Any toxic relationship I’ve been involved in has always kept going because of my essentially cherry-picking what I wanted to remember about the person and the relationship, romantic or otherwise. While I spent most of my life feeling wounded by my father’s absence and the sporadic periods or even moments spent with him, what I mostly remembered was how I felt around him and the happy times. Of course, there were some, but I’d admittedly romanticised the hell out of them. I’d selectively remember spending visitations with him and how thrilled I always was to see him. However, I’d conveniently forget how we used to sit on the side of a cricket pitch or in some pub. I’d forget how I’d have to pretend that I didn’t want to spend real quality time with him. I wanted to be involved instead of being an observer or accessory.
Suddenly my resentment, hurt, frustration and all the things I’d identified as being unhealthy or unsuited to me were forgotten. Instead, I’d press the Reset Button. I’d return to the time before they first started showing signs of who they were and what was to come.
Each time one particular ex I dated on and off for four years and saw a handful of times a year phoned (this started around 1996/1997, so it was all landlines and radio silence in between), I only remembered possibilities. I focused on how I wanted to feel and what I perceived as his ‘good points’: tall, made me laugh, good-looking, clever, smelled of Polo Sport, good kisser. It clearly didn’t take much!
Here’s what I didn’t remember: he vanished after each date despite making out that we were imminently seeing each other again. He was also ridiculously ambiguous, sometimes pretentious, talked a lot and mostly about himself, and did a couple of really disingenuous things that communicated that I shouldn’t confide in him.
I also returned to a highly toxic relationship that left me anxious, unable to sleep, and questioning everything about me right down to my race. I’ve given out more chances to other exes because I forgot the downside of being with and around them.
This is ultimately where anyone who has ever tried to remain or get back together with somebody for the ‘good points’ ends up feeling the pain. They remain or go back because they’re blinded to the whole package because of wanting to reap the benefits of those points. These represent potential, and seeing the whole person represents disappointment. They wish they could extract these points and multiply them into being full time. In reality, the relationship disappointments happen at an increasing, real-time, full package cost that isn’t worth it.
Ever had a friend who gives your social life a boost or who appears to be supportive when you share your problems with them, only to find they put you down or do other shitty things to you? That right there is the problem with only seeing people in parts or points.
You might remind yourself about how they’re fun company, the people they introduce you to, or how you can talk to them about your family or whatever. Still, what price are you willing to pay? If you confide in someone who appears empathetic and supportive but then they use what you share or their perception of you to their advantage or to clobber you, that’s not friendship! You’re inadvertently giving this drainer the blueprints to eff you over!
Equally, it’s all very well remembering that you have someone around, you’re not single, when it’s on it’s so on, and they take you places, talk about plans, appear very remorseful and swear up and down that they’re never going to be or do whatever code red malarkey they did the last time and the time before, but that is a problem if when it’s off, it’s so very off that it’s dangerous to your well-being. You’re essentially destroying your sense of self.
That he could be very charming, sweet, and apologetic and it felt like the time of her life when he wasn’t gaslighting, name-calling, cheating, and giving her a few slaps, kept her hopes alive that one day he’d feel motivated to cease what he was doing.
Here’s the thing though: When you’re in a healthy relationship, your partner being sweet, kind, caring, taking you places, apologising when they’ve erred and basically being in your life is a good thing. However, when a person takes advantage of or even abuses you, ‘sweetness’, ‘remorse‘, and time spent with you come from a different place. These also have a very high price. Of course, her now-ex is great at apologies, faux remorse, and wooing her back in with good times! How else is he going to sell the relationship to her?
Instead, they’ll use Future Faking, Fast–Forwarding, and flattery and showboating in the initial stages of dating to sell themselves. Really, it’s like getting a low introductory offer with killer interest rates.
People come as full packages.
When we focus on the attractive and, yes, even imagined parts, we forget that everything else comes part and parcel with that person. They can’t dispose of their past, fears, motivations, beliefs, habits and whatever else just to give us the selected highlights. No matter how much a person tries to disguise who they are, who they truly are is self-evident as they unfold. All we need is to be awake and in our own space where we can differentiate between us and them instead of owning their feelings and behaviour.
If we take what we perceive as the ‘good’ and downgrade or even attempt to delete the relevance of the less palatable parts, we’re still getting the rest. All we’re doing is the equivalent of refusing the delivery of a parcel each time it shows up in our doorway. These parcels from the person and the relationship unfolding just pile up around your home until they’re too big to ignore. No matter how much we attempt to ignore this stuff, it becomes the key issue and decider of the relationship.
Once we learn to accept people for who they are instead of trying to segment them into the picture we’ve painted in our minds, we consciously choose whether we are prepared to live with the consequences of what certain characteristics and behaviour bring into a relationship. We get very real about what is wonderful and not so wonderful. We get real about what matters and we also get real about who we are when we’re around that person.
Sometimes we are prepared to hang around because we tell ourselves that some crumbs are better than no crumbs. Maybe we believe we can live with the pain to get the highs. It’s vital to remember, though, that pain isn’t love; it’s pain. If we can’t love a person for who they are, all we’re really doing is loving them for who they’re not, which means we’re not really loving them at all.
Your thoughts?
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Great summary of the illusions that we fall prey to in relationships, N.
That wolf is kind of freaking me out, though. 🙂
Again, Natalie writes something perfect for my personal situation, as I try to end a really complicated relationship – again (and this time it’s working).
What she is really writing about it seems to me is our responsibility to not only see our lover, but also the situation in its entirety.
And this includes the truth of how they see us. One of the biggest challenges when you in the middle of a toxic thing is the way you feel like you are constantly reeling from one disappointment, one let-down to the next.
Naturally we tend to focus on them too much – and our hurt. But as I’ve learned, much to my gratitude from this site and my own work, is that we really need to take a step back and think about how their behaviour reflects their attidudes to us and women more generally.
Part of the reason why we find it hard to look at that is because we have internalised the shame, or already felt it because of our previous suffering. We feel that it is valid, or something.
Of course it’s not – it’s their rubbish, leave it with them. But if we keep focussing on our perspective, or own reaction and our (usually unmet)needs we avoid seeing the truth, both the person and the situation as it really is.
PS This is my first comment, as a reader for more than three years. Really, major, major gratitude to Natalie for her work on this site … she is extraordinary in her non-judgmental insight into the way we get hooked on men (usually, though there must be some women like this too)who are at best half-hearted, or abusive. Sincere thank you.
Help me! I need some advice please. After finally breaking it off with my third ass-clown, and then spending a year just working on myself and figuring out who I am, I am starting to date again. I am currently starting to date a man who is nice, kind, funny, works hard, treats me well, makes me laugh, etc. But there are two things that bug me about him. One is, he doesn’t really call or text me as much as I would like. Once a day, and that’s it. I would love to get friendly little hellos throughout the day. He is a construction worker, and older (53 like me), and says he is just “not into texting.” The other thing is, he doesn’t seem to like sleeping in the same bed as me. We jump into bed in the evening and have our fun, then he goes and sleeps on the couch for the rest of the night. This has happened four times. He says he has been sleeping alone for a couple of years since his marriage ended and just can’t sleep well next to another person any more. Both of these things bother me. I have talked to him a couple of times and clearly expressed how I feel and what I need from him. He will try for a couple of days, but seems unable to do these two things for me. They aren’t deal breakers, but they bother me. Do I just “accept him as he is” (his words), do I keep telling him it bugs me (which doesn’t seem to be helping, or do I just blow it off as no big deal (my girlfriend’s advice). After dealing with three jerks in a row, in relationships where I ignored my own needs and feelings to the point of self-destruction, I am now having a hard time figuring out what is legitimate, expressing my feelings, or honoring his “right” to be who he is. I just don’t know how to deal with this. Would appreciate advice from you wonderful ladies 🙂
Oregon Girl,
I am not sure why you want him to text you more, once a day sounds fine to me, he is letting you know he is thinking about you…he is busy with work and it I would say on a construction site that it would be hard and against Health and Safety to constantly text, I am wondering if you are being a little bit hard on him about this. The bed situation, well, I have the same problem he has, after sleeping by myself for so many years I find it hard to have someone in bed with me, I can’t sleep at all, every movement and sound they make wakes me up…I think I would give him a little bit of time to get used to it, but he has to try with this and sleeping on the couch isn’t going to cut it.
Oregon Girl, I agree with what Sandy said. Working at a construction site limits one’s availability for texting or e-mailing. I have a personal experience with this and at first I used to get upset but then was fine with one message a day or sometimes just none, but he would call by the end of each day.
Sleeping – I have the same problem. I got divorced several years ago and am used to sleeping alone. So, when I was in my last relationship, although I could fall asleep, I would wake up around 4 a.m. and no way I could go back to sleep. I would transfer to the couch eventually. One thing might be good to try to do, once you get closer, is to travel somewhere together for 4-5 days. That way, in a hotel, he will just have to sleep through the night with you. I got used to sleeping with my ex when traveling on the 3rd night and by the 4th and 5th I was comfortable finally. It takes a week or so, and he can get used to it. But that just takes living with each other. So because I never lived with my ex, I never got used to sleeping with him. It can be overcome, no worries.
I really think you have nothing to worry about! Just keep dating and discovering and letting him open up slowly.
Hi Oregon! What Sandy Said. If I got involved with someone who insisted I contact them multiple times per day, that would send up all kinds of “too needy” “too high maintenance” red flags, but that’s just me. About the bed thing, I also find it difficult to sleep when sharing a bed with someone else, as I am a light sleeper but would want the intimacy enough to be willing to work on it. I say this as a fellow “assclown magnet” who has neglected my own needs to the point of self-destruction and is in the process of getting out of a bad marriage and trying to redeem what is left of my life.
Back to the texting…does he have a text-friendly “smart phone” or one of those clunky old-school things on which sending a one-sentence text is like performing a root canal? Also, you mentioned your age. I’m about to turn 48 and my eyesight is finally starting to go, so I am imagining him out on a project site having to change into reading glasses to read a text and see what letters are on the phone keys to respond to it (= “pain in the ass!”). Very best wishes with the relationship, as he sounds like a good find!
Dear Sandy, Brenda, Sofia,
Thank you ladies for your wonderful advice. I think you are right. He is a very sweet, kind man and I am crazy about him. I will just try to relax and enjoy him and let things unfold naturally. I appreciate your insight because since I haven’t dated for a long time with a “normal” man I just don’t know what “normal” is any more! You ladies rock! Hugs!!!
Hi Oregon Girl,
I hope you’re well. I just saw this question and wanted to weigh in: what I’ve learned about caring for myself is that if something bothers me, I must do something. And even though a man may be ‘nice’ and ‘sweet’ – what I need, matters.
It doesn’t matter what is ‘normal.’ What matters is how YOU feel about his behavior. There are LOTS of men out there, and good ones, too. If you believe they are scarce, or act our of fear – or stay with someone who doesn’t give you what you need – then you’ll settle for much less than you deserve.
Some other woman may not be bothered by his infrequent contact. Others may not care that he won’t snuggle you after sex. But both of those things would bother me – not because I’m “needy” but because the relationship I want and DESERVE will be with a man who gets it, who loves to call/text and snuggle me.
The minute a woman asks if her desires are ‘normal’ is the minute she minimizes HERSELF and her own needs. She is acting in fear and scarcity. She will put up with less than what she needs, in exchange for crumbs. And she’ll stay in a relationship long after its sell by date.
Just my $.02.
They can’t dispose of their past, their fears, motivations, beliefs, habits and whatever else, just to give us the selected highlights. No matter how much a person tries to disguise who they are, who they truly are is self-evident as they unfold.
And there’s the key to it all.Unfolding.
And unfolding takes TIME. And this is where we so often mess up in the dating world – we rush-rush-rush, because we want to get laid while the sexy thrill is there, or we want instant-relationship-just-add-water.
If we would wait, we would learn and learn and learn. There was a good comment on the last post from ChiTownKitty who said that a fabulous looking guy turned up at work, but over time she realised that he wasn’t actually right for her at all.
Yep… same thing happened to me before. I met a guy in my building who worked for a different company. He did all the right things for a few weeks and we went on 2 dates. I pushed for light things like afternoon dates or lunch as I wanted to get to know him without pressure of sex and other expectations of evening dates.
Well… third date he asked me out the next evening (Friday) and I had plans. He then said Saturday night. I already had friends with plans I told him I wanted to keep. So I suggested Saturday or Sunday afternoon. He backed out saying he would call me and then went radio silent.
I learned exactly what I needed to about this guy… he was just trying to get laid, didn’t have the balls to tell me he decided then and there we wouldn’t go out again.
I forgot to mention almost a week later I got a text crumb from the guy.
Something happened, it took up his time, I don’t deserve it, sorry, blah blah.
I’ve basically decided I can’t do modern dating anymore. By the second date, guys are expecting way too much. (A few wait until the third.) They give me this seriously depressed look when, after dinner, I tell them I’m going home. I smile, we had a good time, etc. But it ends there because they don’t want to put any time in to get to know you. I don’t expect someone to keep paying my way, I could buy them dinner, we could go to the park, whatever. But they’re not interested in that. Hoping to meet someone organically somewhere, but as you get older, if there is no one at work, then it’s more difficult. I’ve joined a couple of things so we’ll see, but honestly, if I am single that’s fine because I only have one life and I plan to enjoy it.
Yes! Dating without knowing someone first is so hard, and last year, I met someone through work. We formed a friendship and were friends for a year. Then we started dating. It was amazing until she got a job 7 hours away from where I live, but very close to where her ex lives. She moved. Two weeks later, I visited. She broke up with me after I returned home.
My therapist said that he could pretty much tell me that the ex definitely has something to do with it. And maybe that is true. But now I have lost a great friend.
The only thing I am not sure of is if she was future faking me or not. We were planning a trip overseas for next summer. We had Christmas plans.
I’ve had to learn to believe who people are in full and accept that it is ok for me to do that because it is my life and there are consequences (good or bad) for my choices related to who I let in it. Its funny because as I’ve become more self aware I realized I often overlooked some problematic things w some people because I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt…and get this…they didn’t even ask for it. Lol. I was just so programmed to seeing what I wanted to see. Its kind of funny now because it doesn’t even make sense, its crazy. I lived 30+ years of my life like that. I’m glad we have the opportunity to evolve as people. It feels better to just believe who people show you they are and to trust yourself that its ok to make these choices about who is right for your own life w out fear of the “j” word…judgemental (from yourself or others). This wolf cartoon is funny because really it is as simply true as it says. I believe my ex thought I was as simple as that til I was gone. 🙂
This article is so spot on. I am now three weeks with no contact on my part. He recently sent me a message saying that he would like to hear about a recent trip I went on. Since when does he really care to hear about me??
I am doing really well…working on myself and I difference about his life, which is huge for me. But I still have moments of doubt when I think about his “good” side. When I have those moments, I grab my journal and wrote something about his horrible behavior and my humiliations.
It’s a slow process and he still takes too much of my thought process…but it is true that I really don’t love the total package.
I am working on indifference. He can become President or end up in the slums…it really doesn’t matter. I matter…and I tell myself this every single day!
Sorry about the grammar…I “write” in my journal. And “working on myself and my indifference about his life…” Was trying to write using my phone and didn’t review before I sent. ;-))
This is EXACTLY my life right now and it is tearing me up inside!!! You are amazing and I feel like you took the words right out of my head! It is hard and sad and I do not know how to leave because I still end up going back!
I don’t like the way BR forces me to look at reality sometimes. I have liked people for their “good” qualities my whole dating life. My mother always accused me of trying to “build” a man – I wanted traits A and B from Man1, traits C and D from Man2, and traits E and F from Man3. I’ve always thought I wanted three men in my life precisely for that reason. My view was that you can never get all you want from one person, so don’t try.
But BR has me thinking that I have been “settling” my whole dating life.
The single EUM I was on and off with for 18 years…every time I’d resume seeing him it was because my life was so empty and he was presentable, but after 5 minutes in his company I’d remember how mentally incompatible we were…yet I kept going back to that well. And when his PA insults would start, I’d remember why I walked away. Why did I keep forgetting that?
I have been so lonely recently that having ACMM over for company was being considered. ACMM has been my only social outlet for four years. But I look at the fact that I have not felt like crying since we stopped getting together..and I don’t have that forlorn feeling now that he is not stepping in and out of my life…and the sex was marginal and I really crave some mutual good lovin…and I ask myself why do I think the times with him are so good? Because of a few laughs over the same old stories? Because I feel special when he shares a childhood memory? It is because I am SO LONELY and I am accustomed to making crumbs seem like a loaf. But in true AC form, ACMM sends a phone text that not so subtly requests sex, and I ask myself why do I keep forgetting that this man does not care about me? (Allison, should you read this, I have not figured out how to block “no caller id” numbers on my phone.)
I’ve talked myself out of going to the local pub these last four weekends because…I don’t like anything about it. I don’t want to sit at a bar alone. I think I’d feel more lonely after spending time at a pub, having the odd conversation with a stranger, possibly being hit on by men shopping for immediate gratification…no…not for me. I remember that ACMM always seemed good to me after spending time at a pub. My job offers no social outlets…..I do not work with eligible men. So, although I am VERY ready for a love connection, I see no avenue for finding it at the moment
Aw, Elgie R, you are a fine person. All you need is a rethink of what constitutes ‘social life’. Not everything has to involve going to the pub and sitting there like an uncovered leg of lamb.
Are there any coffee shops near you, where you could go and spend the evening reading a good book, or playing on your tablet?
What about going to the movies with friends, instead of alone?
If you feel you don’t have any friends, then go and get some! What about MeetUp.com in your area – are there any interest groups that really interest you? (Hint – avoid anything with the word ‘singles’ in the title, because that will just put the pressure on you). Sometimes they have movie-going groups so that people don’t have to be alone when they go out.
You are lonely, that’s all. That’s not a crime, but there’s quite a few things that we as individuals can do about it. (And almost all of them DON’T involve finding a sexual partner/crush ASAP, because that’s a sure path to being burned, used and even lonelier).
What about where you live – do you live alone? Might be time to get a pet, if you can. This makes a huge difference.
If you own your home, start redecorating. This is also a huge help to give you a fresh outlook on life.
Don’t be lonely. You don’t have to be!
Elgie,
Have you tried Meet Up to meet new people? You are so articulate, and I’m certain have many interests. Just a thought.
Unfortunately, you can’t block numbers with “no caller Id.” I think your only solution is to change the number, or ignore.
Dear Ladies
I am a 50+ year male and I am or were in the same situation where I return to a toxic relationship because of some crumbs.
I want the whole bakery so I need to stay away. Wish me luck and good luck to all of you. We all need to be valued and treasured.
Wikus — good for you! You’ll starve with crumbs. And don’t let someone become your priority if they treat you only as their option. (I know I’ve said that before, but it’s become sort of a mantra for me!)
Hmm trying not to do the cherry picking thing but it’s hard when you want something to work 🙁
I’ve been dating some one last few weeks, he’s super kind, attentive, and generous, and I find him attractive. Not pushing me into bed. Also he is truly single with no exes, FWBs, wives or GFs hidden in the bushes. But.. so very old fashioned and sometimes touchy. He’s 6 years older than me but sometimes feels like he is much older, and I’m really wondering how I’m going to feel with this going forward. And I have to shake myself out of the “last chance saloon” mentality, bc in many ways he treats me better than anyone eve has. Phones, texts, takes me out, opens doors etc etc. but.. I am getting fond of him but sometimes I find him a teeny tiny bit dull, what is the matter with me:-(
Mymble,
The problem is if your use to dating EU there is so much drama that that’s what you get use to. It can seem weird being in a normal relationship. Give the relationship a chance and see how you feel and if you truly feel as if you are not compatible with this person this do what’s best for you.
Agree!
Hi Mymble,
if the opinion of a total stranger like me is of any interest to you, I would tell you that there is no reason on earth why you should keep going out with somebody you don’t like. There is no obligation to be or go out with somebody if you don’t feel like it with that particular person. It would be nice if it was pleasure, not work.
All the best,
V.
Nothing wrong with you Mymble! I think we used to “drama” that’s why you probably find him a bit dull;( Please keep us posted;)
wow this post struck a chord with me it took me way back to someone who was just selling me beach sand
I went on a dating hiatus recently after joining a few “reputable online GLBT dating sites” that offered a level of legitimacy and promises that all members were carefully screened in order to weed out scam artists and gold diggers.
Well, bullshit.
Besides meeting a lot of American alcoholics and women who looked like John Belushi, apparently half of the Russian population are beautiful, single gay women who fall in love with me at first emoticon. They also pretend to be Americans with foreign mothers to disguise their weird grammar and inability to relate to characters such as Bart Simpson or Tracey Ullman.
Soon I was able to spot them before they spotted me, and after toying with a few just long enough to demonstrate karma, American-style, I got bored and told the site to cancel my subscription, keep the money and do a better job of weeding out the frauds.
After that, I decided to forget about romance a while and revive my platonic social network.
Wow, I’m having so much fun now, with a great variety of old and new friends of both genders, straight, gay, older, younger- almost everyone but people who collect fan photos of a certain former U.S. president, best known for being the stupidest man in the history of the world.
Anyway,…
I’ve also joined new FB forums, tried new restaurants, music venues, and basically I’ve revved up everything but my new and improved, boundary protected, yet to be tested sex & love department.
I still miss the physical comfort and romance that comes with intimate love, but having a busier social life makes me almost as happy, and it sure beats sitting by the phone, waiting for Ms. Not Quite Right to call or text.
Karen, thank you for such a good LOL moment!
Once again, soooo timely. Last night, Mr. Not quite a relationship and I agreed to split it off. It was, for a year, more like a close friendship and I felt much more like legal counsel/psychologist/therapist/mommy and a lover. There never had been any passion, even marginal physical affection and the problem, physically, was not due to shortcomings on my end. I will fully admit, I have not been emotionally available during the time of my dads collapse/passing but I am not sure how many would be. He accused me of “doing too much”, yet he’s never had a job of work, always self employed, living off an inheritance. I strongly suspect that I wouldve wound up supporting him within a coupla years if we’d kept on. Although I have much more to do with the farm, my much larger home that I heat with wood, I get it done and then some. What attracted me to him? Tall, thin, physically healthy (men here are none of those things), not hiding secret girlfriends, wives, whatevers, and super kind to my dogs. Peopke are a whole package, not just the physical aspects but time management, skills or lack thereof, belief systems, and preferred lifestyle. Only stayed in his home about four times as its too, small, messy, and noisy (in the city) and I couldn’t sleep at all. Feel somewhat sad but also relieved.
Noquay,
I have seen you on BR a bit over the last 10 months I have been on here. You strike me as so intelligent, articulate, and down-to-earth.
Don’t you think that what you are feeling is just normal? You are sad, but relieved – and how I know that feeling! I think it takes time to process the end of a relationship. And so maybe you should just allow yourself that time.
I just ended a 30+ year marriage. I was stalling on the divorce because of health insurance issues. But last month, I up and did it, and now am completely, legally and wonderfully relieved!
And FREE!
I kept cherry-picking. For years. I loved him for who he “was not”. I would not allow myself the luxury of letting go, but I have, and it is so wonderful. He is involved and possibly engaged already, and at first I was hurt. Why her, not me? But through processing, I have come to find that it doesn’t hurt at all, and I feel like an albatross has lifted off my shoulders. So many of the things you said applied: no passion, different belief systems, and to boot-he is a major alcoholic. That is not my problem anymore. I am getting better and healthier all the time.
I deleted him from my life, we are not friends, and except for contact thru emails about our kids, he is my past. So be it.
I agree that people are a whole package, and if that package gets unwrapped to reveal crap inside, then vloody throw the package away. I have started cutting ties even with family members that have emotional issues and try to make me feel bad about myself. For instance, my dad. I love him, but he can be very cold and short-patient. I just end the conversation with him when he starts barking at me. Then I just go do something nice for myself. I deserve it after 50+ years of being a people pleaser.
You will be fine. You seem strong and emotionally available to me-simply by recognizing that at times you weren’t EA!!
Good luck, and remember that you never know what tomorrow will bring. {Hug}
No more
Yep, we know we’ve done the right thing when we feel immediate RELIEF. I think my sadness comes for a strong sense of having no hope of finding anyone anymore and also because the past few years have been a litany of loss after loss. I did it right this time in a way, this dude lives 100 miles away and I need never see him again. No bumping into him at the races, the grocery, the coffeehouse (my favorite hangout, which he hated), or even worse, at work.
Sometimes you have done the right thing but you don’t feel relieved. Had an EUM in my life for a little over a year and finally kicked him to the curb back in February. I had really enjoyed his company and didn’t feel I’d gotten enough of it but I couldn’t take the emotional distance anymore. Oh but he sure wanted the playtime when I was visiting… yeah, no, pass. Just wanted to throw this in here in case someone comes along and thinks, “No, wait, I don’t feel relief… OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE?” Not to worry! You are probably still on the right path!
Noquay ((hugs)) I’m glad to know that at least you had something like close friendship while you deal with your father’s passing. Also glad to think of you actively giving someone a shot. Even if this didn’t work out, the interaction sounds miles better than your workplace douchebag – you’re trying, you’re LIVING.
Mags
I will be forever grateful for this dude for getting me to the airport in time (an aggressive city driver) so I could see dad through his passing. However, he rarely called during the process and when informed of my dads death, was hours late in getting back to me and made the convo all about him. People are indeed the whole package. I can also see great fault in myself in that trying to find a way to move on from at work AC and hotrunnerdudewithhiddengirlfriend, I kept him around about I year too long. Should’ve broken it off ASAP when I discovered the true extent of his problems but he really needed someone to listen and be there for him. My own damned fault, eh?
Noquay, mags – we keep ourselves in this cycle – even when we have the great strength to leave – due to the negative thinking we drag ourselves through AFTERWARDS. Preconditioning us to the ‘I *ucked up again’ feeling, over and over and over again. We are already working from the – ‘I am a loser’ – position before even meeting someone.
Rather than – !!!Hot Damn I got away from that one!!!! – how clever, aren’t I a smooth, sleek, beautiful love with a *colostomy bag* (**insert which ever personal thing you feel uncomfortable about) that deserves some real love!!!
Grieving now means to me a really, really busy time – working out who I am for real – what I like, love, hate – doing all those things I really, really wanted to do all my life but haven’t done quite yet and generally looking after myself really well, doing the things that makes me feel LOVED ALREADY — without a relationship.
Go out and enjoy yourself people – you earned it. Here is some news – being on your own is actually quite good! And that may be the real problem here. If you still have the ‘I’m a loser’ mantra, you won’t like the luxury chocolate, after the healthy meal, before an early night or what ever little things and big thing it is YOU love to do for yourself. You won’t like treating yourself.
Basically Nat is saying – If it doesn’t feel good get up and do something and don’t stop till it does -please.
Oona
Even with this dude peripherally in my life, I was still totally alone for much of the time. I completely feel relieved yet do chastise myself for not ending things about a year ago. I don’t think I am a loser which is why I do keep high standards as to selecting men and refuse to settle for down and outers. People do unfold with time and this guy unfolded in a bad way. I do blame myself for kinda using him as a dinner/hiking companion when perhaps I should’ve cut him loose, stopped eating out, and just go into the woods alone which is my norm. I am not grieving him at all, more relieved that I do not have to put in the extra work to please his privileged/city sensibilities and my power tools are breathing a collective sigh of relief at his a sense. I have all sorts of feelers out into the universe as to what to do next.
Noquay. great.
My loser feeling IS the ‘i could have, should have, would have’s’ blame or guilt feeling.
My grief was for myself and for who i thought i was going to be/life changing things i thought i would be doing – that in reality I was not going to be doing, not really grief for the other person in the relationship, even though it took his image sometimes.
Oona
That’s a whole different ball game. What is it you need to do in order to be the person you want to be?
The last three dudes I was actually attracted to: the AC, hotrunnerdude, this guy (for maybe a coupla months out of 1.5 years), I damned myself for my ugly Indian nose, my heavy legs, everything, because I am obviously terribly ugly, right? Nope, in retrospect, I was doing everything right; looking good, being positive, articulate, having a life of my own. The thing is, I was operating off of incomplete information. Until someone unfolds, which takes time, or the hidden gf shows up, you are stuck with what someone appears to be and you act accordingly. It’s really hard sometimes but first we have to be in the life we want before letting someone else in. We also need to understand that some folks will resent us because we DO have our act together and it shows them that they do not.
Totally – validate yourself. That’s why repeatedly bashing yourself after the event doesn’t fully help because you can’t validate yourself when you are beating yourself up. Yes recognise something you may need to do to protect yourself in the future but do not beat yourself up.
Just found out something great today – the ‘gentleman’ that put me in hospital, then ran a nasty and thorough 3 year smear campaign in the small remote community I live in (because I presume he didn’t want to face up to what he had done to me?) – HE HAS LEFT THE AREA!!! No idea why – –but for some reason I felt so angry at him!??? Not relief as I would have thought? – so I drove to the top of the hill behind my home at sunset and shouted and screamed and shouted at him till I got it all out – probably looked like a complete and utter lunatic – but the irony was I was screaming at him for leaving me in this crap place — while looking at the most devastatingly BEAUTIFUL view of countryside I know and for once the irony was not lost on me.
I didn’t think I believed in happy endings and I’m still not sure it is but he can’t spread more of his rubbish or pain near me without living here. In the old days, if I went into the wrong place or bumped into the wrong person I would get a ‘surprise’ threatening visit in my street which is 2 miles from the nearest village – hardly an ‘I was just in the area’ visit.
It’s not them that needs to unfold – its you and me – when we have unfolded for ourselves – those hidden girlfriends reads as this person is either too attentive or not enough – we are super sensitive to our needs – and then kick THEIR *sses – out the door (or county) – not our own.
There were so many times I was going to run from my dream home (which I’ve done so many times before) – I can’t believe its over – its been four years of full on drama/hell from men as well as women.
Right on! This was so timely! I had an ex who I just adored and would spend time with me, but only on his schedule. I ended up moving across the country to prove to him that I needed commitment and didn’t need him, but of course, we kept sexting and in the end he called it off and hurt me to no end. But now I know he NEVER cared about ME; only about himself, and as much pain as that causes, at least now I know the truth. If I hadn’t moved, it would have taken longer to find this out.
When I think of this post, I think this is the reason why many of us have a hard time leaving the bad relationships because we focus on the “fake good sides”. This is what kept me hooked along with some stuff I made up along the way. See the AC/EUM appeared nice and charming, but once he unfolded the real him came out. Now once I recognized and recognized this I was able to let go of that relationship.
The thing is when you meet the right person, you won’t have this feeling because the good parts outweigh the bad parts and as a whole the good parts are the ones they shows consistently.
I’m thinking that only a small percent of women are in Good Relationships, and that due to the times, most men are Emotionally Unavailable.
It takes a brave women to walk away as a problem person unfolds. Brave to live a life as a single woman, without the company or help from a man.
LilDebby,
I agree with most of your comment but why “due to the times”?
Crystal and LilDebbie
I think, lil Debbie, what you are referring to affects both men and women, making both EU. At the risk of getting slammed, which happened on another blog for saying society sucks, I think yep, a lot of it does. So many are sooo addicted to Faceplant, Tweeter, Hookedin,and their “imaginary friends”, that they rarely have real folk they can turn to. Most of my generation (50’s) and younger never had healthy rships modelled for us by our parents. Those younger than I get most of their ideas about “what it should be” from mass media and thus have incredibly unrealistic expectations. A lot of us were/are disconnected from neighborhood/community. On line dating, to quote Nat, has a candy store/shopping aisle mentality and is sadly now a venue where lying is accepted and expected. As older chix, we are told to be totally self sufficient on one hand, yet slammed for being strong and independent, and for wanting someone equally so, especially now post recession where so many same aged dudes have lost their shirts. Younger generations of women will face this even more as young men no longer feel the need for an education. Most folk, male and female, simply don’t want to do the hard work needed to maintain a healthy rship, which includes bad times as well. We hook up then break up again and again and wonder why we are emotionally exhausted. As a society, we are indeed in deep doo doo.
I have to agree with Noquay. People these days and society judge you by whether or not you are in a relationship. When I was single in my 30s I had a group of friends and we made the effort to keep in touch and meet up. This was in the days before the internet, smart mobiles and texts as means of communication became the norm. We just enjoyed meeting up, having laughs, company and living life. Now so many people spend their time with what I’d term anti-social means of communication they lose the ability to interact and the norm is our throw away society. In days gone past it was so hard to meet someone you had better selection criteria, didn’t date if you didn’t think it was going anywhere (well I didn’t) and if you did have a relationship put more work into it. In the 4 years I have been single I have met many men in various social settings and in life. I haven’t had a relationship for the simple reason that too many men are broken by their past relationships and are bad news. A lot of men older than me just want a nurse maid or a replacement for what they have lost. I know that for some of them it could be any woman as they have such poor selection criteria and can’t figure out why they have a poor track record! I want a man to look at me and go yeees I really want to know her better because of x,y,z and she stands out from the crowd. Until then I am single and happy with it. Maybe I’ve got to an age where I can’t be bothered with all the games that modern dating involves (50+). If I am working I don’t have the time or inclination for a relationship and money is tight so I have other priorities in that area of my life. I don’t go out much but have become content with what I have. In short I am free of relationship drama, live a life that is less stressful and am better for it. I don’t need a man in my life to define who I am as a person and a woman as I plough my own furrow. Yes I miss male company from time to time but that need won’t drive me into dating hell or assclown land.
LilDebby,
I don’t agree with your statement. What defines a “good relationship”? No healthy relationship is good all the time, but I do not believe that the majority of men are emotionally unavailable either. I believe that if you meet some men at certain ages they may have issues with making a commitment, but just because things don’t work out with some men doesn’t mean they were EUM overall. They just weren’t right for you. Not everybody you date is going to be the person you spend the rest of your life with.
I don’t think it is brave to walk away from a person who unfolds or to live a single life. I think it is necessary because you deserve better and if that means you will be single until you find that, then so be it. Regardless of your relationship status you should be happy independent of anybody, not just men.
If all our race was genuinely emotionally attracted and loved each other – god help us – we would have a much bigger problem with relationships, than you feel we have right now. Focus on YOUR needs and find someone who fits those – you only need one – if its the right one.
I think we have so many false ideas about how men can just impact our lives but it’s not real. We’ve been sold a bunch of lies. It’s like you can only be happy if you take the reins and make it happen for yourself. It took me four years in a relationship to realize that only I am capable of making me happy. Merely being in a relationship is not going to make me want to jump over the moon. It takes more than some guy.
Was with a man with kids for a year…no title whatsoever because “he wasnt ready & scared”. The good girl that I am still remained faithful, loyal given the circumstances. Kept proving, telling him dont want anything TOO serious like moving in together but did want the title, exclusivity. Constantly denied…argued almost every other week mainly because of it. Told me his scared if we didnt work out the kids will be too attached and wanted to only see me every other weekend. I live 2 hrs away so I only see them on the weekends anyways.
Restricted from being exclusive, having a title, and then from seeing and spending time with him. I know I have to leave and let go, but stupid me always ends up goin back to only have the same results.
I am alone in this country…with an even lower self esteem. Wished he would see and realize how good I am for him, but if he hasnt seen it in a year he probably never will. Just wish had the will power to just forget, block and STOP!
swv77,
I can feel your pain through the monitor. Might I ask what you get out of the relationship? Did you feel like you were going to be a happy family, despite his seemingly many warnings to you? Do you like the challenge he presents? Do you think he respects you for going back all the time?
I say: run,don’t walk away, RUN!
Volunteer, join some clubs, read, journal, be by yourself for awhile. All things that are okay!
I don’t think this chap is for you, and is definitely not worth the pain.
{Virtual} Hug…
swv77, it is not him who needs to see – it is YOU! You are in fantasy land.
Your needs and values are not the same as his – your lowered self esteem proves it.
No he is not going to change – ever – and neither are you and thank goodness.
You need to wake up and see what he is really for you – and yes sometimes it takes a year or two for YOU to see it. You have even written ‘was’ as a precurser to describing your relationship with him. Stop torturing him and yourself.
Swv77 I had the same experience, please find a courage and leave him, I wasted more than one year, and my AC#2 never introduced me to his 5 years old son, always found excuses…I know it is hard in the beginning, but trust me eventually you will feel better xx
Thank you all for your comments and concerns. Sadly, I already know in my mind what is right to do…and yet my actions does the exact opposite. There is no one to blame but myself for constantly letting him treat me the way he does.
I don’t really benefit much from all this..I am independent on my own but I guess really needy and clingy emotionally. I have started to see a therapist to help me be me again.
I survived being cheated on by my ex husband of 12 years, miscarriages, standing on my own financially. I know I am stronger than this…its just sometimes I dont understand why must the bad things constantly happen to good people…with all the past experiences Ive had I still have yet to lose hope for love..to love. I sometimes wished that I couldnt careless…that I could just be cold hearted: (
SWV77 – It takes two to tango.
The blame is NEVER all yours. That is like saying you are dating a two year old with zero ability to control his behaviour and understand its impact on you or others. Unless you are a peodophile – STOP using his bad behaviour, to have a pity party and let him off the hook.
Love yourself for surviving this rubbish.
The timing is perfect for me too as I was recently pondering this. I have been seeing a man who is good in many ways we complain about here… he calls me every day, does little things for me, is always there to help me. So in actions is pretty consistent.
But I have been wanting to break off the relationship because I don’t think we are on the same page. He wants to just live together unless we want to stop. I asked him what he saw as the best case scenario between us and that was it… continue as we are for longer. I see no mention of joint goals or visions of the future. No loving words. The typical EU dynamic in so many ways.
I keep trying to think of the good points and how hard them alone are to find. I’m missing how this is different than what I envision for my future. I am also doing the last chance saloon thing. There has to be some reliable guys out there somewhere.
Natalie, I have to thank you for making so many things about my life clear. When I was young and started trying to date, I didn’t have much luck. It was the start of the road to a lower self-esteem. I watched guys that I knew, and knew that the girls knew were complete douches, get laid every week end through high school and college and grad school. I read into it that there was something wrong with me. I would get comment like girls want a challenge. I believed in being a decent person that didn’t use others or treat them like things, but it seemed that there was something defective about me. Along the way, I was told I would never get a woman, so I eventually settled for someone that took complete advantage of me (read – sociopath), and again I internalized it. We divorced after seven years, and I thought (and she told me passive-aggressively) that it was all my fault. A couple of years later I started dating someone else that was EU, and ignored the down side of the package for a year. Then found BR. (Wish I had done that sooner…) Anyway, I have come to realize there was absolutely nothing wrong with me. It was the girls/women that were seriously damaged. Reading all of these postings explains why now. Women considered me boring exactly because I wasn’t the challenge an AC or EUM is. I wasn’t boring; I was healthy. I was told I was too desperate because I treated people equally with love, care, trust, and respect. I wasn’t desperate; I was decent. I was also discerning and not willing to settle for women looking for a no-commitment lay, or to treat me as a fall-back boy while they hunted for something better. And I wasn’t EU, I was an am very emotionally available, but this is exactly what scared away EU women, and still does (I guess for the best). I didn’t suffer from poor relationships until I let others convince me that they were right and I was defective in some way, and started ignoring my instincts. BR gave that confidence and judgement back, without my feeling guilty for recognizing these people shortcomings. Thank you.
Cyrano your story is mine also – apart from – you weren’t emotionally available once you internalized all the negative external messages you received – and believed them – even if/when you pretended you didn’t. And all your subsequent choices and actions, that attracted the bad relationships, were based on that.
Good Luck to us all – yes we were originally decent till the blinders were put on us – then it was pear shaped all around. I am grateful to BR in helping to take off that blindfold and help us to begin to be genuinely confident and happy and live for real.
EXACTLY.
On behalf of all women, let me apologize! I personally always went for the emotionally available ones and was with one for ten years until something I can’t write here happened. It was only after that devastation that I shut down, and then ended up with an EUM. But good for you for not changing and becoming a “jerk” to get more women!
Thanks Diane, a part of it is trying to have character and integrity regardless of those other outcomes. Deep down I believe people should be treated a certain way. There is probably some ‘people pleasing’ in there, but for the most part it is a personal philosophy. BR helped make sense out of a lot that happened and let me realize it wasn’t all my fault. In fact very little of it was (like blaming the victim). I put faith in other people having character and integrity that wished to be decent, and realized a lot don’t. They are selfish, lazy, and self centered. Learning to see it and not ‘giving them the benefit of the doubt’ or feeling guilty for being critical brought the world into a new perspective. Your feelings and views count.
That’s correct – No its not all your fault – you are responsible for YOUR feelings and views and they are responsible for THEIR feelings and views.
@Cyrano: I LOVE your self-awareness: ‘I wasn’t boring, I was healthy…I wasn’t desperate, I was decent.’ Good for you!! 🙂
Thanks Dee, It’s been 14 months with BR to make sense of so many things. Growing isn’t easy and taking the blinders off to see your own role in things isn’t gentle.
Man, is it possible to be both the chopper and the Mockingbird?? I have been talking to this guy, an old friend, for several months and I fell for him (long distance mind you). I knew that he and his ex were considering getting back together around the time that we started talking more often but everything indicated that things would be moving in my direction. Dreamer. They moved back in with each other. We were still talking and I essentially became the side chick (never stated but that’s how I viewed it). Long story short, we still met up in May…I was future faked into believing that we had a future together, looked forward to a full weekend in Memphis with this man only for him to cancel due to his new job and find that the day after our sexual encounter he was in my hometown with his family and girlfriend’s family for a graduation and the week after our planned getaway, he and his girl were able to make time to go to New Orleans for his bday. Let me back up to clear confusion. May 1, I was visiting the south for a job interview and he and I met up halfway between my hometown and his (MS gulf coast). I returned home only to see a fb status of his being in my hometown which caused me to question, why didn’t we just meet there? We were due to travel to Memphis (halfway point between his home and where I was currently living in OH) together and that’s when he cancelled due to his new job. First week in June, fb post of them together in NO. I was pissed and it became almost irrational the amount of anger I had and I cut him off. We talked maybe a few times afterwards and of course the sexual dialogue, porn convos started again and then I fully blocked his number from my phone. Relief!!!! So why the hell did I reengage him after 2 months of no contact to try and meet up again due to horniness and obviously loneliness. I feel so crazy about it. And I feel that even though we seem to be amicable, I just feel stupid. Selective amnesia. I’m simply remembering all of the reasons now for blocking him through typing this post. I was more than willing and probably still am to ignore his traits and behavior because of how he makes me feel physically (not just in a sexual sense but completely open, etc.). It’s frustrating. To top it off, he was attempting to make it seem as if I was the one at fault because I blocked him!!! Then of course I started to talk too much about how I had to protect my heart and blah blah blah. I don’t know. In the process of blocking him again. Thanks for the opportunity to vent and come to terms with what I was avoiding. I had been attempting to avoid coming here as I knew I’d be reminded of how ridiculous my situation was.
SWW,
Sounds like you’re more alone with him, than without. This situation will tear your self esteem to bits.
You do have the power , yet you’re choosing not to use it! Who were you before this relationship? Is that woman still present ?
Stephanie,
Totally agree!
Also, if we have such a negative perception, we will only attract creeps!
Mimi,
You should have bailed when he was reconsidering a reconciliation .
Hon, you weren’t future faked, as he had just returned to the gf.
I see lots of comments are about being alone. I’ve just been taking stock of my life and after taking some time to write and reflect, realise it’s a big part of my subconscious.
My day to day existence is exciting and interesting, so much more going on than the barren landscape of a few years ago (and most of my life), and so many wonderful people around me, so much to be happy about and a more fulfilling life than I dreamed of.
But then last week I had some dark dreams, one where I poisoned myself and another that was poo-related! I’ve never had these dreams before. I know I have to try and figure them out, because the dreams I’ve had in the past have been some reflection of what’s happening. When I was in my toxic relationship, I had terrifying dreams where I would get hopelessly lost and confused, sometimes losing the ability to walk, while in the daytime I was telling myself I was in a loving home and everything was fine. I never had them since I left.
After a lot of thinking and writing, I think these new dreams are partly because I still carry hurt and pain from family neglect and callousness, and also that I fear being alone if anything bad happens to me. Perhaps I’m thinking too much about how I ‘should’ feel and burying the feelings I don’t want to have. It doesn’t mean the joy isn’t real or that all the work I’ve put into transforming myself is for nothing, or that I haven’t radically changed my destructive thought processes, I think I just need to acknowledge that no amount of progress is going to fill the void of having no immediate family and the lack of a safety net. I take those dreams as a warning that the old me is still there, and I must accept and love her. I can feel strong for turning down casual sex and acting like a worthwhile person, but I’m allowed to feel sad too, that this person wasn’t instead someone I can share the love with that is so abundant in me.
As I think about it, I realise I do have a safety net, I belong to a community and have good friends, and while the state has been cut back pretty drastically, there are services if I need them. I remember being outraged when an acquaintance suggested he wanted to settle down so someone could care for him if he was ill, but now when I look deep inside, I find similar anxieties, and by facing them, realise they’re unfounded. We should never rely on one person. They could run a mile or even be abusive if we were vulnerable, they might be unavailable or resentful. A counsellor once told me I shouldn’t put all my eggs in one basket. While it’s a cliche, it stuck with me, and if ever I feel reliant on someone, will try to find ways to detract from so much attention on them.
So it is helpful to face our anxieties, but then a step further to having a healthy mind is to acknowledge that they still exist, no matter how much we rationalise against them. Just because I’ve debunked it, and now might not have those bad dreams again, doesn’t mean it will disappear before it’s ready to.
I suppose. I just want to know how to fix myself. Why are others stronger, and quicker to run and let go? He did say that he could see himself with me in Atlanta and from that moment my mind was screwed…hanging on to every word. I just feel crazy.
Hi mimih23,
This is my input:
1 ) After my last breakup I find very disrespectful if somebody dates with me and another person/s in the same time.
2 ) The letting go started with FULL NO CONTACT and keeping the door closed for this person. Yes I was contacted, but for not relevant reasons. The person was asking me some questions like “what’s the weather or did I watch the movie”. Yes she couldn’t believe, that I am cutting her from her life and that’s why she was asking me stupid questions to check if I am still there for her. If you do no contact expect something like this. Strange attention looking from the other side.
This blog, the NO Contact book rule book and NO contact itself really helped me.
I’ve chosen NC, not because to provoke and try to win back the other person. I chose myself. I wanted to heal and to make me available for the next person in my life, that will treat me with mutual respect.
Finally as much you stay in the toxic situation as much time you will need to heal.
Take care.
Because they value themselves and their needs more.
The message above is in reply to mimih23
Mimi,
It gets to a point where enough is enough.
When you consistently see that they do not follow through with action – especially, when they are with another – you have to let go for the sake of sanity.
This man is taken and is with another person, it does not matter what he says, he’s taken. Put yourself in her shoes, and think about how you would feel, if the situation were reversed.
Ladies, we have to look out for each other!!!
I have. I want to tell on him. I wanted to know if she knew. They’ve had a history of break ups so he’s obviously done this before. I just can’t wrap my head around my mindset. Why does it hurt? Why am I angry? Why do I feel stuck? I keep wanting to cry but I can’t. This is day two. I was on my way to mental freedom until we started talking again. Like a failure in sticking to what’s right for me. I’m supposed to be completing my 1st month of my 6 month hiatus from my non existent dating world to focus on my dreams, business, finances….but nope I’ve hindered myself again. Well I’m starting over. I just need my mind cleared. I just need to get it out .
Then block his/your ability for contact.
End it once and for all!
Allison, I did that already. First time, I only blocked him from my phone. We weren’t friends on FB anymore because he got scared or whatever of what I’d do on FB (which came out of the blue…we shared videos so…) so I didn’t think we’d be able to communicate on there either. Wrong! That’s how he got back in touch with me after my move to see how it was going and then added what he’d do to me sexually, etc. etc. 3 weeks go by and bam I’m the one that re-engages due to horniness (clarification for any earlier mentions of loneliness…moreso horniness is what I was attempting to convey…being lonely in bed, etc.)
Yesterday, I reblocked his number on my phone and blocked him fully on FB I hope that works, I already had him filtered but according to the settings, he shouldn’t be able to even send a message now. Deleted his number from my phone (I just did that for another childhood friend a few weeks ago who’s been in and out of my life for years whose words of love I hung on to like a puppy on a bone. While overseas, this dude would write about how he loved me, etc. I had my whole church praying for him. Comes back to the states like oh never mind basically. I’m always trying to be the supportive friend. I apparently have a trend of being around guys who have never been able to commit to the smallest of things (meetup, drink, movie, whatever)).
Next, I need to check my Hotmail and Google+. He might remember that he has my email.
Yes this is part of it – dumping all the rubbish so you can move on happily. Get it all out in a safe environment is much better than sucking it all in, pretending it didn’t happen. Give yourself a break. It isn’t easy at the beginning but it will get easier.
I am not sure about the telling her thing – it seems revenge to me. I’m also not sure how it will make you feel better? Surely the best revenge is sorting yourself out, being loving and patient and giving to yourself, sorting out why you were so desperate to believe the future faking and so little from him? Every attempt at revenge I’ve ever had made me feel great for about a mili-second and then guilty as sin for a lot, lot longer than that.
I don’t know – maybe someone with some experience in this could say what they think?
“Yes this is part of it – dumping all the rubbish so you can move on happily. Get it all out in a safe environment is much better than sucking it all in, pretending it didn’t happen. Give yourself a break. It isn’t easy at the beginning but it will get easier.”
“I am not sure about the telling her thing – it seems revenge to me. I’m also not sure how it will make you feel better? Surely the best revenge is sorting yourself out, being loving and patient and giving to yourself, sorting out why you were so desperate to believe the future faking and so little from him? Every attempt at revenge I’ve ever had made me feel great for about a mili-second and then guilty as sin for a lot, lot longer than that.
I don’t know – maybe someone with some experience in this could say what they think?”
My friend here in town told me it would be a bad idea to tell. I showed her his messages to me after I initiated NC. She stated that all that would happen is that I would be made to look foolish. Besides I think she already knows and that she’s tolerant. I only say this because for them to have been together for roughly 10 years on and off and to have fathered two children by two different women, yeah, I think there’s more to that relationship than meets the eye. I, for some reason, thought that we’d be different it seems. Overlooking the bad for all the good that was exiting his mouth. Then I’d take in a dose of reality and say oh no, he’d do the same. Then it became a back and forth until I just had to stop my head from thinking about it. Obsessive tendencies and red flag avoider.
Don’t be so hard on yourself – what he has done/doing is not good – he seduced you which is the same as saying he conned you and he is probably very, very skilled at it, having done it many, many times and probably practising it daily.
The thing is Mimih23 when are you going to give yourself the love and care you obviously crave so you don’t need these wasters? Listen to your friend she is giving you love and care in her honest and intelligent answers to your dilema and work on building more of that for yourself. Do things that you know WILL put you in a better place and are safe for you – guaranteed.
I know it feels right now that the sun will not shine again – but I promise you it does and its so so glorious, why would you miss another second of it? You are looking to validate yourself with someone who simply will never give a damn, when he was looking like he gave a damn about you – he was lying/had his mask on and has proved in your eyes that he is a serial non-carer. The man you cared about does not exist.
Natalie has a post about looking to validate yourself with other people and why you may be doing it – I can’t remember its title but look up the older posts on the title line above – you may find it or others that help you.
As I told someone else – this ‘gentleman’ is not worth a hair on your head. However you are important – every single grain of you – its what makes you who you are. Go get some joy and real love in your life. You deserve it.
Wonderful post from Natalie as usual. I’ve been single for almost a year now and I haven’t felt that ‘happy’ for such a long time! I don’t have to invest any emotion in some EUM and I don’t feel like I have to prove anything to any anyone for them to treat me with love, care and respect in return. Hooray I love myself more now and I have to regrets that I walked away from this farce of a relationship.
I live my life without an intimate (male) partner & have done so at various times, for years at a time, essentially by choice. I am not ‘brave’ for doing this. Frankly, I say this is smart, because there’s no way in hell I will ever be with or stay with a man because I ‘need’ to for whatever reason (with the sole exception of hopefully finding my ‘the one’ eventually to share my life with as ‘icing on the cake’ for a life that is already happy & satisfying as created by ME). When I open myself to love it’s almost always to compliment a pre-existing happy & fulfilling life. I have not looked to a man for anything other than as a bonus since my late teens. I personally think this is healthy.
Alleluyah and an amen to that!!!
In the sense that its great teachable – I’m with you on this.
Sounds like an attitude we all aspire to, but what are you doing in this webpage? You don’t seem to have problems the rest of us here strggle with.
Because others can learn as we have. I too am on the same page as teachable and believe me I could write a book about the man I divorced.
Teach
I admire you. My real weakness despite my accomplishments, toughness, etc is that I still crave sex, physical affection, long intelligent convos with a man I am attracted to. Workplace friends, community groups just don’t cut it. How does one force oneself to accept a man-less celebate life against one’s will? It seems as though this is what I have to force myself to do, at least for a few years till I can get established elsewhere or retire.
Yes the sex thing, was quite difficult for me until I finally understood – it was fantasy – all of it – even when I thought it was real – and fantasy was wasting my precious time finding something real!
Physical things like hugs are hard to replace – so it might be daft but making yourself nice things like hot water bottles to hug and give you back heat are better any day than another round on the pain merry-go-round.
If your work mates and community groups don’t cut it on their own – a massage or indian head massage might add to them. If you can’t afford it get a library book on it and find some of those community people who also want to learn and have a laugh learning to do it – even a hand or foot massage from someone else or an orgasmatron head stimulator beats going out with another a**clown.
Replacing physical sensations of an a**clown doesn’t have to be hard, but you do need to spend a bit of time regularly looking for stuff for yourself that you like and feel comfortable with. You are looking for things to give you physical sensations – heat, touch, smell etc… They are much, much more reliable, safe and mostly available when you need them. They may not beat the physical sensation of a good relationship but they beat a bad one every time.
Celebacy, is fully by my will and I thank something for giving me the wisdom for it because I’m not going back to that rubbish again for anything. Good question Noquay.
I just broke NC yesterday after a mere few days. I’ve been reading so many posts and comments on this site nearly all night in order to try and regain a sense of control and how I move forward after stupidly txting. Then txting again&again when he didn’t reply. When he eventually replied it was to say hes in a bad place right now, isnt happy, blah blah. So maybe he was happy I had started NC and maybe hadn’t noticed. I just struggle with the thoughts. Of the good times and all we have some. The thought of him not in my life makes me breathless yet he has been a classic EUM for the entire time I’ve known him. I just need to not contact him ever again. Or look at his fbook page. I have deactivated my account as it makes me anxious but when I had my mad moment I reactivated just to look at his page&see what hes doing…this only serves to make me more anxious and want to text him. Feelings low and lost. This site is a total godsend.
Kate, what you wrote resonated with me so much. Please know that there are many many sane, independent and strong women who have been in a situation just like yours – as if under a spell, obsessing about someone etc etc. I’ve been there. I am 9 months post break up that I have initiated with my EUMM and I am starting to see a glimpse of what I was before this rollercoaster and regain my sanity only now. What definitely did not help is that unlike your EUM, mine used to ignore my post break up messages. But only to come back a week later to have a friendly chat or under some other pretense. What I should have done immediately was to cut ALL contact. No fb stalking, block his imessage contacts and phone numbers. Emails. Give yourself space and silence to CONCENTRATE on YOU. Your message talks about him, about his not replying, his being unavailable. Think about you. He has already proven to you that he won’t be thinking about you. Months from now on you’ll look back and see that you’ve dodged a bullet, you got a lucky ticked by getting out. Be kind to yourself. Listen to yourself. Do all the things you did for that man and the things he did not do for you that you desperately wanted and do them for yourself.
Lovely message.
Thanks Still Mr. U. He essentially did the same thing to me that yours did. He was blocked from my phone and we were no longer friends on facebook (He actually initiated the fb thing which I think was done because he feared that I would post something that would get him into trouble. It came out of nowhere.) After my move back south, he found a way to send a fb message to me. Asking me if I had moved, etc. then got right to how he wanted to see me and if I’d be available on the 11th of September. The nerve. Yet it got in my head!! He was still on lockdown from my phone until the end of September and that’s when I initiated contact. Loneliness is a bitch especially when you’re trying to establish new roots. What’s funny is that I’m not alone! I’m home with fam!!!! I need to go on a retreat and just clear my mind cuz it’s ridiculous!!
Hello mimih23,
Mine deleted me from FB and and after 2 weeks has sent me a message over FB chat. Really odd. Yes I felt validated and answered, but there was no sense to continue communication. I decided to get a break from FB, because if I see her message I will answer again. After the break I checked the FB message from her: “Do you want to go out and to eat pizza?” The message was 3 weeks old. She was pressing the reset button. I answered, that there will not be more communication between us and wished her all the best, after that I moved her in the spam box. The funny thing was, that I got the decision to draw the line / to say goodbye 3 months before the last FB message. I wanted 5 minutes personal conversation and even knocked on her door, because I knew, that this is the end. She didn’t open and send me a message that there wasn’t relationship in the past months … how easy to say: “I don’t get any responsibility for my actions”. Well she is a history.
Short list what the EU has written to contact me:
I actually tried NC couple of times, but she found ways to contact me by texts:
– My daughter wants to play with your dog, can we come to visit?
– Sorry, that I behaved bad last weeks.
– Our mutual friend is in the city, may be you want to meet him?
– Are you able to consult me about possible software project of my company?
– Can you come to my office to help me to test on scanner?
– How can I recover erased files from the HDD?
– How can I send online invoice and to see if the customer have seen the invoice?
– Listen David Hallyday – high.
– There is new cake in the baker where we go usually.
– What music the play club XYZ, because I have to organize company event?
If you are in very good connection with your family you can try to share with them, what happened with you. For example I am in very good connection with my parents and have spoken with them about all the drama … this really helped me to calm down.
Finally I realized, that I better without this person in my life!
If you want to see the biggest part of my story you can check this: https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/stop-giving-you-a-hard-time-for-not-having-the-perfect-or-right-reaction/comment-page-1/#comment-518973
Still Mr. U — all of those texts are phony pretexts to see if you’re still around “on the hook” ready for her to reel you in one more time. They’re all phony excuses. And highly disrespectful of your desire for NC, by the way, but then again, NC comes from us and what WE do and how WE enforce it, because they will bash down the NC barrier whenever they need a fix or a hit or more narcissistic supply. Yes, you are so much better off without all the drama!
Just for the record, the messages listed above were sent to me when I was trying to do NC without telling her, that I am doing NC. I also have fault, because initially after the breakup she suggested NC, but I haven’t respected it. Of course I know why I broke the NC and it was because I had hopes and I was optimistic … it wasn’t seeking for attention. When I broke the NC I asked for giving a chance for the relationship … I haven’t asked nonsense questions.
After I knocked on her door to have final conversation and telling her I am doing NC in the next months she send me 3 messages in FB chat ( she deleted me from FB, but she was able to send me messages ):
1 ) “A friend of mine is looking for job. Do you have open positions in your company?” ( in this moment I had my own company )
2 ) She saw me on the street during the day and after the end of the work day I got this: “Hmm, but you are very tall. For the meetings / dates got to shop X to buy jeans, go to shop Y to buy shirt. The perfume is from me.” I kindly rejected and said the it’s important what is inside the person and the clothes matters not at all. On the other hand I was thinking WTF, does she thinks that I will accept perfume from her and will go on dates with other girls … I don’t want to smell the perfume, that will remind me of her and to be on a date with another girl … f**k no!
3 ) I got a long break from FB, because I knew, that I will respond if she writes to me. So after I opened the FB inbox there was message: “Do you want to go out and to eat pizza?” I just told here, that I prefer no more communication and meetings, wished all the best and put her in spam.
Hope, that this can help to somebody else.
Well, you also sold your company and moved to other part of the country as part of your NC. Respect! 🙂
Your ex was also highly emotionally manipulative – most of us like to help, so it’s difficult to ignore questions about jobs for unemployed friends, or letting a child you know play with your dog. It couldn’t have been easy for you at all.
Mephista,
Yes I think, that it wasn’t easy and I had really low self esteem at that time, but I already was reading BR and what really helped me was reading the other people’s stories.
I didn’t sell the the company, I closed it and easy found a job in another country and right now I am in very good place. ( in our niche is easy find a job )
May be it sounds extreme to move and to close a business, but I caught myself not behaving like myself. I usually was very careful with the people, but I actually became a bit harsh. One day I was staying outside the office with a friend. A young man came and asked us when the dentist’s cabinet which was in our building will open. ( the dentist have passed away 3 months before that day ) I answered to the man, that the dentist has passed away, I said this to the man without preparing him for the bad news. The man became sad and has looked down. The man asked when and how this happened and my friend gave him all the information. After the man walked away my friend asked me to be more careful and not to say news like this in the way I did it. He asked me: “What if this man was his relative?” Sad story, but this was the first moment when I realized, that I have a problem.
I tried to solve the problem by myself, but even NC wasn’t enough, because I had a chance to see her every day and this didn’t help. I had the opportunity to take care about myself and I did it! I am taking long break from seeing her. I hope to be indifferent if I see her again.
I think you did great! You hit the nail on the head for yourself, when you said you caught yourself NOT acting like yourself and also noticed you were being uncharacteristically harsh with others.
Good luck to you Still Mr U.
That person you got away from, sounds highly, highly skilled at manipulation. A persons scent is a highly intimate thing to choose for someone else and extremely controlling if they are not part of your life at the time. I hate to say it but it’s actually like a dog spraying! You were very clever to be alert to it and get away.
Another thing. I was abstinent in both dating and sexual activity for seven years. I gave it away to a “friend” which messed me up emotionally. I keep thinking that I am better now and that I should be able to explore dating and sexual freedom. I shall retreat into my work now. Forget this.
Christina: I feel you on this: “But now I know he NEVER cared about ME; only about himself, and as much pain as that causes, at least now I know the truth. If I hadn’t…”. You always have to take action in order to see how the other responds. Amazing.
To clarify my latest rant, I was essentially attempting to add color to my own mental state concerning relationships, etc. My re-entrance into the potential dating, sexual thing has been wrong from the get go…starting with the supposed friend mentioned above to the latest long distance, childhood “friend” that I’m attempting to convince myself that it’s not worth my involvement. I think I’ve gotten caught up thinking that these are my only options now at 34. That somehow, because of my work, my circles that I find myself in….that I’m not going to find anyone. I can’t believe after all of that that I may be saying out loud that I’ve settled. This site makes me talk too much. lol! Self-deceit is real and I have to stop it.
Mimih23, mimih23, mimih23. Stop this now. Focus on yourself. Simply non contact with ex’s is not enough. You have to do the work to sort yourself out and get to the bottom of this – or go through the pain merry-go-round again.
What do you want? It’s your choice.
Yes he tricked you – you allowed it and set the furtile ground for it to grow and happen in. Now what do you want?
You may be surrounded by zillions of ‘friends and family’ but I can tell you that if they don’t fully reflect back to you what your inner values and needs are, they are a complete and utter waste of time and worse – they are damaging.
If you are feeling alone its because you are.
You need to be around people you can exercise fully your true values, your true needs and be fully vulnerable with. If you feel alone its because you aren’t for some reason able to do this, either you don;t feel good enough or you feel you have to edit yourself for some reason. Either way there is something going on here you are not dealing with.
Having had repeat EU relationships I can tell you the horror!! – and relief!! – I felt when I finally realised that the EU relationships didn’t merely contain themselves to boyfriends only – they also were evident in the everyday relationships and family I had at that time around me – I thought to a lesser degree than the boyfriend’s but when you put them all together the affect is insidious and informed my whole attitude and feelings towards myself and ultimately the boyfriends I chose.
You need to go through as many BR posts as possible that you feel pertain to you and keep working for yourself. Loneliness is a key – you are being told something – you can choose to ignore it and not use it but I guarantee you will be back again with a slightly different but worse story if you don’t wake up to reality. That these people make you feel lonely.
Like Nat says stop looking at only the good things – open your eyes to the full reality.
Oona- I can relate to your comment to Mimih23. When I was EU, it reflected most strongly in the romantic arena but it reflected in all my other relationships as well. This is because being EU is an internal problem. Wherever our bodies are, our internal workings are there as well.
When I’m feeling lonely or suffering from some other emotional pain, I’ve learned/am learning to sit with it. Pain is an “angel”, a messenger. It’s telling me that something is wrong. In therapy I learned to recognize the “angel” and learned the various ways I try to smother or run away from the “angel”. It worked for a while but, eventually I just had to learn how to receive the message and, after the “angel” is allowed to do its job, I’m ok.
Rosie, I would like to understand what is meant by allowing the “angel” to do its job. Like when you’re overcome with grief and you just start crying. What does that look like?
Mimih23- I was raised in an abusive environment. Predators don’t prey on the strong; they prey on the weak as it’s easier and, having become weak due to child abuse, I was abused outside the family as well. A coping/survival strategy is denial and mental escape, don’t know the psych term for it. Basically, it’s escaping into fantasy land in the head when the abuse is happening. Without realizing it, it became my “go to” place whenever I was hurting. It serves us well as children but not as adults but, since we may not be aware that we’re doing it, it often stays with us into adulthood.In therapy I learned/am learning to recognize when I am in pain (such as crying when grieving, as you said) but also to recognize where it’s coming from. By allowing the “angel” to do its job, I mean that I’m no longer (most of the time anyway) running away from emotional pain. I allow myself to feel it & respect it as it’s telling me there’s a need that needs addressing.
I’m a nanny and I worked yesterday (Sat.). The family hosted a dinner party and invited me to stay as a guest. The guests arrived and they treated me as a fellow guest although they knew that I’m also the nanny. I’m overcoming my social anxiety and now enjoy talking with people. For the life of me, then, I don’t know why I became shy and put myself back into servant role. It was easier to play servant than to muster the courage to talk to people. Please keep in mind that the family and guests are really nice people but I escaped into servant hood instead of addressing my social anxiety. I did not allow the “angel” to do its job. If I had, I would have acknowledged my social insecurity, put on my “big girl panties” and attempted to–GASP!–say hello to people. 😉
I hope this clarifies better what I mean. 🙂
Rosie
Oh wow, that helps a lot. I will be analyzing that for myself now.
Really lovely description Rosie of what I was trying to say. Thank you. I love the idea of listening to the angel in us.
Oona, you’re right. This latest incident is my “slightly different but worse story”. Well not exactly as bad as the last but different nonetheless. I’ve been told that I probably need to seek help and I believe that I do too. I just moved so I’m working on rebuilding my “team” and seeking a therapist along with it. Team = doctor, dentist, trainer, massage therapist, ob gyn. I have a history with my family but I still view them as loving and accommodating especially now that I’ve come home (after 8-9 years) and I think that my leaving when I did served notice that I wouldn’t be tolerant of certain things (mainly being the referee between my parents). My move involved leaving an extremely toxic work environment. I still have the same job but I get to work remotely and be close to home as my peers were toxic. I wasn’t going to deal with that daily anymore and I’m glad that I was able to do this as my new office is filled with people who seem rather content with their life and work and aren’t focused on trying to diminish the efforts of their peers, talk bad about management for the sake of talking and how they can have the job (our group was just formed in December 2013 and I was recruited by this company from my former which was becoming toxic with the whole going public and people looking out for themselves mentality). It was ridiculous, and I always felt like I was in the middle trying to soothe tensions.
I have always edited myself throughout life…I’m the oldest and I’m supposed to be perfect in my eyes anyway. I used to be a very conservative (reformed theology) Christian. I just walked away from that too. He came around into my life via facebook when a lot of important decisions were made or in the process and he seemed extremely supportive until he’d make comments about if he were to move with me that would it be ok if he became a househusband, etc. for a while…stupid stuff like that….like looking for a sugarmama….then the obvious actions of his trying to balance the other relationship all the while telling me that he wanted to be with me. Lies…just more lies.
I’ll get there. I just need to vent to help start the process and hopefully find some real help in proper verbalization of my issues and proper aid.
I tossed myself under a bus in a work contest…a football pool….no serious consequences, mostly a bragging rights win. But I’ve had a headache over it for days now, because I know I tossed myself under the bus for fear of competing with the NPD coworker who is bent on making my life miserable.
I know this headache I have is about compromising myself…I’m angry at myself. Compromising myself is a learned behavior…done so many times to please my NPD mother.
Since finding BR and learning more about those hidden triggers and motivations, I’ve been more true to my own voice when dealing with my mother. In these last few weeks my “voice” has led me to disagree with Mom’s opinion over various things, small things. For example, I bought a blouse for a friend of hers, for her 77th birthday..showed it to Mom who promptly said “It’s no good. Marie has a big stomach and that won’t cover it.” My first reaction was to say OK, I’ll return it. I started feeling down about that decision, went back to Mom and said Look, it’s here, we may as well let her try it, I’ll take it back if it doesn’t work. Well, Marie loved it and has called to tell me she’s worn it 3 times and gets so many compliments. This past weekend I took both my parents (they’re divorced, but we have amicable holiday visits) to a comedy show – this occurred because Mom overheard I do comedy shows with my Dad, so she found out about a show and got two tickets for me and her (very odd, and I paid her for my ticket)….I asked if she’d mind if I got one for Dad…she said no…we all went and Mom said hardly two words and those she did say were very snarky towards my Dad. I recognized that I had always played the role of buffer between those two…trying to get Mom to be nicer to Dad, taking Dad’s side on subjects.
So I relate to these postings about our parents, and seeing the WHOLE package. Yes my parents were responsible and took care of me. But my father is a martyr, my mother is a narcissistic bully, and I am no longer going to throw myself under the bus for anyone. Must unlearn that behavior.
Mimi, you said yourself that you were a referee between your parents and that you feel like this at job as well I was also a referee between my parents and had very similar feelings at my jobs, being unappreciated and ignored despite being so good and trying so hard. Even if I complained at work, the best I got was future faking and fast forwarding. Thinking why they behaved this way caused me much pain. The same goes for my romantic relationships. Being exposed to hot and cold dynamics and having a feeling that I have to work so hard to being loved was just a replication of my family relationships. It was very hard and extremely painful for me to accept that I had a crappy absent father who primarily loved himself and that my mother loved me conditionally. But then I realised something. I’m no longer a child. I won’t die if my parents are inadequate because as an adult I can take care of myself. I’m no longer a child who needs to figure out my parents to survive childhood (and I haven’t had even remotely such horrible experiences as Rosie). I don’t need to figure out anybody because they, too, are adults and can take care of themselves. I can focus on myself, my wants and needs. I stopped being hurt about how badly my previous job treated me and got myself a much better job. I’m very careful now that I won’t start projecting my family relationships into worplace. I haven’t been this lucky with a new relationship (I’ve been single for quite a long time because I keep meeting EUMs) but I stopped losing so much time with inadequate men and … what have I done wrong so they don’t commit (there came a point where I literally felt like being with my father, walking on eggshells around him and trying to figure out what he wanted). As Cyrano, I realised there’s nothing wrong with me, I just have a tendency to get hooked to a toxic dynamic which I first experienced in my family. I hope I’ll find myself somebody nice, but if I don’t, I don’t want to go back to where I was never ever again.
You’re also hooked to a toxic dynamic, not this guy. You don’t even see this guy, let alone care about him (as Natalie says, when we love somebody for what they could (should) be, we don’t love them at all). Stop obssessing how horrible he is and how badly he behaves and treats you, what his present partner knows ect. He doesn’t appear as the guy of the year but you don’t come out of this story smelling of roses either. Start thinking about yourself, why do you do it, how can you protect yourself and from yourself, which dynamic are you hooked to, how to recognise it and avoid it on time, are your family/ friends really loving? Be brave, you can do it. Remember what Mr. Still U wrote, the longer this will drag on, the more difficult it will be to recover from. Good luck!
Mephista-thanks for your response. That confirms my need for additional assistance. I always come across as the positive type. Helper type. I recognize toxic situations regarding work and family. Why though is it so hard when it involves the opposite sex?
Oona,
you’ve written here exactly what I needed to hear. I have broken up with my EUM three years and a half ago, almost four. When things imploded between us I also realised that “the EU relationships didn’t merely contain themselves to boyfriends only – they also were evident in the everyday relationships and family I had at that time around me”, as you write. I think this aspect of our problems (us=women who tend to go for the EUM) is too often ignored. When a woman is abused (verbally, mentally, physically), where are her friends?
Nowhere. She has none, that’s why she is with the EUM and letting him make a victim out of her.
I was terribly alone. I used to surround myself with EU people, I spent years (my 20s) thinking some people where friends when they where only there to destroy me, they were choppers, bullies, abusers. Especially female friends.
As you, Oona, write: “If you are feeling alone its because you are.” Indeed.
“You need to be around people you can exercise fully your true values, your true needs and be fully vulnerable with.”
My problem now is I don’t trust anyone. I have recently moved to a new city: it’s for a wonderful reason, I’ve gone back to university, I’m taking a degree I love, that’ll enable me to finally do what I like, and I am happy about what I am doing in my life BUT I am lonely. I read somewhere that you should stay still, look at the loneliness (I picture it as a dark forest of birc trees…), stay still and breathe and accept it with eyes open.
It’s hard, though. I long for someone to be friends with. Friends as in real friends.
I rationally know it takes time, people unfold, I am inexperienced in the healthy relationships domain so I have to be cautious…but it hurts to be alone, and it scares me. It’s like looking into the abyss.
What I feel is also that now, in this new city, I have lost some of my strenghth. I am vulnerable, speak with a very low voice, have this “don’t hurt me” attitude. Of course, I suffer from a form of PTSD, but it scares me. I would like to be able to balance being cautios, serene and strong, assertive. I am assertive and lively and corageous and full of light 🙂 but it doesn’t show now. I don’t want to go back to when I had just had that horrible fight with the EUM and my whole world had collapsed on me, and I suddenly realised it had been a lie all along, and I was hurt and bleeding and sat in a corner pleading for mercy.
I like being by myself: travelling, walking, reading, writin, drawing… in the old city I often chose to be alone. But here (or now, at this point of my life and my journey) I am excruciatingly lonely, in spite of having a much better life than before.
Tell me I can trust somebody on this world 🙂 I know I can, I am learning to look for people like me and avoid “vampires”, and yet…it hurts.
Misa, You ARE trusting people here :-)…and that will grow – with occasional knock backs – not all the time as before.
You are doing well, you are just feeling the pull of being in a strange and unfamiliar land/territory physically – like your new emotional life – keep to what makes you feel safe – until it doesn’t – do not force yourself to be someone you aren’t in the hope of not being alone – its the oldest trick in the book and it doesn’t work – you cannot connect with others, playing someone else – it will not get rid of your loneliness. Do not be tricked by others pretending or putting on a good show having a good time at something that makes you feel anxious and feel you have to do it also.
Good luck Misa, it sounds really wonderful, go out and EXPLORE in your new land but ONLY the things YOU want and that make YOU feel 100% safe doing them. It will build up so long as you keep listening to yourself. Keep in touch.
My favorite wolf is back ahhhhh, love your drawings Natalie x your post just on time – AC #1 came back to my life, I did not meet him but he bombarded me with messages and couple of his private pictures! I thought maybe he missed me after one YEAR and a half and would say something important, of course not, he wants me physically without prospect of relationship! It’s funny, because I do not take him seriously and I cannot believe that I used to love him for 5YEARS! Live and learn….
Why-thanks loads for yourself kind words. It does give me strength:) it is actually ridiculous how ive behaved but sanity checks all round now and back to No contact. I know in myself I feel so much better if I distract myself and dont even look at my phone and try not to think about what hes doing etc.
Better when he isnt in my life. I’d much rather be alone than unhappy and anxious for sure. Small steps. Thanks again x
Nine days ago I was dumped by my MrU so he could go back to his abusive wife and put 100% into “giving her a chance to change.”
This post resonated strongly with me because as I came to learn about the abuse he tolerates (really only learned about this in the last six weeks of our year long relationship), and allows his small children to witness and sometimes be victims of, and the fact that he wanted to stay in this situation rather than make a life with me, I was actually so appalled I rolled this into an alter ego and called him by a different name. I could not connect it with the man I had fallen in love with. I literally had to put this piece away in a box and shut the lid so that I could be near him.
Of course if I look back I can see how many MrU moves he pulled on me over our time together and how many other things I had put away in this box. Even post break up he has pulled some MrU moves(he has tried pulling the friend card and told me how lost he is and loves and misses me). I am trying hard to keep rolling the alternative personas together so that I can try and get over my guilt of leaving someone I love in this abusive situation. OK, so he dumped me, but I still feel this guilt because I refused to be downgraded to friend so he could use me as his comfort blanket. Part of me feels like I should be the bigger person and be his friend to help him understand he can’t change his wife and that if he needs to change her it isn’t love…though I know I’d always be hoping that the fixed up version of him would suddenly want me.
I honestly just feel sick with grief, fear and guilt right now, fear for his safety, grief that he would choose that life for himself and his children over a life with me, guilt that I’m refusing to be his friend. I am also so fixated I can bearly focus on me and recovering my self worth.
Please, please never ignore the bad points because the pain is so much greater than facing them in the first place.
Brit,
You are doing right by you. You are not being selfish.
You know you would eventually end up being his counselor, and possibly his FBG. He would use, use, use.
Stay true to you and remain NC with this guy. Stay strong!
BritG, Do not feel guilty. You are not his friend, you were in a relationship with this man and he has ended it. He does not have the right to break things off and expect you to stick around to lessen the impact of his decision while he tries to have a relationship with his ex. It is selfish of him to maintain contact. Focus on you.
Brit – you cannot rescue him – you have to rescue yourself. Please listen to allison and a. and stay on BR. You did the right thing, well done.
This is so interesting to me. Earlier I was contemplating on how my father never spent a quality moment with me. I’m pretty sure he was absent from my birth and mostly from then on. Or he was drunk & or puffin’ on the cigs. I have had many, many more quality moments with my dog (who is admittedly far better than any person I’ve know) than my father had with me. Weird. Much how my ex paraded me around to get back at his ex, cover his impotence & drinking issues, the minimal time my father did spend with me was to boost his ego and puff up his image to himself and others. He didn’t give two shits about me, which is really sick; I was a child. I care (and take better care of) my dog than my father ever did me.
Update: Been sober for near 3 months (I hate it but it’s better than using). Quit the cigs now 2 months (Those things are God awful disgusting/not sure how I ever smoked). I’ve gained 18 pounds the last 3 months; not so sure how to process this one. I look fantastic naked but my clothes don’t fit & I can’t afford to buy new ones & or walk around naked. I meditate & pray a lot; I hate that too but it makes me a better person and keeps me off the mental illness meds. So, there it is. Better bit by bit day by day.
Peanut: Can’t you buy second-hand (which is the most ecological choice anyway)? Or swap?
I wanted to add that the upside in all this business with my father, well him being a shitty father is that as an adult I get to grieve & move on; it’s been near three years since I cut contant with my father. Apart from deciding to get/stay sober, it’s by far the best decision I have made. Some people are so awful that sticking around
disolves our quality of life if we choose to stay. Walk away from toxic situations. Always.
“I was a sucker for a returning Mr Unavailable. Suddenly my resentment, hurt, frustration and all of the things that I’d identified as being unhealthy or unsuited to me were forgotten and instead I’d press the Reset Button and be back to the time before they first started showing signs of who they were and what was to come.”
Yep this is me. I know what to do. I just have to do it. I want my happy back. I want my obsessive, possessive, having to win, spoiled brat mentality to go away…..because that’s what causes someone to hold on to something….I’m supposed to win. Lol! That’s cray! I’ll take the loss if that’s what is really at work here.
I probably could have just copied and pasted the link below as my first post to this article and added the line to myself: “told you so…”. Here’s the background. Just do a search for mimih23: https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/being-the-favourite-child-or-wanting-to-be-influences-our-disposition-to-involved-in-an-affair/
Everyone who succeeds at anything in life at some point has dealt with serious losses. The business woman / the athlete / the lover. One is a rare person indeed to not have to learn to deal with this phenomenon. Go for it Mimih23.
Allison, Thanks so much for your encouraging words. I have already been his FBG for the last 9 months. I’ve had the full spectrum, blowing hot and cold, the reset button, keeping a foothold in your life. When I first met him he had a small party of women that he would keep for his audience at work – so he is a shopper too. I’ve been the other woman and Florence Nightingale, and when I look back I realise most of my time was spent under extreme anxiety wondering if his actions would follow his words.
Enough was enough for me though, and knowing I was being passed over for an abuser just made it worse. Even a FBG has the self worth to know she’s a better person than a chopper. I still hung in there until he ended it though, trying to get him to see I was a better option for him. Stupid too because I knew he would still be a MrU even if he did leave.
It’s funny because I was clearly his FBG, and he is his abusive wife’s FBG. I’ve been trying to figure which of the three of us is the most screwed up. Thoughts?
Anyway, NC it is, I’ll always wonder about him but the whole thing was killing me.
Brit, am I really supposed to believe that he has this horribly abusive wife but he still dares to f##k behind her back? And he’s so skilled so he’s been doing it for 1 year+ and hasn’t got cought by his horrible wife (I bet you’re told she was controlling, too) Errr … sorry, I don’t buy this story.
Memphista, I only wish this were bs as it would make things a LOT easier for me. The affair was all conducted on business trips and around work so fairly easy to conceal. The abuse was real, it was things he would say about how he lived that were really shocking but that didn’t even register with him as abnormal that revealed it. I could give a long list of examples but won’t in case for some reason this was ever read by either of them.
Trying to put this sorry tale behind me…
Memphista,
Who cares if his wife abused him? It sounds like you are feeling sorry for him. I honestly don’t think it is as bad has he wants you to believe. Leave him alone and go on with your life. You deserve better.
Sorry Memphista,
This was meant for BritG.!!
Brit,
Abuse is what he knows. Stability is uncomfortable .
I was in kind of a similar situation – -he didn’t return to the ex wife, but she was ever present. Made it easy for him not to commit to me . Please go back and learn from this mess, as it can be life changing . I am grateful as it changed all areas of my life. It will not happen until you understand your contribution.
Good luck!
Allison, I can see my contributions, all right there in front of me – for example I found a post-it note I had written on at the beginning – it says “Be happy, be positive, make him laugh” – a tool I used to help me ignore the early red flags. I am pretty ashamed of myself for that one.
I also did not finish with him when at the end of June, when after a wonderful week together, he turned around and said he thought we should split at the end of September when our current project ends. I STAYED, and then let him use me as a counselor to try and improve the life he was leaving me for.
Honestly just writing this has me seriously cringing at myself, what was I thinking? In the moment though its easy to panic and do anything to hold onto to them and your dream that one day they will see you for the jewel that you are.
I’m having counseling for my self esteem issues, that interestingly I started way before the end as I recognised what I was doing. The fact that I was aware of all the bad behaviour but still couldn’t break away really concerns me, it makes me feel like a bit of a lost cause!
I do plan on learning from this and not repeating this loop again (this is not my first time as a FBG by a long way).
Many thanks for all your support.
Also, Just focus on you, as you cannot change the others, nor are they important.
Thanks Allison, I am trying the best I can. NC is the right way to go. I just wish the loops wouldn’t keep playing in my head though, I never seem to stop thinking about him – not positive thoughts either, all kinds of thoughts, round and round. I JUST WANT HIM OUT OF MY HEAD!!! Maybe even writing these posts is me giving myself an excuse to focus on him???
Brit,
It’s pretty normal.
The only thing that helped me, was keeping insanely busy: Volunteering, dancing, Meet ups, yoga, etc…….. I discovered new passions and friends helped me grow and move on from this situation.
EllyB,
I really prefer second hand & swapping is a really cool idea. I think I’m a bit in denial, like oh I’ll just wake up tomorrow, eat less icecream & stop ripping my jeans. All I’ve had on the brain today is sweet rolls & pineapple chicken w/ rice. It’s funny, I would drink coffee (hate coffee/bleh!) & smoke cigs throughout the day (hate smoking) in order to avoid eating (both were appetite suppressants) and to save money (not sure that worked out anyway). My skin was a wreck (now much better) & my mind was a mess (better too). When I stopped both my appetite came back with a vengence. I did learn there are no short cuts for any of us. In romance or otherwise. But, yes, I probably do need to find a way to get proper fitting clothes.
As I get healthier, and progress in a new, really wonderful relationship, something has started to occur to me, about my previous relationship behaviour, and also my ongoing work stuff which very much mirrors the chaos I have experienced (and, let’s face it, sought out) in relationships. Here’s my realisation: We just have to get off the train, by which I mean – leave, cut contact, opt out FOR GOOD.
When the relationship feels bad, and makes us less than we know we are, we have to get off the train. When the job is crazy making, get off the train. No amount of talking, bargaining, reasoning, or analysing will change the direction of the train. It’s bigger than us, and it knows where it’s going, and if we don’t get off, then it’s taking us with it.
Where things go wrong is when, instead of getting off when we know things are bad, we try to bargain: Maybe if I change seats, maybe if I act this way? Or that? Maybe If I’m really quiet? Maybe if I try to be happy? Maybe if I’m perfect, this train will take me where I want to go. NOPE. It won’t.
I wonder if this is because when we were younger we were on a crazy train and we didn’t have the option of getting off. We do now, because we are adults, but we’ve forgotten that we can.
So now, I tell myself, when I’m facing another unwinnable work or family situation – get off the train. And until you can, or are willing to, then you might as well stop going around and around about how frustrating/unfair it is, because that’s the destination, written up there in big capitals.
Why is this so hard to do? My therapist had a nice analogy. When you change your behaviour, it’s like getting off a train you know, and waiting at a platform, not quite knowing when the new one will arrive, and where it will take you. Sometimes, it might even feel easier to get back on the old, death trap of a train because at least you KNOW it, it’s familiar. But no. Be strong. If you get off, and wait, your next journey will come along, and it will be a better one. That has been my experience absolutely, with relationships, and I am now practising the same process with work. I know instinctively that it’s the only way.
Wow Nickster, that was so brilliantly put: “Just get off the train!”. Exactly what I need to do now. In fact, I liken what happened with this relationship to a point in my life where I had finally learned (or so I’d thought) to take charge of my own destiny, and while to a certain extent I was at that time determinedly steering my little sailboat in a particular direction and then decided to raft up with a much larger ship with a gravitational pull like the tractor beam of the Death Star. Unfortunately that ship was drifting aimlessly in circles being pulled by the prevailing current in the general direction of Antarctica — a place I have absolutely no interest in going. We’re a lot closer now and it’s a lot colder and I sure wish I had jumped overboard when I could still see something that looked like land in the offing to swim to.
And the bargaining! All those years when I thought, “If only I/we had this… lived there… could do that…” ad infinitum, but to no avail. I have reached the point where I have completely run out of excuses and rationalisations and things to try, and the paint I keep trying to cover up and overwrite the destination sign with keeps peeling off, so I just have to get off this train even if I have to jump out the window. Hopefully it won’t be going over a bridge when I do. 😉
P.S. Work. That’s the next thing I need to fix after getting off the Bad Marriage Crazy Train. Cheers!
The full package indeed. Excellent post Natalie. I posted in August and in a nutshell, it was about a guy I had been seeing for 2 years in LDR. He was definitely not the full package!
He ended our relationshiop with a text and we went on our way. I initiated the NC,
I was heartbroken, it was very painful and it took months to get back to any sort of normal and it was hard letting go of those strong feelings I had from him.
I was just ‘turning the corner’ and getting back to my old self when I received an email from him last weekend which floored me. In a nutshell, this is what I have understood from what he said. He had gone back to his ex, tried to make it work
It didn’t (they had even built a house together and had to sell). He said he was relieved it was over and that so was she. This email clarified and confirmed everything I had suspected, even if he did not directly say it.
When he met me, he was not over her and I do remember that forlorn look on his face when he told me briefly about the breakup on our first date. Apart from that, he said that they had bought a flat which they had to sell when they split up and they lost money
because of the economic crisis. So in other words, they actually bought two properties during their time together and sold them. There is something very odd about that. So when he left me, it was to go back to her but he did not explain this to me – he just hightailed. With this email, I understood everything, whey he behaved the way he did, his inconsistency, mixed messages. I always felt I was with somebody who had something on his mind he was not sharing, almost like a secret. I would describe it as a kind of heaviness and I knew he was not happy about something.
I did answer this email with a ‘glad you are happy with your decision’ and that is all, I included no information about me, although he did ask. I had a further email from him asking what I thought about meeting up for coffee in mid-October when he will be in my town.
I have not answered. What would that coffee be about and what would we possibly have to talk about. Him? His ex? Me? Us? I think it is too late for all of that… now if he had sent me that invitation 9 months ago, I would have jumped for joy and now all I feel is ‘blah’. And wouldn’t it be a very awkward meeting in a coffee shop, like acquaintances and not the lovers we once were. He is maybe trying to rekindle with me but I did not get not get that impression from his mail, it was quite straightforward and no flirting. Or maybe he is trying to finish unfinished business, for himself because he may even have felt bad about the way he treated me and who knows, he may even want to apologise. I am not sure if I will answer him at all. I owe him nothing, I have nothing to regret. The slate is clean on my side and I feel so happy that in my mind it is a closed chapter after all that guessing, thinking and wondering is coming to an end. It is just like a spell has been broken and the letting go feels very strange. I am sorry for this long ‘thinking out loud’ post. Believe me, Natalie’s blog has helped SO much to get things clear in my mind. Lesson learned for me, never ever start up a relationship with somebody if you suspect that they are not over the previous one, it is the red alerts of all red alerts. I just now need to decide on the final step. Meet him or not meet him. Maybe somebody has thoughts on this. Thanks!!
I wouldn’t email him again. He made his choice back when he left you. Now that things didn’t work out for him in fairytale land, he feels you’re important enough to deserve an explanation now? F’ that! He made his bed……let him lie in it. You deserve better than being his fallback option, ego boost, shoulder to cry on, etc. I don’t buy it when folks swoop back in to say sorry after their grass in greener on the other side world caves in. He is sorry for HIM. Would he be saying sorry if things HAD worked out with his Ex? Nope, he didn’t look back and feel bad when things were working with her, did he? Stay on course Annabele. Meeting up with him will only pull the scab off the wound you went through hell to heal. Whatever his motive, it isn’t in YOUR best interest….it’s about his. He really doesn’t deserve your time now.
Annabel,
Leave this one alone and close this chapter! It’s not worth it. He made his choice to be with her, so he doesn’t get to comeback because it didn’t work out. He doesn’t need to see you for what? You don’t need to sit and listen to him discuss what went wrong with him and ex-wife, let him go to a therapist. My belief is if you leave one person for another you don’t get to comeback, ever!! Because if they can look you in your face and run the risk of losing you, they never cared in the first place. Move on and don’t respond to his message, he will get the hint.
Annabel,
It’s straight forward and not flirty because he is just oh so gently putting those feelers out there and your reply, if you choose to do so, will determine how it plays out from there.
The blah feeling you have is because basically you have moved on, if you feel that you need closure then sure meet up with him, but if you don’t then I would just stay no contact.
After all do you really need to open that can of ass clown worms again?
To all who replied to me thanks so much. It has been a resounding ‘no vote’. I hear you and I will not accept that coffee date because I already realize it is a trap. I will now go back to silence mode and not reply at all. Cheek of him to come back and try to weasel his way in. He made his choice, made his bed and can lie in it…without me. Been down that road. And there is one thing I am absolutely sure of..had I accepted, he would have most likely backed out. Know him so well. Tout va bien ! Good luck on your journies and thanks again, all is well.
Annabel,
The only person who benefits, is him.
Either he is trying to relieve a guilty conscience, or attempting to make you a rebound for the second time.
This is lose/lose. I would seriously question, as to why you would give this man the courtesy of your time????
Ignore him!
Annabel,
Going by your last paragraph it doesn’t seem like the slate is clean at your end nor is the chapter closed given you are in two minds (and in quite a bit of state) to seeing him or not. The ‘blah’ reaction you had when his email came through really is confirmation that you have (with all your work and progress) healed/moved on so there was no need to reply at all. The email was more a sign of how well you are now doing and more so important because it came from the cause. You really do not need to be caught up in his player/unwilling to commit/sob story/underdeveloped emotional pattern.
I am with all the ladies (all speak from experience) who are basically saying return to NC (changing contact details would aid your progress much further from where you are now) and leave him alone because he didn’t give a s**t or hoot about your feelings and well-being when he hightailed you for the ex. It is definitely not flattery that he has made contact….cheap shot more on his part.
There are plenty of posts by Nat that speak of this topic (the return of the ex and why) and along with our support sit down with a clear head and heart and read into reality. And below are a couple of links to get you started….
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/are-you-being-used-as-a-confidence-booster/
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/when-your-ex-returns-again-its-an-opportunity-to-do-right-by-you/
So ladies and gents, how long should one wait to ensure that a person has unfolded? Is this unfolding a pretense to marriage for most of you or are most simply looking for a stable mate?
How will I know when I’m fixed…even ready to be able to say yes to a date as it seems I bypass that all together? How will i know? I’m pretty sure that i still carry EU tendencies regarding men which explains to me at least why i sought the company of those that i know instead of looking for or putting myself out there for a person I’d have to learn from scratch.
I don’t want to hurt anyone and I think mostly my behavior and toxic relationship addiction reveal past unresolved hurt and decisions like spending my college years laying with guys (not at the same time) with no commitment because of a failed relationship beforehand that got serious too quick. I thought I was fixed from that. Perhaps that explains why now I catch feelings and dangerous jealousy. Dunno. Advice?
Mimih23 You KNOW.
I do not buy the ‘unfolding’ theory. Every poor relationship I have had – had flags right at the first meeting – that I ignored while they ‘unfolded’.
Every good relationship – I knew straight away also but used to think this was boring – not anymore. I am weary of the ‘unfolding’ theory because it encourages us to stay in a relationship when we clearly do not KNOW either way – which is also a flag if I remember clearly? that demands acting on in order to determine whether our needs and values are being met.
Look at Natalies posts on what amber and red flags are. This may help answer your question a little.
Aye, there’s the rub…figuring out what constitutes an “acceptable” ratio of positives to negatives, and taking a dispassionate, realistic assessment of exactly what and just how damaging the negatives actually are, and what — if anything — on the positive side the person is contributing to your life.
After a…well, I WISH I could characterise this as “blissful”, but can’t…five-month break from a monumentally f’d up marriage, I feel clear that I have to make this split more permanent and love my soon-to-be ex from a safe distance since what prevented the break from being blissful was having to spend the entire five months he’s been gone trying to dig myself out of a colossal mess I let this person mire me in: Filth. Debt. Poverty. Deprivation/lack of basic essentials. Clutter to the rafters. My “Plan B career” (or maybe I’m on “F” or “G” or “N” by this point since I have given up on having a financially viable career as an artist) totally stalled/stuck or busted down altogether. That’s not even bringing up his mentally disturbed, drug-addled, abusive behaviour. He unfolded almost completely in the early stages of the relationship, but stupid me with the rosy-tinted goggles….
I’m still trying to figure out why I put up with this shit for so long. I guess the usual “This could just be SO good if he would only stop being so fucked up!” Never gonna happen. Never.
Oh, and the kicker: “…You’re inadvertently giving this drainer the blueprints to eff you over!”
Story. of. my. life.
Spot-on as always, Nat!
Nickster,
You got it. You are spot on. Sometimes it takes practice to realize whoah I am an adult and can say no now without punishment (unless I stick around for abuse or punish myself).
We have to do this on a small scale, too. (And recognize it). I just ended a phone conversation in which my grandmother cruelly berated me after I casually (but truthfully) mentioned one of my father’s inadequacies as a parent and how it hindered me in adulthood. She basically threw a verbal punch below the belt.
She wanted me to apologize and take back the truth. I respectfully ended the conversation. She’s sick & I care for her, but I had to get off the train.
Great!
Dear Nat,
What a terrific & enlightening post as usual. Although I have not been commenting as much as I used to, I still try to read your blogs as often as possible. There is always much to glean from them.
To my BR friends, I hope you are all continuing to live your beautiful & happy arseclown-free lives!
As a short update, I have met a wonderful but much older man who treats me with love, care, trust & respect. It is quite a revelation, and one which I’ve not experienced before.
I can only thank Nat and the BR readers for helping me get to this point. I am truly indebted.
Best wishes to you all,
Love Nel
Nel, good to hear from you and see that you are doing well. I am happy you met someone you like! I do too still read BR and post sometimes. Now I find it’s not about ex EU/AC why I come to BR but to help my self-esteem grow and find some practical advice on how to live my values and my life. Needless to say thanks to BR and its people I have seen a tremendous change in my attitude in the last 8 months. I am still building my self-esteem from the ruins, so this site is like my therapy with a great community. I wish you the best, Nel!
All the best to you too Sofia. It is precisely about building our worth and self-esteem. I am a much more confident person now, aware of her boundaries & how people (men & women alike) should treat me. Big hugs to you too. Nel.
The full package……aaaaahhhhhh.
I’m trying to step back and see it for what it is!!
This guy has been a friend for over 7 years and became closer about 2 years ago when he confided in me about problems in his marriage. He is now divorced, has two children who he completely adores & who’s ex is using them to further ‘control’ him (I know as my ex did the exact same thing), a sick mum and working. He told me about a year ago that he has always liked me and he would like to get to know me but every time we try and arrange to go out (3 occasions now) something happens so he has to cancel. We text daily and often speak on the phone, about his concerns/worries/ex, and I’m beginning to feel tired and worn down by it and the negative impact it is having on me. There’s just no balance.
As I’ve been typing this out I can see what the answer is……..let him be!! He’s obviously not ready or able to be in another relationship.
Moira,
Yup! You’re being used. Can you imagine what it would be like to date this guy!
Let it go!
So I thought we came to an agreement last Thursday that there would be no contact. My ex goes off for a long weekend to take the abusive wife away for her birthday (that he got lined up before he broke up with me – this makes my flesh crawl), gets back to work on Monday, and the first instance we end up on the same teleconference he is instant messaging me telling me he loves me. Yes really.
So we go through the same loop again of me telling him that he can tell me he loves me but without action it means nothing, that I won’t be an option for him to fall back on anymore, that I refuse to have anything to do with him while he’s with her, and that I need no contact. He tells me he’s lost, doesn’t know when life will come back to him (its only been 10 days since the break up!), blah blah blah, but he agrees and we say goodbye. Next thing he sets up something at work that is so complex I need to have a call with him about it today. He just won’t quite let me go, and I am ashamed to say that part of me was even excited that I’d get to have a call with him. I am making myself feel sick just admitting this.
I plan to spend my spare moments this morning reminding myself why he’s no good for me so I can stay strong on the call.
Advice please…when I have this call, do I just stay focused on the work and that’s it, or do I start a conversation about no contact again?
BritG, do you really need a ‘conversation’ about NC? Sounds like it would result in a lot of rationalization, explanation, exhausting talking of word salads esp if this person has broken NC and you are unable to maintain it. The conversation about NC amongst two people at least one of whom is playing games (him) or is needy (both of you?) or confused (both of you?) sounds like a no-win. OR why a ‘conversation’. Say, ‘I will not be contacting you again’ and put the phone down. Or text that and respond to NO TEXTS EMAIL CALLS ever ever ever again. See? As an adult, we dont need to tell toxic people no, we can act out the no, we definitely dont need ‘conversations’ about our desire to say no. Its not a negotiation, you dont need his validation, you dont need his consent, you dont need to explain to him, you dont need him to try to change your mind etc etc.
NC is not convincing the other person to not contact you or to explain to them why you won’t contact them. NC = I will not contact this person or respond when they contact me. That doesnt require a conversation with the very person that you are doing NC with. Frankly, if someone initiated an NC conversation with me, I’d be sort of insulted. And I’m not an AC – I’m okay with seeing flaws in myself, and I’d still be insulted. If someone was not okay with that, an NC conversation would trigger every needy response in them for validation and they would pursue you.
To me the NC conversation sounds like a prolonging of the drama of a toxic relationship. If you are not at the stage where you can take power over your own choices, and if yours was not a relationship where the two persons were able to communicate honestly as adults, then a NC conversation is asking for trouble. Just go NC.
When an ex contacted me last year, I wrote him back a very general vague email [getting his email evoked no feelings in me, just a vague irritation of why he was trying to be in touch – if i had any other stronger feelings I would have ignored his email, I dont owe him a response]. I dont think he was looking to recreate real contact, but I think he was needy for something. Perhaps connection, forgiveness, feeling better about himself if I replied etc. Anyway, he responded to my reply with an even longer email and then i didn’t write back — an exchange of a single, casual email is a courtesy, anything more is a correspondence. One doesnt need to correspond with toxic exes.
Brit,
You discuss nothing other than work.
You really set yourself up, by engaging in that convo yesterday. Remember, HE IS WITH HIS WIFE!
And, what is this ‘ I refuse to have anything to do with him while he’s with her,” What is this? You should be done with him, but you’re clearly telling him the door is still open. Aren’t you tired of being the FBG?
BritG,
You are making this situation more complicated than it has to be. You talk as if you have no control and infact you do. You don’t need to talk to him to tell him you are going no contact, just go no contact! Unless it is work related, do not talk to him. If you have to talk to him about work, let him know that you don’t want to talk about anything personal. He will eventually get the hint. The only reason he is calling is because you are being receptive and he knows.
Also, stop calling his wife abusive. You don’t know her and I bet if you talk to her she probably has a whole other story to tell! It is very disrepectful to call her names when you don’t know her personally.
Annabel,
Do not meet him or respond. It is all about his ego and has nothing to do with you. He is testing you to see how much you’ll put up with. These unavailables justify using us by telling themselves they’re just meeting their needs. It’s not even about that really. It’s just about their egos and inability to cultivate emotional intelligence. I no doubt believe you care about this man and did very much, but we must remember that the people we date are entirely separate entities. That is why similar values are so important. He doesn’t value honesty enough or as much as you do and he doesn’t care enough or he wouldn’t have selfishly dated you or anyone whilst not over his ex.
No contact.
Well I just feel so crap and a big disappointment to myself and the sisterhood. Meeting was cancelled but ended up talking anyway, very very confusing as always because the words coming from his mouth, and the tears don’t match the actions. Like why finish with me if that’s how he feels about me? Somehow too he always makes me feel like he can’t help it because he’s broken and then I feel sorry for him and bad about it and like I want to help him. All very unhealthy and upsetting.
What can I say? I’m struggling very badly. I know deep down I’m done and that the situation was making me unhappy, but I still seem to need to go back and torture myself some more. I know I’m delaying and avoiding the proper grief. Question is when will that really come and how can I get to it and get on with grieving? I’m still waiting for it to properly hit me. Or have I been in such a sorry state for months that I am grieving but it’s a happier place than I was in?
Sorry ex-FBGs for letting the side down, I promise I’ll try harder 🙁
BritG
As you said it’s only been 10 days since the break up, please please give yourself a break and don’t be so hard on yourself. This is where you have to just treat yourself gently, the grieving process doesn’t hit straight away, especially if he won’t leave you alone..it takes time, take as much time as you need, don’t rush it just because you think it should be a faster process.
It’s okay BritG,
I know its hard, we’ve all been there, but the problem is you are thinking too much. You know how I got over the EUM, I saw him for who he was!! I stop lying to myself. I remembered all the horrible things he did and that help me cement my decision. So when he came around acting all nice and sweet, I remembered all the mean things he did and said to me. I took off the blinders and saw him for what he was a jerk! Even after he called me a year later trying the same old crap, I kept this same mindset. The feeling will pass, but you have to be honest with yourself about who he is.
Stephanie,
You know I sealed all the bad stuff about him up in a box and decided not to look at it so I could stand to stay with him. Really. I actually remember saying to him about something never to tell me anything about it because to me it was so bad I couldn’t be near him if I knew about it. Nothing illegal I should add, just deeply immoral and boundary busting.
The lid on the box is open a crack now and the bad stuff is leaking out and I am starting to remember just how bad some of the things he did were. The trouble is the the huge shame I feel at myself for tolerating those things, I actually feel physically sick by some of it. Its like I can’t yet bear to take the lid off the box and have all his badness hit me, because I would have to fully face how complicit I was. Just the bit of shame I am feeling right now is pretty crippling. I guess with a bit of time I will strengthen and be able to face more of it. Right now its a balancing act of facing enough to realise how he is no good for me, but being kind enough to myself so that I don’t end up totally broken and weakened and open to his bs again. Its tough.
I hear you Brit.
Everyone on here has struggled. All the people giving you advice, good or bad, including myself – struggled/****ed up – perhaps not the exact details you have described but struggled all the same.
You have come to the right place.
Now listen to what they are reflecting back to you – WITHOUT – using it to beat yourself up. Use it as a strength. Listen to the angel inside to get yourself off this train (to coin a few phrases). Remember that posters panic or anxiety reflects not only what you are telling them about yourself and your situation but also the terrible experiences that they have lived through and project onto your experience, in an effort to connect with you and help you. They mean you well. They are trying to help you, even if we don’t.
You want to sort this out or you wouldn’t have found this site in the first place – WELL DONE – now use that power that got you here – to help yourself. After what you have been through do not expect to be perfect overnight. Life is a process. Some you win some you lose but here you will learn.
You are in control, no one else. Now, what are you going to choose for yourself? More misery or a life of love for yourself? I suggest start reading what Natalie says about Non Contact in the older posts – again – if you have read them before. You will get there and it will be great.
And for all the posters worried about the wife. You and I both know – She knows! – even if she is in denial – she is actively choosing NOT to see who this person is and when she wants to accept help for herself – she will find it – just as Brit and all of us did for each of our relationship issues.
The person, Brit, you are hurting the most at the moment IS yourself – now – how about changing that and how wonderful it would be for your life to have love for real?
Just as the wife KNOWS the hubby is cheating – through her extra spidey sense (thanks Natalie) – even if it is hidden (as you think) at work – she stills knows – just as he KNOWS when you have left the relationship and choose yourself.
We change how we behave, with allowing others to influence how we feel about ourselves and this sends the strongest spidey signals ever, we either choose to listen to our own (angel) – or block it out – until we are ready to help ourselves out.
Come on Brit cross from the dark side of life. Its really not worth it – believe it is better than this.
BritG, you dont have to try harder, you have to let go. I would suggest something simple for no contact – identify the feeling of anxiety vs. happiness. Start by writing every day the times you felt anxious and why. So you can identify what your own feelings are – then start doing it in the moment, just say to yourself ‘now i feel anxious’. Next time you are anxious just walk away from that moment, even if it is with a lie (you dont have to give anyone the ultimate kiss off of NC if its too hard) — just recognize your own bad feelings, and do something good for yourself, and walk away at that moment. Anxiety = ‘oops, sorry I have to go, my cat is calling me’. You dont have to tell the other person what about them is causing this. Just say ‘oops, my train is here’, oops my boss is here, oops I have work to do. Disengage. THIS you can do, you know it. Its not about gaining some once-and-for-all strength, its about choosing you, and choosing no-drama on a daily moment by moment basis. To choose no-drama you have to KNOW what drama feels like – so you have to learn to identify your emotions and then act on them. This conversation with him = drama.
When you say that his words/tears dont match his actions = word salad = oooh i get a stomach ache just thinking of how many years i spent with men that did word salad (oh i’m in a bad place, i dont know what happiness is so i can’t listen to you try to explain why our relationship needs work, oh i lied to avoid confrontation – of course it was all word salad on my side too, all need, desperation, insecurity, an inauthentic relationship where two decent people or two ACs or one AC and one enabler are getting their inauthentic needs met).
If you can identify anxiety, then also start identifying happiness. Do more of what makes you happy. [this is all super hard to do, its taken me years, and even now i can explain it better than I can do it. BUT mean girls have fallen out of my life (like Oona said, people respond to your strength), I cut through b.s. like a hot knife through butter, and I dont even have to call people out on it – i just know its b.s. and I make my choices based on that, and the small stuff doesnt upset me anymore, if someone doesnt return my email etc – whatever I dont care.
My whole time with him has been 90% anxiety, I know anxiety. I know that the three days I had no contact with him in the last week were the least anxious days I’ve had in a very long time. That tells me all I need to know about that relationship doesn’t it?
Yes. Well done BritG. Stay on BR in any wobble moments till you are free of them. Displacement activities really work as Suki describes above.
So far as “letting down the sisterhood” goes – do this for yourself Brit – not for us.
You are not ready or willing to let go of the drama. You don’t have to apologize to us for that. You’re still hooked on it and you will keep him in your life until YOU get tired of the pain and disappointments and crying.
Stay here at BR and read. It is eye-opening to see the similarities of all the various ACs we encounter – you’ll start to see ACs are not special or unique. They all use the same playbook. You’ll start to see they are users, maybe charming users, but users nonetheless. You’ll start to understand that the AC does not change, will always do what is in the ACs best interest, and will smile in your face while doing it. You’ll eventually start to realize you’ve been existing on crumbs and thinking it is a whole loaf – that’s an analogy that always puts me right.
But right now, you’re hooked on him and the “chase”. They say we fall in love with people that we feel are just a little bit out of our league. You won’t start to fall out of love with him until you start to see yourself as capable of being with someone who treats you better.
Brit,
Don’t apologize to us, but yourself.
Isn’t nine months enough! You want to waste more time and energy on this clown? You have the power to move on, but you have to choose it.
Why do you feel sorry for him? He has chosen to return to his wife. You should be pissed, not believing the nonsense he is telling you! If he were being sincere, he would be with you. Period! Please don’t turn into the OW.
Afraid to say I have been the OW for the whole time. Sorry if I wasn’t clear, he never left his wife ever, just partially checked out the marriage to toy with me. I’d basically blown smoke up his bum enough for him to believe he could now stand alone and change his wife into something he wanted her to be, so he left me to go it alone with that. I guess I pity him, rather than feel sorry for him because he believes he can change his wife. I know you can’t change someone else I could have changed him into someone that wanted to be with me. All futile and misdirected that type of effort, I have learned the hard way.
He is totally insincere, though I actually don’t think he believes he is. I think he thinks he gives 100%, its just his 100% looks like 10% of a what healthy person gives.
I’m better off out, I know that, its just a tough journey to embark on.
“From Oona – Mimih23 You KNOW.
I do not buy the ‘unfolding’ theory. Every poor relationship I have had – had flags right at the first meeting – that I ignored while they ‘unfolded’.
Every good relationship – I knew straight away also but used to think this was boring – not anymore. I am weary of the ‘unfolding’ theory because it encourages us to stay in a relationship when we clearly do not KNOW either way – which is also a flag if I remember clearly? that demands acting on in order to determine whether our needs and values are being met.
Look at Natalies posts on what amber and red flags are. This may help answer your question a little.”
There should be a like button. Petition for like buttons!!!!!! Like, like, like, like!!!!!
All the posters here are – like – including the posters asking questions. The great thing is there are so many of us contributing to Natailie’s posting and we can fully realise we are not alone anymore. Such a beautiful thing to connect with someone. Thank you mimih23 I’m glad you liked it.
Brit, I am in a very similar situation to you at the moment, so please know you’re not alone. I’m embarrassed to say I became involved with a MM awhile ago, and have since come to my senses. I’ve had the no contact conversation with him several times. More than several! I don’t know why I feel I need permission to go NC!
Problem is, after a few days of silence I start to feel better. I have a hard time carrying anger around with me, and my selective memory starts to forget all the crud I’ve put up with, and how many times I’ve tried to extract myself from the situation.
He’ll then end up writing me again – something “innocent” or nice or totally irrelevant (“stay warm today” or “I got a haircut!”), and with my anger gone, I respond and the whole cycle starts anew!
How does one keep NC when the anger that keeps you NC starts to go away? And good lord, I know he’s bad news. As someone on here pointed out, it’d be embarrassing to have someone go NC on you! If someone did that to me, I’d have pride enough to stay away! Not this guy.
See how this women solved her problem, by cutting all possible contact:
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/despite-good-points-we-deal-with-the-consequences-of-people-coming-as-full-packages/comment-page-1/#comment-523342
SpecialKD12,
Its very hard, especially when talking with them is so easy. For me it started as an emotional affair, so talking and sharing was always right at the core of the relationship.
I too have always had a problem holding into anger, in fact getting angry at all used to be very difficult for me, I would move straight into upset. I guess holding onto anger for too long is not good either, but it would be good to hold onto it for long enough to stop ourselves from falling back into the cycle.
Being angry (in fact being anything but compliant and being “seen and not heard”) was definitely frowned upon when I growing up so I can see why I have issues with it, or any other emotion I might dare to express.
I do wonder though whether trying to use anger to keep us away from them is the wrong approach, because being angry is something you direct at them, whereas we should be directing our focus at ourselves? Any readers with any thoughts (apart from the obvious that I think too much ;))?
Brit, you’re absolutely right that staying angry just keeps the focus on them, when in reality the only person we should be focusing on is ourselves!
And I don’t mean that in a blindly selfish way! I think many of us on here are quite the opposite of selfish. We see the best in people, we bend of backwards to accommodate, all to the detriment of how we feel inside.
I initially got involved with this EUMM because I was too trusting, too gullible, and sympathized with his claims of being “attention-starved x10” by wife. A big part of me doesn’t believe it, but another part of me feels bad. Almost sees him as a lost little boy and I continue to sympathize. It’s like I can’t let go of the good I saw in him. We talked and shared a lot as well, so the emotional habit is there. I feel awful about ignoring, and so it has continued. Even though it makes ME feel awful to be in contact.
I’ve blocked him everywhere except my email, which doesn’t have a blocking feature. To change my address would be an administrative nightmare. I filter him to “Trash”…but then I check the Trash folder!
It’s embarrassing and I’m ashamed by my lack of self control there. In a way, I’m no better than he is because of it! That said, I’m lightyears ahead of where I was last year thanks to this site, Natalie, and this wonderful community.
It’s time for both of us to respect the beautiful women we are inside. Get strong – it sounds like you are well on your way, and it’s inspiring to me! Keep taking those walks in the fresh air – I have your back, and so does everyone else here!
(PS – I respectfully submit that “my” guy may be an AC Darwin award winner as well!)
SpecialKD12,
Ah they get you with the little lost boy bit don’t they? I even get told he is lost, and that nothing has made him feel happy since he left me, and tears…yet where is he? Oh yes, not with me, he left me!!!
I have a situation where its work email, so it might be something I have to attend to, so I don’t get the luxury of deleting without reading. Yesterday I read, then deleted, and did the job without responding as I normally would. That felt good. Only later something didn’t work out with it so then I had to mail him back – and he was straight back to me, 10 seconds, like flies on shit. For a few minutes it felt good that he got back to me so quickly, the validation, but then it all just turned folded into pain and anxiety because its crumbs not loaf.
I am thankful that the project we are working on together finishes at the end of this week, then there will be no need for me to read the mail anymore. I really really need NC, just wish he would respect it because I find it hard to respect myself enough to just ignore right now, and it hurts to ignore. More walks in the fresh air I think, yesterday’s walk did help centre myself again.
I’m sorry, but cheating is extremely selfish! Your behavior is no different than his. There is much demonization of the people your are cheating with – rightly so – but you’re no different than they are. You actively choose to get involved with married people.
You really need to think about how your actions are affecting others lives. This behavior impacts others (kids and wives) for a lifetime, where they lose the ability to trust, forever.
SpecialKD12,
It’s okay too not be angry that’s good for you because you don’t want to walk around bitter. The key is to not forget about who this person is. Just because you are not angry doesn’t mean he is a great guy. Remember he is a lying, cheating jerk and let that be the reason you let go, not because you are angry.
It is not ok to not acknowledge your true feelings whether that is anger or what ever feeling you may be experiencing. A healthy person feels anger, uses it and all the emotional tools in their box to alert them to what they need to do to protect and nourish themselves – I was also taught that my anger was a bad thing by people who had a vested interest in me suppressing it – only it turns out I wasn’t actually angry enough in reality.
You don’t even open the text or the email in the first place – you delete straight away. If you can see who is calling you do not pick up phone calls. You change their names on your mobiles to something like stinking rat with rabbies or Not Real. If you can see who is knocking on the door you do not answer. You do not answer the door for a while , if you can’t see through the door and no one has made an appointment with you. If they come up to you in the street, a brief, ‘I’m sure you are amazing but I’m not interested’ before they get to say anything and then keep your mouth shut and walk away. Show you mean what you say and it will stop eventually. It’s simple – only you’ve got to really want to get off the train that’s careering off the tracks and currently if you haven’t got non contact and you are opening texts, emails etc…you are still looking for validation from someone who has treated you like crap.
Oona, your last sentence says it all. I’m still looking for validation. By feeling bad about NC and continuing to open messages, I’m looking for validation that I’m not a “mean” person for shutting him out. And that maybe, somewhere, the genuine guy I always thought he was will magically appear.
Your no-nonsense posts are so helpful. Thank you.
You need to understand why you are looking for validation from men who will never give it to you BEFORE having another relationship with anyone. This is truely dangerous not only to others but also to yourself.
Validation does not come from external sources – it comes from an internal source. Why are you letting yourself down? – is what you need to get to. It may be time for you to get yourself some real help – a good counsellor, therapist or psycologist (can’t spell) may help because these issues can be buried deep and until you go there – you will just repeat, repeat, repeat -the pain, wasting your life and hurting others in the process.
Hi all,
I’m hoping to get an opinion on a situation that I’m in. I’ve been dating a woman for the past 4 months. We had a great summer together and communication was great. We both work shift work and also upgrading our education. I am 35 and she is 34. She works as a nurse so she works a lot of 12 hour days and then comes home to study. The last time we were able to meet up was the middle of September for dinner. Everything was great that night as usual. After that we weren’t able to get together due to her schedule and she was starting to feel burnt out. I kept trying to make plans to meet up even if it was for an hour but we couldn’t figure anything out. I know during that time I may have came off a little needy but it was only because I wanted to see her. I was very understanding and supportive of her life.
The last time we spoke was now almost two weeks ago. I haven’t heard anything from her and she just disappeared. I know our last conversation she seemed a bit off. I’ve only called twice in the last 2 weeks and texted a couple times just asking to let me know if she is alright. I haven’t sent a message since last week. I’m now just trying to give her space and hoping she will contact me.
I know it’s been a short relationship but I felt like we have a lot of potential for the future. Any advice on what I should do next would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Dale
Dale, many possibilities. Move on, find someone with more time – but if you dont have time either, then maybe wait to date till you feel more settled? You need social life, so find friends, not dates that you see once a month. Once a month is not dating. Move on. Look for people at work. NEXT – your relationships seems a bit… meh? as in, you dont meet, there are no texts, she doesnt reply to your calls. This is not even a friendship. Call your friends, call your family, go out with your work and school buddies. Inject some excitement into your life, not the second-guessing type of dating drama but real excitement (hiking? dancing? movies? drinks with friends? meet ups?).
What you should do next? Definitely do not call her or text her. SHe is either so busy that she can’t even text or not interested? No one is that busy, she’s not a prime minister.
If she isn’t interested, its not about you, she’s just not interested – not everyone will click with us.
If she contacts you – you dont need a crumby relationship (even if she is at heart a nice person that had the one month flu). Tell her you need someone that has more time and more investment. Be classy and kind and move on. Good luck.
Dale,
You sound like a very caring, open-hearted man. Unfortunately, it sounds like you’re banking too much on the “potential” of her and the relationship. I would suggest that you forget about her (she’s EU) and move on. There are plenty of women out there who would truly appreciate the gifts you have to share. Being “too busy” is never an excuse for not being present in a relationship. And if she doesn’t have the courtesy to respond to a simple message inquiring about HER well-being, it’s really time to end things. She’s not worth your time and energy. For whatever reason she is not ready to be a partner with you. Never settle for crumbs from people. You deserve way better.
Dale, time to step back, stop pursuing. Let your next date with her be one that she initiates. In the meantime, no more obsessing over the “what ifs”….start doing other activities and you’ll start feeling better about life in general.
A week ago I threw a pity party for myself, I felt so lonely and started thinking about contacting AC. I posted here and someone suggested “meetups”……to which my first reaction was “I AM DOING MEETUPS. I’M STILL LONELY!”
I attended a comedy show with my parents last Friday…which brought back childhood angst remembering my referee role for them…and when I came home Friday night I signed on to Meetup and looked for a generic group to do things with in my area…and the first result was a suburban group of 17 attending a food festival on Saturday – a festival I had some interest in. So I clicked “Yes I will attend” and Saturday I went. Logistically it was not easy to locate the group, but I did spot one of the members, went over to him and introduced myself, and for two hours I spent time exploring the various food offerings with him and his two female buds. No romance, no happily-ever-after connections, but a nice amiable couple of hours. I thought I’d later feel sad about being a stranger and spending time with strangers….but to my surprise, my mood was uplifted by that outing. I don’t have any plans to do more things with that group…but being out, doing something new with other people, gave me a very positive mental adjustment.
Dale
If someone wants to be with you, they MAKE the time to do so. I am a prof, run a farm solo, cut my own firewood, and STILL make time to be with those I feel matter to me. I also text/call when I cannot be around and explain when things get really hectic, not just disappear.
Special,
Why aren’t you blocking this guy?
Thanks to all of you so much for the support you have given me in your responses, every one has really resonated with me and has been a great help. I just can’t believe you have all been so kind that you have taken time to respond to me, and I am so grateful. Wow, just reading back this last statement shows how low my self esteem is, that I wouldn’t normally think I was worthy of any attention, shows how I could be a prime target for EUMs and ACs.
Great news is this morning I woke up and thought “How dare he contact me like that? How dare he fill me with bs about loving me and that the only thing he is certain of in his life at the moment is that he loves me.” OK, so I was thinking about him, but not in a positive way which is a start.
I’m afraid he has emailed me this morning already (like must have been the first minute he picked up his phone) to ask me something work related which was totally unnecessary, but I’m glad to say I’ve just deleted it and will not be responding. Feels scary to do it, but I’m going to go for a brisk walk in the fresh air and think of something else.
So glad for all your help.
BritG…yes, no contact is uncomfortable and will drive you nuts in the beginning, but it is the ONLY way to go when you need to move on and get yourself and your life back.
I’ve been 2 months of NC with my “soon to be” ex husband. The first month I got fed up with his nasty emails, no calls, no showing up in person to make amends. And yes, it hasn’t been easy but after nearly 4 years of putting up with his extreme NPD, I had to end the drama, pain and damaging fallout I had allowed in my life. He didn’t have the guts to initiate divorce, but I did. It was a total wake-up call for him…so be it. He had plenty of chances to do therapy with me but always found reasons why therapy doesn’t work…typical NPD response.
So, slam that door shut very tightly so you won’t be tempted to open it even a crack. The only contact I will have with my ex is that final email to say: “The divorce is final.” That’s it, nothing more will be said and I won’t respond to anything he may have to say. Has it been hard…oh yes. But it has given me the time to heal the wounds and keep doing the things that make ME happy without worrying about him and what he’s doing/not doing.
Good luck and stay strong!! You can do it!!
YESSSSSSSSS!!!!!!! WAY TO GO BRITG!!!Some fresh air! Good luck lady.
Brit,
All you need to know, is that he is a married man. Off Limits!!!
There will never be a future, as he has chosen his family!
Brit G,
Good for you!! It is very empowering to take back your control and realize you deserve to be happy! Believe me when I tell you from experience, it will get better as long as you keep putting yourself first and not let anybody come in and out of your life only to cause confusion. Take that walk girl!! LOL and get some fresh air and remember that everyday its get better!!
Dale,
I would let this one go! At a minimum she appears distracted and cannot give you the attention you deserve. I know you think there is potential, but if this person doesn’t talk to you, how can there be growth! You are not compatible. No matter how great your energy may seem, she is focused elsewhere. It is best to flush this one! Sorry.
Oona, I think the wife knew about the affair on some level as it reflects her own upbringing. Then of course she commits abuse (I am very certain of this) and he tolerates it, and there were elements in his upbringing reflecting that. So two codependents putting each other through the cycle. The fact I got caught up in that is very worrying, where the hell did my boundaries go?
Anyone know if there is a biggest AC incident award out there (bit like the Darwin awards), because I have some entries to make?
Brit,
You keep insisting his wife is abusive, even though you have no actual evidence of this at all. Did you ever consider he planned the things he said that would lead you to believe this? To manipulate you into being sympathetic to him, so he could get what he wants from you? Because that is not only possible, it’s quite likely.
But say for the sake of argument, his wife is an abuser. What kind of POS man would let his children be abused by their mother?
He should be working on divorcing her and gaining full custody so they don’t have to suffer a lifetime of damage that child abuse will cause them.
Instead, the only thing this POS is concerned about is himself and what’s best for his dick. He’s cheating on his wife (the woman he CHOSE to marry) with you and probably others. That’s time he should be spending caring for his children anyway, not pursuing sex with women who aren’t his wife. And not only is he cheating on her, he’s smearing her name in the process!
He is a selfish pr!ck for lying about the abuse (likely), or attending to his desires to wh-re around and letting his kids suffer abuse that will damage them forever no matter what kind it is.
Child abuse is very serious and if you truly believe she is being abusive as you keep claiming, you are morally and legally bound to report her to the authorities. If you don’t do that, and yet keep coming on here to smear her name like the POS does in his spare time, what does that say about you?
Crystal,
Whoa, hang on, back up…the abuse is directed at him.
He told me a story last week about how they parent the kids and to me it sounded abusive – bear in mind he has me sensitized to this kind of thing. Due to my long sleepless nights over this I’ve done some research in the last couple of days and it looks like something that lots of others do without batting an eyelid, so that might just a grey area/cultural difference. I am a mother myself and would do anything I could to stop a child being hurt in any way if I was certain. I might be a lot of bad things right now but I am not someone who would enable abuse of a child.
What I tried to get him to understand is that witnessing abuse between parents is also very damaging for them, but he seemed to think ‘giving her a chance to change’ is a better option than him leaving and trying to get custody.
If he is leaving his kids to witness this he is an AC, if he is lying about the whole thing he is a AC. He is just an AC period…
Brit,
I remember a former poster who was involved with a politician. For a long time, she validated her involvement, due to the wife’s behavior.
She would tell numerous stories about the wife cheating with other women, and a lot of other bad behavior to justify the affair. Well, in the end, she finally realized that the stories were untrue, and left this creep.
You do not know if these stories are true, or not. The only thing that is important, is that he is married, and wants to stay with his wife and child.
I have a problem with you demonizing this woman, but I guess that made it easier to carry on an affair with a married man.
This situation is wrong, and you need to back away from this man, and family. The effect of a child finding out about an affair is lifelong. Don’t continue to be a part of this, and think about others that are involved.
Britg
Your boundaries went the moment you focused on ‘their’ problems and not your own and yes it is very worrying because it is no way to love and protect yourself – which is fundamentally what you need BEFORE loving anyone else.
He is an adult and more able than you to sort his OWN problems out – if he wants to – he is showing he either doesn’t want to or he perceives there isn’t actually a problem in the first place.
You are NOT best placed to KNOW or tell what his problems are or are not (that includes us) – as we don’t ever walk in others shoes for real. The only person whose problems you KNOW for real are your own.
Refocus on what YOUR problems are – list them first – all of them – and put a plan together of what to do to deal with YOUR problems.
This is honesty time BRITG – what you tell us doesn’t make a shade of difference – until you are honest with yourself – because you KNOW the truth – and that includes the good in you, as well as the not so good.
Hi all,
Thank you all for posting your great stories and to Natalie for this amazingly helpful and awesome site!! You have no idea how helpful it has been to me over the past year.
6 years ago I fell in love with an AC. I didn’t know it at the time but he turned out to be such a lemon. I ended my marriage because of him and he turned horrible on me. I fell apart and was so pathetic towards him. So embarrassing for such a long time but I finally got over it. After a TON of hard emotional work.
Fast forward to 2 years ago and I met another amazing guy. He seemed so great and seemed to really love me. But I don’t think he was used to being with women who are his equals.. He definitely has a narcissistic harem following him around. I should have known this was a red flag, but I didn’t want to see it. I was so in love!
Anyways, he broke things off with me in the spring. I was so confused and hurt. He started looking for things to be mad at me about or criticize me for, though they were a bunch of hot air. Then of course I realized it was because he had met someone else. I was so upset! She is younger and extremely beautiful. 🙁
But thanks to this site, I took it like an effing champ! I am so proud of myself and now after months of silently and secretly hurtin and feeling sad, I am suddenly over it. I feel like I’ve taken my power back, without even telling him. I’ve just decided that he is an idiot and that I’m going to have a good life regardless.
Good riddance! I am so happy to move forward without this mean ands narcissistic idiot in my life!!
I am really please for you hannah in the end result. Brilliant. Good luck to you.
Hannah,
Good for you!
Brit
Only focus on your own co dependent behavior – feeling for this idiot that has been stringing you along. You can change your behavior, not theirs.
Allison, Believe me I know two wrongs don’t make a right. The affair is done, it’s not something I want to be a part of. I never wanted to be, I was in a bad place, still am, and I made some bad decisions. I’m not trying to demonise the wife to justify my actions, just spilling out all the crazy stuff that is flying through my head as I try to get through this time, and trying to make sense of everything that has happened. I recognise my part, I know I’m no angel, I place plenty of judgement on myself.
Brit,
Im glad you’re done. For everyone’s sake.
It’s just difficult to read any sympathy for the MM because it seems to excuse the behavior. He could have chosen to receive counseling, or remove himself from the marriage, not cheat. Another thing that seems odd, is if she is so abusive, I am surprised he would not be fearful for her to find out that he was cheating. Something does not add up!
Dale,
I have a friend who moved to another city to take a full time job as a first year teacher. The last time I was really upset & struggling she was here (without my asking) having dinner with me a few days later on a week night. What I’m getting at is people make time for exactly what they want. Even if (I really hope not) she has experienced some kind of emergency/crisis, she is still unavailable and you need to move on.
It’s okay. There will be other opportunities. Trust me on that one. Be patient with yourself.
the bit that really stands out for me is ”People come as a full package … everything else comes part and parcel…They can’t dispose of their past, their fears, motivations, beliefs, habits..just to give us the selected highlights…who they truly are is self-evident as they unfold”
I think the first thing to to keep this top of mind…just like a job interview when you see a candidate at their very best, the beginning of a relationship is in many ways the very best of a person. Certainly no flaws will be evident. The key is to decide do you love the person IN SPITE of the flaws when they appear, because of them (eek!) or by ignoring them (double eek)
Love a person for who they are, sure, but only if they love you for who you are too.
Hello! I’m fairly new to the site, and WOW! What an eye opener.
I relate to most of the things from this article… thankfully, things I *used* to do in relationships. I am not attracted to the fixer uppers anymore. Woohoo!!!
Anywho, I have been dating a really wonderful man for three months now. In the beginning, I knew he smoked weed, but he said he was ready to quit. Fed me full of Bible verses about ‘putting away childish things’ and becoming a man and blah blah blah. He said he was ready to do the things necessary for a serious relationship.
I hate weed. Hate, hate, hate it. I hate what it does to people emotionally and physically. I hate that it is a HUGE demotivator. Lack of ambition and motivation are basically the least attractive things to me. (To all of us, right???) But for some unknown reason, I thought I could handle the fact that he smokes. He is truly Ah-mazing to me in every way. I have never met a more kind, smart, level man who makes me talk about the hard things that I don’t like talking about, makes me want to be a better mother, better everything. He is PART of my life. Cooks dinner wtih me every night, enjoys my children with me. Encourages me in my career, my hopes, dreams, etc. It feels like an honest to goodness family unit.
But here I am, thinking the weed thing is the dog-shit-in-the-brownies trait that I can’t accept. In every relationship I’ve been in, these things magically appear around three months in. Every. Goddamn. Time. What I wonder is if I am trying to find fault so that I may sabotage a perfect relationship after three months like I always do? (Although none of the previous assclowns were anywhere NEAR right for me..) Why can’t I love him as a person?
Admittedly, the weed keeps him at a job that pays near nothing (which he complains about) and that pisses me off. He refuses to find something better, because he can be high all day at work and no one cares. He doesn’t care that he lives on crumbs.
What do I do? I really thought that the old habits had died. Besides attracting idiots and then being unable to kick them to the curb until I was crazy and drained, I really haven’t looked for traits to ‘fix’ in others for a long time. I don’t ask people to change. I state my opinions and values, and if they think they have what it takes to be with me, I date them. Until I can’t stand them anymore, that is. But this one is different. I’m not ‘sick of him’ per say. I love him. I just wish I was able to love him for all the good things he brings into my life, instead of the apathy in his. I need to quantify this!!
FireballJen It’s only been 3 months. You will begin to see the character traits shine through that you dislike from the weed he smokes. Already, being unmotivated to change his job which shows his lack of ambition is in direct contrast to what you value. Either you will get sick of this, or he will quit his bad habit. Time will tell (my money is on you!)