I read this great post on the OnStartups site, “Dear Friend: Sorry. My heart says yes, but my schedule says no” which reinforces the importance of saying NO, setting limits and managing people’s expectations. Just like with relationships, while you may fear disappointing others by saying NO, you end up setting yourself up for pain and frustration as well as taking yourself off the market for better opportunities. With that in mind, I couldn’t help but be inspired:
Dear So & So,
Thanks for expressing an interest, giving me X amount of time for a relationship, or even putting out the feelers about getting back together/hooking up for old times sake.
The thing is, I’m sure that you think that what you’re proposing is ‘great’ and that maybe even based on past dealings with me you think this is totally up my street, but actually, my self-esteem is on the rise and this just doesn’t fit in with me.
I’ve been guilty of not only being a YES person but having little or no boundaries in the past. I haven’t realised the importance of not only loving myself and treating me with care, trust, and respect, but also how certain types of relationship and certain types of behaviour make it a no-go for a mutually fulfilling relationship.
I’ve been passionate about finding love, being ‘good enough’, being the exception to the rule, getting laid, convincing people to choose me, waiting around, finding The One, avoiding myself and my mistakes, righting the wrongs of the past, the relationship insanity of doing the same thing and expecting a different result, and basically trying to take a shortcut where I’ve tried to get others to create feelings within me and meet needs that I can’t do for myself.
It truly is much easier to say YES instead of NO. That’s not just because of the short-term gain and not having to deal with the guilt, but also because I’ve believed that by saying YES, it would override concerns, get me what I needed from others, and minimise conflict.
Unfortunately (for you) I’ve finally learned the lesson that every time I say YES to an unhealthy situation or continue to participate in it once it becomes apparent that it is not what I thought it was or could be, and is in fact unhealthy, I’m saying NO to a healthy relationship and essentially making myself unavailable.
And NO, even though I’m declining what you’re proposing, that doesn’t mean that you can hang around in my life as a pseudo friendship and tap me up for a shag/ego stroke/shoulder to lean on ‘until’ I find someone else – you’d be blocking the entrance for something better to come along and I’d be letting you do it.
You might feel like you’re not asking me for ‘that much’ or that it feels good and works for you, so it’ll feel good and work for me, but your standards and mine may be two very different things and ultimately it’s up to me to decide what works for me, not you.
Although my vagina/penis/libido says yes, I recognise that they’re not very good judges of character and that I’ll feel good now, crap later. Sex is not an automatic precursor to the relationship I want, nor is the fact that I’m horny or we have a great sexual connection indicative of the strength of our ‘relationship’. As a result, I’m going to have to say no.
Although my ego is saying yes, to be honest with you, my ego’s gotten me in a lot of trouble. I’m learning to self-validate instead of looking for people who often don’t value me to tell me how valuable I am which is a bit like asking a random off the street to value your home or being at the mercy of Other People’s Bullshit Mentality. So thanks, but no thanks.
Although my imagination is saying yes, I need reality and the fact is that I’ve had more relationships with my imagination than I’ve had hot dinners and actual relationships and invariably, the fantasy is better than the truth. So thanks, but no thanks because I’m on The Bullshit Diet and I don’t Bet On Potential.
And yes, my heart may be saying yes, but maybe it isn’t. The truth is I could never know what my heart really and truly wanted until I learned to love myself and saw me as a valuable person that’s worthwhile – that’s worth the effort, worth the boundaries, worth not selling myself short for.
The lesson learned from all of my saying YES whether it has been via my actions or words, is that when I’m being truly emotionally honest and authentic, the heart, my choices, what I want and what results are more aligned.
If you want to get a quick barometer of how someone truly feels about themselves, take a look at the person they’re involved with, who they profess to be interested in/can’t get over, the situations they get involved in or how they think, feel, and talk about themselves.
By saying NO to you, I’m saying YES to myself. It’s about fricking time.
Now it may not be today, it may not be tomorrow and it may not even be that soon, but I’m going to trust that there’s better out there for me because I’m learning to trust myself and have become au fait with what doesn’t work for me. I have enough experience that demonstrates what results when I continue doing the same thing and expecting different results.
I’ve tried to be the exception to the rule for way too long – I want to experience happiness out of the rule instead of banging my head against a brick wall and trying to get love from unlikely and outright reluctant sources.
I’m going to occupy my life literally and figuratively and whatever I say yes to relationship-wise in the future, it’s going to come from a positive place and reflect a me that loves me.
So, er, yeah, thanks, but no thanks. No more broken windows here – you’ve got the wrong house.
From me x
If loving someone and taking part in a relationship means that you can’t love you, always choose you.
Your thoughts?
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Wow, this was just what I needed tonight!
I have this “friend” … we were FWB a couple of years ago, even though I wanted more. I haven’t been able to let go of him completely, I’ve felt like being friends was better than nothing. (Yeah, I know it’s really not … )
Anyway, I’m in the process of moving, and he’s supposed to come over tomorrow and help me pack. He said something today about having to be somewhere at “3-ish” tomorrow afternoon. I know he’s seeing other women, he’s told me about some of them.
But he hadn’t mentioned anyone in a while, so I guess I let myself think that he wasn’t dating right now. I really don’t want to go back to what we had, because it wasn’t much. He’s so completely unavailable in every way. During the year that we were FWB, I never once went to his house (still haven’t, 3 years later). Every conversation with him is ambiguous.
Plans were never made in advance. This plan to help me pack tomorrow is a huge exception for him. But most of the time, he’d just show up at my door without even calling first.
Sorry if this is TMI, but the sex wasn’t even good. But he fits my “type” physically, and if I’m honest, the unavailable part is also my type.
I’ve been feeling really low all day, just picturing him on this date tomorrow night with someone else. I don’t want him, but I don’t want anyone else to have him either. How sick is that?
This post reminded me that I’m worth more than just waiting around for crumbs from this guy who really couldn’t care less about me or probably anyone else, but himself.
Janis, don’t beat yourself up so much. Sounds like you’re getting it but it takes awhile for the sadness to go away. I’ve been there with my ex and what it does to your self-esteem is scary. Stay strong.
Thanks, Mary.
After reading this blog for a while, I’m actually pretty sure that I won’t get into another “non-relationship”. I understand how I’ve gotten into these things in the past, and every relationship I’ve ever had has fit this overall pattern. I know what the red flags are, I know what to look for.
But this guy — for some reason I’m finding it sooo hard to walk away from him for good. And I realize that I’m never going to be available myself to meet someone for a healthy relationship as long as I’m hung up on him.
And — for the record — the last time we had sex was last October. So we haven’t even been in booty call territory for a while now.
Hey Janis,
Your situation sounds like a carbon copy of mine pretty much, but I’m pleased to say that after deciding at Christmas that enough was enough, I am now 7 months NC and the cloud’s began to lift. 🙂 I actually feel sorry for the poor cows involved with him (although their existence didn’t stop the fool making a lame attempt at lazy communication back in April, which I of course ignored!) and am grateful that the baton has been well and truly passed on and passed over! Things will get better, you have to believe that. I got to around May and was still feeling v.blue about it all, but finally, I see it for what it was and have no intention of going back in any way, shape or form. I can’t remain friends with him, as I don’t keep snakes in my circle, it’s that simple.
So, please hang in there Janis and continue to read BR and Natalie’s words of wisdom, which do sink in, even if it’s only subconsciously to begin with! Keep your focus and weather the storm, as I remember being very up and down for a while, so exhausting and valuable time wasted that you could be using on other more meaningful stuff such as YOU. I’m now very focused on the future and loving how the assertion of my boundaries has permeated other platonic relationships too, I feel like the old me is coming back. 🙂
Take care and enjoy the weekend. 🙂
Thanks, Need2MoveFwd.
It really helps to know that it IS possible to get past this. And Natalie’s blog helps more than anything else I’ve ever come across. It has changed the way I think about relationships, hopefully forever.
I’ve realized over the last few months that I have this tendency to stay “friends” with all my exes. I always thought that was a good thing, but now I’m seeing that it really isn’t. It really holds me back from moving on.
A lot of it is just this craving for “male attention” … ANY male attention, almost. That’s what I need to work on, I’m not afraid to be alone, as long as there’s some guy somewhere who I can count on for attention when I need it. I need to learn to really be okay alone, without the male attention.
Janis
I’ve been celibate for five years. I realise it’s not for everyone and I’m not even sure it’s for me! I’ve started coming out of my shell regarding men, I was avoiding them before. I do get male attention and I give men attention but it’s completely different to how it was before. I no longer feel the need for them to fancy me (though it’s flattering when they do), I don’t feel the urge to impress them, and I’m not desperately building castles in the air “ooh maybe he’s the one!”. I’m not even scoping for a date. We’re just chatting. It feels more ordinary. He’s a human being. I’m a human being. I actually enjoy men more now that I don’t NEED them. I’m not a man hater. I think manhate and womanhate (from men) comes from our frustration that they aren’t meeting our NEED for validation. It’s no-one’s job to validate us. They can’t do it even if they wanted to (and why would they).
I’m largely happy, financially independent (way more important that I gave it credit for), no dodgy men around. I don’t feel the grasping NEED anymore for someone to validate me. It’s a wonderful feeling.
It’s been a long time since I’ve been in that place myself, so I’ve started to feel VERY puzzled when I read comments here “My life is essentially on hold because HE said this, HE said that. HE did this etc”. My overwhelming reaction is “Who is HE that HE matters that much?!” I’m not being critical, I’m saying that one day HE won’t matter one jot and the quicker you get to that day, the better.
Hey Grace – your post was really insightful. Thank you. I feel exactly the same way, emerging from self-imposed time for introspection and having pleasant exchanges and interactions with men. Some flirt, some are just chatty, but I agree, it’s now just an interaction with another person because there is nothing at stake.
I think you are dead right when you say man/woman hating is the result of frustration that the opposite sex isn’t validating us. Thank you for your wise insight.
Grace – I don’t know where we might have the opportunity for this, but I would love to hear more about why you feel financial independence is way more important than you thought.
One of my emotional “knots” is very much tied up in the self-support issue: Dad, artist, couldn’t/wouldn’t support us most of the time, and then only with much guilt tripping, bit of an emotional and financial user, definitely EU; Mom gives up her art, works at offices, supports us all, continues to support him, she gets no glory.
Me: artist who supported herself, did art, worked at offices, and lately feeling like I lived the life that resolves my parents’ marriage, not the life that is about me. Something about my self-esteem doesn’t want to give up the artist title, and another part of my self-esteem can’t stand the economic weakness I’ve chosen by choosing art.
Most of my long-term relationships with men have had a strong financial dynamic, either him way richer and me feeling dominated, or me way more financially dependable and reliving Daddy issues with a bf who can’t meet his obligations.
I don’t know how that would look, or feel, to trust someone else enough to put my financial security in their hands – even long enough to have a couple babies.
Anyway, I’ve been guilty of “my-childhood-issues-around-bankruptcy-and-sexuality-and-low-self-esteem-say-yes, even-though-my-head-and-heart-say-no.” Want OUT of that loop.
Lately I’m working on whether my self-esteem depends on my becoming more financially/economically stable, or whether I’m about as stable as anyone and need to learn to better weather financial risk. I just know for me self-esteem and feeling like I can genuinely take care of myself and even have a bit of fun are tied together.
As I improve my own lot, I can say a healthy NO to all these asshat dudes who think providing financially means they’ve bought your submission. Well, if you have no $, and they do, and you say yes to them paying for you, they kind of have.
Mag
Now that I’m earning a decent salary I don’t have that lingering thought “I need to be part of a couple before I can buy a flat”. I was able to buy it myself (before the credit crunch, I’d have no chance now). I’ve been financially independent for most of my adult life actually but it’s only quite recently that I don’t have any financial worries – paid off all my debts and earning a decent living.
Back to self-esteem, I think money does matter. You don’t have to be rich but it feels good to be able to support yourself and not need a man to provide the big ticket necessary items (house, pension) . When I was stuck in dead end jobs I fantasised that a man would come and take me away from all that. But now, I wouldn’t want to be some rich man’s pet.
Even if you’re married, bringing up a family and your husband is able to support you, things change. What happens when the kids grow up, or if he gets made redundant, or God forbid, dies ? We have to be able to take care of ourselves.
Sometimes, though, we do have to rely on our partners (whether we are a man or woman). There are a couple of men I trusted to do that. They respected me, there was no resentment, no power play, I didn’t feel obliged to them, and they didn’t make a big deal of it. I think they were genuinely happy to do it without wanting anything in return. Shame I was too EU to appreciate it at that time!
Well done Grace i always love to read your replies you are so sensible in what you say.
Since my relationship failed with what i now know to have been a definite sociopath i too am celibate and intend to be so until i decide the time is right to be otherwise.
I will not be anyone’s FWB i cannot see the sense in that and anyway my self esteem/morals would not let me go down that route.
Yes i am now dating once more but only when i choose to and who i choose to date – works perfectly so far.
So the message I’m getting here is:
1. Log off online dating sites / hookup sites
2. Start doing ‘manual’ dating
3. Tell hang arounds/hook up buddies/FWBs to go jump
Maybe I am in denial, but the thought of cutting off sex while I try to get a good date / relationship seems a bit harsh. Your thoughts?
nobooty? Doesn’t sound harsh to me, why give it to someone who isn’t a good date/relationship. Probably would save alot of grief in the long run.
Saying no to free sex while waiting/searching for someone to not just have but hold too seems like a hard boundary to set oneself. In part, because of the uncertainty…
Nobooty,
Think about all of those nasty STDs that you would be avoiding, and get yourself a vibrator–I have never met a man who could make me feel as good as Mr. Vy Braetor does. LOL! It doesn’t get tired, have a hard time getting it up, or roll over and go to sleep before I’m satisfied. I broke up with my ex –who happened to have had genital herpes, which he contracted from a one night stand many years ago– six months ago. Since then, I have been celibate and STD free, and intend to remain so for as long as it takes to find the right person.
If you get cheap sex whenever, how will you ever appreciate meaningful sex when it happens. The cheap sex becomes the norm and then you stop even knowing any other kind is out there. You learn to appreciate the real thing when you can see it. If you are looking for an awesome steak dinner, would you be satisfied with a flat, gray meat patty? no, no, and more no.
Maslow’s Hireachy of needs:
‘s_hierarchy_of_needs
Have a look where intimacy and relationships are positioned on the pyramid— and then have a look where sex is positioned on the pyramid. It is down the bottom next to food and water…
My question is, it is possible to be available and have booty while you wait?
Nobooty? If you call it booty, you’re certainly not available to actually giving a shit about the person you’re shagging, never mind anyone else.
You’re free to do whatever you want. Shag around to your hearts content – that is a choice you own. You prioritise sex over everything else, own the results.
At no point did the post even suggest abstaining from sex anyway! If you’re using people for sex and using hookup sites, I’ll be honest and say that Baggage Reclaim is not going to be your cup of tea.
Also intimacy is not the same as sex. You have bigger problems than getting laid if that’s what you believe it is.
Ultimately, it’s you who should be answering your own question – let us know how it’s working out for you in a few months to a year.
I’m not here to convince you and I’m certainly not here to validate your sexual agenda – that’s something you need to sort out for yourself.
Let me repeat – this post isn’t about ‘getting laid while you wait’
You rock, Nat! Thanks for being there 🙂
I can easily go with out it. When I find Mr. Right, we’ll have lots of that. ‘Til then the disappointments, feeling used, and the risks with the lazy, EU Mr. Wrongs is just not that appealing to me. I’ve been down that road and learned my lessons. It really truly just isn’t worth it.
The last one made barely any effort in the relationship to get to know me or make me feel special but he thought he was going to get sex with me. Wow was he wrong. I’m quite proud of it, it makes me feel empowered, and in fact I think it’s funny.
Now anytime I date a guy and he wants to rush or wants to be lazy or mean but thinks he’s getting sex, instead he’s getting shown the door. 🙂 I’m not giving this out for free for Mr. Wrong.
“‘Til then the disappointments, feeling used, and the risks with the lazy, EU Mr. Wrongs is just not that appealing to me.”
Amen Mel! I’m in the same boat and I couldn’t have said it better myself. Feeling used is one the most icky, miserable, pit of the stomach crappy feelings and I can’t imagine that there’s any sex that’s worth that!
Mel, so true. It seems lots of guys really want the fringe benefits of a relationship, mainly sex, but don’t want to treat you decently. Meanness is a very bad characteristic in someone and it’s amazing now quickly a guy can get mean when we don’t play by his terms and conditions or jump to the beat of his drum! I’m jumping to the beat of my drum now and it feels good.
nobooty,
Perhaps Maslow doesn’t know what he’s talking about. To put sex in the category of need that emcompasses such basic needs like water, air, food, etc. is ridiculous. Those other basic needs could literally kill you if not met. You will not die if you don’t have sex.
I’m not saying sex is not a part of who we are and how we are made, but it certainly isn’t such a necessity as to be put at the bottom of the pyramid like that.
@ICanDoBetter – I totally agree!
Maslow was a man, maybe that explains it. LoL.
Cutting off sex completely is hard, at least for me it was…in the beginning. I will say this, though, that devoting all of my energy to myself, my development, my future and my sanity has enabled me to become so much stronger. I can stay home on a weekend night and do my own thing and I don’t care, it’s great.
For me, it eliminated distractions and the opportunity to repeat old bad behavior and get thrown off the track of my own self discovery. This is honestly the first time in my life I haven’t had a guy in the sidelines, to at least pay attention to me. After the initial shock and feeling of being totally alone (took about 3-4 weeks of misery), I appreciate it, and the strength it has given me.
Everyone is different, but I do not think I would have made the progress I have if I hadn’t gone cold turkey, and in the process have figured out how to pay attention to myself.
nobooty……it is nearing a year (the longest in my life in about 14 years) of being celibate. It is hard at times but I know if I give myself over to someone that just wants to get his rocks off and probably turn into a dipshit, I need to keep my legs closed. That is why we have our own hands and man-made toys 😀
Yeah, I don’t see it as a “basic need” either. I’m a more traditionalist type, and I wouldn’t sleep with someone unless it’s a stable relationship and unless I trust him. It’s always been like that for me! And I can’t say I’m suffering because of it. Actually, I didn’t take this step with my EUM/AC either, because when our so-called “relationship” started I felt it was too soon, and then he started acting weird in a very short time. Probably because I didn’t give in straight away! Now, because of circumstances, he’s still part of my life under the mask of “friendship”. Although physical attraction is still there big time, I’m congratulating myself for not having done it and I still have no intention to do it. It’s a continuous war “libido vs. reason”, but I’m hanging tough! I want to avoid having my heart broken. I have already suffered enough because of him as it was, no more unnecessary pain is required!
I don’t think there is anything wrong with having casual sex. I do agree that it’s a basic human need. I think it’s perfectly acceptable to enjoy it as long as you are careful and use protection (i am very strict about that). Also, it depends on your state of mind. When i was single i met a guys who, with my new boundaries and self esteem, i wouldn’t go anywhere near relationship wise, because they were not looking for a relationship. But they were fun, respectful and sweet and we enjoyed each other’s company. The key was that no one expected anything of the other. There was no betting on potential, everyone kept their feet in reality. We would contact each other to meet up and that was all.
There are a coupld of articles on this site about having booty call arrangements and i found them very helpful.
It is a totally different thing to have a casual hook up arrangement, when you have firm boundaries and are not trying to turn it into something more than it really is. When you are not trying to be the exception to the rule and all that.
Best of luck!
“By saying NO to you, I’m saying YES to myself. It’s about fricking time.”
I met a gorgeous, very drunk, young man (36) in a bar and offered him a ride home because he was obviously not in any condition to drive. My girlfriend came with us for the short drive. We all wound up hanging out, laughing and talking for a few hours. He called me a few nights later, very late, very drunk again and asked me to meet him. I did (I actually had a purpose for doing that which I cannot divulge by post here…) We again went back to his house with his roommate to hang out. He asked me to spend the night and lo and behold, I said, “NO, I can’t.” My old self would have jumped at the chance and dived into bed with him despite the fact he was drunk, it was late enough to qualify for a booty call and he might not even remember it! Now, of course, my new “friend,” (his term) no longer seems at all interested in my company. The unhealthy, libido-driven part of me is kicking myself for not sleeping with him when I had the chance, but the healthy part is screaming, “Hallelujah! You go, girl. You finally set a boundary.” I know how f***ing awful I would be feeling about myself now if I had given into the sexual attraction. And ladies, he was a hot Southerner, 13 years my junior…
“It truly is much easier to say YES instead of NO. That’s not just because of the short-term gain and not having to deal with the guilt, but also because I’ve believed that by saying YES, it would override concerns, get me what I needed from others, and minimise conflict.”
Oh, man! You just defined something I deal with on a regular basis. we often think we can minimize conflict in situations by compromising what we truly want and need. But, that’s so dangerous. You hit the nail on the head.
Best wishes,
~Zabrinah
Wow , this just came through to my phone, a few minutes ago. My reaction , i burst out laughing. I am going to take the first part and make it into a poster. Had a couple of texts yesterday from ex, did not reply, however found myself obsessing. You really are amazing Natalie, great timing! Than kyou!
This is so right on. I said no more 10 days ago to a man who allowed me to see him 4 times in three months, waited days\ weeks to respond back to me and when he did see me he set the record for having his pants around his ankles faster than you can say “here to use you one more time.”. I knew for a long time that something was not right but I always made excuses and turned the other way until I discovered “Natalie Wisdom”. OMG. Looking back I was so pathetic-no wonder he wiped the bottom of his shoes on me. I am struggling with the anger I feel toward myself for allowing him to treat me like a total piece of crap. I know I need to be kinder towards myself. My self-esteem really took a beating on this one. My goal? To look at him and feel nothing. His goal? Probably not tripping on his pants!
Excellent! (finallydidit!). So funny!
Natalie, you’re a frickin’ genius!!! Brilliant!!
This one jsut made me cry. I can’t make any sense now. Just incredible how you hit this stuff Natalie. You are incredible. “Now it may not be today, it may not be tomorrow and it may not even be that soon, but I’m going to trust that there’s better out there for me because I’m learning to trust myself and have become au fait with what doesn’t work for me.” That’s it ladies. I have a sense too. It isn’t investing in MM’s, and hoping we’ll be the exception. Oh, too upset and cyring to make sense. I’ll have to read this one over the next few days before I could ever make any sense. Natalie, you are the greatest. Thank you over and over again.
((hugs))!!!!
Runnergirl:
First of all *hugs*
Chose you, chose you all the way! I got over all my guilt and my sadness/anger/denial by getting real with myself. All that impact on you during the aftermath is hurting nobody but you. You’re exMM like my exMM is feeding the lines to his wife, it’s all about him him him. You want comfort, like I did. You want love, like I did.
Love you, Comfort yourself.
Know how I did it? I got tough on me and allocated (at first) two hours a day (this was during my tough period. I would think cry write read remember everything about him. I would mourn him during those two hours. Then directly after I would do something for me. I would go walking, read a book, go out and have tea and cake, ride my bike. After that time every time he came into my head I would say to myself “it’s my time now not yours. Gradually, I went down to an hour a day. Then an hour every two days.
Now, he doesn’t enter my head and when he does I say to myself “go away I’m over you.”
Remember you are FREE now. Love you, care about you first, chose you. Believe me once you’re out of this fog you will not care about any of it – him, his wife, kids, life it will mean nothing to you.
Thank you Magnolia, Leigh, and Cavewoman,
I think I took a momentary downward turn thinking about the role of the wife and remembering the darkness of being the OW. Leigh I like your suggestions. I was doing that but got busy with work stuff and neglected my journal and the “me time”. I think the part that struck me was: “Although my imagination is saying yes, I need reality and the fact is that I’ve had more relationships with my imagination than I’ve had hot dinners and actual relationships and invariably, the fantasy is better than the truth.” Still swallowing that bitter pill.
Cavewoman & Natalie, I love the veggie analogy too. I didn’t realize until reading your book and this post that although I thought I took sex causually, I do equate sex with a relationship, albeit a fantasy relationship. For me, it boils down to my heart saying yes. However, until I love me, think of myself as valuable and worthwhile, how can my heart know what’s best for me? Too many years of banging my head against a brick wall and trying to get external love/validation from unlikely sources. I think I may be getting closer to getting it now. Self-love, self-validation, and self respect comes from within. Self-love, self-validation, and self respect will protect me from the dangerous, dogdy, dubious experiences of my past. Thank you again. My wagon is back right side up.
Runner,
just keep going and keep NC. I said on BR last week and I’ll say it again(!) juts when you think you’re getting it – you get it some more – then you think you’re getting it – then you get it some more again. For me, and I think for you too, which is why I always read and often respond to your posts, it’s about all the things you’ne already mentioned and about: acceptance. Accept that it (this relationship) has to be over. done. finished. And for all the right reasons. Let.it.go. Once that starts to take prominence over the clinging on to some shred of imaginary hope you begin to see the future without him in it and hey presto! whatever it looks like, it looks better! It looks like a better deal if only because whatever it’ll be, it will be real, and real is something we can cope with and be confortable with. Think this: NO more pain! You do not need to have any more of this pain. It can stop. All it needs is your permission! You think you are in a prison cell, but no, the door is wide open all you need to do is walk through it AND close it behind you!
I’m also with Leigh: it helped me whenever my head started to ‘go there’. I’d repeat and repeat ‘it is over. It is finished. No more stress over him. No more.’ So it helps to control your thoughts and to quiet the voices in your head; to take control of your thoughts; this way you stay much calmer and you feel more settled and serene – which feels sooo much better.
BTW I blocked some arsey “friend” from f/book today. An old school friend who’d got in touch. She requested to be ‘friend’. I accepted. Haven’t seen her in 30 yrs. She turned out to be crackerjack – everyone else was all walking on egg-shells with her.. and I just thought, not putting up with this drama queen shit and blocked her and went off and made my tea. No drama – no questioning myself – no head argument about it – no warning – no expanation: Just Blocked. Done. And it was only a few hours later I thought… that’s BR – That’s my learning at the school of Nat that’s kicking in! It’s great. No guilt. No prevarication. Just sense and reason and do it. Thank you Natalie!!! x
Thank you again Fearless for your wise counsel. I’m firmly staying NC. Both feet are in NC land. “You do not need to have any more of this pain. It can stop. All it needs is your permission! You think you are in a prison cell, but no, the door is wide open all you need to do is walk through it AND close it behind you!” I love the analogy of the prison door being wide open. So perfect. I’m letting “it” go and walking through and closing it. I can see it gets better on the other side. The twitchy need to text/call/email has passed. He’s blocked and deleted anyway. The nostalgic memories are not quite as rosy or frequent anymore. Maybe my broken heart is starting to listen to reason. Now it’s about the quieting the voices. I’ll use your saying, if you don’t mind. Thank you.
Good job with the drama queen from your past. I guess that’s the upside of cyberspace, we can just block the people we don’t want to deal with. Good lesson for real life too.
I like the tea thing you and Leigh refer too. I think I’ll start drinking tea.
Runnergirl “my wagon is right side up” . I like that. Keep with the no contact and you will be amazed how much better you will feel as times goes on. You have walked out of your prison….and better days are ahead for you. What you wrote reminded me of a program i saw recently about apes that had been in captivity for years and went through something awful as they were used for testing on. So cruel. An organisation rescued them and brought them to a beautiful open space of green acres and trees and a play area. When they were brought to their freedom, they had to be coaxed out into the open space because they were so used to being in captivity and living on concrete. Once they got to the green area though, they realised they were free and loved it. But one ape just would not go into the grass. He insisted on staying on the concrete. It was heartbreaking to see. He had the choice to leave the concrete but he had been conditioned for so many years to believe he belonged on the concrete and he felt at home and safe there. Going onto the grass was just too scary for him.
As humans, we too can become conditioned to believe so many things about ourselves too and wwe can create our own prisons.
Amazing, Natalie…amazing!
This post is a complete affirmation of who we are when we become healthy!! It is so empowering not only to think and feel this way but to make choices from the solid ground of valuing yourself enough to treat yourself with the same understanding, love, care and respect you extend to others.
Thank-you Natalie. You rock. 🙂 😀
Dear Nat,
You always, always, always, hit the target dead center and in perfect time! How do you do this? Oh, yea, you ARE the Diva!! This post, the Letter, is brilliant and exactly what I want to say. I think Iwill write it out a hndred times until it becomes memorized, my speech, so to speak.
I’ve not been on for a while, still getting your posts but since I dont really visit fb much, I decided to check in via the web. And lo and behold, this post is yet again, perfect.
Its been since May 8th, i had to look it up, NC with my ex. I’ve stayed strong. zero contact. She tried every day for a month to reach me, mailed a card, I didnt even open it, etc. (you know the typical lame efforts) anyway, the reason I decided to check back in here is because, after three weeks, only three weeks, (I thought I was doing so well and finally able to be at peace) I got a call and email today. And although I didnt answer nor plan to, I began to feel a little weak about keeping no contact. Partly because, well…I actually do not like being an asshole, with anyone, for any reason. But then your post was a clear reminder. In my head, I wanted to make things clear, why I was cutting her out of my life. wth? was I thinking? Thank GOD and you, I manage to abstain.
At first, all I had was anger to express but NC is just as much if not more, FOR ME, ALONE. Every time I forego my heart, broken as it was, I find myself wondering how I could have compromised ‘me’ again. No one taught me to how have boundries, growing up. I’ve had to teach myself and daily I work on making them and implimenting them. When it comes to relationships of any kind, this could not be a more fundamental, if not THE number one rule and lesson for maturing. And then it dawned on me, thats it, I want a mature relationship!!
So, realizing right now, by breaking NC, to make any kind of contact would not be taking care of me. Period. Many times, even though its only been a short while, Ive wanted to send a note explaining how shitty she had treaty me, regardless of her now multiple excuses, but my gut said, ‘NO!’ and ‘Why?’ (I actually had conversations with myself)
One thing that helped me besides your ebooks, which is a great reference for anyone still wavering, is I changed her contact name in my phone to , ‘Narcisstic Assclown’, and the ring tone is crikets churping. I know…
Blueberry Girl, you are my hero.
And Nat, you are a genius. Honestly.
Thanks, Stephanie, but this is a very small step for me as I climb a huge, formidable mountain. I have *zero* boundaries with men…so at least I’m more self-aware and not running into heavy traffic the way I was before and then wondering why the pieces of my life are shattered all over the frickin’ road.
Thank you Nat, once again, this posting was timely and dead on!
I just wrote an entire reply, and poof, I erased it by mistake. Most likely too much to say. But because i believe there are no coincidences, I’ll be a little more brief.
First, the Letter was exactly what I wanted to say to my ex. It was specific, about me and to the point. We have to set boundries and the is no time like the present to start. NC is the begining steps toward this.
I’m abstaining (since May 8th) and taking care of me. Everyday for a month. my narcisist ex, tried with some lame excuses and for the last three weeks, I thought I was in the clear and had found peace. But alas, I get a phone call and email, today. I began to actually feel remorse. I’m past my anger stage and had to have a little conversation with myself. ‘What are you thinking>?’, and ‘Why, do I think ANYTHING has changed?’ I was able to distract my thoughts and make it through the day. yay! Then, just a few minutes ago, I decided to come back here and see what I should be teaching myself. (You are teaching us Nat, to be strong and gentle with and to re-teach ourselves, cheers to you for this constant resource, Nat)
If it weren’t for your ebooks, this blog and something I decided to do for myself, I would have broken NC and be back in the same sinking/going no-where boat. One thing I’d like to share that was helpful, is I changed the name in contacts, instead of deleting, to ‘Narcisstic Assclown’ and the ring tone to churping crikets. Its the perfect reminder not to answer by mistake, who I’m dealing with and gives me a little chuckle when it rings. 😉
(whatever helps, right. Nat?)
Keep up the most excellent and insiteful posts, Nat and guests, and remember to always do for yourself that which only you can do, practice honor and respect with yourself, you will survive and mature along the process. It’s an unwritten promise! I promise.
Perfect timing! This commentary just arrived before hearing from a long time string along who is hoping to take advantage of my generous nature. Thank you for helping kick a bad habit! I prefer my own company to the frustation of dealing with a narcissitic man.
Hi Natalie,
Thank you so much for this post. There’s a lot to think about here! The thing that grabbed me – just now as I first read it – was this:
“every time I say YES to an unhealthy situation or continue to participate in it once it becomes apparent that it is not what I thought it was or could be, and is in fact unhealthy, I’m saying NO to a healthy relationship and essentially making myself unavailable.”
Wow! I love what this says! I’m really wanting a healthy relationship. And it has become apparent that my relationship is not what I thought it was or could be. In fact, it is quite unhealthy.
I’m gonna re-read the post tomorrow and think some more.
Thank you again, with all sincerity.
Laura
“Now it may not be today, it may not be tomorrow and it may not even be that soon, but I’m going to trust that there’s better out there for me because I’m learning to trust myself and have become au fait with what doesn’t work for me. I have enough experience that demonstrates what results when I continue doing the same thing and expecting different results.”
These words are what I need to hear, and need to keep repeating to myself.
I have very long periods of being by myself. I am not at all worried about cutting off casual sex; all the sex I have had has always been more than casual to me, even when I wanted it to be otherwise. I have to trust that continuing to develop a belief in myself will mean eventually doing better than letting yet another unavailable, morally dubious or using person into my life. I have to let go of the fear that sticking to a hope for true interest and compatibility means the drought will never end.
Sticking to a hope for true interest and compatibility, and working to get over my fears of being rejected by the good guys, will eventually mean better for me.
Thank you, Nat, for a post addressed to staying with self-love over the long haul and to resisting the short-term fix.
Magnolia and runner,
remember how much time you’re saving when you flush’em right out. You won’t be stuck banging your head against the same thick wall. You’ll get more opportunities to meet and consider others. Then even if in all your new found free time you don’t run into a Real Man, at the very least you’re rid of the frustration and pain wrought by the losers, and you are free to do something else constructive.
Re: celibacy, Magnolia you liken it to a drought — here’s my take. It’s more like eating your veggies, isn’t it? Droughts cause starvation but we’re not starving, we have plenty of nourishing food for our souls. We need not reinvent the wheel on this. Sure, celibacy feels like a bit of sacrifice, it’s supposed to. That whole concept of sexual moderation and self restraint is as old as…. well, as old as the oldest profession itself 🙂 We’ve been pretending that junk food is gourmet food, and looked surprised when we got indigestion. Let’s skip the baloney that spoils our appetite for delicacies. We can thrive on a very-good-for-us diet of veggies, until the finest cut of meat comes along… Mmm-mm!
“It’s more like eating your veggies, isn’t it? Droughts cause starvation but we’re not starving, we have plenty of nourishing food for our souls. We need not reinvent the wheel on this. Sure, celibacy feels like a bit of sacrifice, it’s supposed to. That whole concept of sexual moderation and self restraint is as old as…. well, as old as the oldest profession itself :)” *cracking up laughing* Too funny and very right.
Here’s my 2 cents: it’s all about being behind your own wheel. It’s as easy to get laid these days as it is to walk up the street and buy a carrot. Any choices you make should come from a positive place because much like the person that has a bad relationship with food because they have distorted beliefs about denying oneself, not having sex under whatever name you want to call it shouldn’t be a negative decision or a prison sentence.
You have to be authentic and understand your values – if you’re the type of person that struggles with the emotional consequences of sex, you will need to be cautious about casual.
If you’re the type of person that equates sex with a relationship, you also need to tread carefully.
Instead of being celibate, you’re just single and haven’t met someone you feel like shagging.
“Instead of being celibate, you’re just single and haven’t met someone you feel like shagging.”
Nat that was such an eloquent re-framing of the abstinence issue. That is exactly how I feel. I don’t think of myself as celibate at all, even though it’s been years with no prospect in sight. I just see it like I haven’t met anyone worthy enough yet. There really is something to living with your self, relying on yourself and building your life around your own goals, dreams, and interests that makes you really value what you have more. The more you value the life you have (and thus you), the less you are likely to just give it over to anyone else. It’s like having a really valuable piece of jewellery, what? You’re just gonna let some dude you met last night string it around his neck with no idea that it’ll ever be returned. I know I am stating what you have been so often writing about, but it is finally so internalized that I am able to express it in my own words. Thank you!
I actually make a distinction between sex and the whole lovely range of physical affection (hugs, gentle touches, etc) that one can have in a relationship, and also the intimacy of someone caring what you do on a daily basis. Not having that feels like a drought.
I don’t know if all you ladies have friends who you talk to every day, or who would trade you a back rub when you’re sore, but I don’t. I have good friends who live in other cities, and then my closest friends here I see about once a week. I rotate through seeing friends so that I have enough interaction to keep me going.
It’s the lack of intimacy that gets me down sometimes. I used to ask my family when I was young how come we never told each other we loved each other. They were like, “Our parents never told us.” So: a life with genuine affection – and demonstrativeness – that’s the “maybe there is better out there for me” that I cling to – though I have not yet experienced what I hope exists.
I’ve been celibate more years of my adult life than not. And have learned that, in my case, sex with someone who doesn’t really care about me takes way more from me than it gives.
@ Magnolia, Oh yes I have similar friendships. I do have friends but we talk or see each other infrequently so I rotate. A lot of women have not been great friends to me over the years, a lot of it seems to stem from a fairly overt jealousy or competitiveness from them directed at me. I try to forgive and rise above and be a good friend but sometimes it’s hard to do and doesn’t seem to be reciprocated.
On a side note, one woman I’ve been friends with for several years flaked out on me, again, yesterday because of, yet another, ‘crisis’. Some people seem to always have an over-dramatized ‘crisis’ going on. Luckily I had made plans with other people for later on that night.
“I’ve been celibate more years of my adult life than not. And have learned that, in my case, sex with someone who doesn’t really care about me takes way more from me than it gives.”
I can relate to this experience as well and it’s pretty much the way I feel about it. So many times it was easy to give in and I did, and I regretted it, half the time there wasn’t much in the way of ‘satisfaction’ for me, anyway! Then so many times since it would have been easy to give in and I DIDN’T, and been happy I didn’t give myself away.
Natalie, i completely agree with you here. Any one of us can go out any night of the week and hook up with a guy for a one night stand, but is that from a positive place??. Its so easy to do that and forget about the consequences. And it’s easy to become intimate with someone too soon. I’ve done both in the past, and now that I have better self esteem, there’s no way I would do it. Now, its not something I want to do. Before the ex-assclown, i was celibate for a full two years.
I want to be with someone in that way only when the r/s is grounded with the important things you talk about – being treated with care, trust and respect and ultimately love. And also, i want to be sure that I want to be with the guy.
I’m quite content with my life, really.
Thanks Nat. Im going through this at the moment (thinking about going back out with Mr Unavailable), he’s wanting to see me again. This just reminds me of how important it is to love myself and not fall for the same bull**** all over again. You are a saviour!!
“If you want to get a quick barometer of how someone truly feels about themselves, take a look at the person they’re involved with”
Wow, Natalie, you are on fire lately. Brilliant, truthful, powerful posts. I wish I could have written this letter a year ago. It would have saved me a serious amount of grief and suffering. That I can write it now is very much thanks to you and this site and for that I am entirely grateful.
I love the quote above. I had never thought of it before but it is absolutely true. My so-called EU relationships have been the literal personification of the self-loathing and lack of self-respect I had for myself before. There it was – walking, talking and assclowning around in my life. All the time, I was busting a gut, trying to get them to fix themselves so we could be happy. Now, I am learning to fix myself so I can be happy.
I don’t know how to thank you enough for that.
debra
it’s so true. We can feel very bad about ourselves and not even know it. It’s what we’re used to, why would we even question it? At least the ACs serve a purpose – they wake us up to that.
When we need validation from men, the relationship can never work. We need the validation that’s very dramatic and in-your-face – the validation that comes from wooing a man from his wife, or trying to get an alcoholic to stop drinking, or getting an extreme AC to turn into a saint. If we achieved any of this (rare) we would still need validation. He’s no longer tearing up the place with his wild antics, what are we going to do for validation now? Cos a man just being there and just turning up and just being consistent is not enough validation. Why do I still feel empty? And so we sabotage the relationship. Possibly running off with some EU bloke/AC (yeah I did that).
We must always feel good about ourselves before our relationships can work out.
As always…amazing and timely article Natalie!
Good morning all,
This is a nice letter, everything is summarised successfully. I recently broke up with someone who was unavailable. I’ve been ok, had good and bad days but I did something silly. I added my previous ex on facebook, the one who was almost abusive and manipulative. I was feeling down and thought of him. Sure enough he started sending me messages and eventually asked why did I add him? I said i wanted to be ‘freindly’ since we do bump into each other from time to time and he always trys something with me. Its been 2 years and he aparently still loves me and wants me back and has apologised enough times for what he did.
Truth is, I dont want him back ever, i would never actually go back there, but I uess I wanted the attention. I’ve noticed a pattern, as soon as I am not dating someone or in a relationship I usually have someone chasing. I apologised to him and removed him as a freind saying it was a mistake.
Now I need to exist iwthout any male attention for a long period of time. Whats anoying is when I start moving forward I always atttract someone…
That’s why having boundaries is awesome! You recognize unhealthy attention and you know how to deal with it pronto! You don’t have to worry about what if those annoying ones come buzzing around you. Shoo, fly.
If he ever contacts me again, I’m gonna send hem this.
I was really moved when I read this. I discovered this website a few months ago, just after my bad relationship had exploded and I still, unbelievably so, had some hope for us. I really get it now, but I keep reading every new post you write, just to let the message really sink in. There’s not yet a new man in my life, but that’s okay, I have faith that next time it will be different, because I am different now. And your letter sums it up, everything I learned. Thank you so much for helping women like me, there was a real need for lessons like this and you really make a difference.
I laughed out loud at this….so true. Really enjoy reading your posts.
Although my vagina/penis/libido says yes, I recognise that they’re not very good judges of character and that I’ll feel good now, crap later. Sex is not an automatic precursor to the relationship I want, nor is the fact that I’m horny or we have a great sexual connection indicative of the strength of our ‘relationship’. As a result, I’m going to have to say no.
Nat..you are a legend. Just woken up to embrace day 10 NC, feeling stronger everyday and this latest article has really said it all for me. Maybe I should ‘copy and paste’ the above in to my phone, so if I get “Are you awake?” any time soon, there’s my answer……..thing is he will probably be too drunk to understand it!! Or he will simply answer “Is that a no then?”
All I want to say is thank-you for finally making me see sense and helping me to choose ME.
Good luck to everyone going through this right now.
Natalie, I cried when I saw this title! And I realized why I didn’t let him get away with too much, or get too close after he fooled me once. I think that at the end of the day, I’m stronger than I thought. Whatever we do, our self-esteem and our dignity should always be there! BTW, I started recommending BR to friends who are dealing with strange men! 😉
Natalie, this is pure gold wrapped up in a Tiffany bow. Love it! The way you have written it cuts straight to the chase and heart of what I think some people, em me… fail to see through the rose coloured glasses. This I know will help shifting my ‘relationship DNA’ . Finally. Thank you, as always said with such clarity and spunk 🙂
I read the link you posted on startups. “If I say yes to you, I have to say no to something else”.
At work we advise a number of startup companies in a very tough arena (biotechnology, healthcare and drug development). It requires a huge amount of faith, commitment, money, skill and time. We deal with angel investors, inventors, scientists, attorneys. Everyone is passionate and committed to what they do. We literally have NO time to deal with flakes.
Ladies, have we really got SO much time, SO much emotional energy, SO many opportunities that we’re willing to throw it at something that is clearly failing us?
“I’m going to carry on with this half-cocked situation while I look for something better/ I’ll continue feeling miserable until the magical day arrives when I feel strong enough to leave/ I’ll stick with the casual sex, yet be available for a serious relationship/ I’ll hang onto my ex for now, even as I date other people/I’m not ready to stop being the OW yet so I’ll hang on in there until I am ready.”
It doesn’t work like that. You have to choose.
“It doesn’t work like that. You have to choose”
Amen. Some of you are trying to have the best of both worlds to avoid the vulnerability of a decision to commit to. Instead you have the crap of both worlds. Choosing not to choose is still a choice.
“It doesn’t work like that. You have to choose”
This was an important concept for me to get and to get too. It is something that I had to realise before I could do anything to help myself. I woke up one day and realised all the choosing had to come from me and I thought, *you* (insert my name) have to do something about this – he is not going to help you and he is not going to do anything about this, not for him, not for me, not for us – ever. He is not going to help this situation improve – ever. I knew that for certain then…I had failed to accept that truth before and now I saw it, clear as day and that was my springboard.
Until that point I’d done all that Grace says – I waited and hoped and waited for the magical day when he would come up trumps or for me to *feel” like folding and stay folded. Still at this point, I had no idea how I was going to help myself. No idea in the worlds where to begin. I just knew it was necessary to take some action to make the misery round-a-bout stop so I could get my bearings and get off of it. I fell upon BR/Nat, thank goodness or I honestly do not believe I’d have got this far by now, if ever. Forever grateful!
I also read the startups post. I agreed. The dot-com millionaire guy who wrote it sounded exactly like my ex-AC, who also has people clamouring for 15 minutes with him, which sent me into my usual round of self-doubt: he’s right, I’m too spineless, I’m too unfocused, I don’t have a full life of my own, everyone wants his time, no one wants mine, my skills and knowledge mean nothing on the marketplace, etc etc.
I just want to be a grown up!! God!! I want a life where people actually want to hear what I have to say, and right now I feel so gd empty-handed and adolescent.
Shhh, Magnolia. Quiet those old tapes….read Fearless’ response to me about those voices in our heads. You are not any of those things. You are a beautiful, skilled writer and you will find your place. It sometimes takes time, that’s all.
Are you putting the exAC on that pedestal again? I, for one, do NOT want even 30 seconds of your exAC’s time. And I hope to never run into him. If folks knew him the way you do, they wouldn’t either. I’m so glad for you that you are out of that relationship. He was either consciously or subconsciously triggering that self-doubt.
BTW, I like to hear what you have to say and I’m sure there are a few other BR readers out there who do as well.
Runner, lol! I guess, yes, I was putting the AC on a pedestal again. Sorry!!
I just found out that the teaching positions that I had been told were guaranteed me for this September are suddenly non-existent. So right now it looks like I have no income lined up after August … bills to pay and a diss to finish …
So this is a new, important season of really having to believe in myself … Grace – how long does it take to get a startup from concept to bazillions?? 🙂
Read this post again this morning , it’s making me laugh. Thanks Natalie for opening my eyes. I did not grow being taught boundaries and self love. But I sure am learning fast. I am currently trying to pass on all this knowledge to my daughters. However, it’s meeting with resistance, they look at each other and say all right mum, with that look, here she goes again. I would like to pass the knowledge on without nagging any suggestions on how I do this would be much appreciated. Thankyou!
Ladies (& the few gents who read/post).
As far as I’m aware, no woman has yet died from lack of cock.
Just a thought
“As far as I’m aware, no woman has yet died from lack of cock” *weeping with laughter* aaaaaaaamen!
That’s a very valid point Eve 😀
“I’m sorry to inform you your request for me to be ‘OW/ONS/b**ty-call’ etc has been declined”
I agree with this post, however.
Saying No (to the Narc EUM AC) has got me into a whole heap of problems 🙁
But saying yes would have been a different set of trouble.
Bottom line is he had no right to ask me in the first place.
If you could actually expire due to a lack of cock, it would be the most easily cured disease on earth! You wouldn’t need benefits, telethons….the EUM/AC’s of the world would be happy to oblige – no strings attached, of course! Then we’d REALLY have a hard time getting more out of them, i.e.:
Woman: Why won’t you commit to me?
EUM/AC: I saved your life, damnit. What else do you want from me?
This would clearly also be disastrous when dealing with the men suffering from acutely inflated egos! Imagine?! Thank you for cracking me up 🙂
@Eve “Death by lack of cock” lmbo!! 😀 That’s too funny. Well it’s been quite a while now since I’ve had the ‘almighty’ cock (snicker). Clearly it’s MY choice, as it’s been offered to me many, many, many times, sometimes by super-hot guys, sometimes by not-so-hot guys, always by guys who are not good enough a person to be my boyfriend. I’m not dead and doesn’t bother me a bit.
@Natasha “the EUM/AC’s of the world would be happy to oblige – no strings attached, of course!” Yes indeed they would!!! And,
“Woman: Why won’t you commit to me?
EUM/AC: I saved your life, damnit. What else do you want from me?” oh, so funny…! Thank you! To be honest I think with so many women throwing themselves at men sexually, men are starting to believe this anyway…
hahahaha!
Eve:
LMAO!!! Spot on. I waited a LONG time for my 1st time and, contrary to popular belief, I didn’t shrivel up like a prune or rot to death. As someone said earlier, I’ve spent MUCH MUCH MUCH more of my life not having sex than having it. And guess what? I’m still alive! *GASP*
Cock, dick, penis, Johnson, Peter, pecker, whatever you wanna call it….. it is NEVER that serious. Here’s an “aaaaaaaamen!” from me too.
Natalie…one of your very best posts that sums up everything you teach…reminds me of your…”I’m not that girl” post which is the one I have re read most often. If we all believed and followed what you say in just this post….we would be referring others to your site instead of waiting for the “magical” right time to move on ourselves.
When my girlfriend first started dating she was definitely a ‘yes’ girl. She hated the thought of disappointing or upsetting people if she said no. When a guy asked for her number, most of the time she would give it to him to shut him up. She didn’t always answer the phone afterwards when they rang but that was ok because she couldn’t see their reaction. However, sometimes these men were persistent and she slept with them. These one night stands are the biggest regrets of her life. They made her feel worthless, dirty and unhappy afterwards.
Over the years as she has grown up, matured and has come to know herself. She has become stronger and respects herself a lot more. She has learnt that sometimes ‘no’ has to be said whether it hurts people or not, it is her and her feelings that matter the most.
Hey, Natalie….
By the way, I wanted to let you know that I am linking to your site and have been for some time. You have an excellent site and I would be honored if you would consider linking to my site as well.
My site, which is called The Relationship Spot, is located at:
Thanks
Darren
Perfect, just perfect! I was wondering how to say all that without tears and changing my mind, etc. Thanks!
Best one yet for me! I may need to read this one every day!!!
Here’s an idea for those ladies who haven’t considered this:
I think that it’s a good idea to cultivate non-sexual friendships with members of the opposite sex. Shortly after I broke up with my ex, I joined meetup.com and made friends with both men and women. Example, last Valentine’s Day, although I could have laid in the bed crying over my ex (we broke up in January) like some of my single girlfriends, I went out to happy hour and dinner with another single lady and we were accompanied by three single men, including a gorgeous young Frenchman, who made me laugh and doted on me. It turned out to be one of the best Valentine’s Day celebrations I’d ever had. When we go out, sometimes they wine and dine me, and other times I wine and dine them. They are very affectionate and give lots of hugs and kisses (on the cheek). In a nutshell, my male friends provide the non-sexual companionship that I enjoy receiving from the opposite sex, while I work through my issues and heal from my previous EUM/FF relationship.
Gina,
Sounds healthy and fun!
All the best with your growth!
@Gina, I keep meeting/dating men who turn out to have a harem of females clucking around them. I don’t like it one bit. So I rationalize that I want to keep myself free of that, so that when I meet Mr. Right, he won’t have to put up with all that. But this has been going on for years. If there are any men who I’m not interested in, and really can handle being just a platonic friend of mine, then maybe I should just go ahead and allow some male friendships ( I have male friends/friendly acquaintances, but we don’t ‘hang out’, and we’re not flirty) But I think I would only be comfortable hanging out with them in groups with both men and other women.
As a single woman, if I were to go out alone with a man, even if I clearly tell him I’m not interested romantically, my experience has been that he assumes it means more, (and so will any other men who might have otherwise been interested in me). So I’d be scaring away men who could’ve been right for me. I live in a community where unfortunately word does tend to spread, and before long gossipers would quickly tell that I was ‘dating’ so and so, even though I’m not!
Also some men seek ‘friendships’ with pretty women, just so they can make other women in their life jealous, such as an ex, (they want to use us to make it seem as though women are ‘fighting’ for them). Then the jealous women will now hate you and start spreading rumors about you. His reputation goes up, yours takes a major hit.
But I like the ideas you have, and the way it’s been handled. I’m in a few meetup clubs too, and I see there are nice men there too, who I’m not interested in romantically. I think a couple of them might like me romantically. So if one of them asked me to do something alone, I’d have to decide what to do about that.
One guy I know has asked me if I’d like to get together and do anything. I don’t see any future with him, so I wrote back, that I wanted to make clear I’m only interested in a friendship, not more, with him, so if he was looking for more it could lead to problems. He wrote back “Oh, yeah, that’s all I want too…” But I haven’t heard from him since. Whatever.
Mel
I have the same problem as you. For me, friendships with men is only possible in mixed sex groups. We may break off into one-to-one conversations but no way could anyone describe it as a “date”.
It’s partly cultural as well. When I was in the South of France it was fine to flirt with men and everyone knew it meant nothing. Our could mean something. Either was not a big deal. It was just part of life. It seems more fraught in the anglosphere.
And age, I swear it’s easier when you’re younger and everyone is roaming around in big groups.
@ Grace, yes I can recall so many times when I’ve been ‘smacked down’ for daring to behave friendly (NOT flirty) with a man. Just one such instance was at work, an older married woman, a married man and I were just chatting. Someone mentioned another older, married man we all worked with. They said he was nice and a good worker. I agreed. But I was quickly reminded. “HE’S MARRIED!” (hussy!) I obviously knew he was married and actually found him physically repulsive anyway. But what does that have to do with me simply agreeing that he’s nice and a hard worker??
Another time a very similar situation some coworkers mentioned a male coworker, and I asked “Has he been out ill, I haven’t even seen him around in a while?” That’s ALL I said, but I was quickly ‘warned off’. “HE’S MARRIED! (hussy! homewrecker!) Duh, I know he’s married, and that has what to do with my asking if he’s been out ill? Incidentally he was also someone I wouldn’t touch with a dirty stick, anyway.
When I was much younger in my 20s I made the mistake of going out after hours for a drink with coworkers. Women were supposed to show up, but they didn’t. So it was just me and three men. I stayed less than an hour, had exactly half a light beer, and left, alone. But to hear the talk of the workplace next day. Apparently those three stayed, got drunk, and made up stories that things had gotten ‘a little out of hand’ etc. Obviously trying to capitalize on the situation boost their status (and damage my reputation) by implying that I had gotten more than friendly with them. Which wasn’t remotely true.
When I see younger girls unwittingly walking into these mistakes, I cringe and want to warn them, but sometimes some lessons are better left to find out for one’s self.
Though the business about not ever being able to even speak of a coworker. ‘He’s nice’, ‘Has he been out ill?’, etc… that’s just ridiculousness on the part of idiots.
What a great post that was from her! Excellent! True! Powerful!
Very impressive. I wish that mind set for eachand every one of us!
@Eve
lol Eve this made me laugh out so loud :))
tysm……….Greaaaaaaaat
You are SO unbelievably amazing — rock’ on, Natalie. Many blessings to you as you pour out the blessings to us with your words and wisdom. You are a life line to so many of us.
I love this site dammit. Absolutely love it.
Natalie,
I’d love for you to talk more about what actually to say to the guy. Now, not only do I have to break up with my guy (all over again, because he’s acting as though we’re still ON), I have a guy writing to me who wants to get together again “as friends” and go on a few trips together.
So I need to write two letters.
Thank you for the philosophy behind whatever is said… but I’d love to read a whole post saying nicely the things that you’re referring to here on this post.
Oh, reading your stuff has done so much for my self esteem!
Thank you so much.
Kimberly, I loved “I’m not that girl!” too!
In my opinion the only booty EUM guys deserve, is right up their arses ,preferably from someone who fits and wears a size 16 industrial work boot.
I wonder if a count could be done, how many women , just a single solitary one of these jerks hurt during their lifetime.
Just imagine , the total amount of women who have experienced emotional/physical/mental/and verbal abuse and pain caused by these creeps.
It’s enough to make a decent person vomit.
Love your letter Nat,it says it all.
I spent most of my 20’s holding out to find someone worthy enough, look up fussy, I was next to it. I’m fiercely independent and can relate to not needing man and only relying on myself. Still when your in your 30’s surrounded by couples building cubbyhole houses on weekends and jetting off on lavish os holidays. First of all opportunities to meet mr perfect ‘ea’ get slimmer as social priorities change and second of all I don’t know about anyone else but you get exhausted having to pay for and do everything yourself. No matter how many gorgeous friends you have. I am no way saying we should settle or fall off the wagon or be okay being the town bike but when u are surrounded by smug couples and happyville, it’s bloody hard to keep it up and i see that just sometimes you might have to say yes to keep your sanity! Perhaps that’s trying to have the best of both worlds but so be it.
Maree
It’s not your age, I know women in their 20s *cough* natasha who think they’re past it. You’re younger than Jennifer Aniston and Catherine Zeta Jones.
The solution is two fold and seemingly contradictory. On the one hand you have to relax and on the other … try harder. Ease up on comparing yourself to other people. There is always going to be someone prettier/skinnier/curvier/richer/more married/ blonder/ darker etc than you. Everyone has trouble in life, if not now, then later (Rupert Murdoch). They are not living in happyland with us on the outskirts. We’re all in it together.
Try harder – figure out what’s really holding you back from meeting someone. I’ve picked through all my reasons – my age (46), I can’t meet anyone, I’m asexual, I’m too independent, too lazy, too set in my ways and finally know got to what the obstacle is. It’s religious. It goes beyond the scope of this blog to get into it, but at least I know what the reason is. It may not be so complicated for you, I hope not.
As for independence, you may not be as independent as you think and that’s okay. Even my little catfish need company. Right now, they’re sat together. They are an inch long and have social needs, so how much more do we.
PS as for the biological clock, that makes it even more imperative that you figure out what’s really holding you back. And my sister got accidentally pregnant at 44, do don’t give up yet.
Aaaaaaand I just choked on my gelato hahahaha! Thank you Grace for the reality check 😉
I have an issue that’s been bugging me for quite some time, and I’m hoping that some of you wise ladies on here can offer some insight. I’m completely feeling this post and am off assclowns and Mr. Unavailables. I’m working on healing and am not actively seeking out dates right now but am trying to remain open to the possibility of a relationship developing if I meet an appropriate person.
The problem is this: I know Natalie says that never being attracted to the guys who are attracted to you means you still have issues to work out, and I’m sure that’s true. But I find that the guys who gravitate towards me now, instead of being assclowns who mean me no good, are guys who quite frankly are deeply socially awkward and make me feel embarrassed by their attentions. I just can’t imagine giving a guy like this much of a chance even if he would treat me like gold because I don’t know how we could possibly spend extensive time together without me starting to feel incredibly uncomfortable. I actually know a few women who are very friendly and seemingly normal who are married to guys like this (i.e. guys who can’t hold a remotely interesting conversation with anyone, cause some raised eyebrows over why they never make eye contact or dwell way too long on topics nobody cares to talk about) and I can’t help but wonder if this is going to end up happening to me too after a while.
Has anyone else experienced this? Thoughts?
I’ve never seen this in action so I can’t comment on these ‘socially awkward’ men you refer to. Judging these women for being with a man you don’t rate is not of much use to you – she has different values to you. She may not even regard him as socially awkward. She may just be happy.
Personally I regard someone with a lack of empathy and intimacy as being of far more of an awkward issue than someone who is socially awkward.
Also a man who dips in and out, relies on texts, or doesn’t want to act like he’s in a relationship could certainly be regarded as socially awkward.
As could be a man who is all front and not much else so he talks a good game and acts like Mr Show Pony Boyfriend in public and an asshole in private.
Many abusers and even serial killers are known as being charming and socially adept but are actually about as awkward as it gets…if you survive to tell the tale.
It’s not as simple as only being interested in the men that are interested in you that you wouldn’t have been interested in before. For a start, you don’t have to be interested in everyone that shows an interest in you anyway.
If the only men you’re ever attracted to are unavailable and/or abusers, then yes you have issues. If you find the pool of men boring now that you’ve opted out, you still have issues. If you opt out, address your self-esteem and dating habits and find more of a balance in qualities plus you don’t overvalue the wrong things, then there will be new people to meet.
Thanks for your response! You may be right that I find the pool of men boring now that I’ve opted out and still need to work on my self-esteem and being fully happy with my life the way it is. I guess what I am really asking for when I am fully healthy and ready is this: above all things, I value honesty, commitment, and having a mutually fulfilling and loving relationship, but is it wrong to ALSO value things like hitting it off well with someone, having good times together, laughing together, and that sort of thing (I guess one would call this chemistry, unless there is a better word)? I know I will run into trouble if those are the only things I value, but the truth is that without them, I tend to think I am better off being single because the relationship won’t be any fun. I don’t want to overvalue the wrong things, but I do want to have a fulfilling relationship. Thoughts?
Is it possible that with all these charming A/Cs running around, who give a ‘false’ impression of being great when they’re out and about, that there are gems out there giving the ‘false’ impression of being social misfits because they don’t feel like doing small talk?
That said, Jennifer, I can relate to your question. I know, for example, that my own father has been nearly embarrassing in social situations for most of my life, not for being an ass but for totally missing social cues, blabbing on, withdrawing and sulking, etc. I find that I have sought out a “more social” person but feel “safe” with guys who seem as though they would be less of a threat to leave me because they have a hard time with women. In my quest to find “more social” I have also assumed (and found) men who were less safe.
I’ve been learning (the hard way!) the difference between “more social” (a mack) and socially astute. I want socially astute, and like how NML reframes “awkward.” There surely are all kinds of men in whom we might find both safety and a degree of true poise?
Magnolia, in my ripe old age of 39, and my father’s even riper old age of 72, I recently experienced him in a social situation that was shockingly, painfully embarrassing — to me! And having to admit to myself that I was embarrassed just made me more uncomfortable. He merely attempted a funny remark to a rather young young woman… I would have thought it inappropriate, and she wasn’t amused either… I don’t think he knew how he was about to come across, nobody wants to get the cold shoulder. Now I’m paranoid, digging around in my brain, is this an isolated incident?!
My exEUA is a wonderful conversationalist, with an exquisitely pleasant voice and intonation, and he has a wicked sense of humor to boot. He is all razzle-dazzle when he’s in a good mood. Sadly, interpersonal complexities always put him right out of his mood. Like Nat says, that’s kind of awkward! And when he goes sulky, other humans hardly even register. Except he might read your writing if you’ve been dead for a few centuries or you live on a different continent and write in a foreign language, and you don’t expect a reply. Funny, my father lives on a different continent and doesn’t speak English, but we are in touch regularly.
Well, I think it depends on what you mean by “socially awkward”. If it’s not knowing how to do small talk, I think that’s fine. A good person doesn’t necessarily need to be good at that.
However, if “socially awkward” means repeatedly making inappropriate remarks (racist, sexist or otherwise disgusting) and then acting “astonished” if people don’t like it, I would stay away from those guys. I have met quite a few of them (beginning with my own relatives) and I don’t think they are any good.
What I’m trying to say is that “socially awkward” might, in some cases, just be a new term to excuse a certain kind of ACs.
For example, I used to be infatuated with a certain type of nerdy guys who made dirty, sexist jokes all the time, loved to talk about the “general stupidity” of women and often even tried to sexually molest women. When they talked about women, they made it sound as if every girl who was over 17, bigger than size XS and not a supermodel was not good enough for them (even if those guys were fat, ugly and over 30). If people got upset, they usually claimed they were just poor, misunderstood little boys.
I used to excuse that as being “socially awkward”, told myself that they were probably fantastic guys and wondered if it was my fault that I wasn’t a 17 years old, super skinny supermodel with perfect housewife skills. In fact, I think those guys are just as bad as all those socially adept AC.
EllyB, I don’t think that this is what is being discussed. In the context of Jennifer’s original comment, it wasn’t about them being ‘assclowns’. To illustrate the point, I highlighted the fact that much of what is valued or is gotten away with when it comes to the unavailable type could be considered socially awkward. But it isn’t considered as such. Jennifer is referring to men who she would not be ordinarily interested in and who she finds socially awkward, probably because they don’t have the confidence that many of the guys who *do* get women but who are unavailable do. I mean let’s be real – it takes a man with a level of confidence, even if he denies otherwise, to pull the same con time and again.
Racism, sexism etc are not social awkwardness / they are racism, sexism etc
Nat, I totally agree with your comment below. I think I was merely referring to Magnolia’s and Cavewoman’s comments about their fathers “missing social cues”. Somehow, this made my inner alarm bells ring (maybe wrongly). Of course, I cannot really judge this, but I don’t know whether it’s a good thing if an elderly man says “funny” things that upset young women and doesn’t seem to understand why.
While I understand why people tend to forgive their parents, I wouldn’t tolerate it in a partner if he repeatedly says things that “unintentionally” embarass women.
Maybe I’ve just heard too many of those “innocent” dirty remarks from familiy members while I was little.
I sure hope so! Thank you for your comment Magnolia, I feel that you really understood what kind of guy I was talking about.
I do not need someone to be an expert at chatting people up or a performer of any kind, but I need someone with whom I can have a genuinely intimate relationship, wherein we understand and care for each other and can talk at length about whatever we want. Of course being a little awkward is not as bad as being an assclown or something as terrible as a serial killer, but a mutually fulfilling relationship is just not possible with someone who is in outer space all the time and can’t read social cues.
I said in another response below that this is the second time I have sworn off assclowns. After the first time, I ended up with a guy whose heart I ended up breaking because his lack of normal social skills made a fulfilling romantic relationship impossible. After our breakup, what do you know, I was back on assclowns. I don’t want the same thing to happen again, but once the assclowns are out of the picture, I find myself consistently attracting only these “awkward” guys with whom I know the same thing would happen. So, what to do?
Jennifer, I’m with you 100%! I think that a truly great relationship must have the moral part in place (care, trust, respect, honesty), but also the “chemistry” you talk about. The lack of the first part is a recipe for heartbreak, whereas the lack of the second part wouldn’t differentiate a romantic relationship from a simple friendship. That’s my opinion! 😉
Jennifer, I think you’re over thinking it and really, it’s just another way of saying that you’re not entirely convinced that someone that isn’t your unavailable type can be entertaining, fun etc. You can’t force hitting it off well with someone but I don’t go out looking for it. You either do or you don’t. But just because you hit it off with someone doesn’t mean that you have shared values or they’re a great partner. Many people put GSOH on their personal adverts – I personally think it’s one of the dumbest things I’ve ever seen people ask for or state about themselves. “I’m a really funny person with a great sense of humour” – No you’re not – people who are funny don’t say shite like that. Having good times, laughing together etc is a natural extension of being around someone that you’re having a good time with and who is saying and doing things that are funny. But last I checked, you’re looking for a romantic partner, not a clown, comedian, or performing seal.
One of the things I’ve realised (and this is particularly for women) is that when you want to claim that someone is too nice and boring and find a way to legitimise your choices, your type and your thinking, the guy could be really fricking funny in reality but if you don’t want to laugh, you won’t. If you don’t want to have fun, you won’t because you’ll be too busy analysing the shit out of it and thinking about the Mr Unavailable who wasn’t worth a jot relationship wise but made you laugh and gave you some good times in between using you for a shag, an ego stroke and a shoulder to lean on.
Fun is something that can happen in *any* relationship. It is important but if your top priority is being entertained, instead of having fun as natural extension of your existence and relationship, you’ll find excitement in men who put pleasure first, your feelings lower down the rung or who think it’s funny when you try to be serious.
Go and get on with your life and stop worrying about your laugh quota. Be a fun person in your own right that’s authentic that lives congruently with the values you profess to have and you will meet someone.
I know you are replying to Jennifer and I don’t mean to butt in here, however, I relate to Jennifer’s comments as well. “But last I checked, you’re looking for a romantic partner, not a clown, comedian, or performing seal.” I’ve married and been involved with all of the above and worse. Laughed ’till I cried. Thank you for the reminder regarding importance of shared values. I’m looking forward to reading your books on shared values when summer school ends and figuring out what my values are. I wouldn’t even consider dipping my toes back in the dating world until I figure that out, not that they are lined up at the door!
I remember a while back Natalie you recieved a marriage proposal. I’m wondering if you’ll raise my daughter even though she is 21? Your kids are fortunate. Give them a hug.
Thanks Jennifer for the question and for the responses ladies. It has helped me today look forward again instead of looking back.
Jennifer,
I have experienced what you say quite a few times, not one after the other or all at once, but it has happened. I think the problem lies in the fact that the people who are and will be interested in you will always be different. If they are sooo boring or make you feel embarrassed, don’t go for them! You can’t force your feelings. But, I think it’s perfectly possible to fancy the hell out of a nice guy. It happened to me in the past, but things didn’t work out for other reasons, having nothing to do with them treating me badly, or them being boring or socially awkward (1st situation – long distance relationship, different countries, hard to handle; 2nd one – big age difference, 16 years, and I was only 19 years old and panicked). But I used to be crazy about them, and even to this day I still believe they were very worthy men. And the situation I find myself in now is quite similar. After a 1 year long “assclown saga”, there is this guy who is actually a good friend of mine, but I recently realized that my feelings for him are heading in a different direction. He’s a respectful person, has lots of common sense, may not always be “the life of the party” or the “comedian” of the group, but whenever I see him or speak to him, I feel so incredibly relaxed and I truly feel I can trust him, first of all as a person. So, it’s perfectly possible to be attracted to a good, decent man. Nice doesn’t equal boring or socially awkward. I wish you good luck! 😉
Jennifer
I hazard that 1. you’re hooked on charm and 2. other people’s husbands are not trying to impress you – a good thing!
There’s a reason that EUMs are charming … practice.
Everyone has something they shine at. My brother isn’t a terrific conversationalist but he’s reliable, trustworthy, a good father and can fix anything, that’s way more useful to his wife than an ability to chat up women.
Haha, good point. I will keep working on my self-esteem and hopefully will see these nicer guys in a better light soon enough.
Jennifer – i don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting an exciting guy who can make you laugh, BUT – he should be trustworthy, respectful and a decent person AS WELL. Most people focus on the personal qualities and ignore or make exceptions for the person’s character because they are infatuated. The ‘decent person’ bit should come *before* the ‘charming, talented, funny’ bit. The two are not mutually exclusive.
I know plenty of men (friends’ partners mostly) who are funny, intelligent, socially adept, but they are also really good people, of good character.
Before i met the boyfriend (who is the life and soul of the party, very intelligent and a really decent guy), i met a lot of nice guys that i just didn’t hit it off with, for reasons completely unknown to me. There’s nothing wrong with that. You can’t fancy everyone that fancies you. One day you will find the dencent bloke with the great personality. You deserve it and should not compromise or settle. Being single is preferable in my opinion :).
Completely agree, Minky. My new guy is someone people want to be around – funny, insightful, entertaining – but, more important, he’s decent and honest to a fault, caring, reliable and attentive. I found the first set of qualities in the AC, but the last qualities were patchy and subject to his desires and needs. I got the order the wrong way around and paid big! I agree with Natalie too – real laughter (not that slightly hysterical, possessive type!) and (sustainable) excitement spring from feelings of kindness and emotional safety. Besides, super funny people almost always have the capacity to be mean or depressed. They don’t have to be, but the risks are there.
Yes, perhaps you are all right. I guess that, in trying to internalize the message of this site and of “Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl,” I am trying to fully understand what the message is. “No more ACs,” ok got that part. But for me, after that comes “give way to much time to guys who are thrilled to talk to me because nobody else wants to talk to them,” and I don’t see that discussed on here. I had the experience of my last relationship to show that you can’t force it with someone even if they adore you, but I still keep asking myself whether I might be crazy and still “hooked on charm,” which I feel like the site is telling me might be the case. So I’m confused.
Hi Jennifer, I know that you feel that I don’t ‘get’ you and that’s fine.
This site represents a message of empowering yourself to have better relationships and self-esteem. Offload your baggage and rediscover yourself.
Yes, not being involved with Unavailables and ACs is part of it but it’s not about aligning yourself with the first man that gives you the time of day and isn’t doing obvious shady stuff.
Love and live with your self-esteem in tow. You can tell a lot about how someone feels about themselves by their relationship:
ACs – self-abuse, focused on good points and good times, needing love against the odds for it to feel like love, trying to get them to change, avoiding yourself, think all attention is created equal, may equate AC behaviour with excitement, passion, connection, and ‘personality’, little or no boundaries, may see yourself as a victim
Staying in a relationship with someone that you don’t fancy, feel is socially awkward and a shag rate of once a year – trying to dodge an AC, punishing yourself for a previous mistake, avoiding intimacy, validating off their unreciprocated interest, privately repulsed by their interest and may lose respect for them for not seeing the things that you don’t like about you and for also being ‘too nice’, settling, thinking about settling, afraid to address your issues so focusing on their inadequacies, think the universe owes you a good man that ticks your boxes because you’ve previously cut your teeth with an AC,
I won’t go on.
The message I put out there is not to trade up to a person you don’t like, love or respect but to address why you make the choices you do in the first place, address your feelings about love, relationships and yourself, treat you well, get on with your life.
Jennifer, I think you need to focus more on what you need from a relationship and whether those needs are being met than on what a guy looks like from the outside. If some people roll their eyes whenever he is talking, so what? Maybe those people are ACs themselves. Think about it.
On the other hand, there is certainly a kind of annoying guys who are just plain immature/self-centered. I’ve probably spent too much time with hardcore computer nerds and know what I’m talking about. Those ones are probably not sociopaths, but rather on the other end of the spectrum (Asperger’s/Autism). When they chat with me, they talk about whatever is in their mind and are completely oblivious to the fact that I might be more interested in another topic right now (even if it’s also within their own field of knowledge) or might even like to talk about my own experiences sometimes! It’s as if I’m not really there (which, again, feels a lot like my childhood). Plus, they usually still live with their moms, no matter their age, and are almost completely clueless about everyday life. I could never imagine a relationship with such a guy, and I don’t think I have to.
However, the reason for this is not that those guys are “embarrassing”. It’s that I wouldn’t get anything out of such a relationship, other than a constant headache. And who wants that?
Anyway, I think this kind of extreme social “awkwardness” is quite rare, at least outside the computer world. Most guys are definitely not like that!!
Practice. On my second date with EU, I don’t remember what I said but it was to tease him about how I’m on to his smoothness and breeziness, and he’s like
“Ouch, you’re saying that as if you thought I’m some gigolo!” [insert very French accent]
Not quite yet, but I immediately started wondering why the heck he’s protesting so much.
Hahaha! That’s cool, Cavewoman!
About us “not looking for an entertainer”, that’s true: as I said before, it’s not a tragedy if he’s not “stand-up comedian/ life of the party” material, but one trait which I feel is a must is positivity. I think it sucks when he has a tendency to complain about everything (at the same time not being willing to change things), or seeing the glass-half-empty all the time, no matter how faithful/honest he is as a partner. Once I met a guy who really seemed to be a good, trustworthy guy. But all he did was complain: having walked for an hour and his feet being swollen (not even my 89 year’ old grandad does that 😛 ), his job and workmates being sh*te (but not wanting to look for something else), having to spend his days looking for furniture for his new house, and, last but not least…the big number of girls who dumped him in the past! Soooo…imagine what influence would a guy like that might have had on me or another girl!
In conclusion: I would replace GSOH with “positive attitude”. I think it’s much more important! 😉
Thank you all so much for your comments! I think Magnolia and Sandra81 really accurately described the kind of thing I’m talking about. I’m not talking about a guy who is amazing in every way but is just not a hysterical clown; I’m talking about a guy who misses social cues, who talks at length about things I find boring, and who is honestly not fun to be with. NML, I know you say I’m overthinking it, but the reason is that the last time I swore off assclowns, I ended up with a guy like this who really did care for me, but we had a terrible relationship (for me – sex 3 times in 3 years, I kid you not) and a terrible breakup (for him, because he was crazy about me). Now that I have sworn off assclowns for the second time, I find myself attracting this same type of guy once again (to the exclusion of anyone else), and I am wondering what is going on and what kind of guy I can reasonably expect to be with. I don’t need a clown, but I need someone whose company is enjoyable to me and with whom I can share genuine emotional intimacy. I want to believe there are available people who are like this, but so far my experience has not been great.
Incidentally, my father is also not an assclown in the least but misses social cues, talks about boring things, and generally alienates many people with his inane chatter.
Jennifer, it’s a bit like trying to use a drill when you need a hammer, or basically trying to take a shortcut. The answer when you decide to stop dating assclowns isn’t to latch on to the nearest nice guy with internal daddy workings in a different package – it’s to sort *you* out. The issue is not that the men you are now attracting miss social cues; it’s the fact that you haven’t addressed your own issues. What’s the point in concerning yourself about why someone you’re not attracted to misses social cues when you should be concerning yourself about you?
Just because someone is nice doesn’t mean you have to go out with them. I mean seriously, you’re not that desperate or at least you shouldn’t be. If you’re with someone that shags on average once per year, is boring, misses social cues and alienates many people, it’s time to ask yourself why you were with him? https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/the-polar-opposites-game-in-dating-relationships/
Jennifer,
Maybe, like me, you then give these guys too much time of day? If they put you off immediately then why have they had the opportunity to talk to you so much you worry that you are a magnet for this type? If you’re anything like me, you have felt sorry for them and entertain their chatting in order not to be rude, and then find them looking at you all sweet eyed (probably because you’re the first girl in ten who has listened to them for that long!). I also secretly over-identified with them (hey, I’m my father’s daughter) and so wouldn’t want to be dismissive of someone that might be actually like me.
What you might want to think about is how, as we improve our own self-esteem and know that we are worth listening to, we ourselves start speaking with more interest in other people, sharing appropriately and excusing ourselves gently if our interlocutors can’t do the same.Some of these “missing social cues” people are caught up in themselves, droning on because they don’t know how to care about what’s going on for the other person. That’s a kind of EU anyway. So why would you feel you have to go out with EU people?
Mag
Good point. A strange looking man asked me out the other day (he was wearing long shorts and a baseball cap, apologies if that’s how anyone’s man dresses). I smiled and said no, I had to go get my train. Then later I got annoyed “Is that the kind of man I’m attracting now!”. Then I realised it was not a big deal and didn’t prove anything.
Also Jennifer, I think three years is a long time to be in a terrible relationship. Even if he wasn’t EU (and the jury is out), your self-esteem can still say no. No to boring relationship with sex once a year.
Jennifer, I agree with Magnolia and Grace. Maybe you father has “taught” you to tolerate far too much weird behavior and therefore you feel obliged to listen to those guys, even if it is painful to you.
Could it be that you are stuck between two different “flavors” of disfunctionality? Maybe one represents your father and the other one your mother (if she had some AC traits), or some other important person from your childhood?
Maybe you just didn’t notice all the emotionally healthy guys out there, because you never got close to any emotionally healthy person as a child.
This is an absolutely classic of a post Natalie and has come at just the right time (again! All your posts seem to!)
I cannot tell you how much this site has helped me. I’ve occasionally taken a step forward and 2 back, and thought What the Hell is the point? Maybe I’m meant to be just single forever and have fun with all the AC’s I seem to attract. Currently 3 of them all lurking around in one way or another!
I know now though that this is my own doing and have been still annoyed with myself at my ability to just say NO and put them behind me. I think for fear of seeming rude and wondering ‘if only’… Making myself the exception etc.. It’s text book stuff!!
This post made me laugh out loud as after a week of ‘waiting for a text back’ from one of these guys I assumed that was it, all over, never hear from him again, and then of course he texted last night. He is weird he doesn’t booty call, rather just says what he’s been up to for the week, maybe asks me a question relating to my previous text, and then says “Have a great weekend xx” No mention of catching up. WEIRD! I guess I’m an ‘option’ to him… Normally I text back too quickly then of course am disappointed when I don’t hear back in a reasonable amount of time. I remember on our first date telling him “I’m not really a texting sort of person, I prefer phone calls” and he agreed with me, so I thought Great! We’re on the same page… Anyway, somehow we’ve developed this ‘text pal’ sort of thing. This post has certainly resonated that it’s me that needs to change to remedy this situation. Last night after his text I was wondering what to do next and was thinking I would just completely go no contact and if he wants to see me he can just call. But your post has made me think this would be hilarious to email him! But part of me thinks god, haven’t I spent enough time with regards to draughting/rewording emails/texts etc to him!
Main thing is to not give them attention but focus back on yourself and keep really positive, and yes that even if it takes a while there is definitely someone better than them out there. All the best ladies!
Bell,
By responding to these nothing texts, you’re giving him the ego stroke he needs.
I would ask yourself, what do you get out of having contact with this fool?
Please, do not send a letter.
Go NC!
Bell,
I completely agree with Allison, but want to add one more thing: going “no contact” doesn’t mean that you don’t get in touch with him and instead wait for him to get in touch with you. It means you are not in touch with him at all, *even if* he contacts you. The idea is to wash him out of your life, not manipulate him into getting in touch with you. Yes, he will probably get in touch with you given enough time but that is no good to you because he won’t have changed at all and you will just get dragged down again.
Good luck with this, he sounds like a creep and you are better off without him!
Bell
They can jerk you around without having sex with you. Don’t imagine that not having sex = greater respect. He can’t even be arsed to shag you!
As for this “he texts me x times, I text y times, the time between texts is a, b, c squared, therefore I am up/down/winning/losing” – please don’t give texting this much energy. I did it for six months and it near drove me mad. It’s so trivial!
Bell, you told him at the getgo are not a text person and you prefer phone calls. How many times has he phoned you? He basically disregarded what you said to him.
This texting malarky is a disaster, Bell. If he had *genuine* interest, he would have phoned you after your first date and arranged another, etc. He hasn’t done that = he’s not looking for a proper relationship. He seems like a non-starter to me – like that one horse that refuses to take off when the race starts. I’d bin it if I were you.
Thanks ladies. Yes I completely know I should not have anything more to do with him, all my friends say the same thing. Have left it alone, not even sent a carbon copy of Natalie’s email 🙂 That was (kind of) a joke!
I am so busy this week that I’ve not given him any more thought until I thought I better look up this fab site again. I don’t think deep down he’s a bad person. But pretty useless at committing to anything. You will laugh but also on our first date he said he hadn’t had a relationship for 2-3 years ‘basically because I’m crap”. I laughed at the delivery of it at the time, it was very dry and funny. But did also think *Yep, people tell you who they are – you just need to be listening*
A recently married friend of mine said as soon as she met her husband she was treated in a way she’d never been treated before – that is, very well, with respect, care, regard. She realised all the other guys that had come before him were just mucking about and mucking her about. It all became so obvious then. It’s becoming gradually clearer to me. I just need to stay away from their attempts at ego strokes (and humour!) and build further self respect for myself. Thanks again everyone. All your posts ring true. “he can’t even be arsed to shag you” – his loss haha – brilliant grace 🙂
Have to say I agree with your friend Bellaninha – I recognised when I met the boyf that he was behaving totally differently to other guys but also, *I* was not my usual self and very calm instead of being agitated and half-hearted. When you stop taking the piss with yourself, you recognise when others are taking the piss with you and hit your flush handle. You need to be in the market for some reality though – your current guy with his “crap” self sure isn’t it.
Thank you for having “all of our backs”, Nat!
Men are exhausting, seriously.
I mean, they can be sexy as hell, and funny and strong.
But most of the time they are just A GIANT PAIN IN THE ASS/ARSE. lol
Ah, I think this heat in NYC is getting to me! 🙂
And there it is. *APPLAUSE*
(off to read comments…..)
@LEIGH
Your advice sounds great how to get over those ACs………i think too its good to have a plan when we get overwhelmed with thoughts by them……..
Over time it will be better and then we really can live the letter that Nat wrote
I just broke up with my boyfriend. Lately we have been arguing a lot about him not respecting my feelings. Our last argument was about him always saying “maybe” to making plans but even when he knew is week he didn’t want to make definitive plans (though we always saw each other). I argued that his showing up even 4 days of the week at his convenience still showed a lack of value of my time. he felt it didnt matter as long as we saw each other.
we kept arguing and he said “i was acting like a b.i.t.c.h” this is after speaking over me, rolling his eyes and telling me how much nonsense i speak. When we argue, I never shout, swear or disrespect him so I got upset and told him it wasnt okay for him to call me names when we argue even if its just the B word. He said he didn’t see a problem with it and wouldn’t care if I called him names. I said we are two different people and that he hurt my feelings. He shrugged. Eventually he left and he didnt contact me for a week and half. Eventually I texted him that we should talk at some point “he said he planned on coming around that day.”
he came around and said nothing for 20mins, anything i asked or said he said he “I dunno” so eventually i asked him why he came to talk to me if he didnt know what to say. He said that “he knew eventually he would have to come talk to me.” I said you dont have to do anything.
I then told him about all the little ways he hurts my feelings and that instead of acknowledging it, he defends his behaviour. I also spoke to him about him treating me like a burden he has to deal with, and ignoring my texts at his convenience if he doesn’t like what i say, or just not responding to me when I talk until he is done surfing the net.
he then said ” i recognise ive stopped trying.” and left it at that.
I said, “i cant force you to try, i know i dont have that power, maybe we should just be friends. he said okay.”
I burst into tears and tried to talk to him about my feelings, he said he felt weird about me talking to him and left.
i then texted him and said ” you should have fought for me, for two people who love each other as much as we do, u gave up too easily.” he didnt text back.
I guess im wondering did my “SELF ESTEEM SAY NO TOO QUICKLY.” i feel like if i had said nothing about him saying maybe to plans or if i had just called him names back we would still be together
Er, Jane
Reality check. My ex – AC (the one who pushed me down the stairs and punched me etc) would act like this whenever I tried to tell him how I felt – eye rolling and basically taking the piss. And you know what? Of all the things that he did, it was the piss -taking that still rankles! It’s extremely irritating and immature.
As I read your comment, the thing that came across to me loud and clear is that he doesn’t give a flying fig about you. Fight for you? No. Now you’re no longer convenient to him, he’s disappeared until such time that he thinks you’ve learned your lesson and he can come back and disrespect you some more. Make no mistake, if you take him back he will treat you even worse – because he knows you have NO boundaries. Your self esteem did not say no too quickly, it said it too late. Still, better late than never.
Let me broadcast this loud and clear:
The day that you pour our your heart in A TEXT is the day that you must realise IT’S OVER.
Don’t be his friend. NC him. He’s an absolute and complete waste of the planet’s resources.
And I’ve said it before, if the survival of the relationship depends on you putting up and shutting up, then walk away. You’re not his slave. FREEDOM!
What grace said and read this:
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/why-explaining-reexplaining-disrespect-is-like-saying-im-open-to-negotiating-on-my-boundaries/
and
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/women-who-talk-think-too-much-wasting-time-explaining-discussing-with-men-that-dont-want-to-listen/
We have been together for three half years, he broke up with me twice, first because he “just didnt feel the same” but then we were FWB then second because “he just didnt feel the same” then we were FWB. after i finally stopped talking to him for a few weeks and he realised i was getting close to someone else, he came to see me, gave me a speech about how i was perfect and he loved me. this time i broke up with him but it feels as though he was already out of the relationship. he is my first love, the only bf i have ever had, he is not a bad person but he thinks about himself first and it seems to be effort to think about me that half way through the relationship he gives up, it causes arguments then he gets frustrated by the arguing and bails. I don’t know what it means to be without him and it feels like i will never find anyone else.
he never cheated or looked at other women, he just couldnt be bothered to make it work with him, which hurts because as there is no one else, i assume it must be something with me
maybe thats my issue? I don’t think he is a bad guy, i think he is someone who does inconsiderate things. growing up I was taught that if a man doesn’t cheat or beat you, he is basically a keeper, although i know that there are a million ways someone can hurt me without cheating or beating me, there is a part of me that feels like i should just live with it and try and work it out because many women have it worse and what if the next bf does all that nonsense and cheats too?
Jane, 1, I suggest you read https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/getting-real-about-recognising-inappropriate-relationship-behaviour-he-doesnt-need-to-cheat-or-beat-to-be-an-assclown/ and 2) stop the madness. Please.
Jane
It was OTT for me to say he’s a waste of the planet’s resources. But he’s certainly a waste of YOUR resources. There’s no such thing as the perfect break up. It’s always messy. It doesn’t change the fact that it’s over and to keep going back to do it better is only going to cause you more pain.
Jane, you just broke up with him – of course it feels like you won’t find someone else. Fact is, you could have stayed silent. He’d still be the same guy so if you think that silencing your concerns or needs would have given you the golden ticket, you’re very mistaken. Fact is, you’re trying to force someone to respect you and participate in your relationship – that’s not the reason why your relationship isn’t working. No doubt there are other reasons but you’re describing a man that is immature both emotionally and behaviour wise that is disrespectful and isn’t really participating in the relationship. It’s not about him being a bad person; you don’t need to villianise him, but fact is, you’re flogging that donkey till it collapses here. If he can’t be bothered to make it work, it’s not going to work. You cannot ask him to make it work – he either does or he doesn’t. There are two of you here and you can’t do all of the loving, giving and doing. You also can’t expect to voice your concerns and for him to skip with joy, especially when he prioritises his own feelings and needs and doesn’t really consider the impact of his actions on yours.
Fact is, conflict is unavoidable. You are mistaking your needs for his needs and making his actions about you. His actions are about him. You can’t make him be and do something that he isn’t or he doesn’t want to be. It’s not about you lacking something that causes him to be this way – he is this way. This is the same guy who broke it off with you twice because he didn’t feel the same and shagged you as a friend. This is a relationship that has lasted long past its sell by date because he only valued you when he thought he was in danger of losing you to someone else – you can’t keep starting a relationship elsewhere for him to rise to the occasion.
A man should never have the opportunity to tell you not once, but twice that he doesn’t feel the same about you. You are worth better than this. I’m sorry that you’re hurting – it will get better when you stop allowing this man to reject you repeatedly.
Thank you, I think I needed to hear that. I am 22yrs old and I have been all about him since i was 18yrs. He is my “first” in every single sense of the word. I treated him better than i do my family and friends, I just could never under why someone i tried so hard to be good too, kept constantly hurting me. it hurt because everyone around me seemed to be having functioning happy relationships and being with him always felt like a struggle but the minute i feel like im losing him, i panic and i cant bare to be without him. I felt like I would feel better because i broke up with him this time but i still ended up being the one suggesting we stay friends, hugging him and asking him to stay longer than he clearly wanted too. I dont know whats wrong with me!
there were times in the relationship when he admitted he was the problem and promised to be better and things were good for a while.
Hi Jane,
First, sorry to hear that you are in some fresh pain. Glad to see, though, that you made a good decision to respect yourself. For what it’s worth, I was 36 before I realized I could and should break up with someone for behaving the way your ex-bf did with you. Wish I had learned that lesson in my early 20s! I hear the sadness in your post but I’m super impressed that you have come so far and learned so much in your first relationship. Hugs as you take some time for yourself, focus on why you’re awesome and what’s next for you.
Jane,
it wasn’t anything you did, he had his mind made up already. He’s so passive aggressive and lazy that he didn’t even have the decency to break up with you. He got you to do even that for him. I’m so sorry. You obviously saw more potential to the guy, believe me I’ve been there, we all have. You were not asking for too much, and you deserve to get it. First, you have a lot of grieving ahead of you for the guy you thought he was. Waste no time wishing you had stooped to his level and called him names to keep him – that is not the relationship you want, either.
Jane, he is very disrespectful – calling you bitch is totally unacceptable along with the rest of his careless and selfish behaviour. And it seems the issues you had with him at the start continued throughout the relationship.
You can bring a horse to water but you can’t make him drink it. And it’s the same with this guy – you can’t make him act towards you the way you want him to.
And the bottom line is he hurts you over and over and rejects you over and over., please don’t do it to yourself anymore. At 22, you have your whole life ahead of you. This guy isn’t the only fish in the sea and there are way better men than him out there.
In my opinion,you have actually shed a massive load of excess baggage by ditching him. This isn’t called baggage reclaim for no reason!
“Also a man who dips in and out, relies on texts, or doesn’t want to act like he’s in a relationship could certainly be regarded as socially awkward.
As could be a man who is all front and not much else so he talks a good game and acts like Mr Show Pony Boyfriend in public and an asshole in private.”
Um, Natalie? Have you met my husband? LOL This is him to a TEE! He is as charming as a fox in a henhouse, until and unless he doesn’t get his way…or if he doesn’t feel like “behaving” anymore. He actually reminds me of a cross between a toddler and a puppy. All cuteness and funny antics, but when you try to have a conversation or look into his eyes. BLANK. NADA. Nobody home! He actually acts like a single man with a maid/cook/blow up doll.
I already left him once and will be leaving him for good ASAP. The problem is that he’s pushed me down so far, I lost my job in the spring due to the stress of living with him. Now I’m unemployed with nothing on the horizon. I literally CAN’T leave – I have no money. I will lose everything and I have a daughter to support. I have been biding my time until I can find a job but it’s starting to really wear me down. Even his oblivious butt is noticing my mood is “off”.
My brain says stay until I have an income – my heart says GET THE EFF OUT ALREADY. What do I do?
wicked
Don’t want to beat you when you’re down , but this is why women need a measure of financial independence. I don’t know how realistic it is, but there’s a lot to be said for a “bolt fund”, a few thousand tucked away for such an eventuality. And if you don’t use it, spend it on your golden wedding anniversary!
Can you take your daughter and stay with relatives or friends? It doesn’t have to be for long, a few weeks to get your head together. Or give you time to kick him out of the house. Or maybe give him a jolt of reality. Hm, maybe it’s time to see a lawyer.
Don’t just wait. A week becomes months becomes years.
grace, lawyers will bankrupt you even if you did have a little something tucked away. I can sympathize with where wicked is coming from.
Somewhere deep down during my marriage I did things, just in case, like I innocently kept this stash of money. It wasn’t *our* emergency fund, it was mine and only I knew about it. I wasn’t thinking about it, I just had it tucked away. I was simply married with kids, not scheming to rip off my children’s –granted, financially flaky– father, so in my mind it was honestly ‘for an emergency’. Not in my worst nightmare were attorneys fees going to be the emergency. How clueless was I really? Two months before my ex decided to become my ex, I left a good full-time job for a less professional, part-time position. To be at home with the kids more.
Obviously I felt naive for not having pursued my career and my independence like an intelligent modern woman would. On the other hand, *he* is the deadbeat, and I am the one who was acting in good faith all along. It’s only naivete in hindsight.
wicked it is hard, and it will take time, but it is doable. Stay true to yourself and take good care of yourself, so you can take good care of your daughter.
…I received this advice at a time when I thought I would go crazy over an A/C I had been seeing and felt like I had to so “something” to get him to see the light… well it was “me” who needed to see the light & the something I needed to so was No Contact!
…No Contact IS doing something!
thank you Natalie… you are wise beyond your years.
Peace to all!
Grace ‘sigh’ , you are right:) thank you. hehe I think of my friend Jen often, maybe we should send her an invite to br? Lighten up, less talk more action, get off my ass and make it happen, I’m on it. I have been far too laid back and nice for my own good, just waiting for my perfect life partner to arrive or appear or finally recognize my true value. I always thought I did but maybe deep down I didn’t and I’m always reserved to put my heart on the line. But now I know I haven’t pushed hard enough for me, but everyone else but me. So now i’m ‘but what about me!’ no bloody wonder. The universe doesn’t work magic on it’s own does it. As for self autopsy on the issue front…well, will work on finding that one!
No one died from lack of cock… but what about loneliness? Not having someone to talk to, to hold, not to feel loved – at least for a bit? What if this person IS your only option, after a long time of dating “good” guys – unattractive, boring, demanding, crap in bed?… And you’re not getting any younger and prettier, so what should you do? Be proud and on your own, or be with someone – ok, not an ideal situation and maybe painful – but surely, if you know you’re not going to get anything better?… and I don’t need to hear about my self-esteem – I’m just being realistic, girls – all guys my age who are anything are dating girls ten years younger…
Mima, you’re only speaking for yourself. You’ve got to do whatever works for you. If you being lonely involves massaging that with a cock and being with someone who is an actual cock, please, knock yourself out. Fact is, you know you’re not going to get anything better because this is what you’re happy with. It’s your mindset, it’s your belief, and it’s how you act. Fact is, I personally know (and this is aside from readers that I hear from) women who are in their 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s who have found love again. They are friends, family members, acquaintances. So you’re free to think and do as you like but just remember, this is a choice you’ve made. There always have been other options. And to be quite frank, if all you’re looking for is attractive, exciting, undemanding, good in the sack walking, talking penis that will talk to you (for a bit), hold you (for a bit) and give you some crumbs of love (for a bit), Mr Unavailable is your perfect match.
Mima, I’ve been guilty of thinking that I’m never going to find love, that all the good ones are taken already etc., etc. However, I found that if I REALLY make an effort to snap out of it and realize that I’m, to be frank, being ridiculous – it works! I’ve also fallen into the “all that’s left is the jerk-offs” mindsest and guess what? All I ended up invovled with were jerk-offs. A painful situation is a painful situation – it’s not a 50% painful, 50% happy situation – it just plain hurts. One of my biggest regrets is that I didn’t realize how jacked-up and negative my beliefs were years ago and take some time alone (aka, with no EUMs/ACs lurking) to deal with it. I can honestly say that I would have been 500% better off dealing with twinges of loneliness than putting myself in crap situations with crap guys. Hope this helps!
mima
I was never lonelier than when my ex player got out of bed to go home. It was absolutely crushing. Nothing I’ve felt in the five years of singledom since we broke up has come even close to that.
And, unfortunately, the fatal flaw in your plan is that Mr Unavailable, especially the charming exciting type is very shallow. He’s actually going to be less interested in older women than a Mr Available who’s looking for more substance. The ex player was 11 years younger than me. When I asked him if he liked older women, his response was a horrifed NO. I just happened to look younger so I got a pass. I was 38 and he told me I had “ten good years left”. Of course that was my cue to get out but I didn’t. Eight years have passed and I’ve still got all my teeth thank you very much.
I actually think that men are LESS judgemental of women’s looks than we are. I get that there are men who score us like we’re in a cattle market but I think most red-blooded men who haven’t shagged themselves into a state of desensitised cynicism are just happy and even grateful for a woman to share her body with him.
By the way, I’m not single because I’m older, I’ve realised I could meet a man quite easily. I have religious issues. Always had them but at least I recognise it, instead of chasing after unavailable men, knowing full well that it was never going to come to anything permanent.
if you feel that time is running out (I’m not sure that it is), surely it’s time to be more picky, not less picky? And think about what’s really holding you back. I’d discount a few other things before I settled on age. For instance, if you’re already with someone in a “painful situation” , your chances of meeting anyone are extremely minimal.
I agree with all of you, Natalie, Natasha and Grace. I guess I’m living proof. When I met the only halfway decent guy I’ve been with , I was in my early twenties (my only “advantage” compared to now), but also 30 pounds heavier, with bad skin, questionable style and extremely awkward and insecure.
In my mid-twenties, I lost weight, my skin improved, I became more extroverted, and I started looking far better. Men suddenly became anxious to please me (instead of mostly ignoring me, as they did before). Anyway, I got involved with one weird, ugly AC loser after another, telling myself “I have to stick with this one because nobody else would want me”.
Now I’m in my thirties, but I think my odds at finding someone decent are as good (or better) than ever before. I just need to look for the right ones, and stop dismissing good guys for the wrong reasons.
EllyB, I went through a very smiliar thing! As a teenager I had bad skin that resisted the ministrations of every dermatologist, facialist, etc., I was chunky and never one of “the pretty girls”. It can be very, very hard to stop seeing ourselves as unattractive and overlooked by the opposite sex. I love your last paragraph – that is some serious wisdom lady 🙂
Mima…..i disagree with you here. I don’t believe we should settle for someone just to have someone in our life. Its not fair on them and its not fair on you either. We’re not in the last chance saloon! You could find love at any stage of your life. If you think of someone as your only option, you’re putting a cap on finding the right person and finding the fulfilling relationship you desire.
Personally, i prefer to be single and feel lonely from time to time rather than be in a r/s that is , deep down, unfulfilling, even though he may be a nice, decent guy, etc. and tick all the boxes. But if you don’t truly love the guy, you won’t be happy in the long run anyway.
I was just talking about my last proper relationship today with a friend of mine, which was in 2006,. Anyways, he was a really sweet guy, decent to the core, reliable, good looking, kind, caring guy and my family and friends all approved of him. He ticked all the boxes but i ended the relationship ,after a year and a half, as it just was not fulfillling and I knew, deep down I didn’t love him and would never love him. Sure, i cared about him a lot but it wasn’t the same as loving him. At the end of the r/s, i was becoming unhappy and miserable because I wanted more – a fulfilling relationship and really, towards the end of the relationship, I was living a lie and that’s no way to live.
@Mima and all of the women who are touch-deprived (I know I’ve been!)
If you are truly longing for loving touch, and very often sex is what we accept from these assclowns instead of the love we need, a professional massage if you can afford one is one of the best gifts you can give yourself. Don’t get me wrong, I love a good romp in the hay, but I get the feeling that a more constructive way of getting the loving touch you are looking for is a really good massage. It’s like a hug from the massage therapist to you, and more iumportantly, it’s a hug from you TO you, a way to do something loving for yourself. And you won’t have to pay for it in misery afterward.
Hugs to you,
D.
Rising Up, you’ve reminded me that I must book myself a birthday massage on Thursday along with my overdue pedicure.
Happy birthday, NML!
I hope this year brings you everything you wish for, and it looks to me like you’ve put more than enough out into the Universe to make it happen for your own foxy self. 🙂
Ah thank you! I turned 34 5 mins ago 😉
Happy Happy Birthday NML! So young……
rising up
I’m lucky in that I have five nieces. I’m that annoying aunt who’s always hugging and kissing! Thankfully, one of my nieces is extremely cuddly, two of them tolerate it, the fourth likes it usually and the fifth is seven months old so can’t get away.
I agree with that solution Rising Up!
I love to be touched. I am a very affectionate person. I love hugs, I love cuddling, I love non-sexual physical contact (and sexual too of course lol). More importantly I love feeling safe, secure, cared for and cherished and often times while a Mr. Unavailable can provide a bit of touch therapy, often times it is purely sexual or pseudo-affectionate until they get sex and you KNOW the difference. You know that it will be short lived, you know that you better enjoy it now because he may not have much time tomorrow or next week or next month, you feel like you’re on borrowed time and while that hug, kiss or cuddle may feel good in the moment, you’re almost counting down when it will be up.
Like you said, a massage doesn’t come with that misery. I have tried to “take what I can get” and enjoy companionship and affection from unavailable men but it almost never left me feeling satisfied but ALWAYS longing for more. I didn’t want a man whose supply seemed to have an expiration date or time limit where I had to hurry up and get it now. I didn’t want to have to bargain and negotiate for affection. I want someone who actually cherishes me and our bonding is genuine and energizing, where I am secure in that he will be there whenever I need or want a hug, kiss, cuddle and that outside of the physical acts, his entire being wants me, wants to be around me. That is what I think many women crave and deserve but settle for faux forms of it.
I am in my early twenties Mima, and trust me, it makes no difference as Mr.Unavailables are out and about and I’ve attracted them at my age as well. I have felt like all the good guys existed on another planet and I too have settled for less than just to not be lonely…..age is not the real reason, and yes you don’t want to hear about self esteem, but that’s the reality. Self worth is what affects what you put up with, what you believe is out there for you etc. A woman at 23 with poor self worth and poor relationship habits will find herself in the same position as a woman of 63 with the same problem.
@grace,
Bless the annoying aunts! I have one of those and she’s one of my best friends and biggest cheerleaders now.
Love your comments!
Thank you all for your comments! And Natalie of course, even though you are a bit… blunt! And Happy (belated) Birthday! I read this blog every day, like it a lot, though as you may notice not doing really well in implementing the theory…
First of all – what is wrong with wanting to be with someone attractive, fun and good in bed? I was married to someone who did not look after himself and became very unattractive, with whom I did not have sex more then once a month (if I’m lucky) and who’s idea of fun was going to the pub, cooking dinner and then eating it in front of the telly… but he was a reliable, good man, cared about me and wanted to be with me all the time – and of course I was in love with him, but also was very unhappy and felt like I was buried alive… in the end we grew apart, he had an affair and we had a divorce. I was with him for 13 years.
So since I became single I was dating all sorts of guys – most of them older, boring (as in sending you to sleep), and single for a reason … and none of them thought I was anything special. The guy I’m with now – it’s not only about sex or his appearance (though I forgot what is like to be with someone who’s hot!), he makes me feel happy when I’m with him, he’s full of life and he thinks I’m attractive, and sexy… We talk every day, even though we are not in the “committed relationship”, and we see each other three days a week… so it will end soon, I know it will – but I’m sure I will never meet anyone like him, and I will be absolutely heartbroken knowing that he is with someone else – I think I stupidly fell in love with him. ..
I know I sound like a teenager and not like someone who’s nearly 40 – but the one thing I don’t understand about Natalie’s advice – do I really need to be with someone who is not good looking, who is dull and not into sex to have a “real” relationship? Am I supposed to go on the dates with people who I don’t like and hope I will like them later? It doesn’t really work…I would love to change the way I think, but how?
Mima, I’ll be honest – when you come along and basically say “yeah but no but yeah I’m lonely for penis and ladies having self-esteem is a crock” I think I can more than afford to be as direct with you as you were in saying what you did.
Reducing what I say to basically that I’m promoting being with someone that you deem to be ugly, unattracted to and a bad lay, is as crass as when I say that it’s not about being blinded by someone’s intelligence and giving them qualities and characteristics that they don’t have and someone saying ‘Oh so I should be with someone stupid?’ or if I say it’s not all about the money ‘Oh I should be with someone poor then?”
Case in point – https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/the-trouble-with-being-blinded-by-appearance-in-dating-relationships/
Now you may not like what I say or feel that you’re entitled to feel and behave as you do (you are btw), but fact is, if I heard a man speaking about woman in the manner that you did, or a *woman* speaking about another woman in that way, I’d still say the same thing.
“Natalie’s advice – do I really need to be with someone who is not good looking, who is dull and not into sex to have a “real” relationship? Am I supposed to go on the dates with people who I don’t like and hope I will like them later? It doesn’t really work…I would love to change the way I think, but how?” I mean honestly Mima – Out-rageous to put my name to that! And yes, I intended to be blunt *again*.
If you stay with a man you regard as ugly, that you’re not attracted to and yada, yada, yada, that’s all your choice to own. That’s not his fault or the universes, and it’s certainly not mine – own your choices. Nobody is forcing you to be with these men. The very behaviour that Mr Unavailables are slated for, is *exactly* what you’re doing – passing time, getting what you want. If a man described a woman in this way, it would be a very different song being sung. I’m not saying there aren’t plenty of twits out there, but there are plenty that aren’t.
Natalie, I think I understand what you are saying. Me and my “boyfriend” are probably as bad as each other, but I’m the one who’s getting hurt – I’m currently having counselling for depression… I guess I never recovered from my ex cheating on me – and blaming it all on my appearance, my working hours, my family etc… And by the way – the only reason I stayed with him, putting up with all the negative stuff, is because he was a good man and I loved him, even though we were more like housemates then a couple.
I will break up with my friend and probably will stay single… I’m starting to think that relationships is not something I can handle successfully….Even reading my own posts makes me feel embarrassed…
Thanks for your advice anyway!
I have to be honest too, I believe I am having the same problem that Mima is, although I haven’t resigned myself to a life of pain and heartbreak. I have sworn off ACs and have gone NC with all of them (including blocking the idiots on facebook etc.), but it seems to me that my alternative is guys who are just tedious (I started a thread about this in the earlier comments on this post). I mean, ok, I know I don’t have to be with someone who is unattractive to me, but I seem to be having a lot of trouble getting past the stage where the only men I find attractive are unavailable, either because they are ACs, not interested in me, in a relationship with someone else, or for whatever reason. I’ve read “Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl,” I’ve read all the tips for having better self-esteem on this site, I am now very aware of EUMs and ACs and I stay away from them, I tell myself I don’t need an AC to validate me and I now really believe I don’t, but I still seem to have this problem, i.e. the men who want me are just not attractive to me because I find them tedious to be around (and so does mostly everyone else in most cases, although maybe they don’t say so).
I love this site and it has helped me a lot, but I am getting to a point where I feel like I am missing a key piece of the puzzle because even though I am trying to live by the site’s philosophy, I keep being told I have issues and am unavailable myself or am hooked on charm. If that’s true, I don’t know how to fix it. What more can I do, besides stay away from ACs, be my own person, surround myself with great friends, try new things, live the life I want, tell myself I deserve someone great, etc.? What am I missing? Does not wanting the socially off-kilter guys who want me really mean I am “hooked on charm”? I guess I understand where Mima is coming from because the messaging I am getting here is “don’t let your libido guide your decision-making” and “don’t over-emphasize chemistry or a sexual connection,” but if the attraction is not present I just don’t see how a relationship can be possible, and when it is present the person seems always to be unavailable, which I now understand thanks to this site is an insurmountable problem, so I am staying away from those. Anyway, I am confused. Please help.
Jennifer, Mima – I hear you both but the fact is that when push comes to shove you focus on them and I don’t doubt you are both doing *some* work but you have both proven with your comments that of all the reading and stuff you claim to have done, the one thing you haven’t done is addressed your beliefs which impacts your actions, which basically governs what you will and won’t get involved in. Fact is, people who have good self-esteem, even a moderate level don’t believe what you both do and don’t say some of the stuff you do. It’s like doing a few nice things for yourself but ultimately thinking you’re not good enough or there’s no hope for you. Address your beliefs. Use this site ( ( I’ll let you do the searching on this site yourself but a good hint is using the ‘library’ link or the beliefs category),use other sites, buy a book, see a therapist etc. I don’t want to be on a soap box and ultimately I’m not here to convince you – what happens next is down to you.
***I want to add Mima – the first thing you should address is believing that it’s your looks or working hours that drove your ex to cheat. You may think he’s a good guy but if he has an ounce of decency left in him, he’ll stop making you responsible for his mistake and ‘man up’. Tackle your beliefs about cheating, what you can control, honesty, appearance etc. You could’ve been Halle Berry – it wouldn’t have made a difference. Ask her yourself.
I’d like to zero in on what Nat says – we focus on “them” (the men). Men who’ve hurt us, men who bore us, other women’s men who are mystifyingly so much better than ours, or who we wouldn’t touch with a bargepole, men in general, men from Mars. This is a distraction from looking at us. If a man were to come on here (and a few have) saying women only like men who are rich, women like bad boys, women like jerks, we’re pretty quick to point out that he’s generalising and needs to take a good look at himself. Our beliefs are not as obnoxious as theirs but we could still stand to look at ourselves.
Recognising ACs and EUMs is the easy bit. It’s actually quite good fun, like birdwatching – ooh there’s a lesser one, there’s a greater one. Recognising EU traits in yourself is more of a challenge and uncomfortable but that’s where the rewards lie. Otherwise you’ve started the journey but not finishing. You haven’t got to the good bit yet.
It sounds like a depressing thing to hear, but the lightbulb moment was when my counsellor, somewhat exasperated, said “You must have low self esteem to allow men to treat you like this. Why else would you?” Normally, a counsellor wouldn’t just spell it out like that but this was my fourth counsellor in twenty years and I’d told him he was going to have to do more than just listen. “There’s something I’m not getting. You have to tell me because I can’t carry on like this!”
Over and over Nat says … take the focus off him, look at yourself. Over and over I see women miss the point. I missed it for decades, I guess I finally heard it when I was ready.
Mima, Jenny – everything you believed, I believed. It’s like being in a dead end job and complaining about the economy, your unemployability because of your age, sex, race , or saying all the good jobs have gone. At some point you have to take the leap of faith to look for a new one. And if you can’t, what’s stopping you?
There may be a million jobs out there which you don’t want. But you only have to find one.
Grace, as always, I heart you and salute you *throws virtual rose petals in your path just like in Coming To America* The comment is golden but the last line is a corker!
Grace, thanks so much for your very helpful comment, which definitely rang true for me. You are quite right that if a man were to say that there are no attractive available women out there, I would think that was crazy because I know that there are many.
I don’t mean to be a nuisance, but I guess I am just wondering whether you or anybody else has some really specific tips to get started on improving my emotional availability. Every time I think I am making progress in this area, I end up meeting a guy, being attracted to him but realizing that he is unavailable, meeting another guy, thinking he is totally unattractive but realizing he is very available, and then I feel like I’m back to where I started. Are you saying that I just need to keep looking because there will be attractive guys out there who are available? Or is there work still to be done on myself and I just can’t figure out what it is?
I don’t mean to belabour the point or make anyone stand on a soap box because I believe that all of you are right and I really badly want to change. I guess I just need to be hit on the head with some specific suggestions because I really have read a lot on this site and others and have seen a counsellor for years too. I’ve made lists about my beliefs, countered the negative beliefs with positive thinking, told myself that my parents are not the be all and end all of romantic relationships, that I am loveable and worthwhile, etc. All of this has helped to some extent (although the counsellor definitely should have helped more considering what she cost me) but, like you said happened to you too Grace, I feel like there is something I’m still not getting and am wondering whether you can spell out some tips that got you started and worked for you. I really have searched this site and tried many things – I hope I’m not going crazy!
@ Grace
I love this comment and it definitely struck a chord with me: “Recognising ACs and EUMs is the easy bit. It’s actually quite good fun, like birdwatching – ooh there’s a lesser one, there’s a greater one. Recognising EU traits in yourself is more of a challenge and uncomfortable but that’s where the rewards lie.”
— I needed to hear that so much! I too have been able to EUM/AC watch and have had great fun pointing out the men in my life that fit the criteria. I understood in passing, that yes, I must be EU as well but never shone the light upon myself to point out my own traits that exhibited this problem.
Your words hit me like lightning and now I have to really sit down and see how I am EU and what choices I have made and how I have treated men in that regard instead of only seeing how EUM have treated me.
One thing that comes to mind is that I will be “talking” to a guy, getting to know him and things seem to be slow and ambiguous and then I get annoyed wondering whether or not he really likes me or better yet wants to be serious. I will spend all this time worrying about it and wondering why he’s dragging his foot but at the very same time, I’m thinking “I don’t really want to be his gf. Do I? I don’t know. What will I do if it came down to that?”. How crazy!!! I just thought of this lol. I will be so concerned about whether or not this man wants to date me seriously and am quick to call him an EUM if he seems not to know, yet I myself don’t know if I want to commit to him and am ambivalent about the whole thing, yet somehow need him to “make a decision”. That is very EU and something I hate in men but apparently I do as well. I hate when a man seems to want my love and devotion but is iffy about being able to give it to me yet I DO IT TOO! I want a man to commit to me and show devotion to me, even when I am not sure I want to commit to him…smh. I need to really think this through and work it out versus focusing on these men.
Jennifer
I think keep looking and try different things. Tackle your negative beliefs, do things you enjoy, get out and about more, even when you don’t feel like it, accept most if not all invitations. When you are happy and have quite a full life, it’s not such a blow when a date doesn’t work out or if you keep bumping into unsuitable men.
It IS rare to meet a good, available man that you find attractive and who likes you too but, like I said, you only need to meet one. When you are genuinely ready, he will come along. It would be a waste if you met him too early.
Hi Mima,
You’re basically saying that all the men in the world who are genuinely good people are ugly, boring and bad in bed. I think you know that that’s not true! The two are not mutually exclusive. Look at Johnny Depp: a gorgeous, talented, family man, who has been with the same woman for years!
If you are willing to ignore the fact that a guy is flakey, disrespectful and lazy because he is ‘hot’ and good in bed then i think you’re going to find yourself constantly let down and in a ‘relationship’ that doesn’t fulfil you. If you love yourself and are willing to wait for a man who ticks all the boxes, who is good to you as well as flicking your switch physically then all the better for you. Like Nat says – the choice is yours.
Mima,
I know what you’re talking about. I’ve been there before, and I also added some comments to Jennifer’s thread, where I share my opinions and experiences. Please check the previous comments! 😉 In a nutshell, I REALLY don’t think you should be with someone you don’t fancy, whom you’re not physically attracted too and/or whose personality and company you don’t like. BUT, when you find that someone that you fancy, DO make sure that things like care, honesty, trust and respect are not missing. When I met my ex, he seemed to be the perfect man for me (gorgeous, funny, intelligent, educated, from a good family, unattached, we have lots of stuff in common, etc.). BUT the moral qualities I mentioned before proved to be missing. Yes, I know it’s not easy to find someone who makes you “tick” on all levels, and that men who are both DECENT and COMPATIBLE TO YOU don’t grow on trees, but when you find one…just treasure them! <3 I think I might have found someone like that now...and I was telling someone I'd rather be happy with this guy for a week (if it's for longer - so be it! 😛 ) rather than have another year of anxiety with my ex. I wish you good luck! 😉
@ Natalie: Happy belated birthday, and keep on being the voice of reason! 😉
Thanks, Natalie, for this post. As a guy who too often goes out of his way to please unavailable women, to be their shoulder to cry on and sometime hookup buddy, this really struck a nerve with me. Lately I’ve been doing much better for myself, so this post is really affirming. Keep up the great work!
Struggling. I’m so struggling, because I AM that unavailable woman. Thanks Christian and Natalie!!!
I’m currently trying to get over and move on from an EUM using your book but I’m still in some sort of withdrawal phase of thinking about him, facebook stalking him (yes, I KNOW I should just delete him) and still fantasising and hoping things will work. The blog is such a huge help for me right now, I’m actually going to print it off and read it as a reality check whenever my thoughts turn to him. Thank you, Natalie!
I so needed to read this today. And i’ll probably need to read it over, and over, and over. I am so tired of disappointing myself. It is indeed insanity to keep going through the same thing, but expecting not to get disappointed this time.
It might feel good for a week, or two weeks, even three. But one thing is for absolute certain. He is indeed going to disappoint me again. He is going to ignore me and run off with another woman to cool down from his feelings for me.
I want this to be the last time I allow this. I don’t want to allow it again. I am so tired of the hurt and disappointment. – I want to love myself and find a mutually fulfilling realtionship full of real love.
Thank you for writing this. I am going to refer to it every time I have a weak moment…….