Sometimes we can be so afraid of replicating a past relationship that we bring that relationship into our present one instead of being conscious, aware and present so that we can acknowledge the differences, including our personal growth, and actually enjoy the relationship for whatever it is. We forget that we’re not that woman/man/person anymore. We forget that the only reason for us to fear that we are in a repeater version of a past relationship is if we have entered this new involvement with the same thinking, baggage and behaviour that we entered a prior involvement with.
If we have gone into a relationship with the same viewpoints that contributed to problems before then our concerns are valid, although manageable, if we take responsibility for our choices now instead of blindly continuing with the pattern. We can ‘wake up’. However, we do ourselves a disservice when we spend too much time thinking about who we were ‘back then’ instead of what we’ve learned since then and applying it.
When we don’t have the reassurance that comes with having a fairly good grasp on who we are and our values, fear of uncertainty will dictate. We lack the self-knowledge and self-awareness that would mean us being sure of ourselves. Because we are looking for the world or whoever’s around us to tell us who we are or to tell us we are OK, we end up being unsure of who we are and only feel temporarily okay after reassurance because we don’t have our own back. We get caught up in the cycle of measuring and estimating ourselves against what we think that person wants us to be or what we think the dating pool or society wants.
As a result, we’re going to struggle to opt out of a situation that isn’t working for us or struggle to trust a situation that is working for us because we lack self-trust. Maybe we’re super scared of making a mistake and ‘getting it wrong’.
We treat a decision or situation as if it’s our one shot. It feels as if the stakes are high.
Are you in the betting shop gambling whatever money you have on a horse you’re hoping your “good feeling about this” pays off, all while knowing that if the horse doesn’t win you’ll go bust and you won’t have your rent/mortgage or be able to pay off your debts or support yourself?
If the gambling scenario is where you’re at with dating, I don’t blame you for feeling anxious.
Imagine being in that betting shop. You’d be clutching your slip, your guts would be at you (unless you’re one of those gamblers that believes it right up until they lose) and you’d be so tense and afraid that you probably wouldn’t be breathing properly. A horse race lasts for a few minutes, but imagine feeling like that over a period of weeks or months? It would be agony!
I’m the type of person who, if I were feeling like that, I’d have bubble guts with the stress of it all. Never mind the toll it would take on my mental, emotional, and overall physical health. Imagine leaving the house every day poised for somebody to mug you? You’d veer between scared and defensive and spending 100% of your time braced for something that isn’t happening.
Even if in that very moment we are enjoying ourselves, we turn down the temperature on those feelings by worrying that even if we are not afraid right now that one day we might be. We worry we might not like how that will feel. Or we worry we might not be able to handle it. Or we subconsciously decide we’d rather be happy now but potentially disappointed at some point further down the line. We won’t allow us to be ‘too happy’ and relax so that it hurts less in the long run. We’re afraid to be vulnerable in case we get so happy that if someone disappointed us, we wouldn’t be able to handle it (based on our current predictions and perceptions).
We remember how awful it felt before. Rather than risk vulnerability and enjoying ourselves now and checking in regularly with ourselves so that we can be conscious, aware and present, we subconsciously turn down the heat so that were in a familiar zone of anxiety. That zone is where we feel more certain.
When we meet somebody we like, the only way we’re going to truly enjoy it is if we date as ourselves with our self-esteem in tow and we relax.
The trouble with what basically amounts to being afraid of being afraid is that we direct the wrong energy not just that at this person and the relationship, but inwardly as well. We become so afraid of things going wrong and so fixated on when and if this relationship is going to be The One that it affects our mindset, attitude, and general habits in the interaction.
We don’t realise that we’re holding our breath and how tense we are. We’re poised, waiting for the other shoe to drop.
We’re waiting for things to go wrong and, as a result, we are whipping ourselves up into anxiety.
When these feelings come up and we recognise what’s going on and we then ground ourselves by getting into the present and acknowledging positive, real evidence, we can calm ourselves. We can continue exploring and deepening the connection with that person. But if we don’t do these things and instead feed our thoughts and feelings with lots of negative self-talk and forecasting of doom, we subconsciously close off to protect ourselves from being truly vulnerable.
It’s natural to desire for things to progress when we like the person. However, things go awry when we mistake anxiety about whether we are going to be ‘chosen’ as well as anxiety about whether this person is laying in wait to screw us over for a healthy desire for that person and the relationship.
If you’re feeling anxious in a new or developing relationship, get grounded by anchoring you in your sense of self. If you don’t know yourself, that is your number one priority over getting to know somebody else.
Keep a Feelings Diary. Journal so you have a means of tracking not just your feelings but also the patterns around them. You cannot have any command over changing and calming how you feel if you don’t increase your awareness of the cues and triggers for your anxiety.
Maintain your own life and don’t spend every waking hour thinking about this person and trying to predict the future or worrying about the past. This anxiety-driven activity causes you to detach from your core self and the other things that matter in your life.
Take your time so that you can remain grounded.
No Future Faking (by you or them). Remember that you are your own boss. You mustn’t be passive and let somebody take you over and sweep you up.
Show up and step up in your relationship.
Of course, if you hold back and decide that they must do all of the contacting, ‘chasing’ etc, then yeah, they (even if it’s not what they want to do), by omission of your active response, set the pace and temperature of your relationship. If you show up as an equal stakeholder, you ‘meet’ them instead of looking for them to direct you.
If you still have anger, resentment, sadness or anything else lingering from a past relationship or trauma that is influencing your anxiety, as you’re already dating or in this relationship, you have an extra duty of care to be mindful and to take ongoing care of these issues so that they don’t take over you or the relationship.
Take care of you.
Your thoughts?
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I may be afraid about moving forward with a new relationship and those fears are warranted. I am not terrified of being alone. I have been doing fine all by myself. My desire is to have a new relationship. You can travel beautiful places like Paris alone but the truth is it would be nice to have someone you are with to join you. I am really not resentful. I would just like someone special.
NML said:
If you still have anger, resentment, sadness or anything else lingering from a past relationship or trauma that is influencing your anxiety, as you’re already dating or in this relationship, you have an extra duty of care to be mindful and to take ongoing care of these issues so that they don’t take over you or the relationship.
I don’t want any sadness I feel to carry over into anything new. This is why I have taken time to heal and not start anything new.
NML said:
Due to that lack of self assurance and self-reliance, it means that we are not confident in trusting our gut, intuition and values on what does and doesn’t feel good and right for us.
No, I trust my gut. It is my intuition that I followed to pull myself out of what would have been a horrible mistake-marrying a liar who would have just continued to cheat. So, logically I have every reason to trust myself. I will only be able to validate this when I enter a new relationship. I will discover if I carry any major baggage into it that causes that relationship to be destroyed. I know I have learned some things and I can screen who I allow in my life. The bottom line is you cant control what other people do. If someone is a liar you just have to pull away like I did. Wedding venue selected and paid for, dress custom fit and invitations ready to be mailed- the plug had to be pulled.
I still TRUST ME.
MJ,
Sounds like you’re doing it right!
I think about what in afraid of, and I guess it’s just that ultimately I can put in 100+% trying to find the right person, and it will never happen. Fear that a person who would genuinely love me does not exist. That I’ll always be that stopgap, transitional, almost but not quite, generic warm body because there is ALWAYS someone better. I don’t think I could hurt anymore than I have and I’m afraid of that feeling becoming settled in and permanent.
I’m not afraid of life in general. And regarding aloneness, I’ve faced parent death, divorce, kids moving away, job change. And now being crushed to the ground. So I guess maybe I’m just afraid that no matter WHAT, I am destined to be alone forever.
As I read this post, and maybe this is wrong thinking, I felt like so much applied to HIS decision. Because he told me ‘the stakes are high’ but I stil don’t know what that meant. Like he didn’t want to ‘risk it’ on me? I don’t think I’m a risk.
Hi Say Something,
I don’t really know if I am doing it right. The loneliness is the toughest part. I am just trying like you to move past all the damage that was done. I don’t want to be alone forever. I would like a relationship. I could spend time getting to know someone again and they could CHEAT. But I can’t just hide away in my house forever and become a recluse.
There wasn’t one RED flag with him. He didn’t ever say anything that even hinted that he was not ready to get married. No clue he was miserable with me. Not one argument. Just doing the sweetest things. The night I found out it was like someone drove me in my car at 100 miles an hour into a brick wall. The shock just hit me to the point I felt like I couldn’t breathe. Logically, I can assume it was going on for awhile behind my back. It was with someone who was ok with crumbs. Someone willing to meet a man late at night at a hotel for a romp. We spent weekends together. We did at least two or more date nights during the week. We even worked together during the week. We had separate companies but had the flexibility to do this. So, when someone wants to cheat they will find time to do it.
I will never understand why he kept smiling in my face instead of telling me he wasn’t happy. If I knew he was unhappy I would have walked away and he would have never heard from me. No he decided to knife me in my chest while smiling. He was the one picking up Bridal magazines for me. DAMN. I hate how he played this game.
I am not putting effort into meeting anyone right now. I don’t think I m really ready. I want to make sure my confidence is in tact. How long can I survive being this lonely? I am trying to make new friends. I am getting stood up for lunch dates by women I am trying to befriend.
When I read your posts I feel your pain. You are not going to be left alone. Why would you be a risk? He dated you for six months. People just cant be honest. That is just BS he was spouting. I think he was lying to you and he just came up with that nonsense. Don’t let that bother you. I am glad now I never gave that ass a chance to talk. He would have said something hurtful like this and I would be playing it back in my head.
Like you I have weathered some difficult storms and have been fine. This is the ONE thing that is attempting to take me out. Almost render me Hopeless. How do we explain this? Yet another reason I connect with you. You have been the only person who can relate to this.
Some days I am just exhausted. I read the stories on BR about women wanting relationships- I hear about AC after AC and I just shake my head. Can I really do this? I wonder if it is possible to find someone of substance. Oh and my cousin recently told me that some men will write me off instantly. Why? I make great money, have my own business and I am highly educated. She told me to never mention I have a terminal degree. There can only be one general in the yard. Men don’t want a woman who overshadows them. What? Yes I need to dummy down what I do or I will send men running for the hills. She is happily married.
I don’t agree with down playing what I do or hiding my level of education. I have worked hard. But I know that educated women do have a tougher time meeting people. At least this is true where I live.
I just wish I could black this period of my life out. It would erase the pain that I feel.
MJ
Hi MJ,
Wow. Totally relating. I have been told that I can be intimidating and off-putting and yes, that men often prefer a “lesser-than” partner. There is a BGE theory from a friend that I had “too much good and normal” and wasn’t needy and dysfunctional enough, and that’s what he’s used to. In his final text, he told me he was dating ‘low key’ so my friend calls her ‘low key girl’. I have an advanced degree, he has a 4 yr, but in this case, education was not the issue. BUT it can be for others, that and being self-sufficient. I am thinking of Michelle’s post, and how she tried to small herself down.
I don’t want to dumb down, offer up sex, flirt more, wear more makeup, wear heels (your style, not mine!), act helpless, keep my opinions to myself, not have opinions, NOT BE ME. I’m not am activist, or obnoxious, or a loudmouth. But I have my own mind and I won’t pretend not to. I never went against my core values and thought we aligned, but I DID supress my needs, not wanting to appear needy or demanding.
My last therapy session explored the realization that I have gone through life with unmet (emotional) needs. Major theme, and I finally thought I’d found the person that “gets” me. Not just a surface or transactional relationship. But like I said earlier, good and wonderful doesn’t just quit.
Your ass-face played along. BGE played along too, but we never got to that level of commitment. I guess we never got to any level. But he was always smiling and agreeable, because I was thoughtful enough to ask his opinions and preferences. And he made me laugh and feel comfortable. And I miss that.
You’re right, that someone else settled for crumbs in a HOtel. He didn’t respect her either. No crumbs for us, just fresh ingredients. And I will totally have lunch with you when we figure out this NML US visit! Keep hula hooping 🙂
Say Something,
You are just the sweetest (virtual) girl I know. Smile. Here is big HUG for you. We are going to be fine. I am for sure we would get along if we met.
Now, for clarification for the readers (LOL). SS only means I LOVE heals. I don’t do any of the other stuff to catch a man-like offer up sex (haven’t had any of that-too busy analyzing how the liar fooled me). He always tried to get me to wear makeup. He said I looked great without it but it would only enhance my features. Now, I sit and look at YouTube so that I can try to do a smokey eye and learn other little make up tricks. I never cake on the make up. Maybe that is why he left- I wasn’t wearing enuff Bobbi Brown make-up. I m more of a lip gloss keep it kind of natural girl. What you see is what you get. I do LOVE heels.
I am astonished at how make-up transforms these YouTube makeup mavens. It is frightening when they show up on screen with no makeup (night and day difference-WOW).
I confirmed today that I am stressed OUT. To the MAX. Went to the spa and I was grumpy. I ask someone why are these young girls here at the spa and not at school. She said (hey lady-earth to MJ) they are on summer break. WTF. Hello lady it is summer time. Go have some fun. The entire world knows it is summer time. But not me. I need a glass of Kir Royale or something.
I will NEVER get why ass face checked out. Cheated. I just had to get rid of him. I have read too many horror stories on BR about what happens when an AC is invited back to do more damage (Full stop as Oona says). This is when I breathe a sigh of relief. I did the right thing. There really was nothing to discuss. I called him a POS and sent him on his merry way. For anyone who wants information about sending and AC away for good-I went ballistic on him. Told him what a lying piece of crap he was. It took a little under two minutes and we have never spoken again. I admit that I have a lethal tongue if you crap on me. I had no tolerance for BS before coming to BR.
I was hurt when I found BR. I think I did a Google search on dealing with a liar and cheat. I don’t really remember how I found this page but this is helpful to me. It soothes my soul.
Say thank you for being here for me. NML thank you for this safe place to vent. This has been therapy for me.
@Freedme I love your spirit as you recover from the AC who left. Thank you for understanding my pain. I giggled just reading that you wanted to ring ass face’s neck like a chicken. I support that. Yes I love Anthony Robbins.
MJ
Blah,
So it’s Friday night and I will be staying home alone again. I’m not AFRAID and I am home alone days and overnight by myself quite often. Years ago, family of six. Now quite often me alone. My comment below (Sofia) of ‘nothing’ was in reference to relationships. I guess sometimes too much aloneness feels like NOTHING.
Nightmares… That’s fear that we can’t control. Last night in my dream I entered his house, but in the dream it was more like an apartment that was in the same hallway as my daugher’s apt. I entered alone and wondered if he even lived there anymore. My subconscious is torturing me because during the last weekend discard, he told me that things with us would be different if I lived closer, like (insert town near him where my daughter lives). Because I am too far. And now I don’t like going to visit her because I can only think of those words and it’s so close to him. I’ve done it only twice now. I also go weeks without turning my tv on. Weeks because when I reminded him of the shows we watched together at night, his response was that he barely sits and doesn’t really watch tv. And somehow I’ve let these comments torture me. So messed up, I realize this. It DOES feel like I have that if I watch tv, I am confirming that ‘yep, look how incompatible you are for me’. Ok, I know this is crazy talk and I can totally turn my tv on and it means nothing. But it’s also causing me anxiety and I don’t know why since it’s crazy/ irrational. And WHY did he have to name that town where my daughter lives? I’d just gone to her college graduation in this same town Saturday AM, returning to his house early afternoon that same day. He KNEW I had that connection near him and reason to be close by. Sunday she stopped to visit us and I gave her a tour of his house and we all talked about summer bonfires at his house. Then in a few hours I all of a sudden lived too far away. But if I lived where my daughter did, oh, it would be different. I hate feeling so messed up by his jerky words. I don’t even understand the fear (anxiety?) I now feel.
This week I had a huge, major bomb dropped on me at work. Huge and out of my control, but it will negatively impact me immensely. BUT I am not taking it personally, and I am handling it the best I can. So I know I have most of my mind intact because I am not freaking out and I’m seeking short and long-term solutions to help myself.
I believe I learned that self-esteem cam fluctuate
in different settings. I can function normally EXCEPT I still feel like I’m taking a BGE-beating over a year later. I can physically feel the prescence of the relationship fallout dwelling within. Why am I ‘afraid’ to turn on my tv like it’s forbidden?
MJ,
OMG, DO NOT listen to your cousin…she is projecting her own beliefs or fears. What a cliche, although often true, you do not want to submit yourself to that. You cannot-if you want to be happy!! Maybe your cousin has dimmed her lights (Nat did a great post on that!) so she feels secure and not a threat to her husband. Can you imagine how miserable you would feel with all those capabilities and talents you have?? So, no, sorry, only highly insecure people say stuff like that. My friends would not do that…how is that helpful??
Be patient.Be patient. Be patient.
Do your thing and you will meet people and the rest is up to the Universe! Uncomplicate your thinking, that is what helped me the most…
I believe it is rare, but
it is possible to meet a man that is respectful, kind, caring and loving. I did and the most amazing feeling is, when you discover that someone actually cares about what you say, think, feel. But it takes time to find out and after 5 month of consistency I am cautiously optimistic but it is still so early.
The main thing is to be brutally honest and yourself. On our second date I told him that I don’t do “casual” in basically anything in my life including relationships. I haven’t been that upfront with anybody that early but usually the guys would get defensive. He instead, looked me in the eye and said with sincerity: “I am glad you told me that and I am glad we had this conversation”. The parameter was set and he respected it because he is a person who behaves respectfully.
So try to see the light in your experience. I had shitty experience for years, AC’s, alcoholics, narcotics…all in and while I am glad I am on a different path, it is my life and my experience and it brought me down to my knees and I finally admitted that I don’t know anything about myself I slowly started to feel better and my relationships and life improved- again not so much visible from the outside but I felt so differently!
I really did not wanted to make this about me, but I did just to “prove” you, that you can have a different experience. Be patient. Do your thing.
Hugs
Unfolding,
What you have said makes good sense. I have no plans to downgrade. Some people have even suggested I not go for the good looking kind. I will ONLY date someone I am attracted to. I can only be authentic anything else is against my values. Someone wanted to send me on a blind date. She said it is not about looks-remember. Why would I date someone I am not attracted to? I declined that date.
I refuse to be superficial to get a MAN. I would be miserable. And I would rather be alone then with someone I have to downgrade for. I will be patient.
The light in my experience is that I did not walk down the aisle with a liar and a cheat. If I think my life sucks now. Boy I would have been one miserable SOUL to have a cheating husband. I can imagine being married to him and he is banging HOtel chicks. He has nothing but time on his hands. So, I could never really keep tabs on him.
I have some more beautiful places to travel to this Summer. I will make the most of it. I hope that everything works out for you. Wishing you more happiness.
MJ
MJ,
thank you for your sweet response! I also think you dodged a major bullet there and I hope that if you sincerely feel that way, you will feel better soon. We have to go through the motion…I still do it, because certain situations with the last (and worst AC) pop up and I realize how much anger I have towards him and after feeling that it then turns to sadness and then I deal with that, sometimes I only write about it, sometimes I have a good cry, sometimes I talk to a trusted friend. This is all part of processing some major personal tragedy. But what really really matters is that you were not afraid to call him on the truth and that you wised up and put a stop to it. How empowering! It is sad but it shows that you are in charge…I kept telling myself that growing can take you to a lonely place, but like everything it is temporary. Trust the process, we all have to, in the smaller and bigger perspective…I also went through a phase where I felt I did not have enough friends or they did not have enough time for me. I can really relate to what you wrote, but then I found a new hobby and got really involved and while no new deeper relationships (romantic or otherwise) came out of it (I wasn’t striving for it, we were all combined through that activity), I met some very nice people and it helped me to get through a phase in my life.
The man I am dating right now was a set up from an acquaintance, but I trusted her when she said, that you will have a good time, even if it is just for one evening- there were no expectations so to speak. I know that some people would see those circumstances as a waste of time, but if you are open, you are open and I try not to exclude people when it is not warranted…I was able to look him up on the internet and it actually made me nervous as I had a crush on him, solely on his pictures. So, really you never know, but I also know we need to protect ourselves!
I really think you are doing the absolute best under the circumstances, go and travel and whenever I did it, and was annoyed with my single status, for every “happy” couple you see, you see at least one “unhappy” couple (the ones who don’t talk, the ones who hiss at each other…or even openly fight, the sad faces) Just keep observing everything! And then you wonder what might be going on behind closed doors. NO. Thank you. Not for me.
I am either going to be happy with someone or happy by myself, that is my pledge 🙂
Unfolding,
Again, I so appreciate your post. Like you said I am doing the absolute best I can under circumstances. You are correct. Thank you for respecting what I feel. I was with someone I loved and trusted for years. He was like family and we both knew each others families. Only a monster could erase all the feelings in a short period of time and act as though the emotions and the time invested meant ZERO.
You said:
I also think you dodged a major bullet there and I hope that if you sincerely feel that way that way, you will feel better soon.
I sincerely KNOW that I dodged a bullet for the following reasons:
(1) I avoided marrying someone who was a hidden liar and cheat (almost worthy of an Academy award). I was treated like royalty by this man everyday. NO RED FLAGS. NO CRUMBS. If I had married him and he cheated a week into our marriage I would have DIVORCED him. No questions ask. That type of behavior is grounds for divorce.
(2) Being married the emotionally baggage would have been devastating and twice as bad as what I feel now. I am sure.
(3) He would have been in a position to access and take more from me financially. Financial ruin after years of hard work and major sacrifice (MAJOR dollars lost when the engagement was called off).
(4) He was a MONSTER in disguise. He was able to maintain what we had by day with me and was out after hours at a HOtel humping someone. No real emotional ties on his part.
(5) He could have ruined my health, but thankfully I walked away with just a broken heart.
He attempted to save our relationship by lying about where he was. I shut that conversation down QUICK. You get one shot at xucking me over. I trusted my gut that night and ended it. I WALKED. Put an end to any more BS. I am not the type of girl that allows a man to knowingly lie and goes back in for a second dose. Nope. I cut the snakes head off and deal with the pain. I don’t need to see if he can change or if it was a one time screw up. Once will do.
Yes there is gold and value in walking away, but the healing as I now know is not overnight. PAINFUL. There was a major emotional investment and major TIME spent with him. The emotional pain that I am able to express on BR does not mean I want him back or have any regrets. I KNOW I did the right thing.
When you can no longer TRUST someone anything you had is DEAD. I could never be friends with him or gain anything from having him in my life. Healing takes time.
This has changed ME. I no longer believe in that LA LA LAND LOVE. No, this does not mean I was silly or can be blamed for his behavior. I was loyal and I loved him. I will no longer write out blank checks of TRUST based on emotion (even though I did my due diligence in this case). You cant control other peoples choices to lie and cheat. I want become a PI, but more things have to verified now before I invest my TIME and become emotionally hooked. I will do even more to protect my heart like a precious piece of gold. When I am in a position to consider marriage again I will also protect my financial assets (no LA LA for me) because I am the only one who did the work to earn this lifestyle that I have now.
I thank him (and I am not being facetious) for one of the most valuable (and painful) lessons I have had since I have been on earth. Don’t mistake my PAIN for weakness. Because if you could see how I functioned in my professional/personal world before this you would never formulate that opinion.
As Say Something often says this is just the worst experience in terms of recovery. That is one of the many reasons why we connect and relate to each other. We share a similar feeling about recovery.
@Sofia you are right when the respect is gone the feelings start to dissolve. I was really in love with him, but I no longer have an ounce of respect for him. I hope I never see him. I would only walk by him and not say a word.
You get one shot to screw me over.
I am healing now Time really does heal all wounds. I use to hate hearing that (too early to digest it) now I know it is true.
MJ
MJ,
I hear strength and power, not fear, which acknowledges the fact that you’ve always had that in you. I think going through intense emotional pain, and recovering from it, sidelines those qualities. We’re off-balance, traumatized, and feeling like we’ve never felt.
What is happening? (shock)
This CAN’T be happening! (denial)
It doesn’t make sense! (confusion)
Trauma cocktail, and we didn’t even know it was on the menu. It’s not what we ordered, it’s not what we expected, and it’s a debilitating poison. But not forever.
Did you read the book ‘Men Who Can’t Love’? I know I suggested it. The behaviors described align with much in Mr. Unavailable. Still doesn’t “justify” shitty behavior.
Got in a decent workout in the heat and I think I’m going to clean and declutter my house more today. That’s what I CAN focus on. Also forced myself to watch 2 hrs of tv last night- 48 hours. Can’t remember the last time I did that.
MJ
One should NEVER dim ones light for anyone!! Yep, women that’ve accomplished a lot, put in serious effort, can be on a very lonely path. Most men do want someone “less than”. I think about ACs conquests (the ones I know about); all were less accomplished, less educated whereas I was his equal in many ways (except for how I treat folks). The saddest thing I read recently on another blog was a woman who’d only state she liked watching sports and drinking beer because that’s what men in her area (Texas) like. Imagine what calibre of man she got with that. In that same vein, there’s no real way to force oneself to be attracted to someone that you’re not. Yep, men often do this, just to have sex; most of us women cannot physically respond to men when there’s no attraction. That woman who wanted to set you up with a blind date was doing both of you a disservice. Dunno what your age is, but older chix such as myself are always told to settle for overweight/smoker/alcoholic/unhealthy lifestyle men. Settling for those forms of unattractiveness has serious and long term consequences for you because it is the healthy partner that winds up doing all the caretaking/heavy lifting/nursemaiding and its you that winds up compromising your values and lifestyle. Went thru this for 18 years with my dad; will never, ever do this for anyone, again. Never settle and let your light shine!
Settling for ‘less than’ will never happen with me. And yes, the older I get, the more ‘helpful advice’ I receive is basically:
Be happy alone. You don’t need anyone. (I DO want someone, but only the real deal)
Settle for less than (as Noquay described above and I could NEVER)
Stop looking. He’s right around the corner. (How many YEARS does it take to get to right corner?)
I realize I want peace, happiness, love in my life. And until BGE I never felt like I finally achieved all that I really wanted. And I dint mean as soon as I met him. I didn’t even know I could feel THAT GOOD. I think it was actually finally feeling comfort and Joy. But it wasn’t real.
There is stress involved in career change, job search, resumes, LOI, interviews, even major paradigm shifts within a current situation.
There is stress in moving, house hunting.
Stress in dealing with death and divorce and accepting the finality and reality.
Big stressful, fearful sometimes, life changes. But I think when it’s so personal, that’s where I JUST CAN’T compromise. And I know how excruciatingly difficult finding a compatible partner is. Not just a fling or casual relationship. Apparently this frame of mind is completely different for most men, otherwise they couldn’t sabotage and not look back.
I guess for me it feels like I DID hit my breaking point. If I ever DO meet someone else and ever have what I think is a great, mutual relationship, would I be able to handle the fact that, at any random moment, even years later, he could actually be just a cheating, lying player? Could I just say ‘Ehh, k bye’ and start over? I don’t know. I am off the relationship grid for now.
Say Something,
I SO RELATE TO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING!! I just laughed so hard about how long does it take for them to get around the corner. LMAO. I will take a big LAUGH anyway I can get it served up.
I didn’t laugh about what you said about investing years only to have someone act an ASS. This is my story. I was reading the front page of my FAVE newspaper (THE NEW YORK TIMES). OMG. The Bill Cosby story. It clearly outlines efforts he took to hide his dirt from his wife. Diabolical. Can you imagine the married life I would have had with a liar and cheat (man out getting ass late at night)? That couple has been together about 50 years. He didn’t want his wife to know that he was playing sexual games. He sent women money and hid it from his wife. OMG. I would never want to live this way.
I don’t need a man in my life. I want a man in my life. I don’t need girlfriends in my life to survive. I want to build some great friendships. If I never had either I wouldn’t stop breathing, but it might impact my health (this is what the medical community reports).
For now I m off the grid. I have some things to do before going down this road again. Like you I was on cloud 9 with my ex fiancé. We had some great times together. I want that again (but loyalty is a must) and I am not going to make any apologies for what I want in my life. I will not listen to anyone telling me to downgrade what I want. I want a good looking Brad Pitt type of guy. In other words I want someone that I am attracted to. PERIOD. I have had it and I will have it again. This is my choice. I realize these types draw lots of attention. It is a risk I am willing to take but I will enter a relationship with more knowledge.
You can never control anyone. They could just start lying and cheating. Like you said they could be a player. We are vulnerable each time we start a relationship.
MJ,
So we are both off the R-grid. I agree that attraction is essential, but that to me could be an average, decent guy. We are conditioned to believe that people are who they present themselves to be. Yes, like Bill Cosby. Idk Elgie, if his wife knew at the beginning. But at some point, maybe. We want to believe that people are inherently good and trustworthy. We want safeness and security in believing that. Should I wonder daily if my water, food, air has been poisoned? Is today the day the guy I trust is going to change his mind about me?
Last night while reading ‘The Sociopath Next Door’ the author discussed *The Milgram Experiment* and the effect authority has on obedience. I looked up the actual video clip from the study. Summary- About 2/3 of study participants did not assume accountability for their harmful actions, because they were following the rules (they obeyed) that were dictated by an authority figure in the experiment. People absolutely are capable of going against their beliefs and NOT taking responsibility.
My mind tells me that the majority of people will justify poor behavior, like betrayal and deceit in a relationship. If they benefit, it justifies hurting others. The payoff is worth it. They have to reconcile in their minds that no matter how horrid their actions, they are justified because the benefits they receive outweigh the harm. And if they’re sociopathic, they just don’t care, and might even derive pleasure from being a d-bag.
Say Something,
I am off the grid. I will be traveling for the rest of the Summer. Wanted you to know. You have been a major source of support.
Women should support each other and not try to tear each other down. Thank YOU. Hope to find one real friend who can relate to me like we do here. Do one thing to enjoy your Summer. Please.
Hi MJ,
I hope you can still check in while you travel. So brave! I’ll wonder where you’re off to and what great adventures you’ll be living. LIVING!!! You are bound to find a good friend and when the time is right, a wonderful and trustworthy partner. A man that values, respects, and adores you. You have such respect for yourself, and I hope you know that you will successfully rebuild the broken parts of your life. You are living and nobody can stop you from THAT! Safe travels and I hope you love every minute of it! *FIERCE and FEARLESS*
Hi Noquay,
Thanks for your advice. I am not going to dim my light. It will only lead me to a life filled with misery. In my posts I say I am lonely, but I am not desperate. There is a major difference. I would prefer to stay alone for an eternity rather than accept someone I have no interest in.
I have read so many stories here about men being PIGS. Can you imagine what life would be like living with someone who is a second rate (not my first preference) choice? I don’t want anyone’s HUSBAND. If I have to do anything that does not align with MY values. I am not doing it.
I really hope you meet someone special. I wish you were in an area where you had more choices. Enjoy your Summer and thanks for sharing your story here. It is so helpful to hear what other women have to endure in the dating arena. I am really out here pulling for you.
Mary Jane and Say Something,
I am very sorry for how you both feel.
One thing we should be proud about though is that we won’t lower our standards and “dumb down,” like Mary Jane said, for anyone. Better to be alone but authentic and honest, than with someone but not yourself and a fake.
You are two very strong and intelligent women. I admire you both for your strength.
Sadly, the kind of woman who won’t put up with BS and won’t lower her standards, will more likely find herself single. NOT AS A RULE, of course. I know few cases where bright and wonderful women have lived the rest of their lives alone. Because their previous relationships didn’t work out and after their 30-40s they just could not put up with the crumbs and BS anymore. So they chose to stay single since there were no good candidates for them available. I know it doesn’t sound encouraging, but what encouraging is that our integrity and authenticity matter. We should live by our values and have our own back.
Mary Jane, I understand about female friends standing you up. Like I said before, I can’t get a coffee meeting set up with one woman I know. She lives 15 minutes away from me. Our friendship is based on texts. She wants to be my friend, but there is no time for friendship. I truly wish we didn’t have all the technology. We would be then forced to see each other actually, like back in the days.
Mary Jane, with your own business, you probably get to network a lot and meet new people through other people. That’s a great opportunity and I think you will meet new people soon. You have a very lively, people attitude. I have no doubt you will never be lonely. I feel you are afraid to be lonely because you are exactly the opposite of a recluse. A very giving. A sunshine.
I think the best strategy for all of us, while healing and moving forward, we should FORGET, temporarily, about this fear of being alone. Don’t even think long-term. Live a day at a time. Kind of like 12-step recovery program. Or a week at a time. Don’t think, “Oh I will always be alone? That’s scary and daunting!!!” We don’t know what awaits us even tomorrow. The key is to not look into the future. Don’t be afraid. Live now. And things will fall into places. Thinking about some distant future being all alone is self-destructive. There is still time ahead. For now, just live as you and for you. It’s just a phase. Life is ever-changing. And very unexpectedly.
Hugs to you all!!
MJ
For all your smarts, this guy outsmarted you. Mmmm I wonder what that might be about for you? Sounds like you never knew this guy at all, he could have even been a sociopath who played you. Red flag for me is that you never had a fight, who doesn’t ever have a fight?…people who are not invested, that’s who.
Whatever/MJ,
Conflict can be worded so many different ways: fight, disagreement, drama, argument, difference of opinion, misunderstanding.
Although I didn’t have years invested like MJ, I can say I never had a fight with BGE. We had a couple simple misunderstandings, which were easily resolved. I don’t seek drama in a relationship, and am also solution-oriented. In the end, apparently he wasn’t emotionally invested. I was, but I didn’t need to have a fight and then the feel-good make-up sensation to feel attached and invested. Some people associate fighting/drama/tension with passion. I thought we respected each other and got along well. I don’t know if getting along is a red flag, or if it’s mature and respectful.
I do think (for me) we maybe got along so well because he had a hidden agenda, but I just don’t know. But I never threw any drama fuel into the fire. Last night I was reading ‘The Sociopath Next Door’. You cannot pick these people out (allegedly 4% of the population, probably a higher percentage show up online). They blend in beautifully, and like Elgie says, charming predators. So, take away the sociopath label and men can still be charming predators with enough of these traits to cause serious damage. Where a blatant EU or EUMM may exhibit, say… 5 red flags and 12 amber, maybe a finely honed player (sociopathic or understudy) with an agenda may show 1-2 amber flags, and appear 100% normal, caring, and invested. Or if I believe Eckhart Tolle, (and I don’t) the man knows not what he does.
Whatever, I get what you’re saying, in that someone who isn’t invested will just be conflict avoidant because he doesn’t care about the relationship. But some will purposely stir up drama, because THEY DON’T CARE EITHER and get a sick sense of satisfaction over causing pain.
I just don’t think it’s so simple to say no fighting equates with no investment. But how do we know? Sometimes we find out the hard way.
say something
Yes, you’re right, some guys cause fights because they want to break up. I guess what I mean by fight is that a relationship with no disagreements, although this sounds heavenly to me (never experienced it, but still believe) isn’t realistic and you don’t go through the stages, like in a classroom situation there are 4 stages, forming, norming, storming and adjusting (not called this, but it works here). The storming stage is where as you get more intimate you have some disagreements to adjust. Maybe this model is only for young people, maybe when you’re older, you are more mature, but I think it applies to all, even the older. After all, we are in relationship to learn about ourselves too, so that would fit in for that purpose.
Say Something, a lot of what you said resonates with me. Only my child is still young, so luckily she is still with me and the college days are not near yet. So I am not living alone and have her to take care of.
My fear is to lose my child or to leave this life while she is still little. My goal right now is to raise her. So either case makes me scared. Besides that I am not afraid of anything else. Not afraid of being alone.
I read that never put your life into another man’s/woman’s hands. No human can give us a meaning and completeness. And no human can take the meaning of our lives from us. Every human being is free and has a freedom of choice how to live her/his life. Makes sense and I am learning to apply these beliefs and live by them.
Say Something:
I know EXACTLY how you feel. I feel like the ‘left over’. Not quite good enough. He is a worthless piece of shit but I can’t help wonder if he’s not all that then why was I not good enough.
Like you I have been through parent’s death, divorce, etc and to be honest I’ve resigned myself to a life of solitude. I can’t be hurt anymore. I can’t be the ‘Not quite enough’ anymore. It far too painful and I’m trying to be content with what I have. That being said truth be told it killed my self esteem to know he married the girl he cheated on me and I am going through the excruciating pain of not being enough..
again…
@Confused,
Yes, it sucks to not be ‘picked’ and it makes us feel like the one chosen is ‘better’. There will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS be never-ending possibilities for men who want next and new. I guess this is why we must rely on ourselves. We can’t let OURSELVES down.
Confused 123 your post caused me to cry. I think reading the posts here this week has been tough because they paint the harsh reality of what so many women are enduring with relationships (lying, cheating, disrespect, vanishing acts and crumbs).
A life of SOLITUDE scares the living shit out of me. It is not that I can’t survive alone. I do it everyday. The sun keeps coming up and down each day. I am still here just wondering how long I can survive feeling this way. My heart bleeds when I hear Noquay’s story. I am here pulling for her to meet a great mate during the Summer while men are in her area. Then I think of the hurt that Sofia and Say Something have shared on BR. I so relate to Say Something because I know the devastation that is caused by someone who cant be honest about what really happened. The lies tear your WORLD apart. The UNKNOWN. I also felt for Freedme because the AC had her move to a new town and then abandoned her. There are days I wonder how Why is surviving at work with what the AC pulled on her. I have taken in what numerous women have had the heart to share here. It is alarming to hear the CRAP these low life men are willing to pull.
There is one common thread here. Some of these men are cheating with other women. It is the responsibility of the man dating you to be honest but some women out here are really desperate and they are taking crumbs. This is another reason that I think some of these men are acting an ass. They know there are so many women lonely and willing to put up with there crap/crumbs.
I wish more women would have a girl code and cut off any BS when men pull crap. I know it is not realistic, but I am in pain and trying to develop a panacea to eliminate the PAIN.
My cheat was planning to marry me. I was good enough for YEARS. When I found out he was cheating it devastated me. Some days I feel like a misfit. Healing from something like this takes you on a roller coaster ride like no other. I haven’t dated anyone. I want put myself out there. The wounds are just too deep. I wanted to try but I realized how much damage was done. A life of solitude is not the path for me. Confused 123 I understand how you feel and can understand why you don’t want to be hurt again.
Today, it really hit me. I sat and thought about how my engagement ended. Who lives like this? What kind of MONSTER was I with? I NEVER saw him after I caught him that night. Can anyone imagine how I feel? After that night it was just DONE. After years together. A major investment of my time. Washed away in one night. I wish I could say there were arguments, he beat me, he called when he damn well wanted to, he never spent quality time with me. I got no warning signs. No alarms sounded. He was so dirty that he did his crap in the dark while I was tucked in my bed sound asleep. I never saw it coming. The ASS wasn’t man enough to tell me he was unhappy.
He was able to secretly make a transition (running the HOtel floors) because he had someone who was willing to let him bang her in a HOtel in the late hours of the night. So, it was easy for him to MOVE ON. I am here trying to pick up the pieces.
Is there any wonder why I am still dazed from the BS he pulled? I hear stories of people who thrive after hardships. I have always recovered from difficult times. I have worked so hard to build a beautiful life for myself. Now, I m dealing with this curve ball. Yep it knocked the wind out of me.
I don’t know if rehashing this is helping me or hurting me at this point. I feel in many respects I have emotionally checked out. I am no longer a good listener. I am fighting not to have this hurt me financially. I got new business deal this week. Normally, I would be on an emotional HIGH. I would celebrate or buy myself something as a reward for hard work. Not this time. Yes for a second I was happy that they were impressed with my presentation and I reaped a major financial reward. But I quickly realized I was just empty even though I had worked hard to develop some new business. Top of the line proposal and presentation. No one was able to detect that I was really sad. My personal life is in the toilet. I don’t want to screw up my professional life.
I am emotionally checked out. I get excited planning my vacations, but then I board planes alone and well things are just not the same. I am about to leave for vacation. I don’t even know if I want to go.
Another day full of texts from women who cant meet for lunch or to do anything. Just texting. I m exhausted. Forgive me but I really need to vent today. It is better not to internalize it all.
MJ,
I’m reading your post in the middle of the night. Awake because I went to bed at 8pm and now… Awake! I get what you are saying, and reading others’ stories reinforces that we are not alone, and pain is abundant.
I’m onto summer #2 sucking. Sure I can go walking or running or biking ALONE. it isn’t the same. And ‘friends’ might have 2 hrs/month to spare.
Your work accomplishments, you want to celebrate WITH someone. How nice to have someone to listen to a great day or when things go wrong. I didn’t celebrate my promotion a few months back, which my work made a big deal of. Although I earned it, and I can’t go any higher now where I am, it didn’t even feel ‘good’ and I didn’t have anyone to share it with.
I’ve been through the marriage, where in the end he was screwing someone else and living with me and would not leave. And by law I couldn’t make him leave. For 18 long months. And then I watched the slam piece pretend she was my kid’s new mom, driving them around, buying them gifts, taking them on vacation. I cried my eyes out, watching some HO-bag try to win my kid’s over. And I lived through it. Since she is a HO-bag, they aren’t together anymore. But I survived THAT to, which at the time was my WORSE FEAR… losing my kids.
So it would seem like I could handle the BGE discard after facing and surviving ‘let’s get divorced while I bang a skank but still half-live with you’ because it was in my face torture. How about 5-6 yrs ago when I showed up somewhere alone once and my youngest was with THE HO at this same place. I thought THAT was my lowest point. Apparently I was destined to go a little lower. Like the FML limbo stick arrived with my name on it.
I don’t know what else I have left to fear.
Say Something,
We have both overcome some things that would definitely produce FEAR. And even bring some people to their knees. It had to be tough to see some HO bag with your children. Now, that is TOUGH. She sold her soul to run around with your husband and then he kicked her to the curb. Poetic Justice.
Yes this Summer sucks big time. My FEAR is that I will continue to travel alone. I am safe on my trips. I would just prefer company. I would say this is my lowest point. I am so sick of all of the texting. Some texts are not going to be returned. Is it really this tough to make new friends? I guess it is like Sofia said no one wants to meet anymore. Everyone is just texting.
Do you remember how you got through that tough 18 months when you had to live with your husband while he was acting an ass? Was there anything you did that helped you get through the PAIN?
MJ,
Hope your trip is going well. You are brave! I do much alone, but not like that. Remember I wrote about trying to make a new friend and then she totally (explicitly) hit on me? See, you can either get ignored… or hit on!
Re. Skank-HO, she cheated on him… At a HOtel, not even kidding! He got exactly what he deserved for being with her at the expense of his own kids.
So how did I do it? I went into survival mode. My kids. My house. He tried to eliminate me and get everything. I was afraid of losing and had to change my ways. I had to change my behavior and employ tactics that went against who I am. I HAD ANGER. I spent thousands on a killer attorney. I was (almost) NC with him, even inside the house. It was the most toxic, silent war zone. All focus on strategy. I paid bills late if they were in his name. I didn’t remind him of things like I used to. I didn’t offer him any meals. No laundry. I did nothing for him. NOTHING. I didn’t even fake it for the kids. I even came across a secret credit card account showing purchases of jewelry, movies, spa time that was before HO with an out of town 20 yrs younger chickypoo. I HAD ANGER. While he was busy screwing, I strategized, stayed focused, executed my plan, and wore him down. Yes it was painful, ugly, and scary. But it was survivable. It was MY LIFE. I didn’t miss him when he finally left, weeks after we’d signed final papers in court.
So the difference then and now… My exH was not good for me. Things were horrible, he was a jerk, and often brought out the worst in me. BGE seemed the complete opposite, and I direct the anger at myself this time. The difference is that I 100% believed that we had a good thing. And I DO miss who I thought he was. I have sadness and not anger. I feel loss and not relief. So different.
My friend pointed out that although I don’t have that evidence I so badly sought to ‘prove’ that BGE wasn’t really a good guy, the way he ended things should be all that I need. Dishonest, dismissive, manipulative, passive-aggressive, flip-floppy (reject-seduce-reject-seduce), all with an abrupt blindside, while saying he hadn’t given up… SOOOO not the man I knew. I’m afraid of not getting over him. Sometimes I think I’ll read a story on here and it will be about him, and how HE’S the great guy someone else finally ended up with after becoming BR strong. I thought I was strong when I met him. I thought we were strong together. But to him, I was just a new, generic, disposable, warm body. I never want to feel like this again.
Say Something,
You did the hard work to overcome a really tough time. So, you have the strength to survive this. After all you had gone through you just wanted this to work. You wanted this to be right. Maybe that is why you are so hurt.
The thought you expressed about him suddenly being good is one I entertained for a fleeting second about my ex. My thoughts may have been slightly different. I thought my ex saw how I didn’t flinch or second guess and walked away when I discovered his BS. So, now my thought is that he will be on his best behavior for the next woman. He will get married and stop the lies and cheating.
I don’t really believe that. I think he has always lied and cheated. I think he did it before me. I think he got caught before and just perfected his game. You don’t wake up one morning and become a liar and cheat who is able to do what he did after dark. Nope. That is a game that takes time to perfect. He had me develop complete trust and respect for him. Once the trust was built he figured he could get away with murder. He felt even more confident in my feelings once he placed that beautiful rock on my finger and thousands of dollars had been spent on a dream wedding. He knew I was happy and he was probably out after dark running all over town. Who is the hell could have known he was engaged and on a dating site? Hell married men use dating sites.
I know for fact he didn’t think someone who had invested time and money in her Cinderella wedding would pull the plug so quickly. I yanked the plug out. Walked away. Got rid of everything that connected me to him. No calling and begging to get understanding. No starting over. DONE. I still cant help but wondering how long he did it. I have to accept that I will NEVER know. I vent here on BR to grapple with what happened.
The loneliness that I speak about in my posts is not a joke. It can cause major health issues. I have to address this. I have one thing right now that is worth more than billions of dollars. I am a healthy woman. SMILE. Heartbroken but I am Healthy. I don’t want this loneliness to cause me some health issue. A family member said to me some people let things like this rob them of everything. You ought to thank God you didn’t end up in a tight white jacket. The deception-was a cruel act. it has caused deep wounds no doubt.
I am actually sitting here smiling this morning. Healing is an emotional roller coaster. One day up, two days down. Tears. Smiles. I have some gifts that the PAIN has hidden from me. I have my health. I have the gift to make new choices. I have oodles and oodles and oodles of TIME daily. I can use it to build my new life. Priceless.
I never saw a therapist but used other methods of recovery like workouts, chocolate, movies, major doses of BR, tons of spa treatments, nice smelling JM candles everywhere and triple doses of yoga. I have read most books on the New York Times best seller list. And then there were splices of pilates and I sit at the beach all the time. That is where my soul feels the best no mater what. There is just something I love about the water. I don’t know how you can avoid television. That is a source of company.
There is another gift I guess I am able to glean from this experience. I really no longer really give a damn about anything people say. On one level I have major control of my emotions. I no longer take things personal from outsiders. I am fighting to protect myself and survive this deception. I am fighting to put myself back in a good place. I genuinely just don’t give a damn about gibberish from other people. I block out BS quick. They can enter my space and spout out stupid crap and I don’t let it penetrate me anymore like it use to. They should save their breathe because I just don’t care. I have the best BS filter now. I cut to the chase quicker. My focus has shifted- people can’t say silly crap and have me analyze their BS for weeks. Those days are over. This experience has been life altering in many ways.
Liberating and Priceless. Like you I never want to feel like this again. One round of this will be more than enough. Whoever is in charge of sending out crap that breaks hearts (lol) don’t send me anymore. I get the lesson and I want take another dose of this.
MJ
Mary Jane: I sent a prayer for you tonight. I did a lot of soul searching this weekend and decided that I refuse to play the victim anymore. I have a rubber band around my wrist and every time I think of “poor me” I snap it. usually that bring me back to reality. You seem like an amazing person. I wish I could be your friend in person. I am always your friend virtually. Hugs.
MJ
Don’t internalize anything, this is the place to let fly. First, I want you to get on the site ChumpLady and look up an archived post about why cheaters marry. Explains your situation to a T. A plan to protect all financial assets in the future is extremely wise for all women, especially those married, with kids, or who want kids. I tell my female students to never even think about having kids til your career is established. You move in with a dude, all finances separate. Shite goes wrong. Learn skills. I could be fired tomorrow, and would still have a roof over my head thats paid for, very low cost of living farm, ability to make a small income from farming and renting my dads place out. I can tap trees for syrup, raise chickens,cut wood by hand, use tools well, live without power and running water. I am in good enough shape to bike/run the 20+ miles to town if need be and reject a car. Yeah, I would be isolated, marginalized, alone forever, but would never starve, be cold or without water. Plan B is good. So many women are so unskilled, dependent on the status quo, causing them to make really bad decisions. Your clean break from this piece of crap shows great judgement. Again read the ChumpLady post. This situation was never fixable. Future encounters with men should be such that if things go South, for any reason, you never need to see the douche again, not ever.
Sadly, in places where the supply of attractive, functional men are extremely low, girl code goes out the window. Our institution was designed to serve educationally underserved communities. That, by definition, places educated, accomplished folk from outside the region into communites where there’s no peer group. The majority of us single are female so you have many women competing for very few compatible men and it’s vicious. Most of us older chix sought education as young women/girls as a way to escape uneducated, impoverished, drug/alcoholic families and will never go back to the “locals” lifestyle, ever. The administration bemoans high turnover rates among female employees and students yet does not want to know why. In this environment, many women readily accept OW status, some actually take up with male students (ewww!). Some of us are unwitting OW’s. Attractive, successful men get away with being kids in the candy store because we chix won’t compare notes. Apparently, ACs cheating, first while he married to wife #1, and hidden involvement with another employee pre and post divorce was common knowledge by many who’d been there awhile. Folks saw what was happening between us, him hitting on me quite publicly, said nothing, some were good friends. Could’ve saved me and others years of pain yet chose not to. One of these women, a good friend, had been involved with and dumped by him before me and still said nothing and even criticised my feeling hurt and my desire to escape. Yet she, upon getting an inheritance, immediately left because of her pain. How crazy is that? Latest Conquest was a friend, at one point called me “her hero”, knew I was going through something awful, could easily figure out who the responsible party was, yet now treats me like Evil Incarnate. Have do deal with this person on committees, in the grocery even my hangout to meet outside men, the coffeehouse. While dating my eventual husband, we went to great lengths to respect the space of his ex, even foregoing social events so she’d not feel sad or uncomfortable. I understand I screwed up, that being in a horribly lonely and vulnerable place caused me to as act as I did and haven’t inappropriately or prematurely attached to anyone since. I give the both of them my back; all I can do. If douchebag is someone you’ll have to ever see, you’ll have to do the same. What scares me is that given the increasing gap between male and female educational attainment and socioeconomic status, plus an increasing reliance on on line/social media, decrease in true community, less accountability, it’s just gonna get worse 🙁
Noquay,
I admire you. There is nothing like being independent. When I ended the engagement I had no financial fears. I have my own business and did not depend on him for anything. It is a great feeling to be well educated and financially secure. He ask me to move in with him and I said no not till we are husband and wife. I have worked hard so hard to build my own business. I have seen so many women who have to rely on someone else and it can lead to disaster and bad choices.
What you had to endure must have been tough in a small town. Those people who just sat around watching and saying nothing to you about what was going on don’t have a moral compass. I will never understand how people can sit idle knowing someone will be hurt.
BTW my girl code comment was said in an effort to say what can we do to help lessen pain. I am not trying to blame the victim. I am in pain. I said it is probably not realistic and it isn’t. Again, just speaking from a place of PAIN.
Girl code to me really means the lady who was supposed to be your friend could have saved you from that PAIN. She should have said something to you. I am sorry but she deserves a nice back hand. When I hear stories like this about women maybe I am better off not making new friends. I spent so much of my time dedicated to building my business that I don’t really have tons of friends.
Thank you for encouraging me not to internalize what I feel and to let it all out here. I do. I think it is important to say positive things to help other women move forward and not tear anyone down. I want allow anyone to try to tear me down because I was not aware he was lying and cheating. WTF. His behavior is about his character and it will never detract from me. PERIOD.
I will look at the site you mentioned. I will be traveling for the rest of the Summer. I am trying to soak up everyday left. So, I am traveling and walking at each place I land. Thank you for being here in my corner. I wish I had a great soul mate to send to you. The area sounds peaceful that you live in. I am in a large city so just the way you describe your area sounds marvelous.
I so wish I had a pipeline to send more men of substance your way. I have read your posts and to me your a phenomenal woman. I just wish we had some better choices in the male department. Enjoy your Summer.
This article really hit home. I am in the process of healing and in my past relationships I have been the one to give chase to a person I really liked and wanted to get to know. Now I’m in a situation where I think the person likes me but am not too sure. He doesn’t really initiate any contact but will reply to any I make. And sometimes ask questions or give explanation to what he’s doing even if I haven’t asked. I am at a crossroads because I don’t know how to proceed to get to the stage of making plans. I don’t think he would be shocked that I want to get to know him. After all, he has kissed me. But I also don’t want to be the pushy person I once was.
Thanks for writing this. And any insight you have is greatly appreciated.
I think we tend to trap ourselves into permanent categories like Alpha dog, Beta dog, etc. After thinking it through, I realized I am an Alpha until I trust someone, then I drift over to almo
st full Beta. It sure explained a lot of my bad choices in relationships.
Me too. Very good insight there.
@amy; I dont get this. How can kissing have happened and yet no one is sure of plan making. How has modern life come to this?
Now Amy; you say he has kissed you. HE Has Kissed YOU. Not WE have kissed. He doesnt initiate contact but he initiated kissing – at least thats your language. You need to be at ‘we’ – ‘we’re going out’ and it shouldn’t matter who asked. If it matters, then its not a good relationship. Sounds like no fun at all, and sounds like a bore. Theres no we here as far as I can see. You want to get to know someone that you have kissed but that doesnt initiate contact. And you worry about being pushy. How can kissing come before the making of plans? Or how does kissing happen and then nothing? If he didn’t initiate after the kiss, I would suggest to forget it. Because he’s ambiguous – he feeds off of it and you might also. Since you have also kissed someone and then made no more move signaling to him that its not a big deal all this floating along.
And you need to identify in your mind what you think ‘pushy’ is; ask friends if its not clear to you. Then stay on this side of the boundary. As long as you are not pushy, people who take it as pushy are people you should run from.
Asking people to do things together is not pushy. I think women should avoid the first 2-3 moves, not because it makes us pushy but because most of us on here are kind of EU or attract EU and given how society is its better that guys are clear about their interest first. Men seem to be able to disengage much faster, and to have the capacity of keeping you in the wings for much longer with ambiguous blah blah. After those initial moves (first drinks, first physical contact) it should be mutual. Mutual doesnt mean it will ‘work’ out – mutual means it will be fun at least. Not all this sitting by the phone, thinking, thinking, second guessing yourself. Write the man. Ask him out. See if its fun. Get ready to bail. Ask him out as an experiment about yourself and him, not as a ‘sign’.
You are feeling ambiguity in this relationship Amy – and you know it is not a good feeling – do you want to be in an ambiguous relationship? Then feel what your instinct is telling you and step up and face what ever fear it is you have your eyes closed for hoping it isn’t really happening. Face the fear Amy and act on it safely for yourself. Good Luck.
Just read this article today. Not really deep, but a simple way of saying “love yourself, embrace yourself.”
And the link is that I provide above is the article that I’m talking about not being all that deep….not Nat’s wonderfully written piece. LOL
So I’m terrified of being hurt again.
No more than that. As Nat touches on – I am scared of becoming that person again who allowed herself to be treated awfully and who still went back for more. I am scared of being the girl that ignored all warning signs and had such low self worth that I allowed someone to do things to me I cannot even talk about.
I’m scared to be that girl again who felt such pain and despair and confusion and hurt on a regular basis and thought it was love.
I’m so so so scared.
Now there is someone I feel different with but we are not in a position to be together. Or am I just too scared to go there?
I often feel that if I showed up as me. The me now who is grounded, stable, loving to myself, happy with myself. Maybe we would be together. Maybe it would just happen
‘Maybe’? – sounds like the kind of language that leads to the fantasy illusion relationship – like Amy above too many bits of information left hanging – any ambiguity – leaves the danger that the imagination will simply take over and fill all the holes left – only its not real.
Quit the ambiguity ladies – what are we frightened of anyway? Whats the worse they can tell us – that we don’t actually have the perfect relationship we imagine we have/could have with them?
My alarm bells ring as soon as I am not showing up for someone every time – this says you are not actually comfortable with this person in reality/ or yourself and is not a good foundation with which to build a romantic relationship – I spent my life being like this, feeling, if only I could truly show them my real self they would love me – only who was I conning? myself – the whole reason I wasn’t able to be myself with them WAS because THEY didn’t make me feel good enough or THEIR presence made me feel less than in someway – which is never a good relationship to sacrifice yourself for.
It was only when I started noting who I actually felt and was myself around – that I realised all the good relationships had been around me all along – but I didn’t even choose to see them – like they weren’t good enough somehow – only it was the other way around.
Try noting the people you are genuinely comfortable with/who seem to be comfortable with you – friends, family, colleagues – where you are not feeling you are less than yourself or have to be more than yourself to get their attention and keep it – and go from there when choosing a romantic partner to spend time with, make sacrifices for and push the boat out an extra mile. This way – you may be scared but you will also be secure in the knowledge you are in a trustworthy relationship worth fighting for – and as soon as it isn’t stop and spend time in another that is.
“Imagine leaving the house every day poised for somebody to mug you?”
This is the worst feeling. When you are gnawing out your own insides out of fear, whether they are founded our not, is a red flag that one of you is not showing up ( even you ) in a relationship or both of you aren’t. It’s time to really reflect and either address your own issues and make a choice or to address their issues and make a choice. Take action. I have made the mistake, more than once, and stayed long past the relationship expiration date because I THOUGHT I was addressing things that were becoming problems or were red flags, but really I was trying to control them and steer them instead of seeing what was clearly in front of me and opting out. I mistook in myself the examining and addressing ( over and over ) as doing the right, healthy thing by dissecting things. Really I was avoiding any action and just talking too much. This is my pattern. This latest dating episode gone bad has made me see that it’s very much MY pattern to do this. So, I am self aware but fail to act on it. I am self aware short sighted. If you can learn to see unhealthy things and know they’re happening, in them or yourself, then part two is to follow through with healthy action. Key world being HEALTHY. My action needs some work. Still. I am a tortoise, but I do move forward. 🙂
Do or will we always know if something unhealthy is happening and always act on it immediately – to have the life we want to live or the people we want to live with – or can we allow ourselves to take it slowly occasionally and have some stress?
I have for the most part cut out the ignoring of my gut – however I would say I am learning and gaining confidence through a slow climb down rather than a complete full stop. Either that or I’m deluding myself?
At the minute – I know I have problems in some of my relationships as I have described in previous posts – however I do feel stronger and am not as attached as I would have been pre awareness. I am avoiding booting out three connected people from my life who have repeatedly violated my boundaries in the last year – however more boundaries will be violated if they go right at the minute I feel – and I am not fully supported to handle it – or perhaps I am deluding myself?
Not sure at the minute.
What I do know is in the olden days I either would hide under the bed clothes pretending my anxiety didn’t exist – which has a funny way of seeping to the surface and affecting how you actually react as NML says – at the moment I am sitting with the problem gently writing about it, working out what I feel comfortable doing – until I know for sure which direction I want to go in and I am strong enough to back it up emotionally fully. My gut is saying not to jump in with two feet at the minute – so that’s what I am listening to.
Oona,
My gut said not to jump in with two feet as well, and I didn’t, in my mind at least. I did put myself out there though and with that there is always a risk. I got hurt and it sucks. But, like you I was not too attached and am stronger than my pre awareness days. I would do things differently if I could go back, but now I sit and examine my own actions and try to make sense of myself and why I hesitated or minimized some red flags. It’s a learning process and it isn’t always easy. It feels uncomfortable but I am dealing with it. What I feel most is disappointment. I had hopes and was excited that I had met a man who was so nice to me. In reality, he was grooming me. That is HIS pattern. How could I know? Unfolding takes some time and if we go in with an open heart there will always be the risk of being hurt or disappointed. We might also find ourselves with a very loving gentle person. We have to pay attention and listen to our gut. Really listen. It’s good that you listen to yours. I let my feelings of being ‘liked’ be swayed when I was faced with amber and red flags. But, he is good at this. He lovebombs and mirrors like a pro. I never experienced this before. And although something felt off about this guy from the very beginning, I liked the attention. I felt special for once and I got drunk on it. Also, to myself, I explained away some of the red flags as me reacting to my own fears as Nat describes in this post. In a nutshell, I gave him the benefit of the doubt instead of me. It was a gamble and I lost. After coming from a childhood with a narc conman compulsive lying father and then a string of bad relationships including the abusive one that landed me on BR, I am not good at calculating my fears. They are forefront and I suppose I suppressed them to try and feel like I wasn’t being run by them. I told my mother of this latest liar in my life and she said he sounded a lot like my father, but worse. Wow. Yep, it occurred to me that I was feathering my nest in a comfortable yet uncomfortable familiar situation. This shit is crazy. The way we are and how we act. The reasons behind the reasons. The more aware I get the more I am like “Holy shit”.
What you are doing sounds like a good grounded approach. You are right, it is a slow climb. Recognizing that makes us a little more gentle on ourselves and perhaps a little more trusting of ourselves when faced with making choices and the stress that can be involved when we haven’t always been so good at that.
Yep – laughing – had many holy shit! moments of revelation Selkie – its shocking but also reassuring at the same time – if you know what I mean?
It’s nice that you think so but I’m not always able to listen to myself – definitely still learning that one – might hear myself but shifting and acting on it… is another persuasive conversation I need with myself regularly – which when I win is usually good but still frightening and hit and miss when I hesitate and different conflicting instincts come in over time, so that I can’t really remember what my real instinct told me in the first place sometimes.
Disappointment = silent killer of my future relationships – the more disappointed I am the more the hole grows I feel I need to fill – really hard to deal with disappointment – used to ignore it – now trying to aim for some small things that I’ve always wanted to do with some successes but its real slow and somethings I thought I wanted – it turns out I didn’t or it isn’t compatible with my illnesses or my age now or who I really am or I’m pushing too hard and I’m simply not ready for it – the foundations aren’t there yet.
Yeh I went from one catastrophy to another – learned something amazing from it and expected I’d be plain sailing from there because it was sooooo bad and I was so hurt the last time – how could I fail to learn…and when it didn’t go perfectly as i’d expected or I’d believed I’d deserved – so so disappointed again!
Only just realizing with my garden even though its a real bind to start again – and I was devastated at the time and energy wasted after such a lot of hard work – thing is we aren’t really starting fully again – because we did learn something before (ie there are still some other plants in my garden and now I know which ones are more suited to this area and when to plant them) and I bet we learn something else now to add to it – AND we can quit and heal quicker this time or give up completely and find another pass time – which strangely sometimes helps bring you exactly what you are looking for sometimes.
Take it easy on yourself Selkie – you did good simply going back out there – real good getting back on the bike – let alone anything else.
OMG Nat- Just this morning I was wondering when your next post would be coming out, and here it is, with exactly what I needed to read about.
I may be afraid but my fear is not greater than my desire to find a sincere and emotionally available love interest.
You see, I was a hippie back in the 70’s and I smoked my share of weed. It may have done some damage to my short term memory, or maybe I’m just getting old and forgetful–who knows?
At any rate, I have learned to journal daily and hold onto any important or significant e-mail I exchange with anyone I do business with or get involved with on a serious or potentially serious basis.
I save the first few dozen daily emails, then just the significant ones, like the first ‘I love you,’ the first pre and post sexual encounter, the first fight, the first make up, the first lie, the first second chance, the third second chance… and then the entire last week before everything goes to Hell, when threats are made, ultimatums are given, names get called, blame gets placed, the Earth gets scorched, and finally all contact ceases.
I save it because my faulty memory is quick to forget the bad memories, and very sentimental and retentive with the romantic and loving parts.
Three months ago, the ex and I got in touch after a year of NC because I ‘d heard that someone very important to her had died. I was already starting to see someone else and she was back with her wife. We stayed in touch for six days, very casually and with no romantic vibe at all, so we agreed it would be okay in the future to forward each other an occasional funny or artsy sort of Pinterest worthy e-mail, but not to IM, text, call or otherwise get into each other’s personal business or discuss anything about the past.
Though her wife had told her to use her own best judgment about whether we should agree to maintain casual, occasional e-mail contact, when the ex told her wife what we agreed upon, she went berserk and insisted the ex get rid of me 100% and have no further contact, or else.
I was rather shocked and I said I was willing to talk to her wife and let her know I would be happy to CC her on all e-mails, etc. but my ex told me her wife had this white hot hatred for me that would never change. It dawned on me immediately why she hated me so much…my ex had convinced her I did all the seducing and started everything, and she was just a vulnerable lamb who fell prey to the big bad wolf.
She threw me under the bus, but I had saved e-mails that proved who lied, and who seduced whom.
Soon I realized my ex would rather die than let her wife and me talk, because if we compared notes, the wife would know at once her little lamb was a classic cheater who conned both of us into hating one another’s guts without one word being exchanged. She was terrified at the thought of us talking.
Once she reneged on the casual contact agreement (that she created) because her wife demanded it, I realized she was trying to screw me over while I was still lying under the bus where she threw me. I was not going to accept blame for her seductive lies and the passive aggressive BS that she used to convince me she was in a platonic, Laverne & Shirley situation, with no intimacy in more years than she could remember. I told her I still had that e-mail to prove it.
She definitely did not want her wife to read THAT, so instead (for the first time ever) that passive aggressive snake went all banshee, batshit crazy and wrote me two of the most vicious, insulting, scary, hate filled e-mails I had ever gotten from anyone. I threw it all right back and reminded her who the cornered, lying cheater was. After almost a whole day of us exchanging nasty e-mail, I finally snapped and told myself to turn off the computer and just get away from this creepy lunatic. That was that.
About a week ago, I started missing her because I had forgotten all about that battle royal we had via e-mail. I somehow knew not to contact her, so last night I asked God to please let me know what to do because had no idea which direction to go.
This morning I was searching for a photo I had stored in my online ISP saved email file. The photo had nothing to do with my ex, but while I was in that open file I noticed tons of e-mail dated three months ago–the last time I she and I had exchanged e-mail.
I knew I had filed some of our emails, but last month I spilled a cup of coffee on my laptop keyboard and ruined it, so I thought I had lost all my saved files.
Once I read through a few of her final emails, I was reminded again why I want no contact with her.
I have worked too hard to allow my foggy memory to drag me back into any married cheater’s drama. I deserve more, and my ex is dishonest and cheats on her wife, and I want nothing to do with that type, ever again.
The lesson is, if you are the forgiving type and have a bad memory, keep detailed records of any shady situations you may fall into.
All’s well with me now, and I cannot allow myself to miss anyone who can lie so easily and write such delusional, cruel letters that blame everyone but herself.
I know I need to and want move on, so I know I cannot allow this woman to slither from my past into my present. That is a promise I made to myself that I intend to keep
Am I afraid of being afraid?
Yes.
Am I afraid of being hurt again?
Yes.
Am I willing to take care of me and monitor these feelings, giving them their time in the spotlight and really listening to them and to myself?
Yes.
Am I willing to trust my gut, breathe deeply and put one foot in front of the other each day?
Yes.
[How am I doing? I think I’m doing OK! But there’s always room for improvement]
Tried both on line and IRL this summer; am seriously self sufficient and self aware but really would like a compatible partner. However, I wonder if I should just bag it until retirement then hope I am not too old or too undesirable. I will never, ever, be that naive, trusting person that wound up in the work AC’s clutches four very long years ago. Noquay 2.0 is a lot more savvy, harder, tougher, more aware of red flags. I also understand fully how the situation here led to my making a very bad choice that led to total disengagement from my job though retirement is 5 years away. After taking time to grieve, I did everything “right”; had the house valued, applied for other jobs, found out what my options are and seriously studied the consequences of each. I put myself “out there” and it’s been a multi year exercise in red flag recognition. Meal ticket seekers, liars, Abandoners,a stalker, financial/emotional train wrecks, outright frauds. Thanks to BR, I passed every test, attached to no one, paid attention, took my time. At least on the enviro sites, men appear to be thrilled with my profile yet where I live is daunting. It’s becoming an exercise in expensive pen pal collection. My big fear is in meeting IRL in the three months of tourist season when I am off work and there are lots of healthy folk here from outside. I have experienced multiple reiterations of what the AC did; flirted, pursued ME, not the other way round, and hid his involvement with another. I don’t know if I am incapable of distinguishing mere flirtation from genuine interest as their behavior would signal interest elsewhere, or if I am giving off some bizarre vibe that tells unavailable guys this is OK. The latest was a fellow local athlete (a rarity) who is slightly older than I and the father of an ex student that I worked on an environmental project with. Afterward, he’d always stop when seeing me on foot, want to talk, introduced me to his dog which he does to no one, said he wanted to take me out when the new brewpub opens. He doesn’t wear a wedding ring and speaks of his home life such as worrying about his wood stove going out, and keeps hours (doing outdoor stuff alone on weekday evenings) as though single. Now, with no seeming reason, he avoids me, turning off when I am on the road, taking another street, then turning back on when past where I am. Pretty obvious. Last year and the previous years, I had runner dudes who’d give every indication of caring behavior; hand on my back, helping me into cars, wanting to go places together. Both were taken. I dunno, when I was married, I made it clear right away, no touching, no asking out, certainly no deliberately stopping on the street or calling guys over to engage in long convos. I fear that my fear of this kind of behavior is making ME more unavailable as I am becoming super wary of engaging and trusting.
Noquay,
Your post makes me think that if before we (not all of us, some – I did!) had “Take me!!” vibes for almost anyone, now, with all the self-protection in place, we have, “Don’t approach” vibe. Which is good but can be bad too. It is definitely a work of art to listen to your gut. It’s not only sticking to some rules. It’s listening to your gut overall. Having in place BR values and my newly found values, I have a feeling that it will be quite nearly impossible to even start someone dating. In the last 1,5 years of being single I encountered few shady people. The last of them, if the readers remember, a high executive one. Guess what? I heard recently he had been married at the time when we met. Yep, I was unknowingly The Other Woman (no intimacy thankfully between us) for 3 dates! He did get divorced just recently. It’s very hard to understand why people lie. All we can do is to conquer our fear of mistrust, betrayal, and lies, and keep on going forward, meeting people, but being EXTRA cautious yet open to being vulnerable over time. It takes time to become vulnerable. Selectively and progressively. It’s quite a work to learn to trust someone again.
@noquay and sofia; I agree, I think we all have this thought of how will I trust again but also i’m so hard and jaded (not bitter, just jaded) that I dont take b.s. from anyone. I know I will not fall in love again. I am hopeful sometimes that I will love someone. But that feeling of oh this person is the most exciting thing ever – not happening. I know too much about people, I know too much of how that feeling can result in years of trying to get yourself away from an AC gas lighter. And perhaps this is good – I dont want to meet a guy that wants women to fall in love with him, that type of guy needs flattery and adoration and I dont have any to spare. I want someone that is a bit jaded (not bitter) so that they aren’t looking for a fairy princess and know how to have boundaries and aren’t always looking for the next shiny thing.
I am also very ‘dont approach’ – I always have been. On the plus side, it means that married men have stayed away mostly, and I manage to have some male friends even if its a bit ambiguous in that I know they might be interested but I can keep my boundaries enough to hang out (i like my male friends and i dont want to date them). I also see that I do care about people; I dont see myself flitting from guy to guy. How can you move on so quickly? I take too long of course and I like being by myself. But how can one have say 4-5 intimate relationships in a year? Even if its casual sex? How much have you alienated yourself from your feelings to do that? Because casual sex means either you’re numbing your feelings or you are keeping feelings at bay by making sure casual is all you do – it is a circle that reinforces itself. To avoid feelings, you have to be casual.
I would suggest if you’re meeting so many fools online, to not do it. I have felt from the stories about online I hear from friends that it messes with your mind. You dont need that. It reduces your self-esteem to even have coffee with some of these duds. I mean think about it – if you met someone at work in real life and they were as lousy as these guys, you’d never go out with them. Now with online men like that are getting the impression that quality women will actually spend time with them. Help!! So thats my advice – dont do it, for yourself and for women everywhere!
Suki
The problem is that not going on line means, for most of the year, meeting no one. There simply is no older dating pool within a large radius of here. The issue I think is a manifestation of mountain culture: while we women were working our way up in the world, the men were cutting up, being minimally employed ski bums and its bitten them in the butt in their old age. Educational stats for the state show, in the mass of city/suburbia down the mountain, most of the high end male professionals came from elsewhere and leave the state upon retirement taking with them my hopes of finding someone compatible. My alternative, having no family or peer group, is being 100% alone, 24/7 for the next 5 years. Pretty harsh even for the strongest of women. I too, yearn for meaningful companionship, especially after years of its absence. Unfortunately IRLs too, no matter how down and out, addicted, mentally ill, unhealthy, also think they “deserve” quality women. Frogs abound no matter what one does.There’s no getting away from that except for hiding in your house and meeting no one. Local frogs know where you live and work and things get ugly fast. Talk about fear in dating. It’s actually IRL where I encounter most liars, the already attached, marrieds. It could well be that I dont give enough of a “stay away” vibe as I am highly social, have good social skills, and like to converse with new folks. If I don’t want anything to do with/not interested in a person it shows, clearly, without ambiguity. I want the same level of clarity and integrity from men. I don’t do casual sex; I agree with you and don’t understand how anyone could have a myriad of sexual partners without emotional connection and look themselves in the mirror. In four years of on line, I had sex with three guys, tried to maintain a relationship with one for two years,understood we weren’t compatible, broke up then cut contact. I don’t flit about, more like being in written contact with a few guys at a time but not attaching emotionally, if they evaporate before meeting, fine. Its almost become a scientific process of elimination.
The more mainstream sites such as Match, POF, etc are really geared towards a very mainstream audience. Average looks, income, educational level, weight, height, lifestyle, religion and White. Anyone outside the norm ain’t gonna do well, especially an older mixed race,PhD holding, organic farmer/enviro and sustainability activist/athlete/professor. I am experimenting with sites geared toward environmentalists/intellectuals/health conscious folk. Problem is, the pool in this state is very small. I don’t know what the solution is for us chix and maybe there isn’t one 🙁
Sofia
Yep, I get it; I was an unwitting Other Woman for two years and have been trying hard to move forward/heal from the resulting humiliation for four, meaning 6 out of 8 years, one person has really monkeywrenched my life here. Now rumor has it that he engaged to Latest Conquest. Sometimes bad, hurtful people get all the breaks and those of us doing everything “right” get horribly f@#$%d over. Yep, no wonder I am hard, cautious, and slow to trust. Really have paid the price for not listening to my gut; never again. On the other hand, I will initiate conversation with strangers, invite men without wedding rings or other signs of attachment, to join my table at the coffeehouse, chat up guys at the races, all the while paying careful attention. If someone approaches and I am either not attracted or something is off, then the “don’t approach me” signs are loud and clear.
‘Show up and step up in your relationship. Of course if you hold back and decide that they must do all of the contacting, ‘chasing’ etc, then yeah, they (even if it’s not what they want to do), by omission of your active response, are setting the pace and temperature of your relationship. If you show up as an equal stakeholder, you ‘meet’ them instead of looking for them to direct you.’
This one really hits me. I went on 3 dates with a guy who really makes me laugh, that is a huge thing because it’s rare to find a person who can genuinely make me laugh.
Anyway, he told me he’s bad at planning and phoning. He hasn’t contacted me to go out again and I’m wondering if I should call him. I read Nat’s post about this and wow, I’m so used to waiting for the guy to pursue me, I don’t make the call, but now it looks like I might need to make a move or else it will be over and I like him. This would be me “not doing the same old” but it scares me because I feel the hurt I am feeling already by not hearing from him and thinking it’s over.
In the spirit of not doing the same old and expecting different results, it looks like I’m going to have to do some chasing…that scares me. Part of me wants to just drop it cause I don’t want to be hurt, that’s my norm to do that….ahhhh I hate this. It seems to me like I might always have to chase this guy.
Whatever,
When a guy is really interested, he doesn’t have to plan calling. He dials because he thinks of you and wants to see you again. It’s not a project management in a logistics department to plan a call. I believe he is either not really interested or have someone. Drop him. This looks like something I would have gotten engaged in myself couple years ago. Waiting, analyzing, reading between the lines, chasing, making excuses and more and more excuses. If now the phone calls and planning are excuses, what’s next? Can you imagine? Do you miss drama and anxiety? Protect your heart. I think this guy is no good. I feel you about sense of humor. The ex used to make me laugh a lot. It’s a great quality in the relationship. But you know what, I have a great sense of humor too and I am sure you do too because you love to laugh and admire the quality in people. So enjoy your own sense of humor! I think this guy has a “TROUBLE AHEAD” warning on him all over the place.
Sofia
I just wrote a huge post and lost it, here I go again. He is funny about me, he seems to laugh at my foibles, and what others might see as unpleasant, like if I complain, he says he loves a woman who complains, or when I sent him the you’re a jerk email, he thought how sweet, we had our first fight.
He seems to find me delightful even if I’m complaining, well it was dang hot when we went out a few times and he doesn’t like the heat either.
Anyways, he is sarcastic and I don’t know how much of it he means, but it made me laugh a lot. Not the usual kind of humour, this humour was mostly focused on me. Is it genuine? I don’t know, many times I would say to him, you don’t mean that and he would agree, so I had to keep on my toes with him which was fun and playful, but not sure how it would be later…might become tiring.
Maybe this guy is a huge AC EUM and I don’t see it clearly yet. Has anyone had this kind of guy with this kind of humour where he makes you feel you almost can’t do anything wrong, well at least he admitted to not liking that I was late.
whatever – What do you mean by his humour was mainly focused on you? Like you tend to be the butt of his humour? That could indeed get tiresome quite quickly especially if after a while it stops being done in a light-hearted, complimentary fashion and ends up having a sting in the tail. Sofia has done a long post further down the page in which she mentions watching out for that kind of thing – worth a read.
The feeling I’m getting from what you’ve said so far is that this guy seems fairly dodgy – maybe using humour as some kind of defence mechanism or to stop people getting to know him on any deeper level. That combined with his inability to set up new dates doesn’t sound great to me.
Claire
He would say things like ‘Oh, you’re so adorable’ when I’m complaining, most men hate it and I wonder if he does too and was using humour as a way to deflect his real thoughts.
Anyways, he also seemed to be able to have deeper conversation too. he’s an odd duck and he did tell me that many people don;t get him. He’s of Dutch heritage, if that helps, maybe they have this warped sense of humour.
Well ,either way, I haven’t heard back from him and it’s been a week since our last date. I think he will drive me insane because I can feel my attraction to him and I’m asking myself, why? Is it unconsciously because he’s EUM?
I remember an ex that was on my side at first and always seemed to be there for me emotionally, then later, he turned very critical and he also was very funny.
I guess I have to stay away from this one, I can feel my insides already churning and anger brewing. Not a good thing at the beginning. I just don;t know how to get myself out of that cycle, he’s the first guy in a long time that I liked, actually, he’s the first guy in a long time that hooked me.
Sarcasm is a huge warning sign for me. And if it’s directed at you, it’s that ghastly ‘negging’ that pick up artists use. Humour that is focused on you is NOT ALWAYS FUNNY … it is actually a form of undermining.
Whatever, I think you should leave him be. I agree with the others – he was able to plan three dates; you could try planning the 4th and see if he wants to come along. But really, I’d be more put off by the sarcasm than by the lack of planning.
Ethelreda,
I agree with every word.
To Whatever: I too wrote you a post and then lost it accidentally. My point is the same what Ethelreda and what other people are saying. Sarcasm and too much humor could be his mask to avoid putting himself out there and being genuine. It’s his dating/friend persona maybe, who knows. Yes, it’s a good point. I remember now, that will all that joking and picking I realize now that: 1. I don’t even know who he was (the ex). 2. We avoided any kind of important, deep subject. 3. Anything on a serious, intimate subject was avoided. WOW. More eye-openers for me today. Sarcasm and “funny” times were the drivers of the conversation and our time together. Yes, funny at first and we clicked because I love laughing too and am sarcastic too but learning to restrain it for it does turn to cynicism and undermining others and yourself. But then, when you date someone month after month, and you are still in a dating stage 1 type of conversation and “closeness” by sharing that special trait you both have and nothing else, besides other artificial interests including sex, it’s easy to hang on to that “we share sense of humor and he makes me laugh” and get hooked to it without realizing you are deceiving yourself now that you are becoming so close and you share so “much.” Moreover, the “closer” you get, jokes are becoming more sophisticated (dudes are smart in their ways) and pointed at you to: 1. Find flaws with you and therefore to in advance to deselect you but keep you for now before something better comes alone. 2. To keep you alert and on your toes by competing with his sense of humor for one and secondly making sure you don’t think of yourself too much (the ex actually said that to me when I begged for a compliment – ashamed to admit – and he mentioned two things about my looks, when I asked for more, jokingly, he jokingly said back, “you won’t hear anything more or you will get too proud and think too much of yourself” hahahaha – NOT funny).
Anyway, long post, story short: the overall impression about this guy: RUN AWAY. I sense so many Unavailable vibes. Even forget about the humor part for now. He is not looking forward to seeing you. You are not on his mind. If you were, you would already have the next date with him by now. I am sorry for being a bit tough. I know it’s exciting to date especially such an entertaining and seemingly nice guy, who is ADD and lost in the ability to plan that it’s even hard to make a call. Protect your heart. What Ethelreda and others are saying are our views, objective. We are not you. I understand you are attracted to him. I would be attracted to such a guy too. But now I know better… Take care of you.
Ethelreda
No, I looked up negging, wasn’t entirely sure what it meant, no, he was not negging, I didn’t feel put down, I felt like he found my ‘faults’ ex, complaining cute and though I questioned the validity of that comment, I felt accepted in that moment. He kind of knew how to handle my upset mood and got me laughing, instead of what other men might do, stoically stand by me in contempt or roll their eyes, or use negging techniques, which would make me feel bad about myself. I felt good about myself with him, albeit, I wasn’t sure he meant any of it. I hope this clears things up a bit more. I felt supported, rather than cut down by his humour. Maybe, there is a name for this use of humour (reverse psychology??)
@Whatever and everyone,
Please be careful and pay attention. There ARE reasons to be afraid:
http://www.aphroditeastrology.com/2013/05/what-is-the-game-pick-up-artist.html?m=1
“It’s basically a roller coaster process of “deconstruction” – tearing a woman down (negs), then lifting her up (comfort) and then pouncing when she’s in this confused, weakened state (seduction).”
Contact him once, if no response or he waffles, let it, and him, go.
Noquay
I haven’t contacted him and probably won’t now. I am upset about him and if I do contact him, it would be as friends only, just don’t know if I can do that as I did feel like he hooked me, I hooked me, however you want to say it, but I don’t feel responsible for it, so I say he did it, as I wouldn’t do that to myself.
Whatever,
Maybe instead of ‘chasing’, just reach out and ask him to do something. If it’s mutual back and forth, it’s not chasing, it’s participating. If he doesn’t respond or says no, makes an excuse, then you know it’s not mutual. At that point, I’d back off your effort and based on his response ( it could be positive ), either opt out or leave the ball in his court. I am guilty of always letting the guy chase me. While I still don’t believe I should be the chaser, I think it’s better to try and make it more mutual. Good luck 😉
selkie and thread
I haven’t done anything yet, I feel I am too vulnerable with him, I think I would get hooked in, so I don’t think I could simply ask him out and not attach some more. Sick, I know, I can’t be only friends with men who I am remotely attracted to and who are single. Bugger!
Noquay & Amy, I feel similarly to you both. I have been reading & responding sometimes to BR for 2 years now & Nat’s topics always seem to be so relevant! I separated from my lying cheating husband 2 years ago which brought me to BR. Since then I have had no romances & I feel free & fresh at having spent 2 years just being free of my ex’s controlling, boring, negative ways. Now, there is a man at work who seems very kind & nice. We chat sometimes & send each other txts. But it always seems to be over platonic things, ie: about travel or work. I work on a construction site. I have seen that many men who cheat on their lovely wives just cos they can while they’re away from home. Some men make note of their wives very early in conversation & some don’t mention the wife & kids at all. I of course prefer the former!!! Now, this new guy & I have not discussed his availability & I guess I haven’t mentioned my separated situation. I’m wondering how to get onto this topic? He hasn’t asked me out but has mentioned some social events that I may like, but I find that sometimes I confuse friendliness for romantic interest. I’m also very nervous of being tricked twice after my cheating husbsnd totally pulled the wool over my naieve eyes. Suggestions? I might mention that this work guy lives here in town & does not fly in / fly out like the other men who seem to forget that they have a wife waiting for them at home!!!!
Genki, if he is inviting you to a social event, start with that. Just see how it goes. You might not even like being around him. Have you only texted/chatted with him? Any real in life conversations? Don’t think about a romance for now. Just go out with him and get to know him through social functions. If he wants to be seen with you at a social function, I wouldn’t think he is married. But nowadays . . . I wouldn’t be surprised about anything anymore. Then you will see. Meanwhile, if possible, find out if he is married or not. Not from him. From friends/online research, if you can. Don’t think too far and don’t get nervous. Don’t build yourself up. I understand how you feel though. After such a marriage and a prolonged time being alone, I understand you are nervous and excited.
I mean do any of you ladies have suggestions on how to approach the topic of availability? Also I don’t want to chase because I think that has been a problem of mine in the past. I just want to be clear on whether he is attached or not & want him to know that I’m not attached
Genki
If this dude lives in town, are there mutual friends you could ask without feeling foolish? Coworkers, etc might know if they’re trustworthy. Ask casually about his plans for the weekend/holidays. Ask if he has kids as women are assumed to be children-oriented. Go to some of those events, see if he shows or invite him to join you. Sometimes the wife is active in the community. At some point, if there’s a strong indication of interest, you’re just gonna have to ask up front. In a small town, its fairly easy to find out if there’s a wife, less so if there’s someone out of town or the folks aren’t visible in the community, travel a lot, or are from outta town.
I fully understand the issue of mistaking mere friendliness for something more and as there’s so much overlap between friendly and interested and so much variability among men, it’s damn hard to tell. Some men make innuendos, act as though single, compliment you and it means nothing. My ex husband was a perfect gentleman, never made so much as a pass, yet admitted to being madly in love with me. At some point, before anything pi physical happens, you just have to “woman up” and ask. A word of caution: if a colleague is involved, if things don’t turn out, it gets really hellish really fast and, unless you’re OK with staying alone or find someone better, things stay hellish until you’re in a position to leave the job for good. It affects your job performance, your emotional investment in your career, the whole dynamic at work. The wheels come off big time.
Genki
can you just ask him, do you have children, which leads to are you married? I’m very direct about these things and I usually get the answer, except one guy I was working with on a film set, told me he was divorced, then his wife flew in because someone told her he went on a date, so I found out.
Plus, I sense you are a bit running ahead of yourself. Cool down, slow down, and just go out socially with him. As a friend. And take it slow. :). There is no fire, like Nat says.
Hi Whatever,
“Anyway, he told me he’s bad at planning and phoning. He hasn’t contacted me to go out again and I’m wondering if I should call him.”
Did he forget to call the first three times? Just him MAKING that comment is reason to pause. Because he’s already built in an excuse. If a guy wants to see you, HE WILL. It can’t hurt to check in, but do it with eyes and ears open. No passes for his laziness.
Yeah I was going to say something similar. If a guy wants to see you he’ll find a way. Telling you he’s bad at planning and phoning seems to be giving himself an ‘out’ straight up – that’s a real amber, if not red, flag to me.
I’d be careful of doing too much of the work in the early stages – that’s how you end up with an AC type who’ll take what you’re offering but might not be ‘that into you’. It’s fine to ‘chase’ and make plans once you’re in a relationship though; that’s completely different and yes both of you should be stepping up and doing that.
I agree with Say Something on the “I’m bad at planning/phoning” comment. When I hear that, I think, “you’re basically saying, I have no intention to change this about myself.”
So, if you’re fine to be the phoner/planner in perpetuity with this guy, proceed. If you know that won’t work for you (and I can say it would not for me), I would heed the warning and save yourself time/investment better spent elsewhere. My two cents… It’s always a bummer when someone is a lot of fun but not really grownup enough to be a peer. Double edged sword.
Michelle
You are right, he’s not a peer. I am still steamed up about him, I haven’t heard back from him at all, yet I am still so mad, because he hooked me with his humour, he really did. That doesn’t happen often and I wonder if it’s even a good thing to be hooked by such an EUM. I am taking this back and looking at my father, he was/is EU, I’m guessing that’s the hook. Plus, this guys wife developed cancer while she was with him and died..I am wondering how much stress he caused her, hence the illness. Anyways, I hate him because he hooked me (I allowed myself to be hooked) and then he left the scene!!!
Say Something,
I agree! Its sounds like he trying to manage down her expectations! That person is basically telling you I probably won’t contact you on a regular so be prepared. It’s different if you both call each other equally, but if they just stop altogether, ummm. I think I would back off!
say something
yes, he called the first time and then made a second date with me at the end of the first one, then forgot to call before date #2, I called him the day before to be sure we were still on, then he called after he left (which was sooner than I thought on date 2) and asked for a date the following week, I called him back and then he didn’t get back to me at all! I sent him a goodbye jerk email and then he apologized saying he’s gets lost in his work, he basically told me he’s a workaholic or always has to be doing something (possibly even ADD.
Anyway, he is a funny man and sweet, a partner would need to do most if not all the planning, which might be fine once in a relationship and living together, but it’s tough right now and who knows, this issue might spill into other areas as well. It’s been a while since I actually liked a guy, but I need to ask myself why am I liking a guy who is so obviously making himself unavailable.
@whatever, and this thread; I think its okay if people dont want to talk on the phone; I have some friends that are lousy at it, they just are. In fact the two people I have in mind are my most efficient hard-working friends so maybe its partly that – they’d rather actually see you in real life or just keep working. However, they would never ignore my emails or stand me up etc. So just because someone doesnt want to have a long chat is no excuse for not keeping a date or not letting you know their plans.
Not wanting a long phone chat can be a personality thing that we should respect. Not being prompt and responsive and careful of your time has no excuse.
And if its this bad now, imagine later when you really are with them and have chores to do and responsibilities that they have to take a part of. If you cant even manage to get together on a date, forgeddaboutit!
about the humor; I have thought with some male friends that are always ‘on’ with the humor, that they are strongly EU since they are hiding behind the humor to avoid any real conversation. So thats not good. He makes you feel ‘on’ too and we have discussed on here how that ‘connection’ is intense because they have no boundaries really and make strong connections with everyone. That connection might make you see more than there really is. I would be wary of an overly humorous and sarcastic guy that is trying to always get a rise out of you – yes, it would get tiring. ANd its a front. I know a couple people the do it almost all the time, very very EU men.
I sent him a goodbye jerk email and then he apologized saying he’s gets lost in his work, he basically told me he’s a workaholic or always has to be doing something (possibly even ADD.
Run AWAY
Run AWAY
Run AWAY
No one is that busy. He is not that into you, but lacks the balls to say so, and is happy to amuse himself as long as you’re willing to do all the work.
Now that I’ve read this, I can only reiterate: too many red flags for me. Sarcasm directed at you, blowing hot and cold, busy-busy-busy, excuses.
Retrieve your dignity and go NC. Never apologise, never explain.
Exactly Ethelreda.
Whatever, give this guy a big pass. Sarcasm, always busy, blows hot and cold and excuses. Any time you start getting excuses it’s time to bail.
Don’t call him and if he calls you just tell him you’re no longer interested, don’t tell him why just tell him it’s not working for YOU and leave it at that.
No one likes having their character flaws or bad habits thrown in their face and some people can turn nasty if you give them a tell. This is also busting their boundaries big time.
Don’t go there, it really isn’t worth the fallout.
take him at his word- he gets lost in his work. maybe he would like to see you but is working a lot! so call one more time with a specific request- “want to go to a move friday at 9?” but only if you really want to see a movie. I would take it as if you are just making a friend first, maybe his workaholic ways are a deal breaker for you, but if you like him why not an occasional outing friend to hang out with once in a while?
shano
wish I could be friends with him, I’m too pissed off at him to be friends, plus the dang hook happened, but, i could meet with him and focus on unhooking myself. Maybe, it might be worth it to just unhook myself from him, it will be a job and I haven’t been able to let go yet
My self esteem was so trashed during my marriage like slow trip torture. I honestly have so much work to do. A friend I hadn’t seen for awhile was asking me about how I felt about my marriage ending and then asked whether I had a new relationship. When I kind of laughed he said I had so much going for me, was elegant, very attractive etc so why not? (He also said I had a great figure but he’s French) I felt so shocked and tearful to hear all this showing me that I have so much to process and need to take care of myself-especially to value myself and tap into my strengths. I am learning to live alone and it is difficult and odten exhausting. I know that I don’t have the energy to put into a relationship – it is way too soon. And I have to understand why I settled for so little when I deserved so much more
espresso,
Your post almost made me cry. I recognize myself in your words. Even though the relationship with the ex was barely under a year, not a long-term marriage, but I feel that my self-esteem is shattered. Yes. The readers of BR might be surprised to hear it from me. I might sound like I have it together. And I think I do. I have learned so much, about my boundaries, I have my values identified and nourished, I know what I want, and overall I feel quite firm on the ground. But I do realize now that my psyche is somehow . . . damaged. Or maybe I am just still healing. I am not sure if it’s my self-esteem or what else. When you said that you felt so touched when the French guy told you the compliments and that you deserve the best, I felt like crying, because several people told me this before and after the relationship. That I am beautiful and smart and deserve the best. Somehow, before the relationship I took it normally and like it was given. Now, if I hear it, even from a woman, I feel like crying because it touches me so deeply. Like any kind of kindness is so overwhelming that I want to cry and am emotional about it… There is so much hurt and heaviness still inside me. It’s like something broke. But I would like to think it’s repairable. I would like not to fear that I can’t trust again. I have always been a very open and trusting person (BR language – no boundaries and people pleaser). I have never felt like this before after any relationship. But yet before that relationship I had never been treated with a condescending attitude, “innocent” jokes, putdowns, criticism, and downplaying my interests and needs. Perhaps all of that added up, slowly, drip by drip, and damaged my self-esteem by the time he was out. I thought about it the other day, that no wonder it takes me so long to recover from that relationship. No man ever treated me like this. I never felt like something was wrong with me. With any man. Quite scary what these subtleties and jokes and witty putdowns and sarcasm can do to you. Those of you, ladies, who are dating now, please pay attention to jokes and sarcasm. I have a good sense of humor and surely laughed it off back then. What I failed to do is to listen to my gut when it became uncomfortable and his humor although funny in general, violated my boundaries when pointed at me. So I continued laughing on until I found myself crying . . . There comes a line between innocent jokes and verbal abuse. I am starting to realize the factors that contributed to eroding my self-esteem. Scary stuff, really.
While I feel that self-esteem is shattered, I still do and know that I keep working on me. I have been building a happier and content life internally. I have so much work to do still. I need to figure out how to raise my self-esteem. I think it comes from doing actions that make you feel good about yourself. Not just working out, hobbies, projects, healthy eating, etc. Not just affirmations and sayings, but actually doing things that benefit not just yourself but the community as well.
Very interesting post by Nat and I will reread it if I think of dating. I think I am far from ready. Or maybe too ready and my BS detector is so high that dating won’t even happen. I am too cynical about the dating world. Having experienced all the online and off line dating in almost 10 years of being divorced. I am sorry. I truly think I am done. But that’s positively speaking. I look forward to living my life with me. Without the fear.
Genki – a few years ago I’d been asked out to lunch by a very nice chap. Three times, and I was beginning to think that maybe this was someone I’d like to date. But I didn’t know if he was married. Thought hard about how I might find out.
Then I came up with a brainwave. Next time I saw him, I asked “Are you married?”
YES!!!! Love it!
I’m exactly 30 days no contact today with my AC EUM. I did get a text message from a mutual friend (her bf is his best friend) just saying “thinking of you” …. I never replied as she had been in the big middle of starting loads of drama. I was a hard step to take but I feel like either way it’s feeding information about me and I am just staying off the grid. Including FB. I went off a few weeks ago after I noticed the AC friended a guy that I had friended. Very creepy. Within hours of seeing we were now friends. It’s liberating and scary at the same time and I have to say I am SOMEWHAT enjoying being really single for the first time in years. No drama, no heartache, no fighting, no waiting for phone calls (he loved calling me whenever he could at first and then at the end was saying he didn’t like talking on the phone and that he had never talked to anyone as much as he talked to me… err why did you call then?). No more of him setting me up and promising we would meet (which involved ME driving to him) and then cancelling on me at the last second. No more getting selfies from him where I know he is at a hotel (meeting the other other other side piece?)…. it’s sick and I think day by day I am finally letting go but like many of you I think now the biggest thing I am afraid of is letting someone in and not seeing the flags in front of my face. I am the daughter of a narcissist mother and an EUM father so just a hot mess of dysfunctional family baggage and I think that I THOUGHT I was confident but in essence I was just waiting for some big huge ROMANCE to enter into my life and I was blind because this guy was that good. He even told me once that when he first saw my pictures on fb he wanted to “*(&^& me stupid.” How romantic. Then he would follow up that he fell in love with me. I have stayed away from any kind of FB stalking to see what he is up to and that has been difficult. But I’m sure I have already been replaced by some members of his harem at this point all the while he is still living his lie with his baby mama. Being the good dad and doing what everyone wants him too. But yes, I have not put myself out into the dating scene. I figure if it happens it happens but I think it will take a good while to process him out of my system and be able to trust myself before I trust someone else. I come to Baggage Reclaim every day to stay strong and read read read.
So, out of the blue, I had this weird self doubt thing thinking back on the EUM I was involved with. I suddenly thought, Holy shit, did I do the “nice guy” thing? As in, I will pretend to be your friend while I am attracted to you in the hopes you will fall for me, thus my friendship is inauthentic and agenda based?
I really struggled with it this morning. And then, I got pissed for even worrying about it. I had to remember: HE kissed me. HE flirted with me. HE tried to sleep with me quickly and wondered why I wanted to wait… I was the one trying to slow it down, figure out what was going on. I had every reason to think we were in a relationship/heading towards one. Even if he claims he had “no idea” I had feelings for him. Really? That clueless? Or just unwilling to take responsibility for your behavior, dude? Yeah, that’s the actual problem… Ugh, I hate when my own empathy messes with me sometimes!
Thank you Baggage Reclaim for being a place where we can come back to reality, as needed…
I’ve always been cynical about “one and only” love. I’d like to think it exists, but I have never witnessed it. I know there are sexless marriages, and if neither partner cares about having sex, then sexual fidelity can exist. But I don’t think sexual fidelity exists (happily exists) in long-term relationships if sex is important to either party. I think if you marry, and then won’t accept a partner’s sexual infidelities, then you are destined to be divorced. Whether the cheater is male or female – same rules.
I read Joe Collins blog about Bill Cosby, and Cosby’s infidelities were well known on the set. Collins wrote that wives like Camillah strike a tacit “deal” with themselves, that, as long as the cheater keeps the marriage and family unit as a priority one, and does not bring home any diseases, the wife turns a blind eye. I know Denzel Washington’s wife has said the same thing. And Jada Pinkett Smith.
And the lower profile ACs we deal with hold the same belief, I think. So they are always grooming us to find out how much we are willing to put up with, I think. Who is willing to be their Camillah or Jada. Even without the “prize” of marriage. They want multiple girls and have no intention of committing to one. So they hang around in one woman’s orbit for a while, disappear, then come back weeks later and gauge how happy is she to be with me again? Maybe we can do this part-time lover thing, because that is all I really want.
And ACMM are only casting for the role of side-piece. No use looking for anything more there.
So my view is if one is waiting for the fairytale forever after Prince Charming before one will share her heart, you’re gonna be waiting a long time, because men aren’t providing the fairytale ending. They never did.
For some of us that means we will never share our lives with a man long-term, because it is “fidelity or bust”. For others, they may decide to accept a man who has a lot of the qualities they want, and then turn a blind eye to those qualities they wish he did not have – the Camillah/Jada/Jackie Kennedy way. For others, they may keep tilting at windmills trying to change the bad qualities of the nearly-perfect-guy.
Elgie,
For some of us that means we will never share our lives with a man long-term, because it is “fidelity or bust”.
Your comment makes me sad. People DO put up with infidelity. I don’t think any of NML’s advice tells us to accept cheating as a given. I do believe it happens, OFTEN, but do you really think we need to expect/accept it? I just can’t. I actually told BGE (in the aftermath), that for me it was all or nothing. He picked nothing.
Maybe having that ‘you’re great but I NEED to be screwing other people so STFU or you can leave’ characteristic means they’re NOT admirable people. Good and wonderful doesn’t quit. Good and wonderful doesn’t screw other people.
I think, what you’ve written though, touches on a fear. Even if I won’t put up with it, no matter what, no matter what he says and does, no matter how much I do everything ‘right’ and put in all good effort, there is ALWAYS someone else ‘better’ and I will inevitably have… Nothing.
Say Something,
“no matter how much I do everything ‘right’ and put in all good effort, there is ALWAYS someone else ‘better’ and I will inevitably have… Nothing.”
That’s how I think too. However, I am learning to associate “Nothing” with living an authentic life, with my values and standards. If I don’t have a man, I don’t feel I have Nothing. I have my life. Is it meaningless without a man?
We need to conquer the fear of being alone. What is the underlying fear of being alone? I am not asking just you. I am asking myself. I am working through my fear and toward acceptance and agreement with my life how it is turning out to be. My personal life that is. It has not worked out. It might. It might not. What am I to do? Live the rest of my life feeling that I am a loser, envying couples and marriages, secretly pining for the One? No. I refuse to do that. I am looking for the meaningful ways to live. And accept and surrender my fate (the personal part for sure) to God. And that’s it. I tried. Tried my best at the time. I might try again and do my best. And he might cheat on me, he might die, or we might live until we die together. I don’t know. I refuse to give in to my fear: whether staying alone or losing the special someone due to whatever reason. Our fear limits our lives. It holds us hostage. A lot of work to do. I have a lot of anxiety I need to work through. I am reading psychology and spiritual material now and learning and learning to let go of my fears, accept, and surrender what is not under my control anymore. I don’t know what works for others. For me, my faith is helping to conquer my fears. For others, there have to be other strategies: different types of therapy, religion, meditation, other meaning. But we have to learn to conquer our fears. That’s no way to live. I am certainly tired of it and learning to conquer it every day. It is a daily work. “Slow climb,” to borrow Oona’s expression, which is applicable to different types of growth we are all here working on.
“I am learning to associate “Nothing” with living an authentic life, with my values and standards. If I don’t have a man, I don’t feel I have Nothing. I have my life. Is it meaningless without a man?”
Amen. There is so much to live for and do. I love having a decent man in my life, but living life and enjoying it until that happens is vital. It also makes you a better partner when you do find one.
So very very true Sofia and Selkie.
Before I started my new job and met the latest unavailable man I had so many goals and dreams of how I wanted to live my life and all the wonderful things I wanted to do and achieve after ending a 4 year relationship. I even said outright to interested men that I didn’t want any sort of relationship right now. Well, all those goals and dreams went right out the window once I got involved with Unavailable Man and now 2 months since it ended I am looking forward to all the things I want to do with my life.
I truly believe that I can be happy as a single woman, and really can live a more authentic and valued life by spending effort and energy on things that matter, not just wasting my time focusing on finding a man because I’m bored or there is nothing else going on in my life.
I love travelling and want to go back to Nepal, and visit Patagonia, go back to uni and start a whole new career, volunteer and give something back to my local community, spend quality time with family and friends etc etc – stuff that is so much more important to me than finding a man. And if a good man should come along then at least I won’t be afraid to lose him because I know I’ll always have my own happy and fulfilling life to live on my own.
Very wise Poppy!
Say Something, you have captured the meaning of what I said. Except where you used the word “better”.
Men don’t stray because the other woman is “better”. They stray because the other woman is “new”. In a long-term relationship, the one thing we cannot be to our men is “new”.
That’s just the way it is.
It takes a developed maturity to avoid the temptation of “new”. Most people, male and female, just aren’t that mature.
It is said that women stray when a new man gives them the attention they stopped getting at home: a compliment about their looks, or their intelligence, or their capabilities. For men, it may be a more directly physical enticement: a woman who flirts with him or responds to his flirtations.
It’s said that every relationship has boring parts….my fantasy has been that with the right union, there are no boring parts.
Elgie R… I’ve been thinking about this. The EUM I ditched was definitely a “right now” kind of person. Fun at first… and then, it’s like the newness wore off of me (and my patience wore out on him). These guys either don’t know what they want or they DO and they’re short-term thinkers.
Thinking long-term means you know what you want, have goals and see the bigger picture and, when we’re grown up enough to do that, our decisions support it. Thus, jeopardizing a positive relationship that they want for the long haul will take priority over short-term distractions. I think this is an important element – the “rightnowrightnow” mentality (child) versus building something over time (adult).
I re-read my earlier comment and the way I phrased it is confusing: I meant to say that, when we’re thinking long-term, we *won’t* jeopardize a relationship we want to keep by pursuing short-term distractions. 🙂
All,
I’m just so tired. Soooo tired. I feel like I can’t rest. I can’t relax. But also I am just bored and lonely. And I would rather be all by myself than with some d-wad, so I’m NOT seeking out anyone. It’s amazing how fast I went from shiny and new to next. What is it with guys whose interest collapses like this year’s March Madness bracket? Like… we made it to the finals, but he didn’t pick Duke; I did.
Elgie
There are men who don’t cheat, I’ve met many, I had an ex who loved me so totally, he’d never cheat on me. I met men that I dated who had wives who wouldn’t sleep with them and they didn’t cheat, another ex comes to mind, in fact, he said he wished he could, but he didn’t. I think some men have a strong morale code and I’d like to think this is the kind of guy I have dated. I have only had one guy cheat on me, with his ex wife when they signed the divorce papers, I guess it was a kind of parting F**k. I couldn’t stay after that, but I understood that there was nothing with the wife. So, cheating isn’t something I worry about too much with men I date. EU is my biggest battle.
I should correct that, I don’t worry about cheating with men I get into a relationship with, dating is another thing. I have dated men that I suspected were cheaters, or right out told me, so I never developed a relationship with these guys. I also had some male friends like this that I could never be involved with, but even with them, they were mostly serial monogamists, whilst trying to find another.
Michelle,
A lot of these guys will say “I didn’t know” about many things. Or they’ll try to rewrite history. I don’t know about your case, but it’s a lesson learned for me, to stop and reassess why I’m uncomfortable or don’t like smtg a potential partner would say and most importantly DO 🙂 I mean in my case, hands up – all the signs were there, I just didn’t listen to myself and made someone else’s ideas my own. I swear it’s like our brain stops sometimes right?
By the way I read your comment above about many guys being really funny or charming but not nature enough to be a peer. Laughed out loud thinking this is so true … Perhaps next time we need to open our eyes and realise what’s what and stop procrastinating ..and always postponing looking deep into our hearts to see that we already kinda know the truth when wefeel a bit uneasy with a guy once, twice..three times… 🙂
I meant “mature enough” not nature enough ha ha
Hello Noquay & Nutbrownhare
Your humourous & heartfelt guidance is much appreciated! I will be a bit more straightforward I think. its just because of my workplace – about 90% men that u get nervous about getting into too personal discussions. Anyways I think it’s not good to dwell too much, planning logistics & what not, things should happen naturally if anything! Thanks ladies
Thanks also to Sofia & whatever for ur advice. It’s been 2 years since I separated from my husband & I still think about the cruel, inconsiderate, lying, cheating person he was, I’m so glad I finally did separate. But it was like something in me snapped & all of a sudden (after his many lies) I just found I didn’t like him anymore, I was not attracted to him anymore. So finally, after 2 yearsi do feel ready to meet new people, but I do not want to rush into anything, I just want to get to know people & have fun. But I guess I was asking the question about how to query if someone’s attached because I have seen how many times people just seem to omit it from the conversation!! I think I’m just nervous to get hurt again like Nat says.
Genki, it is within your right to just be upfront and ask in a non confronting and honest way. If someone is put off or defensive then I would question why? If someone asked me if I was married, simple, I would just say no. End of, no big deal. Unless they are secretive and act like you asked them their bank account number, then you don’t want them anyway. It’s not a crime to ask. It’s important. It’s having your own back and taking care of you. If they have a problem with that, that would be an indicator of the tone of any future relationship with them in my opinion.
Gen
Just ask. I do it all the time, it’s quite disarming, especially if you do it calmly and casually, they usually tell you the truth in spite of themselves. I had this happen with a boyfriend who my intuition literally told me when this thought came to me ‘he’s acting like he’s sleeping with his wife’. I didn’t believe it for a moment, but I decided to casually ask, ‘Have you slept with your wife lately?” He actually admitted to it. So, just be calm, but ask. Why not try with this new guy, and let us know how it went.
Genki,
You say you are separated. But not divorced? I guess that’s what I’m reading, and if that IS the case, YOU are technically and legally still attached. That makes YOU unavailable. I’m not trying to sound like a jerk, and maybe I missed something. What I DO know is that it takes time to recover and get your life in order. It sounds like you want someone available to YOU, but really, you can’t be avaiable to someone else. Not sure if your definition of getting to know people and having fun is FWB, but if it IS, you WILL end up hurt. To me, ‘separated’ means still married. Please think carefully about what you’re doing and what you want 🙂
Totally unplanned; I was having coffee with some people, ex-EUM drops by, texts his gf, and there I am having coffee with the ex-EUM and his new gf. Probably he was meeting her anyway. So I had to chat and be normal, watch them kiss etc. I was calm and kept a straight face, kept chatting. He will be in my part of town more often due to work in the coming months, he mentioned that a lot, with his new gf listening. The meeting was a coincidence and unplanned but him asking her to come and not even saying ‘oh so and so is coming’ was strange and being secretive (there were other people around as well so its normal to say x is joining us). I don’t know if she knows that there was so much speculation about me and ex-EUM a while ago, and that we were very good friends at the time (and also hooking up, but definitely known to be friends).
He had told me out of the blue once that he would never date a person in my profession – strange because I’m not in one of those socially criticised professions like lawyer or loan shark. So it was a passive aggressive comment from him during the time that he was pursuing me. Of course!! – she is from the same profession as me. I think this is why people like him are problematic – they say things they don’t mean becuase they have hidden agendas. We werent dating, so I think he said that to me to put me in my place and say that its never going to happen. Which I am fine with, I wasn’t chasing him, he was chasing me while telling me he wouldn’t date anyone in my profession – and of course he kept hitting on me even after saying such an empty and silly thing. AND then ends up with someone that is in that profession. This is why we often feel like its about us when it isnt – its not that with her he can overlook her profession and not with me. Its that hes such a tacky foolish man that says things that are coming from his insecurities but manages to make them a put-down of someone else.
[this is just one of the more minor things he said, the other things were still passive aggressive but more openly about me. He could have said ‘I wont date you’ which is authentic but then you have to back it up by being friendly only and having boundaries and he’s not good at clear communication. I think he wants the option open of always doing and getting what he wants. Instead he said ‘I wont date anyone like you’ which is a put-down, and THEN he hit on me and kept hitting on me. Plus we were already friends at the time he said that – so he was a lousy friend, a lousy casual fling, and a lousy brief romantic partner. I think also some of these type of things are so weird, its an insult but its hard to see it as that sometimes. You don’t realize or think its sarcastic. I mean I defintiely thought it was strange but …anyway, eventually I have no regrets. I spent enough time to know who he was and how unsuitable so at least I have no doubts about him. I liked him enough to not bail immediately though I should have. But I think that because of the way we are treated, its difficult to not see it as being about you – because the other person has always tried to let you feel like it is about you. Because they are not authentic and dont own their actions and their intentions – this prolongs the confusion and makes it hurt a lot more since they are ambiguous and will always be so. CHeers BR – I was always afraid of this, and — it was nothing. ]
Suki,
“I think he wants the option open of always doing and getting what he wants. Instead he said ‘I wont date anyone like you’ which is a put-down, and THEN he hit on me and kept hitting on me”
There is nobody else LIKE YOU! WTF kind of comment was that, and you know he meant it negatively, so yep, he’s a douche-canoe. Can’t believe you sat there with the two of them. But your reaction sounds like you not only handled it, but you were able to rise above. Me thinks you shall hear from him again.
@Say Something; I meant when he said ‘someone in your profession’, he didn’t really say the words ‘someone like you’. But the meaning stands. I find the things he says so snide, douche-canoey, ambiguous, seemingly honest but really dishonest… Phew. It is hard to engage with someone like this. I am never sure where things are coming from; the only thing I have thankfully learnt is that everything he does is about him, its not a reflection on me. At least I know that.
I just reread Nats post & a few other things stood out, like the part about enjoying the relationship but not making it the sole reason for ur happiness & spending all ur thoughts on that one person. I don’t like to admit – but I think I can easily be carried away into a person, even when sometimes they did not initially seem my type or I wasn’t impressed by certain things I can sometimes get to the stage where I seem to brush that all to the side. I’m trying to work out why that is & tone my interest down & make everything more realistic rather than fanciful.
I agree with the advice given here – take it slow. Things will reveal themselves – there’s no fire!
I’ve also been astounded by the calibre of the men that seem to have caused us to turn to BR. My story is no different! The final straw was when the husband of my husband’s affair partner turned up at my door, and said “ur husband is having an affair with my wife” I had never met either of them but they all worked together. When these guys turned up in work clothes I thought my husband had a work place accident or something, althought I knew he was up to something but just not the extent of it. But to tell the truth he was always like that, earlier I had found evidence of an interest / addiction to porn & that he like to go out without me or family. He was a controlling jealous type, a really boring, self centred person – I truely wonder what I ever saw I him.
Which brings me to this point – we are not second best, there is not always something newer & shinier it’s just that these men want it all, they like to play games with two (or more) women, they never invest in the relationship anyway. It’s all about them. Even now my ex-husband wants to reconcile – there’s no $&@ing way in the world I would do that but it’s all about him, he has not changed a bit & is still trying to control me by not babysitting our daughter on Saturday nights etc so then I must minimise my social life.
But I do not fear that all men are like this, working in a male dominated industry I see both sides – caring & considerate men and others who look for booty as soon as they get in the plane away from home. There are just different types of men.
I totally agree us women should have a pact & not ever go near a married or attached man. I’m ashamed to say in the past I had unwittingly been tricked into being an other woman simply because I didn’t care enough to ask questions in my younger days if I was not interested in the man. But I would never do that now, opportunities have arisen & I always give these guys a serve telling them how $&@ing lucky they are to have a special wife at home & how they should appreciate how good life is.
Genki,
I agree with you. There are nice, decent, caring, and trustworthy men out there. My immediate 3 co-workers are. My ex-husband was and is with his new family now. Couple other people I know from the church and friends’ marriages. Dedicated, reliable, faithful. Everybody has his/her flaws and strange things, but the bottom line is that there are people who do have the most important values. Integrity. Honesty. Dedication. There are great people out there. Our job is to nourish and heal ourselves, and as a “side-effect”, so to speak, we might meet and will recognize those people and stay away from the opposites instantly. I absolutely have NOT given up on people and men.
I’m attracted to really strong, powerful men, but as their woman, I expect them to refrain from weilding their power over me, and I don’t deal with choppers. I expect my man to be a man and have my back. I’m not interested in sharing myself or my life with someone whose sole mission in life is to make me feel bad about myself because he wants to dominate and control me. It is a sign of weakness, and it is such a turn off…real men don’t do that. Real men treat their women with love, trust, care, and respect, and compassion. How could his putdowns possibily endear me to him? Oh hell no; “That’s NOT cute!”
these strong powerful men, the ones you had been with, were they as you say they ought to be? I have dated what looked like strong powerful men, actually the last one presented this way, but it wasn’t too long before he tried to control me, down to the acceptable volume of voice, even for enthusiasm. He was the most controlling man I had ever met! He was gone, very fast.
Whatever,
No, they didn’t meet my expectations.
Yes Natalie think fear of fear is crippling because it stops me even facing it fully – let alone doing something about it.
Not sure where I am at the moment – my brain is scrambled from being ill again (a flare up) and it is frightening – possibly mostly from the exhaustion? – and I don’t know how long it will last for each time or if it will get worse.
Frightening cos all the expectations I had of what I need to do/ want to do with my time, is taken out of my hands and also because I always feel if I am not doing something towards getting out of the hole – then I will prolong being stuck somewhere I don’t want to be – or worse will start going backwards downhill again.
Its exhausting having to constantly be climbing all the time.
Thing is, these fears stop me actually doing what I need to to get well again – which is to face it fully – relax and accept what is happening and allow myself to get well, do the things I need to do, as part and parcel of climbing out the hole I feel I am in.
Frightened of many things – don’t know where to start – not having a relationship, having a relationship, not being liked or loved, being loved and losing it, not loving myself, not being successful in something in my life, not having children/grandchildren, a family to be around, being a f*** up, feeling pain, not being looked after when I am old or able to look after myself, being unlovable etc…
frightening because the hope dies for a little more for a while… if that makes any sense?
Well what a day! Had one day of sanity (ie not ill and able to fully rest and recouperate) and today finally sacked two linked people from my life – that were really not helping – whom I was umming and rrrrring about acting on my gut instinct.
I did this after finding out one of them was clearly misrepresenting me behind my back to a group of people, in order to set me up to fail in the group completely – and the other knew and encouraged it.
How can you trust someone who is clearly able to betray you in such a way – knowing there were no other witnesses to defend you and that they are known more by the group, more trusted by them and more likely to be listened to? – misrepresenting you at best to others – downright lying about you – at its worse.
I arranged to set up meeting with independent support for myself, to discuss their possible replacement but to at least make sure my voice is to be heard this time – having already worked out exactly what I need to focus on.
I wish I never learned the umming and rrring trait of my gut instinct in my life – I have learned it is everywhere in my life – I am sure it is due to absolute fear of aggressive or negative reaction to my asserting myself, as I have experienced in my whole life – but tonight I feel proud of myself for not buckling completely, as I usually do and feeling like my integrity needs to be overly defended but that I just need to focus on my needs and finding others I can relate to and trust to be around – having set up other support a while ago.
I have directly called out the two people in writing so there can be no mistake about my reasons for withdrawing from their relationship completely and I received one reply not asking what I meant – but completely ignoring it – and refering to their sadness that I felt I needed to leave their team.
How can I become more brave and act on the gut instincts earlier? That would be so much better.
Sorry if this is boring others – but after my extreme experiences, I really need trust and loyalty within my relationships and am working out finally that no matter how grateful I am to know someone – I can’t sacrifice trust and loyalty – and hide behind a pillow hoping it will all be ok and reasonably have a happy ending. And when I mean loyalty – I don’t mean agreement to everything I say – I just mean that people don’t try to people please to others by shafting me because they feel I am vulnerable and they can get away with it.
I wish them all love and sunshine because maybe then they will leave me alone and happy – also it seems to be the real difference between them and the people I get along with really well.
Haha, Don’t be afraid! The experiences can get better, or worse! And after awhile, you will be a happy pet owner living your happy life!
AngelFace, that’s how I have started envisioning myself in about 10+ years. My daughter is off to college, I am in a job I love finally, planning for a retirement in 15+ years more after that and surrounding myself with cute fuzzy cats, the more the merrier. No more fear, no more waiting. Happy and content more than ever. No texts, no smartphone, no struggles. Peace and satisfaction. All of these really require just an acceptance and letting it go. Your control over what you do. You can still try and do things. Meet new friends, men, get a new job, etc. In the long run though you have to be ready to accept that you can do only so much. And surrender with peace. It is a quiet, little sad (because in the long run you DON’T have the ultimate control over your life), positive surrendering that I have begun just now.
Today, I read an article that REALLY helped me refocus my thoughts (see link below). It helped direct me back to a plan that I had thoughtfully written out for my personal and professional life (two part plan-that requires ACTION on my part). I felt some semblance of PEACE. I will take PEACE and a sense of calmness anyway I can get it! So, I also cleaned. A clean house (that even Martha Stewart would be in awe of) brought order to my day. Washing windows and cleaning baseboards seems to ERASE thoughts of anyone of anything else. I suddenly only had time to focus on ME. Priceless. Cleaning can occupy thoughts like a good workout. Did a great workout to. My mind is focused just on ME. For today, I have erased FEAR from my thoughts. I am only focused on NOW and not anything else.
The essence of the article: When you change your FOCUS and beliefs, you will transform your life and SELF (take responsibility for your actions, beliefs and thoughts).
http://blogs.psychcentral.com/relationships/2014/08/transformative-change-five-steps-to-empower-your-mind-to-create-a-new-reality/
Yes. This was a strategy I found that could really help me after crashing about my ex – cleaning self, house, garden.
I found myself sorting out my bookcase the other day after months of watching the dust accumulate and its given me days of energy and joy catching the beautiful shiny wood in the corner of my eye as I go about my business and seeing clear lines of clutter less books and new space that has opened up seemingly from no where.
I think it is something akin with mindfulness – ie it is something you are aware of and able to act on in the flesh and help you feel you CAN achieve.
I know there are men (and women) who don’t cheat – I’m not saying ALL men/women cheat. I am saying that it is highly likely that someone you find attractive will cheat. It is up to you to determine how to react to that cheating. Is it a deal breaker, do you turn a blind eye, or do you try to change it (foolishly, because you cannot change other people).
I think it is blaming the victim to say there should be a “girl code” that only “women” should follow in order to thwart a man’s cheating ways. That’s the kind of thinking that wants to blame women for a man’s cheating, and that is not where the problem lays. Many of you (us) are posting “how LONELY we feel without any connection to a man”…yet, you are ready to blame a lonely woman for deciding that a moment of feeling connected – that is, sleeping with someone else’s beau, is HER fault…. a beau who pursued her and made her feel less lonely for a moment.
The strength lies in accepting that not having a man does not mean you must be lonely. It means finding other ways to feel connected in life. There are lots of lonely men out there, too. They may not be tall or look like an Adonis. But their hearts may be just what you are looking for. Adonis’s tend to be womanizers. Highly successful men tend to be womanizers. Even unsuccessful men can be womanizers…so you got to shop carefully, find someone who is compatible in all the important ways, and take your time.
I was set up on a blind date two years ago, and I could tell the man liked me the moment he saw me. But he had no teeth. He was a friend of a friend, and that friend kept talking up how “nice” Toothless was, but he did not know that I like a pretty set of teeth, so no sale. So I understand the need to be physically attracted. And that does make it all the harder.
I’d like to rephrase this comment, do you mean many of us are ready to blame a lonely woman for deciding that moment of feeling connected, that is, sleeping with someone else’s husband is HER fault. A husband who has pursued her and made her feel less lonely. In my observation it takes two to tango, he wants some sex on the side and she wants attention and to ease lonliness. BOTH are responsible for their individual choices/behavior. I am NOT blaming or being judgmental…observing facts.
I feel that a loss is a loss whether it is a married woman with a cheating husband, a woman with a cheating boyfriend or a woman with a married man.
These woman all believed an illusion – that they were having a relationship with someone and going to have a future with them – even if they knew they were married to someone else.
50% or 1 out of every two of relationships end in divorce in the US so it is not unreasonable to think or believe that many many marriages are not actually happy and may not continue – just as the men or married women feed the people they are grooming for a relationship.
I fear that dividing women into blameless and faulty focuses blame and guilt all in one area – on the women – especially the vulnerable ones – and does not actually take into account it takes two to tango at all as you claim to be interested in – leaving the actual original complete betrayer of trust off the hook completely – who is conveniently not around for justice and never needing to seek help to unravel what is going on – either because they have no conscience or are narcisistic and unable to care or know they’re ego would be seriously harmed should they do so and basically a gutless wonder as I imagine them.
I never went with a married man but I can relate to both the anger and shock of being deceived – by both the married person AND someone having an affair with a married person. I can relate to waking up to the total shock of my own deceit of myself in order to continue living in an illusion relationship by choosing not to see red flags.
When they are caught – from my experience with friends – it is rarely out of the blue for either the married woman OR the woman having an affair – there were warning signs for both – this does not make me feel less compassionate for one or the other – it makes me feel compassion for both and angry at the gutless soul that was stupid enough to deceive them – BOTH and happy to live a lie themselves.
Yes in a perfect world I would advise that no one attaches themselves emotionally to anyone whose trust could be in doubt in any way but it would be unrealistic of me to expect that that should always happen – as you know we don’t live in a perfect world and people get emotionally attached and deceived in ways they are not fully aware of until something really bad happens to them.
Its a hard hard hard world that has no compassion for people that make mistakes. Haven’t you made a mistake before? I know I have made many and will continue to but I never intended to hurt others yet probably invariably could probably have expected to in my life – if I had been fully aware.
There is a whole profession built on the acknowledgement of unaware people for many reasons – emotional abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse in their lives being some of those reasons why they may not be fully aware of the obvious signs you may feel you see – this doesn’t mean all people who experience these things will go on to have an affair but that that reckless and unaware behaviour can be as a result of something else that happened to them elsewhere that is re-occurring due to it being suppressed.
Feel anger at being deceived but why deny someone else their anger at being deceived? What purpose does it serve? Other than to shift responsibility from your lying partner you still want to see as mostly blameless, to a woman you are not in a relationship with and clearly couldn’t care less about. Yes she also deceived herself but did you have flags you choose not to see? You did unless the person deceiving and shortchanging you is a complete master of illusion – which no one is thankfully. I’ve never met a real magician in my life yet – no matter how good they pretend or present they are – you always know – even if it is just a feeling. Putting more blame on the other woman in this situation, is also convenient to stop looking at the flags you yourself refused to acknowledge and used to keep you unaware and living in an illusion also.
Say Something, thanks for your comments, yes I’ve been separated for 2 years but I have not done the divorce yet. The reason is it feels so injust…..he cheats & is totally financially irresponsible, I sort out credit debt after separation & now I still have to organise & pay for divorce because he won’t amicably sign the papers! But I should just fork out for the lawyer to do it to settle it once & for all, I expect that the divorce will give him a clear message that I will never ever reconcile in the way that my words do not. I offered to do it all thru a mediator (cheaper & more amicable) but of course my ex did not agree.
Genki,
Divorce is usually not fair. My ex filed, and it cost me THOUSANDS to protect myself and my future. You will never get exactly what you want, and if he won’t be agree, you have to take legal action and pay for it. You cannot be available for your own self, much less anyone else until you face your situation, deal with it, and finalize it. Give yourself the greatest gift ever and tackle this divorce head-on. Pay the price financially, and save yourself unending misery. You HAVE to complete the divorce first, or you’ll set yourself and possibly others up to crash and burn. Separated = still married. Cut him loose and free yourself!
The Bill Cosby revelations have made me very sad. Because he reminds me of ACMM. They’re cut from the same cloth. Charming predators.
I realize that I always had that nagging gut feel that ACMM does not care for me in any way outside of his own purposes.
And Camillah. The bargains a woman must make with herself to reconcile a man like Bill Cosby. The material comforts – can they always outweigh the emotional hurt? Or maybe she isn’t emotionally hurt because she operates on a different value system? Pragmatism as opposed to romantic fantasy?
I’m sure Bill showed his colors before they got married. Camillah was not the duped wife.
SO sad to know that men just don’t give a shit about women’s hearts. And are proud of it. Feel entitled to take. And these men come in very attractive packages. Not only looks, but in showing character in most ways outside of how they deal with women. Community involvement. Nurturing youth. Well-mannered. Educated. Eloquent. Hard-working.
And they use women like tissues.
I was once drugged by an older man. A jazz musician I used to have platonic conversation with between sets at the local Friday night afterwork jam session. I never led him on, but he obviously had other plans. He drugged my drink while I was at the bar. I went to the ladies room, asked him to watch my drink…felt no fear that anything untoward would happen. When I came back, it seemed like I was being watched by all the guys sitting at the bar. Something said “just sip your drink”. I took one sip, then a second. I got a very heavy-body foggy feeling. Decided to leave the bar and drive home, but Jazzman tried to physically hold me back. I remember pushing him away…he walked me to my car and I remember being in a fog, pushing him away, saying I just wanted to drive home…luckily I was 5 minutes from home. I remember falling across my bed and having a very groggy unsettling sleep that night coupled with a very sour stomach for days.
I hate men I think. They make this world so dangerous for women. They only thing I want from any man now is any guidance he can offer toward my financial independence and freedom.
Elgie have you ever had any good experiences with men? Even just small brief experiences? Like at the checkout or gas station? Not just romantic ones.
I have had some seriously bad ones that make me feel frightened and I have trauma reactions being around men currently which are getting easier – and I use those few small good experiences to give me an earth check when I start to feel all men want to hurt me/they are all the same. That lack of hope is a really really horrible place to be and makes me feel the bas****s who did this to me have won and that I am completely a bad person with no hope or good future coming.
Currently I have taken to keeping my distance but watching men in the groups around me – and some of them are turning into surprisingly nice understanding caring people – even though I’m not convinced I want to get any closer right now – I hope to be able to one day – when I feel more confident to.
I think the irrational fear due to knowing how bad it can really be and how it can hurt me, is stopping me from getting close to all men – good and bad. Irrational because these people are clearly not all the same people – even the bad relationships I have had differed in strength and pain. But I can see how easy it is to feel it will happen again and again and that the ball is all in their courts not ours – only is it? Don’t let the bas****s get you down Elgie – you deserve better. You at least deserve to hope there are good males around – and now know what to look out for and avoid like the plague – especially after what I have read you have been through. If not start with yourself – do you feel you are good? Or your friends? family? And look until you find the ones that genuinely make you feel good – attach yourself to them and grow hope from there….That’s what I am hoping even though I’ll say they are few and far between in my life at the moment possibly because I need the distance at the moment, in order to heal from something that hurt me really deeply.
I can relate, at present I hate all men and have all my life. There is only one man that never hurt me in my life, an elderly gentleman that I was friends with, nothing romantic. He passed and I miss him terribly. He cared for me in a way no one ever has.
Elgie R – I totally agree it’s not the other woman at fault if the man she is with is attached. That is his perogative & responsibility as he is the one who is attached. However, what I really want to avoid is giving a cheating man any satisfaction in tricking two women at once which is why I believe a code of conduct is necessary and I will always undertake my due diligence to ensure the man I choose is not attached.
When my ex husband cheated on me I did have contact with the other woman & she wanted to meet up, I refused, but now I wish I had because it would have saved me a lot of time & I could have gotten rid of my double timing ex earlier.
genki
I disagree, I think it is the women’s fault as well if she pursues a relationship with and attached man. It is unethical in my opinion, and when you hurt another woman, you hurt yourself and all woman kind, not to mention you allow cheating to go on. If women (and I am one of them) step up to the plate for all their sisters, these guys would have to stop doing this and be more ethical about it.
Whatever – why do women have to be responsible for mens behaviour? No one is condoning going with a married person – male or female but why make all women completely responsible for the wellbeing of strangers? – surely it is their own wellbeing they need to be mindful of and work on – exactly like ourselves.
Personally I know that with my trust issues I could not be with someone married – so for my own wellbeing I find married men repulsive – like eating your own sick – and stay away from themn – selfishly for me – not primarily for other people – which is dangerous territory for any people pleaser whether romantically or platonically.
oona
In the bigger picture of humanity, we are responsible for how our actions affect others including the wives of other men we choose to associate ourselves with.
Whatever – in a bigger picture even than yours 😉 if you don’t focus on your own real needs in the right manner for yourself ie with full self esteem – combining both your own healthy personal values with actually living them and listening to yourself with accurate trust – it doesn’t matter what good you attempt do for others exterior to yourself (in humanity) – you will be too knackered/blind to see the wood for the trees reliably.
In the name of humanity, firstly, we are responsible for ourselves – and then, how we affect others/help others exterior to ourselves – to do it the other way round doesn’t make any practical sense for humanity at all and also opens ourselves up to harm/teaching that leads us to rely on the exterior person’s needs above our own – which possibly leads some people into this problem in the first place – not listening to internal instincts/values/needs but listening to others remind you of anything? – rendering us, little use to others in reality and emotionally damaged – no matter what emotive words you use to persuade otherwise.
If we aren’t responsible for ourselves and our own needs first – who else will be and what will not being responsible for ourselves first – attract?
I repeat – focus on yourself, find safe solutions to your needs to build your self esteem and find out what it is that truly makes you feel joy – sustainably – and coincidently? you may suddenly find out how harmonious to others that also is.
Genki You can still effect your due diligence to make sure the man you choose is not attached but unfortunately even this may not completely protect you from a good lier or magician – there are people who have invented whole pasts about themselves and duped many people into relationships at the same time – there are also men who have conveniently forgotten about their girlfriends etc… Sadly you are not guaranteed anything in this life – all you can go on is your gut, your awareness and hope for the best.
This is me in a nutshell. I am and have been afraid my entire life. I have been absent in my entire life. I don’t know who I am, what I want, where I want to go. I am totally effed up. I was married 25 yrs, became divorced 17 yrs ago and have been involved with an assclown for 15. I am 60 years old, my health is shot, I have no self-esteem or self worth. I learned in a therapy session that my mother gave me an emotional message that I DON’T MATTER. I have lived my life that way. When I am in a situation that I don’t like I become invisible in my mind. I go somewhere, I don’t know where but I try to block out what is going on like it really isn’t happening. My life is in shambles, I am an emotional wreck. There are so many pieces of me and I am more afraid than ever. I probably do not have many years ahead of me and I want to enjoy what’s left. WITHOUT BEING AFRAID!
Hopeful
Sounds like you dissociated a lot in your life. Try taking courses/ therapy on getting in touch with your emotions. That’s the missing piece for you. Luckily, you don’t need another person for that, it’s a solo job, with support of course.
I. on the other hand spent many years working through my emotions and have not moved forward in a relationship. I still haven’t managed to get married. Good luck to you.
Thank you whatever and you are right of course. I am going to try keeping a feelings diary. I am on disability and Medicare so I really can’t afford professional help. It will be more of a self-help journey. I need more self awareness and self acceptance. Taking care of my own needs.
@whatever.
“I. on the other hand spent many years working through my emotions and have not moved forward in a relationship.”
If you spend a lot of time working through your emotions, you become an expert at dealing with them. So for instance what you say to Hopeful above is sound.
If you spend a lot of time working through a relationship, you become an expert at relationships, which might lead to marriage. This one is more difficult, because there are two parties involved (with respect to the first if, which depends entirely on you).
Your sentence the one that I quote is equivalent to me to: “I spent a lot of time learning a new language by myself, and I don’t understand why I don’t have a job yet”.
Darling you haven’t applied! ‘Whatever’ happened to the guy you liked? Cold feet?? Do you think you are going to learn to do relationships without being willing to risk getting hurt?
Taking risks can be done reasonably, one can take small ones then increase or decrease according to the feedback that one gets from the other party. It’s the trust system Natalie talks about. Check out her posts. One of them is:
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/youll-learn-to-trust-again-when-you-learn-to-trust-you/
Best, V.
V
Yes, you are right, I am an expert on emotions, but not on relationships, well I have been in many short relationships, but never managed to have a long term one. I am an expert at attracting Mr. Wrongs, mostly EUM.
I never heard back from the guy with the humor, and I decided not to reach out to him either. I am afraid of barking up the wrong tree, he’s so obviously an EUM and I don’t need anymore experience with that type of relationship.
Am I not getting something you are trying to tell me V?? I’m all ears, really.
@whatever.
Yes. Whatever you’re super-acute, why on earth don’t you use this gift in romantic relationships.
What I meant to say is that you have to try. Really. The point of a relationship, any relationship, is more than what it seems. You BOTH get to know yourself better and benefit from what the other person gives you. So it really is a win or win-win situation. You cannot lose there, you can only gain.
So if the guy rejects you, or hurts you (reasonable dynamics) you get a glimpse of your limits, or your strength, or past hurts that were buried together with your vitality.
But you really have to try. No try no life.
If you have had short-term relationships, your goal is to stretch yourself beyond short. If it works, ok; if it doesn’t work you know what mistake not to make next time.
I don’t know if this guy is the wrong tree, but you haven’t tried, that’s why you can’t say if he is. Because, for people who tried, they can tell afterwards what type of tree they were engaged with, and appreciate the positive, and be more careful to avoid the negative the next time.
Best, V.
V
I can’t try if the guy isn’t around. If I chase him and continue to chase him maybe it will work, but not for long if I have to keep doing the chasing.
Many of these short relationships (most 6 months to one year) are the amount of time it takes to get to know someone, so I have tried, but when red flags come up, then you stop and get out and believe me, I have tried harder.
So, it’s not as easy as you say. So, I think part of my acute nature is to see the BS and not go in, like with this guy who has dropped me, why go in if it’s going to be me chasing. Sure, I can contact him, but why? That isn’t going to solve him being a EU.
So, sorry, I’m not getting your message. Yes, you have to try, but you need a willing partner to try.
@whatever.
Sure. It just looked to me like there was some sort of fear barrier to overcome, and I was trying to sort of push you a little bit to get to the other side. I didn’t mean ‘try’ in the sense of you are incompetent, not at all.
So anyway I was wrong about this, and I really hope somebody decent crosses your path. ‘Cause that’s important too.
If you are curious about the approach, I had in mind a book titled ‘Feel the fear and do it anyway’ by Susan Jeffers. Not all gold, but it had some interesting points.
Best, V.
Hi V
I haven’t been afraid to jump into a relationship even against better judgement, that’s why, I need to be careful and NOT jump in when I see the red flags. There are other areas that I need to push past the fear, like with moving for example.
With guys, I haven’t gotten a proposal good enough to stick around and push past the fear. At least not that I could see, doesn’t mean that perhaps some guys were good and I sabotaged.
Anyways, I do need to look at every angle of this problem, so I will watch for that fear barrier you speak of. Thank you, I appreciate you looking at this with me:)
Yes I was going to mention dissacociation also – its a technique we can learn in order to help us survive very painful physical or emotional situations early in life that we continue over into adulthood.
As for inspiration – life can begin at any age – only when you are truly unable to breath is that not a possibility – I like to watch new Judy Dench and maggie smith films for that reason. It may not be common where you are but there is life after 60 and some people spend their entire lives being completely unaware. Best wishes to you.
Ego strength is a poor substitute for self-esteem.
You need a real sense of self to esteem.
Some people allow their egos to get in the way of their healing.
Some people just don’t have the mentality to change, don’t think they need to change, but if they did allow for even just some small changes, they might receive, but they just won’t get out of their own way.
I’m glad I don’t share their lack of awareness.
Men aren’t women.
You cannot think your way out of pain.
What you think is preventing you from finding a companion is a lie. It’s BS. It isn’t the truth, but the lesson is yours to learn.
Some people treat other people the same way they say they don’t want to be treated, but they lack the self-awareness to see it.
Everyone has a dark side.
Izzard
Great points! Thank you.
Hello everyone,
I need help. I want to be emotionally available and not an assclown anymore. After living in fear for so many years I have turned into the person I don’t want to be. I began a casual relationship with a co-worker who probed me on wether I would keep the relationship a secret, which I told him I would. I went against my gut and when he told me he wasn’t sure if he would be okay with dealing with someone from work but I told him I would be okay with it because I wasn’t seeing anyone at the time and we both were interested. I later realized I was not built for that and when I told him I was not able to continue and he told me he could tell. He then reappeared a week later, then two weeks later.
This prompted a lot of back in forth mostly on my part because I was seeking validation from him. My father was absent in my life and I never have had a serious relationship. I was looking to him to choose me but I was acting up in the process. He even told me he didn’t care if I dated other people, and just wanted to have fun at work but that I messed that all up. I was infatuated with this person and instead of being respectful and being self aware and being able to stay strong to my boundaries as well as his I ” keep throwing myself under the same rejection bus.”
He would get annoyed when I would complain about only seeing eachother one a month. I would tell him I want something serious but still stick around. He would get upset because in the beginning I was chasing him and then I fell back. Later on after I expressed that I wasn’t comfortable sleeping with him and going out on dates with other guys he started to ask me to be his girlfriend. WHen he asked me and I told him I would have to think about it he laughed at me. He would say ambigious things like referring to our situation as a grey zone and he likes things on his terms. Once we went out and he called me a tease because I didn’t have sex with him. He then later expressed that he knows all I want is love.
The relationship was a roller coaster ride and I did blow hot and cold. How can I really want a real relationship if I keep looking to someone who doesn’t want one with me and who I have made hate me. Once he told me that he wasn’t dating anyone and when he asked me if I went out on a date I said yes. He then told me if I was interested in dating him I wasn’t able to see him and someone else at the same time even though he does not want a commitment. He told me he didn’t want to confuse me and if I think Mr.Right is out there go ahead and then laughed. It seems like the only time he is interested in me is if he knows that another man may be interested in me.
After that I stopped speaking to him at work and did not respond to his texts, passive aggressive I know. He was upset because I ignored him and we didn’t speak for weeks until he reached out. I told him I just didn’t see the point anymore and neither one of us are happy. He told me he was fulfilled in the situation and ” I gave him new life.” The he told me he would support me in whatever decision I make and he’s there if I ever need him. We were cordial at work and then he comes back a week later trying to get me to hang out with him. He would get mad when I would call him out about how he doesn’t care about me, texts me when he is bored. How he rated us having sex and ” how it wasn’t even a level 5″ (I’m not that sexually experienced.)
I wish I didn’t have to see him because it sparks up these feelings in me. We had a staff event and prior to that we hadn’t spoken in about two weeks. He had told me he was interested in making more memories and I told him we should just leave it at work. The day of the event he text me telling me he wanted to see me. At the event I had one two many drinks and I would up crying to him saying that he doesn’t care about me. I drunk texted him later that night and told him I wanted to see him. We met up the next day talked, he told me he could not give me the commitment I wanted. I expressed to him that I liked him and wanted to date him ( not being self aware.) After that I left it alone and he came back with just random texts. He told me the other day he may be transferring and this would be better for us. I asked him what world was he living in? I told him he plays too many games with me and he doesn’t mean the words that he says. He talks about the future and uses these “hooks” because he knows these are the things I wasn’t in the future. After we had sex once he was commenting on how he doesn’t like to use condoms and when I told him we weren’t in a relationship where we would go without using condoms he said “one day.” He likes to dangle these ideas in front of me.
Brooke; you both sound like very dramatic people. All that talk! all the drama! all the but i love you, but i dont know what i want, you’re new life to me — without even a relationship. This is about a lack of boundaries in my opinion. This is empty talk – one shouldn’t even have it in a real relationship and definitely not in a fake one. You are not distinguishing reality from fantasy – you think this is all real what is happening to you, but mostly its your interpretation and the way you choose to see it.
I really dont know how to tell you to be EA, its not like I’m sure myself! but – neither of you is EA, you’re both dramatic, and you’re both also in some way getting a pay-off from this or you wouldn’t engage.
Also, dont have unprotected sex with this fool.
My suggestion; work your butt off. Start exercising or increase exercising. Join a meet up. Start a painfully detailed but ultimately rewarding craft or DIY around the house. Decide to NOT see him or anyone else for say 6 months – but keep yourself so busy so busy that you cannot think and you cannot talk. We’re all good at doing things, lousy at thinking and talking. If you were both running around to concerts, movies, wine tastings, and fire spinning classes while having these conversations it might be worth it – right now it just sounds so — boring!!! What is the payoff to you?
At least enjoy it. If you’re going to throw yourself at some guy that you know is a fool and probably doesnt like you or doesnt know his elbow from his arse but likes intense going-nowhere conversations – then enjoy that! Embrace it! Become that crazy girl! Why not? Whats wrong with that? I’ve said it before – why do something that makes you miserable and ashamed and do it over and over and over and over. Either dont do it, or enjoy it. Enjoy it.
So – think about why you put yourself in situations that make you miserable. That might help. And think about how to live a fuller life overall. If being with this guy in fantasy drama-land is what you want, good. Go at it! Sit over boring coffees listening to him whine about how you aren’t good enough but he’d have unprotected sex with you if you’re in a relationship in the future. Then go back and call all your girlfriends and go for drinks and tell the bartender and… you get the picture. Enjoy your life. If this guy isn’t contributing to that, do something else. Identifying your emotions is an important step to EA. Also – Natalie has a lot of posts on fantasy relationships, you might want to read those. And on blowing hot and cold.
Brooke,
Big hugs to you lady, keep reading your baggage reclaim!!
Let him do the transfer, you’ll be able to move on without him in your face at work.
The only behaviour you can control is your own and he sounds like a complete ass.
brooke,
He is an assclown and you are very confused. You need to develop boundaries, and get rid of this AC, how dare he rate your sexual encounters. Is this the kind of critical, cruel person you want? You are both immature for sure, but you aren’t cutting him down and he is verbally abusive with you. See a therapist, that will be a better relationship for you right now. Good luck.
BR Community and NML, I’m so glad I found this site. I’ve learned so much about myself and relationships. I’m in the minority here as I am a male reader. Wish there were more stories of men dealing with EUW which would relate to my situation. I think the stories with EU people are the same despite gender, but I do believe that men and women process and react to situations differently.
I have been in an ambiguous “faux-lationship” for just over 3 months. I know, very early on. Anyway, there were red flags everywhere from the beginning; text as primary communication, she’s too busy to spend adequate time together, even saying being a GF is not a priority for her. Flush and go, right? Well, that’s basically what I did. I told her that I didn’t want to be in a relationship where I was not a priority and wanted someone that wanted me. If she really wanted to be with me she would make time. We had a great conversation, and she described how she has thick walls up and needs to do some self-examination to fix her issues. I said that’s great, we should probably “break” while she does that, but I would be open to starting again once she felt ready.
Where the fear comes in is second guessing my decision. She still sends me the empty “I miss you” text messages, but no real effort to get together. Hooks I suppose, but could they be true? It was great in the beginning, but I felt I was getting crumbs, not to mention she said being a GF wasn’t a priority. As I write this, I think that much of my issue is related to my fear of exercising my own boundaries and running people off. That’s a ridiculous fear! If that runs them off, then see ya. However, the low self esteem part of me says in relationships you don’t just jump ship at the first sign of trouble. You help each other. As additional background, I am divorced from a 14year marriage with kids.
I’m a successful executive and rarely quit on anything I aspire to do. I feel like I “quit” on her though. Did I pull “flush” too quickly? People can change if they want to, right? I miss her so much and really wanted us to work through this. Is there any hope that this will turn for the better, or am I in LaLa Land?
Thoughts?
@confused_guy – firstly, welcome to BR and I hope that you become a regular contributor as it is very valuable to hear the male perspective. Secondly – love the term ‘faux-lationship’ – hope you don’t mind if I borrow from time to time.
I understand about not being a ‘quitter’ as I feel like that too. But I do sometimes wonder (with me) if it’s an ego/wanting to win thing. I have to admit that I’m not very good at being rejected and want to ‘win people over’ even if they aren’t worth winning over. It’s almost like the people who ‘don’t’ value me (for whatever reason – often unknown to me) have to be ‘convinced’ of my value.
But that does not make logical sense, does it? Maybe they have their issues, maybe we are just not destined to be friends/partners etc., maybe they can ‘see’ my issues! Who knows? But you can’t force people to want to be with you and that is a hard lesson that I have to keep getting it seems. After all I can reject people too if I choose and obviously do from time to time (just not the ‘right’ ones!).
I think maybe she’s EU (whether consciously or not) and has to work through some stuff before she will be perfect for you. And maybe by giving her some space to do that things will come right in the end. But, in the meantime, you sound like a great guy and I hope that someone worthy comes your way. But I would give her a wide berth at the moment.
Best wishes,
Bellakins xxx
@confused_guy; I agree with Bellakins, give her a wide berth. Either she is honestly evaluating her own availability in which case you respected it, so thats good. Or? I dont like the fact that she texts you esp the empty ‘i miss you’. I find that really game playing and also a bit — juvenile. I think sending ‘i miss you’ texts to someone that you dont intend to move ahead with (at least not right now) is either messing with their mind on purpose, being lazy, keeping options open, poorly managing your own insecurity etc. i can’t imagine telling a guy I was barely seeing for three months that a) I am not interested in being a gf, and b) that I miss him?!!! I try not to use those words unless I am really romantically involved with someone or intend to be – to me using those words without the attendant real emotions and real relationship behind it is an indication that the person lives in fantasy land and has inappropriate boundaries herself.
At the least its silly and immature and like someone that doesnt know their own mind. At the most, its dishonest and manipulative.
Either way you seem to have done the right thing. Dont second guess. And my suggestion is to proceed with caution (if at all) should she get back in touch with anything other than a ‘I’ve sorted my stuff out’ – she has to own that she has changed, she shouldn’t be coming back because she sees you differently etc because it was not about it, but because she has really done some work figured some things out. And if she comes back she should get one chance.
You seem like the sort of person that doesnt want to let someone else down – thats a problem in that it might make you wait for them to fully reject you and she seems too wishy washy to do that. You should know your own boundaries and standards for reasonable behavior. That will make it easier as long as those standards are realistic – then you won’t second guess. If a person doesnt meet your values, then flush, and no second guessing.
[I just saw that you also ‘miss her’ after a three month faux relationship. Thats — in my mind thats too soon, it breeds drama.]
@Bellakins – I have a lot to learn so I plan on continuing to read and contribute. I agree my fear is that this is a “win” thing for me too. In relationships (unlike sports and business) it isn’t, or at least it shouldn’t be, some competition with score-keeping. You can’t convince someone to want to be with you.
I will take your advice to give her a wide berth. Not sure I will go full on NC, but certainly will keep it to a bare minimum. I honestly want to be there for her if I can help in any way. She claimed that my actions really opened her eyes and she needed to do the “self work”. Time will tell….
@Suki – I’m like you, I would only send those types of texts if I meant it and wanted to genuinely do something about it. I fear they are a really bad sign in all of this. I even responded with “then let’s do something about it” to one of them. Nothing happened…
Thank you both for the comments. I appreciate the feedback. I suppose I’m in a “wait and see mode”, but will continue to do what’s best for me and work on my own issues. If it’s meant to be, it will be! It just really sucks!
Thank you ladies for the advice. He has already started talking to another girl at work and she is keeping the relationship a “secret.”
I am so grateful for this site, I just stumbled upon it the other day. I have been in a faux-lationship (Thanks Confused_Guy)for entirely too long. I am currently cutting ties, however our daughters are friends and we attend the same church so I’m trying to maintain the peace. I’m also trying not to beat myself up for not ending it so much sooner. I saw the flags. I recognized he was unavailable. Excuse after excuse, usually around his children, or some other good deed. Thus I waited, because if I chastised him for being a blessing outside himself then I was being selfish (or so I thought). I’d confront him with it and he still agrees with me. Doesn’t argue it or justify it. Which baffles me, If you see all this and agree why are you still here? Because I’m still meeting his emotional need to talk, duh… However, after coming here, reading not only the posts but being encouraged by the strength in all of these responses I don’t need him to be okay with me walking away. If he doesn’t value me now he won’t later, despite his pretty words at the last possible minute. He may be doing what he’s doing so I’ll be the bad guy and end it myself. At this point I’ve realized it doesn’t matter what he’s going thru, what happened in his past, or why. I can understand it, I can even sympathize but that doesn’t mean that I have to receive/accept or settle for it. He doesn’t qualify and that’s enough to flush him. Its so incredibly empowering to realize that I’m worth more. However the very important lesson i’ve learned from this … situation is that you can have boundaries, you can voice them, but you still have to enforce them. Thank you again NML for this incredible resource and for all of the followers for your supportive, empowering and encouraging posts. God bless you!
I’ve been reading this site for about 18 months on/off. It’s been really informative and it’s helped me to determine my core values and things that are important to me when looking for a relationship.
Now I’ve been single for just over 4 years after and 6 year relationship, filled with anxiety for me. At the end of the relationship I figured the reason I felt all this anxiety was due to him not being the right guy for me and the relationship not being right for me. I expected that the next time I met someone special that all of these anxieties and fears wouldn’t arise and it would be plain sailing.
In the 4 years I was single I dated a lot of guys, but they were all unavailables or I wasn’t that interested in them.
Now I’ve just met a guy, who is wide open for a relationship after 3 dates I can see him being special and there’s potential for a relationship. We’ve both said that we feel like we’ve known each other for longer than we actually have. We were messaging for a month before our first date.
Our third ‘date’ ended up spanning 2 days and 2 nights. All of a sudden we were sat on the couch watching a movie and the panic set in. It seemed to arise from the feeling of being comfortable and boom! The anxiety set in for me. Since then I’ve been up and down emotionally like a yo-yo and this is all too familiar a feeling from my previous relationship. I spent 6 years in this state of anxiety. Now I don’t know if this is hangover from my previous relationship or it’s a sign that something isn’t right with this guy??
I really don’t know how to get to the bottom of it. I don’t want to ruin something potentially very special but then if it is my gut saying RUN! then I can’t ignore that either.
I’m at a loss as to where to go from here 🙁 does anyone experience anything similar out there and can you offer any helpful advise?
Thanks!