Sound familiar?
- You’re agreeable and try not to be or do anything that would give your date an opinion on you.
- Unsure of who you are and what you want, you rely on others to direct you. You’re also afraid of who you truly are being wrong and so you align yourself with ‘authorities’ (people with an overinflated sense of their own importance).
- You typically audition on dates and are more concerned with whether you can get them to like and validate you than you are with whether they’re a good fit. You’re so busy worrying about how awful it would be if these virtual strangers rejected you and how much you don’t want to have to be in the dating pool that you’re just listening and looking out for any cues and clues as to what will make you ‘better than’ the last person so that you can be the exception.
- The thought of being assertive, voicing concerns, giving feedback and yes at times criticism, as well as engaging in conflict, trigger a great deal of anxiety and discomfort so you’re always preempting it by being pleasing (read: suppressing your needs etc to prioritise theirs so that you can be rewarded in some way).
- You leave all of the calling, planning, deciding on the future of the relationship etc., to the other party. You say that it’s because it’s their job but it’s also out of fear of rocking the boat, fear of scaring them off, wanting to appear “no drama’ but also… trying to limit your vulnerability.
- You tend to go out with variations of your parents and slip into a ‘child role’ in your interpersonal relationships.
These are all examples of passive and people pleasing behaviour that make you ripe for not only being involved in unavailable relationships where the other party is the emotionally unavailable driver to your passenger self, doing everything on their terms, blowing hot and cold, managing down your expectations etc., but it can also place you with controlling partners who will happily leverage your eagerness to please, your unwillingness to step up for you and your reliance on being directed.
Dating is a discovery phase. To opt to hold you back with all of your morphing, twisting, bending and blending, is to blind you to that person unfolding. You immediately give away your power and the interaction becomes about convincing and converting.
Relying on others to direct you is akin to giving these people the blueprints to screw you over. How can someone come into your life and have so much say whether it’s directly stated or implied via their actions, about your needs, expectations, desires, opinions, and feelings. Erm, why are they the boss of you?
Auditioning immediately suggests that you’re not showing up as somebody who is valuable, worthwhile person that’s wanting to be in a mutual relationship. Auditioning makes the relationship lopsided because you put them on a pedestal where the only place to look at you from is above.
Silencing you at times when you really need to step up for you and represent, as well as imagining and predicting the possibility of the things that you fear and reacting what may be disproportionately to pre-empt and prevent these will have you green lighting code amber and red issues. It will have you suppressing and repressing with this misguided idea that because you hold back, they will too or at the very least, they will reward you with the relationship you want.
It’s all very well designating the other party with the job of directing the relationship but that’s to suggest that you don’t have a say in things and also that you don’t have to show up or step up. Do these things with somebody who is reliant on your passiveness to keep things casual, to breeze in and out of your life, and to keep you on a string, and you won’t know when you’re going to hear from them next and/or you will spend your life sliding from one anxiety session to another. I hear from readers who only see or hear from the object of their affections a few times…a year. That’s jacked up! Makes me want to go round their houses and come through their roof intervention style.
Putting your past on repeat by trying to right the wrongs of the past and heal old wounds by going out with variations of your parents just makes a child out of you. It becomes about fear of abandonment, fear of rejection and fear of feeling the old pain. It becomes about not upsetting your parents and that puts you in a precarious, codependent position especially because romantic partners et al cannot fill parental voids. You will unconsciously play out old patterns that keep you stuck. Even worse, when you assign these people with this ‘parental’ authority, they take it and you can end up acting out, even if it’s passive aggressively because of course, you’re not actually a child but you’re limiting your options within these dynamics.
If you’re tired of being on the hamster wheel of unavailable relationships and/or are perturbed at a steady pattern of being involved with controlling people, it’s time to ask: Where am I being passive in my interpersonal relationships?
This isn’t about taking ownership of their behaviour; it’s about taking ownership of your own feelings and behaviour by owning your own. You recognising that you’re passive and getting a sense of where that stems from isn’t to blame you for other people’s behaviour but it will help you to understand why certain people and situations are ‘attractive’ to you and how you effectively slot in.
Once you start being assertive which is stepping up for your own needs, expectations, desires, feelings and opinions with respect, the type of people who have previously got play with you quite simply can’t because you’re not a good fit (read: malleable and compliant).
Our relationships provide a window into understanding what we need and where we need to step up. Where are you being passive and why? Where are you afraid of being vulnerable and how is this influencing your choices and what you perceive as your options? Where are you giving away your power? Where are you still trying to fill voids that were created through inadequate parenting or difficult childhood experiences?
When you reduce your passiveness and people pleasing, you also get off the disappointment cycle and take responsibility for your happiness instead of inadvertently making it that of others. You drive your own life and when you do get into a relationship, it’s mutual and copiloted or you opt out. You stop being swept along and you stop looking for salvation.
Your thoughts?
Updated: Join me in January on my new ecourse, The People Pleasing Diet
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This is me :/ I’ve improved things since discovering BR but I’m aware I still have some work to do. Thanks for the reminder, Nat x
I’m so upset! My ex boyfriend admitted after over 1 year of a relationship together that he never loved me, I was just a “comfort” thing It was never love. He fricking used me to have sex with & for someone to talk to & do things with. I’m angry because he knew ALL ALONG he had no intention to marry me or have a committed long term relationship with me He led me on because he was lonely & tired of being alone. I feel so USED! I’m angry & hurt not only on him but within myself. I allowed myself to continue in a relationshiop I knew was unhealthy. How oh HOW do I get over this?
I definitely have had to learn to have my own back and not do a lot of things mentioned in this article. I see changes in my life and my feelings as a result of a lot of hard work. With that being said life is life and I’ve found myself in positions many times where i get to speak up for myself in situations where i wouldn’t have previously. I feel better now that i do because really someone else’s negative reaction to me making a respectful request isn’t about me. Also my ex keeps showing up after more than a year since we dealt w each other. I just ignore his knocking since i changed my phone number more than a year and a half ago. He caught me pulling up yesterday and was saying how he’s sorry bla bla bla. I reminded him he apologized earlier this year and i accepted that and told him i purposefully ignore his knocking because he is not my friend. He then tried to “bait” me with a variety of topics to get me stirred up so i would want to talk. I didn’t take the bait and went about my evening. Well today here he comes again knocking. He didn’t catch me outside so i again ignore. I don’t know what his deal is but really i think he wants to emotionally destroy me because he certainly didnt care about my emotional well being but only his own wants and desires no matter the cost to me. Of course he would never say he wanted to emotionally destroy me but after everything i went through with him he seemed to feel empowered about the effect he could have on me and my life and since i pulled myself through thanks to kind friends, BR, therapy and emotional work i think he is bothered that my life is going on without his being gone having crushed me. My son said he isn’t used to women turning him down. Really i am nothing more than a game to him i feel at this point. Certainly not a person he respects.
Happy again, what he’s doing is harassment! You should get the police involved
He is on probation and since I do not have concern for my physical safety I ignore him. He had seemed to be on a once a month or every other month pop up trend until this month. Who knows why it has been at least 4 times in November alone. But imagine it will decrease again. Since my feelings aren’t wrapped up in him anymore it is not causing the anxiety issues it used to. But with all that being said if it doesn’t decrease again (I would prefer to completely) then I will need to consider. I appreciate your concern.
But with all that being said if it doesn’t decrease again (I would prefer to completely stop) then I will need to reconsider.
HappyAgain, this is exactly what’s going on with me now too. My ex-EUM is in “the process of leaving his girlfriend” (I wonder what process like this involves since they share no property and were not even co-habitating).
After a year from the day I’ve ended this relationship where I was the other woman and he did nothing to prove his “love” as he used to call it, after a year of crying, rolling on the floor in pain, getting chronic yeast infection from this manchild I’ve finally stopped feeling anything towards him. No rage. And he resurfaces (we work together but in a very minimal contact). He then starts texting me, calling me, skyping me. You name it. And telling me what a good guy he way, how hard he tried and how I was the one faking it. My head started spinning because I’ve never faced such blatant re-writing of history. “I am sorry, you were present? Were you present when I told you I was having a fever and was sick and you said you were too tired to deal with it?”. Etc etc. But then I just could not care less. Was I the one to fake it? I told him, yes, I was. Did I use his good heart and wanted to kill his relationship for nothing (nothing being me, I suppose)? Yes. He just spat those stupid statements at me and I went with it. I know that the ultimately smart decision would have been not to pick up my phone at all. I am not yet strong as that. But I am proud of how fast I snapped out of trying to prove to him that his statements were a lie and it was actually him who used me. I just agreed to whatever he was throwing at me, which made him very very mad. He expected me to argue, to convince him. I then said I had to go and hang up without hearing his answer.
I know that my reaction was not ideal. But, if I may, I felt sort of relieved and proud of myself because I dealt with it according to the (emotional) resources I had at the moment. Also a win for me: I have not tried to analyze what his calling or him “being in the process of leaving his gf” means. It most likely means what all the smart ladies here on BR say – that these guys end up being bitter, middle-aged manbabies no matter what.
Well HappyAgain and Why; I am going through a similar thing 🙁 A guy I was seeing “casually” last year who explicitly stated reasons why we could NEVER be together properly just popped up despite shutting my feelings down over summer. Only he contacted me both explicitly asking for nookie whilst congratulating me on an achievement. This confused me for a bit.
However I responded in the best way I know how to now which was with a mixture of compassion and boundaries I suppose. I realised pretty quickly (this time) that this was not really about him it was about ME. What could I do differently this time?
It may not seem like much but I was able to express how I feel and what I want from a relationship as well as acknowledge what he has said previously on the subject, and all in only a few short and to the point emails. (!) lol! Usually I would have BEGGED to see him, offered him the nookie and lost my mind over it all, not even registering the limitations he had previously stated on a relationship.
Now I can approach it knowing what I want and acknowledging it is just not compatible with what he wants. I haven’t heard back from him (yet) he is probably stunned as the little difference in how I would usually behave is probably a lot more marked to him and what he is used to.
Except it is differnt to me too and how I am used to being. Even though it is scary I know it is a good difference.
So maybe think about how this guy popping up in your lives/staying in your lives is about for you? Is it time to behave differently? Even if just a little? for me the difference was in being able to actually say what I wanted. It was about a little bit of vulnerability whilst knowing I had my own back no matter what he said/says and that I will not let him have the power to make me lose my senses any more.
This has not been easy but I recognised what I had done this week and it shocked me 🙂 in a good way 🙂
Hi Boo. To answer your question about what I think this means to me… I would say it is about me consistently having my own back and making conscious choices about reality and not what I imagine I would like things to be with people. It is about me thinking long term and not short term and the investment/consequences of the choices I make with people. I have had a track record in my life of being too nice to people and finding myself feeling taken advantage of, used and sad about it. With all of this being said I am the common denominator in my relationships and have no control over other people. I recognized I wasn’t being truly mindful of the people I had relationships with and accepting them for who they are (as a complete person) in order to make a fair choice that they were not right for me. I also didn’t always speak up for myself as soon as I needed to. So ultimately, everything I’ve been learning over the last several years, in context with the fact that having your own back is not a one time occurrence, is that this is me being given opportunities to continue to practice applying what I’ve learned. It is more natural now than it has ever been but I certainly haven’t “arrived” and as I continue I am sure it will become even more natural.
Good work on your own progress! 🙂 I wish you the best.
Why,
I think you had a great reaction. I see it as you have healed and moved on. You are indifferent to him. You have nothing left for him. He is an empty spot for you. Zero.
Congratulations for surviving the “loss” and gaining you!
Sofia, thank you so much for your kind words. One of the most positive things about BR is being able to tell your story (which is especially problematic when it means telling you were the other woman) AND getting support. Thank you so much.
Isn’t that all crazy!? I don’t get it but I don’t think people like you and I ever will. I think your reaction is fine. It is all a process. I found myself getting stirred up a bit with all of the nonsense my ex was trying to say the other day because so much of it was like you said re-writing of history and other things didn’t even make sense within the conversation. Some of the things he said he even contradicted later with other things all in an effort for me to take the bait. I honesty considered continuing the conversation in order to correct all of the fallacies but I just didn’t think it was worth my energy. Keep up the good work and being aware of yourself, your triggers and who he really is. Onward and upward! 🙂
Why,
The post where i said “Isnt this crazy” was in response to you. Just noticed i addressed it to Why only in my mind. Lol. 🙂
HappyAgain, agree with LizB in that you need to take out a restraining order on the ex as this is continuous harassment especially him knowing that he is not welcomed. This is a game to him for sure and your tactic of ignoring is clearly not working. Put that nail in the coffin once and for all by letting him be served with restraining papers. Your well-being he doesn’t care about so put safety measures now for yourself (and son if he is living at home) in place. This is definitely not a joke/game anymore so get serious once and for all, and follow through again should he ignore the restraining order.
Hi, Gina. Thank you for your concern. He is on probation and would likely be locked up on a violation if I called. That is the only reason I haven’t since I do not feel physically threatened. I agree emotionally it can be a problem but since I am not tied up in him emotionally anymore it is not triggering anxiety issues in me. With all of that being said he had decreased to 1 a month or two for a very long time and sometimes I wasn’t even here when it occurred (my neighbors told me). I do not know why November has had 4 times already but certainly if this doesn’t drop off again it will become more of an issue and I will have to realistically consider addressing in another manner. I have told him more times than I can count not to come to my house over the last year+ but I wonder if because we were off and on for more than 2 years before that if in his out of touch mind he thinks enough effort we’ll be back on. It’s weird (twilight zonish) if someone told me leave them alone I would. I guess if nothing else I have pride. Ultimately that same pride kept me from being in contact with him again after the final straw! Thank you again.
HappyAgain,
I am hoping you will reconsider taking action to protect yourself from your ex. It sounds like he is escalating his efforts to make contact with you. I’m concerned that he might continue to do so, to the point of harm to you. I know you say you don’t feel threatened, but it might be worth considering that you just never know what he is capable of…even if he hasn’t harmed you in the past, that doesn’t mean he isn’t capable of crossing that line.
He is on probation, so he KNOWS he needs to behave or there could be consequences; yet, he is persisting in pestering you. That gives me a very uneasy feeling.
Tea Cozy,
I have been thinking about what you and others have said about reconsidering (or considering) and I think maybe if i was to cause legal issues then maybe i would be physically threatened. So i think that is why i feel more comfortable ignoring if its an option. He hasn’t shown back up this week so hopefully its over as quickly as the “ramp up” began. Thank you for you concern.
Why is that your problem? He’s harassing you while he’s on probation – that is his choice. I suspect he’s doing this precisely because he trusts you not to act. In the meantime you’re putting his needs above yours.
Happy Again, I see and understand where you are coming from. In reflecting and trusting your own intuition and then weighing that up with the current and ‘historical data’, it appears to me you are considering your own needs and what action/approach serves your own interests. you also appear very open to altering your strategy should his behaviour alter. You are right to trust yourself.
Kriss
It concerns me only because I feel like he will make some problems for me if i do. If you had an opportunity to read another one of my posts where i mentioned what i think he really wanted to do to me in our “relationship”. Ignoring him is working for now. He hasnt been back since earlier this week. I wish i could go into more detail but i dont think it would be good to. I do appreciate your concern. I think you are right he doesn’t think i will call the police. My needs right now are to be safe and i feel what im doing now is the best choice considering everything i know about some things.
Wow, yet again another article that points out exactly what I’ve been doing for so long to myself. I’ve been portraying an image that is not truly who I am to get the validation and love I’ve been looking for all my life. Recently starting on this journey of discovering myself and true love of the self it is clear to me that my happiness depends on me and no one else. My happiness matters and the only way to achieve it is to find the love I’m looking for within myself. Finding that love deep within will fulfill me that I can be happy with or without a partner because having someone in your life should enhance it and not detract from it. Thank you for such a great article and for confirming what I’ve been doing all this time.
It’s been awhile since I’ve posted–just wanted to say thanks for sharing this. My parents had a more detached style with me as a child, so I was always pushing to impress or please others. I still do it and needed the reminder.
I’m kicking myself because I did it in my most recent relationship (among other things I did…argh!) He got frustrated and simply didn’t know what to do. We ended up breaking up (I initiated, and have done so in the past as a way to push him away.)I’ve been seeing someone to work on some of my issues and a period of NC, him and I are trying to be friends. I am fairly sure he is seeing someone else and it kills me, because I’d love to show him how hard I am trying to work things out and how much I still care–but I realize it would be inappropriate and disrespectful. It’s a tough situation to be in, but I trust that everything will work out as it should and that I’ve learned an important lesson to apply in the future.
I can completely relate to this. But my ex was not aware of his own issues, and it made for an unhealthy dynamic. I went NC as well after a short period of distance and realizing how self-destructive it was to continue connection, even if we both cared for each other. He had moved on to his ex-gf, without telling me. It was too much for me so I will continue with NC. I am working on my issues as well, its so hard but I must learn what I need to move on as well. All the best to you! 🙂
Hi Chickpea,
Thanks for the encouraging words. To be honest, I feel a little stuck. Somedays it’s easy to be his friend, and other days I fixate on every interaction or fantasize about him coming back. I can’t go NC because of proximity (in the same neighborhood and uni) and because of our social circle. It’s strange because he said he didn’t want to date anyone when we broke up, and was adamant that I could do whatever I wanted but that he didn’t want to hear or see any of it. Now he’s with this new girl, they are everywhere together and right in front of me. I have even been asked by several people if they are an item and it feels like a dagger to the chest. When him and I decided to be friendly and catch up, he’s made no mention of dating or her–perhaps he figures it’s obvious? I’m not sure.
I thought being “friendly” is the best possible alternative to avoid drama and gossip, at least until I am done with my program. However I don’t know what I’m going to do when I see him and his new girlfriend (I really don’t know their official status, only that they are involved to some degree), especially if they continue to get more serious or if they are out at night. I’ve only seen them during the day so I am constantly anxious about running into them at all these events 🙁
I’m sorry to hear about how your guy treated you–if he’s bounced back to his ex, sounds like he could be avoiding processing his feelings or the relationship and rebounding back to something familiar/comfortable. If that is how he handles difficult situations, you don’t want that kind of guy in your life…no matter how much you care!
I can understand why you would remain friendly, its a hard place to be. Be sure to make the best decision for yourself. I’ve never been able to be friendly with an ex, this was the first time I attempted after a short period of NC. I tried to be friendly, thinking I was over it, but I realized I still had feelings. I thought maybe we could work-it out, and I fantasized about a possible reconciliation. This was all based on illusions and doubt. But then I noticed he was acting different so I asked him if he was seeing anybody, that’s when he told me he went back to his ex-gf and that they have been together soon after we broke-up. It was all shady to me, because we would talk about things in more than a friendly way. I had to remove myself from this dynamic, I realized I was searching for validation in him. Yes that was another reason we broke, his immaturity. Thanks for the reminder!
As sad as it was, I became incredibly encouraged when my father lost interest in me. He no longer saw me as a source of validation, an opportunity for control, a compliant addition to his collection of people who had bought into his idea of himself. From there, I knew that I was becoming incompatible with narcissists.
Step two was setting a boundary, repeatedly, with another taker in my life. Instead of sitting at home wringing my hands about how I could telepathically will the person not to hit my electric fence, I got some balls and turned my electric fence on.
The self-respect, confidence, and maturity it took to get to those two places attracted the right guy to me. I don’t concern myself with whether he is “Mr. Right,” I just am so thankful for him in my life. He treats every day as an opportunity to enrich our relationship. That doesn’t mean being effusively giving or maniacally into me like the first stage of a relationship with an emotionally unavailable man. It means taking a genuine, constant and persistent interest in me and being a consistently reliable, giving, respectful and secure partner. It felt so bizarre at first to be the center of such concerted interest in who I really am. Then I decided I could be this girl. I could be the girlfriend that left the past behind, had a real, full personality to show up to a relationship with, and didn’t need to measure my worth with how much I was giving and sacrificing. I am good enough as-is without the frills. I tried to create drama once, he wasn’t having it, and I realized I needed to shut that urge down immediately. I feel a lot of guilt about my parents, but I had to let go of that and empower myself to have something that I believe is healthier and more enjoyable than what they have.
I also have to be okay with being scared of being really hurt. I’ve been hurt enough times by jerks, might as well try risking being hurt by someone great.
Tangerine, That’s a good way of looking at things. Where you say you’ve been hurt enough times by jerks,might as well try risking being hurt by someone great. Continue to spend time on yourself. Telling yourself that YOU LOVE YOU. Loving yourself makes all the differance in the world as to the quality of people we attract into our lives. Love your post Nat.
I was involved with a woman who waited until after we slept together to tell me she was dating others and intended to continue dating other people. I think she was caught off guard by the fact that I spoke up about how I felt when I told her that delaying her response to my msg, after we slept together, and instead surfing an online dating site was crappy. I told her also that delaying responses had me concerned about her level of interest. Her excuse was that she wanted to think before responding. My msgs to her were short and of the “I hope your day goes well” variety. Yes, I should have asked her if she was seeing other people before becoming intimate with her (I did ask if she was single), but she wasn’t upfront. I get attached after sex and know I wouldn’t have slept with her if I knew she wanted to continue playing the field. We hadn’t dated all that long (less than a month), but I broke it off. It was difficult because I really thought she had potential. I know it was very short, but I know how anxious and hurt I felt, and not only spoke up for myself, but honored my feelings.
I had a similar thing happen. A guy I met thru online, we started dating and he naturally pushed the physical side. I asked if he was seeing anyone else to which he replied no. Later after numerous cancelling dates/being late and no sign on him on Valentines day(busy?!) I had my suspicions that he still had a girlfriend and was still on the dating site, even though he denied this. He said he was just replying saying ‘thanks but no thanks’, he lied to my face. If he was happy with me he would have hidden or deleted his profile.
So after one morning being rushed out of his house, because he had a job to do for his family. I logged on and noticed him on the site again. This told me all I needed to know. He basically strung me along so I ended it.
Good for you! Not only was your person unavailable, but it sounds like he was an assclown, too. Lying to someone’s face is just the worst. You deserve so much better. We both do.
It becomes about not upsetting your parents and that puts you in a precarious, codependent position especially because romantic partners et al cannot fill parental voids. You will unconsciously play out old patterns that keep you stuck.
Thank you for this timely reminder, Natalie. I had forgotten just how much I have done this in the past. But I’d never connected it with my childhood/adolescent mania for pleasing my parents at all costs – always trying to hang on to ‘love’ because it was withdrawn so easily, and so quickly. Talk about a hamster wheel.
Sigh. I am still so, so unready.
But that’s OK, because next week I’m going to try to grill lobster for the first time ever … and that is enough trauma to be going on with, for now!
Today, totally out of the blue (or, if you want to look at it another way, after years and years of therapy, and 30-some-years ‘late’), my father and I had a bit of a heart-to-heart where he told me a couple things relating to the shame and self-hatred he carries around. In the past couple of years we have had a handful of conversations where he has basically owned that he was neglectful, used intimidation, was a bully, etc.
He was so out there on a limb that I asked, in the course of the conversation, two questions trying to challenge my own long-term beliefs: one was, do you think I’m pretty? He said, of course I think you’re pretty. Okay, this man has NEVER uttered those words in my life. He did good today. He didn’t just say, of course. He looked me in the eye and managed the whole sentence. I said, you’ve never said that to me in all my life. He nodded. Second question, did you think I was a crybaby? He said no, but then said a few things that basically indicated that he knew he’d basically called me that a lot as a kid. Believe me, Chez Petite Magnolia was not a place where asserting one’s needs or POV got you much except blowback and belittlement.
I think hanging out with my sister’s baby has given my dad all kinds of pause about how shit really went down btw him and his own babies. It’s a little weird. Finally, my dad sort of gives a shit that I have gone after closed, mean men who get way too much eagerness from me when they tell me I’m pretty or make it clear they find me attractive. Anyway …
Part of what has made me passive in relationships is wanting the guy’s validation so, so much. It’s always felt like I could lose the guy’s approval at any second. Really, when they were only telling me what I needed/wanted to hear as a means to control me, of course, anything I did to assert myself was going to turn them off. And the thing I was most scared of was being a turn-off.
My self-esteem was like, “I know I’m not that pretty, so you’re probably settling, but I know I can please you! What can I do to make up for the fact that I’m a 4 out of 10?” Small wonder that I attracted guys who probably believed themselves that I was a 4 out of 10. (Irony: the most lovely girl in the world can probably make herself that unattractive by being a doormat.)
I have held a belief for a long time that only pretty girls get to assert themselves in relationships. I think I’ve cracked that one with this last Mr. U: he spent a lot of time in our few dates telling me how great I look. This was my hook to him 10 years ago, and kept me around for his EU-ness back then: I’d be like, really? You think so? This time around I was just like, thanks! When he said it again, I said again, thank you!
I could tell that he expected me to be more grateful to him for those compliments. But I have worked very hard on telling myself I’m pretty enough and if confidence is what is ultimately attractive, then that I am and can do! And as a woman who doesn’t need any one particular guy to tell me I’m pretty (except my Dad, sort of, of course, but even then, isn’t it funny that he tells me, and I have enough assertiveness to ask, only after that I know I don’t need him to), now I get to behave and feel like “pretty girls” do.
That means I can say “what I want” and expect it to be taken seriously. And if it’s not, I walk! It’s not about being a bitch, it’s about boundaries.
Magnolia! I too have felt and still feel that way when it comes to my appearance. But I should just say “thanks” next time! The EUM, would constantly tell me ” you’re so beautiful” or “you look so good”…whenever I tried complimenting him (I found him to be quite handsome) he’d say no he’s not, he’s quite average! either he views himself the way I do or he knows that he’s hot or appears modest but deep down knows that he can get it right with any women. In my previous relationship, not once did my EU ex, ever utter those words to me but he was sure to talk about other women he found attractive and it made me insecure and validation hungry. *What the hell Hanna!* i’m actually having a laugh at myself right now, what was I thinking LOL …it needs to stop, I need to work on self-love and respect ASAP!
Magnolia, how wonderful. I know what you mean about those little breakthrough moments. My dad has really changed over his last years, and while he and I will never have ‘that’ conversation, I know he now does think about and regret much of what happened when we were growing up.
My mother is a different kettle of fish, and I think she lives in terror of one of us just saying out loud one day, ‘Gosh, you were a lousy mother’. But none of us will, because we’ve all moved on, and we know that she knows anyway, so there’s no point rubbing it in when someone’s 87.
I have gone after closed, mean men who get way too much eagerness from me when they tell me I’m pretty or make it clear they find me attractive. Anyway …
Part of what has made me passive in relationships is wanting the guy’s validation so, so much. It’s always felt like I could lose the guy’s approval at any second. Really, when they were only telling me what I needed/wanted to hear as a means to control me, of course, anything I did to assert myself was going to turn them off. And the thing I was most scared of was being a turn-off.
Snap! Me too. Closed, mean men. Oh, how sad. I long to tell that young beautiful woman back then so many good pieces of advice, but I don’t think she’d have listened, anyway.
I always believed it was so, so important Not To Scare Them Off, because They Might Be The One. Zero consideration given at any time to my own needs, wants, desires – just Don’t Scare Them Off.
Now, I am glad when I scare them off. How funny – I never would have seen myself feeling this way a few years ago, when I was in thrall to the worst of the EUMs, Trying Not To Scare Him Off while he put the very tip of one toenail in the relationship pond.
Now, I know that if I walk through a graveyard at night, that I am easily the scariest thing there … And that is a GOOD THING!
Well, Magnolia, when you did try to assert yourself you were repeatedly labelled crybaby. You did try but was put down. That was then, now is now. You couldn’t dump your father but now you can dump anybody who disrespects you.
Mags
It’s about time, eh? My dad when drunk, tried to have a heart to heart talk with me. He told me “it’s OK not to be pretty”; I was 13. He told me he was proud of me exactly once, the day I defended my doctorate. He denied his Native half, preferring to see himself as German. When he died, I found his walls were covered with drawings he did of us kids, 5 of me, there were also dreamcatchers hanging everywhere, tote bags with Indian designs. He must’ve given some money (and he had little) to every Indian charity he could find given what’s showing up in his mail.Sometimes folks, particularly men of older generations, were incapable of showing any emotional depth except anger which was “acceptable” for men. Really sad that someone’s inabilities cause so much pain for others. I gave the appearance of passivity as a child as assertion was guaranteed to cause drama, yelling, and often blows. However, the minute I bailed from family, the real, angry, outspoken, passionate Noquay emerged big time. I still deal with the pretty thing myself. Some men have called me beautiful, yet some treat me as though I am ugly. Some days I think I’m beautiful, some days ugly. However, none of this keeps me from going after what I want, saying what I want, and refusing to settle for less. It’s not about being a bitch but rather knowing and valuing ourselves.
Mephista, that and as I got older, the only way my dad would engage me was to argue. It’s like he didn’t know any other way to handle me putting forth an opinion than to “play devil’s advocate” or just plain say I was wrong. By the time I left home at 17 my only model for ‘adult’ conversation with a man was getting into a huge argument, often until I was in tears, or he stormed away from the table; or watching my mother’s way of handling him, which was to avoid conflict/be passive.
Noquay, what a crappy thing to say to a 13 year old. In this most recent conversation, I asked my dad if he remembered an exchange where I was sharing that a guy I had decided wasn’t being straight with me had said that I was “so pretty it’s intimidating.” My dad had said, immediately, scoffing – “No.” For years I felt that moment as him saying, “There’s no way any guy would think you were that pretty.” I had already figured that he probably meant “no, that dude was putting the moves on you, feeding you a line.” My dad didn’t even remember the exchange, of course. He just had no sense of the hundreds of daily opportunities/moments in a girl’s life where she needs her dad’s support and approval. Your dad certainly blew that opportunity when you were 13.
How touching and lovely that you found so much evidence that your dad thought about his Indian identity and that he was thinking of you kids.
As for the whole pretty thing, I know you can appreciate how much N American racism plays into the messages a girl gets about her looks. Eff those subtle and not-so-subtle haters.
What I’m exploring about the affect of “pretty” is a kind of confidence that I have a feminine power I have never relied on/trusted (I might once have said exploited).
If I assume I’m not pretty I never tap into that power. If I’m unsure, but not reasonably confident I’m pretty I might keep testing it, trying to see whose heads I turn/guys I can attract, etc. If I’m reasonably sure, then I can engage, maturely I hope, as though my attractiveness is just a given, at play in almost everything I do.
Whenever I remember I’m pretty, I realize how all of my interactions have been operating with a subconscious “I’m unattractive” at play in them until this point.
I hope those readers who don’t know me understand that I’m practicing believing it as I write. I know “pretty” sounds like a vain little girl’s word to want to work with. But it’s the word that immediately stirs up deep stuff for me, like a lightning rod for where I feel shame.
I for one had to draw a huge distinction between what is CONSIDERED “pretty” by “most people” and what actually is attractive. Conventional ideals of beauty tend to skew bland and boring, and reflect the racism and sexism of conventional society. Very limiting, but that is what shapes a lot of men’s views of female attractiveness. We won’t even get into the ideas of what an ideal woman’s/girl’s personality “should” be like, I haven’t got all day here.
Oops, and the point I had meant to come to was that I have been AMAZED, and that it’s been kind of awful, to feel that very young, powerless anger and fury I have over being excluded from this simple category.
I think I’ll be a much more effective feminist, writer and dater once I actually deal with anger/shame over what I never admitted I believed about those jocks’ taunts: they said the reason I ended up feminist is because no one would fuck me.
Magnolia,
There is a song by Tori Amos that evokes the emotions in me of what you’re describing about the inner wounds of being told you’re not pretty as a little girl. It’s called ‘Precious Things’. One line in it says, ” He said you’re really and ugly girl but I like the way you play, and I died, but I thanked him. Can you believe that, sick, sick. Holding on to his picture, dressing up every day” This song always touched me and expresses how I felt too as a young girl, but I lack the ability to put into words for myself. Anyway, it may not be of much help, but just wanted to throw it out that I relate on some levels to what you’re expressing. As I get older I care less, but as a young woman it was always there.
Mags
I became a feminist because guys would wanna @#$% me yet didn’t give a tinkers damn who I was, that I had feelings too. Now I walk into a room proud as though I am the smartest, most beautiful chick there. If folks don’t agree, screw em (pun fully intended)..
Dear Natalie, This article clarifies every aspect of what I have been struggling with in my relations. I want to thank you for sharing your insight in such an accessible, straight talking and supportive way. Rachel
Thank you! Timely post for me. I’ve been thinking a lot lately about me giving away my power and not taking control of my OWN life. So much in my relationships I let others determine what I should be doing or not doing. I hate that! I’m working on changing that. Trouble is, I don’t always recognize WHEN I’m doing that. Then there is the next step of HOW to change that.
The term “malleable” is exactly how I’ve described myself. I don’t tell other people that I’m malleable but I’ve come to the realization that I am…..malleable.
I must be stuck. I cannot cut this guy out of my life. He’s been so lovely about building me up and taking me down from drama but I’m worried it’s too much. He’s being very patient with my drama seeking unavailable ways but I’m not sure if I trust him. Of course I don’t trust anyone but I am more assertive with him than anyone I’ve ever been interested in. We’re both driven workaholics and he’s oversees most of the year. I can’t tell if we’re both future faking or just both complete EUs. I’m not even sure if that isn’t the major attraction. We hooked up a few times 10 years ago. Over the last year we’ve reconnected as friends but it’s still there. I think ultimately we share many values, honest communication, helping others, being responsible about finances, being open about out dreams, fears, etc. The trouble is the classic hedgehogs dilemma. We’re both highly intuitive and empathetic and fear hurting others. I just don’t know what to do.
I can’t tell if we’re both future faking or just both complete EUs.
You might be both. You do sound very EU, because you’re happy with someone you almost never see. The long distance relationship is a bit of a giveaway.
You also sound like there’s a fair bit of commitment phobia there too. Have you had a serious conversation with yourself about what you really want out of life? I downloaded the pointers for this from this very website recently, and have enjoyed (ouch) using them.
Until you mutually share values like TRUST,RESPECT,KINDNESS HUMOUR toward each other, most relationships, will be dead in the water. Get a better value system And your relationships will flourish!
Thank you so much for writing this. Its just what I needed to read right now!
“YOU WILL SPEND YOUR LIFE SLIDING FROM ONE ANXIETY SESSION TO ANOTHER”
I have been doing this for so long, I am so happy because it is not going to be for the rest of my life, all thanks to BR family and our lovely mother Natalie
When I first read this I thought, “No- I am not really sure where I fit in on this one” I have always known what I want and asked for it. However I have also always been willing to change that if my first request is rejected. I have also felt a CRAZY amount of anxiety asking for what I want.
This does go back to my relationship with my father. Sure he was ‘there’ in that he came over a couple of times a year. Sure I could ask him for stuff but he would always say no with a perfectly ‘reasonable’ answer that I knew was not reasonable at all. I knew this because my mum did EVERYTHING he did not do, as well as her own role. I realised I have taken up being how my mum was in life. I just do everything because I can. I think to myself, its because I am so strong. But in that particular strength lie weakness. I am not able to let others give to me, so I pick those, romantically and platonically that don’t give and I give everything.
I think I am not passive because I speak up but my actions say otherwise. Until recently I was always willing to change my request, bring it down or simply make it my problem to solve.
Lately I have been requesting things in life and not lowering the bar. I have taken note of when my requests are ignored, whats a reasonable adaptation and where I need to hold my ground or bounce. This is DEEPLY uncomfortable for me! But I’m getting there 🙂
” I’ve always been will to change that if my first request was rejected” – that’s me right there. I would always be willing to accommodate the other person. I always felt as if though I’d be such an inconvenience to the other person if I told them exactly what it is I wanted, as if though I was a burden! So I’ve always tried my best not to need others and to ask for as little help as possible, but it hasn’t worked out well for me. I thought I was in control and if I did x,y,z i’d have the desired outcome, but i was wrong, so wrong.
It’s time for change,time to speak up because I am deserving of mutual-fulfilling relationship.
Ditto, Boo.
I thought “oh. don’t see myself in this post”….until I read your comments. I am always the first to acquiesce or make it my problem to solve. In my mind I saw it as a strength – it just did not feel as important to me to have things my way as it was for you to have things YOUR way, so I give in because it seems that YOUR foundation will crumble if you don’t get things set the way YOU like.
Yes, that was a childhood lesson.
And it has resulted in a very small adult life – where I keep to myself, let no one in, and choose to pursue relationships that have a built in exit-door. Because my small world is my comfort zone, a small place that only I control. Because I was never confident about creating a life I wanted – I’m so conditioned to creating what the other person wants.
It’s like I am a born co-pilot and don’t have any idea how to be the Pilot.
So similar to how I feel Elgie R. I’m just learning now how to go about creating the life that I want. To do that I had to move away from my family as the dynamic of me doing for everyone except myself was so strong I felt it holding me back.
I think knowing how to be a co-pilot is a good thing in relationships; we just have to find a co-pilot to work with and learn to pilot our own individual lives.
Its so uncomfortable for me but I take it one day and one step at a time. Maybe start doing little things for yourself – a massage? getting your nails done? cooking your favourite meal? or whatever floats your boat, then gradually keep increasing what you learn to do for yourself. Pick hobbies your interested in etc..
I also have started to try and let people do things for me more.
Its a big birthday coming up for me in a couple of weeks and I get so uncomfortable with people coming to see me and spoil me and spend time with ME. It makes me uncomfortable but I’m going to do it anyway because I know eventually it will become easier 🙂 good luck, keep trying 🙂
Boo, Elgie R, Hanna, I have similar issues and discoveries. I hope asking for what we want is like a muscle that gets stronger, though I’ve been exercising it a lot and still struggle with confrontation. It’s so rewarding though, to find the sky doesn’t cave in, especially when you ask for something politely before letting it get out of control and become a major issue. It can be upsetting not to speak up, because we not only resent the person who is getting their way, but also have ourselves to blame for not saying anything. Part of my learning is knowing at what point to speak up, and when to let things go. I think I can still allow too much discomfort before taking action sometimes, but am getting better at it. Yesterday I had to shush someone in a cinema and ask a neighbour not to store a mattress in my entry hall (!) – both things were bothering me and inner city life is very hard if you don’t fight your corner.
Boo’s comments make me think it’s true that on one hand, we have to learn to co-pilot, but we also have to find the right person to co-pilot with, where the dynamics will work. In a relationship, it’s like you’re both crafting something and once you’ve started, it’s almost impossible to change its shape. Words and even more, actions, have to be very mindful so that when you both go into autopilot, you can sit back and enjoy instead of hurtle towards disaster!
Happy b,
“when you ask for something politely before letting it get out of control and become a major issue. It can be upsetting not to speak up, because we not only resent the person who is getting their way, but also have ourselves to blame for not saying anything.”
I have such difficulty with this. I almost always let it get to a point where I feel like exploding and yes I often end up resenting the other person. I remember how much I actually resented my ex before I ended things, but I realise now almost 3 years and one ambiguous friendship with an EUM later, that I have to speak up, or the world wont know that I exist, better yet, set boundaries and not drop them in fear of losing the other person or making their lives easier for them. I am so done!
Hanna,
One image that had a lasting effect on me, was when a counsellor asked me to lift up my right hand and put it vertically against his. He then gradually pushed my hand towards me and asked how it made me feel. ‘Very uncomfortable’, I answered. When I wonder if it’s time to confront someone, I often think of it. Are we meeting in the middle or is this person invading my space? How much of this is acceptable, why are they doing it? Sometimes, it blows over and isn’t a big deal. Other times it creeps up on you and you realise it’s become a pattern.
Don’t feel hopeless. It’s very painful but necessary to rake over a failed relationship (or 2!), especially when there’s been humiliation involved. It’s the only way to learn. Don’t pressure yourself into a new relationship, transform your life first, the everyday things that nurture you and make you feel in tune with the world.
Elgie – This rang so true for me. I couldn’t have verbalized it any better. Thank you.
*Sigh*…I didn’t realise that my constant battle for affection and wanting fair and equal treatment from my parents resulted in my need for validation from EUMs. I know for sure that my parents aren’t a very good example for me when it comes to relationships and I constantly tell myself that I wouldn’t want a marriage like that, better yet, I don’t want to be like my mother. You should know that my mother has narcissistic tendencies and it drives me insane, ok more like away! So I always thought that I would have to be a certain way (people pleasing)so I wouldn’t drive anyone away or make them feel the way I felt whenever my mother upset me. I always wanted to be the better person and I was afraid to hurt anyone because I knew what it felt like to be hurt and I wouldn’t want someone to feel that way because of me. I am strong when it comes to voicing my opinion, but I feel as if though it’s become more of a battle, fighting to make someone see why they shouldn’t be doing x,y,and z. It’s really tiring and I sometimes feel undeserving and often doubt myself, left wondering what I could possibly be doing wrong to be treated so poorly by these EUM’s. Bless you Natalie!I’ve now realised it’s not what I’ve been doing wrong, I’ve been doing too many rights with these idiots, they’ve never actually earned any of it and it didn’t make a single bit of difference! I now need to do whats RIGHT FOR ME and put myself and my emotional well-being FIRST, this does not mean demanding validation from others or proving my worth, it does however mean that I will give and take where its reciprocated. I got way too involved with the well-being of others and not focusing enough on my own! Most may view this as caring too much, but if not reciprocated , its a character flaw. Givers need to set limits because takers rarely do!
Hanna this exactly was what caused me problems “I got way too involved with the well-being of others and not focusing enough on my own! Most may view this as caring too much, but if not reciprocated , its a character flaw. Givers need to set limits because takers rarely do!”
I heard a saying “Learn to value those who value you” and since I began implementing changes in myself and remind myself of this in addition to accepting people for the complete person they are (good and bad) to make a well rounded choice about the capacity I allow individuals in my life in and taking time to let people unfold I am not experiencing let down like I used to. I understand all you are describing.
All the best.
I saw this quote and felt it was very fitting ” She wished she could rescue the world but at first she had to rescue herself” …I can’t make everyone happy, I’m not a nutella jar.
Omg this article right here! Especially the part about putting my past on repeat and assigning parental authority. It’s almost as if I have known this about myself all along but never could find the right way to describe the pattern. After yet another disappointment with a guy who turned out to be an EUM, I feel it’s high time I take a good look at these patterns which happen to affect even some of my interactions that are outside dating. Luckily, I didn’t sleep with this latest guy and quickly cut him off but still felt frustrated at myself that I didn’t assert myself during communication at the right time and left my feelings and the situation to stew until I was
ghosted, in which I then just went into panic mode and got rid of him quickly. Somehow I had managed to convince myself that I shouldn’t make assumptions and just crack on with my life, allowing the situation to pan out naturally. After all, we hardly know each other, I wouldn’t want to rock the boat, get on his bad side or let him think I was difficult right? Argh! It’s like walking away thinking about all the things I should have said and supressing my shame for being weak and letting it eat away at me- EXACTLY what I did with my dad as a child.
Wow..this is so me. I once had a counselor that said “You work so hard at getting the other person to like you, that you never stop to ask yourself if you really like them.” So true.
I am going through an interesting phase at the moment where I am discovering myself and actually saying “no” to a lot of things in my life. There are moments of sadness that I’m just now, at age 58, making these discoveries, but better late than never, right? ;-))
Rewind, I am with you. I am very prone to this as well but I hope that with the help of BR and counseling I am making some progress. Which at this time means that I am simply able to register these thoughts and acknowledge them. It is essentially what NML says about other feeling too: you pause and stay in the feeling. I am feeling anxious about what this man thinks of me. Because I fear that he might see something he doesn’t like and reject me. And I just breathe. Maybe it looks weird during a date but it is actually good when my dates feel nervous a bit.
This panic and rush to analyze whether they like you and ignoring your own spidery senses and whether YOU like them seems to be the reason why all of the men I went out with were absolutely sure they were the bees knees and that, as NML writes, dating was not a period of discovery but an audition. It felt exhausting. Sometimes I got so nervous during a date I could eat. Now I try to concentrate on the now. When it feels hard to find out or concentrate on my feelings towards the man I am with, I can concentrate on the salad dressing, or the way napkins are folded on our table 🙂 It also helps break the chain of thought of oh-my-have-i-just-said-another-stupid-thing-what-he-must-think-of-me!-now-we-are-not-going-to-have-sex-now. And instead I think of that parsley on my plate and it’s like a breather. Then I can come back and worrying about us having sex in some (distant) future is not crossing my mind. Maybe it’s stupid but it helped me.
I guess the problem is that so much of my willingness to think highly of myself, place boundaries, follow my dreams and wants has been spurred by his belief in me and his advice. With his help I have cut my mother out of my life because she will not respect my boundaries. I’ve stood up to my ex-husband and ended stagnating friendships. He is a good friend and a great sounding board and counselor. I want him because he isn’t intimidated by me. Because he never tears me down, because he is supportive but his love is broken and he knows it. I’m glad that most of my other relationships are stronger since he came into my life but that’s job reason to desire him. It’s foolish.
Confused,
I don’t think that is a foolish reason to desire him. We all would like people who are kind and supportive. But yes, still you have to individually find the place w/ your boundaries,etc. in yourself so that if he is not there you can still be true to treating you well and with respect. You mentioned in an earlier post maybe you are both EU. Maybe you are but this is about you, not him. So if you are EU how can you help yourself heal and what can you do? Ultimately you choosing to love yourself and take care of yourself because you recognize you deserve it will continue to add the same benefits that making the choices w/ his support has. If he is EU as you heal you will become more aware of this and the relationship lacking. Everything is a process and based on your posts you certainly are progressing and sound self aware which is always important. All the best.
Happy,
Great advice.
What happened with that guy?
Hi Allison. Thank you. He hasnt showed back up so good!!!!!!!!
Oh my, this has been me, and though I recognise change happening, especially in non romantic relationships, I still need to take care. Thank you again, Natalie!
So very true. My last serious relationship was the hardest but also brought me the most strength to finally walk away and look at myself first and why I once again ended up with a commitment phobe. Since I have been doing so much soul searching and have been learning to love me and in a way dating me. I’ve been focusing on healing old wounds from relationships and my father and am finally feeling whole on my own. So whole I don’t even care if I meet man for the first time in my life. I am open to it and I feel the fear has finally been released of being hurt but I have no desperation to get my healing from another man. For you ladies looking to heal, I have found great healing in hypnotherapy and meditation. I seriously have barely cried over my ex, because of this inner healing work. It has done so much for me I have decided to go back to school within the year and pursue being a certified hypnotherapist so I can help people do the same and have this priceless peace. It starts with you and at the end of the day we are not victims, we hold the power.
Boo and Hannah,
I can completely relate to you with pleasing your parents. My mom was always the nurturing follower who never stood up for herself and my father is narcissist who only judges everybody, talks about himself as being perfect, and was extremely controlling and verbally abusive to my mother and I. Her and I never had a say in anything and I was always seeking his approval for his high expectations. I realized this is why I have dated eums for 8 years at my life. But at 29 I am so incredibly happy I figured this out and I have time to still get married and have kids with a man that genuinely loves me as much as I now am starting to love me. It’s crazy how you’re upbringing creates your mistakes until you get into such a painful long pattern you have to choice but to look within.
Also to add. The thing that made me link my dad was how my ex was controlling and abrasive and would yell at me when I would stick up for myself and my reaction would be crying like I did when I was a kid! I then realized, omg I am reliving my childhood and he is triggering the same reactions 20 years later !
Its interesting isn’t it? When you finally have that moment of clarity, and you see your childhood in your relationships.
I remember when I first started reading BR and one article in particular, I cannot remember the name now, pointed out how often there is a correlation between your parents and the people you choose to go out with. I had no idea how my parents , particularly my dad fit into that. Until one day it just clicked.
My dad was physically not there. He was also emotionally not there = I therefore picked men who were emotionally and physically unavailable. My ex was always trying to avoid me, going away for long periods of time without me, refused to live with me etc. This pattern also then continued into the next two men afterwards.
I realised further that it was me who let this happen. I was USED to it. I didn’t actually expect a man to be around. I expected them to be absent so that I could do EVERYTHING myself (like my mum)
If I go one step further I realised that I actually even liked it a little bit. I could do and control everything this way.
Just like you Eyes wide Open , I am also on the brink of 30 and very glad that I have seen this pattern now so that I can go about finding a happy and fulfilling relationship.
This was a revelation for me too. Both of my parents were completely absent and when they were present, they were very abusive emotionally. I had a pattern of attracting men who were never around and I too was used to it, like you say Boo. I was alone during my entire childhood and then the men I’d choose lead me to be alone yet again. It’s a pattern I’ve had all my life, where I was ALWAYS ALONE. The last few men I met, I dropped immediately once the dynamic would reveal that I’d be alone again, either because they had a job that would require travel 90% of the time, or because of other issues, causing me to be alone yet again. I’m glad I uncovered the pattern and the next guy I’m going to choose as a boyfriend, I will ensure that this time, he is around.
Boo, Eyes wide open
I honestly feel like crying. The more I read the comments the more it resonates with me. I am so used to being ALONE and always doing everything myself. I never got the attention my other siblings got from my parents and I always believed that their was something wrong with me because of that. It really hurt my feelings growing up and this continued all the way through college too, until I started speaking up and voicing my opinion about how unfair I felt they were towards me. However, what I had to say would immediately get shut down and their response would be that I need to focus on myself and stop comparing. I was always told to help my siblings and be there for them but when I needed help no one was ever there for me and I felt so alone and when I put my foot down, I was called selfish. I am so used to doing everything myself and its seldom that I ask for help but even when I do, its like I have to pitch a sale but had it been any of my other siblings the answer would have been “yes” no questions asked. And I realise this now in my choice of men, I felt the need to be validated and I would be the one putting in all of the effort and when I put up a fuss, their response “you didn’t have a problem with it then, why now?” and that’s because I let it continue for too long before speaking up. Thanks to BR and its members I now know how to deal with things differently and I’ve learnt that some people won’t change and I can’t force anyone to see my worth, I have to find people who love like I do. I still have a lot to work on and I am in the process of healing.
Hanna, I noticed that Natalie is advertisting a People Pleasing Diet online course on the sidebar today – would you consider taking it? Do you think it would help?
I was once approached by a drop-dead gorgeous EUM. We really hit it off. But that evening, he let me know from the get-go that he didn’t want to end up repeating the same relationship conundrum that he always seemed to attract. Now, I was expecting him to say one of the usual complaints guys have about girls, that don’t even apply to me anyway, but no. No, he said that his problem was the super-independent type who, when he tries to step up and “be the guy” (which I read: have things on his terms, be the driver of the relationship, etc.), that they up and left him. He made it clear that if he was going to get in a relationship from now on, basically that he was the prize, the “cake”, etc. I was dumbfounded. I could only mutter something about, that I would probably react the same way (as his previous girls did) too. I was thenceforth relegated to the booty call department. But I wouldn’t have it. So that’s where things ended between us.
Reading this article makes me think back to how strange this experience was, because it seemed that he was actually saying something tantamount to, if you hold back and suppress and repress, I will reward you with the relationship you want. I still can’t help but wonder, how the heck is his current ltr working out?
It’s always nice when people tell you exactly who they are.
It really pays to listen, as well.
Well done!
Janie, thank you for this line ” if you hold back and suppress and repress, I will reward you with the relationship you want”. Just yesterday I had yet again (very angry with myself for allowing it) another conversation with an ex-EUM and I asked him directly – what does your contacting me and asking to talk until the sun shows up and insisting I tell you who is the man I am seeing mean? He’d just badger me with how my love for him was not real, how I did not know what love was. Note: he is still in a relationship with his gf. I told him honestly that before I’d read into this behavior trying to analyze. But right now I was asking him if he was saying he wants me to stop seeing other men (we ended it almost a year ago with him) and whether this meant he love me. I was remembering Nat’s words that them coming back is just a way to check whether they have power over you, not a sign of wanting to stay with you. In return, he waited like 3 hours to reply and sent me 5 texts with some ambiguous sentences basically saying what a great guy he is and why do I have to say all these nasty things. That he does not recognize me, that I’m so full of hatred towards him. And that “things take time”. So in essence – dodged giving a normal straight answer (which could fit ina 5 word sentence instead of 5 text messages).
The reason why your words resonated with me is because he was saying what you’ve brought up: “if you were nice to me and not spit insults at me then maybe I could be happy”. If only I had amnesia then he’d treat me nicely! Oh what a generous offer. Except that there are tons of men on this planet Earth who don’t make it a prerequisite to a relationship that we have amnesia.
Also, in a typical EUM/AC manner, when I asked him the question about the meaning again, he said he was busy and would reply later. 7 hours later – still no reply. Classy classy stuff.
Why, this guy is such an a*hole! If he clogs your pipes even after a double/triple flush be sure to call in a good plumber. I’d also advise using bleach.
p.s. sorry but he really is a piece of sh*t…only one place for him. Uhggg!
p.p.s. the only thing you need to say, if you must, to this selfish bully if he calls again is “eff the eff off”. Then block and NC…forever.
lizzp, love the bleach analogy 🙂
Funny how they can never explain just how you ADDED any value to their lives, yet want to have you there on a curb isn’t it? and then when you try to SEE what value they added to yours? Usually it was only you giving advices and tips when they wanted someone, sharing yourself, being honest etc etc.. and never getting a return just the terrible feeling your alone and waiting for yet another disappointing realization your at the bottom of the list for them,finding out about yet another thing that was hidden, Nightmarish type things they are in reality.
Oh I have 100% and life is better, trying to figure some people out is impossible they might even be secretly gay.. so as of late I am realizing that may have actually been his case for all I know. Right now I am just clear headed and remembering things… but no longer NOT involved in them thank god. : )
Why,
Why are you communicating with this idiot? Not only is he in a relationship, but he is also a complete waste of time.
He is stringing you along. Block this creep!
Why, I agree with Allison 100%. Block him and ignore, ignore, ignore. This whining, selfish, entitled man-child does not deserve and is certainly not entitled to the time of day from you. You are really letting yourself down if you continue to engage with him. He is a nasty and emotionally dangerous piece of work. Please take better care of yourself by seeing him for who he is and cutting him out of your life.
Such a great article, as always! It is our job when we first meet a guy to figure out whether he’s emotionally available or not. And if we spend all of our time, hoping to be chosen, then we aren’t spending our time figuring out whether he’s relationship material. It’s this sort of passivity that gets us in trouble, every single time.
Really, Kellia, It’s our job to figure out what we want in a relationship and get very clear with what you want to experience plus get ourselves emotionally ready for a healthy loving relationship. Water seeks it’s on level. like attracts like.
For me, it was more about my relationship with my ex husband, and failed marriage, rather than my relationship with my parents, which led me to not feeling “good enough”, and a AC/EUM sinking his hooks in me. My self-esteem was so low when I met AC/EUM. And I feel like my life has gone downhill ever since. 14 years I’ve been dealing with AC/EUM’s. My ex husband hasn’t seen both of his kids since 2007. Still un-cooperative with me, cause he brainwashed me into believing that everything was my fault, the 11 year AC/EUM, did the same thing to me, it’s always my fault. To the point where I no longer had a voice. I have gone to therapy, seminars, I don’ have any girlfriends because I’m in my late 30’s, and the girlfriends I used to have, are all living in beautiful homes, have supportive husbands, great career. I’m unemployed, living with parents. And before the EUM’s came into my life, I had a great job, at a great company, good self-esteem, and living on my own. So, I realize the Debbie downer attitude I have, and which I feel I can’t even help it, I just can’t get out of this mess. It’s like people you hear about who have it all, then they become addicted to drugs or alcohol and they just go downhill. I just want to put it all behind me and hopefully, eventually have a happy ending. But not much as seemed to improve in a very long time. So, the reason why I stayed with the last EUM so long, because I never healed from the first one. And the 2nd was for 11 years too long, it’s been a struggle to get back that self esteem, and feeling confident to have a voice, in any relationship. I used to be so confident and strong.
Janie,
it is really confusing with the EUM’s because they really don’t know what they want and what they feel. Sometimes they say things because they sound good to them ( and you in that moment) and you just think. Yes, he is different just to let you know hours, days, months later through their action that they are clearly unavailable. But it is confusing and part of the discovery process while dating. I had one guy tell me, that he doesn’t understand men who do not want to have a real connection with a woman because he stated in a very normal way that he was really concerned not to have a real connection again with a woman ( and that is the moment where you listen up and think, oh. Nice. He might be different)…OR the guy who told me how he really enjoys the aspect of togetherness and feet touching at night in bed (no sex)…and both guys turned out not to be the romantics I thought they were or serious about a relationship with me, but really pushing for physical intimacy that was past my comfort zone (too fast) so I did not continue going on dates (FYI: I did not see them at the same time, just examples of confusing behavior).
I learned so much here on BR and foremost: That actions speak louder than words and that you have to wait until they have a chance to reciprocate effort and a chance for actions. Learning every day and it feels good 🙂
Natalie,
The way you tied all of these ideas together is brilliant!
I’m absolutely delighted with this article. I’m not sure where I m going to place my knife.
Thank you for sharing!!! 🙂
To: Eyes Wide Open. I’m intrigued by the hypnotherapy.idea. I was at F
day 66 of No Contact and starting to feel somewhat better. I celebrated that I saw him.drive.by me and it didn’t make me cry. Then, someone very close to me.told.me something unsavory about my Ex-EUM and I went ballistic and.fired off an angry email and.included the.hurt that rose right to the surface. And the thing is I didnt really believe what the “helpful” person td me and I should.have gone with my gut. But I didn’t, I lashed out, it wasn’t true, what had.been said about him, he didnt answer my email or texts. He xontacted a third party to say WTF. Ugh. I felt terrible about it and I felt hurt that he wouldn’t talk to me, and I almost called.him to say, look can we just talk for a half.hr.? But a good friend talked me out of it, thank god. And though I am not back at square one. I am feeling sad. I worked.hard the last couple months to get over him, I cantr let this setback get to me too much. I am going to look up hypnotherapy, if I dont feel back on track in a few days.
I have been dating a guy for a little over a year. We moved in together after around 9 months of dating. I find myself utterly exhausted if a live in relationship doesn’t end well and one of us has to leave. The cycle of packing things up and leaving leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I hate conflict and do wish everything in my relationship was as happy and at peace as I am with it! But I have to learn to realize when my partner doesn’t feel the same way that it’s not an indication of my doing. But I do have to realize it and learn they may not be for me. After everything he put me through, he desires to be with more than one partner and says I’m too vanilla. I accepted his kids and everything. However I am glad to find this out now. I feel that by being too passive, people look down on me and treat me like I don’t have anything to say about it. Speak up ladies! Xoxo
Good riddance Kelly, this guy sounds like a toad, let him go and have his many women, better off without him/
I find myself utterly exhausted if a live in relationship doesn’t end well and one of us has to leave.
Kelly: statistically, most relationships END. So if the moving out process puts you through such hell, might I suggest that you don’t move in/let him move in, in the first place?
There is a lot to be said for someone like you keeping her independence until she is absolutely sure of someone – till they have proven themselves as reliable, trustworthy and decent – and this can take quite a long time. It doesn’t indicate commitment phobia or a lack of love on your part; it does indicate prudence and appropriate self-care.
I know that a lot of people fake it, until they move in, and then their ‘real’ self emerges, but this again is a good reason for not moving in with someone until they’ve made a solid commitment to you, eg. even engagement, or marriage.
If you are easy-come, easy-go, then it’s another matter, but if you take cohabitation seriously, and it kills you to break it up, DON’T DO IT. You can actually live much more happily without it.
Echoes-
It really works! And as cheesy as it sounds so do affirmations. I YouTube guided meditations and they are great. You feel so positive after them. I also got the books “love will find you” and “calling in the one”. They have made me a new person in two months. I finally KNOW I will meet my soulmate and know my worth, deep down in my soul and not at a surface level. These books have great journaling exercises to figure out your patterns and why and meditations/self hypnotherapy to let go of past beliefs about love, fears, pain. I literally one day after a self-hynpnosis session cried tears of joy bc I felt the pain was finally behind me and am ready for a new healthy chapter in my life starting with loving me first. I swear by it.
Boo, Hanna, and Kelia-
I think sometimes these painful lessons of bad relationships are the ones that make us grow and be healthy for the right person. It starts with healing those hurts from your childhood and then from bad relationships that followed. Once you can heal them you no longer need the outside healing and then make better choices and attract healthier men. I strongly believe this self reflecting relationship was god’s way of preparing me to be healthy for the one to come into my life. Without healing these past hurts I probably would have sabotaged a good thing. I am finally almost “ready” for the real thing. I never was contrary to what I thought.
This is right on time Natalie. Thank you. I have many thoughts about this. This is coming from the heart. I had to recognize, accept deal and heal from my childhood. And looking back on it, I was a lost/abandoned puppy looking for a loving home. In certain instances I entered and stayed in dynamics (cant even call them relationships) that was a carbon copy of myself and my mother or father. I can tell you that within the past year of so, being unemployed long term was the straw that broke the camels back, everything just came to a head emotionally within me and I had no choice to deal with everything! I reconciled my life, as I like to call it. I had a chance to deal with my sadness/depression which turned into anger over my past and how I was treated/spoken to. Seeing how, my meekness made me an easy target to certain people starting with my own mother. Getting in touch with my anger was a huge one for me. I gave myself space and place to just be mad when I have always been the calm, cool, and collect one. Now I say to myself that ‘I am not that calm and cool’ LOL! In my adulthood, I had to learn to be more assertive than I naturally am. Where I used to not say anything and just keep absorbing things (mother-daughter dynamic), I now nip things in the bud because my spirit and being simply refuses to hold others crap like it used to. Starting with my mothers. I constantly say ‘I am not here for this’! And neither is any of you BR nation ladies. ‘Reconciling my life’ has given me a chance to meet, and re-meet ljsrmissy. To gain perspective, to see me for me, to take the time to recognize my strength and what I like about myself. In addition to the fact that I survived! We are survivors. BR ladies, you got up the last time and you will get up this time. AND KEEP GETTING UP!
Good for you!!! 🙂 I’m currently going thru this, reconciling my life. I’m in the early stages but looking forward to changing my life. I thought I was done with dealing with childhood issues, but I found myself in the same type passive and pleasing situations that forced me to take myself out of an unhealthy dynamic. Thanks for the inspiration!
Chickpea- I don’t know if there will ever come a point where we are completely over. Its so many years of learned behavior mixed with personality mixed with temperament, mixed with biology, psychology oh my lol. It is great that you were aware and caught yourself. It also says great things that you know you and your life is worth doing the ‘homework’….because you are!
Thank you for the inspiration – after six months of living in a fog, and with the support of two good and loyal friends, I am moving forward again. I have squandered too much time and my health on a cruel and uncaring man. I will survive and thrive.
Eyes Wide Open: thank you for replying. I have been doing affirmations, it helps so much. Everytime a negative thought about myself.pops into my head, I look at my Affirmations Board on Pinterest. I also have illustrated some affirmations and hung them in my bathroom, where I’m sure to see them! today I felt so tempted to reach out again and just apologize for the whole brouhaha about me hearing gossip and then getting angry and contacting him. But then I thought what the hell, he hasn’t apologized for the way he dumped me via text message etc. So, I don’t have to prove anything to him and I don’t have to be sorry to him I’m just not contacting him any more
I dont think the crumbs are a loaf or will turn into a loaf, but I hardly feel equipped for a loaf (EU isn’t it? I thought i was equipped and perhaps one problem of being with someone EU is you start feeling EU yourself the longer you stay with them because you adjust YOUR expectations of what is worth having in relationships).
I was not passive when this started, I had made the first move, and some subsequent moves. But his EU-ness has made me passive. Now I dont call him almost ever, and i never initiate plans. I am definitely myself, opinionated as ever etc. I just dont drive this relationship at all – where would i drive it, he’s told me he is not interested but he still pursues me at odd unexpected intervals. I think once you have settled for having an ambiguous relationship you are passive – esp if you are the person that was somewhat more interested and/or has been more decisively rejected. Though its strange to be the one rejected and the one pursued isn’t it.
And even this being more interested – I think that I am actually not more interested in him than he is or was in me. I did not build castles in the air, and had I think a healthy level of interest for an initial period of a relationship. The thing is when someone is being ambiguous it totally messes your mind up. I am amazed at whats going on in my mind at how much he has hooked me. And I remember a bf I had, my favorite bf – we liked each other, we dated, then it didn’t work for me, I cut it off. We were friends for a bit, because we cared for each other. We hooked up when we said goodbye at graduation and we never contacted each other again. To me its clear – i could break up with him because he was always honest about his interest, there was no hook of ambiguity. It was a relationship based on mutual liking and respect – and when I felt that I might not be so strongly into it anymore I didn’t go ambiguous and try to have my cake and eat it too, I as kindly as I could let him go. I think this is tricky with EU people because they mess relationships up and surprisingly messy relationships are harder to let go of than good relationships you outgrow.
Very well stated. It’s actually biological. The ‘hook’ of ambiguity. That is how people get addicted to gambling. If you won or lost all of the time you wouldn’t play. If you won all of the time, you’d probably play all of the time (who wouldn’t?) but you wouldn’t be “addicted” and have all of the angst/anxiety/crying jags that go with it. If you lost all of the time, you’d just stop. It’s the win/lose win/lose that hooks you. Casinos are well aware of this. Too bad people aren’t really aware of it when it comes to relationships and sit around aching and wondering whhhhhyyyyyy this person won’t just DO WHAT WE WANT! lol
The change came when I went from depression to getting angry baby lol. I was not good at expressing me negative emotions. Part of it was socialization, the fact I am prissy myself, family dynamic, and fear of being abandoned so I chose that fear over honesty. The thing is that I did nothing short and shy of screw myself over and out and was still left high and dry. I got sick of that $h*t! I realized all of this ‘was not me’ and I deserved better. It already is so. Meaning my worth and value and I need not qualify the worthiness of my God given existence to no one! IT ALREADY IS SO. I have learned that I am am empath and mean, unkind, disrespectful, and abusive people are the oil to my water. I either avoid these types (preferably) or I speak up on the spot even if its just a quick smart arse remark back. I get practice everyday whether I want it or not Lol!
Now, as guys(because not every male is a man) are concerned, I must say that I believe that society (patriarchy) was set up for men by men. Decades before women pretty much had to marry a man if she wanted to have a decent living or any king of living for herself and children at all. I believe men where looked to for so much because men where the only ones ALLOWED to anything (work/vote/go to school) at the time where women were not. Women really had no choice but to marry and stay with man back in the day. If he beat her, abused her verbally/sexually, the kids, cheated, had another woman and kids across town. There was a hefty financial and social price to pay for a woman leaving a marriage. Her being this mans wife/possession was how she fed herself and her kids generally. And women were not brought up to have a sense of self for self but to SACRAFICE herself to the altar of a husband and children. The way that patriarchy has us women socialized in addition to how we pressure ourselves and each other as women is brilliantly wicked! Now it is soooo natural to want a love that we can grow with and in with a wonderful life partner. I want this too… But dang! I am saying this not because I believe that we already to know this as women, but to not how women have worked to gain choice and power over self, just so we could turn it over to men who are not even our ‘friend let alone our husbands or even boyfriends. So many of us are just shells. And I get it, we have been socialized that even if we do choose to get an education, we are ultimately preparing to be wives.. Someone that belongs to a man…not just ourselves as separate and individual beings with a whole entire universe of likes, dislikes, hopes, goals, and desires Of. Our. Own. We have been socialized for attachment, not being single.
I am saying allllll of this to say….that traditionally women haven’t been taught how to like us….only to be liked. What would that look like? We were taught to be for another, not for ourselves. To do what is best for us in our souls and spirit? What in the heck is that?! Now if women were not taught much (up until recently) than how little have men been taught?!! Especially in terms of their ‘feeelings’ and ‘emootions’ lol. There are men who have actually done thier ‘homework. To land the plane here, in the past I was a young woman who didnt quite know who I was, who believed that I was supposed to give and be ‘lead’ by guys who in reality had less direction and sense of self than I did. What I am saying is that I believe that women have been socialized to be ‘lead’ by ‘men’ who are for the most part, not equipped for the job. I have to keep it all the way funky lol. Guys know what society says they are supposed to be, but I also believe that eve they know they are not equipped for it. Being able to provide was their golden ticket, and a woman’s only ticket, but now many/enough women can do for herself. Many guys couldn’t locate their left booty cheek from their right booty cheek. There is good ol Mr. Peter Pan. The 30, 40, and 50 year old, over aged, rusty, frat boy who no matter how old he is, he apparently doesn’t see anything wrong with talking like he is a teen in the boys locker room. NOTHING hits him that he is too old to be doing this. Many guys are Never Never land guys…talk to them about ANYTHING but REAL things. Don’t you go being a boring Debby downer by attempting to approach him all of that REALITY and stuff that doesn’t go towards bringing his favorite movies, porn, or video games to life. Then there is the ego whore/maniac. I believe that each man wants power, control and influence. Most would prefer like a celebrity of athlete. They want to praise, worship, women, money, and power and thrills like Lebron, Bill Gates, Donald Trump, David Beckham, Brad Pitt, and Denzel Washington…… Why do you think men love sports so much? They are socialized, programmed to compete and conquer, not cooperate like women. We know the average man doesn’t have all of those things…But that doesn’t stop him from wanting praise, worship, a thrill,to be able to play and game and out-think the ‘opponent’,and power. They want a clear winner and a clear looser. I I think the experience conflict when they pair that desire with the reality that they just plain old suck often times lol. However, they still want/need their egos fed at all costs. That is where us women come in for these AC’s. And EU’s. These guys are the consummate actors, plotters, and manipulators. They are emotionally barren, emotionally unintelligent/aware, or unstable, or they hate their mother/women….but they still need that ego stroke….from a woman. We fallback women, or healthy women who just don’t know ‘the game’ serve as the consummate ego dildos, container for his issues, thrills, and opportunity to huddle up, strategize a way to out-think their opponent…… So he can declare himself the ‘winner and you guessed it….get that ego stroke fix.
ljsrmissy -really get what you say and especially the idea of us being socialized for attachment.We have to learn to be in a different way, and create lives that have love and understanding in them, and that manifest itself in anything but -our conventional standard one size fits all model which western society endorses.
Even if we do iron out all our learnt negative paterns and modes of opperating and we do step up to ourselves, the majority of society runs on wired and instant gratification. Few people know how to be, and when you slow down and want true intimacy and connection many scarper.
It’s a better road to go down than a life of EUM’S and Arse clowns, but it is hard, because ultimately you are going against the whole vibe of western capitalist society.
LOUISE-I agree with all that you said. Let me first reply with this clip from a recent Iyanla Megafix.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGAjgPCqRaI
Lsjr and Louise
I think the whole thing is not that these guys suck per se as are totally lacking in insight. They are frustrated yet really do not understand why. Instead of upping their game in life to match the socioeconomic progress made by women over the past few decades, a good many, at least older men have chosen to stay in a role from the 1950s and are then baffled by why it doesn’t work. Their biological hard wiring dictates that they be the providers, protectors, competitors, etc yet sadly so many cannot function in this realm. Instead of like women, embarking on a journey of self awareness and improvement, they lash out. Really sad. Get this all the time here. My neighbors think of and have actually called me “the rich bitch on the hill”. One had said something to the effect that it wasn’t “fair” that I have this house, my car, and they do not. To one, I finally had to tell them, and kindly as possible, that I have three college degrees, worked very hard, sacrificed a lot to earn them, I am not involved with drugs, no DUIs, have pretty much kept my nose clean in life, successfully competed for my current job. Sometimes life is choices. I worry about how our society is becoming less socially adept due to collapse of community and increased dependence on social media for “friends”. We desperately glom onto folks without seeing who they are first because the dominant society has so little to offer; culture/connection has been replaced by consumerism in a scenario where fewer and fewer can really afford to consume. We don’t know who our boy/girlfriends are and then are baffled when we are disrespected/mistreated. This has really come home to me here; the one time I tried to date a local he said “I don’t care about your values”; the dude who stalked me had almost bragged about abandoning his own daughter and now, his aging father. That this would not go over well with someone supporting her own dad and who’d raised her own brother was not even on his radar screen. He only saw my rejection of him as an insult and reacted with rage. In regard to Capitalist society; I have been working for years to empower our poorest, most unhealthy population. I constantly run against the grain of the status quo by stating the solutions lie outside the cash economy and making parallels between our town and the developing world and between our towns history and that of the colonisation of not only folk in Africa, Asia, but of the Native folk here. We really, in all aspects of life, need to look outside the box.
NOQUAY-
I agree that there are a huge segment of males who instead of evolving and adapting, are having a collective temper tantrum that would rival any toddlers. I see the ethical, character, and moral decay myself. And to have personal responsibility and accountability… forget about it. True story, used to frequent this bar and the owner was looking to hook up with me (and every other woman). Anyways, he sat on his married arse one night and told me that ‘If we were to hook up, because he like a challenge, (I guess because I had been coming there for months and he hadn’t slept with me yet)that he would say to himself that ‘she is one classy lady”. LOL. He went on to say that because if a woman was to sleep with him on the first night, he would think of her a slut. …..Jesus be the life coach! Lucky me, that his married ass was going to bestow the title of ‘classy’ upon me because he didn’t get in my pants right away. This man is the same man who said he had 8 beers at another bar before he came in to work at he bar that he owns/co owns. This is also the same man who told another patron that he has a daughter that stays 5 minutes away from his bar that he hasn’t seen in two months. Like you, amazingly this man didn’t seem to fathom why I didn’t want to go to bed with him. He just got upset.
All mouth and no trousers.
May this dude get an STD that causes him great pain in unusual places. His poor wife. A good many folk dig their own grave and are totally clueless. Multiple rejections by all and sundry fail to register. Ironically, “abandoner” dude is one of a small subset of educated men here and as such, should’ve known better. One would expect such behavior from the pool of functionally illiterate ex-miners here who never got off the mountain. This guy was well, travelled, a wealth of experiences and there’s no excuse. Perhaps my upper Midwest upbringing plus traditional teachings make me a harsh judge of all forms of irresponsibility and lack of empathy. One had obligation to others, to ignore that meant you were very much ostracised. It’s as though we have devolved into a nation of self centered adolescents.
I just want to share an example of classic assholery. I had one ‘encounter’ with a guy a few months ago. While I’m not proud of it, and have clearly faced consequences, I’m also not ashamed. We were, I thought, upfront with each other and responsible adults, he seemed like a nice guy and he’d made it clear he wasn’t looking for a relationship. But it emerged, just before we met a second time, that he hadn’t been straight with me about his status. He was officially single, but was also sneaking around on someone he was living with in what is clearly an ambiguous relationship, and to my horror, he seemed to relish the idea of lying to her about where he was going.
I said that was it, no more. Whether or not he told her he was committed to her, he was still sneaking around. I also told him that I didn’t want to waste my time on meaningless hook-ups anyway, and I was looking for a proper relationship now, but that was fun.
I tried to keep things amicable as we live in the same neighbourhood and we had things in common to talk about, but he would text every now and then, and ask to come round. I insisted I would only meet him out somewhere, would he like to go for a drink? Then he would just ignore me. So he tried to come around again yesterday on some pathetic excuse, and when I said I didn’t want him to, he basically texted abuse – that I’m cold hearted and is this my normal way with men to see them once? So I replied yes, if I don’t want to see them again, and then told him he was wrong not to respect me and that I don’t want him to contact me again.
In the few months since we met, he hasn’t paid me one compliment and this insult made me think he might even be influenced by the world of PUAs. This guy honestly has the charm of a cockroach. From what I gather, he has no respect for women, he believes they should serve all his physical interests but has no interest in pleasing them, and he has no interest whatsoever in friendship. The irony is that he is doomed to a life of bad sex because of his limiting behaviour!
I actually feel a bit threatened by him now because he seems so soulless. He evidently struggles with the idea that a woman doesn’t get attached to him, he wanted to hook me and use me for his own needs, and can’t bear that I just walked away and closed him off. All too often we hear the ‘fatal attraction’ story that women are supposed to get clingy and obsessive, but what about guys’ awful behaviour, isn’t that just as common and dangerous?
So believe me I’ve learned my lesson, I 100% am only interested in proper relationships and nothing casual, but more than anything, I want to vent and share this and show that some people really are terrible, as we already know!
Cheers to you Happy B.
You handled the AC in textbook fashion. Up next how to loose and AC tutorials on Youtube! Lol at the charm of a cockroach! Oh and he tried it with the you are cold line. Little did he realize that your name is not Please’y Patty. Congrats to you for opting out what would have been a god awful telnovella as you wouldn’t not only have to contend with his foolery but his little live in fallback girl. I bet you she thinks that ‘they’ are working towards something solid….lol.
Happy B,
I think it is a good example of a$$holery and there are so many reasons why this dude’s tactics work, but here are some:
1. If you are a woman who puts other people’s feelings before your own, you might end up in bed with this dude because you don’t want to hurt his feelings, or you want to tend to his feelings, instead of tending to your own feelings because….
2. If you are seeking external validation and approval, you may decide to sleep with this dude, so he will approve of you and validate you.
3. If you don’t know what you want, you might decide to sleep with this dude.
4. If you think his disappointment is based on the fact that he thinks you are so great, and he must have you, can’t get enough of you, then you might end up in bed with this dude.
5. If you care about what other people think, then you might end up in bed with this dude.
6. If you value other people’s opinions over your own, then you might end up in bed with this dude.
7. If you are horny, you might end of in bed with this dude.
8. If you have an overactive guilt thyroid, then you might end up in bed with this dude.
9. If sex is your hook, then you might end up in bed with this dude.
10. If you are emotionally insecure, you might end up in bed with this dude.
11. If you take the blame for other people’s poor behavior, so you think this situation is your fault, then you might end up in bed with this dude.
12. If this is your pattern on repeat, then you might end up in bed with this dude.
13. If you have weak boundaries, you might end up in bed with this dude.
14. If you are betting on potential, then you might end up in bed with this dude.
15. If you have low self-esteem, low self worth, then you might end up in bed with this dude.
16. If you believe you are a ‘bad person,’ then you might end up in bed with this dude.
17. If you are a Florence, a people pleaser, a …, then you, yup, might end up in bed with this dude.
and on and on….
Some guys pull this crap all the time. They attack you emotionally; they turn things around on you. And women do it as well.
GiGo, haha yes, and they’re all interlinked. I would have definitely been his booty call if this happened 10 years ago. I would have found him exciting and kinky, and confused his persistence with attraction to me. I used to tell friends I found pushy men attractive. But why this desire? All of the above – emotionally insecure, low self esteem, seeking validation, I would have bet on potential too.
I’m so happy not to find that sexy anymore. I haven’t read 50 shades, but from what I’ve heard, it’s about that kind of fantasy. And I think this asshole is playing into that fantasy and it works with some women.
Happy
You handled this exceedingly well. This dude is a doyche 5 times over. You’re right; why is it that our behavior is called into question, especially if we are operating on info that’s deliberately false and yet no one chastises these dudes. Last week, in a meeting with our boss, our boss, referred indirectly to the ACs latest conquest, immediately recognised his error, back pedalled, making it worse, then said I looked “grumpy”. He has some idea what happened to me, he knows I was horribly hurt, it wouldn’t take too many IQ points to figure out who given our ages and that the other same aged colleague is both married and morbidly obese. AC damned near got fired for not doing his job, while Noquay, despite hurting big time, trudges along, doing not just her job and much more. Suddenly she’s Ms.Negative and he’s the bees knees. Just seems like we older chix are in a no win, crazy making, situation no matter what we do.
Happy,
Well done. The only point I would make for all of us is that if a man is living with a woman regardless of the degree of affection shared or his penchant for games and lieing, I would not consider him “officially single”. He’s “unmmaried but involved and unavailable”.
Tinkerbell, you’re right to make this point for all of us.
He started off saying she was his tenant, which is perfectly normal in this ridiculously expensive city – then that they’d once had sex but it was over (I said ‘are you sure’, he said yes, and we went ahead, so I was wrong here), then after this first encounter, that he’s told her they’ll ‘see how it goes’ and they regularly sleep together, he’ll have to sneak out or she’ll get angry (LOL!) etc. What I gather is that he must have assumed I must have no moral compass or resolve, once I’d slept with him. He was wrong.
Great point Tinkerbell. If it comes to light he’s involved with someone on some level then to my mind he is unavailable- that is – not single insofar as I define it. Notwithstanding how he chooses to present the situation to others. In fact if he talks in an ambiguous way about an involvement as part of his Declaration of Singlependence, whilst trying to get into my pants, that would be a big AC red flag right there, as it was for Happy b.
Noquay, yes, women of any age seem to face greater consequences and true that it’s no win – you lose no matter how well you handle it, whether you lie to everyone and pretend it’s fine, or are true to yourself (heaven forbid!). Wishing you strength, though you don’t need it!
Noquay,
Yep, the good ole boys are alive and well, but I’ve learned to ignore it, and grit my teeth under a relaxed face, ‘along with Natalie,’ when it hits a nerve.
Working on a project, surrounded by men, I offered an olive branch. Well, my olive branch of “please stop trying to railroad me” was met with
feigned understanding, zero reform, and a smack on the head with its branches. Lucky for me, I had the power to terminate the services of one AC who not only ignored my demands at the table but also whispered a few inappropriate sexual remarks into my ear and…. Yep, I had to wait and wait to quietly get rid of him. But I’m still at the table with another brilliant, upper-middle-crust-AC-narc who enjoys toying with me. He’s a master manipulator, and I used to be his easliy distracted, reactive student. I just do my best to focus on my project, stay on guard when I’m around him, go merrily on my way, and celebrate my own achievements.
Hang in there, Mirror
I have pretty much started a policy of working on projects solo, reporting to the larger group when I feel like it. Even without the AC debacle, there are too many egos involved, with widely different opinions as to where the institution should go. I am finding as I age, I am a much better innovator than follower anyway. Folk criticise me for no being a “team player”; I am a really good team player, just not with this particular team.
Yep, this man is an a$$hole, plain and simple.
I identify with you regarding the emotional abuse: my last argument with my ex was about my disapproval of his unwanted sexual advances. He knew I was celibate because I told him straight to his face, and he even engaged in some of my religious practices.
I know that feeling of feeling threatened–I’m glad you took it seriously, and you had your own back. Good on you!
Keep taking care of yourself.
@HappyB
happy b, I’ve read your post a few times now, because I’m not sure what you’re telling us.
I tried to keep things amicable as we live in the same neighbourhood and we had things in common to talk about
So hang on. You wanted a no-strings attached, one-night (or more) stand as a mature adult who can make choices and then walk away because you find out he’s cheating on a partner, and then you start TALKING to him? About things in common?
This may be where you’ve gone wrong. This looks like you’re actually interested in HIM, the person, and want to continue things. So it’s no wonder he’s contacting you and trying to continue things; do you think perhaps you were sending him mixed messages?
In the few months since we met, he hasn’t paid me one compliment
But he was a booty call who wasn’t looking for a relationship, wasn’t he? If you want compliments, I think you need to pay a professional …! (or so I’ve been told, anyway)
he has no respect for women, he believes they should serve all his physical interests but has no interest in pleasing them, and he has no interest whatsoever in friendship
But he was a booty call, wasn’t he? Perhaps you are the one being unrealistic, in wanting a pretend ‘friendship’ with someone who you approached specifically because he didn’t want a relationship, and you were fine with that?
I understand that you wanted to keep things amicable, eg. you don’t want to be stalked by a psycho, but I think if you decide to stop having booty calls with someone who’s never been anything but a booty call, then you need to keep your expectations realistic, and then NC is the way to go.
I am NOT having a go at you personally; I am genuinely puzzled by this post, because he doesn’t strike me as an asshole; he strikes me as someone who’s trying to play by one set of rules – which he thought you agreed with – but you are trying to play by another set of rules, and you seem to have changed the set of rules halfway through.
Ethelreda, sorry if I wasn’t clear. There was no talking to him, no civil conversation at all, after I found out he was sneaking around. We’d only talked and had things in common that one time we met, so BEFORE then. So there were no mixed messages at all from me. He would initiate contact and ask to come round, I would say no firmly but politely, that would be it for a week or so then the same again. Really simple messages with no semblance of friendship from either of us. If he lived far away, I would have blocked him right when I found out he was sneaking around, but as he lives near, I just wanted to make life easier. I would find him less troubling if we could say hi in the street, and maybe we could get over it and chat to each other some day (but I never said this to him).
The reason I’m talking about compliments is because he’s acted like he’s entitled to come round, almost like he’s nagging his mother for another chocolate bar, and then had been nasty this last time, rather than say something like ‘I really enjoyed meeting you and would like to see you again’, or something along those lines, like normal people would.
My main issue and reason for posting it here is that his attitude works with at least one other person, and his messages were appealing to a people pleaser, trying to tell me I’m a bad person not letting him come round, rather than he wants to see me because I’m fabulous.
So I have no doubt he’s an asshole, it’s that simple.
ljsr, thank you so much! I just hope I’ve lost him for good now.
Another thing I perhaps wasn’t clear on is that he approached me, and I didn’t meet with him specifically because he didn’t want a relationship – I just didn’t want a relationship WITH HIM, so we were on the same page.
I’m being kind of defensive, and this is because there is no way I am worthy of that treatment and I wouldn’t want anyone else to think they are. In my view, everyone should be decent to each other, especially when they’re neighbours, that is my ‘expectation’, booty call or not. Maybe that’s naive, but I have when younger hooked up with people and they’ve been perfectly good and respectful to me afterwards, even become friends once or twice, I have never experienced this. I guess I’m fighting the feeling that I deserve this, yes I was reckless, but still, I don’t.
Happy B, To me it reads like you’re saying he became an AC in his behaviour towards you the moment he disrespected you by pushing against your clearly articulated boundaries. Perhaps you are seeing initial indications of his ass clowny tendencies and attitudes during your first encounter and the time between that and when you cancelled the second, retrospectively. Perhaps you sensed or saw some nastiness and selfishness in him that was at odds with your initial reading of him as the ‘nice mature responsible, upfront and non ambiguous adult’. The revelation of his g/f would have brought some of those prior little nasty man indications into focus? Casual or otherwise people always unfold over time. Good on you for ending what had become untenable with your values and your self respect.
The last time I tried the casual thing was Xmas 2012 – one night only. I was disconnected from myself and using him to try and forget a heart break. I knew he only wanted booty. I sensed no outright nastiness about him. It probably worked for him (sex just for sex) but it did nothing for me, just a waste of time. I often forget I ever did this, it was so unmemorable. Since becoming more healthy I now consciously know that for me ‘casual sex/relationship’ is nothing more than a misnomer.
I forgot to add Happy b, yes I think he certainly is an a**hole, his behaviour is just plain pathetic and nasty, little boy lashes out with tanties when he can’t get what he wants when he wants it. What a W*nker! (and will probably end up as one permanently from what you say …eeeewk).
Happy B, lizzp, the Unready,
I have always felt that there are guys out here who’s juice is not worth the squeeze…even for casual/booty call. Even getting a piece of tail from them would entail too much/headache and foolery. I think this is Happy B’s case.
Once we find out a guy we’re interacting with is an asshole, and we continue to engage them, then we become “enablers”. We allow for their behavior to continue. We let them get away with being assholes, if we keep interacting with them. We have to see the part we play in the dynamic and how we are the enablers.
Kellia,
Exactly!!
Kellia, I don’t know if this is addressed at me? I agree with your general point for sure and perhaps I’ve been an enabler in that I’ve responded to messages, but was always firm on saying no and explaining very clearly where I stand and why, possibly a bit too nice though.
I didn’t want to be melodramatic because he hasn’t physically threatened me, but as much as i aim to be amicable and friendly because we’re neighbours (and am angry with him for blowing that) – I would say safety is the major consideration in this. I’m frankly unsettled by his attitude and that’s why I suggested going out for a drink to break the ice, but would never let him back in my house.
Happy B – Oh no, my post wasn’t addressed at you. I was simply adding to ljrsmissy’s comment. I think you are doing fine, putting boundaries and looking out for yourself. Keep up the good work!
ljsrmissy, spot on, that’s an understatement!
lizzp, ditto about the casual thing. I was in a strong, happy place, but partly trying to ‘move on’ as there’d been no one since the major AC, and he literally landed on my doorstep and seemed harmless and grown up. But it was absolutely a waste of time, I learned that no matter how much time goes by without sex (and it was a LONG time!), I don’t need to remind myself what to do! It was pointless and as you say, unmemorable, except for the nasty aftermath.
Happy b, yeah you don’t forget how do you?, even after long stretches (two years for me if I count the unmemorable event, over three years otherwise). Just like riding a bike again/getting back on the…er..horse (so to speak)…. I suspect that forgetting how to do/respond sexually after long periods of abstinence is a common niggling worry or even fear amongst women in western/modern culture, perhaps especially as we grow older (I am 46) – but it’s been unfounded in my experience. Thanks for sharing your story about your recent encounter – I relate to many of your experiences and thoughts. I am still on my extended break from any dating/going out with men as dates and am comfortable with that at the moment.
lizzp, yes it’s an important lesson. weirdly, because I didn’t realise until later, this was exactly 3 years after my last time, with the ex-AC. I know this because it had been his birthday. And I’d had it in my head that going beyond 3 years would be a disaster, like I’d stop being a woman or something, so maybe my subconscious pushed me into it. Completely unfounded fear.
What else I find interesting is that I refer to both as ACs, but they are polar opposites. The ex was a player and a charmer. Knew how to please women and would shower them with warmth, openness, humour and compliments when they were his dish of the day – disingenuous of course, and when the illusion shattered, I realised he was profoundly dishonest.
Then there’s this clown, who is cold, lacks sensuality and warmth, no pretense of affection and interest, trying to get by on the steely corporate schtick instead of the happy clappy one.
So my lesson is that a normal level of niceness is better than good!
Thank you for listening, I’m sure we’ll keep commenting x
Jah Cure – Unconditional Love Lyrics
Artist: Jah Cure
[** feat. Phyllisia Ross:]
[Intro:]
El amor es puro*
El amor entiende lo que nadie puede entender
Quiero amarte para siempre
Enséñame como amarte incondicionalmente
[Chorus:]
You never see it coming
Then the next thing you know… unconditional love… unconditional love
She ain’t looking for no diamonds
Ain’t digging for no gold
Just somebody to love… unconditional love
Woaaah
[Verse 1:]
1st of January
Said you starting over
Your heart’s been in remission
Making a new beginning (yeah)
And it’s been six months since you got sober
Taking a new position
To make a better decision
Then you head to the corner store
And forget what you went for
Just as soon as he says hello… hello
[Chorus:]
You never see it coming
Then the next thing you know… unconditional love… unconditional love
She ain’t looking for no diamonds
Ain’t digging for no gold
Just somebody to love… unconditional love
Woaaah
[Bridge:]
No necesito nada ni a nadie si te tengo aquí
Te amo para siempre, te amo eternalmente
Tú me ensenaste como amar y por eso te agradezco
Te amo papi, te amo mi amor
[Chorus:]
You never see it coming
Then the next thing you know… unconditional love… unconditional love
She ain’t looking for no diamonds
Ain’t digging for no gold
Just somebody to love… unconditional love
Woaaah
[Verse 2:]
The fourteenth of February
Got a cold shoulder
From someone so unexpected
You left your heart unprotected (yeah)
Then you built the China Wall
Guard it like a soldier
People would call your phone
You act like nobody’s home
[Phyllisia:]
And I went to the corner store
And I forgot what I went for
Just as soon as you said hello… helllooo
[Chorus:]
I never saw it coming
Then the next thing I know… unconditional love… unconditional love
I ain’t looking for no diamonds
Ain’t digging for no gold
Just somebody to love… unconditional love
[Chorus:]
You never see it coming
Then the next thing you know… unconditional love… unconditional love
I ain’t looking for no diamonds
Ain’t digging for no gold
Just somebody to love… unconditional love
Woaaah
[Outro:]
No necesito nada ni a nadie si te tengo aquí
Te amo para siempre, te amo eternalmente
Tú me enseñaste como amar y por eso te agradezco
Te amo papi, te amo mi amor para siempre
Be my baby, my one and only
Y te voy a amar incondicionalmente
Para siemprete… te amo mi amor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38A1NZEHpxY
hanna, I get it. I’m sorry there’s no time for me to go into detail but I understand less than treatment from family. i’ve endured this all my life. my sister (uneducated, married a nice guy but one she doesn’t love young to provide for her) treats me appallingly & she enlists at least one aunt in this also. I only have two aunts. (my bio father is unknown & my adopted dad who adopted me at 6 mths old rejected me age 13, when I discovered he was my adopted not bio dad, to protect his family secret of intending to lie & tell toddler in his new family after divorcing my mum that he was her bio dad also. this was obviously not so & id been lied to the same way. he feared id tell the toddler the truth as she got older so flatly kicked me out of his new second marriage family. my mother is seriously mentally ill, BPD & thick as thieves with my sister, who has also been hospitalised more than once for mental illness, PND).
I have already lost one aunt as my choice to walk away after very poor treatment. im starting to feel shades of similar behaviour from other aunt, but not entirely sure yet. im reserving judgement & hoping im just being overly sensitive. if I lose my remaining aunt i’ll be totally family-less. my sister wilfully poisons these relationships. she admits she’s jelous of me & what ive achieved re career, study & $ independence. sis was the prettier of us both as a child but had meningitis as a baby & sustained a mild learning disorder. she was kept back a grade twice in primary school. you wouldnt think it now though by her repugnant opinionated ways. she’s very like the aunt im now estranged from. does nothing but gossip daily on phone with that aunt & opinionated but no education. 2 classic examples. votes conservative but her hubby is the working poor (he’s educated but she, not uncommonly for mums of slightly lower intelligence insisted on SEVEN kids, against medical advice & despite increasing medical complications. one died these were so bad soon after birth. sad but for the best. severe brain damage during traumatic premature bith. two have disabilites but she kept pushing out babies to get govt tax $ not understanding this in no way offsets long term cost of raising a child. or not caring. doesnt love hubby anyway so not concerned he’s working himself to an early grave. this was a way of her getting $ apart from hubby. sad. she regrets so many kids now. they also bought their house in one of the lowest ses areas in the state. she INSIST it’s a ‘great area’ & much better than various much more affluent areas. including suburbs closer to where I bought my place. gvt SEIFA data re socio economic, unemployment & educational disadvatage though does not lie. she cant be told anything & treats me like shite).
I’ve been nc with mother & sis for a while now. I broke nc w sis recently. big mistake. same shite, diff day. makes me sad.
I wish I could legally empancipate myself from my mother, sis & adopted father. why let them fantasise im family to them when im not. I feel angry & hurt. it pushes me to succeed though. I dont need or want these ppl in my life.
Love this by Nic W. ” Some men chase women they don’t want for the same reasons dogs chase cars they can’t drive”. Lol, right?
Just to acknowledge, once you do truly let go at a very very deep level of these EUMS , the grief is overwhelming, for all the time you wasted on nothing . Anger is there, but the grief for all that lost time is the true killer.
I’m really angry about the lost time and energy, so I’m just allowing myself to feel and express it. I don’t feel anger toward myself, though, because I understand why I did what I did, that’s not to say I don’t own it; I’m not going to beat myself up about it. I’m handling the consequences, and I’m giving myself the love and understanding I need to get through it, so it’s onward. Yes,anger is a normal part of grief.
I’m.frickin’.angry.about.the.situation: childhood, failed relationships, lack of certain skills, ….
But, at the same time, I feel so grateful, prepared, eager, and excited to continue on my journey–my life.
Yes, you’re right Louise. It really hurts.
What has helped me is to rethink my own approach to this, and make the following resolutions:
1. No time is wasted time. If I learned from this bad experience, even if it took me a while to do so, then it’s clear that this was the ONLY way I was going to learn this lesson.
So it took me five years to learn a lesson that will last me a lifetime? (estimated another 40 or more years) Hey, that’s actually quite good value.
But next time, I will try to learn more quickly.
2. It’s my time now. Grieve for a while, but be ready to move on ASAP.
As long as I keep feeling angry about them wasting my time, this anger and grief will eat me up, wear me out, and waste even more time.
As long as I keep letting them set my agenda on how I will feel today, they may as well be still in my life.
You will need, one day, to decide that it’s time to declare an end to this, draw a line across the ledger, and consciously move on from them. You have a lot of living to do for yourself, and you are going to need all your energy to do it!
Ladies check out this Nat Throw Back!
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/the-2007-a-z-of-men/
Unready and mirror of my faces, thanks for your wisdom and wonderful words. It’s that healing spiral which takes you back sometimes, because you still have tiny bits of holding on to clear , but each time you emerge stronger, and ready to forge ahead in a meaningful way.
Childhood, failed relationships, lack of skills, yes all of that, oh well will just have to pass on my insight to the younger generations that I meet.
Not having a family and that no longer being a real possibility is hard, but one just has to keep on being imaginative and re inventing the concept x
Louise, thank you about mentioning the healing spiral. I feel better just reading this. I am 9 months past breakup and something happened (not sure what) that triggered lots of sadness in the last 3-4 days. Not sure what it is, but I feel I am experiencing everything very fresh like I have never healed. The good thing I know from my experience that these episodes come on less frequently with time, they go away quicker, and also there is a realization that it’s ok to spiral. It does diminish. Knowing that keeps me going. Ladies, who are going on to about a year of recovery from the breakup, don’t get discouraged. Sometimes it gets scary, “Why?? Am I experiencing all over again? Not again!!” But no, it’s just the remnants. I know it because I can compare the intensity and the inner dialogue of now and let’s say 4 months ago. It does get better. Just wanted to share.
I’m working on being more active when it comes to relationships. I think relationships are partly about luck and who you run into, but keeping the relationship going and finding one that works? It’s about making conscious decisions to find the right person for you. When I was more passive, I’d been stuck in a bad relationship on and off for years…. now I’m actively getting to know people as they reveal themselves and seeing if that fits with who I am and my boundaries. Still meet some people who don’t quite fit me, but at least I’m aware of it now! 🙂
It’s not always so easy changing that ‘pleasing’ type of behavior however recognizing it as you have mentioned is a huge step forward.
I hate to blame childhood on every little personality disorder but this does often stem from wanting to please as a child – being a good girl and basically doing as you were told.
It’s only as you get older and well yes, wiser, that you see the futility and total waste of time of all this. I have now encouraged my own children to always have their own opinion and be their own person whilst still being respectful of others and their opinions.
Wow! This is me. I was dating a widower and he was not emotionally available. I chalked it up to him still grieving for his wife (who had been gone 4 years by the way). But his behaviors were not the result of being widowed. He was always like this! Now I really feel sorry for his passed wife! My passivity only played into his EU. I will not do this any more. I take full responsibility for my part. Thank you for the post.
I just have a question. Please respond. You once wrote that assclowns lose their minds over women who have boundaries and basically don’t put up with their crap. So I keep thinking if I were more confident and had more boundaries maybe my assclown n me could have worked because he would have respected me more? Do assclowns fall in love with girls who “they lose their minds over” or is it just that they are out of control. Can a girl with boundaries and confidence make an assclown change?
The woman/man with boundaries and confidence who doesn’t put up with crap won’t want an AC. This woman/man respects and cares about themselves enough to bail when they recognise an AC. In answer to your second question, the only person you can ‘make’ change is yourself. No short cuts.
Are all girls involved with assclowns fall back girls? I understand assclowns are attracted to girls who play hard to get or don’t want them as much as fall back girls, but do assclowns eventually lose interest in ALL girls? Do they cheat in ALL girls or just fall back girls?
Jennifer, yep as Elgie says ACs “don’t do mutual”. It’s hard, nigh impossible, to do mutual if you’re not emotionally available to yourself. You sound as if you want mutual. If that’s the case it’s time to alter your focus.
Thank u Lizzp. I guess I just keep wondering if an assclown wd be an assclown w every girl? Do they fall in love w girls who hv boundaries n don’t put up with their shit? I keep thinking if I had more boundaries he wd hv respected me more n been nicer to me n fallen in love w me. Or do they just keep it more on the down low w those types of girls n cheat n disrespect behind their backs?
Dear Jennifer, check this out:
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/getting-in-the-head-of-mr-unavailables-and-assclowns-if-i-was-that-bad-she-wouldnt-be-with-me/
I found it very helpful and sadly true.
And also: https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/why-doesnt-my-emotionally-unavailable-guyassclown-see-a-committed-relationship-with-me/
and the like.
If you take your time and read enough of Natalie’s articles and Readers’ comments, you should be able to have a clearer view of the situation.
Also, in my opinion, “girls who play hard to get or don’t want them as much as fall back girls” are the female counterpart of assclowns, and I wouldn’t really bother trying to become like them or envying them.
Best wishes, V.
Hi Jennifer,
Can’t answer that question as it is meaningless to me and I don’t see the point in asking it. To me it’s the wrong question, an unhealthy question and you might want to look at why you are asking it. Others might have something to say about it. Good luck.
Look, “Do they fall in love w girls who hv boundaries n don’t put up with their shit?” is null and void because healthy people won’t give an AC the time of day. Those who are with them and becoming healthy will be in the process of getting the eff out of the relationship. Perhaps the bigger question that deserves your focus is something like “why do I feel so not good enough about myself that I am focussing on how to pretzel myself into what I think someone else wants of me”. Sorry if I’ve read you wrong, but that does appear as the context around the question.
Oh, Jennifer. I know you want to think that there was something you coulda woulda shoulda done to make him love you back, but there is NO MAGIC FORMULA. Yes, ACs will jump through more hoops for women who are demanding, but that woman will need to remain demanding throughout the entire relationship. She can never relent and relax into a mutually giving relationship, because ACs don’t do mutual. So stop thinking that if you only knew how, you could’ve pulled off that one trick that would’ve turned your AC into someone who loves you the way you want. And, in my experience, the ACMM’s wife kept constant tabs on him, calling to find out where he was, and some of those times he was with me, and I am sure that other times he was with someone else….so….demanding does not result in faithful.
Thank u for the replies. I greatly appreciate it! I know I’m still in that unhealthy, “what if” thinking phase. I’m so jealous over an ex he used to live with. I guess bc he seemed to hv respected n wanted her more than me. I try to tell myself it wasn’t any better w her. I mean when he lived w her he wasn’t working n he had his daughter with him at that time. He had his house up for sale but told me he spent a lot of time at his house to get away from her n his daughter. But when they broke u he seemed heartbroken. It bothered me that she was able to trigger his feelings like why did he love her more than me I think. Maybe bc she rejected him? I just keep thinking if I were stronger w him he wd have respected me more n fell in love w me. I’m jealous bc maybe he treated her better. I don’t know if he cheated on her but then again he texted me sex talk when he was still w her so I guess that’s cheating? I keep trying to blame myself for the reason he couldn’t fall in love w me. I keep telling myself that even if I were like his ex n respected myself he may hv been a little nicer but he still is who he is. He just may hv hid his cheating or disrespect more w her. I keep blaming his treatment of me on my own treatment of me. Like if I respected myself more he could hv fallen in love w me. But maybe these guys r who they r. Do u agree that they wd still cheat, be disrespectful, n get distant w every girl?
Thanks again everyone. I really appreciate the feedback. I guess I’m used to the saying “if u do t respect yourself, no one else will,” so I keep thinking if I had more self respect, maybe it could hv worked:(
Elgie what is ACMM ? I understand I hv to start thinking in a healthier manner. I wish I could hurt him the way he hurt me. I don’t mean physically and certainly nothing criminal of course. I just wish I could hv been strong enough to bail before things got more humiliating–catching w another girl. I wish I could have been strong enough to tell him to eff off. It hurts so bad that he doesn’t give two thoughts about me. So I feel like if I were the one to reject him at least I wd hv some self respect n maybe he would hv respected me more:( I am angry at myself for putting up w crumbs but yet Im sad n want him to miss me n hv more respect for me. I know I hv a long way to go in my thought process. I keep reading the posts n Natalie’s articles.
Jennifer, just on here quickly and can answer. ACMM stands for AssClownMarriedMan. There are many wonderful articles here that address self respect and boundaries, having standards, and recognising and *taking seriously* the damage to self and others that comes from low-to-no self worth and self esteem. All you need to do is plug in a few key words in the search box. Happy reading.
Thank you, Elgie.
It just hurts so bad that someone who says they love u can move on so quicky n give not a second thought.
Jennifer, I know and do understand. This time you need to stay with the pain and there is nothing to do but go through it. After a time you will be able to begin to look at what brought you into your experience of humiliation with the AC in first place. Later you will be able to move forward having learnt something very valuable. All I can offer is to feel your pain and bring yourself into focus. You will get some clarity but it will take time. Treat yourself with some care and compassion at this time.
And don’t make contact or accept contact with the AC. That would be the antithesis of treating yourself with care and compassion and respect.
Thanks Lizzie. The sad thing is that I feel he doesn’t even n won’t ever make contact w me again. I know it’s unhealthy, but that makes me sad I guess it’s bc he thinks I will always be there whenever he wants no matter how long it is. I wish one day he will contact me when I get strong so I can tell him I’m not interested anymore or that I found someone else. I dream n hope for that to happen one day so that I can feel like I am finally the one to reject him!
What does AC don’t do mutual mean? Does that mean AC only want what they want-they don’t want to give?
I was doing so good this past week but now I’m missing him n I’m depressed again