Something I’ve noticed when I listen to people describing their relationships is that they talk about what the person does and often link it to what a previous partner wasn’t doing.
“They text/call me regularly.”
“They don’t stand me up.”
“They’re not treating me like a booty call.”
“They seem like they’re over their ex.”
“There’s no harem with this one.”
These rather funny descriptions provide clues about what they deem as their barometer for feeling comfortable or even compatible.
While this stuff is all well and good within the context of a mutually fulfilling relationship, when focused on too much, we won’t really have a sense of what makes a relationship work, never mind what is making this (our) relationship work.
Sometimes we focus on these details because we’re unsure of what to look for emotionally and in our relationship’s overall feeling and substance.
We might get so caught up in breathing a sigh of relief that the person isn’t messing us around like a past partner that we fail to acknowledge genuine positive qualities and characteristics as well as components of our relationship or fail to acknowledge incompatibilities caused by clashes in core values.
For example, I hear from many women, in particular, who, because they got dinner, flowers and romance periodically, it took them months to a year or so to realise that they weren’t in a relationship. They fell into the trap of relying on what I call ‘hallmarks’.
A relationship with hallmarks isn’t an automatic precursor to a relationship with the landmarks of healthy relationships — intimacy, consistency, progression, balance, and commitment.
The landmarks, along with shared cored values and care, trust and respect that lead to love, are what are present in relationships that not only stand a chance of going the distance (in whatever form that may take. Remember that marriage isn’t the only form of commitment!) but are present in relationships where we feel secure, content and basically happy on a consistent basis.
The hallmark issue shows itself around meeting friends or parents, sleeping together, going on holiday, etc. Humans often regard landmarks as indicating where we’re at in the relationship. They’re not; they’re hallmarks.
There was a time when you could typically expect that these (well… minus the sleeping together) were strong indicators that the relationship was/is serious. Now, however, casual relationships (ones that we actually know we’re in and those we don’t) are far more prevalent. There isn’t as much societal pressure to commit. Some people also use, for example, their parents/friends to test out their partners or sabotage the relationship due to fear of commitment. It’s as if they smile to your face while secretly pulling the lever that will set off the commitment panic button and bring about their self-fulfilling prophecy. Some also do it because it enables them to get what they want in the present, a.k.a. Future Faking and Fast Forwarding.
When we experience these hallmarks within the context of a mutually fulfilling relationship with the landmarks, they’re emblematic of where we’re at. If, however, we don’t have the substance of the landmarks, it leads to confusion and problems.
A relationship without the landmarks isn’t going to work. That’s not to say that we won’t try to make it work. Often, we persevere because we’re focused on investment and/or betting on potential. Still, if we substitute hallmarks for landmarks, we significantly short-change ourselves.
We can like and love someone, but if their actions undermine intimacy, balance, progression, consistency and commitment, we’re trying to row a boat with one oar.
As I explained to someone recently, it’s the equivalent of showing up ready to get your hands dirty in the relationship, going, “Gimme 5, ” and being left hanging. Each time you try to show up and say “Gimme 5”, you won’t raise your hand as high as before. Eventually, you end up meeting the other party at their comfort level— unavailable. After all, no one wants to be left hanging, so you stop expressing your true self, including your needs, and start holding back.
It’s very easy to focus on acts like texting or what they say or the types of things that they’re doing that you think symbolises a relationship. If you’re finding this exhausting, look at how you feel, who you are in this relationship, and the net result of everything that’s happening. Are you experiencing the landmarks?
Here are some clues…
Are you emotionally open with each other and willing to be vulnerable? Are you both getting emotionally closer?
If it feels as if you take a step forward and then there’s a gradual reshuffle to the status quo of their emotional comfort zone (going into reverse), ground yourself. Try to ascertain what is going on in your relationship. Are you both at a similar stage, or are there things that your partner is not voicing but showing in their behaviour?
Are you being yourself?
If you’re not, that’s in itself a far bigger problem than the relationship itself. You cannot know where you’re at, including whether you share core values and whether you’re truly intimately engaging with your partner if you’re afraid of being seen, which equals fear of vulnerability. You need vulnerability for intimacy and commitment, plus you can’t have other landmarks either because you’re not being them.
Can you have conversations and discussions without barriers? If something is bothering you, can you ask questions and be vulnerable?
Loneliness is something that happens when we stop expressing our innermost feelings and thoughts. It’s a horribly lonely feeling when this happens within a relationship. If there are barriers to expressing your respective feelings, get honest with yourself (and them) about why these exist.
Have you had experiences of conflict, criticism and disappointment and navigated your way out of it?
The true test of a relationship isn’t about how it operates when you don’t know each other or the going is smooth; it’s about whether you remain a team or are divided by life’s inevitables. You also get a true sense of who a person is when you say or show no or when life doesn’t go their way.
Do you both honour separateness in the sense that you are interdependent in the relationship but remain individual entities? Do you know where you end and they begin?
If not, this creates a balance issue due to codependency (excessive emotional reliance). If you lose yourself in your relationships, this means that the landmarks [of healthy relationships] are absent.
Are either of you in a child role or are you both engaging from an adult to adult perspective? Do you feel superior or inferior?
If you’re very aware of power in the relationship, this is a code red alert that something is very wrong. It’s either in the way that you’re both conducting the relationship and/or the way that you see yourself in the relationship. If you’re not equal, you’re not copiloting the relationship. It means you’re definitely not being you, and you definitely don’t have the landmarks.
Are there illusions and bullshit in the relationship?
If yes, this puts a wrecking ball through the possibility of the landmarks. You know you’re being you when you can each name and own your bullshit and stand together in an honest place.
Are either of you living in the past?
Not in the present, hence not showing up, hence can’t really copilot the building up of those landmarks.
Do you both take responsibility for your own stuff?
It’s got to be two of you or there’s going to be big problems. You don’t want to end up playing Florence.
Are you getting on with your own growth? Do you want him/her/them to evolve, or do you feel threatened by the possibility of it?
If the answer s no, you will be too enmeshed to engage from a place of love, care, trust and respect. You won’t have the self-esteem that gives you the confidence to be yourself and enjoy your relationship.
Do you give wholeheartedly in the relationship, or are you keeping score?
If you do the latter, it quickly leads to resentment. It stems from people pleasing to create a tipping point that you, on some level, hope will make them cough up the relationship or person you want.
Remember that we’re all different and express ourselves in different ways.
If the net result of how you each engage together is that you’re sharing emotionally in the relationship and collaborating to copilot your relationship in the same direction while being your true self and accepting them for who they are, that is what matters.
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Love this. Fantastic list which feels kind of daunting. I hope I can have a relationship like this soon. 🙁
I wish that for you too, weezy!
Very thought provoking, Natalie. I know I’m not ready to trust anyone again. I just recently learned that Narcissists (like my ex) are so toxic they actually can drive their partners crazy. They are so intuitive in picking out victims, they can find people like codependents and enablers who are in fragile condition to begin with, then they intentionally trigger PTSD, amnesia and a host of other conditions agitated by their emotional abuse. It’s like emotional rape. They know what they’re doing, too. It’s fun to phuck with people’s lives for some, I guess.
i think that is so true. i actually felt like i was going crazy and my behaviour in the end was definately beneath me. I felt like i was losing myself and all my values and resorted to doing things that i would not tolerate seeing my friends do, just so i could keep him in my life. I even recall saying to him ” how did you know that i would respond to you the way i did”, this when i thought we were on the same wavelength sexually, intellectually, in a lot of ways really, little did i know he was using manipulation and mirroring behaviours to get in to my head, heart and soul
Karen, I hear ya! It is crazy making and stressful. Gonna take a lot of time and self work before I am ready to date again (if I ever am). Thankfully, I’m very content getting to know and love myself instead. It’s very freeing to let go of the idea of ‘having’ to meet someone.
After years of unhealthy relationships, it’s hard to even know what I should expect in a healthy relationship. Thanks for some guidelines of things to think about and look for in a healthy relationship!
Cathy I feel the same exact way.
Thank you so much for your writings and advice. I first found this site 5 years ago after a messy breakup and your posts are what got me through it and helped me to move on from him. I should have known better than to have gotten involved with the same guy again 2.5 years later. So here I am, again, pouring over your writing, trying to ease the pain of losing Mr. Unavailable for the second time. What I’ve learned about myself this time is that I’m clinging to that relationship because I have a hard time quitting things. I have a hard time giving up when I feel that I’ve invested so much of myself in somebody else. Time, trust, emotions, money. I guess I don’t want to feel like a failure, and that moving on means the 2 years we were together were a waste. Anyway, this isn’t related to your recent post, but I wanted to take the opportunity to thank you. You’ve been more help to me than any friends or family. So thank you.
“It’s as if they smile to your face while secretly pulling the lever that will set off the commitment panic button and bring about their self-fulfilling prophecy. Some also do it because it enables them to get what they want in the present a.k.a. Future Faking and Fast Forwarding.”
Yes, secretly.
So sometimes the only way to figure out what you were “in” is when you’re expeteiencing the aftermath.
They smile in your face while inserting a knife in your chest. And some are bold enough to get on bended knee and propose while still screwing around with A BIG SMILE ON THEIR FACE. Mind blowing
“It’s as if they smile to your face while secretly pulling the lever that will set off the commitment panic button and bring about their self-fulfilling prophecy. Some also do it because it enables them to get what they want in the present a.k.a. Future Faking and Fast Forwarding.”
Yes, secretly.
So sometimes the only way to figure out what you were “in” is when you’re experiencing the aftermath.
indeed. The being blindsided was the hard part. I had invested so much in this man, that it was hard to think he wasn’t the man I knew him to be and so trying to repair led me to give him a second chance. The pain of the next event was too much though and I realised I was losing myself. No contact for three and a half weeks and I’m doing ok but still think about him too much. Will it get easier?
Hi Paloma,
I was in a relationship with a narcissist for 3 years off-and-on. It’s been almost a year of No Contact and sometimes I still think about him, but VERY RARELY and only to think about how glad I am that I got out of that situation. It will get better once you build yourself up and accept that the guy you were seeing was a Grade A asshole and not for you.
Like with the absence of any toxic poison from your system – yes it will get better but it will still hurt while some still remains in your system and works its way out – the shock of the reality can make you feel confused and focus on them – keeping them in your system artificially whilst you are not physically in contact with them. My advice from my experience – keep refocusing yourself back onto yourself every time you drift – every time you feel you are doing something for him or to gain his approval or someone linked to him – do something that will gain your own that has no links to him whatsoever – the more you do this the easier it becomes.
I had those dating landmarks when I dated in High School and through my 20s in St. Louis. Then I traveled the world and when I started dating in the late 90s I could not find compatibility. ..and settled for a few Bad relationships.
I’m with you Karen in sense that after I got over a N, I am content to not date at all. I’ve focused on other things in my life and am making milestones without a man in my life to share them with. Oh well, maybe next week? I am happy & living with No Regret.
So True!! Until I read your post, I didn’t realize I was using previous boyfriend’s behaviors to gage current relationships. I dated a man that expected me to pay my own way no matter what we did, to include paying for my birthday vacation as well as paying for him to go with me. So the next guy I dated seemed so special when he actually bought me a birthday present and would often bring dinner to my house. However he would always run off after sex (rarely spent the night) and if we ever went out it was only do something he wanted to do. Not to mention if he so much as thought I was going to bring up something that bothered me about his behavior…he would run off and not contact me for a week. So my most recent boyfriend seemed to me he was sincerely interested in a “real relationship” because we spent many nights together, did fun things when we went out, and the one time we had a disagreement, he didn’t run out on me. Of course looking back the disagreement was after he talked non stop about his ex wife and I asked if he felt he was really ready for a relationship. But because he stuck around I was elated and surprised. In reality I tolerated a year of flakey behavior, broken plans, one-sided conversations where he talked only about what was going wrong in his life, topped with him constantly bragging about his adult daughter (but never a compliment thrown my way.) It took me a long time to figure out I wasn’t in a real relationship. I was just a Sounding Board with a few extra benefits.
If I had previously been in solid, healthy relationships I would have immediately recognized the poor quality of this relationship and realized that it was never going to get off the ground.
I admire your self honesty in here. As long as you articulate out loud what went wrong and what were the illusions that got you to stick with him, you will keep growing from each experience you have.
I love your description of being a Sounding Board with benefits because I have found myself there. It really raises the issue of the “okay” or “meh” relationships that are not overtly toxic or painful but leave you asking ” is this really where I want to be”? I left my last relationship because of that and then got a toxic response from the man. He went on a drinking binge and blamed me for it. I really felt like I dodged a bullet and that “meh” feeling would have ended up in a toxic place anyway.
Fantastic insights, Natalie. Thanks so much for sharing. So good to know that am headed in the right direction. The previous guys I dated exhibited a few of these behaviors which is why we had to break-up before even going for deeper conversations. It’s good to know that if we stay true to ourselves, own up to our truths and are willing to take the right actions-even if highly uncomfortable, we will get there. If nothing else, am sensing a stronger sense of self love and self respect within than previously. Hugs!
Great advice Natalie!..
I’m currently on a dating hiatus and working on myself but when I do eventually get back into the swing of things I shall be checking this list!!. 🙂
Bang on! Relationships involve 100:100 efforts, not 50:50. Good to have a frame of reference to check against.
After marriage to a narcissist for 18 years, escaping with self-esteem at zero, I have continued to have one relationship after another (not continuously but with years of gaps) with EU men who progressively seemed better than the last in some kind of way. The first one after the marriage merely had to seem interested in me for me to fling open the doors of my house, my heart and my wallet to him, and hang on in there even when he began to display signs of abuse and control. I broke my heart and had a complete breakdown when he walked away having slept with a mutual friend and where I’d had to call the police after he nearly strangled me. Still I wanted him back. (Embarrassed to say this now, how little self-esteem I had, how co-dependent I was.) However the next man was kind! He was funny, he said he loved me! He proposed within two months, he lived two hours away,he began to phone less, visit less, he finally said that he couldn’t commit, the woman for him would have long, dark hair – mine was short and brown (red flag bunting was out all over the street but I chose to look the other way!) The next one was kind, he was funny, he was spiritual, he future faked, he lived an hour away, he was more intellectually compatible, he never raised his voice – all improvements on the last but he lacked emotional availability, he was still married, despite being separated for 12 years, he never phoned, out came the red bunting again, but again I looked at the ‘positives’ as compared to previous men, and hung on in there even after we had no relationship, squeezing out a friendship, spending enormous amounts of my time and emotional energy trying to ‘work out’ his behaviour (just plain old typical EU, commitment phobia) be there for him, feeling sorry for him, and eventually giving him house-space and a warm bed, plus food, company, love, caring, respect etc for a year when he was unemployed and without a home. From which he walked away when he got a job, with a small wave and a ‘we weren’t in a relationship anyway’. Pick myself up from that and, for my final failure at looking after myself in a relationship, met my most recent EUM, a man I knew as a teen-ager (friend of my bro) and boy did he seem wonderful, he did all the fast-forwarding, future faking, wooing. He made me feel wanted, liked, loved, special! Salve to my poor parched heart. The hallmarks but not the landmarks, because hallmarks are all I’ve ever encountered. So thank you Natalie for this post, it has really shown me where I’ve always gone wrong, the BR site has been a turning point in my realisations and growth. I always felt that I was self-aware and emotionally aware and ready for love, and always thought that I had to give, give, give to receive love in return. I’m 53 and know that I have never experienced a mutually loving, caring, respectful relationship, I was always taking the wrong route, the one strung with red flag bunting.
I loved your post, KK. Man, it just reaches into my soul…I relate to (metaphorically) running up to each man with the plea/hope/hunger of “You’re the one who’s going to love me back, right?”
I think there’s a screenplay in your story. Though I’m not sure what the ending would be.
I guess our stories are still being written. And in order to avoid a “Looking For Mr. Goodbar” ending, we have to take control and create a singularly wonderful life without a partner.
Thanks Elgie, my sister has also said that I should write a play or short film about this, (she’s in the business of film-making/documentary and I am a writer of sorts). I don’t know what the ending would be either … Today I got the keys to my new home in a new city and I am daunted and a bit fearful, but a new life awaits, armed with my BR knowledge I feel determined to give, give, give all that love and respect and care to myself. Happy to be single and looking forward to valuing myself at last.
Good luck with your new home and life KK.
Thank you Oona, I appreciate your kind wishes.
Great post. I discovered BR after yet another unfulfilling relationship but thinking this time that I’d cracked it because the man in question did some nice things and hung about. In the end he was inconsistent, had weird hang-ups and an addiction he kept hidden from me. He was also quite nasty on occasion and didn’t let go of ex’s easily – kept a flame for them and wanted to see them. I was just so grateful to be with someone who offered a bit of companionship and flashes of niceness plus the occasional hint of ‘a future’ that I hung in for a year, becoming more and more anxious and unfulfilled. I got out thanks to BR and a lot of hard work with a therapist. I realise I had a lot of issues myself that made me choose to be in such pointless and unhappy relationships. For now I’m happier on my own. But these are good tips for knowing what we should look for and expect in any relationship that is worthwhile. A relationship at any cost is not the way forward. BL and posts like this one have helped me make at least this much hteadway. Thank you Natalie.
Oh Smiley. I really know how you feel. This was me, all over – talk about living on crumbs.
Make some more friends. Friends are GREAT, and ease loneliness so that you won’t be so ‘grateful’ for the crumbs next time, because you’re getting real feeding from other places and things in your life.
It kind of recalibrates you.
yep gives you the balance back again
I love Natalie’s posts and think they are very helpful in bolstering self-esteem and knowing the guidelines to look for so you don’t get sucked into some godawful slimy thing for years… but I will be honest. I think Natalie found a unicorn in her husband. I think some women do find unicorns. I think many, many of us will not. While we are sitting here blathering on about boundaries, self-esteem, etc, male message boards all over the world are doing one thing: Trying to teach men how to get women into bed. To this end, they use subterfuge, ‘negging,’ being ‘Alpha,’ etc. I think it’s time we ladies realized that men and women are, for the most part, at complete odds about what we want out of the other sex.
Once was a time when we stuck a deal – they gave us commitment, marriage, and security. We gave them sex.
Now we give them sex. They don’t need to keep their end of the deal anymore.
Don’t get me WRONG. I am NOT saying that all marriages lead to commitment and security – many do not. But men don’t even need to keep up the PRETENSE now that that sort of thing is on the table. They are getting everything they want and if you don’t want to give it to them, someone else will.
Let me explain my week of ‘dating’ – which basically explains the last four years. Met one guy, he told me that he didn’t feel that cheating with the same sex was actually ‘cheating’ (my long ago ex cheated on me with men). I said ‘Well, I disagree. I was really devastated and it as cheating to me.’ He then downed his pint in one swallow, looked at me and said ‘You’re cute and pretty and all, but you’re opinionated and I don’t like that.’ He then proceeded to get up and LEAVE.
The other guy I was talking to asked if I could cook and made it clear he wanted a woman who ‘knows her way around the kitchen.’ I said I could cook but was hardly a gourmand so we probably wouldn’t make a good match. Ten minutes later, he asked how I felt about threesomes.
The other two guys I was talking to disappeared into the ether.
I did meet one nice guy, hot, sweet. He was Greek and I met him on vacation. I am seriously thinking about moving. I’m sure he’ll end up being a problem, as most men are, but at least I’ll get some good sex out of it. ha.
Solution? I’m starting to think it’s just to either be single or to accept what men can give us – and maybe that isn’t that much. maybe it’s just some sex, a few dates, a movie once in a while, etc. If you set yourself up asking for commitment, boundaries, respect, monogamy, this and that … well, maybe Natalie needs to make her husband available to ALL of us! 🙂
Thanks for listening 😉
@Diane.
It’s always a pleasure to read you. And a great pity you don’t appreciate yourself as you are, opinionated and uncooking.
Solution? How about Getting Angry?? It seems to me that you are stuck in Disappointment.
So to be clear, I met a guy like your first one, and when he told me he was surprised to find me so “opinionated” – ’cause I am petite and sweet-looking – I gave him the finger before we parted ways. Surely I feel no disappointment because such piece of sh*t didn’t appreciate me.
Do get angry please. If you find your outrage for how you have been treated you’ll see that once you have removed yourself from the situation, you will breathe of relief or satisfaction, not regret that it didn’t work out.
V.
Hi V, thanks for responding. I definitely appreciate myself as I am, uncooking and opinionated. Did not mean for it to come across as any other way. But I don’t consider a man I’ve known for 40 minutes who has a hissy fit like a toddler and storms off because I dared express an opinion that deviated from his to be worth getting outraged over. Besides, he did not give me the chance to give him the finger. I actually felt a bit bad for him that he has to go through life because such a grade A asswipe. I was also thankful he showed me who he was so early, so I didn’t sit through dinner with him, and that I was able to go home at a reasonable hour. 🙂
What I do get peeved about is the message women are constantly getting that we are doing something to attract these types of men. We’re not attracting dipshits anymore than women sold into sexual slavery in Syria are attracting predators. That’s what’s there.
@Diane. I wholeheartedly agree. I don’t believe in the ‘attraction’ theory or whatever is its name. As a matter of fact, after careful pondering of what other people say about it – after all, if so many people praise it there must be some truth in it, right? – I’ve decided to put it in the bullshit category, together with all the demented things these assclowns say. Haven’t given it any more thought since then. Best, V.
Diane, I am inclined to agree with you. Yes, after enduring these crappy relationships, thank God for this site with a big reality check on healthy happy interactions in the romantic realm .. HOWEVER .. how many men have it together enough these days, and are aware enough, care enough, and have done the work necessary to create and sustain said interactions ? How many women, for that matter ? For all of us who are doing the work for a healthy self, where are these counterparts to be found ? I think most are caught up in life long patterns of codependency and tolerance for the sake of having someone there. So where DOES that leave us ? Unfortunately alone, I am afraid. Better build a good life for yourself. I work with a large cross section of men everyday, and maybe it`s my location, but, a great together [ enough] guy, my equal ? It`s a desert here, and the online dating sites are just as bad ! Not my thing, anyway..
Whoa Diane – how are you meeting these guys? on Tinder?
If you want to meet decent guys formally, you can try a proper introduction agency. Costs more, but hey …
But if I were you, I would SO forget ‘dating’ and try going to group activities for things you enjoy doing. You deserve some fun after such an awful week, and you’re more likely to meet better quality partners if you’re relaxed and really being yourself.
@Ethelreda, I did meet him online, but not Tinder. Unfortunately I work long and strange hours (often at night) which doesn’t leave me much of a chance of meeting people ‘in the real world.’ I don’t think people meet that way much anymore anyway – none of my friends have either. I think part of it is a consequence of the city I live in, in which women outnumber men, and men think they are gods – and often get treated as such. I don’t seem to have these issues when I travel. The second I go on a vacation, I seem to meet hoards of lovely, or at least interested and willing to buy you a drink and have a nice talk with you, men. Hence, I think I’m moving. 🙂
I am relaxed and myself on dates – that was just a particularly bad date. That had never happened to me before. Perhaps my post made it sound indicative of all my dates, it’s not. I just meant the constant in-flow-out-flow of narcissistic entitled men that crowd this city.
Diane, I have to disagree that people don’t meet the old fashioned way anymore. I joined a local meetup group when it fizzled out between me and the work fling – just to fill in some spare time and meet people for friendship, and have been asked out on a date by a very interested and seemingly normal man who is new to the group. Unfortunately I am so NOT interested in getting involved with anyone it is actually a bit annoying and in hindsight I shouldn’t have agreed to meet him for a drink. Perhaps I’ll be my usual opinionated self and turn him off hahahaha!
Brava for us opinionated and independent women!
Ladies,
I totally relate to Diane’s frustration. I am not compatible with the dating world. My experiences make me feel like I was part of a freak show.
@Diane,
Yes, it DOES seem like Natalie found the unicorn. I’m not actively looking anymore.
@V:
“when he told me he was surprised to find me so “opinionated” – ’cause I am petite and sweet-looking – I gave him the finger before we parted ways.”
Love it! Love it! Love it! Thank you for that story. The last “date” I had was in May. I listened to a guy tell me that he turned his daughter into a lesbian, because, you know, he took her hunting and stuff. I couldn’t sit there and agree, and I knew based on this declaration alone, we were not a match. So I openly disagreed, as politely as one can, that he did not have those kind of powers. He then told me that she was brainwashed at college into being a democrat, but that when it comes time to vote, he will make sure that she votes republican. Again, I had to openly disagree, stating that he has no control over how she votes and her political beliefs. And he responded ‘yes I do.’ BTW he claimed to be accepting of her being a lesbian, but not a democrat. Same guy that referenced those man-podcasts. Date over. Thanks for the drink. Go turn some more women into lesbians with your superpowers.
@Moi, so true:
“how many men have it together enough these days, and are aware enough, care enough, and have done the work necessary to create and sustain said interactions ? How many women, for that matter ? For all of us who are doing the work for a healthy self, where are these counterparts to be found ?”
Yep. You said it. Answer: NONE THAT I’VE MET. And in the past, I’ve provided lists of attempted dates that don’t deserve recycling.
@ Etheldreda,
Even in group situations, in my case, it’s always married plus single women. One time- ONE TIME- last year I met one single decent guy. But not the right guy for me. ONE GUY IN A YEAR!!!!
@Say Something. A very satisfactory experience indeed. I had endured his male-chauvinistic comments for quite a while at work, I finally had the chance to get back at him.
About your date: the question is not only that you are not compatible; a person who talks like that is not a good person, I mean it. Do be careful; the farther the better. V.
I really appreciate the dating stories I hear on this blog, because I know I would not be able to willingly admit this level of disrespect into my life any more. When I meet outright assholery, I can now walk away.
What still gets me every time is the Nice Guy Radiating Ambivalence. This is where I need to work a lot harder on my boundaries.
There was an article in the September issue of Vanity Fair on Tinder which really shocked me. The arrogance, coldness and commitment phobia of the men and the woundedness of the women was very apparent. They are only 20 somethings – so young to be so jaded.
I just read the Tinder/ Vanity Fair article, which basically summarized that men are ONLY interested in sex with as many people as possible. Women are going along with it. Get on board or be left out. Not one person interviewed said he/she expected the possibility of a relationship.
While I’m in the 40’s category and not 20’s, I think that mindset has leached into society for people at any age. I am so done with online dating. I think I experienced the watered down version of what I read.
‘It is the very abundance of options provided by online dating which may be making men less inclined to treat any particular woman as a “priority,” according to David Buss, a professor of psychology at the University of Texas at Austin who specializes in the evolution of human sexuality. “Apps like Tinder and OkCupid give people the impression that there are thousands or millions of potential mates out there,” Buss says. “One dimension of this is the impact it has on men’s psychology. When there is a surplus of women, or a perceived surplus of women, the whole mating system tends to shift towards short-term dating. Marriages become unstable. Divorces increase. Men don’t have to commit, so they pursue a short-term mating strategy. Men are making that shift, and women are forced to go along with it in order to mate at all.”’
I see what this professor is saying but it’s not the whole story, in my opinion. Frankly, the same could be said for women too – if we perceive an abundance of males seeking connection, we can hold out for better as well. So, the reverse is true for us. And, as is the core of this blog, if we remove ourselves from the “optional” category for these men seeking short-term ego strokes, they have to take their needs elsewhere and bother someone else.
I also think the professor is painting men with a broad brush – the notion that men want to “bang” as many women as possible and “not settle down” just isn’t true. This is an excuse for poor behavior AND it is essentializing men; men want connection and relationships too. Those of us on this site have encountered men who use relationships to numb themselves to the internal work they need to do. There are men who aren’t on these dating sites, out living their lives like we are, hoping to find connection that lasts.
Anecdotally, perhaps those who make use of dating sites might be more inclined to view the internet as a place where they ‘place an order’ and it delivers what they want? They might be more inclined to pursue instant gratification. I have had many wonderful, quality, very datable friends try “dating sites” only to find that it’s not really offering what they’re looking for – and they delete their accounts quickly. My friends are increasingly leaving these sites to pursue real goals, hobbies, activities – where they meet people they click with – and leaving the “dating sites” to people looking for a quick fix.
I am still very much in the break up recovery stage of a 3 yr relationship with a narcissist. He recently he broke up with me via the silent treatment and moved out of state. I had no idea that he moved until a friend told me. No formal break-up, no words goodbye, nothing. I’ve been completely devastated, vacillating between states of anger, sadness, acceptance and insanity. Lonely. Not sure why he left. So many unanswered questions.
While he never physically or verbally abused me, the silent treatment was used extensively and I excused his behavior (typical narcissist behavior) because of severely damaging incidents that happened to him as a child. I forgot all about me. My boundaries. I grieve for me right now and that I didn’t see myself as important.
So thankful for this post and the many others on this site that are helping me through this.
Today, I was close to emailing or texting him. Im struggling, but I wrote here instead. I cant go back. I’ve lost three years of my life already.
Leigh,
My heart goes out to you.
Abuse is not restricted to physical and verbal rather abuse is any type of aggression with silent treatment seen as passive-aggressive (abuse). I just hope hindsight now is going to work in your favour as someone who does a fade out really does not deserve any follow up other than a fade out in return. This is not tit-for-tat rather a reflection on being on the end of someone else’s inappropriate and distorted behaviour to possibly include one’s own i.e. if thinking to communicate when his pattern of behaviour in the past has always been passive aggressive (silent treatment) so certainly you are not going to get the answers you need to hear.
The emotions you are going through are natural and I highly commend you for grieving for yourself as this is indeed true loss for you although I would add a bit of rejoicing in there given that he has now shown his true colours (inability to communicate is a biggie and vital in any relationship).
Everyone has grown up with an aspect of neglect so don’t get drawn into any woe-be-me tales nor let this be future hallmarks (and/or hooks as Natalie mentions in another post) that include “well he doesn’t hit or yell at me” for yourself.
The no contact rule really does work and your own advice is so do-able….you can’t go back, you won’t go back, and you’re not going back. Take good care of yourself in the meanwhile as you are very much worth more than every single penny in the world.
Leigh,
correction…inability to communicate is a biggie as the ability to communicate is vital.
Leigh thank your lucky so and so’s!!!!!! If you don’t give narcissists the supply THEY want – they up and get it for themselves somewhere else – another source – often they already have supply in the waiting, in secret and so all that would happen if you contact him now is you would give him your key to ANY boundary of yours, he wanted to break in the future (ie a key to worse pain than you are already experiencing or can imagine right now) and he would know he could put you on the back burner for when this supply or other supply goes belly up or becomes too tricky to handle or too close to him – which of course it always will when you are a person who never takes responsibility for your own problems, lives a lie and doesn’t in reality commit to anyone but themselves secretly.
Even with everything my ex did to me, I wished and prayed and pleaded for months that he would come back to me – and spent hours leading to years focusing on making myself better in order to re attract him all over again – so when after his silent treatment he did his vanishing act – without saying goodbye or giving me the closure I deserved – I felt totally and completely rejected all over again = my attachment issues!!! so I gave closure to myself – and I keep giving it to myself every time I need it.
Leigh, take yourself up the biggest hill/building you have where you live and in a moment – not a public one – a moment when you are able to be safely yourself – let rip at him to the wind and say everything you need to say to this poor excuse for a human being – then take a moment to have a good look at the view he has left you with. You need to find a way to connect completely with yourself and your full feelings on this. If you can’t do it verbally – do it with a letter you write before you go there and read out at the top and cast away. A tip – its best to find somewhere you can really really shout like you never have done before.
You won’t believe it but he will come back – all narcs do – in order to check their supply – to see or to know your surprise reaction for their ego boost (ie the ‘I am still in control of her?’ just for their hell of it, not for any other reason we may wish for).
I never believed mine would dare – and there he was – after three years non contact, at the funeral of my next door neighbour – with another woman. This was the neighbour of mine he knew only through me so how he knew she had died when he has moved to another county, who knows? I remembered something at seeing him – that this was how WE first met – him traveling from his new home hundreds of miles away to go to the funeral of a man he said he used to climb with 15/20 years before – before he became too unfit and unsafe to climb.
My friend said ‘Funerals sound right up his alley’ and it is – why would someone need to travel hundreds of miles to go to a funeral of someone they barely know or spent any time with – regularly? – whilst seeming to show deep grief feelings to a vulnerable grieving family usually unfamiliar with him?
Leigh some men and women have to maintain contact with Narcissists through their children – now if you want a worse nightmare think of what he would/could do to you, through using and manipulating a child/children and again thank your lucky something because you have been given a get out of jail card. Now its up to you to use it to focus really on yourself. Be good to yourself and never contact him ever again and work on ways to stop focusing on him and redirect the focus back on yourself and your wonderful life to come.
Oona,
I love the advice you have given here. Beautiful. I believe everything you have said here. I am reading this and taking note of what you have said. It just almost seems like make believe-because what HUMAN can do this to someone? I am still recovering from being hurt royally.
You said:
often they already have supply in the waiting, in secret and so all that would happen if you contact him now is you would give him your key to ANY boundary of yours, he wanted to break in the future (ie a key to worse pain than you are already experiencing or can imagine right now) and he would know he could put you on the back burner for when this supply or other supply goes belly up or becomes too tricky to handle or too close to him –
WOW. This is not a human being. This is the most cruel thing I have heard. These type of people need to be put on a boat destined for no return to earth.
How can anyone avoid meeting a monster like this? What did you do to prevent yourself from calling this monster? More importantly, can you please share how you were able to become so strong and determined to move on?
It sounds like he really had his claws deep into you, but you pulled away. Do you ever wake up and think it was all just a bad dream? Because it is so hard to believe someone could be so destructive. This person has to leave so many people wounded for dead on the side of the road. As I think about dating again-what you have shared here really scares me. I was engaged and never knew I was being cheated on. We spent SO much time together and he called me all day. He cheated at night when I was sleeping. I guess I am looking for some way to avoid being hurt like this again. I want to avoid being deceived. So, when you talk about someone having a secret supply on the back burner that is a trigger for me.
I invested my time in a relationship and my heart was totally into it. Meanwhile he is seeing someone else in the dark.
This is truly SAD. But I so admire the strength I am hearing in your advice. You sound so resilient.
MJ
MJ you are sooooo kind and thoughtful. You pay me such special attention. Best wishes to you. I don’t believe mirroring cruelty is any real defense for anyone – there are lots of good philosophical reasons why it doesn’t work and have you heard the saying ‘an eye for an eye just leaves us all blind’? Pointless solution to a problem in reality.
I repeat – focus on your own needs and make them your priority – not others needs, whether they are your friends, family or ex lovers. And if they don’t fit or are genuinely unhealthy/painful for you – walk away.
Look after yourself MJ.
Oona,
I looked after myself today in a royal way! I did YOGA on the beach and today I was not focused on families and couples. The focus was on me. I have read books, articles and BR for most of the day.
MJ
This was a great post to read. I crawled out a long term relationship with an eum who didn’t treat me with the love, respect, consideration, empathy and thoughtfulness I deserved. It is the first year on my own. It took all my strength and courage to stand up for me and be more authentic and that is my baseline set of expectations with anybody who is in my close and trusting circle.
So I had a little epiphany last weekend when I went to visit a friend who invited me to stay (not at her house, she doesn’t like that) at her remote location because travelling stresses her out and she doesn’t like to do it. I had visited her before when I lived only 3 hours away but told her this time I could only come if there were two days because it was a 5-6 hour trip. And even that was stretching it. When I arrived she was distracted, took me briefly to her house, never offered me anything and then rushed me through an early dinner, dropping me at my b and b by 7 p.m.!
The next morning she said she hadn’t slept well and wasn’t going to be able to spend time with me for most of my second day or have a previously planned dinner because she was “too tired” – thus leaving me alone in a very remote place, with no transport, nothing to do and nobody to see. She also told me that she would be “unable” to drive me to the boat the next morning. Really unbelievable. So I told her I had decided to go home almost immediately which I did (11 hours of travelling in 26 hours) since she wasn’t going to spend time with me (the purpose of the visit!) She could hardly hide her relief! All the way home I got crocodile tear emails from her about how worried she was about me going back to my city which had experienced a very serious storm and lots of power loss. Another problem I had to face! When I got back I wrote a carefully worded email saying I did not feel welcomed and I felt unappreciated for the time and effort I made to take the trip. (including working extra hours so I could take one of the days off – she is retired). She wrote back a long litany of guilting out, blaming me for the method I communicated to her, and lots of details about how tired she gets (and no, she has no illness)and I didn’t because I was “so strong” (my husband’s exact reasons for never supporting me). This wasn’t the point. What WAS the point was that she never ONCE acknowledged my feelings or tried to work through our conflict. And then she said she would never ever discuss this again, at any time. Wow! Just like my ex!
I wrote back one last time and said not talking about things that were important to me was essential in any of my relationships and basically she wrote back saying she “might write back” sometime.
So “no contact” when she does. Flush.
I am very pleased at how quickly I acted when I saw how things were coming down, how I took care of myself when they did, and how I lived my own values in terms of communicating honestly with her, not accepting her power trip over me and then not pursuing it as I might have done in the past, hoping for some resolution. I feel a bit sad but really haven’t been ruminating about it all that much.
I am grateful in a way for this occasion to affirm what my non-negotiables are in terms of any kind of close relationship. Excuse the rant!
@espresso; totally agree, that was a power trip, it was also a guilt trip on HER part i think – something about you taking all that effort tho see her triggered her to show you LESS of a time than she should have. It was smart of you to leave early – i have also started doing that, even if its not the other person’s fault and i’m just tired etc., if i know being somewhere is going to just bring me down theres no point.
I was chatting to someone about this today; very often when people know that they should be a little appreciative of what you’ve done – in this case its not even that she should have thanked you or anything, just spent time with you, they can instead do the opposite as a way to shake off any sense of reciprocation. its very strange.
Its like when someone takes the help you give or even begs you for help then treats you badly WHILE you give them that help – my ex used to be really sulky and rude when I edited his work that HE had asked me to edit. And there was a time where I refused to help him because I knew he would treat me badly – he really needed me to do this and suckered me into it, but at least this time we had rules going in and he didn’t sulk through it or drive me crazy while we picked out furniture and I set up his entire apartment down to the last spoon and helped him assemble etc. The apartment where when I visited him, there would be nothing for me, nothing to eat, no clean towels, he would refuse to pick me up at the airport etc. Well.
Leigh,
do not contact him. There is nothing to be gained. You know everything you need to know about him. Like you said, it will be your loss of time for recovery again.
DON’T. Sit on your hands if you want to text or email him and write your heart out here. We are here and we all have been where you are.
I can tell you it takes time and everyone has a different time schedule but the more focused you are on yourself and the more you believe and trust yourself, the more things and him will come into perspective. You are doing great; just don’t be too! understanding as this throws off the balance. To me silent treatment is one of the worst because for the longest time you wonder and wonder and wonder. But then you have to make a decision that this is ALL there is.
And a person who cares so so very little and cannot go through the discomfort of at least informing you it is over, is not worth anything. It’s such bad character and I don’t care if they do it because of issues that stems from child-hood…blahblahblah…so boring. You are behaving in a decent way and probably also did not have a “dream- childhood” ( I mean, who has?)
Take good care and stay strong!
Thanks Unfolding,
Ive been on holiday for a few days. Very touched by those who have reached out to me since I wrote. THANK YOU for the reminder that nothing will be gained. I notice when Im feeling weak, I can come here and get back on track through the words of wisdom of everyone here.
Hey, this list works for all relationships – friendships and family relationships, not just romantic ones!
That’s cool.
Dear Friends,
Please explain me what does the word “commitment”, really means? If its not marriage, then what is it? Is it a verbal word, but people can change their word anytime, and especially when a relationship goes through tough times its easier to change your word than to walk out of a marriage. Persons in marriage would try more harder to work on the relationship becoz of the hassles involved.
I am not for or against marriage, but just dont get the term “commitment”. A person can say to 10 different people at the same time that they are “committed” to them, which may actually be true in their mind, but then they cannot be “married” to 10 different people as that would be illegal.
@Wiser2 – Agreed. Anyone can say anything. Also, anyone can show all of the actions of being “committed” and then suddenly do a U-turn and uncommit. Had it happen to me, seen it happen to plenty of others. And all of those women saying they have found their committed hero, honestly, no one knows what is going on behind the scenes. I thought my ex was as committed as a human being could be – he was secretly cheating on me with men. On the other hand, he was supportive through many trials and tribulations. Perhaps it’s just time we all snatched what enjoyment we can find from others that is being offered, be pleasantly surprised if that person sticks around to help us through some bad times, cultivate good friends who we are fairly certain will help us they (they fail us too sometimes), save up money for a retirement home or visiting nurse (who will at least be financially obligated to help us when we’re old), grab life by the horns and live out some adventures while we’re still here (life is short!) and forget about waiting for the male unicorn to come along and fill the void within our souls and be the respectful/monogamous/wonderful/helpful/awesomeinbed/mind reader we are all deluding ourselves is out there and waiting for us – if ONLY WE LEARNED TO TREAT OURSELVES BETTER.
Hey, I’m thrilled Natalie found the one, and so have a few others I know (until the day that one isn’t the one) but let’s get real, ladies, there’s like 10 of them out there and like five billion of us.
Just live a good life.
Amen.
I agree to a point, I am in the process of [ for real this time] ending a 10 year relationship with a man who lives with another , ` for the child`. It was enough, and fun for a while, but always left me wanting more .. ie. him there in the mornings, weekends together etc. Ultimately I don`t have the detachment needed for a casual relationship with someone I love. Better peace and acceptance than frustration and hurt..
Another question from a newbie. How should we be raising our sons so that they are emotionally available to themselves and their partner. The media creates such an objectified image of women that it is hardly surprising that so many men are emotionally unavailable, that women for them is another “consumable”, use and move on. I know the video games, movies, popular songs perpetuate this concept. But how can we nurture in our sons respect, care, truthfulness and trustworthiness in this environment?
@Wiser2, excellent question, and I would love the dialogue to move more in that direction culturally rather than the direction it is in, which is, how many ways can women learn to avoid assholes? Because if 9 out of 10 guys are such, you can’t. How about creating LESS of them? But that won’t happen because guys don’t buy books or listen to podcasts about improving relationships – or at least not enough of them do to make it worthwhile to the people who produce them. Seriously, someone point out the message board where men are angsting about their self esteem and how they can attract “better” partners. No, they are angsting about how to get laid.
I remember when I started dating the last ex, I thought I was treated so well and consistently in comparison to how the other ex’s treated me. I got consistency, dining and wining, great sex, intelligence, humor, never standing me up, not disappearing, regular communication and seeing each other. I thought I must have found the one because I thought, “We have what it takes now to build a relationship.” “Little” things I ignored: his opposition to living in together, marriage, settling down, having children, carrying responsibility for more than one person (himself), sharing, compromising, Christianity, abortion . . . I ignored the things he let know about himself in the beginning mainly because I was not aware of myself: who I was and what values I had back then. I certainly did have my opinions and values, but I didn’t think it was important to match them. I didn’t think I was important and decided I could adjust to whatever he thinks important because I had been tired of dating, having long stretches of singledom, being lonely and afraid on my own. After all, compromise and negotiating is important, right? I wanted to settle down and he HAD TO BE THE ONE. Because I was ready even though he had not been good for me. At all. I thought we were compatible, had out of the world chemistry, and liked the same kind of movies and humor. I thought those were the foundation blocks. Not the life goals and important beliefs and values. Well, one year later I got the results.
I agree with Diane about living your life now. Not waiting and hoping there is someone. There might be none. There might be one, but we might have become very defensive and protective of ourselves that we could potentially miss him (actually I don’t even think now there is “One.”). Our boundaries are very strong, which is a very good thing, but it could be that we are eliminating a lot of people from our lives because our BS detector is very well operating and we know our value now. People however, who maybe decent people and nice and share our values, have still their things: insecurities, fears, etc., just like we do. So I wonder while we are building ourselves and changing positively, which is a great thing, at the same time, we also deny access to potential friends and partners. It’s a great thing to be conscious, aware, and present, but because people are imperfect and have flaws/strange things, it’s becoming nearly impossible to find that individual who is just right because we have standards and maybe too high that no human can meet them? I am maybe blabbering now because I am writing as I am thinking. Brainstorming. In no way I suggest to lower our boundaries and standards and tolerate intolerable things that clash with our values. That’s not what we have been working on for months and years. What I am saying is that every relationship takes work. There are going be some great things about one person, but then he/she will do something that is greatly annoying, which is part of his/her nature. Do we move on or try making it work? I think that’s where it’s important to make a difference and distinguish between things that are negotiable and non-negotiable. Values, for instance, such as religion, pro-life/pro-choice, how to live, how to raise kids, to have kids or not have kids, how important money is in living, life goals, etc should be similar if not the same, depending on what type of value. Other things like movies, hobbies, things to do should not matter. Or some of their habits, flaws, actions that they exhibit, should be forgiven/ignored, if of course, they are not detrimental and not integral. To summarize: while it’s great that we are building our new, strong, empowered, independent lives, ready to live alone because there was no one good left for us out there, it’s important to remember that to be open for a relationship it takes being vulnerable and giving people chances but definitely not betting on a relationship that has no future potential. The latter we usually feel in our gut from the start. I knew in the first month of dating, but I ignored that gut feeling because I had been ignoring me all my life.
I understand Diane and although it might sound bitter, it’s true. After we pass a certain age also, it becomes more relevant. There are fewer candidates, and those that are out there, have a lot of baggage, and like someone said here, men don’t go through repairing themselves and self-improvement or epiphany, life resigning event. They just move on to the next step. Generally. There are exceptions. Men who are self-aware, face their weaknesses and flaws, and work actively to resolve the issues. I wonder (need to look up statistics) what is the percentage of women and men turning to counseling to help relationship problems or healing after the breakup. And by percentage I mean those that seek the counseling, not those who are tagged along.
All in all, this doesn’t have to be a depressing topic. If I had read Diane’s post couple years ago I would have gotten really upset. Now I understand the reality of the situation. And I haven’t even dated for two years (met couple people and flushed). But I had dated for 7 years before I met the last ex. Online dating was a “freak show.” (Say Something’s quote I believe). Interestingly, the slip, “the last” ex. I think he is the last ex. And I accept that.
So yes, just live your life. Imagine there is no “rule” or “expectation” to couple. Live it like you were meant to live as you. An individual. Do build friendships, expand network. Pursue interests. Get involved with others. Help others. That’s a full life. No one needs to or has to complete it. There is nothing to complete. We are full as we are already. Love has different sources. Kids, friends, relatives, animals, nature. Love can be found everywhere and given to any source. And if it is found in a partner, we have to make sure from the very beginning that we know what we want from life and what they want from life. Not just tomorrow, from the menu or a TV program. What do they see themselves doing years on? How do they see themselves in their lives? What is their purpose and what is the meaning of their lives to them? Where do they derive the meaning from? These are the questions we need to know the answers to. And even if the answers that match our answers do not mean a commitment 10 years down the road, oh well. Commitment is another great, debatable topic. We have to always remember that we came into this world alone and we will leave it alone. Life is a journey. Ambivalent and uncertain. The one who will always be walking on the path is us, and that is one thing for certain and committed.
Sofia, so well said, and thought out.. thanks for that !
Ditto Sofia. Our view of love and what it means to love and be loved has become so narrow.
Bless you Sofia – so true.
Suki…I agree totally. I think these are all attributes of passive aggressive people..the asking for things and then being critical, in my case, asking me to visit, and then actually being rude to me when I was there.
My ex had different ways of doing it like saying he wanted to do things for me and then not doing them or doing them in a way that was totally unreliable, waiting till the last minute or doing something else entirely. As they say about passive aggressive people – they will give you things but never what you want. …
Although I was open and communicative, he actually set the emotional climate and called the shots and refused to discuss things with me. Just like my friend. At the same time I felt I was the difficult one for having feelings and bringing things up. It is very isolating and crazy-making.
It bothered me about the weekend that I initially felt more hurt than angry. instead of angry. It is hard for me to end relationships or to accept they are over. So another chance to practice.
@espresso, I wouldn’t say the relationship is over. Just that this is a relationship where there is no space for your expectations. So this is not your real friend but if you can maintain boundaries then you can still have a relationship. I have a friend more like a social colleague person that has been very inconsistent , sometimes rude snubbing, other times super nice. She is well known to be insecure. Now I wait for her, even to just say hi, I let her take the lead. I don’t expect anything from her and I just hang out sometimes when she’s in the mood. Yes very unequal relationship. But not a friendship and causes me no distress since I am not invested and this way she is not rude etc because she reaches out when she’s up for it and I don’t put up w any nonsense. It is possible to have those social contacts who when they’re pleasant are very nice to be with and the rest of the time you avoid and have no expectations.
Say Something,
As I read through Natalie’s well thought out list I realized I am still living in the past. So, maybe it is a good thing I have taken myself out of the dating arena.
The funny thing is I am now noticing that the betrayal(THE PAST) is causing me to second guess things even with my business dealings. I am shell shocked. PTSD. I second guess people’s intentions. I am on edge like never before. It is so HORRIBLE (still have bad dreams). I thought that someone was going to double cross me on a business deal because I didn’t hear back at a time we discussed. This was no where near the truth. The deal came thru as we discussed and the individual was a true professional. I am sitting here on Friday night crying. Happy about the deal, but sad because I don’t trust anyone. I am living on edge and it is creeping into my professional relationships. I am calm and not freaking out on people or letting them know my thoughts. But internally my thoughts are that someone is going to betray me again. I am on guard.
The damage of the lies and the betrayal have had such an impact on my life. I am looking around corners for people to F me over. Who can operate like this? When I got the call that the business deal was ready to go. I exhaled and then just climbed into my bed. I feel like I just did 12 rounds and someone knocked me out. I am just waiting for someone to betray me again. Do you know how much angst I put myself through? Sitting here crying because nothing in my world will ever be the same. EVER. Not this lifetime.
Maybe it is good that I expect the WORSE from everyone. Then I want be as hurt as I am about what he pulled on me. I am devastated. I don’t want to continue to live like this. I sit and think business deals are never going to materialize and they do. Things turn out better than I could have imagined. So much for everyone who says we have to be careful about what we think. I am thinking the WORST and things turn out three times better for me all day long. Every single time. I just don’t like looking over my shoulder for someone to knife me all day long. Who is going to hurt me next? I have NEVER been a paranoid type. People that I am sure are going to KNIFE me turn out to be as nice as cherry pie to me. I am stunned. My judgment is off. I was NEVER like this before.
I read the stories on BR about how men are just vanishing after creating chaos in peoples lives. He did his dirt and I am trying to clean up now. I am on guard all day. I feel like I am a character inside one of these little video games trying to watch out for the bad guys lurking in corners so I can duck before they chop off my head. When does it get better after you have been betrayed?
BTW looked at the articles you posted by Elliot. She is too damn brutal. When you have had your heart broken (crushed and danced on)- you need someone like Natalie to give guidance. Someone who has been hurt that can give tough love with compassion. When I read Natalie’s blogs I am encouraged and gain a new outlook. I feel like I can strap in and do one more round. But Elliot’s language (you were dumped get over it) is too abrasive for me. In the early stages she would have crushed my spirit. I was already broken. So glad I have BR and your virtual friendship.
Have a nice long weekend. I use to look forward to these. Not now. Headed to the beach on Saturday ALONE AGAIN. I am going to buy a blow up mannequin to take on vacations with me. I need the company.
MJ
Good Morning MJ,
After reading that Vanity Fair article, I’m sitting here with coffee wishing to be wired differently. Exactly why I don’t want to ‘date’ because it seems like in today’s world a date is not the potential to meet someone for the real thing, it’s a means of men getting laid and then disappearing because it’s a one-and-done world. I am not built like that.
How did I raise kids who are ALL in long term, stable, healthy relationships? How can it be possible for me to have lived, believed in, and supported this value, which I see them embracing, yet I can’t find one interested person? I hope they don’t go through this Tinderizing in the future. My friends, the people I associate with in my community, my own kids can all attract and maintain a relationship. And then there is me. How can I allegedly be so off the mark because I don’t think I am. If I was so messed up, wouldn’t I have passed some of that along?
I understand your PTSD comment, in that the lack of trust, and the anticipation of getting screwed over can be triggered by slow response, or even by someone who seems agreeable. That agreeable person must be hiding something!
What I thought were landmarks turned into landslides. And now just wreckage. I was never so distrustful of people either. Now I almost wait for disappointment. I know I have tried to avoid it in the past by not asking for too much. But now I feel like anything that happens that DOESN’T SUCK and disappoint is something I should be grateful for. Nobody deceived me today. I’m so grateful.
I needed to read those brutal words about being dumped. About not being loved back by the person I loved. Because they’re true. Those words are more true and mean more than anything he ever promised me. Like a pain booster. Maybe I need a harsh dose to propel me out of still feeling sad. Maybe if it hurts a little bit more, that will finally be enough.
Enjoy some beach time. I’m going to stay home and clean. Sending you waves of hugs.
Hi Say Something,
Being able to read the brutal article sounds like a sign of healing to me. You are on the mend for sure. When I am super sensitive it is tough to read brutal pieces.
The Vanity Fair piece sounds so discouraging, but paints the reality of what to expect when dating. I really don’t think this is about you being so messed up that you cant get a relationship. You have met some people who just were not for you. Be glad you had them exit your life before they consumed major time.
I understand your comment about wanting to be wired differently. I wish I were wired differently too. Then this wouldn’t have had such an impact on me. I don’t want to date men who have this short term dating strategy. I don’t want to be hurt. It sounds like men have so many women to choose from that they are just in and out of bed with as many women as they can get. Sick and discouraging. I want be one of them because I have my own strategy of how to avoid those with a short term dating strategy.
Nice to hear you are out having your coffee. I have eliminated sodas and going through withdrawal (had some headaches).
Sending you hugs.
MJ
Say Something and Mary Jane,
I have been denying that I might have PTSD and stress related from trauma bonding. This week I have been reading some articles because I too have been trying to figure out why I am still affected after over 1,5 years after the breakup and almost a year of no contact. It had never happened before. In my previous breakups, I felt sad for some time and missed the person, but I never felt damaged, depleted, worn out and so just done. I never felt my self-esteem so shattered and that something is wrong with me: my personality, life, my body, everything ( that stems from his consistent subtle picking and putting down – I see that now). So as I have been reading and realized that I do have the signs of PTSD and trauma bonding. The key for me is figure out how to start healing now that I ACCEPTED that I have been seriously affected and it was not just a breakup. I read the narcissist signs and many apply. I am not trying to figure out him. I rather try figuring out why I am still feeling like this after months and months working and feeling better but yet still somehow so broken. I can’t afford a therapy and it appears not really helpful unless you find an amazing therapist. I will equip myself with my knowledge, reading, and my faith most of all to get my healing started now that I recognize why I feel like I was hit by a train all these months. I experience memory loss (can’t focus or remember much, like forgetting things quickly), anxiety, social phobia, and even some panic attacks. I have irregular heart beat and feel dizzy at times. I could not perform my work for over a year and thanks to my wonderful boss I am still there but I am looking for another job (however there are some career related issues that do need a change as well). So my work performance tremendously fell. I have no trust and reserve some only for very close people. I too exhibit all the signs you two are experiencing. The important thing is that we acknowledge we have been affected and seek the resources that help our healing. That is a first step and step forward. Trying to figure out why those people did that is yet another waste of energy and time. We need to start patching our souls and bodies. I remember when I was younger I heard some women talking about relationships and they said that,”Yes, some men can literally destroy your lives.” I thought to myself, “NO way. No one has that control to influence your life and change it. You are in control of your life.” All true and I still think that but can’t help seeing the effects of the last relationship. So it does happen that a person can destroy you BUT we need to acknowledge what really happened to us and become our own doctors, therapists, parents and friends. Seek resources now (and I am telling myself too) how to heal. Not who he was and what he did, but how to help yourself healing after the damage. That’s my next step now that I identified the real source of my changed personality and health, emotional and physical, being affected.
Susan’s book “Getting Past Your Breakup” (I think is the title) helped me very much in the first 1-2 months right after the breakup. I read and reread some chapters several times. I read her blogs too and yes, she is tough and honest. She is compassionate too in the sense that she doesn’t sugar coat it. It is what it is. She makes me laugh too because she openly calls those guys a-holes and other appropriate words. However, some of her articles maybe too honest for a person who is very raw. Some content is suitable once after you have gone through partial healing. Still though, for me, honesty and “brutality” were the best wakeup calls during self-pity and defending him as well, which I did a lot in the first year of healing. I kept switching from blaming myself to pitying myself and from defending him and hating/labeling him. Those brutal loud words of hers put you in place and bring to reality. Nat’s posts are full of honesty and check-in reality too and the first months I was reading her posts I even started disliking what she was saying! Of course, who likes honesty when pointed at you?
The main thing is to switch from analyzing the past (what happened and why), recognize the problem, and start taking care of us. There must be some helpful ideas and resources how to heal after emotional abuse and trauma bonding. If I find something, I will share. We will get better. Takes time and active work forward not backwards.
Hi Sofia and Say Something,
Sofia thank you for sharing your feelings. Your posts are always helpful. I think the three of us have been struggling with why these relationships BROKE US. Say Something and me always talk about how we weathered other life storms but getting past the devastation of these relationships has been worse than dealing with death.
You said:
but I never felt damaged, depleted, worn out and so just done. I never felt my self-esteem so shattered and that something is wrong with me: my personality, life, my body, everything ( that stems from his consistent subtle picking and putting down – I see that now).
This sums up much of how I have felt. After spending a major part of my life with him, it ripped my heart apart to find out he was cheating. I have always been confident. I started second guessing myself like never before.
Sofia like you -I am also trying to understand why I am having such a struggle with getting over this one break up. What bothers me the most is I cant find any joy in things I enjoyed before. All those things are things I use to do with him. I watch movies at home alone sometimes and everything has a memory attached to it of him. It is like I cant escape the memories of him. We were together for so long and then one night I discovered he was cheating. The relationship was done. I never went to pick up things I had at his place. We never talked again. I have never had an experience like this. EVER. There was no real CLOSURE. Not sure you can get that anyway from a liar and cheat, but the blatant disrespect has changed my life.
I have read so much that I am starting to read everything again. I want to find a way to recover. I don’t have to go out everyday for work, but moving forward I am going to work outside my home more. I am going to be around other people on a daily basis. I need to see if it helps me. Sofia I am happy for you that you had a boss who looked out for you while you were dealing with this.
Sofia in one of your posts you suggested finding something to do to help others. I have found something to do and will start doing it on weekends and some evenings. My hope is that some of these new moves will help me start to recover.
I am going to keep trying like you said in your posts to find ways to feel better. But one person can have a major impact on your life -DESTROY IT.
My number one priority is to take care of ME. Even though the holidays are not near I made plans already to go away. I thought it would give me something to look forward to.
I have thought to myself that I may have to accept that this is just the way I am going to feel. Solemn. What happened just had that kind of impact on me. It is like the damage has been done and this is the end result.
I want to recover, but maybe I am just depressed. I hope we all find some way to get past these break ups. Major damage has been done. Say Something I wish I were wired differently, but I am not. This is how I process things.
MJ
Sofia and MJ,
Today I signed up for Natalie’s pattern breaker e-course. I am seriously considering discontinuing my alternate week therapy sessions.
In the six years I have lived with just my kids I have never allowed any man except BGE/promise breaker to stay with me in my room. I waited over 3 months, and I told him this also. I wanted to make sure there was trust, respect, reliability. I wanted to know we were moving forward with a potential future. So for me, this decision was not taken lightly. I guess to me it was a landmark type choice, because he KNEW that his status had been upgraded from staying on the couch. It felt so okay and so right to be vulnerable like that. And now every day, for over a year, I continue to pay for mistake of wrongly trusting and believing him.
I have been NC for almost a year, which doesn’t even mean a thing, because he has never once tried to contact me.
I have given up online dating efforts, so pretty much that is a guarantee of the end of my dating chances. And I don’t enjoy dating. I wanted the real thing.
For the past few months, I have spent more and more time alone. I read articles and blogs and books. Some are about pathological people, trauma, and broken relationships; some focus on the aftermath and how to recover. BR has been the most helpful, with the most insightful comments of any site I’ve come across.
I clean and throw things away. I’ll keep up until there is nothing left to do- might take some time though.
So what are the landmarks of progress? MJ and Sofia, I fear that maybe we are only experiencing the hallmarks of healing.
Sofia, you mentioned physical symptoms. You might be cycling back through fight- flight – freeze. I sometimes, usually when driving and ruminating, catch myself holding my breath while I’m having a thought about him. Like maybe if I don’t breathe, I won’t cry. Not even on purpose. And I still experience that horrible anxiety-like cycle, usually upon waking in the night, and even in the morning. Thank you for sharing and letting us know we are not alone and not crazy for how we feel.
– Hugs, good thoughts, and hope
It has also been over a year since my guy an me broke up officially. He never really left my life however and we resorted to FWB, neither of us could let go.the last year has been hell, constant ruminating and hopes that I could have him back as a whole faithful person, I was trying to repair what was broken, because I was broken inside, losing all my values for this one guy meant trying to hold on to everything so that it was worth all the pain. Today marks 4 weeks on no contact after I found out he cheated again, but yesterday I spent most of the day thinking about him, even composed a long email which I never sent. I woke up this morning to a text from him at 0230. Thank god I was sleeping, didn’t hear it and was not able to reply. If I had been out with friends drinking then there is every chance I would have got on the merry go round. I totally didn’t expect him to make contact at all, but you guys were so right, they always do. So glad I didn’t respond. Maybe I’m getting stronger I hope so any way. Spent this morning reading BR. You guys are my saviours truly
“I was trying to repair what was broken, because I was broken inside, losing all my values for this one guy meant trying to hold on to everything so that it was worth all the pain.”
That sounds so sad. I hope you’re ready for it to be over, finally, for your sake. After what you saw, and how you both reacted (you physically ill, and him smug and content with you seeing him with someone else, telling you he won’t change), please don’t go back.
He has proven that he is NOT worth the pain; hecus the source of it. A person who cares even a little would not cause you such pain. You know that.
Say Something,
I am so glad you are owning this process and taking care of yourself. Kudos to you !! One more suggestion I will like to make is: go out often even to just a park and just do people watching. It will give you some breathing space. If possible go exploring new spaces before you find one that recharges you.
I read a couple of your posts and am concerned about you post your break-up. Sometimes it makes me wonder, was this a guy a narcissist? They find ways of just doing enough, saying enough and look for women they can easily make submissive to meet their needs, use them and chuck them off. He sounds like a ruthless manipulator and certainly not someone who is even half-way decent.
Am not sure why you refer to him as Best Guy ever. To me he comes across as Biggest Jerk ever. Please open your eyes and let yourself see his true colors. Am sorry if I sound harsh but am honestly concerned about your need to keep idealising away his unfair actions.
Hi Julianne,
I haven’t found a space (physically or emotionally) where I feel at peace. I, like Sofia, have tried to figure him out. I have spent more time trying to figure him out than the time I ever spent with him. Was he a narcissist? Maybe. Passive aggressive? It seems so. Manipulative? It feels like it. Unavailable! Yes, to me now. But he presented himself as the most wonderful, NICE, caring, attentive, affectionate, thoughtful guy I’d ever met. Told me he didn’t have a mean bone in his body. Consistently treated me with kindness and respect. And then one day he just quit. I don’t know what kind of person does that, with no warning. I don’t know what kind of person becomes cold, dismissive, and detached at the snap of a finger. I only know that I still feel deep anguish. If someone told you that a stop sign was blue, would you say, “oh ok, I guess I’ve been mistaken all this time” or would you react with “stop signs are red. I know what color stop signs are!” That example has no emotion connected I realize, but for me to be SO SURE that I was with a genuine good guy who truly cared and like me to find out he felt the exact opposite could not be true. Unless there was something so wrong with him to be able to deceive me like that, or unless there is something so wrong with me that I made up the relationship in my head. Relationship landslide. Sometimes people can destroy you with sweet words.
Yes they can. Say Something, your emotions and thoughts want to tell you a couple of things but right now their intensity is so high it is hard to tease the true messages from the chaos. It truly breaks my heart to see you hurting so badly.
It certainly is necessary to do relationship inventory so that you can process what had occurred and see things for what they are. So do honor this journey you are in. Even though right now you are in pain, it will not always be this way.
I have read a couple of people talking about narcissists and the enormous damage they can wreak onto someone’s spirit. Just curious if that might be the case in here…am pasting some links in here, this may or may not apply to you. In case it does, I hope it gives you some insights that can help you in your journey towards healing. And no, there is nothing wrong with you.
http://www.elephantjournal.com/2015/06/the-toxic-attraction-between-an-empath-a-narcissist/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sense-and-sensitivity/201201/the-highly-sensitive-person-and-the-narcissist
If someone TELLS you they don’t have a mean bone in their body, that tends to be a giant red flag – well as you know now I guess. Anyone who genuinely has kindness, decency and integrity doesn’t go around advertising the fact – it’s for others to observe about them, not for them to blow their own trumpet about.
Totally agree, Claire A. I knew a guy that advertised how innocent and harmless he was – NOT at all. Lesson learned.
If someone tells you they dont have a mean bone in their body – they’re in denial. The nicest people, as we think of ourselves I’m sure, have mean bones. I have many mean bones – I’m no saint for one thing, but for another its good to have a few mean bones so that you’re not a pushover. Most importantly, we’re all flawed. So a person that goes on about how great they are is a problem – and not because great people dont toot their own horn but because no one is that great. SO those who go on about it are going to always evade responsibility for their actions because they are incapable of seeing flaws in themselves and others, and accepting those flaws.
I was reading that link attached about on the empath and the narcissist — those of us who think we were raised by narcissists perhaps became empaths because narcissist parents demand that you dance to their inconsistent tune and deny your needs. BUT lets remember one thing – we are empaths, but we are also usually somewhat resentful, suspicious, hurting, etc about being that empath to a narcissist. This is not a clear cut bad guy narcissistic vs. great person empath us story.
I dont just think the pain of these relationships is because these guys are sooo bad (some are of course, i’m leaving out the really problematic abusive ones and sticking to the regular AC, narc, liar types – the ones where we should have paid more attention to red flags) — its because we were too weak, tired, afraid, depressed, anxious to get out. AND once we were out, we were too weak, tired, afraid, depressed and anxious to evaluate or move on – we had to process it in a way that cast this other person as the monster. I think the real thing here is how do you get out of this feeling faster and I really dont know the answer to that.
Perhaps we should be accepting – I think back to an ex-EU, its too bad what happened, but I wouldn’t change a thing about the relationship, he was a good friend and companion for a while. So maybe I need to accept that I do feel bad after these things end. I’m not a robot yet. I have feelings. thats great!! I always worry that I have become jaded and dont have feelings, but I do! Too many! 🙂 you can get a silver lining out of anything.
“If someone tells you they dont have a mean bone in their body – they’re in denial.”
Or they know they are full of shit and are hoping that you’ll believe, buy in, so they can pull off/get away with whatever it is they want to.
I don’t think most people who claim they’re never mean etc are in denial; I think they know on some level that they DO have a mean streak (as we all do) but they’re pretending they don’t in order to manipulate the other person – to present themselves in a positive light for their own reasons.
Also, actually I don’t think that great people (‘great’ at least meaning those who are decent and have integrity but obviously not perfect) *do* go around tooting their own horn – well I’ve not encountered it before. Nobody I respect and count as a friend goes around claiming that they’re this, that and the other.
So maybe HERE is where I missed something? Idk. The reason he made that comment…
Back more toward the beginning of our relationship, we must’ve been talking about how THE BEGINNING. I don’t exactly remember. But in his online profile, he wrote that he had some quirks. I think in our written (Pre-meeting) correspondence, I jokingly referred to his statement about ‘quirks’ and asked, ‘so what’s wrong with you?’ without intending any harm in that question. I guess I figured that if a guy posted something like that online, there’s more to be known. Anyhow, we were out one night and somehow we got talking about that. He said to me ‘you were really a f-ing prick about that.’ I became really upset and didn’t know why he would say that, and I kept asking why did you say that? He immediately apologized, over and over, and said ‘that’s not what I meant. Pay attention to my actions not my words. I don’t have a mean bone in my body.’ I remember being really upset and saying ‘I don’t know why you would say that. I really like you alot and I don’t know why you would say that.’ and he said, ‘I didn’t mean it and I really like you alot too.’ And then he kept telling me to hit him, which I didn’t. He’s a foot taller, and 100 lbs bigger than me. Why would he want me to hit him? So could he have actually meant that he really thought I’m a f-ing prick? Never, any other time did he say anything like that at all to me. Just that one time. Is this the thing I missed by accepting his apology/excuse? The only other thing, he once called me outside and then carried me in the yard and put me face first in a snow bank. He said it was payback for when I (playfully) tackled him once (like a month or two earlier) in the snow. I told him it was really mean and he said ‘why do you think I called you outside?’ Idk, I guess maybe he wanted to show me something? So did I overlook these things or am I just being too sensitive and looking too hard now? Those are the only two times he upset me. Well, until the end. That was the killer.
Say Something,
Please try not to torture yourself. You are going back over all the little pieces of the relationship trying to dissect where things went wrong. This will only cause you more stress. When you find yourself doing this-try to refocus the energy back into doing something positive for you. Refocus. I don’t know you personally and we have never met. But I am confident based on what I have read that you loved this man. More importantly I have been able to glean from EVERYTHING that you have written on BR and the kindness you have shown me during the worst time in my life on earth-you are a decent woman.
Give yourself a chance-back yourself. Can you give yourself the same kind of love you were giving him? Try to love yourself more. You are not lacking anything needed for a relationship. Try to stop second guessing yourself. You are more than good enough. It is just that so much damage was done with how he ended things. I know because I have felt so bad about how I had to end my engagement. I was left with little choice once I discovered the lying and cheating. For comfort I have read stories about how people have walked away from engagements. It is a shock to my system because I believe that there is a level of decorum that takes place when you have known someone for so long. You treat people with respect, but some people don’t follow my belief system. He didn’t. When I read BR I am SO GLAD I slammed the door shut. If not there would be a round 2. He would have cheated again.
If I had the proper tool box I would rewire both of us so we could move past this QUICK. I only say this because I wish there were a quick fix. There isn’t one. Not for me. I made a deliberate choice not to get right back into a relationship. This had to be processed (and I had to grieve my loss). I do believe I have the panacea for my situation and it goes into operation early in the morning.
You are super sweet, sensitive, kind and caring. Someone has to be out there for YOU. I feel it in my bones. But I believe that door is closed because you my dear are STUCK. I get it. You wanted this to be the right one because you have already endured so much heart ache with your divorce. I hear you when you say how he was the only man after divorce that you allowed in your house. In your bedroom. You made a special place in your life for him and he violated your trust.
He was never who you thought he was. Just keep trying everyday to move forward. ACCEPTANCE. NO ONE CAN TELL YOU WHAT IS RIGHT or wrong with how you process this. You are going to process this in your own time in your own way. I am telling myself -what I am telling you. The longer you stay stuck the more pain it may bring.
Do you think you will ever heal and move past him? Can you visualize yourself happy again with a new love who meets your standards and is welcome at your place?
Sofia says it best in her post. One day you can be fine and down the next. Healing from something like this is like being on a roller coaster. But I love reading Sofia’s posts because I believe what she says-we are going to be fine. Just hang on the tide is going to turn. Just hang on.
You need some sleep and you deserve to have some happiness in your WORLD. You need peace. That is what I know for sure. BIG HUG.
MJ
Mary Jane,
I am re-reading your comment again this morning. I couldn’t respond earlier because I think I don’t even know how to handle compassion directed my way. Your kindness and thoughtfulness has overwhelmed me and I’m not used to that, and think I tend to let it bounce rather than absorb it, especially in the aftermath. I am so afraid to trust and believe in goodness because I was so cautious with him at first. But he convinced me, day by day. And I was 100% wrong. So now, when what you say to me seems genuine and heartfelt, and feels like you really understand me, also feels so painful (discomfort?) at the same time, I’m not sure why. Just knowing you understand how I feel and what I’m saying means more than I can clearly convey. Please know you have my deepest respect and gratitude. Thank you.
Say Something,
I understand. I think you know you are safe here at BR. I offer you 100% virtual support. You have given me a lifeline here with your comments. Many days-I have started my day here looking for support from you. I have not built a network of friends who can support me. BR has been my saving grace. I was SO HURT when I found BR.
When I read your story and Sofia’s story I felt like someone on earth could relate to how I felt (HURT). My daily struggles are really no different then yours. I am almost sure. I know what it feels like to have dreams crushed (with lies and cheating). We have both been trying to make sense out of something that seems incomprehensible. I will NEVER understand why he did this. Now, I am just trying daily not to focus on it and let it RULE my life. Hard but I am trying. There are days I really ask myself if this will EVER be my past. Can I put this behind me and live a normal life? Can I be happy like I was before him?
This has left a DEEP WOUND in my soul. I was at a light yesterday and just started crying in the car. The way I was disrespected just hits me. (Why was this dumb ass out looking a wedding venues when he was humping at the HOtel?-I still see that stupid looking grin on his face and it makes me sick) Everything I am trying to say would probably be said best over dinner and drinks. I hope to meet a friend IRL that I can discuss things with like I do here with you. If I meet a new friend this will not be the topic of my conversation. I will leave this in the past. I want a fresh start. There are days that I just need a human hug or to hear a real voice.
I am hoping something really beautiful happens in your life that brings you the light and joy you deserve.
Natalie thank you for creating such a beautiful website where women can come and share their stories and gain valuable insight from you about relationships. This has truly been a place of healing for me. Thanks to everyone who has given me love and support on BR. It has helped me in a MAJOR way.
MJ
passive aggressive, vengeful, aggressive, childish, rude, name-calling, mean – he seems to be all that.
Also, I dont look kindly on ‘friendly’ rough-housing when the guy is that much bigger than the woman and takes her by surprise for ‘payback’. This isn’t kindergarten. I’m not sure even if you were evenly matched, I would be ok with a man that doesnt respect the physical differences between men and women.
Imagine if you had hit him as he asked – shudder. How is this a genuine good guy? You need to ask yourself how these werent red flags for you. That doesnt mean you blame yourself, its to ask what it was that made you overlook these really really no-go signs. I think you’re very lucky to not be with him anymore.
Hi Suki,
I want to clarify that there was never any physical threat. Ever. In fact, he tended to reference things done TO HIM- HE was the victim. Anyhow, thank you for your input.
This is definitely an eye opening post! So true that people are easily lead once they start ticking the boxes of sleeping together, going out with each other friends, even meeting parents that they think the other person is exclusive and committed to them. Or it might actually be going somewhere. Not true.
I have had my eyes open over the last few years. There’s loads of attached guys on dating and sex sites who have pictures of themselves on Facebook with their smiling girlfriends. Or they are out at the weekends chatting and trying to pull women. Ladies you have to have your eyes wide open, I know its hard as we all want to make a connection and believe once we have sex with someone it naturally blossoms into mutual love. Some guys don’t work like that they chew you up and spit you out and tell you want they think you want to hear.
I have dated a few guys now all for a few months here and there, had no milestone, not even considered as their girlfriend, then the first issue is enough for it to break down. So many players and users out there it just makes dating a minefield! I feel like I have just wasted my time when they weren’t even worth it.
Cherry its not been a total waste of your time – you have found out what your true values are and they don’t match the people you have been seeing – ie you are aware and living in reality / they chose not to live in reality.
Now you get to assert to others what YOU are looking for and work out how to truly avoid the things quicker that YOU don’t need/don’t make YOU feel good in reality and spend more quality time looking for what YOU do need and will make YOU feel good.
The people that really wasted their time completely were/are the people that are the players and learn/grow nothing from their experiences.
Yes you are right, I realise I have not met anyone who can match me, I would have to compromise, if they don’t like what I have to say it is their problem as I am a decent person. This is why it is better to stay single than be with the wrong one. Just gets lonely sometimes.
Ladies,
Pray a man never takes you to this point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kM9ALPMsX4
It is definitely in knowing yourself through others that true relationship understanding comes, and is what in fact you actually need in order for the next relationships to be better than your poor past relationships – so it makes sense that to compare the last relationship model with the updated model – using the same system – where you don’t fully understand what or who brings out the best in yourself won’t work.
It was when I was able to simply analyse and truly feel/ take note of what was making me feel good and what clearly wasn’t – and act on this – was where I really began to grow in relationships. Not when my head was spun because I suddenly got a valentines date, card, present. When you are truly connected to your own full feelings in your dealings with others then you are at least with your detection radar on full.
“It was when I was able to simply analyse and truly feel/ take note of what was making me feel good and what clearly wasn’t – and act on this – was where I really began to grow in relationships.”
Excellent point, Oona. What you are describing, intimacy – self intimacy, is essential in having healthy relationships. If we don’t have it, we are using someone else’s compass.
Say Something,
I read that Vanity Fair piece you referred to and it was so much worse than I thought.
One thought from the article reads a follows:
But Marty, who prefers Hinge to Tinder (“Hinge is my thing”), is no slouch at “racking up girls.” He says he’s slept with 30 to 40 women in the last year: “I sort of play that I could be a boyfriend kind of guy,” in order to win them over, “but then they start wanting me to care more … and I just don’t.”
This Fboy as they refer to guys in the article who do this must have no concern about disease. He also does not care about who he deceives. He knows how to manipulate women. He makes them think he is the boyfriend type. It makes me wonder how anyone decent can think about dating.
MJ
What I’ve often seen happen with this type is that he’ll eventually meet a woman who actually cares even less than he does, and she will work some karma on him. The player gets played.
I’m currently, as in right now, at a cookout. 15 adults. 14 people are coupled up (5 married couples, 1 engaged couple, 1 just dating). Plus me. The extra. Always the single one. I guess I fortunate to be invited, because usually I am left out. It can be lonely in a group like this. I’m paying attention to how all the couples interact and wondering what I am lacking… Well, besides a guy. What is so much better about these 14 people? I still can’t figure it out. What are the landmarks they’ve all met? I’m smiling and being polite though so I can blend in even though inside I feel completely alone.
@Say Something
How do you know they HAVE met particular landmarks – especially the couple that are just dating? They may merely have the ‘hallmarks’. One thing I’ve learnt is to not make assumptions about other people’s relationships. How things look on the outside (they seem happy in Facebook photos etc) is often not the reality.
Hi Say Something,
I go places and have the same exact experience. I constantly ask myself if I should stop attending. I think it is important to be OUT. So, I am going to keep going. Socializing is important. I also get the question from some women who seem uncomfortable with being alone-Are you dating anyone?
I don’t think you are lacking anything. You (like me) just haven’t connected with the right person. A male client ask me to join him and his girlfriend at a concert. NO WAY. The invite came out of the blue. I have a ground rule of not mixing personal and business relationships. This has worked so well for me and is the one area of my life where I have some semblance of order. I declined with a smile.
Happy Labor Day. May we both find peace.
MJ
I think what I’m trying to say is that there comes a time when you have to get realistic about what is happening. Everyone who is talking about the Vanity Fair article, this is the city I live in. A friend of mine wrote that piece. This is EXACTLY the way it is — whether young or old. If you were in the stock market and kept losing money, over and over and over, you would make a realistic decision: maybe you would get out of the stock market, maybe you would go into bonds for a lower rate of return, maybe you would keep your money in the bank and get basically no return, but at least you are not losing your money. Maybe you would put a little money in the market, what you could afford to lose, and keep your expectations in check. No one would say “Oh that’s bitter” or “Oh, you are attracting bad stocks.” Maybe you’re a bad stock picker, but if you’re diversified in index stocks, then it’s not YOU, it’s the MARKET.
Sorry, I meant index funds. Although I’m sure my financial analogy is aleady grating enough, haha.
I’m just saying, ladies, perhaps it’s time we faced reality. There’s not necessarily a world of good committed self-aware functional emotionally available financially secure non-addict respectful guys out there who are, oh yeah, also sexy and great in bed. It’s a huge fantasy. The ones who are out there get picked off (by the likes of Natalie, thanks Natalie! ;)) and then what is left is what is left.
I’m not saying settle, and I’m certainly not saying be with one of these guys for 10 years even though it leaves your soul aching. I’m saying stop blaming yourself. Look for other sources of love and comfort. And it’s not the end of the world if mr perfect doesn’t come along.
@Diane. I don’t know if you want to continue this conversation with me, but: WHO is blaming you? It’s not a rethorical question, I really mean it. I have found that when I am able to localise the person/people in my everyday life that make me feel like that, and neutralise them somehow, I solve the problem. For instance, I don’t have any more ‘friends’ anymore who blame me when I complain about somebody who’s hurting me; I have either cut them out of my life or responded appropriately and they have disappeared themselves. Just saying. Best, V.
V. May I ask how you responded when they blamed you? Or, what is a healthy response when someone blames me when I complain about somebody who’s hurting me?
Hey Veracity, glad to be back in conversation with you.
Well if it is somebody who I considered my friend, I say something like “I can’t believe you’re telling me this, I thought you would stand by my side”, and when they segue with some excuse like there are no sides, I am doing this for your own good blah blah I just say “but that’s not what I need, I need you to care for me and me only” or something like this. Which is true and heartfelt for me. This usually brings the conversation to a dead end, and ensures that we both stop seeing each other for a while until we manage to heal our respective wounds.
If it’s somebody who’s not well-intentioned, I just say “I’m sorry I can’t accept this” and I end the conversation then and there; if they insist, I say one more time “I’m not interested in continuing this conversation with you”, the end.
Best, V.
Hey, V., Thank you, me too.
It’s funny, it’s so simple really, tell your truth and consider your audience. Simple, but not always easy.
Thank you!
@V, it’s a cultural thing. All of the books, magazine articles, blogs, podcasts, etc, geared towards women (including this one) saying, essentially, you need to change who you are to attract the right kind of guy. What if the ‘right’ kind of guy – the kind we’re all looking for on here – is an endangered species? I think the other ladies on here are getting what I’m saying.
And no one should confuse this with Natalie’s blog or others like it being unhelpful… BR is extremely helpful. I can’t imagine the kind of doofuses I would have continued to give chances to if I hadn’t become an avid reader of BR. But I AM saying that the type of guys that we want once we become enlightened are few and far between — at least in my city.
Dianne, I for one haven’t changed myself to attract the right guy and that’s not the message I take from BR. I have changed and am living a happier, more real and grounded life. That is due in a large part to being able to understand what it means to be emotionally available in life and taking responsibility in both thought and action. I hsve changed and my life is better, more grounded and more ‘real’. I can now identify when I’m being authentic/real and taking care of my emotional needs (EA) and when I’m not (EU). I changed because I wanted to stop mindlessly repeating painful patterns in thought and action. Wanted to something to live better, be myself, feel happier, esteem myself more. From that, my friendships/relationsips across the board have all benefited hugely – including the ones that fell by the wayside when I got myself some values, boundaries and esteem.
@lizzp YES this is what I’m saying. I’m not sure if I’m communicating my ideas in a plain way. Change for YOU. NOT so you can ‘attract’ the ‘right’ guy. BR is helpful for YOU, for your LIFE. But I think there’s the idea that if only we work really hard on ourselves, Mr. Glorious will come along and be attracted to that. In reality, there are so few Mr Glorious’s out there, that the odds are against that. I will say it will help you stay away from Mr ACs, and that should be good enough in and of itself.
Wanted to weigh in here on the “Tinder”-izing of dating. Before the internet, people still dealt with the situation of the wanting people who don’t want us or NOT wanting the people who do want us. I watched a 1931 movie where the heroine says “Why is it we never want the ones who want us”…so that is not a new situation.
But I do think the internet has thrown a negative wrinkle into the dating world… a desire to keep searching for better…and “better” is an externally based validation…the “status” of impressing those on the outside by being with the best-looking/best-earning candidate.
Internally based values and validation is dying.
I found this quote in a programming book and I think it is very true –
This gets us back to Noam Chomsky’s answer to “What do you think about the Internet?” (1994)
“I think that there are good things about it, but there are also aspects of it that concern and worry me. This is an intuitive response – I can’t prove it – but my feeling is that, since people aren’t Martians or robots, direct face-to-face contact is an extremely important part of human life. It helps develop self-understanding and the growth of a healthy personality.
You just have a different relationship to somebody when you’re looking at them than you do when you’re punching away at a keyboard and some symbols come back. I suspect that extending that form of abstract and remote relationship is going to have unpleasant effects on what people are like. It will diminish their humanity, I think.”
“You just have a different relationship to somebody when you’re looking at them than you do when you’re punching away at a keyboard and some symbols come back. ”
So true. During some low points in my life had become so introverted that my communications with my social circle had become limited. It was easy for me to fall into the charms of a guy I was dating who primarily communicated in form of texts. It was a night and day difference to meet the real person — good on paper but a total sleazebag in person.
In today’s world of online communications it is so easy to create a fake persona.
I disagree with you there Diane. Although I do respect your opinions and know that each person sees the world from their own lens, their own perspective.
I have seen some great guys out there and know that they do exist. But we also have to do our inner work to attract those kind of guys. The only way we can do that is when we hold ourselves in high esteem. Natalie’s post https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/the-importance-of-holding-your-own-in-dating-relationships/ sums it up better. We need to take ownership of our happiness. One needs to find someone who spurs you on to keep growing and become a better person. Relationship or no relationship, I do intend to keep growing and staying happy.
I am not judging you in here (maybe as part of responding to you, am actually vocalizing my objections to my own previous limiting mindsets :-). Previously I used to be in a reactive mode as well but now am more conscious of the choices I make. It takes practice but it’s not that hard either. Am very happy for those ACs who showed their true colors and backed off or I would have found myself in a very unhappy, unhealthy marriage (that leaves behind worse scars and makes dating challenges look trivial in comparison). It helped me be more aware of my subconscious shortcomings and work through them. I thank God each day for opening my eyes or I would have had to face some serious repercussions in there. My current challenge is that sometimes I recycle to a past wrongdoing by someone else, even though the person in front of me intended it in a different way. So being able to let those go and reconnect in new empowering ways is something am working on.
Who we are shows up in all parts of our social interactions. Personally, I have been connecting with a few people — professionally, as part of my extended social circle and via dating, that makes me realize I need to be the one to heal my emotional wounds…no one else can or should do it for me. So I can only speak for myself that I am in the midst of a personal transformation and reading Natalie’s posts on how she navigated that process and her insights on how to become a high value person is why I find myself here. It’s too easy to give up and say the world is a rotten place to live in, but it takes a lot of efforts to dig our heels in, and to dig ourselves out of our messes. Interestingly enough her advice helps me in multiple areas–not merely my dating life.
Yes, we need to grieve the losses that we have had and work through them, but we need to be vigilant to not let them infiltrate our hearts with bitterness and un-forgiveness. Let it go and always be willing to see good things in future via faith before you get there. I have done this a couple of times when achieving other seemingly impossible goals (at least for me) and know that what we believe in is what we get. I wouldn’t want you to make a similar mistake but do respect your opinions and that your own struggles are unique, just as everyone else in here.
Julianne,
It’s not about giving up, but recognizing what is truly around us rather than what we want to see. We can work on ourselves relentlessly until we’ve fixed all the broken parts, but that in no way means there will be a wonderful life partner waiting for us when we’re done.
After a certain age, there are simply fewer available men. And of the ones that are available, there are no prizes among them. As Diane accurately points out, it’s not men who are working on making themselves better people and partners. The ones that do are very few and far between: unicorns.
It’s good that you know some ‘great’ guys, you have some choices for dating. Many of the rest of us aren’t in that position at all.
I found this quote from Jim Rohn which sums up what I meant to say above: (it made a difference to me, so I decided to share it with the hope of spurring others along this journey with me)
The greatest gift you can give somebody
is your own personal development.
I used to say,
If you will take care of me,
I will take care of you.
Now I say,
I will take care of me for you,
if you will take care of you for me.”
Julianne, I enjoy reading your posts and relate to them as well as get a lot out of them. Great quote, and so true.
I recently read this and it sums up where I am actively putting my energy. I would add letting go of the things that no longer serve you and acting on what does.
“One of the most courageous things you can do is identify yourself, know who you are, what you believe in and where you want to go.” — Sheila Murray Bethel
This conversation about dating, Tinderizing (love that word!) and also whether there are emotionally committed honest etc etc guys / women out there — ok, I think I’m fabulous, but I’m not fully committed, available etc etc myself. And I dont think you need to be perfect to find someone to be with. So its like lets not get carried away here thinking you need Mr. Perfect before it really works. OR thinking that we ourselves are so perfect. There are certain red flags we need to avoid, and for a lot of things, we need to compromise, accept, have perspective etc.
I totally think there is a Tinderizing. I also know that I am not up for it, so I stay away.
Either way – bemoaning the state of the dating market is important, but also gets you nothing. I like guys, I have good friends. But romantically – I dont put myself out there, I am not fully emotionally available, I like my solitude a little too much, I dont yet know what I need etc – so there is no point in overly going doomsday on the dating market when a) I wouldn’t date any of those guys and b) I might not be such great relationship material myself (or so I think).
I agree that society has not trained men and women to find each other easily and to develop supportive relationships; at the same time I think doomsday stories about dating dont help at all. If you know what you want, you might not get it – but at least you won’t be stuck in what you DONT want.
And finally – I have seen plenty of ‘healthy’ marriages up close – and they’re messy. They’re not roses. I think some one in 10 of these are really just magical – the rest of outwardly healthy marriages are just normal, getting along, good times and bad times etc. The people in them are just as flawed as anyone else – they just managed to find a partner that is putting up with those flaws, working with those flaws, etc. They’re good, theres lots good there, but they’re still work. So when we think of Nat, we dont know her problems; we just know that she managed to find someone that she can be committed to and get along with, and he with her – and thats great. Its not a unicorn situation. Most importantly – HE’s not a unicorn. If a relationship works its because of what two people create together – its not because one person is a unicorn.
I agree with you Suki. let’s stay real with ourselves, unicorns ? -a mythical beast- keep away from these so called cultural declarations on the internet, be emotionally available to ourselves and others, try to live life well, be present, the unicorn idea is just that – let’s watch the fantasising and pedalstooling of other’s in the absence of knowledge.
@Suki, I’m willing to agree to that to a certain extent. And yes, even the ‘healthiest’ of marriages are messy and not roses. AGREED!! But I doubt Natalie’s husband, on their first date, told her she was opinionated and then stormed off. I doubt he asked her about threesomes on the third email. I doubt Natalie’s future husband looked at her at the end of their first date and said ‘We must go out again!” and then gave her the runaround for the next three weeks. (If he did any of those things, no doubt NML would have flushed)
Yet these types of guys are not just the outliers here where I live, but the NORM. Dating here is just an absolute minefield – and no matter how ‘healthy’ you get, assholes are still assholes. And they abound here.
Thank you Ethelreda and Oona for your encouragement. I agree developing friends and interests is the best way forward, although I also think I need to sort myself out. That’s an on-going process and it’s slow but worthwhile. In the past I tried on-line dating and just tried to meet someone new. I do have friends but always felt a failure because my relationships hadn’t lasted and wanted to be successful and happy in that area too. Now I think it’s just about being and doing what is fulfilling while caring for and loving those around me ( those who have my interests at heart as well as their own). Whether that means I’ll ever have a happy, steady and healthy romantic relationship I don’t know but it should mean I’m a lot happier, and more fun to be around for the people who are in my life. Hopefully it will also mean I don’t settle for another terrible relationship for the sake of being with someone.
@ Veracity, I really appreciate your comments. “letting go of what no longer serves you and acting on what does”–Yes, that’s true for me as well. I loved your quote (and have noted it down) because it summarizes what I truly desired at a deeper level finding me, my identity, my life purpose…and to me that matters a great deal. It took me some time to get here but it’s so empowering to say I love me. Kudos to you for getting this far!!
@ Suki and lizzp, You have both put it across much better than I could have. Also people here are in different stages of their healing process. Which makes them interpret things differently. I too had done that once.
It’s not anyone’s fault but media messages that makes one think you just need to find the right person and hey presto, everything will fall into place. Remember the romance stories –“and they lived happily ever after”. If you see the ads and movies, the couples are always picture-perfect, ever smiling and have no problems to work through.
Am forgetting the author who referred to Guys in real life as “diamonds in the rough”. It’s their interactions with their partners/wives as part of becoming a couple that rubs off their rough edges (and their wives’) to make them that golden couple that most people envy from afar. I guess that’s what being vulnerable means for both people to expose their flaws and bring their honest selves into the relationship. It’s tough. It’s hard. It’s a process. From what people around me say it took them a year or two to really get past their differences and find that connection as a married couple. Each couple is different.
I too agree that it takes two committed people to create the right relationship. One of my friends said that she had met her husband a couple of years ago but they only connected when she had done her inner healing work. Everyone has baggage. Real healthy relationships require a lot of compromises and conscious choices. Marriage in itself doesn’t make life easier, it brings on challenges of its own. Which is why it’s so important to take the time to get to know the other person. I would love for Natalie to share her insights on this (of course, not if it feels like TMI for her).
The other barrier that comes in is this: people work so hard to position themselves in the right job, right career path. But the importance of also consciously doing something similar in the dating process and in long term relationships feels like a let-down. It removes the sheen of hollywood romances in some way.
At the same time, it’s amazing how sharing our respective opinions in here makes us all learn and grow.
And this, ladies, is what I’m talking about. And it’s not just about ‘oh, women should date men without college degrees’ (I’ve dated them) it’s about the sense of entitlement and ‘specialness’ that men have this city, and how much they become complete assholes. I may not be able to move, I have roots here, I own a home here, my industry is not one that is everywhere, however, I advise any woman who is in her 20s who sincerely wants to settle down and get married and have kids to get out of NYC – NOW. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/07/why-college-educated-women-can-t-find-love.html?via=newsletter&source=CSPMedition#
Diane, I agree.. I live in NYC, and I’m in my 20’s and I can’t wait to get out of here. I can’t settle down and raise kids in this city. I have dealt with complete assholes here. It’s all about the shiny new toy that they can get their hands on. I’m not saying all, but most of the men in this city aren’t about morals or values or respect. It’s quite sad. My mother recently moved to upstate NY, and it’s so different than the city. Just a different lifestyle, you can see what’s important to people up there, not superficiality that city is full of.
Ugh I can’t rant about how much I don’t like it here, but I do agree with u.
@Lana, yeah, I think people who don’t live here can’t comprehend it. Any female who has lived here GETS it. If they haven’t, they look at you suspect, or think you’re exaggerating, or think there must be something wrong with you. Let me just toot my own horn here for a minute at the risk of drawing some ire: I’m a very attractive woman. I’m told I’m “beautiful.” I have a good job, make a good living, own my own place, am happy, have good friends, and, when I’m on this board (ha) pretty damn funny. And yet I can’t find a boyfriend. Soooooo …. it’s sad but it’s the way it is, and I was just out with my friend who had equally to offer, and is going through the same thing, and we were plotting our move to Greece or another country where the men are still men and not bratty little girls.
Diane,
I don’t live in the city, but close enough. Close enough to feel some of this sludge that basically renders the dating pool into a sludge pit. I’m not playing in the sludge pit anymore. The older I get, the thicker the sludge. When is the last time I received a card in the mail from a man in the last 10 years? Or flowers? NEVER.
Diane, I hear you! theres no exaggeration to the no good men in this city. Hunny, I can’t find a boyfriend either. It’s funny that you said that you and your friend have been plotting your move to another country, because I say the same thing. Lol
Hopefully, we’ll be lucky to find love before the year is up, who knows? Haha but it would definitely be hard for us here..
Diane, I hear you! There is no exaggeration to what we are going thru here in this city. I can’t find a find a boyfriend either.. It’s funny that you said you and your friend are plotting to move to a different country, I say the same thing.. Haha
It just sucks, because they say “let love find you”, and then you get handed a (ac) and then u try the different approach and put yourself out there and it’s nothing but (ac’s).. No good men here.
But maybe we’ll get lucky and find love before the year is up.. Haha and hopefully he is a GOOD MAN..
Best wishes !
Sorry, I meant NOT on this board. here, I’m not funny…. except unintentionally 🙂
Timely. The 6 month relationship that left me so effed up ended way back in February and I haven’t spoken to him in a long time, haven’t seen him in even longer…and the distance has definitely helped. However, now that my rose-colored glasses have been removed and I look back to how blindly I trusted him in instances he didn’t deserve to be trusted, I’m horrified. I see how he manipulated me, betrayed me, lied and probably was seeing others behind my back, all while I chose to be trusting. He played me for a fool and I let him. So I guess what my concern is, is how to learn to NOTICE the signs when it’s NOT going someplace ‘good.’ How to quit blindly trusting people when they don’t deserve my trust and, furthermore, stop attracting those men all together. I want to slap him and yell at him and tell him to fuck off but I absolutely refuse to speak to him ever again. Ick Ick Ick. I feel really ashamed of myself and suddenly feel like I need an STD screen. I mean, wtf? I’m trying hard to learn to love myself, it’s so good for me to be single right now and I know that. I am a firm believer that we attract what we give out, and I cannot attract someone loving and genuine until I can love myself genuinely. But still. What do I do with all this anger in the meantime?
I’ve dated 3 guys since my divorce (a year ago). I can’t make it past the 4 month mark. Red flags like future faking and low self-esteem keep popping up with these men.
I’m getting better attuned to my bullshit meter! Instead of staying with an unavailable guy for 16 years, I am now parting ways (after acknowledging red flags/deal breakers) in much less time.
I know that one day, I will find an available partner:)
I love this part:
Contrary to popular belief, healthy relationships progress – you don’t have to force you or the idea of a relationship on them. When someone is genuinely interested in you, they don’t resist you. If there are issues that prevent them from being as committed as they claim they would like to be, they address them.
Sometimes I second-guess myself and wonder if maybe I could have done something differently to get him to address issues in the relationship. But it is nice to get reassurance that when someone is genuinely interested he will address issues.