Claire recently got in touch with me because she was literally freaking out about a guy that had asked for her number and hadn’t called when she expected. They’d met on the weekend, he’d called on the Tuesday and suggested meeting up a couple of days later, she’d said she wasn’t free and suggested the weekend, he said he was away that weekend but would call the following week, and she was flipping her wig by Sunday evening fretting about if and when he’d call. When she got in touch with me, it was the Thursday i.e the weekend he was away hadn’t even arrived yet. I.e When she got in touch with me, she had known of this man for five days.
Too.Much.Drama. Let’s be realistic here: Isn’t it just somewhat disproportionate to be investing so much mental and even physical energy into someone you just met and that you don’t know?
If this is how you carry on before a date has happened or when you’re in the early stages of dating, what will happen further down the line or when you experience conflict? Will you explode?
How on earth can you see so much potential in something that hasn’t happened yet that basically amounts to someone asking for your number? When they say that they’d like to take you out or ask for your number, it’s an expression of interest. It’s not a legally binding contract for a relationship nor a guarantee of a date.
I hear from a hell of a lot of people, admittedly mostly women who are waiting around. I’m not talking about waiting around in a relationship or during the dating phase which is bad enough. They’re waiting around for someone they just met to call or even email/text them. Their whole life has gone on hold and they’ve even cleared their schedule in anticipation of the possibility of a date happening.
When I see people losing their marbles over an ‘expression of interest’ and putting themselves into a holding pattern circling over the dating skies waiting for their ‘slot’, it worries me. What were you doing last week/month before you knew of this person’s existence?
They’re just not that special. And I say this especially with regards to how women behave towards men and treat them like the sun shines out of their bums, glorifying them without them so much as having to date you and put in any effort! I was talking with a friend yesterday who was expressing praise for a guy that’s not trying to get into her knickers or get fresh with her. Now I’m not saying that this isn’t a nice thing, but to be honest with you, it’s the least we should expect from someone that we don’t know very well!
That’s not to say that someone like this may not end up being relationship material but the whole latching onto one thing and making them out to be the messiah has been done to death – just see my posts on appearance, intelligence, and common interests!
Now I say this with the benefit not only of writing Baggage Reclaim for six years but also spending almost all of my dating life being guilty of what I’m talking about – picturing. I’d meet guys and I won’t lie – sometimes I put our names together, or imagined what it might be like to go somewhere with them or meet their parents. I’d check my phone umpteen times and was already committed to a future with them when I hadn’t even been on enough dates or had a relationship with them to justify all of this energy.
It’s like “Wow, a man has asked for my number. He must be really special and I must feel interested in him. Oh he mentioned he likes to play ping pong, listen to similar music to me and looks just like I like them. Squee! I wonder if this might be it? Oh how great this would be because this whole dating thing is exhausting. Right, I’ll have to let the girls know I might not be around next Friday/Saturday. I wonder where we’ll go…” This whole internal conversation could happen within seconds.
Now I get it. When you venture back into dating, you might feel a bit jittery because of previous experiences. Or…you meet someone and feel a bit excited by them and your hopeful meter along with your libido and overactive imagination go into overdrive. Or…you’re on Columbo alert because you recognise that dating is a discovery phase, only you’re a bit too eager to get the dating crime scene tape out.
I’ll be honest with you, if you’re losing your mind over someone you’ve just met (I’ve heard from people having anxiety attacks even), it’s a sign that you 1) need to address the real source of the anxiety and get that under control and 2) focus on building up your confidence and trust in yourself before you get back into dating. You’re not going to discover a damn thing if you’re freaking out because it distorts what you perceive yourself to be experiencing.
If you mentally get carried away as soon as you meet someone, it’s time to force your feet onto the solid ground of reality. Not only are you betting on potential but you’re reacting very disproportionately which is like Fast Forwardingyourself. Alarm bells should be ringing because you’re over-invested. It’s just not healthy to throw yourself into something that doesn’t fully exist yet – you’re emotionally committing before there’s something to commit to.
If you’re holding a magnifying glass to your interactions, it’s important to give yourself a caution. Be aware of your boundaries and recognise code amber and red behaviour but it’s also important to recognise that you’ll be going nowhere if you put nothing into your interactions. Fine if you see something that clearly shows that they’re not worth pursuing anything with – just bounce. It doesn’t cost anything – FLUSH! NEXT! If you’re not sure, go on a date – it’s just a date. If you don’t want to – that’s fine! No biggie – let it go.
You don’t owe a date or interest to everyone that expresses an interest.
Whoever they are isn’t your last chance saloon. When someone asks for your number or invites you on a date or even has a few conversations with you, it’s an expression of interest. How far that interest stretches and where it lies is only going to reveal itself in the coming days, weeks, and if you go on to date, months. Some people will express an interest and it won’t materialise into anything – you can’t miss what you didn’t have.
It’s like getting upset because your numbers didn’t come up on the lottery. Surely you don’t start mentally spending the money when you haven’t actually won?
If you don’t slow down, you’ll kill things before they’ve even started with Dynasty levels of drama, most of it going on internally! You’re setting yourself up to fail! Some expressions will materialise into something but it won’t necessarily be what you thought – that’s what the discovery phase is for. And then others will grow into something more enduring. The point is you can’t treat everyone like an equal opportunity relationship – you’re not that desperate.
When you have poor beliefs about yourself and relationships, somebody who asks for your number and never calls just exacerbates those beliefs. I used to let that sort of stuff eat me up inside and it just took me further down the spiral of “see, I knew I wasn’t good enough”. Once you start loving yourself more and deciding that you are a person of value and deserve love and a healthy relationship… guys that ask for your number and don’t call literally roll right off your back. You are not validating yourself based on outside sources any longer and therefore a simple non-act like that is just a nothing. I don’t derive my value anymore based on whether a guy likes me or not or calls or not. Its the ultimate freedom.
Natasha
on 03/10/2011 at 11:15 pm
So true Nat! One of my friends used to do this habitually in our younger days and I thought, “Sweet Jesus woman, you’ve met him like twice, who cares?” (Personally, I really had my shit together. I only got into a state over an assclown who boomeranged me for several years. *AHEM*) If a guy you’ve only met a few times doesn’t call – I don’t think it’s really that much of a rejection, because they don’t know you well enough to reject you. It can feel like it for sure, but this person has spent maybe a few hours in your company – it’s not a judgement on you as a person! On the other side of the coin, you don’t know him well enough to be that invested.
I think it’s totally natural to go through a stage where we go around with the Assclown Watch magnifying glass up to guys and the Fallback Girl Threat Level System in full effect. Yes, it’s important to have your eyes wide open and check your own attitudes, but keep in mind that dating is SUPPOSED TO BE SOMEWHAT FUN. Oh yes. I said it. Many of us haven’t, errrrr, exactly experienced it that way for sure, but I think it’s an important thing to keep in mind 🙂
p.s. Nat, I’d love to see a post someday on friends/family who meddle in our love lives and try to force us to date people we have no interest in. This has been a big ol’ problem for me recently and I’m sure I can’t be the only one! xo
colororange
on 04/10/2011 at 12:31 am
Natasha,
Yeah, I went to a family member’s wedding the other night and per usual, an uncle (always asks me) asked me when I was going to be married. I knew it was coming. It made me feel sad because I am not married yet. BUT if I had married any of the guys I dated before, I’d be up a humongous shitcreek without a paddle! They were all chosen for wrong reasons. They just reinforced the old belief that no man wants me, I am invisible, I am unlovable bla bla bla.
There was a guy in high school that a mutual friend hooked me up with. Me having the low self-esteem, willing to take any kind of attention from a guy whatsoever and wiling to do just about anything to have it, I fooled around with him. And what happened? He never called again. I hardly knew him. I was ready to kill myself, I was so distraught. It was pathetic. Usually, when I have met men and they asked for my number, they did call. But I don’t get this a lot so it’s been few and far between. Though I’m all worn out on the ten excuses why he can’t call bit. That is all bull and I’m over it. I know I get excited when I meet a new guy. Since I have been single, even with the hiccups that have come along, it has cleared my muddled mind about relationships. With men. I hope it keeps clearing out. I have to say I hope my shy nature is not putting men off though. eeek!
Natasha
on 04/10/2011 at 6:34 am
Color, if I had a nickel for ever relative, friend of my parents, convenience store clerk (I wish I was kidding.), etc. that said “Why aren’t you married yet?” or “When are you getting married?”, I would be typing this from my private jet while toasting my success with my two new best friends, Jay-Z and Duchess Catherine.
Have I gone home and shed actual tears over said comments? You betcha. Like you, I know I wouldn’t have wanted to end up married to anyone I’ve dated, unless I wanted my life to turn into a Lifetime Movie entitled “Not Without My Assclown: The Natasha Story” or “Mother, May I Legally Bind Myself To An Asshole?”. Those comments do make me feel like, “Ohmygod. I’m so chronically single, people NOTICE. Horrors.” I have to remind myself that some people are nosy and for different generations it’s a normal question to ask (normal = highly annoying, yet technically socially acceptable).
It sounds like you are dating with the right mindset – good for you!! I wouldn’t worry about shyness putting a man off – I think shyness can actually come off as a little mysterious, which is quite sexy. Work it to you advantage lady 🙂
Mango
on 04/10/2011 at 2:24 pm
“Not Without My Assclown…”…..ahahahaha! Oh, Natasha, you crack me up!
Fearless
on 07/10/2011 at 12:12 am
Natasha and color,
if it’s any consolation, by the time you get past about 40 – 45 yrs. people just stop asking! It used to really annoy me too . It never occured to me when I was young that I wouldn’t ever get married, but it’s sure looking that way now! I felt such a failure. Now I don’t give a shit (but it took me a long time to get there – age, mainly, and folk not asking anymore – folk not expecting that I’d be able to catch a man, not at my age! is what I can imagine is there reasoning.) When they stop asking, you realise that everyone just thinks you are un-marry-able, for whatever reason – too ugly or too old! If they’re still asking it’s cos they don’t yet think you’re too ugly or too old! They think you are marry-able so what’s keeping you? But really they are putting their own expectations or values of life etc. on to you – and I always used to think, ‘what the hell answer do you expect to get to that question?… what the hell do you expect me to feel other than ‘bad’ at you asking me that – are you pointing out where you think I am failing?!’ As Natasha said, folk think I too am chronically single. They’re obviously correct about that.
jennynic
on 03/10/2011 at 11:28 pm
I was just thinking about all this this morning. I am dating someone new, over two months now, and I’ve had a couple private freak out moments where I had to talk myself off the ledge. Why hasn’t he called, checking my phone ten times and really thinking the worst. We barely know each other in the scheme of things and for me to get worked up about him not calling when I think he should is kind of childish (lets face it, I wasn’t calling him either). He can’t read my mind and his pace isn’t necessarily my pace. There are no set rules on this, unless he says he is going to call a certain day….then it is fair to expect him to. Recently, I was getting anxious because it had been five days since he called. I was sure he wasn’t into me and was doing the fade out. I stressed, I got grumpy, felt rejected and had my finger on the flush button without even talking to him. The guy friend who introduced us suggested I just call him and feel it out. I stressed over this too, fearing rejection. Finally I did leave him a message that I felt like I was getting mixed messages from him and could we talk? He called me back the same day and said that he had been thinking the same things and that I didn’t seem interested in him and that he’d been losing some sleep over what to do next. Then he invited me over for dinner….without hesitation. Both of us being guarded came across as indifference. He also told me that night that he wasn’t dating anyone else without me having to ask. In this instance, I realized how futile it was to sit and simmer in my fears, so I stuck my neck out a little and instead of just sitting and waiting, waiting and waiting ( and freakin myself out) I decided to take part in deciding the pace and communicated like an adult. Once I wrapped my head around it I thought…just call him and find out….whats the big deal, quit being a drama baby about it. I am a little old fashioned and don’t chase after guys but I wanted to break my past pattern of waiting for him to do all the investing before I will. Besides what was the worst that could happen? Him not liking me? Sure it would of been a bruise on my ego but my fragile ego doesn’t rule me anymore. Dating in a healthy way is tough for a recovering FBG, it means checking and rechecking yourself, while keeping your eyes open for red flags on both sides.
jennynic
on 03/10/2011 at 11:37 pm
I also want to add…..It helps to learn how to enjoy the experience of dating instead of viewing it as a hostile game. It’s not life or death, its just dating. Take your time and smell the roses along the way…..if they start to stink, move on. If you come into it with negative beliefs you will most likely have a negative experience. I have keep reminding myself of this when I start to flounder a little.
Gina
on 03/10/2011 at 11:52 pm
Nat,
Once again you are spot on! I’ve been guilty of behaving like this in the past and so have some of my girlfriends. I find this behavior to be especially true of women who have not been in a relationship for long periods of time, and who are both horny and lonely.
I believe that if we women live full and interesting lives irrespective of being in a relationship, when a man comes along and shows interest, we are less likely to get all worked up and visualize ourselves walking down the aisle before we’ve even gone out on a date with the guy! Now that I’m a bit older and wiser, I have a ‘Que sera, sera’ attitude about the whole dating process.
For example, a guy whom I’d met online and chatted with on the phone asked me out one Saturday night. On Friday night he contacted me to tell me that he’d met someone whom he unexpectedly made a connection with and wanted to pursue that. I told him to go for it, thanked him for being upfront and honest, and wished him all the best. I then made plans to meet some friends (both guys and gals) for dinner in the city. I had a blast with my friends and didn’t even give the guy who cancelled the date on me a second thought!
Que sera, sera!!
Lia
on 04/10/2011 at 9:42 am
Wow, that was very mature of him to be upfront with you like that. Never done the online dating before, but men and women that people meet in person don’t even keep it real like that a lot of the time….good for you to not dwell on something before it even got started. Life is too short.
Anne
on 04/10/2011 at 12:23 am
Thanks so much for this post! It could not have come at a better time for me. I went on a second date with a guy yesterday, and I like him quite a bit. And here I sit hoping he’ll call me. But you are so right: I DON’T EVEN KNOW THE GUY AFTER TWO DATES and I’ve been fast forwarding and imagining how great it could be with him, etc. etc. This post was exactly what I needed to slap some sense into me at this very moment!
PJM
on 04/10/2011 at 12:56 am
Super post as always, Nat, and totally on the money.
I suppose once again it’s about learning to listen to your own heart. Over-eagerness tells you a huge amount about where you are emotionally, and what you really want (ANYONE! NOW!).
We do future-fake ourselves, and we do ignore our own internal red flags just as much as we ignore those in others. Perhaps if we learn to control these things in ourselves and watch out for our own red flags, we’ll be more alert to them in the men we date.
camiB
on 04/10/2011 at 1:03 am
@Natasha – i’d love to see that post too! no, you aren’t the only one..except with me- it’s friends who are trying to hook me up– not family.. my dad did ask when he’d meet someone though…(i’m a couple yrs shy of 3.0….
“p.s. Nat, I’d love to see a post someday on friends/family who meddle in our love lives and try to force us to date people we have no interest in. This has been a big ol’ problem for me recently and I’m sure I can’t be the only one!”
Natasha
on 04/10/2011 at 4:53 pm
CamiB, I knew I wasn’t the only one haha! My issue is with friends rather than family as well. I just turned 30 last month and one of their attitudes is like, “You must have a man. ANY MAN. This is life or death. If you don’t like him, I’m going to scold you like a toddler and tell you that you don’t know how to run your own life.” I feel you sister, I really do!
Eve
on 04/10/2011 at 1:15 am
Yep, stop the freaking projection.
No man – no human being – is worth the kind of emotional and psychic energy described here.
Bri
on 04/10/2011 at 1:49 am
This is so similar to what I’m going through right now. I’ve been on four dates with a guy I knew back in college and we recently reconnected, years later. He’s crazy attractive, super intelligent, and I love talking to and being around him. However, I’m freaking out about what we are and where he sees this going and whether or not he’s looking for a relationship.
I read into every text he sends, move he makes, look he gives me and try to analyze them to figure out how he’s feeling. I know it’s too early to have “the talk” but this whole dating thing is giving me heart palpitations. I always jump into things and want to have them defined right away, and I feel unsettled not knowing what he’s thinking.
I’m trying to keep an eye out for red flag behavior (sometimes he can be inconsistent), and I feel like I’m already too invested. I really like this guy and the connection we’ve established so far is great, but I know it’s still founded on appearance and common interests, to quote NML.
Ugh NML, you are so inside my head – I really am treating this guy like the messiah and putting my life on hold waiting for the next text/call/date; instead of enjoying the time we spend together and the dating experience as a whole, I’m driving myself crazy trying to get to the next step in order to establish something more serious as soon as possible. The amount of time I spend checking my phone and/or his Facebook page is pathetic. I don’t even know if he’s seeing other people or not!
I’m going to re-read this article many times this week; everything Natalie says is exactly what I need to keep in mind. I want to try and pull back so I don’t put out the desperate girl vibe, but obsessing and over-investing seems to be second-nature for me.
grace
on 04/10/2011 at 10:01 am
Bri
I would suggest (to you and to to others) that if dating causes anxiety and heart palpitations you may not be ready for it. You don’t have any problems meeting men, it’s not like you’ll be missing out forever if you took some time out.
It’s not about managing your actions so you don’t give out the desperate girl vibe. It’s about not BEING the desperate girl.
To get over a relationship and move on takes more than a few weeks and a new man. All that happens is you take the baggage from the previous relationship and move it to the next one, and the next one, and the baggage gets bigger and bigger until you implode. All the stuff about this man being super attractive etc you said about the last one.
I understand the urge to do it because it seems so painful to be on your own. I did it myself. If I could turn back time the one thing I would change is to give myself some breathing space between relationships.
Anne
on 04/10/2011 at 1:07 pm
Grace, Great reply. Very helpful to me. Thanks.
RadioGirl
on 04/10/2011 at 2:43 pm
Hear hear, Grace! I do love your comments – people would do themselves a huge favour by heeding your very level-headed advice.
This is another superb blog, Natalie. I love how the whole BR site contains all the advice and insight we need to go forward and lead a fully-expressed and fulfilled life, whether or not that life has a romantic partner in it. Also, the ongoing coaching and encouragement you provide with each new piece you write, together with all the readers’ comments, is a great support especially when the going starts to get a bit tough from time to time. My own current “recovery” from relationship breakup trauma (and, actually, coping with life in general) would certainly be a lot harder without the wealth of support and resources you’ve built up here over the years. Many, many thanks, and congratulations on notching up 6 successful years of Baggage Reclaim – proof, though none is needed, that your work is much-needed and much-appreciated by your readers.
Michelle
on 05/10/2011 at 3:01 am
I do not agree that if you have anxiety, you are not ready. I tend to anxious in dating in general, and the way I w ork on getting better is to feel it and work on why itis happening. Soothing techniques. If I were to wait, I would never date anyone I even remotely like. So I tell myself all of the stuff in the entry and that I am ok no matter what. To blanket say any anxiety means no dating does not work. Prior to the dates, I feel great about myself. So there is more going on.
Allison
on 04/10/2011 at 4:06 pm
Bri,
What do you mean by inconsistent?
Carrie
on 04/10/2011 at 5:21 pm
I was just wondering the other day where you were Bri! Just a few weeks ago you were kind of a mess over the MM.. there’s just no way you’re ready to date again! Take everything Natalie has talked about, truly loving yourself first and knowing your self esteem is high enough to make good decisions for you, and run with that.. Not run immediately to another man! I’m 4 months past the break up, 3 months living on my own, and for a moment last week I considered getting back into dating again. My online profile was up for a day before I realized I was having massive anxiety about it.. going back and forth about whether I was ready. And it occurred to me that when I can’t keep a decision, it’s most likely my gut telling me I’m trying to do something that’s not right for me. So I took the profile back down and I am going to wait until I know I’m ready. Besides I really like being on my own.. not having to think about anyone else.. and I’m definitely not ready to give that up yet. I’m looking forward to dating for sure, but only when I’m actually ready.
runnergirl
on 05/10/2011 at 12:33 am
Hi Bri,
Good to hear from you. I just learned another lesson about trusting my judgment, self-esteem, and slowing my roll. Do you trust your judgment with this new guy so soon after the exMM?
Taking a break to heal and gain some perspective between the ex MM and another relationship has been the greatest gift I have given to myself. I just about jumped the tracks though. Fortunately, I’ve started listening to me. Are you listening to you? My best to you as always.
Magnolia
on 04/10/2011 at 10:27 pm
Hi Bri: ditto what everyone else said. I suddenly understood what NML meant when she compares going back into dating like running into traffic. When I saw your post, considering where you are at re the MM, I felt like I was hearing you say you have decided to go and play dollies on the freeway. I want to jump in and rescue you, but you have to rescue yourself. Sounds like instead of rescuing yourself from dating insanity, you’re looking for a guy to rescue you from your life.
I have a pretty cousin who could never go a day without having a guy in play. She had a hard childhood and the attention of a guy was her love-substitute, a drug she couldn’t say no to. Now she’s a single mom.
I tried to grit my teeth and be alone as if it were surviving banishment and hated it; I tried relationships that gave me nervous breakdowns from the get-go. Only now pushing forty do I realize how there is no avoiding learning to love yourself and enjoy being who you are independently.
Don’t let either of these situations be you. Who are you, Bri? What do you love? What do you bring? What’s so terrible about your life that you have to have some guy distracting you from it?
S
AdrienneBytheSea
on 05/10/2011 at 12:03 pm
Bri, I was wondering where you were, too, and hoping that you did not go back to the MM. Glad to hear that you didn’t! The last question Magnolia posted above for you is a good one to contemplate, and one that I was just asking myself last night. I used the MM situation and all its drama to distract me from all the stuff I need to work on in my life. It’s been two months NC now and last night I felt the enormity of the chasm between how my life is *now* and how I envision it to be, how I’d like to create it to be. I’m never going to bridge that chasm, though, until I deal with myself. Any dating at this point for me would be further distraction and drama and cause more pain for myself and perhaps an innocent party. I feel a little depressed about it all, right now, but dating to get a boost to my self-esteem would only be a hit from the crack pipe and send me into a drug-induced fog of not being real. Being in an MM situation is a big enough hit on the crack pipe to last a lifetime. So this new guy you’re seeing is single, but the situation sounds like another way to “lose” yourself (but have you found yourself yet?). All the best to you!!!
Fearless
on 04/10/2011 at 11:53 pm
I’m sorry, but Bri, are you not the same woman who ‘couldn’t live without’ the MM about five minutes ago?
Forgive me but I have never understood how people go about switching all of their attentions (their love, focus, desires, whatever it is) from one guy to another so swiftly. Now, after four dates you are obsessing and preoccupied over some other guy, really? Maybe you should stand back a bit and put this kind of energy into getting to know yourself rather than getting to know another man – they surely can’t be that interchangeable, can they? – or have I been missing something all my life?
grace
on 05/10/2011 at 8:17 am
fearless
I used to do that too, just switch from one man to the other.
It’s not about the man – he really is interchangeable, it’s an attempt to escape our own issues. It’s not dissimilar to men switching from one woman to another, no matter how much we try to justify it. I do regret it, not least because I came off worse a number of times! I wouldn’t do it again and I didn’t do it with the last two men, which is how I was able to get off the merry go round.
Allison
on 05/10/2011 at 3:10 pm
Bri,
I so agree with the ladies!
Why not take a man break and get some healing time!
Magnolia
on 04/10/2011 at 2:19 am
I like the lottery comparison. We overreact because we don’t believe, really, that a guy could be genuinely interested in us. So, when a man expresses interest, it’s all like Ripley’s Believe It Or Not:
“Could be TRUE??? Could he be interested in lil’ ol’ ME?”
It has to get to the point where a man’s interest in us isn’t like him dangling the proof that we really are loveable after all.
Here’s where I’m at on the learning curve: there is a guy in one of my social circles – we’ve been acquainted for under a year. We’ve had a few conversations. Cute. Incompatible, unfortunately. No asking for my number, but he has expressed thoughtful interest in my thoughts or opinions. That’s enough for me! The other day he smiled to himself at something I said. I was talking to others; I caught his smile out of the corner of my eye.
Be still my heart! I fantasized for three days!! I’m still trying to reel it in.
It triggered me into the obsessing zone because it seemed like he genuinely likes me, and I still find that hard to process. And not only does he like looking at me – he likes either how I talk or what I said. (That, or he had some gas, or was thinking of something entirely else!) I was trying to figure out how such a small smile could launch a thousand ships in my heart. At the same time, I have wondered if he feels the same tension I do.
Took me a while, but then I realized: it’s because it seems like a fricking sea change in the entire natural order to believe that a guy like him might actually enjoy a woman like me, or even have a tiny crush. And I couldn’t stop the obsessing until I said to myself Magnolia, okay, why not say sure, he likes you. If you can believe that, if you can make that judgment call yourself, without getting further proof from him, and without making it either a statement about your awesome attractiveness or your incredible ego (it IS possible someone likes you a little bit) – well, then what?
I realized that if him expressing interest in me isn’t apocalyptic, then I’m in a position to ask myself what I want to do with his warmth. He can like me – in our capacity as acquaintances – without me doing a thing. I can accept, enjoy, let it confirm that I’m okay and crushable. And that’s it.
I now look forward to the same kind of interest and warmth from others; men and women. The above experience helped me notice today when one of my female colleagues seemed genuinely, warmly happy to see me. I AM worth that. Doesn’t mean I have to make babies with any of them, but does give me a sense of what kind of ‘expression of interest’ makes me feel solid and genuinely appreciated, and is worth pursuing.
Arlena
on 04/10/2011 at 2:24 pm
Sounds like an epiphany in the positive. I like your take. Great, obviously they work in both directions. Thanks for sharing!
Spinster
on 04/10/2011 at 4:05 pm
From Magnolia:
“Took me a while, but then I realized: it’s because it seems like a fricking sea change in the entire natural order to believe that a guy like him might actually enjoy a woman like me, or even have a tiny crush. ”
Wow. This may as well have punched me in the face.
I’m fine with being single. I also knew, since I was a teenager believe it or not, that I’d never get married. While I wouldn’t mind getting married one day, I accepted a very long time ago that it may never happen. One of the reasons why is encapsulated in Magnolia’s quote: I can’t really imagine, outside of a few family members and maybe a few friends (even those aren’t guaranteed), that someone would love me for me – genuine & unconditional love in spite of my flaws and whatever else – for the rest of my life. And it’s kinda the same the other way around – could I love someone like that for life? I don’t know. It just seems unreal. Couples like Natalie & her partner seem like this mythical, elusive, almost-impossible-to-attain-&-maintain treasure.
I wasn’t able to put this into words, but seeing this part of Magnolia’s comment just put it into perspective. Wow. This is sobering & sad. I feel like I should cry, and hell, maybe I will. But at least I can practice getting over it, I guess.
Magnolia
on 04/10/2011 at 10:37 pm
Yay, spinster! Thanks for getting it. When trying to admit to yourself in your own head that someone likes you is like telling yourself you’ve sighted a unicorn and that you had the power to make the unicorn appear, there’s going to be resistance.
We create our own realities. And in my new reality (difficult as this is to type out) I am a desirable, make-a-man-laughable, fall-in-real-love-withable quantity (to a select few, as someone else wrote here).
For the moment, it feels like la-la land. But la-la-land (of darkness! and pain! evil wizards in AC guises!) was where I used to live, where love for Magnolia was an impossible thing.
Tulipa
on 05/10/2011 at 5:40 am
Hi Spinster,
I’m fine with being single. I also knew, since I was a teenager believe it or not, that I’d never get married. While I wouldn’t mind getting married one day, I accepted a very long time ago that it may never happen.
Can totally relate to this, I have had the same thoughts since I was young too, but for me I am starting to understand why and mostly it is to do with not loving myself unconditionally and accepting me for me so if I can’t do it for me why should anyone else?
Could I love someone for life in a healthy way I don’t know either I’ve certainly tried my best at loving in very bad relationships where I don’t run away but in a good one I think deep down I’d be heading to the hills and fast.
All the bad relationships I have had have been a reflection of me not loving me sometimes I’m overwhelmed with thoughts of how could I have let myself be treated so badly that is when I allow myself a glimpse into that area.
I can also see what you saying about Nat’s relationship it does seem so foreign to be accepted and to accpet someone else for who they are with no games and hidden agendas. I tell myself that I’ve tried so many combinations of bad relationships how do I know I can’t be in a healthy relationship if I have never tried it? (though I have lots of work to do yet)
I wish you well,Spinster , I guess as long as we are happy single then we shouldn’t worry too much.
Spinster
on 05/10/2011 at 4:16 pm
Thanks again Magnolia, and thanks Tulipa.
I had another light bulb moment today related to this because I’ve been thinking about Magnolia’s quote since yesterday: I think that “this mythical, elusive, almost-impossible-to-attain-&-maintain treasure” is this way because of rejection & invalidation throughout my whole life. Tulipa said “but for me I am starting to understand why and mostly it is to do with not loving myself unconditionally and accepting me for me so if I can’t do it for me why should anyone else?” and that sounds about right. Shit, if I was teased throughout childhood and adolescence, if I was invalidated & rejected by almost everyone throughout my life, why would I believe that some man would be any different?
Now let’s not get this confused. This isn’t to say that ALL men would never like me. What I’m saying is that it’s hard to imagine that a man would love me completely & genuinely – no strings attached, no fine print, no conditions – with all of my flaws and whatever else. I just can’t imagine it. And maybe it’s because of what I saw during my lightbulb moment – I don’t believe it because of my childhood & adolescent history (and actually, much of my adult life too).
So, going back to the main point of this blog entry, I guess this is why I (and we) have all of this angst over a damn telephone number. (I don’t clear out my schedule or anything ridiculous like that though. I’ve never been that far gone. :-|) It’s kinda unimaginable to think that someone might actually like me for me, for no reason at all.
Wow. Even more to think about. 😐
runnergirl
on 04/10/2011 at 2:22 am
Thank you Natalie for this post. This what make you such a brilliant author, it feels as you are writing for just me. It’s is something all the great novelist have in my opinion. The novels may be written in the 1800’s but it as though they know you in 2011.
And thank you Adrienne, Fearless, Cavewoman, Used, Grace, SM, Natasha, Radiogirl, Jupiter23, and Magnolia for your responses regarding my questions as to Race Car Guy in the last post on Futility. Your comments and Natalie’s post “Slow Your Roll” helped me to see I don’t trust me or have the self-confidence in me or have the self-esteem to date yet. Magnolia, I’ve been in academia since I was 23. We need a committee to decide to visit the restroom. Seriously, while I didn’t build sandcastles or put our names together this time, stress over whether he would call or clear my schedule, I was conscious that my gut was saying “not so much” from the get go but my head reverted back to the old pattern of ignoring my gut which you all pointed out. That was my internal struggle. I wasn’t listening to me, not whether he called or didn’t call. I knew I wasn’t listening to me, AGAIN. I may finally be getting it. I get to determine if there are red flags and I don’t need a committee (although it sure is nice to have you all there). I get to determine if I’m annoyed. I was annoyed and I saw red flags.
Here’s something else that I didn’t realize: “If you’re not sure, go on a date – it’s just a date. If you don’t want to – that’s fine! No biggie – let it go.” Since I’ve only been married and then involved with MM’s, I’ve never dated. It’s just a date and I don’t have to marry him? That helps reduce the dynasty levels of drama and is a “squee” for me. I also realize as Natasha points out that I have my AC/EUM magnifying glass on and my FBG Threat Level is on full alert. The “line” ultimately lies with my self-esteem. Even though I can rationally understand what self-esteem may be, I may be actually understanding, feeling what it is. I get to decide what’s good for me. The right answer lies with me. That is a ton of responsibility, responsibility that I’ve pawned off onto others. “Whoever they are isn’t your last chance saloon.” He’s not that special, I’m not that desperate. I’m my last chance saloon. I’m that special. (Of course, I want to ask if you…
Magnolia
on 04/10/2011 at 8:20 am
“I don’t need a committee (although it sure is nice to have you all there).”
I worried a bit about my post to you, runner, because the “committee” – the wonderful community – we have here at BR helps me out continually and I hoped you wouldn’t take it as “you should know the answer by now and not ask us.” And you didn’t take it that way – you got my drift – so that’s good.
There have been a few interactions I’ve had with males recently that nine months ago I would have brought straight to BR. I have felt such pleasure in realizing that what would have perplexed and made me anxious before, because it required a judgment call, now are almost non-issues, because I just make that judgment.
I do owe much of this change to BR. It feels like I imagine being promoted does: one day you find yourself making decisions that would have terrified you before. I am now making better executive decisions about my relationships, feel a lot less worried about the folks I don’t like or who don’t like me, like myself more, and actually expect some people to dig me because of who I am, not in spite of it. Big changes.
I think once we start to expect that people can like us FOR all our quirks, and passions, and that funny bump on our nose, etc, no other behaviour from a potential love interest makes sense than them clearly trying, respectfully, to learn our quirks, passions, boundaries, and dreams. And if they are compatible with me, they will be *trying* to be as upfront and clear about their interest as possible, as I aim to be clear and upfront (with myself and them!).
This criteria – that is, expecting that interested means *interested*: ie. they should seem to find me genuinely interesting, and I must find them actually interesting – helps me be more flexible about the how many calls, when to call, when to ask out, etc etc. Seven calls in a row in a week from a dude who never asks me a thing about my writing (which is my passion and profession), for example, would rank lower than two calls, or one date, in a week from a guy who wants to know all about who I am, what I do and why I do it.
Sometimes guys get numbers just to prove to themselves that they can. Sometimes guys who call dutifully still manage to forget to express any *real* interest in YOU.
Quality not quantity, ladies!
Natasha
on 04/10/2011 at 5:02 pm
Runner, yes you ARE that special! Hearing you say that makes me so happy 🙂 I think we’ve all been where you are to one extent or another and the end result is learning to trust and value yourself. *Big Hugs*
p.s. “We need a committee to decide to visit the restroom.” made me laugh out loud!!
runnergirl
on 04/10/2011 at 10:22 pm
Hey Magnolia and Natasha,
Magnolia, I laughed out loud about the committee comment and I’m still laughing today. It really spoke to me. I got your drift so appreciated your thoughtful response(s) as well as the responses of the others. Like you, I am grateful for the wonderful community Natalie has established. Thank you Natasha, with BR, I’ve discovered I am that special.
It really is a judgment call that only I can make. You are spot on. Congratulations on your big changes. It sounds like you are making tremendous progress and trust yourself. (Congratulations on your dissertation abstract…that’s a big hurdle.) This brief encounter with race car guy was a big wake up call for me. Sometimes I read Natalie’s books/posts, the responses on the blog, and I undertand things analytically but it’s a different matter entirely when the ideas are applied, such as trusting myself, having self-esteem, and slowing my roll. My head and my gut were not in sync, triggering dynasty levels of drama. I like your comments about learning what it is he is interested in, the authentic, imperfect me or ? As well as learning whether I am interested the authentic, imperfect him or some prince charming I’ve conjured up in my head. That can only happen by going slowly.
ps. Natasha, we had to have a committee meeting to decide whether to close the college during one of our infamous fires. The flames were down the street, nobody could breathe, and we were sitting a meeting trying to figure out what to do.
Natasha
on 05/10/2011 at 1:28 pm
Runner, that story is hilarious (since everyone got out safe!) – I once worked in an office where, because no one could agree on what kind of catering to order, an entire committee had to be created haha! Literally we sat around in a conference room debating in what cases it should be pizza and in what cases it should be sandwiches. Talk about “flip-flapping” 😉
SM
on 04/10/2011 at 10:16 pm
Runner you are welcome. I know we dont need a committee but I do need to have contact with some people who ‘get it’. Thats why I come to this site. I have lots of single girlfriends with some bad ideas about dating, I get all the bad advice one needs from them, I need somewhere to go where people arent living in la la land. I need some accountability partners and you are all it.
Christina
on 04/10/2011 at 3:45 am
Oh yes, this is embarrassingly familiar! It was an especially big problem in my younger years when I was painfully shy and withdrawn and NO ONE ever asked me out. When that first started to change, I would latch onto any expression of interest and have out futures planned out for the next 60 years before there was ever a date. I put up with some really crap behavior too, because I was so desperate that I was sure I would never get another man to be interested in me. Better not let this one go, even if he’s a jerk! 🙂
Once I realized that a small, select portion of the male population was interested in me from time to time, and barring that, I could actually ask men out myself *gasp!!* the craziness abated a little. I considered it a mark of how far I’d come self-esteem-wise, that I didn’t get too wrapped up in fantasy about guys who asked me out when I started dating again in my thirties.
chelsea
on 04/10/2011 at 4:54 am
whoa nat your like a mindreader
actually I haven’t been reading your blog for a while but it’s helped me tons this past few months . A few weeks ago I felt I was ready to start meeting or dating guys so I signed up for a dating site just to feel it out. Well I went on a date and hooked up with someone =I and had a few more interests.
But now im slowing down because I think it has all been kind of overwhelming and fast for me so I disabled my account and will wait it out a few more weeks or months. The old me would have been upset that, even though these guys showed interest , exchanged numbers , met up with me and I even was intimate with one ….. that if they didn’t call then I’d freak out.
But after reading your blog I learned that putting yourself out there isn’t bad , dating is a discovery phase where you find out about yourself and what you want and that it doesn’t have to always end in a relationship. I also realized it wasn’t that much of a big deal and even if nothing happens then it isn’t the end of the world it just means that person wasn’t the right match.
I felt that I have progressed from how I would use to react , though I may not have been lucky and found the perfect match I got to talk to a few guys that were interesting as well as make me more comfortable and less scared about dating. But for now I’m going to take it easy.
Thanks again nat!
grace
on 04/10/2011 at 9:43 am
This is where I feel some sympathy for men. You have a chat with a nice man at at party. He asks for your no. You don’t hear from him again. All of a sudden we morph him into a Lying, Future Faking, No Good AC.
Maybe he was just a bit drunk. Maybe he got made redundant. Maybe his ex has contacted him . Maybe he’s gone on holiday. Maybe he realised it would be a bad idea because he’s got a girlfriend! Maybe, in the cold light of day, he’s not as interested as he thought he was (face it, we’ve done the same). Maybe he’s decided he’s not ready for a relationship yet. It could be anything. He’s not OBLIGATED on the basis of a conversation to start “treating us like a princess” (whatever that means).
There are worse things than not calling. It’s much worse to get a call from a man who isn’t over the ex, who is dealing with a family crisis and isn’t fully emotionally available, who isn’t that interested but fancies some entertainment.
Natasha
on 04/10/2011 at 5:06 pm
“There are worse things than not calling. It’s much worse to get a call from a man who isn’t over the ex, who is dealing with a family crisis and isn’t fully emotionally available, who isn’t that interested but fancies some entertainment.”
Amen Grace – personally, I wish my exes had never called!!
SM
on 04/10/2011 at 10:06 pm
LOL Natasha. I wish my ex’s never called too.
Sarah C
on 05/10/2011 at 4:03 pm
Ditto, and perhaps I shouldnt have answered lol. xx
Allison
on 05/10/2011 at 3:13 pm
You got it!!!
Much rather be alone 🙂
NoMo Drama
on 06/10/2011 at 4:30 pm
I was much more disturbed and upset by these guys until I found a term for them: “mirage boys”
FedUp
on 04/10/2011 at 9:44 am
This post was spot on. It reminds me of the book “Its just a date” written by the same authors of He’s just not that into you. When I date someone I try and not get my hopes up too much because I’ve dated AC’s before.
intuitive
on 04/10/2011 at 9:49 am
The advice I try to follow is…
– Don’t ask for the other person’s number in return if they ask for yours first. If they are soooo into you, they can make the call, and if they don’t call, well, you don’t have their number and can’t call begging for their attention, and you know they weren’t worth worrying over anyway, and you have no choice but to move on.
– Get busy living your life so you’re not thinking only about them calling. If they don’t call, well, you have lots of other fun stuff going on. And if they do, great, you have some conversation topics if you meet up, and you won’t get too invested in this person if things do progress further (or don’t).
Countless times I have heard of people finding better relationship partners when they focused on their own lives instead of scavenging desperately for somebody to be with.
Chrissy
on 04/10/2011 at 4:30 pm
Good advice, I’ve even gone so far as deleting their number from my phone so I couldn’t contact a person.
Recently I had dated a guy for a month that was hot and cold towards me, it seemed I was always initiating the contact and setting up dates. I finally just took a step back and saw what I was doing and how I was pushing things with him. I took his number out of my phone and didn’t contact him. Three weeks of no contact and he initiated contact, acting as though we hadn’t talked for three weeks. According to him during those three weeks he was heavily depressed/medicated and his phone was shut off for two of those three weeks because his cellular company lost his payment. Whether its true or not, I’ve realized I really didn’t care and I didn’t like him as much as I thought I did anyway. And I was in fact, annoyed with the casual way he started speaking to me again.
In some ways I feel bad for being annoyed, maybe he does have depression, but just because he has that problem doesn’t mean that I have to deal with the way his mood would swing hot and cold regarding me. He is not the person for me, regardless of how attractive he is! lol I don’t need to “fix” him. He needs to fix himself.
Alika
on 07/10/2011 at 9:04 pm
@Chrissy -Thank you for sharing your story! Recently, I met a guy, we talked on the phone few times and one day he did not call… I started to panic and all questions started to pop into my head: “What I said to upset him etc. ” Then I told to myself: “Stop! I only know him for couple of weeks, it’s time to calm down”…He called me next day. I think we need to let it go and just take a step back as you said!
@Natalie, Thank you for your brilliant article, it’s always comes on time!!!
sarah
on 04/10/2011 at 10:04 am
Wow – this is so me. I’m embarrassed to say that but that was me with the assclown. We met at work (a disaster in itself, in hindsight) and he would spend hours in my office talking. An expression of interest (and really I was just a good audience for his narcissistic crap). He made a promise to come help me renovate my house. He gave a specific day and said he’d call. I put myself through hell, putting my life completely on hold waiting for that call (which never came – a good warning sign there I chose to ignore).
All the drama now is just embarrassing and humbling. I needed to look at why I invested so much in someone, just because they paid the slightest attention to me. The relationship turned into a flaming car crash because both of us were in complete delusion – I was projecting all kinds of stuff onto him, ignoring warning signs and pretending to be fine with things when I wasn’t, he was a commitment phobic assclown narc who thought I “understood” him and how he wanted things and just went along playing his little future faking games to get his ego stroked. When it went down in flames, I was devastated, having created a fantasy in my head. He was confused because he thought I understood, despite sending mixed signals and refusing to talk about the relationship.
Now I see it, so clearly. I wish I could have then.
buffythebs_slayer
on 04/10/2011 at 11:33 am
I’ve got a question, how long is dating as a discovery period supposed to last? At what point do you have a “are we on the same page” talk without freaking out a potential partner. Does anyone understand my confusion? Don’t get me wrong, I’ve made many mistakes in the past because I’VE NEVER had the talk and always just assumed the other person knew when the friendship moved from i like you to something serious. *Face plant in palm*
grace
on 04/10/2011 at 2:28 pm
buffy
before sex
Gina
on 04/10/2011 at 2:35 pm
buffythebs_slayer ,
“I’ve got a question, how long is dating as a discovery period supposed to last? At what point do you have a “are we on the same page” talk without freaking out a potential partner.”
The answer is quite simple: a man reveals himself though his actions. Is he calling you everyday? Is he making plans to see you regularly? Is he behaving in a manner that shows that he wants something more serious? In other words has the guy indicated that he wants to be serious by asking you to be his girlfriend? If you want a commitment, do not sleep with him until you get one. If he starts bringing up the topic of sex, but hasn’t shown that he wants to be exclusive with you, tell him that although you find him extremely attractive (if you do), you prefer to be in an exclusive and committed relationship before taking things to a physical level.
If you have to wonder after say, a couple of months where the relationship is going (I’m not talking about marriage, but boyfriend/girlfriend), then you have your answer right there. The guy is just keeping his options open. In the meantime, you keep your options open by continuing to date others.
If you’ve already progressed to being in a relationship and you want to know if the guy is serious about a future, I would wait six months to a year before bringing up the question. When you do, you could say something along the lines of: “I really enjoy the times that we spend together and can see long term potential for this relationship. What do you think?” Make sure that you are not asking this question during sex though. As I’m sure you are well aware, men will say anything during the midst of passion 🙂
Spinster
on 04/10/2011 at 11:57 am
I’m trying not to laugh because my office mates are in front of me. I am SO guilty of the picturing! LMAO! But when I notice my thoughts running ahead of me, I force myself to stop it. That usually puts the brakes on my thoughts pretty fast.
Hey, at least I don’t start clearing my planner for a potential date that could or couldn’t happen. I’m not that ridiculous. 😐 But this DOES give me some extra food for thought because I know that I’m still struggling against negative thoughts about myself sometimes (or daily :-|), and it’s part of the reason why I’m alright with being single for a long time (if not for good).
Bri
on 04/10/2011 at 2:14 pm
Grace,
I know you’re right. I’m not over the MM (he’s been trying to get back in my life, telling me he made a mistake breaking it off and that he’s “trying to figure things out” now – blah) and my feelings for this guy are premature, but it freaks me out that I get this way. It’s exhausting analyzing everything I said or did and comparing it to his actions, making excuses for him when he’s inconsistent just because I find so much about him attractive (and don’t want to feel rejected again).
You also said how I don’t have a problem meeting guys and this one isn’t the last chance saloon, but I act like he is. I don’t have confidence in myself to meet someone else so I latch onto what I’ve got for fear he’s The One. I do like him, and I want this to go somewhere, but even I know (deep down, where the logical part of me is buried) that it has to go slowly, but I’m a planner and I like having things defined and in their place and laid out for me perfectly in order for me to feel comfortable (this goes for every aspect of my life, from the cleanliness of my apartment to my relationships). I wish dating were more transparent and I’d know what he’s thinking and feeling at all times so I don’t have to guess or play the waiting game or force myself not to initiate the “what are we” talk too soon.
My whole life I’ve expected a guy to swoop in and fix my life and make me better, and I always thought if I could just find a good man everything would improve, but it’s not that easy – I have to do the work on my own first, because feeling this anxious and insecure over a text message is insane.
jennynic
on 04/10/2011 at 4:42 pm
Hi Bri, your ex MM said he is trying to figure things out? That means he still is figuring (unavailable) and once again asking you to be available and on hold, (an option) while he is still figuring and still married. Sounds like an invitation to the same old shite. He has lied to you and his wife continually in the past…but maybe he really means it when he says he wants you in his life (as an option still, of course). Same bullshit, different day…still a liar. What a load of crap. He sincerely wants you back as his back door option. Sorry if this comes across as harsh. You are better than him!
If you are still in contact with the ex MM, maybe getting involved with someone else wouldn’t be fair. Put yourself in new guy’s shoes. If you found out he was talking to his recent ex who is still married to someone else….what would you think? It would be a red flag. Slow your roll until you are ready to start something new as well as let go of the old. I have had similar feelings in dating as you, and it can be stressful. Take your time and take care of yourself.
Isabella
on 04/10/2011 at 3:36 pm
Good Post Nat! However, I seem to have the opposite problem here. Men don’t ask for my number, instead they hand me a scrap of paper or a business card with their number. I wish I had that experience of a man asking for my number. They then say “Call me” or “Don’t be a stranger”. What’s up with that? Is this a new dating ritual? I had one guy, ask me to out this summer but never called to set anything up and then when I saw him again, he flirted and then said “Call me”.
Nat, any advice on this?
Fearless
on 04/10/2011 at 6:35 pm
I’m not Nat, but for what it’s worth I think it’s just a lazy way of putting all the effort on to you. It’s like telling you ‘I’m interested in not making any effort; that’s how interested I am! – I want you to make the effort to gain my attention and this is a flavour of what’s to come if you do. I’ll just hand out numbers then sit about scratching my arse cos if I give my number out to enough women one of them will be daft enough to call me up without me having to extend myself one inch. Great’.
Pfft!
Isabella
on 04/10/2011 at 8:41 pm
Thank Fearless,
So frustrating!! What I’m going to do next time is just say “No thanks, don’t bother” mid stream while the card is still in their paws cuz I deserve so much better like effort.
Isabella
on 04/10/2011 at 8:55 pm
Hi Fearless,
Thanks!! What lazy SOBs they are. Next time this happens (which I really hope it doesn’t and I get a guy with a spine and who asks for my number), I am going to say “No thanks” mid stream while the card is their in their hands. Boy will they be surprised and me happy.
Fearless
on 04/10/2011 at 11:38 pm
Isabella
I was thinking same – “err… no thanks”. Or “you having a laugh, or d’you just think a lot of yourself? (and no very much of me?)”
Yes, at very least we are all worth a guy who is interested enough to ask for our number and make the call! (If he won’t do that what is he going to do?)
Ms A
on 04/10/2011 at 11:44 pm
Isabella,
I just say “no, you call me” and frequently they do!
PJM
on 05/10/2011 at 2:29 am
Take the card, write your number on the back, and give it back to them, saying ‘call me’, and then run like hell.
Used
on 05/10/2011 at 3:09 pm
Why not just stick to the facts? When they pull out their cars and say “call me”, say, “are you really doing that, pulling out your card and asking ME to call YOU, and at WORK [,no less]?”
You have to be nice–and serioud–and professional–about how you say this, of course.
This is stating facts, that THEY created, and it is businesslike/professional.
And, remember, they are giving you their BUSINESS card on a PERSONAL matter (a date). In doing what they are doing, they are downgrading things from the get-go. AND they get to have a good laugh at work, if they so desire, with their work buds!
They’ll be shocked, in awe , and/or in admiration.
RadioGirl
on 04/10/2011 at 10:43 pm
This is so true, Fearless, and this lack of effort on his part was the very first of a number of red flags my last ex waved around from the start that I did not heed. A few hours after we had been re-introduced by a mutual friend (we’d been nodding acquaintances at a different club 15 years before, when he was still married) – my ex sent a text to our friend saying “has RadioGirl asked for my phone number yet?”. Twenty minutes later, he sent another which said “if RadioGirl asks for my phone number, you can give it to her”. My friend & I had a good laugh about this, and my initial reaction was to exclaim aloud “no way, not in a million years – what a jerk! Who the hell does he think he is??!!”. And yet, a few days later, I asked him to be my friend on FB (‘cos doing that was “ok” in my warped logic, when asking for his phone number and calling him was not – duh!). All this because my single-for-8-years-self-doubting side was ridiculously flattered to have some male admiration, even though my gut instincts were already shouting that really he wasn’t right/good enough for me. I have sometimes wondered since then if he would’ve bothered to get my number from our friend if I hadn’t “friended” him first on FB…? I think we all know the moral of this tale. In fact, I can think of several morals – not least the tortoise-and-the-hare-style one that says “slow down, there’s no fire!”. These days, I’m with the tortoise – slow but steady progress is best and if in doubt, leave it out.
Tulipa
on 05/10/2011 at 6:33 am
I have a new policy if a guy gives me his phone number I lose it then no awkward conversation is needed and I know they are not interested in me and I have made huge errors in pursuing the guy who didn’t pursue me first. If we cross paths again and they ignore me I know I’ve dodged a bullet.
CC
on 05/10/2011 at 6:00 pm
Has happened to me several times.. and everytime I look at their card they are trying to hand me and say “you can give it to me but I’m not going to call it” and chuckle. Then that usually gets them uppity for a discussion as to why.. as if I have to explain. They know very well why. Laaaaaazy.
Michelle
on 05/10/2011 at 10:35 am
Oh my, this sounds liken the angry train chorus of women on this one. I simply say, “you know what, I prefer to have a man call me”. They always take my number, and many call. I have has many say,”oh I wanted your number but women get uncomfortable when I ask”.
My freak outs happen after the date. Just had one date with someone who won,t be living in my city and was full on prepared to have me play girlfriend for three months. I am ashamed at the dramatic ending to our date. But then I realize despite delivery, expiration dates don,t work for me, and when I think of him because I liked him, I say…. Get out of your imaginary interaction of apologizing for you being you, and go find someone real. And flirt city with the world happens….
Arlena
on 04/10/2011 at 3:54 pm
Me too, in younger years I could skyrocket straight to cloud nine over the fraction of a look and re-entering Earth’s atmosphere with a loud bang crashing to pieces. A lot of this trouble is caused by nature itself. Indeed, nature is our most powerful opponent until we reach our forties. Biology isn’t fooling around, not with its most fertile and under the guise of nameless longings that only erotic love seems able to fulfil nature trips us up. She does well in firing up our hormones, reactivating our infant heartbreaks, melting any sense of self we might have developed and is working hard on us to fulfil her purpose. Nature gives a shit if we are a match, she also doesn’t care about happiness.
Over the years I discovered this influence more and more on both sexes. I must admit that I greatly underestimated these forces. Keeping this in mind it is not only us being stupid and incompetent. It’s not easy to overcome our cavewoman instincts.
At the same time this is good news to all who are nearing forty and beyond because in the second part of life we have good chances of getting out of nature’s clutches, break free and start developing our real SELF. So, ladies, the real stuff, real love (not the romantic versions and illusions we are fed everywhere) might still lie ahead of us not behind. It’s not all over. As one reader put it: “Que sera, sera.”
It got me thinking when an author suggested instead of saying, claiming or craving a dozen romantic “I love you’s” to just fantasise for a moment to actually saying to someone
“I.YOU.”
And yeah, it gave me that interesting feeling of being aware of myself and someone else at the same moment.
Sandra81
on 04/10/2011 at 6:36 pm
I used to be like that when I was younger – from my teens to early 20s. Age often has its word! I remember that I was 15 and I had this crush on a guy I used to see on the hallway at college. We knew each other’s names, but we never went beyond “hello” and “how are you”, but the first time these things happened – celebration time! 😛 One day, my best friend told me (with a funeral look on her face, as if she was telling me that someone died), that the guy in question had a girlfriend (he was in his senior year, so older than us). Imagine I cried for the whole day!!! 😀 Now I saw that guy on Facebook, among the friends of a friend of mine – bald! I wouldn’t go for him nowadays! 😛
On the other hand, when you’re past your teens, I also think that many women get over-enthusiastic about someone they barely know when they feel like they don’t have many options (objectively or not). For example, in many cities, or even countries, the female population dominates over the male one. I experienced that in my home city! It’s like “Oooh, a guy I actually like and who’s not attached! Finally! Thank God! Yuppiiiiii!!!” Next stop: cloud nine. Things going wrong (i.e. him not contacting, not returning calls/messages, etc.) = “end of the world” feeling. Anyway, apart from the obvious “change of location” option, it’s good to try keeping a healthy balance between enthusiasm (after all, we want to feel alive) and objectivity. 🙂
Natasha
on 04/10/2011 at 10:31 pm
Sandra, your teenage story has me giggling! Ahhh, the Good Old Days!
I totally agree with what you mention in your second paragraph. I’m in a situation where I just turned 30 (unfortunately some people think that’s still Spinster Time – oy.) and all of my friends are in relationships/engaged/married. I was out and about last weekend with my girlfriends and a very young looking guy started chatting me up. I asked him how old he was and he replied, “I’m 22, how old are you?” I said, “I just turned 30.” and he said, “No way! You look so young! I had no idea you were a cougar!” Oh. My. God. I think it’s highly possible that if I was less cynical towards men, I would totally be in the “Maybe he’s The One?!” boat 😉
Sandra81
on 05/10/2011 at 7:20 am
Natasha, my dear virtual friend! 🙂 It looks like we are the same age too: I’m turning 30 next month, and people still think I’m in my early 20s. 😉 What’s good for me, though, is that here in Italy where I live, people get married later, rarely below 30. Some of them are in relationships, some of them are not, but they tend to be relaxed about it. So, generally there is no “society pressure”. Only from grandparents and elderly relatives, who would like to see you settled down. 😀 And BTW, my new flame is 23. When we met he thought I was 20. If you saw a picture of us, or saw us on the street without knowing us, you’d think we are the same age. And the funny thing is that the pet name he calls me by translates into something like “puppy”. It makes me feel like “the little one” between the 2 of us! 😛
Natasha
on 05/10/2011 at 1:25 pm
Good for you girl!! He sounds awesome 🙂 I love the nickname! It’s certainly better than “cougar” haha! In the US this is not exactly a positive term, so I meant it more inthe sense of “If I met someone great who didn’t use the term ‘cougar’ I might get excitable as described in the post!” 😉 I love the European attitude towards settling down – I burst out laughing about the older relatives who are dying for it to happen, because the only one in my family that’s worried about it is my grandmother and, yes, she’s Italian!! *Big Hugs*
Sandra81
on 05/10/2011 at 2:49 pm
Well, sometimes I have my moments when I get over-enthusiastic about some “I can’t wait to see you again :-* ” message posted on my wall, or some hearts drawn in messages, or some soft voice on the phone. Ahh, those kids! 😛 But we have known each other for 7 months now. We started out as friends, and at the beginning I didn’t really consider him, mainly because of the age (although I felt kinda attracted to him), and also because he lives in a different city. But gradually I started to believe he is quite mature for his age, as he actually showed me on certain occasions that he is someone you can rely on in times of trouble. I started having stronger feelings for him about 3 months after meeting him. Although we are still in the “discovering phase”, so not in a proper relationship, trust and respect for each other as people have always been there. Many people are saying to me: “just enjoy his company, whether it’s gonna be long term or not, without worrying that it might end”. Should I, should I not…? 😉
As far as the “cougar” term is concerned, I also know a girl who is a couple of years younger than me, but still acts “cougar-ish”. She looks a bit older, and she is like a lady-vamp, who lures younger men in and then deceives them. She’s like the female version of my ex! Haha! 😛 So, I think that boy of yours was either kidding, either he’s really silly.
Big hugs to you too, and, as a friend of mine said… remember that 30 is the new 18! 😀
Natasha
on 05/10/2011 at 5:07 pm
Sandra, if we can’t get a little goobly over a guy that we really like once and awhile…what’s the point?! I say go for it! One of my friends got married last year and she is 32 and her husband is 27 – they couldn’t be happier or better suited to eachother. You know what red flags look like and how to act on them, so be confident and enjoy!
p.s. I’m totally getting “30 is the new 18” t-shirts made. In bulk.
Carrie
on 05/10/2011 at 5:54 pm
Sandra – the only thing I’d warn you about with early 20 somethings is that he still has his “quarter life crisis” to get through. And nowadays they’re a doozy! It seems to happen around 25ish and I remember my own.. when it suddenly occurred to me “THIS is all there is? This is life?” when you realize what you’ve been doing is what you’ll keep doing every day. So enjoy your guy but be practical because when it hits (assuming you’re still together), he’ll be second guessing everything – including your relationship!
Sandra81
on 06/10/2011 at 1:24 pm
Carrie, what I would rather worry about is another thing. Personally, I don’t believe in that “quarter life crisis” that much. I haven’t gone through what you say, and neither have my friends. On the contrary, I still felt at the beginning of the road, in the midst of experiences to be explored, without second-guessing anything. And even now, things are pretty much the same. BUT, what I would worry about at this very moment is: is he ready for a relationship *right now* or *in the near future*? I’m not sure. Yes, he is a good person and he wouldn’t hurt me on purpose, but what if sooner or later he’d want to “spread his wings”? And girls adore him: competition is fierce. 😛 Well, I guess that only time will tell what to expect from him… 😉
Dumbstruck
on 04/10/2011 at 7:04 pm
Im so glad I found this site. It seems to speak directly to me. Over the past couple of weeks I have found myself acting like Im twelve again. Ive known this guy for about six years. We were on a very friendly simple conversation basis. We lived in the same building then both moved out. We began working together on a project, from the first meeting together, sparks began to fly. We always sat super close, he asked alot of questions about me, we laughed joked etc. We worked together once per week and it became my favorite day of the week. When I left, I always on cloud nine. It was magnetic…I just knew eventually what was going to happen..in addition to meeting to work together on the weekends, we talked every day for hours. I mean two three hours a s day. ..morning..afternoon…evening…late night. Finally one weekend we became friends with benefits. We never talked about it..we simply continuedwith our normal routine.
About a month ago, things began to change. He was calling less. and when he did call, I would not answer right away. He became annoyed with me. If I asked him questions he was evasive. It became tense. He said I had changed and was acting weird…to make a long story short, he said he didnt want a relationship then listed all of the ten thousand reasons why…
Since then it hasnt been the same..we only discuss the project now. I have put alot of time and effort into our project, but its not comfortable now because he only wants to meet in public places as if Im going to be overcome with lust and attack him….I have been crying like a teenager and feeling extremely depressed. Im going to try to take the wonderful advice on this site but its hard..thanks for listening…
runnergirl
on 05/10/2011 at 1:22 am
Dumbstruck,
I’m so sorry about your situation. It so reminds me of how the affair started with the ex MM. We were working on a project together too. I knew of him for over a decade before the big project. I remember when we’d meet in the beginning and I dreaded it because he simply didn’t know what he was doing. As things progressed, he began to listen to me and I began to think about what I would wear when we met. Bad sign! There were sparks and it was magnetic even when he didn’t know what he was doing.
“Finally one weekend we became friends with benefits. We never talked about it..we simply continued with our normal routine.” Yup, that’s how it started for me too. And that’s how it ended for me too with the added confusion regarding the fact he was married. Keep reading BR. Get Natalie’s new edition of Mr. U and the FBG. It has changed my life. There is light at the end of the tunnel, I think. And allow yourself to cry. Welcome to BR. Natalie has created such a wonderful safe healing harbor. Thank you Natalie and Happy BR B-DAY.
Dumbstruck
on 05/10/2011 at 2:36 pm
Hi Runner Girl,
Thank you for the warm welcome. Im already obsessed with this blog and I think I may have to make it my homepage, or make sure I keep it open on my blackberry in case of any relationship emergencies. I actually feel proud of myself because in terms of dating, I have learned to ease up and thats why these feelings for this guy have caught me off guard. We not only lived in the same building, he was actually the landlord. He always looked out for me..was willing to work with me when I was short on funds, if I needed anything he was always there. His wife passed away four years ago and he had to sell the house which is why we no longer live in the same building. I say all thiis to say that he is not just some random guy I had feelings for, this was a long time coming. The hardest part is letting those feelings go. Its even harder because we are working together on this project. So as soon as I hear his voice, Im thrown for a loop all over again. Im glad Natalie created this blog, its practical advice, now if I can follow it remains to be seen….
Artemisia
on 04/10/2011 at 8:15 pm
This post bring back (bad) memories
Had I used the hanging-by-the-phone time wisely, I would be able to play Liszt by now.
Freaking is indeed a sign that you are not ready.
What you think you don’t exist until someone notices you and you hang on to an external sign of validation for dear life? No thanks. Lets not go back to that. When you obsesses about a guy it means you are not the center of your own life. Feeling a little high because someone asked for your number should be like a little does vitamin C or a shot of B12 for THEM. You already know you are a prize. If they don’t follow through, it is their loss, not YOURS.
You have to be high-self-esteem maintenance to the point of being a bitch about it, and do what ever needs to be done that keep it at your above acceptable level. And by Bitch I don’t mean a preening (secretly insecure) queen on Louboutin who needs others as a reflection of her value, I mean a woman who keeps quiet when her ex-husband says in a paper that their marriage was boring, being quiet is unerving to male idiots, it freaks them out.
I have a friend who uses The Game rules, he asks out women as a mood pick me up when he feels a little down. I watched him ask a girl out in front of her mother and she approved !!!! He has 3 women on the go because he can’t handle a real woman and commitment, so these women are on rotation to serve his needs. What they feel doesn’t register.
Can you imagine George Clooney asking you out. You would feel like a queen.
And then you read the contract : looking your best at all times, Italy on a diet, no pasta after 12 pm, no chit-chat about commitment or where the relationship is going to and no life of your own.
After a while, you might say – why did I ever gave you my number? Or worse say, when reality clashes with your fantasy “ you are not who I thought you were”. And he will answer you ” I told you I was not the marrying kind from the start”.
Natasha
on 04/10/2011 at 10:39 pm
Artemisia, I love your comment! One of my girlfriends was all distraught over the break-up of Leonardo DiCaprio and Blake Lively (I know, I know…but, it’s not like we spent a solid 15 minutes talking about it…never…no…not us) and I was like, “It was classic EUM. He had broken up with a long-time girlfriend that he jerked around for several years, then he takes up with her and his friends are yapping in US Weekly that, ‘He’s never felt this way about a girl! We’ve never seen him so into anyone!'” and a few months later it’s kaput.
Artemisia
on 05/10/2011 at 1:26 pm
I loved Jane Lynch gag at the Emmy about why she is a Lesbian – “here is the cast of Entourage”, which is really funny if you have seen the show a few times.
The gossip girl and Leo had a European summer romance in Europe arranged by his agent. It had to be the ”I need a girl for the summer ” thing, she was a sorbet between models, ( they serve sorbet in posh places to clean your palate, some men apply it between women).
Then again if I was 20 something and Leo asked me out, I would ignore his dating history, all the red-flags, and have a wonderful time in Italy. All that food and drink will help you silence those niggling thoughts that he is playing you.
I wonder if Gossip Girl has read the Valley of the Dolls.
One of my friends chats up women, despite the fact that he is in a relationship because he needs to check if he still attractive to the opposite sex. Now he says he can flirt with women more easily now that he is in a relationship as he is relaxed and secure that he has a woman at home who loves him. He gets their numbers and never calls them.
I usually scream at him, but he is the first to tell any woman who asks if the guy she is dating is having fun or he is being serious.
Natasha
on 05/10/2011 at 5:02 pm
Oh, Artemisia, so true! One of my cousins lives in Israel and the rumour over there is that Leo’s been making sweet, commitment-phobic love to his ex, the Israeli supermodel. Whenever I hear people say “IT’S ME! I wasn’t pretty or successful enough.” (I’ve done it too!) I remind them that neither Gisele Bundchen or Bar Refaeli could get his ass to the altar. ‘Nuff said!
p.s. I decided to go to a therapist a few years ago and got there early one day. Luckily, I had a book with me. That book was Valley Of The Dolls. The other people in the waiting room must have been like, “OH GIRL.” 😉
Artemisia
on 06/10/2011 at 1:27 pm
Ah the hard life of an avoidant -attachment style millionaire modeliser !
I am quite familiar with the relationship the avoidant -attachment style bloke. Thank heaven for therapy, as now they I can smell their bull after a few breaths, and they no longer awake my anxiety.
When really fed up with their way of loving you and don’t seem to come back to them to them , they start to be obsessed with you and do everything to get you back. Once back, it takes them 1 minute start to feel engulfed by your mere presence. When they have you, instead of feeling secure, they panic and you feel anxious and you blame yourself – it must be me, I am needy and insecure, when it’s really them.
With me it was shame and guilt about my own mess that kept me attached to a series of men making me feel bad for being in love with people who could not offer true intimacy. I can’t say how enough how reading Stephen Carter & Julia Sokol saved my sanity, and this blog is brilliant.
I loved Valley Of the Dolls, cult classic and feminist before it’s time.
PJM
on 05/10/2011 at 2:24 am
Artemisia – I love it. No pasta after 12pm? And me with my own pasta machine?
Well, George is just going to have to miss out, isn’t he.
I have to say – and Nat, this is kind of going out on a limb here, but it works for me – I sometimes let my mind go and DO the whole fast-forward 60 years thing with a guy I’ve just met.
I do it deliberately, and I stand by and watch it, and then I have an almighty laugh at myself. Then, just as deliberately, I fast-forward 60 years with any of the men I’ve had disasters with, and imagined how it would have been had we married. And then I come away, usually quite sobered.
So I’d suggest that if you CAN’T control your urge to fast-forward, at least use it in a productive and constructive way – follow the whole process through to the bitter end, to keep your feet firmly on the ground!
Artemisia
on 05/10/2011 at 1:39 pm
I think George makes them sign gagging contracts.
I remember a guy I went out with, long time ago, I got so high after he asked me out, he looked like prince charming, I floated for a while.
He turned out to be the most malignant-craven passive-aggressive man I had ever be out with. Talk of deflated. But I learned so much.
Samantha
on 04/10/2011 at 10:17 pm
NO you are not the only one Natasha, definitely lol. I am under a lot of pressure from my parents to get married (I am only 25), but never my sister who has had a steady boyfriend for the last four years and my brother who has had the same girlfriend for 9 years.
Anyways, I find the phone number to mean nothing at this point. If he does not call within the first few days, I am pretty sure he is not interested. If he calls after that, I am not interested because he is only looking for one thing.
Natasha
on 05/10/2011 at 1:34 pm
Samantha, you should tell your parents, “I’m 25 and therefor in absolutely no danger of drying up anytime soon!” Oy vey, PARENTS.
I totally agree with your take on calling. I don’t put a ton of stock in them taking my phone number either and I completely agree that if they “pop up” after not making the initial call in a reasonable amount of time…yup, it’s either “one thing” or “something else didn’t work out” haha! They snooze, they lose.
A
on 05/10/2011 at 1:38 am
Isabella, my take is that the guys handing out their numbers are the lazy ones. They don’t want to put the effort into calling a woman, and would rather pass out their numbers, sit back, and see what kind of a response they get. I wouldn’t waste my time. That’s not to say that when you’re seeing someone you shouldn’t call him, but my experience has been that the guys who have handed me their numbers have not been worth my time. The guys who are interested don’t want to risk you not calling; they want to get your number so that they can be in touch.
A guy asking for your number is just that: a guy asking for your number. Really, doesn’t mean a damn thing until he calls, schedules a date, and then actually shows up for the date. That’s my experience, anyway.
MaryC
on 06/10/2011 at 3:10 am
So true Jordan so true.
Sarah C
on 05/10/2011 at 4:12 pm
Heres a question I have been pondering.. if a guy says he will call you Monday and doesn’t til Tuesday, should you mention it, or ignore it and mark it as a ‘red flag’ ? This has happened to me many a time before my epiphany, and the relationship has always gone the same way (badly). I have been tempted to say ‘ but what happened to yesterday/2 days ago’ but have always been afraid that they would mark you down as ‘needy’ / ‘bunny boiler’ or should I have mentioned it to show my ‘boundaries’ (that I sadly did not have at the time), any suggestions? I am not ready to date again yet but I will certainly be approaching the WHOLE dating thing very differently. If only I had found BR sooner !!((Trouble is in the UK we don’t seem to have the hang of this dating thing, (but thats another story)!!)
Allison
on 06/10/2011 at 3:25 pm
Sarah,
Is this before you have gone out?
Personally, if it happened more than twice-w/o an apology and legitimate reason- I would let him go. I need people I can depend on. But, that’s just me.
I don’t think I would say anything, as I don’t want to sound like a parent, and they should know better.
sm
on 06/10/2011 at 4:52 pm
Sarah, just this year a guy did the exact same thing to me. The first time I didnt say anything and just chalked it up to him being busy. I went on a first date with him in which he arranged a specific time to call me the next day. He called 4 days later, I let it roll into vmail, he gave no excuse, I didnt return his call so he called in a panic the next day. I let it roll into vmail again and never returned his call. I had just finished with my last eum/ac and I just couldnt take the BS anymore.
Natasha
on 06/10/2011 at 5:38 pm
Sarah C, I think a one day lapse is okay, especially if it’s before the date. Most people will say something like, “Sorry I didn’t call yesterday, blah blah happened.” Even if they don’t, I think it’s fine to still go on the date in the absence of any other amber/red flags. People do genuinely have things come up and if they are consistent and genuinely interested, you’ll know. Equally, if someone’s a boundary buster/just looking to pass time there will be other things going on other than phone issues. Hope this helps!
Dumbstruck
on 05/10/2011 at 5:33 pm
Unless its Denzel, I no longer get excited over a guy asking me for my number..some guys will call you right away just to make sure its your number. How awkward is that when you have given a fake number and the guy is dialing it right in front of you….LOL
The number exchange aint what it used to be because everyone is looking to connect on some sort of business level etc…Ive become very jaded. Im forty one and a single mother and at this point I dont think I will ever be asked out on an actual date again. Im usually approached by men whos underlying motive is to find a place to live or only want sex…
PJM
on 06/10/2011 at 12:16 am
I think: don’t give a fake number, ever. Don’t be that dishonest.
If you have the urge to give a fake number, then that’s your heart telling you NOT TO GIVE A NUMBER AT ALL.
Follow that urge, but don’t lie – it’s too awful (especially if he can now check up on you!)
Tales from a Bar Stool
on 06/10/2011 at 4:31 am
Love this. An expression of interest certainly doesn’t equal professing his love. In fact, some men work the game of odds when they are out: getting a handful of phone numbers knowing that at least one of them will be a winner. Sad, yet true.
Lily
on 06/10/2011 at 2:58 pm
Totally agree with Jordan. Very practical, level-headed and realistic. The only way to not immediately go into crazy “OMG is he the ONE?!?!” hand-wringing mode if you make contact with a guy is to remember to focus on yourself. At the end of the day, you are still you, with your life, friends, interests, values, etc. If the thought of being by yourself (which is different from being lonely – that happens to all of us!) is scary, or you get this feeling of or KNOW you don’t love yourself, then that is what you have to work on, not trying to be not be “OMG” crazy-like around meeting a guy. Bottom line: get yourself in order and the rest will follow.
Here’s a great example of another level-headed person: “I went to this party and I met this guy. We started talking immediately by ourselves, off in a corner. He asked if I was single and seemed pleased when I said I was. Whenever we split up to talk to other people, or to get drinks or whatever, he always kept his eye on me. It was really cool. I was all excited and fluttery with that “Oh my God, I think I just met someone!” feeling. He didn’t ask for my number, but we know lots of people in common, so I thought he was just playing it cool. He never called me! And you know what? Normally I would call our mutual friends and start fishing and trying to figure out what happened and maybe try to find another way to see him again. But instead, I’m just going to move on! Who cares what his deal is. He’s not asking me out, so why should I start obsessing over him? I’m just going to go out tonight and try to meet someone else.” from: (near the bottom)
Cinderella11pm
on 06/10/2011 at 6:22 pm
When I was lonely and desperate, I’d freak out like that. Your advice is good.
Now I don’t expect anything and am busy enough to be indifferent.
Gina
on 09/10/2011 at 8:28 pm
I thought of it this way too, just as i have the right to change my mind about being interested and want that respected so does the man. Who knows why he didnt call you and really its not a big deal if your living your life. I used to fast forward, i had everything planned in my mind, so when they didnt call, i felt like i was dumped bc we were practically a couple before they called me, in my mind lol.
Dumbstruck
on 13/10/2011 at 5:58 pm
Natalie, I was wondering if you could move into my home in NYC, because Im really not comprehending this “no contact” thing…lol. As I mentioned before, my friend with benefits, has decided to drop the benefits and basically drop me as a friend. We only talk about the project which is me being his publicist.
He asks how I am doing just to be nice and to make sure Im still willing to work with him but its not the same as before. We used to talk for three hours at a time and only a small portion of the conversation was spent talking about work .I also know now that he must be seeing someone else and its killing me. He says he will call and sometimes he will other times he doesnt or if we are talking and he gets another call then I dont hear back from him before he would never interrupt our conversations not even to talk to his own brother …..Im really surprised at myself for letting this get to me the way it is…Im at my wits end…
AmyGirl
on 15/10/2011 at 3:18 pm
This post (and all of your wonderful insight after) has really spoken to me. I accepted a date with a man for later this weekend, and feel that I don’t want to go!
He has done everything “right” so far, but my self esteem is getting in the way. He is ridiculously handsome, successful in his career, lives in a great area of town…..and interested in ME?
This is 100% MY PROBLEM. If I cancelled the date, it would be because I didn’t feel “worthy”. I’m worried about my clothes! I’m worried about my car! Sweet Moses, I need to calm down.
Thanks, Girls! I’ve been lurking for 5 months now, and love the community here!
Amy
ETA: It just occurred to me my poor self esteem was what led me to assclowns to whom I felt “superior” and not INFERIOR like I do right now. EPIPHANY! 🙂
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When you have poor beliefs about yourself and relationships, somebody who asks for your number and never calls just exacerbates those beliefs. I used to let that sort of stuff eat me up inside and it just took me further down the spiral of “see, I knew I wasn’t good enough”. Once you start loving yourself more and deciding that you are a person of value and deserve love and a healthy relationship… guys that ask for your number and don’t call literally roll right off your back. You are not validating yourself based on outside sources any longer and therefore a simple non-act like that is just a nothing. I don’t derive my value anymore based on whether a guy likes me or not or calls or not. Its the ultimate freedom.
So true Nat! One of my friends used to do this habitually in our younger days and I thought, “Sweet Jesus woman, you’ve met him like twice, who cares?” (Personally, I really had my shit together. I only got into a state over an assclown who boomeranged me for several years. *AHEM*) If a guy you’ve only met a few times doesn’t call – I don’t think it’s really that much of a rejection, because they don’t know you well enough to reject you. It can feel like it for sure, but this person has spent maybe a few hours in your company – it’s not a judgement on you as a person! On the other side of the coin, you don’t know him well enough to be that invested.
I think it’s totally natural to go through a stage where we go around with the Assclown Watch magnifying glass up to guys and the Fallback Girl Threat Level System in full effect. Yes, it’s important to have your eyes wide open and check your own attitudes, but keep in mind that dating is SUPPOSED TO BE SOMEWHAT FUN. Oh yes. I said it. Many of us haven’t, errrrr, exactly experienced it that way for sure, but I think it’s an important thing to keep in mind 🙂
p.s. Nat, I’d love to see a post someday on friends/family who meddle in our love lives and try to force us to date people we have no interest in. This has been a big ol’ problem for me recently and I’m sure I can’t be the only one! xo
Natasha,
Yeah, I went to a family member’s wedding the other night and per usual, an uncle (always asks me) asked me when I was going to be married. I knew it was coming. It made me feel sad because I am not married yet. BUT if I had married any of the guys I dated before, I’d be up a humongous shitcreek without a paddle! They were all chosen for wrong reasons. They just reinforced the old belief that no man wants me, I am invisible, I am unlovable bla bla bla.
There was a guy in high school that a mutual friend hooked me up with. Me having the low self-esteem, willing to take any kind of attention from a guy whatsoever and wiling to do just about anything to have it, I fooled around with him. And what happened? He never called again. I hardly knew him. I was ready to kill myself, I was so distraught. It was pathetic. Usually, when I have met men and they asked for my number, they did call. But I don’t get this a lot so it’s been few and far between. Though I’m all worn out on the ten excuses why he can’t call bit. That is all bull and I’m over it. I know I get excited when I meet a new guy. Since I have been single, even with the hiccups that have come along, it has cleared my muddled mind about relationships. With men. I hope it keeps clearing out. I have to say I hope my shy nature is not putting men off though. eeek!
Color, if I had a nickel for ever relative, friend of my parents, convenience store clerk (I wish I was kidding.), etc. that said “Why aren’t you married yet?” or “When are you getting married?”, I would be typing this from my private jet while toasting my success with my two new best friends, Jay-Z and Duchess Catherine.
Have I gone home and shed actual tears over said comments? You betcha. Like you, I know I wouldn’t have wanted to end up married to anyone I’ve dated, unless I wanted my life to turn into a Lifetime Movie entitled “Not Without My Assclown: The Natasha Story” or “Mother, May I Legally Bind Myself To An Asshole?”. Those comments do make me feel like, “Ohmygod. I’m so chronically single, people NOTICE. Horrors.” I have to remind myself that some people are nosy and for different generations it’s a normal question to ask (normal = highly annoying, yet technically socially acceptable).
It sounds like you are dating with the right mindset – good for you!! I wouldn’t worry about shyness putting a man off – I think shyness can actually come off as a little mysterious, which is quite sexy. Work it to you advantage lady 🙂
“Not Without My Assclown…”…..ahahahaha! Oh, Natasha, you crack me up!
Natasha and color,
if it’s any consolation, by the time you get past about 40 – 45 yrs. people just stop asking! It used to really annoy me too . It never occured to me when I was young that I wouldn’t ever get married, but it’s sure looking that way now! I felt such a failure. Now I don’t give a shit (but it took me a long time to get there – age, mainly, and folk not asking anymore – folk not expecting that I’d be able to catch a man, not at my age! is what I can imagine is there reasoning.) When they stop asking, you realise that everyone just thinks you are un-marry-able, for whatever reason – too ugly or too old! If they’re still asking it’s cos they don’t yet think you’re too ugly or too old! They think you are marry-able so what’s keeping you? But really they are putting their own expectations or values of life etc. on to you – and I always used to think, ‘what the hell answer do you expect to get to that question?… what the hell do you expect me to feel other than ‘bad’ at you asking me that – are you pointing out where you think I am failing?!’ As Natasha said, folk think I too am chronically single. They’re obviously correct about that.
I was just thinking about all this this morning. I am dating someone new, over two months now, and I’ve had a couple private freak out moments where I had to talk myself off the ledge. Why hasn’t he called, checking my phone ten times and really thinking the worst. We barely know each other in the scheme of things and for me to get worked up about him not calling when I think he should is kind of childish (lets face it, I wasn’t calling him either). He can’t read my mind and his pace isn’t necessarily my pace. There are no set rules on this, unless he says he is going to call a certain day….then it is fair to expect him to. Recently, I was getting anxious because it had been five days since he called. I was sure he wasn’t into me and was doing the fade out. I stressed, I got grumpy, felt rejected and had my finger on the flush button without even talking to him. The guy friend who introduced us suggested I just call him and feel it out. I stressed over this too, fearing rejection. Finally I did leave him a message that I felt like I was getting mixed messages from him and could we talk? He called me back the same day and said that he had been thinking the same things and that I didn’t seem interested in him and that he’d been losing some sleep over what to do next. Then he invited me over for dinner….without hesitation. Both of us being guarded came across as indifference. He also told me that night that he wasn’t dating anyone else without me having to ask. In this instance, I realized how futile it was to sit and simmer in my fears, so I stuck my neck out a little and instead of just sitting and waiting, waiting and waiting ( and freakin myself out) I decided to take part in deciding the pace and communicated like an adult. Once I wrapped my head around it I thought…just call him and find out….whats the big deal, quit being a drama baby about it. I am a little old fashioned and don’t chase after guys but I wanted to break my past pattern of waiting for him to do all the investing before I will. Besides what was the worst that could happen? Him not liking me? Sure it would of been a bruise on my ego but my fragile ego doesn’t rule me anymore. Dating in a healthy way is tough for a recovering FBG, it means checking and rechecking yourself, while keeping your eyes open for red flags on both sides.
I also want to add…..It helps to learn how to enjoy the experience of dating instead of viewing it as a hostile game. It’s not life or death, its just dating. Take your time and smell the roses along the way…..if they start to stink, move on. If you come into it with negative beliefs you will most likely have a negative experience. I have keep reminding myself of this when I start to flounder a little.
Nat,
Once again you are spot on! I’ve been guilty of behaving like this in the past and so have some of my girlfriends. I find this behavior to be especially true of women who have not been in a relationship for long periods of time, and who are both horny and lonely.
I believe that if we women live full and interesting lives irrespective of being in a relationship, when a man comes along and shows interest, we are less likely to get all worked up and visualize ourselves walking down the aisle before we’ve even gone out on a date with the guy! Now that I’m a bit older and wiser, I have a ‘Que sera, sera’ attitude about the whole dating process.
For example, a guy whom I’d met online and chatted with on the phone asked me out one Saturday night. On Friday night he contacted me to tell me that he’d met someone whom he unexpectedly made a connection with and wanted to pursue that. I told him to go for it, thanked him for being upfront and honest, and wished him all the best. I then made plans to meet some friends (both guys and gals) for dinner in the city. I had a blast with my friends and didn’t even give the guy who cancelled the date on me a second thought!
Que sera, sera!!
Wow, that was very mature of him to be upfront with you like that. Never done the online dating before, but men and women that people meet in person don’t even keep it real like that a lot of the time….good for you to not dwell on something before it even got started. Life is too short.
Thanks so much for this post! It could not have come at a better time for me. I went on a second date with a guy yesterday, and I like him quite a bit. And here I sit hoping he’ll call me. But you are so right: I DON’T EVEN KNOW THE GUY AFTER TWO DATES and I’ve been fast forwarding and imagining how great it could be with him, etc. etc. This post was exactly what I needed to slap some sense into me at this very moment!
Super post as always, Nat, and totally on the money.
I suppose once again it’s about learning to listen to your own heart. Over-eagerness tells you a huge amount about where you are emotionally, and what you really want (ANYONE! NOW!).
We do future-fake ourselves, and we do ignore our own internal red flags just as much as we ignore those in others. Perhaps if we learn to control these things in ourselves and watch out for our own red flags, we’ll be more alert to them in the men we date.
@Natasha – i’d love to see that post too! no, you aren’t the only one..except with me- it’s friends who are trying to hook me up– not family.. my dad did ask when he’d meet someone though…(i’m a couple yrs shy of 3.0….
“p.s. Nat, I’d love to see a post someday on friends/family who meddle in our love lives and try to force us to date people we have no interest in. This has been a big ol’ problem for me recently and I’m sure I can’t be the only one!”
CamiB, I knew I wasn’t the only one haha! My issue is with friends rather than family as well. I just turned 30 last month and one of their attitudes is like, “You must have a man. ANY MAN. This is life or death. If you don’t like him, I’m going to scold you like a toddler and tell you that you don’t know how to run your own life.” I feel you sister, I really do!
Yep, stop the freaking projection.
No man – no human being – is worth the kind of emotional and psychic energy described here.
This is so similar to what I’m going through right now. I’ve been on four dates with a guy I knew back in college and we recently reconnected, years later. He’s crazy attractive, super intelligent, and I love talking to and being around him. However, I’m freaking out about what we are and where he sees this going and whether or not he’s looking for a relationship.
I read into every text he sends, move he makes, look he gives me and try to analyze them to figure out how he’s feeling. I know it’s too early to have “the talk” but this whole dating thing is giving me heart palpitations. I always jump into things and want to have them defined right away, and I feel unsettled not knowing what he’s thinking.
I’m trying to keep an eye out for red flag behavior (sometimes he can be inconsistent), and I feel like I’m already too invested. I really like this guy and the connection we’ve established so far is great, but I know it’s still founded on appearance and common interests, to quote NML.
Ugh NML, you are so inside my head – I really am treating this guy like the messiah and putting my life on hold waiting for the next text/call/date; instead of enjoying the time we spend together and the dating experience as a whole, I’m driving myself crazy trying to get to the next step in order to establish something more serious as soon as possible. The amount of time I spend checking my phone and/or his Facebook page is pathetic. I don’t even know if he’s seeing other people or not!
I’m going to re-read this article many times this week; everything Natalie says is exactly what I need to keep in mind. I want to try and pull back so I don’t put out the desperate girl vibe, but obsessing and over-investing seems to be second-nature for me.
Bri
I would suggest (to you and to to others) that if dating causes anxiety and heart palpitations you may not be ready for it. You don’t have any problems meeting men, it’s not like you’ll be missing out forever if you took some time out.
It’s not about managing your actions so you don’t give out the desperate girl vibe. It’s about not BEING the desperate girl.
To get over a relationship and move on takes more than a few weeks and a new man. All that happens is you take the baggage from the previous relationship and move it to the next one, and the next one, and the baggage gets bigger and bigger until you implode. All the stuff about this man being super attractive etc you said about the last one.
I understand the urge to do it because it seems so painful to be on your own. I did it myself. If I could turn back time the one thing I would change is to give myself some breathing space between relationships.
Grace, Great reply. Very helpful to me. Thanks.
Hear hear, Grace! I do love your comments – people would do themselves a huge favour by heeding your very level-headed advice.
This is another superb blog, Natalie. I love how the whole BR site contains all the advice and insight we need to go forward and lead a fully-expressed and fulfilled life, whether or not that life has a romantic partner in it. Also, the ongoing coaching and encouragement you provide with each new piece you write, together with all the readers’ comments, is a great support especially when the going starts to get a bit tough from time to time. My own current “recovery” from relationship breakup trauma (and, actually, coping with life in general) would certainly be a lot harder without the wealth of support and resources you’ve built up here over the years. Many, many thanks, and congratulations on notching up 6 successful years of Baggage Reclaim – proof, though none is needed, that your work is much-needed and much-appreciated by your readers.
I do not agree that if you have anxiety, you are not ready. I tend to anxious in dating in general, and the way I w ork on getting better is to feel it and work on why itis happening. Soothing techniques. If I were to wait, I would never date anyone I even remotely like. So I tell myself all of the stuff in the entry and that I am ok no matter what. To blanket say any anxiety means no dating does not work. Prior to the dates, I feel great about myself. So there is more going on.
Bri,
What do you mean by inconsistent?
I was just wondering the other day where you were Bri! Just a few weeks ago you were kind of a mess over the MM.. there’s just no way you’re ready to date again! Take everything Natalie has talked about, truly loving yourself first and knowing your self esteem is high enough to make good decisions for you, and run with that.. Not run immediately to another man! I’m 4 months past the break up, 3 months living on my own, and for a moment last week I considered getting back into dating again. My online profile was up for a day before I realized I was having massive anxiety about it.. going back and forth about whether I was ready. And it occurred to me that when I can’t keep a decision, it’s most likely my gut telling me I’m trying to do something that’s not right for me. So I took the profile back down and I am going to wait until I know I’m ready. Besides I really like being on my own.. not having to think about anyone else.. and I’m definitely not ready to give that up yet. I’m looking forward to dating for sure, but only when I’m actually ready.
Hi Bri,
Good to hear from you. I just learned another lesson about trusting my judgment, self-esteem, and slowing my roll. Do you trust your judgment with this new guy so soon after the exMM?
Taking a break to heal and gain some perspective between the ex MM and another relationship has been the greatest gift I have given to myself. I just about jumped the tracks though. Fortunately, I’ve started listening to me. Are you listening to you? My best to you as always.
Hi Bri: ditto what everyone else said. I suddenly understood what NML meant when she compares going back into dating like running into traffic. When I saw your post, considering where you are at re the MM, I felt like I was hearing you say you have decided to go and play dollies on the freeway. I want to jump in and rescue you, but you have to rescue yourself. Sounds like instead of rescuing yourself from dating insanity, you’re looking for a guy to rescue you from your life.
I have a pretty cousin who could never go a day without having a guy in play. She had a hard childhood and the attention of a guy was her love-substitute, a drug she couldn’t say no to. Now she’s a single mom.
I tried to grit my teeth and be alone as if it were surviving banishment and hated it; I tried relationships that gave me nervous breakdowns from the get-go. Only now pushing forty do I realize how there is no avoiding learning to love yourself and enjoy being who you are independently.
Don’t let either of these situations be you. Who are you, Bri? What do you love? What do you bring? What’s so terrible about your life that you have to have some guy distracting you from it?
S
Bri, I was wondering where you were, too, and hoping that you did not go back to the MM. Glad to hear that you didn’t! The last question Magnolia posted above for you is a good one to contemplate, and one that I was just asking myself last night. I used the MM situation and all its drama to distract me from all the stuff I need to work on in my life. It’s been two months NC now and last night I felt the enormity of the chasm between how my life is *now* and how I envision it to be, how I’d like to create it to be. I’m never going to bridge that chasm, though, until I deal with myself. Any dating at this point for me would be further distraction and drama and cause more pain for myself and perhaps an innocent party. I feel a little depressed about it all, right now, but dating to get a boost to my self-esteem would only be a hit from the crack pipe and send me into a drug-induced fog of not being real. Being in an MM situation is a big enough hit on the crack pipe to last a lifetime. So this new guy you’re seeing is single, but the situation sounds like another way to “lose” yourself (but have you found yourself yet?). All the best to you!!!
I’m sorry, but Bri, are you not the same woman who ‘couldn’t live without’ the MM about five minutes ago?
Forgive me but I have never understood how people go about switching all of their attentions (their love, focus, desires, whatever it is) from one guy to another so swiftly. Now, after four dates you are obsessing and preoccupied over some other guy, really? Maybe you should stand back a bit and put this kind of energy into getting to know yourself rather than getting to know another man – they surely can’t be that interchangeable, can they? – or have I been missing something all my life?
fearless
I used to do that too, just switch from one man to the other.
It’s not about the man – he really is interchangeable, it’s an attempt to escape our own issues. It’s not dissimilar to men switching from one woman to another, no matter how much we try to justify it. I do regret it, not least because I came off worse a number of times! I wouldn’t do it again and I didn’t do it with the last two men, which is how I was able to get off the merry go round.
Bri,
I so agree with the ladies!
Why not take a man break and get some healing time!
I like the lottery comparison. We overreact because we don’t believe, really, that a guy could be genuinely interested in us. So, when a man expresses interest, it’s all like Ripley’s Believe It Or Not:
“Could be TRUE??? Could he be interested in lil’ ol’ ME?”
It has to get to the point where a man’s interest in us isn’t like him dangling the proof that we really are loveable after all.
Here’s where I’m at on the learning curve: there is a guy in one of my social circles – we’ve been acquainted for under a year. We’ve had a few conversations. Cute. Incompatible, unfortunately. No asking for my number, but he has expressed thoughtful interest in my thoughts or opinions. That’s enough for me! The other day he smiled to himself at something I said. I was talking to others; I caught his smile out of the corner of my eye.
Be still my heart! I fantasized for three days!! I’m still trying to reel it in.
It triggered me into the obsessing zone because it seemed like he genuinely likes me, and I still find that hard to process. And not only does he like looking at me – he likes either how I talk or what I said. (That, or he had some gas, or was thinking of something entirely else!) I was trying to figure out how such a small smile could launch a thousand ships in my heart. At the same time, I have wondered if he feels the same tension I do.
Took me a while, but then I realized: it’s because it seems like a fricking sea change in the entire natural order to believe that a guy like him might actually enjoy a woman like me, or even have a tiny crush. And I couldn’t stop the obsessing until I said to myself Magnolia, okay, why not say sure, he likes you. If you can believe that, if you can make that judgment call yourself, without getting further proof from him, and without making it either a statement about your awesome attractiveness or your incredible ego (it IS possible someone likes you a little bit) – well, then what?
I realized that if him expressing interest in me isn’t apocalyptic, then I’m in a position to ask myself what I want to do with his warmth. He can like me – in our capacity as acquaintances – without me doing a thing. I can accept, enjoy, let it confirm that I’m okay and crushable. And that’s it.
I now look forward to the same kind of interest and warmth from others; men and women. The above experience helped me notice today when one of my female colleagues seemed genuinely, warmly happy to see me. I AM worth that. Doesn’t mean I have to make babies with any of them, but does give me a sense of what kind of ‘expression of interest’ makes me feel solid and genuinely appreciated, and is worth pursuing.
Sounds like an epiphany in the positive. I like your take. Great, obviously they work in both directions. Thanks for sharing!
From Magnolia:
“Took me a while, but then I realized: it’s because it seems like a fricking sea change in the entire natural order to believe that a guy like him might actually enjoy a woman like me, or even have a tiny crush. ”
Wow. This may as well have punched me in the face.
I’m fine with being single. I also knew, since I was a teenager believe it or not, that I’d never get married. While I wouldn’t mind getting married one day, I accepted a very long time ago that it may never happen. One of the reasons why is encapsulated in Magnolia’s quote: I can’t really imagine, outside of a few family members and maybe a few friends (even those aren’t guaranteed), that someone would love me for me – genuine & unconditional love in spite of my flaws and whatever else – for the rest of my life. And it’s kinda the same the other way around – could I love someone like that for life? I don’t know. It just seems unreal. Couples like Natalie & her partner seem like this mythical, elusive, almost-impossible-to-attain-&-maintain treasure.
I wasn’t able to put this into words, but seeing this part of Magnolia’s comment just put it into perspective. Wow. This is sobering & sad. I feel like I should cry, and hell, maybe I will. But at least I can practice getting over it, I guess.
Yay, spinster! Thanks for getting it. When trying to admit to yourself in your own head that someone likes you is like telling yourself you’ve sighted a unicorn and that you had the power to make the unicorn appear, there’s going to be resistance.
We create our own realities. And in my new reality (difficult as this is to type out) I am a desirable, make-a-man-laughable, fall-in-real-love-withable quantity (to a select few, as someone else wrote here).
For the moment, it feels like la-la land. But la-la-land (of darkness! and pain! evil wizards in AC guises!) was where I used to live, where love for Magnolia was an impossible thing.
Hi Spinster,
I’m fine with being single. I also knew, since I was a teenager believe it or not, that I’d never get married. While I wouldn’t mind getting married one day, I accepted a very long time ago that it may never happen.
Can totally relate to this, I have had the same thoughts since I was young too, but for me I am starting to understand why and mostly it is to do with not loving myself unconditionally and accepting me for me so if I can’t do it for me why should anyone else?
Could I love someone for life in a healthy way I don’t know either I’ve certainly tried my best at loving in very bad relationships where I don’t run away but in a good one I think deep down I’d be heading to the hills and fast.
All the bad relationships I have had have been a reflection of me not loving me sometimes I’m overwhelmed with thoughts of how could I have let myself be treated so badly that is when I allow myself a glimpse into that area.
I can also see what you saying about Nat’s relationship it does seem so foreign to be accepted and to accpet someone else for who they are with no games and hidden agendas. I tell myself that I’ve tried so many combinations of bad relationships how do I know I can’t be in a healthy relationship if I have never tried it? (though I have lots of work to do yet)
I wish you well,Spinster , I guess as long as we are happy single then we shouldn’t worry too much.
Thanks again Magnolia, and thanks Tulipa.
I had another light bulb moment today related to this because I’ve been thinking about Magnolia’s quote since yesterday: I think that “this mythical, elusive, almost-impossible-to-attain-&-maintain treasure” is this way because of rejection & invalidation throughout my whole life. Tulipa said “but for me I am starting to understand why and mostly it is to do with not loving myself unconditionally and accepting me for me so if I can’t do it for me why should anyone else?” and that sounds about right. Shit, if I was teased throughout childhood and adolescence, if I was invalidated & rejected by almost everyone throughout my life, why would I believe that some man would be any different?
Now let’s not get this confused. This isn’t to say that ALL men would never like me. What I’m saying is that it’s hard to imagine that a man would love me completely & genuinely – no strings attached, no fine print, no conditions – with all of my flaws and whatever else. I just can’t imagine it. And maybe it’s because of what I saw during my lightbulb moment – I don’t believe it because of my childhood & adolescent history (and actually, much of my adult life too).
So, going back to the main point of this blog entry, I guess this is why I (and we) have all of this angst over a damn telephone number. (I don’t clear out my schedule or anything ridiculous like that though. I’ve never been that far gone. :-|) It’s kinda unimaginable to think that someone might actually like me for me, for no reason at all.
Wow. Even more to think about. 😐
Thank you Natalie for this post. This what make you such a brilliant author, it feels as you are writing for just me. It’s is something all the great novelist have in my opinion. The novels may be written in the 1800’s but it as though they know you in 2011.
And thank you Adrienne, Fearless, Cavewoman, Used, Grace, SM, Natasha, Radiogirl, Jupiter23, and Magnolia for your responses regarding my questions as to Race Car Guy in the last post on Futility. Your comments and Natalie’s post “Slow Your Roll” helped me to see I don’t trust me or have the self-confidence in me or have the self-esteem to date yet. Magnolia, I’ve been in academia since I was 23. We need a committee to decide to visit the restroom. Seriously, while I didn’t build sandcastles or put our names together this time, stress over whether he would call or clear my schedule, I was conscious that my gut was saying “not so much” from the get go but my head reverted back to the old pattern of ignoring my gut which you all pointed out. That was my internal struggle. I wasn’t listening to me, not whether he called or didn’t call. I knew I wasn’t listening to me, AGAIN. I may finally be getting it. I get to determine if there are red flags and I don’t need a committee (although it sure is nice to have you all there). I get to determine if I’m annoyed. I was annoyed and I saw red flags.
Here’s something else that I didn’t realize: “If you’re not sure, go on a date – it’s just a date. If you don’t want to – that’s fine! No biggie – let it go.” Since I’ve only been married and then involved with MM’s, I’ve never dated. It’s just a date and I don’t have to marry him? That helps reduce the dynasty levels of drama and is a “squee” for me. I also realize as Natasha points out that I have my AC/EUM magnifying glass on and my FBG Threat Level is on full alert. The “line” ultimately lies with my self-esteem. Even though I can rationally understand what self-esteem may be, I may be actually understanding, feeling what it is. I get to decide what’s good for me. The right answer lies with me. That is a ton of responsibility, responsibility that I’ve pawned off onto others. “Whoever they are isn’t your last chance saloon.” He’s not that special, I’m not that desperate. I’m my last chance saloon. I’m that special. (Of course, I want to ask if you…
“I don’t need a committee (although it sure is nice to have you all there).”
I worried a bit about my post to you, runner, because the “committee” – the wonderful community – we have here at BR helps me out continually and I hoped you wouldn’t take it as “you should know the answer by now and not ask us.” And you didn’t take it that way – you got my drift – so that’s good.
There have been a few interactions I’ve had with males recently that nine months ago I would have brought straight to BR. I have felt such pleasure in realizing that what would have perplexed and made me anxious before, because it required a judgment call, now are almost non-issues, because I just make that judgment.
I do owe much of this change to BR. It feels like I imagine being promoted does: one day you find yourself making decisions that would have terrified you before. I am now making better executive decisions about my relationships, feel a lot less worried about the folks I don’t like or who don’t like me, like myself more, and actually expect some people to dig me because of who I am, not in spite of it. Big changes.
I think once we start to expect that people can like us FOR all our quirks, and passions, and that funny bump on our nose, etc, no other behaviour from a potential love interest makes sense than them clearly trying, respectfully, to learn our quirks, passions, boundaries, and dreams. And if they are compatible with me, they will be *trying* to be as upfront and clear about their interest as possible, as I aim to be clear and upfront (with myself and them!).
This criteria – that is, expecting that interested means *interested*: ie. they should seem to find me genuinely interesting, and I must find them actually interesting – helps me be more flexible about the how many calls, when to call, when to ask out, etc etc. Seven calls in a row in a week from a dude who never asks me a thing about my writing (which is my passion and profession), for example, would rank lower than two calls, or one date, in a week from a guy who wants to know all about who I am, what I do and why I do it.
Sometimes guys get numbers just to prove to themselves that they can. Sometimes guys who call dutifully still manage to forget to express any *real* interest in YOU.
Quality not quantity, ladies!
Runner, yes you ARE that special! Hearing you say that makes me so happy 🙂 I think we’ve all been where you are to one extent or another and the end result is learning to trust and value yourself. *Big Hugs*
p.s. “We need a committee to decide to visit the restroom.” made me laugh out loud!!
Hey Magnolia and Natasha,
Magnolia, I laughed out loud about the committee comment and I’m still laughing today. It really spoke to me. I got your drift so appreciated your thoughtful response(s) as well as the responses of the others. Like you, I am grateful for the wonderful community Natalie has established. Thank you Natasha, with BR, I’ve discovered I am that special.
It really is a judgment call that only I can make. You are spot on. Congratulations on your big changes. It sounds like you are making tremendous progress and trust yourself. (Congratulations on your dissertation abstract…that’s a big hurdle.) This brief encounter with race car guy was a big wake up call for me. Sometimes I read Natalie’s books/posts, the responses on the blog, and I undertand things analytically but it’s a different matter entirely when the ideas are applied, such as trusting myself, having self-esteem, and slowing my roll. My head and my gut were not in sync, triggering dynasty levels of drama. I like your comments about learning what it is he is interested in, the authentic, imperfect me or ? As well as learning whether I am interested the authentic, imperfect him or some prince charming I’ve conjured up in my head. That can only happen by going slowly.
ps. Natasha, we had to have a committee meeting to decide whether to close the college during one of our infamous fires. The flames were down the street, nobody could breathe, and we were sitting a meeting trying to figure out what to do.
Runner, that story is hilarious (since everyone got out safe!) – I once worked in an office where, because no one could agree on what kind of catering to order, an entire committee had to be created haha! Literally we sat around in a conference room debating in what cases it should be pizza and in what cases it should be sandwiches. Talk about “flip-flapping” 😉
Runner you are welcome. I know we dont need a committee but I do need to have contact with some people who ‘get it’. Thats why I come to this site. I have lots of single girlfriends with some bad ideas about dating, I get all the bad advice one needs from them, I need somewhere to go where people arent living in la la land. I need some accountability partners and you are all it.
Oh yes, this is embarrassingly familiar! It was an especially big problem in my younger years when I was painfully shy and withdrawn and NO ONE ever asked me out. When that first started to change, I would latch onto any expression of interest and have out futures planned out for the next 60 years before there was ever a date. I put up with some really crap behavior too, because I was so desperate that I was sure I would never get another man to be interested in me. Better not let this one go, even if he’s a jerk! 🙂
Once I realized that a small, select portion of the male population was interested in me from time to time, and barring that, I could actually ask men out myself *gasp!!* the craziness abated a little. I considered it a mark of how far I’d come self-esteem-wise, that I didn’t get too wrapped up in fantasy about guys who asked me out when I started dating again in my thirties.
whoa nat your like a mindreader
actually I haven’t been reading your blog for a while but it’s helped me tons this past few months . A few weeks ago I felt I was ready to start meeting or dating guys so I signed up for a dating site just to feel it out. Well I went on a date and hooked up with someone =I and had a few more interests.
But now im slowing down because I think it has all been kind of overwhelming and fast for me so I disabled my account and will wait it out a few more weeks or months. The old me would have been upset that, even though these guys showed interest , exchanged numbers , met up with me and I even was intimate with one ….. that if they didn’t call then I’d freak out.
But after reading your blog I learned that putting yourself out there isn’t bad , dating is a discovery phase where you find out about yourself and what you want and that it doesn’t have to always end in a relationship. I also realized it wasn’t that much of a big deal and even if nothing happens then it isn’t the end of the world it just means that person wasn’t the right match.
I felt that I have progressed from how I would use to react , though I may not have been lucky and found the perfect match I got to talk to a few guys that were interesting as well as make me more comfortable and less scared about dating. But for now I’m going to take it easy.
Thanks again nat!
This is where I feel some sympathy for men. You have a chat with a nice man at at party. He asks for your no. You don’t hear from him again. All of a sudden we morph him into a Lying, Future Faking, No Good AC.
Maybe he was just a bit drunk. Maybe he got made redundant. Maybe his ex has contacted him . Maybe he’s gone on holiday. Maybe he realised it would be a bad idea because he’s got a girlfriend! Maybe, in the cold light of day, he’s not as interested as he thought he was (face it, we’ve done the same). Maybe he’s decided he’s not ready for a relationship yet. It could be anything. He’s not OBLIGATED on the basis of a conversation to start “treating us like a princess” (whatever that means).
There are worse things than not calling. It’s much worse to get a call from a man who isn’t over the ex, who is dealing with a family crisis and isn’t fully emotionally available, who isn’t that interested but fancies some entertainment.
“There are worse things than not calling. It’s much worse to get a call from a man who isn’t over the ex, who is dealing with a family crisis and isn’t fully emotionally available, who isn’t that interested but fancies some entertainment.”
Amen Grace – personally, I wish my exes had never called!!
LOL Natasha. I wish my ex’s never called too.
Ditto, and perhaps I shouldnt have answered lol. xx
You got it!!!
Much rather be alone 🙂
I was much more disturbed and upset by these guys until I found a term for them: “mirage boys”
This post was spot on. It reminds me of the book “Its just a date” written by the same authors of He’s just not that into you. When I date someone I try and not get my hopes up too much because I’ve dated AC’s before.
The advice I try to follow is…
– Don’t ask for the other person’s number in return if they ask for yours first. If they are soooo into you, they can make the call, and if they don’t call, well, you don’t have their number and can’t call begging for their attention, and you know they weren’t worth worrying over anyway, and you have no choice but to move on.
– Get busy living your life so you’re not thinking only about them calling. If they don’t call, well, you have lots of other fun stuff going on. And if they do, great, you have some conversation topics if you meet up, and you won’t get too invested in this person if things do progress further (or don’t).
Countless times I have heard of people finding better relationship partners when they focused on their own lives instead of scavenging desperately for somebody to be with.
Good advice, I’ve even gone so far as deleting their number from my phone so I couldn’t contact a person.
Recently I had dated a guy for a month that was hot and cold towards me, it seemed I was always initiating the contact and setting up dates. I finally just took a step back and saw what I was doing and how I was pushing things with him. I took his number out of my phone and didn’t contact him. Three weeks of no contact and he initiated contact, acting as though we hadn’t talked for three weeks. According to him during those three weeks he was heavily depressed/medicated and his phone was shut off for two of those three weeks because his cellular company lost his payment. Whether its true or not, I’ve realized I really didn’t care and I didn’t like him as much as I thought I did anyway. And I was in fact, annoyed with the casual way he started speaking to me again.
In some ways I feel bad for being annoyed, maybe he does have depression, but just because he has that problem doesn’t mean that I have to deal with the way his mood would swing hot and cold regarding me. He is not the person for me, regardless of how attractive he is! lol I don’t need to “fix” him. He needs to fix himself.
@Chrissy -Thank you for sharing your story! Recently, I met a guy, we talked on the phone few times and one day he did not call… I started to panic and all questions started to pop into my head: “What I said to upset him etc. ” Then I told to myself: “Stop! I only know him for couple of weeks, it’s time to calm down”…He called me next day. I think we need to let it go and just take a step back as you said!
@Natalie, Thank you for your brilliant article, it’s always comes on time!!!
Wow – this is so me. I’m embarrassed to say that but that was me with the assclown. We met at work (a disaster in itself, in hindsight) and he would spend hours in my office talking. An expression of interest (and really I was just a good audience for his narcissistic crap). He made a promise to come help me renovate my house. He gave a specific day and said he’d call. I put myself through hell, putting my life completely on hold waiting for that call (which never came – a good warning sign there I chose to ignore).
All the drama now is just embarrassing and humbling. I needed to look at why I invested so much in someone, just because they paid the slightest attention to me. The relationship turned into a flaming car crash because both of us were in complete delusion – I was projecting all kinds of stuff onto him, ignoring warning signs and pretending to be fine with things when I wasn’t, he was a commitment phobic assclown narc who thought I “understood” him and how he wanted things and just went along playing his little future faking games to get his ego stroked. When it went down in flames, I was devastated, having created a fantasy in my head. He was confused because he thought I understood, despite sending mixed signals and refusing to talk about the relationship.
Now I see it, so clearly. I wish I could have then.
I’ve got a question, how long is dating as a discovery period supposed to last? At what point do you have a “are we on the same page” talk without freaking out a potential partner. Does anyone understand my confusion? Don’t get me wrong, I’ve made many mistakes in the past because I’VE NEVER had the talk and always just assumed the other person knew when the friendship moved from i like you to something serious. *Face plant in palm*
buffy
before sex
buffythebs_slayer ,
“I’ve got a question, how long is dating as a discovery period supposed to last? At what point do you have a “are we on the same page” talk without freaking out a potential partner.”
The answer is quite simple: a man reveals himself though his actions. Is he calling you everyday? Is he making plans to see you regularly? Is he behaving in a manner that shows that he wants something more serious? In other words has the guy indicated that he wants to be serious by asking you to be his girlfriend? If you want a commitment, do not sleep with him until you get one. If he starts bringing up the topic of sex, but hasn’t shown that he wants to be exclusive with you, tell him that although you find him extremely attractive (if you do), you prefer to be in an exclusive and committed relationship before taking things to a physical level.
If you have to wonder after say, a couple of months where the relationship is going (I’m not talking about marriage, but boyfriend/girlfriend), then you have your answer right there. The guy is just keeping his options open. In the meantime, you keep your options open by continuing to date others.
If you’ve already progressed to being in a relationship and you want to know if the guy is serious about a future, I would wait six months to a year before bringing up the question. When you do, you could say something along the lines of: “I really enjoy the times that we spend together and can see long term potential for this relationship. What do you think?” Make sure that you are not asking this question during sex though. As I’m sure you are well aware, men will say anything during the midst of passion 🙂
I’m trying not to laugh because my office mates are in front of me. I am SO guilty of the picturing! LMAO! But when I notice my thoughts running ahead of me, I force myself to stop it. That usually puts the brakes on my thoughts pretty fast.
Hey, at least I don’t start clearing my planner for a potential date that could or couldn’t happen. I’m not that ridiculous. 😐 But this DOES give me some extra food for thought because I know that I’m still struggling against negative thoughts about myself sometimes (or daily :-|), and it’s part of the reason why I’m alright with being single for a long time (if not for good).
Grace,
I know you’re right. I’m not over the MM (he’s been trying to get back in my life, telling me he made a mistake breaking it off and that he’s “trying to figure things out” now – blah) and my feelings for this guy are premature, but it freaks me out that I get this way. It’s exhausting analyzing everything I said or did and comparing it to his actions, making excuses for him when he’s inconsistent just because I find so much about him attractive (and don’t want to feel rejected again).
You also said how I don’t have a problem meeting guys and this one isn’t the last chance saloon, but I act like he is. I don’t have confidence in myself to meet someone else so I latch onto what I’ve got for fear he’s The One. I do like him, and I want this to go somewhere, but even I know (deep down, where the logical part of me is buried) that it has to go slowly, but I’m a planner and I like having things defined and in their place and laid out for me perfectly in order for me to feel comfortable (this goes for every aspect of my life, from the cleanliness of my apartment to my relationships). I wish dating were more transparent and I’d know what he’s thinking and feeling at all times so I don’t have to guess or play the waiting game or force myself not to initiate the “what are we” talk too soon.
My whole life I’ve expected a guy to swoop in and fix my life and make me better, and I always thought if I could just find a good man everything would improve, but it’s not that easy – I have to do the work on my own first, because feeling this anxious and insecure over a text message is insane.
Hi Bri, your ex MM said he is trying to figure things out? That means he still is figuring (unavailable) and once again asking you to be available and on hold, (an option) while he is still figuring and still married. Sounds like an invitation to the same old shite. He has lied to you and his wife continually in the past…but maybe he really means it when he says he wants you in his life (as an option still, of course). Same bullshit, different day…still a liar. What a load of crap. He sincerely wants you back as his back door option. Sorry if this comes across as harsh. You are better than him!
If you are still in contact with the ex MM, maybe getting involved with someone else wouldn’t be fair. Put yourself in new guy’s shoes. If you found out he was talking to his recent ex who is still married to someone else….what would you think? It would be a red flag. Slow your roll until you are ready to start something new as well as let go of the old. I have had similar feelings in dating as you, and it can be stressful. Take your time and take care of yourself.
Good Post Nat! However, I seem to have the opposite problem here. Men don’t ask for my number, instead they hand me a scrap of paper or a business card with their number. I wish I had that experience of a man asking for my number. They then say “Call me” or “Don’t be a stranger”. What’s up with that? Is this a new dating ritual? I had one guy, ask me to out this summer but never called to set anything up and then when I saw him again, he flirted and then said “Call me”.
Nat, any advice on this?
I’m not Nat, but for what it’s worth I think it’s just a lazy way of putting all the effort on to you. It’s like telling you ‘I’m interested in not making any effort; that’s how interested I am! – I want you to make the effort to gain my attention and this is a flavour of what’s to come if you do. I’ll just hand out numbers then sit about scratching my arse cos if I give my number out to enough women one of them will be daft enough to call me up without me having to extend myself one inch. Great’.
Pfft!
Thank Fearless,
So frustrating!! What I’m going to do next time is just say “No thanks, don’t bother” mid stream while the card is still in their paws cuz I deserve so much better like effort.
Hi Fearless,
Thanks!! What lazy SOBs they are. Next time this happens (which I really hope it doesn’t and I get a guy with a spine and who asks for my number), I am going to say “No thanks” mid stream while the card is their in their hands. Boy will they be surprised and me happy.
Isabella
I was thinking same – “err… no thanks”. Or “you having a laugh, or d’you just think a lot of yourself? (and no very much of me?)”
Yes, at very least we are all worth a guy who is interested enough to ask for our number and make the call! (If he won’t do that what is he going to do?)
Isabella,
I just say “no, you call me” and frequently they do!
Take the card, write your number on the back, and give it back to them, saying ‘call me’, and then run like hell.
Why not just stick to the facts? When they pull out their cars and say “call me”, say, “are you really doing that, pulling out your card and asking ME to call YOU, and at WORK [,no less]?”
You have to be nice–and serioud–and professional–about how you say this, of course.
This is stating facts, that THEY created, and it is businesslike/professional.
And, remember, they are giving you their BUSINESS card on a PERSONAL matter (a date). In doing what they are doing, they are downgrading things from the get-go. AND they get to have a good laugh at work, if they so desire, with their work buds!
They’ll be shocked, in awe , and/or in admiration.
This is so true, Fearless, and this lack of effort on his part was the very first of a number of red flags my last ex waved around from the start that I did not heed. A few hours after we had been re-introduced by a mutual friend (we’d been nodding acquaintances at a different club 15 years before, when he was still married) – my ex sent a text to our friend saying “has RadioGirl asked for my phone number yet?”. Twenty minutes later, he sent another which said “if RadioGirl asks for my phone number, you can give it to her”. My friend & I had a good laugh about this, and my initial reaction was to exclaim aloud “no way, not in a million years – what a jerk! Who the hell does he think he is??!!”. And yet, a few days later, I asked him to be my friend on FB (‘cos doing that was “ok” in my warped logic, when asking for his phone number and calling him was not – duh!). All this because my single-for-8-years-self-doubting side was ridiculously flattered to have some male admiration, even though my gut instincts were already shouting that really he wasn’t right/good enough for me. I have sometimes wondered since then if he would’ve bothered to get my number from our friend if I hadn’t “friended” him first on FB…? I think we all know the moral of this tale. In fact, I can think of several morals – not least the tortoise-and-the-hare-style one that says “slow down, there’s no fire!”. These days, I’m with the tortoise – slow but steady progress is best and if in doubt, leave it out.
I have a new policy if a guy gives me his phone number I lose it then no awkward conversation is needed and I know they are not interested in me and I have made huge errors in pursuing the guy who didn’t pursue me first. If we cross paths again and they ignore me I know I’ve dodged a bullet.
Has happened to me several times.. and everytime I look at their card they are trying to hand me and say “you can give it to me but I’m not going to call it” and chuckle. Then that usually gets them uppity for a discussion as to why.. as if I have to explain. They know very well why. Laaaaaazy.
Oh my, this sounds liken the angry train chorus of women on this one. I simply say, “you know what, I prefer to have a man call me”. They always take my number, and many call. I have has many say,”oh I wanted your number but women get uncomfortable when I ask”.
My freak outs happen after the date. Just had one date with someone who won,t be living in my city and was full on prepared to have me play girlfriend for three months. I am ashamed at the dramatic ending to our date. But then I realize despite delivery, expiration dates don,t work for me, and when I think of him because I liked him, I say…. Get out of your imaginary interaction of apologizing for you being you, and go find someone real. And flirt city with the world happens….
Me too, in younger years I could skyrocket straight to cloud nine over the fraction of a look and re-entering Earth’s atmosphere with a loud bang crashing to pieces. A lot of this trouble is caused by nature itself. Indeed, nature is our most powerful opponent until we reach our forties. Biology isn’t fooling around, not with its most fertile and under the guise of nameless longings that only erotic love seems able to fulfil nature trips us up. She does well in firing up our hormones, reactivating our infant heartbreaks, melting any sense of self we might have developed and is working hard on us to fulfil her purpose. Nature gives a shit if we are a match, she also doesn’t care about happiness.
Over the years I discovered this influence more and more on both sexes. I must admit that I greatly underestimated these forces. Keeping this in mind it is not only us being stupid and incompetent. It’s not easy to overcome our cavewoman instincts.
At the same time this is good news to all who are nearing forty and beyond because in the second part of life we have good chances of getting out of nature’s clutches, break free and start developing our real SELF. So, ladies, the real stuff, real love (not the romantic versions and illusions we are fed everywhere) might still lie ahead of us not behind. It’s not all over. As one reader put it: “Que sera, sera.”
It got me thinking when an author suggested instead of saying, claiming or craving a dozen romantic “I love you’s” to just fantasise for a moment to actually saying to someone
“I.YOU.”
And yeah, it gave me that interesting feeling of being aware of myself and someone else at the same moment.
I used to be like that when I was younger – from my teens to early 20s. Age often has its word! I remember that I was 15 and I had this crush on a guy I used to see on the hallway at college. We knew each other’s names, but we never went beyond “hello” and “how are you”, but the first time these things happened – celebration time! 😛 One day, my best friend told me (with a funeral look on her face, as if she was telling me that someone died), that the guy in question had a girlfriend (he was in his senior year, so older than us). Imagine I cried for the whole day!!! 😀 Now I saw that guy on Facebook, among the friends of a friend of mine – bald! I wouldn’t go for him nowadays! 😛
On the other hand, when you’re past your teens, I also think that many women get over-enthusiastic about someone they barely know when they feel like they don’t have many options (objectively or not). For example, in many cities, or even countries, the female population dominates over the male one. I experienced that in my home city! It’s like “Oooh, a guy I actually like and who’s not attached! Finally! Thank God! Yuppiiiiii!!!” Next stop: cloud nine. Things going wrong (i.e. him not contacting, not returning calls/messages, etc.) = “end of the world” feeling. Anyway, apart from the obvious “change of location” option, it’s good to try keeping a healthy balance between enthusiasm (after all, we want to feel alive) and objectivity. 🙂
Sandra, your teenage story has me giggling! Ahhh, the Good Old Days!
I totally agree with what you mention in your second paragraph. I’m in a situation where I just turned 30 (unfortunately some people think that’s still Spinster Time – oy.) and all of my friends are in relationships/engaged/married. I was out and about last weekend with my girlfriends and a very young looking guy started chatting me up. I asked him how old he was and he replied, “I’m 22, how old are you?” I said, “I just turned 30.” and he said, “No way! You look so young! I had no idea you were a cougar!” Oh. My. God. I think it’s highly possible that if I was less cynical towards men, I would totally be in the “Maybe he’s The One?!” boat 😉
Natasha, my dear virtual friend! 🙂 It looks like we are the same age too: I’m turning 30 next month, and people still think I’m in my early 20s. 😉 What’s good for me, though, is that here in Italy where I live, people get married later, rarely below 30. Some of them are in relationships, some of them are not, but they tend to be relaxed about it. So, generally there is no “society pressure”. Only from grandparents and elderly relatives, who would like to see you settled down. 😀 And BTW, my new flame is 23. When we met he thought I was 20. If you saw a picture of us, or saw us on the street without knowing us, you’d think we are the same age. And the funny thing is that the pet name he calls me by translates into something like “puppy”. It makes me feel like “the little one” between the 2 of us! 😛
Good for you girl!! He sounds awesome 🙂 I love the nickname! It’s certainly better than “cougar” haha! In the US this is not exactly a positive term, so I meant it more inthe sense of “If I met someone great who didn’t use the term ‘cougar’ I might get excitable as described in the post!” 😉 I love the European attitude towards settling down – I burst out laughing about the older relatives who are dying for it to happen, because the only one in my family that’s worried about it is my grandmother and, yes, she’s Italian!! *Big Hugs*
Well, sometimes I have my moments when I get over-enthusiastic about some “I can’t wait to see you again :-* ” message posted on my wall, or some hearts drawn in messages, or some soft voice on the phone. Ahh, those kids! 😛 But we have known each other for 7 months now. We started out as friends, and at the beginning I didn’t really consider him, mainly because of the age (although I felt kinda attracted to him), and also because he lives in a different city. But gradually I started to believe he is quite mature for his age, as he actually showed me on certain occasions that he is someone you can rely on in times of trouble. I started having stronger feelings for him about 3 months after meeting him. Although we are still in the “discovering phase”, so not in a proper relationship, trust and respect for each other as people have always been there. Many people are saying to me: “just enjoy his company, whether it’s gonna be long term or not, without worrying that it might end”. Should I, should I not…? 😉
As far as the “cougar” term is concerned, I also know a girl who is a couple of years younger than me, but still acts “cougar-ish”. She looks a bit older, and she is like a lady-vamp, who lures younger men in and then deceives them. She’s like the female version of my ex! Haha! 😛 So, I think that boy of yours was either kidding, either he’s really silly.
Big hugs to you too, and, as a friend of mine said… remember that 30 is the new 18! 😀
Sandra, if we can’t get a little goobly over a guy that we really like once and awhile…what’s the point?! I say go for it! One of my friends got married last year and she is 32 and her husband is 27 – they couldn’t be happier or better suited to eachother. You know what red flags look like and how to act on them, so be confident and enjoy!
p.s. I’m totally getting “30 is the new 18” t-shirts made. In bulk.
Sandra – the only thing I’d warn you about with early 20 somethings is that he still has his “quarter life crisis” to get through. And nowadays they’re a doozy! It seems to happen around 25ish and I remember my own.. when it suddenly occurred to me “THIS is all there is? This is life?” when you realize what you’ve been doing is what you’ll keep doing every day. So enjoy your guy but be practical because when it hits (assuming you’re still together), he’ll be second guessing everything – including your relationship!
Carrie, what I would rather worry about is another thing. Personally, I don’t believe in that “quarter life crisis” that much. I haven’t gone through what you say, and neither have my friends. On the contrary, I still felt at the beginning of the road, in the midst of experiences to be explored, without second-guessing anything. And even now, things are pretty much the same. BUT, what I would worry about at this very moment is: is he ready for a relationship *right now* or *in the near future*? I’m not sure. Yes, he is a good person and he wouldn’t hurt me on purpose, but what if sooner or later he’d want to “spread his wings”? And girls adore him: competition is fierce. 😛 Well, I guess that only time will tell what to expect from him… 😉
Im so glad I found this site. It seems to speak directly to me. Over the past couple of weeks I have found myself acting like Im twelve again. Ive known this guy for about six years. We were on a very friendly simple conversation basis. We lived in the same building then both moved out. We began working together on a project, from the first meeting together, sparks began to fly. We always sat super close, he asked alot of questions about me, we laughed joked etc. We worked together once per week and it became my favorite day of the week. When I left, I always on cloud nine. It was magnetic…I just knew eventually what was going to happen..in addition to meeting to work together on the weekends, we talked every day for hours. I mean two three hours a s day. ..morning..afternoon…evening…late night. Finally one weekend we became friends with benefits. We never talked about it..we simply continuedwith our normal routine.
About a month ago, things began to change. He was calling less. and when he did call, I would not answer right away. He became annoyed with me. If I asked him questions he was evasive. It became tense. He said I had changed and was acting weird…to make a long story short, he said he didnt want a relationship then listed all of the ten thousand reasons why…
Since then it hasnt been the same..we only discuss the project now. I have put alot of time and effort into our project, but its not comfortable now because he only wants to meet in public places as if Im going to be overcome with lust and attack him….I have been crying like a teenager and feeling extremely depressed. Im going to try to take the wonderful advice on this site but its hard..thanks for listening…
Dumbstruck,
I’m so sorry about your situation. It so reminds me of how the affair started with the ex MM. We were working on a project together too. I knew of him for over a decade before the big project. I remember when we’d meet in the beginning and I dreaded it because he simply didn’t know what he was doing. As things progressed, he began to listen to me and I began to think about what I would wear when we met. Bad sign! There were sparks and it was magnetic even when he didn’t know what he was doing.
“Finally one weekend we became friends with benefits. We never talked about it..we simply continued with our normal routine.” Yup, that’s how it started for me too. And that’s how it ended for me too with the added confusion regarding the fact he was married. Keep reading BR. Get Natalie’s new edition of Mr. U and the FBG. It has changed my life. There is light at the end of the tunnel, I think. And allow yourself to cry. Welcome to BR. Natalie has created such a wonderful safe healing harbor. Thank you Natalie and Happy BR B-DAY.
Hi Runner Girl,
Thank you for the warm welcome. Im already obsessed with this blog and I think I may have to make it my homepage, or make sure I keep it open on my blackberry in case of any relationship emergencies. I actually feel proud of myself because in terms of dating, I have learned to ease up and thats why these feelings for this guy have caught me off guard. We not only lived in the same building, he was actually the landlord. He always looked out for me..was willing to work with me when I was short on funds, if I needed anything he was always there. His wife passed away four years ago and he had to sell the house which is why we no longer live in the same building. I say all thiis to say that he is not just some random guy I had feelings for, this was a long time coming. The hardest part is letting those feelings go. Its even harder because we are working together on this project. So as soon as I hear his voice, Im thrown for a loop all over again. Im glad Natalie created this blog, its practical advice, now if I can follow it remains to be seen….
This post bring back (bad) memories
Had I used the hanging-by-the-phone time wisely, I would be able to play Liszt by now.
Freaking is indeed a sign that you are not ready.
What you think you don’t exist until someone notices you and you hang on to an external sign of validation for dear life? No thanks. Lets not go back to that. When you obsesses about a guy it means you are not the center of your own life. Feeling a little high because someone asked for your number should be like a little does vitamin C or a shot of B12 for THEM. You already know you are a prize. If they don’t follow through, it is their loss, not YOURS.
You have to be high-self-esteem maintenance to the point of being a bitch about it, and do what ever needs to be done that keep it at your above acceptable level. And by Bitch I don’t mean a preening (secretly insecure) queen on Louboutin who needs others as a reflection of her value, I mean a woman who keeps quiet when her ex-husband says in a paper that their marriage was boring, being quiet is unerving to male idiots, it freaks them out.
I have a friend who uses The Game rules, he asks out women as a mood pick me up when he feels a little down. I watched him ask a girl out in front of her mother and she approved !!!! He has 3 women on the go because he can’t handle a real woman and commitment, so these women are on rotation to serve his needs. What they feel doesn’t register.
Can you imagine George Clooney asking you out. You would feel like a queen.
And then you read the contract : looking your best at all times, Italy on a diet, no pasta after 12 pm, no chit-chat about commitment or where the relationship is going to and no life of your own.
After a while, you might say – why did I ever gave you my number? Or worse say, when reality clashes with your fantasy “ you are not who I thought you were”. And he will answer you ” I told you I was not the marrying kind from the start”.
Artemisia, I love your comment! One of my girlfriends was all distraught over the break-up of Leonardo DiCaprio and Blake Lively (I know, I know…but, it’s not like we spent a solid 15 minutes talking about it…never…no…not us) and I was like, “It was classic EUM. He had broken up with a long-time girlfriend that he jerked around for several years, then he takes up with her and his friends are yapping in US Weekly that, ‘He’s never felt this way about a girl! We’ve never seen him so into anyone!'” and a few months later it’s kaput.
I loved Jane Lynch gag at the Emmy about why she is a Lesbian – “here is the cast of Entourage”, which is really funny if you have seen the show a few times.
The gossip girl and Leo had a European summer romance in Europe arranged by his agent. It had to be the ”I need a girl for the summer ” thing, she was a sorbet between models, ( they serve sorbet in posh places to clean your palate, some men apply it between women).
Then again if I was 20 something and Leo asked me out, I would ignore his dating history, all the red-flags, and have a wonderful time in Italy. All that food and drink will help you silence those niggling thoughts that he is playing you.
I wonder if Gossip Girl has read the Valley of the Dolls.
One of my friends chats up women, despite the fact that he is in a relationship because he needs to check if he still attractive to the opposite sex. Now he says he can flirt with women more easily now that he is in a relationship as he is relaxed and secure that he has a woman at home who loves him. He gets their numbers and never calls them.
I usually scream at him, but he is the first to tell any woman who asks if the guy she is dating is having fun or he is being serious.
Oh, Artemisia, so true! One of my cousins lives in Israel and the rumour over there is that Leo’s been making sweet, commitment-phobic love to his ex, the Israeli supermodel. Whenever I hear people say “IT’S ME! I wasn’t pretty or successful enough.” (I’ve done it too!) I remind them that neither Gisele Bundchen or Bar Refaeli could get his ass to the altar. ‘Nuff said!
p.s. I decided to go to a therapist a few years ago and got there early one day. Luckily, I had a book with me. That book was Valley Of The Dolls. The other people in the waiting room must have been like, “OH GIRL.” 😉
Ah the hard life of an avoidant -attachment style millionaire modeliser !
I am quite familiar with the relationship the avoidant -attachment style bloke. Thank heaven for therapy, as now they I can smell their bull after a few breaths, and they no longer awake my anxiety.
When really fed up with their way of loving you and don’t seem to come back to them to them , they start to be obsessed with you and do everything to get you back. Once back, it takes them 1 minute start to feel engulfed by your mere presence. When they have you, instead of feeling secure, they panic and you feel anxious and you blame yourself – it must be me, I am needy and insecure, when it’s really them.
With me it was shame and guilt about my own mess that kept me attached to a series of men making me feel bad for being in love with people who could not offer true intimacy. I can’t say how enough how reading Stephen Carter & Julia Sokol saved my sanity, and this blog is brilliant.
I loved Valley Of the Dolls, cult classic and feminist before it’s time.
Artemisia – I love it. No pasta after 12pm? And me with my own pasta machine?
Well, George is just going to have to miss out, isn’t he.
I have to say – and Nat, this is kind of going out on a limb here, but it works for me – I sometimes let my mind go and DO the whole fast-forward 60 years thing with a guy I’ve just met.
I do it deliberately, and I stand by and watch it, and then I have an almighty laugh at myself. Then, just as deliberately, I fast-forward 60 years with any of the men I’ve had disasters with, and imagined how it would have been had we married. And then I come away, usually quite sobered.
So I’d suggest that if you CAN’T control your urge to fast-forward, at least use it in a productive and constructive way – follow the whole process through to the bitter end, to keep your feet firmly on the ground!
I think George makes them sign gagging contracts.
I remember a guy I went out with, long time ago, I got so high after he asked me out, he looked like prince charming, I floated for a while.
He turned out to be the most malignant-craven passive-aggressive man I had ever be out with. Talk of deflated. But I learned so much.
NO you are not the only one Natasha, definitely lol. I am under a lot of pressure from my parents to get married (I am only 25), but never my sister who has had a steady boyfriend for the last four years and my brother who has had the same girlfriend for 9 years.
Anyways, I find the phone number to mean nothing at this point. If he does not call within the first few days, I am pretty sure he is not interested. If he calls after that, I am not interested because he is only looking for one thing.
Samantha, you should tell your parents, “I’m 25 and therefor in absolutely no danger of drying up anytime soon!” Oy vey, PARENTS.
I totally agree with your take on calling. I don’t put a ton of stock in them taking my phone number either and I completely agree that if they “pop up” after not making the initial call in a reasonable amount of time…yup, it’s either “one thing” or “something else didn’t work out” haha! They snooze, they lose.
Isabella, my take is that the guys handing out their numbers are the lazy ones. They don’t want to put the effort into calling a woman, and would rather pass out their numbers, sit back, and see what kind of a response they get. I wouldn’t waste my time. That’s not to say that when you’re seeing someone you shouldn’t call him, but my experience has been that the guys who have handed me their numbers have not been worth my time. The guys who are interested don’t want to risk you not calling; they want to get your number so that they can be in touch.
A guy asking for your number is just that: a guy asking for your number. Really, doesn’t mean a damn thing until he calls, schedules a date, and then actually shows up for the date. That’s my experience, anyway.
So true Jordan so true.
Heres a question I have been pondering.. if a guy says he will call you Monday and doesn’t til Tuesday, should you mention it, or ignore it and mark it as a ‘red flag’ ? This has happened to me many a time before my epiphany, and the relationship has always gone the same way (badly). I have been tempted to say ‘ but what happened to yesterday/2 days ago’ but have always been afraid that they would mark you down as ‘needy’ / ‘bunny boiler’ or should I have mentioned it to show my ‘boundaries’ (that I sadly did not have at the time), any suggestions? I am not ready to date again yet but I will certainly be approaching the WHOLE dating thing very differently. If only I had found BR sooner !!((Trouble is in the UK we don’t seem to have the hang of this dating thing, (but thats another story)!!)
Sarah,
Is this before you have gone out?
Personally, if it happened more than twice-w/o an apology and legitimate reason- I would let him go. I need people I can depend on. But, that’s just me.
I don’t think I would say anything, as I don’t want to sound like a parent, and they should know better.
Sarah, just this year a guy did the exact same thing to me. The first time I didnt say anything and just chalked it up to him being busy. I went on a first date with him in which he arranged a specific time to call me the next day. He called 4 days later, I let it roll into vmail, he gave no excuse, I didnt return his call so he called in a panic the next day. I let it roll into vmail again and never returned his call. I had just finished with my last eum/ac and I just couldnt take the BS anymore.
Sarah C, I think a one day lapse is okay, especially if it’s before the date. Most people will say something like, “Sorry I didn’t call yesterday, blah blah happened.” Even if they don’t, I think it’s fine to still go on the date in the absence of any other amber/red flags. People do genuinely have things come up and if they are consistent and genuinely interested, you’ll know. Equally, if someone’s a boundary buster/just looking to pass time there will be other things going on other than phone issues. Hope this helps!
Unless its Denzel, I no longer get excited over a guy asking me for my number..some guys will call you right away just to make sure its your number. How awkward is that when you have given a fake number and the guy is dialing it right in front of you….LOL
The number exchange aint what it used to be because everyone is looking to connect on some sort of business level etc…Ive become very jaded. Im forty one and a single mother and at this point I dont think I will ever be asked out on an actual date again. Im usually approached by men whos underlying motive is to find a place to live or only want sex…
I think: don’t give a fake number, ever. Don’t be that dishonest.
If you have the urge to give a fake number, then that’s your heart telling you NOT TO GIVE A NUMBER AT ALL.
Follow that urge, but don’t lie – it’s too awful (especially if he can now check up on you!)
Love this. An expression of interest certainly doesn’t equal professing his love. In fact, some men work the game of odds when they are out: getting a handful of phone numbers knowing that at least one of them will be a winner. Sad, yet true.
Totally agree with Jordan. Very practical, level-headed and realistic. The only way to not immediately go into crazy “OMG is he the ONE?!?!” hand-wringing mode if you make contact with a guy is to remember to focus on yourself. At the end of the day, you are still you, with your life, friends, interests, values, etc. If the thought of being by yourself (which is different from being lonely – that happens to all of us!) is scary, or you get this feeling of or KNOW you don’t love yourself, then that is what you have to work on, not trying to be not be “OMG” crazy-like around meeting a guy. Bottom line: get yourself in order and the rest will follow.
Here’s a great example of another level-headed person: “I went to this party and I met this guy. We started talking immediately by ourselves, off in a corner. He asked if I was single and seemed pleased when I said I was. Whenever we split up to talk to other people, or to get drinks or whatever, he always kept his eye on me. It was really cool. I was all excited and fluttery with that “Oh my God, I think I just met someone!” feeling. He didn’t ask for my number, but we know lots of people in common, so I thought he was just playing it cool. He never called me! And you know what? Normally I would call our mutual friends and start fishing and trying to figure out what happened and maybe try to find another way to see him again. But instead, I’m just going to move on! Who cares what his deal is. He’s not asking me out, so why should I start obsessing over him? I’m just going to go out tonight and try to meet someone else.” from: (near the bottom)
When I was lonely and desperate, I’d freak out like that. Your advice is good.
Now I don’t expect anything and am busy enough to be indifferent.
I thought of it this way too, just as i have the right to change my mind about being interested and want that respected so does the man. Who knows why he didnt call you and really its not a big deal if your living your life. I used to fast forward, i had everything planned in my mind, so when they didnt call, i felt like i was dumped bc we were practically a couple before they called me, in my mind lol.
Natalie, I was wondering if you could move into my home in NYC, because Im really not comprehending this “no contact” thing…lol. As I mentioned before, my friend with benefits, has decided to drop the benefits and basically drop me as a friend. We only talk about the project which is me being his publicist.
He asks how I am doing just to be nice and to make sure Im still willing to work with him but its not the same as before. We used to talk for three hours at a time and only a small portion of the conversation was spent talking about work .I also know now that he must be seeing someone else and its killing me. He says he will call and sometimes he will other times he doesnt or if we are talking and he gets another call then I dont hear back from him before he would never interrupt our conversations not even to talk to his own brother …..Im really surprised at myself for letting this get to me the way it is…Im at my wits end…
This post (and all of your wonderful insight after) has really spoken to me. I accepted a date with a man for later this weekend, and feel that I don’t want to go!
He has done everything “right” so far, but my self esteem is getting in the way. He is ridiculously handsome, successful in his career, lives in a great area of town…..and interested in ME?
This is 100% MY PROBLEM. If I cancelled the date, it would be because I didn’t feel “worthy”. I’m worried about my clothes! I’m worried about my car! Sweet Moses, I need to calm down.
Thanks, Girls! I’ve been lurking for 5 months now, and love the community here!
Amy
ETA: It just occurred to me my poor self esteem was what led me to assclowns to whom I felt “superior” and not INFERIOR like I do right now. EPIPHANY! 🙂