I get so many emails asking me about whether to date someone who is separated, recently divorced, or even fresh out of a breakup that I wanted to tackle this tricky subject. We’re often scared (even if nothing has actually happened yet with a particular person) that we may be letting our last chance or even best chance saloon slip away. We may be imagining all sorts of problems that may or may not exist or we’re rationalising our own boundaries, values, and even prior experiences of being in one of these situations (so knowing that we may struggle with the emotional consequences) and are thinking along the lines of, ‘Well… I’m of a certain age so I need to prepare myself for turning a blind eye to any code amber / red actions and indications because people in this age group tend to be recently broken up / separated / divorced‘. OK….
There’s no easy answer to the question of what the ‘right time’ is for dating a separated or recently divorced person. What you have to keep in mind is that separated is still married until the divorce is finalised and that means that there’s likely to be emotional as well as legal ties.
It would be handy if we could avoid the vulnerability that comes with doing the due diligence and taking appropriate action where needed. What we forget is that even if a person hasn’t just exited a relationship, aside from knowing our own boundaries (which can rule out certain things that we’ve already made a decision on in advance of), we cannot get all of the answers upfront or have someone tell us what ‘the ending’ will be.
Each situation is different but what you can say with a high degree of certainty is that someone who’s just fallen out of their marriage, who’s still in reconciliation negotiations, who’s still very influenced by their spouse, and who has been separated for a long time ‘just because’, is going to bring pain into your life. Same goes for someone who’s not over their divorce and has beliefs that affect their ability to be committed.
I personally know people who have gotten together while one party was separated, and in one case the wife refused to sign so they had to wait for it to lapse and got married as soon as it did a few years later, and in the other instances where it worked out, there was no faffing about with the divorce, Future Faking etc. In the situations where it didn’t work, the separated party overestimated their readiness and actually, part of the reason they dated had been to avoid their feelings about the demise of their marriage.
Avoid falling into the trap of not seeing the wood for the trees: There are people left brokenhearted due to being involved with partners who were still affected by a breakup or divorce that happened anything from months to decades before.
We can take the period of time since the breakup into account but we also need to note whether actions matching words are amounting to somebody who is available for a mutual, consistent, balanced (no pedestals / controlling), progressing relationship that can blossom into increasing intimacy and commitment. That’s what we need to look for. It’s very easy to look at a person’s age, background, what they earn, their relationship history, their appearance, their divorce, and whatever else we’re focusing on, and rule them in or out on this basis, but in the end, regardless of any of these things, we still have to assess our own boundaries and do the due diligence.
It’s not about judging a person for being separated or divorced – it’s about judging the overall situation and working out whether it fits with who we are and where we’re headed.
The experience over time that we spend with a person means that we get to see if actions and words match and whether what we thought or they suggested was on the cards is actually happening. Yes it’s a ‘risk’ but it’s little more risk than in any other dating situation. That said, keep in mind the following:
1. Don’t assume that because you’re being pursued or that there’s certain future talk that it ‘must’ mean that they’re over their ex and ready for a relationship.
2. Definitely don’t assume that because they’re separated or divorced that have a PhD in commitment or that you’ll get the same. All it means is that they’ve been married. And that it ended.
3. If you typically struggle with the uncertainty that comes with being with somebody who still has their previous relationship to resolve, or you know based on experience that you’ve had your fingers burned by being involved with separated or recently broken up people, don’t go there. A person cannot promise not to hurt you or that their marriage breaking up isn’t going to affect you hence if the possibility of either of these happening sends fear ripping through you, know your own boundaries instead of playing the breakup slot machine again.
4. ‘Recent’ is of course subjective but it’s safe to say that if you become involved with someone who is weeks or even days out of their prior relationship, you’re gonna get some blowback. You remember what it’s like in those first few days, weeks and even months depending on how long the relationship went on for – you may still have been in touch, arguing, negotiating, or even hooking up. Is this what you want to be in the middle of? You can of course chance your arm but then you have to back away when it becomes clear that the ex files haven’t been closed.
5. If you’ve already determined your boundary on this issue, don’t bust it, live it. I know of quite a few people who were told to wait and come back when they’d had some more time/got divorced. Now of course, a person who is avoiding their feelings will just find someone else to avoid them with but somebody who is genuinely interested in you and wants to start off on a good footing won’t mind respecting your wishes – at least they’ll know that they’re pursuing something with you because it’s you they want to be with as opposed to seeking a distraction that’s going to backfire when they realise that they’re unavailable.
6. Don’t project. Most people go through a breakup or few, and it’s not a ‘flaw’ to be separated or divorced hence there’s no reason to go ‘Oooh, they’re separated and I’m a hot mess hence we should be good together’ or ‘They’re divorced and I’m not good enough anyway so who am I to talk?’ Some relationships and marriages don’t work out. Of course some people are separated or even divorced numerous times due to shady behaviour or due to a tad too much Fast Forwarding but that’s stuff you’ll find out through due diligence, possibly quite quickly if you have your feet on the ground and are listening and watching. Judge who they are on the merit of who they are. I know of somebody who is getting married for the fifth time and is doing their best to hide it from their family including their own children – yeah, clearly they haven’t grown or learned a damn thing from their previous marriages.
7. Don’t enter into an involvement with your emotional airbag inflated. If your interest tends to get piqued by being a ‘buffer’ to someone who is transitioning, it would be more beneficial to evaluate why this is attractive to you. You camouflaging their issues is only causing you to blend into the background of your own life. If you’ve typically been a Fallback option, it’s best to steer clear of these situations unless you’re absolutely certain that whatever contributed to your previous habits has now changed.
In the end, it’s about growth because a person can have gone through a number of dubious relationship experiences and then gone through a period of personal growth and their current and future behaviour reflects their healthier habits of thinking and behaviour. These will be self-evident – you won’t need to pull out your magnifying glass, start making things up or coming up with rationalisations.
Your thoughts?
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Hi nat I am new here and I’m having such a hard time. My situation is perhaps a bit diff from others I’ve read. I have been dating a truly kind man for 8 months. We previously knew each other as friends in college 30 years ago and just coincidentally met up again. He had been broken up from a 6 year relationship for a few months. She was a narcissist with capital N and he is an empathic people pleaser who truly cannot bear the thought of ill feelings with people. So he wants/needs closure with acknowledgment of how she presented herself as someone entirely different during courting, and how bad she hurt him. I can’t ever see a narcissist doing that! Our first few months were heaven and he really appreciated my insight as i had a relationship many years ago with a narcissist type. So it is truly affecting us now as he knows he cannot go forward emotionally with me right now and he is also clinically depressed over it. I love him so much and want to help him. He doesn’t want her back he wants the closure. Please don’t be harsh with me 🙂
Mary, if he’s waiting for a narcissist to admit fault for anything, you may as well wish him the best of luck, move on and keep yourself open to meeting a guy who’s not frozen on the spot expecting the impossible from his crazy ex.
He needs to process this, then stay on his own a bit to get over it. If he wants to find you once that’s done, he will. And if you find someone in the mean time, well, the timing was off.
I have enough drama in my life. I never like being sucked into anyone else’s, especially if its someone I was dating who called a recess with me to deal with the ex. Wish him well and run like hell. You deserve more.
I’m so weak, I love him so much I can’t run. He did start counseling. He does intellectually understand he won’t get it so hopefully the counseling will help him find the peace he is looking for to really move past this, and help him figure out why he needs such acknowledgement in the first place. Thanks so much for responding
Mary,
You are NOT weak. You just need a bit of perspective.
If you think you can handle it, try the suck-it-and-see approach and help him through his counselling, but don’t be the fallback girl.
My ex was going through a clinical depression stage and I stuck by him. He eventually used me when he was down and as soon as he was better it was off to new women! I thought I was giving him all the love he needed through his recovery, but he really just needed a doormat while he planned his next sexual misadventure.
If he needs the closure, it is important for him to find it on his own. Maybe you should try loving him from a distance (if you’re convinced he is “IT”). And wait until he is better.
Just Her,
Why advise Mary to try a method that clearly didn’t work in your example? Not helpful. She needs to cut her losses. Period.
Mary,
You´re doing the therapist´s version of fallback girl. Not to be harsh but you should charge him a fee for your time because this is going nowhere (for you at least, he´s getting a free psychologist).
Mary,
You haven’t been clear. You said you “knew each other as friends 30years ago in college” so how do you leap to “loving him so much” now? How many months has it been? Your “first few months” of being in heaven?” Were you actually lovers back in college? It appears that you’ve left a lot out of the story. But, on the basis of what you’ve said which amounts to more about him and HER, than about YOU and he, I’d suggest you run for the hills. Why? He is still deeply involved with her as evidenced by his being so hurt over her not returning his feelings. They may have “broken up” but he’s still in it. Where do you think you fit into that picture? You don’t want a man that you have to nurse like a “Oh, poor baby”. He’s not a child. And, falling in love with someone that you feel sorry for just doesn’t jibe nor is it conducive to mature healthy love that you apparently want with him. Sorry if it sounds harsh, Mary, but a future with him looks very bleak until he’s completely over her and she’s out of his life. And, you should not be involved in helping him break it off with her so that he can be with you. He should be a man and do it on his own. Why would you want to be the OW (other woman), FBG (fall back girl) or FWB (friend with benefits). Screw that. If he can’t extricate himself from her he’s not a candidate for you. Think more highly of yourself. You deserve someone truly unattached.
Since you’re new you might as well learn the abbreviations. At least you’ve come to the right place. You are not alone.
Thank you Karen, JustHer, Tinkerbell, Lilia, Einstein, Pauline!! I so appreciate your help and concern. My heat hurts so much I simply can’t stand it. We were not lovers in college. We’ve been in a relationship for 8 months the first 3 or so great- then he seemed to backtrack into unresolved closure issues so it kind of hung over us, but there was still a lot of genuine caring and good times and he seemed to really see and appreciate that I am a good woman who wasn’t playing games with him, and that my feelings were sincere.
I dealt with a narcissist for a number of years so I GET the insanity, that he will not be able to get answers to the ‘whys’ because there aren’t any!! I finally walked away from that and was able to muster a big “F YOU” attitude when I was done with the crazmaking. I then didn’t date for 6 years until now, and I really felt this was gonna be great. I felt so happy to find a genuinely kind man and when he opened up about her and his hurt I felt I did the right thing by being there for him as a partner is supposed to do.
Here’s the thing, he seems way distant these last 2 weeks- one conversation has him talking abt his pain and wanting to get over it and share his life with someone and “I KNOW ITS YOU, I KNOW ITS YOU”….to the last two days of not calling or texting and when I called him on it last night he was very cold in his demeanor. Said we’d talk tomorrow. I feel the end is prob here/ near and I don’t want that:((. I texted this am and said I think our conversation today deserves to be in person, if you can spare time later. He responded “of course”. Seems too congenial given last night you know? I almost wonder if he’s expecting or hoping that I do break up with him?? What I find so hard to believe is his 180 degree turnaround in his treatment of me lately and knowing I have done nothing to deserve it, causes me the exact hurt he is feeling from her. How could he inflict that on me??
Mary,
All you have is his perspective that she is a narcissist. She may well not be.
However, he is acting like a man who does not know what he wants and is treating you like an OPTION. I did this dance for over 2 years with a separated then newly divorced man who blew hot and cold and waffled about loving me or being ‘so angry’ about his ex and he still broke up with me after all my caring and compassion.
You MUST walk now! It won’t get better just worse. The first 3 months were the honeymoon period (as with my ex -bf) and then after that you keep trying to recapture the guy that sucked you under and he is not the same.
Please don’t wast as much time as I did with someone who can’t decide on you. You deserve so much more….I finally realized I do too!
Mary,
I spent 4 years with an N, so my bet is that he’s suffering from PTSD, which is pretty darn depressing. Even with counseling, it can take YEARS to recover from the shock, trauma, abuse, mind-f’ry – enough to where you feel normal again. This guy has some serious baggage right now. That he knows that and wants to deal with it is to his credit.
The only closure he’s going to get is when he realizes that he’s actually seen something that horrific. I always likened it to seeing pig fly. It’s impossible — but you saw it —– and nobody else out there gets it. There are pigs out there, just flying around, and around, and around.
I’m so sorry….but even with all the love, understanding and compassion you can muster, this will be nothing but painful for you. He’s very damaged right now. Give him some time and space to let him work on himself. If it’s meant to be, it will be.
Run Mary, run! He’s giving you a golden get of of a bad relationship card free, so take it and run!
He’s telling you he can’t go forward emotionally right now and he’s clinically depressed. He’s telling you so listen up and believe him. He doesn’t want a relationship with anyone right now and that includes you.
Give him the gift of sorting out his own problems on his own time.
Mary,
Girl, you’re in the wrong place!!
JUST KIDDING; we don’t bite.
WELCOME.
All I can say is, hon, you ain’t responsible for healing or helping him.
Lord, knows I’ve done the same.
I’m a sucker (well used to be) for any sickly, whiny man that bats his big, infantile eyes at me in such a way that just BEGS me to be his mommy…but when we’re all adults, that get’s real weird.
Romantic relationships cannot be healthy if there is one who is “taking care” of the other. Oftentimes the “taking care” is enabling (not saying you are but it can go this way).
Personal healing has to come from within.
You can’t save him.
Take care and please read Nat’s posts on boundaries, emotional airbag, etc, and basically any issues you are dealing with.
They will help you insurmountably.
Thank you peanut :). Well we are broken up and my heart is just shredded. He has been talking to the narcissist ex for the past week apparently and insists he could not get back with her, he still sees she is the same BUT he sees hope that they can be friends and as I said he simply can’t live to have discord with anyone. I realize how it looks, but knowing him I do think he’s smart enough to know going back with her would result in the same abuse. I don’t think breaking up with me is tied to his seeing her recently, but I guess you never know. He said he’s going to continue with counseling even though the main reason now is he is unhappy in general, no zest for life, even with his work and he is a very creative well respected architect who used to live for his work and now it’s a struggle. Could he see getting bank with me when he feels happy about himself? He didn’t make any false promises to me. I’m just devastated and do not know how to cope. There was so much good that those memories are suffocating me. I told him it was suspect we break up and same time as she returns and for now seems to be cordial with him. She is a narc I know just from the detailed stories so I know SHE wants something other than wanting harmony….we talked (I cried) for a few hours when we broke up….and I know it shouldn’t matter but I have more questions. Top of the list is WHY would he have said I KNOW ITS YOU – I KNOW ITS YOU only 2 weeks ago when talking about how when he felt healed (from her–now it’s just general healing he needs?) that he wanted someone to live with a spend his life with. He truly has never made any real references to our future (ie no future faking). So for him to say that to me want the world– and 2 weeks later we break up?? I so want to call him and ask why’ve said that:(
Mary
Lord knows I’m ill qualified to advise on the matter but you need a line in the sand otherwise you’ll put up with anything. Try to establish what your own limits are. I’m not even going to tell you what they should be cos you’re a grown woman and can decide for yourself.
Grace-I know you are right, I need to know when to draw that line for myself. Why am I so hesitant to do that…. So fearful like I’m not worth it I guess if I stand up for myself. Pathetic 🙁
Hey Mary,
I definitely think y’all breaking up is connected to him talking to his ex.
Also, re: the “I KNOW IT’S YOU,” that sounds to me full of ambiguity, as though he is trying to convince himself he knows it’s you.
Stop martyring yourself for this man. You deserve someone who wants to be with you 100%. Forget him and his ridiculous issues with the narc ex and go out and find a man who will actually appreciate the wonderful woman he is actually WITH.
Thanks snowboard. It has to be related to her– she is seeking something from him and he is prob going to go back and think she will not abuse him this time. I know, he has to accept she hasn’t changed when he is ready to. What gets me is I asked him straight up for the truth, just tell me!! (because truthfully it’d be (a bit) easier to move on if he told me he was choosing to go back to that nightmare even after all he’s read and learned about narcissism). I don’t wish anyone that pain and yet part of me hopes she shows her true colors quickly (which will hurt him) and I do pray that his new knowledge of narcissism pushes him to get out once and for all. It’s so hard to have him always say how wonderful and sweet and kind I was to him and have him prefer this shrew who verbally, emotionally abused him. Just really hard to feel good about myself if being a good person doesnt matter….
Mary,
This is what he knows, and is comfortable with. He likes drama.
You have to stop being concerned with him, and be concerned with yourself. What he did was not very nice. Time to think about what he did to you.
Please look into co-dependency!
Remember, you’re not his mom, he’s a big boy.
Hey Mary, just so you know, what happened has nothing to do with you. Whatever this guy is telling you, it just reeks of BS. I understand how hurt you are and these painful situations can make you obsess on all kinds of stuff and the why, why, why? You will never get this guy to treat you the way he used to, that guy doesn’t exist. I don’t know if you are aware of this but narcissists do attract each other and he could very well be one too. Whether he is or not, ask yourself where is his empathy for you? I am not going to tell you what to do, but that you are in the state you are in over this guy speaks volumes. That you are here at BR is great. Start reading, you sound like you might need some boundary work. Take care of yourself first and get out of the crazymaking cycle by focusing on you. I wish you peace, you are going to be ok.
Thank you Allison and Lucky Charms! I know I absolutely need to look at my own co dependency and stop fixating on him and the whys. It’s so hard to accept there is Nothing I can do, No way that I can somehow be to make this work. But I do know that. What he does- or doesn’t do about healing is on him. I appreciate everyone’s support 🙂
Mary
You have decided that his ex is a narcissist, seemingly based purely on what he has told you. This happens so often, a man will say his ex was a b****, a narcissist, a cheat, a psycho. My father used to tell people who didn’t know her that my mother was some of those things and had many “stories” to back it up. Except that the stories usually had some crucial details left out, if they weren’t complete inventions.
For example; he gave her the house when he left, and got nothing. True. But – the house was only just bought with a 100% mortgage, which she could not afford. And he paid no child support, ever. See what I mean?
People lie and tell half truths.
You are WAY too invested in this mans previous relationship. It’s really unhealthy to be involving yourself in his “baggage”. If that was the main thing you bonded over (analysing her) then, by definition, once he is over her then your role in his life is
finished.
Although, if he’s gone back to her, she may not have been as bad as he said.
Hi mymble, I appreciate your experience– but I have had many interactions with a number of others via him (they all know each other thru a large business enterprise) and the consensus is unanimous- she is a narcissist. But in any case you are right and I’ve been too involved in the mess of his past. What he chooses to do now is not my concern. Thanks:)
Yeah, I was harboring the fantasy that, after a certain age, divorced men are less suspect than someone who has been eternally single. I still think there’s something to that, but I agree, just because someone’s been married doesn’t mean they are or ever were emotionally available.
I’ve always had a rule about not dating separated or newly divorced guys. Way too risky.
I’m at this point right now where, due to a relentless parade of emotionally scary men, I have no desire for a relationship or any intimacy. It’s concerns me that I feel that way, but I just feel like I have to resolve some personal issues. Of course, if someone decent comes along, I’ll notice it, but I’m certainly not waving any availability flags. In fact, I’m pretty discouraging in my own quiet way.
I’m with Maeve. I’ve lost all desire, care and inclination to be involved with anyone ever, ever again. You know the saying,”stick a fork in me, I’m done”? It’s not fear or mistrust, I just don’t have the stomach for it anymore.
I’m very happy, and I’m very content. I’m thankful that after this last miserable experience, I can be still feel so grateful for my many blessings. I think our lives get full when we realize what it’s full of.
Maeve,
I´m at the same point right now. Sometimes I wonder if I´ll end up turning into a nun.
The last time I found a guy attractive – completely EU with too much ego – I just told myself I´d soon get over finding him attractive. And that was soothing, strangely. I would like to share my life with someone, though.
Maeve, Einstein, and Lilia,
I identify with your lack of interest in dating anyone. I feel the same way. I prefer to be on my own than to make the mistake of investing in the wrong person and wasting my time. Taking care of myself and spending quality time with my well-wishers is satisfying. I see no point in dating someone unless he truly enriches my life.
It has been five months since my break-up with Mr. Liar. I feel nothing for him, except regret for trusting him, regret for not picking up on his lies, and regret for giving him my time, care, and attention.
I am unable and unwilling to trust as easily as I did in the past. My tolerance for emotional manipulation is low – and I doubt that I will share my gentle, caring side with anyone again. Even with new-found friends, I am choosing to be cautious.
This is just the way things are for me for now. I feel good about putting myself first for a change and ensuring that nothing and nobody may distract me from my goals. Life is too short and too precious to squander it on unreliable people.
I wish you all the very best in taking care of yourself.
Ladies you have summed up exactly how I feel. It is nearly a year since I dated and in over 2 years I’ve only had 3 dates with 3 men. Do I care now no. There are too many broken men out there and I am not the 6th emergency rescue service behind the police, ambulance, fire, AA and RAC!Plus I don’t need a man in my life to define who I am as a woman or person and I am not interested in casual sex. I meet men all the time and just don’t find them attractive plus my BS radar is on full alert now. I know there are woman who don’t sort their baggage but men are worse. They repeat previous mistakes, blame it on the women they date/bed and wonder why things don’t work out! One guy I dated hadn’t had another relationship in 6 years or dated. Red flag and then it clicked he was sleeping with his ex 6 years on so cue flush. Another single never married guy admitted he was selfish, played the date down as a friendship thing then wondered why he was single… again cue flush. The last date was with a man who was eventually exposed as a player and when he backed off after one date and gave me the friendship card I flushed.The pool of available men once you are over 50 is dire. Most men have gone to seed and expect attractive women who look after themselves to be interested. As if. So now I have my hobbies, cats a good life and am content. People say I may be swept off my feet but my head rules my heart these days to avoid the BShitting chancers out there. I have been through enough pain to let a man close to then be messed about and if I spend my life alone so be it. There are worse things than that.
Feisty and all
I know how y’all feel!
I simply don’t think I can be bothered again.
Yup.
Me too
Add me in also. It’s just not worth it to get all wrapped up in something you think is the sure thing, only for it to fall apart. Imo, men just don’t seem to have the sense of long term commitment women do. Even with the good ones. The only difference is I haven’t been abused, but the let down hurts just the same.
Wow, thanks to all of you, especially Fiesty. This is exactly how I feel. I am coming up on 1 yr. NC. No interest in dating or a relationship. Maybe it’s because I am 55? What you said about your BS radar and the just plain unattractive qualities either mentally or physically. I would rather be alone with my pug than have to endure another guy and all the BS that comes out of their mouths. I have no interest in dating. Ugh. It looks like I’m not alone.
It’s really surprising to me how men think only in terms of what they can get but never on what they have to offer (or don’t). The hold us to some high, unreasonable standard but expect us to keep them to the lowest standard possible. And they defend this as claiming they’ve been hurt before (and we haven’t’?) We’re not supposed to bring any baggage into the picture but they by virtue of having a pulse are permitted to behave as badly as they wish and if we don’t like it, they will find someone else who will.
No accountability. No shame. Appalling. How have we wound up with a global society of emotionally stunted, immature men who are well past the age of such sad excuses?
I give a bit of rope to the young 20-some-odd male, but I hold a grown man to a higher standard and yet he behaves no differently (sometimes worse) than his younger counterparts.
I know I sound like a broken record and frankly I will keep saying it even if it falls on deaf ears: Men DID NOT BY AND LARGE ACT LIKE THIS! They did not! I get it. We are responsible for our part in all of this too. However, I read here and on other sites how women keeping running up against EUM/Assclowns and while there may be a nugget of truth to our being EUM…I allow it only up to a point and then no more. Natalie’s site and advice is helpful and illuminating but even she cannot convince me that the real issue isn’t my attracting jerks (when I don’t have the past history pre 2000s to support this claim). Yes, I’ve been dinged, hurt and whatnot. Has that along with my aging contributed to allowing boundary busting behavior? Sure. But the men have to be willing to bust our boundaries on the outset.
I keep harping on the significant change I saw, experienced and heard about from my other girlfriends and guy friends around 2006 when men no longer dated women as they did in the past: i.e. call ahead, make a date, pick her up, take her out, if date was successful, rinse and repeat with phone calls in between. I do not have amnesia. I recall those days in NYC in my 20s when I was struggling to get by and somehow managed to date men who at least did the bare minimum above. Was I really all that wise for my age? Nope. My boundaries would’ve been busted all over the place if the men had the proclivity to do so in the first place (some did but they were the exception to the rule not the rule itself which aided in my seeing them for what they were, players as they were called back then). The men by and large did not go out of their way to behave as assclowns. They may have had commitment issues or other undesirable problems but they weren’t the jerks we are running into en masse today.
You want to accuse me of rhapsodizing nostalgic, go ahead but I feel terrible for women in their 20s today who do not at least have the yardstick I do from 15 years ago. Now, men cannot be bothered. They set up coffee dates. They do whatever they can to have the woman pursue (and pay for dates) them. They are more interested in a power play than in developing and earning a relationship. They want the goodies all up front, no responsibility and zero accountability and god forbid we squawk! They blame women’s lib, they blame the easy sex (and throw us under the bus there when on the first date they have the temerity to ask us how we feel about blow jobs). Don’t believe me? Read article here: .
They know the score and don’t think for a second they don’t. There are more women than men and if we don’t like their piss poor treatment, well, no big deal, they will find someone so desperate and trod down upon who will, just to catch “a man.” Many of us here are guilty of this.
Natalie encourages and saves us from ourselves but I am sick and tired of hearing how it is all OUR fault. I just am. I don’t have FOO issues, I’m a typical friendly, pretty, fun, low-maintenance woman who is grateful and loyal (and a nice roll in the hay if I don’t mind saying so myself) and I have to contend with women either blaming themselves for this epidemic of the “selfie” male or managing down their expectations to have a man at all. These, so far as I can see are my options.
Neither are damn appealing to me.
We keep coming here scratching our heads in sheer wonderment and utter amazement. Confounded and gobsmacked by the exception of the asshole being now the rule. We keep referring to a good man like he’s the Holy Grail. I love Monty Python, but the men of today clearly had hamsters for mothers and their fathers smelled of elderberries. And we keep coming here while the men keep going to SoSuave.com and AskMen and I say the obvious point isn’t being dealt with which is: We can maintain our boundaries, have reasonable standards and the like but if the consequence is being alone don’t tell me that is okay! Sell your snake oil elsewhere. Hear me and hear me loud: I do not nor have I lived my life with the belief that a man makes me whole and gives reason to my being. Bullshit. But did I believe I would meet a man in my prime and ready age for a serious commitment of some sort (not even marriage!) around my 30s? Yes. I thought life experience, knowing myself better and being more mature and ready to take on the emotional, mental, physical and fiduciary responsibilities would be approximately after I graduated college at age 30. Since 2006 however, I have been shocked and suffering from a Rip Van Winkle somnambulist dating existence the likes of which I had never encountered in NYC or LA in my naive 20s. Now I am smarter, have more life experience, look even more attractive and have more to offer and I am being wooed with less?
I keep trying to “work on” me but I have eyes and ears and watch what my gfs are experiencing even when I’m not dating and it is tragic. It is getting worse. The pendulum isn’t swinging back. I had a very good male friend of 10 years (totally platonic) tell me that the sex card isn’t on the table anymore as the “Don John” is a very real fact. He can get off throughout the day with easy and private access to porn of his choosing and take care of himself quite nicely without “worrying about the woman’s needs.” He admitted he is actually starting to prefer masturbation over the real thing because he knows what he likes and yes, a real woman, now that he’s been desensitized doesn’t measure up. I was shocked and this, ladies, isn’t a “bad boy.” He’s typical 43 year-old-man artist type, sensitive, Libra and all that crap, attractive too and he told me flat to my face, “I don’t need a woman for sex anymore. One way or the other I can find it. I don’t have to woo or be nice to a woman anymore because there’s no incentive. What’s in it for me when the sex card really isn’t in play like it used to be 10-15 years ago when you still had to rent porn while wearing a trench coat? The other aspect he admitted is most men of his age who haven’t secured themselves financially for whatever reason are now looking to be with a woman who can buffer the difference. He even laughed (I’m not his type physically) and he said “If you were more successful, I’d probably be wanting more than a friendship with you.” Um. Thanks? I thought his attitude was terrible but he said given what he’s heard from my experiences, it isn’t me being down and out and sad and low self-esteem issue bag laden, but the new way in which men are currently thinking (not feeling) when it comes to women. He admitted he doesn’t really feel anything anymore and dating is a real drag more often than not. He’d rather “keep his options open and if he meets someone cool and she has something to offer (money, home, etc.) he may be inclined to hang.” Hang. Really?
Now I busted his balls BR fashion but he is a friend and defended his truth serum by giving me the cold harsh facts. He’s even read BR and says it offers great advice to women who probably by using it will not find a man because the men don’t care nor do they want the hassle or expectation of stepping up when all they get is one woman (monogamy) and responsibility. Yuck! “What’s in it for me?” He asked. “I have friends and platonic women I can talk, share and do things with without any fuss or sacrifice. A relationship of the kind you’re referring to takes work and I don’t see how the ends justifies the means.”
He apologized but in fairness, it was refreshing to hear from the other side of the camp and he is not a player, a Narc, an assclown or bad seed gone to pot. He’s actually a pretty okie-doke guy who told the truth as far as he sees it being in it to his long time gal pal that even he has difficulty understanding why I haven’t been snatched up off the market yet. He knows me. Better than all of you and he knows I’m not a fruit loop and he readily admits “You’re not chasing the bad boys.” I’m not. I know that.
Dating for the last several years has had an effect. You can tell me until the cows come home and the sun sets in the west that I am EUM but after over a year of concerted study, self-reflection, therapy and this site, my conclusion bolstered by my nearest and dearest is that I am not. I’m not EUM. I have been made fragile and vulnerable with this drip-drip method since 2006 of men dating me in the most obsequious ways. Yes. I admit my expectations were and steadily managed down as well as most of the women on here. If you keep being open but cautious and doing your work but still being available and all you encounter is a marching band of assclowns year after year, repeat, rinse, repeat like a hideous refrain I don’t care how many times we jog on as Natalie puts it, subconsciously or consciously our expectations will be lowered. It is the insidious nature of the circumstances and when we are completely, totally and up to our ears in the mind-effery we break down and find Natalie via a Google search that I can only imagine is akin to: Am I losing my mind? What happened to men? and other such exasperating tags.
We come here to heal. We learn (or relearn). We are suddenly made to see the maltreatment and bad behaviors not of the exception of the rule but the rule itself with the exception given to those few men who have not been tainted by the “selfie” culture of today. Let’s face it, most of those “good” men are taken, bagged and tagged. We are picking through the scraps and lamenting our bad hunting skills when there’s only bones to growl over. It isn’t us. It isn’t us.
Not solely. We are being or have been programmed. Changing the current program is a frightful option as I read women here say they’ve given up, won’t date, won’t hope and then try to comfort themselves with how wonderful their lives are without a man (given what’s out there can’t say I blame this attitude) but I say No! It is wrong. It isn’t the way to walk on this planet. We are social animals and friends, relatives and what not is not the equivalent to the bond two people share in intimacy and yes, love. Love. Last I checked, love is the reason for our being. It is our ultimate reason to exist and this longing for love is not bad, is not wrong, is not unhealthy. It is biological. It is our greatest attribute as human beings. It is what motivates us to rise everyday even if love is not only the love of ourselves (which is healthy in reasonable supply) but love and devotion to our families, our children (made in love?), our spouses, our friends, our co-workers, a love of state and country. We die for love. We sacrifice for love. We give the best of ourselves for an emotion which goes beyond our basic need to survive but infiltrates everything we do as creative, thinking, complex creatures. Love is universal and specific. We need love. We thrive on love. We exist primarily on the throes of love. It is the binding agent in all our actions, societal and domestic. Love is not rational. It cannot be measured it cannot be contained. Love persists so long as we are willing to persist along with it. Love is our right and honor. It makes us and it breaks us, but to deny love is to deny our humanity. I’m not ready yet to act without love and be inhuman in the process.
Men in large droves are not interested in love. Maybe they were hurt many moons ago but so were most of us. No one gets through life by the age of 25 unscathed unless they aren’t paying attention or are knee deep in serious denial. This “I’ve been hurt” crap is just that, crap and a handy excuse. If we want to compare war wounds, I’m Quint in Jaws with the Indianapolis monologue. I may have gone crackers like Quint, but I had enough sharks to make me so and I see what I see and I know what I know and the worst part is the good women are giving up and the men are taking umbrage. What to do?
I’m not sure. I keep going out there armed with BR knowledge and yes, great, I keep kicking assclowns to the curb in ready speed like I’m in “Kill Bill” or some other Kung Fu movie and what bothers me the most: it is stupid. Men would rather lose me in an instant because they want the power, the control and the ability to do things on THEIR TERMS ALONE than have a woman with any intelligence, empathy, consideration, value, or self-respect. They want cheap and easily led. They hope by now, our expectations have been so managed down over the years that by the time we meet, I will go along with THEIR PROGRAM. It’s a repeat too. Victory? I feel good? Forgive me, but I feel terrible and every time the Push/Pulley or Hot/Cold, I treat they don’t, selfish BS starts, I nip it in the bud but do I feel good about it? No. It hurts to know that normal, common decency and basic manners are gone as well as this nasty mindset most men seem to now have. I think the coldest comfort is being alone, boundaries intact, sure, but alone year after year with only the few assclowns who I finally acquiesced just by sheer force of a broken will peppered in as a reminder of what I am avoiding.
I can be intimate. I can express. I can reveal. I can give. I can show gratitude. I can support. I can expect support in return. I can offer and I can demand. I can do all these things and yet like a tennis match, if the other player isn’t volleying the same in return there is no LOVE. No game. No enjoyment or thrill.
I have a man in my life who is both a colleague and a friend. He is 22 years my senior. Major bummer. Now some of you may say get over the age difference but I cannot. I have tried but I cannot. He is closer to my parents age than mine and it is too steep a hill for me to climb. If I did, I would bust my own boundaries and told later, after the grenade blows up in my face well, you shouldn’t have done that because the age was an issue. Yeah, I feel like good advice is always given after the fact and sometimes runs counter in the moment before we can judge the impact. Hypocrisy much? Anyway, this man is NORMAL! Ladies, this man is not an assclown, EUM, Narc or other such BS. He has his stuff but he maintains a normalcy with both good and bad results for me. He is a gentleman. The kind that holds a chair out for me wherever we dine. He is quick to grab the tab although I throw down too as this is a friendship and should. He hates it because it goes against his sensibilities but he accepts with care and gratitude. He talks to me like a human being. No one-sided convos. He learns more and more (good and bad) about me over time as I do him. He can see and knows I am fragile. He treats me with care not brusque unfeeling. He listens. He supports. He is in all respects a man I would set up with any woman in her 50s who lives in the SoCal area. He is intelligent, literate, knowledgeable without bravado and it is a mystery why he is still single although I think he gave up on the romance scene long ago.
He is my yardstick and while I am every grateful to him for providing a normal rule to weigh against the BS my peer group and slightly older men suffer from, it also is heartbreaking as I scream internally “This is what I used to know! This is what men used to do! This is how men used to behave!” This is NORMAL! Having normal is good but my anger and rage has also returned with every time I go out with this man and think, “It isn’t hard. I’m not demanding. I’m not expecting too much. This is how it used to be when men courted women not too long ago.” Even though many will argue our friendship makes this amicable, I can guarantee if I laid down with this man, his behavior would probably be even more attentive and loving, not the reverse.
He is a man of another time. He is nearing 60. He has not been thusly ‘Modernized.’ He barely tolerates my picking up the check, it goes against every fiber in his being not from a place of control but a place of gender roles and wisdom. Respect. He allows me the privilege (and it is as this man is a well-know established writer of import) because he understands the nature of our relationship. But still, he dotes and pays attentions and recalls the minutest details of me because: he cares. That is the difference between the men of today and the men from another generation. This man doesn’t not spend his free time watching internet porn (it is too vulgar), he’s a man so I’m not suggesting he doesn’t cater to his primal instincts but he’s happier watching Scandinavian television than seeing money shots. He isn’t Googling: How to get a woman and landing on SoSuave or AskMen.com. He wouldn’t give any credence to such horse pucky on his worst day. He rises above. And he is the sort of man I was used to back in my 20s dating both my peers and slightly older. His care and consideration is not a guise and is not alien to me as I dated men who behaved in like up until 2002 but certainly the tide changed in 2006 and every year the behavior is more gross, more shocking, more astonishing, etc.
Now if I can see all these wonderful attributes and feel sick to my core about the age gulf, don’t sell me a bill of goods about how I am EUM. Bullshit! I know good from bad. What has happened to my judgment over the past few years is that bad becomes relative. I might have suffered learned helplessness along the way. But I am not seeking it out. It is unfortunately, how men are and those who are not either belong to my father’s generation (and he cannot wrap his head around the dating mores of today anymore than I can) or they are so few and far between, sadly, most of us will not meet them and isn’t because we are toxic little cesspools walking about attracting bad energy. It’s what’s out there in large supply.
So for all of you who keep saying “It’s me, it’s me…” please stop. You might be managing down your expectations because of years of having them managed down and a new “normal” has lowered your standards by virtue of your human and understandable desire of wanting to share your life with a companion. Nothing and I do mean there is nothing wrong with wanting that.
I may wind up alone for the majority of my life by virtue of the fact that men have given over to the most basest and primal of urges with no approbation to keep such wantonness in check by our society and by men leading by example who are too few and far between. Men want a pack mule.
I’m happy to give my fair share. I’m happy to give my 100% as Natalie advises with due diligence, care and earning over time and experience but I am not okay with giving 100% to a man’s 10% which is pretty much the percentiles as I have seen, read and experienced.
I remember when years ago, men used to lament how women could take advantage, be gold-diggers, etc. You heard about on talk shows, radio, and whatnot. Geez, I haven’t heard that swan song in a long while. Have you? Cause it ain’t happening and the tables have most definitely turned. The men are taking advantage of our earning power (which still isn’t entirely equal but most women are gaining ground with higher education and management positions), we are still the cooks, the maids, the mothers, the lovers and hell if I can’t even be wooed properly in the initial “pink phase” now either.
I’m mad. I’m mad because I do know better, have an example of better in my face and have male friends giving me the real skinny not out of meanness but to prepare for the future that looks pretty desolate. I’m an only child. I can manage on my own just fine, thank you, but I didn’t think I would have to walk alone because men have given up any shred of common decency, responsibility, care, compassion or respect. I didn’t sign up for that when I got my iPhone and text messaging plan. Did you ladies? No? Then stop texting. It’s crap. Stop excusing. Men aren’t as stupid as we think they are (hell, right now they way they got this situation worked out, um, the men are being a lot smarter than us until we wise up and start holding them to a standard that is easily reachable but they cannot be bothered). For the few men who are out there not fettered by this new mentality, I salute you, I pay homage, I hug you, I cherish you even if it can only be as a friend because I’m bleeding over here, screaming in the din and I refuse to say it was also self-inflicted. It isn’t, it wasn’t and if men keep behaving like glutton pigs in a Hannibal Lector movie, at least have the good graces to own it, look me in the eye square like my other friend did and cop to it. Do me that one little courtesy as I keep trying to Wayne Dyer up myself, keep working on me, and keep being open to unnecessary casualties of a gender war brewing right under our noses.
I adore Natalie and she saved me. She saved me. I thought I was losing my mind. Too many of my girlfriends were willing to make excuses, justify and rationalize but are now starting to come around when the obviousness is too much to ignore. Not much help for a perceptive, empath who feels like Cassandra while everyone is telling her she’s crazy. Natalie reaffirmed rather than re-taught. I discovered my values, behaviors were not out of line but I must say I’m working against a tide much bigger and far more sweeping than myself.
I’m a novelist. I truly intended this to my a quick reply and found my fingers typing like Mozart banging the keys. For that, I apologize for taking up space and air time but I cannot sit silent and read almost daily these laments by women and not dive in and scream: It’s not us! Not completely. Like it or not, men in many respects set the tone for all interactions and if we women continue to buffer, excuse, rationalize, tolerate the unacceptable then men will not roll their craptastic behavior back. It will progress. It will carry on for our daughters if it is already (I believe it may be) for the rest of us. We may be victims of a social decay and perversion infiltrating ourselves with every new gadget, technological shift, online access to dating, porn and all sorts of social connections conflating the real issue at hand. Men don’t care (by and large). When they don’t care they treat everything except themselves (but long-term themselves included) with a laissez-faire attitude. We can either choose to be mules or more. Perhaps the solution is as antiquated as the Greeks. I am willing and starting to feel the cumbersome need to write a modern-day novel of “Lyistrata” If every woman banned men from sex and their homes, we would probably see men’s behavior sharply change for the better. Do I think it’s possible? Sure, but not probable. Is this where women may be left with little recourse left to guide them? I say yes. Women will get wise even if it takes us a century to get there. I’ll be dead and buried and good riddance for all that trouble. Eventually, though women will see they are the workers like poor boxer in Orwell’s “Animal Farm” towing the plow from an immense sense of duty and devotion, while raising children (in our current society god bless these mothers even more), while being lovers to men (married or not), while being the nurturers, the housekeepers, the maids and frankly, so far as I see it the slaves to men who are only happy to dine off of our spoils, throw us scraps and leave us on a whim with no fear of punishment or being ostracized. The men are currently holding all the cards and laughing in our faces as we keep trying to play a high-stakes game without any chips. There are those of us who will push away from the table and see the only way to win is not to play. We will survive but we are alone by virtue of our lack of stomaching such a high stakes game for which long-term there are only losers and no real winners. When women stop and refuse to play, then and only then, can the terms be renegotiated. It will take I suppose the pendulum to swing so out of whack before women rise up in numbers and awareness to see with the clarity of having watched their mothers, sisters, aunts, neighbors and friends plow the field alone before they drop dead. No thanks. A Boxer I am not. I will tend to my own garden, knowing my bounty could’ve been shared with another, my yin to his yang as is natural and perfectly biological designed. In this new age, I see the absence of sharing, of reciprocation in all its forms, there are some like me, who still yearn and hold to this but we are fewer and fewer and I’m not entirely sure what is the main culprit or if it’s a multitude of unsavory temptations.
I will accept anyone who argues, “It isn’t THAT bad. You’re just angry and bitter.” Okay. Maybe I am. I will allow this thought to disparage my aforementioned theses. Go to it. I meet and develop various relationships with men continually, and most (not all) are selfish, entitled and demanding of everything without any consideration to what they should offer in counterbalance. Professional, platonic, romantic, etc. I didn’t make the problem, the problem is bequest to me and to all of us.
We can adjust and maintain our boundaries but until we are ready to go offensive and take real action both as individuals and as a whole mentality, the problem will persist, it will worsen as it has and we are either abandoning thousands of years of societal evolution for the hope of some greater benefit (the likes so far I cannot see) or we will be conditioned into a new form of insidious slavery which is very much against feminism and women’s liberation and is the unspoken backlash of men’s misogyny and cruelty denied by themselves in the action and denied further by ourselves as we accept the unacceptable.
MR
I hear you but if it was so much easier to meet and keep a man when we were younger, why didn’t we? I can’t help but look at my current relationship and wonder if I am just repeating the mistakes of my youth.
All my family are married except me and I’m the eldest. Even as a child I never thought I would get married. What we believe is so important. It’s in what we see and do. I’m kinda sick of it!
I can only speak for me and the reason I didn’t get married in my 20s was because I was in my 20s and wasn’t ready for marriage. I had relationships that lasted 1-2 years but I did not think I was ready for the responsibilities that come with marriage. I was also honest about this with any man who was and those that were I let go because it was the right things to do. I don’t consider this period EUM. Relationships don’t have to wind up in marriage to be successful and fulfilling.
The difference between then and now is the attitude most men have today. The selfishness was not so off the charts as it is now (bordering on ridiculous). Men pursued, they courted and would even wait before we became intimate. That’s my experience in a nutshell. We may have discovered later we weren’t a lifetime fit, but they weren’t animals. They weren’t Narcs. I had mature breakups in my 20s compared to ending a relationship now when these men are acting so badly, I have to wonder if they just want us to end it. Even then, they don’t have the good graciousness to accept with any dignity or pride. They whine and moan and then blame.
I can be very happy in a long-term relationship without marriage so long as it is happy, healthy and supportive. My issue is I suspect some of these men weren’t all princes back in the day but they behaved to the standards applicable for the time. Now it seems there are no standards, no shame and no responsibility and when all bets are off it’s like the Wild Wild West.
That about sums it up so the lights can be put out now! I actually know someone whose youngest daughter was being wined and dined by a member of European Royalty. They had been friends for a year before dating. No expense was spared for this young lady of 20 who mixed with Royalty in Europe, was flown in private jets etc she got the full works. The young man had to undertake some National Service and had spoken with his mother about speaking to his girlfriend’s father before going. His mother said wait and see how you feel on your return, then if you feel the same talk to her father. The girl in question would be described as a commoner but a stunner. So the young man returns after being incommunicado and never contacts her. In his absence the girl continued her life smart) seeing her freinds including platonic male friends.She was followed by this man’s PIs in his absence and having to account for her whereabouts/actions in his absence. That would be a major control freak red flag to me. She is now being courted by another man who pulls Royal Rank on the other man. The lesson from this is that no matter what age or how much money men have they can still be 1st class assclowns with poor manners. Personally if it was me, I’d have contacted him through his intermediary and said he is dumped due to bad manners. The least he could have done was finished it instead of the fade out. I suspect his mother reminded him about her being a commoner and that wouldn’t do. If men prat about with me they only get one chance then I flush for good. I don’t tolerate bad manners and will call any man on poor behaviour. Sadly the men I meet on their 40s and 50s are so broken they turn things round and say the woman wasn’t in a good place. Right on that one and who put her there? Yup that man or another one. The more men are told when they bust boundaries there must come a time when they stop and think but probably not. I always believe that if people are told about poor behaviour they have 2 choices….. to change or not. I don’t intend to stop my approach to dating if I get asked out as I put cards on the table one the first date so I don’t waste my time. My card is I am not an easy lay, don’t play games and if I have sex I want it be within a loving relationship. That sorts the wheat from the chaff or the men from the boys though not many men are left standing.
MR, I disagree with most of what you wrote. I really DISLIKE negative propaganda, but I didn’t think it was possible to admire Natalie and her work more…, but you’ve just increased my admiration and respect not only for her but also for all of the strong, positive, proactive women and men who contribute to the BR community, and on that note, I think I’ll just exit with dignity and Grace:
“What we believe is so important. It’s in what we see and do. I’m kinda sick of it!”
Correction: “I am sick of it!”
“I’d rather be home watching my fish.” (Grace, 20??).
MR,
Have you considered that that may be the type of men you gravitate towards.
I believe that there has not been many changes in human behavior, but many of us have lowered our standards and have invited assholes into our lives.
There are many great men out there, we simply have to accept them into our lives.
MRW
I tend to agree with Digging Deeper. There are all kinds of people around. I agree that porn has a malign influence on personal relationships but it isn’t universal and men are not all ACs.
In another post you mentioned a male friend who said he couldn’t be bothered with women any more bc he had porn. I’m thinking he is an emotionally stunted AC however pleasant his surface veneer may be, and there is something malicious about him saying that to you. He’s just a plain old misogynist, and theyre not a new phenomenon. He doesn’t speak for all men. He speaks only for himself, in that moment. His way of life will quickly stale. You may find that over time you find him less pleasant, less interesting, bitter. That’s what happens to those who shut other people out and turn in on themselves. Don’t let it happen to you, either.
Oh wow! A lot of comments came in. Well, my friend isn’t or shown any AC behavior to me but in fairness we have never dated so that could be murky waters. We were talking about “Don John” and I asked questions and thus the dialogue opened up. I don’t think he said it to be malicious or unkind. He was being open and willing to look at his own behavior too. I’ve known him just shy of 10 years and we’ve had ups and downs but he’s never been a jerk or pulled any weird moves on me so I cannot speak beyond that. I’ve noticed men are being far more aggressive though when it comes to discussing sex. I’ve noticed more disconnect in the bedroom too. Now is all of this a coincidence? Porn has always been available via mags, vids, etc., but like the film explores online accessibility is making it easier and the temptation is there right in front of them in a way I don’t think it was as readily so (men always had their collections) but the variety and the access seems to dovetail with the change in behavior time wise. I am not saying this is the only reason, but I am open to exploring how much it may be contributing to men’s behavior in general. I think the jerky statement my friend made to me was saying “I’d be into you if you were more successful.” That was weird and I was on him in BR fashion, but the entire dialogue was fairly adult and calmly related. I thought it was interesting to get a male’s perspective and he wasn’t gross or insulting about it. He’s sympathetic to what I’ve experienced and we wondered if this may be a part, a part of the problem. Other than this, I haven’t seen any AC behavior. EUM? Possibly, but he’s dating and shared his horror stories of being taken advantage of too and cell phone interruptions by his date. I’m the one who started the dialogue so I think questioning his motives is unfair.
I have questioned the gravitational pull, Allison but I don’t pursue men so right there takes some of it off me as I don’t go after men of a certain type or background. Men approach me and they must be at least cordial. That’s what shocks me every time they behave badly. Not at 6 months, not 6 weeks, but a week out and blamo! I date within a 10-15 years age range (usually older than younger) and don’t date a certain physical type. I go for the brainy guys is the only shared quality I see. The intellectuals but damn, even that isn’t always true. Usually, if he’s able bodied, in my age range and asks me out and seems to be pleasant, I say yes and go from there. I stay away from the obvious bad boys, bar flies, and aggressive males so I’m not sure what the similarity is other than the bookish type. I won’t do separated again. once was enough so that’s off the list. Divorced and settled into his singleness, yes, I am open. So I don’t quite see the type casting as I’m not the one doing the choosing. Maybe I should?
MRW
All I can say is that I don’t recognise the world you live in. It bears no resemblance to mine. I’ve never done the “dating” thing. The bfs I had were people I met through work, friends and living arrangements. Dining out was never a big interest of theirs or mine. When we did costs were shared, or sometimes they treated, never seemed an issue to me. There was only one who did a lot of that – expensive meals, hotels and weekend getaways. He paid for everything at his insistence, and he was wealthy. Could never understand why, when he was so nice, kind, reliable, affectionate it never deepened emotionally. One day he just stopped calling, and I found I disnt really mind that much. Turned out (years later I found out) he’d had a girlfriend all along in his home country, who he married on his return. I was for him merely an escort girl of sorts. Did have perfect manners though.
And if a man said that to me, about the porn, I would have difficulty in remaining friends. That glimpse of the real them – however nicely spoken they are, however middle class and well dressed – would put me right off. And he
“wonders” if that’s a problem? Personally I’d rather have some yon shouting obscenities in the street, an out and proud sexist/misogynist, than some metrosexua porn loving creep.
“yob” on the street!
MR,
I don’t pursue men, either, but its who we choose to invite into our lives – Boy, have I allowed some questionable people in. Today, I wouldn’t give these men any time, as they are emotionally detached, or complete assholes.
MR, reevaluate who you have invited into your life, and I believe you will see a pattern of unhealthy, at least I have.
MR,
The only purpose women served for your friend was sex. My God! Talk about emotionally detached! Sad!
I appreciate your comment. I’m sorry if I offended you. This has been MY experience and as far as being negative, I’m willing to accept your view of my being pessimistic. I cannot deny my feelings or my frustrations and I hope you haven’t experienced what I have. I see what I see both in my life, my friends and co-workers and I don’t have much positive to report. More concerning are those who try to be “positive” while being emotional buffers and then convince me otherwise (they won’t even read BR — sad but true). I didn’t see your comment until now, so all I can say is don’t read what I write or do offer a counterbalance. I’m open to suggestions. I’m not sure how to couch my experiences “positively.” They are real and spinning it or making light does them a discredit. There are those who agree or at least see my point of view so I can’t be that out to lunch. Please continue watching your fish as I’m trying to relearn how to cast a line. That’s my struggle. I apologize in any respect.
Actually I agree with MR. That isn’t a case of attracting a particular type of men it is a case of men who have no manners and use all sorts of bullshit excuses for shady behaviour. Sure we have all been hurt but we deal with it, move on and change behaviour that may have put us in that situation. Too many men don’t and they also lie deliberately or by omission.I have a friend who thinks that the men I meet are desperate and extols the virtues of online dating. Yet many of the those same men have or are online dating. Go figure.
I have been dating and falling for a man who is recently divorced; wrestling with a lot of worries and questions – mostly in my own head. I have been comparing myself to his very attractive ex wife and wondering if he would be as excited to have kids with me as he did in the past with her. I think he really does love me. He is sweet, considerate, and caring. I have several issues one is being jealous of his exwife, it’s worrisome that they’ve has all these firsts together, I have yet to be married or have a kid. And second I worry his sweet actions are just what he is transferring to me, from when he was with her. I know I need to be more confident in myself, because, I think, if not, my actions are going to sabotage a potentially good relationship. I have not had any relationship pan out, some because of my actions and some because of theirs and I worry this is another relationship where I’m making a poor decision getting involved with someone who has such a past. But again, I want a future with him. Why am I being so crazy?
H.
You’ve got to learn to love yourself, first. That’s certainly one reason why your relationships don’t turn out well. And, you sized it up for yourself – You’re going to sabotage a perfectly good relationship (if it is that) unless you get your head on straight. I don’t know if you’re new or not, but you need to become deeply involved in this blog. Read, read and read some more. Do you see a therapist? That certainly can’t hurt and would be advisable.
H.
Listen, honey, I relate very well to everything you’ve said, because I’ve had all those feeling, too. But, I made damn sure I got as much help as I could get. You can do it to. You can change for the better, but don’t try to do it alone. We’ve all been in similar circumstances with similar feelings so your situation is not new. Chin up. Forget about his ex-wife. If her beauty was everything why is he divorced from her?
H, you are sabotaging yourself by calling yourself crazy, this is the worrisome bit, your name-calling and crazy-making yourself, which ties in with Tinker’s point about self-love. What if you are picking on information from what appears a complicated constellation? Why silence the voice of your gut? Being confident in yourself starts with giving more credit to your ability to make judgments about yourself and your situation.
Here’s my red line — if a man calls his ex a bitch, I stay away, no matter if it’s been “only months” or “even years” since his divorce.
I DEFINITELY listen to how a man talks about an ex. Among other things, I don’t plan on being anyone’s psychiatrist, so I don’t want to hear all that stuff. It’s one thing to talk about it when there’s mutual trust and a reason to open up about the pain of a past relationship. But just throwing it out there…ugh…one of my biggest pet peeves ever.
Totally agree with this.
Any person who bad-mouths their ex to their potential partners is a strict no-no. You just don’t go there.
It could be you he’s talking about a few weeks later.
I agree totally, and this name calling and bitterness was something that made me very uncomfortable with a recently-separated man.
When he then called his mother the B word, that was the kick up the arse I needed to start NC (I had been dithering).
We can all have negative feelings about family members or exes, but men who routinely use either the B or even worse the C word are, to my mind, most likely misogynists.
After I was divorced, my next husband had reached the ripe old age of 52 as a bachelor with only one short-term cohabitation in his whole life – and we got along famously. Lightning struck, and that was it!
I’m so glad to hear this. Someone else here (was it you???) shared something similar. If they are an otherwise well adjusted man it’s probably not due to emotional issues. And to tell the truth, I’d prefer what you describe than a serial monogamist who goes through one relationship after the next.
My own prejudice is, in part, due to knowing some unmarriageable men–extreme arrested development, looking for a mother.
Divorce Clown. My code word for the 1st woman a guys dates after his divorce. Divorce Clowns will cheer him up, boost his ego, give him great sex, etc. the Divorce Clown does not fix the reasons he got divorced- so he is still full of problems. Plus—- Divorce Clowns are discarded, because of course, he won’t take the first one!!!!
My policy: I never date separated or newly divorced men.! Simple as that !
Angel,
Wow….I realized that was me…for 2 years thru multiple sneaky sneaks with the ex, old girlfriends who kept ‘popping up’, and the multiple painful breakups. Yuck. Hurts to realize what I signed myself up for and i’m certainly never being the 1st in the hopper like that again.
Hi BikerGrl,
Sorry you went through it too. I cried and cried because I really found the guy desirable. He was a talented musician/ singer/ songwriter. I was his Divorce Clown abut 20 years ago, and it turns out…. he is still not married. I’m glad he moved on to #2,#3,#4, etc. and that I didn’t stay around and waste years of my time.
Now when a guy tells me he is separated or newly divorced – I give no more than that brief conversation. I don’t date guys with girlfriends anymore too, and I find out quickly the relationship status of a guy. Happy Trails to all of us single gals! So many fun things to do without dates and romantic partners!
Angel,
Amen to that!!
I cried my heart out over him too; my mental state impacted my friendships and ability to do my job I was such a torn up mess. He moved on to the next (just like the Jay Z song) and I have blocked him on FB so I don’t have to see any more antics.
My life is MUCH BETTER now! Was just journaling tonight about how much I love my life which feels like a miracle given the pain I was in 6 months ago.
Slightly off topic, but I’d like to salute my ex for agreeing to come to this wonderful site and read about how our relationship crashed and burned and find closure with it, so we can both try hard to manage an authentic, game-free, post breakup friendship.
So thanks, AJR, and I wish you and yours all the best. 🙂
This hit a nerve and I write this in tears. In the summer time I dated a man who I believed to be divorced but was only separated, and for less than a year. My biological clock was ticking (I since threw away the clock – another story for another day), and I also have my own issues – Natalie’s sixth point hit the nerve hardest.
I made so many mistakes, didn’t ask the relevant questions, and got completely carried away in future faking. I realised too late and was heart broken. After meeting a string of men who were afraid of commitment, I thought this man with his 18 year marriage was at least, surely, not a commitment phobe. And I liked him, a lot.
He eventually fessed up to not being ready for a relationship – after I’d realised as much.
I wouldn’t go so far as to wish I’d never met him, but how I wish I’d taken it slower, asked the questions, recognised the future faking, etc.
Really, this brief episode was just awful. I’ve got over long term relationships with less pain and time than this. I’d still be embroiled with him on some level were it not for this place and strict adherence to NC.
I don’t know yet if this broke me for good or was my epiphany. I do know I don’t want any male attention. Hence, perhaps, my possibly exaggerated response to a MM making advances (mentioned in last 2 posts).
Thanks Natalie, I’m crying but in a good way…. (sort off). Thought I was over it but evidently not 🙁
MaryW
Mary W,
I commented after you at the end of the “Hard No” post, about your inconsiderate, coworker. Mary, was it also you that posted about the gum popping coworker, too? If so, maybe you need a change of jobs. LOL!
Hi Tink
I read your comment on the last post – thank you! I’m going to start asserting myself because I got in a real tizzy about that and other stressors building up.
No, I don’t have any gum popping colleagues (!) but I used to share an office with 8 people and it was like feeding time at the zoo each and every day. No one’s fault; we don’t have the space for a staff room.
Yes, I’m working on a change of job! 😉
MaryW,
I’m wishing you the best always. As you know changing ourselves for the better is not an overnight process. But keep at it. If you don’t want to date for awhile, that’s fine. We women need to stop feeling that a man is essential to making our lives complete. I’ve learned a lot about myself in this last relationship. I realize that although I want deep, true love I really don’t want to make too many sacrifices. This realization and new found truth has come with age. I like my life. I’m satisfied even though it gets lonely sometimes. But I can always find something to do and spend time with friends to fill the void. I have no desire to live together because I don’t want to make modifications in my current lifestyle in order to please someone else. “Petie” and I have been talking a little more than I’d like. He’ll call me to talk about what’s in the news, or to ask a medical question. I feel the need to just stay away. If he cannot love me the way that I want and need, I’d rather not have much to do with him. This is because I need more time to “fall out of love”. You can’t be deeply in love with a person one day and the next day just because you deem it so, you feel nothing. It doesn’t work like that. I’m really trying to develop ambivalence toward him, because it’s still painful to be wishing for something that isn’t going to happen. The more I don’t communicate and just go on living my life the better and more ambivalent I feel, as opposed to reminiscing after we’ve had a good conversation. To reminisce is to wish for that thing you believe will make you whole. I don’t want to feel empty because I don’t have him in the way that I want. It’s just so sad because we could have so much more if that “situation” did not exist. But it does. I just hope that with time I’ll get stronger. Meanwhile, I’m determined to take good care of myself.
Thank you, Tinkerbell–When I come here, I read all your posts in search of updates as to how you’re doing. More prayers for you and Petie.
Hey Rosie,
You’re so sweet to be concerned. I’m again wishing he were an AC so I could easily tell him to take a flying leap. But that is not the case. I still care and want to know how he is, just like he very much wants the same. Wish it were easier. I’m beginning to feel less involved
and “wrapped up” in him, but that doesn’t make me happy either. I pray for strength to get through this.
Tinkerbell, for what it’s worth, I think you’re doing the right thing under the circumstances. I’m kind of surprised he hasn’t come around. I was really hoping he would.
Thanks Maeve,
No more hoping for me. I’ve spent far too much time already.
Mary,
Sorry you went through this and it really hurts. When most men are newly divorced they behave like Kids in a Candy Store! So many treats to try. Best wishes for you to find a truly loving relationship.
Thanks AngelFace,
I was having a bit of a “moment” when I read the post and then commented. It felt good to get it off my chest.
It was the only time I’d dated a MM before (though separated) and it won’t be happening again!!!
The whole on-line dating thing is also out of the window now. That is one huge candy store for EUMs of one description or another.
I am NC and ‘clean’ of online dating for several months now and life is happier.
All the best to you, too.
This is so true. My sister has been a couples therapist for over 20 years and she commented once that many newly separated men are “sexually hungry.” Maybe some of them think it’s time they “got their share” after years of monogamy or they have the kid in the candy store mentality with no boundaries, no restraint, no reason to deny themselves. After all, isn’t “playing the field” what men are supposed to do? What’s the problem?
Another analogy that fits the separated ex that brought me to this site, is the “let’s give all these new cars a test drive to see which one I really want.” This is fine when new car shopping – not so great when you’re having sex with a succession of women as a dating technique to see which one has the most attractive bells and whistles. This marketplace view of seeing people as commodities is a frightening one. A painful lesson for me to learn, but one I vow I’ll never have to learn again.
Well said and something that is so true.
I wish I understood the importance of getting involved with a man fresh out of a breakup before it happened to me.
He was not married but has two young children with his ex. When I met him he was one year out of his relationship with her. He had lived with her and they owned a home together for 8 years. He was also 10 years older than me. Since he told me it had been a year since they broke up and she lived in another state, I believed that he had or at least was working on moving past his relationship with her. We moved full steam ahead into a relationship that seemed to be going somewhere.
A very long story short, by the time I realized that he was still emotionally attached to her I was already in hip deep. Of course he was and still is in COMPLETE denial about his feelings or dependence on her. I dealt with his denial and his unwillingness to commit to me off and on for 3 years. I broke off the relationship for good in April when on a trip together, he told me that she was coming with their two children to stay with him (in his tiny apt)for a few weeks in the summer. He tried to convience me that “he didn’t want her, he was just trying to appear cordial for the kids” etc etc. I was floored and cried so hard. I really haven’t been the same since. I felt like such a fool because deep in my heart I always knew that he would not commit to me because he was still playing house with her long distance (she lives out of state).
Natalie, I came across your blog shortly after this happened and I thank you for your insight and for sharing your experiences with us.
I’m still healing but at least I’m no longer in denial. It’s amazing the things we tell ourselves and the signs we choose to ignore because we want to feel loved and accepted.
Hi Abby – just wanted to let you know I can totally relate. It’s so disappointing and heartbreaking when your the OW under any circumstance. It’s a form of betrayal. You do get past it, it just takes time and sticking to NC. I feel like I’ve made a lot of headway, but no where near 100% over it.
My exAC told me he was divorced 4 years. I thought it was odd that he and exW seemed to text, talk and meet up excessively. At first, I minimized, because they are coparenting 3 children. He told me his exW has hardly no contact with his family since they split. He said his exW moved to the other side of town. But, my instincts started telling me something was shady.
All LIES. Turns out his exW lives 1 mile from his front door. Divorced barely 1 year. Separated 4 years ago, reconciled for 2 years and divorced right before I met him. And exW has plenty of contact with his family. As I saw recent pics of her on vacation with family.
If anyone knows how to push buttons, it’s the exW. Even if she has no sincere interest, when she sniffs out he has a GF, she can jump in and cause drama. If he’s the AC attention seeker, then this involvement can just be futile for any girl who’s involved with him.
And this is why NO relationship he’s had since his marriage has worked. There’s obviously still a huge emotional investment to the marriage. And other underlying baggage he’s carrying around. It keeps him EU. He prefers to lie and future fake, because keeping it casual is the most he can handle.
He was in DENIAL whenever I talked to him about the boundaries with ExW. And then there was the recent exGirlfriend who was also a ghost in our relationship. Another living 1 mile from his front door. AArgh, I finally got tired of negotiating, retreating, playing Columbo and feeling used.
My therapist said any involvement with a guy who’s coparenting requires a lot of trust. If your in a relationship, you have to ask to speak to the exWife. Afterall, your spending time with him and his kids, so you are justified having a convo with her. Wouldn’t she want to meet the girl he’s planning a future with? Red flag, if he balks at that request. At first I thought that was a crazy idea. But, I get it now. You can learn a lot about what’s going on when you talk to the exW.
Thanks very much for your response Sparkle. Your story is so familiar! I also read your flashback about the ER visit. Funny how those flashes keep coming back to haunt us. They serve as a reminder to leave ACs alone. Believe me I have many flashbacks myself. Sounds like the guy you were involved with was a piece of work also. I too have learned some really important lessons about boundaries from this last “relationship”. In fact, I’ve learned that although I’m generally a strong person, my boundaries were really weak. So for a person like my Mr.U I was ripe for the picking. I’m staying strong and grateful for the stories, lessons and support I find here. Best of luck to you.
I had a flashback this morning regarding something my exAC told me. We were in his truck, returning from a day trip to the beach. Out of the blue, he says. Oh did I tell you the crazy way I met an exGF? I took my daughter to the ER and she was a nurse. She was good looking. I got the courage to call her a few days later. She asked me when I was going to fix her up with my friends. I told her I was interested. She said your married, so no thanks. I told her I was getting separated soon. It took 1 month but finally she caved. She was good looking. I dated her a year then kicked her to the curb, cuz I reconciled with the exWife. I said, well this is what generally what happens when a girl gets involved with a married man. He said, yes, that’s why I didnt feel guilty about how it ended.
I wanted to jump out of the truck. His arrogance was nauseating. He semmed proud of his conquest and no empathy.
This story just confirms how important it is to have strong boundaries and stay away from men who are obviously unavailabe. The end result is always disappointment and heartbreak.
I’ve been through this myself, I thought that as I was friends with the guy many years before his breakup with the wife I was different and that he wouldn’t treat me as a temporary band aid to his issues. In the end it drove us apart, his ex wife was always going to come first in her neediness especially as she held the cards with the children ( yes it’s difficult when children are involved) he said to me he needed to keep her sweet and that even involved me being constantly let down with arrangements and plans when she clicked her fingers. Also I’d been dating this guy for 18 months and I’d not be introduced to the children and he never told his ex I even existed! This should have been the major red flag as I look back on it all now that he made excuses that she would make life hell with access arrangements and was scared of her. She ended the relationship with him and you would think 2 years of separation on divorce proceedings that she wouldn’t really care? In my opinion he would of gone back if she wanted him back he kept me as an option and when it got too difficult to handle two relationships I suffered badly felt low self esteem, not worthy but he couldn’t see it. I was there to hold his hand through the difficult times but all I got was crumbs. During the relationship he had been texting other women, going on chat forums and escort websites for ego stroking. But I was too soft to kick him to the curb, as I made excuses with him bring depressed and struggling with the divorce. It got so bad he stop communicating with me and when I asked what was happening I got nothing! He lied about when he had the kids and said that he didn’t want any confrontation from me when I caught him out, like lying wouldn’t cause that anyway???
Any way we broke up and went into NC, then 6 weeks later I get a text asking my expert opinion on something! I foolishly replied! But got no thanks or even asked how I was!! Again selfish AC! When we broke up I found out that the final paperwork was being drawn up and I said so this is was this is all about then, he wasn’t over the break up full stop! Then said he wanted to be on his own, which my reply was he should have said rather than string me along! Selfish AC… Then two months later I see him out on a date with someone!! A complete slap in the face!!
I’ve be pretty burnt by this experience and it’s been 9 months and I still have issues around how id been treated. And I’m angry with myself to allow it to continue for so long.
My advice is to stay away from those separated as I’d say its 99% chance that they are not over the break up and it’s not an enjoyable experience being dragged into that mess of an unavailable person. Yes it’s nice being pursued, and flattery etc…but it doesn’t last! You end up with crumbs in the end.
After 2 relationships with this type, my rule is…avoid being the 1st woman they date or “good-time Mary”. Emotionally unhealthy men don’t like to be alone & will quickly take up with you as a diversion, ego-boost, & avoidance of emotionally dealing with the end of their relationship. Beware of the charming narcissist who will woo you like a princess & the passive-aggressive whose actions don’t match his words. I’d rather be happily single than in a relationship with an emotionally constipated “man” (an ego-fragile boy in a man’s body).
Frankly,these guidelines go for widowers, too.
I’d been with a man who had filed for divorce and been out of the house…I hadn’t realized, despite his protests, how enmeshed he still was. Really: you’re having a relationship with BOTH of them when they’re in transition, and I certainly didn’t want that woman in my life. 18 months of listening to the terrible things she said and did, only to see him go back to her. I was totally drained from the experience.
I started dating again and was charmed by a widower, but recently learned his wife passed away only a year ago. He’s processing it nicely, using it as a tool to be a better man, but I don’t want to be his first. To tell you the truth, even though she was an amazing woman, the Tales of Yore started to bore me. I told him ‘friends only’ and he’s fine with that. Let someone else comfort him. Never again.
Swissmiss,
Yes you can never compete with the dead. I once heard that line in a film and it stuck forever.
(This was a Helena Bonham-Carter film about a couple who become friends with a rich heiress, he woos her, only the heiress dies and he finds himself madly in love with her even though he was only after her money in the first place. So the couple breaks up eventually.)
Hi SwissMiss,
And if they are older widowers, then they have financial agendas they are protecting. If they had to divvy-up the stuff in the divorce they tend to be pretty protective of their nest egg, and home. Plus, there is factor of his children. All of this screams PRE-NUP through a good lawyer hired by US to ensure we aren’t ripped-off when he cheats or dies. All so complicated, seriously, it is easier for us to develop and be happy in our own lives without these men. To bad, cause I’d love to Love and be loved….
At my age, divorced is my only real option. The men I’d met who were in their 50s-60s and never married include a guy who stalked me and two hoarders. What worries me are the multiply divorced. A third marriage has something like a 90% failure rate. Is it that the dude does not do well in a marriage due to some personality issues or was he just unlucky? My dad was divorced 3x and the reason was definitely the former. Good lessons in how not to be. I really listen to how the ex is talked about. Yep, if it was all her fault, if he accepts no part in the failure of the marriage, time to run away fast. There really is no time limit on getting over it; I dated someone who divorced in 1990 and still was angry about it. Some newly divorced had their marriages die a long time ago. I too worry about the end of my marriage and whether I am over it. Partially because of the circumstances; we never fell out of love, I had to leave to find work. Partially because my ex is a wonderful, intelligent, socially aware person and most men I have met since do not come even close to what he is. I am no longer physically attracted to him but I do miss the meaningful companionship. Trying to date guys who don’t care about social/environmental justice, do not read much if at all, are clearly less intelligent and caring than my ex has been kind of a bummer. They’re not offering any of those qualities nor are they substituting anything else to take their place. It was that feeling of futility and emotional/intellectual starvation that led me to respond to the attentions of the at work AC. I realize I was really lucky with my ex husband and that maybe I ought to just give up.
noquay–the thing you said about no one measuring up to your ex really struck a chord. Every guy I’ve dated or considered dating after my marriage ended just fails in comparison.
Obviously we broke up for a reason, namely problems neither of us had the skills (or maturity) to resolve. But he’s really a caring person, attentive, was strongly engaged in our relationship, and it really set the bar for anyone who came after.
This isn’t even just reminiscence—I remember feeling that way during our marriage…but I just happened to handle a need/conflict badly and he wasn’t good at handling it either or communicating his needs and things nosedived (which is a whole other story).
But bringing it back to point, there is such a stark difference between quality of men I met pre-marriage and post marriage–it’s a shock to my system. I feel like I still haven’t accepted and adapted to the cold harsh reality of it.
Mary
Narcs NEVER apologize. He will never get closure, she, if truly a narc, is incapable of such. He needs to fish or cut bait, period.
One of my top 10 boundaries – no married, and definitely no separated men until the ink is dry on the divorce papers and enough time has gone by so I’m not his rebound girl or a shoulder to cry on.
Elizabeth, I’m with you, if I hear a guy bagging his ex or calling her names I’m out. Far too many unresolved issues going on and I’m not getting involved.
Pauline,
The ex was still not over the ex wife after THREE YEARS!!!!! She was still a big part of his life – including, having a key to his home. Every time she called he jumped, and they still did family outings with the college age children – funny though, he declined her invite to reconcile. When I look back, I can’t believe how ridiculous it all was! LOL!!!!!
Live and learn!
Allison, it’s hard to know what moves men in their minds. A lot of them are just strange.
After soaking up BR for a while you can spot the weirdo’s coming a mile off. I can spot the fast forwarder’s, future fakers, assclowns and EU’s and I leave them alone. It has shrunk my dating pool significantly and you know what, I don’t care. I would rather be alone than get involved with any of these ‘lost boys’.
Some of these guys will never get over their wife, girlfriend or whoever especially if the woman has dumped them.
A lady I know is going out with a widowed guy, the ink isn’t even dry on his wife’s death certificate and she thinks she’s onto a winner. She’s ‘helping’ him get over his grief and loss. What can I say! Somewhere down the track he’s going to get over the loss of his wife and he won’t want her around to remind him all the time. I hope not for her sake but he still talks about his dead wife constantly and recently took this lady on a holiday to all the favourite places he went to with his wife. It’s just wrong.
Pauline,
Oh, yes,it soooo easy to spot these idiots and their ‘charming ways.’
It’s so sad how we can sacrifice so much for the affection of another. Your friend is going to get screwed, as she sounds like a true Florence. Has she always been co-dependent? OMG! Didn’t she think it was strange that he took her to those places?
Allison,
The lady is more an acquaintance rather than a friend and I think from the way she behaves and warns all the other women off she is in love with this guy. From what I can gather she knew both of them before his wife died and maybe she has had a secret thing for him for quite some time and now the wife is no longer around its full steam ahead. She definitely has her own agenda here.
He’s having a great time, sex, a shoulder to cry on and she doesn’t raise a squeak about how she’s being treated.
I’ve done it myself in the recent past, put up with crap because I thought I was in love and he would sort out his problems (with my help of course), eventually see me for the wonderful woman I am and we would magically ride off into the sunset, madly in love etc, etc, etc. We know how this fantasy pan’s out in the long run.
Men DO know the difference between right and wrong and if she’s quite happy to put up with being his emotional buffer, his fallback girl, he’s not going to stop her, why should he? Men will do what they want, when they want.
I’m always surprised when men have a new woman in tow 5 minutes after the previous woman is no longer around.
My ex husband was living with a girl shortly after we split and he kept ringing me and coming around saying he still loved me and wanted to get back together. I asked him if his girlfriend knew how he felt and he looked at me as if I was silly. Needless to say he didn’t see what was wrong with what he was doing. I finally figured out that what he was doing with this other girl had nothing to do with how he felt about me. The poor girl was a stop-gap until he got me back and then everything would be great between us again.
What was he thinking!
It seems the only way a lot of men can cope with grief, pain and loss is to grab the next woman who comes along to make them feel better and they don’t really understand about how that woman might feel. It becomes a pattern in their life with issues never being resolved, just masked until reality hits at some point if it hits at all.
I’m so glad I found BR, I not only understand men better but I’m also understanding me and my motivations for doing what I do. It’s woken me up to the fact that my attitude and behaviours have been pretty bad at times (female assclown) and I’m working my way into a better place.
Pauline,
It almost sounds like there is no conscience at all- the ones that use the bridge to overcome their sorrows. I just don’t understand how your ex – or anyone – could think that was OK!!!!!!
Hi Natalie,
I’ve been divorced for 3 years now and over 40. Both myself and my husband have moved on however, due to the fact of being mistreated whilst married which resulted in me losing my self-esteem completely. My belief now is that, I will never meet anyone again. I’ve even noticed Over the last few years nobody even seems be interested or attracted to me, why is this? Is it because of the perception held about myself.
I look forward to your response
My last ex husband was a highly sophisticated AC of the PA type. He knew better than to tell tales with red flags. He had nothing bad to say about his ex wife and he loved his mother, two things which I viewed as positive. Well, that was so I wouldn’t ask questions: he gave me the bare minimum info – that his wife had an affair and left him, and he had loved her very much and that was that. There was nothing further to add – ha! Seven years later, I was so fed up with him that I got up the nerve to compare notes with his ex and we had a lovely afternoon. It clarified a lot. By that time too, he had stopped disguising his AC acts with “good intentions” and was giving me a good view of his cruel streak. It took me another three years to line up an escape route. I left my wedding ring on top of a note before I went out the door. (I love that song, Don’t Smoke in Bed, by Julie London).
Mary and everyone,
Here is something that you might want to print write out and stick it up on your wall where you see it every day!
WHERE THERE ARE NO BOUNDARIES, THERE IS A WEALTH OF PAIN WAITING FOR YOU.
Also. When I have been with Mr Unavailable…”I’m left sad, unsatisfied and empty with my desires and needs unmet”
“The pain of loving Mr Unavilable makes me feel the love is more worthwhile”. I was operating out of this sick premise.
I’m on day 24 of No Contact with the second man this year,he lives 8 feet across the hallway from me! I guess I just needed to really, really learn this lesson.
Now I’m dating a guy who is two years separated and who I am not that attracted to. He’s a nice guy and I am learning to have really strong boundaries about him still being married. I don’t say anything, I just won’t get physically close to him. After this article, I am just wondering if I have picked another unavilable male because I am still so unavailable. We have to remember…it’s us that is unavailable that makes us pick these guys. Anyway, I’m working through it. I’m a widow and I waited four years after my husband’s death to date but then started picked EU’s even though I didn’t realise it at the time.
It’s a process and I am much further along than I was earlier this year. I wish you all such blessings in walking this path that is so HARD and takes a lot of courage. Gillian
You have been spying on me again Nat!!! The Object of My Affections has been blowing hot and cold. I know, I really do, that he is interested, but he pulls me close and then pushes me away again.
He has been divorced for many years and has minimal contact with EXW as kids all grown up. All very confusing. I asked a simple question about why he had started smoking about 5 months ago after quitting for 3 years and he said “Oh the usual reasons, personal problems.” AAAAGGGGGHHHH!!!!!
Run Tabitha, Run!!!!
Hi Mary,
I just wanted to say after reading your post, this person is definitely an EUM. You can’t have a healthy relationship with an unhealthy (depressed) person. I have been there, and it’s so very painful and even more painful when you were patient, stuck around, and gave your all to have them tell you they aren’t emotionally ready to make you happy and end it. If I were you, I would tell him you need to give him his space to sort his issues and reconcile when he’s in a better place. You don’t want to put all your energy into someone who can’t give it you in return because they are lost in their own despair.
Thank you “Moving On”. I just posted an update (see earlier near my original posts). He broke up with me, I am just beyond devastated. I want him to want me– even after he heals, but there is no such guarantee….I am a great woman- he does know that- I just feel like maybe I could never quite compare to how hr felt about her– and that is very tough to swallow given the emotional abuse she subjected him to during their relationship. Time is moving so slow and I just don’t want to feel this gut wrenching hurt :((
Mary,
She didn’t subject him, if he stuck around. Some are comfortable in this environment, as its what they know. He is unhealthy.
Don’t contact him, you’re not going to get any answers. This guy has a boatload of problems, and is not over the ex. There is no room for you in his life.
Give yourself some time, and look for someone who is attracted to healthy. This man cannot provide it.
Man.. I wish this article was penned a few months ago.. LOL because this article felt like it was meant for me to read. We dated for 4 months and shortly after started to show the signs which I thankfully recognized before I found myself in the FWB category.Its quite fresh and there are even days when I would like to call him but I think its best for me not to do this, he needs to figure this out on his own and I will not be anyones shrink he was a great friend but I want more. Its important to learn to forgive oneself during this time and even the person AC/EU and all because sometimes that anger can eat deep and actually cause you to miss out on a good thing.. Thanks NML all the best with the show !!!!
Maeve
Sad for you but also glad to hear it’s not just me. Even though he is now 80, my ex is still more caring, socially/emotionally/physically alive than most of the 50ssomething’s I meet here. It’s as though the dating pool abruptly tanked. I suppose because they are in shorter supply, and we older chix are in excess, they really feel no need to get their act together as some chick is always there desperate enough to take them as is. Perhaps it’s living in a different part of the continent, perhaps values have really gone downhill over the past coupla decades. Seems to be a lot more allegedly available guys that have major emotional issues, financial issues, addiction issues. I find this really alarming as I am a very overedumacated sort and am not hanging out in crappy bars, hook up singles venues, anywhere remotely trashy and still encounter dudes rife with these problems including attachments to exes, using women as rebounds etc. Methinks our society is headed in a very bad direction.
That’s interesting, Noquay.
I am finding men at my age (65) much nicer than when I was younger. More respectful. At 25, I wondered why they weren’t jumping my bones, now I’m grateful. They don’t want to get deeply involved without knowing what they’re getting into. Neither do I.
I avoid the traditional types: that never worked for me, the men who live thru their children & grandchildren, or deify or dun the dead or divorced wife. They’re frozen in old roles and comfortable there.
We all need time to recover from disappointment and loss, but some men do not have the will or energy to build their own lives. They’ve taken up permanent tenancy in the Transition Zone.
The widower did fear he would be stuck there, was ready to clean out the house, remove his wedding band, etc. He was Taking Steps. But 45 years of marriage—that’s a lot of history to avoid in a discussion. You just end up feeling you’re not even seen. Or at least I did.
It was the same with the ex. The wife, the kid, the this, the that…I was third on the totem pole, our needs as a couple came last. I made up my mind, through BR, that I was never going to devalue myself like that again.
The creatives I meet seem sensitive, concerned, and readily accept that relationships start as friendships…with a click. They don’t care about money, but want an exchange of ideas. There’s more opportunity for authenticity. Maybe because creative roles require them to be imaginative, practical and in the moment? I’ve been pleasantly surprised.
Noquay—yea, my target age group is 40s-60s. I do think available men get taken off the market quickly because there are more women around. I tend not to focus on that too much, because all it takes is one good guy, right?
I’m really hoping hoping hoping that by keeping our own priorities straight–and zero wasting time on EUMs will make it easier to meet someone good.
NoQuay,
Well said. I agree.
Swissmiss
It probably has a lot to do with the part of the country I now reside in. Rather than permanentlybbeing in transition, they are permanently in the give up/ failure zone. They’re not living thru their families, unless they are living off of them. They do not seem to be present for their kids/grandkids either. Although I am educated in the sciences, I am also very humanitarian and creative. It seems as though these dudes just want to watch life on TV rather than living it daily.My ex was very much like myself though he was/is more accepting of middle class life. Picture a chick who brings up controversial issues in a science class, goes out solo into the mountains, at night, when she’s stressed, lonely, and cannot sleep, reads a minimum of two books a week, peruses the Times along with her morning coffee, all while living in a very impoverished, redneck mountain town. I miss the exchange of ideas, the in depth looking at issues; most of my colleagues just want to talk shop. I don’t care too much about money so long as the guy is well kept, pays his bills and isn’t looking for a meal ticket. At least you give me some shred of hope that maybe in my 60s, when I retire, I will be able to leave this area, though I will miss mountains and mountain lions, and be able to travel a bit beyond my home base up north and find such men.
From what I can see here, women in UK and US have identical complaints/experiences. Half the time I don’t know which country I’m reading about. Is it an Anglo culture thing or a post-industrial thing? lol!
Hi Maeve,
LOL. Love what you wrote. I think that because men think with their private bits – we will have to renew and make major societal rules similar to what was going on in the 1950s in the USA – in part, family ties, dating, monogamy, and no sex before marriage. Divorce was not the norm it was disgraceful.
But with the New Social Rules similar to the ’50s, we have to insert that women can use their brains and talents and be more than housewives. So many women suffered depressions, shock treatments and were committed by their husbands into asylums.
A shame., those gals almost had it all. Unless we women change and enforce new social rules ( including freedom of sexual preference..) all will continue to go to Hell-inna-Handbasket.
Feels so un-natural for me to not be having sex on a regular basis. I’m practically celibate cause I wont give it up under these heartbreaking scenarios…. What A Shame.
Angelface I wholeheartedly agree. I think women set the parameters on sex because we historically have had so much more at stake. We still do, but it got lost in the confusion of new found freedoms (e.g birth control and economic independence).
I wish the pendulum would swing to the middle already. It’s been like 30 years at this point. Waiting, waiting…
Noquay, I always empathize with your posts because you and I are in exactly the same boat. I am in the natural resources field, which means I get to live and work in astonishingly beautiful natural areas of the country, which is great, but the down sides are the (forgive me, don’t want to insult anyone) redneck, intellectually and culturally impoverished communities that come with the territory. I was brought up in a world-class city and have always been torn between my need for the vibrant, cultured urban world and my deep love of nature. Very, very hard to find someplace that blends the two. I remember a friend who worked at a gorgeous wildlife refuge in Maine, but couldn’t stay there very long because there was simply no way she could endure the rural culture. She once joked that her only criteria for dating men there was that “they had to at least have teeth.” Needless to say, she transferred out as soon as she could.
The men I work with here are very interesting, educated, rather progressive and broad-minded people with many interests. Like me, they are all from other places, which is very typical in this field, and as transplants we have a lot in common. They are my equals – and unfortunately all are already married. The only single men here are the locals. Because of its beauty, this area is also a prime spot for retirees and artists which did seem promising at first – but almost all of them come here as well-off couples who are enjoying a comfortable retirement with their hobbies and grandchildren. I have yet to meet one suitable man who has retired here as a single person. Just not happening. I am not going to find a partner if I stay here. Not quite sure what to do about this truth. Like you, I have to figure out how important is it to me to have this in my life – it it important enough to uproot myself and take the scary risk of the “geographical solution”????
Wiser–I live in a place like you describe (Cape Cod actually). In addition to retiree saturation, there’s a predominance of divorced women. I know a handful of singles who have all dated the same pool of online men and now will only date strictly off Cape. lol!
Like you, I’m not sure if I should be living in my current location or not. There are things here that meet many of my needs, but the man thing is pffft. I’m from a world class city myself (born and raised in New York, but frankly all the New York single women are complaining too).
I don’t know what the answer is. Maybe there is no right answer…
Unfortunately Swissmiss, I am a very high activity, outdoor oriented person and despite my yearning for things cultural and intellectual, do not do well in any sort of urban and suburban environments. Lived in both and came close to killing myself. I do wish to be married or in a LTR again but I understand that my only real option until I retire (7 years)is for some sort of “weekend husband LDR” situation. Again, I figure there is plenty of time to do the “old maid” thing when I am 80. Lots of older, fit men come here for the races but find the poverty and trashiness of this town a turn off. Dating a local and the horrid, humiliating situation with the at work AC has convinced me to avoid locals like a disease. I do a lot to try and help, even fix this community, but it is a matter of working very hard and getting very little in return which I guess is to be expected. I made a very wrong choice on where to live although I also realize that at the time, this seemed a really good choice, that I have a great job, most of my colleagues are awesome, and the financial analysis of my situation has shown that sticking it out so I can retire early while I am still vital and healthy makes the most sense. I really hear you about older men and their family/financial baggage. I own my own homes, pay my own way in all things, and am very careful to protect my assets because of this very issue. Tis really cool to read the perspective of another older women and at least know I am not alone.
Wiser, add mountains and Id swear your friend lived in my town. Yep, teeth are scarce and hygiene can be iffy (or is that whiffy). I did live in a ghetto, complete with roaches, as a kid, then a lilly white suburb that didn’t take kindly to traumatized brown kids like me. I was raised to be wannabe white, wannabe middle class by my uneducated parents and bailed to the woods at 17 and worked my way through college as I was NEVER going to be sucked into wither wannabe or redneck values ever again. Sadly, my home community, where I lived with my ex is more rural (try 200 people)than here but also had a small educated, progressive community. I guess it is much harder to live in these areas when completely alone than partnered.
Hi Wiser,
If you are considering the giographical solution be sure to factor in all the effects of global warming in any area you might choose to live. For example do you really want to live on top of an active volcanoe due to erupt (Kona,HI), do you want to chance the Midwest with tornadoes killing >20 folks at a time, do you want waterfront property that will flood or have a mudsliding hill coming at you? The saying “You can run but you can’t hide” comes to my mind, as well as “same shite, different city..”
Best to pick a place where you can earn your way, be safe, and find a mate. Does that place exist? Best wishes to you.
Noquay
Where you reside is definately a factor. I lived in a pretty little city by the beach, populated by conservative people who thought of pizza as an ‘ethnic food.’ Not much to do, so I got involved in the community,where I made many friends—who all ran home to watch their favorite TV programs.
I am not making excuses, but the X was the most exciting thing that happened to me there. For him, too, although he liked that atmosphere. Gosh, it was dull.
I have since moved to a major metropolis. Lots of stimulation and choices. I used to travel all the time and meet men that way, but I don’t want a LDR again. My work required me 24/7, all over the globe, and I didn’t have time to develop anything much. With retirement, it’s the day-to-day fellowship I am after.
One man gave me a huge hug on the first date. I pulled away and said, in a friendly but firm way, “I’m not ready.” He apologized for offending me! Forty years ago he would have hit the road.
I’m not looking for a husband, provider, or father to children I intend to have. Maybe that makes a difference? Just after a ‘main hang.’ Someone with no long queue in front of me, either, whether that’s kids, grand kids, ex-wives, dead wives, banks or mortgage companies.
I think the article overly presumptuous and unfair. I’ve been separated for 4.5 years and have been dating from very beginning and can honestly say I haven’t had emotional ties to my ex at all during the entire time. Yes, we were/are involved in a legal proceeding but other people are involved in bankruptcies and child support actions and foreclosures and corporate takeovers and will probates, etc. That doesn’t make a person undatable. It’s just part of life.
P.S. I think it will be finalized next month. (My ex has been purposely dragging his feet and our case is complicated due to the assets we own and the state of the economy which makes it difficult for us to liquidate them.
I am a self-confessed Virtual, and have been a Fallback Girl for an online guy (who lives 1000 km away!) who never contacted me in a year and then out of the blue (after a break-up he went through) wanted to “reconnect”. I asked to meet up with him in-person, but he was too afraid (because he claims we would eventually resent one another over the distance – it could never work). I read the “Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship” and it was exactly what I needed. I stopped e-mailing him. It has been a month since I wrote him a short letter explaining that I cannot be his online “friend” indefinitely without ever even meeting up.
But I KEEP “GOOGLING” HIM! It is horrible. I know Googling him is useless (and hurts me), but it’s like an addiction. I keep thinking of him, even when I know he’s MR. SUPER DUPER UNAVAILABLE – heck, he’s MR. NOT-EVEN-MEETABLE! I just want to stop, and move on, for good. I feel lonely, admittedly…and I am battling a chronic illness so I am especially vulnerable to isolation (it’s hard to physically attend social events, etc)…and I think loneliness triggers the self-defeating Googling. Sorry to whine.
Boy, can I relate to this article and the above comments. Wish I couldn’t but I can.
I used to consider the amount of time a person is broken up/divorced/separated but now I know more often than not, chances are there needs to be a “rebound” between the two, a bridge relationshit for the walking wounded to the emotionally available. Unbeknownst to me, I’ve been the bridge carrying the wounded over into basically the arms of a woman who did not suffer the injustices or indignities I did to get them to the other side. It is a terrible feeling of being used and abused and they rarely, if ever, apologize or even see their maltreatment.
I used to have a hard and fast rule of no divorced or separated men until I hit 35. I realized I was going to have to relax my rule if I ever wanted to see daylight (or nighttime) with a man again. Sadly, the relaxation brought me here with a Cerebral Narcissist/EUM = Separated man of two years.
My first and critical mistake was allowing him to even sniff the steam off my pee never mind that I focused on the 2 years separated, him living in his own apartment for 2 years. I thought surely he’s worked out his issues in all that time. There had been no emotional airbag in between so guess what I was? Yup. The buffer, the bridge, the doormat.
Fun stuff. Painful lesson and one I will never do again. The man is a Narc so his separation status is not the only issue at the fore and ironically, due to his selfish, self-serving treatment of me, I got out in a relatively short amount of time. In that respect, it was a win for me but a brutal victory.
His selfishness was off the charts in every respect. He also (major red flag) referred to his ex as a ‘psycho’ but could not define her craziness in any real terms. She seemed normal to me (and she is). Hell, she worked and paid for everything while he mooched off of her. He feels entitled to it too. Did he ever give her any thought about what he was contributing and how to make her happy? I can say after dating him 4 months, NO, NO and NO. Of course, he took zero responsibility no matter how many times (3 that I know of for sure) I tried to ask him what he did or did not do to contribute to their divorce.
I knew it was a flag before finding Natalie’s site. I was troubled by how someone who could extol all the radiant virtues of being a father and had the temerity to throw the mother of his child under the bus and how an otherwise “intelligent” man could not see that a 10 year marriage means two people are responsible for its dissolution, not just one.
He left her with a 10 month year old child (validated in obsequious ways) to seek out his narcissistic supply on his website. Crazy? No, his ex-wife I can only imagine is a co-dependent. I am sad for his son raised by the polarities of these two parents but once I couldn’t deny his actions and excuses anymore, I got out. It still steams me he cannot accept, own, apologize or make amends to me (or anyone else for that matter). There’s a cruel cut when I was ego-stroking, listening to him and only him without his having any curiosity about me, sex and more with not so much as a proper date in return. But of course, I’m the demanding bitch. I’m supposed to lead a 47-year-old man (twerp) by the nose. It’s my fault. I know better and I know what any woman who snags into him will get. Hope they enjoy the one-sided narcissistic relationshit he can provide and nothing more.
Children do make it more complicated. Yet another aspect he was totally insensitive about. I wanted to wait and make sure we were solid before becoming involved. I thought that was healthy and mature.
It was but he wasn’t.
I hate to say it but now I am highly suspicious of the divorced/separated man. My feeling is if he was so much a prize and a good man to start with he wouldn’t be divorced (most likely) and hence unavailable in the dating pool. Had my Assclown/Narc/Eum/Separated pond scum been a real treasure, a real prince, he would be living with his wife and the mother of his “prized” son, contributing and supporting her as she did financially and culinary speaking.
He is a user, an operator, an opportunist, a liar, a hypocrite, and a stand up right bastard. He is an entitled little Napoleon with a shrimp dick and a false self to protect his fragile wittle ego.
All I was to him was a warm body, an ear to listen to his grievances and his own aggrandizement. I offered so much more but because I was the emotional airbag, he didn’t take too much account into any of my real attributes. Hell, he wasn’t even looking.
I will never involve myself with a separated man even if he’s been apart for over a decade. I will not involve myself with a divorced man unless there’s been a good deal of time and already a buffer relationshit. Not saying I won’t still be taken for a terrible ride but the same standards I had in my 20s and early 30s are back in place.
Being used and abused is the worst feeling, especially if the abuser is incapable of realizing the errors of their ways. Had I been younger, I wouldn’t have touched this separated Narc with a ten-foot-pole, but he got me at my most vulnerable, another blow to which only I can repair and move on.
Don’t do it ladies! I was in essence to what someone commented earlier, a “Divorce Clown.” The joke was certainly on me and I paid dearly for it. He may appear willing (and eager — wonder why?) and blow smoke up your bum, but the fact is men can be greedy, selfish pigs on a good day (never mind the Narcs who turn a buffet into a slaughterhouse).
I learned a lot of lessons but I think we sometimes tell ourselves this positive takeaway to explain or validate our experience(s). Truth is, I still don’t think I really needed this lesson and the more time goes by, the more sure I am of this hard truth. I didn’t need someone to be disrespectful, ungrateful, selfish and callous to my feelings (he lacks any shred of empathy so how could he consider my feelings). Sometimes we just get unlucky and sometimes we get lucky. We try to make sense of it but I think we do the best with what is offered.
The reason I say this is the separated Narcs brother met his now wife when he was newly separated. This woman has 4 children from a previous marriage and the grass did not grow under his feet to get the divorce from his wife finalized to marrying his now wife who had she followed our advice probably wouldn’t have given this man the time of day. So you see, it does happen. It happened right in front of me while I dated the brother who was the typical EUM we write about here. I got unlucky. She got lucky.
There’s really no rhyme or reason. People either show up with the best and deliver or they don’t. Some of us by hook or crook find ourselves with assclowns, while others who are far more ignorant land up with the princes we all hope for in the end.
Fair? Nope. I do the best I can but I am sick and tired of catering to the poor walking wounded when I’ve been impaled, speared, shark bit, burned, scalped, thrown down the well, and left for rats to gnaw on. Where’s the man who tenders my care and wounds? I’m supposed to walk on eggshells or accept crumbs and if I squawk, then I am too demanding.
The things these men will tell themselves in order to sleep at night is astonishing. They will do mental calisthenics to avoid any shred of personal responsibility. When I meet a man who can say, “You know I wanted this or did this and she wanted or did this and in the end we couldn’t make the relationship work…” then I might listen. But this horse manure of: “She’s psycho. She’s crazy. She’s this and that and the other and I’m just a victim of such feminine wily atrocities.” Yeah, that’s a FU.
Time isn’t the only consideration. Sadly, men have become so selfish and driven by their own agendas and desires, we are trampled on in their wake. The drama of the ex-wife, the financial responsibilities, the children, the sad but real fact of our being dead last on the priority list doesn’t leave much room for more than crumbs. I can’t see happiness in all that unless the man is willing to rise up and cherish the woman he’s with.
We have a society full of spoiled, entitled, selfish, bratty, A-Holes who aren’t much different than the PTD Narcissists. Not sure why we bother? Hope? Optimism in the face of reality where men are continually satisfied by 24-7 online porn that satisfies only their needs by the way and creates a disparaging standard for regular women to aspire to, online dating and texting crap where every woman is merely an object or a function, but real care, compassion and devotion is too much to bother with.
Why should they? Women are meal tickets (they now want to date/marry up) and a blow up doll. Until we women wise up and frankly accept the majority (not all but majority rules) of men are twisted, perverted, parasitic juvenile delinquents and stop making, accepting or even entertaining their sorry ass excuses, only then we’ll see a turn in the tide. Desperate women will accept the unacceptable, the intolerable and the nere do wells in the hopes of rescuing, saving and fixing these boys into men keep doing ourselves and society a disservice.
I think for a very brief time I was desperate, (ergo the separated Narc/EUM assclown) but never again. The damage is lasting if not permanent. It isn’t worth the pain, the disillusion, or the disappointment. People tell me to be open and optimistic. I was. Every single time I paid dearly.
Now? I’m far more discerning. I haven’t dated as much but at least when I have, it’s been dates and not FWB, watching DVDs and settling for crumbs. This from a grown ass man who pretends to be stupid when it suits but prides himself on being so smart otherwise. Uh-huh. Don’t ever think they don’t know what they are doing because they do and this is the most difficult and heartbreaking truth to accept.
I have to agree with you….I recently had a date with guy, who currently divorcing his wife…he told me on the first and only date, that his wife decided to divorce him after being with him for 20 years and 4 kids together, the yongest one only 4 years old! Strange really, his wife is not
scared to be alone with FOUR CHILDREN, amazing!!!! Do I want this man, of course NOT, he definitely not ready to meet anyone, 5 months of separation is not enough! Anyway it is very heavy “baggage” for me as I do not have kids and somehow I think he is too weak for me and he is not that appealing with all his life experiences…
I recognise the hurt and anger in your post and I totally relate. I also never considered dating a divorcee (with children) until this year (>35 years old, thought I should be more open minded and broaden my horizons). Well he wasn’t even divorced, was separated for under a year with no lawyer, no divorce in sight.
He’d mentioned a previous relationship after the separation and before me. He said that woman ended it because she couldn’t handle how much of a bitch his ex was/is … that can’t really be either what happened, or what he thinks unless he’s totally delusional! More likely she saw the whole unhealthy situation more clearly/ faster than I did.
I couldn’t understand why he’d have text message arguments with her at 6am. I asked him why he’d even engage with her at that level – non-child-emergency stuff, just flinging insults at each other. That’s not two people who are over each other.
I was sooooo desperate that I ignored the many huge red flags. I had my blinkers on and didn’t even realise he was still married at first (on his dating profile he was “single”). Yes I know how stupid I was.
Like you I finished it, but it doesn’t feel like a victory at all. It was only 6 weeks and I hardly saw him in the last 2-3 weeks but I was hopelessly hooked. So clingy and in need of love and affection.
The damage is proving to be long lasting in my case, too. That might sound crazy after such a brief period of dating, but I feel like I never want to date again EVER. I only attract assclowns anyway.
I’m torn between deciding what the assclown really understood about his own behaviour; whether it can be explained by his heartbroken and wounded [his eventual words] state, or whether he was just a major pig with excuses. Sometimes I wonder what he’s doing now – I expect he went back to one night stands.
I know I’m re-hashing what I’ve already written here but anyway. MRWriter, I understand exactly what you’re saying and your frustrations.
MaryW,
I do not understand why separated men think they are single it is mind boggling.
I have a friend who is five years separated with no divorce in sight despite what he says. What I can’t understand is why he walks around and calls himself single.
This guy is a friend and this friendship has been a great insight into a separated man’s life and it confirms my boundary that I will not date a man who is separated.
I guess I’m playing devil’s advocate here today! When my ex-husband and I separated we each met someone else within a couple of months. I was definitely done with my marriage and thought of myself as single. I eventually bought a house with the man I met and my exH is still married to and has a child with the woman he met back then. We didn’t get divorced for years (until he wanted to remarry) because we amicably worked out our child custody and financial issues and it just didn’t seem vital. In retrospect, I guess it was a bit casual of us but I don’t think being separated rather than divorced is always a giant red flag. As this article points out, there are people who have been divorced for years who may be less available for a r/s than someone who has mentally and emotionally moved on before signing a decree.
This is a fair point, FX, not everyone who’s recently separated or divorced is necessarily EUM or an assclown. I’m glad that you and your ex moved on happily and without hurting others (having “buffers” etc).
FX, your situation is unusual and pretty much the exception to the rule. The odds of someone getting involved with a newly divorced person and have this result are pretty low.
That said, there are other factors to look out for before ruling someone out. All of them pretty well spelled out on this blog and in Natalie’s books.
I’ve also heard claims from people who said they ended up married to the person they slept with on the first date. Yeah, sure, every once in a blue moon things line up perfectly, but I wouldn’t crapshoot my wellbeing on a low odds possibility.
I didn’t mean to imply everyone rode happily off into the sunset. We were all young. I think I was EU which is why I wanted out of my marriage and then left the other nice man with whom I owned the house. I was probably truly single for the first extended time in my life and still EU, many years later when I met the AC who brought me to BR.
From what my child tells me, her father and step-mother do not have an especially happy marriage. No AC stuff nor related to being divorced. Just the odds of life…
I will say that I think something my mother told me when I was younger is often true. Men who like to be married don’t remain single for long after the end of a marriage. This doesn’t mean they are all good marriage material but many of them may be as opposed to men who are serial monogomists who have never pulled the trigger. I never particularly wanted to be married and I don’t think I was particularly good at it! I have changed so much, though, that, perhaps, I would enjoy it and do a better job now. I also used to meet many more appealing men than I do now so it may be a moot point!
FX–that’s a good point about divorced guys often quickly wanting to get back into a marriage arrangement. Which has its own drawbacks,because you’re often dealing with someone who wants to be in a relationship for the sake of being in one and won’t always make good choices.
The bottom line for me, and I’m sure many here, is quality relationships. That’s my focus and priority.
Exactly!
Every single man who I have ever known in my entire life always said they wanted someone like me, but they never pursued women like me. Whatever they married, it wasn’t ever someone like me.
It’s all about timing.
Period.
This is why getting pregnant (the oldest trick in the book) is what so many women have resorted to.
This is why, if I were ever o not be married again, I would never ever in a million years date any man from my ethnic group (the men I have been talking about). But I suspect that all men are the same.
When we are older and THEY WILL NEED ME to be their launderer, emotional support, financial support (I will inherit millions one day), young-looking wife, guess what–
I won’t be there for them.
If I will be there at all…guess what I’ll be?
You guessed it, ladies:
An AC BITCH.
This article is amazing. I’m going through some tough time right now and it’s exactly what I needed to read. I’m dating this guy for almost 4 months now and we became really close. He is living the country now since his working contract is finished so we considered long distance relationship until he’ll try to get here once again. When we met he told me he was separated for a few months.Then I found out it was actually just weeks before she left and I and him met. Now he has only one month till he leaves to his own country, and suddenly he announces me out of the blue that his ex is coming. Actually he called her “my wife” which is factually true. She is coming to get her things moved back to her own country and that’s why she is now staying with him at his apartment for 10 days. He told me that and implied that we will not see each other during that time. NOt even for one night! This is the same guy who told me a few days ago he would want to have kids with me. I’m really torn, since I’d love to spend the rest of the month with him, but then again it seems to be that I was no more then a temporary distraction or something, and this feeling hurts so much. Donno what to do next…
Dear Kate, if he is separated from his wife, why does she have her things in his flat, and why will it take her 10 days to retrieve them? Sorry but it sound like you were his bit on the side while he was working away from home 🙁
Kate,
I agree with Mary W.
This guy is still very married. He really screwed with you. What an asshole!
Please stay away from this guy, as he made you his mistress. Uggggh!
Nailed it MRWriter. This mess with men was never only a personal issue . It has always been societal as well. Unless a man makes a conscious choice to be aware of the messages in out culture, see how they are wrong,transcend them and evolve this is what we are stuck with. So sad.
I dated two back to back married men. The first one ripped my heart out almost beyond repair and hoom here comes number two. It was fascinating that I needed to replay the tape once again. The second one was used to heal from the first (sick) I know. Both ended in a disaster. First one goes back, second one gets a divorce after I leave him , never tells me and now is screwing someone new. The someone new will most definately be the fbg but it still burns the same. I needed to learn this lesson twice and this time I did.
I don’t want to be in a relationship. It’s such a hassle and more than it’s worth. I’m just now getting over being ripped to shreds from the last one. I’m done.
I think I’m just cranky. I’m PMSing, have been working on a massive project for hours with no avail, just discovered I have dandruff for the first time today, am covered in graphite soot from aforementioned unsuccessful project, and I really want a fruit-roll-up and a friend with neither insight.
Funny but all the stories relate to my ex AC and guess what?? all his ex’s were psychos! He said that I was different etc etc and then pulled the same crap, being distant, online with ex’s including his ex psychos! He then went to being physically agressive, thank god I left him when I did but not soon enough, So be very careful when he talks about his ex’s as psychos or Narssists because when he is done, you will be the next narssist psycho ex!
Maeve
At least in my demographic, it’s definitely a post industrial thing. Young man who didn’t want to go to college or even finish high school came here in droves in the 60s to 70s. Their only role models were their older colleagues, who treated women like crap and were heavy drinkers. They made a good living and the drug/drinking scene was wild. Industry closes in the 80s, taking most supporting businesses with it including ranching, the railroad, etc. Those younger ones whose bodies still function because they didn’t get drunk daily leave and take their families with them. Those that as t this point are in their 40s or older, with zero education, their only job skills in an industry that no longer exists, addicted to alcohol, maybe drugs are stuck. Anywhere else they go in the region is going to be too expensive with the growth of the rich people ski hills nearby or the wealthy couple enclaves in the former ranching towns to the south. What to do? Drink and drug more. The town currently has some of this “old guard”, the more ambitious of whom still hold a lot of political power. There is a large Hispanic community trapped in trailer parks, working slave labor jobs at the resorts downhill, then there is the yearly influx of us overedumacated racers, and us academics who still live in the town and try to improve things as we find stuff like domestic violence, falling apart housing, dead cars, hard core druggies, and mine waste a bit of a turnoff. We are also the folks that can contribute the most to needed charities, do most of the volunteer work, fix up our homes, clean up or restore our land. The old guard, which is also my local dating pool resentsus uppity women bbecause we avoid them and we also, being both educated and gainfully employed out earn them by a considerable margin. In some ways, I feel sorry for these dudes, in some ways I zero pity for them. Like myself, they could’ve gotten away from a bad culture and done the hard work, sacrificed, in order to get an education, better their lives. Instead they chosedrink, drugs, cheap sex (we actually had many prostitutes here), and the ski bum life instead. I had to leave a marriage andmy real home so I could be responsibly employed, pay my bills, provide for my own health care, save for retirement. These guys, my age group peers, could’ve done the same. Life is choices.
I agree with Lisa. This article does seem unfair and one-dimensional. Relationships do not work out because of the people in them, not because they’ve had a failed marriage.
Divorce IS complicated and getting involved with a divorcee will add some difficult and challenging aspects to a relationship. But that doesn’t mean that one cannot have a loving and healthily developing relationship with someone who is, for example, at the tail end of proceedings, trying to get things finalised.
Every person is different. Judge your relationship by the way your partner treats you, not by prejudicing him/her because it may get complicated and don’t freak out immediately because someone has a past. It CAN and DOES work.
xxx
oh no Kate, I’ve been in such similar circumstances that I wondered if it was the same guy!…If I could do it again I’d walk and not look back, it would have been a sure and more dignified way to know what I was really worth to him – I was swept up in talk of life and kids too. The longer you keep treading in those waters the more pain and loss of confidence in yourself, your own judgement, on the flipside… trust me, just under two years but I still feel pangs of sadness and remorse from time to time being reminded of him, which usually sends me into a low self esteem hangover and then here to Baggage Reclaim for comfort and consoling.
Look after yourself! because he certainly isn’t looking after you or your relationship by the sounds of it. Sadly damage is inevitable given the risky conditions with his ‘obligations’ (ie remaining entanglement) with his ex.
I feel your pain! Here’s to strong, lovely, considerate and truly available men. Real men!
I’m trying to walk away now. Have to stop myself “taping the fingers” so I would not make this call, do not return his emails. The pain is horrible, it’s not the loss of him but the big lie that drives me insane. Thanks for all the kind words!
Kate,
Hon, there is nothing to walk away from. This man is married and neglected to tell you the truth. He is a liar and user. I can be certain that the wife does not know of his relationship with you, as he is still with her.
Please don’t believe all men are this deceitful, as this guy is a special breed of creep!
Block and go NC immediately, or you will certainly be screwing yourself, and feel even lower, some months down the line!
Hugs
Kate, he’s an utter shit. Remember that when tempted to text/ call/ email; he does not deserve an iota of your time.
I know you’re hurt and angry – quite naturally.
The pain IS horrible, but it’ll get better. So sorry this happened. At least you’re not his poor wife X
My rules are:
Don’t date separated men
Don’t date men who aren’t at least a year out of their divorce.
However I met a guy who hadn’t got over his divorce after 20 years!. With widowers you can never get them to see past the dead wife who takes on sainthood status so they are a no go for me. My personal feelings are that men who end up single after many years have a rooster in the hen house mentality and like to bed as many women as possible to find what they want and ease their pain. They then screw themselves up and sadly others in the process. More fool those women who are willing to have such casual sex.
For myself it is a case of trust. I was deceived and cheated on. The cheating that I knew about was for the last 2.5 years of the marriage but the deceit was from way back. People say “but you had good times” but now I wonder if they were genuine as so much turned out to be a sham with a man who was a controlling, emotionally immature/unavailable, emotionally abusive and a Narc to boot along with other things. I am 3 years single in the jungle, 2 years divorced and the thought of a relationship now actually terrifies me thanks to the AC I have met along the way. It is easier to remain single and I have an age range of 6 years younger and 6 years older which may limit things but I am not desperate and don’t want to nurse maid an older man. If people are together a long time and one becomes ill that is different but taking on someone who is ill is not something I am willing to do.
I’m sorry Mary 🙁 it will pass, but I think you’re better off. You would be second to the other woman in his heart, you don’t want that. Also note, many EUMs use the “unicorn aka ex I can’t get over” excuse also. I dated someone for a year that used this excuse to go back to an ex he “wasn’t over” that he dated 11 years before me (yes, insanity) to then realize she wasn’t the reason and he really was the one with issues. My current ex now has pulled this line about me on a new gf, while he’s calling me saying he still loves and misses me and can’t stop thinking about me (mind you he never offered to change and fix us) and I feel sorry for the girl because he’s saying all of this stuff to me while being with her. Be happy, because he could have been doing the same. Don’t settle for anything but number one and only 🙂
MRWriter
I agree with much of what you say. I met my husband in ’92 and we were together for 12 good years. Lots of folks looked askance at our 28 year age difference but we did well. When I tried to date after we broke up, it was a completely different and very ugly world. Suddenly disappearing, stalking, attempting to rape a woman not attracted to you was A OK, and somehow, the woman’s fault. Immaturity is rife. I will no longer date men my age anymore. The AC was my age; lesson learned plus so many guys my age have small children and my parenting days are over. Men like my best friend, in his 70s, hold doors open for me, bring in firewood without being asked, help me on with my coat when we leave a restaurant. Try getting a 50 or younger to do those things. I do worry about having to nursemaid, so I avoid the outta shape guys; already am nursemaiding my dad because of his bad lifestyle, don’t need to repeat that lesson.
noquay, I know the pool of men where you are is different than my large city but there are many men in their 30s and 40s and even 20’s, like my daughter’s boyfriend, who have lovely manners. I’m in my early 50s but have mostly dated younger. The AC was 10 years younger and had absolutely beautiful manners. Unfortunately, he set the bar high in that regard but also lied as easily as he breathed. LOL The recent man I’ve been seeing (sweet and cute but not a great match in all ways) is 15 years younger and he, too, has the old school manners I expect. I also expect to feel taken care of by a man in other ways, and, without that, my desire would not be piqued regardless of any other qualities.
I think just like there are no hard and fast rules for how long it takes for someone to become emotionally available after the end of a relationship, there are also no age requirements for behaving like a gentleman.
Unfortunately, there are people of all ages – male and female – seem to have been raised by wolves no matter where you are!
@noquay and maeve: ladies you are singing my song lol! I have literally zero time, patience or libido to deal with bs! At 47 and living in the deep south as a democrat, arty, vegan it is getting really hard to feel like I am going to meet anyone. I feel so unattracted to most of the guys I meet my age because so many of them are arrogantly dealing with their post-divorce issues…or they are 70 pounds overweight with no hobbies. Oh well.
I wish that I just did not care at all to date but there is a part of me that is still getting out there. Hopefully I can keep hope alive:(
Hi Dancing,
I know your territory very well, too as I know Noquay’s. I’m in NJ, but I’ve been all over the US. You’re in Republican country. And, then you’re artsy and a vegan? They probably look at you as a Martian, as traditional as they are down there. Hahaha! Good luck, Sweetheart. I hope for your sake your possibilities are far better than mine, ’cause mine ain’t too good.
Tinker,
I thought I detected a North East attitude 🙂
Allison,
Is that so? Wish we were allowed to engage in how you detected that. Aren’t you in England? If not, where? Your comments and questions are always so direct. Like me.
Girl,
I’m across the river: Brooklyn!
Well girl, You’re onto something. Brooklyn is where I grew up until 12yrs old when my parents built a home in NJ. That is the only borough I can tolerate because it’s by hometown. Amazing!
Where in Brooklyn?
I’m way south: Sheepshead Bay.
Oh, I grew up in Bed-Stuy. It was bad then which is why my parents got us out of there. I def attribute a lot of my personality to having grown up in a place where there were The Bloods and The Crips, and really bad kids at school. You had to know how to fight or you were a sitting duck. I was never bullied, though.
I know Sheephead’s Bay. My sister lives in Flatbush right across the street from Prospect Park and the Brooklyn Botanical Gardens. Some areas are still so beautiful you think you’re in a different borough, but it’s still good ole Brooklyn.
I think the point is that until you’ve processed the relationship/marriage that ended (including your part in it) you are probably not fully ready to start something new. Seriously, you’re about to lay to bed a major life event and your focus is on whether I’m cute and what kind of food I like? How bout deal with your stuff… get yourself back and then begin something new.
Its like being unemployed and trying to date…. there’s enough on your plate that needs to be dealt with…. it affects everything… whether you think it does or not… denying that is like saying yeah we can go to this expensive restaurant n then not be able to pay your rent and its ok cuz that’s life. U have a choice. Choose to be the best you possible. Why are you in a rush to be with someone else with this huge thing going on?
But you are assuming everyone who gets divorced is traumatized bc of and during. Not true. Some of us became mentally divorced from the spouse years earlier. For us, the only issue is the hassle of waiting for and paying for the legal proceedings.
We shouldn’t paint w/ such broad strokes. And there are plenty of never-married people and people who have been divorced for decades who are jerks.
You have to evaluate people as individuals, based on how they treat you and how you observe them to be w/ others.
Lisa
My husband has only just moved out, but we were separated under the same roof for two years.
I am really far too busy to date, and very nervous about it too, but I feel that I have processed the failure of my marriage and a proper relationship would be possible for me.
I can see that some men would view my situation as very off putting, as my husband lives close by and we will continue to have a lot of contact because of our children who are still young. But that is the way it is and best for them.
It is my observation, though, that generally speaking men find it harder
to let go after divorce.
MrWriter,
My son is 19 and is an old fashioned gentleman, treats his lovely girlfriend well, knows he wants a good relationship, marriage and children, puts in effort and expects it back, thinks porn cheapens and interferes in relationships and that online dating is a load of rubbish. He accurately judged a couple of my exes with ” mum, he is a weirdo” or ” why are you letting him treat you like this” , both correct assessments.
So, ladies, have faith in the future generations. As far as now is concerned, in a face of what you quite accurately describe as an attitude of a vast number of leftover pool we meet, I think gotta keep going forward with a firm idea of what we want in a man and a relationship. Grace is right, belief is vital. From as long as I remember I focused on what I didn’t want but saw in my parents marriage and wanted to be strong and I independent ( unlike my mother ) with expectations to be disappointed in love. How true it came for me. I’m going to be thinking of what I want in a positive way, that’s all I can do. Everything else is trying to control the uncontrollable.
Sushi
Congratulations on bringing up your son so well. I fear I am not doing so well with mine.
I don’t want to write off the whole gender either.
Who knows what my future holds but I remain hopeful that it may include a loving relationship with a man. Call me an idiot but I still feel that is possible.
the guy who asked me out by txt was recently seperated & just.signing off on a divorce. not only did not reply due to txt but no way was I gunna b his yay im free to cut loose good time gal! ugh!
Dancingqueen
I too yearn for meaningful companionship, probably because having had zero functional family, practically from the get go and being in a place where my only friends are folks I work with and cannot really confide in, except for animal herd, I am horribly alone. I was in a great marriage for 12 years so I know what life SHOULD look like. I have to travel 100 miles one way to be with a man who is educated, well read, responsible, and takes care of himself. Hard when you teach full time and run a small farm and live where winter driving can be deadly. Your dudes sound like mine with the addition of being unemployed and uneducated. If I bail, let the bank just take the house, I will loose my retirement and be in serious poverty which doesn’t make me much of a dating prospect either. These dudes thenthink we aare evil picky bitches because we reject the even though they hate our values and lifestyle. Thisiswhine about wantiwanting to kill all need for human compcompanionship in myself or just shoot myse in the head and be done with it.
Noquay,
Hon, you sound as bleak as I feel. I’ve never lived out west but when you talk about your environment and the kinds of men that exist, I DO KNOW exactly what you’re talking about. You are totally out of your element. I’m an enormous lover of mountains, trees, beautiful land and a passionate lover of all animals. But, they’re not going to keep you warm at night. I’ve decided what will help me a lot is to own a little dog. I’ve always lived with one as a child and I think it would definitely fill some of the void for me. And, the dog won’t break my heart.
I wish the best for you and hope that once you retire you will relocate and put into place all the things in your life that you are missing now.
The women I know take a hell bent pride in outing players and telling other women about them in the social club and dining club I am in. The flip side is that these players then have a string of women at their beck and call as if it somehow enhances their desirability. But these women were what would be known as slags opening their legs to any offer. The latest line that got busted was I’m shy yet this man could flirt, tease and was able to ask women up to dance at a dinner dance. Yeh pull the other one Romeo it plays Jingle Bells now… I don’t think!I never believed this man was shy and so it came to pass. Most of the women I know also think that many men are pathetic, spineless specimens who lack manners and don’t have the balls to face up to their responsibilities and don’t know how to treat women well. No great loss then ladies and the ones who do take up with these men are the ones who have low boundaries that are easily busted. I will maintain my boundaries rather than accept any desperate, broken man that comes my way and remain happily single without all the drama and shit they bring. As I a not always in work I have other priorities and no doubt some men would think me a likely gold digger which I’m not being self sufficient. More men these days are gold diggers methinks as I’ve heard comments about them wanting to meet a wealthy woman and not all were in jest. Sisters are doing it for themselves and I have had great companionship with other women. As for sex with a man well most don’t know their way round a woman’s body with sat nav and are too selfish to learn so they can keep jacking off to their porn if that keeps them off my radar. Attitudes have changed though and many men are very disparaging about women seeing them as little more than sexual objects especially with on-line dating. This really shocked me when I divorced and it ain’t a world I want to participate in now. There may be a worthwhile man who has lost out on a woman who is honest, caring, giving, reliable, loyal etc. and I’ll keep those attributes to be good to myself these days. My head rules my heart so that my BS radar remains fully engaged now.
It is very true as Lisa said, we should look at people as individuals and not paint with such broad strokes. But most everything Mr. Writer says I feel is true also. Hoping to find, “Mr. Right” is daunting to say the least. It seems no matter what or how good it looks initially, they just HAVE TO have some serious unacceptable quality that makes it a deal breaker. WHY IS THAT? And, the lies! Married men who play around, separated, etc. will lie to you until the cows come home. And yet they never see what they’ve done wrong. No. When it ends, you were the worst bitch on the planet. You were fine for them when you were accepting their shit, but when you’ve had enough and call it off, they can’t find words evil enough to call you.
Now that I’m really accepting the end of my relationship with someone who was a good man but just couldn’t really love me, I’m left with feelings that fluctuate between bitterness and ambivalence. I just don’t want to talk to or see him anymore. At first I was just telling myself this, but now I’m really feeling this way. Now that I’m trying to shed those loving feelings I’m asking myself more questions about how I ignored a big factor with him. Not one, not two, but three marriages! Instead of my usual behavior of asking what was/is wrong with me, I have to accept that there is something wrong with him. My daughter told me that probably as a young man and beyond he never learned how to love a woman in a manner that she could feel satisfied. Let’s face it. It’s unlikely that all three were deadbeats. The only excuse he ever gave me for those marriages going bust was, “They didn’t appreciate me”. I always thought that was an ambiguous statement, but I never pressed further because I felt that the way he treated ME was so good that it didn’t matter. I think I realize now that his feelings run only so deep. He can be a great friend, but as far as lover is concerned he doesn’t have it in him. The ED certainly clouded the picture too because I attributed so much of his behavior to that issue. Yet, at the same time, I always felt that if he loved me as I loved him he would have been willing to make more effort with sharing affection, and not just cut it off altogether. How can you be so cavalier if you really love me?
Anyway, now, at my age (like Noquay said) the only options I have are those men who have been divorced. I know my love life has definitely come to an end, (tears forming now) because I just can’t go through the hurt and pain and disappointment anymore. That REALLY WAS the last chance saloon. A whole year. I will never understand how he couldn’t love me as deeply as I loved him. Even though I know it is a bona fide problem that he had before he met me, and in spite of what my daughter said, I still can’t make sense of it. We were so right for each other.
So now, I’m trying to learn to love myself, BY MYSELF, and not depend on someday sharing my life with someone who adores me. It is not going to happen so I have to condition myself to get to that point where I really and truly don’t care. This is going to be a huge process for me because I’ve never been happy being alone. But I have to learn how to be because I have no choice. My best friend is getting married next year, and another acquaintance who met a guy on line is having a whirlwind of a time in which he takes her on trips all over the world. And she’s in her 70’s! A fiercely independent woman who doesn’t care if she has a man or not, and look what she gets. It’s not fair. Why couldn’t that be me? I deserve the same. But I’ve come to the conclusion that luck does have a lot to do with whether or not the two of you find each other. And,, for myself, as long as I want a man so much he will remain out of reach. My friends are either with a man and happy or without one and happy. Maybe if I was constantly seeing examples of bad marriages and hearing oodles of complaints, I wouldn’t want a man. And, maybe if my husband who died had been a SOB I wouldn’t want a man. BUT I DO!!! Supposedly, prayer changes things. So my prayer is for a heart that can never love a man ever again, so that if he never comes along, it won’t matter to me anyway. I just won’t care.
Tinker,
What is this talk!
You are not going to be alone! I know you are terribly hurt and things look bleak, but you’re an amazing woman, who has a great deal to offer the right person. Be patient, he will come when you are emotionally ready to accept him.
You deserve to be happy, and you will find someone who compliments your incredible self!
Big hug!
I’m so sorry Tinkerbell that you are feeling like this now. I know we both had high hopes for our blossoming relationships and I’ve read your posts and feel your hurt. I’m sending a ((hug)) Remember, though, that this will pass. Happiness is transient as is sadness. Hold all of the moments. Your time will come again.. You sound so low I wanted to offer you a torch so you can shine the light back on yourself for the wonderful woman you are. BR needs your honest wise insightful self. Take some deep breaths and remember all those images in your head of the supposedly wonderful time everyone else seems to be having are just your visions. the truth might be very different. I asked my man the other day if I could put a picture of him on Facebook and he looked through the ones I was proposing and he chose one where he looked terrible, letting it all hang out, face relaxed, you know the thing. I protested and he said oh you want to put a fake Facebook picture up…just like everyone else!! LOL. I didn’t bother as I was laughing so much at the ridiculousness of what I was doing. but you know it illustrates the point, the truth is out there. Hope you feel better today.
Tinks
A big hug from me too.
You are down at the moment but it will pass.I want to reply in more depth but i’m too busy at the moment.
Thinking of you x
Oh, Tink! You are so down today! Is it something in the air…?…the time of year….? I’ve been incredibly down lately, too.
In my view, you have every reason to know that love IS out there. You HAD it once…you’ll have it again. You have the advantage of knowing what it looks like!
I am reminded of the old joke “Doctor, it hurts when I do this!” and the doc says “Well, stop doing that!” For you, it hurts when you put blinders on. Well, you’re now telling yourself to stop putting blinders on!
To use an agricultural metaphor – right now, the ground lays fallow, which is the natural course of things. Nothing grows while fallow, but better times are ahead.
I don’t buy into the belief that love only comes to the beautiful and the young.
Just ride with the mood, Tink. Do comforting things. I am very lonely, too. I feel simpatico with you, even when we disagree. I envision living like the “Golden Girls” in my old age…I’m keeping you in mind for one of the troupe!
Thank you my BR buddies, Allison, the seamstress, Tanzanite and Elgie. It really helps to have the support even if it’s only via BR. It really means a lot to me. We’re all are more or less in similar situations. The paths may be different but the ending is the same. Right now, I feel like I will never be less in love with him. You would think I would be able to just tell myself, “Look girl, if he is unable to feel the same for you, to the same degree, forget his ass!” It just isn’t that easy. And nobody knows it more than all you BR ladies. It’s so helpful to have this outlet and not have to keep our feelings pent up because we can’t talk to anyone and everyone about them. I will be VERY, VERY GLAD when this sadness has passed. My therapist told me on my last visit to make a list of things that soothe me. I was surprised to come up with 11 things. I should post it around my home so I can remember to do them. I am a very strong person when it comes to self preservation and not getting involved in activities or people who are not good for me. That’s why I feel so blindsided. I just have to keep reminding myself that I did all I could and I am not the problem. It’s the kind of man he is and that is to going to change. He meant well, but was not able to give back to me with any semblance of equanimity. I’m even thinking that it probably never would have worked out for one reason or the other. The ED situation was perfect for him to disentangle himself. But, I’ve come to the conclusion that if it hadn’t been that, it would have been something. I still wanted him. And it still wasn’t enough. Believe me ladies, this is worse than harboring anger after being duped by an AC.
Tinkerbell, I’m so sorry about all that. Guys like that are more deceptive, largely because they’re deceiving themselves. And…he’s not an AC–but he’s emotionally unavailable.
So–besides the 3 failed marriages red flag-what are some other things you see now that you might’ve ignored?
Maeve,
You’re exactly right. He’s EU. I’m sure if I told him that he would look at me like I had two heads. Not a clue.
((HUGS))
Digs,
Thanks so very much!
Tinkerbell
Are we all having some kind of midlife crisis in BR land? What you feel is natural, you are still in love and the thought of meeting someone else is strange, even offensive.
I go to several churches and thereby know at least three dozen women who’ve never married (probably never had sex), divorced and didn’t remarry or are widowed and didn’t remarry. They’re no different to the married women in terms of “quality”. There are simply a lot more women in church than men. I reconciled myself to the likelihood of remaining single a while back, and will likely have to again.
I don’t think you wanting a man is less likely to make it happen. God is not that perverse. If you look around, there are gazillions of people partnered up. I’m sure a lot of them wanted it. It is a normal desire not to be ashamed of.
I can’t say if you will meet someone else or not, I don’t think that’s what you need to be concerned with right now. If seeing him makes you unhappier, then take a break from it. Do you go to the same church? You may want to consider a different one for a while. Then see how you feel, you don’t have to lock yourself down forever right at this moment.
Grace,
I’m a tad better today. Just came in from church which is always uplifting. To answer you’re question, no he goes to a different one. We don’t care for each other’s churches. Mine is very large, we have about 5 different choirs and about 12 different ministeries. It is new and modern, (< 3yrs old) as it was built over after the old one was demolished. The congregation is terrific. Very friendly loving people. His church is the opposite, very small, impersonal, a dry unimaginative pastor, no choirs and an uninspiring service every Sunday.
So we don't routinely go to each other's church.
So, anyway, I am praying fervently every day for The Lord to change my heart and turn it away from him. It's working, whether it's God or me, I don't know. But I'm happy with the results. I keep reminding myself that I have survived and conquered much worse situations than this. Funny, the guest pastor said something that struck a chord with me this morning. He said, "You single ladies wonder why you haven't married, yet? It's because god has found the right one for you yet." Of course, that statement can be take with a huge grain of salt but it's something to give us hope.
Grace, I sense that you are a very private person and don't like to reveal too much about yourself. But, what is happening with you and "your guy". Have you agreed to be friends and do you see him as much as before? I wonder, because at one point our relationships were running neck and neck, and now mine is for the most part dead, and yours has been floundering.
I am such an emotional person. I realize that for me it has to be all or nothing. I can't be his friend. It makes me feeling like bought a dozen eggs and only ended up with 11. At least I know what works best for me.
I wish the best for you and wish it could work. It seems such a shame that both of us should strike out. But, thank God, luck and life are transient. Hopefully better days are in store for us both.
Meant to say He hasn’t found the right one for you, yet.
Noquay. Please forgive my ignorance in advance. I’m just wondering is needing to move for work the ONLY reason yr marriage ended? I ask as it sounds as if otherwise ex hubby was in many ways yr ideal match. Am I following tht right?
Noquay,
I was wondering the very same thing. You say you had to leave to make a better living. Well, you were married to this man. The whole concept of a marriage is that the two of you pool your resources and work together. If you were compatible, why would you leave?
May I just debunk the idea tht never married or in a long term r.ship means something wrong w a person? I’m 44 & stayed singled deliberately 12 yrs until my early 30’s to raise my son. After tht, been very busy working 2, sometimes 3 jobs, 7 days a wk to pay my mortgage (now done, yay) PLUS studying. Longest r.ship in tht time was 9 mths. No time to dick abt so always bailed on time wasters 😉
Mymble,
Thank you. I am lucky that my kids learnt positive lessons from the few assclowns I paraded through my life in front of them rather than negative ones, they have been BR-red in the last three years along side with me with great effects. They have their own responsibilities too, it’s not just us how they turn out. I’m with you, positive despite the evidence. MRWriter is right, it’s not good out there, but ultimately all we can do is push forward and make our world how we want it to be and I can’t do it without being positive. Why not expect something good ? i dont think i’m naive or in denial. There are very good things in my life despite no relationship. I know I’m not alone and there are good people out there. Just look at all you great people on this site, they are not just women.
Yes Mymble,
I was thinking the same thing yesterday how many good caring people women and men are on BR. It makes you feel that this is a “safe” place to be YOU and you’re not just talking to the walls.
I agree with posters who say that freshly divorced/ separated people should be assessed on their behaviour/ attitudes rather than on length of time passed since separation. Going through discovery stage without falling into fantasy and florencing, not ignoring flags and paying attention to your gut is vital. Also not feeling desperate to be in a relationship will be a must, cos that will cloud the judgement. Plus healthy-ish self esteem. Easy, right:) ?
Tink,
We need a group hug for you !
Nobody is anybody’s last chance saloon, it’s simply not true.
I like it so much how someone on this thread used the word expect. Great word, why wouldn’t you expect for this man to love you as much as you love him? But he didn’t and the reason is his alone, that’s the bottom line. You have this huge disappointment now and it will pass. It’s your broken heart talking, your daughter is right about him. You are wonderful and you won’t be alone. I don’t wear hats but if I’m wrong, I will buy one and eat it. Huge hugs for you x
Sushi,
Thank you so much. Yes, I need a group hug. I try so hard not to be so sad. I have a life that I’m happy with, devoted friends and a very tight family. I don’t know why I had to go and fall for him SO HARD. It’s the inability to understand him and myself that makes it so painful. But, all I can do is continue to work on ME which I am doing. You’re a dear. xx. Tink
Here’s a big hug from me ((((Tinkerbell)))
Lilly, Sweetie,
Thank you! How are things going? I’ve been so proud of you. You’re a real testament to determination and perseverance to attain a better life.
Hi Tink,
I’m still here hovering in the background! I’m not doing too well having fallen into a deep depression (because of the baby; not the AC), but I’m determined to get through it.There are good days and bad days and I’m trying. I’ve been following your story and have been quietly urging you on. There are better days ahead Tink, hugs, xxx.
Lilly,
Have you seen someone re. your depression?
Hi Allison,
Yes, I’ve been seeing a therapist. I’m afraid the whole saga with the AC brought me to my knees and I wasn’t as strong as I thought! It’s one day at a time right now, but I’m determined to beat this! Thank you for asking, xxx.
Oh Lilly,
You’ll get there. You’ve come a long way! We’re all rooting for you!!!!
Concerned about your depression, though.
Hugs!!!!
((HUGS)) Lilly. These things take time, so be patient with yourself. The last contact with the AC wasn’t that long ago, if I recall, so I’m sure you’re processing it. I think that, with depression, it takes repetitive action to combat it, the way you’re doing with your therapist. You might also want to look into vitamin supplementation (if you’re not into anti-depressants) for your moods. Just a thought. You’ll rise above this, my darling. *Smooches* I’ll say prayers for you (yes, with my potty mouth–which I’m workin’ on!–I also pray! ;))
Hi Rev,
As always you made me smile. I hope life is treating you well. I tried anti-depressants, but couldn’t cope with the awful side effects. I’m feeling battered emotionally and physically and I’m disappointed that I fell so far into the pit, but there is only one way out and that is up! I’ll give the vitamins a try, thanks for the tip. Take care and *smooches* and big hugs for you too, xxx.
MRWriter,
I’m getting muddled up in this issue. I don’t understand the difference between the responsibilities of marriage and responsibilities of being in a serious, loving relationship with love, care, trust and respect, looking to the future together and co-piloting in this direction. I get the act of marriage for reasons religious, legal ( inheritance, taxes) or for the kids so that they feel secure and have the same surname as both parents. I never, even in my twenties regarded it as the ultimate commitment. I was married to a gentleman and had subsequent relationships with assclowns who had excellent manners ,most of whom wanted to marry me. Not among them one single relationship with true care and trust and respect and intimacy. Funnily enough that is what I always wanted, just ignored bright red flags thinking I need to ‘earn’ real relationship, as was not good enough as I was.
So I just don’t know. I didn’t think I was an EUM, but I was by not rejecting people who were not giving me enough. Were you an EUM in your twenties? If I met a man now who wasn’t prepared to have as much responsibility in a relationship as in a marriage, but not necessarily doing the actual deed, I would flush, I would call him EUM. I feel you are absolutely right about having to practically sit on one’s flush handle for the amount of people who will not even move dust in order to have a relationship.
I think something we can all I agree is, the rule of when you meet someone “no ex contact if we are in a relationship”. I know that’s a firm rule because I make the healthy decision to leave exes in the past and out of RESPECT we should expect the same. If you can’t let an ex go and she comes before me, in other words, I can’t talk to my exes I can’t be with you, the answer if clear. You aren’t number one, NEXT 🙂
Any guy who is keeping a harem or exes around for an ego boost/options is definitely a flush. I can think of some examples though where someone may keep in touch with an ex where it may be innocent. I think it depends on the type of person we’re dealing with, really. We can tell when something doesn’t seem quite right. However, if we’re talking about an ex from long along and there no longer any romantic feelings present, I don’t see the need to demand a severing of all contact.
By way of example, I have a male friend who was friends with an ex from his early years of university–many, many years ago. She had married, and he became friendly with the husband as well over the years. They all kept in touch occasionally, there were no lingering feelings on either side.
When my friend started dating someone new, his girlfriend threatened to dump him when she heard about the fact that he kept in touch with this ex and her husband. So my friend promised to never speak to the ex or her husband again, though he was sad to do so, as he would have liked to at least send an email to see whether everything went well with the couple’s pregnancy. It was sad to see. My friend is a good, loyal guy, and his keeping in touch occasionally with these friends about life events was harmless. I think the manner in which it was decided was the most bothersome thing: it didn’t sound as though his girlfriend was willing to consider his perspective, she just had a blanket rule for herself that she insisted that he follow as well.
Answer is clear* – sorry autocorrect
Hi. I just wanted to include my own anecdotes as a divorced male still looking for a loving relationship. In response to MRwriter and the follow-on posts, I would like to say that I am an old fashioned sort of person. I have always believed in good manners, consideration, showing respect, building trust, showing appreciation, providing support, being reliable, on-time, and involved in my relationships. After reading BR I also realize I have been a people-pleaser with minimal boundaries and expectations that still were disappointed, and believed that this was due to failings on my part.
After reading scores of the articles here, I realize that I became involved with exceedingly selfish women that were more than willing to take what I was trying to offer and then blame me for not giving more.
I had a very limited dating-past because I was a ‘nice guy’ with all the negative connotations I now recognize. I tried to provide all the things women like MR complained about, only to find I was a doormat that couldn’t hold anyone’s respect or provide enough of a challenge to be interesting.
I started dating my wife when I was about 33. She was a couple of months older. We got married when we were 35-36,after 2 years of dating-engagement. I was laid off as an engineer about a year and a half after we were married, and after long discussions between ourselves and friends, decided to go to law school to start a new career. I was told all along that this would be supported and the necessary sacrifices made. After 4 years of school at night while working during the day and almost $90k of law school debt, I obtained a job at a major law firm. No sooner did I have the job than my wife wanted a new car, a new bigger house in the ‘right’ school district, etc. When I suggested we pay down our debt and save for our now 2 kids, I was told I was selfish, controlling, and only happy when I got things my way. At one point, my Ex made the statement that she was tired of deferring her life, and she had always done what she wanted and it worked out in the end. When I refused, she got a divorce lawyer and effectively took the money she wanted by force using no-fault divorce and liberal alimony/child support laws that only looked at my new lawyer salary to calculate what she was ‘entitled’ to. The proceedings went on for 2 years and cost 60-70k. She now makes 80k per year, gets 4,000 month from me, while living at home with her family in a $900,000 home on 3/4 of an acre.
Towards the end of the divorce, I met a woman that had the same commute as I did. We started dating while I was working as a lawyer. We would get together once or twice a week routinely for food and sex. We routinely went out to nice places, had good wine, enjoyed shows and movies together.
At one point after about 8 months, I found out that she went out on a date (i.e. – dinner, movie, drinks) with an ‘old friend.’ I told her I was upset and she allayed my concerns by saying it was someone she new for years and had no interest in, however I have never met this person. A couple of weeks later I realized it bothered me because I was in love with her and told her so. She told me she really liked me and enjoyed being together, but didn’t feel in love with me (Red Flag #1).
We spent holidays together and she told me how she looked forward to spending the new year together. Two months later we were supposed to get together on our usual Friday night date, but she said she had a friend’s party to go to but would only stay for one drink. I usually worked later into the evening, so texted her when I was finishing up so we could meet, to find out after being at the party an hour and a half that she was going to stay for one more drink. I went to the bar to discover her flirting with some guy she had met. (red flag #2) I sat down, introduced myself, at which point he left. She assured me that I was her boyfriend in front of her friends.
When I would go out with my friends I would send her texts/pics showing who I was with and what we were doing to build trust.
Some further occurrences of not replying to text/emails/call for a couple of days occurred over the next few months; always followed with some sort of vague explanation. Being stood-up and told she didn’t think we were definitely meeting, showed up 45 minutes late on my Birthday when I was cooking her dinner. Complaints by me as to the actions/treatment were countered with accusations of being jealous/needy/controlling. (red flag #3 – managing down expectations). Also never her fault, nor ever any an apology.
Was told again, when I asked about our relationship of 1+ years that she still didn’t love me and wasn’t sure that there was a future together. (red flag #4 – believe it when they tell you these things, also Assclown qualification: blowing hot/cold – controlling relationship, fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me; etc..).
A month later, another episode of her going out on a date with a “friend” on the sly (i.e. – no mention of meeting beforehand, drip-fed vague details when confronted) after a year and a half together led to me immediately breaking up with her.
Stayed broken up for 3+ weeks, but got back together because “we” missed each other. After 3 weeks back together, I was told her rule was she didn’t believe she needed to tell me who she was with or what she was doing because she didn’t love me and didn’t see a future together, but she really enjoyed the time we were spending together and wasn’t breaking up with me.
Immediate NC. Now over 2 months NC.
The point of all this is that decent guys that believe in what it take to have a worthwhile relationship do exist but can have it beaten out of them also.
Cyrano,
I’m very sorry to hear of your unsavory relationships with your ex-wife and your gf. Seems they were basically the same type of person, only interested in what they could get from you rather than mutual fulfillment. I’m glad you’ve found BR. I think it will help you a lot because you will learn about so many different types of individuals and if you’ve never come across them you can be forewarned. I hope you become more self protective. You seem like a very nice guy, eager to trust. There are so many characters who will take advantage of a good person whether they mean to or not doesn’t matter. It still hurts. Get wiser and stronger without losing your empathetic nature. All the best.
Thanks Tink, I appreciate it, and am very glad I found BR too. It has put a lot of what I was feeling and thinking into concrete terms. And like most here, shown that I wasn’t crazy. 🙂
Since I started reading I recognize they were the same, looking for different things, but entirely selfish at their core.
I’m sorry about your situation as well. It is unfortunate that by the time we realize something is amiss, we are at the point of being hurt.
The EUs may have something right; keep a couple of options so you don’t become too invested early on.
Hey Mr, Writer.
Women cannot be EUM the M stands for male. You mean simply EU. You bring up a point though, I never gave a thought about before. I don’t think we’re born EU, but it develops due to our relationship experiences. Any opinions on this?
Absolutely agree that EU isn’t inborn for majority of people. I think it starts with upbringing and family relationships, which leads to the choices we make in mates, and then from there blossoms into EU.
I think you’re right, Maeve. Our experiences in childhood influences our choices of partners later on. Of course!
Sushi,
I meant to say when I answered you earlier. My 17 yr old grandson is like your son, well-mannered, kind, caring and very loving to his Mom. He makes me believe that his generation will, hopefully, breed better men. Young people are exceedingly smart. When they see what we have been through or still going through they’re smart enough to know they don’t want the same. Let’s hope that the men and women of that generation and onward will have more caring and compassion for each other.
Teach
My ex was a wonderful man. I had to leave because I did controversial (read, cost folks in power money) environmental research. I couldn’t help pay the bills, save for retirement, because I lost my research appointment and I was being harassed to the point of some of it being life threatening for both me and ex. I loved where I lived, our very frugal but very sustainable lifestyle, a small but good leftie/enviro community and a man who truly respected who I was and what I did. He doesn’t blame me and continually reiterated to me that I truly had no other choice in the shiteload of turmoil and pain that followed. Sometimes doing the right thing is very, very, painful.
Teach
Forgot something; the ex did come west with me and absolutely hated it. He has family ties to our home region and family is very important to him. He really did try; again the mark of a man of quality.
Was I EUM in my 20s? I don’t think so at least not from a place of avoidance or issues but if I was it was from a place of wanting to experience and grow into myself. I moved to NYC at the age of 19 with only $300, no credit and not knowing anyone in the city. I did it. I secured an apartment on the Upper East Side, worked as an stage actress earning my Equity card as well as eventually working at the MoMA without a college education. Was I particularly lucky? I would actually say yes, I was incredibly lucky as well as young, brave and hopeful. I had dreams and ambitions that did not align with marriage or having kids. I was self-aware enough to appreciate and understand where I was in my journey. I thought I had time. Time to live, grow and become more of myself as a person, an artist and a woman with experience.
I was naive in many respects. I lost my virginity to a friend (not boyfriend) a month before going to NYC because I was convinced if I went to the Big Apple a virgin, I wouldn’t survive. A weird rationale to be sure and a funny one too, but I think I was ready to grow up not necessarily in a hurry, although this has a ring of truth, but I wanted to be free in most respects and yet, womanly and knowledgeable too.
I dated in NYC stockbrokers, actors, artists, company men, producers, activists, men, like me discovering themselves and men older than me who were more established in every respect. Those who went beyond the first initial dates were not jerks. At least not overly and I will maintain most of them were actually pretty good guys in all respects. They made time, they initiated contact, they took me out (and not all had the financial ability to wine & dine me which isn’t my standard of successful dating anyway), but they made an effort and asked questions and seemed fairly healthy emotionally and mentally.
I did not snatch one of these men up because I didn’t know that a decade later I would be dating men (who by and large seem similar on paper at least to the men I dated previous) who are intent on lowering my expectations, playing games, treating me like an option, not listening, not inquiring, not making any effort and yet still expecting (there’s that word again) my company, my ego-fluffing, my sex and my availability all without their contributing one (excuse my language) goddamn thing. Now, I thought I was unlucky for a while. I thought it must be ME! I did dream boards, I read The Secret, I went to Edgar Cayce meetings, I read self-help books, I listened to Wayne Dyer DVDs, I kept myself a cool 105 lbs (due more to a speedy metabolism than diet — sorry ladies) at 5’6 and while I don’t dress provocatively, I ain’t a nun either. I studied Tantra, read and wrote a thesis on the Kama Sutra and Sanskrit dramas, I educated and earned my degree, I work, I have maintained the same residence in a high-rent neighborhood in LA, I drive a Civic because it’s in great shape and don’t need a BMW to prove myself to anyone, and I think for all my efforts when I still run into AC/EUM men over and over you get to a point as I have where I’m not the one with the fucking problem. Therapy, if anything, keeps proving my initial instincts correct as I am not clingy, open-minded, willing to date men of all types, shapes and er…sizes and financial backgrounds. I’m not looking for a Daddy. I got one and while he wasn’t perfect, he is a good and decent man to me and my mother. I was raised with values. I contribute financially without proving “I Can!” but from a modern reciprocal sensibility. I listen and ask questions beyond the superficial. My life is far more active now then it was 5 years ago due to my career. I’m a professional, paid writer and publicist. I’m a theater critic. I am still aspiring and moving forward in my career and while I don’t have much monetarily (which I admit without shame) I’m not a snob, a bitch, mean spirited, or mentally unhinged person. And yet, I am invisible to men.
My longest relationships were in my 20s when you could accuse me of soul-searching, taking risks, and yes, possibly being EUM in that I lived for me. I made that choice and it was one I contemplated. I could’ve stayed in Texas, gone to college, gotten married and lived pretty much where I grew up. That wasn’t my path anymore than I have the capability for quantum mechanics. I wasn’t running away, I was running towards myself in the horizon. The woman I wanted to be ultimately, who has lived, loved, been cosmopolitan but can still ride a horse bareback and be a good shot with a pistol or a rifle. I drink, I smoke, I eat red meat. Putting on airs doesn’t do much for me nor do I appreciate it in others. I think for the most part, I’m pretty okie-doke.
So what changed here folks? I keep asking those closest to me, “Do I give off some ill impressions?” “Am I guarded?” “Am I obviously wounded?” “Am I not pretty enough?” “What is it that makes me a seeming target for AC/EUM behavior?” And no one including my therapist has an answer for it.
I got a serious problem with that. I’m not saying ALL MEN are fuckers. That would be a sweeping generalization and unfair to the good men who are out there doing right by their dependents. I am saying that unfortunately, men in general are operating from a very different mindset than they were 10-15 years ago. Whenever I try to change my behavior to allow this brave new world of dating and courtship, I, me, myself alone get burned every damn time. Whenever I keep my values, boundaries and standards in check, oh yes, Natalie would be cheering me on as I body slam their sorry asses on the curb like yesterday’s news but over and over and over again does do damage to a person, let alone a woman’s psyche. I’m not being too hard or too strict or too demanding or too anything. And yes, I feel like as much as I adore, love and admire Natalie and take her advice to heart, there’s this doublespeak that infuriates me. I cannot win or succeed if I do the right thing out of the gate and drop these lousy men when they show me their ass at hello because I then get accused of “Well, are you really giving them a chance? Are you being too guarded? Are you, are you…? And then I have to say, “Look here, this is what they did XYZ, no emotion, no attachment, just the facts maam.” And then it’s like “Oh, well, you dodged a bullet then because he’s a jerk.”
Awesome. Thumbs up. As I don’t date for months on end. AC – chuck, EUM – chuck, AC/EUM/Narc – chuck. Years truck by of this and whenever I finally relax my boundaries, my standards by virtue of doing the same cycle over and over again, then I get told, “Well, you should’n’t have ignored those red flags. You should’ve maintained your boundaries. You should this and you should that…” You don’t think that isn’t going to have a splintering effect over time?
I know normal. I experienced it when men still behaved with the knowledge of “I have to bring something to the table to endear this woman to me at all, be it sex, company, a commitment, etc. Men aren’t by and large holding to that same truth anymore. At least, not by my experience and I keep seeking it out and only get “You’re pretty good…but I may be able to do better. If you skip to MY beat woman, then maybe I will acquiesce to a relationship solely on MY terms, MY prerogative, MY selfishness and not give you a thought.”
They play the stupid card when it suits. You’re telling me a 46-year-old man with a son doesn’t “know” he should take a woman he’s interested out to dinner? She can take him out, they can split the check and what all, but a grown man of 46 who is otherwise educated, literate and has lived on this planet, not on an island, is okay with not properly dating or wooing a woman nor makes any attempts at even trying and when his sorry ass gets called out he defends it by saying, “Well, I’m not good at courtship. You have to lead me by the nose.”
What has happened? I sincerely doubt 10-15 years ago he acted in the same manner. He may have still been overly cheap, selfish and withholding, but he knew then when the mores were different that a man has to uphold certain aspects in the dating ritual bargain.
Not saying he was a prince then and an ass now, but the dating mores and social rules have so relaxed that men in general are taking advantage of a woman’s goodwill, frustration and our desire to prove ourselves to NOT BE GOLD DIGGERS that I see more and more women courting men in the way men used to court women (and these men are loving it!).
Case in point. I’ve noticed a trickle effect over the years at restaurants where the check used to land squarely in front of the man, but over time, that black case started landing in the middle of the table. Lately, for the last 2 years, I’ve noticed the check keeps being placed in front of me. The woman. I have paid attention to this and even note the gender of the server: more time than not they are young and male. Women servers tend to put that check in the middle. God bless them. I have squawked about this and been patted condescendingly on the head. “You’re looking for it.” FU! I see it. It is a fact, not an emotion, not a perception but a damn standing fact. My mother and father in Texas laugh. “Must be an LA thing.” Really? I doubt it. I keep being told I’m Cassandra when I see what I see. So about two months ago my Mom calls me and she has a weird lilt to her voice. She is 68. My father is 67. They have a shared bank account so who pays is never really in question. Read this and read the following well. My Mom said she now agrees with what I have been describing concerning the check as she and my Dad went to their favorite restaurant (they have been loyal patrons for years) and the server (who has waited on them before) put the check directly in front of her. She thought it was odd but let it go. My father noticed it and said, “Hey, this is what our daughter keeps complaining about.” My Mom lets this go until a week later she and my Dad are at another restaurant, one a lot of daters go to, in Texas, Arlington to be ever precise and the check isn’t placed in the middle but in front of her. The server: a young, (pimply–her words) male. Dad and her find this weird. The following week, they are at another fine dining establishment and the same exact thing happens and this time my Dad speaks up. “Why did you put the check in front of her?” The server looks confused and picks up the check and puts it my Dad’s hands who says, “No, no, we’re married, clearly and that isn’t my question. Why did you put the check in front of the woman?” His answer. “Most women pay for dinners nowadays.” My Dad looks at my Mom and says, “OMG, Shelley is right. And it’s happening here.”
I seize on this story like a drowning rat! I’m angry! I come back, “See! See! I told you! I’ve been saying this for years and no wants to listen. Not even you two.” Mom in all her patience comes back, “We have been listening because we wouldn’t have noticed it like we did. I’m so sorry.” Now Dad tells the server when they ask for the check to deliver it to him, not because it matters but because he’s now trying to dispel this awful new subtle dating practice. He believes me while validating, doesn’t change the environs of which I am in.
This is a man who buys roses for my Mom whenever he can, not because he’s a doormat or a pushover, but because he know how much she appreciates them and how his own daughter receives so few. He cannot understand it anymore I can. And when I do, it’s done in a passive aggressive attempt whereby I’m only allowed to take on rose from the dozen while the rest stays at his place and he takes photos of them on his cell phone in full bloom. Nice huh?
As to the check. I had dinner with a famous comedian 2 months back as I gave his show, ironically about the reciprocal nature of relationships, a good review. We went to the Cheesecake Factory in Pasadena before his stand up gig. This is a well-known somewhat celebrity with movies etc under his belt. My point: he is recognizable. Instantly. We have appetizers and what not. The server, a young male, puts the check in front of me. The man I am with is a celebrity, twice my age, and the check is placed directly where my dinner plate had been. Comedian furrows his brow, grabs it and says, “Why did he do that? That’s weird.” I proceeded to tell him as he paid the bill, it is commonplace now. He doesn’t believe me. He’s in his early 60s. Shame too as he’s looking to turn his Broadway show into a TV series and probably would’ve done well to have me on his creative team given my experiences with dating. His loss but I felt a slight sense of vindication.
Anyone here want to keep on telling me that I’m losing my mind? Go to it but it is these little nuances I keep seeing and I’m not the one asking for the check, holding a credit card out or making any grand overtures on paying and yet, the check is placed in front of me by the young, smug male.
You can all say, “MR (my initials–I was doomed to be a feminist) “you’re making too big of a deal about this.” Am I? Maybe I am but when I’m with a man twice my age of some fame status at a major chain restaurant and the check falls in front of me, I have to wonder, ladies, what the what now (as Natalie so aptly puts). I’m not imagining this. “Well, MR, us women are now equal. In fact, I like it because it tells a man I don’t need him or his money and I can take care of myself on my own, thank you very much.” Bully for you liberal minded femmes.
Me? Sure, I don’t mind paying my fair share either but this subtle yet telling action is indicative of a bigger picture. Men are taking us for a ride and we are letting them. Hell, even the servers know this and their behaviors reflect this attitude.
My point in all of this is men are not interested in contributing, stepping up, putting their money where their heart is (if it’s anywhere), acting like men let alone gentleman, and they aren’t considering “What do I have to offer this woman sitting in front of me?” Nope. They by virtue of just having sprung up from the ground yesterday act as though they are entitled to our time, energy, compassion, sex, money and what all without any giving on their part in any real or significant way. When a man treats me, be it a friend, colleague, lover, etc., I thank them, profusely now as it really is a surprise. I am not ungrateful or a princess mentality. And yet, the only men who seem to comport themselves like men used to are in the 60 + category. I have yet to find the same sense of responsibility, care, respect, generosity in men 55 and below. You tell me it’s me being EUM and I say, NO! Somewhere along the way in the last decade between online dating, easy (and lazy) communication, social media, online porn and this sex for sex sake mentality, men have given over to their baser natures and we women are allowing it because after awhile, being alone too much is by itself unhealthy and intimacy of the sort I bitch about cannot be experienced platonically. It isn’t the same. I should be dating and having fun like I did in my 20s and weeding out the temporary from the lasting. I should be courted with some measure of initiative on the side of the male and expect, yes, you’re right, expect him to contribute something to our relationship that builds trust, compassion, personal knowledge and a sense of communion be it physical or emotional or hell, both, in a manner befitting two mature, grownup human beings. Is that too much to ask? I dated like that when I was young, inexperienced and yes, I had some knocks on the chin but not in the swiftest and blatant and unfeeling fashion I have run across the last few years. Not out of the gate. Was I really just lucky? In NYC? In LA? I cannot accept somehow I missed the AC/EUM ferry only to ride it when I am more desirable, more knowledgeable, more self-aware, more sexually experienced (hard won too), more educated, more everything and receiving less and less year after year until yes, I feel as though I am going mental. A) Because no one is hearing me! B) When they do, it is long after I keep holding myself in check or scrutiny that I am the common denominator. C) No matter what I do and am I out more than I have ever been my entire life, I am ignored, invisible, unseen, unheard, unappreciated, under valued and told to rise to some impossible standard but oh, no, the men cannot abide by having any standard to rise up to on their end. D) And then I’m “bitter.”
Now, I’ve cracked up. I’ve lost the thread of reality and of common courtesy and decency. I know which way is up and which way is down but therapy, Natalie’s advice, reading from the women in the trenches on here who are clearly smart, capable, emotional, sexy human beings (I have a gift for subtext) who my god, the majority of you ladies make me look bad, okay, you just do. I applaud every woman on here with children or a child, I applaud the successful women who have a home, have savings and a nice car and you are telling me horror stories to make me weep because at least I can say on my end I am attractive, intelligent, funny (yes, I can be), and a pretty good catch in the ocean of jellyfish and sharks but am I up to the same snuff as most of you who have worse to say about the relationships you are in. NO! Hell no! I’m not putting myself down but I read here even when I don’t comment, and I am amazed at the self-awareness, the work, the emotional maturity and I’ve done my investigation via facebook up there on the upper right and I wouldn’t kick most of you out of bed and I’m not down with being a lesbian so what the hell is happening? I cannot understand it and I know, due to my writing fast and long, and ranting and raving I hurt the intent of my missives, but damn, ladies, you shouldn’t be contemplating a life alone if it means being with an AC/EUM/Narc. These are our only choices? A good man is akin to playing the lottery?
I read here and on The Path Forward forum about women who go from one jerk to the next and keep trying to figure out their shit in the process, and yes, we’re a lot wiser now, but I throw down a challenge that most of us would be in perfectly normal relationships right now if men weren’t such assholes by and large. There are the few of us who date on the superficial (looks, money, etc.) but given what I read they are a small minority, even smaller are the ones who are chasing after the bad boys. Okay, you gals, you get what you deserve no offense, but for all the rest of us trying to find a man within an appropriate age range and geography who is available (i.e. not married or otherwise taken) are throwing ourselves against this brick wall and then being blamed for “our lack of boundaries, our EUM-ness, etc.) If I was an EUM in my 20s it was with good cause. I wasn’t a bitch about it. I didn’t lead men on. I didn’t play games. I was hurt. I learned through every relationship but so too did the men I was with and there was a sense of remorse on their end the likes I don’t see now. There was care and compassion and simple rules of dating I could apply. Explain the new rules to me because I’m stumbling in the dark. All I see is men who want it all but don’t have the capacity, the foresight, the inclination to rise above their baser instincts and expect me to carry EVERYTHING on my back while they enjoy the spoils like spoiled little brats. I blame the parents who clearly by their own example fail these men, I blame society and I do blame us as we confused the gender issue with this “We Can!” attitude until the men got wise and said, “Great! You can and I won’t. Go to it.” We are battling a narcissism of our times and a “selfie” attitude. We take pictures of ourselves, arms extended and share it to the entire world as if it means a thing. We tweet witticisms and personal thoughts as if our momentary reflection means anything to our followers. We confuse real friendships with Likes. We enter the online dating world hoping to be the exception of the rule like so many urban legends and true tales to the contrary. Online dating is a breeding ground of AC/EUM men but we relent because the times have changed and we must adapt to it. Every woman become the sole and all being essence of a profile and a head(mug)shot. Men don’t have to be burdened with meeting a woman anymore as they are on display with their age range, their likes and dislikes and BS front and center for them to do the perusing (targeting in most cases). I am in no position to even entertain the online dating war.
Then we have men beating off whenever they please to online porn so readily and discreetly available. You tell me that isn’t changing them over time? They can see whatever their proclivities allow with a push of a mouse. Suddenly, blow jobs are the norm and other such intimacies afforded to men in personal relationships bestowed on them at hello because women have to be competitive, they have to have that edge to keep them in the game. Whenever the men are fewer than the women, sexual and other mores are relaxed. Look it up if you don’t believe me. Whenever men outnumber the women, sexual mores are thus restricted. Men have to behave and comport themselves in order to find a mate but when it is the reverse, they can be selfish pigs because they know (instinctively or through experience) women will cater to them in order to have a man at all. The census in most major metropolitan cities does not include the gay men into their numbers. LA looks pretty even steven but it is not. There are plenty of single men, but they are gay, and not part of the dating pool then for women. No one wants to talk about that. I have nothing against gay men, but they do distort the actual numbers of real, single, available men to single, available women.
C’mon, let’s be honest. Most of us women doubtfully would be on here if the men we had been involved with had at least met the barest of minimums. Natalie can say “That there is the first problem” and I will agree up to a point. I think most of us women, like me are open to meeting a man who is friendly, knowledgeable about the world or certain subjects, in relative good health, has stability in his personal life (i.e. a job, a residence, etc) and is attractive enough for us to get naked with. Bonus points if he has similar beliefs, political views, and shares our interests. I see a lot of ugly men who cannot be bothered to wear slacks at the opera (they wear jeans) with a good-looking woman in a black dress on their arm. I see it all the time. If I see it so too do the men and they start thinking in terms of “Better than…” all while wearing jeans at the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion. I asked a married woman about this phenomena and she said even her own husband (in his mid 50s) cannot be bothered with putting on a suit let alone nice slacks and a button down shirt. She said, “I have to pick my battles with him to even go somewhere like the opera (she can nab free tickets like me so $ is not an issue) and if we went, he’d wear jeans. So do I press the issue or just be satisfied he’s willing to go out?”
Um? What happened to men knowing you don’t sit down in a restaurant while wearing a baseball cap? You don’t. You don’t go to the opera in jeans with your woman dressed in couture and heels. You don’t do it and yet, women are “picking their battles” and frankly, so long as men are being permitted to dress down, behave down and treat us in a inconsiderate way (dress, actions, manners reflect this as well as what goes on behind closed doors) we are going to be victims of this dress down, casual attitude.
The men say, “Well, it didn’t work out with Suzy cause she expected too much of me (like making a plan, showing up on time, dating her with effort and forethought, listening, giving, receiving, words matching actions, progressing, not treating a woman like an option, not demanding sex upfront without any real connection beforehand, not game playing or setting us up to fail and then not wanting us, not busting boundaries just to see what he can get away with, not making excuses, not blaming or finding whatever loophole to crawl through to escape Suzy’s exasperation at this point, not treating sex like a handshake, and other such nonsense.) Yes, poor Suzy is a verifiable bitch for not wanting any of that noise. Go Suzy as she dumps his ass unceremoniously only to take time out to heal, learn, grow (while the aforementioned man is hitting up the online dating and porn in short order to soothe her absence — no real work on his part as he waits for another woman to come along that unlike Suzy has her standards set so low she’ll accept anything, even crumbs in the hope he will appreciate her. Uh-Huh. We know how that story goes) but back to Suzy.
She goes back into the jungle, armed with knowledge, more red flag behaviors and she meets a fairly upright man who seems interesting. He may come on strong at first and then go cold to engage Suzy in this nasty game of her in essence chasing him and by her own actions eliminate any personal responsibility on his part while she provides a hell of a good ego stroke to said man. Now Suzy has been burned in the past, but she’s open and trying to meet a man if only he’d meet her halfway. But he wants sex sooner than Suzy likes. She likes the man and is afraid of losing him as there are so few out there for the picking. She gives in on let’s say, date 4. The sex is…okay. Fine. Suzy keeps on, valiant and hopeful this man will be different from the series of jerk-offs she’s been running headlong into. And he’s slightly a cut above the rest to make the story interesting. Suzy looks past small red flags because if she reacted to every red flag and jumped ship, she’d be left alone and told she’s being too picky. So she doesn’t love everything she sees about this man, but she digs in and keeps trying, not being too clingy but responding to his texts, yearning for a phone call but text is the modern day way of things right and if she bucks that she’s being antiquated. Suzy keeps giving in bit by bit to this man, turning what tiny crumbs he tosses in her directions into loaves because she has to in order to stick it with this chap who isn’t the worst of the lot but isn’t the greatest. Still, he isn’t 100% on board. Oh, he tells her from time to time, he is, future fakes at his convenience, gives her scraps of verbiage for our Suzy to cling to but the longer she stays with him the worse he treats her. It’s as if he has now lost his respect in her. Probably has but Suzy is 34, she’d like to meet a man and maybe get married, have kids, she has a career, a cat, travels and has friends but she wants a life companion. But this man infuriates her because he just won’t quite step up to the plate. He makes gestures of doing so but doesn’t quite grab the bat. This strikes fear into Suzy’s heart. Maybe she’s not attractive enough so she goes on diets, works out and does acrobatics in the bedroom. Meanwhile, man enjoys her efforts but doesn’t seem moved by them. He tells her ‘I’m not ready. I like you but don’t love you. I love you but…or worse yet he lies to her face but his actions continue to downgrade her and her efforts. Suzy is now invested emotionally, physically, mentally, maybe financially into this man. She can’t just rise up on a Tuesday and walk away. After all, she’s proved herself worthy and competent. Where is his share? Where is his efforts. Suzy starts to realize his efforts will never be forthcoming. She can either keep riding along or jump out of the moving car. Attractive options. Finally, the relationshit ends one way or the other. Our Suzy is now 36. Older, wiser and back in the scene except now she meets a divorced man and thinks, well, let’s see if this will work out. Same thing except worse. Suzy keeps doing this song and dance until she thinks it must be ME! I’m the problem. Obviously! Our Suzy’s ego has been tattered, her self-esteem ripped through, self-doubt is very high, her idea of normal, twisted and there Suzy goes into the great yonder, until yes, she is a little bitter and angry (can you blame her?) and sunburned by what she has experienced so that now she doesn’t feel much when on a first date some yahoo in front of her asks, “Do you give blow jobs?” Next. Another yahoo, “I was hurt by last my relationship.” Next. Yahoo 3, “I’m bi-polar.” Next. And so on. But Suzy! Don’t be depressed! At least you can spot these AC/EUM men a mile off. Okay, you’re 43 now and the prospects aren’t good but hey, live your life with richness and satisfaction. After all, you don’t need a man to “complete you.” Rubbish. You can have such an exciting life pursuing your hearts’ content, travelling, reading and writing and filling your days up and your bank account so you can either meet a man someday or not but hey, Suzy, it’s okay because you don’t need a man. That whole biology thing? We’ve evolved! You’re lucky really, because you’re the sort of woman who won’t accept maltreatment from a man in order to “have” a man. Wow! You’re a pioneer! You go girl! Power to the woman. Meanwhile, Suzy tries to tell herself that but she drinks a little more wine than she used to and is hurt because she sees other women who are married and have men to spend holidays with, birthdays and anniversaries and build a life together. In her darkest hours, Suzy thinks, “It probably isn’t that good a marriage. He’s probably cheating on her.” Our Suzy has never and won’t ever be an OW. In some respects, Suzy is right as some of her gal pals get divorced and in some cases Suzy is incorrect but years go by of dinners in front of the tele for one. She knows every hot drama on TV right now. Years go by as she travels, earns promotions, buys a condo, buries her cat and gets a dog next time to avoid being called “crazy single cat lady.” She goes to luncheons and brunches with girlfriends, has a gay bestie who tells her “She’s a real catch but straight men are stupid.” She goes to the movies by herself and watches young couples come in and sit in front of her. She takes up hobbies to fill the hours and to deny the loneliness because every time she does admit to a friend “She’s lonely,” she’s told that’s part of the problem. See you can’t want a man to get a man. But she is lonely and denying the truth seems uncomfortable since she wants a man’s energy and company. She dates. I will spare you on how terrible these dates continue to get year after year. Men stop asking her out even though she is attractive, Suzy is bordering on her 50s and since she’s been single all these years, something must be wrong with her. Men want the 30 some odd, not Suzy. She tells herself, maybe, maybe, maybe until she stops hoping anymore. The pain in her heart every time she hopes is too sharp. She continues, smiling, if not inside, and saying she’s perfectly happy and content. She doesn’t need a man. She doesn’t need to feel like a woman let alone cherished by the opposite sex. She has herself! Suzy LOVES herself! Suzy keeps on like this until she meets a man 15 years her senior who has let himself go but is willing to meet her (at his convenience) for coffee or small dinner dates but nothing too fancy. He isn’t what Suzy hoped for or deserved but she makes the most of it but deep down inside, even this is unsatisfying as the elder man has lived, loved, buried, divorced, raised 2 kids and is frankly just looking for good company and maybe a nurse if necessary. Meanwhile, the man Suzy chucked back in her 30s? Oh, he got married. He got divorced. He got married again. He got divorced. All these women were psychos. He had children, wasn’t the best parent but he doesn’t see his part in that, after all, the mothers of his children were psychos. Still, he had a woman on his arm and she tried to keep him happy (even though the bar kept being raised on her and he didn’t give a fig to her happiness) rinse, repeat, and at least Suzy didn’t get involved with that mess. Go Suzy! No, she learned the art of making a delicious meal for one. She learned how to go it alone while jerk man found woman after woman to keep him sexually appeased and perhaps bolstered him financially. He even managed to have OWs on the side (but that’s because his wives at the time were psycho bitches!), he had a pretty gay old time switching women when it suits. He didn’t have to be responsible. He didn’t have to make any sacrifices. He gave in to his gluttonous nature and found a steady of stream of women (victim) to keep him merrily going along without stopping to consider who he is or what he was providing other than hot air. Now, Suzy has a friend who met a perfectly nice, normal man when she was 37. This woman had thrown in the towel, by gum, but she met a nice man as people meet and they married and Suzy went to the wedding (it was lovely) and they remained married. Suzy is happy for her friend but she can’t help but look in the mirror and think why not me? The answer? There were more jerks like the kind she refused to settle for than there were men who were willing, able and mature enough to offer her anything beyond scraps. Poor Suzy. She lived, loved and carved out a life but there was the absence of something throughout. Suzy tried to deny it. She tried to tell herself, “I’m fine alone.” But she couldn’t shake the terrible, gnawing sensation in her gut that this wasn’t right or normal.
What if, instead of her friend, Suzy had met a good guy, emotionally competent and the like? Maybe Suzy, being so confused would’ve been quick to dismiss him. Or maybe not. Maybe, Suzy would’ve been the one inviting her friend to their lovely wedding and Suzy’s story would have a different ending. Her life would have headed down a different course than the one above. But Suzy didn’t meet a “good guy.” She met AC/EUM/Narcs/Jerks and other undesirable mates, but never the guy who cherished her and loved her. Somehow, this is her fault too. She was EUM. We cannot debate that maybe, just maybe, our Suze was fine and had self-respect enough not to settle for just any AC/EUM and sadly, she never met the good guy because it didn’t happen. Not for Suzy. Of course, if she weren’t EUM, magic presto! Good Guy appears like in the movies. Suzy was normal but instead of the men being taken to the mat, the awesome part is Suzy is told she’s EUM or it’s somehow HER problem she didn’t meet Mr. Right. And eventually, she believes it because it must be true right? It can’t be the men contributing their part or lack thereof so Suzy feels really good about herself too, while loving herself and denying, lying and taking the blame when Suzy showed up: the men? Hardly. Not in any healthy way.
Suzy missed out on what I think is part of the human experience. I don’t care how “happy” or how much Suzy “loved” herself. I think we can all agree that people couple up, they need each other, they depend on one another and they love, support and nurture each other up to the end. It isn’t about “happily ever after” it’s about sharing happiness with another in an intimate way only lovers can experience apart from ourselves, friends and colleagues. This “You need to not care about men, not live your life wanting a man,” is rubbish. I’m not suggesting women need to contort themselves in all sorts of positions to have a man in their life. Heavens no! I’m saying this is a dance, a contract, a mutually beneficial exchange that has now become lop-sided and dare I say it, beneficial for only one party and it isn’t us. We should want to have a mate, a good one we can depend, lean, trust and return in kind. It is the natural way of things and for those who don’t need that experience, go to it, but I won’t tolerate being told that my wanting a good, decent man is wrong, or anti-feminist, or the reason why men are behaving the way they are in large and escalating numbers. I’m normal! I want normal! Normal being the Bell Curve of human experience. I want a man who doesn’t behave like a bully in the sandbox, kicking up sand in my eyes, snatching my Fisher-Price toys out of my hands and then telling me it’s all my fault for being in the sandbox in the first place. EUM? If I were that EUM, you have it ass-backwards. I would’ve married prematurely, to a man who couldn’t provide what I needed (because I didn’t know in the first place in my early 20s), would be most likely divorced and dating the same BS I am running into now, except I might have children thrown in the mix and think my running into AC/EUM men has more to do with my divorce status because I wouldn’t know that it would be the same if I were single. You go down a path and where you wind up shifts your perspective. I don’t think I was EUM then anymore I think I’m EUM now. I’m pissed off. I’m flabbergasted. I keep channeling my anger and frustration in healthy (and unhealthy no doubt) ways and when I meet a man of the proper age and availability I think, “Okay, put your shit aside and give this a fair deal.” Until he shows his ass on Date 2. And I do mean full moon in my face. I think, flush. Then a couple months go by and I meet yet another okay desirable man and do the same thing. I don’t pepper him with scary questions, I don’t call him, or text, or behave too aggressively or behave too timidly. I don’t go into sordid details about my AC/EUM past. I don’t snatch the check or demand a date out of him. I put out the right vibes without putting down the sex card prematurely and no matter how many ways I try to dance, the man steps all over my feet, drops me in mid-dance to ask another woman over my shoulder to dance and unlike the attitudes of men a decade ago, doesn’t even bother to apologize for his rude, careless, insensitive behavior. I can go back to square one, telling myself, what a jerk. Again. Good thing I kept my boundaries intact. Oh, boy, those boundaries do keep me warm at night. I go out with men (who for various reason are not suitors) who see how I behave and can’t make heads or tails of why I keep being cast aside before I’ve even had a chance to open my mouth. This dismissive attitude isn’t going to have an effect on me? I’m made out of stone? It hurts every damn time and when it stops hurting is when the real problems begin.
The very fact that I’m attractive, outgoing, personable, have manners, have my own place, have a career, have goals, have pets, have a garden, have skills, have perception and self-awareness leads me to my main point: the men are not approaching us or even maintaining relationships in the same manner they did in the past. They aren’t. Not by and large. The very few who like Sushi says about her son have a higher morality, sense of self, responsibility, and emotional aptitude proves her 19-year-old son was clearly raised by a smart, healthy woman. Kudos to Sushi and I’m happy to hear a young man is bucking the trend but that is what it is: a man bucking not falling victim to the trends. The rest of us can fortify our boundaries and should, maintain normal standards of behavior and hope a man won’t be so quick to jump on our boundaries out of the gate and to expect us to treat him with the same care and compassion he treats us. Don’t think we’re psycho for wanting that and this “That’s the way it is nowadays” isn’t satisfying me either.
If I am EUM now, I got there with a lot of help. The fact that I keep trying and it is getting worse, not better, with men in their 40s who by now should know how to behave with civility is mind boggling. I’m told to give a jerk a chance then I’m told you shouldn’t have given a jerk a chance. I’m told “love myself” and if I didn’t then I’d still be stuck in denial with an AC/EUM man so I think I love myself enough without being unhealthy about it. I can handle and accept rejection but I cannot accept how the men have such indifference, almost seem to prefer being alone than to have a woman (avoiding responsibility much?) and want a bevvy of options available to them and then act like it’s our fault. Not one apology in years and the treatment is so much worse and so much more obvious. Excuses. By the truckload. But reflection, remorse, regret, funny how up until 2008 every man did express these emotions when we were at an impasse. Some more than the others, but there was a sense of them feeling badly either by what they did or did not do or from the inevitability of the split. The last quick succession has shown me that these men have no problem using, abusing, manipulating, lying to women and don’t as Natalie warns, even respect No Contact. Hell, they act like they are “good guys!” The denial is so strong and pungent and the lack of remorse typifies their lack of care, I get it, but it further invalidates not because I’m looking for them to puff up my ego, but because there is a lack of conscience and to me, this frightening. They can be absolute hypocrites, in public, and not make the connection between how they behaved and why I’m no longer around. “Her loss, cause I’m such a prize.”
I now function with cognitive dissonance because I cannot wrap my brain around this prevailing attitude. There have always been jerks and the women who love them. Sure. But I think a lot of otherwise “normal” women are becoming EUM by virtue of their experience. The numbers are growing. I checked Natalie’s site and The Path Forward on Alexa.com a year ago and recently. The numbers of women finding these sites are growing by a large margin.
I didn’t think when I was living in my 20s that by 37 I would have had a battering ram of AC/EUM/Narc men from 30 to now. I’ve spent most of my 7 years single with few relationships in between. Had I not lowered my standards or accepted less than treatment, I wouldn’t be as hurt and damaged, but the best years of my prime wouldn’t have any men to show for it? I got a problem with that. I meet men in various ways (no online) and they have all been Dolittles in on respect or the other in that they do little and I do much. Education, race, background, finances or creed hasn’t changed the same character. I think it might but no. Then I think: It’s me, it’s me, it’s me. Now? I think: it’s the men, the men, the men.
and if I can recognize a good man and even have some hope that maybe there are more like him available to me, that proves I’m looking for the right qualities but not finding it as it is in short supply.
Hmmm, jeans to the opera, and I wore a tux (yes, I have my own tuxedo) to a Christmas party. I could have worn flip-flops… lol.
MR Writer, that was scathing, brilliant and painfully honest. And very sad. I have a lot of similar opinions on the decline of society and its impact on the dating life. I’ll bet you and I could sit down and have some great talks about it! You’d probably be interested in recent studies (and there’s quite a few out there) on how our society is failing to turn boys into men. There are a lot of reasons for this, and believe it or not the men are suffering from this too. Chronic adolescence doesn’t work indefinitely, and these guys, although they aren’t really aware of it, are being cheated out of a basic human experience as well: the satisfaction of becoming who they were meant to be, as mature adults who like and respect themselves, honor their commitments, live by principles, discover their own noble and divine nature, and do good in the world. I’m always struck by how many boy/men in the stories related on BR tell the woman “I really effed up” and “I know I’m a piece of shit” and “I acted like an asshole” “and you are too good for me.” All true – and don’t you see how this reflects how they really feel about themselves? Is it any wonder that men like this sink to the lowest common denominator in our diminished society and have very little to give?
This is not to give them a pass or not hold them responsible for their behavior. But immature, selfish men and their inability to give us the relationships we want aren’t holding us back from happiness – the bigger problem we have to watch out for is bitterness and cynicism. Those are the real happiness killers. Yes, the “I create my own happiness” and “you don’t need a man to be happy” mantras are extremely tiresome – but if one IS alone, what other attitude would you recommend as being more helpful? I know from my own life that happiness is a much larger experience than what we’ve been spoon-fed by our culture. And how many women got the “brass ring” of marriage and children only to be disillusioned and frustrated a few years down the road? We have to cast our eyes up a little higher and broaden our view. My own goal is not to bemoan that I don’t have the kind of happiness that being in a healthy love relationship brings – I’m trying to go the route of “I want to be happy no matter what happens.” I mean, what other option is there?
MR and Wiser–Your writing put a thought into my head. This is neither here nor there, and really my own half baked musings based on reading bits of history—but I heard that when the English first started settling Australia, it was men only and it turned into bedlam. There was heavy drinking and fighting and all sorts of out of control testosterone behavior (I don’t want to even think of how they took care of sexual release!). Anyway, they had to quickly send women over to civilize things. I’ve heard this said about other instances in history as well. Women are the managers of societal morality.
So perhaps it can be argued that collectively, women have gone off compas–and that’s what we’re experiencing. Until we decide what the rules are COLLECTIVELY, there’s going to be emotional chaos and pain.
That is a very interesting observation…
It seems to be an issue of the lowest common denominator, or also expressed as a race to the bottom. Whoever can provide the crassest (sluttiest=female/aggressive=male) behavior wins.
True, I always likened it to women trying to imitate men. Except that collectively, women are hurting. I guess it depends on whose data you read, but I keep hearing that women of all ages are increasingly opting out of relationships. I don’t think that bodes well for us, as individuals and certainly not as a society.
I think both sexes are hurting themselves in a lot of different ways. Everyone suffers from a lack of being in a loving relationship over an extended period of time for both emotional and practical reasons. You never build anything worth having if you don’t put the time in.
In the end we will have a population of cynical, emotionally bankrupt single people dying alone and being eaten by their pets.
Cyrano–I agree. I’m vaguely aware that there have been past generations, at some given time and place in the world, where vast numbers of people stayed single or didn’t reproduce (usually due to economics). But no one has gone into the details for how life turned out for them. And certainly it wasn’t as gender-polarized as now. We’re living in some interesting times.
Maeve, I’m wit’ ya, there. I been coming to some of the same conclusions. I remember hearing or reading that a man said “when pole dancing became a popular exercise class, I knew then that men had won!” He was talking about society in general…that’s how I took it to mean.
I recently pondered that if all women rejected AC behavior, men would change. That is the only way things would change.
A boyfriend once said about men living with a woman that “we want the bitter with the sweet”. The single EUM once said “We want to see that side too”…referring to expressing anger and dissatisfaction. One of ACs favorite memories of me is when I was coaching him at work, he was sitting, I was standing when our boss walked in and asked me to do something I obviously disagreed with because I started dressing-down the boss as to why whatever he was asking me to do was not gonna happen. AC says “I’ll never forget you arguing with Tom on that first day we met….”. I don’t remember it but I can tell AC was impressed. So many times when AC would leave my home, he seemed to play a little mind game where he’d do things seemingly to irritate.
It’s like they want to be made to toe the line. They want scolding.
Before all the “I’m not his Mommy” responses begin, “He’s a grown man”….etc. What I am saying is I think there is something in the male psyche that wants to be disciplined.
We’ve all to some degree complained that we are giving, and loving, and supportive and why can’t they give us back the same thing we give them? Because they need someone to demand something from them in order for them to step up.
I remember being in ACs office once when his wife called…apparently she was checking that he was leaving on time for them to go to a show. I could tell she was scolding from his “Ok..Okaa…aay…!….I’m leaving…!”…but he wasn’t angry or irritated…it was like a little boy being told to put down the toys and get ready for dinner. And AC told me a childhood anecdote where he begged a friend to lie and take the blame for something AC had done because ACs mother was on the warpath for his behind…and he was trying to appease her…..it was a happy memory for him…we’re not talking child abuse.
I’ve noticed how well my 33 y.o. male officemate takes orders from me.
So…needing women to civilize things might be ingrained in AC DNA.
Elgie,
In the wise words of Donkey from Shrek “No one likes a kiss-ass!”.
I don’t like a man (or woman) who is too nicey nicey either. Too sweet to be wholesome.
I don’t think it is too nice to be wholesome. I was always overly deferential, thinking it was better to do things right the first time, but you end up being a door mat that gets no respect also. Even if it isn’t to be a kiss-ass. You come off as having no boundaries because you agree with everything.
But I thinkthe instructing and scolding is also a type of feedback that helps us know what is expected and to grow. I often asked my ex-AC what else she wanted because there wasn’t much feedback (until I realized nothing would actually make her happy with me.).
Cyrano,
If you suppress your own responses, tolerate poor behaviour and pretend you’re okay with things when really you’re not at all, then that lack of authenticity leaks out.
You’re not respecting yourself and the other person instinctively senses it and doesn’t respect you either.
That is what makes me cringe when I look back at my involvement with the MM.
That’s what I mean about being a kiss ass.
I have noticed that those who let themselves feel their anger, show it appropriately and let the cards fall where they may get through this stuff quicker.
I don’t think in a healthy relationship you should be needing to ask someone repeatedly what would make them happy. Kiss ass is a harsh term to use, but I apply it to myself because there were definitely elements of that in my behaviour.
Neither am I suggesting that if I had been different the outcome would have been any different. Actually it would have ended a whole lot quicker than it did. Or never have started at all.
Here’s another one I like;
“don’t wag your tail”.
Mymble,
I get what you’re saying and agree. A lot of times I don’t/didn’t even get angry, more along the lines of the “boundless love” that’s been discussed on the site. That you’re supposed to make compromises and give people the benefit of the doubt if you love them (e.g., that they are only out with a “friend” etc.) See my post above for how that worked out.
I am now working on exactly what you set out above. Realizing that I should have such boundaries, enforce them, and realize that someone that makes excusses or blatantly crosses them means me and the relationship no good. I’m also building the self-esteem that goes along with that.
Thanks. 🙂
I also think that someone with character and caring for you wouldn’t even let you become a kiss-ass because they would want to help you maintain your self-esteem rather than eroding it.
Elgie–to clarify, I meant that women’s own sexual behavior sets the bar for social mores. At least that’s what various cultures believed at certain times and exploited it to bring about an outcome. As an aside, we control how much sex men get too.
I could never respect a man who liked it that I told him what to do. But I have noticed, even in my own relationships, men often look to women for certain social cues when they’re feeling clueless. I can live with that.
True, but if you give someone carte blanche to do as they please, you have no right to complain about the shit they come up with after the fact.
well personally, I don’t hang around too long if someone starts pulling all kinds of shit.
I think we may all be talking about different things. I’m specifically talking about henpecked guys where I’d be the boss. I don’t dig that scene. Some people do. But I wrote what I wrote to clarify my original point.
I think we were talking about slightly different things. On a spectrum, I wasn’t going all the way to “hen-pecked,” but “overly deferential.”
I started my day in not the best of moods. Finally decided to read MR Writer’s very long post, then Wiser’s, and my mood has gone irreversibly downhill. It’s just SAD. I got an email from Petie this morning, “let me hear from you. I want to know you’re alright”. I ignored him yesterday and did not answer at all. My attitude is, “Do you really care?”. In the beginning, he came after me all hot and heavy in the even told me how much he loved me. This is before we learned that his ED was incurable. Well, I didn’t jump at his advances. As a matter of fact I went to visit my daughter’s family (long distance) told him I’d contact him when I returned, but didn’t. He persisted, still came after me and so I felt, “Well, maybe he really is interested.” But, if I was going to be involved at all, I was/am looking for a life partner at this stage of my life. Is it too much to ask for? I didn’t want to get married, and eventually I knew that I didn’t want to cohabit so I actually downgraded from what I would have wanted as a younger woman. And, now because of his “problem” all he wants is friendship? And I’m talking about an email, phone call friendship. He is reluctant to see me because he doesn’t want to put himself into a compromising situation, despite the fact that I’ve told him repeatedly not to worry. His response is that I’m not a man and I can’t understand how it is for him. Now how many women would be willing to settle for a sexless life partnership? One in which he doesn’t even want to hug and kiss? Not many. But, I developed such a deep love for this man because in every other aspect he was everything I could ever want. I felt that there is no perfect relationship and if this was the only thing, I could cope because I’m no longer 30, 40 or 50. We really had wonderful times together. Maybe now he thinks I cannot live without him, I don’t know. But, I know one thing I’m very angry. I’m feeling cheated and taken for granted. I gave so damned much of my heart to him, thinking it could work, regardless. It seems as though once he knew the depth of my feelings, he decided it was no longer important to him to have a life partner. I know I didn’t hallucinate his involvement. Even my therapist agrees that I was definitely helped along to form these deep feelings for him, by his words and actions. And, now I’m supposed to be content with being his friend. Sorry, buddy. That is not what I signed up for. I have friends. They are more to me than phone call and email friends. So why do I need you? Just to have a man in my life, who has told me that he “feels like only half a man?” I’ve been supportive, patient, persuasive, every damn thing I could possibly be and for what? NOTHING. I am beyond angry. The last thing I needed to do this morning is read MR’s post. Now, I am really depressed. I wish I never met him. I was doing fine, well sort of. But, I’ll be damned if I’m going to allow this to turn me into a bitter bitch. I know that I am a very good woman and a very good catch. He is the one losing out. Apparently, he is too stupid to realize it. He is EU, and probably always was. My very wise (new college grad pychology major)daughter told me her take on it. That as a younger man he was able to hide his EU-ness with sex. Now, that he is unable to do that the real “Petie” is exposed. I gotta say it makes a lot of sense looking over his history with women. Well, it is his problem. Right now I feel kind of bad leaving him in the lurch because he is about to have laser surgery for a torn rotator cuff ON MY BIRTHDAY, no less. He swears the Dr. just happened to pick that day. But you know what? I’m resisting the sympathetic attitude. It’s a same day procedure. He will manage. If he had any sense he would have remembered that being an RN I could be of help to him. He hasn’t forgotten. His daughter in-law offered to come >2000 miles with her son to help him. He’s happy with that. He gets to see his grandson and he doesn’t need me. Fine. But, it’s his loss, not just for post op care but in general because he will not have me any more, period.
All of this has come out because I feel so forlorn after MR and Wiser’s posts which tell it like it is. I am NOT one of those women who will be just fine without a man. I still foolishly believe in love and marriage. But, I’ve had enough. At least I had a loving husband for 25 years who passed away, which is more than a lot of women have had. But, what about NOW? I think I can reasonably expect to be around another 20 years, if I live as long as my mother did. 20 more years ALONE? I am depressed, I am angry, I don’t have any hope left and I think it’s all within reason.
You BR disciples have been so kind and supportive. I don’t want to prevail upon you for any more sympathy. Please save it.It’s just a very dire situation out here. I don’t think it matters a great deal where you live. Imo, men from age 40 upwards are just not up to standard. Even the 55-65 group may initially seem like a better prospect, but in reality it just takes longer for us to decipher the fact that they’re really just as unavailable as the younger ones. They’ve had years more time to develop the suave disguise and polish to fool us.
Tink,
MR and Wiser are wrong and doing a grave disservice to the people that come here. They work to undo the good that Natalie has provided by providing ‘reasons’ to put the blame on these uncontrollable factors while taking away the position of strength to control your own actions and choices.
I’ve read MRs posts several times now and take issue with their nature. She bemoans her lack of options in her 30s when she wants to find someone serious, but doesn’t recognize that opportunities don’t come on demand.
She also paints with a broad brush about the lack of decent guys, which I find personally insulting.
I’ve heard the recital of why can’t I find a nice guy that takes care of me and makes me laugh, while all the unspoken superficial requirements of “and be over 6′-2”, with George Clooney’s charm and social status, Tim Tibows athletics and build, and Bill Gates money, are the real limiting factors.
MR’s one post mentions dating stock brokers, actors, artists, company men, producers, activists, men, like me discovering themselves and men older than me who were more established in every respect in her 20s.
I don’t see mailman, copy machine repairman, gas station mechanic, or clothing store sales person, so I consider her perspective of the pool of available men to be highly distorted and angled towards the type A narcs a priori. Even though she pines for the good old days.
Well, I have known plenty of male Players and Narcs in the good old days as well, she may just not have noticed if she was EU at that time anyway (can’t miss something you aren’t looking for).
Now she is in LA (known for its sincerity and authenticity) going to dinner with recognizable comedian actors… something we all do…
So don’t let the long diatribe get you so down. It isn’t facts, it’s one persons perspective.
BR provides far more wisdom and insight as evidenced by the number of people that are here over many years that can relate to Natalie’s articles. That insight shouldn’t be surrendered for some isolated posts.
I agree with much of what Cyrano is saying. I don’t think it’s completely hopeless–although I do think when you start to process EU behavior and see it for what it is, there’s going to be an anger stage. Inevitable, imo.
Cyrano
You’re not too bad a writer yourself! I agree with everything you’ve written.
🙂
Thanks Mymble. 🙂
Cyrano,
Thanks for attempting some kind of response. I was only looking for a general opinion from a guy’s point of view. i know that this is something that if you’re not in it yourself, it’s hard to give an educated opinion. I just have to accept the fact that he is who he is, and he feels the way he feels and there is nothing on God’s green earth I can do to alter the circumstances or his reactions to them. At least he’s trying to be honest and not deliberately hurt me.
Thanks for the input. Like he said, I’m not a man, so I can’t possibly understand.
Cyrano,
Thanks for your post. I’m plumb confused, fed up and disgusted, right now. I have to admit after finally reading MR’s post I felt worse than ever. You’re right in that there’s no mention of having dated the average “Joe Blow”, only guys with the more glam occupations so her scope of experience is pretty narrow and prejudiced. But still, the general tone seems to bear a lot of truths.
Just please tell me one thing from a man’s point of view. Do YOU believe that a man’s new discovery of being intractably unable to attain an erection would/should/could make him totally turned off to sharing any physical affection at all with a woman he supposedly loves? Or do you think that he probably never was up for more that basically a friendship with a little sex every now and then. He is considerably past middle age? This question is driving me crazy and there’s no one to ask.
I happen to be a very sensual/sexual and experienced woman for my age as he has told me many times. Could that fact exaggerate his feelings of indequacy even more?
Tink,
I hate to speak on such a topic because it is probably extremely personal, and not something I’m familiar with. But sex is a big weakness for a lot of guys. There is a caveman aspect to us that needs to feel we are satisfying a woman (unless that male is a complete AC/Nar, in which case he is only looking for himself to get off).
If you have been a very sexual person and he can’t even attempt to provide that sort of satisfaction, it may well be a mental/emotional wall he can’t overcome at this stage. If it is the case, he doesn’t have you in mind, he is competing with your past lovers knowing it is impossible for him to find a place in those ranks.
It’s a guy thing.
Cyrano; “…don’t see mailman, copy machine repairman, gas station mechanic, or clothing store sales person, so I consider her perspective of the pool of available men to be highly distorted and angled…”
All I can say is that I’ve dated men who work in trades and sales (no mail men but a fireman yes),and Mr Writer’s post applies…it’s a combo of technology exacerbating narcissism (in both sexes, though pardon the generalisation but it tends to exacerbate dependence and abandonment fears/fantasies in women and studliness/woman as object fantasies in men – please understand this is in no way at the forefront of our consciousness and crosses socio-economic divides (white, blue collar etc.
Elgie,
You may have hit upon something. I’ve thought that men seem to respond to bossy women, but I always thought it was better to promote harmony in a relationship rather than discord. If we have to argue and spit hairs all the time, I don’t want to be bothered. So that’s why I try not to be unreasonable BUT not a doormat, either.
Theoretical thoughts: things would change if the majority of women rejected (a)pole dancing as an acceptable extra curricular “dance class” activity for girls aged 4 and up (b)text messages and any form of digital communication from men engaging in the dating ‘dance’ (Mr Writer’s term) and (c)progressing into a sexual relationship with a man on the basis of his words rather than his actions that prove his interest, care and devotion to her over a period of time. I stress, that is if the majority of women do desire intimate,loving and mutual relationships with men. Mr Writer resonates totally to me. I can still have a happy life, but am coming to terms with accepting that it may have to be with a part missing because like Mr Writer I am not made to be without intimate, male presence in my daily life, I am not made to be without a man by my side and yes,a man I can call MY own. Yet this will be a long term societal change that I and probably my son and my friends’ daughters will not see, because at some point after maybe 50 years people are going to finally realise what we have done to ourselves and revolt. That’s the optimist’s POV…if it keeps going the other way then we will evolve to the point of technocratic hedonists until the history and evolution of humanity’s exceptional creative emotional potential is no longer part of our collective consciousness. I won’t be around to see that thank God and all I can do is do the best I can by myself and those I love in the time I have left. Maeve, yes, losing the struggle to remain ‘human’ is the worst case scenario in our own lifetimes. The loneliness, in the dark, at night, well it just has to be borne doesn’t it, in the end? In those dark hours it’s not a question of taking any attitude toward it, day light comes and I go on, I carry my pain and I can’t say it’s an ‘unhappy’ life, only yes Mr Writer I miss that part that I was made for.
LizzP–I feel the same way. It doesn’t feel natural or healthy to not have intimacy in my life. I still haven’t made up my mind if it’s a societal ill or simply that I too, am EU and need to work on it–or maybe it’s a combination of both. I do see people (of all ages) finding love, so I don’t believe all is lost, but I do think it’s as confusing as a rat’s maze. So for now, we can only work on ourselves.
If it is societal, I sure as hell hope it doesn’t take 50 years to develop healthy protocols for sexual relationships. That’s so depressing. 🙁
Ah, its been a while, so heres the time for my rant;)
Seriously? Men behave in not-so-responsible way cause women have gone off compas? Jeeez, why don’t we start the discussion on the neccesity of purity vows or smth then?
The rules have been set ages ago. Humanity, respect for others-it was never outdated. Saying that “women are so immoral, so the men are immoral too” places the burden of responsibility on a woman only once again, ignoring the fact men aren’t children and perfectly know what they’re doing, at the same time knowing they’ll escape any sort of “condemn”, cause the society will turn onto a woman usually, e.g. “so he vanished? what did you do, girl?”
I cringe when I see how many confused girls and women in various forums question whether they are clingy/ needy, just cause they want to call a guy they like or want to sort out where things are going after several months of dating…
Mr Writer, I take my hat off to you. Whilst being a writer and thinker and humanist of your calibre and insight must be a singular and at times intensely lonely existence (emotionally), please know that your expression here is much of what lies in my own heart and breast and you have soothed at least one person’s sense of existential loneliness. As with boundaries I know this won’t keep you or I warm at night, but reading you has given me the gift of a moment of re-cognition and I feel less lonely. Paradoxically in recognising one of my own truths in another, though it is a difficult one, I am given a dose of hope simply because I am reminded I am not alone in this truth, that someone else out there shares it and expresses it in a way that my soul/heart recognises. With gratitude…thank you. lizzp
MR Writer, it’s a poignant post I’ve read many times before responding. And I’ve read the responses to it. You have really asked the big picture question: what changed in our behaviour towards one another? Has love gone on the back burner, replaced now with self indulgence?
The sociologists, psychologists, and historians will be tackling this. But from my view there has been a sea change. The institutions that used to teach the morals, ethics, and behavioural normes of individuals and communities has collapsed. Where once church, school, government, and family were the bedrock of our lives, they are now adversarial, irrelevant, and disrespected for many reasons. It is not just “the men” it is children with total disrespect for adult behaviour that are running our lives.
What happened? We now say we’d like to have a relationship…we used to say we’d like to find someone to marry, be a wife/husband. We wanted to have children with someone who would be a loving father. The goal, from what I read and hear is now “just to have a relationship”. The goal used to be a sexually intimate exclusive partnership with a married mate. People don’t aspire and work toward a permanent contract. There are reasons for this, but I don’t think the goal of marriage for women was to enslave, demean, bore, dehumanize them. I think marriage committment evolved in societies to protect women, and their children. I think if women started honestly saying, I’d like to find someone to marry, I’m not interested in just “a relationship” things might swing back. Maybe not, Pandora’s box of casual sex has been opened very wide by the media and the money makers who exploit people.
MRWriter: Bravo. Wow. I re-read that post three times today after trying to sneak a peek at work yesterday. My heart was pounding (with curiosity, gladness, recognition, respect) reading your post line by line. Suzy captures the experience (plight?) of a uniquely talented, moral, independent single girl evolving…to single woman- to older woman- getting a dog after burying her cat, ha! She is trying her best to do what every woman in the world is told she should – to find her equal (or close to it) while in her most marriageable and fertile years. Refusing to settle (at first) she gets the same repetitive messages piled on her as we all do, reflected in books/tv/church sermons: your purpose is to achieve the simple happiness and companionship of marriage and kids and guarantee your place in a normal and respectable society. She is endlessly contemplative in her strategy, her mindset and approach. She is exercising her power of social will. Getting this is Really Important so that you will have The Best Human Experience and memories to look back on in old age. We meet her post college and knocking off several time-consuming & impressive milestones- her actual dating options and reality are posing a really strong threat; unavailable men, unambitious men, & the growing contingent of porn addicted men, ebb away at her earnest endeavors and the powers that be. The readers don’t need any real critical insight to identify with Suzy, as the usual posts exemplify her trials every day. Your example may seem extreme to rural or mid-size city women, but not other city girls, who have assiduously perfected themselves in order to compete in the most expensive and sophisticated markets, who are longing for some permanent – or even temporary- respite. Women who just want a safe life, and certainty of decent partner and some regular affection. Suzy consistently & exhaustively does ‘the right thing’ & that doesn’t always necessary end in nice results. We usually DO NOT like to discuss this possibility in polite conversation, or even on ‘edgy’ feminist blogs, so I was blown away to see it in your emotional and brilliant articulation & even more pleasantly surprised to see it get published. Suzy agonizes (albeit productively, discreetly, through soldiering on with her knowing psychological insights of bad men) through her situation (that goes on way too long). This story besets many sensible, quality women. Shit. Readers (BR?) usually want and need to read a hint of a chance to produce a happy ending. Advice and posts are usually positively affirmed and ‘liked’ – ‘you go girl’ if they give the reader some modicum of control over the future or outcome. Those Suzy-ish anecdotal stories tend make the reader more depressed or uncomfortable, too much ‘edge’ (not enough hope?)- and are usually relegated to the do not publish pile. Wry smile. A talented writer (like you!) can evoke the right amount of understanding and sympathy with your repetitive onslaughts of narrative (that ring true) in a human suffering, close to home experiences, without mass alienating. Or, even if you did, the writing is so complete (practically honest, and covered so many bases). It was seemingly unarguable- even though people really, really want to, it is difficult to refute. Loved it.
Now. If it was a solicitation for sage, action-oriented advice or a cry for help from urban burn-out, (and not just a show-off diatribe 🙂 )I would say plan leave Los Angeles for a while. A year at minimum. Put your stuff in storage and get outside of the exclusive bubbles, in narcissistic meccas, and get a different, more normalized perspective. Meet some new people, some hot men who are decent, although maybe not as glamorous, impressive or famous, not caught up in The Game. This is really not beyond your control. Or mine. Or Suzys. Totally manageable. They are more plentiful in smaller cities- or the country, where the dating is much more relaxed and the sex power struggle is not so acute. xxxxooooooo. Wow again.
I’m afraid its not just the LA thing. I live in the capital of one of the Eastern European countries and all of my foreign friends (guys) just can’t seem to understand how our gorgeous, smart, kind and educated women marry our grumpy, disrespectful men, most of whom seem to let go of themselves after they are 35 or smth. I’m afraid I have lots of Suzies in my social surroundings, especially in the age gap of 25-35. They don’t want to settle for guys who want superwomen, at the same time not being ready to invest something themselves. Even not being super-interesting, nice or good looking those guys still can get pretty awesome women, cause those women have very little choices – the number of available men (not even excluding “the flawed” ones: alcohol/drugs abusing, violent and etc.) starts to decrease from the age 30 in comparison to numbers of women of the same age. And its even worse in smaller towns.
Tinkerbell
Sorry you are so down but I understand where you are coming from. It does so often seem hopeless, especially after investing time and emotional energy in someone who should’ve disclosed his issues from the get go or even not have entered into a relationship with you. As I had said earlier, I have been half passed seeing someone with much the same issues but something felt off from the start so, while I will miss having someone to walk and share dinner with, there isn’t the emotional investment on my part. Have learned something from BR! Nope mountains won’t keep me warm at night, nor will any man who is incapable of loving or who hates my lifestyle so much that they won’t come here. A dog is a good idea, maybe also a flock of chickens and a woodpile. They’re both good therapy and the latter good exercise.
Noquay,
He should not have come after me in the first place. But, he didn’t know in advance that I would get so involved. This is certainly not making an excuse for him, but it seems he would have learned about himself, by now. He should have realized the fact that he is a man who is not able to sustain a seriously committed relationship for a long time. I don’t think men are as introspective as women. They just continue making the same mistakes over and over without it dawning on them that maybe they should think and behave differently. It’s too bad for him. I can’t stay around waiting for him to wake up and realize he had a woman who really loved him with her entire being and was actually good for him.
You’re lucky to have found out that your friend with the similar problem didn’t meet your needs in other ways as well, before you went any further.
MRWriter
Yep, the playing field ain’t fair at all. We do our best to self improve, to educate, to not resemble a gold digger in any way, shape, or form. In my last town, single older women outnumbered single men 10:1! The single men were single for very good reasons. I was disappeared on by one, stalked by another, and attacked by the third just before I bailed outta there. So different from my marriage. The really good looking guys, like the at work AC, have their pick of awesome chix, while we are told “settle”, learn to be alone, quit being so down and negative, generally by folks currently in good relationships. Ironically, here, we loose potential and current female employees, female students, right and left and even when they state the poor social prospects as the cause, no one thinks there is a problem that really should be addressed. You’ll love this; last night, I went to a local pub to meet older friends. Blowing off steam in this way has become necessary. A female student of mine bartends and two more are in the pub. This is a higher class place and the only students one will encounter are older, more mature. A guy about my age turns up and simultaneously is trying to hit up both me and the barista student. I had to reach for a mug for her as she is short, and dude makes a crude remark about my backside. I am not amused, nor are my companions. He then is trying to hit up the other female students present,ppressuring them to accept a drink from him. His pestering is so bad they eventuallybeg me aand my companions to join them, take up the empty seats, he is still trying to hit on one of the young women while I am physically blocking him with my body. He leaves,comes back, leaves, ad nauseum, I am worried about being seen with current students in a drinking situation; this can get me fired but I am more worried about this nut case bothering them. Dude comes back from outside, literally in drag (cannot make this s@#$ up), bugs us, goes to the bar. At this point, one of the owners comes in (yet another current older student), we have word, and dude gets thrown out. Once it appears he is truly gone, I drive her home as she is intoxicated, upset, and on foot. We will probably loose this student, but certainly the cause of her leaving will be ignored, and I will be looking at a reprimand at the very least. So much for gentlemanly behavior. MR, I too date older, as I do NOT like to deal with this kind of crap. Yep, there are lots of older douches out there but the phenomenon seems to be more prevalent among younger dudes.
MRWriter, Noquay, grace, Tink: you all are keeping me sane. MRW, a few months ago I decided to investigate what a guy would find with even the most cursory search for online sex. I found myself in a real-time video space where women of all ages have set up webcams in their bedrooms and solicit guys to pay for “private shows”. There is hardly any of the mystique that there may have been in the day when you’d have to buy a magazine from a high shelf, or to go someplace where the girls were at least lit up on a stage. Now it’s pretty darn clear that many teens and moms and your average-looking “normal” women will put on webcam shows. Also, read Dan Savage and see what his standard of GGG, “willingness” to experiment is. For sure online, easy access to porn has changed what many young men and young women – and hell, many older men and women – see as liberal sexual behaviour.
I just came back from Thanksgiving weekend with my fam and when I got back from the full-on happy new baby, happy parents happy grandparents vibe to my quiet apartment here in cow-town, I tanked and have been feeling pretty damn low since.
More consultations with gynecologists, fertility specialists and therapists only confirm: Magnolia’s up shit’s creek. Too bad for you, Mag. When are you going to start acclimatizing to the new reality? Not yet, not yet, not yet.
I’m riding out some days that are almost as bad as some of my worst black days and with those old days, I used to tell myself, you can’t know for sure it (love) will never happen. Now there are things that I’m having to face might never happen and what psychological defences do I have to handle the depression now? Only telling myself that it is pure luck, that I am pretty enough, that I am quality enough, kind enough etc and that it is NOT my fault that I don’t have the family I meant to.
I’ve done nothing my whole life but try to address all the ways it might have been my fault, my shortcoming, my lack of boundaries, my lack of confidence, my poor color coordination etc. My current strategy isn’t much more than I have ever been able to do, i.e. to tell myself things it’s hard to believe – like I’m attractive enough, my personality isn’t some kind of repellent – it’s just I think I’d actually go over the mental health edge if, after twenty years of trying so hard, I were to imagine that it all comes down to something I just didn’t figure out how to do.
Magnolia–Im so sorry for what you’re going through. It’s hard to know what to say–just you sending warm thoughts.
I can really relate to your last paragraph. The problem is that you have a very loud inner critic and she needs to lay off. Once you learn to tune her out (hard but not impossible–still working on it myself) your perspective about yourself will change.
I was away and missed this post and love the comments. When I first separated I was all about dating and concerned that my options would be limited. Now I think, ho hum – I just can’t imagine ever wanting to invest energy in a relationship again in the way I did. I don’t even want to “work” very hard at relationships. I also think I have a lot to learn about understanding what IS care and respect in a real way. My standards weren’t that great. And when I look around at most of the men my age who are “available” I just am not interested. Which isn’t to say that I won’t have men friends…I do and I will but dating seems not to be in the cards for me.
I think it is hard for woman to know where a man is by how he presents himself. My ex started an emotional affair just after we discussed our separation and after saying he would be the best friend ever to me and show me the care and consideration he didn’t in the marriage. He told me later that he talked all about me to this woman and told her that I accepted everything and that we had a GREAT relationship and that we were still close. He came across (to her) as Mr. Wonderful. And it gave them both an excuse to trample all over my space and my feelings in some very very cruel ways. I blame her for wanting a relationship so badly that she took everything at face value…but he was in the driver’s seat and set the stage. Personally speaking I wouldn’t even think of going on and on about my ex to a new relationship – it seems manipulative to me and I wouldn’t trust it.
ugh– espresso, I agree with you about the new girlfriend. Your ex has red flags flapping all over the place and she’s going in with eyes wide shut. Feel sorry for her–it sounds like he enjoys emotional triangles. Screw him!
Tinkerbell
Yep, you are right. Men aren’t really very self aware at all nor do they truly understand how it feels from our side of the fence because they don’t have the same feeling of time running out nor do they emotionally invest as deeply. I thank BR for the wisdom to spot and sense that something was weird from date 1 (I truly felt he just wasn’t into me right then). Perhaps given his issues (have been going on for a long time) he needs a companion which is fine but be up front from the get go. Come spring when folks are willing to come to this town again, I will probably go on line on a different site but for now an occasional dinner companion will do. I am glad you have your faith, it seems to be very much a part of and a comfort for you. I still keep the old ways of my “real home” and do such ceremony as I can solo.
Noquay,
Thanks for an encouraging word. Yes, my faith helps me quite a bit.
I think I just need to face the fact that he was never “in love”. It was supposed to be a fling in which he got in deeper than he initially planned. The ED, albeit not something he asked for or conjured up, still it provided a convenient escape.
I can walk away. The problem I have to torture myself trying to find the answers. I guess that’s what Nat would call trying to contol the uncontrollable. Feck!
Tinkerbell, do you think you can be candid with him and present it as a reason for severing ties 100%?
My line of thinking is that it may be therapeutic for you to express your frustration and also, if you verbally close the doors it may help you to distance yourself emotionally.
I’m sure there’s a way to frame it without putting him on the defensive, but yet, pointing out that you felt like you were mislead.
If it were me, I might say: I don’t do the romantic-thing-turned-to-friends thing very well. In fact, it makes no sense to me. So please don’t take this the wrong way, but I see no value in our being in contact. I think you have some wonderful qualities and I wish you well, but I’ve moved on.
Maeve,
I decided this morning, instead of not answering his calls or emails which is a chichenshit way to handle it, to call him and tell him on the phone that I can’t be friends. He can’t and I don’t think he will attempt to dissuade me because he knows he already told me weeks ago that he cannot be my lover. What have I been holding on for? Since he’s such a good guy, I’m going to be very gentle but firm and resolute in telling him that I don’t want to continue trying to be friends when I’m unable to downgrade my feelings. And, even though I mentioned it in a past email, I will let him know again that he did participate in getting my hopes up and now I have to accept that it’s all been for nothing. My best friend, the one who is getting married, is so sweet and supportive. She told me to be kind and not sound angry or resentful but let him know that I can’t keep putting myself through this and I have to move on. This is basically what you are saying. Right now, I’m still too emotional, but my birthday is the 29th. I’m sure he’ll send me a card even though we’re not in communication. After that I will call him. If he ignores my birthday I won’t call. Maeve, thanks for being so sensitive to my situation.
My pleasure, Tinkerbell. And I wish you good luck. I think you’re doing the right thing and believe it will (hopefully) give you some closure.
Mags
Was wondering where you were. Forgot about Canada thanksgiving. Quit dissing yourself. Intelligent, driven, highly productive women do have a harder time of it because we have good values, recognize crap when we see it, set the bar high, conduct ourselves with dignity and expect same from others. As hard as it will be, you do need to deal with your health issues because that is one of the things that is makingyou feel so down, your poor body is depleted.
I don’t mean to diss me, I just mean to say how hard it is to continue to tell myself I’m a great catch when I don’t see that reflected by anyone around me. God, this not being in an urban environment takes its toll.
Because I’ve got one doc saying operate and another saying don’t, I’m not gonna. I’m going to try to function on iron infusions, exercise and greens for as long as I can.
Absolutely, Mags.
Get yourself healthy first BEFORE anything else. You’re only 40. Not old, look at Halle Berry just had a baby at 44-45?
MR Writer,
I hear you. I have so much to say on this topic, but can’t articulate it like you did. I think the wireless world of instant gratification is part of the problem. It’s becoming a world of less and less effort. Friendships are counted in likes. On line bullies are out of control. Sexual gratification is a thumb click away. Dating is like shopping on line. You can get divorced and laid all in one day, with NO effort thanks to the web. Traditional dating is becoming a chore when you can get the same results sitting in front of the computer in your underpants on the couch. If one woman a guy picks on line has expectations, well, there are a hundred more to pick from. I know not every person on line is this shallow, but the lack of effort is epidemic. I see it everyday in traffic. People get all bent and go into road rage when the car in front of them makes them wait 15 seconds longer than they feel they should have to. With this world of increasing instant gratification, we are losing our humanity and social graces. It’s creating entitlement and laziness. For all the good that’s come from technology, there are side effects too. Another issue is how women let the world of men STILL define how our bodies should look. I’m not talking about obesity here, which is a health issue, but how women mutilate their bodies to stay relevant (Hollywood), and how we read magazines that are overflowing at the check out counter that tell us how to look younger, fresher, skinnier, how to do kegels, how to look sexier, have sexier hair, teeth, smile, how to get a MAN to approve. We shout that we want equal pay yet we still let men set the bar of how we look. We no longer wear corsets, which would seem like progress, but instead we get liposuction and have ribs removed to make our waist smaller. We cut ourselves up to fit into some kind of ‘standard’ set by society. It’s like we lose all credibility when we say….”I want equal pay, but do I still look pretty enough for you?” That is the moment we hand over the reins. The ‘game’ is based on our need for men to approve of how we look and behave. We can be a CEO of a company, but if a man we date or want to date says our nose is too big, or boobs too small, or we are too opinionated, we doubt our own worth. Is he out getting a penile implant? Hell no. I know, I know, not all men are like this, but the trend in society is making people feel entitled to what ever they want, and they want it now. The days of courting and getting to know each other are getting fewer. You are absolutely right MR. Writer. I’m not being negative, but more like realistic. I still have hope that there are men and women out there not getting swept up in this, but let’s face it, the world is changing. It has changed all through out history, good and bad things come and go. Societies are capable of hurting themselves, they have over and over. There have also been the black sheep who stray from the herd, speak up and change the world for the better. Why can’t we just all get along and play in the same sandbox together? Hell if I know, but some people just can’t. They don’t need to, what they want doesn’t require it. Why put in the effort if you can get what you want for nothing. For me, the effort makes what I gain more relevant and fulfilling and gives me more purpose. It’s a sense of accomplishment. I respect others who make effort. It’s more authentic.
I would like to suggest that if you are changing yourself for a man, you are either living in a BS illusion of a relationship or you are involved with an AC. In either case, you making such physical changes isn’t going to change the outcome. They will never be happy/impressed/provide validation.
There are probably hundreds of guys that would love you just the way you are that you aren’t even considering because you are too busy wondering why some AC isn’t giving you the time of day.
For example, I like bigger, curvier women that some friends have labeled as “thick”. Not very flattering, but it is what I like. If someone I was attracted to went on a diet and lost chest/hips/butt, I would be underwhelm, unless it was for health reasons.
I told my ex-AC that I thought her nose was cute. One day while looking in the mirror she made the comment that her nose was too big for her face. No idea if it was her own insecurity or some other male AC told her that, but evidently the thought was planted in her head even though I liked the way she looked.
Point is, you can never win this game because the next person might have loved you just the way you were, and now has no interest in your “new looks.”
I don’t understand where all this nostalgia for the past is coming from. Sure maybe the guy would buy you a meal but then his pay would be so much more than yours that there was no way you could have afforded it. If he got you pregnant and didn’t marry you, you’d probably be forced to adopt, or live in poverty as a pariah. And if he did marry you, and turned out to be an AC (and there were many, many of them) there was no escape. My gran married a seemingly great guy who turned out to be a violent, aggressive drunk. In those days marital rape and domestic violence were not seen as criminal. I could go on and on about how crapped on women were in ye good olde days. Sure everything looked lovely from the outside, because women suffered in silence.
We now have economic independence and the right to choose who we have sex with. That brings it’s own difficulties but I for one do not want to turn the clock back to 1950.
Yes, Cyrano, MR Writer and Wiser are ‘wrong’, and Digging and Mymble pointed out the negative propaganda MR Writer is using to try and persuade others.
MR Writer is a professional writer, and no stranger to the power of the pen.
Magnolia is facing serious health issues. Noquay is traveling 100 miles one way to find a man. Fiestywoman keeps running into idiots on the Internet. Tinkerbell’s heart has just been broken. They are all vulnerable to the propaganda, or perhaps they already shared the same beliefs.
Negative propaganda hurts people, and it hurts societies, and it has encouraged horrific acts throughout society, and it doesn’t solve problems.
As Grace and Digging stated, we really need to be careful about what we choose to believe because, yes, our beliefs are a choice, even if left unchallenged.
I say “be the change you want to see.”
throughout history
Personally, I am sick and tired of some of the people on this site trashing men. I can understand the anger towards AC’s, but for MR Writer and some others to trash all men is WRONG! I find it offensive, and disrespectful to the men in this community–no wonder more men don’t comment here, or bother to engage with us.
Also, women watch porn, women participate in porn, and women benefit from the porn industry, and if you want to fight against porn, go advocate against it instead of running off at the mouth about things you know nothing about….
There are numerous men who are actively working to improve male-female relationships, and it is totally ludicrous to blame all of our relationship problems on men. This blame game is just another way for people like MR Writer to blame other people for her problems, and take the focus off of herself.
I say this: You do not get everything in life that you want. Some people never had a father or a mother; some women can’t have children; some men can’t have children; some people can’t see because they are blind; some people can’t hear. We all have something that we can’t have, or that we may never get. That is just life; it is just the way it is. MR Writer, I will never have a father and I have two friends who will never see, but we are not going to look outside of ourselves and blame others.
If you don’t like men so much, then stop looking for one. It will leave more for the rest of us!
I am not even that old (in my 40’s) so I am actually referring to the 80’s – 90’s. I would go out with very hansom and arrogant guys that women would line up to have sex with, and the guys new it and treated them like trash. (i’m average looking at best) Point is that it only takes a couple of ACs to monopolize dozens of gullible women, and make it seem like every male is like that.
The women at the same time weren’t looking for a nice guy because they wanted the excitement and challenge of being “the exception,” and didn’t want to make any commitments. So those old days weren’t about any sort of old-fashion dating and emotional involvement either.
Technology has made things faster but not better. It lacks humanity and warmth. While its possible to get off to online porn, there isn’t a connection. What it does do is protect your emotional walls while avoiding the difficulties of trying to breach someone else’s walls.
And as EVERYONE here might attest to, a “solo performance” can be more satisfying than feeling used by an AC.
And that is one industry that the women make a hell of a lot more than the men.
People who are looking for sex, are LOOKING FOR Sex. People that are looking for a connection want to date, to have a conversation, and share an experience, whether it be a nice dinner, a movie or show, or a moonlit stroll. If you are going to places like clubs or online where people go more to hook up, don’t be surprised if people approach you for that.
However, if someone actually asks you out on a date, it probably is to make a connection, otherwise they would be online asking for a BJ, etc., since that approach is far more efficient.
I hate it when I make the effort to ask someone on a date and they look at me like I asked if they would take their pants off. Yes, you can assume I’m asking because I find you physically attractive; however, unless its in a situation where I will probably never see you again, you can also assume that we have spoken before and some aspect of your personality (sweetness, intellect, similar view points, etc.) has intrigued me enough to go out on a limb and put my fragile male ego on the line to offer to take you out.
An infamous comment in the 80’s from WOMEN was that they found it easier to sleep with a guy than go to dinner with him because it was shorter and they didn’t have to carry on a conversation.
So I think some females here might have to step up and take some ownership of the problems they are pointing to now!
When society tells boys they are not men unless they are getting laid, and girls aren’t women until they put out, you can bet everything you have that that is where they are going to put their efforts. It isn’t until experience shows how hollow that is that they will look for a deeper connection, and in many cases the sex may be enough because you don’t know what you’re missing if you’ve never had it.
“You can’t always get what you want, but if try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need.” 🙂
Mags,
This is a long shot, but is there any chance you could get well enough to move back to Toronto? You said you were happier there. I don’t see you in BC. What do you have in common with those people? You need to be in a more racially mixed cosmopolitan environment to fulfill your dreams. Not the back woods. I’ve never been to BC and don’t know much about it but I do know you are a minority much more so there than you would be in Toronto. You’ve even said as much. You’re looking for a needle in a haystack. Why stay there? Plus, you’d be in a more sophisticated, medically advanced metropolis for your health concerns present and future.
Natalie,
I just wanted to say thank you so much for allowing the comments and exchange between MR Writer and Cyrano and others. I find both perspectives very enlightening to read, though I tend to agree more with Cyrano’s thoughts. However, ALL of the comments in those threads were interesting to read, and I thank you so much for allowing the interchange of thoughts.
Hope you’re enjoying NYC! Did you have a cannoli yet? Oh girl, you have to have one while you’re there!!!! 🙂
I second that Revolution! Definitely food for thought there.
I’m in my 50s and live in one of the largest metropolitan areas in the states not on a coast and I have not noticed such a sea change in men, though. There have always been bad apples of both genders. I managed to avoid egregiously bad behavior until my last r/s. Truth be told, I know in my case it was more about who I was/my circumstances at the time that I enmeshed myself in the AC situation than about the quality of men available.
Fair or not, I think that being older has always been a limiting factor for women in search of a partner. I don’t hold it against a particular generation of men.
Magnolia…I really sympathize with what you are dealing with. The health issue is very depleting and I hope you chart your own path. Part of the work I do is in the health field and I would search until you find the kind of care and outcomes you can live with. I don’t know where you live and I know you have made friends and have good contacts where you are but am seconding the idea of maybe trying to move back to TO where an urbane, critical thinker and independent woman like you can find what she needs, wants, aspires to and values. I am facing the same decision myself. And I really hear what you are saying that we can work really hard on ourselves – really hard – and even accept that fact that we aren’t going to have allies in the struggle but at a certain point being isolated and lonely gives us rotten feedback about ourselves. At a certain point we are going to take it to heart even though it doesn’t reflect anything about us. IMO. And I am working out the same for me. Also considering a move to TO. Not going to find what I am looking for in this retirement community with my ex hanging around being a “friend” lol
One of you wrote”…be the change you want to see.”
Why don’t we start by showing MR. Writer some compassion? She spoke from inside about her frustrations and her fear. She shared something that is real to her, in her life. So, we beat her down? If you find her comments negative, give her encouragement to find hope, not shame her.
Selkie
I don’t see anything in what I wrote, or what anyone else wrote, as beating MRW down. In fact in earlier posts in which she described bad experiences I did actually feel and express sympathy. Most of us have had bad experiences here but the problem I have is turning particular experiences into universal truths about men. I think there is an issue too, which Cyrano touched upon, with wanting an “Alpha Male” and then being aggrieved at the AC behaviour that often goes along with that profile.
A translated Gaelic proverb:
“The little fire that warms is better than the big fire that burns”
Also, giving headroom to the utterances of self identified EUMs and misogynists seems self defeating.
I agree with you Mymble. In my opinion, MR Writer wasn’t just talking about her personal experiences: she clearly broached ethics and asserted some of her philosophical ideas regarding ills of men and society (as evidenced both in her writings and the responses from commentators), which will inevitably translate into rhetoric for some, and ultimately challenged, and I believe rightly so….
The propaganda issue to me stems from her not basing her ideas on facts or research–her diatribe seemed to be based on her personal experiences and experiences expressed to her by those in her social circle.
I don’t want to judge MR Writer, and I offer her my compassion, but I found it difficult to ‘hear’ her through all of the “cynicism,
bitterness,” and attacks on men and society.
I appreciate MR Writer is growing and learning like everyone else, but I consider it a disservice to agree with someone simply because “I hear you.” I might hear you, but if I find your approach dis-empowering and self-defeating, I believe I am doing you a service by asking you to hear me.
I found it difficult to “hear” her because of the LENGTH of her diatribe. You can make a point without being preachy. The longer you are hearing basically the same thing it begins to lose it’s impact. She obviously feels strongly about her experiences and thereby conclusions, and we can get long winded when we are on our soapbox. But, this is a blog. Granted, I am not the owner of the blog so I don’t set the rules. However, I really do hope that her posts in the future will be much shorter. And I do feel she should have given more consideration to the fact that men participate here also, and it’s not pleasant for them to hear what she said, as Cyrano pointed out. We want men to keep coming here. It’s beneficial
for us all.
I too am mystified at this negative response to MR Writer. She was expressing some very raw feelings with a lot of honesty. It was painful to read and touched some nerves with me too but I find that it’s the painful and uncomfortable things I read here that I learn the most from. In my response to her I was trying (and obviously failing) to get across the point that even though we live in an often dumbed-down, callous and coarse society where values and standards and simple decency are all declining (and Cyrano is right, women too have to own their part – we’re all in this together folks), that this doesn’t have to plunge us into cynicism and bitterness.
These are the times we’re stuck with, maybe they’re worse than they were in the past regarding relationships, maybe not, but the point is that we’re going to have plenty of losses and disappointments, and some of these will bring us to our knees. But I know several people who have managed to find happiness again despite some incredibly terrible things that have happened to them. What’s their secret? Simply an attitude that happiness is still possible no matter what. Not easy, but possible. Even if they don’t get the relationship they want, the job they want, the life they want. Hopelessness is a worse fate than aloneness, as well as buying into the idea, which is nothing more than a story in our head we tell ourselves, that “if I don’t get X I can’t be happy.”
Again, I challenge MR Writer and anyone else, if you can recommend a better attitude on how to deal with the absurdities and disappointments of life, I am eager to hear it.
Wiser,
What you are calling a negative response is simply a rebuttal of some of the accusations made in MR’s posts. Her tone and style were authoritative, suggesting that she was conveying some fundamental truths rather than personal observations and anecdotes. The implications of these statements were undermining some of the core aspects of the BR articles, i.e., that you have the power to control your fate through understanding and insight.
The statements were also based on certain underlying premises that weren’t clearly conveyed, and as the saying goes: “the devil is in the details.”
The end result of all this was to make a fair number of people on this site feel even more dejected and forlorn without recognizing that MR’s observations may not apply equally to them.
The counter-posts simply pointed out some of the assumptions and fallacies in MR’s propositions and positions, so people could see more clearly how it fit into a larger framework. And if anything might show MR that she was looking at things in a skewed way that even she didn’t realize.
MR is free to post additional comments that further explain or contradict our posts if she feels she has been misinterpreted or slighted.
We all read things differently Cyrano. For example whilst I didn’t find Mr Writer’s tone and style authoritative I find yours to be so. For example:
“Her tone and style were authoritative, suggesting that she was conveying some fundamental truths rather than personal observations and anecdotes. The implications of these statements were undermining some of the core aspects of the BR articles, i.e., that you have the power to control your fate through understanding and insight.”
I read Mr Writer’s post as speaking to her own ‘truths’ as gauged from her own experiences and observations. In one previous comment on this thread I offer one of my own truths and in another a few general ideas that are theoretical but resonate with me as they are formed from my own experience. I don’t offer these as absolutes but as my own ideas, ideas that have helped me. Mr writer extrapolates from the personal to the general and then back to the personal in an effort to define herself, her experience and where she stands today in relation to that experience. We are not all born equal and in my view she has exceptional insight and expressive ability and avoids bitterness and ‘man bashing’ by virtue of her tone and style which convey honesty and insight more than authority. Also, rather than undermining BR concepts, I read her as expanding on them. Natalie’s concepts wisely have never promised any reader that if you embrace them your life will turn out exactly as you wish it. As far as I can see Mr Writer has simply expressed some of her sadder feelings around lack and disappointment. We cannot control other people’s beliefs, emotions and actions no matter how well we take care of ourselves. That does not mean we need give up taking care of ourselves in the ways Natalie so wisely promotes at BR. I can’t see how Mr Writer’s comment conflicts.
Keep forgetting that in digi land one is better off being as clear as possible…it’s rather easy not to bother as digital communications are labour intensive enough as it is. Blah, blah so anyway…to all reading and following this thread let it be known that my reactions to Mr Writer stem only from the long post on this second page of comments. I noticed some el massivo contributions from her on page 1 but haven’t read those.
I just want to say that I had no problem with MRWriter so eloquently expressing herself in her comments. In fact, I found her raw honesty and vulnerability touching. I hope that she continues commenting here and sharing her thoughts. I understand a lot of her frustrations, though I look at them from a slightly different perspective and haven’t come to the same conclusions that she has. Still, I am grateful that there is a space here on BR where women AND men can come when they’re feeling vulnerable and express their thoughts and receive a fresh perspective from others, one that may bolster them even for just another day.
el·o·quent (l-kwnt)
adj.
1. Characterized by persuasive, powerful discourse: an eloquent speaker; an eloquent sermon.
2. Vividly or movingly expressive: a look eloquent with compassion. See Synonyms at expressive.
rhet·o·ric (rtr-k)
n.
1.
a. The art or study of using language effectively and persuasively.
b. A treatise or book discussing this art.
2. Skill in using language effectively and persuasively.
3.
a. A style of speaking or writing, especially the language of a particular subject: fiery political rhetoric.
b. Language that is elaborate, pretentious, insincere, or intellectually vacuous: His offers of compromise were mere rhetoric.
4. Verbal communication; discourse.
di·a·tribe
?d???tr?b/Submit
noun
1.
a forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something.
“a diatribe against the Roman Catholic Church”
synonyms: tirade, harangue, onslaught, attack, polemic, denunciation, broadside, fulmination, condemnation, censure, criticism; More
Origin
More
late 16th cent. (denoting a disquisition): from French, via Latin from Greek diatrib? ‘spending of time, discourse,’ from dia ‘through’ + tribein ‘rub.’
Translate diatribe to
Use over time for: diatribe
vul·ner·a·ble (vlnr–bl)
adj.
1.
a. Susceptible to physical or emotional injury.
b. Susceptible to attack: “We are vulnerable both by water and land, without either fleet or army” (Alexander Hamilton).
c. Open to censure or criticism; assailable.
2.
a. Liable to succumb, as to persuasion or temptation.
b. Games In a position to receive greater penalties or bonuses in a hand of bridge. In a rubber, used of the pair of players who score 100 points toward game.
dis·re·spect (dsr-spkt)
n.
Lack of respect, esteem, or courteous regard.
tr.v. dis·re·spect·ed, dis·re·spect·ing, dis·re·spects
To show a lack of respect for: disrespected her elders; disrespected the law.
So Reality Rita,
Most of us are above average intelligence here, so we know the definitions. What is your point?
Um I was wondering if it was just me not getting the point!?
I had the same question as Tinkerbell. Reality Rita, I read your pasting of definitions as a passive and indirect way of responding to Revolution’s response (directly above yours) to Mr W.
My reading is that you consider Mr Ws comments as Rhetorical, Disrespectful Diatribes that are neither eloquent or reveal vulnerabilities on the part of the writer.
My opinion is that although it is tempting it’s probably for the better good to couch critical responses/disagreements in more direct ways, especially in ‘digi land’ as there is a danger of having indirect comments read as passive-aggressive. My immediate response was to respond to your definitions in kind (was actually posted) and although part of my motive was to convey irony, I also realise that I satisfied a more base urge to communicate disagreement in what
I perceived as a similarly indirect and passive-aggressive manner. On some level.
in·di·rect (nd-rkt, -d-)
adj.
1. Diverging from a direct course; roundabout.
2.
a. Not proceeding straight to the point or object.
b. Not forthright and candid; devious.
Thesaurus Legend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Adj.
4. indirect – extended senses; not direct in manner or language or behavior or action; “an indirect insult”; “doubtless they had some indirect purpose in mind”; “known as a shady indirect fellow”
direct – straightforward in means or manner or behavior or language or action; “a direct question”; “a direct response”; “a direct approach”
If a man came onto this site, and commented in a similar nature about his frustrations about women in the same tone and manner, as MRW, I don’t think the women of this site would call it eloquent, vulnerable, honest, or brilliant.
I’m all for sharing different perspectives, and I don’t think minds will always meet or find common ground–it is the disrespect toward men in her comments that bothered me, and I don’t find disrespect to be brilliant or eloquent; I find it to be discourteous and mean and lacking COMPASSION, and it saddens me to hear such intelligent women to fail to own it.
Whatever happened to treating people with love, care, trust, and respect?
If you want respect, you have to give respect.
What self-respecting man would sit down at the table with someone who holds him in such contempt?
Also, yes, I do believe that you create your own reality by what you believe. If you believe all men are pigs, you will see them as pigs, and you will interact with them, as you would a pig. (Sorry pigs, I don’t mean the animals.)
I understand MR’s frustration, but why stop there, broaden your view.
Why not come from a position of love?
We already know that MR is not alone, plenty of women live and die alone, and I don’t find anything particularly new about what she has been saying–women have been saying the same thing for years.
I say focus on the solution not the problem, and extend compassion not just to MR, but to everyone who seeks BR.
It saddens me that so many women here aren’t sending out compassion to the men who may have been hurt by what she said.
If someone made derogatory remarks about my race, my ethnicity, or …, I would be offended and hurt, and I would be further injured by someone calling it eloquent or brilliant or honest.
It also seems strange to me that the women on this site have asked other women to tone down there comments, but with MR Writer, you cheer and call her brilliant–SAD.
my
Quite a few of us disagreed.
Eloquent in the sense that she expresses her views and perspectives with clarity and grace. This has nothing to do with agreeing with the content of those views and perspectives.
I am not cheering MR Writer. I am acknowledging the frustration in her “voice.” I am validating her feelings and her right to have and express them, even while I disagree with the conclusions she’s made from those feelings.
I don’t at all agree with MR Writer’s conclusions about men, but I DO sense the pain and frustration in her voice, and I hope that we can help her share her views and come to a more positive understanding. This doesn’t come from browbeating or namecalling. It comes from empathy and then a little straight talk, albeit with words “seasoned with salt.” I would be reacting the same way (and have reacted the same way, might I add) to a man on this site expressing misgivings about his experiences with the women in his life, wondering if all women were like this.
my ex, who I tried to be friends with all summer after we broke up, and pretty much was lying to myself, recently started talking to someone who ISN’t divorced yet. Since I was lying to myself and hoping he would change his mind about us, I did not handle this news well. He also went on to tell me how into him she is and that she already deactivated her online dating profile for him….to me, that is such a huge red flag that only after a few weeks someone who is still processing a seperation/divorce is already moving that fast…he’s also emotionally unavailable and will see where things go because thats who he is…he mostly just wants someone to shag. Seeing as I didn’t deal with the breakup etc after we broke up like I should have, I am just heart broken and it hurts to think of him with someone new, who ISN”T EVEN DIVORCED YET!!!!!! UGH just needed to vent about this.
Quotations By MR Writer
It’s really surprising to me how men think only in terms of what they can get but never on what they have to offer (or don’t). …. …. We’re not supposed to bring any baggage into the picture but they by virtue of having a pulse are permitted to behave as badly as they wish and if we don’t like it, they will find someone else who will.
No accountability. No shame. Appalling. How have we wound up with a global society of emotionally stunted, immature men who are well past the age of such sad excuses?
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…, but the dating mores and social rules have so relaxed that men in general are taking advantage of a woman’s goodwill, frustration and our desire to prove ourselves to NOT BE GOLD DIGGERS that I see more and more women courting men in the way men used to court women (and these men are loving it!).
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Now, men cannot be bothered. They set up coffee dates. They do whatever they can to have the woman pursue (and pay for dates) them. They are more interested in a power play than in developing and earning a relationship. They want the goodies all up front, no responsibility and zero accountability and god forbid we squawk! They blame women’s lib, they blame the easy sex (and throw us under the bus there when on the first date they have the temerity to ask us how we feel about blow jobs). Don’t believe me? Read article here: .
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We keep coming here scratching our heads in sheer wonderment and utter amazement. Confounded and gobsmacked by the exception of the asshole being now the rule. We keep referring to a good man like he’s the Holy Grail. I love Monty Python, but the men of today clearly had hamsters for mothers and their fathers smelled of elderberries. And we keep coming here while the men keep going to SoSuave.com and AskMen and I say the obvious point isn’t being dealt with
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We are suddenly made to see the maltreatment and bad behaviors not of the exception of the rule but the rule itself with the exception given to those few men who have not been tainted by the “selfie” culture of today. Let’s face it, most of those “good” men are taken, bagged and tagged.
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Men in large droves are not interested in love. Maybe they were hurt many moons ago but so were most of us.
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I may wind up alone for the majority of my life by virtue of the fact that men have given over to the most basest and primal of urges with no approbation to keep such wantonness in check by our society and by men leading by example who are too few and far between. Men want a pack mule.
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Like it or not, men in many respects set the tone for all interactions and if we women continue to buffer, excuse, rationalize, tolerate the unacceptable then men will not roll their craptastic behavior back. It will progress. It will carry on for our daughters if it is already (I believe it may be) for the rest of us. We may be victims of a social decay and perversion infiltrating ourselves with every new gadget, technological shift, online access to dating, porn and all sorts of social connections conflating the real issue at hand. Men don’t care (by and large). When they don’t care they treat everything except themselves (but long-term themselves included) with a laissez-faire attitude. We can either choose to be mules or more.
Reality Rita, see my response to the definitions you pasted from the internet above. I want to respond in the same way to the quotes you paste here.
Eeks! I love it here and Nat’s message saved me when I was floundering, but this current drama is seemingly become more like a Salem witch hunt and more about being right than about being helpful to each other. I guess I saw MR Writer coming more from a place of frustration than man hating. That was my ‘devil is in the details’ interpretation. Glass half full. Drive her away and the message BR conveys is lost anyway.
I went for a long walk today at a buddhist retreat. I’m not buddhist, but some of the messages there help me find peace and resolution. I said a prayer for all us BR folk and spun the wheel.
If you’re feeling bummed out like I sorta am about this, I suggest checking out a documentary I saw last night when I couldn’t sleep. It’s called ” I AM”. It gave me a little hope and as a result I vowed to make some changes to practice what I preach. First, I’m signing up to volunteer at the homeless shelter’s garden. I need more purpose anyway. Pay it forward.
I’m the one who is divorced, and yet I found this very insightful. I just stopped seeing a guy for a variety of reasons, but big one was that he wanted a relationship with me and I wouldn’t/couldn’t. I’m definitely not in love with my ex, but I’m still grieving that our marriage didn’t work. It’s a tough thing because I want to date, but ONLY casually. A step further and I get nervous, and apparently several steps further make me freak out and dump a very nice guy who is now heartbroken.
I’m so wounded that I’ve wrapped myself up in a ball and have virtually hidden away. However, reading MR Writer made me lift my head for a while. I can hardly think clearly these days, so I haven’t got anything inspiring to say, except that I found her writing just amazing and for the first time in ages I forgot about my worries for a while. Her comment about men expecting a woman to pay reminded me of an occasion a few months ago when a fellow student (mature age) asked if I would like to meet up with him to talk about my research. Making arrangements our email exchange went like this:
Him: It was great talking to you today and I’m looking forward to catching up. How about next Wednesday or Thursday at a venue of your choice?
Me: Next Wednesday would be good. How about 11am at the coffee shop by building 401?
Him: Done deal … I will look for the person who is eager to buy me a coffee 🙂 see you then.
I’m not sure why but his response made me feel vaguely uncomfortable and not because I begrudged the thought of buying him a coffee! All I know is that I didn’t like it and I would never had said this myself. Maybe it was a sign of things to come; maybe it was indicative of the bigger picture that MR Writer talks about? At any rate I didn’t end up going and instead crawled back to safety. I’m not ready yet, I’m vulnerable and EU. Maybe I won’t ever be ready. It’s sad. However, I will echo Revolution when she hopes MR Writer continues commenting here sharing her thoughts. MR Writer what a wonderful gift you have.
Lilly–ok—this is just me. But good lesson here. You saw what might be a red flag, boundary pushing. Tuck it behind your ear and keep your eyes opened. He might just be teasing you in a goofy kind of way, but the MORE important thing is that you felt uncomfortable–and you need to listen to that and honor it.
Hello everybody who has taken part in this side discussion. I’m all for discussion but it must be on topic, within commenting guidelines, not private convos, and basically not treating this place like a forum. This is a blog *not* a forum even if you like to pretend that it is. Imagine that each post is a room full of people having a focused discussion on a topic and then think about what your comments sound like in this context.
This is one of those situations where like in an argument, it’s gone from arguing about this side issue to arguing about the way you’re arguing. Please think about what you’re writing and remember that you cannot argue that people ‘should’ speak their mind while telling other people off for doing it, nor can there be telling people off for expressing their opinion and the way in which they do it when the way in which you express that to them may make you guilty of the same thing.
If you are in any way unclear about the site guidelines, please read https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/about/site-use/ before making any further comments. I would point you to #2 and #4 in particular plus if you read the commenting FAQ https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/faqs-comments/ and go straight to #9, 10 and 11, then you will be very clear on the way things roll.
There are boundaries here for a reason and keep in mind that 99% of people who read here don’t comment. There is a wonderful community here of both women and men from all walks of life in various shapes, sizes, colours, mindsets, religions etc. I am very fortunate that the guidelines and general boundaries of readers means that this is a respectful and collaborative atmosphere. In this instance however, this is not the case and I am drawing a line here. These guidelines exist for a reason and aside from them being a lesson in boundaries, it also means that the opportunity to have on topic discussions can exist without the mean spirited conflict that often exists on other comment boxes around the web. Please don’t bring that drama here.
I agree 100% with making sure you listen to your red flags. I have great empathy for myself right now as I was very lonely and met someone that was not over his divorce/ex-wife, had rushed into a relationship where they called it quits twice, and then rushed into a relationship with me. I knew that it was probably not good for me but I also loved someone telling me how great I was; how he couldn’t believe how much he loved me already, future tripping over how great it will be etc. All before a month of dating. He did make sounds that it was “not what he expected” and then would talk about next summer and vacations, etc. I was confused. That is a big red flag. If you feel bulldozed over, unclear about what you are hearing or if “I love you” comes out of the mouth before he even knows you, there’s a fair chance that he is MISSING being in love. You are here, warm, kind, generous and as lonely as he is. I also did not heed my own self when I told him that although I didn’t mind talking about past relationships, he was speaking as if the divorce had just happened; not 3 years ago. The 2nd breakup (one week prior to me) was actually too fresh, although he had said it wasn’t. Soo many red flags but I was so greedy for attention and not wanting to be lonely again, I compromised myself. I’m not heartbroken, but I am hurt. And still confused. If you are in a similar situation and feel confused from what you are hearing (or not hearing) please learn from me to step away immediately. And don’t let them do “honey do” projects at your place; they will be half-assed completed and you’re in a worse spot there too.
Hi everyone, I have to say I am overjoyed at finding Baggage Reclaim and wish I had found it much much sooner, having had two relationships now with Emotionally Unavailable men since I separated from my marriage ten years ago. The most recent ended two weeks ago and only lasted 4 months, but has completely blind sided me as I thought that after the previous experience of three years, and a break in between I was absolutely ready and had my wits about me…it seems not 🙁
I met this guy online, literally chatted for half an hour before he suggested we meet for a drink as we were both unusually free that day. I was at a loose end and so thought why not, but was not particularly fussed either way. However, when I met him I was bowled over, he looked WAY better than his photos and (and maybe this is significant I don’t know) had a vulnerability about him that I found deeply attractive. He was quietly spoken, unnassuming and too thin! Haha.
Anyway, that first date lasted hours, and we talked a lot, and towards the end he asked me something that even I (with all my insecurities) wouldn’t ask on a first date which was “do you have problems trusting people because I do”. RED FLAG, which I completely and utterly ignored. I think I gave some ridiculously vague answer, and tried to move the conversation on.
We had a few dates after that which I now know I should have run a mile from. They were littered with references to his ex (the mother of his children), to the fact that he was “very damaged” (his actual words) by her cheating on him for the majority of their relationship. His situation now is this:
He is 41 and lives with their two children, aged 13 and 19. They split 4 years ago and he told me that their relationship was bad from the start, they did very little together and she had lots of “male friends” that became more than that on many occasions. He lived with her early on, but more than once came back to an empty house where she had taken off, only to return when things didn’t work out. He took her back every time. He told me that she has never worked, EVER. She has 2 year old child that is the product of the last affair she had and they live nearby-ish. She had the children sporadically staying with her, and he portrayed her as a bad, absent mother that couldn’t be bothered with the kids. HOWEVER, despite the fact that the children lived with him, he pays to keep a roof over her head and was very open about the fact that he supports her practically too….he fixes stuff for her, services and MOTs her car, trots off to look at new cars for her, has her and her mother round for xmas dinner etc etc. On several occasions throughout our four months together he told me how sad he felt that her little girl was “so cute” because he had desperately wanted another child with her and she had said no and insisted he had a vasectomy (which he did). He had a photo of that little girl on his phone…on a visit to his Dad one time he showed them. He told me once that she asked about me, as she had seen me a couple of times (he never introduced me and left me sitting in the car whilst he spoke to her) and he laughed when he told me that he said to her “what makes you think she is my girlfriend?” RED FLAGS NO???
The first month or so with him were where my insecurities manifested itself, and it became a non-relationship waiting to happen…completely my own fault because of the red flags I ignored and there were more:
1. I suspected very early on he had a drink problem…I would go to his and see many many cans on his “recycling windowsill” from the previous evening and I voiced this to friends. I ignored it, put it down to…I don’t know what…but I ignored it. But his conversations were littered with references to his excessive drinking, all relayed with pride at his own laddishness. He drank around the boys, and we never met without drink being involved.
2. He regularly told me he didn’t know if “he could do a relationship” that he was “scared of getting hurt” (rubbish, I don’t believe that for a second) and that he couldn’t “offer me false hope”. I ignored this, hoping it would go away and that I would be enough to make him change, give him faith in women etc etc.
3. Later on, when he had stopped saying these things, other issues arose…he never introduced me to his boys, despite me going round there, staying the night and spending time with him whilst they were in the house. He would shut us away in his kitchen (he had a big house but we would sit uncomfortably in his kitchen with the door shut). His youngest son would sometimes shuffle in, not look at me, not respond when I said hello and Mr EUM would just leave it, do nothing. I told him I felt it was really unhealthy and his reply was that he “didn’t want to hurt them”. By the end of the relationship I was just getting to the stage of being able to talk to the youngest but to be honest they spent most of the time in their rooms. I don’t think they even knew my name really. I have kids myself, and am ashamed that I allowed this to happen…I felt it was a very bad way to deal with the situation but was so concerned with keeping him happy, that I let it pass.
4. He introduced me to his family -ie his father and stepmother and his sister. I was overjoyed (pathetic) to have been asked and took it as a sign that we were in a committed relationship – on both occasions though, he asked me to not park on his drive before we set off because “he didn’t want his youngest son to know I was going”. This, despite the fact that his son had been invited but had said he would rather stay home…again he said he “didn’t want to hurt their feelings”. So, despite feeling uncomfortable, I parked around the corner. Half way there, I asked what his family knew about me coming…he replied, “they don’t”. I was shocked and said that it was going to be embarrassing and that felt uncomfortable. He said nothing, that it was ok. So, he turned up with a complete stranger in tow. Luckily, Im a friendly, adaptable person and they liked me, but seriously, what was that all about??? In hindsight I wonder whether he was just wanting to show me off, show he can still pull etc etc? On the second visit, half way there my phone buzzed with a facebook notification (I was friends with his sister on there and she had tagged both me and him in a status as we were heading down). By the time I went to comment, the status had disappeared. He completely denied asking her to remove it, but he had been furiously texting, and when I later asked her she muttered something vague about her “phone playing up”.
5. He wouldn’t add me on Facebook. I appreciate that there are mixed thoughts on this but his reasons ranged from “I don’t use it” (lie, he did), to “it causes problems between couples” to “I don’t want everyone knowing my business” (unless it suited him of course) to (and I put words in his mouth here) “he didn’t want his kids to see me on there” (he nodded wildly when I gave him that little gift wrapped excuse). He claimed he had hardly any friends and that he only added people who meant something to him…which was true, he had around friends, many of whom were pretty young things he worked with. In hindsight – he did eventually add me (when he was drunk and feeling amenable one night)and I was able to see that he DID use it, and in fact had checked in at many many many places we had been at together but not made a single reference to me – I am pretty certain that he didn’t want me on there because as I discovered, his sister (who friended me) was friends on FB with his ex. Even when he did add me, two things happened – 1. He asked me not to tag him anything or post any photos of us 2. he started to post the most laddish statuses (not his typical status when I looked back) about needing a drinking buddy as his mate was going away (who should not have any lame excuses about having girlfriend). I responded, desperately trying to show that I was part of his life but he responded generally and didn’t acknowledge anything I said directly. I posted a song that I knew was significant to him, with a question – he replied to that question by text message. He did NOT want to acknowledge who I was on there.
6. On a night out with him a mate of his – we came out of a bar to be passed by a group of young girls, one of whom was dressed in hot pants and had VERY long legs. He remarked openly and lewdly, to his mate, as though I didn’t exist. When I expressed how innappropriate I thought it was, he said, “oh don’t be stupid, with legs like that you want to get looked at…let’s follow her”. His mate showed more concern for his feelings than me. However,his mate was all over me that night, and at the end of the night (when much drinking he had been done), he suggested a threesome. My EUM would NOT have turned it down – I did.
7. Of course, all of this made me ridiculously insecure and clingy – I obsessively checked his facebook and IM for signs he was cheating and regularly tried to talk to him about how I was feeling. His responses to my requests for reassurance ranged from telling me to “go to sleep”, to “stop being paranoid” to “how does your mind work” to “you are off the scale with trust issues”. I believed him, and tried my hardest to squash the feelings, as though into a jack in the box…but they kept bursting out and manifesting themselves into needy, excessively insecure outbursts. I should have got out.
There is more, but I am sure you get the picture. What a tough lesson, he had told me he loved me, we were physically so close, I thought I was in love with him but I realise now I wasn’t.I was in love with the challenge of him, the reflection of the relationship with my dad(s) of him, the desperate need for validation and a million other things NONE of which are good and healthy.
So now, it’s time for a HUGE change. I am 44, I can no longer allow myself to allow my past to become an excuse for this kind of behaviour (on my part). I need to learn to truly love myself (as I never have, ever…although I was pretty much told I was unloveable in various ways throughout my childhood, adolecence and beyond) but I now have the knowledge that has been missing, thanks to this AMAZING site. Thank you so much.
Oh, and by the way..he ended it (because I was too pathetic to). After a very drunken last weekend with him, where he drunk drove to work after 3 hours sleep following 15 pint, despite my protests…rescuing him from his toilet having fallen asleep on it…I STILL wanted him, but forced the issue by emailing him yet another “define the relationship” email. He left it a week, then ended it, eventually. No contact now for two weeks. It hurts, my brain ping pongs between knowing the truth and blaming myself but I will get there!!
AtheP, when a poster presents their story I try to figure out what they need. Do they post because they are emotionally hurting and need advice on how to cope, or are they offering advice to others emotionally hurting, or are they just presenting their situation as a personal catharsis.
I try to put together the facts as presented. So after reading your 2 posts today many times I tell myself, here is a 44 yr. old divorcee with kids who was “at a loose end” and went drinking with a total stranger after chatting on the internet with him for half and hour.He has been involved with another woman for 20 years, not married or divorced but fathered children by her that he raises. She is “the mother of my children” and he is “very damaged” ( but good looking!)He wants sex and drinking with you (and others) and when you want him to “define the relationship” he exits, because, “what makes you think she was my girlfriend”. (sorry, you weren’t). My very first thought was, thank God he only did this to her for 4 months. His children for 4 years in crazy town.
I have a hunch this was your aha relationship, that now you are starting the process to examine yourself, your needs, your historical choices to plan a healthy future. You found this site. We have all done silly things for the attention of a man, now time to grow up. All of us better late than never.
But…perhaps the light bulb has gone off, you are here, you admit it’s a tough lesson.
AmandathePanda,
I’m glad you found BR. He is a using, disrespectful pig. Keep reading what you just wrote and don’t go back. You’ve found the right place; we can support you.
My God, AmandathePanda. Seems you are all about giving up your personal power to other people. I hear you saying “Here. I’ll lay down in front of you as a doormat, but you will prove I am special by walking around me instead of wiping your feet on me!” But….lo and behold…everyone wipes their muddy grimy feet on you. So you run after them, lay down again and wait for that proof-of-love from them. It never comes. And then they start letting the dog pee on you too!
But at the end of your post, you did acknowledge that these issues are not with them, the issues are with yourself and what you allow.
This guy is obviously a player who trolls the online world for willing victims. His behavior says he is very successful at it. He is so successful that his family knows to disregard any one he “brings” to gatherings and his friends know the woman is just a toy so why not hit on her too. They are probably batting 500 on the threesome request. So many women say yes to that trying to provoke jealousy. Desperately needing to see that he cares enough to be jealous.
He is a loser/user who gets off on treating women badly. He played you like a banjo with that “are you afraid to trust” line on your first meeting. The ‘ol “put her on the defensive road to prove she trusts me blindly” ploy. The response to are you a trusting person is “Trust is earned over time, by actions”.
Only YOU can stop him from treating you badly. You do that by ending all contact with him. Permanently. It’s the only way.
But your last lines tell me you are not ready for that. Asking him to “define the relationship”. Really? You really have to hear him say …?…..“I treat you like shit and you take it”.
AmandathePanda, don’t blame yourself for his behavior. Matter of fact…stop using the word BLAME. Meaning don’t blame yourself for allowing it. We are creatures of habit and habits require effort to break and re-form. First, the habit has to be recognized. You have done that. Let the healing begin.
Elgie, Simple Pleasures and Lily thank you so much for your responses. It is slowly sinking in..the further away from him I get the more I realise that this was all about her. The last weekend at his, seeing a wardrobe FULL of her clothes at his made me realise that she had not been “gone” from his life for four years and, knowing as I do what work it takes to get over a long term relationship (especially a dysfunctional one) he and his ex have done NONE of that. .they are still entangled with each other. He expressed current pain at the things that happened in their relationship, the fact she had a little girl by another man, called her a psycho, yet she brought flowers round for his gran’s birthday and he would fix her thermostat for her! I was round one day when he was working at home, and her car pulled up outside. He disappeared for a while, and came back to say the little girl had just wanted to say hi to her stepbrother and that she (his ex) hadn’t come in. I felt uncomfortable, but squashed it…but its pretty obvious that if my car hadn’t been there she would have come in. How often was that happening? I don’t think he was sleeping with her, but I do think he was getting his needs met by me, whilst maintaining his toxic mess of a relationship with her. How stupid was I, how unassertive to not walk away when I saw these things? He would mock me for questioning it….but as unhealthy as my involvement with him was, at least I could see it and am out of it now. What healthy woman is going to be ok with that arrangement?