Over the years I’ve found that when it comes to making the decision to end a relationship and move on, there’s this misguided belief that you have to 1) hate/dislike someone 2) have no feelings for them or 3) find something wrong with them before you can break up.
What isn’t realised though is that by holding onto this belief, it means that not only is there a possibility that things may get a bit ‘extreme’ in the relationship, but that you’d almost want to mentally divorce yourself from the person while you’re still in the relationship, ‘grieve’, then say “sayonara”, and then skip off and move onto someone else. I imagine that it’s what those people who say dismissively “Oh it was over for weeks/months/years before I left” mean…
While there are of course relationships that don’t work out because feelings change, invariably the main reasons why relationships end is that irrespective of whatever feelings exist, you’re potentially two right for each other people behaving in counterproductive ways that eventually render you incompatible, or it may be just that you want different things (you don’t share the same values), they’re busting up your boundaries, displaying code amber and red behaviour etc, ultimately making you both incompatible. All of these things can happen without you hating their guts, being emotionally bankrupted, or even doing something so heinously wrong.
Classic examples of these situations:
While they may not say it out loud, many cheaters are waiting for their partner to do something so ‘bad’ that it would give them a legitimate reason to leave without saying ‘I’ve been cheating on you’.
Assuming that because you still have feelings for an ex and are even still hurting that the level of what you feel equates to how right the relationship/person is for you and using it as a sign that you should go back.
Remaining in the relationship because your trigger for ending it, is when you damn well near hate their guts or your spirit has become so broken you have no feelings left for them anyway.
Post breakup pretty much ‘villanising’ your ex which once you realise that you’ve been doing it may cause intense confusion and desire to go back because you then fixate on their ‘good points’.
Letting ‘good points’ totally override things that you have genuine concerns about in your relationship…even if the good points are being somewhat overvalued.
It’s dangerous to rely on extreme negative feelings as a benchmark for exiting, simply because there may already be a million and one reasons in existence before you even focus on how you feel. There are enough famous examples of less than exemplary people on this planet who have still had people love and even idolise them. I’ve read enough tales of people loving someone who treats them in a very less than manner that it’s quite obvious that what you can perceive as ‘love’ isn’t intrinsically linked to whether you should be together.
This reminds me of when a reader said to me that she hadn’t been faring too well on her own so she decided that it was the right thing to get back together with the ex that she’d hadn’t been faring too well with. The two things don’t match! They’re not even linked!
Just because you’re miserable on your own, doesn’t mean that the solution is to go and be miserable with someone else.
Likewise, just because you still have feelings for someone and they don’t bring out the same level of revulsion in you that a serious criminal would, it doesn’t mean you should be together.
Love, or what we perceive our love to be of someone doesn’t act as some sort of quality assuring, people picker. It’s like assuming “Hey, I don’t need to do any personal growth, have any common sense, use any judgement, have self-esteem, knowledge of boundaries and shady behaviour because I’ve got my love detector to identify who I should be with”.
Just like if you meet someone who is in possession of physical attributes, characteristics and qualities or even common interests that you find attractive and then over-correlate this information to the rest of them and assume that they’re a perfect match for you, when you assume that certain feelings will tell you when to take a parachute and jump, you’re giving yourself waaaaay too much credit.
Bearing in mind that some people mistake sexual connection for a love connection, are co-dependent, don’t like/love themselves, are attracted because of the person reflects unhealthy beliefs or an unhealthy pattern and may even be like an unhealthy parent, are ‘hooked’ on something that keeps them fixated on their partner, are dating out of loneliness, fear of it being the last chance saloon, collecting attention, and the list goes on, using what may actually be unhealthy feelings as your basis to stay, is a messy one way track to pain.
Because so many people use ‘extremes’ as a basis for leaving, they end up knee deep in unhealthy situations that they then find it very difficult to extricate themselves from.
In fact, this whole “I must hate their frickin guts / have no feelings left for them before I can leave or be done with them” malarky is the trying to think and feel things out to 100%. Some of you are literally waiting around for things to be ‘100% bad’.
Judging by the amount of people that listen to a lot of BS excuses, engage in denying, rationalising, and minimising, avoid making decisions, are afraid of rejection so avoiding it, have little or no boundaries, are not aware of unhealthy relationship behaviours and signs of disinterest, are hearing but not listening, it’s clear that relying on having no feelings or excessive dislike makes their 100% rather subjective – I’ve literally seen some people claim to love their partners more the worse they’re treated.
It’s very difficult to divide people up into the ‘good’ and ‘bad’ pile and the truth is that if you go to the trouble of ‘villanising’ a partner, you only end up making yourself feel like crap because internally or even out loud you’ll be saying “Jaysus, what the frick is wrong with me why I’d love someone so awful?” and then you’ll remember a good point and latch onto that and romanticise it.
Even when people have been involved with complete assclowns, they’ve had their ‘good days’ and ‘good times’. It’s true when they say that you can’t just switch off your feelings and by the same token, I don’t think you have to rustle up hate or overwhelming dislike in order to break up or move on, although I do believe that where you have been treated inappropriately, it’s important to get angry as part of the process of grieving the loss of the relationship and moving forward.
It’s also important to remember: Good, nice, kind, decent, happy, respectful, caring, loving, trusting and trustworthy people break up. Yes, really. It doesn’t have to get all Ike and Tina!
Better to keep it real, have good self-esteem, and recognise when a relationship isn’t working for you.
If you try to get to a point of hating / immensely disliking someone or looking for them to do something that you deem as ‘wrong’ enough to warrant you giving them the chop, or try to leave on ’empty’, you’re actually dishonouring your own relationship. It’s painful to be involved in a demi-relationship where someone is cruising on a half, quarter, or even drips of feeling – they deserve better, you deserve better.
Equally, you’ve got to know when to fold. Breakups hurt because they’re a loss and it involves the breaking of a relationship – trying to get out without feeling anything is another attempt at a shortcut. At whatever point you leave, it’s going to hurt to an extent so either way you have to deal with those feelings – don’t avoid them or try to get to extremes whether you’re in or out of the relationship.
Your thoughts?
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Ugh – may be like an unhealthy parent – BINGO! I cannot tell you how freaked I was preparing for my mother’s memorial going through all the pictures for the slideshow when I saw the picture of my step-father – long since gone. Total creep out. In the picture he was the same age as the ExEUM/AC and THEY COULD HAVE BEEN BROTHERS. ICKY!!!!!! Had to take a shower that just felt well WRONG! Ok I get it… Just more reassurance that getting out and far away was the best decision EVER!!!! NC 4 years now and am a grateful recovering work in progress! Movin on never felt so good!!!!!
OK *that* would weird me out to see the photo! Mind you, I was with someone recently and met their boyfriend who looks and behaves like their scary mother…. Thankfully it’s over now! Keep moving!
So glad for you Movedup! I was feeling the same all 9 months, till two days ago…I received a text from AC and I came back to squire ONE! After reading NML’s books and posts I was able to say “final goodbye” to AC and here I am ….I have to admit I still LOVE him and WANT him, and no man can take this from me:-( I really tried to ignore him, but I just cannot let it go. What a waste of all my efforts, I am gutted!
“It’s very difficult to divide people up into the ‘good’ and ‘bad’ pile and the truth is that if you go to the trouble of ‘villanising’ a partner, you only end up making yourself feel like crap because internally or even out loud you’ll be saying “Jaysus, what the frick is wrong with me why I’d love someone so awful?” and then you’ll remember a good point and latch onto that and romanticise it.”
I’ve done that for the past few months and it may be one of the reasons why my brain is constantly stirring over this breakup. I would be angry at him for the way he treated me then I would remember good things about him and miss him.
He broke up with me over text message and proceeded to cut me out of his life for 5 days just because I got upset that he hadn’t called me back one day. When I finally spoke to him about it all he said was that “it had been building for a long time” I saw signs of disinterest, that’s one of the reasons why we fought and why I was so tense. He was waiting for a way out. I don’t know how he felt about me at the end; it doesn’t matter now. I want to be able to heal and move on without vilanising him or MYSELF because I’ve done that in spades.
Despite all the sad details and EUM behavior I have to accept the hard fact that the theme of why we didn’t work out was plain incompatibility.
Hi Donna, unfortunately in any breakup, no matter how much of an asshole they were, you can if you really want to, find at least one good thing or a memory to latch onto. Whatever good times you both had and whatever good points he does have, they just don’t even begin to outweigh his treatment of you. They don’t. And yes, when you get down to the nuts and bolts of it, you’re not compatible. Aside from having different values, you’re no longer compatible with bullshit or being treated poorly. There you are trying to move mountains and twisting yourself into a pretzel, and this guy won’t even move dust. Purlease. In future, don’t have all these ideas and plans about what you’re going to be and do to accommodate someone when the foundations and them behaving in a mutual manner is not in existence. This man does not live congruent with his values and he’s a bit of a cherry picker, claiming values one day, going against it another. You could never trust this man. He’s just not that special and believe me when I say with 1000% certainty that his problems existed long before you came along.
Donna,
He didn’t break up with you and cut you out of his life because you got upset!!!
He did it because of his own feelings, for his own reasons, but you simply being upset wouldn’t drive an emotionally healthy person away and cause him to hurt you. Jus’ sayin’.
Thank you, Nat and Sunshine.
This has been really tough, and I seem to take 2 steps forward and 1 step back in the healing process. I absolutely was twisting myself in various ways but got nothing in return. I feel spent. I’m 36 and should have known better.
“Letting ‘good points’ totally override things that you have genuine concerns about in your relationship…even if the good points are being somewhat overvalued.”
Been there, done that! With my ex, I would claim to my friends, family and even myself that everything was so wonderful (it actually sucked). Denial is such a powerful thing. It always went appallingly wrong, but I wouldn’t actually say I was leaving him until he disappeared. Seriously, does that even make any freakin’ sense? Noooooo. I would put up with crap/glaring red flags but the only thing that was “bad enough” for me to say I was done with it was if he was straight up ignoring me. I mean, really. I thought I was so “in love” with him the whole time (that whole time being 5 years – highly embarassing) and the only way to get him to give me a relationship was to prove how worthy I was of him respecting me…by telling him to beat it after he’d dropped me anyway. It was like the Dysfunction Olympics and, I, Natasha won the Gold Medal in the category known as “The 5 Year Dumbass Relay”. (You won’t see that on ESPN.) My two speeds with this dude were to either put his assclown self on a pedestal and “blow smoke up his bum” or to say basically, “I loooooove him, but he doesn’t loooove me. Why, why is he using me? Why does he insult me? He’s so meaaaaaaaaan.” Much more productive from a moving on standpoint to just say, “WRONG GUY.”
I know what you mean. I spent the last year and a half with an EUM who, while we did have some good fun times, and he could really chat up a storm (hysterically, too), and every now and again, throw me an emotional “bone”, for the most part the relationship was, as my sister would say, “Meh.”
No fights. Disagreements were usually in jest. But the constant “advice”, or comparisons to his old loves, or telling me about women he thought he would like to fool around with (using the old line, “I just wanted to be honest with you…” As if.), constantly competing with me (Me: I had such a busy day! Him: My day was busier/harder/more draining…). Dealing with his mood swings, constantly reassuring him that life is good, tomorrow is a better day, he’s a good dad, etc. yet getting NOTHING in return.
So I stayed…and stayed…and stayed. Found myself having to have a glass or two of wine before our dates, just to give me the impetus to leave the house.
He ‘dumped’ me, courtesy of the old line, “I can’t be in a relationship” which was promoted by his AA group. I was on the one hand appalled that he followed their advice, but on the other hand grateful for the out.
I don’t hate him. I think he’s basically a good person, but he needs WAAYYYY too much work. I don’t have the time or energy or patience any more for a one sided relationship.
Yeah Tracy, when you have to drink to get up the bottle to be around him, you know it’s time to take a parachute and jump. It’s never really about the issue of whether they’re a ‘good’ person because ultimately it’s quite subjective. It’s about our personal experience with someone and I know that it’s demoralising to listen to someone give ‘advice’ and comparisons to their ex under a veil of ‘honesty’. He was sucking you dry AND insulting you in the process – FLUSH!
Your comments always make me snort with laughter Natasha! “It was like the Dysfunction Olympics and, I, Natasha won the Gold Medal in the category known as “The 5 Year Dumbass Relay”. (You won’t see that on ESPN.) My two speeds with this dude were to either put his assclown self on a pedestal and “blow smoke up his bum” or to say basically, “I loooooove him, but he doesn’t loooove me.” Hilarious! Many of us have been stuck on the cheating and beating button, as if when it reaches that on the barometer that’s an exit notification. Plenty of shit can go down without those two things happening for you to declare you’re out. You’re well shot of him!
Awwww thanks Nat! At some point, it occurred to me that if I didn’t cut it off for good, I was going to sound like Jude from Bridget Jones’ Diary – the one that opens the first movie bleating about Vile Richard refusing to go on a mini-break. I thought, “Ohmygod, I have puffy eyes. I sound like a sheep. This sh*t has to stop before I become permanently un-sexy.”
I watched things between my parents be incredibly wrong and dysfunctional for years until my Mother had enough of the blatant lies, cheating , disrespect, and put downs. We had broken windows, furniture and knives being thrown around, then silent treatment for weeks, then back to square one, more broken windows and furniture. Towards the end, during one of their fights, my Dad picked up a shotgun and said that he was going to blow his brains out, then walked out to the barn. We (my Mother and I) heard the gun go off and just sat there and looked at each other unit l finally I got up and went out to the barn ( I was 15). He was sitting there with a grin on his face and said he knew I really wanted him to shoot himself. My Mom still stayed for another couple years. Nuts. The end result for me was to have no freakin clue what a healthy relationship looked like and to have distrust for men in general. Throughout my life I have stayed in long past overdue relationships until the extreme drama or violence became overwhelming. Now, at 42, I am learning to let go of unhealthy relationships and friendships. It isn’t easy to leave someone you still feel drawn to even for unhealthy reasons until you start taking yourself seriously and truly want your life to be better, with or without a partner. This takes work and deep digging. I recently left someone after 5 months who I was incredibly attracted to and craved. He had issues, had a dark side, and as Nat put it, more baggage than Heathrow Airport. I dipped my toe in when I knew it was too hot, and yep it stung, so I pulled my toe out and ended it. I still wish things could of been different for him and I but the reality was that it was never going to work. I think of him still but am not devastated and feel good for finally trusting myself and the information in front of me…..and then ACTING. Huge step for me. So, now I have been dating a new man for two months who has been sweet, reliable, and has very similar values as me. We both get a little freaked at how alike we are in so many ways, not just having things in common. It is still very early, but I am keeping my eyes and ears are wide open. I have hopes this time, but will keep my feet planted in reality. No excuses and no staying past the expiration date if things start to sour. Drama and violence don’t spell love.
jenny
I’m shocked by that shotgun story, that’s crazy abusive.
My counsellor told me several times that I have an “extraordinarily long fuse”. There seems to be no end to how much we put up with when we’ve had to experience and normalise in our heads crazy shit like this. It’s understandable that we don’t leave until we HATE them. And even then we will still stick around!
I’m in my 40s too and I think it’s a terrific age for women, especially these days. It can take such a long time for us to step out of the shadows but when we do life is so much brighter.
Jennynic, talk about earlylife modelling that says no behaviour is too terrible! Your story shocked me, too, for the sheer cruelty you experienced, the position you were put in having to go out there alone at 15; the self-hatred of your father; the self-defeat of yr mom. Really, with some of our backgrounds, it is amazing that we ever come to believe we deserve more than simply not being shoved around or cheated on. I am heartened by your stories of being able to disengage from the incompatible guy despite being so attracted, and of the start of a new possibility. Thanks.
Jennynic, I have a great deal of admiration for you, not least because over the past few months I hear a different tone to your comments and you are fighting for yourself and to surpass your previous experiences. The mental images and feelings that went through me when I read your comment – those are terrifying experiences and your parents certainly normalised poor behaviour for you before you were even a fully grown adult trying to forge relationships. Myself and a number of my friends have long said that we only wish our parents hadn’t ‘stayed together for the kids’ (read: stayed in their comfort zone and said it was the kids) because we’d all rather have missed out on the Ike & Tina show live and avoided witnessing or even experiencing things that no child ever should have. You get taught from a young age to go out there and smile to the outside world so you lose sight of not only what’s appropriate but what you even feel because you get used to playing a role. Other people leave when they hear the sound of the ‘train’ coming signalling that they need to get the hell out of dodge. Others leave when the train is literally about to run them down and they suddenly realise “Oh shit! I really am in danger”. I’m glad you’re happy and I’m even gladder that you let go of the other guy. Hugs x
True, dysfunctional parents can do extensive harm to their children by staying together. I would of had a completely different life if they had divorced early on. Fact is, they still aren’t divorced….just haven’t see or talked to each other in 24 years. My Mother still avoids revisiting that whole thing and my Dad had a million girlfriends during the marriage, so being married meant nothing to him anyway. I haven’t talked to him in at least 15 years but my Mom and I are like sisters. I feel so bad when I think back about her life and how much she lost by staying with my Dad. She has been in a relationship now for 20 years with the same man. He is good to her but is an alcoholic. She accepts this because although not ideal, he is better that my father. She still isn’t really happy.
“The end result for me was to have no freakin clue what a healthy relationship looked like and to have distrust for men in general.”
Yep, as well would not know one if it slapped me in the face.
On a personal note: Your story touched me so and the cruelty you endured shows just how strong you are.
Jenny, I just wanted to say that I respect the hell out of you for being the strong, caring, lovely woman that you are after going through all of that. You deserve all the happiness in the world and, with the self-awareness you have, I have no doubt that you’ll continue to get it. *Big Hugs*
I’ve been on both ends – the person who left a relationship that was truly not right (wanted very different things), but then, because the guy was so apparently relaxed about it being over (which, of course, he wasn’t underneath), couldn’t help but sling some sh*t (but then apologise straight away as I recognised it was simply me not being able to deal with being the person who left, and wanting to get rid of guilt, and, childishly, wanting to see what I meant to him…Cringe) – and the person who is made out to be horribly undesirable – even to the point where the guy (AC) was saying, ‘You’re so kind and reasonable with me, but it’s actually very annoying’ – so that he was able to make sense of ditching me.
What I have realised is that people with childish and unhealthy attachment habits and ridiculous ideas about never wanting to be, or be seen as, the ‘bad person’ don’t handle the beginnings or endings of relationships well. I include myself in this basket, though I can see immense growth here (still a fair way to go! ; )). As you say, Nat, it really doesn’t have to be a prison fight, on top of the natural pain that comes with separation.
“hat I have realised is that people with childish and unhealthy attachment habits and ridiculous ideas about never wanting to be, or be seen as, the ‘bad person’ don’t handle the beginnings or endings of relationships well. ” Amen. I know I’ve said this many times Elle, but your ex is a real piece of work. Only someone with a Ph.d in assholery would try to make being reasonable and kind sound like something dirty and wrong. Twat.
This is perfect timing! My bf and I broke up a couple of months ago. We had been dating over a year and things were getting serious. It was the most easy, fun, relaxing relationship I’ve ever had! I’ve been working on myself and dating for a long time, and when I met him everything fell in to place. Nat is right about how it works! We had a mutual break up because we realized that he wants kids in the future and I don’t. I have 2 kids who are mostly grown, and I just don’t want to start over with that. It has been very hard for both of us. It was a great relationship. But, I realize this issue makes us incompatible. I have thought about getting back together because it is hard and there wasn’t any problems – quite the opposite. I am just trying to remember all the Nat has said and not make excuses to minimalize this. I was strong enough to tell him I think we should move on, I just hope I’m strong enough to keep it that way.
Don’t hope to be strong, *plan* to be strong Sherry. Always remember that if you haven’t resolved the reason for the relationship ending, if you get back together, you’ll assume he’s OK with not having kids and he’ll assume you’re prepared to have kids or one you will end up making a compromise that actually compromises themselves. Kids is a big thing. Not everyone wants them or wants more of them. Yes feelings can change but often they don’t. Our friends who said they don’t want kids haven’t changed their mind – they both feel the same way. My friend who does want kids left the guy that doesn’t and is happier with someone who totally wants the same thing. Ultimately if he was to make the decision to be with someone who doesn’t want kids, that’s a decision he needs to work out for himself. Stay cool and you will have another great relationship again.
Very interesting and thought-provoking point of view. Thank you Natalie!!!
“Assuming that because you still have feelings for an ex and are even still hurting that the level of what you feel equates to how right the relationship/person is for you and using it as a sign that you should go back.” This hits so close to home. I am SO guilty of this right now. Its been about 7 months and I think of my ex every single day – I have to tell myself all the time that just because I think of him and miss him doesn’t mean we’re meant to be (this article reassured me that I’m on the right track with my thinking). I left for a reason and unfortunately (or fortunately according to this article) I left before I started hating him and while I still very much loved him – it did make the break up that much harder. At least though I now can look back and say I gave it my all until the very end…..and didn’t wait until our relationship died a natural death with me still in it, in order for me to finally leave.
I am exactly the same as you Monika.
Its been nearly 2 months since I left mine and I think about him constantly and sometimes I feel like this hurt is so bad sometimes that it must be my mind and body telling me that I made the wrong choice, when in fact its probably just grieving the loss of the relationship and the future I thought I would have with him. Luckily my pride wont let me contact him, and my logic although sometimes over shadowed by emotions, knows exactly why I left him. I have lost all my self esteem and I’m hoping I will get it back, I don’t want to be a victim of this experience. We just wouldn’t have worked out, its as simple as that sometimes. I could have dragged it out like you said Monika, and just let it die before I left but where would that have left me. Probably with even lower self esteem (somehow). They do say unhealthy relationships make you realise and appreciate a healthy relationship when it comes your way, hold on to hope Monika, that’s what I’m trying to do
Grieving a relationship is tough Steph and so what you’re experiencing is natural. Work your way through the feelings, don’t avoid them, cry, yell, scream, feel crappy – you’re entitled to all of these feelings. Just go with it. It will get better. The amount of times I’ve said I’ll never get over the hurt, I realised in retrospect that I was talking out of my bum as clearly I did. At the time of course it feels entirely different.
“Luckily my pride wont let me contact him” – thank goodness for that 🙂 If you did break NC, trust me, your self esteem would be shot even more. I did it once – I called him and did not get the reaction I expected – I was left licking my bruised ego for weeks after that. It really set me back.
Natalie is right, it does get better. Keep staying strong – I trust that if the universe means for two people to be together, life will help you find your ways back to each other when the time is right and after you’ve had time to grieve so you can look at everything from a more objective perspective (at least that is what I tell myself when I’m really feeling down and want to remain sane :).
Very true Monika and as long as you’re behind your decision and continue to validate it, you will move through the loss of your relationship. Breakups hurt – that’s a foregone conclusion. If it didn’t hurt you’d have to wonder if you really were that bonded in the first place.
I know a lot of people who fall into the trap of “it’s better to be miserable with a partner than be unhappy on your own.” Being single is a wonderful opportunity to seek self-awareness and really find out who you are and what makes you tick. I’ve been doing that over the past year or so and I can finally say I am content with myself and am not looking out for a man to make me feel better. I used to always use men to fill some void inside of me and that is too much to ask of anyone. Now I am filling myself up and funny enough I don’t feel as though I need a man. In fact, I now feel like having a partner might infringe on my freedom and I’m not sure if I want that! Amazing turnaround which only came with time and truly seeking spiritual self-awareness.
“Being single is a wonderful opportunity to seek self-awareness and really find out who you are and what makes you tick.” Very well said Feast To Famine – being single isn’t that pain in the arse period between your next [bad] relationship!
I think this so describes where I am at in life perfectly! My friends and family have now become worried about me, because I am not in a relationship or breaking my back to get into another relationship. I have truly enjoyed this last 16 months of my life just figuring myself out. I’ve been happy in a way that I’ve never been happy before and I feel so good and content, that I too now don’t want someone infringing on the new me. I know at some point I will get into a relationship, but I know now that it’ll be far healthier than anything I’ve had in the past, because for once I’m filling myself up and not using someone as a busted crutch. In the meantime I’ve been finally accepting myself, opting out of situations that don’t respect me or my boundaries, and I’ve been taking full responsibility and care of myself. The result has been a happier me, who now pays attention to code amber and red flags and immediately. I no longer convience myself that what I see doesn’t exsist. It feels good to finally like and love myself!
Wow! This is just what I needed today. I’m 3+weeks into NC and struggling a little. Though I know I have done the right thing, sometimes you second-guess yourself, or when you’re feeling low, you start thinking about all the good things (or 5 good things out of 100 bad ones!).
This sentence below alone has helped me heaps so thank you!
“Assuming that because you still have feelings for an ex and are even still hurting that the level of what you feel equates to how right the relationship/person is for you and using it as a sign that you should go back.”
I know he is so not right and our “relationship” was really a joke. So, no, there is no chance I will break NC. Thanks again!
Keep the faith Poppies! It *will* get better!
I can relate to this post. And as much as I am ashamed to say it, it’s my story and what I did…..
“While they may not say it out loud, many cheaters are waiting for their partner to do something so ‘bad’ that it would give them a legitimate reason to leave without saying ‘I’ve been cheating on you’.”
I never had sex with anyone or did anything sexual with anyone else when I was in my last long term, more good than not, relationship. BUT, I knew the moment I met him in person (we started chatting on myspace then talking on the phone) that I did not want to be with him. So what did I do? I shoved that down and went along anyway for several years!!! This was nearly six years ago when we initially met, probably more. The guy was better to me than the other assholios I’d been involved with so I hung on for dear life. I never thought I’d ever do anything to intentionally hurt him. Until I met the EUM that popped back into my life recently that is now married. Another thing is back then, and it’s tapering off now, is that I had to have the attention of almost any male I found slightly interesting. Even if I was dating someone. The more attention, the better I felt about myself.
We had the emotional affair back then. I think a big reason I did that was because I could not bring myself to leave my boyfriend. I would have done my boyfriend and I a big favor had I stopped it before it began when I first met him. When my gut told me don’t go there. But I did not want to hurt his feelings. Huh. He sure got real hurt in the end. Not that I’m shrugging off anything he did. But this was my part of it. I even remember someone close to me saying “he doesn’t have to do something wrong in order to have a reason to go. Sometimes people just break up.” But I thought there had to be this big drama or something majorly wrong other than a simple This Isn’t Working For Me. So I know better now. Though I still have moments where I miss some of the things we did together terribly, I know I could not go back and be with him because it just isn’t there. I’d be selling myself out. And he deserves someone that is as into him as he is to her. So do I. My new favorite word is: NEXT.
“I thought there had to be this big drama or something majorly wrong other than a simple This Isn’t Working For Me. ” Very well said Colororange. It’s really important that we listen to ourselves because people do what you did for several years for a decade or two or more. It’s like living a half life and each party deserves better. Next indeed!
Great post. Mea very culpa!
Seriously, if I had listened to myself and walked at the first feeling of creepy I would never have gotten into my last two major involvements and would have saved myself a lot of damage. I literally had to see them as abusive before I would leave.
Did I villainize guys who were actually not so bad? Sometimes I wonder. Was he really flirting with that other woman right in front of me? Or was I hypersensitive, and self-sabotaging, and wanting to make him into a bad guy to fulfil that self-fulfilling prophecy that said I wouldn’t ever find love? A bit of both, likely.
I realized that if I needed a guy to be downright abusive, or criminal, before it was “okay to throw away what I had,” I was f*cked. I found myself in a situation where I was asking myself if I needed proof that the guy I was with seemed capable of going for underage girls. I mean, wtf?? I realized it had to be okay for me to just decide my less-than-stellar feelings about him were enough to end it.
I come from a home life where my mom did not leave my dad, despite his behaviour that to me is inappropriate. The message from home was that “a bit” of meanness isn’t enough to up and leave. So dad’s a bit of an ass at times. Just ignore or placate, was the message. I decided to fight back, but that still left me with a high tolerance for, and expectation of, conflict and disrespect in my relationships with men.
It has taken a lot of learning, and building of self-esteem, to believe I can say ‘no’ just because I don’t feel it with a certain person. There are a lot of people who will tell you if he’s not Ike Turner then be happy with what you’ve got.
Sometimes you to be brave enough to let go of people you don’t outright hate. The exAC’s wealth and connections overrode my initial dislike of the guy. If I had been strong enough to value my own happiness over the potential for status, I would have seen we were a weak fit and sighed and moved on. Instead, I now have had the mindf*ck experience of wondering whether I was attracted to/sleeping with a molester.
There was no need for it to go that far! Had I loved myself at the time it never would have.
“I come from a home life where my mom did not leave my dad, despite his behaviour that to me is inappropriate. The message from home was that “a bit” of meanness isn’t enough to up and leave.’ This is so spot on and much as we may love our parents, they come from an era that has taught millions of people that you don’t leave unless it’s horrendous and for some, you don’t leave *ever*. It’s like seeing a bad commitment through to the bitter end. “There was no need for it to go that far! Had I loved myself at the time it never would have.” – Another corker of an insight. I concur – if I’d loved myself, almost all of my previous relationships wouldn’t have happened!
So true. I had the same experience with my parents: a father whose behaviour is unacceptable towards my mother and us children, yet I seemed to be the only one who felt it was unacceptable. I’ve stayed in relationships feeling on some level as though I would be a bad person to hurt someone by ending a relationship that wasn’t working for me….lots of emotional repression growing up also means that I find it nearly physically impossible to even find the words and somehow get them out of my mouth.
My father made a comment once reflecting this belief about sticking it out. Regarding my aunt who was engaged once before, he said “well, I still think she’s a good person”–the implication being that anyone who ends a committed relationship *is* a bad person, and that she’s been given some kind of exception. (And this comment in spite of hearing about how this ex-fiancee was quite the jerk!)
Oh yeah! My momster went on and on about how bad divorce was, how bad, selfish and messed up divorced people were, how messed up their children were and how great she and my father were because they stayed together.
Never mind that she created a living hell for me and my dad and that my dad HELPED her create a living hell for ME during all those years.
She actually claimed she was a heroine because she stayed with us, because my dad and I were both (as she claimed) mentally ill and full of flaws. She said she was such a great person because she coped with us instead of running away from two people as horrible as us!
I now say SHE was mentally ill and incredibly flawed and it was us who put up with her (I had no choice, but my dad did).
Just another part of that big fat mess of lies to cover up an unspeakable crime (even if most of it wasn’t illegal).
Somehow, another piece has fallen into place in my mind. Thank you for that.
“I come from a home life where my mom did not leave my dad, despite his behaviour that to me is inappropriate. The message from home was that “a bit” of meanness isn’t enough to up and leave. So dad’s a bit of an ass at times. Just ignore or placate, was the message. I decided to fight back, but that still left me with a high tolerance for, and expectation of, conflict and disrespect in my relationships with men. ”
Magnolia,
The same can be said about my own family life. It’s been over 30 YEARS and my mother STILL SSTTIILLLLLLLLL hangs around my dad, though no where near as much as she used to. Back when she endured horrendous behavior from him. She kept taking him back and taking him back. Now he’s effed his whole life up on drugs/alcohol and jail, that he’ll probably never get anywhere. Makes me ill to see her talking to him these days. There was noo limit to what he could do and she’d put up with all of it. So like you, I’ve had to build this stuff from the ground up because nobody had it to teach me at home. But these days, it seems like I’m getting better. When you go from accepting nearly every kind of behavior to setting limits, it’s a little tricky. Down right scary sometimes too!
It was so useful for me to read this. I´ve had a non-sexual (after some initial snogging), more-than-friends-less-than-lovers relationship with my best male friend for two years. He loves me deeply as a friend and thinks of me as his soulmate, treats me like a princess, but doesn´t want to be my boyfriend – his other best friends, (childhood friends, one male, one female) are telling him he should go for it, but he´s just not ready to do so. He´s dated several other girls after he told me he didn´t want to go for us, although all very briefly, and is a Walking Wounded – tough childhood and sudden breakup with lovely (really, lovely) ex-girlfriend who ran off with another guy (not so lovely). I´ve had a hard time understanding. He says he himself doesn´t understand why he´s not ready for a relationship with me, he just isn´t. The guy writes poetry for me, takes me on trips abroad, babysits my kids (who adore him), visits my family – he´s like my closest family member but he just isn´t in love-love and doesn´t want to be my boyfriend. Finally, after I asked him for the third time if he could reconsider it, he put me – *he* put *me* – on a two-month NC, saying he wanted me to move on and that he c0uldn´t live with holding me back in life, and that unless I was able to accept that we´d be friends only, he suggested I cut him off, for my own sake – but that he hoped we´d could be the best of friends for the years to come. And I went on a trip abroad by myself to deal with it, walking in parks, having nice dinners by myself, and am slowly coming to terms with the fact that he doesn´t want a relationship = incompatibility. I know it´s obvious. But sometimes it´s hard to get it.
Em
Hmm, let’s not go too far the other way and completely write down their crappy behaviour as incompatibility/just one of those things. Two years is a long time to keep someone in your life that you know wants more. And it seems like he was reaping a lot of benefits.
It kind of goes against the spirit of Nat’s post, but by not recognising when we’ve been mistreated we can stay quite stuck. It’s the elephant in the room. And by mistreatment I don’t necessarily mean being pushed around or insulted. It can be quite subtle. Subtle can be worse , you can’t quite get a handle on it. I know they aren’t the only choices but I think I’d rather be punched than headf*cked. (I’ve experienced both).
But, still, do what works for you. I feel that my heart may be too hardened against the EU!
Grace,
thanks 🙂 I guess there´s a not-so-nice aspect to it, but he´s really made an effort to be truthful, and I should have seen the truth a long time ago. We were close friends long before he was dumped, then snogged a month or so after he became single (I was also recently single). Then he took me out for dinner and told me that he wasn´t ready for a relationship, and that he wouldn´t want to mess around with someone so dear to him. And told me that he understood if this meant I didn´t want to be around him any longer, understood that he had given me the impression it´d now be us, and that he had honestly thought for a while that it would, but that he wasn´t ready. And was worried he´d ruined our friendship.
After that, two years of even closer friendship and occasionally having the Big Conversation initiated by me – where he once said that I do often think I should have gone for you, Em, that I am crazy not to, but I just don´t feel the romance. I am not crazy about you. And you´re attractive, I have no problem seeing that, but still I´m not crazy about you sexually either. I do not understand it myself, why I don´t feel that way about you. You´d be my ideal girlfriend. But I want to be in love. I want to be so much in love that I´m not scared of starting a new relationship.
This should have been my ticket for the departure. Love has to be mutual. And I have – finally – realised that I don´t want to be with a man who doesn´t want me.
I must say, though, that if he´d taken what – clearly and undoubtedly – was on offer and slept with me regularly during those two years, I wouldn´t have been able to be best friends with him today – I think it would have ended much earlier. I blush to think of it, but I once told him that his lack of sexual advances towards me was damaging to my self-confidence. And he replied: If we´d begun to have sex – and we could have, there´s nothing unattractive about you – I wouldn´t have been able to hold back. And we would have become a couple. And I said yes? And he said: Which I don´t want, remember? Because I don´t think it would last. Because I am not in love with you.
So I need to learn to move on even if I don´t hate someone or am out of love, if what I get isn´t an actual relationship.
This is a very messy situation Em and to be honest with you, you don’t ever want to be in the position of feeling like you had to ride someone’s arse like Zorro in order for them to ‘choose’ you. You’re not trying to sell your house, insurance, or get a job. You shouldn’t be trying to convince him to reconsider you. I’m sure he’s a nice guy and yada yada yada, but he’s just not THAT special. I read your comment and was like “Who the frick does he think he is?” How magnanimous of him to tell you that he thinks you should cut him off. It’s like getting you hooked on crack and then saying that he won’t stop trying to offer you crack so for your own sake, if you don’t have the strength to tell him to bog off and not take crack, it’s best you cut him off. He’s not ready for a relationship equals he’s unavailable equals he’s not available for a healthy relationship. I;m sure you’ve had a wonderful time but the show’s over and you need to get your feelings in check because until you do, you cannot be friends – you’d have a hidden agenda. You deserve better than someone playing house and dangling a demi relationship under a guise of friendship. Take him off his pedestal and stop selling yourself short.
Ha! I needed to hear that. Your comment about who he thinks he is made me laugh – I guess I´ve taken a not so minor role in inflating that ego. Thanks for that mental image, I will see myself all dressed up as Zorro now, whenever I feel like chasing him. Oh, boy. I always put them on a pedestal. Currently trying to get my feelings in check – there are several hours every day now when I feel that I am over it – and that´s new and very liberating – but then I have a fallback. Why, it IS like a drug!
Thanks for the feedback! Will think of myself as Zorro whenever I think of chasing him 😉
@Em:
“I do often think I should have gone for you, Em, that I am crazy not to, but I just don´t feel the romance. I am not crazy about you. And you´re attractive, I have no problem seeing that, but still I´m not crazy about you sexually either. I do not understand it myself, why I don´t feel that way about you. You´d be my ideal girlfriend. But I want to be in love. I want to be so much in love that I´m not scared of starting a new relationship. ”
Oh Em, this is almost exactly what I got from the EU ex. Exactly. It’s like there’s a script out there that they find on the internet and memorise.
But really, it’s just a way of saying ‘You’re not quite good enough for me’, and it hurts like hell.
I agree with Natalie – don’t chase him; it’s not your job. If he’s just not THAT into you, he can get his hands off you, and his tongue out of your mouth, and the hell out of your life, and go and find the Woman Of His Dreams, like a real man would.
Maybe they do! Have a script online 🙂
Well, my problem was partly that he didn´t have his tongue in my mouth 🙂 We´ve had a platonic relationship for the past two years, and after I told him to stop flirting with me, stop looking at me like that (with so much love that people asked if we were together) and stop being all boyfriendy, he´s hardly touched me. He held me close at a memorial service, when I was visibly shaken. He´s taken my arm (not hand) to ensure we didn´t lose each other in a crowd. He´s taken my hand to help me when we´ve been climbing rocks.
Nothing of the kind. He´s just been drowning me in love and attention (as in almost every single day) and then it´s been so hard for me to get over him. He used to be much more physical, but I told him not to do it, cause it kept me interested, and so he stopped. And that´s almost two years ago. And NOW, after this NC phase, I am slowly getting it 🙂 Today I haven´t checked any of the multiple channels of indirect communication (facebook, g+ and others) to look for signs of him.
I dunno about this guy. I don’t think a guy has to be sexually involved with someone to make a woman part of his harem. I’m not saying yours a full-blown N or anything, or even that he does this with multiple women, I’m just saying I’ve seen this behaviour from a dude, with a friend of mine. They went out a few times, he says things like ‘you’d be an ideal girlfriend’, but tells her when she eventually asks where they’re at that he’s not feeling it. They continue for a year of ‘friendship’ where he picks her up at airports, stays in touch while she’s out of the country, spends whole days just him and her hanging out, to the point where a year later she has to ask again – hey, what do we have here? Seems really good. Are you wanting to be together? And him giving her the shut down again. I once dropped her off at a party at his place (after this last talk, they continued to hang out), and the ratio of women to men there was so high I wondered how many of this guy’s ‘friends’ were being treated like my girlfriend. He even asked me, through an online dating site, to come to one of his houseparties. I didn’t want to be part of a harem. My friend seemed to dislike the idea of me hanging out with him, even though they were just ‘friends.’ I thought she was wrapped around his finger for a long time, even after their second talk, and even though all that time there was no sex, no kissing, no bf/gf status at all.
Good for you that you’re NC. If he really was feeling bad about you being led on, then fine. Stay NC until he’s off the pedestal. Sounds like your friend is chasing the zsa zsa zu anyway.
Hi Magnolia,
thanks for your input, that is really interesting. What happened to your friend, eventually?
Part of the reason why I´ve been stuck is that my friend, despite having many other female friends, has made it clear that I´m special and precious to him, and confirmed that by action (and by things his friends and family say; even his ex-girlfriend told me how he´d become really, really fond of me). There are so many things he does for me that has me thinking: Am I this nice to my friends? Am I even this nice to a boyfriend? It´s at the level where I would not have been surprised to find out that he´d polished my shoes while I was in the shower.
NC is working. And it is empowering in other areas as well. All this time and energy I´ve spent on him, is now free for me to spend on me. How sweet! 😉
Em, I’m going to give you a piece of advice that I wish so many women in particular would heed – there is a major problem when the words and actions don’t match.
Many women fall into the trap of two things:
Listening to the words and failing to see that the actions don’t match up.
Disregarding the words and deciding that because in their mind they feel that the person is behaving in a manner that suggests that they feel and intend more than they say, that the actions say relationship.
He is free to treat you in this way *because* he knows that he has told you that a relationship is not on the cards. He has repeatedly managed your expectations and you repeatedly disregard and ignore what he says. You in turn are communicating that he doesn’t know his own mind. He does. He’s told you. It doesn’t matter if you think his reasons are a crock of shit or whether you think he could be fixed in time – he doesn’t want a relationship.
Do you know how many men have sex with, talk to, buy gifts, help out etc women that don’t want a relationship? Millions of them. Your guy just isn’t that special. It is up to you as the person who is responsible for yourself to respect his decision and also respect yourself.
When you do you will realise that while I’m sure that what he’s doing is very nice, he doesn’t want a relationship. Just because you wouldn’t do this stuff for a friend, doesn’t mean others wouldn’t. You’re not the same person. He has his own mind etc.
Likewise stop listening to his friends and family – they’re not him. All this conjecture is basically sending you back to the firing line for him to turn you down. If I listened to well meaning friends and some of my exes family, I’d be saddled up with a jackass still.
Who gives a rats ass what everyone else thinks? You’ve heard it straight from the horses mouth. Does this man realise that his friends and family think he’s incompetent? Of course they want you to keep going back for more – they think you’re great and see what he’s missing out on. But they’re not him.
Always speak to the organ grinder – they’re the person who is in a position to know what’s up and make a decision.
Nat
Ha, the organ grinder!
I used to take some comfort in the fact that the ex-playa’s male friends would call me his girlfriend and introduce me as “this is grace, x’s girlfriend”. This meant a lot to me because a) they were lovely and available to their girlfriends and b) the playa didn’t actually treat me like a girlfriend!
Em
You have freed yourself to meet somone who will find you special AND be proud to be your boyfriend. And you won’t give a flying fig what his female friends or ex-girlfriend think. In fact, there probably won’t even be any. And if there are, they certainly won’t be clucking around him like so many mother hens.
It’s EASY to be nice to someone when you’ll never let someone in, make yourself vulnerable, allow yourself to be obligated and can manage down their expectations while still looking like the good guy. And can walk away at any point.
The reason you, I, and most Tom, Dicks, Harrys, Janes and Marys are less “nice” to be people is not necessarily because we care less. Maybe it’s because we’re MORE careful. Or don’t need the constant validation of people from the opposite sex (or the same sex depending on what rocks your boat). Of course, I may be way off base – I don’t know the guy. And ultimately it doesn’t matter what makes him do what he does.
But I think it’s a truism that 99.9999% of the time these guys are not nearly as great as we think they are. Ironically, the more the woman proclaims his amazing acts of kindness and good points, the less convinced I am!
Natalie,
You don’t have to hate someone to go no contact or end the relationship, but it helps!
I truely detest my ex. He’s not totally evil but who is? He has many nice personality traits but there is no way on this earth that those nice times and great traints can over rule all the buklshit I have listened to from that guy.
Well to be honest Umi, the post wasn’t really about equating anything or anyone to being totally evil. If you detest your ex then this is good – you can move on. Fact is, in the context of the post, many people look for hate as the marker of leaving even if they are actually claiming to like and love someone that abuses them. Equally, if I don’t want to be in a relationship anymore, it’s not really necessary for me to palm off the responsibility of ending it to the other person by hoping they’ll do something wrong enough that let’s me keep my inflated ego in check.
Ooh, that pic is scary.
My relationship history is characterised by my inability to break up until I was so indifferent/bored/full of hatred that I ended up behaving badly by leaving them for someone else, ie cheating. It didn’t actually occur to me that I COULD break up with someone. My “chasing a feeling” and inability to make choices had me being shoved from pillar to post. And then the new man turned out even worse, culminating in the abusive AC and then the playa. We RARELY make rational choices when we’re trying to escape a crap relationship that has depleted our self-esteem. I didn’t cheat on the playa (loved him too much) but had to leave him when even I couldn’t take any more humiliation. That was my epiphany relationship, follwed by an epiphany brush with a MM which finally made me SEE SENSE. I am responsible for my actions. Ding, ding!
Nowadays, I’ve done a 180 and I think it’s better, once you know it’s not going to work, to break up while there’s still some respect and affection. (If there never was any, don’t waste any more time!). There’s no need for the thing to descend into a re-enactment of Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf? It’s better for him and for you.
I loved this in particular “It didn’t actually occur to me that I COULD break up with someone.” It reminded me how we can be trained to feel that because of our low self-esteem, we don’t think we’re entitled to break up. I’ve been very guilty of that. I always had to go out in a blaze of glory because it’s like people ‘like us’ should stick around until it’s so shite that people will believe that we’re entitled to go. We were always entitled to go. It’d be the same reason that we’ve convinced ourselves to like someone that’s shown interest – it’s like you have to reciprocate. Or when I was proposed to and felt that I ‘must’ accept, just because. “I think it’s better, once you know it’s not going to work, to break up while there’s still some respect and affection. (If there never was any, don’t waste any more time!).” Very true!
“I loved this in particular “It didn’t actually occur to me that I COULD break up with someone.” It reminded me how we can be trained to feel that because of our low self-esteem, we don’t think we’re entitled to break up.”
Can you explain this further, Nat? I’ve never really be able to break up with someone–the thought of actually having that conversation, getting the words out, etc.–it just paralyzes me. I chalked it up to difficulty discussing anything involving emotions based on my upbringing, but it never occurred to me that this could be a self-esteem issue.
Many people with low self-esteem carry on like they’re lucky to be in a relationship even if it’s with the biggest assclown on earth. These same people don’t know their own worth and don’t feel it’s their right to have boundaries, to have things that they’re unhappy about or to want to leave. They feel like they’ve got to stick it out to the bitter end but also link it not working out to being a reflection of themselves. They take the idea of a mistake very seriously but also make themselves responsible for things that aren’t their fault but may also feel like they’re a bad person for wanting to end things. Equally many people are afraid of conflict and so they avoid it. Breakups are conflict. Whatever a fear of conflict is tied to such as fear of being disliked, not believing you’re entitled to disagree, remembering negative consequences for expressing your feelings and having boundaries, this may cause you to hang around in a relationship long past its sell by date.
Nat
That’s scarily spot on. I will also add that many with low self-esteem don’t even know what they are thinking and feeling in relationships, much less what they want. I would just follow the line of least resistance while also being compelled to seek validation. I even MARRIED someone without even knowing why.
It’s like being a pin ball – being tossed about from one extreme to another and having no control over it.
Still, those days are long over.
Low-self-esteem = thoughts like:
“I’ll never get a guy any better than this.”
“This guy puts up with a lot from me so shouldn’t I from him?”
“He’s not THAT bad.”
“Who am I to judge this person?”
I never wanted to be the kind of asshole that excluded people from a social circle out of snottiness, and prided myself on my openness to everyone. But openness to *everyone* isn’t kind to the self. Growing up involves having to be discerning. I have confused this discernment with being a snob. Given how little time in life there is for a full-on relationship, this does mean risking going for what we LIKE, not simply resigning ourselves to what’s on offer.
Yeah, it’s painful. I stayed over five years in a relationship that wasn’t right for me simply because I didn’t feel I deserved to ask for what *I* liked. He often told me, when I expressed doubt, that I wouldn’t find any better.
In some ways that has been true, but I’d rather have a cookie with 29 chocolate chips that I confidently picked myself, knowing what I was getting, than one with 30 chips that I held onto out of fear because I believed that left to my own devices there would be no cookies for me.
Wow, talk about paradigm shift. I’ve just had a big aha moment. For some reason my parents have deeply ingrained in me that I cannot leave a job/relationship/friendship without a damn good reason. I cannot just “give up”. In reviewing my dating life I can see on most occasions I left a relationship when I had proof the other person had cheated on me. This proof usually surfaced months or years after I realised deep down that the relationship was over (in one case years later) and I should have called it quits. My mother actually asked me the other day why I was with someone for years. I just realised why…conditioning, florence nightingale and wanting to nurture are just some words that come to mind. That, and I think I was trying to please my parents by being in a relationship with this person. WTF.
I was left scratching my head when one love interest left stating that we were incompatible. I looked for proof of foul play and thought that I must have missed something. Well…I didn’t. What he said in his departure note makes more sense now. If you realise you are incompatible than you can leave. I was always making evidence-based decisions to leave. I’m definitely going to rethink how I enter a relationship and at what point I exit. Natalie, you just verbalised what I was always thinking. Incompatibility is enough of a reason to leave and incompatability is a good enough reason as any and the other person does not have to agree. I just have to be strong enough to apply my learnings in any new relationships.
Things don’t have to reach the stage where one person checks out of a relationship, gives themself a hall pass for five months and keeps the other person around as the interstate long-term girlfriend.
PS i’ve realised the context of the “don’t walk out comment” obviously some reference to my father who ran off to be with his mistress and I’ve held the “you can’t leave easily” value misguidedly for years. It’s interesting where you get your values from isn’t it *sigh* *face plant in palm*
buffy
thanks for the view from the other side.
If we don’t have to hate them to break up .. then they don’t have to hate us to break up with us! There’s no need for us to overdramatise being broken up with (it’s tough enough already). He isn’t doing it because he hates us, or because we are unworthy. Maybe we’re just not … a good couple. Eyeopening indeed.
Excellent comment Buffy esp. “Incompatibility is enough of a reason to leave and incompatability is a good enough reason as any and the other person does not have to agree. I just have to be strong enough to apply my learnings in any new relationships.” Yep, while it would be nice if you could be in mutual agreement about it ending, fact is that breaking up isn’t a democratic decision. Once one person wants out, the other person has to see that in itself as a major indicator that something is wrong.
This as well “For some reason my parents have deeply ingrained in me that I cannot leave a job/relationship/friendship without a damn good reason. I cannot just “give up”. It’s amazing how our beliefs can weave their way through our lives. Next thing we’re in a job we hate, a relationship that deflates us and a friendship that adds nothing to our lives. It’s not giving up – we have to choose where we put our energies. In fact, we constantly have to make choices and we have to know when to fold.
Quote ” if you go to the trouble of ‘villanising’ a partner, you only end up making yourself feel like crap because internally or even out loud you’ll be saying “Jaysus, what the frick is wrong with me why I’d love someone so awful?” and then you’ll remember a good point and latch onto that and romanticise it. ”
I have to disagree. The covert Narcassist is the ultimate con artist. I was shown all the normal things needed for a relationship until it had what it wanted. Then the fake mask dropped and I was shown the evil within. When it was done with me. I was told ” I don’t need you any more. ”
Then I began to see it acting a character, playing a character to seduce it’s victims into a false sense of security ( Everyone it comes in contact with, a new character is played ). It set out to make itself seem like them, so the other person is easier to manipulate and to have them do its bidding. ( Mirroring in order to gain control ). I pointed us out to my daughter and when she saw the parasite working on the next victim to use, new boyfreind, my daughter confirmed it.
For me to vilify such an evil being is not to look at why I loved her. The person I loved was never real, it was just a character it played. The relationship was just a lie on it’s part so it could have what she wanted ( to use and bum off others ). All the while planning its exit and telling others lies to make itself look justified in its actions. I call it ” It ” because it is not human, it is in human form in order to decieve.
The person I loved was never real.
The parasite I hate is pure evil.
It is evil to the point, it is systematically setting out to and succeeding in controlling, destroying and tear down it’s own youngest daughter.
What you have written is very likely to have a lot of significants to thoughs dealing with fairly normal people. The sociopathic using narassist is in a level of it’s own and some other readers may see the same in their own relationship which turned out to be a sham.
Paul, I think you are talking about something entirely different really to fit around your own situation. I said ‘villainising’ *not* ‘vilifying’ – for a start the word I used isn’t a ‘proper’ word and what I mean is going to the trouble of making someone out to be a villain or even someone evil when they’re not. You’re just calling a spade a spade. You can’t exaggerate narcissism – it is what it is. If someone robs me today and I call them a thieving bastard, I’m just telling it like it is. If someone breaks it off with me today and I say that they are or have done things that they haven’t just to make myself feel better about the breakup, *that’s* villainising, incidentally something that most of us do as part of the natural process of grieving. No-one is trying to change what happened to you or say something isn’t what it isn’t but at the end of the day, you don’t need me or anyone else to validate your experience or perception of things. It might be better for you to get behind you instead of projecting something into this setting that doesn’t exist.
Thanks Nat, for clarifying.
Your right. I have a lot of healing to do.
I still have trouble getting my head around the fact such evil beings really do exist.
@Paul: Maybe in your past, too, there was a point when you didn’t yet hate your ex, but when you should have LEFT anyway, because something started to feel wrong. I think that’s what Nat is talking about.
I’m not blaming you for your past. First, if kids are involved, things are VERY complicated. Second, I know how those emotional vampires manipulate people. I grew up with a narcissistic mother who turned my handsome, smart, talented father into a helpless, drunken wreck (of course, he contributed to it by putting up with her abuse forever, and he abused me to “let off steam”).
However, we don’t need to repeat those mistakes. We can learn from the past and from wise people like Nat. We can chose different paths from now on.
I am married to the male version of your wife Paul. He sucked me in, had his own marriage rules, completely took advantage of me and was happy to contiune own with his own agenda until he was found out. As I look back now, I realize he never gave “us” any respect…who was he to decide he was entitled to a confidant and I wasn’t. Surprised he didn’t invite her on our honeymoon too. Now just because he is 20years used to his own rules he can’t understand why he isn’t allowed to have a confidant any more…what’s so wrong with that?
Thank you for this post ~ it came at the perfect time for me!!
No, I shouldn’t have to tell my husband (just because he had his own marriage rules ~ which I found out about recently)…how to treat me. Because of you Nat I was able to drop the perfect one liner basically saying what he thought was acceptable (what I didn’t know about) for all those years isn’t acceptable to me and if he can’t refrain from it then move on because I want nothing to do with it. No, it is not normal to have a person of the opposite sex to confide in and talk to daily. One argument I will not bend on. Shove off…if you can’t get that!!!!!
Bewildered
Hi, I hope you are coping better now. Your comment is interesting; it’s good your letting him know what is acceptable to you and what isn’t but I feel compelled to point out that telling someone what your boundaries are is not the same as actually having them. You can tell a guy till the cows come home what you won’t accept but if you *are* accepting it then your words are meaningless and actually convey the opposite message – boundaries are action based not word based (or they are just a lot of hot air.) Sorry if this if strying from topic. But I think we often do a lot of meaningless talking to stay in relationships where we have been repeatedly disrespected thinking we are “fixing it” or “fixing him”, but you can’t re-train him, bewildered, you can only re-train yourself and know when it’s time for action – not words.
You are soooo right….thank you for reminding me of that Fearless. That’s what is killing me now – my boundaries have never let me down in the past (guys that have treated me less than perfect have gotten the royal boot and I have never once regretted those decisions). Unfortunately I have waited until the sell by date on both. This however, is different because we have been married to for 20 years and have two kids. Typing that at this moment made me realize that because it is different it should have been much different if you get my drift! He was held to a much higher standard.
I will be treated like gold every single day – he do what I ask, when I ask, to rebuild trust….he will meet all of my various other demands on a daily basis without question or he will be asked to leave. Now that it has affected my kids I am pissed off – its not normal for a 14 year old to be in counseling or (last night in fact) to call her Dad stoic. Her vocabulary word of the day that means one who is professedly indifferent to pleasure or pain. Then she says and you wonder why I gave my counselor Mom’s cell phone number and not yours. It never ceases to amaze me how wise she is.
I am working towards indifference with him and then I will move away for good. Each and every day I get closer.
Just read Natalies https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/10-fundamental-lessons-onboundaries-in-relationships-part-1/ from 2009
I think 20 years of my husband having a secret friend pretty much sums up that its his character not a mistake.
Belwidered, forgive me, but the optimum moment to lay down the law with this husband had passed. You have said here a number of times “if” he doesn’t do x y or z he will be asked to leave, yet it sounds to me like you’re still trying to convince him to end his relationship with the other woman (who he appeared to be setting up three way sex sessions with).
“I will be treated like gold every single day – he do what I ask, when I ask, to rebuild trust….he will meet all of my various other demands on a daily basis without question or he will be asked to leave.”
You can threaten him into all that, I suppose, but you can’t make him want to do it, and it seems unreasonable to expect any human being to jump to your every whim as a life long ‘punishment’ – you might find he decides he’d be better off just leaving (imagine how mad you’d be if that happened)
“This however, is different because we have been married to for 20 years and have two kids.” Yes. It demands more effort perhaps on *BOTH* your parts. My sister keeps using that exact phrase when I try to point her towards BR – she is in long term (now mutually verbally abusive relationship) and has a joint mortgage – and a daughter from her previous marriage so it’s “different” for her, she keeps telling me – she can’t just leave. She keeps telling me that it was musch easier for me (to end it with the e EUM cos I had no financial ties with him, which really annoys me co it was not bloody easy at all – still isn’t). I do understand the point, but the relationship still has to be dealt with – and ended if need be.
In this part you seem to have missed a major point in Natalie’s post. That you don’t need to wait for indifference:
“I am working towards indifference with him and then I will move away for good.”
It also occurs: is he to treat you like gold and jump to your every tune while you wait to feel “indifferent” towards him? Why would he stick around for that?
You seem to be contradicting yourself on a number of counts. I know you are in a bit of a “spot” so it’s understandable that it takes time to get clarity but the point ofthis post is to know when to fold even if you are not feeling “indifferent” – few of us are!
Hi Bewildered,
Let me just throw my two cents in with Fearless. I have lots of hope for you, and look forward to seeing you clear-headed, no longer bewildered. Right now I still see you saying the same things you did when you first came to BR: “I won’t accept it!” “I told him!” “He can shove off!” But you’re still with him.
I’m reminded of a relative of mine who would come to our house and complain about her abusive husband. He really was abusive. But no one took her seriously after awhile. She always said, “I told him, I won’t put up with that” or “he can’t do that!!” with an angry tone that expected us to say, yeah, right! he’s an asshole! It was true, he was, but agreeing with her didn’t do a damn thing. If anything, she got to come and dump her anger on us, list off all his sins, feel righteous, and then go right back to him.
When you wrote: “I will be treated like gold every single day – he will do what I ask, when I ask, to rebuild trust….he will meet all of my various other demands on a daily basis without question,” I thought, is she serious??!! Nothing she has said about this guy suggests he will ever do that!
If your situation is at all like my relative’s, the reality was that she didn’t know what the hell she would do with her life if she split up with the guy because he was her financial support, and she had gotten older, and was at a real disadvantage in the job market. Of course her husband knew that, and knew she’d never leave, and so never stopped doing whatever the hell he pleased until the day he kicked it.
If this is your situation, I truly feel for you. The choice is really learning to be on your own, and taking perhaps a severe financial hit in exchange for your freedom and dignity and self-esteem; or staying and trading another 10, 20, 30 years of your life being disrespected in order to not have to face those other challenges.
Here at BR you’ll find all kinds of women who have paid huge prices to reclaim their own dignity. You’ve got company.
You both are soooo right and so is Nat. $1000 down the tubes for counseling, some things have changed and I certainly do have more power and feel a lot more appreciated. Not sure how many times it is going to take to get slapped upside the face by the glaring red flag. It is harder than you think…and financially I will be screwed. Narcissists don’t divorce well. He is not talking to her any longer as far as I know – I am just dealing with the ramifications of him doing whatever the hell he felt like for 20 years….that coupled with his narcissism and inability to convey remorse! Seriously I have lost all trust in the man, and I am completely insecure in our marriage. Spelled out that is not quality of life right there people!!
Had another go around with him this morning….in fact. We were trying to plan a date night….when I changed my mind about where I initially said I would like to go he demanded an explaination….call it over sensitive if you want, but no thanks, I have no desire to go back to the place we used to go and have lots of fun as a couple (or better stated where he was pretending to have lots of fun as a couple) when all along he needed someone else on the side to make him feel good. As I explained to him I am no way healed, just trying to make it work – the real question I need to ask myself and what Natalie clearly outlines is why try with these people who had/have their own agenda?
Bewildered,
I’m sorry but the planned threesome on Craig’s List should have been enough to leave.
This man has shown you who he is by lying. denying and cheating. This man has no character, and never has.
Time to get out, for you and your children’s sake.
Bewildered,
One more point: your husband has had a relationship with this other woman for the entirety of your marriage; why would you think he was going to change? This is who he is! You are really fooling yourself by thinking he can change, as this is the man you married, narcissism and all.
Hon, you’re not doing your kids any favors by keeping them in this environment. I don’t get it???
Nat. LOL, you raised some good points. Now I’ve got Kenny Roger’s “Gambler” in my mind.
You gotta know when to hold em
Know when to fold ’em
Know when to walk away, know when to run
I dont know but for me, it was hard enough to get myself to the point where “I” had to see him for who he truly was. I kept thinking about the person he was when I first met him and how he swept me away. This person lasted about 3-4 weeks until it stopped. Once he started blowing cold and just sending me a text message per day, not returning calls, but yet all the while saying how much he loved me and insisted that he wanted to be in a relationship (and that he and I in fact were in one) it hurt like hell. It hurt like hell to be allowed to think that this person was real, it hurt like hell that I “allowed” myself to be swept away. I know i held onto this vision/illusion of him for a long time and that I in fact *needed* to an extent, create some anger (and perhaps a little hatred) for having been lied to. I am/was so angry about it. For me, I had to find a little of the “hate” in order for me to move from my ROSE colored glasses and all the love that i thought i was feeling. I kept blaming myself and in doing so, it kept me stuck in believing his excuses. All the while I knew i needed to get out, but like a drug- i was addicted and i couldn’t let go. I hated him for that. Its like when they say once you do heroin, that’s it your hooked. I felt like he had given me this without me ever asking and then took it away. How cruel is it to “hook” you and not take any responsibility for it?? And then to string someone along even though they kept asking: “Whats going on, why have things changed? Did you lose interest? Because if you did, its ok just let me know. But instead, like someone else said, they leave it up to us to do the “dirty work” for them. And its so subtle that at times I thought that my anxiety/fear of him pulling away was because of something “I” did which only served to keep me “stuck” even more. So yeah, I had to find the anger and a bit of hatred so that I could see things much clearer and see who he really was (and not the person he had portrayed himself to be). I think Fallback Girls need this at least to get them out of the “illusion” and push them into taking action. I needed to “villanize” him a little (even if just temporary) to muster up the strength to break it off and take back my power. But maybe I have all of this wrong? Am I wrong for thinking he’s a complete ASS for his part in all of this?
Confused
Yes he’s an ass.
You can break up without hating him. You can also break up AND hate him. The point is – if you have to break up, break up. There’s no need to wait until the relationship is completely jacked up and you’re a wreck.
It’s normal to hate someone when you’ve been jerked around. I think it’s preferable to constantly telling yourself he’s some kind of Prize Prince. But either way, with time, NC and commitment to heal, you stop caring about him and more for yourself.
Confused, I totally agree – if we don’t get real about who we’re involved with and, if he’s an ass, recognize that he’s an ass, nothing’s going to change. I think the idea is that it doesn’t HAVE to get to the point where they’ve done something so rotten that we end up in Lifetime Television For Women territory. Way before that happens, there’s generally a point where the amber/red flags are waving and we can decide that the relationship isn’t working for us. Having been involved with a similar jackass, I really feel for you and I know how painful it is. We are all responsible for our own actions and, yes, purposely stringing someone along is grounds for Douchebag Designation. It’s normal to be angry and, like Nat says, a very import part of the healing process. If he showed his ass (Nat, the first time I heard that Beyonce song, I thought of you!) inside of a month, be greatful and know that it’s just the classic Fast Forwarding manouver and has nothing to do with you. *Big Hugs*
LOVE this:
I think the idea is that it doesn’t HAVE to get to the point where they’ve done something so rotten that we end up in Lifetime Television For Women territory
I agree with Natasha and Grace – There’s nothing wrong with you thinking he’s a complete ass, because it’s just calling a spade a spade. That may increase, it may decrease but either way the relationship is over in fact before it even really began. Whatever gets you out of an unhealthy situation, the point is that you get *out*. Fact is, if he can’t keep it up for more than 3-4 weeks, it’s game over no credits anyway. That’s barely a month. I’m sure it was an intense month but when you distance yourself from it, fact is he went from showboating to pulling out in under a month. I’m glad you’ve got out after 3 months because I’ll be honest, I’ve heard from some readers who’ve been chasing the guy from the first month for over a year or even a decade. To be honest, most people, even the most extreme of nasty people can be fabulous for a month. We put on our best knickers, play nice, are always in a great mood and are knocking it out of the ballpark. That calms somewhat but if that same person shows up consistently after month 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and beyond that’s one thing but if he’s bringing out a different relationship personality before you actually know him, I’d just keep pushing your flush handle till that ‘chunk’ has gone because, the man in the month mirror isn’t worth breaking your back or your sense of self over.
“I’d just keep pushing your flush handle till that ‘chunk’ has gone ”
That’s Hysterical Natalie!! Thank you and all the ladies here for clarifying. I know it takes time to completely get these guys out of our system. It just scares me though how in spite of how we were treated, we still feel like we *love* them. Maybe its not really love? This “pull” that i feel for him. That’s what I feel needs to be explored 🙁
PS: I think someone else on here is named “Confused” as well. I added a “2” to my name to differentiate.
I don’t think you are villainizing him at all. You are simply looking at his behavior realistically. As Nat said earlier in her response to Paul, villainizing is assigning blame to them for something they didn’t actually do.
I can relate to your situation. About 3 1/2 weeks was about as long as my ex-AC could last on the “wonderful” behavior. Like you, I also kept asking if he wanted to end it, after the cold phase started. And as that initial fast-forwarding can be very intense, it’s hard not to get hooked. I think that is why Nat’s advice on men who pursue too hard in the beginning is dead on. We must proceed with extreme caution when someone does this, because it’s usually just smoke and mirrors to hide their true self/intentions.
Confused
I’m sure we were seeing the same guy! You’ve pretty much described my whole situation right now, Although mine was Mr Nice for around 8 weeks!
I have found the lack of closure the hardest thing to come to terms with. Are men really so cowardly that they cant be honest with you?? Its not like it was a couple of days, in total i have known him 6 months!
Just tell me man!!
WURZEL:
FOR REAL!!! That’s what I kept saying: Just let me know. Whats up with you?
He INSISTED that a relationship is what we had and what he wanted that he was just “busy” with work, his son, and blah blah blah! Oh, and I even got: “I know its in me I just need time to express my feelings to you” What the heck does that mean?? And what does that have to do with you being able to return a call, not disappear and actually ACT like you’re in a relationship? Lets get that part down first! I wasn’t asking for a ring on my finger- I just wanted to go to the movies for god sake! WHERE THE HECK ARE YOU? (LOL)
I just don’t get why they can’t just be honest but instead have to create all this drama for nothing other than to waste our time. Well at the end of the day, the facts are the facts!!!
TEXT ONLY + NO CALLS + hitting RESET BUTTON+avoiding responsibility = NO RELATIONSHIP end of story no matter what they say.
Thanks dude for being such a coward and leaving it up to me to figure it out on my own and do the dirty work for you. ASSCLOWN!
They aren’t honest about it because you are serving a purpose and if they told you how they really feel, you would no longer be an option. It’s about getting their needs met. They don’t want to be alone or in a relationship so leaving us in limbo is exactly how they get what they need from us…and also avoiding what they don’t want from us. It’s all very selfish really. They could not continue to do this if we didn’t let them….even if we tell them so….but then keep signing up for it. It’s up to us to stop giving them the opportunity. Do we really need to hear they aren’t that into us when we can see that they aren’t by the way they treat us. We choose not to see it……and choose to do nothing about it but squawk at them very now and then. They have no respect for us when we have no respect for us.
Confused2
I have tried to move past this so much and some days i am doing well, and others i feel set right back again.
2 weeks ago i decided to email him. No point calling as he wont answer! Basically i asked why it all went so wrong just as it all started going so right. I expressed i knew it was all over and done with, and that i’d had a few dates and been getting on with things, but that the ‘why’ question kept hovering in my head. I wasnt offish or anything, just asked for some closure to move on.
Well, surprise surprise…………….no response!! (which is what i expected TBH!)
Then 1 week later i get a text from him. No reference at all to my email, just a ‘Hello!!!’ quick few messages till he gets to the one where he asks ‘what you up to?’ I told him i’d been working lots etc. If he thought he’d get an invite to see me then he thought wrong! So conversation stops dead basically. 2 hrs later (i know, i’m a twat) i text him and just said ‘hey it was lovely to hear from you, glad you are well’ And do you know his response?? ‘Sorry, i’m in the middle of something right now. I forgot to text you back. I’ll text you later’ One week on and still nothing!!
Fortunately i am now laughing at his behaviour, rather than crying over it. It was so obvious he had a blank slot last weekend and thought he’d try his luck, and when i didnt offer it….
and he would never invite himself (he always said he doesnt invite himself anywhere) as then it would look like he only wants me for sex. If i do the inviting then it would be different!
I’m not saying i wouldnt see him again, but i wont invite him, and he’d have to do some serious chasing to get near me again. And he wont, so it wont happen anyway!
And i know now he’ll never give me that closure.
If he gives me closure that is it, over, on his part. As long as he doesnt give me closure, the door remains open, in his head!
Part of me, when i am even stronger than the point i have reached so far, wants to see him again, to show myself as a different woman than the one he saw the last time, so he can see i wont take the crap and can see him for what he is.
Why i want this i dont know. I know i shouldnt care, but i sort of feel like i need to regain some power and for him to see it.
I just broke up with my boyfriend this past Sunday and it hasn’t been that hard, but I am having thoughts about contacting him as I do love him, I do have feelings for him and a part of me thinks that maybe we are meant to be, but I can’t handle his disrespectful, rude and childish behavior anymore.
After almost two years of dealing with his foolishness, there was a incident that took place on Sunday that was the “last straw.” I didn’t tell my boyfriend that the relationship has ended and a part of me says that I should, but my Dad says that I don’t owe him anything. He didn’t contact me to say “I’m sorry” in a sincere manner for his behavior on Sunday. And it’s not just that incident, but all the stuff he has done since we have been dating: the cheating, the lying, the manipulation, the control, the paranoid thinking, the jealousy, they laziness, being sneaky and thinking he is slick and sly, his “wandering” eye, his drinking problem and “every now and then” use of cocaine. I will not go another day allowing myself to be in such a relationship regardless of how much he makes claim to me being the only woman for him, regardless of how much he cites that he loves me so much—I am not putting up with this crap anymore.
I too, was thinking about leaving when he least expects it, but I just can’t put myself through anymore emotional and mental trauma. He may love me, but he loves himself MORE. He loves his drinking and taking drugs MORE—I come second, third of fourth and although he has told me that I am the “best woman that he has ever met in his life” and how he is treated me “better” than any other woman in his past, means NOTHING TO ME AT THIS POINT. For the last almost two years being with him, I have been unhappy with him—I KNOW deep down that I deserve better and I know I will get BETTER as well. It’s just that right now, I feel drained, I feel anxious like I want to contact him, I want to hear his voice, I want to say or write something too him as he doesn’t know I am leaving him, but I KNOW the best thing for me is to stay far away from this guy as he doesn’t appreciate me in the manner in which he says he does. He will be on the straight and narrow for a few weeks and then start slacking again.
I just hope I have the strength to stay away from him and get over the desire to contact him within the next month. I…
Annelli
Your father is right. Very often the genuine men in our lives who care for us are very able to spot an AC man much quicker than women do. I guess they’ve never had to make excuses for one.
Ordinarily I would say that you should break up with him “properly” but you didn’t have a proper relationship so why push the boat out now? More importantly, he sounds dangerous and you need to take care of no. 1. If he starts harassing you, tell him you’ve decided to go your separate ways and please don’t contact you anymore because it makes it difficult to move on. (That’s me being tactful, I don’t think you should provoke this guy). Then ignore, ignore, ignore.
Annelli – I second what your Dad and Grace said. Stay far away from a man that drinks like a fish and “every now and then” (know that in many cases when someone admits to “every now and then” drug use it actually means “all the damn time”) uses drugs. My ex used to love to call me up inebriated and was up all night and into the next morning “partying” (to me that generally equates to “probable cokehead”, but I don’t know or care if that’s the case). People like this will say things they don’t mean, make no sense, etc. Like Grace said, just be tactful but firm. It gets better, I promise!
Annelli my brother is a drug addict. I’ve watched more than one of his girlfriends get frustrated and upset because of his behavior. It totally dismays me, this is how addicts act, they cannot change while still feeding their addiction. We try to tell them that it is pointless to sit there and expect anything different from him, but they still do. They think he is treating them bad and that he can stop but he cant. They take it personal but it isnt. His addiction and behaviors that surround it have nothing to do with them and it is not going to change. I know because he has been doing it for 25 years. Your dad is right, move on and dont even bother telling him because it wont matter anyway.
Annelli,
If you really stick to NC, you will be treating yourself with love and self-respect and on your way to repairing the most important relationship in your life… the one you have with yourself. Any one of the shady behaviours you listed off are anough to keep away, but all of them together is just too obvious to ignore… he seems to be too unhealthy for a relationship. He probably really meant it when he said you are the best woman in his life and that he has treated you better than any other…. but if his idea of love allows for such AC behaviour towards you, you can do without. Good for you for not falling for that tactic for sympathy! Grieving the loss will be hard and there are no short cuts but know that it gets better and that moving on will allow you to be in a relationship where you won’t have to be told how special you are to an AC whose behaviour implies otherwise.
Jasmine
Insightful post! Still “loving” my the last EUM kept me around for at least a year longer than I should have stayed (or actually justified me getting involved with him in the first place – we were “friends” for years before we dated and I felt I already loved him- this is before we even became an official couple.)
Yes, I could have left sooner, rather than sticking around until he suddenly broke up with me, with no discussion or arguments prior to that night. However, we were still having “good times” (his words). The relationship didn’t start out well, it was never really healthy during, and the ending was traumatic. But I was so used to dysfunction I thought a lot of the unhealthy dynamics of our relationship were acceptable, and nothing to really be concerned about, they could be ‘worked out”. So I would have stayed, thinking that my love for him, and his love for me (he said he did anyway) alone were enough reason to. And I did love him, as much as an emotionally unavailable co-dependent knew how to. I had had this idea getting into the relationship that we could work anything out, we just had to communicate, as a lot of the issues we had from our childhood were similar. I assumed there would be a certain amount of patience and understanding (this is as healthy as thinking, well my dad was an alcoholic, so I’ll get into a relationship with one- as this dynamic is what’s familiar and good for me).
So I went in, and then I waited for him to communicate with me, after the blush and newness of the relationship passed. I often asked how he was, how he was doing, how he was feeling about us… any concerns? I occasionally let him know when he was treating me in a way I thought was disrespectful (not enough- and didn’t trust myself to have the right to call a red flag a red flag- if I could even recognize it in the first place.) For a year and a half, I tried to reach him, talking to him, making plans for us to do things together, supporting him as best I could and not focusing at all if MY needs were being met. He really didn’t respond at all, just said everything was fine and accepted what I brought into the relationship. Who knows how long that would have lasted. He often told me how much he loved me for years, even back to when we were just friends, how I was the best thing that ever happened to him, and I would be content with that – words only (and I have mentioned elsewhere on BR that his version of “love” during those years was treating me as an option, being dishonest, and basically emotionally exploitive). Those little crumbs and my “love” for him were enough at the time, and overruled any red flags caused by his actions.
He did do me a favor. I wore myself out for that guy, out of my “love” for him, in spite of what it was costing me emotionally. Funny thing is, when he broke up with me abruptly after dinner that night, one of the excuses (NOT reasons- as mentioned in the BR last post) he gave me was that I had let him down, that I hadn’t been there for him. 🙂
Wow, Jasmine, your description of your relationship dynamics, how you felt in it, and how it ran its course really echoes my own experience with the last ex. I too would make a stab at communicating every now and then, only to be met with words like “we are good, we’re fine, we are and will be okay”, but his actions and attitude increasingly showed otherwise and I was aware of being moved steadily down his priority list. Even though my mind (and body, as we discussed in a previous post) were uneasy and telling me things weren’t quite right for a good two-thirds of our time together, I was in such denial about the relationship having lost its illusory legs after a year that I too let it stagger on way past its sell-by date until he inevitably broke up with me. It’s worrying how much we can believe our own BS – all in the name of “love”, or what we kid ourselves is love in our need to get away from ourselves and focus on someone else and their issues as a distraction. I’ve done the “villainising” thing about him after the breakup, when really I do know that he was just behaving in the only way he knows how. He doesn’t, and will probably never, know any different unless something drastic happens in his life. I’m hoping that when I reach the acceptance stage of grieving that I won’t need to “villainise” him any more, but can let go completely, move on and find peace.
Radiogirl,
I hope the same for you as well. It is wonderful when they no longer have any emotional influence on you. I am almost there. The EUM was highly narcissistic and it would be easy to paint him as the villian, but I was doing so to avoid my responsibility in the relationship. After a brief period of thinking it was all me that caused him to be so EU to me, I was essentially went in the complete opposite direction and painted him in a black and white manner. In doing so, I was negating any of the good in him, denying, not grieving as would have been healthier, the love I once felt for him. Which is why I was shocked back into the opposite direction a few weeks ago when I found out he got engaged. I thought it was “proof” he’d changed in a few months and therefore it really was all me- the cause of the failure of the relationship (I had not been “good enough”). That confusion about what I had thought I’d finally figured only lasted a few days. I see now that black and white thinking had done me a disservice. We were both in it, and we both failed: especially me for being there in the firstplace!
What I feel now is: he was EU, and was long before I met him. Many of his long term friends and his family members had admitted to me they don’t always feel like they know him. As the friend who knew him for years before we dated, I think he has made this choice to commit because he really wants to change, but he’s doing it by sheer force of will and not really doing the hard work of understanding and breaking unhealthy habits. He may be highly narcisisitc or a narcisitist, but that doesn’t make me his victim, I was just too unhealthy to see him for what he was. And as you said, focusing on “winning” him and being “good enough” for him allowed me to not look at myself too closely and keep my head in the clouds. I did love him, and I did lose that love… and that’s ok, that kind of unhealthy “love” is one that just costs too much, for nothing in return~
The best we can do is take a break and focus on our own self discovery, acceptance, and empowerment. Finally letting go of that rightous anger is the thing that helped me cut that last tie to him! I hope you get there and you get there soon!
Jasmine
The comments in this thread have been really healing for me to read. I’ve been involved in lots of different relationships over the years. Several of them were abusive. One was violent (I left the moment after I was beaten up – Go me!)… so basically I’m on here getting a new education on relationships and learning to establish and uphold boundaries. The thing about these comments that has unexpectedly changed my life is the mention of vilifying people. Two of my ex’s called me evil during the break-up process. Obviously that’s extremely offensive and a real knock to my self esteem to hear. I was beginning to worry that they could be right (since it was not just one person saying it just once and I had no boundaries and had essentially abandoned myself and lost sight of my authentic self identity)… anyway, my counsellor reassured me that I wasn’t evil and hadn’t behaved in any ‘evil’ kind of way in either situation. Hearing that helped, but reading these comments about people attributing blaming and negative labels to people they are breaking up with- ie. NOT calling a spade a spade, but posing like you are… well that has really helped me to understand where those cruel unjust words have come from. At the end of the day, I am waking up to the fact that I shouldn’t give weight to the words of people who have treated me abusively anyway. If anyone WAS acting evil, it was surely the man who beat the sh** out of me, and not me. I wasn’t calling him evil for doing that, so that says it all. It’s good to know where these sorts of words come from and why they happened to me- it’s all about relinquishing responsibility and playing the blame game and justifying their own inability to control me or the situation and them not getting what they wanted. I have been caring to the point of losing my own boundaries in ill-advised selflessness and that is surely the opposite of the definition of evil. People make mistakes. I know I did. People also don’t like the truth a lot of the time, and if I tell them the truth that is not ‘evil’, that is just harsh and something I am going to work on- ie. figuring out when someone doesn’t need to hear the truth and when it’s best to keep quiet and let them discover things for themselves (Florence Nightingale or what!? Oh well!)
So I just wanted to thank everyone here for helping me to heal that wound and to…
Sometimes, you are an abuse victim without even realizing it. This happened to me. I cut off all contact with my parents because I just couldn’t take it anymore. I neither felt acutal hatred nor didn’t love them anymore. I just felt suicidal after every visit.
Only now, years later, do I realize how horrible and how traumatic their abuse really was.
Same with several exes. If I had waited for hatred or non-love to arrive, I would have stayed with them and allowed them to humiliate/ridicule/abuse me forever. Horrible! Instead, I dumped them because I just felt awful (without knowing why).
People who went through severe childhood trauma can take a lot of sh…t without even realizing it. Breaking up because something feels wrong is sometimes the first step towards healing.
So true… it’s like our gage is all messed up and out of step with reality because we’ve grown up with bad experiences and feelings being normalised. Whole families will conspire to deny the issues, but the way the children of these families turn out speaks for itself. What I consider to be ‘selfish’ is actually most healthy people’s idea of ‘looking after and caring for yourself’. What healthy people consider ‘uncomfortable and a clear reason to opt out’ is what I consider to be ‘normal feeling’ so it takes a lot of courage to silence the inner critic that tells you that these new ways of treating yourself and others in a healthy way is actually the right thing to do by yourself and everyone else too.
It’s also extremely difficult to recognise some traumas from childhood given that your childhood was all you knew of the world at the time and there was no experience outside of it to gage it by. This was what life was for us. Cutting through the layers of denial is very painful and tough and becomes a grieving process… but so worth it.
@EllyB & H
What’s taught is what’s known. Glad we found out what that rumbling was in the attic [as I call it]. We HAD to put up and shut up just to survive at home. Then it became a way of life. Sort of like ‘this isn’t so bad, it could be much worse’ Which was btw, my father’s way of denying anything was wrong. To all of you out there who think maybe you are doing all the trying in the relationship, taking all the blame; step back and look at your family dynamics, your role in the family and how your parents & siblings treated you. That could be your first clue why you keep finding yourself w/EUM or EUW.
Another great post. Unfortunately, I often wait until I’m pushed to edge before ending a relationship. But not any more. Thanks, Nat!
I broke up recently with someone because I was not happy because of the way he was treating me: never made time for me, I was constantly worrying if he was going to call, worrying if I had done something wrong, etc. I was MISERABLE!! I could not take it anymore! However, he made me feel great about myself so I was totally confused, but something inside of me told me to do it!
I tried demonizing and villanizing him, but it was not working. I lacked closure until this past weekend. I definitely feel like a burden is gone! I don’t hate him, I just don’t need him around anymore. I came to the revelation and after a few counselling sessions that I need to hold onto how he made me feel, but take him out of the equation and that even though I still miss him that it was the right thing to do for me! I needed him to make me feel better, even though I felt great about myself before we started dating. He did something to me, but I don’t know what. Even though I am still upset, I have realized (once again) that things don’t work out. Our relationship was too fairy-tale like to work out anyways.
Oh @Samantha – can you explain exactly what fairy tale was it like? I don’t remember any fairy tales where the hero made the heroine constantly anxious and upset and by her own admission miserable, and yet ‘made her feel great’ at the same time.
Rapunzel and the Mind-F*ck?
The Princess And The Complete Jerk?
Little Red Riding Round Feeling Like Crap?
Beauty and the Commitmentphobe?
I don’t remember any of these!
In the fairy tales I’ve read, the hero is brave, hugely attentive, does deeds of great daring, adores his heroine, and struggles and strives to win her against terrible obstacles, and is utterly committed to her and her alone. He does NOT make her feel miserable because he never calls …
You say “He did something to me, but I don’t know what.” The short answer is ‘strung you along’, but the long answer is that he was actually quite unkind to you, and didn’t treat you with respect. This is why you felt bad. Listen to your own heart; it’s telling you the truth.
I’m glad you’re getting your mojo back – but do watch out for dickheads in princes’ clothing! Not everyone on a white charger is actually a good guy.
Hehehe… PJM I love your fairy tale names…
ha ha ha ha me too! Genius! ha ha ha
LOVE THIS!!! Might have to save it for when my teenager needs it 🙂
In the fairy tales I’ve read, the hero is brave, hugely attentive, does deeds of great daring, adores his heroine, and struggles and strives to win her against terrible obstacles, and is utterly committed to her and her alone. He does NOT make her feel miserable because he never calls …
Haha PJM! I agree with your assessment.
It was not a fairy-tale in a sense of how our relationship was, but how we came to be together.
We met in 2007 at an academic conference, barely talked, and added each other on facebook because that is what everyone did. Then out of the blue he started messaging me on facebook in 2009. We had no contact for over 2 years and I did not think he remembered me at all!! We talked into the wee hours of the morning and then he finally admitted he liked me. We lived on opposite coasts and he relocated to four hours away from me. The rest is history.
Yeah I thought he was my prince, but just another frog. *ribbit*
PJM – too funny! Thanks for the laugh – that’s what I love about this site – it is serious business but we can also have a sense of humour!
What about: “Snow White and the Seven Boundary Busters” with soundtrack “One Day My Prat Will Come”
@Samantha, I’m not sure that’s a fairy tale. Forgive me for sounding like everyone’s least favourite elderly aunt, but it sounds to me more like: one day he was at a loose end, visited his Facebook page, saw you there and thought, ‘Oh yeah – I remember her – perhaps it’s time to take that book down from the shelf’.
While it’s flattering to think he was aching for you in silence for the last two years, it’s also unlikely. NOT because you’re not beautiful and desirable; rather, because he’s a guy, and most guys are busy doing other stuff and not thinking about us at all.
And do be careful of the emotional bond formed by talking-for-hours, because – as any police interrogator will tell you – if you spend that long talking to a person, you (and him) are going to end up saying a whole lot of stuff that you don’t really mean.
This is hard but true: in fact, a lot of the relationship madness we put ourselves through has parallels in certain very dangerous situations, eg. Stockholm syndrome. People with an agenda – such as terrorists, kidnappers, cult members, interrogators, pimps – are taught exactly *how* to create tight emotional bonds with their victims. These include ‘love-bombing’, talking for hours … sound familiar?
The moral of the story is that human emotions are good servants but bad masters. Don’t let them be your rule of thumb and your cause for action; use your reason as well.
@Fearless – Oh YES – definitely ‘One day my Prat will come’ – I think that’s been my theme song … It reminds me of the day my sole-parent sister and I were decorating our Christmas tree, and she told me how her dream in life was to have real glass decorations for it, but how she thought that might only happen if she met some rich guy.
Then she began to sing in a beautiful falsetto Snow White voice: ‘One daaaaay – my Prince will commmmmeee – with glass balls …’
and we both collapsed …
PJMi’ve been reading and learning here for months,this post of yours is brilliant! emotions being good servants but bad masters, very good advice! also the stuff about talking for hours, excellent observations!
I will be thinking about this today, thanks!
PJM, your “elderly aunt” comment has me dying laughing!! One of my favorite sayings to bust out, courtesy of Sophia Petrillo is, “Maybe the paperboy is right. I’m just a mean old lady.”
p.s. Some of the jerks we ladies have been involved with, for all their blustering, have egos so fragile their balls may very well be made out of glass 😉
I LOVE the Seven Boundary Busters: that would be Sneaky, Dopey, Liar, Cheater, Lazy, Texter and Doc (Doc is the high-flying assclown PhD or MM surgeon/specialist).
Snow White might also need to consider changing her name to ‘Low Self-Esteem’ …
PJM
“Seven Boundary Busters: that would be Sneaky, Dopey, Liar, Cheater, Lazy, Texter and Doc (Doc is the high-flying assclown PhD or MM surgeon/specialist).”
LOL!! 🙂
Excellent!
ps My ex EUM is Doc!
Another great post Natalie. All so true and definitely one of those posts that I bet the vast majority of us relate to.
I have been guilty all my life of allowing the strength of my feelings for a guy to dictate my ‘staying power’. If I feel this strongly – or this upset! – it must be love, right? So we were meant to be together, right? So all I have to do is convince him of what I already know, right? And I can’t leave until I stop feeling the loooove, right? No fearless, way WRONG. I get it now. Just cos I miss him toooo much doesn’t make it necessary to go back or to stick around (so long as he’ll have me sticking around.)
And I agree (with Grace, I think) that it is very selfish of a man to take what’s on offer from you for years when he knows you want more. If he doesn’t want more it should be easier for him to quit, and it would be the right thing to do.
Once in an emotional ‘discussion’ with the EU I was v upset; it had been a difficult time – my father had recently died, I had sold my house and the purchase of the one I was buying had fallen through; I was, albeit temporarily, ‘homeless’; I complained bitterly that he should end it if he can’t offer me the relationship I deserve (I used the term ‘master of your own fate’) and although he was trying to comfort me and telling me to please not cry and all that – he told me that I was also master of my own fate, which I knew to mean that I could end it too if I wanted to. It wasn’t said with the intention of being hurtful; he would just think he was pointing out the obvious. But I had no answer for him; it was something I had not thought about before, that I should not chastise him for prolonging my misery when I could end it myself. I cried even harder because I felt he had thrown my own argument back at me and that he was right. Yet I instinctively felt that his point was unfair or misrepresented the nature of the *my* predicament as wholly different from his. After that I never heard from him again until I phoned him. Sometimes I think he tried to end my misery – but I wouldn’t let him!
The whole point of EU people is that they do nothing but take and take and take, and never give.
Whenever you have an emotional need, they feel put out by having to deal with helping you in anyway. However you are expected to do everything in your power to lift them up and make them feel better about anything and everything they needed you for.
Our problem is we allow them to get away with it.
Very succinctly summed up, Barbara, and this *exactly* describes the behaviour of my last ex and my letting it continue to happen down to the last full-stop.
All of us on here having suffered this kind of treatment in the past (and unbelieveably of our own volition!), we really do owe it to ourselves to be ultra-vigilant so that we don’t get a repeat of the experience in the future.
You did it again Nat! Great post! When I broke up with my ex, I still had very strong feelings for him, and I did not hate him. When it became clear that he did not feel as strongly for me as he led me to believe–I wanted a future with him, but he did not really want one with me–it hurt like hell, but my rational mind told me that I had to walk. Otherwise, I would have been hurt even worse once he decided that he was ready to move on.
I honestly do not know if I’ll meet someone else down the road, but I do know that I did the right thing by looking out for my own best interest when I ended my previous relationship.
Yes @Gina – and that is the bottom line.
People – unhelpful people, who one does not really NEED in one’s life, especially at critical times – tend to say things like ‘well, being right won’t keep you warm at night’, but you know what? It actually does.
At least that’s what I’ve found. A clear conscience and the knowledge that you have done the right thing is a really good way to get the healing rest your heart needs.
I’m glad I did what I did recently with Nice Shy Guy. Today as I drove to work, I could just feel my inner self expanding and growing like a time-lapse photo of a bean shoot! I think doing the right thing may do exactly that: act like time-lapse photography on your heart, allowing you to heal a lot faster.
(PS if you’re genuinely cold at night, there are duvets, insulation, hot water bottles and many other options. You don’t need another human being there just to act as an electric blanket)
“People – unhelpful people, who one does not really NEED in one’s life, especially at critical times – tend to say things like ‘well, being right won’t keep you warm at night’, but you know what? It actually does.”
So true PJM!!! I don’t miss this person (I used to miss who I thought he was though), and I sleep quite well at night now–my ex had sleep apnea and snored so loudly, even earplugs couldn’t block out the noise!! LOL! I’ve learned to stop listening to the advice of others who don’t know what’s best for me a long time ago. If you stay in a relationship until the person dumps you, those same people would also say that the writing was on the wall, so you should have left before you got dumped. The bottom line is that you’ve got to do what’s in your own best interest.
Once a relationship has reached it’s expiration date, sooner or later it is going to end anyway. Therefore, it’s better to walk away with a broken heart and your self-respect intact, than to crawl way with a broken heart and zero sense of self-worth.
I personally think that if someone brokeup with you coz you cheated, that personally surely hates you. It is tough to move on unless you put the blame on the other person and hate. Without hatred for your ex you cannot make space for the future.
I´ve been cheated on; badly. Not by the guy I wrote about above, we´ve never been a couple (we´ve just been best friends who own stuff together and spend our holidays together and sleep back to back when we travel; just the two of us, and talk every day….)
But at no point did I hate my ex-boyfriend for it. I was furious, yes. I told him how I felt. I broke up with him, I told his mother what he´d done, but I did not, at any point, hate him. There´s nothing fruitful in hate. And today there is not a single romantic feeling in me for him (although I still find him very attractive), and we´re good friends. Why would you want to hate someone?
Hating someone takes too much energy. My exes are not worth my time, effort or energy. It hurts with some more than others and you may feel like you have to demonize them to get over, but do you really want to be mad all the time?? Let the tears flow, eat the ice cream, remember the good times and learn from the experience.
That is the bottom line. I just accepted that it did not work out and we broke up because our relationship was broken. I was not happy for a while and I refuse to be angry and hate someone who does not deserve my attention.
“Some of you are literally waiting around for things to be ’100% bad’.”
I completely agree with this article and I don’t think all fallback girls are waiting to hate the AC enough in order to leave…sometimes we just refuse to see any bad in the AC.
Once I got my head out of the clouds and looked at reality…I was absolutely mortified to see what I allowed from that PIG. I suffered a bit of self-hatred over that realization but i’m almost “out of the woods”…so to speak. I’ve been on BR for close to five years and will prob stay hooked for as long as NML chooses to stick around =). Thanks for all you do!
“Some of you are literally waiting around for things to be ’100% bad’.”
Yes, that struck a chord with me too. Ouch! I was totally waiting around for him to make it more than plain (!!!) that it wasn’t worth my while flogging the the three legged donkey. If I’d had my eyes wide open and my self esteem intact from the very beginning it’d have been plain within a month that this was just never going to be…. but then as soon as I have that thought I also know that I *did* see all the red flags; I verbalised them to myself; I was consciously aware of them; I ran them over in my brain all the time! And I remember even in the first two eeks of seeing him raising my concerns with a friend of mine, so I was not one of those who was just utterly taken in – I knew! I just didn’t want to see it – I dodged it all – and I didn’t have enough pride to tell him to jog on…. on the other hand I was arrogant enough to think I could make him love and want me – consistently. Can’t decide if I thought too much or too little of myself (but I do know that a woman who had her priorities right and good self-esteem would not have given him the time of day past about four weeks or so, possibly even from day one!)
Oh Fearless, everything that you say above is so *horribly* familiar to me – it was absolutely the same with my last ex, right down to expressing my concerns about being Fast Forwarded in the first week or so to a male friend at work! All we can do is acknowledge our denial and forgive ourselves for our actions in letting the relationship madness continue despite our reservations, and then endeavour to take to heart what we have learnt and do differently for ourselves now and in the future.
“Can’t decide if I thought too much or too little of myself”. I feel the same about this, Fearless. But surely this state of mind is typical of being EU – classic Pushey-Pulley ambivalence even about ourselves?
“But surely this state of mind is typical of being EU – classic Pushey-Pulley ambivalence even about ourselves?”
Ha ha! Yes, probably, Radio. I think it’s fair to question ourselves – a certain amount of ‘ambivalence’ is necessary in order to reach conclusions and I think it also reflects awareness of the shifting nature of ‘life’ – that nothing is truly certain or immutable, so I am actually not totally ‘anti-ambivalence’; however, it’s no use when we can never reach conclusions or make decisions when these are necessary. I know now that it wasn’t actually arrogance that kept me flogging the EUM donkey, more likely stubborness, and a lack of appreciation that I truly did deserve better and was perfectly entitled to expect it – I had a pretty unhealthy sense of ‘low entitlement’, which I am now consciously aware of and can see when I’m putting myself down – so I take a different approach with myself and my interactions – I am beggining to feel ‘entitled’ (the EUM had a very keen sense of his own entitlement – in all things! which felt very alien to me; I wondered how people got to be sure of their own importance or to so readily expect their needs to me met – before those of others, specifically)… anyway I blab! I’ll shut up now.
@ fearless…I actually think what you say in this post is most accurate (for myself anyway).
“…lack of appreciation that I truly did deserve better and was perfectly entitled to expect it…” says so much about my own initial self-hatred. I still can’t believe that I thought so little of myself to allow any person to treat me like a doormat. Which leads to what radiogirl says about forgiving self…thank you both for sharing. It’s helpful to know i’m not alone
This is perfect advice for my ex. He is my daughter’s father, so unfortunately I still have to have some contact with him, otherwise I would be 100% no contact.
Last weekend, on Saturday he once again, regaled me with his relationship woes. He goes on and on about how him and his ‘on-and-off’ girlfriend of the past 1.5 years both have ‘issues’. How whenever they break it off (which by my count seems to be every month or so) she goes and sleeps with this other man. He gave me names even, and said she has ‘trust’ issues. But that he ‘cares’ for her, and even though they are a ‘joke’ to everyone, he keeps trying. He needs to be alone, and heal himself, or fix his issues, but he seems completely unable to be alone. He NEEDS someone (anyone) to give him validation.
His girlfriend called him while he was at my home visiting our daughter. She was not happy about him being there, and wanted to make sure nothing was happening. Which to me is very insulting.
You see, he accidentally forgot his car seat for her, and claims it is ‘easier’ to just visit her in my home on weekends like that, than driving her back to his house and then returning her later in the day. [They don’t do overnights yet, she is 20 months and just now ready to start.] So anyway he started the whole conversation saying how this woman doesn’t trust him, because he believes I still am in love with him.
I shut that down. I told him in no uncertain terms, that I have ‘no interest’ in him and that ‘there is no way that he and I will ever be together – NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN’. I politely reminded him that if it were not for our daughter I would never have spoken to him again. I told him point blank, that now that I am emotionally healthy, I see him as plain as day, and frankly he has nothing to offer me, and nothing about him interests me in the least. The last time we were ‘together’ was when I conceived my daughter by the way… that was April 2009!
So he then went on to proclaim defensively that ‘he just wasn’t common enough for me’ to which I laughed. Then he sold himself to me, proclaiming, “you know I never cheated on you?” To which I reminded him that I honestly truly believe he did. I also told him I knew the relationship was a mistake on my part, because he never loved me, used me and never wanted to actually be with me, but merely was only out of…
I guess there is a length limit on the comments LOL… I was rambling… anyway… point is he needs to get help and stop hanging on to this illusion that I am somehow ‘hung up’ on him.
Barbra, reading your post I couldn’t help thinking what the necessity is for you two to be going over your old relationship, the chances (or not) of a reconcilliation and his obvious dysfunctional new relationship; why is all of this talk a good idea for you? You say you wouldn’t be talking to him again ever if not for the child so why are there not limits to what you “need” to talk to him about? Perhaps you should let him know that you are not up for this kind of conversation and if he “forgets” the child car seat (on purpose!) he can either go back and get it (tough!), not bother with the visit or maybe take baby for a walk in the pram to the park (or similar); I have a feeling given those ‘rules’ he’d refrain from forgetting the car seat.
Hey Fearless, Typically, we just exchange our daughter with only a little discussion about her and that is that. Otherwise we never speak. Our scheduling arrangements strictly done by email.
But it never seems to fail that every month or two he wants to chat at me about his life, and attempt to talk about ‘our’ past. I do continually cut off the conversation and remind him that I just don’t care. I have someone in my life, and I don’t tell my ex anything about this man.
As for your suggestions, I did send them off to play at the park, other times I have opted to just leave them alone in my house! Just to avoid him.
This particular conversation took place while my daughter was having her afternoon nap. She’s 20 months old, and she has a nap for a couple of hours each afternoon, so he was just hanging around my house chatting at me while waiting for her to wake back up.
I know I should probably ask him to pop out somewhere while she is sleeping, as it isn’t appropriate for him to linger around snooping into my business and telling me his. I know almost everything he does is an attempt at control.
However, at the same time I want to maintain a peaceful ‘co-parenting’ existence. As we have had some major battles. When he doesn’t get what he wants, he immediately threatens legal action. I can’t afford that hassle.
I find it easier to butter him with nice behavior as it just saves me hassle. I am firm with him. It is a very delicate balance. My legal mediator has advised this course of action. She thinks it is a good thing that he ‘confides’ in me… I disagree but… BUT!
I was his escape, his pick-up me up, his anti-anxiety pill, even before the fog of my lust cleared, I found him wanting and his self-defeating ways were exhausting. I watched his actions and they all said “ me, me, me, me, I have so little to give YOU ”. I called it quits. He got angry – the silent treatment went forever despite the fact that I kept quiet about his character’s flaws. I allowed him to treat me in a manner that I don’t allow anyone else to treat me, just because I was too scared to see reality and held on to a fantasy a tad too long.
Artemisa
I was there too and you’re not alone. I struggle every day even though its now over not to blame myself or *want* him anymore. I beat myself up for seeing the flags and all the signs but not listening to them. I beat myself up for staying too long and allowing him to take advantage of me, lie and then proceed to insist that perhaps it was me that was not being understanding or that perhaps it was me that couldn’t “handle” this type of relationship (what? One that was only on his terms? What planet is he from?)
I wish there was a way to *EXORCISE* these monsters from our minds and hearts because at times that’s what it feels like. Someone has taken over the stable, calm, charming, peaceful person that i once was (all in the span of 3months only) and replaced her with this anxious, clingy, self blaming, woman that i didn’t even know was living inside me. It has all been really painful to know that I could allow someone so much power over me. Where is the ASSCLOWN Exorcist when you need him? Does he have some Reality Water? I could have used some of that sprinkled (hell, poured) on my head a couple of times! (LOL)
I guess the good part is that we mustered up the strength to at least get out and face the truth and let go of our “fantasy”.
Confused2
“Someone has taken over the stable, calm, charming, peaceful person that i once was (all in the span of 3months only) and replaced her with this anxious, clingy, self blaming, woman that i didn’t even know was living inside me. It has all been really painful to know that I could allow someone so much power over me. Where is the ASSCLOWN Exorcist when you need him? Does he have some Reality Water? I could have used some of that sprinkled (hell, poured) on my head a couple of times! (LOL)”
OMG! Again like me. I have never been a clingy, anxious, type of woman. I’m independant, strong, and cope well on my own, but this man just opened up a completely new ‘vunerable’ me that i never knew was there before. When we first got chatting online i told him exactly what type of woman i was and what i was looking for and needed in a man. This, he said, appealled to him and it was all going so well. Once he did the ‘going cold’ thing the first time, i turned into exactly the type of woman i had previously claimed not to be. I’d not lied in the beginning but she just appeared. At first i thought this was the demise of the relationship and it was all my fault. But he returned, and did it all again even after my ‘cooler’ self returned.
He has made me into the type of woman i never wanted to be!
Confused 2
You can’t have an exorcism. The anxious, clingy, self-blaming woman part of you was awaken by your ass-clown, welcome it and thank the ass-clown for appearing in your life and showing your “shadow side”, the side you hide from the world because it’s not pretty and not on the winning team. Own it despite the fact that you don’t like it, that it embarrasses you and maybe bring you shame and pain. Feel it completely, kiss it, love it, cherish it, put a bow on it, take a picture of yourself feeling that way and frame it , then put those feeling in your memory bank, do not allow your system to delete it. When ever that side of you rear it’s ugly head, like a pimple, know you are not in a good situation.
I told the guy- avoidant and all, that I loved him but that the I could not cope with the gap between what he told me and what his actions said. I loved him but it was time for me to move on. He was a mess. I was a mess once, I come from a dysfunctional family and I refused to be taken hostage , I had therapy – viewed as betrayal by them. I understood him, he came from a mess too, but he refused to take responsibility for himself or seek help, I think he could not, he was trapped, sad and unhappy and in need of escape, ( like I was and my mother was) and I tried to help him. Me trying to help made him feel less of a man, made his sabotaging ways bring despair and self loathing come to the surface. I was escape once. His mother messed him up with her anxiety and now I messed him up with my psy books and trying to look for a pony next to a pile of crap
At the start he told me that he loved that I was smart, independent and could stand up for myself yet at the end all these qualities made him feel more insecure. The truth was that he was immature and a woman hater. If a man tries to take you down a peg or too to make himself normal, lose him because he does not love you.
Artemisia,
“…take a picture of yourself feeling that way and frame it , then put those feeling in your memory bank, do not allow your system to delete it. When ever that side of you rear it’s ugly head, like a pimple, know you are not in a good situation”.
I hadn’t thought of seeing those needy, clingy behaviours and feelings of mine as another red flag to remember from past experience and to look out for as a danger signal in a future relationship. All I knew is that I seemed to experience them again and again with every single partner after being in the relationship for a while, and hated myself for behaving like that yet again. Somehow it never dawned on me that of course they’re a very reliable “gut feeling” marker of being in an incompatible and unworkable relationship. Thank you for putting it so graphically and eloquently.
RadioGirl
Thanks. When I started to feel anxious and clingy again, something inside of me snapped and I said “ not again, that is enough “.
It’s not them, it’s me, they always choose the same girl. lol
I did my research, I read “He’s Scared, She’s Scared: Understanding the Hidden Fears That Sabotage Your Relationships by Steven Carter and Julia Sokol “, and all their other books and try not to apply what John Gottam calls the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse in a relationship -marriage
Criticism ( attacking your partner character rather than focusing on specific behaviour that upset you)
Contempt ( insulting your partner)
Defensiveness ( easy response but not helpful)
Stonewalling ( refusing to respond).
Men use this method more than women ( who talk – out problems ) because men are usually overwhelmed by emotions that flood their system with stress and rather escape the tension than deal with it. Women will be able to soothe themselves out, men will feel the stress longer and blame your bad mood on your period and not on their behaviour.
I checked myself head to toes, and no I was not a castrating bitch, I was a woman who wanted love, respect and a committed relationship where she could grow, nurture and be nurture. I was not getting that – I did not get that in childhood either so there is no benchmark. I was becoming an anxious, clingy, self blaming woman again, not a good look. It was time to get off the merry-go-round. Relationships bring out your insecurities, but if they bring only that, it’s a bad sign .
Artemisia, I saw a really interesting feminist play here based on the journey of four women through eating disorders.
In one scene, one of the women stood mute while another ‘sold’ her by describing her as a piece of property: ‘plenty of storage space inside for all YOUR problems!’
That line has often come back to me since then.
So now that I faced my fear and met with my ex last Friday and realized he doesn’t have that power over me anymore, I’m in a quandrary. His birthday is Sunday and I don’t know whether I should send him a quick happy bday or not. I’m not interested in being friends, but since we’ve put the negative energy behind us now I feel like it would be an extra unnecessary “screw you” to purposely not say anything. Since I don’t hate him and I’m no longer in love (hallelujah!) how should I handle this? I told him when I saw him to have a good birthday.. should that suffice?
Nevermind.. I think I’ve got my answer. He already got his bday wish and this is just my codependency kicking in and needing to do the “polite” thing. Pthth forget it.. shouldn’t matter to me what he thinks.
Carrie – good decision.
Nicely done, Natalie. A lot of us are guilty of this. Although you touched on some of the post break-up myths we tell ourselves in our grief, it is a topic that could well have its own article.
The single most difficult (and important) thing for me to have learned through the dissolution of my marriage and everything that has happened since (and I am still mightily struggling with this) is:
When a relationship is over:
– missing someone does not mean you have made a mistake
– having doubts does not mean you have made a mistake
– hurting like hell at times does not mean you have made a mistake
– longing is not Love
– loneliness is not Love
– need is not Love
– [insert negative feeling] ….. is not Love
(they may just really, really, really seem like Love at the time)
I may understand all these things rationally, but it is an incredibly hard thing to accept on an emotional level. I think it is to a certain degree emotional immaturity. I don’t mean that as a negative label, but rather as a child’s way of looking at things – all or nothing, black and white, 0 or 100, love or hate. As if I am seeking 100% certainty and resolution in my emotions, and emotions just don’t work that way. That will be another hard thing to digest…
Thanks again.
McBane
Very good comment. Even though there seems to be a lot of “feeling” and “connection” and angst, we are “emotionally immature”. It’s not quite like being a child – children in a safe environment are very emotionally expressive. I love that about them.
We bury our emotions, deny we have them, try to feel what we think is appropriate. It’s so hard to explain because it’s such a mess. It’s what makes us emotionally unavailable. We think we’re not EU. How can we be when we’re FEELING so much and TRYING so hard and HURTING, but we are disconnected from ourselves and what we really feel and who we are. And we are unable to take responsibility for making our lives better. It’s not that we shirk responsibility, we don’t even realise there are options!
It’s most obvious with OWs but all fallback girls do it.
I struggle to explain it but when you come out the other side it’s such a wonderful difference. It’s not a loss at all. We cling to all of that anxiety, depression, pain, complication because we think it’s a part of us and makes us unique. It’s really not, it’s an albatross round our neck!
This could refer to anyone who treats you badly, but I saw the best poster tonight. It says: “Don’t try to win over the Haters. You are not the Jerk Whisperer.” LOL
Got it. It’s not my job to turn an EUM or an AC into a person of integrity.
Hi Everyone,
Firstly, let me start by saying that this website, has helped me out TREMENDOUSLY in the last couple weeks. Ive been reading everyday, but this is my first post, and Im fairly nervous about it.
I started NC with my ex 18 days ago. My story reads a bit like a movie. I met the ex, two and a half years ago, as I was coming out of an abusive relationship of 4 years that was mentally and in the end, physically abusive. Which leads me to how I met the most recent ex, we’ll call him J. The man who I was in the abusive relationship with was forcing me to escort. ( I am 36 years old, I escorted for 4 months, and yes, I know that it was horribly wrong, but at the time it was better than getting the piss beat out of me for NOT doing it.) I met the most recent ex this way. He was a client. I left my abusive relationship and started a new one right away with J after he actively pursued me for a couple of weeks.
In the months following, I quit escorting and we dated. Met SOME of his family, and TWO of his friends. He was very handsome and very charming, not someone you would think of using the services of an escort, I was consistenly kept a secret to the majority of people in his life. I fell in love with him, head over heels more in love than I had ever been before, and the compliments, and the lavish dinners out, the fact that he mentioned my first name and his last name went really well together, the weekends spent at his place, and the gifts, and how he helped me and my children move out and into better places, and the emails professing love and caring and a future for us. It all seemed great for a few months.
Im not sure what sparked it to this day, ..but in April 2010, he came over to my place, and told me (after we had finished having sex and were laying in bed) that he wasnt sure that he could continue a relationship with me, because having kids meant that I wasnt always available to be with him. I could’nt ALWAYS find a sitter,..and he wanted to “be able to come home and just go out for a walk or a romantic dinner or a night at the pub, whenever he wanted.” “but that he would try to work thru these feelings and hopefully get over it.”
It didn’t work. A month later, on the same day that I found out I was pregnant with his child, he broke up with me. He also made it perfectley clear that it was very important to him that we remain close friends. Best friends. He told me that he would “stay at my place with me until I decided what…
Hi Heartshapednoose,
You’ve come to the right place. Your comment made my heart lurch. Thank you for posting and don’t be nervous. I’m so sorry for what you have been through. Congratulations for getting out of the horrendous escort situation, dear lord. And congratulations on 18 days of NC with the future faking client. He must have seemed dreamy in comparison to the situation you left. However, the fact you were kept a “secret” and how you met him are red flags, right, despite how dreamy he may have seemed at the time? Have you read Natalie’s post “Behind Every Excuse Is the Real Reason”? Since you had kids when you met the future faking client guy, he is using your children as an excuse. Nothing sparked it in April. As Natalie states in the above post: “An excuse is a reason that is given to justify an offence or fault but its primary purpose is to lessen responsibility by getting you to overlook, excuse, or even forgive off the back of it.” I’m so sorry. He simply is an assclown of the highest order. I can think of a few more ways to describe him but I’m trying to refrain and be diplomatic. I’d like 15 minutes with him. He wouldn’t have a need for future escorts. Now is the time to focus on you, your health, and your children. I hope you will take the time to focus on you. My thoughts are with you.
Hi HeartShaped,
Welcome to BR. There are so many difficult aspects to your story, and as you didn’t get to finish I’m not sure what kind of feedback you are looking for. But it sounds like you got stuck in the ‘friends’ zone with someone who couldn’t be a real friend to you.
Getting involved in escorting is an area of experience that I don’t have. However, I can’t imagine that getting a boyfriend through an ex-client was ever going to work out. The whole point of escorts is to be convenient for the guy so that he can have what he wants when he wants it; I can’t imagine his motives and character changed so much between being your client and being your boyfriend. I hope you got more out of being his gf than when you were in a professional relationship, otherwise he just got your services for a cut rate.
Meeting a guy in those circumstances, getting into a relationship with no break between your last abusive relationship and the ex; those are things over which you had control. You need someone who accepts you and your kids. I’m struck by the coincidence of being dumped and finding out you were pregnant. Please tell us more. We’re happy to support you in going NC and building your self-esteem.
Hi again,
(and thanks for the good input, it helped a lot)
Natalie, I´ve been reading loads of your old posts and they´re such an oasis of good advice. And it´s almost scary to see how many parallels there are to my life; things that have a lot to do with me and hardly anything to do with him. And a lot to do with my childhood. And I am realising that I will benefit from taking more time all by myself to think about me. So that my next relationship is an independent one, not a reaction to this one.
Also, I am realising that my friend´s issues (I am reluctant to calling him my EUM, because I´ve been pretty EU myself) are his. How liberating. They have nothing to do with me, and they stem from long before we met. As do mine, really.
I don´t want to be his girlfriend anymore. Life´s better, although I grieve my falling out of love with him more than him telling me he didn´t love me enough to want to go for me. I don´t understand why, yet.
But thanks! I´ll keep coming back.
I got rid of that loser of a so called boyfriend I had. You just don’t know how good I feel. I cut all contact. Now I can relax and be myself!
So I recently (four months) came out of a seven year relationship, including an approx 16 month engagement, and I effectively got dumped. I think I even got the “I love you, I just don’t think I love you enough to marry you”. I’m 31 and he was (is) 30 and we had been together since university and gone through a lot, including moving cities and countries and travelling around the world. I thought the previous “trials” we had been through had bought us closer and thought you can’t know for sure how compatible a relationship is unless you have the hard times and come out the other side, so I used to be pretty smug about our long term future.
I can see now that we eventually deteriorated to the point of behaving “incompatibly” with each other (please excuse the grammar!) until someone’s (his) hand was forced.
I’ve tried to avoid villanising (sp?) him, and tried to remind myself that though the good times were good, the bad times were there too, and at the end of the day it just wasn’t working out; but frustratingly when we see each other now it’s actually still enjoyable to spend time (that’s all!) in each other’s company.
Sometimes it’s nice to know I’m not the only one whose relationship imploded in such a manner and that it is hard to fight the feelings of confusion of why it ended.
It could have been worse, he (we) could have pretended it was still all good and went ahead and got married etc, only for it to collapse spectacularly when there were kids and mortgages in play as well so I am thankful for that. Better that at least one of us realised it wasn’t sustainable, even if I think he did start “divorcing” me in his mind from well before he said anything. Maybe that’s why the five months of relationship counselling couldn’t save it.
Sometimes I wish there had been someone else, so I could hate him (villaninsing), but at least it ended early enough that the destructive behaviour didn’t start and we don’t hate each other. We were friends for another two years before getting together and apart from not loving me, he wasn’t an AC – he truly was my best friend which in some ways is what I think I grieve for more – losing my friend, and my future.
This blog and the responses to it let me know I’m not the only one whose relationship has ever come to a grinding halt so I try and get on with it, and remind myself it’s his loss and I am still awesome (and he is still awesome – we just stopped being awesome together).
Still 3 weeks NC which is the longest in the past four months (from both sides)! Though I have to contact him next week as the breakup gives me some potential legal issues with my immigration status so I have to let him know when I leave the country basically. But that will be all and I will not have interior motives or ask him what he’s been up to or look for clues or signs (!) in his response!