Over the past few days since I wrote about whether you’re ready to date again, there’s been a flurry of discussion in the comments about people who rely on making last-minute plans under the guise of being ‘spontaneous’ and who, when you try to make plans or call them on their lack of commitment, get all shirty with you.
Here is what spontaneous looks like: You’re dating or in a relationship for a while. You see each other regularly and make plans in advance. Then, one day, they phone up and say, “I just found out that X is doing a gig tonight – do you fancy it?”. Or they say, “Surprise! We’re off to Paris/having a weekend away/eating out tonight”, or give you a gift just because.
Here is not what spontaneous looks like: You’re dating or in a relationship for a while. You only find out what you’re doing on a Friday evening or the day it’s happening. Plans are rarely, if ever, made in advance. And when you try to plan, they’re difficult to pin down. So, in the end, the decision for them to agree to your suggestion is so last minute that they’ve pulled their usual stroke on you again – passive aggression.
Spontaneous also doesn’t look like: You haven’t heard from them for several days, a week, a few weeks, or even months. Then they text, “Hey… hope you’re well. Fancy going out tonight?”. And then, after you spend time together, you don’t hear from them again for several more days, weeks, or months until the next textvite comes through. That’s mind f*ckery. You can be damn sure that spontaneous also doesn’t sound like a call after dark asking whether they can ‘come over’ – that’s a booty call.
Spontaneous: “performed or occurring as a result of a sudden impulse or inclination and without premeditation or external stimulus.” (Oxford Dictionary)
I’m all for seizing the moment. If, however, the only time I hear from you is when you’ve seized the itch in your pants, or your ego needs some pumping, or when you’ve finally decided to get around to thinking of me and considering me in your plans at the last moment, I’d rather take a raincheck.
Sometimes, it’s nice to fly by the seat of your pants. However, the type of person who relies on keeping you on ‘standby’ as an option to avail of and actually expects that, should they choose to spring their plans on you five minutes before, you’ll drop everything is someone who is like the seat of someone’s pants… after a bad day – shady.
It’s like you’re on standby for a flight or a backup generator!
Do you want to be someone’s ‘sudden impulse’, or do you want to be considered?
Would you be happy with someone not thinking ahead, planning, and committing to something as basic as short-term plans?
Like the whole ‘busy’ issue, it’s a question of valuing other people’s time. You can be sure that the person who doesn’t make plans with you assumes you’re on their ‘waiting list’ without something better to do. Often, it’s not a question of what you’ll be doing together; it’s whether you’ll be seeing each other at all.
Much like people who keep emphasising how ‘honest’ or ‘nice’ they are suffer with Those Who Doth Protest Too Much, when someone goes to the trouble of telling you they’re spontaneous, you’re dealing with a Future Avoider with basic commitment issues. If you can’t get them to commit to making short-term plans, may the force be with you for anything bigger.
These people expect you to go with their flow. This control will gnaw at your insides, having you anxious about whether you’ll be ‘picked’ each week. Feck that!
One of my exes wasn’t keen on ‘making plans’, often using the phrase “flying by the seat of my pants.” Most weekends, he’d ‘summon’ me after he’d decided what he wanted to do. Or I’d be subjected to having to listen to him whining about finding an activity that ticked his ‘spontaneous’ boxes. Invariably, 99.9% of the time, it was boring. So I did the smart thing – I went ahead and made my own plans. If I was around and I wanted to go, I’d meet him. But if not, hey ho – you snooze, you lose.
Sadly, I didn’t heed that lesson as he wasn’t my last Mr Unavailable. After being summoned here, there, and everywhere by text, phone, and email, I recognised how devaluing this is.
Being on standby as someone’s last-minute option is like floating around on the coattails of other people’s lives. You have a life of your own!
You are a worthwhile and valuable person deserving of love, care, trust, and respect. Yes, and that means you’re worth thinking ahead about and making plans with.
You will know you’re dealing with someone who isn’t all that spontaneous and who, in fact, has commitment issues when the things they’re spontaneous about aren’t really all that exciting.
It’s also important to consider the bigger picture: If someone rarely plans ahead, leaving things till the last minute isn’t spontaneous; it’s routine. It’s like the person who is so inconsistent that they become consistent at being inconsistent.
Everything is contextual. If you have a healthy, mutual partnering and your partner surprises you periodically, or you both decide to do things on the spur of the moment, that’s spontaneity. It is passive aggression when they’re doing things on their terms and shoehorning you into things one way or the other.
Your whole relationship can’t be one big ‘ole impulse. Part of being available and committed is being able to commit to doing basic things that if you’re not too busy trying to micromanage your intimacy and responsibility levels, you’d take for granted as being part of your relationship and enjoy it.
You are not a ‘standby ticket’. Don’t allow yourself to be a pop-up entertainment centre.
You are better than sitting around waiting to be called up for duty. Believe me when I say you’re also better than being a standby option after they’ve ensured they haven’t got better plans.
You’re someone to be made plans with. You’re also someone that can be surprised and seize the moment but within the context of already having the freedom of a relationship where you can talk about making plans without being shut down.
And that’s the test: Spontaneity cuts both ways. You can be sure you’re with someone who has commitment issues when it’s all on their terms and you can’t be spontaneous and get together on impulse.
Don’t be a passenger in your relationships.
If you’re not comfortable with being dial-a-date, then don’t be. Instead of giving a big explanation or even a small one, say you’ve made other plans. You need to make your own plans anyway! Leaving yourself as an option makes you a passenger, giving people the option of choosing you while you’ve already chosen them. They’ll either meet you in the middle and make plans or beat it. Or they’ll pretend to meet you in the middle and gradually eek it back to the last minute, at which point you bounce them and walk.
Start as you mean to go on. You don’t have time to teach a grown-up to value and prioritise you. Remember, when you don’t allow yourself to be on standby, somebody can’t treat you like an option.
Your thoughts?
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Yep you nailed it Nat. The key is that “spontaneity” should cut both ways. Otherwise you’re just on standby while he calls the shots.
I guess the acid test is – what happens when YOU call him with a last minute invite? With my ex he probably wouldn’t even have answered the phone!
Grace,
With my ex he trained me to never call him and to wait for his call. How sad is that.
My ex MM would be in state of shock!
With my ex – if I spontaneously stopped by – I was given the evil look. I would have loved my ex to have stopped by and surprise me. Never happened.
I am just grateful it’s over – it was so exhausting to deal with such an immature, uncaring, unfeeling, unloving, lying player!!!
I really just have to comment here – the last time the AC contacted me telling me “he missed me, loved me, f**ked up”, we had been broken up for a year and he had dated a girl he hurt me with in High School and an ex during this year. I said to him “so you ready to settle for Aimee?” He said it’s not settling – of course I said I know that, but you don’t. Period, end of story – still broke up and plan on never having contact with him ever again.
We are NOT OPTIONS nor to BE SETTLED FOR ladies and gents – we are special and deserve to be treated as such plus more – remember it and live it!!!
Yup grace,
He’d glady wake me up, interrupt me or whatever but GOD FORBID I wake him up or infringe upon his ‘me time’..oh I’d be in trouble!
I like to call him Mr. Double Standard F78khead.
One time I spontaneously stopped by a bf’s house as I was in the area shopping. He was just getting home and we walked in together. He hit the message machine and the first one was left by his best friend and he was blasting me to pieces. The way it sounded to me, my bf had been complaining about me, I got to hear the whole thing. I had bought a new house and he had helped me do a few things (as did all my friends and family) and apparently the ‘friend’ thought that I should add the bf’s name to the deed ‘because of all the work’ he had done. Yeah right, this was a guy who complained that spending 3 days together constituted living together and he didnt like it. So needless to say I never showed up on his house on the spur of the moment again.
It occured to me as I read this that ‘spontaneous’ generally has pretty positive connotations, and often gets teamed with nice adjectives such as ‘warm-hearted’, ‘generous’, ‘loving’ etc.
Actually spontaneous is a fairly neutral adjective – it depends on what comes after it. Spontaneously buying me a present? Yes please! Spontaneously deciding that you’d rather be with Sarah from the pub? Nein. Once again it all boils down to whether there’s genuine, consistent care and respect behind the actions.
Like ‘witty’, ‘clever’ and ’empathetic’, there are a whole load of personality characteristics that can cause a whole lot of damage in the wrong hands and don’t necessarily mean that someone’s GOOD…
Agreed. Well said; said it better than me.
Thanks 🙂
It also occurred to me after reading some of the comments below that spontaneity is a total luxury item. People can afford to be spontaneous when either a) they’ve got the self-discipline to organise their lives sufficiently so that they have the money/time/clean clothes/planning to do things at a moment’s notice without inconveniencing anyone or b) when they don’t give a monkey’s about their responsibilities to other people or themselves.
It took having a baby to make me realise this – before that I thought that I was spontaneous but I wasn’t, I just didn’t have that much to bother about. Now I can be spontaneous when I’m up, dressed, the baby is dressed, I’ve packed his outdoor clothes and his lunch (ideally without having to go to the shop to get essential items), put his pushchair in the car and I don’t have other responsibilities, work or visits to elderly relatives to make. If I want to be spontaneous without the baby I can do it if I’ve organised a babysitter and am on top of the housework. It’s doable but it didn’t half take some getting used to!
Actual factual responsible spontaneity is harder work than it looks. Floating about with nothing to hold you down is easy, but I’m starting to think that it means that you haven’t got all that much to ground you.
On a marginally-related rant, I have to add that I bloody HATE the term ‘free spirit’.
Now there’s an excuse for never taking responsibility for anything if ever I heard one…
“Cool” is another word that should be on that list of twisted connotations. Mostly it means “Cool, she puts up with everything.” “Uncool” are all those women who bring with them the inconveniences of having standards and values. They are perceived and labelled as “being complicated.”
Well said again, yoghurt. And I agree with you 100% about “free spirit”. 😐
I am dealing with this issue right now. This guy and I have been completely on and off but I had made my feelings for him very clear–telling him point blank. We will see each other as we do share the same friends, then he is all over me then I don’t hear from him for weeks or see him until the next get together.
He is definitely messing with my mind. He is keeping me on the back burner. He is nice enough for me to like him, but big enough of a jerk for me to not want to be around him all the time. He always comes to me when he is not dating someone because he wants to get a little something something. I just realized that I don’t need him and my life was a lot better without him in it. Before I met him there was no crying, worrying, or frustration or trying to figure out what the hell was going on. I have pretty much initiated no contact and stay away from him. I have created a 5 mile buffer between us. I live in a huge city so it will be hard to bump into him. It is time to move on from him and treat him as an ex even though he was not. The same rules apply to all assclowns.
Hi Rachel, if you’ve made your feelings clear and he’s still messing with your head then he’s just a jerk! If he was a “nice guy” then he would say he was sorry for leading you on and stop. DELETE!!
Nat, thanks for this series of posts about dating. About a year ago I was going through my breakup with the indecisive Brit and you and fellow posters were so helpful in confirming that I needed to go NC and just Move On. Well, I spent 2011 single and did a lot of self evaluation and growing.
Finally feeling ready to date, and started internet dating two weeks ago. Within the first weekend I met someone that I clicked with straight away, and we spent a whole week in a lovey-dovey sex haze. It was wonderful. But I know that I was jumping in with both feet, imagining it as a ‘relationship’ while he was just enjoying the whirlwind before he (yes, I know, I know…) goes overseas for the rest of the year for work.
Now the brakes have been put on the whole thing (his choice) and I’m sitting here reading your posts about dating being a discovery phase. It’s so true. A couple of weeks of fun before someone leaves is not enough time to establish a relationship. And now that it’s slowed down, I’m not going to be hanging around waiting for the next date. Thanks for this.
Betty, Betty,
Sex during first week of internet dating is a NO-NO. It can only end one way in a typical male standard. You both enjoying the sex, but him devalueing you for having it! (and thus making it a non-long-term loving relationship with future good possibilities).
Unless you used the internet specifically for sex, you probably messed this one up. It’s Okay, try again!
Sigh. You’re right. I guess I had the subconscious mindset of ‘he’s going away v soon – let’s fast track this’. Trying to not beat myself up about it, and hoping it’s not true that he’s devalued me now. If he weren’t going away, I really think there was potential, because he seems so different to guys I’ve been with in the past. Honest, up front. Glad he slowed things down when he did. Oh well. Either I’ll hear from him again or I won’t. Either way, I will know better from now on.
Um, the whole “I’m going away soon thing” … what movie was it where she is told by the guy she meets that he is going away soon, they have a wonderful week or so, they say tearful goodbyes, she is living her life missing him until … she runs into him at the market, leaning towards some new girl?
What guy, who cares about meeting someone for something solid, is on the internet “dating” a couple of weeks before going away to work for a year?
I’m not saying you got totally played, as in you’ll run into him on the street next week and he’ll avoid eye contact, but how much “love” could be in your sex-haze when he was out searching only a couple weeks before skipping town?
I may be leaving the city I’m in by the end of the summer. I ask myself whether it’s responsible to date when I know I may not be here even that long.
I say this as someone who spent a romance-filled sex week with a handsome Italian prof just days before he went back home. He totally came on to me, and fronted like it was too bad we’d only met just before he was leaving. I bought it (sort of)! We tried keeping up our “soul connection” over Skype for a few weeks afterward, him promising to bring me to Italy … but managing not to pay attention to anything I said to him in the meantime. I figured it out quickly enough.
Hi Betty,
It’s okay! While he is out of town you have plenty of time to get out there and try to date several more good guys.
I put all my eggs in one basket…for a guy that worked out of town. I was faithful to him for 14 months. He didn’t care at all and had several other women/lovers. So, I’ve learned a lot here on BR, and won’t date incorrectly ever again. No time for the pain and for EUMs, etc. Now I am in complete No Contact.
The internet has a lot of predators, and a lot of men who behaved so badly that now their only option is internet dating. Plus, they can/we can hide on profiles and not really present our real person.
So it is best to have several or many dates, don’t jumpin, don’t call them & pursue our internet dates relentlessly… Give it a lot of time so that we can use the dating phase as a discovery phase to really get to know them. Even the few good men on this site need a solid in-person dating phase.
All the above is my opinion, and I hope Happiness and Love for you! I’m making it an effort to go out in public at least once a week, where I can socialize and meet with single men that I do not already know from my core group of friends. Hope it works for me, I am 50 and would really like a husband, who is my lover and companion. I’m lonely but dealing with it best I can.
Take care Betty, and keep learning from Natalie’s articles and the comments we all post! You Deserve Happiness.
“The internet has a lot of predators, and a lot of men who behaved so badly that now their only option is internet dating.”
This really resonated with me…
This is where I believe I got caught out. He (the ex) indicated to me a rather promiscuous and dodgy past on one of our initial dates following a few of my questions…
I always wondered what a good-looking, “smart” and popular man in his early twenties was doing on a dating website. It is quite possible he had ran out of options…
Not to dismiss the whole internet dating thing but beginning to connect the dots on this one…
Thanks, AngelFace. I’m still feeling positive about this year, and I don’t have any hard feelings towards the guy. It was a great wakeup call to myself, to not jump both feet first into a ‘relationship’.
I’m sorry to hear about your long distance heartache – it sounds remarkably similar to how things were with my ex. I met him and had a fling while overseas, then spent the next four years trying to make it into a real relationship, with us backward and forward, and him ‘trying to’ leave his life in Europe and move to Sydney to be with me. So much heartache. Never again!
If things are meant to be, they will flow. And especially thanks to NML and all of you here at BR, I will have my eyes open (most of the time!) b
Totally agree. Just because you’ve been on one date with a guy does not mean you shouldnt accept dates from someone else. It is foolish and a bit premature to cut yourself off from dating other people until you know if it has the potential to go somewhere. I met a guy in the store, struck up a conversation and he asked for my number. He called me 5 days later and planned a date 4 days out. Before that date I met another guy in another store, chatted him up he also ask for my number. I went out with the first guy and come to find out he was separated not divorced as he originally implied. Glad I didnt put all my eggs in his basket and think just because I had a date planned that I shouldnt consider someone else.
I commented on this subject in the last post…
Big sigh…
I should have guessed the assclown tendencies of my exAC at the outset -> when last Valentines Day (before we started seeing each other) he messaged me that afternoon to ask if I wanted to go out for drinks..
which to me equated as ‘I’ve worn out all my other options..it’s Valentines Day and I have no date as of yet…I feel inadequate..maybe Sunset will go out with me’. How romantic…
I didn’t go out with him of course that night as I still had my head screwed on at the time. I was cool with spending Valentines Day on my own.
Many of our initial dates were ‘tag along dates’: a ‘tag along date’ can be defined as a date where your date asks you out to something he’s going to be doing anyway with or without you.
Like I don’t know if I am too demanding (help me out here?) but I don’t know..
He pulled this shit quite frequently too. Like I commented on the last post where it was 8pm, dark outside, I was in bed and he was hitting me up to come to his place to hang out and for sex ‘if I’m lucky’ which would have involved about an hour and a half two hour trip on a bus for me..I almost wouldn’t have minded but it was almost always (except once) his place.
I can safely say that I never felt special or prioritized in that relationship. Also personally…I would not be okay with the person I care about running around after me all the time. I recognize though that he is not me and he didn’t or doesn’t think like me.
I’m over him now but like I’ve stated before -> the dent in my confidence still remains.
Sunset = you’re not too demanding, quite the reverse. This guy phones you up at 8 o’clock at night asking *you* to sit on a bus for an hour and a half to get to where he is?! He has no brassneck, obviously (ignorant fecker) Glad you didn’t go… and you wonder if you are too demanding? Really? His “sponteneity” amounts to making a phone call so you can do the “spontaneous” long bus trip so he can have a shag, basically – that’s what it amounts to – what a selfish brat. Don’t be available for this guy – ever – for anything.
My ex EUM didn’t much do ‘spontaneous’ – oddly. Except that he would spntaneously disappear! He’d do stuff like suggest he come over and make my dinner – a week on Tuesday! He’d say ‘I’ll talk to you soon’. I learned that ‘soon’ could mean next month, maybe – or not, so that I would feel myself boiling with anger when he said ‘soon’ – cos it meant diddly-squat. The more I think about how much of a passenger I was and how he ran the whole thing, I cringe into my boots; I really would be too embarrassed to talk about it now. And re Grace, above, yes, I would never have been able to be ‘spontaneous’ with him. He called all the shots. Never again.
In these types of relationships Fearless it is always on their terms; there’s a real ‘it’s my way or the highway’ mentality…I will see you when I want to/or it’s convenient for me see you, I will call you when I want to/or its convenient for me call you, I will grace you with my feeble technological presence whenever I can be arsed..
Argh and when all of this was happening it ran in the back of my mind it was like ‘this feels like he is using me’..I mean asking your new girlfriend to commute for almost two hours at night to ‘come over’…grrr! Also bear in mind I had made that same commute earlier on that day after returning home from a night with him.
Rant over.
I do think our gut tells us pretty accurately when we are being used. It’s up to us to listen to it and act on it.
xxxx
i also want to say that the relationship was ALWAYS on his terms. i honestly feel i was a disgrace to womanhood. i was pathetic enough to wait on his “get ready and come now” calls nearly every saturday. and when i did go, i was made to wait 30minutes or more, up to an hour for him to arrive to meet me even though he lived 5 minutes away from where we met. . he never made plans with me, lied about being sick and ‘staying’ at home when he realised i had my period and he didnt want to see me for obvious reasons. found out he clearly did go out by his facebook status. anyway im really embarassed by everything and will never stoop this low again. and as you mentioned sunset, he saw me when it was convenient for him which was after 9pm after he’s had dinner, after he had a shower, after he spent time with his family, after he saw his friends, after any of his parents visitors had gone (it was rude for him to leave, as he says), after he had a nap, i was always on the bottom of things. and its great that he spent time with his family, but after knowing him for 2 years, he used the ‘family’ excuse ALL the time. He saw his family every day, he lives with them. i appreciate someone who loves their family, but after 2 years i asked for one measly day that he would spend with me, but he never could.
Do you find that you have the ‘so what are you doing this weekend’ hint hint only to find that they don’t schedule something with you. So irritating.
tired_of_assanova
yes, because they dont care and want to see if they have better options.
Yes, does anyone have a good reply to this type of question? So annoying!
@tired_of_assanova It is irritating. My AC did that too. Sucks having the red carpet treatment. Always nice to be reminded that they want us around but at a distance because we don’t quite make the cut in their minds. Not good enough. When in truth it is THEY who are not good enough for US. Why? Because we are honest individuals who don’t play games. We don’t deal out their bs. @Bunny Blue Here’s a good reply. “Bunch of activities. Sorry can’t talk more gotta run.” I threw in the sorry for politeness’ sake (eye roll). 🙂
“…you’re not too demanding, quite the reverse”
Me and a girlfriend from work were talking just today about men who have flipped the switch on women. The AC somehow gets the woman to believe that they are the “prize” and are the ones to be pursued, etc. AND then dictate how the relationship (if there even is one) will go down.
I look back on my acceptance of this with sheer amazement (I’ve recovered from the shame phase)
metsgirl
yep, im past the shame phase too. Unless i dig really deep, or a comment resonates very deeply, I have forgotten the shame. Ladies, iIt does pass.
Mostly when I look back (which is less and less) I shake my head in amazement and wonder “what was I thinking?!”
I’ts unfathomable that I would let someone treat me that way again. I’ve turned down a few last minute invites recently. They’ll learn. Or not. Not my problem, yay!
fearless and sunset, this happened to me….so called ex wakes me up and calls me at 3am for a booty call. after he attended a birthday party which , by the way he did not invite me to go along and ignored my calls/text messages that night with the excuse that he left his fone in his car. so him being in the city asks if i can ‘drive’ at 3am to his place. i reallly cant believe the nerve of some people. so anyway , he ends up coming to my place because i said no to driving. the point is, i should’ve said no, all together, but by then, i hadnt seen him in over 2 weeks and well i really wanted to see him. stupid me, but i have learnt my lesson and i really feel angry at how i allowed myself to be treated. never again!
Ah, yes, Sunset . . . The phenomenon of the “tag-along” date. I experienced that recently with my younger friend only I didn’t know that it actually had a name. All I knew was that I felt invalidated and invisible.
Back in October, when I was still in contact with this 41-year-old man ( who really seemed to want to spend time with this 58-year-old woman ), he decided – very last minute – that he wanted US to go shopping together for a Hallowe’en costume for him. Turned out that he’d been invited to a Hallowe’en party and needed to get himself organized.
Now, keeping in mind that I haven’t been on a date in actual DECADES, ( recently widowed ) I was open-minded because I just figured that the rules must have changed.
He picked me up and off we went to a Hallowe’en specialty store. He had decided that he wanted to be a Navy Seal and he was most definitely a man on a mission. And there I was, literally tagging along – or perhaps it would be more descriptive to say “following in his wake”. He bolted from aisle to aisle gathering up all of the macho paraphernalia that would complete the “look” he sought while I stood in utter confusion amid the angel wings and tiaras. I can’t remember ever being more miserable. At one point, I was actually near tears because I knew that my deceased husband would NEVER have marginalized me like that. I just didn’t understand . . . at the time. Was it because I was being quiet and reserved amid the sensory barrage of ghouls and goblins ? I felt like I’d been hit square in the face with a week-old flounder ! And “flounder” I did. He ignored me – plain and simple – and when he’d gathered up all of his “toys” – complete with laser-sighted BB gun, he was galvanized to head off to yet another destination . . . with me in tow – trying valiantly to pretend that I was having a good time.
I must say . . . I’d rather spend the balance of my days in the company of a good dog than be subjected to a narcissistic whirlwind like that again.
“I’d rather spend the balance of my days in the company of a good dog than be subjected to *a narcissistic whirlwind* like that again”…
That made me laugh out loud Catherine, that’s exactly what it is. What a loser.
OMG Catherine. Amen and me too….I think someone once said , “the more people I meet, the more I love my dog:-)” Your post perfectly expressed how I often felt in “relationships” and a good part of my marriage. Uggh.
At 52 , after my last “whirlwind” fast forward , LDR with a BF from the past who I DID have fun with but ended up exhausted, disillusioned and confused turned out to be all talk and minimal action at least where a future was concerned, ie., “trying to ” move so we could be together….was never gonna happen; I have essentially accepted that being in a “relationship” is not the be all end all in my life anymore . Wish I had BR back in the day:-) But better late than never to hear what Natalie has to say to us. She is a gift and so is this site.
Best to all Karen
Karen – I couldn’t agree with you more. Natalie and this site is indeed a gift. I’ve come a long way since becoming a reader – and I read it every single day. I’m still a work in progress, but truly truly grateful! Thank you!
Sunset, it’s not demanding to expect them the block out time to take you out to on a date that is solely devoted to spending time with you. In an established relationship where many of these dates have already happened, it’s no big whoop to run errands together, but otherwise – FLUSH!
I totally feel you about being expected to travel – my ex once decided to call me repeatedly at 4am until I picked up because he was drunk and wanted to complain. Cute. So, since we were allegedly working towards a relationship (ahem.) I listened to him and tried to cheer him up. He then begged me to drive over an hour to see him. At 4am. Obviously, I declined. I hung up and thought, “I should never have taken him back. If he needs to see me that badly, he should have made plans.” The most glaring thing to me was, as Grace wisely pointed out, if I’d done the same to him, he probably wouldn’t have picked up. These guys, I tell you, have all the nerve (and none of the decency) in the world!
I made an international flight to see my ex-AC, who then stood me up because he had a last-minute meeting for work. That was the final straw, and I told him to take a flying leap. It was only then he admitted he was separated and not over his ex. To top it off, as it was the Christmas season, I spent the holidays alone in a foreign country. I’m now happily married, and I am SO GLAD I dumped that loser, got my head on straight, and kept my standards high, freeing myself to meet my hubby! No more standing by…I’m centre-stage now!
What a coincidence. This woman (her age makes me feel embarrassed for her for doing such a thing at __ y.o.) that I met this past summer on vacation did the same thing – flew from Los Angeles, CA to Pisa, Italy and took an expensive car service to our final location. She never got to see him; he gave similar excuses. (This was her first time leaving the country too, so that was a lot of wasted money, time & energy.) While I don’t know what the man’s relationship status was, he still had her on standby… literally. 😐
Ladies, I too have had very similar experience. Some readers may remember that a year ago I flew from the UK to the southernmost tip of Argentina (jouney took 26 hours and overall cost of trip was nearly £2,000) to spend 2 weeks with my then partner, who had been out there for nearly 3 months teaching gliding. I finally arrived to find he was not there to meet me, having not bothered to swap flying duties with his friend/”boss” and subsequently having apparently had to land 250 kilometres away. I spent my first 24 hours in Argentina alone! Not content with pulling that poor start on me, he spent the rest of the fortnight behaving in what I now realise was an extremely passive-agressive way. When we arrived back at Heathrow Airport he ran off to cath a bus and I never saw him in person again. He spent a month after we got back virtually ignoring me, then texted me to call him so that he could dump me by phone (not without trying to pull the “let’s be friends” card out to make himself feel like less of a sh!t). Still, I’m grateful for the lessons all this eventually taught me, including *never* accepting the role of being someone else’s option when they feel they’ve got nothing better to do. Pffft!
NEVER and I repeat never travel/move abroad for someone who you know (either consciously or deep down) wouldn’t do the same for you.
I’ve learnt this lesson the very hard way.
Hi Amy
“NEVER and I repeat never travel/move abroad for someone who you know (either consciously or deep down) wouldn’t do the same for you”.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. Trouble is, I had been in what at the time felt like a committed relationship with him for a year before the Argentinian trip, during which he well and truly Future Faked me into believing I was a really important part of his life. So at the point where I booked the flights, I still really believed he WOULD have done the same for me. I found out too late that he was using me as an option and an emotional airbag to help him get over his previous gf (in the end it became painfully obvious he hadn’t). This is why I’m still quite wary of relationships at the moment, a whole year down the line from that disastrous Argentinian trip. He was a very plausible Future Faker, and I fell for it in such a big way that for months after we broke up last February I had no idea who I was any more, or what I wanted to do with my own life! Sheesh – there should be a law against these types…. Happy to say, by the way, that I’m back to self-love, self-respect and self-care these days and doing well on creating a great way of life for myself. The only thing left that’s still a little shaky at the moment, and definitely needs more work, is the self-trust bit. I continue to read, listen, watch and learn, and I am absolutely certain I will get there with that too, though.
Thanks for responding to those comments in the previous post – with this post. Bang on stuff. I was going to comment on it all…
My daughter’s daddy is a non-planner. It is one of the most frustrating traits about him actually. I mean when we were an item, there was no planning, it was always last minute decisions – by him. We lived together, and I would come home from work (he didn’t work) and I would settle in for the night, and suddenly at 9pm he’d decide he needed to go to the pub and did I want to go with. I wouldn’t be ready to leave that moment, and I had to work in the morning. I could never get him to agree to weekend plans either, it was a constant battle.
But where it really set in for me, was he didn’t make ANY plans. He had no goals, he was just drifting through life. I wanted a future, and for that you have to plan and set goals to achieve things. He never did. Still doesn’t.
Now we have a daughter together, and he makes no plans. He has his set ‘access’ days with her. But any other time is always on his ‘whim’. He usually says to me, ‘Oh if I can I will pop out to visit her on the weekend.’ But I never heard from him. Holidays and special occasions are just as frustrating as he always says, “LOL You know I don’t make plans.” He thinks it is charming. It is pathetic. I honestly can’t fathom how he imagines he will continue a relationship with his daughter when she is school age. Children are all about schedules and plans.
Not to mention, he is still winging it in his life as a cover band musician, and never knows when he will have ‘work’ and doesn’t have a steady day job. He has no future goals.
I, on the other hand, am a planner. I can be spontaneous, and it is wonderful when it is real, but most of life has to be planned as I have work, family, friends, life and my 2 yr old child to schedule in my days, weeks and months – years. I have long term goals. This year I am buying a townhouse and setting up a proper home for my kidlet and myself.
If someone I date in the future can’t be bothered to ‘book’ a date in advance with me… why should I bother wasting time on them?
I took myself off of the “stand by” mode (again). My situation may be a bit different than your blog write-up is referring to here, Natalie, but I have been on stand-by for far too long.
The holidays just passed. I spent it with my AC. I had inner hopes that he was finally going to “pop the question”. It didn’t happen. I was so hurt. After 5 long years of ups and downs, on and off, I thought finally he was going to step up to the plate and ask me to spend the rest of our days together. It didn’t happen.
So I initially lost it. I then gathered myself together, removed him from FB, messengers, email and my cell phone. He is history. I am moving onward and upward.
Enough is enough. I AM worth more, MUCH MORE. I have a life to live. I have a future that I want for me. It turns out it does not include him, and I have come to terms with that. I think I knew in the back of my mind that if it didn’t happen that I was going to end it, once and for all. I have done just that. Maybe (deep inside) I had prepared myself for this. It doesn’t seem to hurt as much as I thought it would. It did sting when things didn’t go the way I had hoped, however I think I already known deep down it wasn’t going to play out that way.
I am going to put my energy into me. I am going to focus on me. I am going to let each day come and go and see where the road takes me. I wish him well, I really do. I will walk away with my head held high, and know I gave it all I had. It just wasn’t meant to be.
Yes you are worth much more Soul Seeking. Good for you for drawing a line under this. I speak from experience – in 2004 I got my AC of 10 years, a master of last-minute plans and constant let-downs to propose to me. We (I) planned and booked the wedding, but three months before it was due to happen, he went moody, then cold on me, pulled a disappearing act and backed out without offering an explanation. Totally in keeping with his behaviour whenever we’d planned to do anything from family visits to holidays so I don’t why I was surprised. This was my cue to finally leave him, but I stupidly allowed him to play the ‘friends’ card (relieving his conscience) for two years after that before booting him out of my life once and for all. It was messy and I just wish I’d done it sooner.
All I can say is stick to your decision, you’ve dodged a bullet. It’s taken me 8 years to recover but if I’d made a clean break in the first place I know it wouldn’t have taken so long. BIG WASTE OF TIME.
As someone said on here yesterday, kick him out of your mind and replace him with YOU xxx
Thanks Lizzy for your comment. Funny thing from my ex AC is he is a HUGE planner! Prepares and thinks things through regarding every single thing in his life, of course with the exception of “us”, or “me”.
Funny thing, I just now only realized this after your comment regarding your ex. It was an a “uh-huh moment” for me. Thank you for giving me yet another reason to surrender and let go of my fake relationship.
I too need to surrender my fake relationship. The extent to which I allowed him to stand me up, cancel plans, over sleep, he overslept on my birthday and we did not go out and he never made up for it, he has never even taken me on a real date! But I allowed all this…because of my own EUM ways. I realized we were not a good match and told myself we’re having casual fun BUT I don’t want that. Even in a “casual relationship” I don’t want to be on standby. But you can’t have it both. I can’t want casual but also want top priority. I am giving it up though, as clearly it is NOT what I want. I want a real relationship with someone who has two feet in and wants me ( not just my sex or company and conversation…but wants to know me and spend time with me and actually build something with me). I admit I have to also be ready myself…which is the hardest. Wanting it so badly yet subconsciously behaving counter to that goal. One start is to let fake relationships go in order to make room for something real. I can’t have an EUM side piece (who I get frustrated with because he isn’t courting me like his future wife) while trying to find a legitimate relationship.
My EUM deserves someone in love with him who wants a life with him…and so do I. I think both of us KNOW the other is not “IT”, but we like each other, hence we both dance the EU dance and it’s a waste of time.
Natalie I dont know how you do it! You are so right, if someone consistently never makes plans then they cannot be considered spontaneous. at. all.. I do not care what anyone says, noone likes be treated as on option. A friend was telling me how a guy she was dating only called her at the last minute and she didnt like it. When she mentioned it to her dating mentor (married woman) the mentor told her that she should get over it and if the guy was asking her out at all then he was interested and she should quit being so rigid. What?!
Rachel,
Been there, done that. I know exactly what you’re talking about when you say, you didn’t used to cry and get all agitated and waiting for his call. When I look back 5 months ago, I was doing that. Today, I don’t know how I ever let that man completely control my life. I was in really bad shape emotionally to put up with his assholery. I established No Contact, and I mean thoroughly, not in a half-arsed manner as alot of women do. It was not a test to measure his devotion. I didn’t give 2 hoots anymore. I prayed to God and the Holy Spirit gave me the strength to end it PERMANENTLY. Now, I’m enjoying my life as it is. If I meet someone, “Hooray” and if I don’t it’s still , “Yaaaayyyy”! I’ve been spared possible aggravation.
well done tinkerbell 🙂
This “spontaneity” thing is just how it was for me, Natalie. On one occasion, my ex popped up on Fakebook Chat at around 10 p.m. on a weekday (didn’t even phone!), and persuaded me to “be spontaneous” by hurriedly packing an overnight bag and doing the 35-minute drive over to his place. When I arrived I found he’d had *way* too much to drink and the place reeked of various alchohols, including whisky. It turned out that earlier on he’d had a big blow-up with his ex-wife over child maintenance payments, and she had taken their teenage daughter home with her that evening. Obviously he was feeling all alone and sorry for himself, and needed the old Sex/Ego Stroke/Shoulder To Cry On gig from me. And I jumped straight to it as soon as he clicked his fingers in cyberspace! Absolutely cannot believe it did that!! Looking back now just on this particular sorry episode, never mind the whole relationship, it was so wrong on *so* many levels that it would almost be comic if it wasn’t so sad on both our accounts. So glad I know better now, and can recognise it for what it really was.
radiogirl,
ex also popped up on facebook chat on one occasion at 4am (the reason i was on facebook that late was i was talking to overseas cousins) telling me how horny he was and that he wanted to come over see me. i said no, but yet again the signs were all there. him had as usual gone out clubbing with friends without bothering to invite me as per usual. he also used the ‘be more spontanious’ card numerous times when i did see him on numerous nights. he wanted us to go to a hotel and for us ‘split’ the cost of the hotel. i told him back then, i was fine to stay at a hotel, a classy one, but i wanted it planned and booked (being the cheap skate he was and buying into his ‘i have no money excuse’, yeah right, after he bragged previously on forking $200 on a shirt) i on one occasion, did the booking and planning cos i was stupid. anyway its a sad situation we get ourselves in
We will just have to remember how badly hurt we were by allowing ourselves to be an option for someone else, Jasmine, and learn from it in case that kind of situation ever presents itself again. I’m consciously aware of whether I’m being viewed as an option for people now, even with friends, but hopefully it will eventually become a good habit that I will do automatically without having to think about it.
I have a simple rule for people I am just getting to know – as in, went out on a few dates, had a few conversations, maybe even hooked up with. If you don’t ask me out before Wednesday, I am not available that weekend. The end. It’s ironclad. I don’t need to be mean about it, it’s always “Oh I would love to, but my schedule fills up pretty quickly so I really can’t this weekend”. Usually doing it just once gets the point across – and if not, that tells me all I need to know. If the guy’s that dumb, or that intent on playing dumb…next!
Obviously, the rules relax a bit when it gets more relationshipey and comfortable, but I still like planning my week in advance because I really do have a full life, and I make it very clear. If a guy can’t deal with that, it’s a problem that gets discussed.
I’d much rather spend the entire weekend by myself than with someone who makes me feel alone. There are so many things I can happily do solo – museums, openings, roaming around the city I love taking random photos, learning something new, drawing, reading, making things, going dancing, catching up with my actual friends…the list is endless. And all much more enticing than whatever the half assed last second nonsense thing some dude pathetically attempts to dangle in front of me like a limp carrot. Seriously. Ew.
The rule took some trial and painful error to come up with. That part was not so much fun, but it made my life a million times better.
Now I just need to learn to stop trying to be strictly friendly with people who turn out to be too douchey to date. Sigh.
Power to that rule sister!
I use to be very much like you with the flying solo stuff. The EUM in such a short time kind of f’d it all up for me mentally though. Which is so bizarre, because my flying solo stuff was very spontaneous, I just did what I pleased when I woke up on the weekend. Then he came along sprouting all his spontaneous BS and mewing about how he wanted to spend time with me when I wanted to go get my hair did or how he hated shopping if I wanted to go fluff around the High St looking at random shops and guess what…. I morphed. I stopped doing all of the stuff I like to do so I could be available to whatever spontaneous thing he wanted to do. The funny thing is that the mewing and stuff was all early on in the piece when he was running hot. Later on it was always, just be yourself, go do all the stuff you normally do, just don’t expect me to do it with you, but I expect you to be available for things that I deem worthy to include you in on (but I’ll pick an choose on that as well) basically all on his terms.
Left me not knowing my arse from my elbow and yeah almost a year of NC I’m slowly starting to rediscover my independence and spontaneouty 🙂
“Left me not knowing my arse from my elbow and yeah almost a year of NC I’m slowly starting to rediscover my independence and spontaneouty :)”
Me too, BanannaBubbles, me too. Feels *so* good to rediscover yourself, though, doesn’t it?! I’m beginning to get a real thirst to get out there into the world and explore it some more – what a massive change in my attitude from the poor pathetic creature I’d become reduced to just one year ago…!
MuchMoreBetter: great comment.
Those who know me well, know that I’m not a spontaneous (or “spontaneous”) person by nature. The context is what matters. With ass-wipes (friends or more-than-friends), I can’t be bothered. Honestly, I’d rather stay home & watch my DVR’ed shows that I’ve missed during the work week than sit around waiting for an ass-wipe. I could also be asleep. Don’t ever mess with my sleep time. 😐
I CAN, however, see how these clowns subtlely manipulate situations such that we start falling in line with THEIR expectations & plans & (insert other bullshit here). And some of them aren’t even subtle about it! 😐 Looking back, I now see that The Snake subtlely manipulated me to be “spontaneous” to an extent – not as far out as some of the examples here, but more than enough. Ugh. *shudders* Never again.
I think most adults know when they are being “used” Sadly the digital age seems to lend itself more and more to this behavior. Sometimes the attention can be an ego boost. Ultimately – it gets OLD really OLD. Dating is a challenge and will continue to be if you are not Honest about What you want and how you go about getting it.
“I think most adults know when they are being “used””
Agreed.
I have had two men in a year tell me after I questioned why things were changing in pattern things like” spontanaiety works for me” “i dont like to be slotted in on certain days” (after seeing EVERY wed for about 9 months) and it hurts to know its code for ” I want to see what else may come along” or “you aren’t worth the planning”
Big Hug (( )) to you Katy, my heart broke for you when I read your post. I hope you kicked both of them to the curb where they belong. You deserve better.
Thank you , I wish I had been able to kick to curb but asking to commit to even the next week was like cockroaches disappearing when you turn on the light! They pretty much took off before I could do anything
katy, my sympathaties to you. My EUM was the same. i would send a text days prior asking if he wanted to go for a dinner/movie on the weekend and to let me know so i can plan something……would’nt hear from him at all.. come saturday night he would text me, completing ignoring my initial message and of course he would text me too late to fit in dinner or a movie..
This is happening to me now…I met a guy who swept me off my feet for 6 weeks, spent christmas with me, my birthday and new year and then shazam…nothing! He’ll text me every now again and suggest we meet for a coffee but doesn’t actually commit to a date to meet for a coffee…talk about being on standby!
Then I get my ex..Mr Unavailable texting me cause he has recently split with his new girlfriend, the new girlfriend he felt he could commit to and yet he was never able to commit to me..!
These guys really do mess with your head. Ready to date again?…think I’d rather stay single and sane
LOL Sarah, I know exactly how you feel. When you have azzclowns coming at your from all directions you’d just rather not deal with any of it. Wrong thread but at this point, I’m ‘single and sane’, really I cannot even deal with any EU/AC behavior at this moment.
Natalie,
I wish I would have had this information 14 months ago at start of my last relationship. I would have used all this info as a guidline and establish appropriate boundaries regarding these issues. The course of that relationship would have run differently – and in my favor. I’m sure it would have still ended, but it would have ended a lot quicker and with me leaving dust in his face as I happily sprinted off.
Live & Learn, and I will apply these to my next relationship!
Oh yes, had this done to me. Well, did it to myself, really.
Got messaged on a dating site, received an immediate invitation (over text) to dinner later that evening, spent the night together. Hear nothing for a few days so I (you guessed it) text with an offer to meet up again. Get a reply that blows me off until a week and a half later when the other person will “look at” their schedule. They are soooo busy this whole time, too, I see them on the dating site listed as online of course.
The appointed day of hope arrives, I text again and also message on the site. Finally get an answer back that they already have something planned (wow, I wonder how far ahead that was organized…) but gosh, wouldn’t they just love to contact me later on if *they* are interested in doing something.
I respond with an “okay”. And with a block on the site and my phone.
Oh man! You definitely tell it like it is. Especially with the examples of spontaneity!
I feel completely disrespected when a guy doesn’t come in contact for weeks, and then all of a sudden, he texts you with A LAST MINUTE OPPORTUNITY. And of course, if we’re in a desperate, vulnerable, or lonely place, the temptation will be to say, “Yes!”. Just like you said, this kind of interaction is the definition of a booty call.
So, um. No thank you. We HAVE to respect ourselves more than that.
If I don’t respect myself first, no man will.
Best wishes,
Zabrinah
[your everyday girl, writing about guys]
Zabrinah
“And of course, if we’re in a desperate, vulnerable, or lonely place, the temptation will be to say, “Yes!”.
I am guilty as charged…I let my ex-alcoholic text me after five weeks of “disappearance” asking to see me and dropped everything and ran like hell…right to his house. I was thinking he wanted (finally) to start a relationship with me. Well, we agreed we had a fabulous time hanging out together and then *crickets.* I was stunned at first but then all the pieces fell into place and I realized this is a pattern and I was a last-minute add-on to his Saturday night of watching football and drinking beers. Ouch. I was feeling vulnerable, lonely and desperate to see him since it had been so long. Afterward, I still felt all those things and hurt, embarassment and anger on top of them. Like The Who said, “I won’t get fooled again.”
Oh, the stuff described in this post is just…so wrong. And straight-up lame. Before I took my ex-AC back for the final time, I had previously told him to beat it because of this sort of foolishness. I can remember him texting me wanting to come visit on a Saturday (we lived a little over an hour apart) and I couldn’t see him because I had already made plans with a girlfriend. He had the gall to act put out that I already had plans! When, you ask, did this invitation come in? He texted me on Friday afternoon. HELLO. When he came back begging, he was full of plans of course, but….yeah, they were tickets for The Future Faking Express in the end. Someone who keeps you on standby is being disrespectful and selfish and you’ve got WAY better things to do than fritter your time away waiting for someone like that to summon (Nat, such a perfect term!) you to stroke their ego or anything else. If they snooze, they lose!
Yes, I agree Natalie! Best to take a Rain check! You know, like, I’d rather wash my hair, polish my nails, read the baggage reclaims comments, do something fun and positive for MOI myself, etc…lol… HE IS NOT THAT SPECIAL, OK!! Don’t let HIM even think about getting an opportunity to screw you over( literally/figuratively) just cut him and his so called “topnotch relationship” off via text mssg, lol :-),:-),:-),!!
Chigirl123 lol 🙂
@Jasmine
I’d figured we’d all like to cut them off via TEXT MSGGS,lol we can just beat them to the punchline this time around,lol!!! Can’t believe how a guy will try/make a woman their last option (as if they have so many women to choose from),a lot of NERVE!!
Love this post. I feel as if I have been on standby for the last 15 years. With my ex-husband, it was I’m just going to run out to (wherever) I’ll be back in ten minutes. Three hours later I was still waiting for him to show up. In the beginning I never accepted that behavior but after a crippling accident and our world turning upside down I started accepting more and more of what I never would before out of pity and exhaustion. Turns out his absences were largely caused by drugs and gambling. I met my ex-BF before I was divorced (I actually knew him from Kindergarten) and even though I struggled with my own morals over that I will never cease to be grateful to him for making me open my eyes and look at the life I was living and how far down I had come and what I was raising my daughter with. Things were great for a year and then the disappearing started but since we were long distance it wasn’t like I could go out and find him. If he didn’t answer that was it. So I would wait and wait never realizing how low my self-esteem had gotten over the years and how much I was devaluing myself and still going back for more. He even tried to break up with me because as it turns out the disappearances were due to, you guessed it, drugs and another woman. I must have some serious thing about men who use drugs. I never knew and never guessed and he knew that was a huge no no for me because of the ex. Of course I let him break up with me and accepted the “friend” status because I couldn’t face a life without him. But things came to a head over New Years and he said we were going no contact and I was relieved and have felt so much lighter. He contacted me a few days ago and against my better judgment I responded and made clear that this time I won’t accept anything less than a drug-free, respectful, responsible man and unless he becomes that man he should not contact me any more. I think that he won’t, but I could be wrong. But I am so tired of waiting around for someone to show up or change or be involved and I am rediscovering that woman who used to say No, I won’t do this. I love reading everyone’s stories because I know I’m not alone.
This happened to me around the Xmas holidays and I handled it perfectly. An EUM that I like lightly dated and dumped (due to selfish flakey behaviors listed on this post) rang me up out of the blue around 7:30pm the night I was taking myself on a date to drink bubbly at a club opening.
He – Hey! I’m going to a blahblahblah.
Me – good for you.
He – what are you up to?
Me – going to drink bubbly and mingle.
He – I’m going to blahblahblah
Me -Good for you have fun.
He – Do you wanna go?
Me -Nope. I’m going out.
He – You sure you don’t wanna go?
Me – Thanks, nope. Hey, next time call in advance. I’m quite busy these days
He – Yeh well… thought you might want to go cause I’m going out of town
Me – Naw. Hey, I’ve gotta get going.
He – Guess I won’t see you for 4 months, then.
Me – Have fun! Bye.
That’s how you do it. The don’t want committment or to treat women with simple human decency yet they fear being alone.
Its not about them its about YOU always chose you first!
thanks flower white, your dialogue will come quite handy in dealing with other EUM. god forbid.
Thanks Jasmine, be firm and put yourself first!
flower white
well done!
wow, he really does think he’s all that.
@grace…he’s of he monied class and is pure EUM with lovely ladies throwing themselves at him of course he rejects them. I have no time fo that nonsense.
YEP! That’s the way to do it. 😉
Thanks Spinster yes that’s the way to do it, firm and in control. Most men hate when a women turns them down. I love putting myself first and I also enjoy mentoring younger ladies to do the same.
@Flower White…
I love how you handle that conversation, you stayed focused on your plans and did not even allow him to persuade you otherwise. Good example, he should learn to plan better…he acted as if you were just sitting there bored waiting for him to grace you with his call/attention/opportunity to just hangout with him-I THINK NOT!! Good Job! you have plans and your world definitely doesn’t revolve around his vague existence!! lol:-)
Thanks Chi!
The secret of all this male stuff is just keeping busy with your life and only allowing loving, considerate people in it.
Natalie, so glad you wrote about this. I’ve been in relationships that evolve quite organically and feel right along the way, and those that are as anxiety-inducing as hell, because you’re not sure what the plan is and when and why it doesn’t feel quite right at whatever point in the courtship. While neither lasted, or I might not be so reliant on this site right now, I think the point is the feeling. Trust it. If it doesn’t feel quite right, it’s because it isn’t. I’m a big talker, because I’ve had a little setback tonight and made contact via text with two different assclowns. Recovered quite quickly because of that I’ll-at-ease feeling: a strong sense of degrading myself. Done. Slipped a bit on a lonely winter night. But the feeling was clear. I think we all have such great instincts. If we could only trust them and then have the courage to live by them. My life’s work!
Hi, I am rather new to your site but I can not tell you how on target you are with each and ever post. I haven’t dated much since my divorce over 6 years ago. AC that he was I went back to him for a couple of years in there. Now on my own free and clear of him and thought that I might be READY. Thought that I could manage a casual relationship unfortunately somewhere along the line it became all on his terms. In the beginning he would call, text and drop in non stop then somewhere hmmm was it directly after we started having sex? He stopped texting and calling a week or two will go by then a call but now text … are you around? This has been going on for nearly 2 months now every couple of weeks out of the blue. Being casual that would have been okay except when I call or text I get lame responses like “if I didn’t have errands tomorrow I could be there with you tonight” Errands? tomorrow? Really? Just what are these ACs thinking? I don’t want to give up but geeeesh!
Londee, boy do they make multiple copies of the same guys for us unfortunately. Mr EUM was big on errands too and even left in the morning of our night at a hotel room because he had to do ‘stuff’….geeeeez and was more than happy to leave me there to ‘enjoy’ the hotel because i had it booked till mid day. yeah, because i really wanted to be left there with my suitcase, no money left for a cab fare cos i paid for the room and didnt feel like taking a train back home with my stuff.
Natalie and ladies,
It just never ceases to amaze me how similar our stories are with these asshats. Thank you for the distinction between authentic spontaneity and AC’ness. The lack of planning (ie consideration) is truly a signal of being on “standby”. I’ll add my story to the chorus while I breathe and cringe. I was so big on what I thought was spontaneity that I wanted to one up him. So, I’d get the phone call that he was free (meaning he lied to his wife) and could be at my place in 30 minutes, “if I was available”. You betcha. I’ll see you and raise you, thought I. What a moron I was. Even if I was covered from head to toe in dirt while gardening, in 30 mins, I’d be sparkly from head to toe, have dinner simmering on the stove, and chocolate dipped strawberries for desert. It got so bad that I’d plan for the non-plan. Oh dear, when you are planning for the non-plan, that’s gotta be rock bottom, right? “Called up for duty”, cracked me up. Sheesh, I can’t believe that was me. I’m not ready to date yet cos I gotta get the PhD first (that comment in your last post was spot on Natalie) but I can hardly wait to try out my new BR skills at some point. I’m pretty comfy being single. My daughter has also finally admitted that she’s been living a lie with the bf for a year in order to please me. Lots-o-stuff.
Runner..smh. I cringed when I read about planning for the non-plan. I am guilty of this, it’s so embarrassing, and you see the full ridiculous nature of it when it is in black and white. It’s so sad….I’d prepare so many times when he said maybe he could come by IF such and such did/did not occur or maybe we could do this or that. There were so many times I’d not go out to wait for his maybe OR be already out and then he’d say he wanted to stop by and I’d rush home smh. We no longer sit by phones literally since we have mobiles…but pretty much I, you and so many others are waiting phone in hand, pocket, purse hoping to be summoned so we can leap to duty smh. How horrible! But I can’t anymore.
Ha! Have you met my ex?! This was him 100%. He couldn’t commit to SQUAT. During the week, sometimes he’d be willing to make plans, providing something “better” didn’t come up (ie. Drinking with the boys). And if it was the weekend, FORGET IT. Friday and Saturday nights were never planned with me and I was never a priority. If I suggested something it was always “maybe, we’ll see” and the only way I would see him on a Friday or Saturday night is if I was willing to meet him afterwards, at all hours of the night! You’re SO right Nat, I’m not here to teach a “grown up” (if that’s what we’re calling him!) how to value and prioritize me! Needless to say, I broke up with him over a year ago 🙂
Tyla, i think we dated the same guy, you describe my situation perfectly..and i did text him when it ended that he is a grown man and that i’m not his teacher to teach him how to respect a woman’. no reply back of course.
Tyla…..I had to go and drink with him. I am starting to be thankful I`m out of there now……
I really liked this post and the way you explained what being spontaneous really means, not the assclowns version. Muchmorebetter, I’m with you and I feel the exact same way, something I didnt put words to. I can enjoy quality time with me, god knows how many times I let the man choose the temp, and have me on puppet strings making last minute plans, the plans were crap. Now I know why I felt so unsettled but at that point, I was still learning.
I never really got any spontaneous stuff or late night booty calls, but I did get:
“You haven’t heard from them for several days, a week, a few weeks, or even months and then a text comes through “Hey…hope you’re well. Fancy going out tonight?” And then after you spend time together, you don’t hear from them again for another several days/weeks/months until the next textvite comes through.”
But it wasn’t “Wanna go out tonite?” It was like, let’s get together for something soon. Then either I never hear from him again (this is what went down the last time I talked to him-a month ago-or we make plans for something (like one or two weeks before said plans), get together, he strings me along via text every week or so….disappears for like 2-3 weeks, rinse, repeat. When I’d call him out about it, he’d say, “oh, you just love giving me a hard time.” And then I just shut up about it and stopped contact because I knew there was nothing to really say after calling him out…either I accept…whatever the hell was going on or not. He didn’t seem to care either way (which was, hello??? a big red flag, duh!!!)
Anyway, I loved clicking through the posts on Passive Agressive behavior…that pretty much draws the lines in the relationship sands, right?
But I was wondering, when are you coming out with that book??!! I have all your books & would love to read that one :))))
How irritating is that!?
They’re not even planning anything, it is like a passive form of future faking. Why don’t they contact you when they’ve actually thought of something rather better than a vague thing?
On the other hand, these guys (and ladies) get off on ambiguity. There are times where I’m not sure we’re dating or this is just a ‘friendly hangout’, in fact there was one time where I rang up someone after we had gone out and I said ‘so, what was that- was that a date or a friends thing’ and the response was like ‘oh, it was a datey hangoutey…’ = PURE AMBUGUITY.
The trick is to make very little or no room for this bullshit. It’s black or it’s white. NO GREY ZONE>
Actually what that is, is their attempt to confirm you are still waiting around in ‘standby’ mode – just in case. They have to keep you on simmer on the stove, to keep you a little warm with hope, just in case they do ever feel like seeing you again.
haha!
actually said that to him once…our relationship simmering on the stove…
over the past 3 years, before I said screw it, i’ve said passive aggressive gems like:
-are you checking in to see if i’m dead yet? or what?
-oh, you’re still alive! good for you…thought you were dead, was gonna send flowers
-when i’m in the market for a booty call, i’ll call ya
-you want me to come over? make sure there’s 1K on the dresser-that’s a discount, btw
-is this a joke? (after asking me out after I had not seen him for a month & a half)
-yeah, i’ll go out with you, as long as you submit to a little psychological profiling
oh there is so much more…
@tired_of_assonova
Yes! Topnotch Assonova’s usually look to dwell & habitually lie within all possible *GREYZONES*!! *AMBIGUITY* is a lifestyle choice- it keeps them in control of every d@mn thing (what are we really doing here-duh? Where are we going- ok, duh again?)?! Ok, so who is rushing in line or breaking down doors to signup for this type of treatment/relationship? What decent women wants that mess?… Hey,can I get some clear cut and dry answers here?! IF NOT, FLUSH that ‘Crapolla’ and his ‘Crapioca’!!
My guy and I have been dating for 2 months and we are exclusive, not had sex yet. Anyways, we talk almost every night and get together on weekends, but he doesn’t really plan anything with me other than we’ll see each other on Friday and Saturday night. OK, he has planned to see a few movies, but that seems to be the extent of it. If we do something, like go out for dinner or do something, it happens after we see each other and decide to do that, but no plans have nbeen made. Even with New Years, he left it to the last minute and lots of things were booked. It seems like nothing is planned other than is he coming to my place or am I going to his. We talked about going away for our first time (sex) before, but now he doesn’t mention that. We both were sick for a couple of weeks and now we are better and I guess I expect him to make plans, but he doesn’t, so we both kind of end up doing it by me saying I’d like to …. I don’t know if I’m expecting too much, but I feel like we are doing the old couple thing, and we aren’t there yet. I think the guy should be planning fun dates for us, and I guess still trying to impress me. Yes, he is wonderful, but am I expecting too much, or is he lazy?
chloe
lazy. even the most useless blokes can get their act together for sex.
grace “even the most useless blokes can get their act together for sex”
hahah good one!
chloe, either he’s gay and not interested in women or lazy and disinterested or just sees you as a friend. , i mean is he showing signs he is sexually attracted to you? it seems like he’s treating you as just a friend and it doesnt look like he is really enthusiastic about you, i smell a rat.
No intimacy = dealbeaker.
Not spending time with you = dealbreaker
Let’s be friends = dealbreaker
Not participating = dealbreaker
After I got involved with my Assclown, everything from that point on fell off a cliff. I’ve done NML’s values worksheet – intimacy (no it’s not just sex) is super important. No intimacy – BOUNCE. I’d recommend don’t be friends with them either – you get a crummy friendship on lesser terms too in my experience.
Absolutely. For some, all you have to do is say the word and they break speed limits (or run instead of walk) and/or shell out shitloads of plane ticket cash to get to their upcoming lay as soon as humanly possible. But this one is dragging his feet with you, his supposed girlfriend, when it comes to getting laid?
*shaking my head* Nope.
Spinster, very true! with all the guys i’ve had dates with..all were eager to get me in the sack and showed their eagerness. especially my mr EUM. i would say that there was that one guy that wasn’t eager, though we made plans to have sex, he backed off after that…and later told me that he just didnt want to have sex with me coz he just didnt like me …though he didnt confront me with it…just acted very blaze towards me, and pretty much something always came up when i tried to see him..he was always busy.
Actually, there are a few no-sex or sex disappears unavailables that will happily downgrade you to ‘friend’, ‘cuddle friend’, or ‘ego stroke friend’.
I’ve had two like this – usually they are seeing someone else (aren’t they always) and don’t want to ‘technically’ cheat on you.
Looking over your comment, he sounds inconsistent & lazy. I’d suggest making your exit sooner rather than later.
Hi Chloe
My current guy is similar, its like the opposite of the whole “treats u like a girlfriend but wont call you his girlfriend” to “will call you his girlfriend but wont treat you like one” – which, by the way, is no better believe me!!
he “””””””spontaneously””””””””””” rings me up whenever the hell HE feels like it… e.g. “ill call you after you finish school” (im a teacher, not a kid by the way lol) … bear in mind i finish school at 3:30…. 10pm rolls round and he texts like “oh hey what you been upto?” waiting for your call, love, but cheers for the CRAPPY TEXT!!!!!!!!!!
and like you chloe, our “plans” are going to his and have a “cuddly night in” pffft!!! im so fed up, he can stick his cuddly nights in (i.e. lets have sex all night) we only been seeing eachother 4/5 weeks! and its like im intolerable and annoying to talk to now…
“i smell a rat” too… xx
I received many texts from the ex about his “plans” for our weekends and Saturday nights together which just said “I fancy a night in with you, cuddling by the log fire” (at his place, naturally, hardly ever at mine after the initial few weeks). Even at the time I sometimes used to think “Why can’t we do something different? Whatever happened to sharing new experiences together?” My parents are in their 80’s, and even though they don’t have much money, they still get out and about together more than he and I used to!! You are right to smell a rat, Groundhog Day. Boring and lazy – FLUSH!
Does he have a girlfriend or someone he is regularly seeing already?
An acquaintance of mine recently got involved with a guy – sex and all – where he’d ring every day and they’d talk for ages etc – yeah, he had a girlfriend.
Then there are people in open relationships and the uncommitted playing their options who ‘think it is OK to play around if there hasn’t been a discussion about commitment yet’. Maybe he’s avoiding the sex because he doesn’t want to ‘technically cheat’ on you.
Watch out!
If he is avoiding sex now it is likely to only get worse. Sounds like he just isn’t into it. Some men aren’t. I’d get out now x
No sex = no relationship.
Trust me, I have asked myself once ‘is it possible for me to have a relationship without sex’ the answer is NO and 99.9% of the time they will be shagging SOMEONE ELSE!!
Don’t go there!
FLUSH!!
I hear ya. To use sex either way is really cruel I think. Whether it’s using someone purely for sex and a last minute option while parading around that it’s more than that, or withholding sex with no explanation when you are supposedly in a commited relationship. Both equally degrading.
The ex-AC, when I noticed the sex slowing, (and this guy would say, “i need sex every night” & “oh I can’t wait to live with you then we can have sex anytime anywhere” yada yada and was very sexual anyway) I told him i noticed and was concerned about it. I asked him if there was someone else. He said no of course, made me out to be the wacko for thinking that, and said things like, “oh i’m just stressed out lately” lies and drip feeding, I caught him later and he said “…that’s when I started to pull away from you…” and he said, “trust me when you’re getting it somewhere else, you still want it at home too.” That last one was from his experience from when he cheated on his wife. Oh like that’s supposed to be a comfort to me, you are an experienced cheater so you know the rules and that’s supposed to make me feel better??? SLUG!!!!! UGH FLUSH FLUSH FLUSH! I have but even him taking up space in my mind is gross!!! Sorry, bit off topic.
Hi,
I appreciate all your feedback. I’m sorry, I think I misrepresented the situation. The guy definately does want to have sex with me, I’m the one who put on the breaks, because I wanted to take it slow, get to know each other, not make the same mistakes of the past. We are into each other too, physically, but of course have a long ways to go still. I was saying that I don’t like that he doesn’t plan, like saying ‘Hi Chloe, can we go out on Friday night. And I say, yes and he tells me what we are doing. He seems to leave it till we get together, or I need to suggest something. We are getting together tomorrow and I asked what are we doing? He said he’ll get the paper to see what’s in town, but he doesn’t know ahead of time. Also, a while back I said it would be nice to go away for our first time (sexually) and he hasn’t made plans yet, as if he changed his mind about going away and I don’t know if I should bring it up again, or just leave it.
@ NCC
I noticed this with a guy I was with. When we first got together it was all ‘sex sex sex sex’ for him, he put an awful lot of pressure on me for intimacy quickly (before I was ready or trusted him), spoke of a high sex drive and it just seemed to be something that was on his mind a lot of the time.
Then after we spent some time apart things changed. He was working but I just noticed a distinct change and lack of enthusiasm. I don’t know if he was cheating (and besides it’s irrelevant now) but I was sensitive to this change in him and his overall attitude towards me: getting angry at me for silly things very quickly, critical over everything, not wanting to talk to me much, grumpy and calling me insecure.
Flush is too right.
I’m embarrassed that I put up with this kind of treatment. My ex called every day and I saw him at least a few times a week, but there was never any planning, just him announcing when he was about to come by. He clearly knows that it’s not respectful behaviour–in the beginning he made plans until he knew I was “in” I suppose, and seems to make plans if it’s work related or with anyone that he can’t get away with treating this way. I’m disappointed in myself for putting up with it, especially since I had a long term relationship with such a great guy before this jerk, someone who treated me with respect and was so thoughtful.
Not that I needed to know each day of the week that we would spend time together in advance (we always just hung out at home anyways) but the lack of consideration was a red flag.
Thanks for your share. What do you mean by ‘in’, is that after sex? Also when you talked everyday, did you not decide when you would get together that week?
@ Catherine
wonderful story, you are a good writer. I agree, a real dog’s company is much better!
Thank you, Chloe . . . I’ve been reading the articles at this Website for about six weeks now.
Good grief . . . it’s as if I’ve struck GOLD.
I just love reading Natalie’s blogs, particularly because they’re so action-oriented. When we’re lost in the fog of trying to navigate our way through a relationship with an assclown, even if said assclown be nothing more than a friend – clear, succinct directions have been much easier for me to understand than theoretical verbiage !
But what has prompted me to begin to actively contribute are everyone’s stories.
It’s just SO gratifying to find a community of like-minded women who are struggling and recovering from these damaging experiences. I guess what I’m really trying to say is that it’s really validating ( that’s a BIG word for me ) to know that I’m not alone.
Nonetheless, it does beg a question. Why are there so MANY men out there like this ? They come in all shapes and sizes . . . and ages, too, it would appear. The sociologist in me is somewhat intrigued now that I’ve safely extricated myself from those Jedi mind tricks !
Thanks again, Chloe . . . and warmest wishes. Let’s never lose sight of the fact that we are a community of very strong women.
Why are there so many EU people? No idea, but maybe they just want a bit of fun and nothing more that that? A clash of values and desires perhaps?
EU`s do it because they can. There are enough people to tolerate their behaviour and even treat them like the sun shines out of their….pedestals we put them on. And yes, people are so different and they want such different things from life. Our job is to accept that there is a difference in values sometimes and just keep going right past what is not for us.
Hello “Tired_Of . . . ” – I love the name you use here, by the way. Just thought I’d give you all a bit of an update on something that transpired today. Put it “out there”, if you will. Run it up the old flagpole to see if anyone will salute !
I received a text ( naturally ) from that younger man with whom I’ve gone NC. It turns out that he’s got a new woman in his cross-hairs and she wants to take him “clubbing” this weekend to celebrate his birthday which is today, if memory serves.
This man has an eleven-year-old daughter who stays with him every other weekend. Are any of us surprised that he’s divorced? Well, as it turns out, this coming weekend ( January 21 and 22 ) is HIS weekend with her. But the gist of the text to ME was asking if I would baby-sit her so that he could bugger off with the “current tart” to go clubbing. And here’s the OUTRAGEOUS part of the request . . . he said that I could stay at HIS place (where his daughter has a bedroom) and sleep overnight in HIS bed. ( While he sleeps overnight somewhere else . . . ) Honest to God, I thought for a moment that I’d fallen into the rabbit hole. Or that I’d unwittingly wandered into a Salvador Dali painting.
As a retired educator and a survivor of wretched child abuse, my first thoughts are always for the children that get caught in the midst of this self-absorption, fundamental immaturity and drama.
But I discovered that something had shifted in my soul this time. For my first reaction was to immediately define a boundary for MY protection. The more that I thought about it, I wondered why his new “flame” hadn’t been sensitive to the fact that this is his weekend with his little girl. Could the proposed “clubbing” not simply have been postponed to NEXT weekend when this child is with her mother ?
Thanks to all of the reading that I’ve done here, I listened to my “gut” which had already started to protest vehemently.
I know for a fact that I’m not his only option with respect to babysitting.
And then I stopped analyzing.
So, I broke NC to text back, “No. I cannot. I am no longer available.” I pushed “Send” and then turned off my iPhone and buried it in a drawer as if it were radioactive.
I still feel somewhat conflicted about the messages he’s imparting to his little girl with respect to her value in his life. But I’m a “retired” educator now . . . with…
Catherine, good job.
The colossal nerve. Just shocking. Left me speechless. What a self-centered cad.
To Tired_of_Assanove, Natalie and Ladies:
“Why are there so many EU people?”
I have been thinking about that question for weeks, and I believe that it is the DISINTIGRATION of the FAMILY that is producing so many EUMs. (and some EUWs)
We no longer have our grandparents living within 10 blocks of our homes, and our cousins don’t live a couple blocks away and attend the same schools, and many of us do not grow-up with both mother and father in same house. I haven’t talked to my cousins, most aunts or uncles, or visited them in over 15 years. My family is scattered all over the US.
This ‘lack of family, their love, interaction & support’ make women lonely, and we are coping through this difficult lifetime on our own. This, for me, has made me almost desperate for the love of a man, and the last one I was involved with for 14 months abused me and I hung in there hoping we would get married. I did not walk away – he was all that I had.
As for the men, they are on their own also. They don’t have good role models of male relatives who are dedicated to their wives and children, parents and extended family. I think our men are wounded by this lack of family-love, and they are not held responsible for bad behavior – by anyone. Because they do not express emotions well, they choose to please themselves physically, shag around without committment and then settle when and only when they can benefit the most from it. (women are typically called Gold diggers, but actually, I know more men who are the Gold diggers).
This is all very sad, and I think global societies will have a difficult time putting the model of the family back into existance, including economical reasons.
So, this is my take on why there are so many EUMs and so many women experiencing EUMs and trying to salvage or create relationships with them.
I’m currently reading the novel High Fidelity, by Nick Hornby. I came accross this paragraph this morning and want to share it with you all:
“When I saw Laura outside the shop I knew absolutely, without any question at all, that I wanted her again. But that’s probably because she’s the one doing the rejecting. If I can get her to concede that there’s a chance we’ll patch things up, that makes things easier for me: if I don’t have to go around feeling hurt, and powerless, and miserable, I can cope without her. In other words, I’m unhappy because she doesn’t want me; if I can convince myself that she does want me a bit, then I’ll be OK again, because then I won’t want her, and I can get on with looking for someone else.”
WOW – it’s there, spelled out black and white…
People move to consume benefits.
So long as there are free cake givers (us) there will be free cake eaters (assclowns).
Very simple.
Tania,
What a brilliant quote!
Although, does it not cut both ways – why would we go on pining after the AC/EU/MM who has clearly shown they dont give a sh*t?
Why would anyone want someone who doesn’t want them?
I have just finished reading “Celestial Navigation” by Anne Tyler. Portrait of an EUM who goes after the first woman he meets after his Mum dies, then (after having had six kids together) “forgets” to go to the wedding when she finally becomes free to marry. Though the author seems to be suggesting that its also because she is so strong and capable that the men don’t feel “needed”, she does appear in the end to have met a man who is a strong capable person, like herself .
And Tania, on PUA forums online you can see young men teaching each other how to push/pull, manipulate the pace of the relationship, delay replying to her, pull the “I’ll need to look at my schedule” trick, use ambiguity, call her needy and controlling, insult her looks, and on and on. They use these exact words.
@ intutive~
Last night my girlfriend and I met a man while out who said the most absurd things about how guys regard women. For example (brace yourself), he thought my girlfriend’s many rings on all fingers made her look much-loved, “valuable” and a “challenge” and my lack of them meant I was worth less and and an easier target for a man and therefore, not as “desirable.” WTH? More of his sage advice: let a man think you’re a challenge; they are only interested when you seem hard to get. Don’t be intelligent or confident. Men hate that; it’s too threatening.
He left me shaking my head in dismay. I try to be genuine with men. When I’m interested, I send signals. I’m a teacher, so it’s pretty damn hard to hide my intelligence & why would I want to? I’m confident enough to stand on a stage in a room full of strangers and sing. According to him, my goose is cooked…am I the only one who finds these “rules” utterly ridiculous?
Blueberrygirl
That’s just the noise of the wind rattling around in his empty head, meaning nothing signifying nothing. They just like the sound of their own voices and will say any random thing to get your attention. Also I wonder if that isn’t some PUA mindf*ck technique – making comparisons that boost one and put down the other. (being mean to make you compete with friend for his attention)
@blueberry: I’m not that familiar with kids, but to me this story about the rings sounds like something a 5-year-old would say to drive his siblings or playmates crazy. Some guys are really THAT immature.
Spontaneity = Disrespect. Period. I am a 50 yr. old woman with a son half time, a full time challenging career, a side business, lots of great friends, family obligations, a home to take care of, and I run every day for exercise. I usually have 2 or 3 days each week available for social or me-time activities and then every other weekend. I am not leaving those days to last minute chance. My girlfriends know I am scheduling out my happy hours and my boyfriend knows he needs to grab those days he can in advance. He even goes over my custody schedule with me each week for the following week.
One man I was dating couldn’t understand why I needed to know if we were go/no go for a date a week out. Ummm, cause I have a busy life??!! I called my current boyfriend this morning and asked if he could commit to a trip this summer because ticket prices are great right now. He laughed and said “my honey wants to plan her year and I am still planning what to put in my coffee this morning!” And then he talked to me about which times will work best for him so we can get our tickets next week.
This is a man who respects MY time and wants to spend HIS time with me!
Awesome. You sound like me. I just need to find a man like that one you found. (But only when I am ready.)
I’d also add….don’t suddenly decide to start having your own life, then threaten/warn/imply you might not be available if they don’t snap to. Cuz they might…for only as long as necessary to reel you back in and give you amnesia as to what you were about to do….which is actually GET a life, not talk about it.
Thankyou Natalie, exactly what I needed to read in the aftermath of my recent realisation on this exact issue.
Sure he made some effort, but there was a very strong element of all of this in my relationship. Baggage reclaim is such a life saver sometimes.
Thanks for this post Natalie. The way you break it down always helps.
I’m going to push a little deeper though and ask about my contribution in this scenario. The new guy admitted that sometimes he won’t call me on purpose to see if I will finally call him, because he said sometimes I act uninterested and don’t initiate things and that it makes him feel left out. He said that he eventually cracks and calls me. Then I’m aggravated at the last minute call for plans. Feels like a catch 22 at play here. The last minute call really bugs me and it does feel like being put on standby, but am I putting myself in the passenger seat and expecting him to do all the work? Worse, maybe I need that pursuit to make me feel validated. I’ve never been comfortable calling a guy up for plans, but am I being too hard on him by expecting him to make the plans most of the time after 6 months? I might be a little old fashioned but I also might be a bit stubborn. This is opening up a lot for me to think about….not just about his behavior but mine too. I have to be careful but remain open. I don’t want to be a junkyard pitbull or conversely a shy feral cat. Trying to find my balance there.
jennynic
try it, call him and ask him to dinner next friday night.
there’s something we need to be careful of:
“We never talk about the future because I don’t bring it up. I don’t intitiate anything, I should step up”. It sounds good but I think often the truth behind it is:
“If I talk to him about the future or try to make plans I know I’m not going to like what he will do/say/think and I don’t want the responsibility of dealing with that”.
I’m not saying that’s you, but it sure was me!
Yes Grace, there is probably an element of that in me too. It’s avoiding any rejection that my come with putting myself forward. I’ve invited him out a couple times, he always says yes, but here is just this under lying current of distance I can’t put my finger on. It seems like we haven’t done many things together that I think couples would do. We have very similar interests but it’s like we don’t do those things together. I go off and do them alone still.
Grace, you are spot on about how it was for me. Like he drew an invisible line I could not overstep. I tried but quickly learnt not to want too much, and sometimes knew better than to even call or send a text! And then he said- but It`s me who has to make contact first always. There is one name for it, crazymaking.
Sushi, I call it bait and switch. It does mess up your head doesn’t it.
I feel silly at this point writing about my last EUM experience. it’s been over for so long, year & half+. Every one of these posts I relate back to him, what happened between us, bc it’s the only significant relationship in my 40’s. and there weren’t too many in my mid-late 30’s either. It feels like by continuing to apply the lessons looking backward, it makes me think about him, which I’m trying hard not to do. This post struck a nerve for another area in my life causing pain and heartache– friendships.
In the past, it didn’t matter how awful things were going with BFs/ACs/EUMs, the posse of girlfriends was always there. It hasn’t been like that this time for me. It seems in mid-life, no one has the time for anything, certainly not to invest too much in friendship. I get it — they’ve all got husbands, families, BFs, kids. Most of the time, I feel exactly like what is described in this post, that I’m just on the periphery of the lives of the people who I thought were my closest friends, and often am treated as a last-minute standby. It’s easy to say go out and make new friends– I have really tried. Because of what I’ve been putting myself through during this period (plus some other major life stressors), I’ve been very careful to not overburden people. But it seems no matter how far I lower my expectations, I am consistently feeling let down, hurt by thoughtlessness, that I don’t really matter in the day to day life of one person on this earth. Everyone is only available on their terms, they rarely if ever will even just meet me for a coffee or a walk when I propose a get-together. The few times I’ve tried to address this with those I felt solid with, the results have not been good. New Year’s eve was ruined bc of some awful triangulating and betrayal from gf’s I have known for decades– it feels like those friendships are now kaput. Great, 2 more to cross off the list.
I worry that I’m overreacting, that my rejection sensitivity extends to all my relationships. but I *know* I’m on target, and I’m still making excuses and 2nd guessing my instincts, even with friends. I’m not in a position to adopt a child and raise as a single mom, but I really wish I could. I’ve filled up my life to the best of my ability the last 25 years, the Queen of Flying Solo. I just want my own family to build a life around. Having a hard time 🙁
Anoosh
I understand where you are coming from as I sometimes experience the same thing with my girlfriends. I’m in my late 40’s and I’m afraid some of it is just people being busy ie with kids etc. Alot of my friends are married/BF with kids and our lives style are just very different with regards to free time. It’s hard but that is how life can be sometimes. They do usually get in touch but usually with gaps of months sometimes. Others are very good and keep in touch every few weeks, it depends on the person. I know it’s not good if you are feeling lonely and you can start to feel a bit desperate if you contact them … like the lonely single woman friend. I have and am learning to get out more ….cafes, art galleries etc and doing things I love and have ended up talking to lots of different people; made some new single women friends, so I don’t have to rely on the ‘busy’ old friends so much. One thing to be aware of which I have noticed with some of my friends (married/BF) is that when they get in touch some take it as an opportunity to moan about the terrible partner etc for huge amount of time! I have had words with a couple of friends about this as it made me feel they were not valuing the friendship. There’s more to life than their relationship issues and that if I’m spending time with them it’s good quality time with balance not me being their ‘agony aunt!’ Keep positive, moods come and go and there are a lot of people in the same position. Just keeping talking and smiling with new people everyday.
@lioness: Love your comment (and your nickname, too)! I think it’s very important for us to realize that we don’t need certain people in our lives if they don’t need us (or maybe we just need each other less).
If we want to socialize, we should not wait to get this from old friends/acquaintances if they seem unwilling/reluctant to give it to us. This doesn’t mean we need to give them up as friends entirely. We just need to acknowledge their limits and then find other ways to get our needs met – by going out and looking for other people who want the same!
I think we often need to remind ourselves that we’re not children anymore. Children have very few options. They are very dependent on people next to them (mainly their parents) to get their needs met. As adults, our world is much, much bigger, but we often act as if it isn’t.
Anoosh,
I am in a similar place. My friends’ lifestyles do not mesh in any way with mine so it is difficult to find someone to spend time with, and on the rare occasions people decide to go after work for drinks it is typically not on the one day a week my ex has our daughter and so I cannot join them. So I too continue to try to meet new friends and hopefully will click with someone whose free time more closely mirrors my own. I have a childhood Facebook friend who lives in Holland (I’m in the US) and she is my sharing friend. When I need to overburden and overexpress I write long messages to her and get it off my chest. She knows I do this and is perfectly happy to be my sounding board and she often answers with some great insight, but then at least I feel like I can see some of my local friends without spending the whole time talking about me and my problems because that does get old for them I think. I am thinking about joining a local book club if I can get over my shyness enough to jump in.
My ex eum doesn’t know the meaning of spontaneous he would often laugh and say he needed to learn to be spontaneous.
He always rang well in advance with plans to do something and meet and if it suited me. He never texted invites never stood me up and yet he was still emotionally unavailable.
Everything still managed to be on his terms and of course if I was passing by I could never drop by or arrange anything last minute because he wanted my invitations well in advance too.
I thought I would post this because people may read it and think oh my guy calls he makes plans in advance etc but obviously all the other stuff that makes a relationship needs to be there as well.
Good point, Tulipa. I sometimes remind myself of that with certain posts as well, such as when people talk about being managed by text. My ex called me every day, sometimes many times throughout the day. I saw him at least a few times a week as well. I felt like he wanted to talk to me and see me regularly, yes, but it was still always on his terms, and there were other issues at play that were red flags.
I remember early on that I wasn’t sure whether things would go anywhere with him. After the first few weeks of him trying to see me daily/every other day, the following month it worked out that between the two of us, there would only be one week where we were both in town. He still called me daily, but when that one week came when we were both around, he made no suggestion of seeing one another. It really bothered me. I had a friend telling me how he obviously really liked me and who acted like I was crazy for having reservations. But I think the bottom line here is that when a man really wants to be with you, you should know it, full out. If there was only one week in four when we would be in the same place, he should have at least wanted to hang out one night during that week (barring some kind of emergency/insane work schedule, etc)–we lived all of a five minute drive away from one another, for God’s sake! Instead he would sit there talking on the phone for ages instead of just getting off his ass and coming to see me.
Sometimes I think I was on mute.
I needed to speak up for myself and ask questions dammit!
One time I asked my AC, what are you doing this weekend – and it was like ‘oh I am going to X, doing Y blah blah’ – NO invitation for me. How crap is that. 2 weeks had to fly by before I saw them again.
Next time, I ask questions! We are too eager to suppress ourselves, our needs, our desires, our voice, our everything.
Great post. I am ashamed to say, I was the queen of sitting and waiting for his text or email (I should have been so lucky as to get an actual phone call), telling me what (or if) we would be doing anything. On the few occasions when I suggested something, he literally acted as though I had not spoken. He didn’t even give the courtesy of saying no – he said nothing. That I didn’t feel enough for myself to stand up and walk away fills me with sadness. I spent so much time and energy clearing my schedule, making sure I was available if he wanted to do anything – no wonder this raging narcissist thought he was the center of the universe. I made him the center of mine. When he showed up at all, it was somewhere between 1 and 2 hours late, with no explanation or apology. When he decided he wanted to do something, I was to drop everything and run and I am embarrassed to say I always did. I thought, at the time, I was being low maintenance and non-demanding, the perfect thing to be for an admitted commitment phobic man. What I was was a doormat, willing to accept any crap scrap and acting like I had been blessed from on high.
What was I thinking?
OH MY GOSH! This post completely sums up my time with the ex EUM…I would try to make plans with him in advance and I would get “oh your such a control freak, you plan everything to the last detail” blah blah “I like to be spontaneous”…..it was ridiculous I then started to doubt myself thinking maybe I was controlling and that he was right it was good to be “spontaneous”.
His spontaneous was texting me at 5pm on a Friday evening after work asking if he could come round that night…but yet he would always ask me to let him know in advance if I wanted to do anything with him. Then when I did ask him in advance it would be I will let you know, keep me on standby so that if he didn’t get a better offer he would then come back to me lastminute.com and say he could meet me.
It got tiresome in the end I just left it to him to make plans with me, can you imagine, this then put me in a position of waiting around for him to make contact. Me jumping every time I got a text (yes most of our communication over 6 years on and off was via text)
I really look back and cringe at some of the things I allowed him to get away with.
I have been no contact since January 2011, he tried to make contact with me in October he called me one night at 10.30pm *smh*. I ignored then a few days later he tried to add me on facebook *decline*. This website has been a complete God send and has explained his behaviour to a T ;-0
Ladies, from one man’s perspective:
A friend of mine contacted me last night and asked me what I thought of Natalie’s latest posting.
Honestly, I was shocked that this subject needed to be addressed, because it seems so obvious to me.
This sort of behavior is defined as being used, treated inconsiderately, taken for granted, and not respected.
For example, for me, some of the fun of seeing someone that I have deep feelings for is the anticipation of seeing her.
It’s a similar feeling as the arrival of Christmas or my birthday, when I was a child.
By having plans, I drive my anticipation.
So……I try to book her dance card in advance.
Trust me, when I find myself not wanting to be considerate, or not looking forward to spending face time, then this is a red flag to me, and I will quickly move on.
I want to be with someone that has enough respect for themselves to not allow this type of behavior from me. If you are willing to accept ‘being-on-call’, then I know that the relationship will eventually become boring.
On the other hand, please don’t be too quick to judge without expressing yourself by honestly communicating. There may be reasons for the spontaneity. Maybe you are always talking about how busy you are and your man is confused about how to approach you. Maybe he is in a place where he can’t even plan his own life beyond the next twenty-four hours. Maybe he is just a rude person. Whatever the reason, if you are truly attracted to this person, open communication is the best way to go. Dating is often awkward, especially in mid-life.
Although I agree with the vast majority of what Natalie writes, I have this posted on the wall of my office, and this is what I have come to believe:
There is no such thing as a perfect relationship.
It is how two people deal with their imperfections that make it perfect.
Sometimes you just have to let go, and go after whatever it is you want more than anything.
It’s difficult to wait, but even more difficult to regret.
Never stop believing.
Never give up on something you want.
Miracles happen every day.
The most beautiful thing in the world is to see the person that you love smiling,
And it is even more beautiful knowing that you’re the reason behind it.
This is what I live by.
When I read many of the replies to Natalie’s postings, I get the sense that many feel that unless it’s without…
“I want to be with someone that has enough respect for themselves to not allow this type of behavior from me. If you are willing to accept ‘being-on-call’, then I know that the relationship will eventually become boring.”
ABOVE is From A MAN’S POINT OF VIEW, by Single in Texas.
I wish I had the above fact at start of my last relationship. Even though he controlled the relationship – I should have stood my boundaries and not given him the control. I will keep all this in mind from here out, and to hopefully find a good healthy relationship! Thanks for caring TEXAS!!
interesting, bc that quote jumped out at me too. except, it kind of rubbed me the wrong way. I feel like it implies that this is some sort of a test that would be given to a woman, and if she doesn’t pass it, then — buh-bye, you obviously don’t have enough self-respect to call me on my s***. Sorry, don’t mean to stir anything up here, but I did have kind of a strong reaction to reading that. also, I’m not really clear how the words to live by are supposed to apply– going after what you want, or never giving up on something you want… in regards to a relationship, with a specific person? I think many people end up here because they *can’t* give up on someone, even though it’s a dead-end, possibly bc of the Last Chance Saloon factor. I don’t know if men put themselves through that as much as women do, btw. There is not the kind of stigma around age for them, it’s perfectly acceptable to “go after” someone 10, 20, 30 years younger. Women for the most part are more limited in the pool we have to choose from after a certain age. also — the idea of going after someone, there’s all kinds of messaging out there that we’re never supposed to be perceived as doing the chasing, that it’s a doomed relationship if that goes on.
also this — “Trust me, when I find myself not wanting to be considerate, or not looking forward to spending face time, then this is a red flag to me, and I will quickly move on.” why would there ever be a reason to not want to be considerate? if you’re not that into someone that you’ve been dating, and feel like it’s not going to work out, what does that have to do with having an urge to be inconsiderate to them? I’m very curious about this. if I want to break up with someone, it doesn’t make me want to be inconsiderate. I think this is confusing for a lot of people, when someone you’re involved and possibly intimate with starts being jerk-ish for no apparent reason. I know it is for me.
btw, the end of the post got cut off, was wondering what comes after “When I read many of the replies to Natalie’s postings, I get the sense that many feel that unless it’s without…”? I’m asking all these questions because I want to gain some insight on how men think about relationships.
anoosh
This is a general observation and not tied to Single’s comment, but many men and women blame their relationship habits/tactics/whatever on the other person not being good enough. AKA – not wife/husband material/too nice/ not challenging enough/too challenging.
Often, if you can’t find a commitment worthy person it’s because you’re trying to find someone to fill a gap or inadequacy in yourself. For years I felt like I was walking about with a part of my insides shot out. There’s no-one who’s exciting/charming/nice/good/wonderful/challenging/
funny/interesting enough to overcome that. When the initial excitement has waned and the dust has settled, you’re still left with that feeling, only you’re in a relationship so you can blame it on the other person!
Another thing – if you often get heavily involved with men who mistreat you, you need to look at why that’s appealing to you. Who cares what motivates them, you can’t do anything about that. They’re grown men.
Deal with your own issues first and the rest will surely follow as day follows night.
single in texas , you’ve summed it up
“For example, for me, some of the fun of seeing someone that I have deep feelings for is the anticipation of seeing her.
It’s a similar feeling as the arrival of Christmas or my birthday, when I was a child.
By having plans, I drive my anticipation.
So……I try to book her dance card in advance”
alot of us are not getting this from the guy we continue to chase. they do not want to be with us. hence all these problems we are facing with these guys. We want people we can’t have. we want people who dont ‘anticipate’ seeing us. my days of obsessing over men are OVER. i want someone who wants me. i am not going to chase over a man again. i thank natalie and her posts for keeping me sane and on the right track.
Jasmine~
It seems I was always chasing after some guy and am just now making a determined effort to STOP the madness, largely due to reading Nat’s posts and BR.
I loved the challenge and thought the men were “extra special” if they resisted me. (The opposite is more like it). It was almost some sick game to win them over. Unfortunately, I paid in spades with my self-esteem, confidence and pride. No man is worth that. I’m through trying to convince someone of my value.
@blueberry girl
Totally relate to what you say even if with mr make a date in advance from above I was chasing him trying to prove my worth etc as though he were extra special.
I too paid in spades in all the relationships where I chased the guy who was resisting me I know what it means now when he resists
Stay far far away and accept it for what it is.
I cannot begin to express how glad I was to come upon Baggage Reclaim. I was dating someone and about a month in to it, I googled “emotionally unavailable men” and presto – there was Natalie! I bought her book and did some mad highlighting! It described this man to a “T” – but despite that, I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt and I expressed my concerns to him -which in turn, he threw me a few bread crumbs and I hung in there. Well, just shy of 4 months of “dating” and during my birthday, of all times, he has pulled the vanishing act! Just as described in this latest blog, he never made plans in advance with me and kept me on standby…I shouldn’t be surprised that it has come to this, but it’s still a pretty hard pill to swallow to know that someone could have so little regard. I’m just glad that I knew enough early on, saw the signs…but next time, I will be less likely to give the benefit of the doubt and really listen to my gut.
Hi Nat! This is a great post. I haven’t really faced this situation in my dating life… Any guy who has tried to manage me this way just gets no response from me, but I feel that the message of valuing yourself and your time also applies to all personal relationships. I have a friend who is pretty inconsiderate of my time. For example, I’ll call early in the week to see how she’s doing and if she wants to get together on the weekend, or some future date/event. She never picks up. I’ll not hear from her for weeks and then she’l text me in the middle of the day to see if I’m free for dinner that night…and yes, I used to make myself as available as I could, depending on her schedule, whenever she decided to contact me. This is the first time I haven’t one so. I am working 7 days a week for the next two months, and so I texted her back and said I wasn’t available, that I would contact her when some free time cropped up. Next time we are face to face, I will talk to her about it… she just may not realize that it’s inconsiderate.
Jas
Ex- EU words : I don’t play games.
What he meant : if you do what when I want, I am happy, if you can’t accept that I am not at your beck and call, then it’s your problem.
Beck and call : me asking for something I wanted to do.
I have to respectfully disagree with a chunk of this post. I’ll admit that I often contact some of guy and girl friends to make very short term plans. by very short term I mean: a couple of hours to a day. Whenever I make a plan like that, it’s never about having them on the back-burner or an option. Many times, I actually do find out about an event shortly before contacting them. Furthermore, they are the first and sometimes only people I contact. If I tell someone, “Hey I just found out about (insert event)” I mean just that.
I guess I’m the person who’s spontaneity gets shot down as rude, while the other person gets a free license to do whatever they want at my expense.
I often do make concrete plans with people, but I also appreciate the freedom to be able to make quick plans with people that I have known for a period of time. I think the above article is “those who doth protest” styled rant. I don’t think spontaneity should be a negative nor a deal-breaker.
I think it’s hypocritical that many women complain about boring men while they fear spontaneity.
Cyril
I think you need to re-read Nat’s post. It is quite clear. No one is saying that you cannot be spontaneous eg hearing about a good concert last minute and then asking friends if they want to go. This happens all the time to lots of people and the majority of people are fine with this happening, occasionally. If you’re a person who does this all the time for lots of things in their live it would be an issue (would have some pretty annoyed friends!). In a ‘committed’ relationship last minute ….spontaneous stuff with few hrs notice shouldn’t be the norm. I was married and I would say my ex-husband was spontaneous in a very balanced way. Once he surprised me with a weekend away (but he had planned it secretly.. hint!). He would ring me at work to go for a lovely meal and a nice restaurant. These were all lovely things/surprises and didn’t make me feel at all uncomfortable. The key point is a lot of people feel uncomfortable and annoyed and feel like a last option if someone continually ‘last minutes them’ — it’s not good and eventually friends get annoyed. No one likes to feel like a last minute option. It doesn’t make you feel like a valued friend. If you make a habit of it you might find friends starting saying no to invites and might start criticising said behaviour as I had to do with one ex-friend, who was continually doing this type of thing that people starting complaining!. There is a difference and by the way spontaneity doesn’t equal interesting! Take’s a lot more to being an interesting person than being spontaneous.
lioness
I’m that person. I loathe last minute invites and it’s very rare that I accept them. I don’t have a car, it takes me over an hour to get home from work, I can’t actually accommodate last minute plans even if I wanted to (which I don’t).
I guess that means I don’t have spontenous friends, which is fine by me. They wouldn’t want to be my friend either so it’s all good.
This post isn’t so much about friends suddenly deciding to get together- it’s to do with inequality in a relationship where one person gets to be spontaneous and the other just waits for the spontaneity to include them.
Hello, friends and neighbors. I really don’t know what has come over men. Have they been coddled by their mamas, told that they are rare prizes, and a woman would be lucky to just be in their presence? Or did it all start with the article in Time or Newsweek in the mid-80’s that suggested that a single woman over 40 is more likely to be shot (or was it held?) by terrorists than to get married? I do not know. But it does my heart good to see more and more and more (and more!) women coming to this site and sharing experiences and expressing resolve to not be part of the problem anymore! As more and more of us wise up, Eum and Ac men will have fewer and fewer options, and will have to eventually shape up! And realize that they are indeed not that special. Thanks to NML for getting this ball rolling and for all of you for taking your power and self respect back! You all inspire me more with each article and comment I read. Rock on!
kata1
It started in the Garden of Eden when God said to Eve “your desire will be for your husband and he will lord it over you”.
You may or may not believe this biblical story to be literal truth but it sure was written a long time ago, way before the article you mention. It wasn’t God’s recommendation for how we should live, but He surely saw how it was going to be for men and women when we screw up.
Since then, God’s had a plan to put things right. Do your bit – take care of yourself and don’t let anyone lord it over you.
@Grace: I’m usually not in favor of comments that only consist of a smiley, but in this case…
😉 !
Love it.
Ha ha
There was an article in the guardian a day or too – seemingly no Muslim woman has the slightest chance of getting married these days b/c all the men are marrying girls from Pakistan or have low educational achievement; and no black women in America can get married either, because all the black men are in prison or are of low educational etc etc. They ran an article recently about how no women (of any colour) in NY can get married, I can’t remember what exactly the problem was.
Since i’ve started reading BR I have looked out for these kind of articles and they now make me laugh instead of feel afraid. Its all rubbish. Usually based on one persons perception or a few apocryphal stories, dished up as hard facts, but no real evidence at all.
Stand by-mode is okay as long as it is a stand by yourself unconditionally. 😉
Whew, this was my life exactly 6-7 months ago. At first he made plans with me but then, when I became old news it was all “I’m busy,” or saying how we would do something only to never call, show up, or follow through. Of course, like an idiot, I waited a few times. Although one time I picked myself up and decided to go out with my friends after a no show act from him. What’s weird is that when he was “busy” at times he would call more often, maybe to keep me hooked (most likely). On one occasion where I didn’t see much of him for over a week he called me almost every day (mainly to lay it on thick, but sometimes just to converse), while at others times I would go about a month without any contact from his end. (Of course, I would contact him during this time, unfortunately.) I remember like Nat said above, waiting to see if I would be in his plans for that week. It was so sad I can’t believe I was living with so much self denial. Relationships in the beginning should be fun and easier than what follows. I believe they should progress naturally and without so much worry and anxiety like the above warrants. Both individuals should want to see one another and spend time together and doing so should be equally maintained by both halves.
These posts make me very reflective about everything. I basically ended up telling this person where to go- (unfortunately it took hearing that he was spending time with someone that I’m sure he hooked up with multiple times in his past) -never hearing his side of things which he claims I should have done. What a ridiculous human being. He claimed I read too much into things, of course it’s all my fault. How someone can treat another person as such is beyond me.
“You are better than sitting around waiting to be called up for duty. You’re also better than being a standby option after they’ve made sure they haven’t got better plans. You’re someone to be made plans with.”
God, this is so refreshing to read. Of course I am good enough! Of course, I don’t have to put my day on hold waiting for him to make his plans before considering me!
I experienced being the ‘last minute option’ way too many times with my ex. Usually he’d end up hanging out with his friends while I am trying so hard to let him know I am there for him. He’d twist things around because he’d always tell me we don’t spend enough time together, so I would free up my schedule, only for him to abuse that and see me only once he’s seen all his friends.
We have lives ladies! And they are not to be spent with assholes!
@mymble: Interesting you asking “why would we go on pining after the AC/EU/MM who has clearly shown they dont give a sh*t? Why would anyone want someone who doesn’t want them?” I think the key here is self-worthiness. As Nat so clearly said yesterday on Facebook: “People who carry around a feeling of not being good enough, invariably find reasons to feel not good enough.” What best way to validate that feeling than by going after an AC/EU/MM? It’s in itself a self-fulfilling prophecy!
Your book sounds good. Amazing how much you can learn when you finally decide to live with your eyes wide open. Every time I read a book or listen to a song now, my EU antenna goes wild. It’s everywhere around us! Thanks Nat for keeping us sane and bullsh*t-free 🙂
Tania,
Yes I see it everywhere, the repeating patterns!
For a song about how and why to go NC check the lyrics for “too old to die young” by Timber Timbre. All the verses apply but my 2 favourites
“These signs of natural disasters
Predictions of a brutal force
In case youre thinking of escaping
Before you wake I’ll take your horse”
And
“You may not look inside my mind anymore
Now you may leave my arms of moss
And it’s time we burned our bridges
So I know I won’t come creeping to your cross”.
The tune is great too. The anti-Adele!!!
Grace you hit the nail on the head.
So, had 3 dates with a guy, we chat EVERY DAY via ph or text for weeks before and during out dates, it starts to get to the point where I’m thinking of taking it a step further, and then bam!…nothing for several days on end. I leave a message with him asking how he is – he doesn’t reply. I give up realising he must not be into me, when he texts me 7 days after last hearing from him ‘sorry I haven’t been in touch, I’ve been manic busy. Do you want to go to dinner tomorrow’…..Um. No thank you, what am I your fallback option? It’s obvious you’ve met someone else and just want to keep me on standby ‘just in case’. Shame cos you seemed like a catch, but guess you’re missing out on something great cos you pissed about.
Don’t give him another moment of your time unless you like to be treated like an option.
After a lengthy NC with the ex AC – with me ignoring his texts, I had a text from him yesterday asking if I’d have dinner with him one night. Well I thought ‘no harm in that’. I’m over him and getting on with life and ignoring him seemed a bit childish after he’d played such a big part in my life for 2 years. So I texted back ‘OK let’s have dinner one night’. 24 hours later there’s no response! Now I’m left wondering – was he just ‘fishing’ to see if I’d take the bait and now he’s ignoring me – or – was the text meant for someone else. I can live with it, but its left me feeling stupid for responding. Should I just ignore it or should I text (his favoured method of communication) to say clearly it was meant for someone else on his list and to forget it? Will I ever learn , once an AC, always an AC!
No don’t reply. He’s fishing. You deserve better. Stand your ground, hold your head high. He’s not meant for you. : )
If you needed a reminder as to why you went no contact with this particular AC, I think you just got it!
What a w***er!
He’s just trying to mess with you. When you respond, it allows him to sustain the delusion that he’s still important to you even though he could never be bothered to make the effort needed to please you and keep you. Total loser. Total waste of time. Please don’t respond further. You deserve way better.
Shattered, block and delete. Keep your power ignore him from this point on no matter what he says.
Loved this post! Here’s the big question I’ve been grappling with for ages: If men aren’t taking the steps to treat me properly, and they’re not taking the steps to treat any of my friends or any of the women my friends know properly, then who in F*CK’S name ARE they treating properly?
Or is it that everyone is a “Fallback girl” in the life of a “Mr. Unavailable?”
Is there a “secret” type of woman they do things for? Or is it just that they don’t do anything for anyone other than themselves?
beth, i have thought long and hard about this question too. but mr. ex EUM spelled it out for me. although he was treating me like shite, realised it but had the gall to tell me how i would feel if in a few months time, he does have a new relationship or is engaged because he wanted a break from me…we were doing no contact for 5 months, thought it was supposed to end peacefully, but it didnt… the point is, when men have set their mind about things, they will settle. thats why some friends i know ex’s ended up marrying women that were a) totally unnattractive and so not their type. i read a study somewhere that on the scale of things from highest (10) to lowest (1), men will screw with a girl who is for example a 10, but marry a girl thats a 5. someday well men feel the pressure to marry, a lot of it is due to culture, family, wanting children etc, so i will say that my ex EUM will never find a girl like me but will marry an imported girl from overseas (my ex’s family want him to marry someone from their culture and he has said that he would have an arranged marriage from someone overseas.) anyway, that girl will never treat him as i have treated him. and well, i treated him like a god. so a lot of guys miss out on great women and marry wrong ones and same for women, we settle as well. hence the fact that half marriages end in divorce.
Beth, I really didn’t like the comments you made about “grading” women on a 1 to 10 scale. It’s very unkind and in any case we are all human beings with our own personalities and qualities, it’s all subjective as to what is loveable in another person. Don’t take your anger out on a woman you don’t know and who has done nothing to you.
And, why would you treat a man “like a god”? He isn’t. There are other posts on this site about why you should never put someone on a pedestal. If you put them up there they will be looking “down” on you.
Beth, sorry that was for Jasmine.
jasmine
Don’t compete with other women, don’t do the she’s a ten and he’s a five and don’t treat men like a God. They don’t respect you for that, they look down on you from their lofty Godlike height while you are falling over yourself trying to impress them.
The divorce rate in the UK is actually falling.
Beth, it’s a simple as this: they are directing, producing, living and starring in the all-about-them show. If you are or anyone else are remotely ‘lucky’ when it comes to them, you might be graciously afforded a fleeting cameo role in this show. Seriously….do not expect any more than that. Yes, they’re that two-dimensional.
Should add though that not all men are like this. Just the losers we need to give a VERY wide berth. Thank God for real men! They are the only ones able to put the ACs out of business because, once you have a real man, you will never go back to accepting the destructive behaviour of an AC.
Beth,
So I think it all comes down to compatibility and compatibility is a very subtle thing. It has to do with physiology, genetics, temperament, character, etc… It is a very subjective thing. Once a person finds that special someone that resonates with them, they will treat it like a treasure, ofcourse if they realize what they have. Some people are not sensitive, or attuned enough to recognize such a person, or are unlucky to ever meet one. You can be a very beautiful person by many standards but some people’s brains can be hard wired for some other facial features, smell, feel, gestures, sound of voice etc. So it doesn’t mean that your facial features, character or voice are universally repulsive.
I found that even though I and many consider me attractive, some guys aren’t as appreciative of me as others, and those guys most likely won’t be treating me right as well simply because we are not good enough match in some of these very hard to describe areas.
Hi Beth
The fact is an EUM is not going to treat any woman well, particuarly if the women they target are usually EU as well with low self esteem. They are all about being fake with no depth so how can they possibly treat anyone well. They would have to do some serious work/therapy to sort themselves out and the vast majority of them don’t do the work! We all know on BR how hard it is to change and keep moving forward when you acknowledge it to yourself that you have to change. It they haven’t done this = NO CHANGE, SAME BEHAVIOUR. Haven’t you noticed that they are all about being very charming (blowing h0t & cold) but any woman who asserts her needs and who has good self esteem will walk (sorry RUN) away fast and won’t given them the time of day. There is a saying that ‘the people you hang around with shows what you think about yourself’, therefore EUM + EUW = Unavailable, shady behaviour everytime! From my own experience I’ve thought the AC I was seeing over a year ago and knew for 10 yrs was treating some other woman better than me. The fact is he was not. I only had to look with my ‘new’ higher self esteem eyes to see that. The woman was being a doormat and giving him everything on his terms. She looked happy but we’ve all been there and know ‘that look’ is not the true picture of what is going on inside. Reading the body language of both people told me all I needed to know. It made me shiver to see it and I thank god I am no longer in a situation like that. A woman who is involved with an EUM is usually full of confusion, insecurities, low self-esteem (insert the rest etc).
Lioness,
May I say an amen and hallelujah. Gracious, did you just sum it up. I’ve seen “that look” even when my self-esteem was in the toilet. Your comment brought back the “shiver” when I read the body language and saw that look. It’s the unmistakable look of confusion.
Thank you for the reminder. I probably had the same confused look.
My ex was like that. He wanted to stay friends and occasionally we would hook up and now he vanishes. I suppose on his terms he is saying he can jump in and out of my life whenever he wants to and meanwhile can date around and whenever he needs to get his ego stroke he finds me well that isn’t happening in anymore! I will not be someone’s booty call or someone’s option. I sometimes even blamed myself for his vanishing act but at the end of the day I realized it was him not me that had issues and he just needed a ego stroke and I fell for it thinking he wanted to get back together. Do not be someone’s second option ever!
Natalie, I sometimes think you have a mini-camera following me around my life! 🙂 This is EXACTLY how my EUM acted toward me (he has a girlfriend of 4+ years). After blowing hot and cold for many months, pulling a disappearing act and then reappearing (when he wanted to “sext”) he came by my place one evening to “hang out.” He said since he’d borrowed his mom’s car to come here, he could only stay a couple of hours or so. Guess what? By the end of the evening, we had a sexual experience …. and I have never felt so empty and used, and so angry at myself for falling for it. I don’t think he could have run out my door any faster, unless his rear end was on fire.
Next thing I know, he pulls a disappearing act AGAIN … saying he felt “kinda guilty, and we have to keep it PG for a bit … but I’d still like to hang out.”
Uh, NO WAY. Thanks to this blog and others’ posts, I have decided never again to be someone’s option or booty call. I’ve blocked his number, Facebook page, and email address; I do not even acknowledge him at work (yes we work at the same place, but not the same department, thank goodness). I don’t know if he’s tried to contact me, and frankly I don’t care anymore. The pain is easing with every passing day, too.
I do pity him, somewhat; he is a very troubled man, with past and current drug and alcohol issues, as well as some serious emotional/mental problems. His current girlfriend is also a big pot user. On the other hand, I now realize A) I cannot “fix” him and B) he is in no shape to give me what I need, and he probably never will be. And I will remain NC.
I spent a year turning down my EUM but was starting to see him again this past 6 months. He called a few months ago and wanted to come over and this was at night. I said I couldn’t as I was getting ready for something in the morning. He started saying ” oh I will leave early” and kept trying to get me to have time for him. I just said naw. I wasn’t playing games I really was in the middle of stuff. Anyway I haven’t heard from him in a few months now. That’s really unusual. When I really sat down to think about it, I realized that was the FIRST time I EVER gave the reason I didn’t want to see him is that I was busy. That is in almost four years. And I haven’t heard from him since.
I want to shout out how happy I am having discovered this place! Thank you so much Natalie, and the lovely people posting here!
I could post this as a reaction to several articles actually. About being on standby. About being lied to, maybe. Being spontaneous. Guys not wanting to plan ahead. Poofing.. I’d appreciate it big time if you read this.
Beginning of December I went on a date with a guy I got to know through a dating site. He invited me to a concert and it was great! I had booked a hotel because I didn’t feel like depending on having to catch the last train back home. The next day we got together again and had brunch. He suggested to meet again early evening. Our date ended with a genuine hug on the train platform while he waited with me for my last train home 🙂 One evening out resulted in more than 24 lovely hours. I thought I had found my soulmate (ouch!).
I initiated the second date. We had dinner in my town. Great evening again. He stayed at my place, we slept together but didn’t have sex. He made breakfast for me, we went Christmas shopping, he held me in public, I felt like I had won the lottery.
After that it was me again who did the initiating. On the train one day I texted him that I could jump off for a beer if he felt like it. He did, and by the time I got there he had already booked a restaurant.
We celebrated New Year’s Day together, cooked together, he had bought my favourite wine, we had fun (and sex), breakfast together. He had to work the next day but I could stay at his place, gave me the code of his alarm, wrote down how to get back to the train station. He trusted me with his house and stuff! He has my taste in music! Loves to enjoy life the way I do! Has a great sense of humour!
But that was the last time I saw him. It’s been 4 weeks now.
He has a 7 year old son who’s with him every other week, so we can only see eachother every other weekend. Two weeks ago I asked him if he wanted to have dinner at my place. He couldn’t, busy week, stuff to do in the house, mountainbiking. He tried to fit me in on Saturday night but I felt like I had pushed it so I said he should just enjoy his plans. Later he texted me, saying he hadn’t been feeling well on Friday, he would have been bad company anyway. And that he ended up spending Saturday at work *sad smiley face here*
He sent me nice texts out of the blue. I was thinking, I’ll give it another two weeks till he has the weekend off again.
He told me he had a project in my town, and if they’d get the job, he would have to work here one day a week. He thought I’d like to hear that. Of course I did! Next day I asked him how it went, but the presentation was bad and he didn’t think they would get the job. Never heard about it again.
Last Wednesday I called him at 10pm. He picked up, “hi sweetie !!”, and when I asked how he was, he said he only got home from work half an hour before. And if I would mind him having something to eat while on the phone. I said I would let him unwind and relax. He said he would call me afterwards. When I didn’t hear from after 45′ I texted him saying that he should relax. We’d talk later. He apologized, saying he felt so empty after that long day. I said it was OK, told him I’d feel terrible if he’d call me because he’d feel obliged.
Never heard from him since. Did I make things too easy for him? Did I just boost his ego? Today is Sunday. We could have spent time together this weekend, but he didn’t bring it up once.
I think I confused dating with having a relationship. But I’m such an enthusiastic fool when something nice happens. I’m not a naive person generally. I know people perceive me as an independent woman. But sometimes I tend to jump in with both feet and I lose all sense of reality. I love myself for being able to do that. But now I despise myself for it.
The initiating didn’t make me feel bad in general because he always added something in order to make it extra special. But not meeting two weeks ago should have been a huge red flag for me. We live 45’ apart, not 4 days. I know for a fact that he has a busy job. But he’s not President Obama. There’d be ways to meet if he wanted to. Oh and he went mountainbiking today. He just posted his score on Facebook, haha.
I’ve been feeling drained the last couple of days. A couple of days ago I was thinking about telling him how I feel. I haven’t, fortunately. I decided to do the NC thing instead. I feel very disrespected, but no way I’ll let him know. I’d just waste my energy again.
I’m being realistic now: I met the guy only 2 months ago. We didn’t see eachother for the last 4 weeks. When I re-read this, it sounds like I’ve been living in some stupid fantasy.
Thanks for listening. I…
Wow Orkide,
You got the Houdini act big time. I have not experienced this phenomenon personally but many BR readers have had similar experiences and Natalie did an article a while back (check the archives) on this. As Natalie has said, dating is a discovery phase. You’ve just discovered some critical info: He can run hot as hell for a few months and turn ice cold with no apparent reason. If after 2 months, he disappears for 4 weeks leaving you feeling disrespected that is incredibly important info. Since he isn’t President Obama or one of the GOP contenders and has time to hit the mountain bike trail and has time to post on FB, he’s probably just another one of the twits we all run into, although he sounded like a nice twit from your description. Still a twit. If I were in your shoes and after a year on BR, I would stay NC, block, delete, and defriend. Don’t let him come crawling back with some lame busy excuse. Nobody is that busy for 4 straight weeks and he wasn’t that busy for the 2 prior months. Stay in reality even though you experienced the dreamy stuff. He’s blowing ice cold after 2 months and it doesn’t matter why. It’s a sign. It’s a giant red flag. Opt out. hugs.
Hi runnergirlno1
Thanks for your post.
I know I should block and defriend him. But something in me keeps me from doing it all at once. It has something to do with pride. It may sound stupid to act like this. But I feel like, if I delete him everywhere, he might see that as a sign that I’m sad or angry. And I’d just prefer to keep him hanging for a while. I don’t play childish games usually. Oh how I loathe them. But in this case, I’d like to have him wondering why I just keep doing what I do (except contacting him). For a week or so.
On the other hand, an EUM probably wouldn’t care less… We’ll see.
I’ve been digging in the archives here already! Whenever I tend to wander off and start thinking about the good things and the” why’s oh why’s!”, I read something here. And I feel better. This place is a godsend.
orkide
that’s exactly why you should block and defriend him.
he might see it as a sign of x, y, or z or he may think nothing at all – you’ve no control over that. he could just as easily see it as a sign that you’ve more self-respect than to put up with his BS.
I no longer understand why women feel it reflects badly on them to expect to be treated with decency, respect and even as a PRIORITY. And to flush those who don’t come up to the mark.
what you CAN control is his access to come back and do you over again.
You don’t move on fully when you’re stalking them on FB.
I’ve been there and done all that, a million times over and it was a complete and utter waste of my time, energy and emotion.
orkide
nuke him. “busy” also means “I don’t want to spend too much time with you or initiate anything or make plans in case you get any funny ideas about us being a proper couple”.
THAT’S what they’re too busy for and THAT’S what they’re scared of (should you be someone who likes to use the “he’s scared” excuse). He’s scared all right, but not of how much he loves you.
Grace, thanks.
Even though I see things much clearer already, I have these moments where I start to ask, “why why WHY-Y??”. Like earlier. So I started reading and found the articles about “Compatability, Your Type, and Common Interests “. I was in shock for a moment 🙂 That’s me. “He has my taste in music! He loves this and that and so do I! We’re soulmates!”. It’s a pattern. I’ve done this before…
Here’s an excerpt that was an eye-opener for me: “What happens if your ‘soulmate’ has an off day, week, month or a few years?
What happens if your ‘soulmate’ is an illusion that doesn’t hold up to scrutiny?
What happens if your ‘soulmate’ can only exist if you have no boundaries and do things on their terms?
Well actually, you don’t need to wonder because if you’ve been involved with a Mr Unavailable or assclown, the likelihood is that part of the reason why you’re still there is because when he briefly exhibited ‘wonderful’ qualities and characteristics, you convinced yourself that you’d found your soulmate because he created ‘feelings’, and then you committed yourself to a voyage trying to get him to be that way again even though he had shown that he was consistently a different person.”
Had myself fooled by a complete twit again. And the idea that I consider myself an intelligent woman but I still go all sad over a guy that I haven’t seen for 4 weeks… I have some serious work to do. Hell.
Amen to that! Thanks – that’s just what I wanted to read today! 🙂
I’ve read through these posts and I know how the women having problems with these types of men feel. I had similar problems in the past. Gut wrenching experiences with these men. But I finally came to a conclusion. The men you talk of. The non committing, blase, hot and cold, selfish men. They will NEVER change. Not for you anyway and probably not for anyone else. And it is a waste of time to analyse and obsess and wonder and play into their games all the time. It’s self destructive. And while you are focusing on these children you are missing out on opportunities with REAL men. Nice men. Respectful men. Men with empathy and understanding for other people. Men who strive to improve themselves not just for you but for themselves and who make you want to be the best person YOU can. I know these men exist because once I gave up on the idiot men, I met a real man. And I thank myself all the time for realising I needed to let go of the idiots and be happy with myself (and with being single) and hence open myself up to the greatest love of my life.
Strength and wisdom to you all.
After a 3 yr relationship with an EUM, I finally feel ready to get back out there. I am a nurse and I’m really interested in a doctor that I would with. He is a great person and really good with his patients. We have talked to each other on a professional basis but I finally decided to take it further and ask him out. Just as I had decided to take a chance, the EUM came back into my life out of no where. Now I am totally confused. I really want to see where things go with this doctor but it is awkward to ask him out at work. I do not even know if he is interested or if he is really nice to everyone. Then this EUM ex pops back up and throws a monkey wrench in my life. I know that the EUM will never be able to fulfill me but it’s so hard to let go.
WOW!!!! Awesome article and also the story of my life with my ex ASSCLOWN douche bag who I let downgrade me from girlfriend to F-buddy!! Huge mistake!! But we live and learn and I am now 7 days NC and going strong!!! THIS SITE HAS BEEN A LIFESAVER!!! I happened on it by chance a few days ago and I have not read one article that I could not 100% relate to!! This article is great!! Just what I needed today! THANKS!!!! :):):)