, beating, cheating, and stealing…
Thanks for this Nat! My shame alarm was broken for a couple months. I ashamed of my pathetic behavior, but was so addicted to the “highs” i got with him that i put up with the shameful lows. I allowed him to just call or text me whenever, and I’d come running over and hook up with him, only to be told I had to leave an hour later. It was awful. But I’ve moved away and am now in the process of healing. Thanks for your posts!
I’m glad to hear that you’ve moved away Brianna – never let a guy have you hopping to it for a crumb. At least you’re sorting yourself out – he still has the shame of being a man who treats a woman in such a despicable manner. What goes around comes around.
I have felt OVERWHELMING shame the last few weeks and have not been able to figure out why. So interesting that this was written.
Lo J, same here! Nat, are you doing a Dionne Warwick circa 1995 and becoming our Psychic Friend? 😉 However you manage to be so timely, we love you.
Feel out the feelings Lo J and take care of yourself. Maybe putting pen to paper and writing the equivalent of an Unsent Letter to yourself writing out your anger will put it all in perspective.
more from me as i read your post again. it has my name all over it:
“It can seem ‘logical’ to ‘make’ this person correct a poor situation and cancel out the shame, however, unfortunately all you end up doing is digging yourself into an even bigger shame hole, which of course will cause you to lose all sense of you so you feel an even greater dependency on the very person causing you pain and the trophy of ‘winning’.”
So, so true. that feeling of shame – that you are letting yourself down – makes you even more determined to be ‘right’, so that you can be vindicated. More than anything else I wanted to be vindicated. I see now that a deal breaker actually does *break the deal* – otherwise you’re just a doormat.
First of all this web site is amazing, I am in my fourth month of being away from Mr. attached and Mr. emotionally unavailable, he was one in the same. Three years I spent with this man, I am young, attractive, smart and educated and somehow I allowed this man to take myself esteem and self worth. It was hard as hell to finally walk away and I have never been gone from him this long BUT I can truly say I am never going back and I FEEL DAMN GOOD!!!!!!! I was Ms. emotionally unavailable, I realize my own issues with commitment as a result of a traumatic child hood and watching my mother make horrible man choices had me screwed up. I have made horrible choices in men and it took the rape of my five year old child and her sick father who allowed the rape by his own brother to send my spiraling out of control that led to professional help and revelation. The BAD choices we make in a mate can not only affect us it can effect the ONES WE LOVE THE MOST. Some days I don’t know if I can make it and wonder if my daughter will grow up to hate me for my bad choices but as we continue to seek therapy and I watch her smile reach her eyes I know I will move heaven and earth to make the change in her life that I made to late in my own. As I watch my mother still hold on to the horrible relationships she exposed me to, I now know I do not have to keep repeating this horrific cycle, my mother is my mother and me I’ve got to be a better me that has nothing to do with what I was exposed to. They say the sky is the limit but how can that be true when their are foot prints on the moon? Love yourselves before its too late.
Skye,
I am so sorry for what you went through, your story bought tears to my eyes. Giant Hug to you…..
Skye,
She won’t hate her mother, she will respect and love her for the strength and courage it took to do better XXX
Hi Skye, what a horrendous situation but you are dealing with it. I doubt very much that she will hate you – the key thing is that you are handling this situation now and doing everything in your power to create a better future for you both.
No, sorry Fearless, this post has MY name all over it! Perhaps we can share? I’d do anything not to feel the shame, including engaging the the precise behaviors which simply brought more shame. Damn it, no matter what I did, I was on shame cycle. I did every humilating thing Natalie describes Lather, rinse, and dry in shame.
I’m breaking through though, I think. I don’t want to have the last word or out him, although that’s still a fun thought since he’s so big on “family values” and I’m not keen on any politician who spouts such rhetoric while cheating on their wife. That’s politics, I guess. He’s not going to change and I much don’t care. I’ve changed, that’s what counts. No more shame for me. I hit my limit and ended up in the shame gutter. As my fire alarms go off cos they need new battries, I’ll think of every tweet as a shame alarm as I place new battries in the alarms. Shame is an amazing emotion. Thank you Natalie for this alarm. Hug your daughters tight. Mine just came home and she is darling, although at 22, she only kinda resists the hugs. Laundry is spining at this moment. She like when I fold her clothes!
runner
my ex EUM was a total hypocrite as well when it came to his supposed “humanitarian and religious values”. I was partly duped by my perception of what his values were. Apparently they didn’t apply to me! Your ex MM seems to think that ‘family values’ are for the faceless commoners out there – not for him?! (he’s above all of that!). One can’t help but wonder about all this shame we get to carry about with us and battle to purge ourselves of – do these men feel no shame? Pfft.
Have a lovely time with your girl! x
Yup, I’m with you Fearless. What do these dudes feel? Do they feel anything? I’m thinking folks who doth profess humitarian, religious, and family values may profess too loudly? It makes me mad cos I’m thinking of running for state office. I’d probably never have a chance being a Decline to State (DTS) but it may be fun. I’ve always been a giant fan of a third party in the US and a DTS may be just what is needed.
My kid is out being a happy 2o-something, hope yours is too. I’m always amazed and totally greatful that she is doing so great.
Maybe we did okay with our kids?
Runner,
“Maybe we did okay with our kids?”
We did. Long may it last! We must be proud of what we have achieved as mothers and as women. These men do not define us – they never have done. We were never that desperate and they are not that special.
I can think of a few limits; you are moving away and didn’t tell me, I found out online. Not good. Or I haven’t heard from you in…a month. So I broke down and emailed to see what you were doing for xmas. Oh, you went to Europe for xmas? Well, happy holidays, and I will be deleting your email contact now.
Anything besides consistent interest and respect is a deal breaker. Too busy? Me too.
I think we may have been seeing the same guy!! Only my guy that I met lied to me about his name, age, job,etc!! I would have no idea who he was had I not hired a detective. I lived on text crumbs. He communicated thru facebook. His account is under a fake name of an Italian soccer player. He also has a fake linkedin account as well. The only real thing about him was his body. So yes lots of shame. Boundaries not applicable to me. Only his wants needs were important.
J d, is this that woman again? Let it go. She’s not worth the energy and this isn’t a relationship. You deserve better than participating in all this ambiguity.
Ah yes, the last paragraph rings true. I’m fairly satisfied that i’ve been keeping NC even when he’s nosing about my workplace. I have decided that I don’t need to even make eyecontact, greet him as a customer, or acknowledge his presence at ALL if another coworker is present . (it’s pretty funny observing his reactions to this but really, I FEEL GOOD! I can blatantly ignore him and only dole out the slightest polite and business like behaviour IF i’m stuck with no other coworkers around. I don’t even make eye contact anymore. This is my realization, my decision, and it’s a friggin RELIEF i tell you.
but ahhh the satisfaction i’d feel now if i had gone total NC when he first suddenly blew cold??! omg! i WISH i’d known this stuff then.
And then at least i’d have walked away in confidence and self-respect.
I KNEW. It was totally obvious. But my abandonment-issues kicked in, and i didnt recognize them for what they were. Hindsight, eh!! HOw incredibly empowering it is to have the realization and then the power to take control and be the one to walk away! TO get your sh*t under control and be classy, self respecting, and confident.
Keep ’em coming, Nat!
“but ahhh the satisfaction i’d feel now if i had gone total NC when he first suddenly blew cold??! omg! i WISH i’d known this stuff then.
And then at least i’d have walked away in confidence and self-respect.
I KNEW. It was totally obvious. But my abandonment-issues kicked in, and i didnt recognize them for what they were. Hindsight, eh!! HOw incredibly empowering it is to have the realization and then the power to take control and be the one to walk away! TO get your sh*t under control and be classy, self respecting, and confident.”
Amen. Exactly my situation. If I’d only known a LONG time ago what I know now. Then again who knows if back then we would have been ready to absorb it. I had friends/family beating me over the head with truisms but I steadfastly refused to listen to any of it. I was addicted. Something about Nat’s posts, BR and all the replies from everyone, and very likely the timing being just right, have made it all hit home, FINALLY. And yes, the empowerment is beyond amazing. I cannot believe that in 13 days of NC I have felt not a single twinge to contact the AC. And that I am living, laughing, and doing things instead of moping, crying, sulking and suffering. That my AC thinks I’m doing the latter sort of bothers me, I’d rather he knew where I’m at now, but I’m not breaking contact to tell him so!!
Requin he knows you are not crying, sulking and tormenting yourself because you are not chasing him for love crumbs aka you have moved on.
Its as simple as that.
Ha, and well done you.
He may not even be thinking about what YOU are doing/feeling at ALL. Why would he now, if not before? You’ll know when it sinks in that you’re actually NC for good…when he starts to reach out in some demented way.
Anyhow, thinking about what HE’s thinking is still part of the addiction. It’s feeding the wrong wolf, but in disguise.
Try to let go of whatever he is thinking or not thinking. It will suddenly or slowly dawn on you that YOU were never really SEEN to start with. YOU weren’t important..only what you made him feel.
Also, if he KNEW how you are now, what good would it do? Do u think he’d somehow think better of you, and realize his assholery? No. And if he knew, and somehow DID think “wow what a cool chick, look how awesome she is doing without me, wow, she’s so strong” …then what? then he’s attracted again, and comes crawling around convincing you HE’S changed and maybe you fall for it. Better not to think about it at all. If I had gone total NC the first time around, I think i’d feel better and more confident, but ultimately, the fact that i eventually went NC and stuck to it, is prize enough. good luck!
I know all that. I really do. I know thinking about what he’s thinking is part of the addiction, etc etc. But I’m only 2 weeks into NC so it’s to be expected. Also, and I’m sorry to harp on this, but we have 15 years of bullshit under our belts together. It’s only normal for me to want him to notice that things might finally FINALLY be different. Of course I know I never meant anything to him. How much do you think that has tortured me over the years? I know that quite well!! I also know he isn’t thinking about me much, if at all, at this stage. But I’ve known him and done this dance w/ him a LONG time. I know how it works. By around the 3 month mark–(classic)– he’s either going to come sniffing around or very strongly wondering/wishing if I’ll be coming around.
Yea so what, right? Nothing. I do have a right to wonder. I do have a right to want him to think, as you say, “this is a cool chick who isn’t begging anymore.” The key word is ANYMORE. I care a lot more what *I* feel about myself now, about how my shame has already gone way way down since I’ve stopped contact, but I can’t help but want to make SOME impression on this guy, even w/out saying a word, that YES I am worth it, NO I’m not a doormat as I led him to believe for over a decade. I dont’ see anything wrong w/ wanting to think/feel those things. I dont’ want him back. This isn’t a game.
Requin, if you’ve been doing this for 15 years and you obviously think it means a lot, it’ll take at *least* a few years, if not 15 of them before he might notice you’re serious. You say it’s not a game but you use game talk. If a man thinks that a woman has 15 years to throw away on a long distance thingamajig with a married man, he’ll think you’ve got all the time in the world. The question is – do you? How much time have you got to invest in thinking about what he might be thinking? Of course your feelings are natural – when you’ve been doing this for 15 years, to resist doing something different is to be expected. But you either want to end this or you don’t. Your choice. No point in getting defensive about it – it would have been better to use that energy on yourself.
Yoshizzle, it’s important to focus on having proportionate response and making him into the little man in your life. He’s just a customer, that as you say, can be served by anyone else. He’s not your boyfriend, he’s not your friend, and you don’t give a shit about him anymore. Do not give him even a fingernail of power and start treating him just like any ‘ole Joe.
The perfect blog before the new year. I have just got myself out of a 6 month affair on Christmas day. I fell for all the promises of a ‘honest cheat’ I love you, we will be together when the time is right, my wife and I are as good as separated… Funny that it’s never time to leave though. Excuse after excuse if it wasn’t money issues it was the respect he’d lose from his family and friends. My limit came when I last slept with him he’d changed from his loving self to just seeing me as a piece of meat. Then it hit home I doubt I’m the only one. He’s paid for numerous hookers and had one night stands before but I truly believed he wanted to change and get away from the life of lies hes been living. Even when his wife became suspicious he couldn’t even lay the truth out then. The limit comes when you realise you can’t change them, you can’t save them and you don’t trust them. This man has met my family, friends, supported me at my grandmothers funeral, half committed by cutting a key to his apartment, showed me dreams and beautiful memories but I will leave that all behind in 2011 and move on with my new found boundaries for 2012.
Leann,
Good for you. Get away from him and stay away – fight for you. Life is better than giving yourself up to man’s whims and sexual impulses.
“The limit comes when you realise you can’t change them, you can’t save them and you don’t trust them.”
Well said! I finally understand in full colour that I do not and cannot trust this man (ex EUM arse). With that comes a blessed end to it all. Roll the credits.
Now that I get that he is not and was never to be trusted, I find myself re-living and re-seeing all the many moments when I should have folded, when I should have been fighting for me (not fighting my instincts, which were screaming at me not to trust this person). I see so much of what went on now in a whole different light. So many light bulb moments – but it’s now like the floodlights have come on.
Leann, your post and some others on here really make it clear how utterly pathetic these married cheating men are. One day if their ‘shame’ meter doesnt go off, they will be broken down old fools with noone. I know a few of them right now.
Leann, unless you desire to be with a sex addict, being with someone that’s paid for numerous hookers and had one night stands, never mind being married shouldn’t be on your agenda. There was also a flaw in your plan – how could you believe that he wanted to change? A man who shags hookers and has numerous one night stands that wants to change, doesn’t doing it by knocking off another woman behind his wife’s back. He may have met all of these people, but it’s like taking a cardboard cut-out as a stand in for a real man in a real relationship. In fact, introducing a married man and pretending that you have a relationship, is like having an escort – it’s just play acting at life. You’re better than that.
Leann,
Hi, I read your post tonight, then went back to it to confirm I’d read it properly. Few things shock me but a man who is coming with you as a partner to your gran’s funeral,still married,giving you a key to his apartment(Did he meet the hookers/escorts there??? I am shuddering for you) Sleeping with you, then treating you differently…keep that in mind, it will keep you away from him!
I will go further than say that you cant trust, save,change him…you shouldn’t touch him with a bargepole!
He was using you as a prop in his own personal fantasy. Yuckety Yuck.
The pull of memories is extreme. It is real actually, you made them too though, not just him. However, what you are experiencing now are the nightmares of shame,piece of meatdom(been there). Stay out of this,he is a bad lot indeed. Be thankful you wised up at 6 months.
Thank you for all your words they really help. It was a rollercoaster 6 months, he was such a respected man at work (luckily I’ve left that job and have a new job in an industry far away from that one) I really thought there was a good side to him. When we went out he was so willing to bare his soul and tell me everything like he’s had it bottled up throughout his 10 year marriage. You sit listen take in their problems and then begin to take them on as your problems too. Its an awful spiral downhill. You believe your unique and that you can help them. This man has everything money, beautiful wife, beautiful houses and a great career yet there’s something hugely lacking from his life. I’m glad he’s out of my life and we’ve had no contact even though he turned up at my family home while I was at work after getting kicked out again by his wife at home. Luckily my parents dealt with that! Part of me is glad I kept honest and true to my family and friends about him as they have helped support me to let go of this. The strange thing is I’ve let go of him but I can’t get his wife out of my head. I know it’s a bit late now to think of her. She’s always seemed so detached to me like I barely believe he’s married. But unprotected sex with women and even cutting keys for his OW for the apartment they have together. Scary she’s so unsafe and doesn’t realise or know. She’s the real victim in all this. Any advice on letting go of the shame and guilt to the sisterhood? I know I Need to let go of the shame and guilt, learn from this and move on for 2012!
Leann, yes I felt shame about ex’s last girlfriends and his ex wife. I was never the OW, although like yours, my guy was scanning dating site horizons for titallation(Also odd sex e mail to fall backs etc). I felt and still feel a bit of shame that I believed what he told me about his exes. They were all ‘flawed’ in his eyes. I actually tried to be their polar opposite for a while to make him happy.
But…you know, I have to let this go. He made up stories about them, they were cold,selfish,promiscuous etc. He will make up stories about me. I say to myself, you were not insightful enough, you believed what you wanted to for a while, you were capable of being duped. You did not care about yourself enough…but I do not think I was a bad person. In the end you have to make sense of it and move on. His wife will cotton on eventually. It is healthier for you, for me,for anyone in this situation to stay separate from the angst and drama. I have disengaged, almost, and go forward. To 2012! Leann.
Also, Nat, I gotta say…..once yer out and clear headed and back in love with yourself, the whole idea of dating isn’t as scary. Once you know you’re boundaries and a couple of deal breakers, the idea of feeling worry/sick/panicky etc over what a guy may or may not be doing or feeling, is rediculous!!! If the guy is shady, it’s no big deal to opt out, cuz you trust yourself, your instincts and know the red flags…and walk out feeling good, clear, and able to enjoy the peace of being solo.
Seconded.
Boundaries, self-care, and the like have helped me become MORE trusting, not less. I realize that it’s my choice, not the other person’s, as to whether I will continue interacting and in what way I’ll participate. It’s great to not have that helplessness and apprehension like in the past.
yes! isn’t it a trip to realize it can be YOUR choice!? it’s a frame of mind, i think. and you can’t see it till you’re there.
“I realize that it’s my choice, not the other person’s, as to whether I will continue interacting…”
Now, there’s a novel concept! I am so accustomed to dancing to a man’s beat, twisting myself like a pretzel so he desires & wants me that I forget I have a choice in the matter, too. It’s a relief to remember my own power; thanks!
Once again you’ve hit the nail right on the head! The one thing I have felt throughout the whole situation is shame! I feel ashamed because I’ve allowed someone that I’ve known for a hot minute to define me. I’ve been NC for approx 11 weeks but I remember after 2 weeks I was sitting at home unable to sleep or eat and wondering why he didn’t want me. At 37 years old this had never happened to me, I was drafting txt messages to him (that I didn’t send) begging for answers, I kept deleting then re-entering his number in my phone, thinking of ways to win him back (eg offering a booty call) and over thinking the whole damn thing! I was a mess! I was doing all this for someone that really didn’t or doesn’t give a damn about me or my feelings. It embarases me to think I would do or even think that way. However, I managed to get pass that stage and I haven’t contacted him, if I’m honest every now and then the thought swiftly crosses my mind but I won’t do it. I’ve read too many comforting stories from women on this site who have endured worst than me. If they can do it so can I! I’ve made a promise to myself that in 2012 I’m going to enjoy my life more and not waste any time with any EUM. Best wishes for the New Year ladies!
Stephanie, let the hot minute be your warning alarm that you are a Fast Forwarder. To be driven to the point means that you were high on faux intimacy – it’s like trying to speed up what happens in a relationship into an instant £9.99 package. I’m glad you’re over the worst. Never hand over your power to any man and slow your roll. He isn’t the definition of you. Unless he’s discovered the key to eternal life and youth, take him off his pedestal.
I’m sure you read my mind today Nat. I have reached the final deal breaker in a relationship that has taught me so much about myself that I am finally able to walk away. Not in shame, nor in hate, but with a clear understanding of what I will and will not accept. Two and a half years ago I was a broken wreck. Having survived my husbands death and a very nasty tangle with a vicious cyberpredator, I met a man on a dating website and began to see him. He challenged me. He pushed me. He helped me establish clear and strong boundaries where before I had none. He helped show me who I am and what I am capable of. Unknowingly, he helped me grow up and become the strong woman I am growing to be.
And for that I love him. And I respect him. And I wish him all the very best in his broken life – for like me, he too is a broken person. I don’t hate him. I don’t wish him harm or bad luck. I wish he could find his truth and be free. Like he has helped me find for myself. I will never stop loving him, but I love myself more now. Its time to walk away.
We can’t fix each other. I don’t trust him and he doesn’t trust me. He keeps going back on the dating website where we met. He says ” I know you are on there, I only joined to catch you…”
But I’m not on there – I put up a bogus profile to catch him because I knew he was on there cheating on me. That makes it my bad, too.
We can’t get past that. There is no trust between us. No belief. That’s my deal breaker. I can’t tell him the truth because he won’t believe me. He can’t tell me the truth because it would blow his cover. Not that I’d believe whatever he told me, anyway.
It’s over. My heart hurts. But I thank him so much for all the lessons and all the love.
And thats it for me. End of story. I will not have another relationship with a man. I’ve had enough. I’m too old and too scarred to go through it all again. Thank you Nat. Your columns, your words – they have helped me get through this last couple of years. I appreciate and am so grateful for your wisdom and I wish you all the very very best for now and evermore.
xoxox
Marg
so sad. but you are doing the right thing.
why do they manage to f**k it all up with cheating?
selfish brats.
Aw Marg,Yes you did right thing. Like you, I recognise the strengths of my ex now but he was a sniffer round the dating sites too. No trust. He had ‘cyber fall back’. I think when things were going well he would never have acted on it but even the fact that it was set up….shudder. I couldn’t believe that he was saying one thing to me and ‘winking’ at other women.
It’s like the ultimate EUM tool, they tell us the words of love, we may be their main squeeze but if things even go a bit wrong..he can have a night of titillation on the net..
It’s not on. It is however going on everywhere.
My ex was a cultured,successful man. In anybody’s eyes our relationship should have been enough but it wasn’t. I feel no shame at all because of this… I feel shame for him.
But, you recognise one thing,the trust would continue to be a problem..its the dealbreaker.
If he, your guy, my ex, had got this. How the trust is skewed by this behaviour…have looked to understand it. Perhaps there is a slim shot of talking.. I know however, that my ex did not ever accept what he had done was wrong.
I think he still does it, will continue to do it whatever relationship dynamic he finds himself in in the future… I would be looking forward to shame.
This behaviour as well as being disrespectful..is code red. It’s bail time. You made the right call.
In my experience, guys like this simply do not care that it’s wrong. They have all the easy options available, (cyber dating, online porn, bars, whatever) and they simply don’t care about being faithful.
I’m not saying ALL men. I’m saying guys who do it. They seem to have lost a conscience. Scary really.
Marg, it sounds like you’ve been through a hell of a journey and well done for doing the right thing – one of you had to do it and it’s best that it was you. This sounds very painful and I understand your reluctance to try again. All I will say is grieve, go about your business and maybe you won’t have another relationship or maybe you will. Either way, it shouldn’t stop you from going on to enjoy your life.
Marg, you are not a broken person. You are strong for walking away from a bad situation, you are a survivor and you protected yourself when you felt you couldn`trust him, which is damn site better than living in denial. So you have courage to face the reality and you have trust in yourself. I think you are an inspiration.
I know about shame. Week before thanksgiving mm is running low on cash because the company works for had ended one job and the other one hadn’t started. He gives me this sad story about how he can’t pay his cell bill and won’t be able to talk to me but he will do anything in the world to find a way. Funny he hadn’t been talking to me just texting. Well of course I offer to pay it,I give him $300.00 and he talks about how awkward this is is for him. How much he loves me and feels like I want to take care of him,something he has never had. He then proceeds to text me every night telling me how much he loves me,for a couple of weeks. Then 2 or 3 days go by and I don’t hear from him, I text him asking what had happened. I get back from him “I have been busy working and I go to bed earlier. Honestly I’m disappointed this has happened again. Every time we don’t talk for a few days you act like the sky is falling.” This cold message after the week before he said he never wanted to lose me. So of course I apologize. I don’t hear from him several days. The week before christmas I send him a text and ask how things are going. He tells me has me a gift and wants to see me Christmas Eve I say ok and rush out and buy him an expensive jacket I had heard him say he wanted. Christmas Eve goes by with not a word. In fact haven’t heard from him at all. Not even a merry christmas on christmas day. I think, I hope I have reached my limit. How much more shame from him can I take?
ms.option you’ve had enough NOW today… a man who doesn’t contact you on Xmas doesn’t deserve another thought, less on an expensive jacket!!
You will not go back to him! He’s married and clearly using you. Please don’t make any excuses for him just do it NO CONTACT 🙂
ms option
quite a lot apparently. You need judge judy to come round and shout some sense into you!
And don’t “hope” that you’ve reached your limit. You can hope for rain, hope for a white christmas, hope that the bus will turn up on time. Your limit is not something you hope for, it’s something you set.
I am shrieking this loudly:
YOU, YOU, YOU DECIDE!!
Take that expensive jacket back immediately!! and buy yourself something with the money =p
I HATE HATE HATE men who say they’re “too busy” to see you or speak to you or sent you a PATHETIC text… who the hell do they think they are? the prime bloody minister? i think not… i have also as someone else has said “dug out my shame alarms and replaced all the batteries”
x
Option
I’m with groundhog. You already paid his phone bill. You were repaid with a lot of text messages – which he felt obliged to send. Now, as far as he’s concerned, he owes you nothing. Take that jacket back and reclaim your cash. Never spend money on another woman’s husband. Stop fighting to hold on to doormat position with this using, selfish, deceitful man and start fighting for yourself and your own life.
Amen Ms Option, he’s a no good, lying, using, cheating, heartless, useless, excuse-for-a-man who has no integrity and is shocking by the virtue of having no shame in taking your money and throwing you a few text crumbs in return. Which, by the way, are totally insincere. He’s just securing his next ‘loan’ from you by giving you some fake empty shallow lying love words BY TEXT !!, it’s all meaningless nonesense. He’s a horrible low-life. My ex MM tried to get £3000 from me via an offer to paint my son in oils, this is after I’d fed and housed him on and off for 3 years or so. When I looked on his website, he had 5 or 6 paintings all done for his ex’s, all paid for by them. He uses women up, takes their hospitality then fleeces them for money for crappy paintings they likely dont even want.
Your guy needs deleting as fast as possible because you can do so much better than him. Any guy taking money from his chick in that manner is a non-starter.
Being alone is way better than being with him.
2012 is a new year with positive new beginnings for all of us.
XX Kim XX
Groundhog Day
I’m with you on that one! Do you know how many times I heard “babe sorry I haven’t called, but work has been so hectic” or “I have been thinking about you but its been a hectic week” at first I believed him but after you hear it 3-4 times it gets a bit tiring and its pathetic! If any other man says that to me again, I will just flush immediately!
Well the dude is married and cheating on his wife, that is the first clue that he is no good. I’m always amazed that the ow’s on here are surprised at the other azzclown behavior when the very first sign(cheating) should have been a red flag. At least if an EUM/AC guy is single and available it takes a few moments or more to find out he is a jerk. There is no waiving red flag called ‘married’.
This one takes the cake though. If I was his wife I’d be embarrassed to be with such a loser.
Totally agree!
Sorry, but the guy is married, how can you expect loyalty, honesty or a relationship.
I agree with everyone else. Return the jacket and then proceed to go no contact. If he meant what he had said before about not wanting to lose you then his actions would be matching his words. I am a firm believer that even if you are busy, you can muster a phone call or even a simple text which takes almost little to no effort. Think of all the people in your life who are important to you and who care about you. Are they too not busy with their own lives? Yet I bet they make time to see you/talk with you because you matter to them.
My situation was very similar in the sense that he was “busy.” I let it go because I know how life can get hectic sometimes so I gave him the benefit of the doubt etc. From that point onwards he never really contacted me, I was the one doing all the contacting (which was opposite from the beginning) and even then he said nothing of substance. Just that he “missed me,” although he never made plans to see me. I regret having kept things up with him any further from that point on and inflating his ego by continuing to contact him, to make plans etc. He kept feeding me the “busy” story when I was away on vacation when I inquired how he was only then to find out that he was spending time with some other girl. Hmmm, guess he wasn’t too busy after all. I know it’s difficult but you really do need to walk away from this individual. You deserve so much better!
ms option, I agree with everyone else. I did almost exactly the same thing w/ a long distance EU mm for fifteen, count’em FIFTEEN years. I got that similar treatment where when you don’t hear from him for a while and ask what’s up he says you are “pushing”..I got that more times than I can count. It was always ALWAYS about his agenda and never mine. I too hate the words “too busy”, that’s a huge hot button for me now because I got it all the time from him. Then I’d see he was on ebay buying things. Too busy my ass. A man will do anything, ANYTHING, for a woman he loves/wants. Nothing will stop him. He doesn’t want you, you are a fallback girl. Please, please, don’t end up like me, stuck and trapped w/ no self-esteem, no dignity, and nothing but crumbs and b.s. and heartache for FIFTEEN of the best years of my adult life. End it now. You can do it. Take back your dignity NOW.
May I say one thing with regards to Ms Option’s situation. The top line information is that the man is *married*. Everything else is beside the point. There can be no more obvious deal breaker/non starter than *married*. It’s over before it began.
from that whole story the thing that bugs me the most is that little mind trick they play . call u every day then blow cold, disappear, and when you ask what happened, they say with disdain how “you” are being _______. Sic.
what a cold dude. what do u want him for anyhow?
Ms.Option, I’d love to think that this is the end of the line for you both but your last sentence suggests it might not be and so I guess I’ll know it’s the end of the line when you’ve been NC for several months and have completely let go of this man. It wasn’t that awkward for him – he took the money, sprinkled you with some texts which is ironic given that he mentioned not being able to talk, and then blanked you. Sadly you have money to burn and got him a jacket, although I think I read that you returned it. He’s not your man – you shouldn’t be buying him gifts and paying his bills. That’s practically gigolo territory. This man is shameless!
Thank you for this post!! All I can say… just needed to read this today. I already made the decision to let go, just ran into a rough day today. This post has helped me through.
Glad to help!
Natalie – Another great post. This was exactly what I needed to read tonight.
It’s like you wrote it for me. I’ve heard about the little nagging voice we all have that we need to listen to, but to have it presented as our shame alarm really made me take notice.
Thanks,
i read these posts and revel in them … because they remind me how lucky i am to be OUT. i don’t mean to gloat but i can say for anyone still stuck with a bad man or on the fence or newly in NC, being OUT from under is glorious.
there is a lot of trepidation to leaving …. like skydiving or getting on a roller coaster or any other “risky” thing … but once you have done it, you fly high.
i admit to moping a bit lately but when he showed up to seek me out, i got the power again and am so happy i took action and quit him.
now i have no bad feelings, no shameful feelings, no guilt feelings … nothing to tell me that i am less. really, love and romance brings hope and happiness … not the crap the described men on this board bring.
unless the guy improves! your life … he is not the one. ejecting them brings great relief. it’s so true. it’s like the success of being on a diet and shedding 170 lbs. of jerk. a time to celebrate.
Wow! Things rings true. I’ve done the whole begging-pleading-repeatcalling-spying-facebookstalking-anything I could do to get him- thing, and that left me heartbroken, empty, and damn near crazy.I was okay with soaking up as much pain as he dished out as long as he chose me in the end. Even though I was humiliating myself, by calling someone who would just hang up, I couldn’t stop. I really hoped something would change. Like he would magically remember how much he loved me and put my suffering to an end. I just felt like after going so far I had to win. I didn’t. The end came when I called him and convinced him not to hang up on me right away. I started talking and I could hear his friends laughing at me in the background, and then he chuckled a little and said in a very condescending tone “you’ll come up with any reason just to talk to me–we’ll talk about this later”. I was crushed.
It was as logical as 1+1=2 to “make” him talk to me and “make” him see how much I loved him so he would take me back, but “unfortunately all you end up doing is digging yourself into an even bigger shame hole, which of course will cause you to lose all sense of you so you feel an even greater dependency on the very person causing you pain and the trophy of ‘winning’ ”.
I thought the only thing that could possibly make everything better was him. We’d get back together and everything would be fine… That never happened. I finally stopped contacting him and reaching out to him, but getting him out of my mind has been a challenge. I saw him two weeks ago. I walked by him as if he was a stranger on the street. I was proud of myself. There was a little anxiety when I first saw he was at the same place I was, but I was able to shake it off and enjoy the program I had come to see. I’ve come a long, long, long, way.
For a long time I really struggled with the shame of how I pursued him, how I didn’t fold when it was clear a relationship wasn’t in the cards, how I still longed for him. I was ashamed (and still am a little) of how he laughed at me, how his friends laughed at me. I’m really ashamed at how desperate I was, and that I allowed him to see it. I was at my most vulnerable and to him I was just some “crazy chick” who wouldn’t stop calling. Even though I’m not that person anymore I wish I had handled the whole thing with more dignity.
I learned a LOT. This person sounds totally devoid of empathy- laugh down the phone! What en ego!
Guys like that get off / get their ego inflated when someone is desperately chasing. I had a friend call it “crawling” – yeuch! I found the harder you pursue they more they back off until you’re just running the show yourself and they aren’t even on stage anymore.
I felt a DEEP sense of shame (what was I doing there!, why did I put myself there! why did I take so little! How could I do this to myself!) because, on reflection, I literally saw myself like some kind of third party vision at exactly the position I was in. And how crappy it was.
Months I was so hard on myself, beating myself up and having swarming thoughts of coulda woulda shoulda. These are the things that made me feel better and eventually recover:
0. Psycologist. There was a wait but I had to get down there ASAP before I went crazy.
1. They are an ASS CLOWN. (If they were really a truly caring, loving, empathetic person, they would not have done what they did.)
2. If they really wanted to be with me, this would not have happened and they would not have acted the way they did.
3. I don’t need to tell anyone (except maybe my psych and friends) I don’t want to about what happened (just walking down the street I felt bad, like everybody secretly knew) until I realised no-one can see inside your mind. And if they don’t know, how can they judge you? It’s me judging (very harshly) myself… and if I was the judge AND the person being judged, I could officially pardon myself…
which brings me nicely to
4. I had to get out a piece of paper and “officially” write myself a licence to make mistakes and do stupid things and be rude when necessary. Yeah I did stupid things, but I don’t have to do that ever again and no-one else has to know about it unless I tell them. This cut the shame right down. Hell, why do Assclowns get to do all manner of shoddy stuff and NOT feel bad about it! THEY are the ones who should be ashamed!
5. I had to stop being so hard on myself. I thought I would never recover but I did.
@tired: you have it all down; “They are an ASS CLOWN. (If they were really a truly caring, loving, empathetic person, they would not have done what they did.)” and also that you don’t have to tell anyone about it but who you want.
Shame is insidious; it is a “gift” that the shame-filled dubiously carry around but realistically if someone else were carrying it around and we saw what they were ashamed of, we would often have nothing but compassion for them…we need to not only give that to others but also give it to ourselves….
Thank you for your encouraging words. I have a therapist and with her help I think I’ve gotten through the worst of it. The thing is my ex and I have the same social circle and he told other people. So now I’m kinda know as “the creepy stalker girl”. You know how it is when someone tells only their side of the story and everyone believes them. It’s tough sometimes when people see you and automatically think they know all about you based on some jerks assessment of events.
But you’re right I don’t EVER have to do that again or be that person again. I don’t think I’m that person anymore. I know no one will ever hurt me like he did. Time to give myself some compassion.
Ugh! I once asked someone on a date (ok, it was a bit out of the blue), they turned me down and then they bragged about it to all their friends and my colleagues to make them look like The Big Man.
There were many friends that I could call ‘unavailable for friendship’ they wouldn’t spend time with me, I hardly ever see then, and it got to the point where I asked myself whether we were friends or not… until I realised I could just get new ones.
I’d suggest getting new friends to hang with. Life is renewable you can make mistakes *and get away with it* if you allow yourself to.
Dee-Dee you get a big hug from me. One day you wont even think about him anymore and you’ll probably even laugh about all the crazy things you did. Your post made me think about some crazy stuff I did and I am just chuckling about it now (ok I am cringing a little but smiling at the same time). I wish you all the success in the world. It sounds like you are going in the right direction now.
YOU handled it like a human being.
HE handled it without dignity.
And ignoring him as you pass is great if it feels right. But, don’t do it if you don’t feel it. YOu can look at him. you can even meet his eyes. you dont have to pretend you aren’t sad and hurt that it’s over. You can be authentic…whether that is looking at him or ignoring him.
I love this post but how do you know when you get to a dealbreaker as opposed to “this is the for worse bit in for better or for worse”? I’ve given him a second chance- should I not? I can definitely relate to shame that he cheated and shame that I took him back but isn’t it possible that he’s actually telling the truth and not everyone is once a cheater always a cheater? How do you tell when it’s ok to call dealbreaker and when you’re just making your life harder?
I’ll never be free of him, we have 2 kids. Realistically I will never marry again- I’m fat and forty and was never that physically attractive even at 24 when we got together. Am I trading the hard work of living with a broken-but-mending man for the loneliness of a middle aged single woman? I don’t envy my friends who are single still. Life to me only has meaning in a pair.
So when is calling it quits better than trying to mend the relationship?
And no I don’t mean *accepting* it as is of course!
Wife
“for better for worse” covers sickness, redundancy, foreclosure, war, feast , famine, the death of a child. Things that you face TOGETHER. It doesn’t cover him treating you like crap. It doesn’t cover adultery. Even the most fundamentalist religious nut would grant you a get-out for adultery.
Hopeless wife:
“Am I trading the hard work of living with a broken-but-mending man for the loneliness of a middle aged single woman? I don’t envy my friends who are single still. Life to me only has meaning in a pair.”
You are entitled not to envy your middle aged single friends, but do you think they envy you (or other married women whose husbands are/have cheated on them)?
I wouldn’t assume single people are lonely or unhappy – life to you may only have meaning as a pair but it’s wrong to imagine that all other people share your view. Being one of a couple is not a sure-fire cure (or prevention) for loneliness or unhappiness – if it was you would be off enjoying the fruits of happy coupledom right now.
There are many ways to live a good life – all equally valid. I am middle aged and single and while I see some good marriages around me, I also know lots of miserable and very lonely married women that I wouldn’t swap places with – not in a thousand years of solitude.
fearless
me neither. words cannot express my joy when i come home from work, put the light on, yell “hello FEESH (fish), i’m home”. It’s so utterly peaceful and paid for with my own money. To me, that’s way better than coming home to some bloke who may not even be there cos he’s off drinking with his mates/shagging around or who I want to kick in the shins for a misdemeanour. And then having to cook us dinner?!
I’m not lonely at all. I’m much less lonely than when I felt trapped in crappy relationships. They sap the life and joy out of you. I’d cut myself off from other people cos I was so miserable.
I spent christmas with three couples – three generations. Lovely day. They were happy couples (I’m not anti-relationship) and it was good to spend time with them. But, oh, it was marvellous to go home alone and yell, “hello FEESH!!”
I’m going to take this opportunity to repeat what one of the three wives said at Christmas “He’s always been faithful to me, 66 years”. That would be worth giving up singledom for (though I don’t have 66 years left), nothing less.
Hey Grace
I relish being at home – too much I think. There’s a big difference between being lonely and being alone. I like my own company – it’s peaceful and anxiety free. I never felt so lonely as I did when the EUM was on ‘cold’. I came to realise (or to finally admit to myself) at the end that I felt very lonely and unhappy when he was in the same room as me! I finally admitted to myself that his presence often made me anxious and that I had always tried hard to bury that feeling. Once that cat was out of the bag I couldn’t put it back in again… and so the end was nigh. I don’t have feesh but I do have a 22 yr. old daughter who lives at home with me. When I come home I shout from the door ‘who’s in?!” and if she’s home she shouts back ‘Who’s out?!’ A silly thing we’ve been doing for years but it still makes me chuckle. Sorry am babbling now off topic. There is no shame to carry around with you when you’re single – lots of shame to humph around in relationshits with EUM/AC/cheating MMs.
Grace – “hello feesh”! Thanks for making me laugh this morning. I always love reading your comments as they are always so wise and to the point. Not to mention very funny.
I’m 29 days NC today, after my shame alarm screamed once too often. I’m so proud of coming this far, after almost three years of allowing myself to be treated like an option. NO MORE.
For the first time in ages, I’m really looking forward to a New Year. No more waiting for the phone call/text that never comes. No more waiting to see when I can see him again (ALWAYS on HIS terms). No more feeling lower than something he stepped in. NO MORE. Enough.
I’m 50 and have two fantastic sons, now grown up and left home. I don’t have “feesh” to come home to, but I do know that feeeling of utter joy, when I open my front door, knowing that I’m not going to get my ex husband’s cold shoulder/hangover or spending another night waiting for my ex AC to show me how little I mean to him.
I have been on BR for over a year now and have loved all you ladies and all your comments. When I feel I’m slipping down the slippy slope to self pity and shame, another visit to BR brings me straight back up again. LOVE IT. You have all been like friends to me in my moments of despair – can you imagine what a laugh we’d have on a BR night out? I truly thought I was alone in this predicament, but it’s so comforting to see how many of you have come out the other side, stronger and totally clued up to all the AC shenanigans. As I said before, NO MORE.
My shame alarm is back in full working order and switched to the most sensitive setting. My red flag alarm is switched right back on too – WHY did I miss so many before? They were in my face like bunting, but i was too blind to see. Thank you BR and Natalie for all your advice. Thank you for keeping me sane and showing me the EXIT sign. Being so far NC is fantastic – I never thought I would find the strength to walk away from such a soul sucking situation.
I wish all of you a peaceful New Year – make it your resolution to make 2012 all about YOU. Thank you.
Keep calm and carry on,
Great name! My mantra. Well done to you with the NC. With distance comes the light. I love this:
“…or spending another night waiting for my ex AC to show me how little I mean to him.”
This i think is the crux of the matter with many of us on BR. We wait for the text msg, sometimes for days and weeks. and when it comes we imagine it shows us how much we mean to him – a text msg, for god’s sake.
In fact what we need to see is that his Harry Houdini acts and his lazy, erratic communications (texts) are in fact clear indications not of how much we mean to him, but of how little. Now that I have been NC for a long time I can’t imagine why I thought one crumby three word text showed me anything other than how much I did NOT mean to him. I do feel shame that I deluded myself – shame does beget shame, and fear begets fear. In all the time it took him to press a “send” button I had turned the crumb into a loaf. That is truly a great feat of mental gymnastics! I should get an olympic gold.
Wife: my dad and his wife just got married a few years ago…at 84 and 76 respectivelly….I guess I probably don’t need to say that looks have nothing to do with finding a partner and you are probably being very hard on yourself.
Shame is not supposed to be part of “for better of for worse”. If anyone has shame in that agreement, it should be the person f-ing up, not the forgiver…just my 2 cents.
dancing queen
yay, there’s still time for me! thanx for sharing.
Hopless Wife, you said: “I’ve given him a second chance- should I not? I can definitely relate to shame that he cheated and shame that I took him back but isn’t it possible that he’s actually telling the truth and not everyone is once a cheater always a cheater? How do you tell when it’s ok to call dealbreaker and when you’re just making your life harder?”
Good questions. I’m so so sorry you are in this position. I’m a former OW and therefore feel such shame for betraying his wife. I asked myself the exact same questions from a wacky, deluded, unacceptable OW perspective. I’m thinking that you will know the deal breaker when the deal is broke. I am sorry. It hurts when guys cheat on their wives. It hurts when we are the OW’s. It just hurts. I’m sorry.
i’m 37. two kids. and somewhat overweight. i know what you mean, sort of…but, i’m not unhappy being solo right now. If a man is fat or forty, does that matter? if he’s butt-ugly, does it matter? (many of these douchebags we settle for arent so hot.). To an emotionally mature human being, it really is what is inside that shines through. Beauty in the eye of the beholder. But as long as you think “fat, forty, not attractive”, that is exactly what you will radiate outwards.
Regardless, being single is peaceful! And with kids you’re never lonely. It’s only if you truly believe you need a relationship to be happy that it will be so. How do you know if you haven’t tried? I think it’s freakin’ AWEsome< compared to eggshell stepping.
also, as i’m finding out, i can be as slim or as heavy as i want (genetics aside). Its amazing how you can find the energy to work out, eat right, etc, when it’s not being sucked up by an emotional vampire or blackhole of a relationship.
Here, here, yoshizzle! (Love that name, so cool) I ran four times this week after a long hiatus and was able to disregard mind-fuckery texts from my ex-mm and the urge to break NC with another man. The discipline of running invigorates me and while I’m keeping my body healthy, the mind naturally wants to follow. It’s some of my best alone, thinking time.
@ hopeless wife
Old, fat, ugly people… can still have relationships. I just walk down the street and KNOW that this is true!
I went to the movies this week and lo and behold an old ex date that I ended because they weren’t going anywhere with me and didn’t seem interested enough is off with their partner. Lo and behold their partner is so obese!
Don’t put yourself down! It’s bad enough someone else doing it to you. Even fat/ugly/old people can have relationships.
I know my limits so much that I haven’t gone on a proper date in over six months. If they come incorrect in an email or on a dating site, that’s it, zero tolerance. If I return their mail and I see them logged in the dating site and two days go by and still they haven’t returned my message? BLOCKED.
If I see, by his photos that’s he’s a ladies man…BLOCKED. Guys do silly stuff online…one dude posted a photo of him ‘kissing’ his best friend! One man was being spoon fed by a woman! I actually asked him why he was dating since they are clearly a couple he said she’s just a friend. Who needs the drama? BLOCKED.
Men who meet me then give me their card and tell me to call them? IGNORED. I NEVER will make the first call again I allow them to email then we chat.
I don’t want some fake-shy player using me to do the emotional heavy lifting.
If, after four or five emails and the man doesn’t offer to take me out on a date nor asks for my phone number he is BLOCKED.
I refuse to feel any shame anymore about any man -for the rest of my life.
Thus, right now , I don’t have a boyfriend -vetting cuts the herd! That and having standards and the policy of no MM no EUM no AC! Alas thus no boyfriend and I’m taking my time…all I need is ONE man, billions of men on the planet!
Getting lonely I”m sure I’m not the only one doing the right things and not finding that special guy…not giving up will continue with online dating and smiling and being pleasant to all in real life, go to Meet Ups, just being nice and smiley that’s all that I can do, right?
Are you my clone? haha that’s exactly me!! im also on a dating website and im exactly as you are, i cant even stand if a guy just says “hey hows u?” … wow thanks for all that effort… DELETE…
No BS at all diet for me this year, and my shame alarms are completely and utterly in check! xx
Flower White and Groundhog Day,
Love it. I admit, for some distraction and yes, validation, i went back to an online dating site. I immediately began to notice that I wasn’t ok with getting the “form email” some guys put together just to say hello. Not ok with not getting a response within a few days, oh and then two of them come in with “sorry for the late response, i was busy at work” also i’ve heard, “I was on vacation for the last two weeks.” Fine, i get that life is “busy.” But I’m feeling my boundaries and kinda sorta really loving it! I also know that since I am still healing, I shouldn’t be dating. And i’m not. It’s also not fair necessarily to any non AC/EUM because right now, I am likely to see anything as something that will piss me off, and it’s too early for me to tell 100% what is a valid boundary and what is coming up due to my pain and distrust. PLUS, it’s not ABOUT anyone but me right now! YAY! I’m too exhausted to give a crap anyway right now!I had met the ex AC online though, so i found that i was really not up for it again, and being on the site, only really made my stomach turn. In fact the AC even admitted to me, (and yet i ignored what i knew were red flags) that he wasn’t telling people we met online (code red he’s a liar and apparently ashamed of his own life), and that he hadn’t even actually read my profile (code red he was not really looking for an actual person nor cared about who i was other than a possible lay), and that i was “cuter in person than in my pictures.” Those things bothered me, ALOT, talk about what should have been my DEAL BREAKERS! But low self esteem, waiting it out, the well if he’s still around he must think SOMETHING good about me feeling, and me basically lacking all of the 10 dating commandments, I minimised the true meaning of those statements and ignored them as they would relate to a bigger picture of how this relationship could turn out. I wanted to show him how awesome i was or something. Those statements all told me he lacks respect for people in general, for me, for himself, and he’s already not treating me with love, care, trust and respect. I do have shame around the fact that I didn’t run the minute he said those things to me. I’m still dealing with that.
Here’s what I know today, thanks to BR and all the stories i read here: If I’m really trying for a change and trying to head down the right path though, for me, I am MUCH too closely out of the ex AC relationship to be actively dating and having a healthy me to offer and not falling back into my poor patterns. As Nat says, if you are ready to date again, you have to be ready for the possibility that something might not work out again, and if it doesn’t, not end up back on the break up from an AC rollarcoaster, and I’m simply not. I know I’m in the early stages of healing, dealing with the severe ups and downs, reading BR EVERYDAY to keep me level in the tough spots, and really, learning and trying everyday to validate me.
Good on you for sticking to your boundaries. It might be lonelier and you may find it harder to get a date BUT by cutting through the crap the next date you do go on should be great! It’s so worth it to wait it out for a good one. Why waste time and do damage to ourselves by putting up with EUM BS. Keeping those strong boundaries will ensure you are treated right by the next man you do date. If he doesn’t respect them then he is not worth it. A good man is hard to find and sadly I think there are more players and MMs out there rather than genuine ones but it doesn’t mean it’s impossible to find a good one – you just have to work a little harder and keep strong. It’s so worth doing though. Keep up the good work! Wish I’d known all this when I was younger!
Hey NCC, your boundaries sound great just now, for you. Believe that..
I Laughed at the dating site examples tho! Unfortunately Dating sites can be the last refuge of cover for the serial EUM…enables them every tool to manage interaction.
This is a fantastic post! I ‘officially’ started NC two weeks ago with my MM that I’d been with since April this year. I say ‘officially’ because I ended it in August, but stupidly contacted him after 3 weeks of NC to say I’d like us to be friends. He said he missed me so much and couldn’t be without me in his life. Needless to say we had a few dates and ended up in bed of a couple of ocassions. Doh! Shame alarm not working?
I thought he’d be the different one, it was like a fairytale from the start, my soul mate. We were ‘friends’ for a couple of months before something started between us and he assured me he didn’t want a fling, he and his partner had been together 14 years and the relationship was over, he was only there for his son. He asked me just to wait until after a family wedding in the May as he didn’t want to cause a bit distraction to the event by splitting from his partner. The wedding came and went (shame alarm ringing but ignored). Next excuse was that his son was starting a new school and he was quite upset about it so could I wait until the school holidays so that him leaving didn’t cause more upset for his son (shame alarm ringing but ignored…again), school hols came and went nothing.
Little comments he’d make should have had me running for the hills but I ignored them. Shame on me! Finally I ended it, and even though I let it unofficially carry on for a few more months with me being he one to suggest our meet ups etc (aaargh I could slap myself) two weeks ago I told him I was done!! No more, I choose me.
Fact is, he was punching way above his weight with me, and I think he knew it, but his ego was just so amazed I think that he could get a girl like me that he came up with all of the excuses, tricks in the book and yes treated me like a princess, but it was all just BS in order to keep me around for as long as possible.
I bet I’m not his first OW, and wont be his last for sure, but I’m not the twit sitting waiting on a text or phone call from him, or feeling like crap at 2am when he has to go home to someone else, or accepting his excuses and inflating his ego.
I’m not going to feel shame anymore. I thought I was in love and behaved in a loving, compassionate and supportive way towards him, he just unfortunately didn’t deserve it.
O V E R!! 🙂
xx
Well said Fresh start – theres always an excuse with MM
… i heard a story of a fella I was seeing a while ago about his father leaving his mother when he was younger… his father left his mother for an OW and left the family 2 weeks before they were supposed to be going on holiday for Christmas… If a man wants to be with you HE WILL LEAVE HIS WIFE, no matter of holidays, weddings, christmases etc, they will leave because they want to be commited to YOU….
fact is though that this is a one in a billion story so if someone keeps coming up with BS excuse after BS excuse your alarm bell should be ringing… if it isnt, you need the batteries changing!
All the best xx
Fresh start – glad you’re seeing the light! (Your tale reads much like mine when I had a thing with an MM twenty-years ago)
“I thought he’d be the different one, it was like a fairytale from the start, my soul mate.”
I never knew any fairy tale going along the lines of: ‘once upon a time a cheating married prince told his wife a load of bullshit to get out the palace to go have sex with his soulmate… after a thousand deceptions and the breaking of a thousand promises his soul mate saw him for the using rat he was; she cried a thousand tears and the prince crawled back his wife to live ever after.’
Thank you ‘Groudhog Day’ and ‘Fearless’! I’m actually surprised at how good I feel. I thought I’d feel like crap but because I have actually empowered myself and taken some control back by saying ‘do one’ to my ex-MM, I feel in charge. I’m not dancing to his tune anymore – I’m doing a cheeky salsa to my own thank you very much! 🙂
Best of luck to you all too xx
ps. Love the comment about the Fairytail – will look for that one in the childrens section next time I’m in Waterstones! ha ha xxx
Hi Fresh Start (love your name), good for you for ditching the MM. I just love when I hear about the OW kicking the MM to the curb. There were some highs and some very lows for me through out the kicking process and I still struggle. MM’s are a nightmare of shame for the OW as well as the betrayed wife as well as their children. I’m a child of a philandering father and it’s taken my lifetime to separate his shame from my shame. Still to this moment, I can’t believe I did to my daughter and to his children what my father did to me, my siblings, and my mother. The stolen time…such shame.
Thanks for the laugh Fearless! OMG, lmao …the fairy tale is priceless!
Ya, let me know when it goes to print.
Very timely. It’s almost as if Natalie knew I went a little crazy on Christmas Eve and stirred up the ex for drama, ha! Well I was subsequently ashamed because it was pretty much my fault…
But it actually wasn’t a bad thing in the end because I was reminded that I’ve had a boundary that I’ve never let anyone cross and something that would make me feel much more ashamed if I did. The ex did tell me exactly what I wanted to hear, which can often be worse than what you don’t. I already knew he was in a “monogamous relationship” with someone else that he’s now admitted he felt was a “lower risk” than I was as far as emotional investment is concerned. Well now he says he’s still in love with me. Well, my boundary is I don’t mess with attached men, even if I suspect this girl is a rebound, and while he doesn’t think there’s anything wrong with being in a relationship with someone while still in love with someone else, I know there is which is why I’m trying to get over him so I can move on. And then it hit me, the boundary I’ve stuck to for most of my life, something that should have been obvious all along. It’s wrong to continue to talk to someone you’re still in love with when you have a girlfriend that you don’t plan on leaving. If he had his way, I would stay on as his emotional support indefinitely so the other girl can remain a “safe” emotional investment. Well, I won’t do that to her and I won’t do that to myself and the part of me that still loves him won’t encourage this in him any longer. I suddenly lost the desire to keep explaining how I felt and hurt to him. I lost the desire to want to keep in touch even if I do still miss him. But the idea that talking to him would encourage this, sustain this behavior… both for him and myself and potentially hurt another, makes me pretty ill. I won’t do it any longer.
NoMore — I am in the EXACT SAME SITUATION.
Thank you for expressing so clearly what I feel.
His behavior is shameful. But I am the only one who feels ashamed.
Why do they do this?
Is this a variant of Big/Carrie/Natasha?
NML, please explain!
I think it’s important to point out that much as I love SATC, Big, Carrie and Natasha are fictional people. He does it because he’s Mr Unvailable – always keeping a woman spare to default to or fallback on.
Still confued:
1. But who here is the Fallback Girl?
2. Maybe…is it both women? (Sounds to me like he wants to commit to the other woman, but they still may BOTH be FBGs; ????).
3. If it is only NoMoreFear who is the Fallback Girl, then:
why the emotionally stronger woman instead of the easier-to-deal-with-emotionally woman? and:
wouldn’t he think that the emotionally stronger woman would BAIL from the situation?
NoMoreBS, in the aim of not bullshitting – a man that has two women is uncommitted to both. A man trying to cadge an ego stroke and keep a bird in his back pocket as an option, is uncommitted. No man that wants to commit keeps tapping up his ex behind his current woman’s back. If this is what commitment looks like to you, you’d better find a new meaning.
1. Both.
2. Both.
3. It’s like asking how long is a piece of string. He can do what he likes because he is doing what he likes and being duplicitous too.
He’s unavailable. There’s not much more to it than that.
NoMoreBS —
In my situation, we both are FBGs. I had a long relationship with this man, but watching what he is dong now makes me think it doesn’t matter who has the girlfriend title; the whole thing is a shell game. Like I was, the new gf is in the dark, trying to make sense of relationship dynamics as if his behavior is about her or about them. You know how you hear about women who discover the person they’re married to actually has a whole other family? Which is the “real” family and which is the “fallback” family? Neither and both; the guy gets off on secrecy, danger, and complicated logistics. These are the guys who have that “crazy ex” they’re living with, or that “roommate” you never meet. She, meanwhile, is wondering where her boyfriend is and why he gets so hostile when she asks.
Brilliant post as per usual!
I loooovvee this website so much!! I’m currently on a no BS diet but its stillpretty hard to deduce when the man is a bad egg or a good egg like for example, ifhe forgets to call once… do you really kick a man to the curb because he forgot to call once? I hate grey murky areas >:o
xx
I was thinking the same thing, Groundhog Day. How you know if your limits are reasonable or not? When are your feelings of shame simply a result of your own insecurities? If someone lies to you, is that always a deal breaker? If someone has an anger problem is that always a deal breaker? Everyone has faults and makes mistakes. I just feel like I lack the discernment to tell what is acceptable or not.
As a recovering *Renovator* I have decided that if I get into another relationship in the future, I want to be able to accept my partner-warts and all. I don’t ever want to try to control that person, especially asking them to initiate contact once in a while. Good grief! Talk about shame/embarrassment… But I don’t want to leave someone because my ‘limits’ are unreasonable, or conversely, stay in a relationship and put up with behavior because I’m not sure if it’s reasonable or not.
I know that probably sounds ridiculous. So many of you ladies are incredibly self-confident and know exactly where your boundaries should be. I want to be able to do that too!
Hi Laurie,
I think the difference between being human and so making mistakes and being an assclown is that as a proper human 🙂 you ususally make a mistake once, you realise it or accept the issue being raised, asess the situation, make amends and not repeat or discuss and come to conclusion. If you are an assclown you keep lying/being angry/ abusive/not call ect because that`s how you are and you`ll see a pattern forming. Also, it is not possible for anyone else to work out your boundaries, because it is YOU who has to be happy and comfortable. People`s behaviour needs to be acceptable to you, not your boundaries acceptable to people. It is not about what boundaries “should” be, it`s about what you want and don`t want in your life. AC`s an EUMS have boundaries too, for example most of them will only have relationships on their terms. They won`t let us overstep that boundary and they don`t bend it and make it fit ours. We should learn from them really. Read what people write here about their experiences and think, would you accept that in your relationship, would it make you happy? It helped me so much to get out of the awful fog when I couldn`t think straight and doubted myself all the time about everything.
Thanks, Sushi. This does help!
These men are shame magnets and I’ve had plenty of pathetic, shameful moments in pursuit of the impossible (thought dream, but was more like a nightmare). I, too, broke NC after 5 months, answering a lame Christmas greeting from him and got it shoved up my butt. But I’ not beating myself up over it because I answered with a cordial greeting back – nothing more and that is a first for me. In the past , I would have read more into it, swooned over him, pumped up that assclown ego but I didn’t and I am proud of myself. The chase is over for me. I just need to be stronger, as I know he will contact me again when he needs a “let’s see if she still wants me” fix. But this time I’m ready. Shame alarm went off!
I split with my ex 3 months ago after a 3 year relationship (living together for 1 yr). The first year he would only see me once a week when HE decided, I had to go round his place every time because we lived 1.5 hrs apart and he always had an excuse why he couldn’t (be bothered) to do the journey. He had recently split from his wife and wouldn’t tell her or his 2 children about me for a year, which I would not have minded so much if he hadn’t promised me, every couple of months, that he was going to tell them “this weekend” then went back on the promise. I left him after growing tired of his broken promises, he wooed me back and stupidly I agreed to move in with him. (I know!!!)
Everything was great for 5 months, then he became verbally abusive. We would be having a minor disagreement and suddenly he would blow up at me, shouting: “GET OUT MY F***KING FACE,” and telling me that no one else would EVER put up with me. This happened quite a few times (twice in public) and I was always devastated afterwards but still didn’t leave. A few times he really shouted at his children making them cry which was awful to watch. His daughter even told me that she only came round to see me and our pets because “dad just shouts at me all the time.”
Then one weekend when his children were round, I said I was going to pop out to do some shopping and meet up with him and the kids later. He was furious and said: “FINE I’LL JUST LOOK AFTER THE KIDS ON MY OWN THEN.” His face was bright red and a vein was bulging unattractively out of his forehead, he was so angry. I pointed out that they were HIS kids and I was always making an effort with them, buying them gifts and spending a lot of time with them.
Suddenly it was like a switch just went in my head and I knew that I could not carry on with this. The next day I went to work and I never came home again. Moved in with my parents and then got my own place. Sometimes I find it hard to be alone but surely it is better than someone who makes you feel terrible about yourself all the time. I would rather be alone forever than with someone who can’t treat me with respect.
Hey Bella,
The verbal abuse starts so insiduously…then its like watching a lovely painting break up into a horror scene. You describe it so well.
Great that you got away. I have also experienced this, with mounting feelings of shame, shame at myself that I pressed a reset button and went back when I had in essence been verbally annihilated..
I read a great book, Lundy Bancroft,’ Why does he do that’. It helped me make sense of it all, and it has a great chapter on how these men parent their kids. It also doesn’t read from their perspective, from the first it’s about women, emphasizing how you get out and stay out of these relationships.It does give you tools to recognise and avoid these men in future too. Helped me…and Baggage Reclaim.
I too would rather be alone than be with someone who treated me like this. Good Call. However, I don’t close all doors, just more careful. Happy New Year to You.
Bella
my mother had a female cousin who was dating a divorcee with young children – he wanted her to marry him. He had his own story about why his marriage broke down. The cousin decided to check his story with his ex wife and called her up. What she heard made her end the relationship with this man. She dumped him flat.
I always have a sneaky feeling that divorced/separated men, particularly men and particularly where there are young-ish children in the marriage, are divorced or separated for good reason. It’s a general statement, but I suspect it is generally true.
That’s interesting, Fearless. The EU separated from his live in girlfriend when they had a very young child (under one year). He indicated that they were in the process of breaking up when she became pregnant, but then stayed together to try to make it work. At the time I thought that they must have not been right for one another, as I would assume that having a baby together would give you every reason to try to make it work. In hindsight, I think that he likely royally screwed over his ex. And now the poor woman has ties to him for the rest of her life….
the deal breaker for me not to have any contact with my ex was that he will text me all lovely words but when we face to face he act like its all about him so i decide to let it go, he action and words were not matching . again thank you .
My alarm rang so much and so often until I became deaf. Limit? There never was any. Deal Breaker? There was nothing left to try or hope for with him anymore, no where to go but out of it. I was empty, no self-esteem, no confidence, no self respect, no pride, no dignity, no trust, no self love, no trust, insecure, full of guilt, shame, hatred and anger. I had lost, throwing in the towel…
…another thought
I can trust me, I do know a wolf in sheeps clothing or a rat when I see and smell one. I have nipped it in the bud with others before and since, I have heard the bells and seen the red flags… not giving them the time of day, seeing it for what is was and not letting it rock my world and send me into a downward spiral or a sea of disgust. Why didn’t I do it with this one, especially after 15 yrs? That’s the million dollar question and what’s the answer?
Hopeful,
I did it for ten – on and off, of course!. I don’t know the answer. Except that Nat’s explanations make a whole lot of sense to me. It’s a reluctance to face the truth. Nope, it’s a total denial of the truth – persistently, unrelentingly bullshitting ourselves. I think too it’s harder to spot when you have decided this the guy you want. I can spot the losers too, a mile away – when I am not interested or already involved with them it’s easy. The thing is to spot them *and act* no matter how interested or how involved you are.
“There was nothing left to try or hope for with him anymore, no where to go but out of it.”
I relate to that very well! Eventually you grasp the fact that there is actually only one door: The Way Out.
What if you don’t want a relationship with the person? What if you have no expectations? What if you are just looking for a short term shag and don’t have to twist anything in order to get it because it’s what they are looking for too? What if you are looking for a relationship but not with this person you are shagging, but keeping eyes and ears open and staying uber-social outside of the once-in-a-while physicality with this person?
Going out with friends, meeting new people, getting phone numbers, going on dates with potential of a relationship … that if such a relationship were to happen, if it were to get beyond the three-date point with someone you meet and truly like beyond the easy shag you have with mr x, that mr x would be let go like a hot potato in favor of great relationship potential with mr y? And with no hard feelings either way?
Do you always have to have such expectation with just sleeping with someone now and again? I don’t … and I certainly don’t see ANY relationship potential at all with the man I sleep with once in a while. So who is it harming, really? It’s just fun. we’re both adults. I don’t see why I should try to be girlfriend material for him, or he boyfriend material for me if it’s nothing more than physical and fun…. Maybe I’m a horrible person, but I’m 41 years old, and I like having my needs met every now and then with a willing partner who finds me attractive and is willing to make the time when I want it, no texts, no fluff, no commitment, and willing to end it when I say it’s over. I’m happy with the way things are.
I have a date coming up with a truly nice man in the next week, so hopefully my needs can be met in a true relationship. Meantime, I don’t get why anyone would have to morph to keep a man… to feel like they have no self respect. Perhaps you all think I’m just lying to myself, but I do have self respect. I just do what I enjoy. And I know what I want in a boyfriend and what I don’t want in a boyfriend. And this “shag friend” is not what I want in a boyfriend. I’d probably be labeled a “fraud” based on this blog, but I’m totally happy and at peace with myself for the first time in a long time. And I respect myself and I have boundaries that work for me and I love myself and am worth it to have a good man who will treat me with love, care, trust and respect.
And…
Newbie, I’ve seen a flurry of comments and so felt that I should respond. There are six key words that encapsulate this comment:
Those who doth protest too much.
The more you say, the less I believe because you’re going to great lengths to make your point by taking away from others in a backhanded manner while also going to great lengths to clarify and describe something that’s so simple and easy for you.
When you are genuinely behind your decisions and actions, you don’t need to legitimise them by bringing down others. What you’re basically implying is “Why are you over dramatic people getting your knickers in a twist about something that I claim to feel guilt free and adult about? Grow up ladies. I can do what I want. I can shag, I can get attention – it’s a free country. All of you babies are making me look bad.”
Newbie, I actually don’t doubt for one second that you’re totally happy with your arrangement – you’re just not happy without validation from strangers. There’s nothing wrong with a mutual arrangement. Of course if it’s not mutual, as the ‘driver’, you’re bound to be content with what you’re doing – it’s on your terms. But I would be careful of lacking in *empathy*. Many of the readers here have been like your shag mate – regarded as a warm body to satisfy you and act as speaking ‘attention mirrors’ that you pass time with but are regarded as being unsuitable for a relationship – unpaid escorts and hookers. I hope you never find yourself in the same situation.
I agree, Natalie. Just like I wouldn’t let a fox guard the henhouse, I would hesitate to invalidate the pain of the many women on this site (myself included) who have been treated like unrelationship-worthy bed partners. The collateral damage is way too high.
Shame, embarassment, humiliation… all just seems like so much drama to me. Why not just do what makes you happy and walk when something else makes you happier and more satisfied?
I never feel any of those things. And I wouldn’t be sleeping with the man I’m sleeping with (from time to time) if I did. Better to be happy alone than in a miserable drama-filled situation where every action must be analyzed to death. Is it so abnormal to just enjoy and be happy and not feel such angst and drama?
newbie: If you are both on the same page then what you do is fine as noone is being hurt. This blog isn’t about that. May you find all you want and need and not create drama with what you do. Many people do what you are doing anyway; it’s pretty much the norm. We here are seeking different arenas and know that we do get attached so the fwb and casual affairs do not work for us. We seek more and do not want less. I think I speak for the majority although there could be more like you reading and participating. If it works for you to do as you do then that’s how you choose to live your life and is fine. I have to live as I choose as well, and this site allows growth and learning and expression of the journey and pain which then allows acceptance and feelings of the pain which comes with growth and learning new ways of living and behaving and reprogramming…again, if you are happy with f*cking someone with no commitment or emotional ties then that is what is okay for you. I want more and can satisfy myself sexually by myself. A relationship, for me, is more than sex.
newbie
if it works for you, hunky dory.
But you know where we are should your “sleeping with from time to time” “arrangement” turns sour.
My feeling is that in these “arrangements” someone always ends up getting screwed (over). Be careful, newbie, you don’t end up on the receiving end when who you identify as Mr More Promising is just looking for some “harmless” fun, having you to stroke his ego and sex him up from time to time at his own convenience. Mr More Promising does not always state this agenda up front.
newbie: shame and the other emotions are part of what we feel as humans…if you don’t feel them in connection with what you are doing then fine but denigrating the posters here is not empathy nor compassion. If you walk whenever you think something is better and will make you happier then that is your perogative. Many of us have stayed until we had to give up and the result was the emotions of shame, etc. Maybe you will never walk in our shoes. Maybe you will skip from person to person as a bee goes from flower to flower and never become attached to any of those you date…there are many EUM’s just like that except that they say and do things that create impressions that are different than coming right out and stating” All I want is to shag you”, of course if they had done that then most of us would have shoved them away immediately as we were seeking a connection not just a f@ck. I hope that what you do is honest when you are interacting with others. I’m sure there are men who will be more than happy to receive a zipless f$ck and I hope that ya’ll are careful enough physically to not spread disease and sicken your future sexual partners…seems pretty careless to me to be indulging in sex as casually as you are…but I’m of a different mind set and know that casual isn’t good for me. I do get attached and must feel affection to hug someone not to mention going further. Good luck and may you do no harm.
I think you might be missing the point of this blog, newbie (that just sounds like an insult, but it’s the name you used, sorry!). It’s intended for women who do want relationships and are trying to sort out if the person they want this with is worth it or stringing them along OR to figure out if they are lying to themselves and the chance at a relationship this person is so hopeless that they need to move on. If you really are happy and content with your “shag-friend” no one is judging you or trying to set your boundaries for you or trying to force you into a relationship with him. I, for one, have lied to myself by thinking I could just have an occasional shag with someone that I really had deeper feelings for, so I get a lot out of this site and it’s really helped me take a closer look at my own behavior and the types of men I get involved with. If you’re not in that situation then most of the info here wouldn’t apply to you when it comes to your arrangement with your “shag friend.” No one is judging you and all of us would like to live drama-free. We’re here to help each other do that.
Newbie,
“I like having my needs met every now and then with a willing partner who finds me attractive and is willing to make the time when I want it, no texts, no fluff, no commitment, and willing to end it when I say it’s over.”
If the other person is aware of your indifference to them and is using you to meet their needs as well then okay. If you are willing to end it when they say so……no harm done. I am all for casual sex if both parties are in the same place. BUT…the problem arises for the person who is meeting your needs if you haven’t let them in on the fact that you don’t consider them relationship potential or mislead them into thinking they are more to you than a blow up doll, so YOUR needs continue to be met on your terms, until you say it’s over. That is my definition of a parasite.
Newbie,
I’m not an alcoholic, so i don’t go to Alcoholics Anonymous. But I don’t ask people who are alcoholics and do go to AA, “why can’t you just have a fun drink once in a while and call it good? Why can’t you just stop drinking when it gets out of control? What’s the big deal?” This is what it sounds like to me you are asking of this blog and it’s readers/commentors.
I HAVE bad relationship patterns, and I’ve dated the men Natalie describes here, and I’ve felt the terrible feelings she describes as a result of my dating choices, but up until now I’ve dealt with that ALONE. But i’ve found this site, and I realize I’m not alone, and it’s saved me, and i mean from a ledge, that’s how bad things got.
Not trying to be rude, I hear in your post that you are happy with your relationships and your potential future relationships. And To me, that is wonderful! As NoFearNoMore says, no one is judging you or saying you can’t do what you are doing if it makes you happy. Also as it’s not for you to judge those who feel they do fall into drama and shame and unhealthy relationships time and time again, so they are trying to change. And I’m inclined to agree with jennynic as well, does the other person know your true feelings and intentions?
We are all TRYING to work on issues like letting go of drama and shame, but some of us just arent’ there yet, so this site gives us hope, realistic advice and something positive to strive for.
Newbie
I hope that your mutual arrangement works out for you. But, I have never seen these type of situations work successfully over the long haul. Someone always wants to change the rules in the middle of the game because they start feeling some type of attachment. Someone always gets hurt eventually.
I dont want to preach to you but this is my opinion. I really believe that this FWB is a man’s game. Now, I believe in the sexual revolution for women. However, I believe t hat the majority of women are not naturally built to exist successfully in these FWB situations. It really is not in our nature. It is very easy for men to disconnect their feelings from sex. Women have to work hard to remeber to do this. Not everything is 100% but more times than not, most women can not behave over the long term like”Samantha” from Sex and the City..
As you read through some of the posts, it is really easy to judge some of the women here because some of the stories are so bizarre. But one thing that I know for sure, if you are a grown woman and has done any type of living, you have been in a similar situation. Yeah, there are different levels of drama, but we have ALL been in that dark place. Please try to be a little encouraging, or dont post at all.
My limit came early on just I chose to ignore it. I knew something was wrong, I could feel it even though at the time I was unaware of the all the behaviors that were being exhibited in which this blog then made me realize. I have definitely learned to trust my instincts more. I have often doubted them but for the most part, they have almost always been spot on. I had huge doubts about this person before I even went out with them and in the end who I originally thought they were, their intentions etc, turned out to be exactly spot on. I was in doubt for a short time due to all the crap they were feeding me then followed by the lying I was doing to myself etc.
Newbie,
As I understand it this site is about dating and relationships, as you say you aren’t dating or in a relationship with your F-buddy so it’s kind of off topic. I don’t think the original post is about your arrangement at all. No-one is saying you “should” feel shame.
I am aware that FWB is common now but it doesn’t really interest me. I don’t want to sleep with someone I don’t find kind, interesting, amusing, attractive etc etc. And if the FWB has these qualities then sleeping with them will form a bond .. I will find myself becoming attached. That’s just me, though, its personal choice, feelings etc
This disturbingly resonated: “It can seem ‘logical’ to ‘make’ this person correct a poor situation and cancel out the shame, however, unfortunately all you end up doing is digging yourself into an even bigger shame hole, which of course will cause you to lose all sense of you so you feel an even greater dependency on the very person causing you pain and the trophy of ‘winning’.”
You know, that statement is really what I struggled with, for months, after my epiphany relationship which really only took a turn for a nightmare that last 3 days on a vacation….I so wanted to reengage after he showed his true colors to get him to apologize and though I did not…I was OBSSESSED about it. Now I feel a bit better about my decision to disengage..so thanks!:)
It was such a shaming relationship having been treated so badly out of the blue…when I had gone to another state to meet his family and supposedly be all romantic…just what an ass! I can laugh about it now, but really it was NOT funny then….he did literally every shitty thing that he could have while I was on his turf with his loved ones and in public no less…and I did nothing…just shut down and became very cold instead of going to a hotel…the shame of that experience…not having said my truth…not having done anything but having just froze…stayed with me for AGES….it was like ripping a scab off of my childhood where my crazy step-mom would get drunk and act abusive towards me in public and I, as a child, would just….what a surprise!;)…do the same thing….just freeze.
I had so much shame after that last relationship for not sticking up for myself on that vacation and having never said a word, I just “let it go” but not really…but now I see that it would have not mattered anyway…there was a part of me that obssessed about wanting to tell him all about him, and how his shameful (albiet helpful in the longterm for me) hurtfulness, affected me…but it would have been for nought.
But you know, this article just changed my feeling about that; that was his shame, that I took on, and whether he knows it or not is not my problem…I will NOT be ashamed anymore…from here to the day I die…. when some asshole treats me badly….really it is their problem not mine!!!!! That was really just hurtful to me because it led me back to that first childhood issue.
But you know, this article just changed my feeling about that; that was his shame, that I took on, and whether he knows it or not is not my problem…I will NOT be ashamed anymore…from here to the day I die…. when some asshole treats me badly….really it is their problem not mine!!!!! That was really just hurtful to me because it led me back to that first childhood issue…which was where the most powerful shame lurked.
So, ironically, I have loser to thank for alerting me to my first shame “fountain”…erm thanks loser lol….;)
On a side note; thanks to him, I am now on date five of a very promising new thing and he seems to completely dig me for being me…and so much of this blog has helped me to just be honest, present…if I had not had that “epiphany” in my life to lead me to this blog I would have still be freezing and shutting down and now I am not like that anymore.
So thanks Natalie, to both you and all the courageous ladies and ( the few) men here for leading me to the light…and thanks, especially, to my ex for leading me to someone way more fun and intelligent and compassionate than you were seemingly ( although who knows…its only 5 dates…)
Happy New Year all!:)
dancingqueen —
I went on *two* vacations that turned out to be festivals of sadism.
And I did not have the self-respect or self-preservation to leave and got my own hotel.
No, both times I stuck it out, trying to be adult and calm and placating to someone who was acting out in contempt and rage.
Do I wish I had just disappeared on him? Yes and no. I still needed/need validation for my own experience — from him. My own perceptions were somehow not enough. That is the crux of my issue. Admit you were a monster to me, then I can let go.
In the past, my deal breakers changed as I went or were ridiculed until I changed them. The ex AC went to a brothel ( and lied about it)…..deal breaker, but wait, he only went because his friends did and only to check it out but none of them did anything (lie). I was told I had trust issues and that he didn’t know if he could deal with that. When I couldn’t let it go, the story just didn’t add up….then I was told I was imagining things and I wouldn’t let him feel sorry for what he did. But wait, he didn’t do anything (right?) but keep his word to his friends and I was just trying to come between him and them. Something was wrong with me (not him) because I wouldn’t let it go while the other wives and girlfriends were past it and laughing about the misunderstanding (another lie). It was insane, but I let him manipulate me into feeling like I was the one who was in the wrong and damaging our relationship. I was shamed, in numerous ways by him and then by myself, first for allowing myself to believe it was my fault and then for contorting to be a better girlfriend when I knew at my core things were very wrong and I was being abused. Then I was ashamed for being abused…..that this smart, successful, independent woman was a fraud. Shame became my prison guard instead of my sign to go. The deal breaker (finally) in all this was the day he punched me in the face. He said that was my fault too. I left that relationship feeling like a stranger to myself. What have I learned in all this? Deal breakers are mine to decide. Nobody should be able to talk me out of it or manipulate me into believing I’m being unreasonable. Now I scrutinize the small things as deal breakers and think I tend to over think things looking for amber and red flags. I’ll never let that kind of abuse or crazymaking happen to me again but I’m still working out what is a legitimate red/amber flag and what is my fear overriding my reason. My sense of self is stronger but I still doubt myself sometimes. It has to be a conscience effort still.
jennynic- oh I know how you feel : “I was told I had trust issues and that he didn’t know if he could deal with that. ” Oh, the poor loves, we wounded them so……These are exactly the words my ex used. OMG, maybe the same guy? ? These words followed pathetic , in your face lies, of the sort you are describing. In fact the only trust issues we have are with ourselves, and they just didn`t like that we were not stupid and blind……well, mine is free to hop off to look for one now, good luck to him and good riddance 🙂 I used to have peculiar bodily responses to the crap he dished out. Sometimes it was the – HUH…WTF?? And sometimes full on lurch in gut/panic/frozen brain /sinking feeling thing. From perspective, the first one was the amber, second red flag alert. I know what you mean about worrying we can`t do the objective reality check, but I`m going to try to go with the gut thing, turns out it was very accurate before. I`m starting to catch myself just reacting to things sometimes without overthinking too much and it feels great. Try the body thing? Onwards and upwards 🙂
This is me but I can’t change. I’m afraid to be alone and have nothing.
You can change if you want to but you don’t want to right now and that’s ok we all get there in different ways. I was once afraid of being alone so I let myself be used for sex by my ex. I now see its better to be alone than feeling so bad about myself every single day. No one is worth disrespecting yourself for just to have that person in your life. Actually he wasn’t even in my life just in my bed and only when it was convenient for him. It was degrading and humiliating and I thank God everyday I finally saw the light. I’m worth more than that and so are you.
Ashamed,
I don’t know what it is you have but if it’s anything like the typical story we get on BR then you already have “nothing”. As Nat says, you don’t want to ‘lose’ but you have already lost. You’re clinging to a delusion. That’s all. Gift yourself with NC and you’ll see this in time. You won’t see it while you’re in it – you will spiral deeper into the fear and shame hole.
For almost a year I put up with hurtful comments, humiliations in the tone of “I want you to meet my kids, but you know this is just sex, right?”, manipulations, future faking with the correspondent cruel reality checks, cheating, and more. And now I’m just ashamed of one single thing: that after almost a year of NC in which, of course, I haven’t heard from him -because he never really wanted me-, I still think of him, I still want to see him, I still want to get an e-mail, a text, something… I’m ashamed of how angry it makes me feel to think that he has moved on, and I’m in the same dark place. Why am I still hooked to a man that never showed loyalty or respect for me? When is my limits going to start working?
Still a shame
NC will work. It will. Keep fighting for you. Let him go. He is a swine of a man and you know this already – so what’s to want? A text message from an abusing man who treated you like crap to let you know he’s up for chucking you some more of the shame? The swine has moved on, you say? Well, thanks be to God.
I was that girl… All of it…
I hope that anyone under 30 reads this post… I wish I had Nat back then…
I can condense all of this without quoting: WHEN THE SHAME BELL RINGS… RUN LIKE HELL!!!
I had very horrible examples of what “normal” was… had no clue what “bad behavior” was…
I always thought it was “me”… it wasn’t “me”, it was them…
Have a blessed New Year, all,
MP
Nat, you’re such a diva and I love it! I mean, not really a diva, but you are so on-point and clear and straightforward and I think I speak for all of us when I say that it is much appreciated.
I hear you every post of the way, and BR has changed my mind and therefore my life in so many healing ways over the years. I like to be in relationships, and I’m a bit love-obsessed, but as part of your 10 Rules, I’m working on the love-obsessed bit. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with liking to be in relationships, it’s just a preference, and I absolutely revel in my alone time. The problem is, I’m a college student currently and to be perfectly honest, I am kinda…a sexual person. And so…although I have done better about getting rid of assclowns and developing boundaries in terms of friendships and in learning from old relationships, I find myself repeatedly faced with the problem of Friends with Benefits.
I don’t have time for a relationship (a healthy, committed one) and neither do my peers. My university is extremely demanding. So with that said, with my preference to be in a monogamous relationship, and with my libido, where does that leave me? Satisfied and unsatisfied with Friends With Benefits. On one hand I feel like I’m being unfair to myself to settle for this kind of relationship, because I hate that the guy I am sleeping with is also sleeping with someone else–and I can’t get mad because that’s the nature of this type of relationship–but on the other hand, I feel like this is all I can expect while in college.
Anyone have any thoughts?
breeze
I think if you hate it then don’t do it.
Relationships don’t take that much time. It’s not as much effort as pretending that you don’t care about something you do care about.
My niece got 12 A*s while maintaining a relationship. The two of them simply agreed not to see each other during the exams.
Okay, GCSEs may not be as demanding as a degree but – she was only 16 years old …
And I know a lot of lawyers who met their fiancees/wives at university. It’s completely do-able. If you really want it.
Breeze:
“I don’t have time for a relationship (a healthy, committed one) and neither do my peers. My university is extremely demanding.”
Sorry breeze but all I’m hearing is an excuse. It sounds like my ex EUM – “too busy”. I put myself through a four year degree course at university – I was single and alone with my young daughter to care for as well as the demands of the course. In my final year I met the now ex EUM (who has no children). I wasn’t “too busy” for the relationshit – I was bending over backwards to accommodate it. He wasn’t. He was “too busy”. And ten years later he was still “too busy”. So, I don’t know what you are but “too busy” isn’t it.
I should have listened to all of you as I am still struggling daily to make sense of my husbands EA. Should have been a deal breaker – but there was too much history for me to just give it all up. Since then, its been a constant daily uphill battle however I have decided that I am not the one who should be fighting…I am keeping a journal and a chart (may sound juvenile). He needs to go out of his way every single day with his actions not his words to make me happy. I have already told him if it doesn’t happen I have no problem separating – clearly I should have done this the first place. I am not going to bug the crap out of him for his accountability either – if it doesn’t happen he gets a black check for the day. I may love him but I certainly don’t need to be miserable day after day because of his actions (or lack there of) – I choose me in 2012!!!
Bewildered….how many black checks does he get before you’ve had enough? I’m not trying to be mean, but how many chances does he get? You are living in limbo land while he is still not having to be accountable. Your punishment isn’t making him sorry, it has to be genuine from within him and that sounds questionable. If he is still getting ‘black marks’ then he’s still falling short. I hope you have less miserable days in 2012…..but that’s in your hands. You have the power…..
bewildered
Oh Lord, I can’t believe I’m saying this but if you’re going to save your marriage you have to forgive him. He can’t keep paying for what he’s done wrong and you can’t keep up with the star chart.
Bewildered, a “black check” just made me shudder on so many levels. I remember when I was raising my daughter at 2-3 years old and the powers that be told me to give her “stars for good behavior” and “frowns for bad behavior”. It seemed to me absurd to chart the behavior of a 2-3 year-old since they are 2-3 years old. Should I have given her a black check for not coloring in the lines? She never could cut on a straight line and seems to be doing fine in college despite her inability to cut on a straight line. Of course, she still can’t wrap a present to save her soul. But we love the attempt. I can’t imagine trying to chart the behavior of an adult and giving them “black marks” when they don’t measure up. It must be exhausting. I’m sorry. I hope I don’t get a black mark for this comment?
Bewildered
is there a naughty step too? Is your chart like a “how happy did you make me today?” checklist? Is it like a behaviour modification programme? Does he care about black checks? Are you hoping he’ll care more about black checks than he does about you? Are you trying to punish him into making you happy? Is he even responsible for making you happy?
So many questions… sorry. I’m not sure it’s a good idea to threaten someone with a “make me happy or else” chart. It won’t work. You can threaten him with separation all you like but it’s been a very long time and you are still there so he doesn’t believe you – neither do I, and I am not even on a chart. Maybe it’s time to take on some responsibility for your own happiness and to actually decide if his extra marital shenanigans are a deal breaker or not. Choose?
this is exactly spot on what we should listen to our shame alarm! Thanks Nat this is spot on right now. Somehow a big light came on for me today after nearly 4 month. This was a true revelation, I do have everything thats important to me, my self and dignity and my kid. My ex AC wants to ruin me financially and guess what i dont give a f…. . I have myself back. And i am sure i will be having times again when i will be feeling bad again and am truly thankful for this Nat and all other people on here.
A lot of assclowns, like the one I am dealing with, are able to slowly creep in and do it so insidiously that if you are vulnerable and have no self-esteem already, you don’t realize you’ve WAY over-exceeded your limits.
If you would have told me one year ago I would have allowed myself to be screwed by a married guy in a dirty bathroom at work, in the back of his car at work, in an alleyway in the back of his car, that I’d be sending “sexy” (aka degrading) photos of myself, that I’d be crying, wailing, practically begging for his attention, that I’d listen as he was “too busy” to meet me and could only ever respond when it was convenient for HIM (through text no less), I would have been incredibly offended and not believed a single word.
My limits have been crossed SO MUCH this year and all because I thought I was “in love” and thought the DISGUSTING crumbs I was getting were “worth it” for him. I’m SO ashamed of what I’ve allowed myself to do and become.
I’m almost 30 and NEVER ever engaged in such behavior before meeting this AC. The only thing that has changed is I’ve had to take care of my mother for health reasons starting this year and I think that opened up the old wounds that never healed from childhood and he SWOOPED in like a predator and I was eager to relive the hurt and try to validate the child in me.
I’m NC because I can’t do this anymore. I finally blocked his number. He honestly never showed me any care and I’m so embarrassed and ashamed. My shame alarm is ringing very loudly NOW because I can’t undo what I’ve done and what I’ve left myself do. The worst part is I work with this AC.
Thank you all for your encouragement. I know you are all right. I took back the jacket this afternoon. I am really kind of glad I gave him the money to pay his phone bill, I think his treatment of me since has finally been a wake up call to me. The fact that he won’t even use the phone, that I enabled him to keep on, to keep in contact with me is an all time low even for him. I really have felt a shift in the way I feel about him. Yes I still love,yes I am sad because obviously he has lied to me the last two years. But I think I’m moving to acceptance that nothing will ever be any different with him. I have not had that overwhelming urge to contact him and find out why he ignored me Christmas. I would just get the same excuse we all hate “busy”.
Option
We are all rooting for you.
“I have not had that overwhelming urge to contact him and find out why he ignored me Christmas. I would just get the same excuse we all hate “busy”.”
He is married. Which one of you, do you think, Option, has made the most excuses? Neither the OW or the MM is dealing with the reality of the situation because both are way “too busy”. Both are too busy making excuses – for him. He has an endless supply of excuses for all of his crap, and so far you have too (these MMs hardly need to be very imaginative with their excuses cos the OW does all that for him). Which one of you is going to quit with the excuses first? Let it be you!
Darn Natalie, this post triggered a shame spiral for me. I could fill pages with the humiliation and shame of being the OW but since I’ve posted those details for the past year, there’s no need. At the same time, I could fill pages with how we were soulmates blah blah blah but I’ve done that too. It’s the stark contrast between the rock bottom and the high. Thanks so much for the bright line: “Shame equals the deal is off”. I know it doesn’t matter what these asshats feel but it just stumps me that they don’t care? Don’t feel?
So please indulge me…one last (I hope) humiliating moment, which is minor in the scheme of things since he was a MM. We planned a bbq with my best gf’s. We were supposed to cook for them. He was late and my gf’s and I ended up bbqing so when he arrived, everything was done. But I forgot the cheese. So when he called to say he was running late, I asked him to pick up some cheese. You’d think I asked him to pick up the moon. It took 20 minutes to explain that he needed to go to the cheese section of the grocery store and get cheese, nothing special just cheese. This is a college educated, attorney, 50 year old dude who I’m sure has been to a grocery store in the last few years? It was one of those little, tiny shame filled moments as my gf’s stared in disbelief. Sometimes, it’s something as simple as cheese! Shame on him. Shame on me.
Runner
I think we are much the same place. I know I am done with him but like you I am remembering so much – all the “little” things. I think now that we’ve processed the situation for what it was, we are re-remembering – putting everything now into its proper context.
It’s like completely mis-reading a novel – realising the hero is the bad guy or the anti-hero and the heroine is actually a tragic naive figure who realises in the end that she has been duped by a fraudulent fantasy – mostly by herself, and is shamed. We are reading that book again, with a whole new insight. Don’t be alarmed. 2nd edition coming out soon! In the latest version the the “hero” learns nothing and keeps on repeating the past. The heroine learns he is more to be pitied than scorned. She discovers her true value, finds her true self and steps, nae strides, boldly, shamelessly and with certainty of ownership into her own future!
And if a man appreciative of her true value ever crosses her path, her novel will not end with the words: ‘Reader, he married me’. It will not. Her novel may, in all good time, end with the words: ‘Reader, I married him’. (in the manner of Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte.Wonderful!)
Thank you Fearless,
That’s a wonderful perspective. I totally mis-read that novel (called my life) the first go around. I really like the 2nd edition and the new ending!
Happy New Year to all!
I really like this article Natalie!
I’ve been working on enforcing my boundaries, and I’ve noticed a few things: I will tell someone “no,” or disapprove of something, and they automatically try and change my mind. It’s not just love interests, it’s family, it’s the electric guy, the phone technician, the sales people, friends, everyone. I don’t have a problem compromising; I’m talking about someone actively trying to change my mind about something I am clearly taking a strong stand on….
Also, I’ve noticed the types of tactics they use to bust my boundaries, some are so sweet and clever, others are quite threatening, but they all come down to manipulation…them manipulating me with apologies, promises, threats, fear, rewards, and the list goes on….
And, I’ve noticed how I cave so easily in too many instances for me to say, “Yes, I have good boundaries.” I thought I had good boundaries, and that I was just compromising, trying to get along, trying to be fair, but NOOOOOOO! I was really hurting myself. I can see how I was disrespecting myself and losing trust in myself.
It’s really weird because I can make the “big” decisions with confidence, and I feel like a strong woman, but I’ve really started to notice where I abandon myself and cave, and it is usually when I am putting someone else’s needs before my own, or I am doubting my own boundary or the other person has successfully managed to convince me to doubt my own boundary, and I think it all goes back to knowing who I am what I want, …confidence…self-love is a big one, and really believing in myself.
I have improved in all of these areas, but lately I have been a little frustrated at the fact that I catch myself still right in the process of allowing others to bust my boundaries, or after they have done it, ….yes, I feel angry because I am ashamed of myself.
So, for me, I’ve just tried to really avoid beating myself up over this, and I’m trying to improve. And, I read someone’s comment on here on another post, and they said something about taking things one interaction at a time, and so that’s what I’m doing taking it one interaction at a time, and I totally agree that you have to be clear on what your boundaries and limits are, and yes, you have to ACT. I think it is much better to ACT than to react; I try to look at the big picture, and just wipe out all possible attacks, so if it means walking away, fine, if it means changing phone companies, finding a new job, whatever. I’m just feeling like the stakes of losing myself…not being who I was meant to be, ….being empty…those stakes are too high.
Great article as always. I’m 22 and just started seriously dating, and a Mr. Unavailable was my first relationship. Truth is I saw the signs and went beyond my boundaries thinking that I still had control but that’s another story.
Sugar and Spice, I truly agree 110% with what you said about saying no, I feel like it is all about control. I was watching Oprah the other day and a guest of hers echoed this issue. What stood out most is she said that if you say no and the other person can’t accept it, you’re next question to them should be “Why are you trying to control me?”. I have serious issues in this area for example my ‘best friend’ always pouts when I say no. I’m a newbie (just moved to a new area) and don’t want to be friendless so I cave but can feel it’s manipulation.
If you say no and they try to change you mind- you know what, it is a lack of acknowledgement of someone else’s personal space and desires and pushing your agenda at any cost, the other person included. Your last phase- “I’m just feeling like the stakes of losing myself…not being who I was meant to be, ….being empty…those stakes are too high.” bull’s eye.
I appreciate this article and I can relate all to well. My question is, how can one (namely myself) move on from verbally abusive assclown when we share a son together who is under a year old. I would absolutely love to go no contact with him, however, it will is really not an option at this point. I also, for whatever reason, still find myself at times hoping that things will improve and he’ll once again be the person I met way back when.
Not feasible is it…. What are your suggestions for situations involving children and unavailable assclowns?
I would say (although i havent got children so how valid this idea is is questionable lol) but just keep the contact to the bare minimum and only contact about your son (i.e. when he’s picking his son up/dropping him off etc) any other communication is NOT needed, and if he tries to bash his way back in just ignore any other contact? (like if he just texts to ask how YOU are… ignore but if its when to pick up his son, you must put your sons needs in first and carry on communicating about your son ONLY) hope that helps =) xxx
Jennifer
I have a child now 22 yrs old and have never had much of anything to do with her father (who I was very much in love – no infatuated with – at one time) and he has never had much of anything to do with us it has to be said – so I wasn’t exactly having to beat him off with a stick.
But here’s your problem:
“I also, for whatever reason, still find myself at times hoping that things will improve and he’ll once again be the person I met way back when.”
He won’t be. Once you get that, NC – on your part at least – will feel very easy indeed.
22 years ago I was in your situation with a 23 year-old but without BR. I had a court order as to how to deal. The trade off was always in a public place. Stay public and do not engage him. It hurts. I know. Don’t go back. I’ve been the only support for my daughter. It sucks but sometimes guys are simply toads. F***k them. My daughter simply adores her dad, despite the fact he has not contributed to her at all. I may need to sue him for tons of back child support. Or I may just let him be a total dick who never supported his daughter.
Runner
“Or I may just let him be a total dick who never supported his daughter.”
I took that attitude from word go eve before my daughter was born, when I realised he was going to contribute absolutely no support – not emotional, not financial, not practical – none.
I didn’t want a fight for a few begrudged pennies. His family have been very supportive of and she has good relationships with them. She has no time or respect for her father tho’, who now (that she is a stunning 22 year old young woman – and a lovely person too) has tried to make some connection with her. She just raises her eyes and goes ‘pfft’. Her feelings are purely her own as I have never tried to influence her about him.
I never wanted to put myself through a never ending struggle to get him to behave like a father. I watched a friend of mine do that with her estranged husband for years and all it led to was unrelenting disappointment for her and her son). I had the attitude that to “just let him be a total dick who never supported his daughter” would be less hassle and less pain all round.
The joke is that this man is shameless. When I do bump into him he chats away and asks how his daughter is doing, as if his abandonment of his child was the most natural thing in the world, as if he was full of wisdom in doing the “right thing” in just letting us get on with it by ourselves without his “interference”! A number of people (including people on his side of the “family”) have told me how impressed they have been all these years with the dignity with which I handled the whole thing.
Sorry if I am way off topic on this but I think I must have had a shame alarm switched on then at least for my baby of not for me; she was the whole motivation behind my behaviour; I would never have undignified her, or have her look like anything remotely resembling ‘shame’; we went through some hard times yet the last person in world I would have turned to for help was ‘him’ (thankfully I had other people who loved and cared about us). I may not have been so careful with what my own deal breakers are but I had no doubt about what hers should be, and begging her father for some attention for her – on her behalf – was not a ‘shame’ I would have wanted attached to her through any of my doing – not in a million years.
Funny how doing the right thing by those we really love comes to us without much thought at all – we just know it. Yet doing the right thing by ourselves seems to take a lot of effort.
Yes Fearless, it is so true. I knew exactly what I needed to do in order to raise my daughter. There was no need to gravel for pennies or make him change to be the father I needed him to be. There was an innate shame alarm that went off. When I found out I was pregnant my first thoughts were can I support this child ALONE. I knew at 28 that I’d be supporting my child alone. I’m with you totally. Her father loves her very much and takes great pride in all her accomplishments as though he’s contributed somehow. I’m now at the point where I don’t much care. You are right. I knew and know my deal breakers when it comes to my daughter. It’s simple.
@Jennifer, you are just beginning. Protect yourself and your son from any verbal abuse from his father. That is ground zero. Enter 2012 with a no verbal abuse resolution and do not expose your son to such episodes. You need to break the cycle even if it means going it on your own. He’s not going to change…so sorry. We are here and wishing you the best.
Whenever a love relationship has ended in my life, I always try to conduct myself with dignity and respect, and in doing so I avoided showing any anger toward my departing partners. I would simply marginalize their decisions to end the relationships…perhaps tell them not to worry about it, etc., hold my head up high, never let them know how much they hurt me, and tell them not to worry about me, and then I would cut them out of my life for good, nice and neat…no problems, but behind closed doors, sometimes I would be crying my eyes out.
Sometimes, I would suggest that we stay friends, but I would turn right around and cut them out of my life, just so I had a chance to be the one to walk away, or because I later felt too disrespected to be their friend, and so I would just disappear out of their lives without warning. I think I rather enjoyed letting them know what it felt like to be blind-sided, rejected, and dismissed…objectified.
Before I read this post, I was still feeling ashamed, not of my mean spirited retaliations, but of not telling them how much they hurt me, and how I really felt. I would have loved to tell them “about themselves.”
Yet, I know that if I had given them a piece of my mind, I would be feeling ashamed about that instead.
I guess the real shame comes from knowing that I chose to put their feelings, their needs before my own, and I still cringe at the disrespect that I showed toward myself. If I could go back, I would have responded differently: I had boundaries. I just didn’t enforce them. How I wish I had had the life skills to enforce them…still feel ashamed, but….
Thank you for sharing your journey Natalie. I feel more hopeful about overcoming my dysfunctional past because you just gave me a process.
Wishing everyone a Happy New Year!
I have just finished writing out what I will and won’t accept and how I will handle myself in future dating situations. I figure this is best done now while I am not dating anyone so that I can use it lest the time ever come where I lengthen my yardstick or seek to make exceptions for an assclown.
I will not be demoted to friend after a date or a relationship doesn’t turn out AND I will not give out friend cards to ex-dates or exes. This *DEVALUES* my real friendships! They will have to step- mandatory. If I wanted a friend I would have made one from the get-go.
No longer will I be saying “let’s be friends.” from now on it will be “We have to stop seeing and contacting each other.”
Ex dates and exes make crappy friends – they’re spending their time on other people, not me. It’s just unavailability under another guise.
1. No longer will I be saying “let’s be friends,” from now on it will be “I don’t want to see you anymore. Do not contact me ever again.”
I’m the exact same way. I always put on a persona of everything being fine when in reality it is anything but. I am almost always the one behind closed doors crying my eyes out. I too would have loved to tell the last guy everything that was wrong with him but I really don’t feel it would have been my place as I am a firm believer that people should be aware on their own, plus he’s so in denial that I doubt it would have made any difference besides making me feel better in the moment. And my shame is also the same as yours. It’s one of the things I regret the most.
Hey NML, it is Aboutme in NYC
I know that I dont post that often, but I read your blog consistently without fail. This blog is an important part of my life.
Anyway, as far as boundaries go, I did not consciously realize that I had boundaries but my Spirit did. All of the second guessing, gut sickness, sadness, obsessive discussions, etc was my Spirit telling me that my boundaries were being busted. I have applied boundaries and a no BS diet in my girlfriend relationships too. This new person is hard for people to deal with. This is an example of a friend busting my boundaries.
One evening, I was having dinner with a long time friend, and two other friends and one of them happen to be a man. Well, since I have seriously started working on myself, I am happier and I believe that it shows…the happy me is coming out. Well, I was very chatty during dinner and discussing my views on politics. (I am very interested in politics and have strong views). My long time friend, starts to weave into the discussions all of my flaws, mishaps with men, etc. I did not appreciate it especially since there was a man there and the other woman did not know me that well. I tried to laugh it off, but I started to feel uncomfortable (Spirit talking to me again). I told her that she was very wrong in a very non threatening manner. Then, just slightly I started to turn the tables on her…I asked her about her old boyfriend. However, I did not bring up her dirt. The “good-girl syndrom” would not allow me to go for the jungler. I wish that I had gone completely ugly on her. I am not sure exactly why I just did not rip her apart??? Btw, I believe the other two people knew that my long time friend was out of place for discussing my personal business over dinner. I felt like she was trying to put me back in my “place”. I felt like the underlying point of her verbal assault was to say “hey, who do you think you are, I knew you when you blah, blah, blah. It was just no reason to bring up all that old mess.
This is an interesting post Aboutme. You should post more. Yeah, I agree when we start to act on boundaries we do tend to sort the wheat from chaff in friendships as well..
I too like to discuss current affairs,politics, whats happening on the News. It’s true that you have to watch your parameters for sure but I do feel that as an intelligent human being, living today, we have to have say.. I have also noticed that occasionally I am ‘tripped up’ by a particular woman friend. It’s like, ‘don’t show your knowledge’.Keep it sweet.
In the past, I shut up. These days… I feel entitled to opinion, will never hog discussion but will not let a sexist, racist,off the rack right wing opinion go either.
It’s sad but some of our friends do not want us to shine. Its also easy, if they are like this then they are not our friends. It’s an swift call to action for romantic relationships too…
This has just reminded me of a comment by the EUM that ‘sometimes I needed to dumb down’.(When talking to his female in-laws and friends)!
An insult on many fronts, whatever way you look at it. For me, for them.
Thanks for the insight on this Aboutme.
Hi AboutMe! Your friend was being a twat and running interference with her frienemy ways. Always remember that when you start loving yourself and establishing boundaries, it is very possible that there are people who will resent it because they actually feel more comfortable when you’re down. Don’t let her steal your wind. Her behaviour is actually a sign that you’re doing well. Don’t sweat it.
Hello,
This is an interesting observation AboutMe, and yes it feels like she was being passiveAggressive. I had the exact same thing with a friend openly discussing my mis-shaped and shameful ex relationship over a busy dinner table. I think you did a good thing by not ‘going for her jugular’ becasue you’d be stooping to her low level of conduct. I have found that when a situation like the above happens, if we deal with it in a manner that we are later displeased with we should think through just how we could have done it better, in ready for next time so you’ll have a ready response. Basically us fall-back no-boundary girls dont have the experience of how to tackle boundry-busters as we have a lifetime of bad habits to correct. Its all one step at a time.
I’d say that next time something along these lines happens just say in a firm yet cool manner ”I dont wish to discuss or pick apart my past over dinner thank you”, then swiftly change the subject to something obviously banal like ”mmmm nice curtains”.
We are all ‘works in progress’ as many on here say
Thanks for your post
Kim xx
Thanks ladies for the insight. After I got home that night, I had a bout with the “I should have said this, I should have said that”. But you are right, no need for gutter behavior. However, I definitely did not second guess my assessment of the situation.
I have noticed, that women are expected to dump down, or simply just not fully show up in life for fear of making people feel uncomfortable. I hate to say this, but I have watched my mom do this consistently when she travels down South to see our relatives. She dresses, speaks and acts differently.
Now, I understand that you do not want to intentionally make people feel uncomfortable. For me, moving away from home at a young age, getting a education and working with a diversity of people has made me a very different person. I have different opinions, interests and taste in food than a lot of my relatives and friends. So, the question that I ask myself lately, where do you draw the line so that you dont begin to down play yourself or stifle your opinion and knowledge. When do you separate yourself from people who really do not want you to shine??
As a woman, you have to walk this fine. This is why shows like the Housewives of Atlanta and others are so popular. Because the minute you step out of the beaten path….you best be prepared to deal with the fallout. It makes for great T.V but in real life it is sad and stressful for women. Also, this is why these shows are not based on men, they dont wrestle with these types of issues.
I srill feel ashamed. Ashamed of thinking about him. Many times during the day. It seems that I can’t forget that easily. One song, one smell, one small thing and I’m right back where I shouldn’t have been. There are no words to describe what I’ve done to “win” him during the past 2 years of my life. Now, that we are at the end of this year and with the hope of a better one ahead, I think it’s time to move on and start loving myself. I was a person with little or no limits. I cried a lot because of his dsappearances and I still don’t know how a person, man or woman (I’m talking in general), can forget about someone that once (not long ago) shared many feelings and wonderful moments with him/her. For me it’s impossible. So effortlessly, so easily. Like I was zero, nothing. I need to do a lot of work with myself. And I mean a LOT of work. Otherwise I’ll never be happy. I’ll always carry this shaddow in my heart forever. And nobody can live with such a weight.
Alice, No Contact takes a lot of work. Your feelings don’t stop happening. You don’t just instantly stop feeling as you did nor do you instantly stop thinking about the one you have strong feelings for. It’s a process. Work at it and you will find you will become better…it takes awhile. You may never be able to understand the cruelty of another as you are not like them. Let that be. Take care of yourself and love yourself. Set up boundaries. Value yourself. Do the work. Stay with us. Keep reading. Check out the “getting past your break-up” site that ‘s listed on this blog to the right. She and Nat are like soul-sisters. It’s not an easy ride but it is worth it.
No contact is so hard but it does work- finally. Eight months on I am still seeing the psychologist but it is really becoming less frequent and mostly talking about rebuilding and keeping it that way.
I felt a lot of self-shame for a long time until I gave myself licence to make mistakes and forgive myself and stop judging myself so harshly.
It is nice to wake up and not feel a huge compulsion to go and try and come up with plan 101 to ‘win’ them back or be scared that I might see their car or bump into them and have a panic attack.
Alice,
I was posting as Clarissa but didn’t much like the name so have changed it to a character from the Tove Janssen books. Anyway I am going through all this shame, grief, regret, ruminating. I have notbeen well either for 3 weeks which has not helped. I struggle with the idea of never ever seeing him again. But the thing is I know is that the sooner I get this over with, the sooner I can get on with my life. This time of year is hard too, the weather is awful and we overeat which doesn’t help a feeling of wellbeing. However I find that I don’t feel consistently awful. Some days or parts of days are better – played scrabble last night with my family, laughed, talked about ideas and music.. It was fun. This morning it was my sons 8th birthday – cuddling him made my heart lift. Back in a swamp now but I know the good times will get more frequent and the bad less painful. You will get through this, do nice things in spite of the bad feelings, I do believe there’s light at the end of the tunnel.
Alice,
I was posting as Clarissa but didn’t much like the name so have changed it to a character from the Tove Janssen books. Anyway I am going through all this shame, regret, ruminating. I have notbeen well either for 3 weeks which has not helped. I struggle with the idea of never ever seeing him again. But the thing is I know is that the sooner I get this over with, the sooner I can get on with my life. This time of your is hard too, the weather is awful and we overeat which doesn’t help a feeling of wellbeing. Also I find that I don’t feel consistently awful. Some days or parts of days are better – played scrabble last night with my family, laughed, talked about ideas and music.. It was fun. This morning it was my sons 8th birthday – cuddling him made my heart lift. Back in a swamp now but I know the good times will get more frequent and the bad less painful. You will get through this, do nice things in spite of the bad feelings, I do believe there’s light at the end of the tunnel.
alice
For over three years I thought I wouldn’t get over the ex. But I did. probably took five years all in all.
Still a long time, but no where near forever or always. Don’t talk yourself into a dungeon.
It wasn’t complete misery for five years, don’t panic. And for most of it I didn’t have BR to help me through it.
Alice, there will be a day when you think of him less. You just have to trust yourself and know that. I read of time limits…but everyone is different. It took me two years to get the Alky out of my head and another two years of celibacy to sort out what had happened. It also took a EUM/W relationship for me to go through before I feel the way I do today which is clearer of purpose and motivated and living in the Now. However, I did not have this site for the start of that journey. The No Contact Rule helps a lot but also so does just accepting that there will be days when you feel tied to him with an iron chain and then days when you actually feel light of heart. If you just keep going the latter days get more. I do think that staying on site helps.
One thing, be tough on yourself in certain ways, gentle in others. Tough:Don’t wallow!We can all hang around smells, play songs, read meaning into TV programmes. Stop that. It goes, if you leave it alone.
Gentle: You have come so far in recognising why you need to be apart from him..marvel at that. Love you. Do things for you. Learn something new. I’m learning about certain types of Classical Music that I knew nothing about. I’m baking again. I’m going to run again.
These seem trite but they are not. They are about you. Not him.
… there will be days when you feel tied to him with an iron chain and then days when you actually feel light of heart.
My experience, too, Lynda. Some days I can fly and others, I can barely get out of bed. The important part is to keep choosing yourself EVERYDAY. On my low days, I’m posting on BR for support….
Alice
I just wanted to add another comment for support. There was a time only a couple of months ago where I was on the verge of asking my doctor for anti-depressants because I just couldn’t get him out of my head. I was unable to listen to my IPod because half the tunes on there reminded me of him in some way or another, certain TV programmes seemed to have some hidden meaning about our relationship, certain items of my clothes I couldn’t wear because I wore them when I was with him. I couldn’t get past the fact that we shared sooo many fun/good times and he has just deleted me and not looked back or tried to make contact with me even once! But believe me when I tell you it gets better/easier. He still crosses my mind but just not in the same way. Your not on your own girl, just believe it will get better and carry on living your life. 🙂
Alice,
I’m struggling with this as well. A couple of things that help me:
1) Remind myself that even if he were my present, loving boyfriend, I would still have to live my life. So say I’m walking down the street and I get a wave of grief. I think, “I am walking down the street on my way to work. I would have to walk down the street on my way to work anyway. Just walk down the street.” And I try to breathe and be present to the walk. Same at work. Would I have to get this task done anyway? Yes, I would. So focus on it. Would I still have to do my laundry? Yes. I can do the laundry boyfriend or no boyfriend.
2) Another site I frequent calls what you describe “triggers.” And there’s a breakup guru who says “Does it hurt when you do that? Don’t do it!!” So I have a lot of triggers. All music (he’s an omnivore and filled my hard drive with 16,000 songs). Indie cultural events. My apartment (where we lived). I have so many triggers that I have trouble getting through several pages of a book without something sending me into a regretful reverie. So I’d been forcing myself, as kind of immersion therapy, to experience these same things. Just today, I thought, it hurts when I do that. What can I do and enjoy that is mine and always was? Dance and bodywork. Mystery novels. Writing. My close friends. So I’ll start there. I don’t have to force myself to go to some trendy underground event so that he doesn’t “own” that territory. It hurts when I do that. It might change, but I went to an experimental music thing alone the other night and just silently sobbed. I’m not ready.
3) Present attention. What is happening now, right now? So I went to yoga this morning and saw someone using props in a really neat way and tried it. And at the end of the class, I said, “That feels so great, the weights on the forearms. I wish I’d discovered that years ago.” And my yoga teacher, who is wise to the point of ESP, and has known me for 20 years, said, “But isn’t it great that you’re discovering it now? So that you can enjoy it now?”
4) Not grieving at any given moment does not mean that *he* is forgetting me. I have this strange compulsion to obsess and grieve as if I am a hired mourner for the lost potential of our love. I’m not betraying something or falling down on the job if I take a damn break.
Wow, just wanted to say thank you for all of these posts ladies. I’m feeling what you are feeling and your words are incredible and are helping me so much today, and everyday I come to BR.
Alice, just like you can’t get instant intimacy and instant love and long lasting ‘instant’ gratification, you can’t get over someone instantly. It takes devoting ever fibre of your being into positive energy into you. The more time that passes, the greater objectivity gained, the new memories gained, the less these things mean. Nobody instantly forgets unless they’re psychotic or have some form of amnesia.
I’m the same way. And what you said about one song, one anything really reminding you of the person also sits very true with me as well. It gets much better, over time. It truly does. It is a difficult journey but you too will move past it. It’s been almost 7 months for me and I’ll admit that from time to time he still pops into my mind but it’s not the same. It’s usually a fleeting thought when not much else is going on. One that goes as quickly as it came. It doesn’t make me sad to think about the “moments” we had anymore. Instead, I view them as just another instance in my life. I too don’t know how people can just use someone and then throw them aside with little regard. I say we be thankful that we don’t understand it.
I love this column. I could not figure out for the life of me why I put up with the outrageous behavior from the last two nitwits. I think part of the shame was from having “fallen” for their crap. They both came on so strong, and then practically broke my neck yanking my chain after I was hooked. The first one I met on vacation, and on the bus to the airport on our way home, he says to the driver, “I’m going to marry this lovely lady.” I half believed him, though I knew it was more likely a green card he was after than me. A few teeny tiny bottles of whiskey later, and he’s screaming at me as we’re waiting for our luggage, “What do you want? A ring?!” I was mortified. I felt so stupid. Then he tried to hand me his business card on his way to catch a taxi home. Why didn’t I just take it? It could have been all over. But I balked, and he grudgingly asked for my number. Four years later, he’d bullied his way into my life, bullied his way into my house, and almost bullied me into marrying him. I thought I had no pride left, and no shame, but he managed to set off the shame alarm when he started gleefully announcing to everyone we met that he was “mooching” off me (he’d quit his job and was spending his days drinking and womanizing), and publicly bragging about cheating on me. People were appalled. I guess it was THEIR shame that I couldn’t bear, not my own. After he gave me an engagement ring, I started trying to convince myself that there were worse things than being married to an emotionally abusive unemployed alcoholic. At least he didn’t hit me! Yow.
Bunny Blue, it sounds like you were picked up by a con artist at the airport. Unfortunately from the moment you didn’t hear alarm bells ringing over his attempt at instant intimacy with that shite Future Faking declaration, the moment he knew that the con was on. This was an abusive relationship. Do not be afraid to seek counselling.
I hear you: “People were appalled. I guess it was THEIR shame that I couldn’t bear, not my own.” “After he gave me an engagement ring, I started trying to convince myself that there were worse things than being married to an emotionally abusive unemployed alcoholic. At least he didn’t hit me! Yow.” Please run. You can’t get much worse. I’m betting physical abuse is just down the road. Run before you are hit. I’ve survived many unexpected beatings, thank god. But there is no reason on the planet a man should hit a woman. Try to articulate how it is that a man twice the size of a woman is justified in hitting a woman? Don’t hang around to find out. RUN!
My shame alarm brought me to this site courtesy of google a year ago, while researching ‘blowing hot and cold’, I was dating a man who chased me for weeks, and then once dating, engaged in dubious, intermittent communication and not so nice ‘jokes.’ I immediately went no contact and have been open minded to new types (not as successful or glamorous as my past exes) and really serious about a healthy relationship. I have always had high standards and morals (was never a mm chaser or a fbgirl) but was still single. I had hoped that by educating myself, and following all the sage BR relationship advice verbatim, the very next relationship would be happily ever after. Unfortunately, the healthier relationship also ended after several months, not because he was engaged in shady behavior or signs of disinterest, but because he didn’t want kids & wanted me to make all the major sacrifices to fit into his life, dealbreakers. He was available, and committed, but on his terms only. Because of my age, he probably thought I would do any thing for a relationship. So, I am now pondering and googling compromise and settling, rather than EU. I see a lot of married women putting up with crappy behavior from their husbands and am beginning to wonder if that is healthier than being single- which just plain sucks. Although it’s good to date with boundaries and self esteem, it isn’t a guarantee of marriage and babies- which is all I want and all I think about. You can abort mission at the very first signs of disinterest, but that is just that, damage control, playing defensively. It doesn’t feel like success, just another depressing scenerio that you are being forced to ‘opt out’ of, nothing you can do. It is not a relief to hear “there will be others” when there have been more than enough, I want the next one to be my husband.
Anon
I too ended up here by googling “why do men blow hot and cold” because I dated someone who chased me initially, wined and dined me, swept my off my feet, then whilst dating, started avoiding me, stopped calling/texting etc.. I too have decided to look outside “my type” i.e. successful/professional/glamorous. This guy was handsome, successful and available but also only wanted some kind of relationship on HIS terms. I’m tired now because I just want the next one to be my husband!
Anon, Eau de Desperation just isn’t a good scent no matter what age you are. Remain desperate and disparaging of being single, and treating you having some self-respect and doing the due diligence that billions of other people do as some sort of pain in the arse, and a desperate relationship awaits you.
The man who didn’t want kids and only wanted a relationship on his terms? Incompatible and unavailable. Commitment willing people know that they have to copilot not bully you into their terms.
You can settle for whatever you like – just remember, you get what you settle for. The choice is all yours.
Anon,
I’m going to call this as I see it, with respect. Firstly you actually found this site, not courtesy of google but because of Nat and everyone who posts and shares. It exists because of her.
I wonder about your assumptions. Did your healthy relationship falter because of his comments about your age or because you assumed he felt a certain way about your expectations. I say this because once I got BR, and other supports I began to ask for what I wanted, clarified points, specifically repeated what I meant. Before this, I had assumed. Too much.
Anon, you have already googled,’ Hot and Cold’, you are now by admission, googling ‘compromise and settling’. What do you truly want and need. Speak about it. Go for it. Never settle.
Single doesn’t suck. It’s about you. Always. Not someone else. This is not the sad cul de sac of the newly separated. I speak with the proud voice of a woman of choice, someone who has been married and in long term relationships. I need to be me more than I need to be defined by a relationship. For now and forever.
This marriage and babies clock. I have my boy who is twenty one. I have an ex husband. But I would have been a mum regardless.
Nothing is dependent on a man. If you want a child, you will.
I read over your post there, opt outs, guarantees,damage control, doesn’t ‘feel like success’
There is rarely that. There is experience and exploration and gut feeling and shared values. There is a lot of tolerance I think. You seem to be making lists….on a sideline somewhere, looking in. Believe me when I say this is not a criticism, but your name on site, Anon,it confirms the sideline does it not. As if,when you are sure, you will put a moniker on.. You need as Nat says to start making choices.
Wow Nat, I love all your posts, but this one blew me away. Every person on earth should read this one. I posted a couple of months ago about the man I wasn’t sure was EU. He had pulled away saying he had a lot of issues to deal with. Well two days ago he apologizes to me, saying “I am sorry about how I handled this. Like I told you before I am not good at dealing with things like this”. So I asked him what he was sorry about specifically and crickets. Later that night he texts me this ” i do have issues, much more than I ever realized…. I know I can’t ever make this any of this right and I’m sorry to have stirred things up. Sorry and remorse will never be enough for my actions”. I know it’s just a text but do you think this is a genuine apology?
Genie, it’s just a text which is a mix of an apology, excuses and then alluding to his gigantasaurus problems. Obviously he does have issues (you only have to note that he’s 1) texting this stuff and 2) talking in gobbledygook but making out like it totally makes sense) but you have to ask yourself: does this *really* matter?
Is it an apology? Yeah but how heartfelt and genuine is up to you to decide. It’s just a text. I wouldn’t spend another second analysing. You’ll note that the heavens haven’t opened, angels haven’t sung, and you’re still exactly the same person. Apologies don’t do as much as we’d like them to.
Nat,
“talking in gobbledygook but making out like it totally makes sense”
Lol. Mine did this all the time and it infuriated me beyond words. It’s so effortless for them to send out the gobbledegook text riddles – try getting him to explain what he means in person in joined-up sentences that come out of his mouth and he hasn’t got a scooby what he means. They are just big daft boys. They think any old garbled nonsense will do, and sadly they are often right.
The more they say, the worse it gets!!!
Yoshizzle, you are so right. Get you used to hearing from them every day and then gone and it’s just supposed to be ok. The funny thing is about a week before he aked why I never pressured him to leave and that he needed me to pressure him and let him know when I was upset. Needless to say I still didn’t pressure him but did let him know I was upset about the lack of communication and he then tells me “I act like the sky is falling.” You can’t win with them. And while his wife is no prize, neither is he,they deserve each other.
Day 8 NC. woohoo.
“You can’t win with them.” No, Ms Option, you can’t and you won’t. That’s the whole point. Good luck with the NC. If you’re serious you’ll be blocking all his numbers and any on-line access points. Cos only thing you know is that he will be back when he wants something from you.
My deal breaker was that I found out through reading an email the ex EUM/AC wrote, that he had met another woman and was making the relationship ‘official’; he wanted to keep me hanging on and to be honest, had I not gone into his email account and read the said email, then I would, sadly, most likely be hanging on!!! I’m sad it didn’t work out and I can still feel a bit confused about it all but I accept that it’s over and I’m moving on and thanks to Natalie, this site and all you ladies I will never be in a
relationship like that again so I suppose I should be grateful for that. He phoned me today, of course I ignored his call but answered the text that followed, he wanted to know if he was still in the car breakdown service and said he was annoyed that he’s not allowed to phone me!!!!! He wanted to end the relationship but wants me to continue to do his university work for him, listen to him go on about nothing because he likes the sound of his own voice and listen to him and stroke his ego when ever he’s upset!!! And he used to tell me I wanted it all ways, which I never but he obviously does!!! In some ways I wanted him to call but really I didn’t and don’t want him to call cos I know he’s not gonna change to being emotionally available as he still thinks the reason we split was cos I was a ‘psycho’ like all his other ex girlfriends!!!
Lovingme – nobody is that unlucky and a psycho magnet that all of their exes are psychos. He’s an asshole and probably a psycho himself with a brass pair of nuts. Please grow a pair and tell this parasite to fuck off and get his new woman to run around for him and don’t so much as give him the time of day. If you do, he’ll think he’s legit for calling you a psycho because it will beg the question of what kind of woman let’s a man treat her this way – not you.
Grace and Fearless-
Thanks for the replies. You’re right, I’m not getting down to the real reasons. I have more working on me to do. I’m struggling with depression, discipline, and time management–as a single lady–and though I like to be in relationships, it’s not time for one. I don’t even really know who I am right now. I want so badly to be satisfied by the crumbs of this menial relationship, but duh, they are called “crumbs” for a reason. Besides all of that, do you think that there are actual college-aged men who are ready for commitment? Is the stereotype of commitment-phobed college men that off base? Because I feel like there’s a lot of truth to it. And if so, does that mean I have to wait until I’m out of college to truly expect something worth my time?
Breeze, if you listened to half of the bullshit drivel that we say about what men of a certain age want, no guy would ever be in a relationship. My friend had been married to the guy she met in college for 12 years – they married while they were *in* college. My assistant Kate has been with her husband since she was 16 and they recently celebrated their 10th wedding anniversary. Men who are in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s don’t commit just like guys of the same age and in their 20s *do* commit. Fact is, I don’t even know why you’re asking – you are not commitment able at this time.
Hey Nat!
What a great post…I am waiting with bated breath for Your book to arrive:)!
I have been recently going out on a few dates,and I can tell you that by Alarm clock is ticking exactly how it should be because of BR..
I cannot beleive the Bull shit that comes out of Mens Mouths,the last was telling me within 10 minute of our meeting that he was John Gotti{MOB} cousin????Weirdo!!!!UMMM EXIT!!!
Like is that supposed to impress me?
I am super happy to report that it has been over 2 months of No Contact with the Coward,Its hard at times as I work with his sister,and over Xmas she started telling me how much this Man was having a good time on xmas day,I didnt ask,and I instantly got angry,I noticed how my mood changed..I fought back the tears and simply told her I am glad they had a good xmas…As for the gambling issue,I have twice,but a huge leap from someone who did every day for the last 3 months….Im getting better every day and finding that I am healing….
Much love
Brenda
Brenda, your sharing of the gambling, stays with me and inspires me, you brave girl. Good on you that it’s lessened. But tough love, lessen it more…
His sister if she stresses you by stories, I know it’s hard but don’t prolong contact, you don’t need that. You are evolving, progressing,changing.
Laughed at the date. Heal on strong one.x
Thank you Lynda..
You are right,and I need Tough Love!
The Gambling,much like a Bad relationship I hang on too,Has been there for so long it has become so much a part of my everyday life.
A girlfriend of mine,actually the one who told me about this site,has been with a man for 7 years who is an alcoholic and a gambler.
She calls me everyday with some horror story of how this Man treats her.And Yet she hangs on to him like he is the last Man on earth.
He gambles everything away,no money for even the staples of life,like food.
I find that thru her,and her tales of this Man,I see now how much gambling has affected my life so negativly,relationships,family,work etc..
I simply tell her that until he admits he has a problem and gets help,there will NEVER be the relationship she desires.
So it puts into respective for me,that then and untilnI change my behavior I will never be free to find someone healthy for me.
Healthy behavior begets Healthy behavior and I am working on that in my life!!!
Happy New Year
Brenda
Hi Natalie,
Thank you again for a wonderful wise post.
I notice that you rarely mention love in your blogs (the ones that I’ve read). In this one you again you only say if “I feel that I love him” rather than if “I love him” when you were talking about deciding what your deal breaker is. This surprises me. Do you not believe it’s possible for someone to love an EUM? Or do I have the wrong end of the stick here?
Sorry if this isn’t on topic.
These posts are about unhealthy relationships, deal breakers, etc. Some people do love unavailable people. Some don’t. They think they do, but they don’t. If love looks like some of the unbelievably unhealthy relationships, booty calls, being used and abused, making a tit of yourself, I’d hate to see what being disliked looks like… I’d also argue that if you’re unavailable and playing out patterns from childhood, the depth of your love *for* the person in front of you is questionable. But if you’re unavailable, the love is limited anyway. Love isn’t just a feeling – it’s an action.
“Love isn’t just a feeling – it’s an action.”
Nat, that reminds me so much of something I’ve heard my mother say many times: “love is a doing word” (most often to my dad! lol).
We would all do well to remember this, I think. If he’s not doing it, he’s not feeling it. (and text messaging is not him doing it – it’s him *not* doing it!) As for some of us women, rolling yourself out like a doormat is not love, it’s self-imposed servitude.
It’s taken me the better part of 9 months to really start to enforce my boundaries. The first steps I took were small ones, and it started with no longer interpretting every single, simple request someone makes of me as “JUMP!” and to stop responding with the proverbial “HOW HIGH?” Just like when Natalie says “It’s only a text”, I had to train myself to think “It’s only a small favor, it’s only a party invitation, it’s only a date, etc.” Even if I acted calm and collected and not put out on the outside, the inside of my was secretly screaming “Be the best, be everywhere, be everyone, be perfect.” Flipping exhausting! And on TOP of that, I pretty much refused to let anyone do ME a favor or offer their help in even the smallest way.
Learning how to take everything for what it truly is (and very few things were ever really as important as they seemed to me at the time), getting used to saying no, only giving what I can comfortably afford financially, physically, and emotionally, and understanding that disappointment that I feel and what others feel is part of the natural ebb and flow of life, is SO MUCH easier. I won’t have to make very many seemingly soul crushing decisions if I continue make the smaller, easier ones along the way. I’m sure that I haven’t encountered my last d-bag in life, but none of them will ever have a foot hold in it again if keep this up.
Happy Girl, great post. Yes, been there, funny how the ‘ how high?’ sits comfortably with the’ Be perfect’.
It is exhausting… I was bred to be independent, by the worst ways and asking for help seems such an imposition.. I get that. Totally.
It is as you say about acceptance, actually daily about the ebb and flow of life. I love that actually. Thankyou for reminding me tonight.
Kirsten- my ex used to do exactly the sane thing to me. But I didn’t stand up for myself. A year later I got dumped by text and verbally abused. Coz I didn’t stand up for myself. I wish I had dumped the jerk and not put up with such crap. Why do they test us? I feel you can’t win no matter what you do?
When I read this I immediately thought of the WOPR computer in War Games: “the only way to win is not to play”.
I don’t know, I struggle with this. I think on some level the fact that we put up with the crappy behavior proves to assclowns that we’re not worth it. They can transfer all of their self-worth issues onto us, because hey – if we weren’t worthless we’d tell them to take a hike – enabling them to be their worst. Even intellectually knowing that I’m worth more, doesn’t mean I get it emotionally. My friends told me I was worth more, but I too put up with the crap.
So I guess the short answer is I don’t know either, but reading the stories of women here has helped?
Loving this post and all the great threads that it has drawn out. Feeling generally good, strong, and positive, but want to unearth and air out some painful stuff this post brings up.
I have been visiting my family home over Xmas and have had a number of moments where I was about to step onto that downward shame spiral and stopped myself, realizing with some awe how easily we slip into old patterns. The Magnolia-is-unhappy-and-frustrated-and-we-all-wish-she-were-less-demanding story is one that I fight to see differently. It’s almost like we all have moved on but I can’t help but see everyone in the old patterns that I decided are real. For example, in recent years I often stretch a bit to see my father as taking advantage of my mother, then I feel guilty and ashamed for seeing the ‘worst’ in them. Then a new thing happens to confirm my views and I get all indignant about my father’s behaviour, but feel really validated. Then a bit later I’m feeling like shit for having had harsh thoughts and emotions about these aging, generally good people. I also struggle to accept that THEY don’t see me in the way I decided they do in my old scripts.
I’m also feeling a lot of shame around having shared my discontent with my roommate with my family and with my best friend. This is because 1) I feel ashamed of having an issue with my roommate enough that I am alienated from her, 2) I am ashamed of ‘having’ to speak about it, of complaining about yet another relationship, after complaining about so many, and 3) I am almost under the ground with shame thinking about how I have complained about my family to my roomie, about my best friend to my family, and so on. It’s like I complain to whoever I’m with to whoever I am not with. I feel like I betray everyone I am close to.
I also have felt shame within the past month or so (despite my general overall shame-diet) over not meeting my school deadlines, over my recent weight gain, over my lack of property ownership and lack of kids and partner, etc., over not having written the books I have intended to, and over simply having chosen to be a writer/academic.
The question this post raises for me is how do we separate the shame that we inflict on ourselves unnecessarily from the shame of actually behaving counter to our best interests? For example, many would say I have nothing to be ashamed of surrounding my financial status or marital status. So feeling *that* shame isn’t an indication that I need to end any particular relationship – is the shame in fact an alarm indicating that I should change careers?
My thought is that for me, relying on shame as an alarm is difficult, because I (still) feel shame so regularly (though less than before, and now I’m more conscious of it). If I used shame as the indicator, then I would cut off my family and almost every one of my friends, because I have felt shame over who I am while with them, and sometimes I think it’s triggered in my interactions with them, which makes me feel quite similar to when interacting with the ACs made me feel bad.
Perhaps a little example will help: my friends have always said my sister is a bit of a diva who has a habit of treating me condescendingly. It has taken me some time to agree with some of it. This visit she looks at me as we’re out and says, “Do you want a new coat?” I’m like, “What’s wrong with this one?” From her answer it’s clear that what I am wearing is unflattering to her eyes. Thing is, it’s kind of unflattering to my eyes, too. So I feel shame that I’m wearing a coat I KNOW is not flattering. I feel like the dowdy, bookish older sister until I rallied and said I was fine with what I have. But – hmm – I got a new coat for Xmas! And it is indeed nicer than my old one.
Now this is just one thing out of many days of decent and good interaction. I’ll remember it forever, likely, and the next time something happens where she indicates her assessment of my physicality (she also stared at my butt in horror for a moment before composing herself – yes, I have gained weight since she last saw me) … well, I’m kind of at a point where I shrug it off. I don’t have to take on the shame. I guess if I were feeling strong I’d just laugh it off, and wouldn’t feel compelled to complain about her, and then wouldn’t be feeling the shame either of taking on her views nor of turning myself into a whiner.
But figuring out what counts as crap behaviour from others that I should just distance myself from, or just let roll off, is difficult.
I feel that some of my own behaviours, like complaining about one friend to another; overeating; procrastinating, THESE cause so much shame that I feel like I’m the bigger problem. I don’t feel fully discerning about who to interact with because I can’t tell where the shame is coming from: a poor relationship choice, or EU behaviour on my part.
For example, I feel like my roomie has valid reason for not wanting to hear my angry rants about racism. I don’t talk about these things calmly, or without accusation; my god, it’s all practically in the same tone I use when I complain about her or my family. So why turn her distancing herself from me into her bad behaviour, when it could be a consequence of mine?
This kind of self-questioning dominated my interactions with ACs (their fault or mine?)
Magnolia, I would take the fact that you seem to find a way of having a blanket shame about everything as a major alarm that you need to address your *own* feelings. It’s the same as people who say everything no matter how small has ‘hurt’ them – you need to expand your range of emotions, have some ‘levels’ to what is going on in your life so that you can prioritise, and stop shaming yourself. It’s by and large you shaming you for things that by and large aren’t shame worthy. You’re not killing anybody, you’re not even in a shit relationship with someone else. If anything, you are doing so much shaming that it’s out of habit and more like faux shame.
If I was going to pick any one thing out of everything that you’ve said where you should feel embarrassment and apply it to your future actions, it’s that you slag off each party to the other party. Now if you want to feel ashamed about that then knock yourself out, otherwise it would be better to take your drama meter down from a 10 to about a 3, and adapt your behaviour. There’s no point in shaming or griping about something and then continuing to do it.
You choose to veer between anger and shame and ruminating about your life so the alarm is really that you’re in a poor relationship with *you*. You don’t let a good feeling percolate – you feel good for a few hours, a day, maybe sound inspirational and hitting it out of the ball park and then you kill it. That’s one hell of a rollercoaster you’re on. You make an active choice to find shame in things and to get frustrated and angry – you are a perfectionist. It’s like you want the world and you to be perfect before you’ll say that you’re happy and then no doubt five minutes afterwards, you’d pick fault.
You need to slow your roll and reduce the drama in your own mind. You decided to be a writer. You decided to do a Ph.D. Stop knocking it. Embrace it. Get on with it. Stop expecting to be applauded for doing what you’re supposed to do and what you’ve *chosen* to do. It’s you who feels ashamed about what you do – nobody else. It’s you that feels ashamed about you – you should be proud of who you are *including* your struggles and how you have fought to exceed even your *own* expectations. You have triumphed. You will continue to triumph. But stop the fricking drama and even more importantly, stop undermining yourself. Let Magnolia be. Just like the person who never makes decisions never gets to truly experience the power of their own judgement, neither does the person who is never truly herself for longer than a few hours before she’s peeing on her own parade.
Oh and I should add – often my brother and mother make the type of comments or give the types of looks like your sister. Bothered-o-clock! My days of being upset over that shite are over. My bro asked if I’ll still be saying I have post c-section tummy when the kids are in university. My mother makes comments about the kids being in childcare, the house, work, wedding dress, old boyfriends – some people just like having shit to say. It’s not exclusive to me but I also no longer see myself as inadequate or under attack plus I reserve the right to respond. Oh and I reserve the right to accept the gifts – take the coat (make sure you choose the one you want) or wear yours with pride.
Mag,
I get you. In order to survive contact with my Mother, prolonged contact of more than an hour…I do behave in certain ways.I know she does not see me as I really am, she does not know who I am, doesn’t want to. I understood that, even as a child. The dynamic, all my family dynamics are complex,some very dysfunctional,some through time,have proven rewarding. My sister now resonates! Her humour, her earthiness!
So, for example during the holidays,I kind of succumb, give them what they want.
They see me as academic,used to be successful(my Mum equates successful as married? I have been out of marriage for 11 years!),she sees me as slim,neurotic(I’m not really… she is,she has to see me like her?) My family see me as the representation/distillation of some fey,celtic,flawed,Scottish/Irish dynasty. I see both its hokum and its strengths. I see myself as it’s evolution, and my son, he can decide for himself. I think I manage this quite well. I do regular phone calls. I turn up, usually once a week. I am dutiful, sometimes I am engaged and happy, sometimes I feel like a fraud looking in on a stage set. But I do it. I do it because of my occasional blinding lightning love of my mother…cos I got in my thirties ‘why’ she drank.. I do it to assuage guilt(she is in kidney shutdown) and because I want to help, with cleaning,with conversation and because sometimes I see how lonely they are. Despite parties.
Mag, I am an academic, too. I have worked in education and in contracts to do with educ/learning. I have written.I have deadlines.One thing this gives you as a prize/curse is the ability to analyse the fatty coating off of an angel on horseback!!! You know it… Having your head down on a ph.d, means that you will notice mildew on the furthest corner of the bathroom ceiling.It’s mildew Mag, let it grow… Stop taking away from what you are and get behind the beauty of what you are. It is going to be truly wonderful. I can feel it.L
@ Lynda – “One thing this gives you as a prize/curse is the ability to analyse the fatty coating off of an angel on horseback”! omg, hilarious! Yep, a double-edged sword indeed.
@ NML: Thanks for the considered feedback – I am hearing you that the ups and downs are like a rollercoaster. I have been awakened to the cycle of up and down in my posts through the process of having posted and seeing your responses, and appreciate that BR has been available to me long enough to make my patterns visible to me and to you. That’s in part why I led off with saying that I am feeling generally good, so I’m not sure if you missed that or if for you it is beside the point.
A few years before BR, my days would inevitably range from lows of weeping uncontrollably to highs of stalwart determination to make it through life without crying, and spikes of good feeling and approval when I would do well at school or get my name in print. Now that the lows are anxious worry and the highs are feelings of optimism and relative peace, I feel like I have made progress. It is something to hear that to you the drama meter is still up at 10. Drag!
I like the idea that the ‘real me’ is the one who feels confident and optimistic, and that the doubt is habit and drama. The real me? Really? The doubt and shame, though less frequent, are still the more familiar place. Confidence feels like a high; a high tightrope from which I often fall off, but boy do I like it up there better!
“You don’t let a good feeling percolate – you feel good for a few hours, a day, maybe sound inspirational and hitting it out of the ball park and then you kill it. That’s one hell of a rollercoaster you’re on. You make an active choice to find shame in things and to get frustrated and angry – you are a perfectionist.”
Sounds like you’re saying I deliberately kill off the good feeling. I don’t know why I would do that; it doesn’t feel deliberate. I am encouraged to “feel my feelings,” no? Though I hesitate to accept that I’m just picking apart a good thing, I am tired of the rollercoaster.
Magnolia
I feel anxious today and I don’t know why. I used to feel like this nearly all the time (but worse). But I defy anyone to endure an english winter without feeling gloomy from time to time. I tell myself it’s natural and I’ll make myself a nice dinner tonight.
It’s okay; try not to tell yourself “OH NO the depression/anxiety/bad feeling is back for good”. It will probably be gone tomorrow. Emotions are like that, I guess that’s why we try to flatten them out.
Telling yourself you feel bad will make you feel bad. As I told my counsellor – if I think I’m all right, I AM all right. Feeling a bit down one day doesn’t mean you’re spiralling into depression, feeling happy doesn’t mean you’re fooling yourself. It’s all part of life and, as Scarlet said, tomorrow is another day.
Mag
I’m with Grace (my siamese twin?!!) on this too. try to avoid analyse everything you feel to the nth degree – we start to think there is something wrong with us when we are just being human – there is probably something wrong with all of us(!) – we all suffer from the human condition.
It’s odd you say this Grace, as I feel I’ve been having a bit of a setback this week – but it is that time of year when everything feels kind of stagnant (it has been pouring from the heavens here in the west of Scotland since before xmas and thought my roof was going to blow off in gales the night before last. I think my satellite dish has been blow off kilter cos there’s no tv signal and they can’t come and look at it until next Wednesday!! (argghh).
And I keep wishing i could talk to the ex EUM (Argghhh!). Not about to break NC or anything – just wishing and wanting and… wishing I could see him again in the way of the ‘good times’. Thanks to Nat and BR – I’m not in any real danger. I know the reality and I know what he is and I know I do not want any more part in it all. Oh dear. Time to get up and get busy with life again. These feelings do not last – they pass – if you just let them.
@Natalie: “Stop expecting to be applauded for doing what you’re supposed to do and what you’ve *chosen* to do.”
This sentence has hit home for me too. Personally, I’ve chosen a career path somewhere between creative freedom and true affluence, because that’s exactly what I wanted.
Anyway, I still believe I need to justify this. On the one hand, I’m afraid the truly creative people sneer at my “materialism”. On the other hand, I believe the truly wealthy laugh at my unremarkable lifestyle.
I used to wonder: Have I done something wrong? But what I did was exactly what I wanted! I wouldn’t have wanted to chose a different path!
But then why can’t I get any approval from other people? Why oh why? What’s wrong with me? Why can’t I do anything right?
Truth be told, even this is assessment was wrong. because many people praise my achievements and my choices. Somehow I just used to focus on the few who don’t.
I think this behavior of mine results from growing up with a narcissistic mother. The answer to all this is basically very simple: I’m responsible for my life, and this is all that matters, not what other people think or say.
i think it’s helpful to remind yourself when you feel their loss …
that do you want to sit there mega sad because it’s been a whole frickin’ week and he still hasn’t “texted” …
do you want to sit there and it’s friday night and no messages from him? what the hell is he doing anyway?
do you want to hear about a party he went to and wonder why the heck you were not invited?
and the any number of insensitive maneuvers that these guys pull …
being shitt* on valentines day and sending just a text, the icky feeling of them not really wanting you around and all of that veiled rejection.
i would rather not. awful. just awful.
Hi Runnergirl,
Thank you for your comments earlier! I could easily have chosen your name as I run a lot, one of my hobbies, and I said on a couple of ocassions to my ex-MM when he moved the goal post (i.e. leaving date) that I am putting on my training shoes (metaphorically) and I’m going to run away from you and this. His reply “if you run I’ll chase after you”. Funny that never happened in the end!
At the very start when we got together I told his specifically that will not harp on and ask “when are you leaving” but you have a limited time and after that I walk. After the first deadline came and went my shame alarm did ring a little, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt and he thanked me for being so patient and promised he wouldn’t keep me waiting much longer. He made sure there was no family holiday, he traded down his car so (in his words) he’d be in a better position financially as he’d need to support his soon to be ex and child, whilst getting a place with me. We talked about where we’d live, we had a list of things we planned to do in life as we had a very similar outlook. It is gut wrenching to think that we had so many of these conversations and on the day I ended it (the first time – shame on me!) the conversation took all of 10 mins as he was desperate to get away and I could tell he didn’t want to discuss it. His excuse later was because he was hurting and he couldn’t face hearing me say it was over. He would raise this often afterwards, how hurt he was that I’d given up on us! Shame on him, how dare he turn that around on me and almost lay some blame at my door for deciding enough was enough. I did give up, his inaction was the end of us! As I put it to him, had he really been that devastated he’d have begged me not to end it, or very soon after made the move.
It actually had me thinking for a while, oh no I blew it, maybe I should’ve waited longer and now he’ll think I didn’t support him enough and that I wasn’t really serious enough! No way, he had ample opportunities and as I said to him at the very start, I will walk if you don’t do it. Ok, I walked and then walked back temporarily but at least I’ve done it now.
What I have to say that I feel some shame for, is that when I finally broke our ‘situation’ off (I actually only saw him 3 times in 3 months) I spilled my heart to him, maybe too…
Angela —
That is a particularly cruel manipulation. Making *you* feel that everything you wanted and waited for was *just about* to be yours — if only you had shown a little more faith.
“You gave up on us” is his subtext.
If you buy it, on any level, a) you might come back for more of the same, which suits him; and b) he has sold you both a narrative where *he* is the good guy.
Bottom line is you’re not allowed to have any boundaries. You set a boundary and he says “I was just about to fulfill your fairy tale but you ruined everything with your doubt and drama.”
It’s effing evil. It’ll make you crazy and have you equating “acting in my own best interests” with “losing the best thing that was just about to happen to me.” That equation is toxic.
Angela,
He did not, even in his peripheral vision clock your boundaries. But, good on you, you stated them.
I feel your pain at the plans, the house, etc. They say this, whether married or not. Its future faking.
You say’ Inaction’ stick with this. His renegading cannot be put on you. Do not accept this transference/manipulation.
You sussed it. Keep on.
Ixnay. i couldn’t agree more. *Married* is a big fat deal breaker in flashing neon lights. Angela, you should have told him to eff off with his mind effery.
ixnay, thank you, I needed that today. This part of the mind-eff i’ve been going through to get over this poor excuse for a human being has been one of the most difficult. I already have boundary issues, and he used that to his advantage, and certainly when I tried to put some up, it came down to him telling me, “if only you would have done this, we could have been that. But you left…” The final caught in the act, he said to me, “I just wish you would have given me the money I needed.” I said, “I wish I had been better to myself, and walked away from this a long time ago.” Everything, from his financial woes not being solved the half dozen women that he cheated on me with was “my doing.” If only I would have given him money…if only I would have allowed him to push the reset button, which he tried to do several times. It’s maddening, and it’s cruel. I did get to the point of moving in with this evil manipulating lying user, and when I decided to move after catching him cheating, he did the crocodile tears act and begged me not to leave. That was only when I told him I had contacted my apartment manager and asked if I could continue my lease after all. He acted all loving and sweet, saying he would support me whatever decision I made. But, when I called him the day I signed the lease to move back in, his response, “thanks, I wouldn’t have moved into this house I can’t afford on my own if it weren’t for you, so thanks a lot. I would have gotten a cheap apartment I can afford on my own.” Such a lie. I offered when his home was foreclosed on for him to come stay with me for as long as he needed, but he was all about image, and, yeah he couldn’t have women over behind my back at my apt. I guess, but honestly, wouldn’t put it past this guy now. I have battled that part of me that DOES say, oh if only you would have put up with more, waited it out, been better in some way. Turns out I was nothing more to him than a free ride, a roommate with benefits and at the first opportunity he presented “our” house to other women as just his.
I really need to vent some anger today. Just about a month NC and I know I’m doing better, but damn if reality doesn’t sting. Natalie says it, you gain objectivity. It hurts like nothing else, but I’m working through it, sometimes it takes so much energy to literally force the thoughts of his cruelty to STOP and get OUT of my head.
Hi Angela,
You hit the nail on the head as to why I chose “runnergirl”. I am a runner and clearly needed to run. We need to listen to that inner voice that says “RUN”. Like you, my shame alarm bell finally rang loud enough for even my deaf ears when he shifted the goal post last December. It had always been when the youngest kid left for college, which was rapidly approaching. Suddenly, it was “I can’t do it this year” (i.e. 2011-2012). Alarm, alarm, RUN, finally.
You sound strong and committed. That’s excellent. MM’s have this odd way of making it sound like it is the OW’s fault when they are called on their shit for having their cake and eating it too. How hurt he was when you decided that you deserved better than being an option…puleeeze. I got the same shit. Somehow once I decided I could no longer put up with the indignity and shame of being the OW, it was my fault. But it was my fault, not in the way he meant it. As long as MM’s have OW’s to cater to their ego’s and other things, why not? It’s up to the Other Woman to RUN. Stay NC. Cheating, lying, deceptive MM’s are a dime a dozen. My first question out of the gate is: Are you married or otherwise attached (at 52 that is a totally logical question). If there is even a drop of hesitation, I RUN. Listen to the runnergirl inside of you.
I don’t think I will ever put up with a man who consistently puts himself before me again. Not that I am expecting a man to treat me like the Queen of Sheeba, rubbing my feet in expensive oils day-in,day-out..feeding me grapes etc. etc. no. I would consider myself a relatively undemanding girlfriend.
The last guy, well…everything was on his terms pretty much. I can’t recall many instances where I felt he made a sacrifice for me. I felt like an accessory almost of his just there to serve whatever purpose (smokescreen perhaps, many people suspect he’s gay)..an object without needs, wants and desires of her own…I felt like ‘Mr. AC’s girlfriend’ not Violet.
The Hell to the Effin no dealbreaker, the last straw, was when he made a major decision concerning me and our relationship without really consulting me about it, telling me about it via lazy communication means when he had the opportunity to tell me in person or even lift up the phone. NO WAY. Nah-uh. Lazy, disrespectful and cowardly.
I snapped and was like ‘f**k this controlling, selfish, inconsiderate wanker’..and as much as it broke my heart (still does when I think about it long enough) I walked away with at least some remaining dignity intact.
In the spirit of New Years Eve I will share with you what I have learnt this year about relationships:
Never and I repeat never allow someone to bust up your boundaries and intrude on what makes you, you. Respectful people, the people I, we or anyone should be associating with would not even dream off violating them in the first place.
Happy New Years all!
Thank you for your reply Natalie. I’m not sure that I follow what you said though.
How would you distinguish between someone who thinks that they love someone and that person actually loving someone? I’m thinking of myself of course and my ex who I would say that I loved. If you had met me six months ago would you have told me that I didn’t love him? I would have argued with you if you had. But you are obviously wiser than I am so now I doubt myself and don’t know what to think about this.
You say that love is action not just feeling and I agree of course. But still if you ask most people, myself included, if they act in loving ways towards their partner they will say yes.
But with him I did re-enact an old pattern.
For most people that I know the first thing that they will say as to why they stay/stayed in an unhappy relationship is because they love the person. But how are we to know when we really love someone and don’t just think that we love them?
Thanks again.
Intotouch
I did love my ex. But it’s not love that made me stay – it was fear of the pain of rejection. I know I did love him because, years later, I wish him well and harbour no bad feeling towards him at all.
Whether you love him or think you love him is not entirely separate but separate enough for you to know the difference when some water has passed under the bridge. Time will tell you. You don’t have to analyse, think, question, worry about it. It will be revealed naturally. Just take care of yourself.
If you’ve had to NC him, it’s because regardless of how much you love him (or even think you love him), you know it isn’t going to work and it hurts too much.
As Nat says, if it comes down to choosing to love him and choosing to love yourself, choose yourself. And one day, you may very well meet someone where you can love him AND yourself. And you’ll never have to ask yourself “do I really love him or do I just THINK I love him?” because you’ll be enjoying your life together and the question will be completely redundant.
I bumped into the Assclown tonight with their new partner! Dead silence as we passed each other in the nightclub.
Then I had a panic attack… but in the morning I didn’t feel shame, but pride. Pride that I had got this far. I had closure, my no contact had been tested and I knew from that moment the No Contact had paid off.
Good for you, Tired! I, too, had a close encounter with the exMM kind about a month ago. Suddenly, he was standing in front of me while I walked with my little boy and our dog to get lunch. He wouldn’t even meet my eyes. Here was the coward and user who brought me to my knees with his cruelty, looking scared and intimidated.
I’m sorry about your panic attack, but I’m glad you felt proud – you earned it. I know exactly how you feel.
I want to thank all the wonderful ladies here for your answers to my problem. Of course you’re right, girls. NC does take a lot of work and it is a necessary process to finally find the light at the end of the tunnel. Even though I still don’t understand how someone (even my ex EUM that we were 2 years together) won’t even text back a “Merry Christmas” message to someone that shared so many feelings with not long ago. What’s so damn hard to send a happy new year??? To send a wish? To be polite and kind to someone that onve loved and cared for. We were so close for so long. I’m so disappointed. I can’t put up with his disappearances and up’s and down’s. He cut all contact without even telling me so. I tried to make him tell me that we’re over and he just disappeared. I suspect there is another woman. Oh God, what am I telling?? I must go on with my life. I MUST, I MUST, I MUST.
Alice, what you are feeling is normal and I want to give you a big “YEAH GIRL!” for being so determined to leave this relationship in the past. Here’s an article of Nat’s that I think you’ll find really helpful. Happy New Year!
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/dont-they-care-about-me-didnt-i-mean-something-to-them/
Alice
It’s only a text. If he texted you, you’d be thinking “is that the best he can do?”. He doesn’t have the answer. You do, absolutely!
Alice
I agree with Grace. We don’t want a polite “happy xmas to you too” text back. We are fishing for more and he knows this, so he gives us nothing in order to avoid being dragged into having to deal with what will follow: “Is one crumby happy xmas text the best you can do, you asshole?/where are you?/why are you ignoring me?/why have you disappeared and not ended this properly, you coward?/how can you treat me like this?…etc.
And, we know that if we had any self-respect left we would not be texting the guy who disappeared on us, treated us like crap and is ignoring us a text message wishing him a ‘merry xmas’! And he knows this too, make no mistake!
Alice – Don’t text these (at best ill-mannered) men your ‘good wishes’ when you can’t and/or don’t mean it, when you are actually very disappointed in him and hurt and disgusted with the way he has behaved. You sent him a text – it’s just a text; It’s the lazy way for you to try to get a reaction or attention out of him (I know, I did all this – many times). And I see now that if I really meant business i would have picked up a phone or turned up at his door, anything but a text message. It’s just a text. It’s not effort. It’s lack of effort. And if he sent you one back – it too would be just a text. As Nat says, I know people who put more effort into ordering a pizza.
Happy New Year everyone! This is my first post. I’ve been following BR for about a week and I want to thank Natalie and all you readers for helping me survive the last week with my dignity (and sanity) intact. My ex-AC (formerly fiancee) told me on Christmas Day that he needs time to “rest” (back strain at work) and he “doesn’t want to talk right now.” WTF? I responded that I wouldn’t bother him again – and I haven’t! NC for 8 days now. I thought I’d die the first 48 hours but every day and hour are easier and easier. What an ass he is and what the hell was I thinking?
Blessings to all of you. My resolution is that 2012 will be the year that I fall in love with a REAL man!
Magnolia–
From another grad-school educated, slim, cute, well-born girl from a great family who men claimed they were always “too afraid of to ask out for fear of rejection” [(EU?) (Idiots?) (Cowards?) (All of above?)]:
1. you overanalyze things. I did it, too. STOP ALREADY!
2. you have choices in life: choose to be happy!
3. As the Nike ad says, JUST DO IT. Whatever it is!
And the only way to deal with an AC, shame or no-shame being involved, is to CUT THEM OFF AT THE FIRST SIGN OF B.S./DISINTEREST/AMBIGUOUS & QUESTIONABLE BEHAVIOR. They don’t come back, fine! They do, then its’ on YOUR terms…spell them out!
I damn well came back to who I was from 1 day old to 20 years old. I lost myself for 20 years! Me, who knew myself so well and was famous for not being messed with. Why did I change? B/C I started to worry more about not being perceived as a snob (which “friends” convinced my with their actions that I “had” to do!) and about what others thought.
Shame is good for criminals, sex addicts, assholes, ACs, etc. etc. NOT FOR YOU OR FOR ME OR FOR ANYONE ELSE WHO WRITES IN!
EllyB, Used – thanks for these responses. I’m grateful for a new set of caring folks to let me know when I’m overanalyzing or making too much of a situation. I don’t trust anyone else to say so, really. I’ve heard it from family. I don’t take it well from them.
Even just last night an interaction with someone, just before bed, turned my calm sleepiness into two hours of fretful, sleepless feelings of being hurt, trying to figure out how to respond to the ‘insult’, worrying whether I was letting someone walk on me, etc. Once I made the decision that not letting it get to me, and deciding that I could choose not to confront, and that doing so was not the same as allowing someone to walk on me, I was able to sleep.
I do wish I felt confident about the difference between letting a small thing go in a way that supports me and minimizing others’ BS behaviour in a way that detracts from me.
May 2012 be my (and anyone else’s, who ruminates as much I have) year of learning what is and what isn’t worth worrying about.
This article struck a cord, but the pill is still hard to swallow. I have decided to write on here because I would appreciate any perspective/ideas since I haven’t been able to speak to many people about this. I am presently stuck in a difficult situation with my husband, to whom I have been married a little over half a year. We started off with a long distance marriage because he is in the military and is completing his duty in a foreign country (not in one of the war countries) for another year. We both agreed that I would stay here to get things ready and we would both be ok with a long distance marriage. However, we planned that I would go spend new years with him, which we were both looking forward to. In the past few months I have had trust issues because of his omission to tell me simple things about things that are going on, even though they might have been completely innocent. One day, I exploded and called him a liar and mentioned I thought he was cheating and hung up. I regretted what I said after and when I called to apologize he completely shut down and said he did not want to talk to me until he was ready because I didn’t trust him and always thought he ways lying and had reached his breaking point. I tried calling a few times in the next two weeks (very calmly trying to apologize), but was met with shut down and “I dont want to talk” every time. It has been about a month since we had a real conversation and in between that time he only sent me an email to tell me that his leave was no longer approved for my planned trip and that I should not go visit because he didn’t want to end up being an asshole to me the whole time. He called me once the day before X-mas because one of his friends added me on facebook and he was angry about that, and just said spend a good holiday with your family, and said he would call me later. He did not call on X-mas or New years, and I still have not heard from him. I know that no one deserves this type of treatment, and that if he really cared he would initiate some type of contact. I never imagined myself being a person who would bend this much for someone, but I feel that because we made a commitment and because I do love him deep down I would like to work things out, or at least be able to talk like adults about our differences and end things in a civil way. I am lost on what to do and where to go from…
This is a very awkward situation to be in – I don’t mean him being away but the whole trust issues and then shutting down for a few weeks. A good friend of mine is married to a guy in the navy. He’s away for weeks or months at a time and they have 2 year old. It’s not easy but it is doable. Your relationship needs to have a foundation of mutual love, care, trust, and respect and you each need to have clear lines of communication and empathy – neither of you seem to understand or respect one anothers position and in spite of being married *and* having to be apart, there doesn’t seem to be any clear steps to conflict resolution. The truth is, if I was in the army, away from everything that I love and probably feeling shitty about it but also trying to be dedicated to my job, I’d be deeply offended and hurt if my wife said I was cheating and called me a liar. The difficulty is if you’re having a pop about what you claim are innocent things, it sounds like there is an expectation of telling everything. Unfortunately when things are ‘innocent’, they may also fall lower down the rung of unimportance. That said, him closing down and shutting you out with barely basic contact during this time is just as inappropriate. It may be that he’s childish but it’s probably that he doesn’t know how to begin to resolve the conflict – trust issues leave a bad taste and unfortunately can’t always be swept away with an apology. That said, he will cause more damage by not discussing and starting to resolve now and instead, leaving it until he’s back. While it is difficult to hear that you’re not trusted, if he put himself in your shoes for a moment, he might see someone vulnerable, feeling inadvertently neglected and unsure of herself that lashed out. His actions are thoughtless and uncaring…and punishing. That said, I also don’t for some reason feel that you’re entirely ‘invested’ in this marriage – I get the sense that you made a deal but want to back out. Saying that you love him “deep down”, sounds like closer to the surface you’re ambivalent. Suggesting you should talk like adults and end it in a civil way is also hasty. It’s difficult to gauge from a comment the entirety of what is going on here, but if there is going to be any resolving, you both have to face that trust issues make for a weak relationship – you both need to sit down, with a professional who can get to the heart of what is going on here – someone doesn’t say “breaking point” for something that has happened once. The truth is, neither of you deserve to be treated in the manner in which you have each chosen to treat one another. You have both disrespected one another. If he isn’t taking your calls, send him an email, that’s calm but firm, asking to arrange a time to speak and to also confirm what date he will have leave/be home next. It doesn’t matter who initiates contact – you’re married and this has got too out of hand already.
I STILL don’t know my limit. I was NC and I broke. BTW, at this point I was no longer allowed to text even, I had been downgraded to contacting him through Words With Friends. LOL. It seems hilarious now that I think about it but I had a huge blow out last night basically “texting” him through words with friends that I’m not wasting my time on people who don’t value my time or me and I asked him what he expected, me to contact him through words with friends since I was no longer even allowed to text him (his wife found a text from me on his phone and blew up). He actually thought I was going to be downgraded from crumbs to rat sh%t and think it was great. Oh he was still future faking at this point to about the great spring trip we were going to take. Yeah right.
So I kind of lost it last night and “texted” him through words with friends. After a couple two sentence responses, I REALLY lost it and he didn’t respond and then today he says HE’S DONE WITH ME because of how much I “texted” him and I know how he hates that. So he completely ignores that I said I was done and that I only wish he could have cared (don’t know why I beat that dead horse over and over and over again… yep, it’s still dead) and that if I’m not careful, I’m going to have a VERY BAD YEAR. I don’t know what that means, but now he’s “punishing” me by ignoring me, he “resigned” the game so I won’t contact him again through that way (I guess in his mind), and I’m sure he thinks he’s the one that’s ended it with me.
These guys have NO EMPATHY whatsoever and will treat you like less than crap if you allow it. He says he will still say “hi” to me at work but that’s IT! LOL. He doesn’t get it. I expressly said I was DONE and he can’t even respect what I say (through words with friends no less, I wonder why he can’t respect that, lol). He thinks when I say I’m done he can just ignore it and flit through my life and that pissed me off so I did go off and try to get the point across that I was worth. All I did was devalue myself MORE.
The moral of the story is what Nat has been saying all along: No Contact all the way. There is NO POINT in trying to get them to ever respect you or even see the truth. My shame alarm should have stopped me from contacting him. It was ringing, I just wasn’t listening. Now I look like a fool and have to start over again and…
Limerance,
I can feel your frustration. I used to feel like that at least once a month with the ex EUM (who’s not married but may as well be – to himself! They all work the same way). I am confused about this Words With Friends – is this contact through actually friends or some internet social network site that I’ve never heard of?
You seem confused too.I have said before on BR that I believe it gets to the stage with these MMs that they just keep you hanging on enough – with crumbs and a smattering of empty promises – as insurance against the OW not creating merry havoc in his (real) life with his wife. Once the wife knows about the affair he doesn’t need to bother his arse appeasing the OW anymore – he may try to marginalise you further into no-man’s land where you learn to ‘respect’ his position, to expect absolutely nothing from him and where you know your corner and stay in it until you are explicitly called for.
It doesn’t matter who finished it, really, so long as it’s finished for you. And it HAS to be finished for you. This is the typical MM/OW story. All it brings is pain. It’s a fool’s errand from beginning to end. There are no winners but there’s always one big loser, and I’m afraid that is always the OW. His life carries on – he had someone when he met you and he has that same someone after he’s done with you. All you get is to lick your (self-inflicted) wounds and to howl at the moon for as long as it takes for you realise that is all you are doing. That’s the story.
The deal breaker is NOT that he reduced you to texts, then reduced you to ‘words with friends’, fed you empty promises, neglected your needs… or all the rest of the crap (we all know what it is) – the deal breaker is that he is *MARRIED*. When we ignore that we have turned off all shame alarms and all bets are *off* – we have no right to expect anything and the rest of the misery follows as naturally as day follows night. It’s all so insufferably predictable. When we decide to take up position as OW (or FBG/FWB to some ill-disguised EUM or AC) we become the authors of our own downfall – it’s sheer masochism – it is already written and it will not play out any other way. Let him go to hell by his own hand. Am sorry you are in this awful position but now you must now howl at the moon for as long as it takes – but let him go. Let it be over.
Lim
It’s good that you’re flushing this guy but he’d not done with you because you texted, he’s done with you because he’s married and he can no longer juggle the two of you. It was always on the cards unless you’re Angeline Jolie, and she’s got form .
Many OWs (including myself) have gone through the “I should have done this, that or the other” and miss the topline info that he’s married.
Yes, start over, in the full knowledge that no text, letter, email, dinner, walk, bbq, texts, talk, more talk, arguments, making up, chemistry, charm, long chats, “friendship”, sex will make him unmarried.
He can’t end it with you. It never started.
Grace:
“no text, letter, email, dinner, walk, bbq, texts, talk, more talk, arguments, making up, chemistry, charm, long chats, “friendship”, sex will make him unmarried.”
Exactly!
Har har. I was today vaguely thinking of “maybe we can be friends” after 3 1/2 weeks NC with the MM – but those comments made me realise how ridiculous.. and laugh. Friends indeedy. I don’t think so.
Limerence, I would also say, I ended it with the MM and went NC but truly it was because I knew full well how little he thought of me, so it really doesn’t make the slightest difference who ended it. At times I shudder to think .. this and that… don’t bother feeling enbarrassed about the particular details. I too have shameful memories. Whatever. Don’t worry, just get on with your life and try to enjoy it.
Hi Limerance
I’m sorry you are in this situation. Based on my recent former shameful OW experience, everything Grace and Fearless have said is absolutely spot on. It’s a typical MM/OW moment when the OW steps outside her place and the MM panics because he realizes he can no longer have his cake and eat it too. It’s not about texting. It is because he is married to another woman, not you. Imagine what the betrayed wife feels when she discovers her husband’s secret life. A lying, cheating MM leaves a path of victims and destruction from the betrayed wife and children as well as the OW. I had to change the batteries in my shame alarms and become accountable for my life. NO MM’s or otherwise attached persons. It’s too humiliating. My best to you in staying NC. I’ve been in your shoes and I know it hurts but you can do it. There’s no choice.
First of all, hugs BR ladies! Ok, still in shock that I was stupid enough to get involved with such a messed up, emotionally detached man. I fell for the sweet, caring side of him that popped up in turns & ignored or made excuses for the bad behavior, ex. the long silences when I asked for more quality time, asked how he felt about me, etc. After awhile after still not answering those questions he would pick up where we left off like nothing had happened. I’m not sure he has a heart or a conscience. He must have little respect for me. He took the piss for over a year. Overall he treated me like a doll, & I let him. Let him mess with my emotions & put me back on a shelf, repeat. It has taken a toll on my emotional, mental, & physical health. I see that now. I never had been so open with any guy about my feelings or dared ask such things before. I’m embarrassed for how I’ve acted & what I’ve accepted. I hate that I’ve invested in & cared for him so much.
It is/has been an addiction for over a year which is hard letting go of, especially b/c we work at the same place. My brain says/knows it’s unhealthy for me to be in any sort of relationship with him, the heart is “slow” so there is some resistance/pain. I have resolved not to answer any more texts, calls or emails from him, & no longer talk with him other than a brief hi when I see him about the common areas, but there are memories that pop up. The good memories, the brief, sweet moments we shared. The tasty “crumbs” that left me sick & hungry for a loaf. Some days are better than others. One day one of us will be working in a different department. My goal is to heal asap. I’m reminding myself that I deserve better. I’ve chosen to forgive but have reached my “shame limit” & chosen to drop my depressing “friend.” I keep telling myself that I’m fine. One day I truly will be. I know things will get better, they are getting better day by day. It’s good to hear it from others. Any words of encouragement are welcome.
I work with the MM AC I was involved with. A little more complicated than your situation, but I share and empathize with the pain you feel anyway.
I’d cut out even saying hi. Yesterday was the first true day I had of NC. I’d gone NC with him late December, but I’d still check out social sites of his, etc. thinking there was no harm in that, or that I could wean myself off of it just like I had talking to him. NOPE. It just keeps me hooked into a bad situation.
I haven’t been to work since the last blow out (described above) when I broke NC because of how ashamed I feel and how much I’m hurting, but I realize it’s not because of losing him. It’s because of losing myself. I’m going to work today and I’m NOT going to say hi, I’m not going to interact with him, and I’m NOT going to common areas where I might see him. I think you should start new patterns too, at least for a while, until you heal more and forgo any polite “hi” for awhile.
I feel like its an addiction too (thus my username). But believe me, this was my second go around with the guy after three months of NC, and it doesn’t get better. It just gets WORSE the more you go back, the more you break your NC. I love my job but I’ve seriously thought about quitting. I may go in today and ask for a week off because of how bad this has affected me.
Stay strong with NC. I’m set back to this being my second day but I’m PROUD of yesterday and I’ll be proud of today when I go to work and do my job and not think about AC who used me and abused me and who only think of themselves. Good luck.
Limerence, as someone who had to go NC with my ex (he had a girlfriend so was attached), when he worked a couple of desks away from me and was best mates with my best mate, even though it’s not what you want to hear, the best thing you can do is go to work. All that not going to work is going to do is delay the inevitable. It is horrible and I say this as someone who probably broke it off with this guy more than I had hot dinners over the space of 18 months. All that staying at home is going to do, is cause you to avoid the results of a poor relationship choice and the repercussions. You don’t want to deal with conflict and you don’t want to face this shame etc. Aside from the fact that taking time off work is actually only going to hinder your work prospects, not help it, the best way you can fight the shame is to *stop* losing yourself. Get in the shower, get dressed, pull up your proverbial boot straps and go to work and do the job you’re paid to do. It actually became a challenge to me to *excel* or at the very least perform as normal, because I would have felt a deeper sense of shame than I already felt, if I pissed away my credibility, a job that I sort of loved, and in essence my life, because I was too proud to admit that I fucked up and deal with it. I’ve seen people return to work after losing people to death or experiencing major traumas such as rape, miscarriage, end of marriage etc. If they can, so can you. That’s not to take away from anything you’re feeling – hurt is hurt – but this isn’t worth losing your job over, and if it is, leave now and go and get a new job.
Whether you stay in this job or go to another one, you still need to deal with this situation.
Yeah you could come back when you feel ‘up to it’ but actually, you’ve got to start somewhere and learning to acclimatise to life *without* them involves getting on and living your life without them. It’s going to take more than a week off work to rid yourself of everything to do with this man – the same amount of energy you put into keeping an affair a secret and having to put on a brave face, is the same amount of energy you can use for going NC. I say this to you from experience – it’s time to start taking you and your own life seriously and stop giving this man so much power. It’ll hurt, but that’s a given.
“It should definitely be ringing when you feel the sting of embarrassment and humiliation.”
Ugh, my shame bell is ringing like Quasimodo this morning. While leaving the karaoke bar last night, I left a brief, friendly note with my phone number on the windshield of this guy’s car I’ve been interested in getting to know better. In hellbent attention-seeking mode, I was frustrated that he’s not making any moves. In the light of day, I feel so foolish! I go there every week to sing; he’s a regular there as well. How do I face this guy?
Blueberry,
with any luck it blew away before he got to the car! Or he may not have noticed it, switched on his wipers, the note flew away and is now at the bottom of a puddle in the car park, sodden and illegible. You can always hope! But I would suggest asking him instantly as soon as you see him again if he got a note you left on his car. Don’t apologise, don’t claim drunkeness, just say ‘that’s okay, was just wondering if you’d like to go out sometime but no worries if not – have a good night’. Then walk away and don’t chase him up again. Always best to meet these things head on I think – with no bullshitting.
@ Fearless, thanks for responding to my somewhat silly and juvenile post. (And, of course, he hasn’t called…ugh)
So I should leave my wig and mustache at home? I am so bad at facing embarrassment; right now, I just want to sprint from the scene of the crime. If it wasn’t one of my fav karaoke bars, I would be finding excuses not to go back, but I love it there. Here’s the million dollar question, Fearless: why do I feel so mortified about revealing my interest? Isn’t that what you’re supposed to do to open yourself up to relationships? Fear has derailed me more times than I care to count.
Blueberry,
Your post isn’t juvenile or silly. I may be totally off but you expressed interest in someone via a note. He didn’t respond. That’s okay. No shame bells are necessary in my mind. Your aren’t stalking, texting or doing anything like that, right? Just be conscious of the hellbent conscious seeking mode. I’m guessing, based on being in the same circumstance once, that it may not be a fear of revealing your interest rather a fear of that interest not being reciprocated. As Natalie has said in previous posts not everybody is everybody’s cup of tea. I’ve only gone out a limb once and expressed my interest in a male colleague via email. He didn’t respond and I had to see him at work events and meetings. It was somehow okay. He wasn’t interested. I’m grateful now he didn’t string me along and be an EUM trying to get free cake. It’s your fav place and he may not be interested. That’s okay. Others will be. Our job is to sort out the interested, honest, authentic males from the EUM’s. I’d say, Karaoke on.
Unfortunately, I believe I already had my answer, runner girl, prior to the note-leaving. Signs of disinterest were there but I had to push for a concrete answer. Grant me the serenity to accept what’s in front of me and the wisdom to stop trying to change it to the outcome of my choice!
Blueberry
I guess it has something to do with our (socially constructed) gender roles – men are supposed to do the asking. But none of us need to buy into that, really, do we? And btw, it’s a leap year, so your entitled to make the first move! I think most men feel the pressure of their role as ‘pursuer’. My brother often says how girls have it easy; they just sit back and the guy has to put his proverbial neck on the line to ask girls out – and all how hard, frightening and demoralising that can be. For what isn’t worth coming from Miss No Clue How To Date here, I think the embarrassment lies more in your method than your asking!! Lol. How impressed would you be with a note on your car from a guy who was in the same bar as you moments before? Just speak to him. It may not be nearly as bad as you think. I guess before we do these things – notes on cars – we should always consider how we mght feel about the worst case scenario and if that would make us want to die a thousand deaths, we should reconsider – speak to him. Feel the fear and do it anyway. Worst case scenario? He doesn’t take you up on anything but you at least back your action regarding the note and you get to show your face again! You like him, you wanted to do something about it, so big deal – guys do this stuff all the time and get nothing back. Poor souls. Good luck!
Yes, Fearless, not my slickest move! lol Thanks for making me laugh at myself and see it’s not such a big deal. Notes, no more!
how do i rebuild boundaries, i found out my husband was a crossdresser ten years ago, i accepted, then it transpired he frequents porn,dating sites, only to chat,he said, i said ok if that was all. it turns out he has seen an escort, i forgave, as he had only dressed for her, i said it hurt me, he promised no more lies,he asked if he could have photos taken at a tv escorts lace, i said ok. it turns out it was a sexual encounter. how do i put boundaries up,do i make ultimatums, i have made it clear he is risking our marriage. apart from this he has been good to me, though is i can see now, emotionally unavailable. i cannot financially support myself, i have four kids, three at home,two grow who cannot afford to live elsewhere, and one younger who needs stability – i am seeing now the extent of our toxic relationship through your blogs, yet i cannot face the shame of ending the marriage after 30yrs together, knowing how it will affect my family,as he is seen as a ‘Good one’ by everyone and i have no one to tell about all this. my father is terminally ill,and my mother showing signs of senility. the stress is beginning to overtake me –
Cherri, it’s up to you to set the standards for your marriage and right now, the bar is set very low at liar level. You keep thinking that you’re getting ‘all’ the lies but you’re with a drip feeder and a piss taker. This guy is more than a crossdresser – porn, escorts, dating sites, cheating. He thinks you’re ok with anything subsequent because you accepted a combination of things that other people wouldn’t have. Expecting him to see an escort and not to have sex, is like sticking a straw and some coke up his nose and expecting him not to snort.
It’s no reflection on you that he is doing these things in that, he’d be this way with or without you. But it is your desire to hold onto your marriage at all costs that reflects the fact that he has been able to continue.
30 years is a long time but it’s time you either accept that him and all his poking around in extra curricular sex activities is a part of the package, or let him go. It’s one or the other. This man isn’t changing. Ever. If anything, he will continue to push the boundaries.
Your situation with your parents and children is awkward but not unmanageable. He can still be a father and provide – you just don’t have to continue being married.
You can either live with this man and have him cross dressing, escorting etc or live without him and he’ll still do all of these things anyway – it just won’t be a problem under your roof. He has disrespected your vows with his infidelity and he is actually being abusive with the lies and cheating.
I know what my limit is – you have to decide yours. He is not supporting you emotionally so it’s not even like you have a strong friendship to work from. Write down what would have to happen to leave – it’s either going to be nothing or you’re waiting for something really humiliating and public. Don’t let it get that far.
thanks, i know i have issues, your logs have hit home. i am working through, and so many explain how i have massively cocked up my life tbh. i am finding so much strength as i read through, realising i am not as alone as i thought.