Living a life that respects you and follows the path of the values you claim to have means you shouldn’t be trying to ‘strike up a deal’ with any ‘ole person. Unfortunately, this is what many people are attempting to do with dating. Before you’ve even sussed out the person, you’ve already put yourself under pressure that you’ve got to close the deal! But you don’t know the deal; not enough has happened to indicate the deal possibilities.
Dating is a discovery phase for you both to find out the facts about one another and determine whether you can strike up a mutually beneficial co-piloted relationship.
Note: I don’t factor casual relationships (oxymoron alert) into the discovery phase. If an involvement has already been defined as ‘casual’, whoop, there it is; there’s no discovery.
Someone claiming they’re dating but they’re doing it with the purpose of lining someone up for a shag, an ego stroke and a shoulder to lean on is shady. They’re calling it ‘dating’ to get their foot through the door like one of those dodgy salespeople. Imagine they said they would sell you a busted-up vacuum cleaner or insurance you don’t need. Um, you wouldn’t let them in. It’s easier to market their availability as something better and then leave it to you to either discover the truth when they’re long gone or be like, “Oops, I did it again. Let’s just go with the flow/my fish died/I’m not ready for a relationship.”
If you date without a person-shaped void, with your eyes and ears open and your feet in reality, it makes you aware of who they are.
It stops it from being about what they can give you to ‘make’ you whole. You’ll begin to discover the facts about them (and they you). Part of this is recognising what the facts mean, even if it signals the end. Sometimes, in your eagerness to be in a ‘deal’, you forget a few things:
- Somebody asking for your number is an expression of interest, not entering them into a contract for a relationship or date.
- Going on a date or few is an expression of initial interest. However, it’s also not representative of them entering into a contract for a relationship.
- Having sex or being sexually intimate isn’t an ‘action contract’ that locks you both into a relationship. Unless you’ve both verbally agreed on it, it’s not even an automatic precursor to exclusivity.
Experience has taught me that whether it’s in personal or business relationships, many people will talk the talk and appear to be walking the walk in the run-up to closing and confirming the deal. Then, when it comes to putting their proverbial money where their mouth is, they disappear, raise ‘sudden’ objections’, or withdraw what they’ve been offering and leave you with an inferior replacement deal.
Having self-esteem, which includes your boundaries and values, plus being knowledgeable about code amber and red behaviour, helps you work out your deal breakers, the things you cannot accept and overlook that will render your relationship over.
Dating is like courting each other to strike a deal.
Some of you are trying to strike a relationship deal without due diligence.
Some of you think you’re doing due diligence. However, you are looking at the wrong things and then wondering why you’re not in the right relationship. Good sense of humour, a shared love of bungee jumping and sleeping at a 17-degree angle and whatever else – no indication of values, or at least not those fundamental to you.
Ultimately, someone’s character will make or break their participation in a relationship with you.
Some of you are trying to strike a relationship deal by signing on the dotted line with people not out of contract on their previous deal.
Some people are courting a few deals and avoiding signing any.
Hell, some have no interest in or capacity to strike a relationship deal.
Some of you are trying to strike a relationship deal with someone who wants to be a silent partner. Relationship deals, though, can only be made with joint stakeholders putting in 100:100 effort.
Some of you are trying to strike a relationship deal with everyone you date, which is like throwing crap at a wall and hoping it’ll stick. Or like those companies that are sold for £1 with a view that the buyers will take on the debt, fix the problems, and turn them around. Yes, I’m looking at you Renovators.
In fantasy La La Land, some of you are trying to strike a relationship deal from a sandcastle in the sky.
You cannot strike a deal with everyone; you’re just not that desperate. When you indiscriminately attempt to strike dating deals or get into bed with shady partners, you’re eroding your own value in the process.
Before committing to the idea of being in a long-term relationship with someone, maintain the commitment you should have to yourself that requires you to act in your best interests. Always. Then, commit to using the dating phase to evaluate the potential of moving into a relationship while enjoying yourself. Did you know you can date and even have sex without losing your mind, yourself, and your ability to judge a situation? That said, if you’re the type of person who can’t mix sex with getting to know someone, it’s best not to ‘get down’ until you can.
Remember, dating doesn’t automatically sign you into a relationship deal, a mentality, incidentally, that many people who don’t value themselves enough seem to have.
It’s like (and this is mainly for the ladies), “Jaysus, someone’s giving me the time of day! I should want a relationship with them just because. This could be my last chance saloon. Right, I’m in! They’re interested in me, so I’m gonna draw up some papers. Either way, this is a done deal.” Say what?
You get to choose, too, and you can walk away. When I listen to people talk about their dating angst, often with people they’ve known a hot minute, they sound like they’re shackled for all eternity to what, in essence, are strangers. Dating isn’t a hostage situation! It’s a discovery situation, mutual discovery at that. To treat it as anything else is to act like they’re automatically OK for a relationship deal regardless, it’s just you that has to prove yourself, which is bullshit.
Even credit card companies do a bit of homework before pre-approving you for a card. I’d like to think you’d put far more effort into choosing a potential relationship partner.
Why are you so committed to something that’s not even a relationship?
Dating certainly isn’t easy, but it’s certainly easier when you remove the pressure of trying to make every date work out, and only try to move forward with the ones that show some actual promise. Relationships have the potential to go through five stages. Dating is stage 1. When you try to strike a relationship deal at stage 0 or 1 without due diligence, you’re trying to skip to 2 and beyond. Slow your roll so you stop overriding your (and possibly their) boundaries.
Not every person you date has the potential for the relationship you envision. When you’re already acting attached, it begs the question of whether you do this with everyone. You might argue that you do it because they’re so special. But over-investing in people you hardly know with your betting on potential goggles and even ditching your own life for them sends the wrong message. You’re just not that desperate.
Dating is a discovery phase. You can walk away at any time. Equally, you have the power to opt into what you want. Own your power and use it wisely. Stop walking around with a handy contract in your pocket, ready to hand out to the next person who shows you a whiff of interest.
Your thoughts?
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Oh boy, this WAS me! Last year I actually made a concious decision to find a partner as I felt ready and was bored of being on my own for the previous year. I decided to go on line as everyone kept telling me it was worth a try. Within a week I met someone that seemed so right for me, handsome, successful, lived only 45 minutes away, same taste in music etc etc. If only I had taken the time to discover the real person I was dating. I actually thought this guy was a gift from God (I’m serious) because he was just so polite and affectionate. Rather than bore you all with the rest of the details this Guy revealed himself to be the biggest AC ever! He blew extremely hot, then hot, then warm, then luke warm, then freezing cold! Then disappeared all within the short space of 3 months. He totally played with my head. What I’m trying to say is by me believing all the future faking I didn’t take the time to get to really know the person I dating. Its been a hard long nearly 4 months to get over it (I know, way too long!) but I’ve learnt so much, and I know it will never happen to me again. In all my years of dating I have never shed tears over a guy like I did with this AC! I just feel so silly to have allowed someone to treat me this way. 🙁
Stephanie
That is the same as me,only I was strung along for 2 years and it took me 2 years to recover.
Credit to you for for getting out as soon as you did.
OMG, I thought I was the only one who took so long. I was even afraid to post this, but a “relationship” I had (at the time I did not know about EUMs) that was even shorter than yours and I am just recovered now, 1.5 years later. Or I hope I am. I am in awe when people post feeling really good after a day, a week, a month of NC. I did feel really good the first few weeks but major despair after…
Aaargh! I took 8 months!
8 months! The psych bill easily comes to $1000 and that’s not including the impact on my life, work, health…
Tired,
exactly. And it is also, in my opinion, difficult to share, bc most people will say:”What? What’s wrong with you that it is taking you so long? And are you crazy that you need to go to therapy?” OK, maybe not most people, but from those who do, it really stings (bc you would not be confiding in them if you did not think they would understand, right?).
Its only been 3 months since my breakup and I’ve already heard the “Why aren’t you over this yet? Just move on and stop talking about it!” Yeah, like we want to be stuck. I’m trying!! People are not very understanding sometimes.
Lost again
I do understand the need to talk about it but I think other people run out of patience.Talk to people who have been in the same situation.It took me a lot longer than that ,so your not on your own.Nobody likes being stuck and letting go creeps up on you slowly.
Take care x
I have been involved in those very short intense relationships. Now, it amazes me that my heart was so invested and broken after such a short period of time of being involved with the AC/EUM. And yes, it took me months to recover from these short-lived relationships. After much self -introspection, I now realized that there was such a void in my life, not feeling good about myself, that caused me to invest so much of myself into a person that was only in my life for a few months. I believe that the intensity of the hurt was due to the negative thought that I was finally going to be rescued from my own life. Yeah, the AC/EUM lied to me and played his little games. But, I am totally convinced that it is/was something within me that permeated, “show me attention, I am vulnerable.” And when the AC/EUM did not live up to my fantasy of being rescued, it was actually very devastating . And this is exactly the part of me that I am focusing my attention on so that the next AC/EUM will get the boot quickly or better yet, I will not attract that type of person in my life again. I dont believe that I am there yet. Which is why I am not dating, but gosh do I miss the companionship/intimacy of a man. But, I am just going to take it easy and maybe ask for a man, to give me my next massage lol.
I guess everyone, especially when you have been single, as long as I have, wants to finally settle down so that you can exhale. But I dont believe that this is the approach to have, well its not working for me. I am trying to teach myself to exhale now, so that my spirit does not permeate desperation, “look I am trying to sign-up for whatever deal that you are offering”. Nobody worthwhile wants someone so eager.
Being with an EUM or AC is one of the most SOUL DESTROYING experiences and usually is a sign that some things deeper are not alright.
They’re not like a standard break up from a *healthy* relationship. When I broke up from my last partner (in a healthy LTR) I didn’t grieve at all and it only took about 2 days or so to feel better and move on.
Yeah, I think it’s actually traumatic, or even re-traumatizing if you’ve had earlier upheavals.
I’ve recently had a very similar experience with a… headhunter. No, I wasn’t romantically involved. He (or rather his researcher) approached me for a job, but when I met the headhunter, he totally messed with my mind. He made me feel emotionally instable, doubt my own skills and competency and finally deemed me “not ready for the job” (even if the offer wasn’t all that great and I’m probably way better off at my current position).
It took him only one hour (!!!) to achieve that, by asking more and more outrageous suggestive questions about things way back in my CV, making them sound like failures even if they were clearly successes! He tried to get me admit to flaws I absolutely didn’t have. I didn’t “admit” anything. I answered all his questions in a matter-of-fact way (I was well prepared), but I grew more and more uneasey nevertheless. Why did he still believe I was a fraud even if I said all the right things???
In the end he accused me of being way too nervous!!!
At some point during the interview, I stopped trying to please him and simply stared him down. He didn’t like that either, because his questions only got worse afterwards. In the end, I had difficulties meeting his eye, and even more trouble picking up my purse and coat. He asked smugly: “Are you sure you have everything???’”
Of course, “tough” questions are normal in a job interview, and this is what puzzled me the most. But he simply didn’t stop asking that kind of questions, and they grew more and more outrageous.
I tore his business card up and flushed it you-know-where, but I’m still struggling with the memory. At the moment, I’m shivering again.
EllyB
That sounds horrendous. I suppose we should remember that in interviews, as well as in dating and relationships, there is always an exit door which we should feel free to use as soon as it is apparent that the ‘date’ is an asshole.
Jaysus!
Narcissists also exist in the corporate world – corporate psychopaths. Be careful!
Elly,
Sorry that happened to you. I have empathy for you as I too unfortunately have had to deal with some jerk hr personnel during interviews. I’ve been on dozens of interviews over the years (due to various layoffs) & there’s always one or two each round that that think they’re geniuses and take joy in picking you apart. They seem to feel it’s their job to weed people out, seem to go into them determined to find out “what’s wrong with you” that you don’t currently have a job. Messed up. Just b/c you don’t have a job at that moment or whatever does not mean something is wrong with you. I’ve had the “imagining flaws where there are none,” embarassing, uncomfortable question stuff, patronizing language thrown at me as if I’m so dumb and can’t so much as sign my name. Which did make me nervous! I’ve left some interviews with tears in my eyes. I wish I had left in them middle of those interviews, they were not worth my time.
Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU, all of you! I actually started doubting my sanity, wondering whether I caused all this myself somehow?
During the interview, I had horrible, out-of-control flashbacks of discussions with my narcisisstic mother, something that hadn’t happened to me in at least 6 months (thanks to therapy).
I actually believe he was a narcissist, because of my flashbacks, his behavior and also because of his CV. Unfortunately, all this didn’t occur to me until a week after the interview, after a lot of suffering and second-guessing myself.
According to Google he was a failed top-manager, someone who had been ousted out of a top-level-position after a few months only and joined that small consulting firm afterwards. Not unusual for people with NPD as far as I know. Plus, three times during that interview, he made remarks full of vitriol about other failed managers. It made me shiver every time.
Okay, so I (probably) encountered another narcissist. Makes me wonder whether there is any safe place in the world for me… The only thing I can do is remind myself how little power he had over me. He isn’t my mother, and I’m not a child anymore (thank God). It’s still painful anyway (re-traumatization I guess).
That’s awful, Elly B. I am not surprised it shook you up and made you feel bad, but don’t question yourself too much. It was someone behaving in a cruel and anti-social way. Even a lion, the king of the jungle, would be scared if it was put in a large microwave and zapped. He misused his power. What a creep!
Wow. Soul destroying is right. Tired and Aboutme, it helps so much to understand why it hurts so much. I literally said last night…I’ve never felt this bad before! WTF??!!
P
It’s even worse when you realise it wasn’t actually a relationship at all.
yes, oh yes
I did do a fair bit of the discovery described in this article, but it turns out that I did nowhere near enough. It was great for a full year for us. It was the happiest year of my life. It then deteriorated slowly, as described above, for another year and a half after that. I do blame myself for not walking away when I should have, instead of trying to recapture the happiness that was. Stephanie describes it well – Very hot, then hot and warm. I thought the warm was the normal settling into an established relationship at the end of the first year. That would be true except for the following lukewarm and ultimately the indifference and cold.
I pray it won’t be 2 years to recover for me. It’s been several months, and I already feel like it should be enough time for me to have processed it all and well on my way to moving on. Some days, I feel like I’m heading there and then there are days that I think I never will.
My heart was broken by him like it never was broken before. I try to think back to the very beginning, when we first started to date, and I did do a lot of discovery and applying the brakes. The big red flag was that he was separated. He said and did all the right things to ease my fears, for a very long time, and it was a chance I decided to take.
I shouldn’t have.
I do not believe that you can recapture those happy, intense moments that the AC/EUM initially shows in the beginning of the relationship, because that period of time is just an illusion, not real. I have spent months trying to recapture that high I felt after spending a few months or even worse a few dates, with the AC/EUM. That pursuit is completely a waste of time. Not to mention all of the mental time that you spend trying to figure out what went wrong, i.e., replaying every conversation, email, text, etc. The longer and harder that you try to recapture those highs of the relationship, the lower you sink your self esteem in that black hole. And it is hell trying to climb back up.
If a guy can turn off what appears to be intense feelings without any plausible, reasonable explanation, it is my opinion that those feeling were not real to begin with or there is something going on with him that you can not fix. Save yourself, as NML would say, flush.
Oh yeah, did the separated man thing too. When a man is separated, even if he is separated for twenty years, mine was separated for five years. For whatever reason, he has chosen to remain under contract with someone else. No matter how nice he is, that separated man is not completely available to sign up with a contract with you. Save yourself, flush.
Aboutme: I could not state this better: “If a guy can turn off what appears to be intense feelings without any plausible, reasonable explanation, it is my opinion that those feeling were not real to begin with or there is something going on with him that you can not fix. Save yourself, as NML would say, flush.” I now think – based on my last 2 “boyfriends – that a guy coming on really intensely, as though a prince riding in on a white steed telling you that you’re exactly what he’s been looking for, etc. – is a HUGE red flag. The first such guy was bipolar – oh, we could have so much fun – but there was so much instability and I was so hurt trying to hang in for the “fun” while trying to figure him out (I didn’t know his psychological condition, actually, until we broke up for the last time). The second one came on strong but seemed much smoother and more grounded. However, nearly two months later, he was ready to dump me for a minor reason not even put on the table.
A relationship should develop in the opposite way!!! Sure, there should be chemistry, but any expression of feelings, etc., should not come from hormones or sex drive or fantasy, but needs to be tempered by the process of actually getting to know us. The verbal superlatives need to wait until there is real and not fantasy basis for them.
I don’t know how your relationship began, but don’t beat yourself up for not being a mind reader, either. Sometimes people flake out and you just couldn’t have known because the discovery phase threw up no caution signals. But the flaking out is in them, and on them.
Stephanie,
Don’t feel badly; my eum/ac relationship of a little under 4 months took longer to get over than my 4 year relationship with someone with whom I lived. Really toxic and narcicisstic people can do a number on you, we have all been there. Its the creepiness of the questions I think that later plague you-did I know them, did they ever really care, was any of it real etc. The answer is probably not and it would not have changed the outcome anyways. Just thank god that they are gone:)
“Note, I don’t factor casual relationships (oxymoron alert) into this because it’s a bit thick to claim to be dating with the purpose of lining up someone for a shag, an ego stroke and a shoulder to lean on – it’s called ‘dating’ to get your foot through the door like one of those dodgy sales people.”
Having “dated” more than one (*ahem*) dude like this, that is 100% accurate. It’s ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is when it would fall apart and they’d act like, “Whaaaaaaat?! I’m entitled to get right out there and use people!” I will never understand why these people just can’t seek out someone else who is ALSO looking for a casual relationship, rather than waste the time of people who clearly want more. If they found someone outright looking for what they are looking for, it saves the effort of being evasive/dishonest/shady. Am I right? I digress.
Thanks for this Nat – I’m going on my first date in over a year tomorrow night and…a refresher on these matters never hurts 😉
Natasha, a lot of people (myself previously included) do allow casual relationships and the like to happen ‘while they wait for something better to come along’.
There are people who do date with a view to casual relationship. I’ve been in the situation myself and I know people personally who have done this. I probed one of my friends as to why they were doing this – ‘eh, the longest anyone has lasted has been 3 months, we’re all going to break up anyway, so what the heck?’. I asked them why just not title it and make it a proper LTR, wow, so much evasiveness! Basically it was because when you break up it won’t hurt so much – you avoid the pain.
Sadly, where you won’t put up with garbage and shady behaviour, someone will welcome it with open arms and treat it like precious valuables rather than the garbage that it is.
Oh believe me, I treated my shady relationships like crown jewels! The dudes I was talking about are the straight-up assclowns that front like they want a relationship to get what they want and THEN pull the rug out. I totally agree that a lot of people are engaging in the casual stuff in an attempt to minimize possible hurt. It’s like risk management, dating style!
If they found someone outright looking for what they are looking for, it saves the effort of being evasive/dishonest/shady. Am I right? I digress.
Having agreed to one of these casual relationships I can say nope they are still evasive/dishonest/shady because in all honesty they have no idea what they want.
I hoep it all goes well for you, Natasha, and you have an enjoyable time.
Tulipa, I agree that there are some who have no idea what they are doing/what they want, etc. At the end of the day, being involved with someone who Nat would describe as “Not knowing their arse from their elbow.” is a no-go regardless of whether it’s casual/allegedly committed! Thanks so much for the good wishes – I had, dare I say it, FUN. I haven’t had fun with a male person that wasn’t a friend/coworker/blood relative in quite some time – regardless of what happens, it’s nice to know that it can be done 😉
Wheee! Happy to hear about your FUN date! Good for You!
🙂 🙂 🙂
Yay!
Hey Natasha,
Happy to hear you had FUN. That’s totally cool, So Cal speak. Just keep your head in reality and your BR flush handle handy, BR speak.
Okay just so I know, assuming I’m on a real date someday, what did you order? Was it the lobster?
So happy to hear things went well and you had fun.
There is life after EUM/AC’s and we don’t have to be FBG’s forever! I know it’s only one date but I’m happy for you.
Runner, we both ordered the lobster haha! It was really funny, we were looking over the menus and he was all, “I think I’m going with the lobster, it’s phenomenal here.” and I thought, “Score! Now I don’t have to worry about the waiter breaking into a spontaneous performance of Kanye West’s ‘Golddigger’.” It’s the little things in life, isn’t it? 😉
My verdict on the evening as a whole: No red flags as of yet, convo flowed well, laughs were had (I’m a sucker for that one, I must admit), I find him attractive and the goodnight kiss was well executed. He mentioned that he’d like to see me again, so if he asks, I will say yes. If not, well, New Englanders like myself are obsessed with seafood and the lobster WAS phenomenal.
Thank you so much for the support lady – you are the best-est! I love that you mentioned that we are not stuck being FBG’s forever…AMEN!! *Big Hugs*
That sounds so nice, Natasha. You did it. Onwards!
How wonderful Natasha. Lobster, laughs, and a well-executed kiss. It’s great to hear you had fun. Did you think of BR when you were ordering the lobster? It is really amazing how spot on Natalie is with the dating advice (as well as all advice) because that’s where it all starts.
It sounds like you are approaching dating WITH with your eyes and ears open, your feet in reality, and you aren’t going to strike just any raunchy deal for a busted up vacuum. If he calls again, that’s great. If not, you had a nice evening and a PHENOMENAL lobster dinner. I’m with you on the seafood.
You are such an inspiration. Nope, we are NOT stuck being FBG’s forever thanks to Natalie and BR, we don’t have to marry them, and we don’t have to sleep with them even if they popped for lobster.
6 months ago I couldn’t imagine going on a date. I’d rather stay home and clean my tile grout as well as my oven and maybe wash the windows too. Now I’m thinking dating sound like it could be kinda fun cos I’ve realized based on Natalie’s posts on comments like yours, I can opt out or opt in. Most of all, I’m thinking I’m starting to trust myself to know when to bail and not to marry them before I know them. That’s a tremendous change for me.
Good for you Natasha. It’s wonderful to see how Natalie’s advice can be implemented and change lives. You go girl! Keep us posted on your discovery phase, if you are comfortable. It’s so wonderful to hear it is possible just like Nat says!
And thank you Natalie. You and the wonderful BR community have given me such hope for the future.
@Elle – Thanks girl! Onwards INDEED 🙂
@Runner – I was in the “I’d rather clean my grout. For serious.” mode for quite awhile! I completely agree that, when you know you can opt out of anything that is non-fun (I just decided that’s a word) or shady, it can be an enjoyable process, not a slog through the douchebag swamp 😉 I know I’ll probably encounter a few jerkoffs, but that’s okay and at least now we know to leave! I’m so glad you’re trusting yourself and have the faith in you to realize that not only can you do it, you can do it right!
p.s. I did think of you ladies when I ordered haha!
Awwwwww thank you so much Blueberry Girl and Yoghurt 🙂 You are so sweet! I’ll keep you updated on any further developments haha!
Natasha, I’m answering this cautiously because, I’ll be honest, it might all be bollocks and a big line that I’ve spun myself to justify my behaviour but, insofar as I haven’t busted it as bullshit yet, it’s true as far as I know.
Although either way it isn’t going to be modelling any healthy relationship behaviour, so be warned!
…when I first met the EUM (many months before I got pregnant by him) I really really believed that I was only up for a ‘casual’ relationship. I’d just split up from my real-proper-bought-a-house-together-and-everything boyfriend of six years and I knew that I’d an awful lot of issues to work through about everything that had gone on there.
In fact, I fully believed that the EUM was going to be a ONS . When we woke up in the morning and he did the looking-anxious and the “I don’t really want a relationship right now…” I just laughed and said “there isn’t one on offer, mush!” And MEANT IT!
After that we saw each other for a while on a FWB basis and I was fine with that – until he dumped me. Admittedly that irritated me, because as far as I was concerned I hadn’t put myself in a position to be broken up with (I think my exact words were: “Oi! That’s like shooting a civilian!”). After that, I stopped having sex with him as obviously HE wasn’t comfortable with it but then I got a lot of lies and faffing and blowing-hot-and-cold. Eventually I was ensnared and hooked and screwed up, but it was took a good six months or so of very manipulative and sneaky behaviour on his part.
I didn’t have a problem with a casual relationship or a FWB situation. I DID – and still DO – have a problem with being manipulated, lied to and hassled at strange times of the day and night.
I don’t think that casual relationships work – even if both parties agree to them – because they don’t just take commitment off the table, they also take off fairly essential items for interacting with ANYONE – like honesty, respect, consideration and fairness. I didn’t realise that.
I think that it’s also worth pointing out that probably a lot of casual-relationshippers don’t want to operate under a totally straightforward basis – they want to introduce the emotion into the situation even if they’re not feeling it in the first place. Nobody wants to think of themselves either as a usee or user, so it’s easier to spin a line about it to yourself and the other person.
Anyway, needless to say I shan’t be doing THAT again.
Having read all that back I think I should add that there was obviously a fair old amount of self-delusion going on in there as well – I REALLY didn’t mind it being in a casual relationship? Really? So why did I let it carry on for so long? What was I hoping for? What was the end result supposed to be?
Hmmm.
You are absolutely right yoghurt, brilliant insight.
BINGO
“I didn’t have a problem with a casual relationship or a FWB situation. I DID – and still DO – have a problem with being manipulated, lied to and hassled at strange times of the day and night.
I don’t think that casual relationships work – even if both parties agree to them – because they don’t just take commitment off the table, they also take off fairly essential items for interacting with ANYONE – like honesty, respect, consideration and fairness. I didn’t realise that.”
Am I having an epiphany day today?
Excellent point. I also guess most participants in “casual relationships” seek – at least subconsciously – a fair amount of ego-boosting. They hope to be the “stronger” partner, the one who cares less about the other one than vice versa, the one who’s less likely to get hurt. I think in such a “relationship”, everyone somehow hopes to get more out of it than he/she invests. Of course, that makes at least one of the two feel like the “loser” in the end.
Please correct me if I’m wrong. Maybe I’m just projecting, because in all honesty, I’ve been there myself!
EllyB,
I think you are correct – see “risk management” in another comment. Plus, even worse, if we *know* someone is EU we kind of count on it as it enables (or so we think) us to be the *stronger* person, bc, after all, *we* are *aware*. Makes me sick to recall such situations (now).
Yes- it’s he/she who cares less, wins.
I’ve been a “winner” in the past, as well as a loser, and actually neither feels good. Where’s the ego boost in being with someone you don’t actually want to be with, and who puts you on a pedestal you know you don’t deserve?
Mymble well said.
I think that Elly’s point is a very good one too.
“He/she who cares less, wins” is totally right as well. Ugh though – how horrid. So the person who is most oblivious to the other’s needs, who has the fewest hang-ups about screwing them around, who can ignore the other’s discomfort the most effectively and who can blind themselves the other’s good points for the longest is the winner? THAT’S the criteria we’re using for choosing a partner?
Mad. We live in mad times.
The thing is, I say this and I act disgusted, but the truth is that I’ve played that game as well. Horrible. And stupid. Ashamed.
EllyB,
That totally reminds me of a friend of mine who always said, “always be with someone who loves you and wants you more than you want them.” She’s married to this guy and she always dated men where this was true, I believe to always feel like she had the upper hand, and so she wouldn’t get hurt. The ONE time I remember her telling me a story of being vulnerable, and yes it was a humiliating event but it didn’t last for more than ONE day, it’s still her biggest regret and “hurt.” I don’t prescribe whatsoever to her philosophy, I think it seems “empowering” but really…it’s a defense mechanism. I would rather believe there is a mutually fulfilling relationship out there and I don’t have to settle on either spectrum…asshole guy or doormat guy. And it’s not fair to the available healthy men…is it in itself being a bit UNavailable? It’s maddening in a certain way that it has “worked” for her and she has a man that falls to her feet, stops the presses, fixes EVERYthing for her… anytime she sneezes. She is truly also one of my biggest fans, and tells how wonderful I am and how much I deserve from a man! I wouldn’t say I’m jealous…as I’ve learned here it’s likely you will find what you look for. But I still don’t want to settle or use someone. Not willing to downgrade myself to AC. 😉
“That said, if you’re the type of person who can’t mix sex with getting to know someone, it’s best not to ‘get down’ until you can.”
Casual relationships and sex are a minefield for me~confusing and ambiguous and hurtful. There’s one party who always wants more time, commitment, emotion (yea, you guessed it, ME!) and is sorely burned in the end. By sheer self-protection, I’ve been forced to adjust my mindset on sex and when it should occur. If at all. I would “get down” way too soon when I should have been “getting” more information on my partner. That would have saved me so much hurt and disappointment. Thanks to BR, that isn’t going to happen anymore.
“By sheer self-protection, I’ve been forced to adjust my mindset on sex and when it should occur. If at all.”
Oh Amen Blueberry Girl! At this point in my life, they’d better be satisfied with goodnight kisses alone for the first handful of dates. I totally agree – if I’d gotten around to enforcing that one sooner I would have saved myself a hell of a lot of anguish!
Blueberry girl,
I am the same way with casual relationships. I have tried a couple of times and always ended up crying into a pillow in the dark, while he is carrying on without a care in the world.
My Ex EUM/AC just proposed a casual relationship. I told him I was not interested in being a booty call and he said I should look at it more like partners in sex. WOW. This coming just DAYYYS after I told him I still had feelings for him. He knows I am vulnerable and he totally tried to take advantage of my state. What a kick in the teeth from a true ASSCLOWN.
Thankfully I did not cave. I may have fallen off the wagon but I’m not about to get run over by it too. I physically wanted to very badly and even had a moment of thinking that maybe if we reconnected he would remember the good times and want to be with me. I know thats not how it works, so I stayed strong and salvaged at least a shred of self-respect.
Lostagain,
Pat yourself on the back. He’s selfish and thoughtless to try to use you sexually when you’ve revealed deeper feelings…a total take advantage maneuver. When I slept with a man who just wanted me for sex (my exMM comes to mind), I would enjoy it for the moment and suffer terrible emotional pain afterward. As Natalie says, no sex is that great that it’s worth selling your self-esteem down the river.
Keep dodging the bullet. Read Nat’s doc on casual relationships. It helped me break free. I’m ashamed to admit I was addicted to the sex.
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/You-Know-Hes-Unavailable-When-Its-Casual.pdf
“…he said I should look at it more like partners in sex.”
Lostagain, I hope it’s OK that I laughed out loud in disbelief. Where DO these guys come up with these lines?! Oy.
You did well to stay strong. Keep flexing that newfound muscle.
(And perhaps go full NC on his arse? It really speeds up the healing process, in my experience. )
Why, if you describe him as an AC, was he able to get in touch with you to deliver this delightful proposition?
Oh Lost Again, I so identify with crying into a pillow in the dark while he went on about his business. I am sorry for what you are going through right now but you are on the right track, in my opinion. I’ve done the booty call thing, casual relationship with the exMM (because I was EU) while hoping for an upgrade and it didn’t work. Partners in Sex, WTF. Where in the sam hell do these guys get this shite? So, FWB is now PIS.
Hang in there and double flush this AC. Don’t even think that if you have sex with him, he’ll “remember the good times”. I did it and thought the same for two years. Only thing he remembered, having sex, those were his “good times”. Loved your comment about falling off the wagon but not getting run over by it.
If you read the thread by Natasha above, there is hope. We can expect real dates and get to know these guys and bail, if we treat dating as a discovery phase. Good for you for not caving. You know better now and what is good for you. You’ve done your discovery and this guys’s credit stinks. Decline his card.
This is why BR such a great place. Every night, I discover a new AC line. I’ll be on the look out for Partners In Sex. Soooo sorry Lostagain. There’s life after AC’s. Nat and so many others are living proof. Double, double flush. May I flush him too? Stand strong.
“I think that it’s also worth pointing out that probably a lot of casual-relationshippers don’t want to operate under a totally straightforward basis – they want to introduce the emotion into the situation even if they’re not feeling it in the first place. Nobody wants to think of themselves either as a usee or user, so it’s easier to spin a line about it to yourself and the other person.”
So well said Yoghurt! I know exactly what you mean about self-delusion…I think we’ve ALL been there. I loved your whole comment – you really hit the nail on the head about 20 times!
Yoghurt
“I don’t think that casual relationships work – even if both parties agree to them – because they don’t just take commitment off the table, they also take off fairly essential items for interacting with ANYONE – like honesty, respect, consideration and fairness.”
I think this is very true. Well said. It kind of sums up why these arrangements are not a good idea. I think on-going “casual relationships” in which no-one gets hurt or gets angry are like hens’ teeth. I never heard of one yet. Guys who say they want ‘casual’ really mean they want sex with no strings attached. A lot of women start off thinking that it’ll be just a bit of harmless fun but after a while they realise they have agreed to booty call status and stop finding it so funny.
I could’ve written this comment. I also “shan’t be doing that again”. I agreed to something casual (I won’t go so far as to call it a relationship), but I did agree to it.
A lot of manipulation and games. Never again. I assumed that I would at least be treated with some respect and be told when he had met someone and when he was dating (turns out he decided to act like an ass so I would leave instead of actually saying he was dating someone)…..
Excellent points! I love the comparison with credit card companies.
I’ve always been so ‘in love with love’, that I tend to jump in head first without assessing the person. This leaves me angry and frustrated when I discover that the person I invested so much of my heart in turns out to be a jerk. Go figure.
Thanks for the reminder to place more value on myself by taking the time to get to know who I so freely give my heart to; it’s a gift, and not every man deserves it.
Hugs from California,
Christine
@Christine, you are so right “not every man deserves it”. I too was “in love with love”, it clouded my judgement, was my excuse for some pretty embarrassing behavior and lots of sleepless nights.
Love can be a drug like any other kind of drug and for me being “in love with love” was my fix. Thank goodness I made it to rehab LOL.
Christine, I agree completely! I feel like I just need to give out love or even “like” to the first man that comes within spitting distance…. and they end up being jerks! If I gave out little pieces of my heart to every idiot that crosses my path, I’d have nothing left. So instead I choose to love myself and let other love come naturally 🙂
“spitting distance”? ha ha ha ha ha
Natalie, I’m going to print this post out and carry it in my handbag when I start going on dates again. Then when I begin to feel myself getting carried away and forgetting what early dates are for, I can excuse myself for a few moments and go and re-read it in the Ladies as a reality-check reminder. Because this post says it all in a nutshell. Brilliant!
As usual, this article just came at the perfect time! I’ve basically been dating someone for three months that I didn’t feel any chemistry with. Y’know, a nice guy, but we just didn’t get each other. However, because he pursued me relentlessly for the first 6 weeks, I was flattered into dating him against my gut feeling. Cut to three months later, I was still dating the guy and he wasn’t even making that much of an effort anymore. And I still ddn’t feel anything for him. I guess the thing is, I’m 31, haven’t been in a proper relationship in a few years and I guess I’m just desperate to be in something, no matter what it is. Kinda sad really. Anyway, we broke it off the other day so I’m back in the dating game and I’m going to try not acting like it’s the “last chance saloon” anymore. Still, I think I stayed with him so long because I wanted it to work (because he ticked all the boxes) and because I hoped some spark would ignite within me. It just didn’t happen!
This was me exactly. I was casually dating a guy for 6 months — a really nice guy — and as SunnyB puts it, all the boxes were ticked. But I didn’t feel an ounce of passion for him, and was carried along by the impetus of his flattering attentions, nothing more. I even found myself actively dodging his very sweeet and valiant efforts to get together, and was relieved when he finally wrote me a very nice, very ardent, very heartfelt e-mail, telling me he was “emotionally confused” because he was interested in exploring a connection with someone else he had met. (And we weren’t even exclusive… but he was just very upstanding that way). So I basically went along half-heartedly for the ride… and then frustrated him into pursuing someone else. I certainly wasn’t doing that intentionally. But I should have done the kind thing and let him go alot sooner.
But the more important lesson I learned first-hand, was what it’s like to be unavailable/disinterested in someone. Because in all honesty — and as kind and sweet as he was — this man barely registered on my radar most of the time. I just didn’t think about him from day to day. I suppose that’s what EUMs and ACs do… they will show up half-heartedly for a date (like I did), they will acquiesce to future dates (like I did), they will go through the motions and seem for all purposes to be interested (same here), and they will even have sex when the opportunity arises (I did that too)… but underneath it all, they will not be invested and serious about a relationship. And it’s only a matter of time before they will actively bail out, or else force you to jump ship on them.
Yes, I’m EU too. And I guess I got to see the other side of the equation. I hope I can learn from my own lesson, and see the signs early if I run across EUMs in the future.
Snap to everything you just said! I don’t think I’m generally EU but I was with this guy because I just wasn’t into him. Still, I’m annoyed and confused as to why I let him be the one to end it……..and why it seems to bother me so much! How come I’m bothered about breaking up with someone I didn’t even really like that much?!
True words!!!! As I’m entering the dating market yet again. And may I emphasize – even if the guy comes on soul-mate calibre strong – you do not know yet if they are future faking or whether it’s one of those magical tales, until a long period of time goes by and their actions have a track record of matching their words. If it’s that magical, it will sustain. Last guy I dated wrote on my birthday card after 2 weeks that he looked forward to “many years together.” I thought that was so magical – my prince!! In reality, I should have said (in these words or more politely), WTF – you don’t even really know me??? My fault for eating it up like banana cream pie. Two months later, he abruptly bailed on me following a stressful event in his life, after professing the sky and the moon caliber feelings. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR TIME!!!!!! Please note, too, that a seeming “good guy” – good profession, good treatment of you, good recommendation by his friends as being “so nice” – can STILL be an asshole in a relationship – as much as a blatant bad guy. They just do their assholery in smoother and more surprising ways – because you don’t expect it. If I would have laid back for 6 months – yes, that long – I would not have been so badly hurt.
Here’s something else – I’d love to see an article on pitfalls of dating men with mental health challenges – though I know it is dicey territory to write about. This is the second guy I’ve dated who confessed to having mental problems (though assured me that it wouldn’t affect the relationship). The first was actually bipolar – a total sweetheart when all was well, but hell when he deteriorated into mania or depression – he’d just disappear. Then return when better. (I allowed this about 3x.) Please know, that the true colors of these guys will come out when they are under stress. They can charm the heck out of you when all is well. These two were extraordinarily bright, charming and handsome. Yet both of these guys abruptly disappeared once they hit serious stressful incidents in their life. I am very sympathetic to people with mental health struggles, but I am not wired to be in relationships with unpredictable people – and both of these guys had absolutely NO regard for my feelings in the choices they made. Maybe others are able to deal with it better than I can.
Please note, too, that a seeming “good guy” – good profession, good treatment of you, good recommendation by his friends as being “so nice” – can STILL be an asshole in a relationship – as much as a blatant bad guy.
*weeping tears* I wish it wasn’t so but this is sooooo true.
I’d love to see an article on pitfalls of dating men with mental health challenges – though I know it is dicey territory to write about.
There is no such thing as unfair discrimination when it comes to dating – if you don’t want to be with someone from religion X, body shape Y, with disability Z, nationality A or B, as mean as it sounds, you get to decide who you get involved with. You’re not a government office or job centre!
<>
That is so true! I like that… I will only choose a qualified “applicant.” If 1000 men apply and none are “qualified”, then none get chosen!
Broadsided
Please note, too, that a seeming “good guy” – good profession, good treatment of you, good recommendation by his friends as being “so nice” – can STILL be an asshole in a relationship – as much as a blatant bad guy. They just do their assholery in smoother and more surprising ways – because you don’t expect it.
Correct!! These guys are the worst, because they portray to be something that they are not.
Broadsided,
“Please note, too, that a seeming “good guy” – good profession, good treatment of you, good recommendation by his friends as being “so nice” – can STILL be an asshole in a relationship – as much as a blatant bad guy. They just do their assholery in smoother and more surprising ways – because you don’t expect it”.
That’s so true! My last one was just like this. I think that’s what made the horrible asshole-ish way he behaved towards the end of our 1-year relationship so incredibly debilitating for me. He had all those “good” attributes you mentioned – great job (airline captain), impeccable manners, mutual acquaintances said he was a bit bonkers but a lovely guy etc – and he convinced me so smoothly that he was crazy about me that I just didn’t see it coming that this wasn’t really the case, and that actually he hadn’t got over the previous ex-gf. I was totally shocked to discover him trying to get back with her, just completely blindsided. But like you say, he was more or less declaring that I was the love of his life within a very short space of time from our first date – and, yes, I lapped it up like it was some kind of magical life-giving elixir. With the benefit of hindsight, I really wish I’d done proper due diligence for myself on our early dates, and not rushed into things with him just because he was paying me lots of attention and appearing to be besotted.
I’m going to learn this particular post of Natalie’s by heart.
Broadsided,
Your last paragraph interested me. The recent ‘very nice’ ex told me he’s struggled with serious depression issues his whole life (meds, therapy, suicidal ideation, isolation) and that he thought he might have a ‘touch’ of Aspergers. He also explained that his past relationships didn’t work because he never ‘let them in’ (his words). I saw the conversation as opening up and trusting me, but in hindsight I think he was really warning me and throwing out a disclaimer. He called himself flawed and gestured that he had limited coping abilities. Well, the boy ended up disappearing on me after, like he never knew me after 6 months. I didn’t want to heap him into the trash bin because of his history of depression, it didn’t seem fair. In the end, he didn’t care how fair it was to just disappear on me and leave me wondering WTF just happened. After this last go around I’ve decided to stop dating for a bit and focus on myself without distraction. I guess I need to tighten up my idea of what red and amber flags are, and honestly, quit being so empathetic. I could stand to be a little more judgmental, for my own good. I think I saw his ‘flawed’ confession as him being someone not perfect and that this would make him more accepting of me and the things I struggle with. Wrong. Bad recipe.
Jennynic:
“in hindsight I think he was really warning me and throwing out a disclaimer.”
I think this is a really important point. We have to be alert to the disclaimers when we start seeing someone.
A lot of comments on BR are from women who lament the ‘sudden change’ in the attitude of the guy they have been seeing and claim there was no warning.
I think most if not all EUMs throw out disclaimers from the very beginning; it’s just that we don’t hear what they are actually saying – we don’t read it as ‘a disclaimer’ at the time. In hindsight though, if we think back to the kind of things they said at the beginning then their disclaimers become very obvious.
I can see now that I was thrown loads of disclaimers by the ex EUM, e.g:
– ‘I don’t connect very well with people’
– ‘I’m not good at relationships’
– when he talked or was asked about ex girlfriends he would often say they had been seeing each other – ‘on and off’ (WTF! and I didn’t even see that one as a red flag!)
– He had had a thing with a girl just before I met him and he said about her: ‘I thought I was in love with her but I wasn’t’.
Other signs of a disclaimer:
The first kiss.We stood face to face, nose to nose. I knew he was about to kiss me. Except that he didn’t kiss me. He remained still. I was waiting. Then it dawned on me that he was waiting! It felt very awkward, so I did the kissing, just to move the moment on – or we might have stood like that all night! I thought at the time he was bashful. Cute. He wasn’t bashful. Not cute. Just an arsehole. He was getting in his disclaimer – the one that removes all of his responsibility because technically I made the first move.
I didn’t have BR back then, sadly, or I may have woken up sooner. When my ex EUM passes on from this world he should have carved into his gravestone
“Here lies xxxx.
On and Off.”
If i ever go out with another man, thanks to BR, I will be very alert to the chucking about of disclaimers.
fearless
I feel like the one who wants to MAKE the disclaimer. I feel I have to explain my dodgy past and confess my mental health issues as if the poor guy was a frickin priest. I’m confused about this urge but there’s certainly an element of wanting to dodge responsibility. Yeah, I told you I was a, b, c, that’s why I’m flaky. Also, more practically I’m going to have to explain why I made the mistake of getting married (WHY did I do that? Girls, careful what you wish for!). Or do I have to explain it? I’m divorced, is it anyone’s business?
Confused!
There’s a verse in the bible I am holding onto “As far as the east is from the west, thou hast removed my transgressions from me”. If I’m acceptable to God, wouldn’t I be acceptable to a man too? (all other things being equal, with shared values, etc.). And acceptable to myself. Which means I have to hold myself up to some standards and not give myself an excuse to be irresponsible in the mistaken belief that I am “less than” other people.
Thanks, fearless, I think I’ve figured it out!
Grace
It may be fair to be clear about *now* but to explain your past – why? To get “forgiveness” and permission to proceed?
You don’t need permission to proceed from anyone but yourself. You’re not in the dock (you certainly shouldn’t put yourself there!); you are not charged with crimes against humanity (!) (unless you want to lay those charges against yourself!), so, no, you do not owe *anyone* an explanation for aspects of your life that you wish you had handled differently. Let he who has handled his whole life perfectly cast the first stone!
“I feel I have to explain my dodgy past and confess my mental health issues as if the poor guy was a frickin priest.”
You do not have to explain or confess anything. Stop looking for reasons to convince yourself that you are not good enough for a decent man – when we feel like that we do then feel the need to convince him (via confessions and explanations) that we are good enough; then we’re in a whole heap of trouble!
You are more than enough! You are who your are. You have been where you have been. You are now where you are now. And you have been short-changed too many times, Grace. These terrible things you imagine you need to confess – you have not lived in a vaccum; we are all of us part of a bigger picture – not all of it by any means under our control. Don’t continue to short-change yourself by imagining you have some big confession to make – you don’t! You had a life before now – not all of it fan-dabby-dozie. So, welcome to the human race! You’ve handled it. You are handling it. You’re not going down those roads again. That’s all you need to know. That’s all any ‘he’ needs to be aware of. Don’t make excuses or confessions to anyone – ever – for who you are and what you have had to cope with. There’s a difference between confiding in someone you have come to trust – over time – and making a confession to a would be ‘date’/boyfriend/guy you know from the church.
You have come so far… now you need to be confident in who you are NOW. It’s the NOW (not the ‘then’) that the next guy will be getting from you. If you want to make the past a problem in your next relationship, then it will be. Get yourself right in – with both feet – to your now, to your present, Grace. That’s my tuppence worth ((hug))
thanks fearless, that really helps
I’ve been struggling with this for over a month and appreciate your clarity. Many of us suffer from a variation of “I’m not good enough” despite being attractive, successful, intelligent blah blah etc. I’ve come up with a more convoluted variation but it’s still basically the same crapola. Good to know and I refuse to indulge it anymore!
Grace, I get confused over this too. From this situation I think I learned something…you should be able tell your past (not every sordid detail, but the overall picture), but wait a while before you do it. How long I think will vary with each relationship. Wait until that person knows you better and knows who you are NOW. You are who you are now partly because of your past. I personally don’t want to hide my past but I don’t want it to define me either. I did some stupid things over the years, and I feel shame for staying in an abusive relationship for four years. It makes me feel unattractive as a partner to them once they know that I put up with abuse earlier in my life. I wouldn’t of bailed on this guy because of his past, but I’m pretty sure he looked at me different after he learned more about my past. I was ready to see him how he was today. Unfortunately, his past is still his present and he still carries around his past tragedies as a shield. I do too, but to a lesser degree. He realized it before me and bailed. Although I am mad at the cold way he did it, he at least knew he wasn’t capable of being in the relationship properly and opted out. I am having moments of kicking myself for revealing some things ( I thought I was revealing things slowly and as they came up) about myself (at his urging me to…”why are you so guarded, its okay to open up to me.”). I feel betrayed honestly. But in the future I want to be able to share some things with my partner. If he loves me for who I am now and we are treating each other with respect and care, it shouldn’t matter. I want to be accepted for who I am. I want someone to know who I am……my mistakes, my successes, and my moles, and still love me. I can give the same consideration regarding their past if I am being treated with respect and their is no ambiguity. I told him his depression wouldn’t make me run if he communicated with me about it. But, there was ambiguity surrounding us and sometimes he felt distant……that was a clue I ignored or tried to explain away as depression, when it was actually EU.
jenny
you were never going to win with this guy regardless of what you told him and when. I’d let yourself off that hook.
I don’t THINK I’m concerned with the man’s reaction but more concerned with WHY I feel the need to tell.
It should come out naturally over time and some of it may never need to be told. It’s not like I killed anyone.
I think telling someone they are guarded and should open up is a boundary bust. Sometimes they just want to get inside your head and mess with the controls because they think they know best and are oh-so-trustworthy. Not necessarily true.
I agree, Grace– forcing someone to share something they’re not interested in/ready to/comfortable with sharing is definitely a boundary bust. And, if someone feels the need to do this, it’s more about their own red flags than yours. Maybe they bully you into sharing stuff from your past that you’re not proud of so that they can feel that they’re not the only ones who are screwed up. Maybe on some level they suspect they’re not worthy of you, and they want information about your less-than-healthy past patterns, so that they can understand why in the world you’d choose to be with them. Maybe they are looking for instructions for how to manipulate your vulnerabilities and past hurts to get what they want and need in the present.
IMO, everyone has done things they aren’t proud of in relationships, has made mistakes, has gotten hurt, has hurt someone else, has lost their dignity in some form or another. It’s not these experiences themselves but what we DO with them, whether we learn what we need to learn from them, that determines whether we have something to disclaim or something to feel proud of..
As others have said, from your comments here you have developed profound courage and resilience, humor, insight and compassion from your “mistakes”. These are qualities that make for a wonderful sister/daughter/friend/girlfriend/wife/partner/etc. Anyone you date would be blessed to be with you regardless of whether and what you decide to tell them about your past relationships.
Thanks Izzy, Lo J and yogurt, that helps
I’m down in the dumps because he sang his first solo this morning. He’s got a really nice singing voice. but I wasn’t enjoying it. I was thinking “Who am I kidding, he’s never going to like me”.
I preferred it when I thought he was a bit thick.
I’m telling myself it’s just a discovery phase, don’t put him on a pedestal, stop the fantasy etc. etc. etc.! It’s easier to give advice than take it, that’s for sure.
Grace, I spent a lot of time thinking that I was “damaged goods” due to my anxiety issues and frankly abysmal relationship history. For lack of a more eloquent term…it’s BULLSH*T. Case in point: One of my girlfriends is getting married in a few months. She would happily tell you if she could that no one did more dumb stuff than her in our younger years. (I think I have her beat, but she insists she was #1 Dingbat. Game on.) I don’t actually know anyone that doesn’t have a memory or two (or 38) that makes them cringe. Literally not one person. I feel like sometimes we former FBG’s think we have to spend the rest of our days atoning in hair shirts because we’ve had crappy relationships. If that were true, the world’s population would be in serious trouble, because approximately 96% of the dating pool would be out of commission.
Hey Grace,
Remember that you can like him going well (being a good singer, in this case). A sign of a healthy relationship is relishing in the strengths of one another. It’s not a zero-sum game, authentic love and commitment.
But for now, you can just enjoy him. Try to smile and appreciate, rather turn in back onto you, thinking that his loveliness means he won’t like you. If he is a good and worthy man, he will like you (because he’ll be looking at you from a stable, generous place, and there is nothing objectively wrong with you ;)). Plus, with your boundaries in place, he won’t hurt you, even if, after a fair amount of time together, he decides – which he’s entitled to do – that you’re not quite right for each other. Same goes for you: if it’s nice between you, you’ll both proceed. Maybe you’ll just end up friends. Just wait and see.
I had to do this for a while, watch my affection for someone spiralling into selfish possessiveness and some weird insecure-rivalry thing.
Anyway, for what it’s worth, you are sharing more of yourself these days, which seems to be a healthy sign…
Thanks Elle and Natasha
I feel better today – good to know I’m not spiralling out of control for days on end like I used to. After a lengthy telephone consultation with my (married with three daughters) sister last night we decided it was all right for me to continue speaking to him and I shouldn’t run away if he tries to ask me out again. It’s like Dating for Dummies.
I know what you mean re the weird insecure rivalry thing. After church, a few women were fluttering around him (how dare they?! I noticed him first when everyone else was ignoring him!). I didn’t like it so I stomped off without saying hello. Preferable to joining the queue I suppose. He hasn’t done anything wrong, this is all in my head. We discover things about ourselves too.
I received my copy of Mr U and the FBG from amazon today. How’s that for a Valentine’s gift to myself!
Dating For Dummies!! Welcome to my world. I required a lengthy phone call with my married (with two kids) sister to accept a dinner date, so I truly know what you mean. I think you are going to love Nat’s book and it’s a most excellent VDay gift to you! I have sooooooo many bookmarks in my copy – it’s really amazing stuff. It took me a lot of work to get to the point where I didn’t end up on a days-long anxiety bender, so I am so happy for you. It’s hard work, but it’s some of the most worth-it work I think we’ll ever do.
p.s. If this dude serenades you, I expect you to report back immediately. IMMEDIATELY! 😉
‘I think telling someone they are guarded and should open up is a boundary bust. Sometimes they just want to get inside your head and mess with the controls because they think they know best and are oh-so-trustworthy.’
Thought of the Day.
Maybe of the week.
Thanks for that, grace.
Stay in the moment, Grace, enjoy and just BE. You owe him nothing but enjoying his company. All will happen in a natural flow. If and when these things need to be discussed, they’ll come out at the appropriate time and in the appropriate manner. Take a deep breath. You’re doing great!!
Grace
I can’t remember your comment about him asking you out and you running away, but I’m thinking the guy may not want to give you the chance to reject him twice? Hard for a guy to ask again when he got a ‘run away’ the first time? If you are interested in the guy, it may be up to you to let him know you have changed your mind? Why not invite him to go somewhere with you – it doesn’t need to be a big deal/big event? Bearing in mind that he’s allowed to ‘reject’ you too – one time!
Grace, I’ve just had this conversation with a friend, so I wonder if this point applies to you too?
Your past is part of who you are – that’s true and you can’t really do anything about it. However, it’s up to you what you choose to take out of it.
I can look at my past or I can focus on the fact that I was massively rejected by a number of people and dumb and deluded enough to let them to mess me about and waste my life. Or I can look at it as an experience that made me grow, that I learnt a lot from, that I found a courage and a resilience that I didn’t know I had and that helped me to change the beliefs that I’d had about myself and the world.
In the same way, you can look at your past and take from it that you have, at various times, been (and I’m spitballing here, so let’s say…) silly, misguided and a bit cruel. Or you can look at it and realise that you’ve had the courage and resilience to pull through it, the intelligence and the insight to recognise the causes and overcome them, the compassion to forgive yourself and the other people involved AND to still to have the faith in yourself and God to live your life fully, happily and to help other people (ref: how much time do you spend helping people on here?)
Some people are born knowing how to live life, some of us have to work it out as we go along and as far as I can see it’s pretty random whether you end up in one group or the other. All us work-it-outers can do is pay attention to the lessons and turn the suffering into something good. And I believe that the pay-off (if we go about it in the right way) is that we end up with a dimension of empathy, compassion and understanding that someone who hasn’t had the same experiences wouldn’t have, as nice and well-balanced as they may be.
(or at least I hope we do… else what was the point?)
You have it. You’ve earnt it. Be thankful but also… be proud of it.
jennynic, fearless,
going back over my relationships, yes, the disclaimers were there, sometimes verbal, sometimes through the weird baffling, conflicting behaviour that made me think WTF? My problem was, I just didn`t want to know, I was desperate to be loved. And fearless, the WTF banner that pops into my head will from now on be treated like a special gift that it is 🙂
Sushi
I am so hearing you! I had more WTF! moments with EUM than I’ve eaten hot dinners. I managed to douse every one of these unpleasant explosions with my handy hand-held WTF fire extinguisher. From now on when my head screams “WTF!” it’s going to come out of my mouth right back at him just before I come in with ‘ Go find some other mug!’
Groan. I’ve had WTF and disclaimer moments too.
Like that moment the AC told me “people come, take what the want and leave.” Like a slap in the face that one- I was shocked but not paying attention! I hadn’t discovered BR and was waaaaaay too naive and plain dumb to do anything about it.
Aaaaargh!!
Jennynic and radiogirl: It is so validating for me to share that others have this experience with the guys who come on strong, with or without mental health issues. Nothing is really unique, is it?? Amazing. I first found this site after the “last” boyfriend and his confusing behavior – only to see that many other people went through the EUM stuff which had not even been in my vocabulary before.
And I loved the permission to “discriminate” – I’m not a government agency – LOL!!!! I needed that laugh. I’m glad I learned this one after 2 months.
I, too, totally thought that when he first said, “I need to let you know – I struggle with depression and am on antidepressants” – it was not a red flag. That in itself does not seem harmful, and I thought if someone is open about their condition, unlike my last boyfriend before him who hid it and just acted in crazymaking ways….that they had it handled. I am no mental health professional, but two things characterize these guys that are worth watching for: coming on strong, and being very impulsive. They will say things and feel things “in the moment” that have no traction over time. This is why I now think the “over time” part is the most important part of the equation.
I was a sucker in believing, this last time. But I’ve learned that any time we give someone fast “soul mate” or “prince” status – we are setting ourselves up for a total fall. They need to EARN that status!!!!!
“THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR TIME!!!!!! Please note, too, that a seeming “good guy” – good profession, good treatment of you, good recommendation by his friends as being “so nice” – can STILL be an asshole in a relationship – as much as a blatant bad guy. They just do their assholery in smoother and more surprising ways – because you don’t expect it. ”
AMEN!!! I had to learn this the hard way. I actually have more respect for the so called “bad guys” because at least they show you who they are right from the start. I’m having fun with the current boyf, but also taking things slow and being true to myself. He seems like a jewel right now, but time will tell if he’s the real deal or if he turns out to be cubic zirconia.
Broadsided wrote:
“Here’s something else – I’d love to see an article on pitfalls of dating men with mental health challenges”.
I recently ended a 3-year relationship with guy who was only recently diagnosed as bi-polar with ADHD. I am no psychiatrist, but I also strongly, STRONGLY suspect he has Borderline Personality Disorder. He is a lovely, sweet man, and I have great sympathy for him and his various challenges.
But the funny thing is this: I found out about his issues only AFTER tolerating 3 years of crappy, confusing, self-esteem-sucking behavior. While it’s perhaps a bit comforting now (in retrospect) to be able to put a name to his affliction, and to explain the origin of some of his odd behaviour, it does NOT explain why I stayed so long in the face of it.
Bad behaviour is bad behaviour. Whatever the reason, I should have bailed out at the first sign of it. I’m the one who needs (and is getting) therapy to figure out why I didn’t.
Broadsided
Absolutely, someone can have a decent job, be financially responsible, intelligent, funny, well-educated, perceptive, have lots of friends, religious beliefs and STILL be EU.
Exhibit A: moi (in the past. I’m OVER it now).
Don’t get blinded by the tickboxes.
As for mental health issues, has he sought treatment? How are your boundaries and self-esteem? How would you feel about him being the father of your children? there have been and continue to be huge advances in mental health care.
Men and women with mental health problems can and do have good relationships and family lives but – I think their spouse has to be quite bulletproof with no florence-ing or “it’s all about me” tendencies. The sort of person who can say “sod you” and ignore the acting out, provided it’s not dangerous. I may be wrong, but I think the WORSE person for someone with mental health problems is a sweet and lovely FBG (or man) who bends over backwards to accommodate them.
I would not trust myself to handle anything other than stock standard basic. People with issues are magnets for florences and people that want to do reno on them – that is bad bad bad!
@Grace – that is an interesting comment. For me – it is about their behavior towards me. If someone has mental problems that they are dealing with – and the recent guy said he was worse with old school antidepressants but now was fine on two different, new formulations of low dose antidepressants – I *think* I would have no problem with it. If they have minor “issues” that they own, I have no problem – or, if they do something inconsiderate or erratic and clean it up. Neither of these two did. The first did not get treatment – apparently – did not even inform me of his issue; I found out from someone else after we broke up and the dots were totally connected for me in terms of his behavior.
The last guy informed me up front – but honestly, I did not suspect someone merely on antidepressants or with past depression, would be that impulsive (e.g., told me on a 10:30 p.m. PHONE CALL that he didn’t think he wanted a girlfriend any more??). So….yeah, I think the way I am wired psychologically, reliability and some degree of predictability/knowing what I’m dealing with, is important to me. Erratic behavior, and rude behavior that occurs without regard for my feelings, are things I cannot handle. I gave them each a chance, but they were each going to drive ME into having mental and emotional problems.
Point well taken above – the first time, I stayed in for a collective 2 years – for the highs and the fun, even though I experienced lows. Bad decision on my part, and I was definitely not taking care of myself; I was sort of “addicted” to him. This recent relationship just went on 2 months. I was very hurt at this weird breakup….but not enough time had passed for me to be long-term invested and totally devastated yet. A red flag I ignored was his dating history. He’s just been divorced 3 years – and did not have a happy marriage (to which I sympathized, as it happens). Yet he has not had a solid relationship since – has dated many, many women – he’s a handsome public figure that many women “want” – and said he had a hard time having a relationship before getting married, that he’d also suffered anxiety, etc., etc. BUT – I was different; I did not bug him in any way, nor did I pursue him, but he actively pursued me. Next time – I’ll take these sorts of confessions to mean, take double the time to get to know someone. Or more likely will say “pass.”
I invested in Assanova Fantasy Investments PLC and I lost my
ENTIRE investment. Of almost everything mentioned on this site, I did
the exact opposite (bar being involved with a future faker / married).
There are 2 deals that need to be done, in order:
1. The Dating Deal – this has to be *explicit* so that you KNOW you are actually dating (amazing how many aren’t even certain of this!) and there should be some boundaries. This flushes out dodgy people who claim ‘they had no idea that I wanted a date/something more.’ or ‘this was just a friends hangout thingy’.
In my situation, I was confused about whether we were even dating! It also gave them open licence to sleep around and do whatever they wanted. Never again!
Don’t do the ‘let’s be friends first and then see what happens’.
This is like signing up to ambiguity central. If they can’t even decide
to sign a deal for a date FLUSH ‘EM!
2. The LTR deal – this also has to be explicit. If they say anything the has
the word ‘Friend’ in it or allows you to both see other people (I’m not sure what NML has to say about ‘open’ relationships) be wary.
Remember that you also have to be capable of writing a good deal too. If they have capacity but you don’t, that’s still a bad deal overall. What do you bring to the table?
There is no escape- the responsibility is *squarely* on US to do to the checking and make sure that we also have capacity and decent range of
benefits to offer as well! Now, I think after reading this I will go and have a quiet cry! If only more fallbacks were conscious of the the deal process, there’d be a lot less ACs and EUMs getting a shag, ego stroke, cuddle or shoulders to lean on.
Assanova Fantasy Investments? Ahhhh… I can’t even write my thoughts here, but it rings a bell (related to my family of origin, no less.)
A few traps:
‘Bait and switch’ – I expected a LTR deal but it was withdrawn
and replaced with an offer to sign up to the ‘Friends Package’ (with ‘benefits’ on the side). Can you detect a switch?
Don’t sign this in ANY form, for ANY reason, even if the benefit is cuddles / regular lunches or dinners / make out buddy on the weekend! If they don’t sign the deal, the final words should be ‘It was nice knowing you, but we have to stop seeing each other’. NO FRIENDS, and certainly not with *any* kind of benefit attached. Enforce no contact afterwards.
This also means that you don’t offer the ‘friends package’ either!
‘Sign now, Upgrade later’ Getting offered a bad deal but then using the fantasy oven / hope oven to bake up the possibility of an upgrade in the future. In my case, my expectations were managed down even further – it was like being allowed to swim in a pool on the condition that I wear a ball and chain to my leg. Exhausting and difficult to breathe!
Some deal basics
1. Logistics – if there are huge amounts of travel or your work hours mesh so that you hardly see each other, this is bad. If they live in another country, or even an hour away and they’re not going to move or keep hiding behind this excuse, something is wrong. I flushed someone because they kept telling me how unbelievably busy they were at work.
2. Time – if your (or their life) is not in a good place, I’d think twice. If they’re about to fly overseas and you’re or they aren’t going to fly out of the country too, I’d think twice.
3. Living together – This isn’t primary school or high school, as an adult I’d like to co-habit. I hear a lot of my friends that get really really involved with someone for months/years – and they don’t even live
together. So what was the person doing when they weren’t over – you guessed it – they were cheating with someone else! Also handy for flushing out committment resisters!
4. Having a public title and not being in ‘relationship quarantine’ or secret. I’m so tired of situations where I’m treated as some kind of contraband cargo where I get referred to as ‘friend’ at the restaurant (*furious*), or their facebook status doesn’t change, or I am kept away from their friends and family in a isolation quarantine bay…
3. Living together – This isn’t primary school or high school, as an adult I’d like to co-habit. I hear a lot of my friends that get really really involved with someone for months/years – and they don’t even live together. So what was the person doing when they weren’t over – you guessed it – they were cheating with someone else! Also handy for flushing out committment resisters!
I don’t know about others but for me living together is a huge step, I think in all honesty I’d have to be married to live with a guy. I certainly wasn’t out there cheating nor was my boyfriend at the time. Maybe im a committment resister.
Out of curiosity what period of time would you date someone before you would live together?
Tulipa, my relationships have not progressed to a stage where I’ve had the privilege to move in with someone. I’m EU.
That said however, I don’t know what the big deal is with moving in. What is there to be afraid of? You can always move out if it doesn’t work out.
Many of the ‘relationships’ (if you can call them that) I’ve read about on this blog and in the book fail the touch test – that is, you hardly see the person! Living together means you can see them more often and spend more time with each other and do things together.
In the same way I don’t understand why two people who love each other wouldn’t want to make it official and public, I can’t really see why two people in a relationship wouldn’t want to live together.
I’d say anywhere between one month and three months. Its relatively easy to move in and move out (as opposed to say, having babies or marriage or even planning a holiday), so really I can’t fathom why it’s made out to be a big issue.
I don`t like to think in rigid time terms but……Having been through my battles I would not sleep with a man until I get to assess, 2-3 months, and I think that is crucial. There is no fire, and we FB or ex FB girls/women need to be clear headed because of our past history.Providing all is well so far- by about six months the relationship either proceeds or you`ll have thoughts of folding, because you`ll get to know each other better and might think about moving in from then on, but I feel close to a year might be better, slower, less rush, no drama. I think moving in in the first three months is a big mistake. Also, if over a year has passed and there is no wanting to be more together by one/both parties ( where there are no difficult practical obstacles0 I would think the people feeling like that want a part-time relationship involvement. Good for some people, wouldn`t be for me. PS, having been reduced to a Fallback Jelly I`m pleasantly surprised that I acctually know what I want. Yippeeee, Natalie!!
Sushi,
when I took a health class in HS and reading pop psych lit. back then (in Europe) we were told you were supposed to go through about 3 year-long relationships before getting married, i.e., before making a decision about a long-term commitment. I was dubious then and though I had my own mind (ha, ha), but perhaps the one-year mark (plus or minus) is not that far off.
Well, P. maybe the textbooks are right. I think a good relationship is going to flow by its own steam and you won`t have to be yardsticking the progress of it and having WTF moments and so on. You will be in love and having a time of your life. At the same time I don`t see how you would get to know someone well and “flow up” to the moving in decision without forcing things in less than 6 months to a year. And why would you rush into getting married when you are having a perfectly good time being in love and living together. In a good relationship you`ll know there is commitment there, ring on finger or not. I like that expression, no fire.
But, there is a fire, if you want your own kids, late 30s, tick tock
Anon, this is difficult, I feel I shouldn`t comment back because I do have children, and this is one of those things where all the empathy in the world will not make me truly understand how you might feel. The only thing is, if you feel there is a fire you might act in panic.You might end up signing up for stuff you will have no idea was included in the deal and also subject your future children to that deal. I want to say proceed with caution and armed with what Natalie teaches about. I know it`s a bit radical, and we all think happy family with kids and that is dad- inclusive, but it is possible to have children on your own and for that family to be really happy. I have done that, my kids dad died when they were little and it was back breakingly hard at times but I would do it over again. Things just sadly end up being far away from fairy tales but life can be still so good.
@Sushi, that timeline sounds wise.
tired, Tulipa (and all)
everyone has their own timeline but for me a month to three months to move in is too soon. And at my age most people have bought their own houses so it really isn’t that easy in practical terms either.
It’s natural to look for failsafe “rules” when we’ve been hurt but
I’m really hoping that, if I start seeing anyone (after FIVE + years of no dating), it will feel natural and quite easy. I won’t be wondering about timelines, who’s calling who, whether or not he, me or both or us are EU, or how often we see each other, what days of the week, what we do, and who instigates it. Otherwise, I don’t think I can handle the stress. I’ve had to be treated several times in the past for anxiety.
I must have boundaries and pay attention to red flags but I can’t be the Fat Controller. (He’s a character in a UK children’s book who looks after trains). My boundaries are a part of me now, I can trust them to do what they’re supposed to and … relax. It’s important to be rigorous about forming our boundaries. I’ve been going through that too but afterwards I hope we can trust our safety net and have some … fun.
My psychiatrist 20 years ago said I should try to be more spontaneous and less controlling (and control isn’t just about telling people what to do, it can be trying to structure our emotions, actions and environment to avoid risk). Funny. Back to the beginning.
I’m not nervous of being dumped or used anymore. I feel I can deal with it should it happen. What I’m nervous of is the unknown. He will be an entirely whole person with his own thoughts, feelings, desires, emotions, plans. I don’t know what they will be or how we would mesh. We would have to work it out TOGETHER. There’s more accountability and responsibility to be expected from me and from him than there is in rushing headlong into something unsuitable and then just hanging on regardless.
I guess that’s why it’s a DISCOVERY phase. Doh.
don’t want to sound “old-fashioned”, but I think living together is a very big deal. It’s not actually easy just to ‘move out’ if you don’t like it. I have seen many of my friends/family start to date a guy/girl and end up living together without giving it much thought. Take one of my sisters for e.g:
Her marriage breaks down. She starts seeing another guy. He lives in a flat with his pal ( a shared mortgage). The guy ends up staying over at mY sister’s home one night a week, then two nights, then he’s leaving his shirts, underpants, socks and toiletries at her place, then she’s washing his shirts/underpants/socks then he’s staying over five nights a week – all “rent free” (cos he’s ‘just visiting’).
Then he stays over so many nights a week that he just stops going home. Hey Presto! – They are living together! By default. Just because. No marking of the occasion. There was no occasion. It just happened. Eventually they buy another, bigger, house together. Sister sells her home and thousands of pounds of her profit on the sale goes as a down payment to the new home. Guy does not sell his home – he invests nothing on the grounds that his pal still lives in his previous home. Fifteen years later, or so, sis and guy are still “living together” – he still owns his original property. She keeps saying she wants out of the relationship but she now cannot afford to buy her own home again. She cannot ever get back to the position as independent home owner that she was in before she met him.
I have seen this kind of thing lots of times causing all kinds of problems, both practical and emotional. Living together, I think is a big deal/big decision – I see a lot of people dealing with bad situations because they didn’t think moving in together was a big deal. It often happens by default – because someone stayed over so many nights that they just never went home again! We can’t afford to let life just ‘happen to us’ like that.
Fearless, that exactly has happened to me once – the guy in question slowly dragged all his stuff over to my place, visits extended to 7 times a week and then he proposed that he rents his flat out, so HE can have some extra income while trying to muscle in on my business at the same time. Now, I`m not against moving in, quite the opposite but I feel that needs to be a mutual decision. So I packed his stuff for him. It is really important to take your time and get to know them and get to know how YOU feel about them. And I know plenty of women who are stuck in situations they don`t want to be in, where things happened so fast they don`t even know how exactly got there. And how to get out. If you are old fashioned, I`m old fashioned with you.
Fearless
Living together is certainly a big deal. I think too many people (me included) rush into living together without realising if that’s what they really want. I did this about 3 years ago with someone I was in a relationship with. We dated for about 6 months then I moved him into my place because “it felt right, at the time” after 3 months I realised I had made a mistake. The good thing was this relationship ended amicably. I didn’t lose any sleep over that one and I was over it within a week or 2! But it was still too soon. Ultimately I would like to live with someone but at a time where I’m not thinking about timelines, boundaries and red flags.
No not really. Living together does not always mean you have to sell your place. You could rent it out to someone else and move in with your partner.
I personally don’t think it is a big deal. What’s the danger? If it doesn’t work out, you move out. If someone was hesitant to move in with me I’d start to think ‘what’s holding them back?’.
I guess you have to take things into consideration, I would not like to just end up living with someone because they just happened to be there, to me it is a joint decision and may take a number of things into consideration like the finiacial arrangements and where you will live etc etc.
Also if you have a child or children or he does a whole lot of new factors are added to the equation and its not so easy to just move in and out if things don’t work.
Sometimes I do judge my journey by the question can I live with a guy?
This is silly since I have yet to meet a guy who wants to date me and me him, but at the same time I can see issues in my life that still need dealing with that have come from asking myself this question.
Thanks for the food for thought, Tierd.
Probably the most basic thing I need to grasp is that I have a choice I can opt out of relationships.
Okay, but where do you move out to if you’ve rented your apartment? I do not believe it is ever as straight forward and painless as ‘if one (or both) of us doesn’t like it then one of us can move out again’. It’s not like buying a new couch. One of the partners will likely feel inconvenienced and short-changed – at best. If I had lived with every guy I had a relationship with it’d all have been a much bigger mess. I speak for myself when I say it has been messy enough without all of the moving in and moving out to deal with as well.
Though I get that after a decent length of time and once the discovery period has led to ‘love’, then if he is reluctant to commit to sharing a life and a home with you, then that does not bode well at all. Ex EUM comes to mind! He didn’t want the relationship to progress anywhere near that far! And that I was okay with that for so long says a lot about me and my attitude to commitment! Dating is a discovery period and once we’ve discovered he is an arse and an EUM and have made that discovery a thousand times over (a la moi), it’s important (and fortunate) not to have moved him in – but to move him on!
I should have known better at the point when I realized that I was not “allowed” to visit him where he lived (in a house with his mom – at 50; he said his mom lived with him, but probably the same…). That was after several months of an “official” relationship…
I’ve been trying to find the time to join this thread cos it is so spot on regarding what I’m going through and what I have experienced. Somehow, the thread went from dating as a discovery phase to moving in together. The reason I couldn’t find time to join in was because I’m trying to figure out how to get my daughter and me off the lease we signed when she moved from the west coast to the east coast in with the bf after 3 months of dating. In my experience and my 22 year old daughter’s recent experience, it just isn’t about “moving in”. To give her credit, they lasted 3 years and she thrived and almost finished school before thing went tits up. Now, there’s leases. There’s landlords. There’s school loans. There’s shipping her shit from the east coast back to the west coast. That’s if you are only 22 and not married and still have a mother who will be there. For every 10 years from 22, the problems increase like a richter scale when you “move in”. By the time you are 52, I wouldn’t begin to think any random dude would move into my house after 3 months or me into his. Hell at this point, I’m not even going to sleep with any random dude after 3 months. I wouldn’t be on this website if I knew then what I learned from you all. Dear lord, dating really, really is a discovery phase. Moving in after 3 months leaves me shrieking into the night. Fearless, I did move in with every guy I “dated” and then married them. What a mess my life has been because I slept with them too soon, they moved in the next day, and then I discovered it wasn’t going to work. Opps. Seems like my 22 year-old daughter just discovered it.
Memories, runner! Hope you get that lease sorted.
I moved in with the first bf after dating a few months because I went on a trip, he kept my stuff, and when I came back I just went where my stuff was. To be fair, my mother seemed to sniff at the idea that after 3 months of dating, that he might not want to have me move in! She indicated to me that *of course* he should want to have me!
BF #2 moved in after about six weeks, maybe 2 months max, because he suddenly had problems with the landlord or rent or something and I didn’t know I could refuse, much as I wanted to. Then I decided to move overseas with him, after month 3, because I didn’t know what else I would do with myself after grad school. Took me almost 6 years to disentangle myself.
Your post made me think of my friend, who has a daughter who just turned 25. The daughter just graduated, got a job, and is now seeing a handsome young lawyer who “works a lot … but she’s not sure if she can call him her boyfriend.” I said to my friend that I’ve been on BR so long that I can’t imagine staying in a situation where I’m sleeping with someone who I’m not sure is my boyfriend. My friend now wants to point her daughter to BR. Your daughter’s lucky her mom knows what’s what!
Runner No.1
“For every 10 years from 22, the problems increase like a richter scale when you “move in”.”
I think that is true. When you’re young it can just be a series of different flats/apartments that you are sharing with people – you haven’t made a “home” for yourself yet – but when you have spent years of work, effort and money into buying and selling and making a settled home for yourself (and your child perhaps) – with large mortgage payments! – you are not very easily going to have someone just move in (on a trial basis) and you are not very easily going to move out of your own home to live with ‘him’ (on a trial basis).
“Moving in after 3 months leaves me shrieking into the night.”
Me too!
Though I appreciate other people are in different circumstances; they may have less to lose and have no children to consider.
Well, even for me (who’s single, without kids, in her mid-thirties and living in a small appartment), moving is a hassle. I’ve done it a couple of times (even across the ocean and back), but I think the process kept me uncomfortable for about 3 to 6 months every time.
For me it’s probably worse than for others because I have no friends or family to help. I either have to do it all on my own besides my full-time job (packing and unpacking boxes, painting walls, putting shelves up on the walls, do whatever legal work is involved, supervise the movers, get new furniture that fits into the new place if needed and so on) or hire costly help.
Plus, due to my horrible childhood experiences, I need my home as a “safe place” all on my own (my therapist once pointed that out to me, and she is right). Of course, I might qualify as EU because of this. On the other hand, I might be able to let go of this fear if I really trusted somebody and knew him well, but not on some kind of “trial basis”. Never.
Anyway, if any guy urged me to move in with him after 3 months or 6 months to “prove my willingness to commit” or to “try whether we are a match”, I would run away screaming.
I really think 1-3 months is way too soon to be moving in together. Some AC’s don’t even show their true selves in that time frame. How well do you really know someone within 1 month? Seeing how difficult it can be to get away from and get over these guys even when you’re not living together, I can’t imagine how much worse it would be to make these discoveries once you’re already co-habiting.
What’s the rush? You can be committed and spend all kinds of time together without living together–hell, you can see each other every evening if you like. Intimacy and progression can happen while living in separate homes. The first few months should very much be a discovery stage….
Another way to look at it: what would you think if you started dating a man who had a history of moving in with each gf after a month or so of dating? At the very least I would worry that he was a fast forwarder….
Hey all,
I didn’t realize when I posted how many folks have had similar experiences regarding “moving in” before there was a discovery phase so thank you for your comments. I thought it was just me who found most of my stuff at his house or found his stuff at my house and we moved in. It wasn’t until I was 40-something was when I purchased my own house with a hefty mortgage, and got my own stuff that I realized no random dude is moving in here and I’m not moving out of my house cos he’s great in bed, has a great sense of humor, and pops for lobster.
I can totally understand my 22 year old daughter’s perspective, although, she’s experiencing a dose of reality with leases, loans etc. It’s good for her and it’s good for me. I will not be signing the lease for the next guy she decides to move in with after 3 hot months. That’ll be her gig. I’ll get her out from under this one because she was in school (I’m a sucker for helping college students) and it lasted 3 three years and she learned a ton. Most of all, I’ve learned dating is a discovery phase. I’ll be passing this new found knowledge on to my daughter. I can hardly wait to turn her on to BR. I think she’s still thinking she’s at the top of her game and is invincible. Thus, it’s not time yet. But I’m laying the foundation. Hugs to you all. I’m thinking Natalie could do a spin off blog on daughters of FBG mothers. Screaming loudly into the night…moving in after 3 months…yikes. Date them first.
Tired, I think this one depends on a lot of personal preferences. As a disclaimer, I’ve never lived with a guy. (Other than my bulldog.) I haven’t even had a roommate since college!
Anyway, I’m very used to coming home to a quiet house and having everything my way, so to me, moving in would be a HUGE deal. That being said, I think a great relationship can withstand one person being ready to move in and the other saying, “I love you, I’m committed, but I need a little more time before I’m comfortable merging households. Let’s revisit this discussion in two months? (In a good relationhip, their ass will probably still be there in two months haha!)”
Or….maybe the idea of moving in seems momentous to me because I’m not sure when I’d be able to slather myself in self tanner and sit around in old sweatpants eating ice cream? I need to ponder.
@Natasha: Not that I’m an expert (lol), but I guess in a healthy relationship you should be able “to slather myself in self tanner and sit around in old sweatpants eating ice cream” from time to time. Most homes have doors that can be closed, and most guys are occasionally away from home for work/errands/socializing/hobbies.
But maybe that’s not even necessary. Often they might just watch silly action movies or play computer games while you’re doing what “has” to be done (ice cream, self-tanner)…
“…while you’re doing what “has” to be done (ice cream, self-tanner)…”
Amen EllyB haha! Agreed on all counts. Like men don’t have any gross habits 😉
I’m another vote on the old-fashioned side, I’ve moved house a ridiculous number of times during my twenties (eight? I think) and each time there was a definite point where I felt like loading all my stuff into my car and driving it off a cliff and into the sea.
Aside from all the legally stuff and the co-ownership and so on (and I’ve also come across a lot of stories where people have drifted into things that then prove very difficult to get out of), I just value the concept of MY HOME… I like having one and I like it to be MINE, for ME, with MY stuff in it and set up for MY convenience. It’d take a fair level of commitment for me to be prepared to sacrifice that and make room for someone else’s collection of vintage Star Wars figures. In fact, thinking about it, I’m not sure that I’d be prepared to unless I was actually getting married.
Different strokes for different folks etc, but I think that building a home together is something I’d look at doing a LOT further down the line.
I’ll have to agree to disagree.
Yes it isn’t easy. But what is easy in life? Things take effort to do. I want to come home to someone and wake up next to someone. I don’t want to have to be driving around all the time.
I moved house recently. It took three weeks to organise and one day to do the actual move. I’ve moved lots of times.
Relationships are 100:100. I’m happy to make a mistake and have to move out because I can live with that. We’ve all experienced EUMs and ACs causing us huge damage, destroying our hearts and souls … moving in with someone seems like a walk in the park compared to that.
I can only speak for me, but like I said, if they were resisting living together then I’d start to think they were commitment resistant. Sometimes you do have to put money down and run the risk of having some kind of loss as standard. There are no “risk free” investments. No risk, no return!
Valid point t_o_a. I think there is a big difference though in take on that issue depending on how old you are. If you have children, or the man does you have to take into account how having someone new ( to them it`s new FAMILY dynamics) will impact on them. It`s not fair to do the moving in then as an experiment, you need to be positive about the direction the relationship is going in. And home ownership plays a role too. You really don`t want to be losing your heart as well as a secure roof over your head if things go wrong, Fearless described it so well. On the flipside, there is no getting to know anyone as well as when you live together, so getting married before living together- I would definitely not do that either. You are very right about a situation where one party has an allergic reaction to moving in together when it does seem like that would be a natural progression of things- they are the ” I want you to be a part of my life brigade” – usually you`ll find they are the ones who want to dictate what part and how big ect. EU. Then there are people who just like their space, but relationship to me is about ultimately sharing everything, including space and you can have plenty of it living together. Moderation is the key ( I sound like my grandma 🙂 )
as someone who counsels women–my .o2: I tell women to NEVER move in with someone they are not pretty sure they love enough to consider marriage to that person.
Why? Because although legally it is not the same as being married, functionally, it is, without the same level of commitment. If you are going to be dealing with the same social, economic and household issues as a spouse, it’s best if you are in a situation where both of you are thinking about being spouses.
I’m not necessarily pro-marriage but what I have seen in my practice is that in practical terms, a woman living with a man is viewed and treated the same as though she is married to him. It’s different for men who are not regarded as being fully committed. We don’t have to like it but this is generally how it works.
Fearless, that is exactly how it goes. In my twenties I thought living together was no big deal but even if one is renting their place, it is a heavy extraction to pull the ‘living together’ apart. At this point in my life, I feel ‘shacking up’ is a dead end street. My ultimate goal is a loving committed marriage and I just dont see getting there by living with someone first. that old saying ‘why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free’ still holds true even today.
“…but even if one is renting their place, it is a heavy extraction to pull the ‘living together’ apart.”
Absolutely. Where I live, affordable rental are few and far between, and it’s very expensive to move into a place of one’s one (you need to have at least 3 months’ rent in cash available, plus moving expenses).
I would only consider moving in with someone after quite a long time of knowing them.
Living together would be a big deal to me too. In any case, I think, like with marriage, it’s wrong to use it as a litmus test for commitment. Some people (especially women) seem to believe that if he wants to move in, that means he’s commited and going to treat us well. Same with marriage proposals.
I think we all know how wrong that assumption can be. Many women live with their partners and are still being abused and/or being taken advantage of or cheated upon. Same with marriage.
OW situations usually happen with a guy who lives with his wife. Domestic violence usually happens at the couple’s shared home. Some guys move in, start living off the woman’s money AND leave all the housework to her while they spend the nights in bars getting drunk and chatting up other women. Even “ordinary” EU partners sometimes live together and put each other through hell.
Some EUM might shy away from those steps, while for others it’s just were the “fun” starts (especially for some of the worst AC), because once there is a wedding ring/and or a shared address they gain even more control over their victim.
We shouldn’t ask: Does he want to move in? Does he want to marry us?
We should rather wonder: Do we want this? Is it good for us? I think we need to take our time to find the answer. In my book, it’s usually not a good idea to move in/and or to marry during the first year.
To EllyB,
“We should rather wonder: Do we want this? Is it good for us? ”
Excactly! those are the questions i have been asking me before even going to a second date, forst if he is future faking.
I think it’s interesting that a lot of women seem to be more interested in getting a man to provide them with a “deal” or an “agreement” than they are in finding out whether they truly like him.
So much dating advice is centred on getting him to like and commit to you, not focusing on your own feelings and deciding whether he deserves to be in your life!
I also blog sometimes about dating and relationships and have just written a post on this very same subject. Perhaps it’s ok to leave a link seeing as the post is so relevant to what’s written here? Ultimately I think women need to focus more on their own wants and needs, and less on trying to gain male approval. Anyway, if you think my post would be of interest then feel free to come over and have a read:
Hi Gappy
I liked your article,it made me laugh.
That’s exactly where I am now but I had to learn the hard way.
Oh gosh yes. Me too. I think we all did.
Loved your article Gappy, so wize and so funny !
and also, I can`t spell 🙂
Oh thank you, both for reading and for such a nice comment!
Gappy
Love it
I did try following The Rules. What can I say? I was desperate.
Grace there isn’t a woman alive who hasn’t done things she wishes she hadn’t when it comes to relationships. Me included. We’re all getting wiser as we go along. x
Gappy
Loved your article! A friend of mine actually bought me the “Rules Book” I didn’t even finish reading it before I decided that is was a load of rubbish!!
I read the “rules” about 15 years ago and hated the book right from the start. If I wanted somebody to become the closest, most important other person in my life, how could I play cat-and-mouse with him? How could I ever expect to be loved for who I really was if I had to become completely fake in the process?
Unfortunately I didn’t understand why I had so many problems anyway (starting with my fears, anxieties and distrust due to childhood abuse, and then some bad dating experiences), and therefore kept wondering: Maybe such advice (the “rules” and similar BS) is true after all, and my feelings are such a mess only because I can’t bring myself to follow it?
I’m so glad we have websites like BR now to put things into place.
I’m really sorry that you were made to go through those horrible experiences Elly. Anything like that can radically mess with your sense of who you are and your ability to trust others.
I absolutely agree with you that BR is a great site. Out of all the people writing about sex and relationships Natalie consistently speaks sense. I like the way she encourages women to build themselves up and focus on their own self-esteem rather than on how to get men to like them. Her advice is empowering.
Thank you Stephanie! Yeah I’ve got a bit of a bee in my bonnet about that book. I just think it is so disempowering for women to try to follow that sort of advice. And more to the point, who would want the kind of man who responds positively to that BS!?
Unfortunately we all have times in our lives where we feel vulnerable, and so in the fog can end up turning to books like that in the hope that they will “work”. This is a shame I think, because when we are vulnerable we need to be building up our self esteem and doing things to make us feel good about ourselves, not trying to change ourselves and suppress our natural instincts in order to make someone validate us.
Stick with Natalie. I intend to. She tells it like it is.
Now I`m so intrigued, I want to read that book! Love anything with comedy value 🙂
The ex eum I dated actually had a copy of the rules, he told me he always knew when ladies were using ‘the rules’ on him. To him it was all a big game and obviously no one got him to commit.
He lent me his copy of the book, never could work out why.
Sounds like you dodged a bullet there Tulipa – good for you.
Oh Sushi, believe me, it will make you both laugh and cry…
Yes, that was a good article and made me laugh, too! Your key point is so well taken – we are we women so wired to try to “get them to commit” or “adapt to them”??? That leads to no good. It should indeed be about us and our needs. How many men have tried to adapt to US? Or try to get US to commit? Ha ha ha – do they even need to? That’s the sorry commentary.
I’ve been SO guilty of this much of I life -I like him, how can I adapt to keep him around? It’s a wicked game and not a healthy one. I’m also an endorphin machine and need to rein myself in – I’m like the song “love to love ya, baby”. Sometimes we have no idea just what we’re trying to adapt to or who exactly we’re trying to keep around.
Next guy – he should want ME for what I am, and I, him. No contrivances, no mental games.
Thanks Broadsided. I can relate to that idea of attempting to pour yourself into a ‘them’ shaped mould. As you quite rightly say though, no good can come of it. Your plan sounds like a good one.
If you date without a person shaped void, with your eyes and ears open and your feet in reality, it allows you to become aware of who they are – it stops it from being about what they can give to you to ‘make’ you whole. You’ll begin to discover the facts about them (and they you) and part of this is recognising what the facts mean, even if it signals the end. Sometimes in your eagerness to be in a ‘deal’, you forget a few things:
Lately I have been reading about dating how to go about it etc. etc.
I am amazed about the false beliefs I carried around
1. If a man shows interest in me then wow he is the one.
2. If a man shows any interest in me then wow he is here to fix me and make me whole and happy and I will do the same for them.
3. I have absolutely no say in a relationship I cannot dump them I cannot be part of decisions I am to be a doormat. (that is certainly how I acted)
Now if I had dated with my eyes ears open and with my feet firmly planted in reality I would have seen clearly what type of person the ex ac is. I shudder to think that I truly thought he was the one for me.
One more thing I have learnt is to listen to what they say at the beginning of the dating proces. If I had listened to the ex ac and believed him when he said
“You are not the one for me I don’t see us together long term”
I really could have saved myself a lot of misery by choosing to opt out instead of trying so hard in futile behaviour to change his mind.
I certainly forgot a lot of things in my eargerness to sign up for any deal.
One more thing I have learnt is to listen to what they say at the beginning of the dating proces. If I had listened to the ex ac and believed him when he said
“You are not the one for me I don’t see us together long term”
I really could have saved myself a lot of misery by choosing to opt out instead of trying so hard in futile behaviour to change his mind.
So sad Tulipa! I always acted as if I was in a relationship even if we were dating. I’ve made so many mistakes. And I’d use sex as the landmark that we were moving to something more serious. Typical fallback – trap your partner and sex them into commitment. All without any boundaries or deal for protection.
I’d also think that dumping someone was the worst idea ever and that every single one I had to try and make work!
The AC was a total intimacy and contact resister. I hardly ever saw them, I know they were seeing other people for sex, interactions were done over IM or by text and they never really involved me in their life – when I was sitting in the psych’s office I could not believe listening to myself talk about all the IMs and Texts and stolen moments. So much texting! Nobody has ever texted me so much!
The amount of crumb communication was like describing a Nigerian Scam or Russian Mail Order Bride Scams. I kept waiting around, trapped in my feelings, it was just totally insane.
NEVER AGAIN!!
….so much texting and eventually he said: “I am WILLING to be your FRIEND but we CANNOT text so much and you MUST NOT fall in love with me.” Someone, please, comment …. 🙂
P. I can`t comment. I`m speachless…..
Sushi, oh, please… When I read it after myself I could not believe it. But it is true. (And I dare not post the rest of that story, but I am *kind of* at peace over it and over breaking the NC, as well.)
P
The only thing to do with a guy who texts you this message is to completely ignore him for the rest of his life. He would then understand that your ‘return message’ is: “I am NOT willing to be your friend. You will NEVER get another text from me and there’s NO WAY in hell I’d be falling in love with an asshole like you.”
P.
Wow! Just stunned. This guy told you directly: Don’t even expect crumb, lazy communication and if I have nothing to do, I’ll contact you. That’s a friend???
I’ve been reading BR for over a year and now I realize that some EUM/AC’s (including MM’s) tell us out of the starting gate what to expect. The exMM told me “this isn’t fair to you, you deserve better, and I’m being selfish”. Two years and much heartache later, I finally heard him. Listen to what this dude is telling you and run. Don’t even respond. The brass balls of these guys is amazing. They really do think the sun shines out their arse.
There must be a script of pick-up lines AC’s use for FBG’s. This one should be No. 1. I’m starting to see that even dating can be fun if you listen and heed what they say.
Runnergirl et al.,
Yeah, that was pretty radical. He also told me (before the “friend” talk): “I don’t want to hurt you.” Well, he did not, and would have much rather kept him as a friend but when I eventually told him I was not physically attracted (this whole story takes almost 3 years by now) to him, I think he got offended. I just had to post this here, though, bc I assumed someone would appreciate the irony! Finally, after several months after the “friend” talk, I sent a message saying, I would be willing to be your friend, but… and MY conditions. No answer, ha ha, but I feel lighter. Maybe it was petty…
P., I will be able to address this moron once I’ve sat in a darkened room with a cold compress on my forehead and a gin & tonic dangling from my hand for a minimum of twenty minutes.
Ohmygod, I’m so glad you flushed his ass!!
I’m so not on any kind of pedestal given the mistakes I’ve made in the name of, under the pseudonym of, love. But something has happened, because I’m most certainly reading lately thinking: I sure know that feeling, but also: Really? I’m done. Let’s be done. Let’s decide together that there is something higher to live for.
You meet a guy. There’s something…chemistry…immediate attraction, call it what you will…
He sends lazy texts. “Yuck. Not so attractive anymore.”
Or, he calls on a Wednesday and actually asks if he can take you to dinner on Friday. O.K., we might have something here. Something called an actual date. Nothing more. (Haven’t experienced this yet)
After mistakes, and suffering…serious levels of suffering, and counseling, and friends who are wise and holding you up, and this great website, it really should start to become clear. It is for me. If it isn’t yet for you, I’m here for you! If you are near Albany, NY, we’ll meet and hug!
We are worth love. We know what it feels like to give it, and receive it, because we are human. Anything less, we know…we have a feeling. And we need to act on it. This is what I can live with. This is what I cannot.
Natalie, I love every single dating post. You are quite an expert! I’ll be ready soon maybe and it is so helpful to see I’ve got to be conscious and present rather than engaging in a fantasy in my head cos he’s tall, dark, handsome, GOSH, and charming. I know it may be common sense to others but it’s a relief to finally understand that dating is a discovery phase and every date may not lead to a relationship now that I know that’s what I want. Your posts on dating are incredibly inspiring. I can opt out or opt in, assuming I’ve ditched my fantasy goggles and have my self-esteem in tow.
Of course, I like to ruminate and analyze and it all makes perfect sense on cyber-paper. I didn’t have such amazing insights as to relationships before I ended up married 3 times by 40-something. My 50-somethings are going to be very different thanks to BR. I’m owning my power, realizing I’m the expert on me, and I can’t find that handy “Whiff of Interest in Me” contract. No more “he likes me” swooning, knee jittery teenage drama in a parking lot For goodness sake, even my daughter isn’t a teenager anymore.
All sounds right on cyber-paper. I am looking forward to the next steps in reality, assuming I’m de-goggled, got some boundaries, some self-esteem, and some self-respect. I still feel a bit wobbly but I know up from down now.
Natalie and the BR community, you are all are such an inspiration. I don’t feel alone for the first time in my life. Thank you.
Tonight was a difficult one for me..
I am not ready to date,I am not 100% Better,I feel as if somedays I am just ‘stuck’…
I find it even hard to go out of the house at times!!I am sitting crying my eyes out,I have done alot of work,And I know I am getting better,But it seems like I Am unable to stop these feelings of low worth..
As I have said before I was on a dating site,but I cancelled my profile,I was finding myself no interested,and terrified of getting out there…
Well An email came thru today for matches on the site,Guess who was a match???Yup You Guessed it the ‘dissapearer’..New pics,new profile words,aand he even had the Gall to use something I said to him to describe him in his profile…I all but broke down….I knew I should not have looked,it did me no Good,I am so scared that I will be stuck here forever…I dont’ know what to do!!ughhhh…
Oh, brenda, hug!
just to cheer you up, you are not alone. When my ex AC TEXTED he still loved me I went on my disused old profile on a dating site where we met half- hoping that he means it this time and at the same time KNOWING in my gut that I`ll find him there in process of looking for my replacement Fallback Girl. Yep, gut right- again, he was just checking if I`m still an option. His profile photo- him in my bedroom, smiling up at me because I took the photo ! Well, that was nice for me, not. This is what they do, this is what they are like, that`s why we are not with them and God help the next woman who gets hooked on his BS. This episode has put me back tremendously and rattled me to the core. Rammed all the insecurities I`ve ever had down my throat. What we need to do is keep remembering the REALITY of them and that relationship, and putting one foot at the time in front of the next towards ourselves and away from them. Real NC. Word dating gives me anxiety, I associate it with hours online resulting in waste of time dates/interviews with men who lie and dangle the relationship carrot to get shagged, no woman would have them otherwise. So I`ve started concentrating on everything in my life a bit more than before, work, family, friends I neglected, and my health, ruined by stress. I`m unwell and it`s a struggle. So small steps for me, but it feels better, it`s a big change. I think we really need to think of meeting someone as a by-product of living our lives, not a main aim of it. x
Sushi
“His profile photo- him in my bedroom, smiling up at me because I took the photo !”
Pfftt! I can see why that would make your blood boil. Another good example of why it’s best not to look over your shoulder at these “men” – but am feeling very angry on your behalf! Be glad he’s not your problem anymore. Face front! Keep well.
Thank you fearless. I don`t make things easy for myself but it ain`t over till the fat lady sings!
Hey Brenda, you are not alone. I’ve been following your posts and it may be that you are not ready to date yet. Every situation has a different timeline. I hope you aren’t thinking that just cos some random dating site matched you with the disappearer, it means something cosmic. Stay with your feelings and feel them, even the feelings of low self-worth. In my case, the feelings of low self-worth were the worst and the most important to address. Stay with your feelings.
I have to share a back in the day story. As my 3rd marriage was ending back in the early 2000, before online dating was the thing and before every household had three computers per member and before there were IPads and IThises and IThats , we had one shared computer and one email address. Thus, I wasn’t cyber-stalking. The not even an exH yet immediately signed signed up on Match on the shared email address. His profile pics on Match were pics the wedding photographer took at our wedding in Kuai! His profile info contained absolute lies. We weren’t divorced. We hadn’t even filed. I remember some poor women responding to his amazing email “Ur hot” because she was concerned that the “exWife” was still living in “his house”. I wasn’t an ex yet and it was our house. Be careful with online dating. I tried it a few years ago and it seemed to me to be about shagging, at least that was my experience. Since I could shag the guys at work, I didn’t want to pay for it! I haven’t been on an online dating thing for several years so maybe it is different now? Just take it slowly. There’s no fire.
Thank Runnergirl1.
You are bang on Girl..
What a dreadful thing for u at the time…What the F are these guys thinking??
I am not ready to date,this I know.
I was thinking about all the people I have met over the years online dating,and all but mabye 2 are still freinds.
It is hard pressed to actually find 2 people that are happy and are still together that met off a dating site,well atleast from my experience..
This last Guy I met,again just stopped calling,I didnt call him either!!So I know I am getting diff values and morals real quick!When I told him that I am not going to go to bed with him,that was that!!Flush!!!
I noticed the “dissapearer” is on the site for most of the 24 hour day….I figure he is really amping it up now..I call it desperation…Not my worries tho….
Youre awesome Runner!!!
Hi Brenda,
Here’s the thing about disappearer, if he’s online on a dating site 24/7, he ain’t dating! Back in the day when you actually had to show up in a bar, we called it “trolling”. He’s sounds like he’s run out of FBG’s. Maybe cos we are all reading BR and know better now! It’s not your issue.
Regarding “Last Guy”, he doesn’t sound much better. Sounds like if he was only going to get dinner and no shag, he opted out. That’s great info for you.
You already are not stuck. You’ve flushed “Disappearer” (although you may want to stop tracking his online trolling) and you’ve flushed “Last Guy”. Good call. Maybe it’s time to take a breather from guys and the dating scene and focus on Brenda?
What have you done for yourself lately? I went to the gym, took a long steamy shower, including a facial, and now I’m making fish tacos and homemade refried beans. The better care I take of myself, the better care I take of myself. I’m not over the hump yet but I’m starting to see that if I treat myself with respect, I will not tolerate some random dude who treats me as an option while thinking the sun shines out of his arse. I won’t give that random dude the time of day, let alone sign on the dotted line just to sign a deal.
Okay I have to confess, I used one of the pics that the AC took of me in my profile and it was because 1) I look fetching, and 2) he was such an ass that I figured that the least I could do is get the photo he took of me and put it to good use….so call me horrible but it worked and that was one of the photos that my current liked. So far we seem to be doing well, 2 months yesterday yeah:)
I understand though why you would be angry; if I had come across one of the pics I took of him I would be angry too…one of those situations where what is good for the geese is not good for the gander.
dancingqueen…..you were not texting your ex-AC to tell him you loved him while putting up that photo on your profile….thats a tad different. Like – sick. Crummiest of crumbs and a punch in the stomach. Insult after injury. And he continues to text.
Sushi….I have reread your comment 10 times over…You are so right…its really been helping me everyday!!Reality!!!
I`m so glad Brenda. Another very important reality is, they are not worth the amount of pain we are immersing ourselves in – in their honor. Make yourself go out of the house and spend time with people and try writing your thoughts down instead of letting your brain short -circuit, this stress made me ill – don`t do it to yourself. Your self worth will catch up, he`ll always be a cockroach.
Hi Brenda,
NML often talks about the ‘average’, ‘the rule’ or ‘the baseline’.
On average, a fallback will go back or try to go back, by whatever means possible, a few times. I’ve done it too. I’ve done dating profile peeping – yes the AC is still there eating, sleeping, working, breathing, shagging… they haven’t fallen off the face of the Earth and they haven’t come down with Assclown Pox. But that is not my problem – I KNOW and have judged them to be AC and EUM, and that’s all I need to know!
You will go backwards and forwards. On average, most people eventually exit the tunnel . I thought I never ever would exit, and yesterday I had a bad spot, but I’m better again.
Its never going to be anything
Its never going to do anything
Its never going to go anywhere
And that’s all you need to know, that it’s time to move on.
Its really important to have a list of the things they did that were bad and disappointed you so that you have confronting evidence against any nostalgia or halos you want to put around them.
On average, most people have a few relationships before one comes along that is ‘the one’ (how I hate that term). Everything is working as it should – take confidence in the fact that you know the baseline situation is that YOU WILL POP OUT THE OTHER SIDE.
Hugs to you, Brenda. I know how you feel. You can’t check the websites. You just can’t. It sets you back too much. I know how hard it is. It’s like being an alcoholic and you have to keep a bottle of vodka in the house but you’re not allowed to go near it. The computer is so easy in a weak moment. But knowing anything about what is going on in his life, whether it’s good or bad, is depleting you of energy you need for yourself right now. The rest just takes time. I’m off Match for good now. Try to find little ways to make your life about a higher form of love than romantic love. Write a handwritten letter to someone you appreciate. It helps me so much to do something for someone else. I know it sounds cliche, but if we are trying to rebuild ourselves, what better a way to start than the feeling you get knowing you just made someone feel special. You WILL get through this! Another thing that helps me is forgiving myself. When I start to beat on myself for relationship mistakes I’ve made, I say it out loud: I forgive myself. Very healing.
Hey Brenda
Its not easy and we’ve all been through or going through it in some way or another. I used to check the “disappearer’s” FB everyday as soon as I got home from work, sometimes before I had even prepared my dinner. This meant I would go to bed hungry because after seeing how happy he seemed it made me feel sick. As Kmac says don’t check any websites, it will do more harm than any good. Don’t worry, we’ll get there! 🙂
Thanks all you amazing ladies!
Somedays I lose sight of how this Man treated me…I mean my God he showed me exactly who he was quickly…
Why did’nt I just listen to myself,to others..??
I have just recieved Nats Book in the mail,One of the things I have learnt is how quickly I changed…Stressed at work,walking on egg shells,not feeling well…And I honestly thought I was doing this to myself!Was I??Am I to blame for this?
I don’t know…
Anyway today I am still in tears a bit,but nothing like yesterday..Thanks to you all..
Somedays I cant make heads or tails of how I am supposed to feel?
Ladies I have a hard time sometimes on here when I hear”The EUM texted me”or “the AC called me to say he loved me and misses me…
Steph mabye you can relate to what I am saying..
I feel like a fraud for going NC because HE DISSAPEARED!!
I dont feel like I have done anything to be proud of Ladies..
I still feel like I have no closure…Damn the tears are flowing again…Tissue anyone..lol…I will be fine!!
Much love to you all..
If they disappeared, you may experience your imagination running wild in the blank space that creates. Register/tag it as a rejection. Failure to do this will permit them to press the reset button.
This is normal. I felt out of control and totally flabbergasted at them just throwing me away and not caring. They have the loving capacity of A STONE. I wanted to do something but there was NOTHING I could do. It was very hard to take and even harder when I discovered BR and was shocked that all my beliefs about relationships were ALL WRONG. That’s when my entire belief system collapsed.
Almost one year on now, and strangely the moment I stopped chasing the wrong things, was the moment I let the right things catch up with me!
Oh yeah, I told my friends after I spent the night with the AC and then they disappeared. They told me “Don’t give your heart to this assh*le!” – but you know what, I didn’t listen, I thought I could handle it, and I thought they would have no idea because they didn’t know this person personally.
So I made a mistake – so what?
I realise, I WORRY FAR TOO MUCH ABOUT STUFF and if I just worried less guess what – THE SKY DOESN’T FALL IN!!!
Brenda, you are not a fraud. You are doing NC for you, not for him. He rejected you, and now you are rejecting him, it doesn`t matter if he knows. You are standing up for yourself and showing yourself that you are rejecting him and his behaviour. You are hurting because he hurt you, it will take time, but you are respecting yourself. The AC`s that keep texting stuff they don`t mean/can`t follow on just do further damage and cause even more hurt. They make it so difficult to move on. Keep strong.
Brenda please don’t blame yourself. He is an asshole. End of story. People who disappear are assholes. They are cruel. They are immature trash. That is all. This man not approaching you has nothing to do with your worth, it has everything to do with him being a cowardly asshole who is either afraid of your wrath, afraid of your emotional needs which he played havoc with or afraid of….whatever crazy stuff that he is afraid of. The bottom line is that trying to make this about you and not about him is like having dated a schizophrenic and blaming yourself because they heard voices. Repeat after me “He is a damaged asshole and my no contact is my gift to me, which is me showing myself self-esteem, and in doing so I take back my power to do good things for me and my life.”
hugs….
There is friend card
and now there is Forgiveness card… a licence to make mistakes and move on.
I was so harsh on myself and beating myself up. It wasn’t about me…
What a great idea…I have always loved writing!!!
Brenda
I know exactly how you feel, if its any consolation, I have days were I don’t give a shit! But other days where I sit at home and have a little weep and sit on my hands so that I don’t make that call/text to him. When I first found BR everyone was commenting about how long they had been NC. Until I realised I was technically wasn’t doing NC because he done it to ME and to this day I don’t know why. There are so many reasons why he could have done it but because you don’t actually know the reason it plays on your mind. That’s when you start to think its something you done or said etc, etc…
Ladies I have a hard time sometimes on here when I hear”The EUM texted me”or “the AC called me to say he loved me and misses me…
I get that too, I wish he would send me a lazy text so that I could probe him on what went wrong. BUT, again, that is because we seek validation, and don’t stop to think that maybe we don’t even need/want to know the reason/s. Personally I try to have faith that reason will come to light in the right time. 🙂
My AC went NC on me too. And then they phoned me but by then I had found BR and I hung up on them! Still I fell off the wagon the next day by texting them, but I figured they were going to not reply anyway so there was no loss – basically a text saying ‘don’t call me please’.
Why did they go NC? Because I was a threat to them with my constant neediness for a proper relationship that included initmacy, committment, balance etc and I was tired of the friends package.
Even if you comply with the terms and conditions, you can’t win.
It was recently pointed out to me by a real friend, that I am trying to turn my self esteem around while in fact, I am surrounded by assholes who won’t let me! HA! he hit the nail on the head.
I have been reading this blog, going for therapy, meditating etc, to try and feel better about myself, to stop falling for ACs. But I am doing it while surrounded by people who won’t let me; Assholes. It’s like going for picnics only when there is a blizzard. Before I can even talk about dating, I need to get my self esteem back, and that means getting rid of all the assholes (so called friends) around me that erode it and deaden my senses to the point where red flag behavior elicits no reaction from me.
Wizzy,
What would you tell people who, when they hear you are trying to get better and going to a psych, tell you:”pffft… psychologists”? What is it to them? Are they not “allowing” you to even TRY? Why?
I think that in order to get better, I need to surround myself with people who won’t sabotage my efforts to do so. If I am to get into better relationships, it needs to be an all round affair, not just limited to romance. I have wondered about my so called friends for a while actually. I have basically hang out with damaged people (who cope by hurting others) and I have basically made my recovery very difficult, even unlikely. I question my friendships…..a lot.
Wizzy,
I do the same thing. And, in some cases, I just had to develop boundaries or I kept getting hurt and hurt. Finally I thought no friends were better than “friends” that hurt you, as in: “you should be over your divorce by now” or “you should be over your EUM by now”, what’s the big deal? Well, if it is a big deal to me, but not a big deal to them, obviously we have different values.
I agree that taking your phone number is just expressing interest.There is only one thing that it means: at that moment in time, they asked for your number. It doesn’t even matter why they asked for it. Maybe they asked for it because they assume you “expect” them to ask. Maybe they really do want to talk to you again. Maybe they really are some kind of attachment disordered and are already spinning about hooking you in. But it doesn’t really matter why they asked for it.
Stop thinking a person who asks for your number owes you something. They don’t. If they don’t use your number again and they never call you, who cares? Jut forget about it. It was one date, not a marriage proposal.
or maybe they want to sell you something? LOL
Yes. Sell you their assclown wares or offers for investment in dubious ‘no-committment’ deals.
Hi, Tired and company ~
Speaking of “dubious no-commitment deals,” I get guys who give me their business cards and telephone numbers but never ask for *my* number…one gave me his cell number and said, “Keep in touch,” and turned out to be unavailable and an alcoholic.
Why do they do that??
Blueberry girl,
These guys are lazy. It’s easier for them to go around handing out cards than to actually make an effort. I’m of the view that if a man is really interested the least he can do is ask for your number and call you up for a date.
EXACTLY
They didn’t even sign a dating deal.
*FLUSH*
blueberry girl and A,
My last ex texted the mutual friend who’d re-introduced us (we’d been acquaintances 15 years before) later that evening with “If RadioGirl asks for my phone number you can give it to her”. Thirty minutes later, he texted our friend again with “Has RadioGirl asked for my phone number yet?”. Unbelievable! I didn’t ask for his phone number, but sadly I did eventually request to be his friend on FB, my fragile ego having been impressed by his flattering comments when he first saw me. He graciously accepted the friend request, and then proceeded to become an extensive user of FB chat as a means to “get to know” me before our first actual date. I had missed the first enormous red flag that was hoisted within a very short time of us being re-introduced, followed by some more absolute classics. As you say, A, “if a man is really interested the least he can do is ask for your number and call you up for a date”. Quite so – shan’t be in any hurry to make *that* mistake again.
Radio
It really is a cracker, isn’t it – not asking the mutual friend for *your* number but fully expecting that you’d have asked for his; such arrogance really is astonishing. It seems typical of EUM types that they expect the woman to make the first move – they don’t want that responsibility; they want us to have it, so they can fool themselves that we ‘asked for it’ or pursued them, so nothing that happens (to us) next can their fault – they know all they have is shit and heartache to offer a woman so they don’t want to be seen to have offered it – to have asked if you’d like some of that!
I too look back now in bewilderment not so much at the red flags I missed but the blaring sirens that I worked very, very hard to ignore. What the hell I was thinking all that time I cannot now begin to fathom. I was completely and utterly led and guided by my (erroneous and misguided) feelings, by what I wanted to be true and what I wanted to happen, and everything else I deemed to be… well, ultimately irrelevant, really, I suppose. I have always thought that if I feel ‘this strongly’ about a guy then it must be an indication that I should work very hard to make him feel the same way. Crap. Of course. Pfft. I am astonished now that I can see he didn’t want me, and that I put so much emotional effort into a guy who didn’t even want me. For years. And it’s so obvious to me now, after a long time NC, that for all that time – and now – that he could simply take me or leave me, really. I find it very sad (and sometime distressing) that I really was that stupid, to invest so much in someone who showed himself in the end to care almost nothing for me or, more importantly to me, to care nothing for what happened/happens to me. I could have died in a ditch and he wouldn’t have noticed.
Oh yeah, that attached man (who was in his thirties) I got involved with as a teenager did the same. He seriously asked ME why I hadn’t asked our mutual acquaintances for his phone number (even if was him who pursued me right from the start, not the other way round). I mean, WTF? WTF?
Unfortunately, I was too young back then to simply say “BS” with confidence and flush him (also for him being attached of course!). After all, he held a Master’s degree and was working on his PHD while I was still attending high school and struggling with a crazy-making narcissistic mother. But it’s never too late to learn.
But how “heroic” those guys are. Playing games with an abused teenager when they are in their thirties. I mean, please???
My ex AC is trying to play the “friend” card with me. Dangerous and a dead end. Said he wants to see me (if I’m not involved with someone else, but he would understand if I was). How big of him! What he doesn’t understand is that I’m not the same pathetic women he treated like a piece of crap just 7 months ago (thanks to BaggageReclaim). His emails go right into my trash along with any of his other assclown offers. That’s my answer to him. Flush!!
Feeling pretty positive about this topic.
The dating experience with the guy with three kids was fun, engaged, and yet the niggling little things were there, things that before I would have talked myself out of taking seriously. This time I really noticed how certain things made me feel, and instead of asking myself about “Should this thing make me feel this way?” or “Why does this thing make me feel this way?” I just was like, hmm. I feel this way. Crap. I now feel this deal has clauses that I’m uncomfortable with. I won’t be signing. Time to bail.
Then I went on a couple dates with producer guy. I knew I wasn’t into him, even though he didn’t do anything *wrong*. So often I’ve waited for something to be *wrong* before I felt justified in saying no thank you. But you can just say no thank you, the way you say no thank you to pistachio ice cream if you don’t want pistachio.
I’ve noticed that one of my *hooks* has changed. Recently the men I’ve dated have been on about my looks. I feel like I’m living the effing ugly-duckling-swan story, though this swan thing is happening at 38. I no longer feel like I’ve found an oasis in the desert when a guy tells me I’m attractive or behaves like I’m physically attractive. It’s great, and essential for a relationship that they dig me, but I no longer need to stick around to just to investigate this strange and unnatural phenomenon of a man who is attracted to me, as if he’s the Hale-Bopp comet, an eclipse and the northern lights visible all at once.
I remember hearing women say they worried a guy was only into them for their looks and I would think, I wish.
It’s amazing the clarity that comes when once they’ve “confessed” how pretty they find me, I don’t swoon/blush/feel like I’ve won the lottery. I now say thank you, and think, great, yes, this is as it should be if we’re going to date and now I hope you also paid attention to what I was just saying?
Improving my self-esteem to the point where I expect to share attraction has allowed me to expect to share much more than that. Having built up my trust of self allows me to keep my head while figuring out if they are what I’d want to commit to.
Feeling really good about this, am enjoying how the year or so of learning to love myself is beginning to pay off and look forward to whatever new self-discovery is on the horizon.
“Improving my self-esteem to the point where I expect to share attraction has allowed me to expect to share much more than that. Having built up my trust of self allows me to keep my head while figuring out if they are what I’d want to commit to.”
This is just … so eloquent I thought it ought to be repeated for emphasis, for all who might’ve missed it the first time round in the flood of comments.
Kudos. 🙂
A person can be a real friend, at least you think so. My ex was a contractor. He did a helluva lot of work for me at my house and helped me move to my new apartment, continuing to help me decorate it. I thought of him as a really nice guy who was looking out for my best interest. I’d known him 5 years and nothing was ever askew. Then, to my surprise he came on to me hot and heavy. I was totally thrown for a loop, but because I’d been alone so long, I wanted the attention and etc. Once the realtionship escalated from friendship to lover, I learned who he really was. He had been so sweet and incredibly charming (the EUM modus operandi) as a friend but he changed. I had been so blinded by his charm and all he had done for me, which I paid for with money and with my body. My point is that we really have to be more discerning , keep our guards up and pay attention to everything they say and do. There’s a big difference between having a friend and having a lover. He was a totally different person as a lover. My only regret is that he would have not pursued me and kept it professional, because I had to kick him to the curb by going NC, and I had really enjoyed his company. Now, we are not even friends. Never again will I mix business with pleasure. My BAD.
A deal protects you and tells people what to expect and what to deliver, and sets boundaries.
No deal or cr*p deal = you have no boundaries = door wide open for robbers to raid your emotional vault.
I’m not sure if NML does poems as posts, but here’s one I wrote this morning as I contemplated the deal-dodger who, in the end, just wasn’t interested enough. Happy valentines day – please flush people who ‘don’t do deals’.
———
Poem: A Fallback’s Valentine
———
I’m confused.
You blow hot and cold,
and I hardly ever see you.
You text me a lot,
but almost never call.
You’re sleeping with other people.
When I am with you, I feel so alone
and neglected.
I like you a lot, but you hurt me so much.
Farewell.
—————————-
T -o A
Your poem summarises the script for me too. Was feeling a little nostalgic today but, when you boil it down, that’s how it was.
T_O_A
Love the poem, my ex EUM non-relationship in a nutshell. This valentines day I will be celebrating 1 month of NC. Then I will be planning for lots of days/nights out in the near future with people who do actually care and want to spend time with me. Spring can’t come soon enough.
Love yourself this valentines ladies x
Oh yeah, Valentine’s day… Used to make me queasy. I’ve rarely dated during the last ten years, and whenever I did, it ended in an utter mess.
Anyway, whenever that day came up, I thought: Well, I should have somebody for Valentine’s, shouldn’t I? What’s wrong with me? But maybe, just maybe some of the EUs I’m stalking on social networks (or who are stalking me) is going to send me a card, or flowers, or anything?
BS. If I received anything tomorrow (which would be completely out of the blue), I would block that person, because it could only mean somebody was trying to mess with my mind.
I am BLITZING Valentine’s Day this year – I am going to Get It before It Gets Me. I’m baking cupcakes with pink icing for everyone at work and I’ve made my son a nice card (and it IS a Valentine’s Day card, not a Happy Conception-Day card… which just goes to show what can happen when you let it get you down!) 🙂
Instead of it being a Big Fail Day, as it has been for the last four years (one at the unhappy end of a six-year relationship and three spent waiting for Unavailables to ‘realise’), it is going to be Having The Gumption To Wait Day. Or Get Me! I’m Choosy! Day. Or I Only Want To Be With The Right Person At The Right Time, Thanks Day.
Hurrah!
I’m not going to let it get me down – instead I’m going to remember how much pleasanter it is to be me, on my own and on the right track rather than embroiled in an insulting situation that makes me miserable.
yoghurt, Great comment and plan! I, too, plan to blitz this Valentine’s day first and focus on the right track for myself instead of being embroiled in an insulting situation that makes me miserable. I don’t even know if the AC knows I’m NC – again… It has only been a few days but I am well and truly done and will be NC tomorrow and always now. I have also decided to show myself and my heart real love by making tomorrow my quit day for smoking and starting to exercise again. I am taking control of that which I can to stop feeling disempowered. Ironically, one of the carrots that the AC held out was that maybe things would be different if I quit smoking. (I wasn’t a smoker when we met.) I’m flushing him along with the smokes. I will become a fit nonsmoker again for ME!
Valentine’s day is just another big commercial racket. I have no interest in it. I agree that if we have to celebrate anything it’s that we are EUM/AC free! Maybe I’ll make a card that reads “Happy EUM FREE Day! And send it to myself! Too much trouble for me tho’ – but I’d be glad to receive one from someone else… maybe the ex EUM? Ha.
I never once sent him a Valentine’s day card. I did get one from him one year which read ‘Be My Valentine?” inside a big red love heart. I showed it to my pal – she said I should call him up and say ‘okay then.’ We laughed at the thought of what he’d do. I threw the card in the bin. A card from a guy who doesn’t mean a word of it is way worse than getting nothing.
He sent me flowers once, weeks after I hadn’t heard a word from him – he’d done a disappearing act. I had a WTF moment so those lovely blooms went directly into the bin as well. Oh, and he sent me a stuffed toy once – first I’d heard from him after another disappearing act about six weeks earlier. WTF. That ‘thing’ went in the bin too. I binned a lot of stuff. But I was binning the wrong stuff – it was him who should have been binned.
Sorry if off topic – but dating girls, don’t be fooled by cards and toys and flowers as a substitute for him actually extending himself by showing up – in person! And if you find yourself binning his “love” gifts – save yourself more trouble and just bin him!
Haiku
You appeared like my
knight in shining armor so
what the fuck happened?
That is gold!
Haiku (reply)
Using me to feel
what you cannot make yourself
Be gone, demon-spawn!
Love it!
Tonight I was talking to my cousin about boys and socialising and stuff… I looked back over my past relationship history and it’s so long ago now that I almost forgot what my relationships had been like prior to something bad happening that ruined my self esteem significantly… but then I remembered something, I remembered that I used to have a trick that worked for me to keep my relationships happy and secure. It may be unique to my particular personality, or it may be useful to others…
In my happiest relationships I was always doing something- I was always outgoing and chatty and fun and flirty and I was with men who reflected this style of socialising. As a result I always had a mental list in my mind of about 5 different men who I recognised as wanting to go out with me, who I found attractive enough to consider going out with if the relationship I was in was to ever break up. Maybe I am insecure as a person. But regardless, there was something instantly reassuring about frequently running this list in my head. I felt like I was choosing out of all the men I knew and out of a good selection who were all attractive in various ways, to be in the relationship I was in. It probably saved my boyfriend from me getting all insecure and from being clingy or needy. For me, it worked wonders. It was a real cure for desperation. I was only ever friendly towards the ‘options’ men, perhaps a little flirty, but very tame, no crossed wires, just the sort of mutual ego boosting and glances but no hanging out with them exclusively and no leading anyone on, no betraying of my boyfriend. My boyfriend was ‘in on it’ and seemed to really enjoy having a guy approach me, flirt and then for him to come over acting friendly to the guy, give me a quick kiss or proudly say something like “I see you’ve met my gorgeous girlfriend then” which made me feel special, him feel manly and the guy who had spoken to me feel comfortable and able to stick around and chat to either me or my boyfriend.
I know treating someone like an ‘option’ is really really bad. But I think it’s been a good visualisation tool for me to privately use in order for me to feel less needy, less DESPERATE and maintain my own worth, while also boosting the ego of the guys who are ‘options’ but are clearly aware that I am ‘taken’. Flirting makes people feel good.
So thanks for reminding me…
Anon
I too had a bad experience which destroyed my self esteem and I now call it a ” significant experience of my life ” One of the ladies on here said -” Even when someone gives you a box of darkness it can turn into a gift,” and it is very true.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with visualising having options if it helps you feel less needy.You are not doing anything wrong and it works.
The problem I find is the number of dishonest people out there. They’ll say that they want a relationship straight to your face even. But in reality they don’t at all. All they want is something casual. Now I understand why religious people don’t want to have sex before marriage. So many guys just think with their dicks.
fed up
Sad but true.
The last line made me laugh but then made me sad.
Also everyone seems to be a coward now. Why is it so difficult to find someone that doesn’t dump people by text? Why has this become acceptable in this day and age? Finding someone who is actually genuine isn’t easy anymore. And I find if a guy is attractive he always knows he has many options to fallback on= someone who has many FWBs and relationship are never a priority [even if they say they are]. What should I do? Punch below my weight?
Fed up
Punch below your weight ?
Never !
I would rather love myself,it’s never too late for that.
I know how unfair it is when there are fall back options in abundance but that’s all they are.They don’t want to be” the one” they want the best of him and know they will never get that in a real relationship with him, but sadly it stops him being committed to one person.
It is very selfish on their part.
I really liked this post… bottom line
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS UNCONDITIONAL LOVE
Just like ‘casual relationship’ is an oxymoron. Love requires boundaries, commitment and a deal. This means conditions.
tired –
I disagree. There can be, an unconditional love but it has to be for yourself. parents, ideally, show a love to their kids that doesn’t waver even if the kids misbehave, that is there as they teach them boundaries – that love should be unconditional.
I do agree that between ourselves as adults, we have to decide who we’ll let in. But i think that decision is easier to make, and made more wisely, out of an unconditional love for ourselves.
If “unconditional love” is understood as meaning “I will stay with you no matter what you do” – i.e. if the person is mean, criminal, addicted, unavailable, etc. – the only person you should stand by and work with in that condition is yourself.
I have accepted a lot of (emotional) laziness from men in my life. I told myself I couldn’t demand anything different, we’re all human, and who can get up the energy to be all loving and enthusiastic about another person every day?
I know why I thought a degree of disinterest and exasperation from a guy is normal; I grew up around it. But I also realized that I don’t love myself with the energy that I could. I could sit on my couch and tell myself I am beautiful and love myself (I actually DO do this!) til the cows come home, but there is a way in which loving myself means doing my dishes, keeping myself fed healthily, organizing my work so that I meet deadlines without stressing my body and mind too much, saying no to indulgences and distractions, taking myself out to explore new things, etc.
The more energy I put into loving me, the more I can recognize it quickly when someone else is putting words, but isn’t putting energy into a love relationship.
It’s that well of energy inside that I see as unconditional. I will always keep a store of enthusiasm, patience and sacrifice that is For Me. It’s always there, and I can always draw on it to do something loving for myself.
First I would like to Natalie, tired_of_assanova and Magnolia for all their words of wisdom over the last year. I have learned so much about myself and men with all the experiences you all have encountered. I have mad many bad choices in my life with men The last relationship being the hardest and hurt the most. Before reading BR for about a year, I did not know that men, not all of course were emotionally unavailable, blowing hot and cold just staying long enough to get what they needed out of these so called relationships. I did know early on in my last relationship that something didn’t feel right, I fell in love and closed my eyes hoping that one day I would wake up and things would get better over time. I did not have any boundaries for myself or him, I road the gray wave daily. It sucked the life out of me at times and I’m still not sure why stayed for as long as did. That’s where I hold myself accountable. Now its up to me to pick up the pieces in my life, improve my self worth and and make me a better me. I’m the only one who can do it and I’m determined for the first time in my life to make it happen. With all the help from BR and all the beautiful ladies on here, I’m on my way. The one question that I have today, how would these men who are guilty of all that is discussed on BR feel if their daughter’s were treated in the same manner that have treated us, lying, ff, blowing hot and cold and cheating? Something they should think about.
Debbie, you will get there, I’m in the same frame of mind as you…just take baby steps. I totally agree with your final point about their daughters being treated the same way…….if only they stopped to consider this, but lets face it they only think about themselves and no-one else.
Keep facing forward
M x
I guess many of them would blame their daughters. Sad but true.
I really enjoyed all of the feedback on ‘casual relationships” here because I often FELT like we were dating. I just had one of many end recently and am so humiliated. i made a raging fool of myself texting him how angry I was , how bad I was treated etc. I wouldn’t get phone calls returned, he skipped out on seeing me after a recent surgery, and I just couldn’t move on. I was being emotionally demanding and immature.He thinks I am crazy and he is probably right. I do this every time. I never really “dated” anyone.
katy
even if you can’t get your emotions under control (and who can) at the very least don’t light the fires. If necessary, put your phone in a high place which can only be reached by ladder , or take yourself to bed and pull the covers over your head, or watch crappy dvds one after the other to avoid contacting him (I’ve done all this). Of course it would be better to go on healthy walks and eat vegetables and learn a new language but sometimes – you’ve just got to do what you have to do to preserve the outward semblance of dignity even if you feel like crap inside.
Just because you’ve done it before, you don’t have to do it again.
And he’s not you – he doesn’t see you crawling around the floor weeping into the carpet – as far as he’s concerned your silence tells him you’ve got your own life. Yes I know we shouldn’t care what he thinks and one day you won’t. Until then,keep up with NC, keep getting back on the wagon if you fall off, and trust that by the time summer comes this will all just be a bad memory.
Back to the topic – once you’ve discovered that the relationship is casual on his part – bail. Sticking around for an upgrade or telling him how used you feel is only humiliating (as you know). I know it’s really hard because you want them to acknowledge you. I’m going to stick it to you now – he doesn’t care.
Yes, like many people he gets a kick out of being liked. He enjoys charming a person, smiling at them, being nice to them and eliciting a response. I think chimps do it too. It’s a social thing. It doesn’t mean he loves you. I like making babies laugh. I’m good at calming them down when they’re hysterically crying. But does it mean I love them like their mothers do, who get up in the night, who worry about them, who sacrifice their time and often their careers? Not at all.
Everyone, even ACS, likes the “nice” easy stuff, the laughs, the affection. When it hits the fan – where are they then?
You are so spot on Grace, this is the same man that said he would come visit me after surgery, and didn’t , asked me to a swingers club, would only answer the the phone when it suited him , I could go on and on. I felt so rejected that I would try to lower the bar and come back and try not to be so demanding but I never could keep it up for long. I hate that he gets the high ground here, and I look like a crazy person. I just can’t handle the shame so I try to solve it by apologizing and explaining(more shame)
I also wanted to add and get your opinion on that not only does he like being liked, I think he likes when I lose it over him,in a sick way. like its fun to ignore someone, even though he did the right thing by not engaging me.
I also get so upset because sometimes he was so nice, and would call me, buy me gifts, I just hate that i lost my senses,(and I mean bad)
katy
you don’t need my opinion, you already know. And I don’t mean that you know why he does what he does. You know what’s right for you.
But for what it’s worth – blot him from your life. Don’t get stuck in analysis paralysis. He was nice to you sometimes, he called you and bought you gifts – none of that means anything stacked up against what he is as a person and how he treated you on the whole. The AC who punched me, choked me and left me with permanent injuries was nice to me too sometimes.
Sigh.
I tried to comply with the Terms and Conditions. EVEN IF you comply with the terms and conditions you CANNOT win. You will suffer emotional anorexia with these guys.
I struggle to understand fallback logic. Feeling pain? Run towards the source and collect more – when we should be running in the OPPOSITE direction.
I even got bent into apologies for walking out on their sorry ass. I thought I was being mean. Their crumbs were being waaaay overvalued, I didn’t listen, sailed past every red flag in the book, waited and hoped, got high on relationship crack and illusions, it was just so all consuming. All the while they were sleeping with other people, which I ignored because I wanted them to choose me.
Don’t apologies for ripping up what amounts to a one sided deal. Boundary: I will not be ‘friends’ with someone I’ve dated and it hasn’t worked out.
katy, Please don’t beat yourself up. I don’t know if this applies in your case but I think when people are dating/spending time together – both men and women – they act the way they think they should and say the appropriate things on that basis, too, and may even really feel “relationship” emotions in the moment, especially when sex is involved. He may very well have actually given you the information you wanted to believe. The key going forward is to recognize that just because you are doing/feeling/saying relationship things doesn’t make it a relationship unless both parties have signed on.
I think it applies, we had started out as “playmates” and as time went on he would correct that and say “we are more than that” so I would get upset when he would ask me to be with another man, or not show up to see my after my surgery and let him have it via texts. He recently told me that he thinks I “have a mental problem” and I am scared its true. I did behave badly(rapid fire angry texts) but am stuck on how to dig myself out of the fact that even a guy like this thinks I am crazy
katy
Your mental problem is getting involved with him in the first place, further exacerbated by making his despicable behaviour all about you.
I’m not judging. My mental problem began with my mother screaming at us and beating us up, and me wondering what I could do to make her happy. I must have been about five years old when I started that doomed mission.
Abort.
@Grace: Oh yeah, childhood is usually the key. I’d like to add that even some parents tell their kids they are “crazy”. My mother told me all the time and in all seriousness I was “seriously mentally ill”, without ever taking me to a doctor to check (I guess they wouldn’t have found anything anyway). It took me more than three decades to figure out my mother had the mental health problem (personality disorder), and not I!
Katy, maybe there is a similar pattern of abuse in your own life. If you can’t figure it all out on your own, I recommend seing a therapist. I did it, and it helped me tremendously.
Spot on.
Same story! Except it was my Father that did the beating up!
katy: I know it’s hard to see the truth, but you seem by no means crazy to me. If anyone has a serious mental health problem, it’s him, NOT YOU.
Have you ever read the book “The Gaslight Effect”? If not, I’d highly recommend it. Might be an eye-opener for you.
Katy,
Don’t let him be the judge of you, he’s not a psychiatrist.
When he says something like that, he isn’t really giving it any thought, he isn’t actually thinking about you as a person, because he doesn’t care about you. It’s something rude he’s saying off the top off his head, because you are making demands on him which he doesn’t like.
Please don’t give him the opportunity to say any more of these malicious, spiteful put-downs.
If you do really fear for your mental health, then see your doctor.
I have to say though, casual doesn’t work for me either, it makes me miserable, it makes me feel anxious and sad, it certainly doesn’t bring out the best in me. Its because having sex with someone is putting my trust in them, and making myself vulnerable, and if they don’t then behave in a loving way it is very painful. That’s just how it is, for me, and I think for many women it is the same. You might find that all you need to return to sanity is to cut contact with this AC.
Katy
“*even* a guy like this thinks I am crazy”
what’s with the *even*?
Guy’s like this always tell women they are ‘crazy’. For what are obvious reasons, I hope.
Why would you put any weight on what this manipulative, using, abusing f*cker has to say about *you*! This is a guy who asks you to entertain him by you having sex with other men. And you care what he thinks? As Grace would say – nuke him!
Thank you everyone, it is helping me alot to get feedback. I tried casual so many times, and where one wasn’t filling the bill, I would just add another, and it just felt worse and worse. I appreciate the support!
“Guys like this always tell women they are ‘crazy’. ”
This is so true. It’s a quick way for the guy to shift blame, and hold himself unaccountable for his own crazy-making behavior.
Now that I’m out in the dating realm, when a suitor mentions one (or more!) “psycho exes”, the red flags go UP.
katy, don’t let that knucklehead guy mess with your sense of self. YOU get to decide who you are, not him.
love is a hard business you have to know how to run
I wanted to correct my last post after seeing it. In the beginning of my post. “First I would like to THANK Natalie, tired_of_assanova and Magnolia”
And yes Miranda, they do only think of themselves (sad) Baby steps will soon turn into our big steps.
Deb
Ahhh, valentines day is coming up. I hope we have at least another Natalie post sometime in the next 24 hours to get through this misery of all miseries…
Agreed.
Valentine’s Day is a crock. Don’t worry about it. It’s really forced and awful, even for a lot of happy couples.
Me, too! I have great plans for MYSELF but it would be nice to read some no BS perspective on the crappy thoughts it’s hard to avoid on a day dedicated to celebrating love and romance. BTW, I’m not even going to say what I had or feel was love nor that I believe that what others are acknowledging with chocolate and flowers always is even in marriages.
I’m trying not to think about who the AC is either screwing or screwing over. LOL I was once the woman who really was just looking for fun and romance without commitment and I do think that’s the way you get the best the AC’s have to offer. I was who I was and I’m sorry for the men I hurt along the way but I’m not that woman anymore which is why I can now be hurt.
I really can’t recall a great Valentine’s Day even though I think my amazing child was conceived on one of them… That really was a greatest post Valentine’s gift I gave myself!
First Valentine’s Day with the recently ex AC was 6 years ago, I cooked a beautiful meal in a fabulous outfit that included a short skirt and thigh highs and he spent the evening after dinner on the phone arguing with his soon to be ex wife in my spare bedroom with the door closed. I was so pissed, I ruined a beautiful burgundy velvet halter top by doing the dishes while still wearing it. And, now, I wouldn’t look good in it anymore anyway and I blame him as much as the ensuing years. Another good reminder of why I need to do what I’m committed to doing now! Last year, he uncharacteristically texted “Be My Valentine” while he was on a ski trip when we were on a break (except for the constant contact and sex!) and we both knew he had already had a new gf. UGH!!! They are not worth our dignity or even a minute of our time. Let’s stay strong ladies and have a beautiful Valentine’s Day being happy for our freedom from each of our sources of heartache.
Search the website for “Valentine’s” and you can read V Day posts from past years, like this one:
https://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/valentines-day-notes-on-love-from-me-to-you/
I wish I had done that! I am actually slowly becoming aware of some relationship incompatibilities with my bf of 3 yrs now that thr honeymoon phase is over. I only just discovered that he is unable to support me emotionally when I am stressed. He already knew I was going through a rough time at work…but when I told him I needed to cancel plans to hang out with him and our friends because work was draining me a lot, he reacted surprisingly selfishly! He all but implied that I was flaking out on our friends and that I should be going out even though I was not up to it at the time!
Natalie and all,
For a long time I have felt like I’ve gone crazy. It’s always been really hard for me to deal with breakups. I’m never the one that does the “breaking up.” I’ve been cheated on by men who I honestly did trust 100% with no red flags. Every relationship I’m in, I am supportive, loyal, genuine… without any understanding how the man can hurt me the way he did/does.
The most recent breakup has been extremely difficult. Everything was moving on really nicely. We almost hit the three month mark (I know, short, but I don’t have to explain.) I felt like I was falling in love. Suddenly, he backed off. Said he needed space, wasn’t ready for a relationship, and that he felt like he was falling in love too but it made him feel uncertain and vulnerable. Now we have retreated into the “dating” category but neither of us are dating anyone else. I’m not sure how much I can take of the unknown… can’t take any more days of crying.
Stumbling across your blog has really helped. It couldn’t have come during a better time.
After seeing all of my friends married, with children, happy… life has become really hard for me. At 32, I feel like a genuine failure. I’m not sure if I’ll ever find the one, like I’m damaged goods. After being heartbroken so many times and cried so may tears, I just don’t know if it’s possible for me.
But then what? What if I don’t get married, have a family of my own… become a failure at what I want more than anything? I just don’t know. I can’t bear the thought, it makes me even more crazy.
Just had to vent. Thanks to anyone who listened. 🙁
Anne – I can totally relate to how you feel. I too feel the pressure of wanting a family and children. It is by no means too late for you at 32. My sister will be 34 soon and just got married; she would have been about your age when she met someone. She often fretted having passed 30 without having found a husband.
It IS important to live your life knowing that finding a man isn’t everything. First, if the man never materializes, you need to be giving yourself as much love (ie. built up as much of a full life) as possible. Second, if the man does materialize, you need a happy full life to be a whole partner in a healthy relationship.
Either way, the way forward is the same. Love yourself, honor your feelings, grieve what you have to, love yourself, have fun.
Unfortunately, if the person you’re dating has told you he’s “not ready for a relationship,” I’d listen hard and cut him loose. You deserve a situation without the hesitation, retreating, and crying. It is out there for you.
Don’t sign up to the ‘friends package deal’!
That’ll lock you into unavailability.
You really have to wonder what someone is avoiding when they stop at 99.99% of the way to a relationship but flake out at the thought of going official/serious.
Also reminds me how I was fed a whole heap of BS when I started showing signs of wanting something more serious.
i hear you, big style – thats how i feel…
i feel like i have such a long string of short shit relationships. 3 month mark? lucky you… im lucky to get 2 months in the bag haha.
i feel like im getting like a name for myself, like all my friends are sniggering behind my back because as fast as im telling them i’v met someone new im suddenly a few weeks later telling them how much of a prat hes turned into…. sigh
happy singles awareness day xx <3
Dear Anne,
May I suggest reading all or most of the posts on this site and NMLs YouTube channel videos. With my AC, the reality was we were never going to go anywhere and it had fallen back to ‘the friends package’. BIG DISAPPOINTMENT. In fact, nothing actually changed, its just the official title of my fantasy relationship status was altered. Everything else remained the same.
Now Anne, I know someone who got a husband, got married, had children, ran a business – perfect life eh?
Of course behind closed doors he was beating her, choking her, trying to smother her with pillows, trying to flush her head down the toilet (yes really), gave her a black eye, deprived her of money, used her as free labour, a cook, a cleaner, nursemaid, ironer … need I go on?
Oh yeah, and this went on for TWENTY YEARS before they split up. And it didn’t stop there – threats, stalking, nuisance calls all followed. Not so perfect now eh? THERE WERE NO PRIZES OR AWARDS GIVEN OUT AT THE END EITHER FOR PUTTING UP WITH THIS.
Social conditioning has a lot of EXTERNAL expectations placed on us – pressure to sign into a deal. Don’t sign into a sh*t deal. You only have ONE LIFE and you don’t get that time back.
There are 8 BILLION people on the planet. Take back your power and hit *FLUSH* Don’t worry about being ‘wrong’ – there are multiple right answers, you can afford to make a mistake and flush a good guy from time to time.
Anne..
Hugs to you first and foremost…
I know that crying,unsure feeling all to well…
They come on so strong,You feel like yes this time I have sealed the Deal……Then Bang,they drop the bomb..
Anne This Man is not ready,he told you as much,Mine did too many times over,statments like”I am not good at relationships”Or “I thought I could do this” or “Women are all the same”and it goes on and on,but you get the gist…
My EUM Narc,told me that he only wanted to date me as well,But when 5 months came on,I started asking questions,like do You love me?,when he answered NO,I should have ran for the hills…But nope I stayed for more crying,anxiety,waiting by the phone like a teenager,Morphing into someone for him,making his “Limited time”my time…
And then,he up and dissaperared,Yup no call,no “Talk”no nothing..
I was all but devastated,I never really thought in a million years that he would have been that much of a Coward,but thats exactly what he is…
I did try once to breakup with him,But he could not BELIEVE I would actually do that to him,I should have ran at that time…
I am telling you Anne,Please cut this Man off,It is only a matter of time before he tells you he cant do the dating thing either…Oh and the words”I think I am falling in love with you”Are utter bullshit…If he loved you sooooooooooooooomuch,he would hold you tight and protect him Gem in case someone else might find it……
Anne,
Don’t accept this man’s downgrade from relationship to ‘dating’. No good can come of it. I know it’s difficult because you have feelings for him and it seems he does for you as well, but he needs to either opt in or opt out. You have a life to live, and this man needs to realize that time waits for no one–waiting around for him to decide whether or not he wants you is degrading. You can tell him that you can’t accept his backtracking, and that if he wants a relationship with you he can give you a call, at which point you can see how you feel and whether you still want him.
32 is young! You’re not a failure. It’s such a common trap to feel envious of those who we think have something we want, but not everyone who is married is married to the right person or in a healthy relationship. Better that it take a bit longer and that you find the right guy rather than settle.
I got downgraded to “friend” for an entire month. No sleeping together either! I honestly started to wonder if it were possible to have a relationship without sex! Yes really! Stupid of me, I even thought ‘maybe I should flush their ass’ but I decided friend would be OK and innocuous enough. And what if they changed their mind?
Except, it got MORE intense and they blew hot when they got me down to friend status. Texting continued! Soon I was on the drama rollercoaster – oh they are coming to see me (rollercoaster climaxing) oh they are not around (rollercoaster falling), oh I wonder if they will contact me this weekend, oh I wonder if I can get them back (rollercoaster going around the twist).
I practically began to die inside.
FLUSH NOW.
If you stay, you will put yourself in the front line of excruciating unimaginable pain AND they will have licence to wash their hands and absolve themselves 100% of the responsibility too because ‘there hasn’t been a discussion for a committed relationship’ – assclowns will REMIND YOU that they haven’t signed any deal and you gave them the benefits for free anyway just because they turn up and breathe on you and thus can practically get away with murder and screwing up your life 100% guilt free.
Don’t let that be you. It can take many months to a year to undo the damage. NC all the way!
Oh Tired…up until the last few months, I have been living that exact rollercoaster ride! Funny thing is, he even used the word rollercoaster when we first reconnected after 10-ish years to describe his current life. I knew I’ve always hated rollercoasters! Why didn’t I listen? Haven’t heard from him in almost 3 weeks & I’m really going to try hard not to respond to him if I ever do again. Thanks for putting in writing what I’ve been trying to come to terms with!
I once kept saying that I wanted to get OFF the online dating merry go round. Of course all the people I was chatting to all agreed, blah blah.
Until I realised that *I* could jump off and end it myself.
How’s that for a revelation!
Getting off those sites is one of the best things I did. Funny thing the AC once recommended it… lol. They’re still on there!!
Anne, you said that this guy you are seeing is not seeing anyone else. I believe 100% that you are deluding yourself into thinking that because it lessens the hurt that you feel. The bottom line, I do believe is that if a guy pulls back and goes cold, or blows hot and cold: 1) he is not in love with us, 2) he does not love us, 3) he is SEEING someone else; there is no way that these guys nowadays are not going to be having sex with you and also not having sex with someone else.
I don’t mean to burst your balloon, just being up-front with what I think is going on. Frankly, I think it’s high time that you dumped his manipulate donkey’s rear end and hightailed it out of there!
Good luck to you…and take comfort with Natalie’s advice. She is the 3G lady: a GEM, a GENIUS and GREAT! 🙂
Anne,
I would have to agree that there is a very high probability that that is the case. When I look back to all the relationships I have had where I was dumped, I always knew for a fact there was someone else (because they told me), or else I had strong suspicions based on good evidence. (i.e. they pop up 1 minute later with either a new person or an ex they’ve reunited with). And that was in the days before internet, etc when it was more difficult to meet new people.
(To my shame, I have to admit when I did the dumping it was for the same reason. I was inclined to collect Fallback guys.)
It’s an unpleasant thought, but it actually can be helpful, because it makes it easier to maintain NC when you know or suspect this to be the case.
Hello,
I know I am finally over my ex when I got an email from him asking if i had a date for Valentines Day, because if I don’t, he’d love to take me out for dinner. I didn’t even feel hooked, besides I did have a date for Valentines day and I was happy to tell him that. Sweet Victory! It felt good to be able to do that with no emotional hooks. I’m over him. We went out for a year and it took me 4 months to get over him.
I invested a lot of time in a person that seemd to be amzaing and with whom I had lots of fun , playing along the game of hot and cold and never totally inside a relationship. 2 and a half months ago I realised that I would never get the relatonhsip i wanted and worse, I realised that maybe I did not even want to have a relationship with a person that did not treat me in a respectful manner. This realization of course made me feel awfully, because I got to pin down my own weakness to recognise and/or commit to a healthy person, as I thought I had always wanted to do.
After mourning my non-relationship while resisting the occasional care/ opportunity to go out with my non- boyfriend, I bumped into a friend of a friend who asked me out.
We went on a date, had casual discussions and it was fun. He seems interesting and I have decided to stick to the plan of dating as a discovery phase. He asked me out on a second date, suggesting that we go a a part of one of his friends.
But the truth is, I feel very sctressed, hurt, tired , self-consious, afriaid that I might do something embarass my friends (which I know is not very logical). I feel still a bit tied to the past choices and I am stressed that I wont be able to make healthy ones. And I do want them, now that I understand what to look for and what is important. Do you think it is right for me and the other person to slowly put myself out there and test the waters of healthier actions? Any advice would be very helpful. I am so scared.
I’d suggest searching NMLs posts about being ready to date etc. There’s a search box in the top right of the blog.
Anne- I’m 25 and I can 110% relate to you.
Hello, I don’t know if I did the right thing.
So I’ve been dating this guy for about 4 months now, we live 2 hours apart so we don’t see each other as often as we’d like. We’ve been talking even longer (met online)…we talk every day. Well it was my birthday recently and he came to see me, met my family, friends, etc. It was a wonderful time. But nothing is exclusive and it kills me to even think he’s dating other people. So I brought it up, I told him I am only interested in seeing him and that I’ve been on other dates and I’m not interested in anyone else. He told me he found that endearing and that dating is fun. So I laid it out for him plain as day. I asked him if he still wanted to date others and that when we first spoke about “open relationships” I told him I wasn’t okay with that.
We basically have a relationship without the exclusivity and I want that in a relationship.
I probably scared him away, this only happened recently and through text…there really was no other way to go about it, the convo just kind of led to that. I’m so sad because I can’t stay in something if he doesn’t want something exclusive and I don’t mean it has to be today, but for him to even want it is important. I don’t want to settle for him to be on his rotation or whatever he is doing. But he has sent so many mixed messages from the things he says to the things he does. Why would he want to date around if he came to party, met everyone, stayed, talk every day, etc. etc.
I’m in over my head and I’m sad. By saying what I said I’m scared to have ruined our “relationship” but I feel there was no other way to put it. I can hope for the best that he will respond favorably, but there’s no changing what he wants. I know I’m good enough, but damn…all these months and he still wants to date around? The first time he told me, we weren’t that close…but now does he really still want to explore his options? I don’t get it.
I don’t want to be heart broken, but I already am if I stay.
Did I do right?
Renee
He told you he didn’t want to date exclusively. You chose to continue and now you are surprised that he doesn’t want to date exclusively. You haven’t ruined the relationship, you’ve ruined the pretence that you didn’t want more.
A man (or woman) can be affectionate, talk to you, meet your friends, even your family, go on holiday with you, even flippin MARRY you and have children with you and not be serious about you.
It’s up to you. Does talking at a party mean more to you than fidelity? He’s already broken your heart. Deal with that, not why he does it or how he does it. But in the words of my friend, when I was asking WHY the MM was jerking me around – IT’S BECAUSE HE CAN. You let him, he’s gonna do it. It’s in his nature. Snake is a snake is a snake, no matter how good you are.
Exactly.
And, even if you marry them and they don’t cheat physically, they could (still) cheat emotionally, or with their eyes (wandering)!
Hello Renee.
I’ve been up your ‘relationship street’. It sounds like you are in a fantasy relationship with Mr Ambivalent flip-flapper alert.
Your story is rather similar my story! I got managed down to “friend” and then “friend with side benefits” (read: chit chat partner, teddy bear, ego stroke receptacle, passing time candidate).
Yes you did scare him away, because you want committment and he wants to shag around, mess with people and flip flap. But don’t feel bad – you NEED to scare this assclown off! Go NC. If you don’t there is a high chance you will finish up where I went – dropped in the front line of unimaginably excruciating pain, identity and belief system total collapse, suddenly snapping into full awake consciousness in a huge rage at 2 am in the mornings, work suffering, 8 + months at the psychologist, mind f*cked. And after all that, I still didn’t ‘win’ them or get any prizes or awards for my efforts!
Why did they go to the party – because they could. There is little or no logic to how these people operate, so don’t bother. They don’t even know what they are doing, so how can you?
My AC happily sat through group dinner- like a boyfriend – but the entire time they referred to me as friend. Everyone else at the table had their boyfriend/girlfriend. It was SO infuriating! They also lived an hour or so away and were always dropping references to ‘more time’, ‘I will have more time’, the third time I heard this ‘Ah, I will have more time when X’ I think I almost exploded!
If they were that interested, they would have signed a decent deal – they didn’t. If they were that interested, they would have committed – they didn’t. If they were that interested, they would have left you in NO DOUBT of their interest and moved house. They are managing you and your expectations down! DO NOT CHASE THIS PERSON. CUT ALL CONTACT. Save yourself and *FLUSH*
Don’t be like me who blew up their brain!
Trust me, this has the hallmarks of fantasy relationship and you can be assured there’s a narcissistic harem of other people they’re shagging around with. YOU CANNOT WIN. RUN!!
You did the right thing, Renee. Four months and not only is the relationship not progressing, but he doesn’t even want to be exclusive? Be proud of yourself for having this conversation with him rather than waiting 6 months or a year to do so and finding yourself in the exact same situation. As you said, you can’t make him change or want something other than what he wants. I know it can be hard not to take it personally, but he was this way before he met you and he will be this way after you end it. Regardless of what he may have said or done to indicate that he likes you, you need to listen to what he’s telling you: he does not want an exclusive relationship. You already gave it time and nothing changed, so please don’t waste any more of your life waiting around for this guy.
So I’ve been dating this guy for about 4 months now, we live 2 hours apart so we don’t see each other as often as we’d like. We’ve been talking even longer (met online)…we talk every day.
The reason why you’re talking every day over IM/phone is because he’s not there every day. Something is really really wrong if this is the case after 4 months.
I’ve noticed there are a lot of people who are walking, talking facebook and twitter feeds. Maybe this is a new phenomenon – almost the entire relationship or whatever it is, is conducted in absentia they are physically not there.
The touch test – are you able to physically touch them at lest 3 times a week on different days?
Tired,
“Maybe this is a new phenomenon – almost the entire relationship or whatever it is, is conducted in absentia they are physically not there.”
I think this is a good point. I think your touch test three times a week on different days is a good measure of what’s really going on in some of these relationships. If he’s not there, then what is the point? I can be alone all the time while I’m single, I don’t expect to be alone all the time while in a relationship. Done that. There is no point. It was rubbish.
Renee
if you want exclusive and he doesn’t want to be exclusive then what are you going to do? Accept it or flush him? Those are your choices. Don’t bother trying to analyse why he wants to see other people. He just does. He doesn’t want what you want. What else do you need to know. It doesn’t have to be right now? Why does it not have to be right now? Right now is as good a time as any! In fact it’s the optimum time. Why would you want to be seeing/sleeping with a man who is seeing/sleeping with other women while you wait to see if you’re getting an upgrade at some point in the future? Once you settle for that crap, then you have settled for it and agreed to the terms. You will NOT get an upgrade once you agreed on the sale of you at the bargain basement price. if you really thought you were good enough – you’d be telling him to take a hike.
He said that you wanting exclusivity is “endearing” – WTF does that mean? Such an EU thing to say. He means that this is not what he wants – and endearing has nothing to do with that. That he wants to play around with you and anyone else that takes his fancy is NOT very endearing to you – don’t you think?! And perhaps you should have told him that. I would suggest you stop pumping up this man’s ego at the dire expense of your own and start letting him now that you *are* worth more – by NOT accepting his unfavourable terms. Flush him. He’s trouble – he’s just another EU, flip-flapping, mind-bending, crazy making fecker.
He said that you wanting exclusivity is “endearing” – WTF does that mean? Such an EU thing to say.
Fearless, yes!
The AC would always insert these quite perplexing statements in conversation. Now I am reminded!
Tired
yes, they have this odd way of skirting the issue with a faux compliment! I was reminded too! I can’t begin to count the times my ex EUM avoided actually dealing with my issue or answering a straight question with some irrelevant ‘avoidance tactic’ remark. When you know the EUM lingo it all becomes clear as day. Flush!
This is another article that I agree with 100%! If I could agree with it more than 100%, I would, but that’s just arithmetically not possible. 🙂 I am DEFINITELY “guilty” of trying to close the relationship “deal” before the dating “discovery phase” is over. It happens to me when the “magic feeling” starts and I start to feel attracted to the guy; this is during the period when he is doing his con seduction routine, acting lovingly and affectionately, and pretending to be a good guy, that I start to want to make sure that we are in a “relationship” before getting into anything physical, even “making out.”
Clearly, I have made a HUGE mistake in doing this. I believe that that is my pattern because I want to feel that I am not immoral in proceeding to semi-sexual and fully-sexual activity with the guy before being in a relationship. I have realized that that is how I RATIONALIZE being a “good girl,” and thus, after waiting 6 weeks to 2 months, I can move forward to engaging in sexual intimacy. Needless to say, this has NOT worked out for me – all I have ended up with is huge disappointment and tremendous heart ache. SO…having read this article, and having little by little come to the conclusion over the last 3 years that I went into sexuality prematurely because I should still have been in the discovery phase, I will NEVER do that again, IF I ever even date again. I took myself off the dating “market” a little over 3 years ago and frankly, with the very few good guys out there, especially those who look clean, well-groomed, don’t have body odor, wear something more than jeans and a rumpled shirt that looks as if it came out of the dirty clothes basket, and who are aware of something called a razor blade – I’m not really that interested in dating again, other than for the SELF-GRATIFICATION of having a guy interested in me, asking me out, and feeling that “I still have it.” Unless God LITERALLY drops a really GOOD guy in my life, I’m not too interested in looking for one…so there is not much of a likelihood that I would be trying to seal any deal before its time. 🙂
One of my partners who treated me really well slept with me on the first night. The AC I knew for almost a year chatting and friends stuff before we slept together.
I think the witholding sex thing is just to keep your judgement clear and that so you don’t fall in love with their bits rather than the person they are.
All good points – excellent article. I have run into this in dating – guys who think that just because I said yes to a first or second date, I’m automatically in a relationship with them and we’re a couple….I don’t get it! I’m not some Russian bride you ordered off the internet! Now, in the past I’m sure I’d have been the type to cling onto a guy for dear life too if I was to fancy them from the get go. Horrible. I’ve learned A LOT in the past couple years about me and dating and men and dating.
I got the instant girlfriend treatment from every guy I went out with from online dating. I think it’s their gimmick to get sex. They think if the girl is stupid enough to think that this guy (that they don’t even know) is calling them their “girlfriend” then that equals “relationship” which equals “safe to have sex with them”. NOT!! This happened to me on every 2nd date I went on with 6 different guys and I thought I had picked the least likely to be a man-whore on the site. No more internet dates for me, I think 6 was a representive sample of what’s going on there (at least in my age bracket of 50-ish). But I was smart enough to flush when they did that…although I sure fell for that line of BS from the guy I knew from the past who re-appeared in my life with his future faking assclown routine. Turns out it was the same sh*t, different outfit LOL.
EllieMae,
yes, they have to do that to have a remote chance of getting a shag. I had a male friend who was EU for several reasons. He was on dating sites for years, and was only looking for sex, fully aware of the fact that he was EU. I asked him why hang around “plain” dating sites, are there none for sex only. He said yes, but the competition on those sites from young, good looking men makes it impossible for him. I don`t doubt that there are some men on there genuinly after a relationship ( I think some of them let themselves be carried off into the EUMland by the seemingly never ending supply of women, so they go ga-ga in a sweetshop), but there are many, many more who are not, but are prepared to put in a good, or even excellent performance for the cause, it`s best to be aware.
“many people will talk the talk and appear to be walking the walk in the run up to closing and confirming the deal, but when it comes to putting their proverbial money where their mouth is, they disappear, raise ‘sudden’ objections’, or withdraw what they’ve been offering and leave you with an inferior replacement deal.”
I had to come back to this because I believe this is the first I’ve ever “heard” you say this on your blog. But that is precisely what happens to me about 95% of the time. They seem so great in the beginning, say they’ll do all these things, make promises, I’m excited then slowly (or sometimes rapidly)…..they back off, disappear or start offering me something else totally different. I’m in that situation now with someone who offered so much stuff in the beginning and now it’s down to not living up to their promises. Do I have a sign on my forehead that reads: Please, all scaredy pants men who are afraid to fulfill what you say you will APPLY HERE! I’m an idiot and I’ll take your crumbs!
That is how it feels.
I’ve been seeing a guy for almost a couple months, and it’s the longest I’ve been seeing someone for a long time since I am somewhat commitment-resistant. I’ve tried to work out those issues and become emotionally available to attract someone emotionally available, since I consider myself a “serial dater,” and I think it’s time to be in a real relationship.
This guy is wonderful. He hasn’t yet “signed the dotted line,” but in all honesty, I’m not sure if I’m ready to yet either. It’s the discovery phase. I’ve been going on dates with other guys, and whereas I’m not positive that he’s not, I have a very strong feeling that he isn’t. I’m actually currently debating whether to stop seeing other people completely… but it’s hard, being scared that things will go south somehow with him.
I feel like before committing, I want there to be a reasonable level of trust, and things are progressing slowly for us (though they are progressing). We’re becoming increasingly intimate, he never makes me feel like I’m trying to drag him into anything, he treats me well and calls when he says he will, and he is everything I wanted in a guy.
I discovered this blog as soon as I started dating him, because in my own fear of how things were going and “not wanting to screw this one up” since I really like him, I wanted to check out some dating advice. Honestly, the blog has me rethinking and over-analyzing everything — I’m looking for one little thing he does wrong to call the whole thing off! Is he an assclown? Is he EU?
Any little thing he does now, like mentioning how he wants to do something with me in the future, or texting me instead of calling (I would do the same thing if I was with people, which he always is, but he does call other times), I start thinking, oh my gosh, he’s future-faking, or he’s a live twitter feed who doesn’t really want human contact (even though he makes time to see me twice a week despite living almost an hour away) etc. etc.
This guy is probably one of the best guys I’ve ever met and this blog has me reconsidering everything. Everything is open to interpretation, and if I want to see the worst, I think I probably will.
How about an entry that describes good guys, and what they do when they like you, want to treat you well, and commit to you? Something more similar to “Hallmarks of a Good Relationship.” What’s the time frame for an exclusive relationship or commitment? Is there one?
I met a guy just before Valentine’s day that seemed to have all of the major things I was looking for. He treated me like a queen and we had great conversations. I broke all of my dating “rules” because I decided to go with the flow. He wanted to be exclusive after the 2nd date and I went along with it, breaking other dates I had lined up, and committed without really getting to know him because it felt right. Things happened pretty fast as far as the little dating milestones – cooking him dinner for the first time, double-dating with my friends, etc. Then I realized, as nice as he was, he was not a healthy, whole person – something I tend to take for granted because I feel emotionally healthy. Even though things felt right, I should have taken my time before committing. We broke up after only a few weeks. I really rushed through the discovery phase and I should not have done that. Lesson learned.